Patterico's Pontifications

3/9/2016

Why Rubio and Kasich Must Be Crushed

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:34 am

Here are some controversial statements: It is more important that Marco Rubio lose Florida than that Donald Trump not win. It’s more important for Kasich to be crushed in Ohio than it is for Trump not to get those delegates.

Trump had a good night last night, but in some ways Cruz had a better one, because of Marco Rubio’s humiliating defeats in various states. Rubio appears to have amassed 2 delegates last night, while Trump appears to have taken 72 to Cruz’s 59. (Kasich won 17.)

Allahpundit asks why Cruz people are throwing water on the idea of a contested convention. As someone who has called for Marco Rubio’s utter electoral humiliation, and believes it is critical that he lose Florida (and John Kasich lose Ohio), let me try to answer.

Thomas Sowell likes to talk about “Stage One” thinking, in which people seek a certain result (Stage One) and fail to think through the consequences (Stage Two and beyond). I think that people who seek to have Rubio win Florida are Stage One thinkers. It will deny Trump delegates! Yay! Helps keep Trump from getting a majority! Yay!

This is Stage One thinking, and last night illustrates the problem. Ted Cruz would have probably won a majority of the vote in Idaho last night and swept the delegates there, but for Rubio. Without Kasich and Rubio, Cruz would have had a chance at Michigan and Mississippi as well.

With no Kasich or Rubio, Cruz would be the delegate leader.

A loss in their home states might be what we need to kick Rubio and Kasich out of this car. If they win, the result in Stage Two is that they’ll keep going, and Rubio especially will continue to suck away votes that should be going to Cruz.

As for a contested convention: let’s face the fact that the Republican party is probably going to lose this election, because it is fractured so badly. But if you want to make that possibility a certainty, concoct a scenario where the guy who is in second place in delegates — or third, or fourth, or nowhere — ends up being the nominee.

Yes, we may well be headed towards a “contested convention” where the delegate leader lacks a majority of delegates. But there will be a strong expectation that whoever is in the lead emerges the winner.

If you’re looking to buck that trend, look ahead to Stage Two. Stage One: your candidate comes from a second or third place position in delegates to be the nominee. What happens in Stage Two?

I’ll tell you what happens. The supporters of the original delegate leader walk. And the nominee loses.

It’s not that I’m against a contested convention per se. I’m against one in which the goal is to vault Mr. #2 or Mr. #3 into first place.

I’m not sure Ted Cruz wants the nomination under those circumstances. I’m not sure I want him to have it under those circumstances. Because when Trump’s voters stay home or vote for Hillary in droves, the “lesson” learned will be that real conservatism kills the GOP.

Ted Cruz must go into the convention the delegate leader, even if he does not have a majority.

It is why Rubio and Kasich must get out. And they won’t do so voluntarily. They must be crushed.

176 Responses to “Why Rubio and Kasich Must Be Crushed”

  1. Yes.

    DRJ (15874d)

  2. Very reasonable and well said.
    I don’t know what will happen for sure, but I agree with that reasoning.
    The main issue that doesn’t line up with that is we do not know what unforeseen scandals or mistakes are made.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  3. It would be wonderful if Rubio bows out before Florida. I doubt Kasich will drop out before Ohio.
    His stage two scenario is he gets in on the second vote, or gets the VP nod to get someone over.

    The Trump is for the Trump,
    The Kasich is for the Kasich.

    Yes, to some degree Cruz is for Cruz, but to date that means Cruz will do what he campaigned to do

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  4. We kind of have to fight this kind of thinking about the Orange Toupee, Patterico:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRUa_E1CugU

    I’m betting nk will like that video.

    It’s going to be a long hard slog. I am waiting to see the Thursday debate.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  5. Ace at Ace of Spades has advocated crossing this Rubicon too.

    JP (bd5dd9)

  6. If Rubio and Kasich would each take one for the team, that would be appreciated for a long time. One of the key reasons Rubio’s not the frontrunner, is because the conservative base has not forgotten the Gang of 8. He could go a long way toward re-building those bridges by withdrawing right now.
    Nixon did lots of networking during the 1960s, which was key to getting the ’68 nomination. Look at the long view, Marco.

    We can’t risk a crash-and-burn with Trump as the nominee.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  7. A question.
    While I agree both Marco the Rubot and the Hunchback of Ohio, (Kasich), need to be crushed utterly, what makes you think all their support will go to Cruz? Yes, he will get some, but Trump is considered the second choice by a lot of the voters.

    Angry Webmaster (c2a001)

  8. There shall be no compusion in acceptance of the frontrunner. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Trump and believes in Cruz has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Cruz is hearing and knowing.

    So crush Rubio and Kaisich where they campaign, and strike off their delegates.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  9. Trump may win but he will not be a conservative President, and Cruz will be there in 4 years. But if Rubio and Kasich get out soon, then it will be Trump vs Cruz and I think Cruz will win that fight and could go into the Convention as the delegate leader.

    DRJ (15874d)

  10. Avery,

    The only way to know for sure is to vote — Trump vs Cruz.

    DRJ (15874d)

  11. I have said it since last summer. Mr. Trump is in this race for one reason, and one reason only, to ensure a Hillery win. Master triangulation plan cooked up long ago between both parties. The sooner the GOP and its voters realize this, and rally behind another Cruz, the better the plan will not work. But the GOP being what it is, will always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    May someone have mercy on all our souls.

    Trippy64 (257ab5)

  12. Ok, Rubio and Kasich must be crushed. How?

    nk (dbc370)

  13. Trippy64 (257ab5) — 3/9/2016 @ 8:24 am

    very possible.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  14. I think Patterico is urging people to vote for Cruz, even if they prefer Rubio or Kasich.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. At first I thought this was a stupid idea, but you’ve convinced me. The goal is to Dump Trump. I think you are correct, this is the best path forward. Having a second place candidate get the nomination will only ensure losing the general, and of course having Trump be the first place candidate will also ensure losing the general.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1)

  16. I don’t know. I’m not worried about a floor fight. We haven’t had a good one for a while. I think the determining factor in how this all works out will be how Cruz competes with Trump in the weeks ahead. The personal name-calling stuff is entertaining but not persuasive enough to cause the Trumpsters to reconsider their fealty to their gilded champion. Cruz needs to needs to start talking directly to American workers about how his idea of a return to limited federal government will promote freedom and prosperity he as did this am with Carly in Miami.

    As Trippy64 points out above no matter what they say the ruling class wins and we the people lose either way in a Trump v Clinton race. Cruz can win by focusing less on who he is and more on how his presidency will reignite the American Dream for all.

    crazy (cde091)

  17. Rubio voters break 70/30 to Cruz vs. Trump.

    I predict the GOPe just cannot give up on Rubio / Kasich.

    #NeverTrump really means #NeitherTrumpNorCruz

    Harun (7b1d2c)

  18. You people are just thick.

    Rubio has no job, of course he’s staying in.

    https://pjmedia.com/election/2016/03/08/malkin-to-pjm-i-would-pick-trump-over-rubio/?singlepage=true

    Kasich likewise is looking for work back in DC.

    The Donors have the final word on their presence in the race.

    Finally, Cruz is no lock to recieve their support when the go.

    DNF (ffe548)

  19. Carly pulls through in the clutch!!!!!

    Ohio voters that see the goodness of Ted must NOT be stupid thinking of voting for Kasich only to push out Trump……. Vote for the best candidate not the gamble pick. Ted Cruz is tight in votes with Trump. Trump is only winning due to open primaries ….its now or never!!!
    Carly did the right thing. God Bless her for speaking out!

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  20. Desperation is an embarrassing thing to watch. Rubio has had his turn in the can, next up is Ted. Watch for him to visit the Reagan and Goldwater gravesites claiming he has channeled them in some way.
    But Ted will kowtow to the Donald so he can get that SCOTUS seat.

    spokanebob (1aaf2a)

  21. I am amazed at the folks supporting Trump to destroy the GOP and bring about some return to Constitutional government. That’s like being a Russian aristocrat ans supporting the October Revolution in order to force the Czar to return to the old Imperial values.

    What you are going to get is Trump who will treat the Constitution as he treated all those contracts he tore up in BK.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  22. Cruz/Fiorina 2016!

    Colonel Haiku (d1ec67)

  23. One good thing about the upcoming GOP convention: The TV people won’t be ignoring it as they usually do.

    It’ll be the best reality show EVER! Survivor: GOP

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  24. Trump/Romney

    “Nice little presidency you got there, wouldn’t want anything to happen to it, would you?”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  25. How is Rubio funding his ongoing campaign, his American Express card?

