The Official Way to Address the Problem of Radical Islam
Make sure you don’t call it radical “Islam”:
For the past year, there’s been a concerted push within the U.S. government to ban frank talk about the nature of the Islamist enemy. It began with the Department of Homeland Security, then moved to the National Counter Terrorism Center and the departments of State and Defense. Already in May 2008, I heard an excellent analysis of the enemy by Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Thomas Mahnken in which he bizarrely never once mentioned Islam or jihad.
I’ve been wondering how this change in vocabulary actually occurs: is it a spontaneous mood shift, a group decision, or a directive from on high?
The answer just arrived, in the shape of a leaked memo dated March 2 from Jennifer Janin, head of the Urdu service at the Voice of America. The directive can be found in its entirety at “Urdu Language Style & Guidelines #3.” Addressed to the Urdu radio, television, and web teams, as well as to the director and program manager of VOA’s South Asia Division, her diktat insists on no connection being drawn from Islam to politics. In gist:
Islamic terrorists: DO NOT USE. Instead use simply: terrorist.
Islamic Fundamentalism/ Muslim Fundamentalists: AVOID.
Islamist: NOT NECESSARY.
Muslim Extremists: NOT NECESSARY. Extremist serves well.
This is Orwellian. Islamic fundamentalism is Islamic. Islamic extremism is Islamic. Islamic terrorism is Islamic.
It doesn’t mean Islam is inherently fundamentalist or extreme or terroristic. It’s not. I know some like to say it is, but it plainly isn’t.
But you have to call things what they are.
There’s also an increasing tendency among news organizations to call terrorists “alleged” terrorists, or criminals “alleged” criminals — even after they have been convicted. So you get this bizarre situation where Islamic terrorists are called merely “people who prosecutors say are terrorists.” The reference to Islam is deleted, though accurate. The label of terrorist is watered down, though accurate.
No. You can’t allow this to happen. You can’t allow simple concepts to be redefined.
Islamic terrorists are both Islamic and terrorists. How can you fight the problem if you redefine it into something it is not?
Ever talk to a liberal posing as an undecided? That’s an eye opening experience.
See, they really believe that if you rename something, it stops being what it is. They honestly think, deep down inside, that if they don’t call Islamic terrorists what they are, then the problem goes away.
Look at that “reset button” they cooked up for Putin. All that missile defense and Russia invading Georgia stuff, well that’s all reset now. Didn’t happen. So yay, we can be friends!
It’s the best explanation I can come up with for their behavior. Either that or they’re all just completely disconnected from reality.
Britt (0f32fe) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:18 amI can see the rebuttals now:
We ought to see *some* variation of that today. I can’t see how we wouldn’t.
Patterico (cc3b34) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:24 amHow dare you call something for exactly what it entails – wacist!
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:36 amGeorge Orwell is smiling.
Old Coot (e77f9d) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:37 amماذا يفعل المسلمون في الدفاع عن الله والاسلام من هجمات عنيفة مع التشهير؟ الله وحده قادر على الدفاع عن نفسه.
Joe (17aeff) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:46 amPatterico:
It’s worse than that: You’ve got one candy-ass commentator who thinks this is justifiable. Now you’re screwed.
The Urdu messages go out almost entirely to Muslim people over VOA. VOA is about efficacy; it’s a propaganda arm of the government. It’s designed to swing people our way as by persuading them that blowing up civilians is bad.
So, what we ought to do is use our words in a way most likely to cause Muslims to whomp terrorists on the head with crowbars. Repeatedly mentioning the terrorists’ sincere religious belief is probably unhelpful.
If it were an American organization speaking to Americans, I’d agree fully with you. But I am utterly unoffended by VOA’s decision on this.
–JRM
JRM (355c21) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:01 amHow can you fight the problem if you redefine it into something it is not?
The word ‘fight’ may be interpreted as implying violence. Further use of the word ‘fight’ is not advised. It is suggesed that instead you use words like ‘appease’ and ‘accept’ in the future.
Thank you.
KB (5a6552) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:03 amI don’t think this attitude by the government is anything new. It has always been the Global War On Terrorism.
kaf (16e0b5) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:07 amالقاعدة الخنازير. أوباما بن لادن هو ابن أحد زرع الخنازير. محمد عطا في الجحيم مع بقية تلك الخنازير والكلاب.
Joe (17aeff) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:11 amActually, you are both a pussy and an asshole, from what I read over the weekend. So you have that going for you, which is nice. 🙂
/Doofus T. Barfbrains
JRM – they definitely are extending this to American audiences, not just South Asian VOA.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:13 amWhat JRM #6 said. I learned that it was very important to get the jury to like me and counter-productive to try to get it to dislike my opposing counsel in first-year trial practice. There’s one hell of a difference between inciting a mob which is already on your side, and attempting to bring people to your side and against their own friends, neighbors and even children.
nk (502275) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:24 amWhy would we want to fight a bumpersticker when there are hordes of moderate muslims knocking down our doors to help us confront the issues of socially maladjusted people of indeterminant origin who have nothing obvious in common who just like to kill innocent women and children, set off bombs in public places, and explode in violent rages like children.
Go figure.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:14 amBut, a Christian burned an abortion clinic. Once. About 10 years ago. And California outlawed gay marriage and stuff. And some dude yelled at be ‘cos of my Bush is worse than Hitler, Satan and Kenny G T-Shirt. And we still don’t have national healthcare. So who is the real terrorist here?
🙂
Batt Moon (60ebeb) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:39 amI completely agree – after all, we’ve been the racist warmongers for millennia now, what with our genocidal war against the native peoples, along with our wrongful dropping of the A – Bomb on the peaceful warriors of Bushido. Really, who are we to judge anyone?
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:45 amI agree with Patterico that not all Moslems are terrorist, but the non-terrorist Moslems sure seem to get their panties in a bunch when we say the 9/11 terrorist are Moslems. Why?
And of course we can see a lot of the so called moderate Moslems that came out during the last Israeli smack down in Gaza and not just here but also in Europe. Those peaceful moderates just want bigger ovens for the Jews, how nice of them.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:51 amMoslem tolerance at SFSU, moderates or not?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:16 am[…] open than Bush left them – and that was pretty darn wide – and political correctness bordering on dhimmitude as policy, I think cutting back on the military just isn’t a big worry. As in, I’m not worried […]
Going Galt, Shutting Down, Getting Personal : Pursuing Holiness (e6211d) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:24 am“It doesn’t mean Islam is inherently fundamentalist or extreme or terroristic. It’s not. I know some like to say it is, but it plainly isn’t.”
I beg to differ, and would direct you to several sources. Robert Spencer’s body of works, Bruce Bawer’s book “While Europe Slept” suggests otherwise, Lawrence Wright’s “The Looming Tower” and Andrew McCarthy’s “Willful Blindness” point to a dramatically different conclusion.
Note that I am not suggesting that all Muslims are fundamentalist fanatics. But the religion, if observed as written and officially closed to re-interpretation in something like the 11th century, is a plague on mankind. So also sayeth Samuel Adams and Winston Churchill.
Until such time as the historical and current “radical” view of Islam causes the non-Mulim world to force enough pain on Moslims to force a re-evaluation of their proselytize-by-the-sword mindset, they will continue to be a danger. Ignoring this basic tenent is a recipe for more of the current friction.
neocon_1 (d098d0) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:29 amMaybe one of you of Irish descent can explain why it is that the Irish absolutely adore and pity the Palestinians. I used to hobnob with Irish ex-pats, but was always considered a tactless asshole for calling a spade a spade, as in Arafat was a vicious terrorist assassin and the Palis are the scum of the earth. And no, I am not Jewish. Of course since I don’t respect Islam I am called stupid, lazy and uncompassionate. Maybe the moonbats can explain why Islam and the europussies are so wonderful and Amerikkka so evil. At least it was under Bushitler. Seriously, even American libtard Jooos seem to think ImADamnNutJob, Little Kim, Monkey Boy Chavez, Gorilla Castro, Vladimir Putin are all righteous dudes..at least the liberal cretins I talk to and there are many here in hanging chad/impeach Bush/Bobby Wexler-is-god Boca.
aoibhneas (0c6cfc) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:34 amAnd still wondering what O’Dumbo’s qualifications are. The dude is a closet smoker and seems to tire easily. God forbid he has emphysema and slow joe biden takes over.
