Libel Litigation As A Tool For Censorship [And Creating A Chilling Effect In The War Against Radical Islam]
[posted by Justin Levine]
As some already know, the abuse of libel litigation happens to be one of my favorite topics.
Jeffery Breinholt at the Counterterrorism Blog has compiled a disturbing history of how radical Islam and their apologists have used our libel laws to try and stifle criticism and dissent.
Calling someone a terrorist, or a terrorist front, seems pretty libelous.
amarc (57e439) — 8/2/2007 @ 1:10 pmExcept when they are …
JD (26820f) — 8/2/2007 @ 1:20 pm“If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…”
Horatio (f61519) — 8/2/2007 @ 1:59 pmHaha:
DATELINE – BIRMINGHAM 1935
The Birmingham Post reports that an Arab sheik is interested in acquiring an American bride for his harem, and describes what he is looking for and some of his good attributes. The newspaper is sued for libel. White v. Birmingham Post Co., 233 Ala. 547, 172 So. 649, Ala. 1937.
My belief this will all be revealed to be an elaborate hoax one day now seems a bit more likely.
alphie (015011) — 8/2/2007 @ 2:05 pmAlso, the Flying Imams are not going after the John Doe passengers. Why? Did the Imams get smart and/or understanding all of a sudden?
I suspect it’s because the new John Doe language has a loophole (which I previously mentioned in this thread-killing comment) that still allows for them to intimidate tipsters via its ““objectively reasonable suspicion” language … but for the Imams to use it now would be to show their cards too soon so they gotta wait a bit first.
If anyone here can reassure me as to why the loophole is not really a loophole, please do. IANAL, but the John Doe “victory” sure looks like a tactical move on the part of those who want muzzle the tipsters, staving off opposition till after the fact.
Once it’s in place (after which Congress will then refuse to revisit it, the first go-around having been more than enough for the elected wunderkinder) CAIR et al will have another legal weapon in their arsenal, a big one.
So c’mon you lawyers, tell me why it isn’t so!
ras (adf382) — 8/2/2007 @ 2:16 pmAnd the Catholic League and Bill Donohue?
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/2/2007 @ 2:30 pmAndres Serrano’s Piss Christ? Chris Ofili’s Madonna?
Nothing on that?
What’s bad for the goose is bad for the gander, so why not describe it that way?
Its not really a loophole, but a necessary feature. You don’t want to immunize the crazies. Just the supposedly mass amounts of reasonable Americans out there that report on the brownies.
amarc (783192) — 8/2/2007 @ 2:35 pmAfter 1,300 years of murder and rape, it is hard to imagine how one can libel a Muslim.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 8/2/2007 @ 3:00 pmThat seems like hate speech to me, perfect sense.
I thought we were supposed to be polite.
alphie (015011) — 8/2/2007 @ 4:05 pmDear Imans:
Another Drew (8018ee) — 8/2/2007 @ 4:40 pmI’ll stop telling the truth about you, when you stop lying about me. Until then, …. off, and the camel you rode in on too.
OK, that’s 5 snarky comments in a row, so allow me to rephrase my q:
If anyone any adults here can reassure me as to why the loophole is not really a loophole, please do.
ras (adf382) — 8/2/2007 @ 4:50 pmThat seems like hate speech to me, perfect sense.
I thought we were supposed to be polite.
Comment by alphie — 8/2/2007 @ 4:05 pm
Good one, Alphie. You might have a redeeming sense of irony, after all … whether you realize it or not.
nk (173e2a) — 8/2/2007 @ 4:51 pmAlphie,
Labeling the truth about Islam as “Hate Speech,” “Libel” or “Slander” is the very abuse of Western thought and law that the post is about.
But then again, maybe your post is subtle irony as NK notes.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 8/2/2007 @ 6:07 pmIt need not have been intentional irony. Ideas stand on their own merits and not on the relative merits or intentions of their proponents. 😉
nk (173e2a) — 8/2/2007 @ 6:37 pmras – It is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.
JD (26820f) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:22 pmHaha, perfect sense.
The idea that 1.3 billion Muslims are all the same, while the tiny little religious and politcal cults that hate Muslims in lockstep are centers of individuality is indeed ironic.
alphie (015011) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:22 pmPerfect Sense, let me rephrase your comment in a way that would sound logical on my lips, who am a Jew:
After 1700 years of murder and rape and robbery, it is hard to imagine how one can libel a Christian.
And since it has even more facts to back it up than your comment, don’t you dare complain.
kishnevi (da26af) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:34 pmRas, the loophole is a necessary one. If Patterico sees a man who is apparently a Muslim behaving suspiciously to police, he should be immune from suit. If Perfect Sense* sees a Muslim, and reports him to police because, in Perfect Sense’s view, all Muslims are suspicious per se, he should not be immune. But it does allow lawyers the necessary wiggle room. To call it a loophole is probably inaccurate: it’s really making the legalities conform to the facts of real life, and which an oversmart lawyer can take advantage of, just as oversmart lawyers have done for centuries. (The history of real estate law is a tangle of such things, which the nineteenth century decided to solve by the simple expedient of throwing out the window as much of it as possible. At which point the oversmart laywers simply transferred their attention to tax law.)
