Patterico's Pontifications

9/25/2016

Debate Prep: Who’s Even More Dishonest Than Donald Trump?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:08 pm



The answer is, of course, Big Media fact checkers.

A piece in POLITICO Magazine purports to warn you about “lies” that may be told by Trump and Clinton during tomorrow’s debate. (The link is to a cached version of the piece; I don’t link POLITICO directly, and haven’t for years, because they are bullies.) The problem is that two of the three “lies” they attribute to Trump are not lies at all, but are literally true. Start with this claim:

Trump’s claim: “Fifty-eight percent of African American youth are not working.”

The truth: Trump is way off on the data about black youth.

Trump has been pretty up front with African Americans, urging them to drop their longtime loyalty to the Democratic Party because that support has amounted to little in the way of economic success. “What the hell do you have to lose?” he asked during a visit to central Michigan last month.

To bring his point home, one of Trump’s favorite riffs is about just how few young African Americans have jobs right now. For example, during a stop in High Point, North Carolina, last week, Trump said that “58 percent of African American youth are not working.”

Trump should know better than to keep using that line. He’s been flogged repeatedly by fact checkers for similar statements.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the latest data actually finds that the unemployment rate for African Americans 16-to-24 years old is 15.7 percent.

The Trump campaign maintains that it gets to the 58 percent figure by counting up both the young people who are trying to find jobs but can’t get them and also the ones who are “not in the labor force.” But that’s a pretty misleading way of sizing up the situation. Under his definition, Trump is counting busy students as unemployed, whether or not they’re looking for a job.

The bottom line here is that Trump said “58 percent of African American youth are not working” and the fact-checkers admit it’s true . . . but call it a “lie” because they don’t like the implications of that true statement.

Trump has indeed stated in the past that 58% of black youth are “unemployed,” which is inaccurate. But his current statement deals with the percentage of black youths not working, and that figure is accurate.

What’s more, Trump has a point. The piece claims that counting students among those not “working” is misleading. But even the dishonest fact-checkers at the Washington Post have to admit that, when you take students out of the equation, black youths are employed at a far lower rate than white youths:

If Trump really is interested in the rate of disengagement among black youth, there is an academically accepted measure he can use. It’s called NEET, which stands for “Neither Employed nor in Education or Training.” This measure factors out students altogether, and measures the share of disconnected youth aged 16 to 24.

Pew Research Center’s Drew DeSilver, who has written about youth unemployment and NEETs, calculated a 2015 NEET rate among black youth 16 to 24 at 20.9 percent of the total civilian non-institutional population, compared with 14.7 percent among white youth of the same age range.

So it turns out that the share of unemployed black youths who aren’t students or in training is over 140% the share of white youths in the same situation (20.9% versus 14.7%). Sounds like Trump might have something of a point there! But you won’t read that in POLITICO Magazine . . .

Let’s move on to POLITICO’s second Trump “lie”:

Trump’s claim: Clinton supports “open borders” and a “550 percent increase” in Syrian refugees

The truth: Trump is wrong about Clinton’s plans for immigration and refugees.

. . . .

Clinton’s plan for handling the Syrian refugee crisis keeps getting similarly bungled by Trump. Last week provided the latest instance of this, when Trump issued a statement vowing to oppose Clinton’s “550 percent increase in the number of refugees from the conflict in Syria.”

The truth is, there’s no basis in that figure. Trump has taken a plan Clinton issued where she said she would welcome 55,000 additional refugees from the war-torn country over the course of a single year, and extrapolated it out at the same rate of expansion for the duration of a four-year term. On top of that, Trump’s assumption implies Clinton would continue with the Obama administration’s latest budget proposal for fiscal year 2017, where the U.S. would accept 100,000 refugees. Clinton, in fact, has said no such thing.

This is double-talk. Trump didn’t say anything about a four-year term or extrapolating anything. He said Hillary Clinton is calling for a “550 percent increase in the number of refugees from the conflict in Syria.” We know this is true because — God forgive me for citing these people — even lefty PolitiFact admits it:

During a Sept. 20 appearance on CBS’ Face the Nation, Clinton was asked if President Barack Obama’s plan to increase the number allowed into the United States to 10,000 was enough. (The United States had accepted about 2,000 in 2015.)

“Look, we’re facing the worst refugee crisis since the end of World War II, and I think the United States has to do more, and I would like to see us move from what is a good start with 10,000 to 65,000 and begin immediately to put into place the mechanisms for vetting the people that we would take in,” Clinton said. . . . A jump to 65,000 would be a 550 percent increase. . . . Clinton has, in fact, said that in response to the refugee crisis she would raise Obama’s limit of 10,000 to 65,000. That’s 550 percent more . . .

Once again, POLITICO’s Trump “lie” is . . . true.

POLITICO’s third Trump lie is: “I was totally against the war in Iraq.” And . . . that is a lie. Because he totally wasn’t.

Hey, Donald Trump is a giant liar. That doesn’t mean that we have to pretend every Big Media claim about him is true.

[Cross-posted at RedState.]

118 Responses to “Debate Prep: Who’s Even More Dishonest Than Donald Trump?”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (bcf524)

  2. i love this post more than beans and fishsticks (except for that last little part)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  3. Not sure it reflects well on those with zero interest in the Truth to assign the label of ‘liar’.

    DNF (755a85)

  4. The New York Times has a list of 31 “whoppers” delivered by Donald Trump during one week (Thursday September 115 through Wednesday, September 21, 2016 on page 26 today

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/24/us/elections/donald-trump-statements.html?_r=0

    And I believe all these examples come from the New York Times. The New York Times sounds like it is claiming it did it itself, and says also they eliminated hyperbole or humor, or statements delivered partly for effect and what it says “could generously be called rounding errors” and items in that category it says run into the dozens.

    It looks like the New York Times succumbed to the notion it ought to take a position on Trump’s statements. Like what some Op-Ed columnists have been writing:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/opinion/sunday/how-to-cover-a-charlatan-like-trump.html?_r=0

    Something like this belongs on the editorial or Op-ed page or at least labeled as commentary.

    The word “lie” does not appear in the article and I couldn’t find it that way and had to back to the printed newspaper. The word “whoppers” and untruths” “exaggerations” and “lies” do appear. But searching foe Trump and lies on the New York Times web page didn’t find this article.

    I’m telling you the locus classicus is the New York Times.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  5. The Trump campaign responded but, the New York Times declares “in none of the following instances did the responses ssupport his assertions.” (which could mean maybe they did drop one or more)

    Some of the remaining 31 are NOT real lies, and in at least two cases it is the New York Times that is wrong or it makes Trump more wrong tahn it is.

