“Jew! Jew!” Update on Lara Logan (Update: Nir Rosen Resigns! And More Details on the Attack.)
[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]
Update: See below for a big update. There are reports of a possible anti-Semitic motivation.
Update: The WSJ says that it was “not a rape.” Which is only moderately helpful because we are not sure what they mean by rape. There are several things you can do to a woman that would be legally considered rape, but only sometimes called rape in common discussion. But it’s an encouraging sign that things were not as bad as we feared.
As noted last night, CBS News correspondent Lara Logan had been sexually assaulted last week in a brutal and sustained attack while covering the Egyptian protests. CBS still has refused to provide more details, and I call on them to tell the entire story. Privacy be damned, this happened on a public street in the middle of an event of global significance and will offer us insight into an important protest movement. I have been cautiously optimistic about the Egyptian protests and I am hoping for the best outcome in all of this, or at least a less bad one than Mubarak’s rule, but we deserve the unvarnished truth about it.
At the same time, I agree that we should not use this as an occasion to say that women should not be journalists in dangerous parts of the world. Obviously sexist attitudes are rampant in many parts of the world, including many fundamentalist Muslims who believe that any woman who wears anything less than a burqa is presenting the irresistible temptation of “uncovered meat” and therefore deserves it if she is raped—an attitude that might have played a role, here. And thus a woman faces a unique danger that a man does not. But that is not a justification for refusing to let a woman go into those parts of the world. If a woman, fully cognizant of the danger, wants to take that risk, we shouldn’t stop her.
And as for whether this reflects poorly on the protest movement as a whole, that is unclear. First, it is not the case that no one helped her. As CBS said in the its official statement: “She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers.” (emphasis added). And because of the vagueness of CBS’ statement, we do not know how well others would have been able to see what was happening to her. And I refuse to believe that we can judge a large and probably heterogeneous movement by the actions of a few Neanderthals. For instance, if you are a good Egyptian who wants freedom and democracy, how exactly are you going to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from glomming onto your movement? Still, if there are any leaders in this group—and there might not be—someone needs to stand up and denounce this conduct, as proof of good faith. But for now, I think it is leaping to conclusions to say this tars the entire movement.
Now if only the American left would be so tolerant of the Tea Party…
Anyway, the good news we learn this morning, via Howard Kurtz, is that Ms. Logan is recovering quickly and is expected to leave the hospital today:
Sources familiar with the situation say Logan has recovered to the point that she was expected to be released from the hospital Wednesday and reunited with her two young children. She is described as being in remarkably good spirits despite her ordeal.
Which on one hand is good news, but it also suggests something of the severity of the attack. The term “a brutal and sustained sexual assault” can mean several things, but a 4-5 day recovery (depending on when she got back) suggests that the term “brutal” is the operative word. You have to wonder how she was put on that plane to America—did she walk or get wheeled in on a wheelchair or gurney?
Again, CBS owes us the entire truth on this subject.
Update: Yesterday’s jerk of the day, Nir Rosen, resigned from the NYU’s Center on Law and Security for having said numerous tasteless things about the Logan assault. Good for them to have gotten rid of this garbage. The Campaign Spot has full details.
H/t: Scott Jacobs.
Further update: Thanks to Tina Trent in the comments who (with a little help from Google) adds some context to this:
Egyptian women say they are frequently yelled at and touched by groups of men in the streets, but that during the anti-government protests, such behavior was less prevalent. “Men and women … everyone was coming together, and I personally didn’t experience any sexual harassment, which was extremely unusual,” said Yasmine Khalifa, 25, a Cairo teacher.
The mood shifted Friday night, Khalifa said, when thousands of men who had not been part of the protests entered Tahrir Square. Several women reported being harassed, she said.
(Source.) So on one hand, it wasn’t an isolated incident. But at least according to Ms. Khalifa, it was only a newly introduced element. Which sounds plausible enough. Still, CBS News should release all the facts and then let us sort it out on how much it reflects on the movement as a whole.
And I will add that the first line about being yelled at and touched by men in streets lines up with some anecdotal stories friends have told me, about visiting nearby countries.
Big Update: The New York Post has even more details:
A network source told The Post that her attackers were screaming, “Jew! Jew!” during the assault. And the day before, Logan had told Esquire.com that Egyptian soldiers hassling her and her crew had accused them of “being Israeli spies.” Logan is not Jewish.
In Friday’s attack, she was separated from her colleagues and attacked for between 20 to 30 minutes, The Wall Street Journal said.
Her injuries were described to The Post as “serious.”
CBS went public with the incident only after it became clear that other media outlets were on to it, sources said.
Again, CBS News needs to release the whole story. Tell us everything and let us evaluate what it means. And it is disturbing to me that they thought it was appropriate to hold the story back as long as they did.
Update: Previously, we saw where Egyptian authorities suggested that Mossad caused various shark attacks in Egypt. Its funny, but I had a serious point at the time and I repeat it here:
All of which is silly, but leads me to a serious point. Some liberals are fond of claiming that terrorism is born out of oppression, that they are just striking back against those who have wronged them. But one major flaw in that theory is that a lot of people in that part of the world are so paranoid in their anti-Semitism, that they literally will believe their enemies can and will do anything. Everything is a Jewish conspiracy. The rats in their sewers. A few pigeons crapping on their car. So naturally other things, like the complete state of crap these economies find themselves in is naturally the Jooos’ fault, right? Them and the Americans, naturally. My point is that stories like this demonstrate that their ability to even perceive actual injustice and assign correct blame is seriously compromised by their paranoid hatred of Jews, yet another reason why their violence is a terrible gauge of the justice of their cause.
[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]
Don’t expect anything like the truth when it comes to the Gunga Dan of network news – if they came out with the actual events of that day, it may reflect poorly on their overarching meme (i.e. US baaaad, Muslim gooood!).
Dmac (c50897) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:30 amBTW, that last sentence is supposed to be read in Phil Hartman’s Frankenstein voice.
Dmac (c50897) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:31 amdmac
ah, the late, great phil hartman. noted.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:36 amI still can’t get over that “reporter” who tried to “joke” about this. The only good thing is how he was repeatedly forced to back away. Personally, I think that fellow should be shunned.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:49 amThis story has larger issues with regard to the media’s handling of the Egyptian insurrection.
First, the media described the day as a “celebration” to wit CBS’s own statement:
“On Friday, Feb. 11, the day Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak stepped down, CBS chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan was covering the jubilation in Tahrir Square for a “60 Minutes” story when she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into frenzy.”
Note the passive voice as if the mob was whipped into a frenzy and not responsible for its actions.
The bigger picture is the media’s attempt to give Obama some glory for the change in Egypt despite his flip flops on Mubarak and his lack of any clear strategy besides saying he’s not Bush. It seems that the story of the beating and “sustained sexual assault” (a vague phrase by CBS)has been swept under the rug because it would raise questions about whether this is going to turn out well for the U.S.
Finally, was was pointed out by Aaron Worthing, this would be handled completely different by the media had something close to it occurred at a Tea Party rally. It’s like comparing the Major Hasan shooting to the Tucson one. A tale of two massacres. Only the the first one Obama and the media lectured us not to jump to conclusions and the latter, well, there was a lot of that going on.
