Patterico's Pontifications

7/12/2016

President Obama Pushes Politics At Memorial Service For Slain Officers

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:54 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I watched President Obama memorialize the five slain officers in Dallas today. Joined by Mrs. Obama, President Bush and Mrs. Bush, and Vice-President Biden and Dr. Jill Biden, it was, at times, a very heart-felt and eloquent speech. He spoke with obvious respect about each individual officer and their families, as well as recognized their invaluable contributions to their communities. I have no doubt that the slain officers’ families were deeply moved. And I hope, comforted.

And then, disappointingly expectedly, President Obama, who sought to console and reassure, began to push his particular brand of politics and propaganda before the captive audience:

When anyone, no matter how good their intentions may be, paints all police as biased, or bigoted, we undermine those officers that we depend on for our safety. And as for those who use rhetoric suggesting harm to police, even if they don’t act on it themselves, well, they not only make the jobs of police officers even more dangerous, but they do a disservice to the very cause of justice that they claim to promote.

We also know that centuries of racial discrimination, of slavery, and subjugation, and Jim Crow; they didn’t simply vanish with the law against segregation. They didn’t necessarily stop when a Dr. King speech, or when the civil rights act or voting rights act were signed. Race relations have improved dramatically in my lifetime. Those who deny it are dishonoring the struggles that helped us achieve that progress. But we know…

But America, we know that bias remains. We know it, whether you are black, or white, or Hispanic, or Asian, or native American, or of Middle Eastern descent, we have all seen this bigotry in our own lives at some point. We’ve heard it at times in our own homes. If we’re honest, perhaps we’ve heard prejudice in our own heads and felt it in our own hearts. We know that. And while some suffer far more under racism’s burden, some feel to a far greater extent discrimination’s stain. Although most of us do our best to guard against it and teach our children better, none of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune, and that includes our police departments. We know this.

And so when African-Americans from all walks of life, from different communities across the country, voice a growing despair over what they perceive to be unequal treatment, when study after study shows that whites and people of color experience the criminal justice system differently. So that if you’re black, you’re more likely to be pulled over or searched or arrested; more likely to get longer sentences; more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime. When mothers and fathers raised their kids right, and have the talk about how to respond if stopped by a police officer — yes, sir; no, sir — but still fear that something terrible may happen when their child walks out the door; still fear that kids being stupid and not quite doing things right might end in tragedy.

When all this takes place, more than 50 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, we cannot simply turn away and dismiss those in peaceful protest as troublemakers or paranoid.

We can’t simply dismiss it as a symptom of political correctness or reverse racism. To have your experience denied like that, dismissed by those in authority, dismissed perhaps even by your white friends and coworkers and fellow church members, again and again and again, it hurts. Surely we can see that, all of us.

We also know what Chief Brown has said is true, that so much of the tensions between police departments and minority communities that they serve is because we ask the police to do too much and we ask too little of ourselves.

As a society, we choose to under-invest in decent schools. We allow poverty to fester so that entire neighborhoods offer no prospect for gainful employment. We refuse to fund drug treatment and mental health programs.

We flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book.

And then we tell the police, “You’re a social worker; you’re the parent; you’re the teacher; you’re the drug counselor.” We tell them to keep those neighborhoods in check at all costs and do so without causing any political blowback or inconvenience; don’t make a mistake that might disturb our own peace of mind. And then we feign surprise when periodically the tensions boil over.

We know those things to be true. They’ve been true for a long time. We know it. Police, you know it. Protesters, you know it. You know how dangerous some of the communities where these police officers serve are. And you pretend as if there’s no context. These things we know to be true. And if we cannot even talk about these things, if we cannot talk honestly and openly, not just in the comfort of our own circles, but with those who look different than us or bring a different perspective, then we will never break this dangerous cycle.

In the end, it’s not about finding policies that work. It’s about forging consensus and fighting cynicism and finding the will to make change.

