On Triumphalism Over Lazy and Sloppy Big Media Types
In their zeal to debunk Big Media types who zealously and inaccurately “debunk” statements made by Republican candidates, conservatives sometimes accept “facts” that are questionable.
One case in point was Donald Trump’s claim that “thousands” of Muslims celebrated 9/11 on the rooftops of buildings in New Jersey:
I watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. Thousands of people were cheering.
I was among those on Twitter who pummelled Glenn Kessler for his sloppy “fact-checking” column that claimed to find absolutely no evidence of any Muslims celebrating in New Jersey. John Hinderaker had some fun pointing out that Kessler had overlooked an article in his own paper to that effect. Kessler proceeded to defend himself on Twitter by serially misquoting the article, adding a small walkback on his original post, and generally looking like a putz caught with his pants down.
Still, does anybody really believe there were “thousands” celebrating in Jersey? I don’t. Hinderaker doesn’t. But I bet you anything there are Trumpzombies out there who believe TRUMP WAS RIGHT!!!
Similarly, Ben Carson said Thomas Jefferson “tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control people’s natural tendencies.” At USA Today, David Mastio (who I like a lot) wrote a column that defended Carson, by accurately citing some authority to the effect that Jefferson’s exhortations played some role in the adoption of the Bill of Rights. Among the citations are this from the ACLU:
The American Bill of Rights, inspired by Jefferson and drafted by James Madison, was adopted, and in 1791 the Constitution’s first ten amendments became the law of the land.
And this from the National Archives:
Q. What did Thomas Jefferson have to do with framing the Constitution?
A. Although absent from the Constitutional Convention and during the period of ratification, Jefferson rendered no inconsiderable service to the cause of Constitutional Government, for it was partly through his insistence that the Bill of Rights, consisting of the first ten amendments, was adopted.
This is fine as far as it goes, and the statements from the ACLU and the National Archives have some support in reality. Prof. Kevin Gutzman, in his book on James Madison (which I highly recommend) did note that Jefferson said in “several letters” to Madison, written between about December 1787 and December 1788, that a Bill of Rights must be adopted. These letters were written and sent months after the summer of 1787, when the Philadelphia Convention was in session. According to Prof. Gutzman, Madison replied that he liked the idea to the extent that a bill of rights would safeguard liberties, rather than restructure the grant of powers to the federal government from the states. Madison ultimately favored a bill of rights, despite his general skepticism of their necessity, Gutzman writes, because they would allay the concerns of people like Jefferson and George Mason.
(By the way, according to Prof. Gutzman’s book, the Bill of Rights was not considered to be anywhere near as important then as it is today. Indeed, there were those who described it as a “tub to the whale” — an unimportant plaything to distract the Leviathan.)
So far so good. In my view, Mastio went a little overboard with the extent to which he defends Carson, whose point appeared to be far less nuanced and subtle than Carson’s claim that Jefferson “crafted” the Constitution, which he certainly did not.
Here’s the problem: some are running with Mastio’s piece as proof that Thomas Jefferson was, like, totally! behind the drafting of the Constitution, even at the Philadelphia Convention!!1! Rush Limbaugh has taken Mastio’s piece and oversimplified its findings to the point of total inaccuracy and absurdity. Here’s Limbaugh:
But guess what? Ben Carson turned out to be right. Thomas Jefferson did craft the Constitution from France. Jefferson loved France, by the way. He loved going. Jefferson was a big wine connoisseur, among many other things. Perhaps some of you have seen the movie or heard of the movie Jefferson in Paris. He loved it there. But what Politico didn’t know that Ben Carson did know — and they’re running, “Oh, there’s Carson again, boy, making a big fool of himself once again. See, this guy, he’s not in our league. Ben Carson thinks Jefferson wrote the Constitution. Jefferson wasn’t even there. Ben Carson doesn’t even know the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.”
And all of the Drive-By Media critics just launched into poor old Carson, pointing out that Jefferson wasn’t even in America when the Constitution was written. He was in France. What a dope Carson is. How’d this guy ever pass the medical test to be a surgeon? Except this. And credit to USA Today for digging this up.
. . . .