Arizona Bob (e8af2b) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:54 amWell, here’s a little context:
“Egyptian women say they are frequently yelled at and touched by groups of men in the streets, but that during the anti-government protests, such behavior was less prevalent. ‘Men and women … everyone was coming together, and I personally didn’t experience any sexual harassment, which was extremely unusual,’ said Yasmine Khalifa, a 25-year-old Cairo teacher.”
So it’s extremely unusual to not be groped and threatened with gang rape on the streets. But, hey, no point in contemplating the political implications of that, when there are so many cute, exotic, revolutionary men making American women feel good about their imagined engagement in this political moment on Facebook.
Tina Trent (7f2406) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:07 amShe was repeatedly picked up by the police/military and told to stay off the streets. She did an attack column on the military who had REPEATEDLY told her to stay off the streets. She has operated, safely, with our military in war zones dominated by muslims and must be aware of their attitudes towards women (she is a “reporter” I believe). It was an awful thing that happened to her and I am glad that a bunch of Egyptian women and, once again, THE MILITARY, rescued her. But how many times does she need to have this happen before she learns something?
J (2946f2) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:15 amSo I, for one, am glad that CBS is sticking by its employee, and respecting her wishes. She’s the one, not CBS, who needs to be convinced to “tell the story”.
She’s an employee at CBS, and they’re the ones who ultimately decide what news is to be released on this incident, not her. You jackass.
But how many times does she need to have this happen before she learns something?
IOW, she definitely had it coming to her. Thank you for providing the Neanderthal perspective on this event, Lothar.
Dmac (c50897) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:30 amdmac
> Thank you for providing the Neanderthal perspective on this event, Lothar.
lol we are having a full SNL flashback, here. btw, about two weeks ago dana carvey was the guest host. they did waynes world (with mike myers!), and the church lady lusting for justin beiber. it was their best in a long, long time.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:40 amtina, i would love a citation on what you quoted. i will try to find it via google, but i would appreciate it.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:41 amtina, scratch that. google found it for me. will update soon.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:44 amDoes CBS consider privacy issues when it trumpets the Wikileaks story?
Arizona Bob (e8af2b) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:47 amHere’s how I think the Rosen resignation went:
NYU: “So, Nir… Rough night last night, huh?”
Nir: “You have no idea…”
NYU: “Actually, I think that we do. Did you know that our voice-mail actually crashed, we got so many messages? And the phone still rings off the hook with people who are, shall we say, pretty unhappy with you.”
Nir: “That’s just The Right trying to silence me…”
NYU: “Yeah, about that… See, we had a little chat here at the office, and we’re not that happy either.”
Nir: “What are you saying?”
NYU: “What we’re saying is this – you know that resignation letter you’re going to hand us in 20 minutes? We accept. Now hurry up… You have some bulls**t about how you ‘don’t want to continue to cause any difficulty for the University’ to make up.”
Nir: “But…”
NYU: “And get the f**k out of my office.”
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:56 amWhat will be interesting to watch is where Sir Nir lands. Wanna bet his lefty buddies will take care of him ala Ward Churchill? This pos will have a long and valued tenure in academia or non-profit land. These guys don’t go away, just look at Bill Ayers and his wife and countless others.
BT (74cbec) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:00 amSorry, it’s UAS Today, which is frequently the most objective news source I find on all sorts of legal issues too, go figure…
Tina Trent (7f2406) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:07 amBT, my money is on Berkley.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:13 amRosen: another example of Twitter-induced reckless stupidity. I don’t doubt the guy is a giant dick, but I still contend Twitter, the medium itself, brings out the worst in people. Twitter must die.
gp (72be5d) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:22 amScum float to the top but only after you boil the water a bit.
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:23 amWhatever the attack was, it was brutal, for sure. I guess it’s up to her to tell us anything else. Remember, she was supportive of the A-stan war, as far as any MSM reporter can be.
What’s really galling is the way the media is trying to spin the revolution as Obama’s triumph. She got in the way of that with her nervy attempt to tell the truth! Teach her a lesson!
She did say they were government goons who did it. I can’t wait to see Obama throw her under the bus too.
Patricia (3aa1fd) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:38 amPatricia
I highly doubt her assault had anything to do with her stances, the frenzy of the crowd, the Obama administration or George Bush
I would not be surprized if it was ordered though
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:53 amObama’s standards are to request a ‘second chance’ for some star athlete who killed and tortured countless animals. Had the Palins run an outfit like the Vick puppy pound, the media would’ve gone nuts.
Lara Logan doesn’t fit the narrative and will pretty much be treated accordingly.
Vermont Neighbor (6d8a47) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:57 amnotice the big update. they were shouting “Jew!” before they attacked her.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:04 amEric,
Patricia (3aa1fd) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:06 amShe thought she was targeted by government goons. Maybe it was spontaneous, but that’s what she thinks.
PAtricia
I strongly doubt it was government goons they would have been killed by the crowd – – I’m thinking its the group that targeted the moderate Muslim brotherhood leadership a while back (oh they’re gone now for sure) and set off bombs in qatar and Saudi in the last 5 years or so
They seek high profile attacks with no risk to themselves and dont take credit for it
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:09 amThe Joooooooooos control the sharks.
JD (10e5a9) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:26 amI’m hearing she has vowed to return to work, which I think ties in with:
This is the opposite of my belief. Had it been my call, I’d have been the paranoid (since we’d never know what was prevented) sexist pig who insisted on avoiding this situation.
However, Lara Logan isn’t an idiot. Even conservatives who hate her network’s bias acknowledge she is good at her job. I realize Lara is a successfully person who was absolutely aware of this problem in Egypt, and decided to accept the risks, and even now, is prepared to dust herself off and accept the risks.
Obviously, she loves what she is doing, sees the value of it as justifying personal harm, and is an inspiring American for all of us to be proud of.
I guess there is a shred of hope this will lead to a better Egypt, as it exposes this sexism problem for the world. I’m not optimistic about it, but I’m glad Lara is a free woman in a society where she can completely ignore my views on this matter.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:28 amBTW, I know this is just another form of sexism, but it’s long past time America had a woman president. I’m glad we have a woman as SecState who isn’t an embarrassment like Albright was.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:34 amWhat do you expect, they are Arabs.
I told my daughter that it would be a mark of very low self-esteem if she were to date an arab, considering how much they hate women.
Californio (bdf070) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:34 amHer crew screwed up.
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:39 amdustin
well, your views aren’t necessarily sexist. you aren’t saying she is less capable. you are just saying that these men with their sexism (apparently mixed with anti-semitism), present a unique danger to her. that’s not sexism, that is recognition of reality.
that being said, i tend to be more “libertarian” in the sense that with few exceptions, i favor letting people make their own decisions and limit myself to making sure they are informed decisions.
but i could be wrong.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:47 amWell, the lack of vocal & sustained outrage from the Left ties in nicely with their support for the Playboy “Conservative Women Hate-F*ck” list..
ShyAsrai (921609) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:59 amHer crew screwed up.
More specifically, Her security screwed up. How do you let your charge get out of your site without you suffering debilitating injury? Those guys should lose their jobs.
Eyago (5f452c) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:07 amAaron, I guess the best way to phrase it is that you respect a woman’s right to do something that defies reality, even to an extreme point.
Unlike apparently a large number of Egyptian men, you see Ms. Logan as a free sovereign person you have no right to control, even when control is eminently practical for her own good.