    If Trump is Hitler, could it be that Rubio is Stalin and Cruz Churchhill?

    Obama paid off Hillary’s campaign debt in 2008.

    Suppose Trump made a similar deal with Rubio? They still go at each other to make it look good but Cruz still has to spend money on Rubio.

    Rubio can be Ambassador to Cuba and live like a Pasha 90 miles from his house. He’s gonna need a bigger boat.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  26. Kevin M 25,

    Survivor: GOP

    That’s very good.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  27. Don’t worry about Marco Rubio, he’s already dead, he just doesn’t have the sense to shut up and lie down. He was elected in Florida (I supported him) as a TEA Party candidate with strong anti-illegal alien credentials. Then once he got to the Senate he was easily co-opted by the GOP establishment. The price of admission to the exclusive Club was, of course, sacrificing his integrity by turning his back on the voters who put him in office. He became the new fresh face of comprehensive amnesty – a grinning front man for the Gang of 8 (turncoats).

    Florida voters have not forgotten or forgiven Marco Rubio for his blatant treachery. He couldn’t get elected Dogcatcher in the Sunshine State. If he’s still in the race come Tuesday, he’ll get whipped like a 2 dollar rent horse. Even the Cubans in Miami won’t vote for him, they like Trump and Curz.

    PS: Patterico, I just bought a wrist watch and a tool kit using your Amazon link.

    ropelight (c59a12)

  28. Stage One thinking, like Mexicans who celebrate the victory of Cinco de Mayo (one battle) in a war they actually lost.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  29. What can Cruz offer them to drop out? (Not that they’re in it for payoffs, but come on.)

    With Rubio, I think he would take the VP slot if that’s not going to Carly. Rubio has always been knowledgeable on foreign policy, even if he is far more “neocon” than, say, Rand Paul. That or State. Thoughts?

    With Kasich, it’s harder to say. Chief of Staff, if he’d take the job? OMB? I would say HHS, but I don’t trust Captain ObamaCare Expansion in that role. Again, thoughts?

    Part of the reason I’m coming around to Cruz (although I still think Rubio would do better in the general) is that Cruz has done so much better than he was doing 6 weeks ago. I hate to say “he’s better now that he is more popular,” but it matters.

    Mitch (341ca0)

  30. I knew there was something about Carly I liked. She’s not really Italian, you know. Fiorina is her husband’s name. Her real name is Sneed and she’s from Texas.

    nk (dbc370)

  31. Hunger games brought to you by priebus, sea island was playoff conference.

    narciso (732bc0)

  32. Adding insult to injury, Trump won the Michigan county that includes Romney’s home town

    Dearborn, top Arab-American U.S. city, just voted for Donald Trump.

    Donald Trump is the first Northern Republican to sweep the Deep South

    Trump has won every state with an unemployment rate above 5% and where more than 8% of the population is black

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/09/horse-race-livewire-8/

    yeah lets do a brokered convention!

    sound awake (04e750)

  33. Currently the delegate count stands at: Trump 458, Cruz 359, Rubio 151, Kasich 54, Carson 8.

    1237 are needed to win.

    Assume that Rubio wins the Virgin Islands (seems likely), Cruz wins Guam and DC. Then assume that March 15 breaks down like this: Trump Florida, Illinois, Ohio; Cruz Missouri, North Carolina, American Samoa.

    I’m going to ignore the delegates from North Carolina and DC because they’re proportional which means I can’t predict for sure how they’d break out; i’m looking just at WTA delegates.

    In that scenario, Rubio and Cruz pick up unbound delegates from Guam and American Samoa.

    Meanwhile, Trump picks up 99 delegates from Florida, 69 delegates from Illinois, and 66 delegates from Ohio, leaving him at 692 delegates.

    (Of course, it’s more complicated than that, because Illinois is WTA *by Congressional district*, which is a terrible system, but that’s what they have – so Trump wouldn’t get *all* of the delegates. Let’s say Illinois he only gets 3/4 of the delegates due to congressional district shenanigans; that leaves him at 674.

    *Including* the proportional delegates handed out next week, these states still have proportional distribution: DC, North Carolina, Utah, New york, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Oregon, Washington, and New Mexico. They collectively award 345 delegates. If Trump can get 1/3 of the delegates in the proportional states, he’ll get 113 from them, leaving him at 787.

    So then the question is: Can Trump win any WTA states in a two man race? How many CD-assigned delegates can he pick up that way?

    (delegate numbers and state rules taken from http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/republican_delegate_count.html)

    aphrael (3f0569)

  34. Katich is running for Trump’s VP position. As long as he is in the race, he’ll drag votes away from Cruz. I don’t expect him to leave. Rubio would be smart to endorse Cruz before the Florida primary. It would save his career and hurt Trump. However, I expect Rubio to continue since his ego is on the line.

    jkstewart2 (8c4cbc)

  35. Smart move by Carly, btw. She wants to be VP, but not with Trump, so the moment that it was surely not Rubio, she endorses the other option.

    She’s also saying that it’s over for Marco. His skunking yesterday was the end.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  36. Kasich running doesn’t really do anything. He’s a John Anderson. He draws Democrat votes in open primaries and confused country club Republicans in closed primaries. I can’t see them really choosing between Trump or Cruz.

    Rubio, OTOH, hurts Cruz.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  37. This is why Trump wins it all.

    https://ricochet.com/an-open-letter-to-the-conservative-media-explaining-why-i-have-left-the-movement/

    http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2015/November/39/11/magazine/article/10829676/

    Jeff (4358cb) — 3/9/2016 @ 7:57 am

    I read the first link. He’s largely incoherent.

    Here’s his major pro-Trump points:

    1. A huge beef with most Republicans is they support free trade. He’s against it. This seems to be his single biggest beef with the other candidates aside from Trump. It’s one area where he thinks Trump shines.

    Lost in all of this is the older strain of conservatism…This strain understood that a situation where every country in the world but the US acts in its own interests on matters of international trade and engages in all kinds of skulduggery in support of their interests is not free trade by any rational definition.

    This is a fact-free argument. We don’t currently have free trade with every country. What skulduggery by who? He doesn’t say.

    Trump has accused the Chinese of suppressing their currency’s value. This is either a lie or ignorance on Trump’s part – probably the latter. The yuan has risen a lot over the years vs. the dollar until recently, and the Chinese have been trying to stop it from declining recently. The idea they artificially suppress the value of their currency is a myth.

    Beyond that, he has the stupid idea that is probably rampant among Trumpers that nobody benefits from free trade in the US, as though cheaper goods doesn’t benefit anyone. Other than forcing the Chinese to revalue their currency drastically upward, or some such idiotic idea which will never happen, what is Trump going to do about trade? He wants a 45% tariff on imports. Why is paying 45% more for things in our national interest? I don’t want to pay 45% more for things. But of course he doesn’t have anything to say about that little detail. His rant is just the vague idea of being anti-free trade as a way of standing up for our interests, so Trump’s the guy and the others are not.

    2. The GOP has largely been about using force to spread Democracy and getting lots of soldiers killed in the process. That is a bad idea and Trump is right on that.

    The lowest moment of the election was when Trump said what everyone in the country knows: that invading Iraq was a mistake. Rather than engaging the question with honest self-reflection, all of the so called “conservatives” responded with the usual “How dare he?”

    First of all, Cruz says it was a mistake. Second, spreading Democracy by force is not some longstanding Republican policy, and Cruz says it’s a mistake to try to spread Democracy with force. He talks about Rubio as a continuation of this idea, but like the typical Trumper, he ludicrously tries to pin such a policy on Cruz even though he hasn’t advocated it: Cruz might be somewhat better, but it is unclear whether he could resist the temptations of nation building and wouldn’t get bullied into trying it again. WHAT?

    He ignores the fact that Trump’s most controversial statement on Iraq is echoing the psycho loony left claim that Bush lied us into Iraq.

    3. He’s against cultural conservatives. Wait I thought Trump is a cultural conservative now! He’s evolved like Reagan.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  38. aphrael–

    (or anyone who can get past the NYT paywall)

    There’s a nice little delegate calculator at

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/02/us/super-tuesday-results-delegates.html

    although the GOP primary rules introduce quite a bit of fuzz. The Dems use proportionate elections throughout (fairness!) and then use superdelegates to, um, trump.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  39. Not much to add, except that a lot of Trump’s appeal is that he is the frontrunner and a “winner.” If he were losing the popular vote and delegate counts (which would happen if “not Trump” were not fractured several ways), that narrative would be destroyed.