At the risk of sounding like a “Hater”. The only way to deal with radical islam in America is to outlaw the practice of islam in general.
…and maybe deport those who practice it.
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:40 amI think when they say that using Islamist is not necessary, they’re just putting things in a deliberately uncontroversial so as not to draw attention to themselves. I wouldn’t call Islamic terrorists Islamic, I would simply say that I think non-terroristy activities are probably more better and anyone what is doing terroristy stuff should just knock it off.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:49 amoh. in a deliberately uncontroversial *way* I meant. It’s the quitting smoking thing I think, but Baracky’s new tax kicks in at the end of the month and I’m sure as hell not gonna be the one stuck paying for little Timmy’s new kidney.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:51 amMuslim Extremists: NOT NECESSARY. Extremist serves well.
Isn’t a “real Muslim” one who follows the instructions of the Koran? If that is the case, then I guess it would be more correct to say:
Muslim Extremists: NOT NECESSARY. “Muslim” serves well.
j curtis (5961e3) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:52 amIt doesn’t mean Islam is inherently fundamentalist or extreme or terroristic. It’s not. I know some like to say it is, but it plainly isn’t.
But you have to call things what they are.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:54 amI beg to differ with you on that Pat. Islam is fundamentally terrorist. That’s what their book teaches. The so -called moderates are not regarded as true Muslims. They are seen as backslidden or as infidels. Islam teaches violence. They have a vision of world dominance and they intend to achieve it by any means necessary. They are brain-washed to see all those who reject the teachings of Islam as infidels. Dogs. They teach that any Muslim who kills an infidel will go to paradise were he will inherit 72 hot virgins! If that is not a stimulus for violence, I don’t know what is. Lets call it what it is. A true, practising Muslim has a rage built into him against the world. A rage that will soon erupt at a set time. It’s time to wake up.
Uh, yeah, Paleo Pat. You do sound like a hater. Let’s not play ‘multiple choice’ with the Bill of Rights, mkay?
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:58 amWhatever. Most Muslims are nice. It’s just the Saudi kind that are dickheads. The neat thing about real Muslims like from Indonesia or Bangladesh is that cause they don’t drink they’re really big on good food. That’s my theory anyway. They’re fun to hang out with and also they make great designated drivers.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:00 amThey get a little grumpy during Ramadan sometimes though but you have to pretend not to notice cause they’re not supposed to be grumpy during Ramadan.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:03 amIslam should be outlawed. It’s a human poison that feels the soul with hate and violence. Nothing good can come out of it.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:04 amChuckles aka Paleo Pat – That is one of the more brain-jarringly stupid ideas that I have seen posted in a long, long time. Which is no shock, coming from you.
JD (93e174) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:05 amMy muslim friend says you’re mean.
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:07 am#27.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:17 amOops! “Feels” should be stricken off. It should be “Fills”.
Attention, dumbasses who want to “outlaw Islam:”
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:18 amName one human accomplishment in civiliazation that was inspired by Islam. Just one. What good has it done for mankind? None. Unlike Christianity.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:21 amI can’t name one accomplishment of the Chicago Cubs, either, but outlawing them isn’t unconstitutional. Go away.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:30 amIslamic Fundamentalism/ Muslim Fundamentalists: AVOID.
An interesting thing about the cognitive dissonance generated through the usage of the word “fundamentalists”; prior to 9/11/01, the media routinely used the word to describe certain Christians who they would then go on to chastise for not following the teachings of Jesus closely enough. They wouldn’t turn the other cheek enough or they would cast stones or oppose the socialist plans to redistribute wealth, and especially those Christians who bombed abortion clinics. Fundamentalist meant terrorist back then.
After 9/11, they stopped using the word because it was being used to describe Muslims who actually did follow the fundamentals of their religion and the libs would have been forced to admit that their problem with “fundamentalist Christians” was that they weren’t fundamentalist enough for them. That would force the same folks to admit that Islamic terrorists are fundamentalists and not the Christian terrorists who formerly held the designation. Once you are forced to admit the distinction, you have judged one religion as good and another as evil.
j curtis (0b3b6c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:38 amIt is my personal belief that Islam is a poison, and a dangerous one at that. I also believe “radical Islam” is the true Islam as written in the Quran. But, so long as those who follow Islam do so non-violently, their Constitutional rights must be protected. If you start selecting which religions are not protected, you will eventually get to the point where all religions become outlawed. And that is a place I do not want to go.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:40 am#33
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:42 amOh I am sorry you refuse to see things the way they are. May we not wake up when it’s too late. Go to their meetings and hear what their Imams are spewing out on them. Hate. Violence. Jihad. And you sit there acting like evil is still very far away from us. Behold, it is amongst us! Our enemies live among us. They work with us. Eat with us. Leave with us. Some are still resistant to these teachings but with time, seeing all the perceived hatred of the west towards their brothers in Palestine, will soon begin to agree. And when that day comes, no one will see it coming. Remember 9/11.
A four letter word for the “redefiners” popular in England and beginning with P.
Hmmmm!
Oh yes, POOF!
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:47 amGreat. Do you think that President Barack Hussein Obama will make passing a Constitutional amendment exempting Islam from the first Amendment his first order of business, then?
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:51 amEmperor7whateverithappenstobe,
“Name one human accomplishment in civiliazation [sic] that was inspired by Islam. Just one. What good has it done for mankind? None.”
Actually, there are a lot.
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:52 amMaybe the word “outlaw” wasn’t the word I was looking for. We could start by calling it a religion of hate and violence. That way people come to know what they are dealing with. No more sugar-coating. Call a spade, a spade and not a shovel!
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:52 am# 35 John
Exactly correct, as long as they are not breaking the law there is no problem.
There are plenty of non-Moslem hate groups here in America that enjoy the protections of the constitution.
And punishing people who have broken no laws because other people in other places have, goes against everything this country was built upon.
It’s the pinnacle of injustice.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:55 amIslam was once the beacon of learning and progressive ideas, so please don’t attempt to rewrite history.
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:01 pm# 39 Leviticus
That is all BS, of course Moslems invented everything and that is why their societies are much more advanced then our own.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:01 pmI cant believe people believe this crap, but I suppose that only happens to people who put more stock into words and not deeds.
Comment by carlitos — 3/9/2009 @ 11:51 am
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:02 pmDoes the first Ammendment support right to incite violence as part of free speech?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
From the above quote, does inciting violence and hate fall into the category of peaceful or freedom of speech?
Take your pick: math, science, medicine, astronomy, navigation… The Islamic world was state-of-the-art during the medieval centuries.
Unfortunately their culture never really evolved past the 1300’s: children as war material, honor-killings, women as property, tolerance of slavery, intolerance of other cultures…these traditions are just as old and are still in practice today.
Pons Asinorum (87c424) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:03 pm“That is all BS, of course Moslems invented everything and that is why their societies are much more advanced then our own.
I cant believe people believe this crap, but I suppose that only happens to people who put more stock into words and not deeds.”
– ML
I’m sorry: was there an intelligible rebuttal in the midst of all that froth?
Muslim inventors came up with a lot of brilliant/useful inventions. Cry about it. It doesn’t excuse atrocities committed in the name of Islam, but it’s stupid to claim that “teh MUSLIMs never inventing NOTHING!!!”
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:05 pmYeah they also invented road side bombs and chemicals for large scale destruction. Really they have made some important contributions to world development. Not to mention guns and gunpowder.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:09 pmI love how lovie, supporter of Teh Lightworker, Teh One that we have been waiting for, is such a bigot. Chuckles too.
JD (93e174) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:12 pm# 46. Leviticus
Of course we all know how reliable Fake-a-pedia is?
If I recall correctly the Pyramids existed long before Islam, but how can that be,
Moslems had not yet invented survey equipment?