And what they found was that Thomas Jefferson was writing all kinds of letters from France to the Constitutional Convention, and they were sending him letters, and so he was participating in the writing of the Constitution while he was in France with these things called letters that were put on boats that went over the ocean and then to horses in saddlebags where they were delivered to the recipients. It could take months for these things to go back and forth, given the length of time it would take back then to sail across the Atlantic Ocean, if they made it alive. But the point is, Carson was right, and the Drive-Bys mocking him and laughing at him, and making fun of him had no idea Thomas Jefferson was writing these letters.
Yeah, this is totally wrong. Gutzman says on Facebook:
One more time: 1) there is no evidence that Thomas Jefferson had any — any — effect on the “crafting” of the US Constitution, and 2) the Bill of Rights was *not* “his idea.”
1) He was in France in summer 1787, at a time when it took six weeks for a letter to cross the Atlantic to the east and longer to the west. The delegates to the Convention were all sworn to secrecy, so they could not have consulted him even if they had desired to do so and it had been practicable.
2) The first promise to seek a bill of rights was made by Federalists in Massachusetts to get Governor John Hancock and other waverers to support ratification. None of them consulted Jefferson–who was still in France, if anyone in Boston had cared. James Madison was finally persuaded to favor a bill of rights, which he had opposed, by political imperatives in Virginia: the North American Baptist movement happened to be centered in his home county, and local Baptists insisted he promise to seek amendments, particularly one like the Establishment Clause, before they voted for him over James Monroe for Congress. Everyone knew this was his motivation at the time.
While Kessler did too much of a victory dance over Donald Trump, and exaggerated the lack of evidence to support Trump’s claim, Trump was almost certainly wrong to claim there were “thousands” of Muslims celebrating on rooftops in New Jersey on 9/11.
While Politico did too much of a victory dance over Ben Carson, and exaggerated the lack of a role that Jefferson played in inspiring the Bill of Rights, Carson was not correct to claim Jefferson played a role in “crafting” the Constitution. And Rush Limbaugh has screwed up the analysis beyond all recognition.
Unfortunately, Patterico (and even Gutzman) are nothing compared to Limbaugh’s mis-educating of millions of people on this issue.
This seems to be a pattern.
Conservative says something wrong but with a germ of truth.
Lefty claims conservative is TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.
Conservative #2 points out that not so much.
Conservatives #3-100 take Conservative #2’s point as TOTAL VINDICATION of Conservative #1.
Patterico (86c8ed) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:33 pmConservatives frustrated with the fact that truth doesn’t seem bipartisan anymore. The result of progressive PC-ism and media bias is tribalism. If progressives don’t like it, they invented it so it’s up to them to stop promoting one group over another and learn to accept basic facts, even the ones they don’t like.
DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:40 pmthey were celebrating on the inside
happyfeet (831175) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:41 pmNothing will ever beat “Abraham Lincoln, Democrat”.
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:44 pmThere is no such thing as bi-partisan anymore. Even facts have become adaptable.
The thing with the Trumpzombies that gets lost in the right-wrong of an issue, is they seem to be reacting not to the right or wrongness of the issue in question, but rather to the larger issue of complaint: the relentless drive and determination of the MSM to not simply point out an error, but rather the need to destroy the person in question. I think with all of the issues that have come up around Trump (and issues where he was found to be both right and wrong), his people are in essence in a continual state of pushback against whomever is attacking because they are just tired of always ending up diminished and having people like Kessler, who is clearly not just out to disprove a claim, but as evidenced when his error is pointed out, instead keeps trying to dig out of the hole and bring down a popular GOP candidate. The goal isn’t accuracy in reporting. The goal is destruction.
Trump has just opened the necessary door to wage the battle his supporters see as long-waited for, and thus, a priority.
Dana (86e864) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:54 pmp.s. Of course, it goes without saying, that being right and being accurate *should* be the most important aspect of these situations, but given the Kessler’s of the world, it no longer is. Trump’s supporters appear to be waging a different battle. Which of course, will have damaging consequences to the country if they maintain this focus at the expense of a candidate who is more sound and consistent. And accurate.