    The question would then be, “Why should anyone support the #2 guy who has 65% negative ratings and loses to Hillary in the general?”

    bridget (37b281)

  40. He’s evolved like Reagan.

    He evolves like a mayfly.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  41. “John Hayward on Tech Mogul Conspiracy to Stop Trump: ‘This Is Exactly What Trump Voters Are Rebelling Against’”

    “This is exactly what Trump voters are rebelling against … they hate this idea that this oligarchy run the country, that the Democrats and a big chunk of Republicans are in league with each other, that there’s a continuum now between the left and the right in this business class, and they’re going to protect their interests above all else,” Hayward explained. “And they see Trump as the guy who can break all that. Whatever flaws they point out, the people just love him all the more. Nothing is stopping this march across the country.”

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/09/john-hayward-on-tech-mogul-conspiracy-to-stop-trump/

    sound awake (04e750)

  42. Stage One thinking, like Mexicans who celebrate the victory of Cinco de Mayo (one battle) in a war they actually lost

    So the French won that war? Or do you mean “lost” in the sense that they would be better off ruled by the French than by their own corrupt subsequent regimes?

    WTP (fd3093)

  43. Yes but superdelegates are a weak shield wall, as we found out last time.

    narciso (732bc0)

  44. Well, shield walls never stand up to atomics, as the Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV found out.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  45. So the French won that war? Or do you mean “lost” in the sense that they would be better off ruled by the French than by their own corrupt subsequent regimes?

    Yes the French won. They installed their own government over Mexico. Appointed an Emperor. Maximilian.

    Would have lasted forever probably, except that the Civil War ended, Andrew Johnson was finally voted out, and President Grant wanted to fight about it.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  46. The Mexicans would have been better off joining the US right about then. Not as 40 states, but maybe as 10.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  47. Well, ok. I get your point. But somebody needs to fix Wiki per:

    Date 8 December 1861 – 21 June 1867
    Location Mexico
    Result
    Mexican republican victory

    Establishment, then fall, of the Second Mexican Empire
    French withdrawal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_intervention_in_Mexico

    Though I suppose in the end we’re all dead so…go Trump!

    Yes, a joke. For the humor impiared.

    WTP (fd3093)

  48. I would certainly like to see Rubios cuban heels thoroughly flattened., but I don’t hink it follows that those votes would have or will tilt to Cruz and not Trump.

    SarahW (67599f)

  49. I agree with Paul Rahe. We can elect Cruz if we act quickly, but the people are very angry. If the GOPE tries to win, they will lose … and lose big.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  50. I’m curious what others think: Would Rubio require a promise that he would be selected as Cruz’s VP if he dropped out? Would, or should, Cruz agree?

    DRJ (76a58a)

  51. I have a question for the Trump supporters.

    If there’s a brokered convention and Cruz wins, will you not vote for him?

    Because I don’t like Trump because his entire life history convinces me he’s no conservative.

    A lot, not all but a lot, of Trump supporters claim to be conservatives. Do you have the same doubt about Cruz that I have about Trump?

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  52. “Why Rubio and Kasich Must Be Crushed.”

    Harsh. And quite Trumpian. Make book. 2016 tickets:

    Trump/Kasich vs. Clinton/Castro.

    Trump wins by 2.6% pop. vote.

    Pragmatic ‘common sense conservatism’ sweeps Reagan era ‘conservative ideology’ into the dustbin of history. And all will be right with the world.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  53. The not-Cruz and not-Trump votes when migrating have been migrating to not-Trump by about 4 to 1. Meaning that Cruz will pickup about 80% of those votes if the trend holds.

    The trend may not hold: every state is different, some of those migrating votes may dislike Cruz as much as Trump. However the strongly dislike Trump favor ability within the Republican party is much greater than strongly dislike Ted Cruz among those who have not yet picked one of those two …

    And some may just sit out.

    But on the whole, based on actual migration of votes to date as well as poll d stated 2nd choice preferences, Ted wins big when Rubio drops out.

    So, everyone pretending to wring their hands over where those votes are going can either declare themselves the Trump concern trolls that they are, or bank the happy news and start convincing people to vote Cruz.

    PrincetonAl (abbc41)

  54. Hey. What about if Donald Trump is 7 votes shy coming to convention and Ben Carson releases his votes to put him over the top?

    What’s the rule on that? Is it even possible?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  55. I don’t think it is a forgone conclusion that the leader going into the convention must be given the nod. If Trump is 120 shy of the needed majority, say 1130, and Cruz is 150 shy, say 1100, and the convention politicking is open and transparent, for example, let’s say Rubio releases his delegates to vote their conscience, then the story becomes understandable and interesting. I don’t know enough about the convention rules to know if this is possible, but it would remove the stigma that will attend Hillary!’s coronation in the other convention.

    I hope the Democrat Convention is making plans to deal with some significant street violence. Their current travesty reminds me of 1968. It will depend upon whether the inner cities will tolerate or even encourage Baltimore-like violence over the next few months. Of course, Hillary!’s current faction was the underground organizational group back in the day, and there’s no indication that Bernie’s kids have the needed love of chaos, nor the proper understanding of its use to achieve political ends. But we know the inner cities are manipulated like puppets dancing to Democrat orders, and who knows what the puppet masters will think beneficial.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  56. Not on the first ballot, and I think after the first ballot the delegates decide for themselves. They can follow the request of the candidate they were pledged to but I don’t think they have to.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  57. 49. I agree with Paul Rahe. We can elect Cruz if we act quickly, but the people are very angry. If the GOPE tries to win, they will lose … and lose big.

    DRJ (76a58a) — 3/9/2016 @ 11:03 am

    I’m curious about the Trump supporters, DRJ.

    What is it exactly that they want?

    I understand the anger part. Got it. But other than that.

    Cruz is my choice because I’m angry about that, and I want something else instead. And I can articulate what I want instead.

    I have yet to hear a Trump supporter do that. They seem to like the fact he’s vague. He’s going to make a deal, whatever that deal is cool, fine, it’s going to be beautiful, like the Taj Mahal, the best deal, they’re going to love it, because, The Donald!

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  58. To me conservatism is basically honesty. Honesty in your dealings with your fellow man be it in business, politics, in campaigns. Fair price, fair value.

    Sorry, but Cruz hasn’t been cloaking himself in glory on that account.

    Besides the point, you’re kidding yourselves if you think somehow crushing Kasich and Rubio in their “winner take all” home states, will allow Cruz to mop up the leavings in the deep purple primaries.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  59. Trump is a proven, habitual con man and you think Cruz is the problem? This won’t end well.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  60. I’m curious what others think: Would Rubio require a promise that he would be selected as Cruz’s VP if he dropped out? Would, or should, Cruz agree?

    DRJ (76a58a) — 3/9/2016 @ 11:12 am

    Cruz asking Rubio to bow-out is not the same as making it happen.

    Putting together a Cruz/Rubio coalition is Cruz’s challenge and there is plenty of common ground (and deals) to make that happen. If Cruz needs to make Rubio support him before FL , then yes, Rubio is going to require a VP guarantee (I would think).

    …and not a bad idea IMHO (thinking stage 3): two Hispanic men makes the Democrats racists if they don’t vote for them (heh.) One strong conservative and one that appeals to women, and Florida.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  61. I see them as a strong team, too.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  62. And it guarantees Hillary would have to pick Castro, which I think would ultimately be a net negative for that ticket.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  63. I wonder if papertiger is a used car salesman.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  64. I’m curious about the Trump supporters, DRJ.

    What is it exactly that they want?

    I understand the anger part. Got it. But other than that.

    I believe they want a tough talking conservative Stecve57. But I think they want someone NOT in politics. Cruz is the real conservative but he is in politics so like it or not he can be perceived as an insider and part of the problem. Trump is just a loud-mouthed bellicose outsider, not a politician.

    Rev. TrusTED Hoagie ™ (eb7063)

  65. 50. I’m curious what others think: Would Rubio require a promise that he would be selected as Cruz’s VP if he dropped out? Would, or should, Cruz agree?

    That or Secretary of State or an equally big plum, is my guess. As Pons noted, the earlier Cruz wants Rubio to drop, the bigger the enticement has to be. (Conversely, the longer Rubio stays in, the less he’s probably going to get for dropping out.)