I think if I was a family member of one of the slain officers, I would be rather disappointed that the president could not resist crassly using my loved one’s memorial service as a political soap box. While I think politics a necessary mechanism in life, I don’t believe a memorial service where five heroic men are being honored and remembered is the correct setting at which to push anyone’s agenda. (Except, cynically, unless there’s an upcoming election. Then it makes perfect sense.)

Anyway, I’ll point you to Ben Shapiro, who has taken the time to comment about several issues that were particularly objectionable in the president’s speech: Equating the murders of the Dallas police officers with the killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile; suggesting that today’s police departments are rife with the legacies of slavery and Jim Crow; citing statistics meant to indict the police; defending the agenda of Black Lives Matter; and, pushing gun control.

–Dana

62 Responses to “President Obama Pushes Politics At Memorial Service For Slain Officers”

  1. God bless the families of the five officers. I really do hope they found comfort today.

    (I hate being this cynical. Or realistic…)

    Dana (995455)

  2. he was raised to be an uneducated, narcissistic, America hating, dishonest douche bag of a racist…

    so it’s no surprise when he acts like one.

    F him with a falming pinapple, sideways.

    redc1c4 (c3507e)

  3. that’s “flaming pineapple”

    pro tip: always spellcheck before you hit “submit comment”

    😎

    redc1c4 (c3507e)

  4. Predictably, Barack referred to himself 45 times during the speech.

    A funeral service is neither the time nor place for politics. It should be all about the deceased and providing comfort to their families.
    It’s not about you, Barack.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  5. We flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book.

    I betcha that it is easier to buy a book. Cheaper, too.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  6. We flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book.

    How many times will this get fact-checked, do you think?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  7. I left something in another thread.

    That thing about books was one of the more absurd things said, and a melodious tone of voice doesn’t make it accurate. It’s not even true for computers. I mean really.

    Sammy Finkelman (c82029)

  8. the whole thing is ridiculous, sammeh, there was the deliberate execution of five police officers, and he pretends he had nothing to do, by stoking the fire,

    narciso (732bc0)

  9. He can’t help himself. The self-love and preening never stop.

    What a contrast it was to watch and hear former President Bush’s heartfelt expression of sympathy and gratitude, as he honored the murdered officers and their brothers and sisters.

    Colonel Haiku (ae69e2)

  10. It’s easier for a teenager to buy a glock than a book?
    So a teenager can go into Barnes & Noble and buy a glock, but he needs a 14 day waiting period to buy
    ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’?

    WTF is this Barack person talking about?
    What a POS.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  11. He complains about prejudging and about bias while prejudging that he knows all police departments practice prejudice. He was barely in office when he called those Boston cops stupid, and he’s been consistent since then. He’s fanned the flames of this movement even as they have called for dead cops, legitimizing the extremists.

    The least he could have done was resist the urge to score some political points at the funeral. About racism, about guns, he could have saved that for his twitter feed or something more appropriate for his shallow point of view.

    If Obama were right that kids can buy glocks more easily than a book, then I guess the solution isn’t gun laws. Apparently the government isn’t the key to communities being safe. Maybe we need to think about families, churches, and values, instead of relying on Obama to fix all our problems.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  12. Moral equivalency, much like what escapes the pie-hole of Jeh Johnson at every opportunity.

    Colonel Haiku (ae69e2)

  13. What Obama did here was what he deos every time there are racial arsonists he cannot ignore: Do fake moral equivalency between two sides in which he plays the peacemaker while trying to prevent people from putting out the fire by undermining the mythology because that would upset his base.

    The one thing Barack Obama won’t ever say is that there’s a mythology going on. Instead, he claims, it is not a mythology. This is going 180 degrees in the wrong direction. You can never resolve this by any kind of concession or change in policy because it is based on lies.