Something I cant figure out about the left is how they condemn Christians for thinking homosexuality is wrong, yet they absolutely love Islam which puts homosexuals to death!
But I suppose that fits with their gay and women’s rights agenda and their hatred of Christianity.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:15 pmOn this I proudly wear the badge of “Bigot”, JD. Thank you so much.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:18 pm“Yeah they also invented road side bombs and chemicals for large scale destruction. Really they have made some important contributions to world development.”
– Emperor7graspingatstraws
Non sequitor.
“Not to mention guns and gunpowder.”
– Emperor7whofailshistory101
That would be the Chinese.
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:18 pmI read the link on all the supposed inventions of Islam. Laughable. I am surprised they didn’t include the Internet.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:21 pmLeviticus – never mind lovie. It is generally incomprehensible, except when it is calling for people to submit to Barcky.
JD (93e174) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:22 pm“Of course we all know how reliable Fake-a-pedia is?”
– ML
Yeah… that might be a legitimate argument if the article didn’t have a bunch of references at the bottom directing you to sources of “untainted” information. Try again.
“f I recall correctly the Pyramids existed long before Islam, but how can that be,
Moslems had not yet invented survey equipment?”
– ML
Good point. I suppose you think that since the Wright brothers built the Flyer II that Boeing didn’t invent the 747.
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:24 pm# 45 Pons Asinorum
Take your pick: math, science, medicine, astronomy, navigation…
And what did Moslems invent with navigation, did they have GPS way back in 13th century?
Maybe you are not aware but Longitude was invented by a British watch maker in the 16th century, before that they used only dead reckoning combined with Latitude. And the Greeks invented Latitude around 120 BC, which was long before Mohammed – 600AD.
Nothing like a fact check instead of fake lefty BS history.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:25 pmIslamic culture did reintroduce a lot of science, mathematics and philosophy back into Europe at the end of the dark ages, because it had retained a lot of the Greek philosophers and mathematicians’ writings. Islamic culture also transmitted some philosophy and other knowledge from Hindu culture via the Arab trading routes to the East.
The problem with Islamic culture today however has nothing to do with how advanced it was in the 14th Century.
SPQR (72771e) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:30 pmPeople get frustrated with the Muslims in their heads but most real Muslims don’t run around all day getting all Islamic about this that and the other. They have the exact same sort of diversity in how devout they are what Christian peoples do I think. Hey check it out I made a graph. It looks just like a bell!
happyfeet (71f55e) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:30 pmLeviticus
That wasn’t even a good strawman, color me surprised.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:32 pmI think Leviticus is mixing up Arabs with Muslims. Islam is not that old. 600AD. Besides my question was not what contributions Arabs have made. I am talking about those who were inspired by Islam to invent and not destroy. Islam teaches hate and violence. Not science and technology, except to invent instruments of mass death. Nice try my friend.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (0c8c2c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:35 pmI think that Christians have the “instruments of mass death” thing covered, lovie. Again, please go away.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:45 pmLeviticus
The great Pyramid in Egypt not in Saudi Arabia is less than one quarter of one inch out of level. The sides of the Pyramid are concave to a degree that approximates the curvature of the earth.
It is also aligned to true north to a greater tolerance then we use for our observatories today.
It also has a foundation that compensates for temperature differences.
How can all this be possible, when Moslems didn’t “invent” precise survey equipment until thousands of years later?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:48 pmApologies for the lengthy quote, but it’s government writing. As I noted to JRM way back when, this is not simply a case of censoring the Urdu language VOA broadcasts.
Regarding Islamic diversity, I had a Somali cab driver last week, and he claimed that they were more relaxed about it because Somali Muslims drank alcohol. I didn’t ask about the female genital mutilation thing, wanting to arrive safely at my hotel.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:51 pmThe one unique invention that the Arab World came up with that has world-wide application,
AD - RtR/OS (8ef6a3) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:52 pmIMO, is the concept of “zero” in mathematics.
The truth is out there …
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 12:55 pmFunny how they all run and hide when some real facts show up instead of their fake BS history.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:27 pmThey are so predictable, I know what they are going to do before they even know what they are going to do.
Pat,
Just to confirm:
On your blog:
Anti-Muslim hate is okay.
Anti-Jew hate is not okay.
Right?
Hax Vobiscum (4012df) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:34 pm# 63
AD
That is also a Moslem inspired BS fact, now it maybe up for debate but the concept of zero was around long before Islam.
I believe the Indians of India brought this concept to Islame.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:35 pmThe anti-Muslim hate you are referencing, Hacks, is from a Barcky supporter.
JD (93e174) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:36 pmHacks
There is a difference between disagreement and hate, a nuance that is lost on you.
But I expect nothing less from you illiberal types that can not stand others opinions, only your own opinion is what counts. Everything outside of that is considered hate.
I think your tinfoil is on a bit tight.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:39 pmOh no, hate speech.
Now, ML. The hat is aluminum foil, not tinfoil.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:43 pmStill calling Muslims “Moslems,” heh ML?
Never let a chance to insult them while denying you hate them go by!
timb (a83d56) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:51 pmLeviticus: A lot you say? Then you link to Wikipedia? which contains THIS “invention” by Islam?
Are you kidding me? liquefaction and evaporation – totally natural processes? Invented by Islamic folk? Damn son, you might as well claim that the Soviets invented the car, atomic power, the bomb, etc. It would make as much sense. Now, please pardon me while I have a laugh attack.
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:55 pmleviticus strikes again: since the Wright brothers built the Flyer II that Boeing didn’t invent the 747.
Comment by Leviticus — 3/9/2009 @ 12:24 pm
Listen kiddo, Boeing didn’t “invent” the 747, they designed it.
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 1:58 pmThere’s no good answer.
Islam is more violent and authoritarian than other religions; its founder was a warlord, and his followers conquered an empire in the name of Islam. The ultras can make a good case that their program is “true Islam”. However, the majority of Moslems don’t want to go to war with the rest of the world.
I don’t see any good way to oppose the ingrained violence of Islamic doctrine without validating the ultras. Avoiding references to “jihadis” and “Islamists” may seem cowardly, but maybe it is just prudent.
And yes, there are Moslems who do resist Islamist terrorism. The Pakistani army has had thousands killed in battles with the Taliban; Algeria had a very gruesome civil war. That’s not counting all the Iraqis and Afghans who have fought alongside our troops in those countries. Do we want to throw away all these Moslem allies?
Rich Rostrom (09ec82) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:01 pmML: You know the saying: “If the shoe fits, wear it.”
Looks like you just couldn’t help but slip your toes right in and say how comfy it is…
Some wingers just need hate.
Without it, they feel small.
Hax Vobiscum (4012df) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:05 pmTimb
I know you have never seen a dictionary being all college uneducated and all, but Moslem is a variant to Muslim. Islam and Mohammadanism are also the same, so look for that word in my future writing, then I can send you some California cheese to go with your aluminum foil hat whine. Hat tip to Eric Blair)
Did you ask for a refund since college hasn’t done much for you?
I am only looking out for you because you are getting ripped off big time.
And Moslems also “invented” oil, wow what would we do without them?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:06 pmWith timb and hacks around, the country suddenly has a critical shortage of straw.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:09 pmAnd in case any of our apologists want to head in this direction, The wright brothers didn’t invent flying, they invented “internal combustion engine powered” flight. Prior to that there were gliders, birds, baloons etc. Their successful flight at Kitty Hawk was followed by other designs which did the same thing, but did it better until we got the 747 and its progeny. Personally however, I still prefer the “Connie” or perhaps a DC-4. But then, I’m an old fart.
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:10 pmA few things…
1. I have never, ever, at any time, ever, supported Barack “The Magic Moonbat” ever.
2. I have zero against Jews or Blacks. I just refuse to be sucked into the thing commonly known as “White Guilt” that is pimped by the links of Al Sharpton, Jesse “Cut his nuts off” Jackson, and by the likes of Neil and John Podhoretz and Irving and Willy Kristol. I didn’t put the Negros in chains, nor did I put any Jews in any ovens. So, I do not feel a TWINGE of guilt over what happened before I was even born.