    In some of the others, the wrongness of what Trump said is off his main point.

    Eaxmple number 21: Trump says Mrs. Clinton destroyed 13 smartphones with a hammer:

    NYT says: Only two were destroyed with a hammer. I suppose the New York times could also have said, if it wanetd to, that a Hillary aide destroyed them, and she didn’t do it herself.

    Example number 13; Trump says Kasich won only one primary, and that not by much – that was Ohio.

    NYT says: Kasich won Ohio by 11% – that means he crushed Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  6. Black youth not working is Number 26.

    It may be misleading but it is not a lie. It has bene poiinted out that asimilar figure for white teenagers is 49%. The official unemployment rate for bkack youth was 20.6% And they are right – that’s even counting people attending high school.

    Syrian refugees is number 24, except that what the New York Times said Trump said is that Hillary Clinton’s plan would rbing in 620,000 refugees and cost 4400 billion.

    NYT:” All that Hillary Clinton has endorsed is 65,000 this year, on top of other admissions.

    The New York Times has several different kinds of statements that Trump has made about the war with Iraq. It seems like he is tewlling a tangled tale.

    2. “I was against going into the war in Iraq.”
    Speech in Florida, Sept. 19.

    This is not getting any truer with repetition. He never publicly expressed opposition to the war before it began, and he made supportive remarks to Howard Stern.

    3. He said any supportive comments he made about the Iraq war came “long before” the war began.
    Fox News interview, Sept. 18.

    He expressed support for the war in September 2002, when Congress was debating whether to authorize military action.

    4.He said he had publicly opposed the Iraq war in an Esquire interview “pretty quickly after the war started.”
    Fox News interview, Sept. 18.

    The Esquire interview appeared in the August 2004 edition, 17 months after the war began.

    5. Before the Iraq invasion, he said, he had told the Fox News anchor Neil Cavuto something “pretty close” to: “Don’t go in, and don’t make the mistake of going in.”
    Fox News interview, Sept. 18.

    Not remotely close. He told Mr. Cavuto that President George W. Bush had to take decisive action.

    6. He said that when Howard Stern asked him about Iraq in 2002, it was “the first time the word Iraq was ever mentioned to me.”
    Fox News interview, Sept. 18.

    Mr. Trump expressed alarm about Saddam Hussein and the situation in Iraq in 2000 in his own book.

    That last one might be true.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  7. @5 The New York Times has a list of 31 “whoppers” delivered by Donald Trump during one week ‘

    It’s no secret he likes fast food.

    ‘Hold the pickles; hold the lettuce, special orders don’t upset us…’ -Burger King commercial jingle

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  8. Debate Prep: Who’s Even More Dishonest Than Donald Trump?

    More honest question, multiple choice answers:

    Why does a former First Lady, former U.S. Senator and ex-Sec. of State, experienced at the highest levels of government for 30 years, need to be ‘preparing’ and ‘studying’ so ‘hard’ and so ‘secretively’ so much?

    [ ] stroke

    [ ] dementia

    [ ] memory loss

    [ ] vision issues

    [ ] neurological problem

    [ ] all of the above

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  9. DCSCA @10. No they all prepare. They say that Obama lost his first debate against Romney in 2011 because he didn’t prepare enough. I think he lost that debate (n the economy) because he was so wrong.

    Trump doesn’t like practice sessions. What’s happening now is that some of his people, like Giuliani are feeding him possible questions.

    Trump also just can’t read (dull and turgid, and besides the point?) briefing books. It may written above his level of knowledge too, in which case it would be waste of time to attempt to study them.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  10. Bob23,

    Your comment actually reminds me a lot of one I might come across at Kos.

    You didn’t read the post. You read who wrote it and decided to lash out. Patterico just defended something Trump said as truthful against someone who said he was lying.

    And it’s true, a large number of folks from every demographic are not working. This is a problem. There’s simply less being done and made in our society than there could be, as our society falls deeper into debt. So many in politics think there’s something acceptable about not seeking work and it’s one of the many bizarre things I hope future generations rake our era over the coals for.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  11. During CNN’s “Inside Politics,” Jeff Zeleny told the panel that it’s “so long Ohio” for Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

    “It’s been 20 days since Hillary Clinton stepped foot into this classic battleground state, and she’s not expected to visit it again in the month of September,” Zeleny reported. “That is a nod to the political reality they’re facing her campaign. She is struggling mightily among white voters.”

    DNF (755a85)

  12. About half of the New York Times list of 31 are real lies, or opinions impossile for anyone to hold.

    Some may just be mistakes, or guesses he didn’t check. For example, Trump has said (numbers 14 and 15) taht lester Holt is a Democrata and that all the moderators are Democrats.

    NYT: In actuality, Lester Holt is registered Republican, and the only Democrat among tehm is …Chris Wallace, of Fox News. (somehow I think the fact that it works out that way is not an accident.)

    “Lie” number 31 is Trump claiming Bernie Sanders fell victim to a rigged system with the superdelegates.

    NYT: Sanders lost the pleghed delegates, too. (that is, he lost even without the superdelegates.)

    Now you could say the system discouraged challengers. And that Biden maybe didn’t run for that reason.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  13. Not quote alie:

    11. Mr. Trump said that after The Times published an article scrutinizing his relationships with women, “All the women came out and said they think Donald Trump is terrific.”
    Fox News interview, Sept. 18.

    Only one woman who was quoted in the article came to his defense after its publication.

    And I think one or two others. The one who did wa sfeatured the most.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  14. Maudie is so weak, her spinners are already insisting Holt help her on fact checking.

    “Nearer My God to Thee”– hymn played by deck orchestra as RMS Titanic sank, 1912.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. Could be a lie:

    “Unlike other people” who only raise money for themselves during presidential campaigns, he also raises money for the Republican Party.

    Fox News interview, Sept. 15.

    Every presidential nominee forms a joint fund-raising agreement to share money with his or her national party.

    ot taht it’s not true – but it’s not different tahn otehr candidates. There may be apoint at which this began.

    Anotehr kind of funny lie: that may not be a lie:

    “Do people notice Hillary is copying my airplane rallies — she puts the plane behind her like I have been doing from the beginning.”

    Twitter, Sept. 20.

    He did not invent the tarmac rally or the campaign-plane backdrop.

    OK, he did not invent it, but maybe she is still copying him in this election.

    More likely to be an error than a lie:

    29
    Ford plans to cut American jobs by relocating small-car production to Mexico, and may move all production outside the United States.
    Fox News interview and New Hampshire speech, Sept. 15.