    206.The truth is, there are very few people killed unjustly by the police in the United states, and when there is, most of the time no protests are needed to get an investigation and a prosecution, and when police do wrong they’re just as likely to do it to someone is not black as to do it to someone who is black.

    That was even in the New York Times.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

    They actually overcorrect.

    officers in Houston were about 20 percent less likely to shoot if the suspects were black.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  14. We flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book.
    Maybe in the sense that some of those teens don’t know what a book is. /sarc

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  15. I read something in a column in the New York Daily News. I don’t even think the columnist understood what he was saying.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/errol-louis-americans-heal-thyselves-article-1.2707527

    My friend Kevin McCormack, a high school principal and Catholic deacon who is, with Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, a co-host of the “Religion on the Line” radio program, recently urged listeners to re-read the famous 1963 “Letter From a Birmingham Jail” by the Rev. Martin Luther King., Jr.

    “In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps,” King wrote from behind bars during one of the low points of the civil rights movement. “Collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action.”

    So what’s misisng?

    1. Collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist;

    They DON’T, in a general way.. Not that indidivual cases cannot exiat, not that policing cannot be improved.

    2. negotiation;

    You can’t correct something that doesn’t exist.

    At that time, it was stopping specific things, like segregated buses. And can anyone dream of demanding specific people be prosecuted? hat’s putting a thumb on the scales of justice.

    3. self purification

    That has not happened. No person Like marches, and boycotts and sit-ins.alking violence should be permitted at any demonstration. And there should also be an end to this self-righteousness.

    Only then:

    4. direct action

    Like marches, and boycotts and sit-ins.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  16. #12… very salient, that last paragraph.

    Colonel Haiku (ae69e2)

  17. Underwear Showdown (YouTube)

    Kevin Kline demonstrates the spiteful lawlessness of federal gun control legislation.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  18. I was in a pawn shop about a week ago. They had a selection of guns in the 3~5 hundred range, but just one ugly rust pitted 32 caliber for one hundred even. Just like the sutler’s store in Silverado.

    I laughed.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  19. Obama talked about poverty being allowed to “fester” in black communities, but not crime, which is what’s actually being allowed to fester to a greater or lesser degree. Instead he has this statistic about more bklacks being in prison. What’s important is how many crimes does somebody have to commit before they get into prison.

    Sammy Finkelman (c82029)

  20. I just never knew that Barnes & Noble sells glocks!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  21. In Baton there were three people, aged 20, 17 and 13 who stole guns from a pawnshop. They said they wanted to kill police because of what happened to the man selling CDs whom someone had comlained about that he had threatened someone with a gun, who may or may not have been trying to pull out his gun from his pocket after he was confronted by two policemen, but was not in any position to actually do so when he was shot at point blank range.

    Sammy Finkelman (c82029)

  22. I hear that in Iran it’s easier to get nukes than it is to get a Bible.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  23. “I would be rather disappointed that the president could not resist crassly using my loved one’s memorial service as a political soap box.”

    Indeed, Dubya was a disappointment given he let the assault weapons ban expire. The blood of thousands are on his hands.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  24. It doesn’t matter what Obama says. I’m past listening, he bores me to the point I just wish he’d shut the hell up and go play golf. Obama is an embarrassment to the nation, and a pox on the American people.

    ropelight (596f46)

  25. yes, it’s rank foolishness, but few get path the dolce and gabbani ’emperor’s wardrobes’ schoolchildren are told this makes sense, and then they end up like ginsburg in ‘howl’ driven mad and they know not why,

    narciso (732bc0)

  26. He clearly doesn’t like coming to Texas. He never has. The feeling is mostly mutual.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  27. What the F do kids, education, provably false contentions about easy access to Glocks and lack of libraries and used book stores in teh ‘hood have to do with a racist maniac murdering 5 cops?

    Nothing.

    What did his race-baiting, moral equivalency, and habitual reaching conclusions before the facts are in have to do with a racist maniac murdering 5 cops?

    Everything.