Got it?
3. I am all for freedom of Religion, but when they religion wants to slam planes into buildings, and bomb buildings, and basically disrupt my way of life. I got a problem with it. Freedom of Religion is fine, Freedom of the Enabling of terrorism, is another.
And for those who seem to believe that I am some sort of a encognito
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:13 pmI’m wondering whether the host of this site has said anything at all like “Muslim hate OK,” or indeed whether anyone at all has been banned or censored for anti-religious anything here. I suspect neither, and that this is a silly non-argument.
ML, While I’m no proponent of Islamic culture as it stands today, especially Arab Islamic culture, for you to flatly deny that there even was a golden age for this empire is silly. Ironically, they even invented pure distillation, a science that most muslims don’t enjoy today.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:14 pmA few things…
1. I have never, ever, at any time, ever, supported Barack “The Magic Moonbat” ever.
2. I have zero against Jews or Blacks. I just refuse to be sucked into the thing commonly known as “White Guilt” that is pimped by the links of Al Sharpton, Jesse “Cut his nuts off” Jackson, and by the likes of Neil and John Podhoretz and Irving and Willy Kristol. I didn’t put the Negros in chains, nor did I put any Jews in any ovens. So, I do not feel a TWINGE of guilt over what happened before I was even born.
Got it?
3. I am all for freedom of Religion, but when they religion wants to slam planes into buildings, and bomb buildings, and basically disrupt my way of life. I got a problem with it. Freedom of Religion is fine, Freedom of the Enabling of terrorism, is another.
And for those who seem to believe that I am some sort of a incognito Liberal, Please, okay? I walked away from that horse crap after I saw how they treated our Military, pouring cutting oil on the Vietnam War memorial and defacing solider memorials and basically took their found principles and threw them in the damn toilet.
I am a libertarian-minded Paleo-Conservative. Sorry if some of you cannot bring yourself to believe that. But it is true.
as… the late great Paul Harvey would say….”Good Day!”
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:15 pmSorry dupe comment, accidentally click on wrong spot.
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:17 pmHey, I like the blacks too. Loves me a nice shoe shine!
some sort of a encognito (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:17 pmD’oh!
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:19 pmI don’t really care what you are, your talk about making a religion with a billion adherents (including a couple of million in the US) is offensive. Good day, sir!
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:19 pmer, making a religion illegal is offensive.
And that was me making fun of you and your misspelled incognito and obvious non-racism.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:23 pmIsn’t Moby supposed to be in the studio recording his next album?
SPQR (72771e) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:25 pmHacks and timb
Are both of you aware that the GAIA hat is not a chair. Of course I can understand your confusion as to which end is which.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:26 pmheh… What I was doing was trying to use the spellchecker here in firefox and I somehow hit the submit button… pea-pickin’ mouse.
and… No, I am not a racist. I have minority friends and various stripes. So, that’s a bogus argument, surprising many of them agree with me. Especially Zo over at Macho Sauce Productions. 😀
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:27 pmcarlitos
Perhaps our idea of golden age is different.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:31 pmI am sure they had one, I am just not sure what it really entails.
Moslems are notorious liars and I find it difficult to trust anything they say.
Like when they claimed to have discovered America and all the other science claptrap.
Some of my best friends are …..
AD - RtR/OS (8ef6a3) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:31 pmWiki is the most accuratest recyclopedia ever!
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:35 pmJohn
Also Wiki a few years back had a “scholar” on board who wrote most of their stuff, turns out he was a big fake.
So I call it Fake-a-pedia.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:39 pmAD, your concern about obvious excuses used by racists is necessary. But on this one, I’m giving Paleo a pass. I just recently heard about Zo from Wake Up Black America so if WUBA and Zo are good sources, I support supporting them. I link to WUBA on my own blog. Good stuff, that black guy hates blacks too, since he’s a racist conservative.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:40 pmNo, that’s not right. It should go:
Anti-Muslim hate is not okay
Anti-Jew hate is not okay
Anti-Hax hate is okay
Steverino (69d941) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:40 pmML, perhaps you could read a book or take a class, and you would know what the so-called Golden Age of Islam entailed. That would be more effective than reading / rebutting wikipedia and such. Also, you could avoid saying things like “Moslems (sic) are notorious liars,” but it is fair to note that there is a great deal of exaggeration in describing this “Golden Age.” I think that there might be a bit of exaggeration in Western history too, no?
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:42 pmAnti Who?
WTF is a HAX?
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:43 pmYeah, ML, I’m the one that needs a refund from college. You, on the other hand, should investigate whether the group home can refund some of your SSI money.
Just a disgusting comment on your part.
timb (a83d56) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:45 pmCarlitos, when I was in HS, back in the stone age, Moslem was an accepted improper term for Mohammedanist (sp) and Muslim was an unaccepted improper bastardization of Moslem. “Black Muslim” became a moniker after I graduated HS and Calipso Louis made it a household term, shortened to Muslim later. That’s my understanding of the historicity of it, anyway. So, sic isn’t exactly fitting.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:47 pmPat, a Hacks (Hax, Huckster, Max Vomitron, etc) is a notorious dissembler and troll that is best ignored.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:48 pmML, apologies for assuming the obvious, but when someone types “I have zero against Jews or Blacks. I just refuse to be sucked into the thing commonly known as “White Guilt” … people can get the wrong idea. When it’s coupled with other insensitive comments about other groups, what our host would call the author’s intent can be difficult to discern.
John Hitchcock, you are right – my bad. I’m reading some American history and the term is Mohammedian.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:50 pmDoh. PP, not ML. Going back to work now. My spanish thinking must be affecting my english typing.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:52 pmName one human accomplishment in civiliazation that was inspired by Islam. Just one.
Leviticus pointed out that there are some. They stole numbers from the Hindus, including zero. Then they stole paper from the Chinese they encountered in a raiding party over toward India.
The chemistry was the best of the real discoveries and almost all of this was during the rule of Harun al Rashid and his son. Most of the translations, for that is what most of it was, were done by Christians who had “converted” to Islam and spoke Arabic and Syriac and Greek. Johannitus is the most famous one and much of the “translation movement” is his work with his students. After the Mongol invasion and sack of Baghdad, the golden age ended and the rise of the Turks ended most science in Muslim lands.
Interestingly, the Turks are restoring Hagia Sophia as a tourist attraction and have been stripping off the panels of calligraphy that covered the mosaics of the Byzantines. They thought the mosaics would be difficult to restore since they have been buried under plaster for centuries. In fact, what they have found is that the artisans, mostly Christian converts to Islam, had carefully protected the mosaics with straw so they were not damaged by the plaster. Obviously they expected Constantinople to be freed of Turkish rule and the church restored much sooner and wanted the mosaics protected. Many of the conversions were of similar degrees of piety.
One tenet of Islam that harmed them badly is the concept that Muslims have nothing to learn from infidels. The Europeans were ignored after the Crusades although most management of the Ottoman Empire was actually done by Greeks, called Levantines because the sun rises in the east, the levant. The Ottomans cared for little but war and were badly shocked by the French invasion of Egypt in 1798. Then, they realized how far behind they had gotten but they have never been able to catch up. The myth of Muslim science refers to a very short period of about 100 years in the Ninth century.
I tend to agree with JRM about VOA language but the fact is that the VOA is being emasculated with respect to the news, not just terms being used. Kilcullen uses the term takfiris for the terrorists and that may be an appropriate term when speaking to Muslims. The term comes from the habits of the “crazies” who declare everyone else but themselves to be apostates.
Mike K (8df289) — 3/9/2009 @ 2:57 pmAnd by the way: since all you faux-scholars (ML, GM Roper) seem to demonstrate your indisputable academic superiority by attacking Wikipedia as a source, here’s another one.
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:11 pmTimb the resident troll
I am sure the irony is lost with you, but for the last 6 mouths or so you have made nothing but personal attacks on me here and more so at Darleen’s.