    Mitch (341ca0)

  66. This “Mexican” says no double Cuban. And most of us arent as against Cubans as the press or others would have you believe. I just think the Dems would court a Blue-Dog or an African American for the VP (or the Presidency i/c/o a Hillary indictment) in an attempt to wrangle up butt-hurt Trump supporters.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  67. Steve57

    I will vote for any R Presidential ticket that doesn’t start with the initials “MR” and an abreviation of mister doesn’t count.

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  68. Papertiger,

    I think Cruz has been very honest, particularly in the way he’s handled himself in office.

    I know a lot of his opponents have seized on how Cruz polls a lot better on honesty than, say, Rubio and Trump, and have decided to repeatedly assert Cruz is a liar, but that doesn’t actually make it so. Carson’s waffling about dropping out was Carson’s fault, and shame on him for not owning up. Yesterday the Trump fans were up in arms about the claim some of Rubio’s advisors want him to drop before Florida’s primary. They said it proves once again what a liar Cruz is. Today we learn that some of Rubio’s advisors are indeed advising him to drop early.

    It’s LBJ style mud slinging. Even making Cruz deny he is dishonest is enough to taint him in the eyes of those who see conspiracies everywhere.

    But it’s also a fundamentally dishonest way to campaign.

    When is Trump going to campaign on the issues? Immigration, for example. Trump has repeatedly contradicted the immigration proposal on his website. He has been vague to the extreme on his health care views. Whenever he is challenged on any political issue, he winds up attacking the questioner or opponent as nasty, loser, dishonest, or female. When people ask Trump about his hiding of tax returns, or his university, or his chinese clothing manufacturers, he doesn’t respond with information. He responds with anger. I gave Trump the time of day because I’m fed up with the establishment. I wasn’t as familiar as many are with him because I don’t watch TV. But I realized quickly that Trump is deeply unethical and unlikely to even be ideological at all. That Trump’s fans would bash Cruz over integrity, after what we’ve seen from Cruz on the hill is very disappointing. Our Senators might as well behave like Rubio if they don’t get credit for behaving like Cruz!

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  69. This year is a great example of why I believe that our election processes (especially primaries) should be changed to a preferential ranking of candidates rather than just pick-one. I would think it much better to go with someone who is the combined #1 and #2 (and beyond if needed to reach such consensus) choice of a majority than the candidate who is a 40% plurality if only first-choice picks are considered.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  70. Trump is a proven, habitual con man and you think Cruz is the problem?

    Maybe, maybe not, but here we are on the website of a fairly partisan Cruizer, kind of high profile, discussing, as if it were a possibility, how Ted Cruz can trick his way to a nomination via the back door, or if the public would revolt at being treated so shoddily.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  71. DRJ

    I’ve never seen the George C Scott movie (IIRC) The Flim Flam Man but my dad likes to quote it.

    A guy tells him he serves no useful purpose and he says,”After I get done with them they’re awfully tough to swindle.”

    On the Cruz side I think about My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the mom says,” Men are the head but women are the neck. The neck turns the head.”. Heidi Cruz ain’t exactly bakin’ cookies like Tammie Wynette.

    There you go.

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  72. Trump gets more delegates and canada turd crud wins? Get your head out of cruds butt unless your a crud suppository.

    trump 1 (e9a50a)

  73. Maybe, maybe not, but here we are on the website of a fairly partisan Cruizer, kind of high profile, discussing, as if it were a possibility, how Ted Cruz can trick his way to a nomination via the back door, or if the public would revolt at being treated so shoddily.

    That.

    WTP (fd3093)

  74. Maybe, maybe not, but here we are on the website of a fairly partisan Cruizer, kind of high profile, discussing, as if it were a possibility, how Ted Cruz can trick his way to a nomination via the back door, or if the public would revolt at being treated so shoddily.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 3/9/2016 @ 12:17 pm

    I can’t figure out if you’re trying to put words in Patterico’s mouth or Cruz’s.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  75. #51, Steve, I’m a reliable GOP vote for the party’s nominee, but only so long as the selection process is on the up and up. I won’t vote for a fraud. Make sure the process is fair and honest and you can count on me: Trump or Cruz.

    ropelight (c59a12)

  76. papertiger, Cruz has gotten hit with a bunch of BS charges. Trump, and Rubio, have proved the point that if you fling enough feces eventually something may stick.

    But it’s all still feces.

    The main charges seem to be that Cruz fired his communications director because the man “lied” about some comment Rubio made about the Bible.

    No, he fired the guy because he said something at all about the Bible. Even if it had been true Cruz said he would have fired the guy. He said that kind of thing was a major error in judgement. It wouldn’t have mattered one way or the other if Rubio had something to say about the Bible.

    It has nothing to do with his campaign.

    Then of course there was the dust up in Iowa. Common knowledge would lead you to believe Cruz “lied” about Carson suspending his campaign. And then apologized after he was caught. I prefer a different term for common knowledge. I call it ignorance in circulation.

    Cruz never apologized for passing along the CNN report about Carson leaving the campaign trail. What he apologized for was his campaign failing to pass along the Carson campaign’s correction to that story.

    Cruz’s mistake was thinking CNN had their facts straight. To be honest, this isn’t a mistake I would have made. Recall the 2002 op-ed Eason Jordan, then head of CNN, wrote for the NYT. I believe it was titled The Truth We Kept To Ourselves. Or, something close. Basically he was begging for forgiveness because CNN had to carry Sadam Hussein’s undiluted propaganda or otherwise their local Iraqi employees would have been at risk.

    You want to know how not to put Iraqi lives in danger if you’re a news organization? Don’t have a Baghdad bureau.

    Then Eason Jordan piped up at Davos that the US military was targeting “journalists.” I put that in scare quotes because I got the impression that he was including CNN employees in that group. If you served, you know. We have more important things to do.

    Basically I only watch CNN in airport departure lounges, and only if I don’t have a book. But when I do watch it I occasionally think to myself, “That’s interesting. I wonder if a single word was true.”

    So I fault the Cruz campaign for that error in judgement; thinking a single word was true. Not a mistake I would have made.

    But, a couple of facts leap out.

    One, people are doing to Cruz exactly what they say he’s guilty of but isn’t.

    Two, how lousy must the Carson campaign’s internal communications have been? It was really pathetic when Carson demanded that Cruz “fix” the damage. Ben, you can’t talk to your own campaign workers? You need Ted to do that?

    I like Dr. Carson, don’t get me wrong. But I think we all know know, they must have been pretty lousy. When he did announce he was quitting, finally, it still wasn’t crystal clear what he was saying.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  77. #68
    I’ve long preferred a 5-3-1 points (5 for 1st choice, 3 for second choice, 1 for third) selection process. But such would only work for a national presidential primary day or at most 4 regional elections over a 6 week period since by as early as Easter and certainly by CA’s date, the field maybe winnowed to 3 or less.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  78. DRJ asked (#50):

    Would Rubio require a promise that he would be selected as Cruz’s VP if he dropped out? Would, or should, Cruz agree?

    I’ve been urging a “Cruz/Rubio unity ticket” since South Carolina, but it frankly seems a lot less attractive now than it did to me ten days ago.

    I thought that besides eliminating Rubio as a competitor, Rubio’s active campaigning with Cruz could probably vault Cruz ahead of Trump in FL in these primaries, and that it would probably secure FL for the GOP in the general election as well. Otherwise it didn’t make much sense: As I’ve seen others observe (can’t recall whom, wouldn’t be surprised if it was DRJ), Cruz-Rubio, featuring two Cuban-American junior senators from the South, would look a lot like Clinton-Gore in term of electoral college/demographics imbalance.

    But the main thing I thought such a deal would facilitate and accelerate was the rallying around Cruz of conventional and establishment GOP voters, along with establish GOP politicians and opinion leaders. I thought that would, in turn, demonstrate to Kasich that his fantasy of being anointed by GOP establishment buddies at the convention were empty fantasies, resulting in his voluntary withdrawal.

    I’m no longer convinced that Rubio could do either of those things: It might be too late, and he might be too tarnished now by his string of electoral fizzles; his wins in MN and Puerto Rico mean almost nothing for the general election; and I don’t know if there’s enough time left for him to have much impact in moving his supporters to Cruz instead of to Trump if Rubio drops out. You can’t just do that kind of deal two days before the vote, and with early voting in FL still continuing, that kind of attempted transference becomes less and less feasible with, literally, every passing hour.

    Now, I’m inclined to think that Cruz ought to no more than dangle the possibility of a Veep designation to Rubio at the convention, with no guarantees. If Rubio dropped out himself, but then actively campaigned for Cruz in FL (and, to a token extent, in OH), then he might earn a more favorable consideration for the Veep spot by the time of the convention.