    Colonel Haiku (ae69e2)

  28. Wait…Obama made comments about racial disparity in how the law treats blacks versus whites, without mentioning the differing treatment of Bill Cosby versus Bill Clinton?

    Pete (fe4202)

  29. When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. All he’s got is his leftist Dogma.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  30. I just never knew that Barnes & Noble sells glocks!

    Heck, I can get books in the grocery store from the endcap one over from eggs. Maybe I should ask where the keep the Glocks.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  31. Stay assy.

    Mitch (bfd5cd)

  32. I wish someone would write a story about the police officers who appeared behind Obama as his wallpaper. Did they volunteer for the duty, were they ordered to sit there or are these really actors dressed as cops? I doubt that any self respecting Dallas officer would be an Obama prop of his or her own free will, so I will assume that they were forced or hired.

    Gary Hoffman (1943bf)

  33. You know, I don’t mean to fisk this speech paragraph by paragraph, but if I were to do so, here would be a sampling:

    I see how easily we slip back into our old notions, because they’re comfortable, we’re used to them. I’ve seen how inadequate words can be in bringing about lasting change. I’ve seen how inadequate my own words have been.

    Truer word have seldom been spoken. One of President Obama’s rare moments of self-awareness.

    As a society, we choose to under-invest in decent schools. We allow poverty to fester so that entire neighborhoods offer no prospect for gainful employment. We refuse to fund drug treatment and mental health programs.

    Has the President considered the idea that we “under-invest” in the schools because we have seen in cities like Washington, DC that spending more has no practical benefit? Or is he chiding urban residents, largely minority and overwhelmingly Democrat, aren’t willing to raise their own taxes to pour money into the schools? Nah, the “we” here is of course the federal government.

    And exactly what sort of gainful employment should be coming to these low-income, poverty-stricken communities? Wal-Mart wanted to build a large store out here in Inglewood, CA but the local officials — all Democrats who are in hock to organized labor — worked to block the move, even though it would have meant hundreds of jobs.

    Because with an open heart, we can learn to stand in each other’s shoes and look at the world through each other’s eyes. So that maybe the police officer sees his own son in that teenager with a hoodie, who’s kind of goofing off but not dangerous.

    And the teenager — maybe the teenager will see in the police officer the same words, and values and authority of his parents.

    Oh, please. This pretends that it largely middle-class black kids from stable two-parent homes who have the majority of run-ins with the police. I would bet the farm that this is even close to the truth. The very heart of the problem for that teenage in the hoodie is likely that there is limited parental authority in the home.

    With an open heart, we can abandon the overheated rhetoric and the oversimplification that reduces whole categories of our fellow Americans, not just opponents, but to enemies.

    But we can still ascribe straw man arguments to them and then totally burn those arguments down, right? And we can engage in mindless hyperbole like — oh, I don’t know — claiming that it’s easier to get a gun in the hood than it is to get a book.

    And as we get older, we learn we don’t always have control of things, not even a president does.

    Believe me, Mr. President: a whole lot of us have long since figured out that you, sir, have no control over things.

    America does not ask us to be perfect, precisely because of our individual imperfections, our founders gave us institutions to guard against tyranny and ensure no one is above the law.

    Except, of course, for your party’s Presidential nominee and your own former Secretary of State.

    JVW (eabb2a)

  34. it’s a good first step, of coutse after the 40th paragraph, you would be like ted stryker’s seatmates in airplane, seeking harikiri or immolation,

    narciso (732bc0)

  35. 36. His fisking is already longer than the leaflet on famous Jewish sports legends.

    Jack Klompus (05651b)

  36. We allow poverty to fester…

    Someone ought to ask Barack why he allows poverty to fester. He’s had 7 1/2 yrs to stop poverty from festering. Maybe a law should be passed which would outlaw poverty from festering. If Congress won’t pass such a law, maybe he can just do one of those Executive Order things.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  37. Hey Mr. President, a challenge: Give us your prescription for how to cure society’s ills, but you can’t once use the word “invest.” Ready? Go!