I’ll tell you what Egypt needs. Conceal handguns in the burqa or miniskirt of every woman there.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:09 amDoes any one know wether or not her security detail (if she had one) was western or local? Or was she just depending on the network crew?
Have Blue (854a6e) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:12 amRemember that in Pakistan the assasination of an official for not being radical enough (not condemning a Christian woman for a bogus blasphemy charge) was carried out by one of his own bodyguards.
dustin
i think it is fair that i am pretty hardcore in that approach.
And yeah, she should have had a gun. Or maybe one of these: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/06/20/2010-06-20_new_female_condom_with_teethlike_hooks_debuts_at_world_cup.html
its sad that the item in that link is thought to be the only solution in some parts of the world.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:12 amEyago
Private security is not security – they are not going to die or be injured for someone who isnt a comrde or family – anywhere – as we have painfully found out in africa and russia
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:13 amAt the same time, I agree that we should not use this as an occasion to say that women should not be journalists in dangerous parts of the world. Obviously sexist attitudes are rampant in many parts of the world, including many fundamentalist Muslims who believe that any woman who wears anything less than a burqa is presenting the irresistible temptation of “uncovered meat” and therefore deserves it if she is raped—an attitude that might have played a role, here. And thus a woman faces a unique danger that a man does not. But that is not a justification for refusing to let a woman go into those parts of the world. If a woman, fully cognizant of the danger, wants to take that risk, we shouldn’t stop her.
I think I saw “ace” forward the same idea on a thread that Instapundit linked to. He made the analogy of her being brave and a soldier being brave and something about they both don’t deserve it.
So let’s use that analogy. If a soldier is brave and dies that’s one thing but America still owes that guy the best tools, equipment and protection to do his job.
If the US sends soldiers in to battle and they don’t have the proper equipment we should be able to hold them accountable.
Now here’s the thing-CBS owed Lara Logan a reasonable amount of protection to do her job.
Do we know they did that?
She got peeled away from the crew and no one else did.
There had been plenty of warning-the Anderson Cooper situation-that the environment was very volatile.
Liberals and unions force businesses to protect their employees and to take the necessary precautions why should CBS be any less responsible?
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:16 amlet me add, that when i say she should have had a gun, I’m not blaming her for… whatever happened to her. But we can and should learn from the bad experiences and mistakes of others. they should have had more security–they seemed to have enough to protect the equipment and little else. and she should have been armed. no guarantee that this wouldn’t happen anyway, but its better to have had some means of self-defense.
In other words, ladies, if you plan to go to a place like this, get a gun.
(and the condom with teeth reference was a gallows humor joke. I find it funny because it helps me to imagine horrific pain inflicted on her attackers.)
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:18 amEric
Machiavelli said something to the effect that you can’t expect mercenaries to die for you.
But still a few well-armed men can make these men think twice. i suspect that Logan’s attackers are cowards and really might not have tried it if there was a few security guys there, in uniforms, with m4s.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:21 ammadawaskan, I have to wonder if all the buzz about how wonderfully peaceful these protests were led to some miscalculations with her security.
A bit of a state of denial, or a resistance to treating the protesters like savages, in a PC culture of pushing a narrative that this entire process beats the Operation Iraqi Freedom. I think that’s a core element of the press’s narrative. That want to suggest that Obama used magical diplomatic kung fu while Bush used clumsy warfare, and Egypt was thus easier with a better result.
that’s ridiculous, but I think there’s a powerful interest in white washing these people into people who care about freedom, rather than people who enslave half their own.
I probably should resist these assumptions, but there has been a stubborn ignorance about these protests all along.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:25 amDustin-I was reading your comments up thread, about the unique combination of elements…
Let’s admit women don’t have the same physicality as men., and that possibly in that environment they are more vulnerable for a multitude of reasons.
Now under the circumstances CBS -to allow women to do their jobs-should they give women more protection?
I probably should resist these assumptions, but there has been a stubborn ignorance about these protests all along.
Well they funny thing is and I think it was mentioned in the thread at Ace of Spades-when it came to Bush in Iraq or Afghanistan it was CBS and/or Liberals who were always pushing the *real politik* meme.
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:34 amIn other words, ladies, if you plan to go to a place like this, get a gun.
Hell I’ll be in Chi-town next week!
[that’s a joke..]
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:37 amThe crime reminds me of the Puerto Rican Day parade sexual attacks in Central Park: celebrating “liberation” through gang rape. Look at what has happened to women in South Africa, Australia, parts of the USSR — and America during and after the Sixties.
I ran into an old college classmate at a reunion this weekend and he was bragging about cleaning up human rights abuses from within the Pentagon while he sneeringly mocked Glen Beck’s argument that the Egyptian uprising might lead to communism, socialism, and/or takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood (of course, he left out the “might” part of Beck’s message). This guy, with, I presume, State Department or DOJ ties, ridiculed the notion that any sane observer might be worried about the potential for fundamentalist ascendence: if they expressed such concerns, surely they were inbred, Beck-watching imbeciles.
He went on to minimize the prevalence of sharia adherents in the population and vehemently deny any correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and the 90%+ FGM rate in the country. He was very, very shrill in his insistence that because FGM exists elsewhere, any correlation was false and prejudiced, such prejudice apparently being a far more objectionable human rights violation than, say . . . a 90%+ FGM rate.
Interesting definition of being a human rights activist — deny mutilation, deny torture, deny and minimize systematic oppression, so long as they’re done to women and by the right type of men.
Tina Trent (7f2406) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:39 amWhen I was 18 years old I went a fraternity party on campus. I was raped, it went on for hours, no one helped me and no one went to jail. I did not go to the police because the young white middle class men responsible let me know that I would regret it. I just wanted to forget. But you never do.
So, I know what it is like to be sexually assaulted, and believe it or not it is not any easier to deal with when the people responsible are not Muslims. Rape happens ever day all over the world.
So, no I don’t think it is fair to blame all Egyptians for this or to assume that all protesters are barbarians. I just think there were angry young men in a mob that vented their hatred on a vulnerable woman.
And Nir Rosen should have resigned. Debbie Schlussel should just shut up. I saw this and thought it was interesting:
Terrye (368a41) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:52 am#
Her crew screwed up.
Comment by SPQR — 2/16/2011 @ 9:39 am
I kind of thought the same thing. We were they?
Terrye (368a41) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:54 am#
Patricia
I highly doubt her assault had anything to do with her stances, the frenzy of the crowd, the Obama administration or George Bush
I would not be surprized if it was ordered though
Comment by EricPWJohnson — 2/16/2011 @ 8:53 am
And it is hard to know who would have done the ordering. Mubarak’s regime was accused of using rape to intimidate dissidents along with beatings and imprisonment. It was a deliberate method employed to keep people quiet.
I think this attack might well have been spontaneous attack from a mob, but then again considering the other attacks on journalists it might have been ordered. We may never know the truth.
Terrye (368a41) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:58 amTina
Sounds like he has a case of “Noble Savage Syndrome”.
Terrye
What the hell is wrong with Debbie Sch-how -ever-the-hell-you-spell-it?
I hate to keep harping on the same thing-but if a woman doing her job for the US military got left behind by the marines-CBS wouldn’t accept “the we’re not talking about it anymore” line.
Even if this happened to a police woman on duty-or any other female just doing her job.
Why does CBS get a magic pass?