So to expect me to adhere to some standard that you yourself do not nor will not adhere to is the pinnacle of your illiberal asshat hypocrisy. Although in your defense it is typical amoral liberal standards.
And I have told you many times in the past I will not be kind to you, because you have proven time and time again you are not worthy of such treatment.
So put that on top of your GAIA hat and keep using it as your favorite chair.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:36 pmCould someone remind just who was it that burned the great library at Alexandria?
AD - RtR/OS (8ef6a3) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:38 pmI hope you’re not saying that I am. Because I can assure you, I am not.
Paleo Pat (67719c) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:46 pmProbably an improper substitution of a comma for a colon.
AD - RtR/OS (8ef6a3) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:49 pmSort of – it was an instrument called an Astrolabe, although not invented by Muslims, they did convert it into a practical navigation device (the Universal Astrolabe). Unlike previous devices, this one could be used independently of latitude, which meant it was a portable navigational computer.
Trigonometry and astronomy (not astrophysics, but astronomy) almost define navigation by default. My bad, I thought it was obvious.
I am no expert in Islamic navigation contributions, but they seemed to center on advances of geometry, algebra, trigonometry, and spherical trigonometry (not necessarily developed by Islamic culture, but without dispute, advanced and distributed throughout their worldwide trading routes of antiquity).
Agreed — wholeheartedly.
Now it’s been kinda fun arguing about Islamic history (I am no expert), but maybe we can agree on the need to destroy Islamic terrorism. Name it, find it, kill it.
Too bad our current administration is having a hard time with step one.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.”
Pons Asinorum (87c424) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:53 pmSun Tzu
And just because I spell Moslem instead of Muslim does not imply hate.
I don’t really care what the “acceptable” spelling is, if you don’t like it, then you have a personal problem.
And just to prove I don’t hate “Moslems” I took a Moslem and a “Palestinian” one at that fishing out to the Channel Islands on my boat, although I threatened to use him as shark bait, I did not.
And I just went out and purchased a 12 pack and cigarettes from Mohammed and we had a nice long hour conversation.
What a hater I am, I denounce myself.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:53 pmWithout it, they feel small.
Funny, that’s the same feeling Maxie gets when he looks into his pants.
because it had retained a lot of the Greek philosophers and mathematicians’ writings
As did the Irish Monks during the Dark Ages. You can read The Book of Kells when visiting Dublin to view some of their important safeguarding of the world’s knowledge at that time.
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 3:54 pm# 108. Pons Asinorum
And that was my whole contention, Islam did not invent it, they may have advanced it during their time, but they did not invent it as they so claim. Can it be proven that those who advanced it during that time were Moslem or were they just living under them?
You are taking to a land surveyor here, although not licensed I have 20+ years in the business.
So I am well aware what navigation is and what it entails. And I have a fairly good understanding of the history of navigation.
So if this Astrolabe was really and truly a portable navigation computer then why the need to invent Longitude?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:08 pmSo you are an open-minded staff sergeant, or maybe a chicano zebra?
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:10 pmPaleo aka Chucles Atkins has a less than stellar history of good behavior.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:11 pmJohn, how could you? I went to great effort and mind bending mind bending to come up with Max Vomitorium and you perverted it to Vomitron… OMG, my fragile ego may never overcome this.
Where do I apply for SSI?
Is there a group home that will take me?
(all said with tongue firmly embedded in cheek)
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:13 pmComment by Mercedes-3/9/2009@4:13 pm
Sorry, Packard, I’m not good with names. It was all my mistake.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:17 pmI guess we shouldn’t make any reference either to the Mamelukes or the Musselmen.
Hitchens:
GM Roper who wants DRJ back on Patterico's Pontifications (85dcd7) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:26 pmGM, was that Adams and Jefferson? I recall that, when Adams was in London being ignored by every ambassador at court, one of the Barbary fiefdoms actually met with him. After this, he (and Jefferson I think) convinced the cash-starved treasury to cough up about $80 grand, and then found out this would barely cover Tripoli and “Algiers would want much more.” What a scam.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:32 pmJulius Caesar, most probably.
Steverino (69d941) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:33 pm“Name it, find it, kill it.”
Close, but not quite.
It should be: Name them, find them and kill them.
Silly to war against “terrorism,” while essential to fight terrorists. And language matters, a lot.
That’s precisely why it is so important not to mis-label terrorists as representatives of Islam. They are not. They are fake religious gangsters who merely use Islam as a cover.
It’s telling that Muslim-haters cling to their bastardized fantasy definitions of Islam. No surprise there: that definition is the cornerstone of their thinking on geopolitics.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:44 pmI especially do not like those splodeydope Baptists, Hacks. And those homicide bombing Methodists are despicable.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:47 pmAt least there aren’t 150 million Methodists!
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:50 pmCould someone remind just who was it that burned the great library at Alexandria?
Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the destruction of the Library of Alexandria:
(1)Julius Caesar’s Fire in The Alexandrian War, in 48 BC
Emperor7 (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:54 pm(2)The attack of Aurelian in the third century AD;
(3)The decree of Theophilus in AD 391;
(4)The Muslim conquest in AD 642 or thereafter.
I am putting my bet on the fourth on the list.
Hack, and just how was it that you decided that terrorists are “fake” ? Just how was it that you were annointed the arbiter of what is and is not “real” Islam?
SPQR (72771e) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:56 pm# 111
And that was my whole contention, Islam did not invent it, they may have advanced it during their time, but they did not invent it as they so claim. Can it be proven that those who advanced it during that time were Moslem or were they just living under them?
Okie-dokie. Just as I was answering (I forgot who), were there Islamic contributions, which was the original question. If one invents steel, and another invents a steel hammer, who gets credit for what? To me a contribution does not mean an absolutely original idea — just a significant improvement to humanity’s knowledge, technology, art, etc. Okay we disagree — no big deal really. Truthfully I have about as much use for modern day Islamic philosophy as an extra dog-turd on my lawn.
You are taking to a land surveyor here, although not licensed I have 20+ years in the business.
So I am well aware what navigation is and what it entails. And I have a fairly good understanding of the history of navigation.
I totally believe you — no dispute from me. I am a licensed pilot myself, although it has been a while since I’ve piloted.
So if this Astrolabe was really and truly a portable navigation computer then why the need to invent Longitude?
I am guessing that Longitude was invented by some mathematician in ancient Greece, simply because lat, lon and alt are all properties of spherical coordinates (it’s been a while but radius, phi and theta?). Maybe the lines were not marked on global charts or maps, but certainly the concept must have been known.
As you know, global navigation under any condition involves Lat, Lon and Alt. For surface vessels or caravans, altitude is not that important. Longitude is needed to precisely to define position on the globe. Without it, global voyages are sort of hit or miss, but if you can stay with a known latitude and if you can figure you heading roughly, you will probably hit the continent of your choice. Islands might be a bit more dicey 😉
The Universal Astrolabe only provided latitude info. Its significance was that it was portable. Previous astrolabes (although small) were aligned with a specific lat. Take it to a different lat, it would not function accurately. This was a huge advance for navigation.
Longitude involves accurate timekeeping, which was not possible back then (because no such timekeeping device was portable enough for practical use). My guess is when that guy you say invented it, did so because some sort of mechanical clock was devised by some genius. You cited a Renaissance time period I believe, so probably a European invention.
ML, I hear my mommie calling for me — I gotta go – you take care.
Pons Asinorum (87c424) — 3/9/2009 @ 4:58 pmSorry for all the bastardization and all the hate.
The Qur’an does not represent Mohammadanism, they read a different book.
Kinda Ironic how the hate is coming from somewhere else.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:01 pmThat’s precisely why it is so important not to mis-label terrorists as representatives of Islam. They are not. They are fake religious gangsters who merely use Islam as a cover.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:04 pmThat’s where you are wrong, Hax. Islam teaches violence against infidels. None Muslims. Have you ever read a Koran before? Those so-called “fake” Muslims you speak of are the true followers and practitioners of the teachings of the prophet. Islam is equals to hate and violence.