*I hope that Perfect Sense IRL is not like that, but his comment at 8 makes him the perfect example on this thread.
kishnevi (da26af) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:44 pmKishnevi #17,
Care to name any Muslim countries, past or present, with the the counterparts of Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein or even Paul Wolfowitz?
nk (173e2a) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:53 pmP.S. 1700 hundred years? Any Benjamin Disrealis there, also?
nk (173e2a) — 8/2/2007 @ 7:57 pmIran has Jewish Members of Parliament, if that’s what you’re getting at, nk.
alphie (015011) — 8/2/2007 @ 8:14 pmkishnevi,
Thx for the opinion. I must disagree, however, as I think the loophole allows loads of room for legal harassment – enough even to invalidate the very point of the law itself – and … for what?… the police know how to ignore chicken-little informants already; they do it all the time.
So I would say to those who think they won a victory on the John Doe provision: No you didn’t; you lost, big time.
ras (adf382) — 8/2/2007 @ 8:44 pmRas – You may perhaps be right, but at least the debate shed light on what the Democrats were trying to do by sinking the measure in committee. Slimeballs.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/2/2007 @ 9:11 pmIran has Jewish Members of Parliament, if that’s what you’re getting at, nk.
Do they have the same rights as any Muslim in Iran?
Paul (8077b1) — 8/3/2007 @ 12:18 amI don’t suppose you have a link to that Iranian claim (that doesn’t involve an Iranian government spokescritter).
SDN (be8b76) — 8/3/2007 @ 3:27 amSorry, guys. There is no denying that anti-semitism has been a festering sore in the west since the time of Vespasian, which has erupted periodically and horifically. But it is a genetic component in Islam. The slaughter of Jews is part of Islamic scripture. I view devout Muslims the way I view sincere Nazi Party members in 1934 Germany. (Hmm, can I be sued for that?)
nk (173e2a) — 8/3/2007 @ 4:45 amThe Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament is Maurice Motamed.
Religious minorities in Iran are alloted one seat each.
Sorry, nk, the holocaust is part of European history not the middle east.
“…but it is a genetic component in Islam”
It’s more a genetic component of Christianity.
“I view devout Muslims the way I view sincere Nazi Party members in 1934 Germany.”
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/3/2007 @ 7:24 amHow to respond to such ignorance?
Please don’t make me open my copy of the Koran for chapter and verse, AF. Pretty please? Look up in your copy the chapter where Mohammed exterminates a neighboring Jewish community.
nk (173e2a) — 8/3/2007 @ 7:46 amIt’s more a genetic component of Christianity.
How to respond to such ignorance? Have you ever read The New Testament?
nk (173e2a) — 8/3/2007 @ 7:49 amThroughout history, if you were in a fight, and your opponent wanted to kill the Jooooooooos, you were on the right side of the fight.
JD (a248f3) — 8/3/2007 @ 8:30 amAnd when did the Pope officially absolve the jews of the killing of
christ? What century was that? And the born again nutjobs waiting for the rapture who defend Israel only to hasten the end times?
The history of European Christian anti-semitism to the era of the holocaust; there is no comparable event in Islam.
Did I say there were no religious wars? Look up the Crusades. Jews died in them as well as Muslims.
Jews have historically been more accepted under islamic than christian rule. But no there was no utopia anywhere.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/3/2007 @ 8:47 amAF, the claim that “born again nutjobs” ( nice bit of hate speech there, by the way ) only defend Israel because of some apocalyptic desire is a myth.
As for the jews being historically more accepted under islamic rule, that is great history and meaningless in current events.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/3/2007 @ 9:03 amThroughout history, if you were in a fight, and your opponent wanted to kill the Jooooooooos, you were on the right side of the fight.
You sure about that?
Goliath (adf382) — 8/3/2007 @ 9:47 amAF – How does your head keep from blowing up when you type that nonsense. Most people would have an aneurysm just thinking like that. Muslims, not all, have advocated for, and fought for, the destruction of Israel since its conception. And the very notion that the Nazi’s were in any way associated with Christianity is laughable. Socialism, yes. Christianity, no matter how many times you say it, no.
JD (a61287) — 8/3/2007 @ 9:51 amGoliath – I cannot think of a time where killing the Joooooooooos was the right position. Maybe you could enlighten us.
JD (a61287) — 8/3/2007 @ 9:54 amJD,
I would but, oy, I have such a headache!
Goliath (adf382) — 8/3/2007 @ 10:25 amJD, consider the possibility of a Philistine joke.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/3/2007 @ 10:25 amp.s. I read your first comment in this matter backwards, my mistake, so it turns out we’re actually in violent agreement (which in my day really meant something…)
Goliath (adf382) — 8/3/2007 @ 10:26 amNK (and others)–anti-semitism is a genetic component of Christianity. The Gospel according to St. John is one of the primal anti-Semitic documents in history.
Are there anti-Semitic passages in the Koran? Yes.
I didn’t say Perfect Sense’s comment was totally untrue. I only said that my comment had more facts to back it up than his did.
Far more Jews have died at Christian hands than at Moslem hands, even if you exclude the Holocaust. And most of the people who did the killing in the Holocaust were not Nazis, but people who claimed to be believing Christians. In fact, many of them were not Germans but members of the population of the occupied countries. Are you aware that the Poles initiated a pogrom against the surviving remnant of Jews in the late 1940s? (I don’t have the exact date in front of me.) The kids who harassed me when I was a child because I was Jewish went to Christian churches, every last one of them.