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:03 amMadawaskan — good points, all.
I have no idea what’s wrong with Schlussel or that jerk Rosen.
But, sadly, I do know that I’ve seen a whole lot more excuse-making for rapists of all stripes among leftists.
Tina Trent (7f2406) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:10 amTerrye,
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:10 amThere are cultural issues with arab culture that makes this kind of action more likely.
I have no answer for this I’m not sure which way I think on it-I’m truly interested in the opinion around here.
If the US was in revolution and you went to the major city square-could the same thing happen?
++++++++
I read some place that Egyptian women map online the safe areas to walk through Cairo-and it took 20 women and the army to save her.
I’ll say this-those were some brave women to intervene. And they prove Terrye’s theory-Shclussel can’t tar all Egyptians with this.
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:29 amI’m sorry for your ordeal.
Terrye (b987b0) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:33 amF*ck – not sure how that happened. What I mean is,
“Terrye, I’m sorry for your ordeal.”
Leviticus (b987b0) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:34 amI think they would be shot in some parts of America pretty quickly. And sadly, I think there are a few spots where the mob mentality would control.
Terrye is certainly right that you can’t tar all Egyptians with this, especially since some women intervened. But I do think the fact this is even possible in a public forum undermines the idea these people are asking for anything like a good government.
The fact of the matter is that this society treats women like crap.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:34 amFraternities are the breeding pits of Man-Children, and worse.
Leviticus (b987b0) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:34 amterrye
well needless to say i am sorry for what you went through.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:37 amIt may be that her security team (presuming there was one, of course) was taken out of action by the goblins, and that bit of news just hasn’t been reported yet. Or they joined the goblins. Or … we don’t know. Probably never will know most of it.
I wish her a quick and complete recovery from an attack that shouldn’t have happened, and while it’s too late to be quick, I hope you’ve recovered well, too, Terrye, and if not, I urge you to seek PTSD treatment.
htom (412a17) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:43 am#
terrye
well needless to say i am sorry for what you went through.
Comment by Aaron Worthing — 2/16/2011 @ 11:37 am
Thank you for that. The point I was trying to make was that these kinds of attacks on women are not that unusual. Of course Islamic culture has a dismal history in terms of the treatment of women, but rape is something all cultures seem to share.
In fact in the late 90s tens of thousands of Muslim women were raped in Bosnia by the Serbs and those rapes were deliberate, they were intended to shame the families.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:54 amI wish her a quick and complete recovery from an attack that shouldn’t have happened, and while it’s too late to be quick, I hope you’ve recovered well, too, Terrye, and if not, I urge you to seek PTSD treatment.
Comment by htom — 2/16/2011 @ 11:43 am
It happened so many years ago that is as if it happened to someone else, a young Terrye instead of the old broad I have become. But it does leave a mark.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:56 amSo Rosen is affiliated with the NYU law school? Is he a professor? of islamic law???
RedRepub (3469fc) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:56 amTerrye is certainly right that you can’t tar all Egyptians with this, especially since some women intervened. But I do think the fact this is even possible in a public forum undermines the idea these people are asking for anything like a good government.
The fact of the matter is that this society treats women like crap.
Comment by Dustin — 2/16/2011 @ 11:34 am
This was what? A couple of hundred people in a crowd of hundreds of thousands? I am not sure that it is fair to say that these people are not asking for good government, if you mean most Egyptians. I can remember watching the LA riots on TV not all that long ago and seeing some man drug out of a semi and beat almost to death by a bunch of crazy people…and it was a local man who saved his life.
Anger+testerone+a mob can be a deadly combination. Anywhere…and as far as that is concerned, we don’t know who these people were. Mubarak has been known to employ rape against dissidents and Greg Palkot said the men who attacked him were almost certainly from the regime..so we don’t really even know who did this or why.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:01 pmWhy does CBS get a magic pass?
Comment by madawaskan — 2/16/2011 @ 11:03 am
They need to show some common sense. Not be such a target. I have seen pictures of Americans in Afghanistan who grow beards and everything just to blend in, it is the sensible thing to do when in a foreign country and a dangerous situation.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:03 pmI don’t mean that the poor girl should have grown a beard, but maybe a little less conspicuous clothing and some more people around her would have helped.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:05 pmMost egyptians were not at this protest.
It is fair to say that the people at this rally do not want a free country. There is a serious problem with freedom for a large portion of their people, and they don’t care. It’s even possible to gang rape a woman in their midst without being stopped by most of the men there.
Women aren’t even really people, to them.
This would be absolutely impossible at a Tea Party or an antiwar protest in the USA. The men who did this knew the protest better than you or me, and they proceeded with confidence. Sadly, they had good reason to be confident.
This is a country where a girl has a better chance of suffering mutilation than she has of learning to read.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:09 pm#
Terrye,
There are cultural issues with arab culture that makes this kind of action more likely.
Comment by SPQR — 2/16/2011 @ 11:10 am
No doubt this is true. I saw an interview with a young Egyptian woman in the protest and she said she did not want the Muslim Brotherhood in charge and she was not out there because she did..she wanted to be free, she did not want any one telling her how to dress or what to do. I thought that was interesting.
So yes, there are cultural issues that make women more of a target, but that does not mean that women all over the world are not targets. Japanese culture had some issues as well, just ask the Korean comfort women. It is not like that so much now, but 60 years ago women were supposed to walk 2 steps behind a man.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:10 pmOf course, I can’t pretend all the people at the protest are anything. In fact, there was probably someone at the protest who recognizes that Egypt’s problem is oppression of women. Sadly, the people fighting to reform on this count just were kicked out of power.
I do think that’s part of what they were protesting, btw.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:12 pmMost egyptians were not at this protest.
It is fair to say that the people at this rally do not want a free country. There is a serious problem with freedom for a large portion of their people, and they don’t care. It’s even possible to gang rape a woman in their midst without being stopped by most of the men there.
Women aren’t even really people, to them.
This would be absolutely impossible at a Tea Party or an antiwar protest in the USA. The men who did this knew the protest better than you or me, and they proceeded with confidence. Sadly, they had good reason to be confident.
This is a country where a girl has a better chance of suffering mutilation than she has of learning to read.
Comment by Dustin — 2/16/2011 @ 12:09 pm
Dustin, there were women at this rally. Thousands of them and many of them were in western dress.
The Egyptians are not the Borg, they do not have a hive mind. You can not say that all of them do not want good government when you do not even know these people or much of anything about them.
No, most Egyptians were not there, but most Egyptians did not try to stop them either, did they. Most Egyptians live on less than $2 a day and have not lived in a country with freedom of speech or freedom of press or even free and fair elections either.
If Mubarak had not been such a thug and if he allowed some modest political reform and actually provided food and jobs for his population this might never have happened.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:14 pmAnd women have been gang raped right here in this country in bars and at music concerts and on city streets while people stood by and did nothing because they did not want to get involved. We have all heard these stories.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:15 pmThat’s true, terry.
And those people who stood by do not have any credibility with me on the topic of anything regarding justice or democracy or freedom.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:17 pmI don’t know how many times I have to note I’m not saying “all”. It sounds like you might want to learn more about Egypt. I think your hive mind description is a great summary of the masses there. they believe certain things about morality that are nonsense, evil, and dogmatic. There are always exceptions, but these women you cite at that rally largely accept that their daughters will be mutilated and illiterate.