Dana (86e864) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:57 pmWell you need to simplify in general parlance, so the struggle that split the founders was not a big deal, shirley, besides Carson was referring to principles.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:01 pmI’m wondering who took the head count on Muslims cheering in New Jersey? One thing is for sure that was two hundred pounds ago, oh wait uh, too many years ago for Chris Christie to pretend he is the exclusive arbiter of the true count today.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:22 pmI wonder why they haven’t asked Bret schindlet who was the mayor that year, we know that he and stay puft have different views on things.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:33 pmYou can add Giuliani to those who was aware of said accounts.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:52 pmI’ve been studying up on Baron Montesquieu. Would a guy like Jefferson, who so hated the thought of royalty and titles of nobility, that he insisted on being called Mr. Jefferson while serving, have been without influence, when the constitution that results is almost a blueprint of the French philosopher’s ideal of what government should be?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:57 pmWell the revolution went Rousseau instead of montesquieu, the latter path is where we are trying to get back to, is it not.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:07 pmWould a guy like Jefferson, who so hated the thought of royalty and titles of nobility, that he insisted on being called Mr. Jefferson while serving, have been without influence, when the constitution that results is almost a blueprint of the French philosopher’s ideal of what government should be?
I think Jefferson’s influence extends to the degree to which his thinking had an effect upon his protégé, James Madison, whose ideas are obviously a tremendous influence on the Constitution. But Madison’s writings in The Federalist Papers should be taken as conclusive evidence that his thoughts were fully developed and finalized in his own mind and not just a rote recitation of what Jefferson had “taught” him. Jefferson’s contribution to the Constitution therefore is likely found in his lasting influence on Madison from their years together in Virginia.
JVW (d60453) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:26 pmFrankly, what part Jefferson had in the Constitution while being an interesting history discussion has almost nothing to do with this election. And while moslems cheering the destruction on 9/11 does have a bearing on this election since it is still the moslems who threaten America and deliver wonton destruction around the world the exact number who were cheering is irrelevant since only moslems were cheering. Unlike Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or any number lesser religions only the moslems cheered the death of Americans and the destruction of our cities. Therefore, even one was too phukin’ many. Especially since they were cheering in our own country. If they want to see it blown up there’s no reason for them to be here. And unless we are pathological morons there’s no reason for us to have them here. But I digress.
I recall seeing the cheering moslems and no, I did not count them. I was too disgusted to do math. I do recall there was a lot more than one but I have no idea if there were thousands as I don’t think they showed “every” celebrating moslem. But I heard the stories about them walking around their neighborhoods giving out candy with big smiles over their great victory over the Great Satan.
Leftists don’t give a rats butt about Jefferson, the Constitution, moslems or anything else but winning. They are employing their usual tactic of smearing the enemy. Remember, to them we are the enemy. Not moslems, not illegals killing our young women, not any actual enemy of America. We, Republicans, conservatives, Libertarians, Christians and Freedom loving people from coast to coast are their enemy. We best start acting like it and rallying behind any one of us they try and ruin or they will surely ruin us all.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:56 pmStipulated but one has to take Ben Carson’s reason for citing that founder’s part, too many on college campi, it is as foreign a text as the e pleb just in that trek episode.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:04 pmI think what probably happened in Trump’s case is that he read about the reports of Muslims celebrating as the Twin Towers burned in Jersey City, and saw the footage of Middle East Muslims celebrating and his mind merged the two. The fact that nobody has documented that there were “thousands” celebrating in Jersey City is a fairly irrelevant point in this case IMO.
Gerald A (949d7d) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:21 pmGosh, who knew that historian Kevin Gutzman is the sole authority and final word on Jefferson!
I, for one, am glad to be set straight and learn this from reading the Patterico blog, because over here on this website,some goof namedGordon Lloyd, Phd.is saying otherwise:
“…Jefferson was kept informed by Madison of the general flow of the debates and, in turn, he openly exchanged ideas with Madison about the separation of powers and the construction of the executive branch.”