    Mark Fields, Ford’s chief executive, said it was not cutting American jobs.

    NYT links to:

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/15/news/companies/donald-trump-ford-ceo-mark-fields/

    Moving production, yes. Laying off workers, no.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  16. Arut 7 (and similar things elsewhere)

    A Reuters poll estimates that 22% of US voters are still undecided as to who (if anyone) they will support come election day. This is a very high percentage, double the proportion of undecided voters at the same point of the 2012 election .

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  17. Links selected by Rich Galen:

    http://www.mullings.com/dr_09-25-16.htm

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  18. In 1984 in the first debate, Reagan’s head was so stuffed with memorized facts he lost the ability to think.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  19. They say debates don’t usually change votes. But they may accelerate a trend. Reagan was ruising anyway in 1980.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  20. If Hillary concedes Ohio, she’s conceding the election is at least close.

    If it splits right down the middle there’s an opening for Mcmullin if he at least carries Utah. But that would be something.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  21. I did read the article… damning with faint praise at best.

    Patterico is a partisan Trump hater, this much is clear.

    Bob23

    What exactly did you think the word ‘partisan’ means?

    And if Patterico is a Trump hater and he sides with Trump on an issue, why are you condemning him?

    Is it not enough to be honest? One must love Trump or what they say should be bashed?

    Trying to follow a Trump fan’s reasoning can be fascinating.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  22. “As most of you know, I had been endorsing Hillary Clinton for president, for my personal safety, because I live in California. It isn’t safe to be a Trump supporter where I live. And it’s bad for business too. But recently I switched my endorsement to Trump, and I owe you an explanation. So here it goes.

    1. Things I Don’t Know: There are many things I don’t know. For example, I don’t know the best way to defeat ISIS. Neither do you. I don’t know the best way to negotiate trade policies. Neither do you. I don’t know the best tax policy to lift all boats. Neither do you. My opinion on abortion is that men should follow the lead of women on that topic because doing so produces the most credible laws. So on most political topics, I don’t know enough to make a decision. Neither do you, but you probably think you do.

    Given the uncertainty about each candidate – at least in my own mind – I have been saying I am not smart enough to know who would be the best president. That neutrality changed when Clinton proposed raising estate taxes. I understand that issue and I view it as robbery by government.

    I’ll say more about that, plus some other issues I do understand, below.

    2. Confiscation of Property: Clinton proposed a new top Estate Tax of 65% on people with net worth over $500 million. Her website goes to great length to obscure the actual policy details, including the fact that taxes would increase on lower value estates as well. See the total lack of transparency here, where the text simply refers to going back to 2009 rates. It is clear that the intent of the page is to mislead, not inform.

    So don’t fall for the claim that Clinton has plenty of policy details on her website. She does, but it is organized to mislead, not to inform. That’s far worse than having no details.

    The bottom line is that under Clinton’s plan, estate taxes would be higher for anyone with estates over $5 million(ish). I call this a confiscation tax because income taxes have already been paid on this money. In my case, a dollar I earn today will be taxed at about 50% by various government entities, collectively. With Clinton’s plan, my remaining 50 cents will be taxed again at 50% when I die. So the government would take 75% of my earnings from now on.

    Yes, I can do clever things with trusts to avoid estate taxes. But that is just welfare for lawyers. If the impact of the estate tax is nothing but higher fees for my attorney, and hassle for me, that isn’t good news either.

    You can argue whether an estate tax is fair or unfair, but fairness is an argument for idiots and children. Fairness isn’t an objective quality of the universe. I oppose the estate tax because I was born to modest means and worked 7-days a week for most of my life to be in my current position. (I’m working today, Sunday, as per usual.) And I don’t want to give 75% of my earnings to the government. (Would you?)

    3. Party or Wake: It seems to me that Trump supporters are planning for the world’s biggest party on election night whereas Clinton supporters seem to be preparing for a funeral. I want to be invited to the event that doesn’t involve crying and moving to Canada. (This issue isn’t my biggest reason.)

    4. Clinton’s Health: To my untrained eyes and ears, Hillary Clinton doesn’t look sufficiently healthy – mentally or otherwise – to be leading the country. If you disagree, take a look at the now-famous “Why aren’t I 50 points ahead” video clip. Likewise, Bill Clinton seems to be in bad shape too, and Hillary wouldn’t be much use to the country if she is taking care of a dying husband on the side.

    5. Pacing and Leading: Trump always takes the extreme position on matters of safety and security for the country, even if those positions are unconstitutional, impractical, evil, or something that the military would refuse to do. Normal people see this as a dangerous situation. Trained persuaders like me see this as something called pacing and leading. Trump “paces” the public – meaning he matches them in their emotional state, and then some. He does that with his extreme responses on immigration, fighting ISIS, stop-and-frisk, etc. Once Trump has established himself as the biggest bad-ass on the topic, he is free to “lead,” which we see him do by softening his deportation stand, limiting his stop-and-frisk comment to Chicago, reversing his first answer on penalties for abortion, and so on. If you are not trained in persuasion, Trump look scary. If you understand pacing and leading, you might see him as the safest candidate who has ever gotten this close to the presidency. That’s how I see him.

    So when Clinton supporters ask me how I could support a “fascist,” the answer is that he isn’t one. Clinton’s team, with the help of Godzilla, have effectively persuaded the public to see Trump as scary. The persuasion works because Trump’s “pacing” system is not obvious to the public. They see his “first offers” as evidence of evil. They are not. They are technique.

    And being chummy with Putin is more likely to keep us safe, whether you find that distasteful or not. Clinton wants to insult Putin into doing what we want. That approach seems dangerous as hell to me.

    6. Persuasion: Economies are driven by psychology. If you expect things to go well tomorrow, you invest today, which causes things to go well tomorrow, as long as others are doing the same. The best kind of president for managing the psychology of citizens – and therefore the economy – is a trained persuader. You can call that persuader a con man, a snake oil salesman, a carnival barker, or full of shit. It’s all persuasion. And Trump simply does it better than I have ever seen anyone do it.

    The battle with ISIS is also a persuasion problem. The entire purpose of military action against ISIS is to persuade them to stop, not to kill every single one of them. We need military-grade persuasion to get at the root of the problem. Trump understands persuasion, so he is likely to put more emphasis in that area.

    Most of the job of president is persuasion. Presidents don’t need to understand policy minutia. They need to listen to experts and then help sell the best expert solutions to the public. Trump sells better than anyone you have ever seen, even if you haven’t personally bought into him yet. You can’t deny his persuasion talents that have gotten him this far.