Benjamin Disraeli, btw, was baptised as a child, some fifty or sixty years after a series of riots and agitation that forced the government to repeal a law that would have allowed immigrant Jews to become naturalized citizens without converting to Christianity, and a century and a half after Jews were allowed, without any formalizing legalities, to live peacefully in England despite the expulsion ordered by Edward II.
Nor, to my knowledge, has anything like the Inquisition appeared in the Muslim world, to persecute the descendants of those who converted in earlier generations.
And the Moslem world has plenty of counterparts to Lieberman, Wolfowitz, etc. Such people are, unfortunately, not rare either in Islam or Christendom: people who work to initiate wars and invasions on specious grounds.
kishnevi (7907a6) — 8/3/2007 @ 10:44 amNice history, but by coming to America, or choosing to stay in America, Americans are presumed to have left the petty political spats of their countries of origin behind.
It’s rather un-American to bring them up.
alphie (015011) — 8/3/2007 @ 12:24 pmNor, to my knowledge, has anything like the Inquisition appeared in the Muslim world, to persecute the descendants of those who converted in earlier generations.
Actually, it predated the Christian one.
See History of the Jews in Morocco.
Note also these instances where ten’s of thousands of Jews were killed: One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh.
Yours,
Wince and Nod (ec5a4a) — 8/3/2007 @ 1:16 pmWince
You use numbers from “An account by Solomon Cohen dated January 1148 AD” referenced in a pdf available on one website. No one is contesting the crimes of war and conquest. Am I going to have to lecture you on the expulsion of the jews from spain? The reconquesta?
Islam and modern Israel
Benny Morris
“According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?
About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.
According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?
Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.
The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.
That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.
What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?
Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948].
Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?
From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created.
Ben-Gurion was a “transferist”?
Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist.
I don’t hear you condemning him.
Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here.”
AF (ae3b12) — 8/3/2007 @ 1:39 pmSo your response AF to Wince and Nod is a non sequitur?
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/3/2007 @ 1:56 pmAF – Though that was, as always, off topic, while you are at it, could you tell us about some of the great Palestinian leaders throughout time, their political institutions and traditions pre-dating Israel, and when their original borders were recognized on a map.
JD (0c5b67) — 8/3/2007 @ 2:44 pmI began with a specific response to the previous comment, and proceeded with a general one to that comment and others including reference to the Palestinian response to Israel.
“As for the jews being historically more accepted under islamic rule, that is great history and meaningless in current events.”
So first we’re fed lousy history and then we’re told history is irrelevant.
“the claim that “born again nutjobs” (nice bit of hate speech there, by the way) only defend Israel because of some apocalyptic desire is a myth.”
Again, here are John Hagee’s people
Here’s his book.
The long post above, with the interview with Benny Morris, is something everyone should read.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/3/2007 @ 3:12 pmWho is Haggee, and why is he bein held out as some representative of those you disagree with?
Is it just me, or does it seem like AF is more scared of Christians than Muslims?
Still waiting on the Palestinian history lesson.
JD (a61287) — 8/3/2007 @ 3:56 pmAF, actually you had no response to Wince and Nod’s point at all.
As for Hagee, never heard of him. And his existence and his book are not proof that any significant number of “born again nutjobs” support Israel because of an urgency to see the apocalypse.
Israel has a great deal of sympathy among christians, especially evangelicals, because of an interest in the jewish origin of christianity and a reverence for the Holy Land.
Frankly, I’m not impressed by Blumenthal’s treatment of this issue, nor yours. Your enthusiasm to trash whole classes of people show an extraordinary hypocrisy.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/3/2007 @ 4:10 pmThe Nazis were no more Christian than Oliver Willis is skinny.
JD (f44699) — 8/3/2007 @ 5:19 pm“actually you had no response to Wince and Nod’s point at all.”
Read the last of wince’s comment and the first bit of mine.
And pay more attention. Follow his link and do a bit of research.
As to christer philo-semitism there’s a whole history of that as well.
All well documented.
Enough for now. Others can watch the vid and make their own decision.
“never heard of him”
funny
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/3/2007 @ 6:22 pmThe Gospel according to St. John is one of the primal anti-Semitic documents in history.
I always thought that nothing made Jews look worse than Genesis. Adam and Eve getting the human race thrown out of Eden for a bite from an apple; Abraham’s cowardice forcing his wife into whoredom and later getting ready to slit his son’s throat; Jacob cheating his brother Esau out of his inheritance; Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery ….
In comparison, the description of an obsolete priestly class, an incestuous puppet of the Romans, and an ignorant mob inciting the torture and murder of a Jewish carpenter is a pretty lame indictment of Jews generally.
And I thought that Matthew was supposed to be the most anti-Semitic Gospel. Has there been a change in the anti-Christian party line?
Take all the above with a sense of humor and irony because that’s how I intend them.
nk (173e2a) — 8/3/2007 @ 6:27 pmAF, frankly I think I’ve paid too much attention. I’ll remedy that immediately.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/3/2007 @ 6:32 pmActually, it boils down to a simple question:
Another Drew (8018ee) — 8/3/2007 @ 9:05 pmIf all Christians and Jews, or conversely, all Muslims, were wiped from the face of the Earth; Which condition would leave the world a more peaceful place?