    Despite the Reagan-Schweikert precedent, there is still a strong tradition against a major-party candidate announcing a VP choice before the convention. It’s the single most valuable assets in a new nominee’s political portfolio. And it would have costs as well as potential benefits: One need look no farther than the comments in this blog, for example, to find people who are categorically, unalterably opposed to Rubio, and who would transfer that opposition to a Cruz-Rubio pre-announced ticket now. The Gang of Eight story is a big, heavy piece of baggage — especially in GOP primaries.

    Occasionally I get a prospective client whose case is already so messed up before he walks in the door that the best scenario I can lay out for him is a “controlled capitulation”: If I’m worth hiring, I tell them, it would only be because I might be able to negotiate for a fig leaf or two and a smooth wind-up — basically the equivalent of Gen. Lee walking away from Appomattox with a few weeks rations’ for his starving troops, plus the right of his men to keep their small arms and horses for post-war civilian uses.

    I think Rubio’s in just about that poor a negotiating position, so if I were advising him, I’d argue that he ought not ask for anything more than a chance of serious Veep consideration at the convention. And if I were advising Cruz, I think that’s all I’d recommend that he offer.

    Even so, Rubio ought to drop out and bust his butt to help Cruz — if not for Cruz sake, or for the greater goal of stopping Trump, then to salvage the little bit of dignity and future career potential that’s left for Rubio. Otherwise, Rubio’s worst-case scenario is now also his most probable scenario: He stays in the race, takes the blame for Trump winning FL, and goes down in history as the guy who could’ve maybe stopped Trump but didn’t because he was too selfish.

    Kasich is a very different story. Dana, I think, remarked last night on how entitled Kasich seems to be, how he seems to think that because he was one of Gingrich’s lieutenants back in the 1990s and he’s a popular governor now in a swing state, he’s owed the nomination. He’s got people like David Brooks telling him how outrageous it is that he’s not already the consensus choice of the GOP, and he’s yet to realize that this has always been destined to be the Year of the Outsider — the very things he thinks of as his features are seen by the GOP electorate (even exclusive of the non-Republicans Trump may have attracted) as bugs.

    I think there’s no hope of Kasich deciding to drop out while Rubio’s still in. But if Rubio dropped out and endorsed Cruz, perhaps the more realistic voices to whom Kasich listens, if any, could persuade Kasich that he has some value to the GOP as a governor working hard to secure Ohio for the GOP in the general election, but he has no value to anyone as the turd in the punchbowl, which is the position he’s now reveling in.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  79. So if Ted Cruz was the result of a fling or a short-term relationship, would the citizenship debate be much more subdued, since the father would not be on record, and he might be Edward __________ instead of Rafael E. Cruz? If he was the same accomplished person, it might be story similar to Ben Carson (i.e. raised in a single-parent household etc.).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  80. 77 – this, that and then some. Good analysis and gaming. But the reality is maybe Cruz – with or without Rubio anywhere nearby as VP or probable SOS – faces a anti-hispanic ceiling. It wouldnt be totally unjustified – even stalwarts like Raul Labrador have been squishy in certain things lately.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  81. Second, spreading Democracy by force is not some longstanding Republican policy, and Cruz says it’s a mistake to try to spread Democracy with force.

    It occurs to me that Republicans are declaiming each other’s views on foreign policy with the kind of venom that might be reserved by:

    1) Progressives for damn near anyone who contradicts them; and
    2) ISIS, ditto the above.

    C’mon guys. Get it together.

    JP (bd5dd9)

  82. stage one is we make America great again!

    stage two is we do a lil dance! oh yeah c’mon baby churn that butter

    happyfeet (831175)

  83. if lil roob roob can’t dick joke his way to a victory in his home state then he’s worthless as a veep

    he brings nothing to the party

    nothing

    happyfeet (831175)

  84. @ papertiger (#53), who asked:

    What about if Donald Trump is 7 votes shy coming to convention and Ben Carson releases his votes to put him over the top?

    What’s the rule on that? Is it even possible?

    I’m treating this as a serious and sincere question. I welcome corrections or amplifications by others, because I’m giving you my best explanation off the top of my head, without doing any confirming research.

    There’s no single rule on this, and it’s not determined by the Republican National Committee but rather by each state’s rules or statutes governing the selection and conduct of delegates. The members of each state’s delegation are bound to cast their first ballot in accordance with that state’s rules and the type of primary or caucus it’s held, but the actual individuals selected as delegates may have zero loyalty — and in fact, active hostility — to the candidate whom they’re legally bound to vote for on the first ballot. And because of the way the delegates are selected, they tend to be long-time party activists, meaning that very large numbers of the delegates that Trump is winning now will be free and eager to vote for someone else if he can’t deliver a first-ballot majority to grab the nomination.

    A very few states impose further obligations beyond the first ballot.

    But in general, then, for example, delegates pledged to Carson are obliged to vote for him on the first ballot (at least until the point at which someone has reached a majority, when typically all commitments are released and the candidate is nominated by [phony] acclamation. Carson can’t release them from that legal obligation; nor are his wishes in any way binding upon them (however persuasive they might be) after the first ballot.

    All that said: The RNC’s rules that require some sort of proportionate rewards scheme before March 15th, with winner-take-all contests increasing in frequency thereafter, were specifically crafted to encourage a “bandwagon effect,” that is, to make it highly likely that some candidate will come to the convention with a majority. The GOP definitely wants to avoid big conflict in the convention, as a general rule, because they’d rather have the party united around someone going into the convention rather than people storming out in a snit (e.g., to a third-party rump convention).

    The Dems, by contrast, stay mostly with proportionate delegate awards all the way up to the convention, plus they have a bigger fudge factor in the number and freedom they accord to their super-delegates (which aren’t selected based on primaries or caucuses, but rather are plums awarded to party bigshots). This makes the Dems, in general, more susceptible to convention shenanigans, which Clinton can and will turn to if Bernie ever manages to pose a serious threat to win the Dem nomination.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  85. 54 Bobstewartathome

    Maybe when Bernie’s supporters get Berned by the Superdelegates we can start #handsupdontvote

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  86. 77. Kasich is a very different story.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 3/9/2016 @ 12:57 pm

    I liked the early ’90s Kasich. The 2016 Kasich, not really.

    It’s especially irritating to hear him talk about expanding Medicaid being his key to slipping past St. Peter and into heaven.

    It makes me want to slap him with a Bible and read him the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.

    Maybe I’ll send him a coloring book.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  87. I think there’s no hope of Kasich deciding to drop out while Rubio’s still in. But if Rubio dropped out and endorsed Cruz, perhaps the more realistic voices to whom Kasich listens, if any, could persuade Kasich that he has some value to the GOP as a governor working hard to secure Ohio for the GOP in the general election, but he has no value to anyone as the turd in the punchbowl, which is the position he’s now reveling in.
    Beldar (fa637a) — 3/9/2016 @ 12:57 pm

    From what I’ve seen of Kasich, I don’t think he is going to drop out until too late to do Cruz any good, if he needs it. Maybe he would be willing to help take Ohio as VP candidate.
    But I’m not sure how popular he is among Repubs in Ohio c/w Cruz. I’m sure he is more popular than Rubio in FL, but there are people in Ohio that didn’t like his medicaid expansion, etc.

    But then I think he was hoping to do better in MI than a close 3rd.
    But yes, I certainly could be wrong.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  88. Doc, I hope I didn’t offend. I wouldn’t actually slap anyone with a Bible.

    When someone comes along and states or implies I’m going to go to h3ll if I don’t advocate this government policy or that government policy, I react negatively.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  89. You didn’t offend.
    And I wouldn’t necessarily promise to never smack anyone with a Bible,
    there is one reason I was taught to,
    and other reasons I can ponder.
    There are far worse things that can happen to a person than getting smacked directly between the eyes with a Bible, hard cover, even.

    I totally disagreed with his Scriptural text-proofing his socialism as well, especially with the what appeared to me as a self-righteous tone that said if one disagreed one was evil,
    at least the times I heard him on it, it sounded that way.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  90. 31.What can Cruz offer them to drop out? (Not that they’re in it for payoffs, but come on.)

    With Rubio, I think he would take the VP slot if that’s not going to Carly
    ……………………………………………………………………

    Cruz can offer Rubio and Kasich parting gifts, but really Cruz is smarter than a Rubio VP or a Fiorina VP. Cruz will pick top notch military presence with a VP….REMEMBER, one of Cruz’s items of agenda is TERM LIMITS. Cruz wont pick a VP based on the automatic gim-me presidency.