And again, it’s possible to gang rape them outside in public at a massive rally, which is not quite comparable to a frat party or a some dark bar, IMO.
So?
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:21 pmThat’s true, terry.
And those people who stood by do not have any credibility with me on the topic of anything regarding justice or democracy or freedom.
Comment by Dustin — 2/16/2011 @ 12:17 pm
But the rest of us are not denied the right to a free and fair election because of them are we? We are not all responsible for what they did and did not do are we?
Well, do you honestly think that all those hundreds of thousands of people in all that chaos and noise over all those days even knew that this happened to this woman? Do you think they were all witnesses and did nothing? There were reporters at the time and no one seemed to know a thing about it until after the fact. So maybe most of those people did not even know what was happening at all, and in the end when it was stopped it was Egyptian at the protest with the help of the Egyptian military who stopped it.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:21 pmHow so?
Michael Ejercito (64388b) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:23 pmOf course not. I also think that it’s well known, and has been for years, that this kind of gang rape can be carried about in confidence when surrounded by Egyptian extremists. It isn’t rare. It’s predictable.
I suspect EVERYONE THERE was witness to some kind of sexual attack. In fact, it’s so bad that women are surprised when they aren’t groped. Which is a far cry from rape, I admit, but then again, this is a society that is broken.
I’m not sure why you say I’m saying they shouldn’t have a free and fair election when I’m lamenting the fact they obviously don’t want this.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:24 pmDustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:26 pm
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-11-18-female-genital-mutilation-practice-still-common-in-egypt
sorry, HTML failure, Michael.
Here’s just one example.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:27 pmI don’t know how many times I have to note I’m not saying “all”. It sounds like you might want to learn more about Egypt. I think your hive mind description is a great summary of the masses there. they believe certain things about morality that are nonsense, evil, and dogmatic. There are always exceptions, but these women you cite at that rally largely accept that their daughters will be mutilated and illiterate.
dustin, you said this after you said It is fair to say that the people at this rally do not want a free country. There is a serious problem with freedom for a large portion of their people, and they don’t care. It’s even possible to gang rape a woman in their midst without being stopped by most of the men there.
I think you are confused. I am saying that there were all kinds of people at this rally. There were businessmen and teachers and doctors as well poor people and unemployed people and shiftless people and who knows who else?
It is still not fair to assume that everyone in the streets is against good government. That is sort of thing the mullahs like to say about the people who come out in the streets against them.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:27 pmStanding by is probably never a good option. I’ve never been in the place where I had to choose between (a) standing up to face down a mob already attacking someone and (b) quietly taking my wife or daughter out of the mob’s possible conscription, and I’m not sure which I’d do. If I’m by myself, (a) is preferable, of course, and probable; but getting family safe and then coming back (having yelled for the cops, too!) is what I’d hope I’d do. If the stranger’s need was dire and I could hope the wife could get daughter away — in the time I’ve thought, wife is facing down the mob and telling me to take the daughter away! NOW what do I do?
htom (412a17) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:28 pmOf course not. I also think that it’s well known, and has been for years, that this kind of gang rape can be carried about in confidence when surrounded by Egyptian extremists. It isn’t rare. It’s predictable.
I suspect EVERYONE THERE was witness to some kind of sexual attack. In fact, it’s so bad that women are surprised when they aren’t groped. Which is a far cry from rape, I admit, but then again, this is a society that is broken.
I’m not sure why you say I’m saying they shouldn’t have a free and fair election when I’m lamenting the fact they obviously don’t want this.
Comment by Dustin — 2/16/2011 @ 12:24 pm
It is also very well known that the regime of Hosni Mubarak used rape to intimidate the population and threaten dissidents. It has been well known for years. It is one of the reasons he had a crappy human rights record and yet a lot of people seemed to think that the Egyptians were just supposed to overlook that.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:30 pmIt gets old having to repeatedly note that the way someone is characterizing my POV is a ridiculous and aggressive straw man.
I’m sorry Terrye has suffered a rape, but it doesn’t appear to be possible to have a good faith discussion with her.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:31 pmDustin:
Oh please. You just said that the people at that rally did not want good government and then you went on rant about how Egyptians rape people.
I just pointed that there are all sorts of people at that rally and it is not fair to say that they did not want good government. So do not talk to me about good faith. You contradicted yourself. Plain and simple.
Terrye (84455a) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:34 pmHeh. Not any more, he isn’t. 🙂
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:39 pmNo, terry. You translated what I said into something I specifically disclaimed, repeatedly, even after I tried to politely correct you. I don’t want to be impolite to you, but you’re not fair.
You are suggesting this is similar to something that happens all the time in the USA, and it’s not. Egypt is a lot different than the USA when it comes to how women are treated. You say something about teachers and businessmen and all kinds of people being there, and how that’s proof there is no hive mind, but indeed, there are strong indicators that Egypt suffers from a dogmatic view on what women are.
A society that enslaves half its people into a mutilated and illiterate existence isn’t democratic. This protest was not calling for women’s rights reforms. Even without the rape being a common occurrence in this society, the lack of this call proves they are not seriously interested in anything I recognize as a free and fair democracy.
I think I’ve been very clear on this, and also clear that there are many people who stand against Egyptian society, from within that society.
Anyway, when you quote me saying something, and then define as the opposite of what I say, several times in a row, that’s lying. I may agree with your politics 90% of the time, but I don’t find it possible to have a productive conversation with you.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:40 pmterrye
i think your notion that it happens all the time and its equally likely in any given culture doesn’t really make sense.
take your story for example. is anyone surprised to read it happened at a frat? would we suppose that it says something about that frat’s culture?
of course it is wrong to extrapolate from one wrongful act to a whole culture, no. but the question is, is it one act? cbs apparently wasn’t going to tell us until the AP came sniffing. are there any more we don’t know about? and what about women who are not pretty CBS reporters, who had cameras? how about just regular egyptian women?
that’s why the story has to come out. i respect the privacy of rape victims, but normally that privacy takes the form of people revealing what happened without giving us the victim’s name. this time, they are not telling us what happened, because we already know the name. and i am sorry to Ms. Logan, but that is wrong.
And while i am not quick to jump to negative conclusions about other cultures, at the same time, i do not pretend that all cultures are created equally. people are, but the cultures have positives and negatives that are not distributed evenly. islamic fundamentalist culture is backwards and positively justifies rape, by pretending that a man cannot be expected to control himself when tempted.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 2/16/2011 @ 12:43 pmI think news agencies have a responsibility to not deceive the public and to give enough information on things for the public to be informed. I think that can often be done without making someone’s hell worse than it has to be. I think there were ways that her attack could have been noted without some of the implied detail.
I am sure rape has been used in Egypt as elswhere as an especially cruel way of intimidating individuals and groups. It is this reality that gives rise to the idea that women should not be in combat and should be “out of harm’s way”, not just for their own sake, but because of the added factors when it comes to their male counterparts. One of the Brit princes was in the field in Iraq or Afghanistan “secretly”. When it became public he either voluntarily left or was ordered out of the unit (or likely a combo) as his presence brought additional attention and risk to the people around him. Likewise, I don’t think any additional burden of risk is the sole decision of an individual, but is a shared responsibility and decision.