I know where my vote would go; do you know yours?
Pretty simple, AD.
We actually have an objective way to answer your question:
Was the world a peaceful place before Muhammad started preaching about 600 A.D.?
alphie (015011) — 8/3/2007 @ 10:37 pmEmpirically, the correct q should be: was the world a more peaceful place … etc.
ras (adf382) — 8/4/2007 @ 12:21 am“was the world a more peaceful place … etc.”
No
Pat I love what you’ve done to the place, really.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 5:19 amSuch a sophisticated bunch.
In 600 A.D., the whole world west of the Indus was in a dark age (with the exception of Constantinople). The Koran is a template for preserving and perpetuating that dark age.
BTW, AF: When you travel, do you buy two tickets? One for you and one for your intellect?
nk (173e2a) — 8/4/2007 @ 5:37 amIdiot.
Islamic scholarship preserved and then reintroduced greek and Latin works that had been lost in Europe since the fall of Rome.
We owe the end of the “dark ages” to the libraries of Islam.
read and learn
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 7:26 amYes, and the Ptolemies, degenerate thieving barbarians that they were, built the Museum of Alexandria. If you want to equate literacy with civilization we can agree to disagree.
(And I know that I’m ignorant and stupid but it’s not very nice of you to keep saying so all the time.)
nk (173e2a) — 8/4/2007 @ 7:52 amIt’s the arrogance that annoys me, not the ignorance.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 8:10 amThere’s a lot I don’t know, but then I don’t claim otherwise.
AF – It’s clear why you don’t write much of your own. You expose your ignorance.
Those evengelicals are scary, scary people, huh? Especially if you don’t understand them. Max Blumenthal? Delicious. He’s the one sliming Matt Sanchez for being gay in the TNR Beauchamp fantasy gate scandal. Very tolerant. Apples don’t fall very far from the tree do they. His dad is a real piece of work.
Benny’s interview was nice. 800 deaths from executions and massacres? Why didn’t you mention the total in your cut and paste job? Why didn’t you also mention that he’s been accused of fabricating facts? I liked the more recent Q&A he participated in at the WAPO in March, check it out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/03/12/DI2007031200377.html. He seems to feel that Jews have more to fear from Islam than the West, presumably Christianity. Who knew.
Have you seen the Exorcist, AF? Do you practice Megan’s lines?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 8:15 amIt’s not that Sanchez is gay it’s that he’s an ex rent-a-boy and a con man. And I have to assume you didn’t read my C/P from Morris. The last paragraph above:
Morris explicitly defends ethnic cleansing. So much for justice, huh?
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 9:34 amRent a boy? Con man?
Back that up, you foul little punk.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/4/2007 @ 9:41 amAF – Why not define ethnic cleansing for everyone’s benefit. In the Morris sense it is transferring a population, not even the entire population, of an area in order to ensure the security of a sparsely populated state created by international mandate. It’s not ethnic cleansing as in the Nazi final solution sense. Get over it.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 9:50 amAnd there’s the lie of the day.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/4/2007 @ 9:59 amThis is so stupid
Rent-a-Boy
“Others [bloggers] were comparing me to Jeff Gannon and claiming that I too had advertised my services as a male escort. I won’t deny it, or that I acted in several adult movies 15 years ago under names like Pierre LaBranche and Rod Majors.”
Accused of Fraud [Guilty? Who knows?]
“The Corps on Friday was slated to wrap up an investigation into allegations that a corporal in the Individual Ready Reserve who appeared in gay porn films before enlisting solicited more than $12,000 from private organizations by asking them to fund a deployment to Iraq he never made, according to e-mails from the investigating officer forwarded to Marine Corps Times.
Reserve Col. Charles Jones, a staff judge advocate called to Marine Corps Mobilization Command in Kansas City, Mo., on temporary orders that expire Saturday, informed Reserve Cpl. Matt Sanchez of the allegations against him in a March 22 e-mail that advised Sanchez of his rights.
Jones wrote that Sanchez’s participation in porn films was part of the investigation, but that two of the three allegations against him involved lying “to various people, including but not limited to, representatives of the New York City United War Veterans Council and U-Haul Corporation” about deploying to Iraq at the commandant’s request.
“Specifically, you wrongfully solicited funds to support your purported deployment to Iraq” by coordinating a $300 payment from the UWVC and $12,000 from U-Haul, Jones wrote.”
—
And of course ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing is what it is, a war crime. And we’re talking more than half a million people, men women and children.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 10:29 amAnd you don’t give a shit.
ras: “… was the world a more peaceful place [before Muhammad started preaching about 600 A.D.]”
AF: “No”
Then we have nothing further to argue about, AF, since your knowledge of history ends at your ego.
ras (adf382) — 8/4/2007 @ 12:18 pm“And of course ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing”
I am humbled by AF’s brilliance and the thoroughness of his explanations. The Benny Morris interview he linked and pasted desribing massacres, rapes, and executions, estimated deaths of 800 in a population of 770,000. Crimes were committed. People relocated, some voluntarily, some involuntarily. AF refuses to define his terms.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 1:47 pmObserve what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 1:54 pm“People relocated, some voluntarily, some involuntarily.”