So if this Astrolabe was really and truly a portable navigation computer then why the need to invent Longitude?
Comment by ML
The astrolabe and backstaff were both devices to measure latitude with the sun and the elevation of navigational stars. The astrolabe was similar to a device still used called a “starfinder.” Both allow you to set up the disc (There are also digital starfinders now, too.) by the date and the stars are then located on a disc that represents the celestial hemisphere. They are used mostly in astronomy but I have used mine for navigation. You need a nautical almanac to plot the planets as they vary in location while stars are fixed.
The Chinese invented the compass and the rudder. Obviously the rudder had many other asynchronous inventors. Until the 18th century, and even after that, the navigators did “latitude sailing” in which they sailed the known latitude of a landmark until they found it. Actually that is how Columbus discovered the western hemisphere because he was sailing the known latitude of Cathay,
The chronometer was a huge invention, the inventor was awarded 25,000 pounds, but the early ones were quite large and unwieldy. Joshua Slocum circumnavigated in the late 1890s with latitude plus lunar determination of longitude. He had no chronometer. In 1981, I used a Texas Instruments digital watch as a chronometer.
The Arabs’ sailing was all coastal navigation. The first great navigator was Prince Henry of Portugal.
The second factor was the invention of the caravel, the first ship capable of sea voyages.
Arab navigation was less sophisticated than Chinese and no more sophisticated than Greek of the Classical Era.
Mike K (f89cb3) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:06 pm“you were annointed the arbiter of what is and is not “real” Islam?”
Read my post again.
I make clear that it’s up to Muslims to define their religion.
And only a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists and the vast majority condemn the bin Ladenism you think of as the real Islam.
Why not let Muslims define their own religion?
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:14 pmPons Asinorum
By saying it was a true navigation computer, to me you insinuated it was not just measuring Latitude, but both coordinates as in Longitude also. So this was nothing more than a forerunner to the sextant and nothing being added to what the Greeks already knew.
The English guy who invented Longitude was “the watch maker” who used and invented his very own time piece. Although he went though many different types before he discovered his pocket watch was the best answer.
At the time astronomy was also competing for the answer to Longitude, the difference being the calculations took far to long when compared to doing it by time.
Ironically today GPS is based solely upon time and of course atomic clocks have made that possible.
Did Moslems also invent the atomic clock?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:15 pm[…] Don’t call it “radical Islam” […]
‘No Sharia / One Law For All’ demo/meeting, London 7th March 2009 « Tony Blair (5c299c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:16 pmNot this bullshit again. 150,000,000
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:17 pmStudying the Koran, Hax, you will find over 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. The ones you like to call peace-loving and moderate Muslims are actually referred to as hypocrites. Fake Muslims.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:17 pmIn Hacks’ world, we should refer to them as anti-Islamic who just happen to follow the teachings of the Quran and Mohammed, but are most certainly not Muslim, despite their claims to be.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:21 pmEmp: you will also find verses that proscribe murder and killing, be it of Muslims or non-Muslims.
Like all religious texts, the Koran contains many contradictions.
As I’m sure you know, the Bible includes many incitements to killing and slavery, etc. and many proscriptions of it as well.
It is up to believers in these religions to interpret these contradictions.
Inasmuch as you are openly hostile to Islam, I’m sure you will agree that your interpretations will always be suspect.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:25 pmJD: like i said: “Name them. Find them. Kill them.”
If your definition of terrorist includes all Muslims, you’re not doing that.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:28 pmDid Moslems also invent the atomic clock?
Comment by ML — 3/9/2009 @ 5:15 pm
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:35 pmYes. Didn’t you read the link? I also heard Henry Ford was a closet Muslim. So were the McDonalds brothers. Bill Gates and Tim Patterson also got inspiration for
Microsoft after reading the koran 100 times!
As I’m sure you know, the Bible includes many incitements to killing and slavery, etc. and many proscriptions of it as well.
It is up to believers in these religions to interpret these contradictions
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:43 pmWrong again Hax. Christianity does not teach violence. The founder Himself, Jesus of Nazareth, Son of the living God set the example of love, forgiveness and respect for human rights. He laid down His life for us all. Who did Muhammad die for? Are you even going to compare Jesus’ teachings with that of Muhammad?
JD, I believe that the BBC actually is referring to Muslim terrorists as “anti-islamic.”
By the way, I like the sleight-of-hand employed in the response to your post. Very clever. As if saying “male bank robbers” insults all males.
carlitos (677a23) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:50 pm“Why not let Muslims define their own religion?”
Hax – One reason is that it’s nice to try to understand the people who have been waging a war of terror against you since at least the 1970s rather than taking their admittedly contradictory texts at face value as you do. You look at the nice words, others look at the ugly words AND the ugly deeds. You focus ONLY on binLadenism, when there many many more extremists (wait for the retort, I didn’t say bin Laden was the only extremist).
Hax, you and Marshall Petain would have been great buddies.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:50 pmAs someone who has taught Coastal Navigation, it is my understanding that the Astrolabe is a crude,
AD - RtR/OS (8ef6a3) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:50 pmportable Dead-Reckoning computer that was a great advancement over what was currently in use at the time.
Also, the Polynesians were known to use D-R to sail great distances over the Pacific from island to island, but IIRC it was an oral science handed down generation to generation.
Hax
I know you have never read the Bible, but the Old Testament requires death for abduction and the 10 commandments say stealing is wrong, why you think that applies only to goods and not people, only you would know.
But that is typical liberal anti-Christian bigoted thinking, claiming nothing but BS things only to make your anti-Christian bigoted position appear correct.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:53 pmHax – Can you say tiny, tiny minority a few more times. It sends goosebumps up and down my arms like when I volunteer at the mental hospital and the patients make weird noises at me.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 3/9/2009 @ 5:53 pmYes, that same “tiny minority” tends to cause great loss of life, if given the remotest chance. So find them and kill them before they kill you – self – defense, what a concept.
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:01 pmHacks must be an heir to the Massengill fortune.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:03 pmHax?
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:08 pm“As if saying “male bank robbers” insults all males.”
Excellent parallel.
Any decent editor would axe “male” forthwith as irrelevant to the crime or its context.
Likewise, we wouldn’t write “Christian bank robber,” even if the suspect claimed he did it because God told him to.
ML: I have nothing against Christians. I don’t much like Christ’s teachings, but that’s a personal choice and no judgment on the integrity or moral standing of others who do like it and/or adhere to it. I judge the religion at large by the actions of its followers and, on that score, the balance is well on the side of good.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:17 pmPerfect. This same illogic has the LA times excluding race from descriptions of dangerous fugitives. What a fucking tool. Sod off, asswipe.
carlitos (677a23) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:26 pmHacks must be an heir to the Massengill fortune.
I’m thinking Jergens.
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:29 pmI don’t much like Christ’s teachings
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:32 pmBut He sure likes you, Hax. More than you will ever know. He died on the cross to prove it. He is love. All you need is to believe in Him and call upon Him and you will be saved.
I don’t much like Christ’s teachings?!?!
Yeah … Don’t steal, don’ lie, don’t kill, don’t covet are truly objectionable concepts.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:33 pmYou’re feeding the troll again. Remember that rewarding behavior leads to more of that behavior, whether it is crime or trolling.
Mike K (2cf494) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:36 pmCarlitos: nothing wrong with including ethnicity and/or skin color among the traits in a description of a fugitive. The problem would be in using ethnicity as a defining modifier: A black bank robber was seen fleeing from the scene.
“A black male bank robber…” is acceptable, since black is then modifying male, rather than bank robber.
Language matters.
Notice that reports on the recent violence in Northern Ireland does not refer to “Catholic terrorists” or even “Catholic gunmen.” It correctly, uniformly within the mainstream media, identifies the subjects as members of a specific group, without linking that group to the religion.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:41 pmHe knows not what he says. He does not realize that the freedom he enjoys today is based upon the Christ’s teachings he hates. Jesus forgives you, Hax. So do I.