    All of you seem to underestimate Cruz’s smarts and principles that he wont compromise.

    If America picks Trump which would be like picking Kim Kardashian to NE president then America will have another miserable term.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  91. Electing Trump would be no different than electing Kim Kardashians. Like Donald she has been given a nice deck of cards to play with , BUT that doesn’t mean we should all follow her into the gutter. And the thing is,…. Trump isn’t even the biggest problem here. The biggest problem is the Trump voter. An uninformed, emotional voter, and because they want to be part of the trendy pop cult, will force us all to go down with the sinking ship!

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  92. Killing all the other alternatives to be the only *whatever* is a very risky strategy. It’s what the Communists did in Weimar Germany, and look what that got them. I don’t know that it has ever worked.

    I would rather see Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio make a deal over the March 15 primaries: Cruz and Kasich support Rubio in Florida, Cruz and Rubio support Kasich in Ohio, Kasich and Rubio support Cruz in Illinois, Missouri, and North Carolina. If they do that, Rubio wins Florida, Kasich wins Ohio, Cruz wins Illinois, Missouri, and North Carolina, and Trump folds up like a matchbook cover.

    Cruz would then be the front runner; Rubio and Kasich would still be plausible, which is better than they are now. There would still be plenty of time to resolve things during the primaries.

    The alternative is fratricide among the anti-Trumps, so that Trump cruises to the nomination.

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)

  93. I’d hit him with a different book. But, yeah, when you put it that way I have to confess that sometimes some people need to get hit between the eyes with a Bible.

    I’m probably one of them.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  94. #90 jrt for Cruz — An uninformed, emotional voter, and because they want to be part of the trendy pop cult, will force us all to go down with the sinking ship!

    Lol, you just described 80% of the electorate.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  95. Regarding Patterico’s strategy, I agree with it. My take is that if it stays a 4-way contest, Trump has the larger base so he’ll probably win. If Rubio and Kasich drop out, Cruz might still lose due to not all of their voters going to him (he needs a larger cut of them than Trump gets). However, I this “might lose” is better odds than “probably lose”. I also

    One huge factor that no one is really talking about yet: California. It’s at the end of the primaries, but has 172 delegates and it’s winner take all. It’s also a state that had Cruz ahead in the most recent poll, in January, at 25 for him, 23 for Trump.

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  96. Would Rubio require a promise that he would be selected as Cruz’s VP if he dropped out? Would, or should, Cruz agree?Yes and yes.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  97. The self delusion among the cruzers is sort of cute. Dead wrong but cute in a rubio sort of way.

    spokanebob (e5e3ec)

  98. Looking at the NY Times delegate calculator, in the “Rubio and Kasich drop out after March 15″ scenario, where Trump is spotted Florida and Ohio delegates, Cruz has to win out about 55-45 the rest of the way to be leading going into the convention.

    To have an absolute majority going in, he has to win out 75-25, which is unlikely without a Trump collapse.

    But if Trump can be held to 40%. which means he attracts no new adherents, Cruz goes to the convention with a commanding lead that would require the GOPe’s connivance to give it to Trump.

    There is also the matter of the 250 or so uncommitted delegates from the Rubio, Kasich, etc columns. Presumably some of them would vote for the leader.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  99. You want to know what is even cuter, spokanebob?

    Now is the perfect time to secede. The US just doesn’t win wars anymore.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  100. It’s funny, but California and New Jersey might be important for both parties.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  101. Steve,

    From your lips to San Francisco’s ears.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  102. papertiger,

    I believe Trump is a proven, habitual con man but I understand you don’t feel that way. He may be proven in my opinion and in the court of public opinion, but your opinion can certainly vary. My opinion is based on the fact he has been involved in numerous failed public ventures that bear the features of cons/scams.

    In addition, I also think he is a con man because this is how Trump defines con man:

    1. As evidenced by his duplicity on several subjects, Trump doesn’t seem to believe everything he says — even though he pretends he cares deeply, and

    2. Trump gets money from his campaign, so he has a self-interest to con people instead of actual concern for the public interest. According to Trump, we should also look at his tax returns and bank accounts to see if he has a reason to need money. Of course, he won’t show us his tax returns, but there are reasons to think he has/makes much less money than he claims, and

    3. Like “professional con men,” Trump uses the media to “turn things around” and make himself look good.

    Why do these things matter? Because these are the criteria Trump himself uses to define what con men do. They sound familiar, don’t they?

    DRJ (15874d)

  103. He learned from the master: Al Sharpton.

    DRJ (15874d)

  104. #94 Arizona CJ, now that is interesting.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  105. This is amazing to imagine but California conservatives need to Organize for Cruz. You might make a difference!

    DRJ (15874d)

  106. 101. papertiger,

    I believe Trump is a proven, habitual con man but I understand you don’t feel that way. He may be proven in my opinion and in the court of public opinion, but your opinion can certainly vary. My opinion is based on the fact he has been involved in numerous failed public ventures that bear the features of cons/scams…

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/9/2016 @ 3:41 pm

    Have you ever argued with someone who insisted OJ was innocent? Yeah, like that.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  107. In other news, FBI director Comey is becoming a “political problem.”

    Imagine that. Him thinking that no one is too big to prosecute.

    Whoulda thought?

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  108. Good question.

    David Burge ‏@iowahawkblog 9h9 hours ago

    I wonder who President Trump will appoint as US Secretary of Libel Suits
    77 retweets 100 likes

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  109. Your future preezy, Trumpsters.

    https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/

    In reply to Adam Steinbaugh
    David Burge ‏@iowahawkblog 9h9 hours ago

    .@adamsteinbaugh “…and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the US”

    Trump said in an interview that he couldn’t win the suit but brought anyway to make a point. “I spent a couple of bucks on legal fees, and they spent a whole lot more. I did it to make his life miserable, which I’m happy about.”

    Spoken like the kind of guy who’d screw over his own handicapped grand nephew.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  110. I’m not sure either Florida or Ohio will go to Trump, whether or not Rubio and Kasich are still in it. if so few people in Florida like Rubio, and it being far from kasich territory, Cruz might win it, especially as he is putting a lot of energy into it.
    If Kasich has enough pull in Ohio to get even 40%, he might beat Trump.

    Not saying this is going to happen, just sayi8ng I’m not quick to assume anything,
    so, hey,
    maybe the best idea is to vote for the one who one thinks is best.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  111. So in addition to Neil Bush, it looks like Cruz has added all of Jeb’s! financial team to his campaign.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  112. 109 Steve57

    Its unconstitutional to bring a lawsuit you know you can’t win? Sounds like we need legal reform or less lawyers.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  113. Uhh, no. It’s unethical. Question? Would you sue someone just because you know you’re rich enough to get away with being a, well, you know what.

    Would you do it?

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  114. I guess you got me, pinandpuller. Iowahawk didn’t use the exact words I would have used.

    He expressed my sentiment. Donald Trump is a, you know what.

    So OK, you win if you like. I’ll buy you an ice cream cone.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  115. What a loser. He brought a frivolous lawsuit that was thrown out, and then tried to make it look like he won. If he paid only “a couple of bucks” it’s because he got a lawyer who was naive enough not to ask for a big retainer and then stiffed him on the bill. Like he stiffs other people he does business with. Loser.

    nk (dbc370)

  116. nk, the invite is still open. What do the Trumpsters like about Trump. As opposed to disliking about the Republicans. I still want to know.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  117. It wasn’t just one, nk.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  118. He’s popular because of his talk about illegal immigration. And I don’t blame the people who believe him. Whom else are they going to believe over him? Republicans? They’ve been talking the talk for years and years but where’s the walk? Trump may be the opportunistic infection but the GOP is the acquired immune deficiency.
    http://patterico.com/2016/03/08/donald-trump-shocked-that-americans-are-disturbed-by-the-candidate-requesting-supporters-raise-their-arms-in-allegiance-to-him/#comment-1847109

    nk (dbc370)

  119. @ Rich Rostrom (#91), who wrote:

    I would rather see Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio make a deal over the March 15 primaries: Cruz and Kasich support Rubio in Florida, Cruz and Rubio support Kasich in Ohio, Kasich and Rubio support Cruz in Illinois, Missouri, and North Carolina. If they do that, Rubio wins Florida, Kasich wins Ohio, Cruz wins Illinois, Missouri, and North Carolina, and Trump folds up like a matchbook cover.