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 2:01 pmWTF? This is how you describe it?
Bizarre.
Read the WAPO Q&A with Benny Morris that I linked moron.
I thought that was Charleton Heston, not Exodus. No wonder you are fucked up. You take every word literally.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 3:10 pmAF, what’s your definition of ethnic cleansing again?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 3:11 pmAF –
The power of Christ compels you!
The power of Christ compels you!
The power of Christ compels you!
The power of Christ compels you!
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 3:23 pm“AF, what’s your definition of ethnic cleansing again?”
Driving people from their land and homes by the threat of force- those people constituting an ethnic group- in order to create an ethnically unified area for others. It’s the logic that says I have a right of “return” to a place some of my ancestors left 2000 years ago. Tell me why I don;t have more of a “right of return” to the Rhineland, asshole. The logic that says I have a right to land in Palestine, more of a right than someone whose family has lived there continuously for generations and generations, is racist on its face.
Morris is a schmuck. I linked to him as a schmuck talking to Israelis you linked to him before an audience who knows nothing. But so what? You want more links to Israeli revisionist historians? You want to learn something? read this. None of this was even taught in Israeli universities until recently. “The old will die and the young will forget” Who said that? Just for fun: what percent of the land in Israel is held by the JNF?
A political world that gave us the great European Empires gave us Israel. And this self-serving cynicism you call morality.
And you think Arabs are barbarians.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 4:50 pmAF (and does that stand for Arrogant Fabulist?)
1. Who are you calling a “boy”? What are you, a racist? You got something against brown people? Would you say that to Sanchez’ face?
2. Accused of Fraud [Guilty? Who knows?]
Apparently you do, since you declared him a con man, you nasty little weasel. Read the frigging piece. What does it say about the investigation? Do the words “wrapped up” mean anything to you, Mr. Child Molester?
Pablo (99243e) — 8/4/2007 @ 5:21 pmAnd when has Israel ever been cleansed of Arabs, Mr. CM?
Pablo (99243e) — 8/4/2007 @ 5:23 pmGeez AF, I was under the impression you pasted that long piece from Benny because you considered him an authority on Israeli violence against Palestinians. Now when I point out more info from the same piece you linked another more recent sampling of his discource in public which doesn’t necessarily support your case you decide he really is a boob. Why did you link him in the first place then?
I really don’t get much from most of your links. They are sort of like Greenwald’s. Most of the time they don’t say what you think they do or are from irretrievably biased sources like Media Matters or TPM. It’s tough dealing with your outright dishonesty and bad faith, but that’s what I see from the left most of the time.
On a 2000 year old right of return. Do you believe that is a universal right even if the territory has become part of another country by internationally approved treaty? Interesting ideas you have. What was once mine, forget the intervening years and shifting borders, etc., will revert back to me and damn the consequences. Sounds very backward.
Do you happen to grace any other right of center blogs with your commenting presence, perhaps under a different name?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 6:07 pmI liked to a debate between Uri Avnery and Ilan Pappe. If you don’t want to read it that’s up to you.
The WaPo piece was a Morris for an American audience and doe not contradict anything he said in Haaretz. He alludes to the JNF and you didn’t answer my question about how much land it holds.
“Judea and Samaria” is code for the illegally occupied territories. If you want to argue the founding of Israel as somehow moral because of all the arm twisting of small nations by the US then lets get to the details. If you think everything the big boys do is fine then I guess you must love the British Empire. And then we can talk about induced famine in India.
The point (or my point at least) is not to argue against negotiation it’s to argue from a serious understanding of the facts. You don’t seem to want to do that. A lot of people in this country don’t. But over time more and more do.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 6:35 pm“Do you happen to grace any other right of center blogs with your commenting presence, perhaps under a different name?”
nope, only here
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 6:35 pmAF – If I don’t accept your premises I see no reason to answer your loaded questions. You have your own interpretation of your own set of “facts” which you seem to demand that people recognize rather than understand. You also make a habit of ignoring questions directed at you.
Why again did you use Morris as a source if he is unreliable?
I thought the British had the Palestinian Mandate, AF, not the US, and that after WWII, the UN blessed the partition but the Arab League rejected it and attacked the Jews. Did you address the “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from the neighboring Arab countries after the first Arab-Israeli war, continuing your theme?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 7:49 pm“Why again did you use Morris as a source if he is unreliable?”
Because I thought you’d like his reasons for defending what most people would consider indefensible. I could have just started out with the link to Gush Shalom.
“facts” in your scare-quotes:
More than half a million [maybe 3/4 of a million?] people thrown out of their homes and off their land in the name of what you call just and fair.
“I thought the British had the Palestinian Mandate,”
By your logic they had the mandate for the Indian Subcontinent as well. But the Palestinians didn’t have Gandhi.
It was Palestinian land and the remnants of the British Empire.
“Did you address the “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from the neighboring Arab countries after the first Arab-Israeli war, continuing your theme?”
Crimes beget crimes. The question is why the crimes of Europe -the attempted extermination of a people- should lead others to justify the destruction of a homeland. Mass murder is not mass expulsion, but crimes are crimes and revenge is revenge. Why don’t I have a right of return to the Rhine Valley?