Did this happen after Mubarek had decided to leave? You might have had people wanting to join in the “revelry and fun” who would have never risked being part of the protests. By itself, I’m not sure you could claim anything more than that people have the possibility of cruelty and some give in to it when others don’t, and a situation where a “mob mentality” and lack of individual accountability exists is a set-up for that cruelty to come out. If someone wants to make a news story about the typical treatment of women in Egypt, do that, but don’t amplify the situation of one woman to make her the unwitting poster child for a news story.
As far as her security detail, or lack thereof, it took 20 armed soldiers to rescue her in addition to a “large group of women”. How big and how heavily armed did she or her news agency want a security team to be? Having a platoon of soldiers makes it a little harder to simply “observe”. If you really want to protect somebody the first thing is to have control of the environment, if you can’t control the environment, you can’t insure security. You want your security to not attract attention but still be a deterrent, and they have to be able to do what they need to do in order to protect if it comes to that. I doubt anyone had in mind a 200 strong mob to defend against. Not excusing or blaming anyone or anything, just making comments.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/16/2011 @ 1:21 pmI will stick up for CBS (to a point) by saying that sexual assault stories are generally kept as anonymous as possible, to protect the identity of the victim. Since the victim in this case was a high profile news correspondent, it makes the situation regarding disclosure difficult. On the one hand, it’s vital that we be made aware of how this brutal act reflects on the overall movement. On the other hand, it’s important to allow Ms. Logan the opportunity to release the information at a time and in a way that she feels comfortable with.
It may simply be that CBS nor any other news organization has anymore information to share. We’re talking about a country that’s just seen its leader deposed after weeks of protests; it’s not an orderly place to be. Add to that the sensitivity of a sexually motivated crime, and Ms. Logan’s physical condition after it occured that may have made it difficult for her to communicate, and I can see plenty of reason why details would be sketchy and thin on the ground.
Also, Ms. Logan was just sexually assaulted far away from home, and has only recently been reunited with her children. She may have requested some privacy in regards to releasing the details of the assault. If that’s the case, I cannot blame her for wanting to withhold such personal, painful information until she feels ready to face the firestorm of coverage.
Whatever the case, CBS should let us know if Ms. Logan has made such a request, or if there’s any other reason for their lack of responsiveness. Otherwise they just look like they’re dropping the ball.
MWR (32e6a8) — 2/16/2011 @ 1:34 pmMD
Well I think it was a portion of the 200-it wasn’t all 200? And there was plenty of warning that things were escalating.
When the press said that they were being told to leave they assumed that violence was going to be handed out by the army.
Well that shouldn’t have been their first clue.
The first clue was when the American embassy started chartering flights to get all Americans out.
The essential message from the American government when that was done is-that the American government had very little leverage.
Plus none of the other crew suffered injury.
She was beat up-she denies being gang raped-so I don’t know how that is getting to be the word.
___________________________________________
Sometimes I just wish the press would get the law of Heisenberg Principle of observation-in all reporting not just this case.
I think the technology exists to film less obtrusively.
Also here are some shots of the protests just what came up first.
I always thought the press over emphasized and/or focused on women when the wide camera shots of the protests showed fields of men.
Take a look at these shots- I thought it was disproportionately male. Especially when they were filming the protests live.
Egypt Protest Images
In video-if you looked at those maybe it would illustrate the point even more.
Gotta run so I can’t prove my own hypothesis about the video.
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 1:37 pmDon’t the jooooooooooooos have the sharks with lasers on their heads?
JD (6e25b4) — 2/16/2011 @ 1:57 pmTerrye — I find arguments of the “but it happens everywhere” stripe troubling. Yes, there are rare instances of gang rape with witnesses in the United States. However, we have a culture and a legal system that condemns these acts and punishes the offenders, if the system works right, while Islamic law blames the victim.
To put it briefly, do the math.
Laws have consequences. Culture has consequences.
And in the U.S., it is frequently outsiders — jurors or well-heeled defense activists and their academic lapdogs — who derail justice. Our system permits such people far too much latitude, but our system, and our culture, condemns such actions nonetheless.
The fact that sexual injustice occurs in all places should never be an excuse to excuse systems that endorse it, nor to deflect attention from these systems. Why is anyone looking at this horrifically misogynistic culture and making excuses instead of expressing outrage?
I think a great deal of the current pathetic mushiness, to say nothing of outright endorsement, of murderous misogyny among American elites arises from the legal culture Eric Holder seeded when he and his activist peers worked so carefully to exclude misogyny and rape of heterosexual women from official hate crime designation. Since the time, our own justice system has been hostage to a subjective hierarchy of outrage over “hate,” one that underhandedly excludes hatred of (heterosexual, biologically-born) women. Consequently, it has become more and more natural to view anything done to women as nothing much to march in the streets over.
Thanks, liberal activists.
And the so-called anti-rape movement in the U.S. has been utterly subsumed by the ridiculous politics of selective outrage.
Tina Trent (7f2406) — 2/16/2011 @ 2:38 pm______________________________________
I’m glad we have a woman as SecState who isn’t an embarrassment like Albright was. Comment by Dustin
You mean Hillary “Sniper-fire” Clinton? Even if you are damning her with faint praise, I don’t know if she deserves much more than a raised eyebrow and sigh. OTOH, her predecessor, Condoleezza Rice, I can get behind.
As for Lara Logan, I wonder if she’s one of the variety of clueless liberals of the Western World, similar to the guy quoted below. The type who, for some peculiar reason, believe that ultra-rightists in the Third World/Middle East, or anyone in general aligned against the industrialized/imperialist/racist First World — and the US in particular — deserve kid-glove treatment. If so, I can see Logan walking half naked into a crowd of Islamicists and proclaiming “I have nothing to be afraid of! As-Salamu Alaykum! xoxoxo.”
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 4:08 pm___________________________________
the ridiculous politics of selective outrage.
Look up the definition of that phrase and you’ll see a picture of Bill Clinton. Perhaps one where he’s groping and being groped. Beyond that, I won’t say anything about him and Juanita Broddrick.
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 4:13 pmhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/eveningnews/main1616153.shtml?tag=currentVideoInfo;videoMetaInfo
narciso (e694f9) — 2/16/2011 @ 4:31 pmIf you are ‘optomistic’ about what is happening in Egypt, you are a fool.
torabora (3a519c) — 2/16/2011 @ 4:39 pmWell, I can’t quarrel with this, but I do like her a lot more than many others we’ve had. I’d say she’s better than Powell, not Rice, though Rice wasn’t perfect. She’s much better than many we’ve had, and I like that she’s an assertive leader.
There’s a lot I don’t like about her, and of course, her honesty would be high on the list, but I do wish the democrats had kicked our asses with Hillary as their nominee, rather than kicking our asses with Obama.
I think Hillary is the best we could hope for out of Obama, and Obama’s best cabinet member aside from Gates. Both Gates and Clinton are political choices rather than Obama’s preference, and yet they are both a class above.
I also should add that I realize Hillary was a big part of the flip flopping on Egypt, but I think the buck stops at the Oval Office, and she’s doing the best she can with him.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 4:50 pmComment by madawaskan –
I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with me or simply making some comments in discussion. Thanks for the link with pictures.
By definition a large crowd wanting revolution and a change in government is unstable, unless I had a great big dog in the fight I would get out of the way. Probably safer being in a firefight in Afghanistan, at least you know who to trust and from what direction the bullets are coming from.