    In summary, I don’t understand the policy details and implications of most of either Trump’s or Clinton’s proposed ideas. Neither do you. But I do understand persuasion. I also understand when the government is planning to confiscate the majority of my assets. And I can also distinguish between a deeply unhealthy person and a healthy person, even though I have no medical training. (So can you.)”

    — Scott Adams

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  23. “As most of you know, I had been endorsing Hillary Clinton for president, for my personal safety, because I live in California. It isn’t safe to be a Trump supporter where I live. And it’s bad for business too. But recently I switched my endorsement to Trump, and I owe you an explanation. So here it goes.

    1. Things I Don’t Know: There are many things I don’t know. For example, I don’t know the best way to defeat ISIS. Neither do you. I don’t know the best way to negotiate trade policies. Neither do you. I don’t know the best tax policy to lift all boats. Neither do you. My opinion on abortion is that men should follow the lead of women on that topic because doing so produces the most credible laws. So on most political topics, I don’t know enough to make a decision. Neither do you, but you probably think you do.

    Given the uncertainty about each candidate – at least in my own mind – I have been saying I am not smart enough to know who would be the best president. That neutrality changed when Clinton proposed raising estate taxes. I understand that issue and I view it as robbery by government.

    I’ll say more about that, plus some other issues I do understand, below.

    2. Confiscation of Property: Clinton proposed a new top Estate Tax of 65% on people with net worth over $500 million. Her website goes to great length to obscure the actual policy details, including the fact that taxes would increase on lower value estates as well. See the total lack of transparency here, where the text simply refers to going back to 2009 rates. It is clear that the intent of the page is to mislead, not inform.

    So don’t fall for the claim that Clinton has plenty of policy details on her website. She does, but it is organized to mislead, not to inform. That’s far worse than having no details.

    The bottom line is that under Clinton’s plan, estate taxes would be higher for anyone with estates over $5 million(ish). I call this a confiscation tax because income taxes have already been paid on this money. In my case, a dollar I earn today will be taxed at about 50% by various government entities, collectively. With Clinton’s plan, my remaining 50 cents will be taxed again at 50% when I die. So the government would take 75% of my earnings from now on.

    Yes, I can do clever things with trusts to avoid estate taxes. But that is just welfare for lawyers. If the impact of the estate tax is nothing but higher fees for my attorney, and hassle for me, that isn’t good news either.

    You can argue whether an estate tax is fair or unfair, but fairness is an argument for idiots and children. Fairness isn’t an objective quality of the universe. I oppose the estate tax because I was born to modest means and worked 7-days a week for most of my life to be in my current position. (I’m working today, Sunday, as per usual.) And I don’t want to give 75% of my earnings to the government. (Would you?)

    3. Party or Wake: It seems to me that Trump supporters are planning for the world’s biggest party on election night whereas Clinton supporters seem to be preparing for a funeral. I want to be invited to the event that doesn’t involve crying and moving to Canada. (This issue isn’t my biggest reason.)

    4. Clinton’s Health: To my untrained eyes and ears, Hillary Clinton doesn’t look sufficiently healthy – mentally or otherwise – to be leading the country. If you disagree, take a look at the now-famous “Why aren’t I 50 points ahead” video clip. Likewise, Bill Clinton seems to be in bad shape too, and Hillary wouldn’t be much use to the country if she is taking care of a dying husband on the side.

    5. Pacing and Leading: Trump always takes the extreme position on matters of safety and security for the country, even if those positions are unconstitutional, impractical, evil, or something that the military would refuse to do. Normal people see this as a dangerous situation. Trained persuaders like me see this as something called pacing and leading. Trump “paces” the public – meaning he matches them in their emotional state, and then some. He does that with his extreme responses on immigration, fighting ISIS, stop-and-frisk, etc. Once Trump has established himself as the biggest bad-ass on the topic, he is free to “lead,” which we see him do by softening his deportation stand, limiting his stop-and-frisk comment to Chicago, reversing his first answer on penalties for abortion, and so on. If you are not trained in persuasion, Trump look scary. If you understand pacing and leading, you might see him as the safest candidate who has ever gotten this close to the presidency. That’s how I see him.

    So when Clinton supporters ask me how I could support a “fascist,” the answer is that he isn’t one. Clinton’s team, with the help of Godzilla, have effectively persuaded the public to see Trump as scary. The persuasion works because Trump’s “pacing” system is not obvious to the public. They see his “first offers” as evidence of evil. They are not. They are technique.

    And being chummy with Putin is more likely to keep us safe, whether you find that distasteful or not. Clinton wants to insult Putin into doing what we want. That approach seems dangerous as hell to me.

    6. Persuasion: Economies are driven by psychology. If you expect things to go well tomorrow, you invest today, which causes things to go well tomorrow, as long as others are doing the same. The best kind of president for managing the psychology of citizens – and therefore the economy – is a trained persuader. You can call that persuader a con man, a snake oil salesman, a carnival barker, or full of sh*t. It’s all persuasion. And Trump simply does it better than I have ever seen anyone do it.

    The battle with ISIS is also a persuasion problem. The entire purpose of military action against ISIS is to persuade them to stop, not to kill every single one of them. We need military-grade persuasion to get at the root of the problem. Trump understands persuasion, so he is likely to put more emphasis in that area.

    Most of the job of president is persuasion. Presidents don’t need to understand policy minutia. They need to listen to experts and then help sell the best expert solutions to the public. Trump sells better than anyone you have ever seen, even if you haven’t personally bought into him yet. You can’t deny his persuasion talents that have gotten him this far.

    In summary, I don’t understand the policy details and implications of most of either Trump’s or Clinton’s proposed ideas. Neither do you. But I do understand persuasion. I also understand when the government is planning to confiscate the majority of my assets. And I can also distinguish between a deeply unhealthy person and a healthy person, even though I have no medical training. (So can you.)”

    — Scott Adams

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  24. Bob,

    Everyone knows Trump is a serial liar and a horrible man, but the press lied about employment statistics to pretend something Trump was accurate about is not accurate. This is interesting because employment statistics are one of the most abused stats.

    You said ‘it’s an old lawyer trick’. What do you mean? You say his piece is not honest. What do you mean?

    I keep asking you and you keep not saying. You’re just rambling, Trump fan.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  25. whether you pick Mr. Trump or you decide we’re better off with diseased sickly geriatric b*tch puddin

    this is between you and your God

    me and Jesus are going with Mr. Trump though

    i just wanted you to know for so you can make an informed choice

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  26. Hang in there, Bob. You’ll eventually learn that not living up to exacting standards and qualifications are a running joke around here. But lay off the Chief.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  27. Debate Prep: Who’s Even More Dishonest…

    Pfft. All politicians are dishonest with voters; recent example: Ted Cruz.