    JVW (eabb2a)

  38. He learns of a police shooting… thru the news, of course… and he salivates like Pavlov’s dog. Another chance to promote racial strife, disharmony, and fundamental transformation. The problem is, Obama has much of the country and all of the Democrat Operatives With Bylines – aka the Media – scarfing his bullsh*t somewhat like this demonstration… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTidhMZkUuY&ebc=ANyPxKoVFo8-vX3t1tV1wlfpRbKTs2ZVS997LzV-bIWy5Mz_MSxPpd-0KlgSWlbPjkgoxScawJqVtzqGv6PrA6-3FDC9_xEXWQ

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  39. I think it’s more like the Squirrel! move in Up, or the Abominable Snowman and his pet George,

    narciso (732bc0)

  40. Why do cops shoot unarmed men? Ask the two dead bailiffs in Michigan. And this was a guy already in custody.

    AZ Bob (d6a3a9)

  41. A very poignant and touching piece from our friend Jack Dunphy:
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/policemans-wife-14644.html

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  42. Hey Mr. President, a challenge: Give us your prescription for how to cure society’s ills, but you can’t once use the word “invest.” Ready? Go!
    JVW (eabb2a) — 7/12/2016 @ 7:27 pm

    Uh, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I,
    uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, uh……

    Yoda (feee21)

  43. very profound, md, dunphy who has chronicled the idiocy of his native los angeles, which is like so many other department, headed by hollow men, cigar store indians,

    narciso (732bc0)

  44. One thing’s for certain, we know that the President acted stupidly.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  45. One thing’s for certain, if #NeverTrump is going to hammer Obama on this, it’s probably not a particularly effective attack vector.

    Dystopia Max (76803a)

  46. Lester Holt reported the Treehouse version of the Castile shooting, where the stop was due to a BOLO, and there was no broken taillight.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  47. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/12/2016 @ 8:41 pm

    Thank you for the link, MD.

    Thank you, Jack, for the post.

    felipe (2457e9)

  48. why does this keep happening,

    https://twitter.com/ShidelerK/status/753043362316374017

    narciso (732bc0)

  49. a little satire to prove a point,

    https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/752969673835241473

    narciso (732bc0)

  50. Thanks, papertiger

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  51. JVW (eabb2a) — 7/12/2016 @ 7:00 pm

    Has the President considered the idea that we “under-invest” in the schools because we have seen in cities like Washington, DC that spending more has no practical benefit?

    Of course he has to know what’s wrong with that argument. It cannot have escaped him.

    But it’s part of teachers’ union dogma that more spending equals better results and does not to be proven. In fact, you could say it’s Democratic Party dogma in general that:

    Markets are inefficient, except when government is spending the money.

    And if something that government is doing isn’t working right, the remedy is spending more money, and it doesn’t matter too much how it is spent. Because, again, government spending is efficient, so the only possible cause for things going wrong could be too little money.

    This is something that has to be implied and not stated outright, because to state that outright is to assert a proposition that is self-evidently untrue that falls flat on its face when uttered.

    Or is he chiding urban residents, largely minority and overwhelmingly Democrat, aren’t willing to raise their own taxes to pour money into the schools? Nah, the “we” here is of course the federal government.

    Actually, I think he’s principally speaking about state, and sometimes county, governments. Political jurisdictions that include areas suburban areas outside the high crime and low income zones.

    And exactly what sort of gainful employment should be coming to these low-income, poverty-stricken communities?

    A “living wage” = jobs that pay at least $15 an hour, although before this year he was willing to settle for $10.10. Jobs that pay less are not worth anything, and Democratic politicians sometimes actually say that.

    Wal-Mart wanted to build a large store out here in Inglewood, CA but the local officials — all Democrats who are in hock to organized labor — worked to block the move, even though it would have meant hundreds of jobs.