This fool, this so-called “professor” Gordon Lloyd is even posting a letter from Jefferson to Madison dated June 20, 1787, where Jefferson supposedly wrote this (plus a bunch more) indicating he did contribute to the Constitution, and not just the Bill of Rights:
Would not an appeal from the state judicatures to a federal court, in all cases where the act of Confederation controlled the question, be as effectual a remedy, and exactly commensurate to the defect. A British creditor, e.g. sues for his debts in Virginia; the defendant pleads an act of the state excluding him from their courts; the plaintiff urges the Confederation and the treaty made under that, as controlling the state law; the judges are weak enough to decide according to the views of their legislature. An appeal to a federal court sets all to rights. It will be said that this court may encroach on the jurisdiction of the state courts. It may. But there will be a power, to wit Congress, to watch and restrain them. But place the same authority in Congress itself, and there will be no power above them to perform the same office. They will restrain within due bounds a jurisdiction exercised by others much more rigorously than if exercised by themselves….”
Someone really ought to set Carson, Mastio, and especially that massively-mis-educating-of-the-masses Rush Limbaugh straight!
P.S. Trump is stoopid! And a Liiiiar!
School Marm (f96753) — 11/26/2015 @ 1:15 amSorry Gerald A., but I too saw moslems celebrating on roof tops as the WTC burned in the distance. It was on TV and I realize that since FOX is on all morning at my house (especially that morning) I may get my news tilted right, but that I saw with my own two beady blue eyes. Now I can’t stipulate to how many there were but I saw them, and BTW heard them.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27) — 11/26/2015 @ 5:49 amLoved the post, School Marm. Loved the sarcasm!
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27) — 11/26/2015 @ 5:50 amGood find I must have looked through a dozen books on jefferson and the constitution, and they did not reference that.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/26/2015 @ 6:09 am“Trump’s supporters appear to be waging a different battle. Which of course, will have damaging consequences to the
countrylame stream media if they maintain this focus…” there fixed that! Conservatives are not the ones always lying and alwasys trying to divide the country.And, we know muslims hate America so muslims celebrating in NJ or Minneapolis or Hamtramck MI is believable no matter how anyone wants to revise history now.
Jim (a9b7c7) — 11/26/2015 @ 7:14 amTrump stating that “thousands” of Muslims were celebrating on rooftops in the New York area on 9-11 is a sloppy exaggeration. But he’s merely the flip side of people in the US military (no less), who when dealing with a rabid, anti-US, pro-Islam enlistee like Nidal Hasan, looked the other way and pretended there was no problem with a blatant subversive in their ranks. Or at least not so great a problem that something had to be done before the bullets were flying at Fort Hood.
We live in an Age of Insanity (and Idiocy).
Obama’s America.
Mark (f713e4) — 11/26/2015 @ 8:18 amYour point about Rush is well taken.
However, you seem to be accepting the WaPo’s “Mischaracterize and mock” coverage of Carson’s actual comments.
You link to the Wash Post story headlined:
“Ben Carson, author of book about the Constitution, incorrectly states that Thomas Jefferson crafted it“.
The second paragraph of the story has a key shift, perhaps too nuanced for the WaPO, my emphasis:
“That did not stop Carson from praising Jefferson in a C-Span interview Sunday as one of the most impressive of the Founding Fathers because he “tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control peoples’ natural tendencies and control the natural growth of the government.”
Is there really a serious argument that Jefferson did not even make an effort to push for a limited government? Or, if he tried, why can’t Carson admire the effort and the vision?
The full question and answer were printed at Mediaite:
““You talk a lot about the Founding Fathers,” host Steve Scully noted. “Do you have one that impressed you the most?”
“I’m impressed by a lot of them, but particularly impressed with Thomas Jefferson, who seemed to have very deep insight into the way that people would react,” Carson said. “And he tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control people’s natural tendencies and control the natural growth of the government.”
I suppose “tried to craft” could describe a guy sitting alone in his room trying to write a Constitution, or a blog post. And if Carson meant that, well, ha ha.
But “tried to craft” could also mean (from an online thesarus) tried to “shape”, “formulate” or “design”. Is Carson really a buffoon for saying that Jefferson tried to shape the final Constitution? What about all his letters – even if they were late and ignored, he wrote them, yes?
The WaPo game is to find the dumbest possible interpretation of Carson’s words and insist that is the only plausible interpretation. Which is BS.
Tom Maguire (41790c) — 11/26/2015 @ 9:15 pm