    This seems superficially attractive, but with due respect, I believe it can never work. It’s way too cute.

    It presumes that very large blocks of voters are capable of saying to themselves, “I support X, who’s telling me to vote for Y, without really supporting him, so I can then vote later for either X or maybe Y after they’ve knocked out Z.” That’s practical but profoundly cynical; it’s inconsistent with the idealism that a candidate ought to express and adhere to, and that a voter wants to see in his candidate in order to feel like his votes are being cast righteously rather than cynically.

    Even if the candidates felt free to make this kind of deal — and they’ve all rejected this kind of cuteness, even when urged to embrace it by establishment GOP types (most recently Mittens) — and even if they tried in good faith to make good on their respective commitments as to where and when they each respectively intend to take a dive, nevertheless, a wholly insufficient number of voters would go along with the game, and a significant number would be permanently offended by it.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  120. honestly, the sea island conference showed instead of closing ranks behind cruz, the powers that be, would rather try the splinter which obviously doesn’t work, take up their stupidity, or enemy action,

    narciso (732bc0)

  121. Last night, I heard pundit Charles Lane suggest on Fox News that Ted Cruz’ opening new offices in FL to compete with Rubio there was a “dastardly scheme.”

    Seriously, that’s the phrase he used to describe a candidate for president trying to be competitive in the third most populous state in the nation.

    As if Cruz owed Rubio some duty to take a dive there, to maximize Rubio’s fading chances of staying in the race.

    What a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say in a Donald Trump accent. (Or is Trump imitating Bugs Bunny?)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  122. narciso, that’s an annual gathering, of course, from which there are plentiful leaks despite its supposed “off the record” nature. I’ve heard very conflicting reports about what was discussed in and outside of the closed-door sessions. But the one thing everyone seems to be clear on is that Tom Cotton gave Apple CEO Tim Cook such a tongue-lashing over Apple’s “we’re-above-the-law” righteousness that it made a whole lot of other business leaders intensely uncomfortable.

    WTG, Tom Cotton!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  123. Mea culpa, FL is still #4 in population, behind CA, TX & NY.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  124. well I don’t trust cook any farther then I can throw him, but seeing as they broke the chain of evidence and called off haney’s probe into hizbu tahir, I don’t trust inspector dreyfus, either,

    narciso (732bc0)

  125. It’s one thing to drop out of the race and throw your support to a particular candidate. It’s another thing completely for 3 candidates to selectively shift their support to undermine a 4th candidate. The supporters of the 4th candidate would not like that, and I wouldn’t blame them.

    DRJ (15874d)

  126. among many reason I don’t trust the good inspector, 12 years ago, tomorrow, the nsa surveilance was set to lapse, the whole episode with ashcroft where he ‘spoke truth to power’ the next day, the bombs went off in madrid,

    narciso (732bc0)

  127. How many different screen names of Trumpers here are all attributable to one person? I think it could be 10 or more.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  128. “Trump Steaks” in a league of their own — USDA Prime Certified Anus.

    nk (dbc370)

  129. So Trump is more or less ethical than his lawyer (and firm) who brought the case?

    If I had FU money there’s no telling what I’d do. I’d probably be like the guy in Detroit that put the middle finger sculpture up next door to his ex wife.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  130. The Trump Steaks were actually from a company called — I kid you not — “Bush Bros.”

    (Hattip Jonah Goldberg, who makes excellent points about the double-standard whereby Trump gets away with lying continuously, but no one else can.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  131. when Mr. Trump is president i’m a have steak every friday in his honor and make extra too for so that way maybe i can get a eurotrash hooker wife to love me

    hello eurotrash hooker how do you like your steak I have extra wanna come over?

    nobody has to be lonely ever again!

    you just have to make the votings for Mr. The Donald (and get checked to make sure you don’t have hereditary hemochromatosis)

    happyfeet (831175)

  132. Nk

    If y’all want Trump to start losing, convince him to let a lawyer handle his campaign.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  133. Steve57

    Re ice cream:

    Michael Savage calls Rubio the ice cream man so it sounds imminently feasible.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  134. #130

    Speaking of Trump and money, Trump Received Tax Credit for Middle Class Taxpayers

    In three consecutive years, Donald Trump has received a property tax credit for people with incomes of less $500,000.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  135. @ pinpuller: There is a reason lawyers are called “mouthpieces” and “hired guns.”

    We’re agents. Trump is a principal. He pays the piper, and he calls the tune; I wouldn’t dance to it, and for that reason he’d certainly never try to hire me, and there’s not enough gold in Fort Knox, much less Trump Tower, to make me agree to represent him.

    But my profession is not a terribly exclusive club, and there are plenty of lawyers eager to take Trump’s money, ethics and propriety be damned.

    You probably think, simultaneously, that (a) lawyers are scum and (b) Trump’s incredibly clever for using lawyers as a tool of personal vengeance and oppression.

    You say if you had “FU money” there’s no telling what you’d do. May we infer from that comment that you wish you had enough money so that you could afford to sue someone to make them miserable, the way Trump admits that he does? Tell us, do you also wish you could shout “P*SSY” on national TV in front of cringing children? Did you pump your fist in the air when Trump did that, wishing you were him?

    Or do you have a shred of decency?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  136. why is Mr. Trump a bad guy just cause of the failed fascist state of new york can’t administer its bloated corruption-riddled tax code?

    in all honesty

    the less money you give to the wealth-destroying State and the more you keep in the private sector, the better off all of us are

    this is obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis

    happyfeet (831175)

  137. Kasich is +5 in the latest Ohio poll. Go John!
    If you’re a conservative who believes that both Trump and Cruz are reprehensible candidates, then you want Kasich to compete with Cruz and Trump to the point that a brokered convention happens. There’s a schism in the GOP no matter what, and I seriously doubt that Trump or Cruz can beat the Charmless Phony in the general. Kasich beats her better than the other two.
    P.S. Rubio is done. He’s not going to lose in Florida badly and he sucked last night.

    WarrenPeese (b535a8)

  138. …But my profession is not a terribly exclusive club, and there are plenty of lawyers eager to take Trump’s money, ethics and propriety be damned.

    If it makes you feel any better, or even if it doesn’t, I’m still trying to live down Johnny Walker Red.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/29/justice/cold-war-spy-dies/index.html

    There are dirtbags and s***heels in every profession.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  139. Is it lonely on your planet, Warren?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  140. It’s very possible, I would even say very likely, that his “business losses” made his taxable income a negative number for a lot of years.

    nk (dbc370)

  141. Kasich would make a good Secretary of the Interior.

    nk (dbc370)

  142. Not lonely at all, Beldar. I fully expect to vote 3rd party this year, in protest. You would think that conservatives would have learned the Obama lesson that it’s unwise to elect a freshman Senator who couldn’t even finish his first term before his ambition overtook. You would think that conservatives wouldn’t even consider a guy like Trump, but alas. This party has gone to hell. After a quarter century of being a Republican, I’m glad I left.

    WarrenPeese (b535a8)

  143. http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/02/26/400-intel-analysts-at-centcom-warn-analytic-integrity-of-their-work-is-flawed/

    I suppose I’ll get into an argument about Breitbart being a reliable source. Breitbart isn’t the only site that reported this.

    And they will do this. You can always find people to do this. I’m with Beldar; I’d rather live out of my canoe before I’d sell myself.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  144. Kasich is the current version of the Good Government Republican, never recognizing that the bulk of his party views “good government” as an oxymoron.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  145. projection, steve, this is what they accused W of doing, obviously there were CBN stockpiles, and like the link on the other thread, salafi islamist ones,

    narciso (732bc0)

  146. Who would they appoint?

    Cruz: like Scalia
    Hillary: like Kagan
    Bernie: like Kamala Harris
    Rubio: like Roberts
    Trump: like Saul Goodman
    Kasich: like Souter

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  147. @ Kevin M: That’s the best belly laugh I’ve had today. It’s all good, man. 😀

    Beldar (fa637a)

  148. Warren, why do you think Ted Cruz is reprehensible?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  149. @ Arizona CJ (#94): I did hear someone today mention the California poll you reference, in which Cruz leads Trump.

    It was Ted Cruz, talking to Megyn Kelly, at a rally in North Carolina, as taped yesterday morning, and broadcast tonight on Megyn’s show. Great minds …. 😀

    Beldar (fa637a)

  150. I think larry wu tai chin, CIA was the worst, 33 years, then walter myers, 31 years, state, and hansen, just short of 20 years.

    narciso (732bc0)

  151. Yeah, Hansen.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  152. Steve57

    What nk said: immigration. Read America Alone by Mark Steyn or Adios America by Ann Coulter. Its the whole ball game.