You’re the one who oversimplifies. I just remind you how messy it all is.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/4/2007 @ 8:27 pmAlphie says :::::Iran has Jewish Members of Parliament, if that’s what you’re getting at, nk.
Ok, I will be polite here. Alphie, what you say at face seems counterintuitive. Please provide a citation proving that there are Jewish members of the Iranian Parliament.
red (9e9332) — 8/4/2007 @ 8:57 pmMore than half a million [maybe 3/4 of a million?] people thrown out of their homes and off their land in the name of what you call just and fair.
Though I don’t accept your numbers, some of those who left did so before any fighting began as they did not wish to be in the middle of a war, they realized that if the Arabs won they would be living under the rule of thugs, and others did not wish to live under the rule of “dhimmi” if the Jews won. Others fled from the fighting once it began, and yes, some were forced of the land as happens in every war.
“I thought the British had the Palestinian Mandate,”
By your logic they had the mandate for the Indian Subcontinent as well. But the Palestinians didn’t have Gandhi.
It was Palestinian land and the remnants of the British Empire.
The British had no mandate for India. The League of Nations created the mandate for Palestine and assigned the mandate to Britain for the purpose of creating a national home in Palestine for the Jewish people without prejudice to the existing inhabitants.
“Did you address the “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from the neighboring Arab countries after the first Arab-Israeli war, continuing your theme?”
Crimes beget crimes. The question is why the crimes of Europe -the attempted extermination of a people- should lead others to justify the destruction of a homeland. Mass murder is not mass expulsion, but crimes are crimes and revenge is revenge. Why don’t I have a right of return to the Rhine Valley?
What crimes did the Jewish inhabitants of Arab lands comit? There is a long history of violent pogroms and humiliating treatment of Jewish inhabitants of Arab lands that predates the founding of modern Israel or the establishment of the mandate. For example, the murder of Jewish males in Yahtrib (Medina) and the enslavement of their wives and children by Muhammad himself circa AD 635.
The British as mandatory power severed ~75% of the mandate lying east of the Jordan River and created the Kingdom of Transjordan. It’s first legislative act was to ban all Jews from living in the country. Some Jewish communities that had been in existance for thousands of years were disbanded an their inhabitants expelled. Later, the British gave about 10% of the remaining territory (Golan Heights) to the French.
The crimes of Europe exemplified the need for a Jewish homeland. That homeland was created years before Hitler’s holocaust.
Germany does have a right of return. Ask the Germans who lived in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years and were expelled following WWII. Perhaps you qualify for return to the Rhine Valley.
Stu707 (adbb5a) — 8/4/2007 @ 9:15 pmAF – Just more blatant dishonesty on your part again. You pasted in the Benny Morris bit and link in response to a post by Wince and Nod after threatening to lecture him. You praised it as follows:
“The long post above, with the interview with Benny Morris, is something everyone should read.”
Funny, now that I pointed out some additional information in the interview and a subsequennt online Q&A with Benny that doesn’t make your case as strong, you’re disavowing him as a useful source.
You also blamed the formation of Israel on the U.S., which as both I and Stu pointed out is blatantly wrong.
It’s tough to promote the understanding you claim to seek when you are either always vacillating between positions or your facts are in fundamental error. It often seems you are too emotionally attached to the subjects you are discussing to think objectively, a very common problem of the left. You just “feel” you are always right, facts be damned, especially when they are inconvenient.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/4/2007 @ 10:41 pmI’ll lump the last two comments together.
“Funny, now that I pointed out some additional information in the interview and a subsequennt online Q&A with Benny that doesn’t make your case as strong, you’re disavowing him as a useful source.”
It was a useful source for showing his extremism. And I explained his use of the terms Judea and Samaria [which he compared to Virginia!] and asked you about the JNF, about which Americans know little. Look it up. And there’s still the link about which you haven’t read. One of the men talking is a veteran of the war of independence.
“You also blamed the formation of Israel on the U.S., which as both I and Stu pointed out is blatantly wrong.”
“Though I don’t accept your numbers, some of those who left did so before any fighting began as they did not wish to be in the middle of a war, ”
Read some of the new history. But those numbers aren’t even new. They’re the standard. The US used every trick in the book to force the hand of small countries over which it had economic power. Look at the vote and I think you’ll see who they might be.
“The British had no mandate for India. The League of Nations created the mandate for Palestine and assigned the mandate to Britain for the purpose of creating a national home in Palestine for the Jewish people without prejudice to the existing inhabitants.”
That last line would be funny if it weren’t so obscene. Words on a paper don’t make it any less a crime. Which was my point.
“Germany does have a right of return. Ask the Germans who lived in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years and were expelled following WWII. Perhaps you qualify for return to the Rhine Valley.”
Germany until recently based citizenship on blood. The fact that you may have been born in the country meant nothing. The logic has begun to change but not faast enough. Israel was designed along the same logic and the Arab population, though they are citizens, exists as a group of second rank denied equal rights to law and land. It is “a Jewish State” with others living in it. And don’t even begin to defend that. Answer my question about the JNF.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 8:02 amAF really has a thing for those evillllll Joooooooooos, huh? That puts him in some really pleasant company.
JD (8fd56a) — 8/5/2007 @ 9:04 amI’m a Jew, you asshole
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 9:24 amThis particular style of self -loathing is something new for me.