    JR is just beating them at their own game.

    “Never tell the truth when a good lie’ll do.”– JR Ewing, [Larry Hagman] ‘Dallas’ CBS-TV, 1978-1991.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. me and Jesus are going with Mr. Trump though

    i just wanted you to know for so you can make an informed choice

    happyfeet

    Didn’t Trump brag that he has never asked God for forgiveness because he’s never needed to? The guy whose Taj Mahal Casino pioneered having an on site Strip Club by contracting for one via Bob Gans, the brothel owning human trafficker? I’m not sure Jesus really wants you speaking for him. However, if Jesus walked the earth today he would definitely seek out people like Trump to minister to, much as he ministered to tax collectors and prostitutes in ancient times. Deep within Trump’s perved out and treacherous heart is a human soul capable of redemption, after all.

    Haiku, I know you like to be passive aggressive, and that last comment of yours is a classic mean girly example that got a legitimate laugh out of me, but you’ve developed a terrible habit of interrupting my conversations with enormous amounts of off topic copypasta. Even a troll like you is better than that. The only thing funnier is when I’ve been away for a week or two and catch up on some threads to find you rambling about how terrible I am in threads I never uttered a word in. You’ve built me up in your head as something worth obsession. If you never uttered another word in these blogs I wouldn’t give you another thought, but I seem to have made a real difference in your life. Thank you.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  29. if Mr. Trump wins the whole president does that mean he’s been forgiven?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. Blow it out your rear portal, Dustin. Only a guy like you would think that comment was reserved for you and you only. Good day, sir.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  31. Pfft. All politicians are dishonest with voters; recent example: Ted Cruz.

    JR is just beating them at their own game.

    DCSCA

    You’ve got a point. All politicians are cynical bastards, and truth is a tactic. Cruz is no different, though he calculated that being stalwart and honest about conservatism would carve out a niche, and I find value in that politically.

    Still, is Trump really winning at this game? Remember, before Cruz flip flopped on Trump, Trump flip flopped on Hillary. I still find it unlikely Trump will win the election because no one, even his own fans, actually trusts him. He is simply running on the ‘Hillary is worse’ argument. During the debates, that will be his argument, and the answer to it is to quote Trump telling Americans they need to vote for Hillary because she would make a great president. Trump is a classic example of painting yourself into a corner. Trump is a short term thinker, not a president.

    When (or I’ll grant ‘if’) Trump loses, most of the people he ‘beat’ will hold political power and be relevant, and Trump will be a footnote in history biting at their ankles.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  32. Blow it out your rear portal, Dustin. Only a guy like you would think that comment was reserved for you and you only. Good day, sir.

    Colonel Haiku

    Good grief. Be a man and say what you mean instead of playing this passive aggressive game of insulting people vaguely and crying ‘prove it’ when they look you in the eye and respond to you directly.

    You really don’t actually know what kind of guy I’m like, by the way. I don’t talk about myself on here at all. I find the topic interesting, and find the personal stuff distracting. Again, you’ve built me up into some monster worth obsessing over, and you talk about me endlessly, even in threads I am not in. You’ve lied repeatedly, even about my family and heritage. I could post links to mods telling you to stop lying about what you’ve said.

    I accept you can’t help it and that this is a really emotional issue for you, as sad as that is. All I’m asking is that you knock off the walls of copypasta, which usually seem to come right after I comment, and before you insult me. Even if it’s just a wild coincidence it’s annoying to scroll past.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  33. Moar of the literary equivalent of the Running of the Pomeranians at Pamplona, please.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  34. Some get it, some don’t. Some are gracious, some wouldn’t recognize it if they tripped over it. And there are those that enjoy brown-nosing, when they aren’t bloviating about the obvious, questioning the motivations of others, or whole-heartedly misrepresenting the beliefs or principles of others or simply lying about what others have said.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  35. Beware of comments made by leftwing d-bags, Bob. They lie.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  36. actually except for the last two, it never was such, jennings had a trapper keeper out for the palestinians,

    kristof is a piece of work, remember he was one of joe ‘the liar’ wilson’s sources early on,

    narciso (d1f714)

  37. not to mention what he wrought against dr. steven hatfill,

    narciso (d1f714)

  38. tom friedman is nearly as great a hack re the palestinians,

    https://patterico.com/2005/01/12/kristof-us-should-be-more-like-china-on-infant-mortality/

    they trained him as an arabist, then they sent to moscow and peking,

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. Finkelman gets right to the heart of the matter.

    Good posts, Sammy. The whole lot.

    papertiger (82d7e8)

  40. We used to be able to turn on Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings, Huntley Brinkley, etc., and get actual facts and news, but no longer.

    I hope those “facts” don’t play a role in your thinking today. We’ve been subjected to six decades of indoctrination, and our trust in the men you named was horribly misplaced. It was what they chose not to report that made the big difference. Tens of millions were dying in China while these fools marveled at Mao’s little Red Book. And the Soviet Union was considered a giant bestriding the world, the face of the future. JFK’s cadre of fools were considered the best and the brightest, followed by LBJ’s institutionalization of poverty.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  41. I wonder what portion of black youths excluded from the NEET count are simply taking GED courses at their local community college. I’m glad they are, and I give them full credit for taking responsibility for their lives, but they are spending years of their adult lives correcting for the failure of our inner city schools to provide them with a proper education. We should all be concerned that so many have to resort to this remedial education, particularly after we’ve spent very large fortunes paying for what was claimed to be their education.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  42. well they don’t break it down that way, but one can take a guess,

    http://www.aacc.nche.edu/Resources/aaccprograms/pastprojects/Pages/studentaccessinccs.aspx

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. I’m sorry to see the bitterness and malice have not eased, as I thought.

    See you after the election.

    Mike K (dc2d28)

  44. Math:

    Nobody knows how Trump will do when the votes are tallied in November, but we do know from polling data how Trump is doing right now – and, to the surprise of many inside the Beltway, he’s not doing that bad.

    Recent polls show Trump pulling ahead in the battleground states of Ohio, Florida, Iowa, North Carolina, Colorado and Nevada. Former GOP nominees John McCain and Mitt Romney lost all of these states in 2008 and 2012, with the exception of North Carolina in 2012.

    If these numbers hold, Trump is only a state or two away from cobbling together the 270 electoral votes needed to win the White House; and there’s fertile ground for more Trump pickups all over the map.