Yes, film from farther away and interview people coming and going at a “safe” distance from the perimeter.
When 9/11 happened I was watching live coverage, and it appeared that one of the Towers was coming down and people started to run and the video feed was lost. I always wondered if the video cut just because everyone was running or because the spread of debris engulfed the reporter.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:03 pmHillary was a student of Alinsky, she wanted to institute these exchanges then called alliances, there were no death panels, back then, but there
narciso (e694f9) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:15 pmwas a similar structures being suggested, they brought in Piven and Cloward for the Welfare reform
and motor voter signings, the press doted her, just
slightly less fawningly than they did Michelle.
Interesting how “Mark” doesn’t seem to actually know anything about Lara Logan’s views on Mideast culture or politics, but insists on imagining her walking topless in Tahrir Square, inviting sexual assault. Like Mike K, he’s happy to proceed on the assumption that she’s a feckless “liberal,” while their counterpart, Nir Rosen, glibly casts her as an attention-seeker and “warmonger.”
I’m not aware of any evidence that suggests Logan was doing anything other than her job as a reporter. Nor does there seem to be a reasonable basis for seeing her vicious assault as symptomatic of the Egyptian opposition movement as a whole.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:21 pmMD
Sorry my last comment was choppy-I had to run out the door-basically just tossing stuff out there for discussion.
CBS should explain how only one of them was put in the hospital. The one they should have known to protect the most.
It’s like they literally cut bait and ran. Lara Logan being the bait.
Lets just say this, if the military left behind one female translator or the equivalent CBS would be making all kinds of nasty insinuations and drawing even worse conclusions..
Now it’s possible it wasn’t their fault-one of those “stuff happens” situations, The thing is CBS is always looking for someone to blame when it comes to business or the US military, for once I’d like them be held to their own standards, Instead they get to completely stonewall; hiding behind demanding privacy for the victim.
I don’t think they should use the nature of part of the attack to stone wall.
Let’s just focus on the fact that she was beaten enough to be sent to the hospital-did CBS do enough to reasonably prevent that?
madawaskan (fd190b) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:36 pm@88 You mean Hillary “Sniper-fire” Clinton?
I prefer to think of her as “Overcharge”.
malclave (4f3ec1) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:40 pmI know. Note that I didn’t dispute Mark’s ‘damning with faint praise’ characterization.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 5:52 pmI don’t know that any of us yet have enough information to properly discuss or assess the Lara Logan situation or CBS’ reportage of it. That said, in the end I hope we will get some sense that they handled the story of the attack in the same way for their own employee as they would have if the victim of the brutal sexual assault in Cairo had instead been an American college exchange student, a female member of the U.S. Diplomatic corps, a female Western tourist, or a visiting authority on Egyptian antiquities who happened to be a woman.
elissa (9f878d) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:19 pmLucky for her that some courageous women came along to save her, as there obviously were no REAL ‘men’ in her entourage.
Icy Texan (a1f3e2) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:53 pmAaron, CBS — and by extension, Miss Logan — owe us NOTHING.
Icy Texan (a1f3e2) — 2/16/2011 @ 6:55 pm“The U.S. Department of State strongly urges U.S. citizens to avoid all demonstrations in Egypt, as even peaceful ones can quickly become violent and a foreigner could become a target of harassment or worse. U.S. citizens who are near demonstrations should remain in their residences or hotels until the demonstrations subside. Security forces may block off the area around the U.S. Embassy during demonstrations, and U.S. citizens should not attempt to come to the U.S. Embassy or the Tahrir Square area during that time. U.S. citizens are urged to remain alert to local security developments and to be vigilant regarding their personal security. U.S. citizens should carry identification and a cell phone that works in Egypt.”
That’s from the U.S. State Dept. Feb 6 travel advisory. Morons like Logan should probably be aware that that’s good advice for all westerners, including clueless South African news reporters working for CBS.
Got news for you, honey: Egyptians don’t like you. You’re just a kuffar whore to them, and they’ll turn on you in a heartbeat, if they think they can get away with it. Logan’s lucky that the mob didn’t know anything about her personal history, otherwise they might have exercised a little Muslim style frontier justice via the traditional stoning method. They take a pretty dim view of women who like to be photographed practically naked and who sleep around with other people’s husbands.
I have zero sympathy for people like Logan who insist on walking into a snake pit and then get bit, when they’ve been officially warned to stay out of the pit.
Of course, if you insist on wandering around an Islamo-hellhole like Egypt, doing something as pointless as taking movies of Muslim mobs, and you’re willing to suffer the consequences…that’s your business. Enjoy.
Dave Surls (7daf63) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:21 pmIcy has a point, they, and she, owe us nothing. But, as Elissa noted, it would be interesting to see if they cover one of their own the same way as they would cover someone else. We all know they will not.
JD (d4bbf1) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:27 pm#102 by Dave Surls sliming Logan is utterly reprehensible.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:30 pm___________________________________________
Like Mike K, he’s happy to proceed on the assumption that she’s a feckless “liberal,”
Surveys have indicated for years that a high percentage of people in the media are of the left. So if I had to bet a million bucks on the likely political biases of Logan, I’d place my wager on her probably being of the left.
There have been way too many instances through the years where I’ve noticed large numbers of liberals being ass backwards in the way they judge good people and bad people, good situations and bad situations. If Logan fits that profile, she probably would stammer and stutter if asked “Would you have felt more alienated from — and perhaps also both more intimidated by and resentful towards — demonstrators in the middle of a Tea Party rally in America or the demonstrators in the anti-Mubarak rally in Cairo a few days ago?”
IOW, odds are high that Logan’s perceptions are not necessarily all that different from those of, say, New York City’s mayor, Michael Bloomberg. I’m referring to someone who theorized last May that the attempted bombing of Times Square was the work of Tea Partiers, not Islamo-fascist fanatics.
Again: Left-leaning biases often make a person’s brain ass backwards.
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:34 pmReally I’ve read Aswaany, their prim and proper facade, is less than advertised. Then again, considering the comments involved, rationality
narciso (e694f9) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:36 pmdoesn’t seem paramount in these interchanges.
Feeling proud of yourself, Surls?
Icy Texan (a1f3e2) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:48 pmActually there were a whole coffee clatch of people like Gingrich, like Adelman, who through our committments under the bus, back in that time. Both Casey in Baghdad, and Abizaid in Doha, seem unwilling to even acknowledge the Anbar awakening at that time, much less what it would take to leverage it, As a general rule, she has shownmore consideration for the American serviceman and
narciso (e694f9) — 2/16/2011 @ 7:51 pmwoman then most
Must be nice being perfect. I’m the first to say I think it was a bad move for her to be there. But to get from that point to lacking sympathy for a woman put in the hospital for days due to someone else’s evil? I’m sorry you can get there.
And remember why she made the move of entering a den of monsters. She believes in taking risks in order to get information to the world. She’s a bona fide journalist. What journalists do, when they actually do it, is worthwhile.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:02 pm“Feeling proud of yourself, Surls?”
Nope, just don’t feel sorry for people who insist on playing on the freeway…and then get run over.