JD (388d32) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:15 amthere, fixed that for you, AF.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:45 amOr not!
There, that’s better.
So, why should we listen to a child molester like you, AF?
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:47 amOK, what’s with the strike function?
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:47 amWhat rights are Israeli Arabs denied, liar?
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:48 amAnd I explained his use of the terms Judea and Samaria [which he compared to Virginia!] and asked you about the JNF, about which Americans know little. Look it up. And there’s still the link about which you haven’t read. One of the men talking is a veteran of the war of independence.
You gave your explanation of the terms Judea and Samaria which is they are code words. The JNF is the Jewish National Fund to which Jews all over the world contributed money that was used to buy land in Palestine from Arabs. Prior to 1948 Jews obtained privately owned land in Palestine only by purchasing it from Arabs.
The numbers you cited are not new but they are in dispute. How about answering Daleyrocks’ question about the Jewish inhabitants of Arab lands? There were 800,000 of them who fled or were driven out of homes they had lived in for millenia with little but the clothes on their backs. What became of the property and homes they left behind?
Sixhundred-thousand of them settled in Israel. They and their descendants along with the descendants of Jews who never left Israel constitute about half the population of modern Israel.
The US used every trick in the book to force the hand of small countries over which it had economic power. Look at the vote and I think you’ll see who they might be.
What trick did the US use to force the former USSR and the former eastern bloc states to vote for the UN partition plan?
Germany has a law of return. So does Russia. Care to guess which group of people are specifically excluded from Russia’s law of return? Ireland has a right of return as do other countries.
Israel was designed along the same logic and the Arab population, though they are citizens, exists as a group of second rank denied equal rights to law and land. It is “a Jewish State” with others living in it. And don’t even begin to defend that.
Arab citizens of Israel are the only Arabs with an unlimited right to emigrate. Few of them do. Your characterization of them as a group denied equal right under law is simply false. That does not mean that there is no discrimination against Arab citizens. There is some discrimination against minorities in the US notwithstanding Federal and state laws forbidding it. But Arab citizens have access to Israeli courts and have had their rights upheld.
The “new” historians have unearthed no new primary sources. They have simply re-interpreted long existing sources.
That you, living in the US, disdain the right of return is a tribute to the freedom and democracy, that though far from perfect, has prevailed in the US since its beginning.
IIRC, you once posted that your great-grandfather emigrated from Poznan. What became of your family and their descendants that he left behind? Were they led out into a field, forced to dig their own graves, and then shot? Are their remains mixed with those of my lost cousins, aunts, and uncles in a common ash heap at Auschwitz?
Stu707 (adbb5a) — 8/5/2007 @ 10:55 amAre you gay too, AF, not that there’s anything wrong with that? I thought lefties claimed that gays are self-loathing unless they are out of the closet.
Do you have a teutonic name? The Rhine flows along the French border there, you frequently sound like a cheese eating surrender monkey, so who knows. The French haven’t been particularly kind to Jews, but in your case, I don’t think it’s your religion, I think it’s your personality.
You might want to work on that. Just sayin’.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:00 amGuys, while I find some of AF’s comments above more than a little disturbing, I think that some of the responses are getting a bit out of hand.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:11 amRobin – My bad. After his screeds about how horrific Israel is, I simply could not come up with another descriptor than self-loathing. AF – I apologize.
JD (90efaf) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:21 amJust using his own rationale by which it’s OK to smear people, Robin. If he finds it distasteful, he should retract and desist.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:29 am“self-loathing.”
And you apologize to her or to me?
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:31 amPablo, well here I was kinda proud we were bigger people than AF.
Robin Roberts (6c18fd) — 8/5/2007 @ 11:36 amAF -I apologized to you, shithead, and to everyone else for coarsening the “debate”.
JD (a71458) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:07 pmRobin – I apologize to you and the other commenters. AF, you are on your own. Your behavior of smearing people across threads is consistent, including this one. I haven’t seen any apologies from you directed to anyone except our host(?).
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:07 pm“AF – I apologize.”
How much more clear can that be?
JD (a71458) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:09 pmKnock it off you guys! No one is ruder than Abdul Falafel, here. No one hates America more than AF. No one hates western civilization more than AF. Apologize to him for what? For holding a mirror up to his face to show the kind of feces he is? If you want to apologize to anyone, apologize to yourselves for allowing yourselves to descend to his level.
nk (173e2a) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:17 pm“your characterization of them as a group denied equal right under law is simply false.”
Palestionians living in illegally occupied territories (which Morris calls Judea and Samaria) live under military rule, not civil law. They are prisoners on their own land.
Yale Israel Journal Legal Rights, Social Status: Arab Citizens of Israel
An Interview with Hassan Jabareen
Human Rights Watch SECOND CLASS
Discrimination Against Palestinian
Arab Children in Israel’s Schools
UN Committee asked Israel about the Status of the Jewish National Fund, the Citizenship Law and the Arab Holy Sites
The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:17 pm“your characterization of them as a group denied equal right under law is simply false.”
Palestionians living in illegally occupied territories (which Morris calls Judea and Samaria) live under military rule, not civil law. They are prisoners on their own land.