    In many purple states where Hillary Clinton is leading, Trump is running ahead of where Romney was in 2012; in Maine, Trump is besting Romney’s numbers by seven points; in Michigan, it’s four points, and in New Mexico and Wisconsin, it’s two points.

    To the shock of some, Trump is also doing better among Latinos than Romney did in 2012. A Bloomberg politics “poll decoder” – which is an average of several national surveys – found Clinton ahead of Trump among Hispanics by 38 points. Which seems bad, until you consider that back in 2012, President Obama won them by 44 points.

    Trump’s numbers among Latinos in the battleground states are even stronger. In Nevada, President Obama won them in 2012 by a whopping 47-point margin; but now, according to a recent NBC News poll, Clinton is ahead by only 35 points. A Univision poll has Trump running ahead of Romney in Colorado among Latinos as well.

    If you’re going just by the numbers, there’s no question that Trump is a stronger general election candidate than was Romney.

    DNF (ffe548)

  45. 50. Excellent point, but this Cetin guy appears conflicted.

    DNF (ffe548)

  46. 33. “I’m not sure Jesus really wants you speaking for him.”

    Sauce for the gander is good on the goose as well.

    “Be a man and say what you mean”

    Pfffftt.

    DNF (ffe548)

  47. houses of ill repute in atlantic city, well that’s never happened, except wasn’t there this show called boardwalk empire,

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. 33- Dustin, probably best you don’t judge others faith. It opens yourself to similar judgment.

    Trump said he doesn’t ask for forgiveness, he tries to live in a way where he doesn’t need to. I think this a perfectly sound way to approach Christianity.

    Galations 3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

    As they say, read the whole thing.

    Jesus died on the cross one time for all time. That act washed away all your sins for all time, through faith. Believe it and rest in your salvation, or don’t and keep begging for forgiveness in fear, but I assure you, Jesus is not going to bleed and die again every time you sin.

    LBascom (c230be)

  49. well that’s true, however continuing to sin, is the sign of a degenerate heart, we are all still sinners, that is the template that distinguishes us from the left, there us a certain class of crimethink that the left accepts as sin, not our catalog however,

    narciso (d1f714)

  50. My dream debate- the janitor has to perform mouth to mouth on grifter granny.

    mg (31009b)

  51. Bob23, yes hindsight is not all that we might hope. But the misdirection of the news to paint rosy pictures of the giant tyrannies was awful. I still remember the “yellow rain” incident in Laos, and the orchestrated campaign to downplay what was probably a bio-weapon test by the Soviets. It was only with the fall of the Soviet Union that we finally got a glimpse of the enormous scale of their biological warfare effort. And still we are always looking for the rosy interpretation of extremely violent and threatening behavior. We all just want to live peaceful lives, and self delusion seems to be the first step. Our understanding of social issues in America today is another topic that is intentionally benighted. We can’t even get honest quarterly GDP numbers from the government. And if we really wanted to understand employment, or the lack of employment, FICA receipts would tell an interesting tale. Instead we used private employment services and census data to fake it.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  52. Mike K., I have been indulging a habit, but I think you may have the right answer.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  53. R.I.P. Arnold Palmer

    Icy (0cb70b)

  54. remember when they talked up that brief ’91 recession’ as the ‘worst in 50 years, yet this downturn apparently doesn’t matter, except when it does, to excuse obama’s failed policies’

    narciso (d1f714)

  55. Damn.

    The passing of the great Arnold Palmer has brought genuine tears.

    Those of us born in and familiar with Western Pennsylvania– Pittsburgh…. Latrobe [and it’s delicious Rolling Rock] hold a special kinship to this truly fine man. My late grandfather knew him in his prime. And I had the pleasure of watching him play at a U.S. Open. The hush as he putted remains etched in my mind.

    The sport of golf and our nation has lost one of the few remaining Ambassadors of Goodness.

    God bless you, Arnie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  56. All athletes that ever made money on a commercial owe The King a thank you.

    mg (31009b)

  57. Was in his army in 5 decades.

    mg (31009b)

  58. 67. Relying on the reports of others, without verification, is of little use; as the Gipper said, ‘trust but verify’ concerning the enemy.

    Well, #nevertrump, be they upright and honorable in their sight, have tossed the trust in with the table scraps and coffee grounds.

    Benefit of the doubt is a thing of the past.

    DNF (ffe548)

  59. I think the cra revisions, the ‘nudge’ directed by doj and hud created the market for this boiler room of phony product, wallison, morgenstern, covered the play by play, the big short entirely misses this,

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 9/25/2016 @ 5:47 pm

    I still remember the “yellow rain” incident in Laos, and the orchestrated campaign to downplay what was probably a bio-weapon test by the Soviets.

    It was not a bio-weapons test – it was serious metropocide, just like what they did later in places in Afghanistan, and Saddam Hussein did with the Kurds in 1988 and Quaddafi threatened to do in Benghazi in 2011, and which is now a possibility in Aleppo, if the world turns very unfriendly both 1) to the admission of Syrian refugees (if western countries are against admittiung refugees, they won’t get into Turkey) and 2) intervention against Assad in the Syrian Civil war.

    The attempt to collect samples in Laos sort of failed – it was a mist. It didn’t congeal. The yellow stuff they collected wass mostly bee pollen – but it actually did contain some chemnicals.

    It’s gone down in academia as unfounded, but it wasn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  61. what color is the moon on your world usuul,

    https://twitter.com/jamestaranto/status/780215651352846337

    narciso (d1f714)

  62. ALEPPO, [American Led Emergency Partial Peace Option] (as Gary Johnson might put it) is falling apart, and never had a chance. It was designed only to delay any independent western or NATO led help.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  63. There is a question how much repeal of Glass Steagal did – most of the actors were not commercial banks.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  64. besides snarky bloggers, how many actual live people read bezos,

    https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/780090642470805504

    narciso (d1f714)

  65. What do anyone think is the matter with Donald Trump that he thought of, or spouted out about, putting ennifer Flowers in a seat in the front row of the debate, instead of Juanita Broderick?

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  66. We used to be able to turn on Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings, Huntley Brinkley, etc., and get actual facts and news, but no longer.

    ROTFL

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  67. kristof is a piece of work, remember he was one of joe ‘the liar’ wilson’s sources early on,

    Other way around.

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  68. What do anyone think is the matter with Donald Trump that he thought of, or spouted out about, putting ennifer Flowers in a seat in the front row of the debate, instead of Juanita Broderick?

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0) — 9/25/2016 @ 7:18 pm

    I believe there were (Hillary orchestrated) attacks against Flowers. I don’t believe there were any against Broderick. If Bill raped her, what’s that got to do with Hillary?