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:44 pmThe change in vocabulary that the post refers to is not only Orwellian but is at the very least the first step in capitulation and publicly expressing and acknowledging fear. When one is no longer brave enough to name the enemy and caves to the fear, the enemy immediately has the upper hand. This is a most dreadful step to take. See: Great Britain, Holland, and other European countries that all gave in to that first step of surrender.
Whether Clark Hoyt attempting to justify his backing down in the pages of the NYT or at the VoA, something seemingly innocuous and simply P.C. is something far more telling and with far more serious implications.
Dana (137151) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:53 pmLanguage matters.
How’s that pet ocelot of yours doing? Whiskers is his name, yes?
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:57 pmEmperor: How can you forgive me when, as a Christian, you were never in a position to judge me in the first place?
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:58 pmSo, Hacks is saying that the phrasing of Islamic terrorist is redundant? Kind of like saying liberal media.
Completely off topic, but 2 1/2 Men was an insta-classic.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:59 pmSorry, Mike K. Won’t happen again.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 6:59 pm[…] from Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano to Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, and now, via Patterico, we have guidelines for the Voice of America to refrain from using terms like “Islamic […]
Obama administration signals troubling foreign policy shifts « Wellsy’s World (962ecf) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:13 pmkthxBYE
Do not feed the trolls.
steve miller (c76b20) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:15 pmComment by Hax Vobiscum — 3/9/2009 @ 6:58 pm
Emperor7 who now sees the light. (1b037c) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:19 pmStill I forgive you, Hax. You won’t perish for your blasphemy. The Emperor is merciful. 🙁
You two belong in a room somewhere far, far away.
Dmac (49b16c) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:32 pm# 148 Hax
I judge the religion at large by the actions of its followers
Wow, how strange, so while its wrong for me to judge Mohammadanism by what their followers do, its acceptable for you to judge Christians by what they do.
Now you only do that because you can find sinful men who are Christians doing bad things and you could care less whether they are obeying scripture or not. So it all fits so nicely into your pigeonholes.
Me on the other hand want to know if Moslems are following their scripture of just being sinful men.
And you wonder why people here don’t take you seriously.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:37 pm# 158 Hax
How can you forgive me when, as a Christian, you were never in a position to judge me in the first place?
Hax you are right, when someone murders someone else, we can not make a judgment.
When driving and someone interposes on my right of way, I cant decide if that is wrong or right.
Maybe it would be best of you go back to sitting on Al Gores GAIA hat, it is what fits you best.
If the hat fits, sit on it.
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:42 pm“its wrong for me to judge Mohammadanism by what their followers do, its acceptable for you to judge Christians by what they do.”
No ML. I’ve said the opposite.
Judge Muslims by what they do. The vast majority are peace-loving, caring people who have no involvement whatsoever in terrorism or any other kind of violence.
Judging an entire group of people on the basis of the bad behavior of tiny minority among them is what bigotry is all about…
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:46 pm150,000,000
Given Leftists views that billions and trillions are no big deal, it is understandable how a number like that would be insignificant to Hacks.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:54 pmFrom now on, when we refer to the ruling party of Palestine, we shall no longer refer to them as Hamas. They are to be called the anti-islamic Baptist extremists. No more Hezbollah, they are now anti-islamic Lutheran splodeydopes.
JD (5ffaf3) — 3/9/2009 @ 7:57 pmIt would be silly to build an entire homeland security apparatus around solely islamic terror, when Bush declared that the war on terror was not limited as such, nor are threats to the homeland.
imdw (aacaa9) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:10 pmOnly a tiny minority? I wish I weren’t too lazy to copy and paste all the arguments already made elsewhere on this site, in response to Hax’s assertion on that very same point. He ignored almost all of them when they were first made; he’ll surely do so again.
Hax is too much of a pansy to come to grips with the evidence against his position. He just ignores 90 percent of it, and responds to the other 10 percent by either lying or going off on irrelevant tangents.
Alan (551a6d) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:22 pmComment by JD — 3/9/2009 @ 7:57 pm
Close, JD, but not quite…from the NYT bit I linked,
To the consternation of many, The Times does not call Hamas a terrorist organization, though it sponsors acts of terror against Israel. Hamas was elected to govern Gaza. It provides social services and operates charities, hospitals and clinics. Corbett said: “You get to the question: Somebody works in a Hamas clinic — is that person a terrorist? We don’t want to go there.” I think that is right. “Our general view is that the word terrorist is politically loaded and overused.” But he said that sometimes, “when a person’s act has been examined and its intent and result clearly understood, we call him a terrorist.”
Dana (137151) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:31 pm“This is Orwellian”
The VOA is a propaganda outlet. What do you expect?
imdw (e8b540) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:37 pmDana – It is sad when my attempt at parody so closely mirrors real life.
JD (dcb91d) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:38 pmYou get to the question: Somebody works in a Hamas clinic —
is that person a terrorist?We don’t want to go there.No, I wouldn’t want to go to a Hamas clinic either. Good point.
imdw- please cite, source and link your objections to the VOA. Descendants of 50’s – 60’s Hungarians and late 20th-Century cubans want to know.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:51 pmJD – I keep hearing one reason why muslim men are so angry all the time is that they are incredibly sexually frustrated. I think our progressive sisters ought to help them out, take one for the team so to speak. We could call the efforts –
Harlots for Hamas
and
Ho’s for Hezbollah
I think it’s a winner.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:51 pmTiny minority refers to the proportion, not the total.
If you’re one in a million in China, there are thousands just like you.
The suggestion that I somehow don’t believe radical Islam is a public safety threat is absurd.
First and foremost, it is a clear and present threat to Islam itself and, in particular, to unstable, weak regimes in the Middle East.
This is why it is so important not to allow bin Ladenist fake religious gangsters to define Islam for their own convenience. It is just as important not to let Muslim-haters in the U.S. help bin Laden achieve that.
Shibley Telhami, Anwar Sadat professor at the University of Maryland, directs polls and attitude surveys for the Program on International Public Attitudes.
These surveys show that “about 6 percent of about 300-million people in the Arab world support al-Qaida’s message of confronting the United States.”
Survey data of the entire Muslim world is not available, but polling by the Pew Global Attitudes Project in 2007 shows that support for attacks against civilians varies widely from 70 percent in the Palestinian territories to 34 percent in Lebanon to 8 percent in Egypt.
Overall, says the PEW study, “wide majorities (of Muslims) say such attacks are, at most, rarely acceptable.”
It’s important, Telhami said, to consider what the word “support” means: “Support is often a reflection of anger rather than ideology. It’s far different from joining groups or being prepared to conduct terrorism,” he said.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 8:58 pmMendouchesness redux
JD (dcb91d) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:04 pmRARELY acceptable. Wow. That says such wonderful things about the wide majorities of Muslims.
If “wide majorities” of Americans say that lynchings of blacks “are, at most, rarely acceptable,” would Hax say that only a tiny minority of Americans are racist? No–he’d say that wide majorities are.
Hypocrite. Liar. Jackass.
Alan (551a6d) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:05 pmCome back and fight like a man, you wuss.
Alan (551a6d) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:19 pm“JD – I keep hearing one reason why muslim men are so angry all the time is that they are incredibly sexually frustrated.”
Looks like they need some feminism and sexual revolution. Hope the Islamic Phyllis Schlafly can handle it.
imdw (c7debc) — 3/9/2009 @ 9:31 pmAlan, instead of name-calling and silly hypotheticals, let’s look at what actual polls show:
The University of Maryland’s Program on International Public Attitudes, in December 2006, conducted a concurrent public opinion poll of the United States and Iran to determine the comparative views of each country’s citizens on a variety of questions.
One of the questions was whether “bombings and other types of attacks intentionally aimed at civilians are sometimes justified”?
51 percent of Americans approved of such attacks, compared with 16 percent of Iranians. Interestingly, only 13 percent of American Muslims approved of such attacks.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/jan07/Iran_Jan07_rpt.pdf
The data are in: Americans are more, not less, likely to approve of attacks intentionally aimed at civilians than are people in Muslims countries.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:07 pmmuslim men are so angry all the time is that they are incredibly sexually frustrated.”