    But they wouldn’t have paid $15 an hour, now would they?

    Now $0 an hour is a fine wage sometimes, and even better is when the employee pays the employer (otherwise known as job training or education)

    But anything between $0 and $15 an hour with overtime at time and a half? Should be outlawed.

    Sammy Finkelman (372aad)

  52. under-invest in decent schools

    That means, like in CA, money to shore up the nearly bankrupt teachers’ pension system. And if he cares about good schools, why did he revoke the charter schools in DC?

    It’s just boilerplate! Can’t he at least use artful language instead of the same old tired cliche?

    Patricia (5fc097)

  53. the no child left behind templates, that they sold to neil, don’t work, the allowance for cell phones, and no effective discipline protocols, means the students will be learning next to nothing. but feel proud for it,

    narciso (732bc0)

  54. And if he cares about good schools, why did he revoke the charter schools in DC?

    Supposedly, charter schools aren’t any better than regular schools, and take money away from real public schools, and if a charter school looks good, that’s only because they can expel or not admit students, especially special education students. So sayeth the teachers’ union.

    Sammy Finkelman (372aad)

  55. Theer are places to find the truth, or something closer to the truth, in well known publications, but you may have to look for it. I gave a link at #14:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

    Heather MacDonald, of the Manhattan Institute, has also written a great deal about the false narrative published in various places the past few days.

    Here is the latest:

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/time-to-end-the-demonizing-of-police-1468363042 (behind a paywall, but a Google search for words contained here may retrieve this the first time)

    Make no mistake: Assertions about systemic, deadly police racism are false. That has been true throughout the period following the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., in 2014; recall that the cop involved was ultimately exonerated by the Justice Department. But no number of studies debunking this fiction has penetrated the conventional story line.

    A “deadly force” lab study at Washington State University by researcher Lois James found that participants were biased in favor of black suspects, over white or Hispanic ones, in simulated threat scenarios. The research, published in 2014 in the Journal of Experimental Criminology, confirmed what Ms. James had found previously in studying active police officers, military personnel and the general public.

    In 2015 a Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. And this month “An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force” by Harvard economics professor Roland G. Fryer Jr., analyzing more than 1,000 officer-involved shootings across the country, reports that there is zero evidence of racial bias in police shootings.

    She is just out with a book called “The War on Cops,” which is described as being (in part at lesst) about why black communities suffer most without proactive policing.

    Sammy Finkelman (372aad)

  56. Charter schools in PA to my knowledge have to accept anyone, because they are a public school, they are under management different from the local school boards.

    As most things, there are many factors involved, often coming down to how good and how virtuous the leadership of the individual school.

    O thought what Obama did was actually end a voucher program that allowed, for example, kids to go to the same school as his daughters, and at actually less than the calculated cost per student for DC public schools,

    Iow, yes, exactly to the original comment

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  57. He simply doesn’t know how to do otherwise. He is so narcissistic and so ideological that he simply cannot help himself. He thinks he is being pithy and presidential and, in fact, in every instance in which there have been police/civilian conflicts, he has poured fuel on the fire.

    Jimpithecus (2c9c93)

  58. In fairness to Obama, he was walking a very fine line at the memorial service. He couldn’t express too much sympathy toward the dead officers, lest The Left accuse him of being on the wrong side.

    Deuce Frehley (73c323)

  59. It’s not that Obama couldn’t express too much sympathy to the dead officers – in fact he did edppress a lot of sypathy – what he couldn’t do was contradict, or express skepticism, toward the many anti-police claims of “Black Lives Matter” and similar people.

    Instead, he told other people to take their claims seriously.

    Instead of telling people, what he has never told people, what he is in the best position of all to tell people, that some of the claims being made, especially about Michael Brown, and the truth is also Trayvon Martin, are flat out wrong and lies.

    Sammy Finkelman (372aad)


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