    Gerald A (76f251)

  69. On a relative real-time basis, the news then was a good deal more honest than the same stations broadcasting it today.

    No, it wasn’t.

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  70. Its no accident that CBS is referred to as “Clinton Broadcasting Station”.

    CNN was called Clinton News Network back in the ’90s

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  71. 33. “I’m not sure Jesus really wants you speaking for him.”

    Sauce for the gander is good on the goose as well.

    But feets will want to know exactly what kind of sauce you’re using

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  72. Trump lied about having opposed Iraq prior to the invasion. I don’t like his lying. OTOH, why does it matter whether he opposed it? It’s not like he was in a position to influence policy. Clinton’s lies are about things that happened under her watch. Apples and oranges.

    Gerald A (76f251)

  73. Anyone have any ideas about what Trump’s debate strategy should be? He could try to appear “Presidential” or try to be very aggressive in attacking. My gut tells me he should do the former and reserving his attacks for countering her attacks.

    Gerald A (76f251)

  74. The entire sub-prime mega fiasco in 2008/2009 aka worst market melt down since the Great Crash of 1929, could NOT have happened without repealing the Banking Act of 1933 aka Glass Steagall which had prevented incestuous orgies between Wall St and Banks successfully for some 66 years.

    This is just not true.

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  75. Gerald, I’ll have you know my 82 year old mother opposed the war, too. I’m late in denouncing her.

    Colonel Haiku (d0a528)

  76. You’re the troll, lardbutt. Is your new handle, Bob23, how many times you bob on Trump’s nob?

    nk (dbc370)

  77. Feel good story out of Chiraq:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/09/25/robbers-try-mug-pizza-delivery-boy-turns-ex-nfl-linebacker/

    DNF (755a85) — 9/25/2016 @ 12:40 pm

    I saw that. The article mentions that one of the would-be robbers hit the delivery “boy” as hard as they could, and he didn’t even move. That’s a sign you should RUN. FOR. YOUR. LIFE.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  78. “24. If it splits right down the middle there’s an opening for Mcmullin if he at least carries Utah.”

    Carries? You mean like with a basket?

    McWhoeverheis will be doing good if he breaks 3 digits. Votes. Total.

    What I’m most wondering is if he’ll get more votes than Mickey Mouse. I’d bet not.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  79. OOT: http://luckypeach.com/opusculum-maillard-reactions/

    Browning food like seared steak.

    DNF (755a85)

  80. I will be surprised if Lester Holt does poorly. For a journo he seems adult.

    DNF (755a85)

  81. If Clinton tries the “Trump will start a war” theme, he should equate himself with Reagan and Clinton with Carter. Carter’s main line of attack was that Reagan would start a war, which Reagan demolished with his memorable “There you go again” line. Since this isn’t the foreign policy debate maybe she won’t try that tomorrow.

    Gerald A (76f251)

  82. 99. The third party options are becoming invisible. We’ve got experience with dopers in the WH.

    DNF (755a85)

  83. 102. What is the focus of this debate?

    DNF (755a85)

  84. Speaking of the Dope, he’s looking for a “serious discussion between Xianity and Islam.”

    All the bombings and shootings are not serious enough.

    DNF (755a85)

  85. 106. ‘Tis the season of #wrongwaywitch. I expect a coarse brawler hopped up on pharma.

    DNF (755a85)

  86. Instead of talking about the debate, let’s discuss how Ted Cruz was insulted six months ago. Because that will surely solve the problems of tomorrow.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  87. After the debates, win or lose, we prolly won’t see much of Great Aunt Bernice. Risk of seizure,

    DNF (755a85)

  88. 108. And give in to effete chuckleheadedness? Surely you gest. Erik the fat oink grandiosity?

    I’ll pass.

    DNF (755a85)

  89. childbirth is going down, so are ipo’s despite gazillions of dollars to investment banks, lone wolves are moving at a good clip, jay vee franchises are expanding everywhere,

    narciso (d1f714)

  90. Some surprising upsets this week, led by MN over Charlotte.

    DNF (755a85)

  91. From what I read, she has a quite serious underlying medical condition

    And your’e the kind of fool who believes everything he reads. Any so-called doctor who presumes to diagnose someone without examining them or even seeing their medical records is by definition incompetent or lying, and anyone who takes such a person’s pronouncements seriously is a fool.

    Milhouse (7e779f)

  92. @44- We used to be able to turn on Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings, Huntley Brinkley, etc., and get actual facts and news, but no longer.

    Depends on who was Managing Editor as in Cronkite’s era, that’s who decided the stories covered in the broadcast. (In cable today, the News Director tends to call the shots for the on air talent.) And remember, news was a loss-leader in Cronkite’s time, not a profit center. Cronkite made sure he held the title of M.E. His personal politics were pretty much veiled in his time as anchorman as well- aside from his commentary on Vietnam, clearly labeled as such; and his boyish cheerleading covering the space shots– (which if you’ve ever seen any of it on YouTube, seems totally biased- but quaint, 50 years on.)

    Huntley and Brinkley split news beats with Brinkley in Washington and Huntley in NY– and Brinkley left NBC some years later in a management dispute, after Huntley retired and died. It was Jennings”World New Tonight’ that began the slide of content and blending of entertainment with hard news for perennial third place ABC. With profits and ratings as the focus– ABC News was placed in the hands of Roone Arledge to make news in the 1980s a profit center as he’d done w/ABC Sports. Lots of graphics and ‘color men’… similar production values — and it worked. At the cost of content.

    What you miss is the time when news wasn’t a profit center and the Fairness Doctrine was in place. Those days are long gone, never to return.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. Trump will cross examine the biotch as no one else has. She will yell and scream and cough blood.

    mg (31009b)

  94. One of the most pervasive myths in American politics is that a “Big Blue Wall” will protect Democratic presidential nominees, perhaps even those who lose the popular vote. In truth, this electoral Blue Wall is more like a collection of disconnected forts—some imposing, some not—and the loss of any one of them would likely doom the Democratic nominee.

    The Blue Wall—states where the Democrats have won every presidential race since 1992—includes the entire Northeast except for New Hampshire, the Midwestern Great Lakes states aside from Ohio and Indiana, the three Pacific Coast states, and Hawaii. Even holding the wall is no guarantee of victory. John Kerry won the entire Blue Wall in 2004, plus New Hampshire, yet still lost to George W. Bush by 35 electoral votes. Al Gore won the entire Blue Wall in 2000—back when it was worth 13 more electoral votes—plus Iowa and New Mexico, yet still lost to Bush by 5 electoral votes. For the Democrats, holding the Blue Wall is necessary but not sufficient.