    I liked Trump’s plan when he first stated it. It still sounded pretty good when Cruz appropriated it.

    I’m not sure why Cruz was aghast at Trump’s position change on H1-B Visas-it was his at one point.

    So some may argue that Trump can’t or won’t build a wall. Well, as Beldar pointed out, Cruz used to have a bit about how when he was president he knew a guy who could build his border wall. Cruz wouldn’t lie, would he? There’s already money appropriated for a fence. If Obamacare is a tax then why can’t a fence be a wall?

    I’m not too worried about his flip flop on gun control. Ronald Reagan signed a gun control bill in CA and look how flexible he was. Two decades later he was trading arms for hostages (no, can’t be right. Cruz says we don’t negotiate with terrorists. Ah-Reagan had “buffahs”.)

    I don’t really care if Trump’s “self-funded” campaign is a bit of a parlor trick. I used to work for a guy who owned a franchise that was housed in a building he owned so he was basically paying himself rent. The alternative is the guy with all the Bushes lined up behind him, and as Dave Ramsey likes to quote,”The borrower is the slave to the lender.”.

    As far as SC justices go-I think that if the R’s manage to hold back an Obama nomination they can probably hold Trump to a good jurist. I don’t think Trump would want to look bad and could he do worse than Souter or Stevens? Maybe, but the other guys were supposedly real Republicans actually making an effort.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  153. At least these people know the polls aren’t changing much:

    http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/03/09/huffpos-grim-54-private-jets-at-meeting-to-stop-trump/

    Hopefully they have something between their ears.

    DNF (755a85)

  154. Kasich denying Trump Ohio is good for Cruz and Conservatism

    Rodney King's Spirit (3adc86)

  155. Thanks for the info on Trump steaks, etc.
    Cruz (or Rubio) should have some of those items on hand and documentation of the facts, and when Trump starts to whine about others lying or whatever, enter exhibits A-D

    As far as Trump self-funding his campaign…yes, he has loaned his campaign millions of dollars, which he intends to regain with donations.

    MD not exactly in Philly (b0439a)

  156. Beldar

    I never sheltered my kids from the seven words you can’t say-or however many there are left. Frankly I’m quite taken with many from our bretheren in England such as you might call a wanker in a pub.

    I find it quite hilarious watching Are You Being Served? Are you saying you don’t want to hear about Mrs Slocum’s pussy?

    Speaking of TV-I watched The People vs OJ Simpson back to back with an episode of NYPD Blue tonight. Wow. N-bombs galore.

    Since I’m I guest I will tone it down-I was surprised but not shocked or horrified a few weeks ago when Sarah Paulson/Marcia Clark dropped the MFer. And Shapiro/Travolta dropped an Ef.

    Frankly, if I had FU or even F Me money I would live as far away from people as possible and use some of my money to get anti-SLAAP laws passed so you can sleep better at night.

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  157. 155. …I liked Trump’s plan when he first stated it. It still sounded pretty good when Cruz appropriated it…

    pinandpuller (928ad9) — 3/9/2016 @ 7:27 pm

    It’s not a plan.

    Steve57 (4d34f4)

  158. By the way, the Field Poll for the CA GOP (January) is here:

    http://www.field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2521.pdf

    It shows that Cruz was narrowly ahead of Trump, 25-23, but that was with a lot more choices. They also asked second choices and Cruz picked up a lot there.

    Interesting read, especially the crosstabs on favorability. Republicans aren’t exactly welcomed in CA, but Trump is roundly despised.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  159. Try “The Wire” for ethnic speech. Not to mention the best TV show ever made.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  160. I had completely forgotten that Donald Trump was one of the business geniuses behind the short-lived money-sucking United States Football League, and that he even had a team, the New Jersey Generals.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  161. Hey, I liked the USFL. And if it hadn’t been for the richest dumbest jury on earth, they would have cleaned up on that anti-trust suit.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  162. well the courts awarded hank greenberg, for the whole theft of AIG, so what does that tell you,

    narciso (732bc0)

  163. Why do you think the jury was dumb, Kevin M?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  164. Hmm, that got me to wondering and googling, which took me quickly to this article about that verdict. I tend to discount it pretty heavily — consider the source, first. I’m familiar with post-verdict juror interviews that can make an average juror seem pretty clueless, conflicted, and self-contradictory. Individual jurors aren’t brilliant, but juries are, collectively, often more than the sum of their parts.

    From everything else I read about the trial evidence, it could easily have supported this verdict — that is, the jury could well have believed that the NFL broke the antitrust laws, but that the USFL wasn’t harmed by it because the USFL was busy self-destructing anyway. That’s almost always the symbolism behind a $1 damage award, which contrary to the suggestion of this article, has been a message-sending device used by hundreds of civil juries down through the centuries, most often in defamation cases where a horrible lie was told about someone already thought so poorly of in the community that they had no reputation left to damage.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  165. The one part of that article that I particularly liked:

    Another important point in the case was the relative credibility of Rozelle and of New Jersey General owner Donald Trump, who offered widely differing accounts on a meeting they had.

    According to Trump, Rozelle suggested an NFL franchise–acceptance of Trump’s team–if Trump would keep the USFL out of litigation. Rozelle testified that he had met with Trump just to see what he’d say.

    Counsel for both sides hammered at the poor credibility at hand. Myerson, in his summation, repeatedly referred to the commissioner as Alvin Peter Rozelle, with complete disdain for Rozelle’s honesty. Rothman characterized Trump, a wealthy New York builder, as the worst kind of snake who was selling his colleagues down the river so he could affect a merger of a few rich teams.

    In the end, jurors didn’t particularly like either man. Sanchez felt that Rozelle was trying to “cover up” something. “Definitely a cover-up. He was being devious (in his testimony).”

    On the other hand, she said: “Trump had us completely befuddled. Why would he call Rozelle if he wasn’t meeting him with some ulterior motive.”

    The NFL’s Rothman saw it for the NFL, though. “In the discrepancy between Rozelle and Trump, they evidently didn’t believe Mr. Trump,” he said.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  166. With apologies to our host, I’ll be punching the card for Kasich in IL next Tuesday.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  167. Dammit, carlitos, I already had you delivered for Bernie.

    nk (dbc370)

  168. I would have, but it looks like this might be one of the very few votes for the top of the ticket that could count for something. I normally vote in the Democratic primary because the local races are only competitive during that vote. My Alderman is safe, my Congressman isn’t in play, I hate both state rep candidates and I’m completely ambivalent in the State’s Atty race.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  169. The Democratic primary is pointless. I didn’t have the heart to tell the ex-in-laws why bother watching the Democratic debate, on Univusion no less. But Jorge “broken clock” Ramos got one in to Hill on Bengazi. Despite wanting to firewall D.A. Alvarez and Duckworth against the Foxx/Zopp hootenanny,I will cross into the R primary and choose between snake handling ostrich boots or Alex and Skippy’s cool neighbor.

    urbanleftbehind (a6f3da)

  170. @ Beldar
    (1) Cruz is hardly more truthful than Trump. If he makes sounds that are agreeable to the likes of you, you should ask yourself: Why should I believe him? Everyone knows he’s a smart guy, so he has to know he’s trying to lie himself to the White House. Does that remind you of someone? Shouldn’t you support someone with more character?
    (2) The bipartisan dislike of him in the Senate is a tell, and it’s not just his colleagues. Note that Obama has not improved relationships with anyone, including the Democrat House and Senate, with the notable exceptions of Iran and Cuba. Why does Cruz get a pass?
    (3) Obama was a freshman Senator with zero executive experience who couldn’t even last three years before his ambition got the better of him and announced his candidacy. Cruz is a freshman Senator with no executive experience who couldn’t even last three years before his ambition got the better of him and announced his candidacy. Considering Obama’s performance in office as an inexperienced lightweight, why does Cruz get a pass?
    (4) Although Cruz is married to the establishment (wife is an executive at Goldman Sachs) and is an educational product of the establishment (Princeton-Harvard trained), Cruz is dishonestly portraying himself as “anti-establishment”. All of the candidates are either elite (Trump, top 1% of the top 1%)) or establishment. “Establishment” is a bogus construct.
    (5) What has Cruz accomplished in elective office? Damn little, so why would you expect any accomplishments of note in a Cruz administration?
    I could go on.

    WarrenPeese (b535a8)


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