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:18 pmYale Israel Journal Legal Rights, Social Status: Arab Citizens of Israel
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:18 pmAn Interview with Hassan Jabareen
AF displays a very lofty, but fragile, ego, as if he were trying to convince himself of his own worth by playing a part, a part which sees him morally better than anyone else.
You can argue the issues with him, guys, but it ain’t about what it’s about, so why bother?
ras (adf382) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:25 pmWell, sure we are, Robin. This is all AF is capable of. This is the best he’s got. We can and do do much better, when that’s warranted.
With AF it isn’t warranted. In fact, it’s a complete waste of time and civility. You can’t reason with a rabid dog.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:32 pmIsraeli Arabs are not Palestinians. They’re Israelis. Citizens of Israel.
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:34 pmPablo,
Agreed. All AF wants is validation and arguing with him provides that, by implying that his position is worth arguing against.
In this sense he is typical of so many such people these days. Were the rest of us, 100%, to switch our positions to his, he would then be compelled to switch, too, else he would not be different and therefore better than us.
Only by being contradictory can he be superior, and only by our treating his positions seriously can we be enablers in his adolescent quest.
It’s time for the AF’s to grow up and it’s time for the rest of us to let them.
ras (adf382) — 8/5/2007 @ 12:39 pmAre Christians, Jews and Muslims allowed to intermarry in Israel yet, Pablo?
Or do they still have to leave the country?
And are Israeli Arabs, citizens of Israel, allowed to bring their spouses to live Israel if they marry a foreigner yet?
alphie (015011) — 8/5/2007 @ 1:06 pmOh alphie, you’re special. Everyone’s special, specially you, you special little devil, and you really care about people more than others do and that makes you even more special.
And we love your fingerpaintings, too, they’re the best in the class. Very special.
Substitute Teacher (adf382) — 8/5/2007 @ 1:14 pmIt’s a poor teacher who can’t answer a couple of simple questions, Sub.
You should have gone with “Why do hate America?” in this case, Sub.
Instead of answering my questions, that is.
alphie (015011) — 8/5/2007 @ 1:28 pmWhy don’t you show us where they’re not able to do that, alpo? ‘Cuz while I’ve got this hammer out….
Pablo (99243e) — 8/5/2007 @ 1:54 pmWhy, in Israel, last time I checked, Pablo.
1. Christians, Jews and Muslims are not allowed to intermarry.
2. Arab Israelis are not allowed to bring their foreign spouse into the country to live there.
Last time I checked, that is.
If that has changed…I’d like to know.
alphie (015011) — 8/5/2007 @ 1:58 pmIntermarriage Here are some details
AF (4a3fa6) — 8/5/2007 @ 2:20 pmand here
Alphie, what does Israeli marital status (or blocking of marriage) have to do with libel litigation to try and stifle criticism and dissent in the US?
Paul (771326) — 8/5/2007 @ 2:23 pmI used to think that AF just copied and pasted because he lacked the ability to form his own positions. After reading some of his own thought, he is best served using others arguments.
JD (b830c0) — 8/5/2007 @ 2:25 pmI’m not the one who moved this discussion overseas, Paul.
Do you think Muslim-Americans should have access to the American judicial system?
alphie (015011) — 8/5/2007 @ 4:33 pmIn America we have the left and the Blame America First crowd. AF highlights the Jewish Blame Zionism/Israel First Crowd.
Does anyone know if Soros has started a franchise operation or anything?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/6/2007 @ 7:44 amThe end of military rule in 1966 did not end this legal and institutional discrimination [against Iraeli Arabs].
On the contrary there have been numerous cases brought by Arab citizens of Israel against the Israeli government in which the courts have upheld the rights of Arab citizens. Notably, in 2002 “Israel’s Supreme Court ruled the government may not allocate land based on religion or ethnicity and may not prevent Arab citizens from living where they choose.” The Case For Israel, Alan Dershowitz, P157 citing Thomas Friedman, NY Times 3-18-02. Chapter 28 of Dershowitz’ book contains numerous examples of Israel’s courts ruling in favor of its Arab citizens.
The article in the Yale Israel Journal complains of excessive force used by police and military authorities and other examples of unfair treatment of Arab citizens. Such complaints are not unusual in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, or multi-confessional society. Israel, like the US, is not a perfect democracy. The only middle eastern state where Arabs can sue their own government and win is Israel.
Kahled Shikaki, a Palestinian political scientist who has been polling Palestinians since 1966 about what governments they admire found that every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving 80% approval. The American system has been the next best followed by the French. In its early days the Palestinian Authority was in 4th place. Now it is dead last. Dershowitz, P188, citing James Bennet, Letter from the Middle East, NY Times 4-02-03.
A different look at the social and economic condition of Israeli Arabs can be found at the above link.
Israel’s occupation of Judah and Samaria is not illegal. Israel seized the territory from Jordan in a defensive war. Israel has since signed a peace treaty with Jordan. As Israel did in its peace treaty with Egypt it returned all captured territory to the other side other than that which the other parties renounced their claims to. In Jordan’s case it renounced its claims on Judah and Samaria. Israel has said it would turn over the territories to the Palestinians upon conclusion of a peace treaty with them. Until the conclusion of a peace treaty its occupation will continue and is legal.
Stu707 (adbb5a) — 8/6/2007 @ 2:46 pm