    DNF (755a85)

  95. It is just a fact that race riots are now commonplace. We expect them. This wasn’t true before Obama (unless you reach back 50 years).

    It is just a fact that annual domestic terror attacks are now commonplace. We expect them. This wasn’t true before Obama, ever.

    It is just a fact that anemic economic growth is commonplace. We expect it. This wasn’t true before Obama (unless you reach all the way back to the Depression).

    Four more years! Together!

    DNF (755a85)

  96. Rumor out of Texas has it that the elder Bush will vote for Hillary Clinton. No word of denial issues from Pater, Dubya or Jeb.

    Thus, the fair minded conclude that this spectacularly unsuccessful one term President is not content with the mere achievement of failure in office — scattering the Reagan coalition and handing the country to Bill Clinton in 1992 was a feat of political incompetence that at the time seemed beyond human capacity — the old man now essays to add betrayal of his voter base to his sorry resume.

    If any doubt remained about the philosophical treachery and political incompetence of this clan of faux Texas Northeast squires, its patriarch, uncontradicted by either son, has removed all doubt for all time.

    DNF (755a85)

  97. cia pooftertrash like pappy bush, their loyalties are first to class not country

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  98. Russian TV reports that the FBI discovered another security violation when US Diplomatic Security (DS) found a classified document from then Sec State Clinton’s briefing book left behind in a Russian hotel room. Monica Hanley, one of Hillary’s former aides, was given a diplomatic pouch with the Sec State’s briefing book and took the pouch to the suite of the Russian hotel she was sharing with Clinton. Following their departure, the DS conducted a routine security sweep and found the classified document.

    Not only that, Clinton and her aide violated security protocols by not taking the briefing book to store it in a secure facility when not in her physical possession. According to the FBI,

    DS found a classified document from the briefing book in a suite during a sweep following CLINTON and HANLEY’s departure, and HANLEY was later informed by DS the briefing book and the document should have never been in the suite.

    And the result for Hanley’s violation? A “verbal security counseling.”

    DNF (755a85)

  99. Churchill: “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/the_mark_of_soros_charlotte_north_carolina.html

    #nevertrump = congenital pantslessness

    DNF (755a85)

  100. Regretably they have become the house of usher for the age

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. If one is charitable call them the metelli whose time has come and gine, like the Rockefellers before them.

    narciso (d1f714)

  102. Or the ghibbelines or guelph.

    narciso (d1f714)

  103. 89. Gerald A (76f251) — 9/25/2016 @ 7:31 pm

    Trump lied about having opposed Iraq prior to the invasion. I don’t like his lying. OTOH, why does it matter whether he opposed it? It’s not like he was in a position to influence policy. Clinton’s lies are about things that happened under her watch. Apples and oranges.

    He wants to say he had better judgement tnan the politicians.

    Now, since it is now conventional wisdom in the Democratic Party that the Iraq war was a mistake from the start, Trump could create a problem for Hillary on this issue, since she didn’t come out against the war – I mean that she didn’t say it was a mistake – until 2008.

    But Trump is not satisfied with 2004 – he wants to have been against it before, like Obama.

    Trump was for the war in September 2002, the approximate time Congress was voting to auuthorize the possibility so if he’d been in Congress, he’d have voted for, (because that’s where the windmill was pointing) He used stronger language than Senator Hillary Clinton, who said something like she wanted to give President Bush more credibility in his threat to invade so that he might get Saddam Hussein to agree to inspeectors.

    There might be a point here where Trump says Oct 2002 was the first time he was asked about it. trump expressing alarm about Saddam Hussein and the situation in Iraq in a book published in 2000 is not quite the same thing – Trump clearly had to mean the issue of invasion – not that it was the first time he commented anything about Iraq.

    Besides the book is something that he supervised the ghostwriting of, and “was mentioned” means somebody else brought up the topic, so he could be reasonably say he was unprepared. But Does he have a later statement before the war that is anything different?

    Number 6 is not really a lie, if it is true that the Howard Stern interview was the first time he was asked to comment about Iraq, and that means comment on the the issue in 2002, i.e.,a possible invasion vs sanctions etc.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  104. Trump hesitantly endorsed a future invasion of Iraq in September 2002, saying “I guess so” when asked about it.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/donald-trump-and-the-iraq-war/

    Then, two months before the March 2003 invasion, he publicly indicated in January 2003 that President George W. Bush should have been more focused on the economy than on Iraq.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/07/donald-trump/trump-repeats-wrong-claim-he-opposed-iraq-war/

    According to a February 2016 statement by Sean Hannity, “I battled him at the time. He did not want us to go to Iraq. He was dead set against it.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2016/02/16/gingrich-americans-migrating-away-from-dealmaking-center-supreme-court/

    Hannity says Trump opposed an invasion of Iraq during telephone calls following Hannity’s show.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/09/19/donald-trump-says-he-voiced-his-iraq-war-opposition-to-sean-hannity/?utm_term=.932c409506d5

    So, I think it’s fair to say that by the time of the invasion Trump was totally against it, if Hannity is to be believed. If Hannity is not believed, then Trump merely hinted publicly that Bush ought not to do it.

    (comment cross posted at Redstate!)

    Andrew (7e4f95)

  105. @130- Really doesn’t matter what his musings as a private citizen were as they had no consequences, cost nobody a dime or anybody their live.

    Her vote after extensive classified briefings as a U.S Senator for the war cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. there were plenty of unexploded chemical munitions, that coalition forces encountered, re wikileaks and confirmed by cj chivers reporting, so it was likely more true than not, what they hadn’t fully gauged was the salafization of the baathists, the base of the insurgency,

    narciso (d1f714)

  107. 5. I wrote on 9/25/2016 @ 12:29 pm

    I’m telling you the locus classicus is the New York Times.

    It looked a little like this, but this is actually wrong.

    The locus classicus is the Clinton campaign. It successfully pushed this story on to four publications, but whenever this story got cited further only one place was cited.

    This story was successfully sold to the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post and Politico, all of which had somewhat different versions of the same thing

    The Clinton campaign released a list of Trump lies on Friday, September 16, 2016 that ran to 19 pages. Now probably they had privately released it, or something similiar, to several news organizations before.

    Each of them probably did their own verification, and maybe used some and discarded other. resding between the lines of the New York Times it is clear there were some “lies” it discarded. Maybe they even added some of their own who knows, but they never credited the Hillary Clinton campaign, which was probably the original source taht inspkired the article.

    They succeeded i

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)


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