There is a tragic irony: they are sexually frustrated yet the Very Thing they desire that will relieve the frustration is the Very Thing they value less than a dog and treat even worse, yet it’s also the Very Thing they find irresistible – so much so that that Very Thing must be covered up so the irresistible can be stifled lest these men are most frustratingly drawn to its feminine vortex of power. How horrible to be controlled by the Very Thing one loathes. This is a religion of internal wars. For both sexes.
Dana (137151) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:10 pmHacks is a liar.
JD (dcb91d) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:13 pmIn other news, generalissimo franco is still dead.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:15 pmimdw – Get over there and do your part for world peace.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:15 pm“imdw – Get over there and do your part for world peace.”
How’s that?
imdw (c990d8) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:18 pmJD is a gentleman and a scholar.
Hax Vobiscum (23258e) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:20 pmThe data are in. imdw won’t be backing up its statements regarding VOA anytime soon.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:23 pmI wonder what Hax does when the majority is 51%, I guess he discounts the other 50% based upon the 1% difference?
ML (14488c) — 3/9/2009 @ 10:41 pmSo much for critical thinking skills, but we all knew that anyways.
That is why I posted a link by authorities so that subjective interpretations from my poor writing would be confined from making assumptions not explicitly stated.
Not solely time, as the position coordinates of the satellites must also be known.
No, and I am just hoping they do not build an atomic bomb.
Pons Asinorum (87c424) — 3/9/2009 @ 11:16 pmIt doesn’t mean Islam is inherently fundamentalist or extreme or terroristic.
But it sure doesn’t help that Mohammed was a known warrior and assassin. IOW, if I were a fanatic in the religion of Islam, it wouldn’t be quite so difficult for me to stretch the theology of my religion, per the history of its founder, to fit my penchant for radical, fanatical behavior.
Simply put, assassins generally aren’t too far removed from a radical, fanatical way of thinking and approach to life.
Mark (411533) — 3/10/2009 @ 12:47 amPons Asinorum
You are correct and my wording was inaccurate in specific terms, when I used the word “solely”, although I wasn’t trying to write a book on how GPS works, I was speaking to the layman understanding of it.
From your link: The distance to the GPS satellites can be determined by estimating the amount of time it takes for their signals to reach the receiver.
I didn’t think I had to get anymore in-depth then that and bring up ephemeris data because I was not being that precise.
I also did not mention that when these satellite signals are close to the horizon or any large solid object they bounce off of including the atmosphere, buildings, trees, cars, trucks, vans or anything solid and thus cause errors in time and thus position.
I also did not mention that high end survey grade GPS uses L1 and L2 frequencies to compensate for atmospheric anomalies. Although the L2 frequency is reserved for government use these Geodetic or survey grade GPS receivers are able to use this L2 frequency to compensate for atmospheric anomalies.
I also did not mention that some survey grade GPS receiver also use the Russian GPS system known as GLONASS with a total of 14 sats, I believe and they combine that with the US system because the more sats you acquire the quicker your position will be fixed or solved.
I also did not mention that it takes a minimum of 3 sats to get a 2D position, and 4 sats to get a 3D position. I didn’t mention that I would never work with GPS if I had less than 6 sats or an HDOP of 5 or a VDOP of 3 unless I didn’t care about elevation.
How far do I take this, should I speak about RTK or Static or Rapid Static GPS?
ML (14488c) — 3/10/2009 @ 2:13 amAlan, instead of name-calling and silly hypotheticals….
Way to dodge the question. The point is, you said that only a tiny minority of Muslims support this, and you cited data showing support by wide majorities of Muslims. Forget the hypothetical nature of my question; this is about current reality: specifically, your complete lack of integrity. If wide majorities of Americans said that lynchings of blacks are only rarely justified, you would say that wide majorities of Americans are racist. Yet we know that wide majorities of Muslims support the murder of civilians and you said only a tiny minority of Muslims support that kind of conduct. That’s because you’re a hypocrite. And you just dodge my question because you’re too much of a coward to come to grips with the fact that you’re treating Muslims and Americans inconsistently. You bend over backwards to defend Islam, damn the evidence and damn your self-contradictions.
The data are in: Americans are more, not less, likely to approve of attacks intentionally aimed at civilians than are people in Muslims countries.
Excuse me? You admitted that “wide majorities” of Muslims approved of attacks against civilians. Contrast that with 51 percent of Americans, which any idiot can tell is not a wide majority. You really have no shame at all, do you? You’re an even biggar liar than Paul Krugman.
You said only a tiny minority of Muslims support this kind of conduct, while admitting that in fact “wide majorities” support it. You say Americans are more likely than Muslims to support this kind of conduct, while saying that “wide majorities” of Muslims but only a bare majority of Americans support it. Do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you tell such transparent lies?
Alan (551a6d) — 3/10/2009 @ 5:27 amAlan, you may want to consider that you are not debating an honest, rational actor. That will help some when the dishonest, goalpost-moving response shows up here, probably sometime this afternoon, US time. Just let it go.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/10/2009 @ 5:58 amSorry missed this:
“imdw- please cite, source and link your objections to the VOA. Descendants of 50’s – 60’s Hungarians and late 20th-Century cubans want to know.”
I have no objection to VOA.
imdw (e8b540) — 3/10/2009 @ 6:00 amYou have no objections to US propaganda being beamed into totalitarian countries? Awesome. I love when open-minded folks can agree on stuff.
carlitos (3f0da9) — 3/10/2009 @ 6:05 amYeah, we should probably use it to do stuff like secure our borders. Good thinking, imdw.
Pablo (99243e) — 3/10/2009 @ 6:44 amTroll mathematics:
If you’re one in a million in China, there are thousands just like you.
Sort of reminds me of the old Swedish carpenter joke. He was asked how many thousandths were in an inch. “Oh there must be a million of them !”
Mike K (2cf494) — 3/10/2009 @ 7:08 amSo i guess “scumbag goat-humping IslamEic terrorists” is right out then, is it?
mojo (8096f2) — 3/10/2009 @ 8:41 amMr. ML,
Sir, let’s please review.
#33 A general challenge too “Name one human accomplishment in civilization that was inspired by Islam. Just one.”
#46 Along with other writers, I named “math, science, medicine, astronomy, navigation…”
#56 You challenge “navigation” as an accomplishment and ask “what did Moslems invent with navigation, did they have GPS way back in 13th century?”
#110 I provide links by authorities, one which leads to the Universal Astrolabe.
#113 You make two false assumptions. Neither the links given nor I suggested the Astrolabe was invented by a Muslim; you however, assume this to be true and the reason it is deemed significant by historians. That is false.
The second assumption had to do with the technical capabilities of a universal astrolabe. This led you to conclude that it could not have possibly been important (good logic, just bad premise).
#126 False assumptions are corrected, politely.
#131 You then blame me for your faulty assumptions, despite the fact that you did not read the link provided. You also state a true fact about the operation about GPS.
#191 I remind you about the links (from authorities far smarter than me). I then point out that GPS needs position coordinates as well as time (oh, the horror).
#193 Now you seek to impress me with your knowledge of GPS (mission accomplished BTW). You talk L1 and L2. I was prepared to get into a RAIMs discussion.
Then I ask myself, “Self, why all the drama?”
I have met the original challenge, and yours, in an intellectually honest manner. Feel free to disagree; it will not hurt my feelings.
Hope you are not too upset, as I like your blogs and normally find myself in agreement with many of your positions (even in this thread I largely agree with you, we just have a difference of opinion on an aspect of history).
Either way, good luck—
Pons Asinorum (87c424) — 3/10/2009 @ 11:21 amPons Asinorum
I was not trying to impress you, I was making a point by going over board.
But apparently I failed. I think you mentioned you are a pilot, so I would expect you to know about GPS as it pertains to navigation with aircraft.
I don’t think we need to rehash this again when it would just be a repeat of what was already said.
ML (14488c) — 3/10/2009 @ 12:10 pm