Dave Surls (7daf63) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:14 pmLara Logan is a journalist with guts, something she’s demonstrated numerous times. “Dave Surls” and “Mark,” on the other hand, are a pair of comedians.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:15 pmBTW, Mark, I don’t know how close Logan’s 2006 remarks are to anything Mayor Bloomberg has said, but they do have a certain resemblance to the following:
The author? William F. Buckley, writing in the National Review in February 2006 and no doubt getting things ass backwards because of all his left-wing biases.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:32 pm“She believes in taking risks in order to get information to the world.”
As if the world needs to see pictures of a bunch of Egyptians milling around Cairo.
What she was doing there is basically as useless as tits on a boar. It’s about on the same level as stopping to look at an accident on the freeway. Ain’t going to help anything. Ain’t going to change anything.
But, like I said, if she wants to risk getting the crap beat out of her, so that the world can see highly important pictures of a bunch of a bunch of Muslims wandering around, chanting, beating up nosy reporters, and whatnot…that’s her business. I ain’t going to try and stop her.
Ain’t going to feel sorry for her either.
Dave Surls (7daf63) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:40 pmBuckley was wrong too.
JD (d4bbf1) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:40 pmSurls the ‘comedian’ needs to hang onto his day job, as well as engaging in a new activity . . . sharpening & polishing his metaphors.
Icy Texan (a1f3e2) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:40 pmJD, you mean the part about 130,000 Americans not being enough?
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:45 pmNo, about us losing.
JD (d4bbf1) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:46 pmOf course, he spoke before the “Surge.” So did Logan.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:53 pmActually, Surls, I was speaking to the general enterprise of journalism, which is actually pretty important, even when we note just how screwed up that profession is these days.
Just this story alone has changed perceptions about what Egyptian democracy would really be like, and though some resent this fact, it also lends insight into the protesters to some extent.
That’s information I want.
You can question any particular journalist. I think this one’s better than most, but I’m not going to tell you she’s a good journalist. I’m saying that someone does have to get their hands dirty to learn what’s really going on in these protests. Too often media outlets have relied on BS and pretending to get their hands dirty (cough, CNN). That’s not worth much. But when a reporter gets to where a story is, it’s not always just window dressing or rubber necking.
That is an important thing that needs doing all the time, and Ms Logan is actually dusting herself off to go back to doing it. I think Americans should be proud of her. In my opinion, it was not smart for her to put herself in this particular situation, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be proud of her guts.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 8:55 pmSorry my last comment was choppy-I had to run out the door-basically just tossing stuff out there for discussion….Comment by madawaskan
No problem, understood.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:00 pm#113
As if the world needs to see pictures of a bunch of Egyptians milling around Cairo.
The consequences of all that “milling around” turned out to be big, really big. Kudos to the reporters who stuck it out and told the world the story.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:03 pm_____________________________________
Lara Logan is a journalist with guts
But her guts wouldn’t prevent her from being a fool when it comes to the political reality of Egypt or Third World societies in general. After all, Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire — more wealth than 99.5% of Americans — but that didn’t prevent him (or doesn’t prevent him) from being a fool. Namely, having a greater fear or suspicion of people into the philosophy of the Tea Party instead of people into the theology of Islamic jihad.
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:08 pmI just read the latest update…so whatever “a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating” is, it does not include rape. Well, very good for Ms. Logan. I guess what I would mean by “sustained sexual assault” and what they mean are two different things.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:09 pmMD, I’m confused too, and hope to learn more about this.
I don’t see what this has to do with Bloomberg, Mark. But no, being a gutsy journalist doesn’t mean someone isn’t acting foolishly. I don’t think Ms Logan fears the Tea Party more than Islamists. In fact, I think she had a good idea what she was dealing with the entire time. It’s something women would notice about Egypt within a couple of minutes.
Also, I think she was well above average on her Iraq reporting. But I’m not here to evaluate her as a journalist. I’m making a more general point.
I think she’s admirable in many ways, even though I wish she hadn’t entered that situation. I also think she’s worthy of great sympathy, though I admit I’m not clear on what happened yet.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:23 pmI’m confused by anyone that thinks they have read some sort of definitive proof that Logan was not raped.
Icy Texan (4325bb) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:35 pmMark,
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:49 pmNir Rosen thought Logan was a supporter of evil American imperialism, so maybe she wasn’t all that left-wing, after all.
Another of Nir Rosen’s wisdom-filled Twitterings:
“for an empire like the US 9/11 was but a pinprick, but we went to war with two countries, bombed a few others, killed thousands in revenge”
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 2/16/2011 @ 9:51 pmYeah, that’s what happens when you slam planes into our s**t. People should stop pissing us the f**k off if they don’t want us to come kill them.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:15 pm“…so maybe she wasn’t all that left-wing, after all.”
Maybe so, and maybe no. I don’t know.
But, I know this much, about ten days ago she was detained by the Egyptian authorities (who didn’t want a bunch of witless outsiders coming in and stirring up any more trouble than they already had…which is, of course, exactly what Ms Logan than proceded to do), and you couldn’t shut her up about what mean old meanies they were. Now, when she’s accosted by the mob (and, apparently rescued by the same Egyptian authorities she just got done dumping on) it’s mum’s the word, and she doesn’t want to talk about it.
You have to wonder about that old double standard and what motivates it, and you also have to wonder about the commitment to reporting ALL the news that these oh-so-admirable reporters have.
You know, it’s a funny thing, I don’t see too much admirable about her profession in general, or her in particular. As a matter of fact, she looks like kind of a scumbag to me…not to mention being a grade A idiot.
But, hey, you guys don’t agree, you think this old gal is the cat’s whiskers and on a noble crusade to bring you the truth you need to know…and that’s fine with me.
That’s why they make chocolate AND vanilla, I reckon.
Dave Surls (7daf63) — 2/16/2011 @ 10:53 pm____________________________________
Nir Rosen
The guy is the essence of an ultra-liberal of the Western World. One who leans so far left that he ends up meeting the peculiar ultra-rightists of the Middle East. What’s both pathetic and hilarious is I’m sure Rosen fancies himself as a humane, sophisticated, compassionate human.
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:10 pm___________________________________
I don’t see what this has to do with Bloomberg
I’m merely theorizing that Logan may be like Bloomberg, in that her biases would be framed by a lot of moral relativism. If so, she’d be a lousy judge of identifying the good and bad in people and situations, and, worse of all, she’d end up transposing the two. Such folks have a knack for sympathizing with humans who don’t deserve it, and, in turn, shrugging off or castigating those who do.
Mark (411533) — 2/16/2011 @ 11:23 pmDave
Are you okay with assault?
Does anyone ask for assault?
Do you think anyone in the crowd thought hey – I can assault someone?
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 12:55 amDave,
I dont know what you are so angry about, why all the emotion, if it was Molly Ivins or Hilter Grandaughter no – one – no one has the right to assault a woman – period end of story
No one can deserve that horrific attack based upon ideology? Rape assault stripping someone bare and beating them is an appropriate debating technic and an expression of political will?
I dont know what made you so angry – you need to take a walk back on this
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 1:07 amWho me?
I’m not angry.
Logan’s a dipstick, and I don’t feel like throwing a pity party for her…but, I’m not the least bit angry about it.
Dave Surls (7daf63) — 2/17/2011 @ 2:05 amDave,
Dont sacrifice your basic humanity over politics. Many of us are disgusted at the tone of the protests the loss of an Ally, the endangerment to Israel, but to blame the mother of an American for getting beaten for doing nothing more than asking questions of the protestors nd who may very well be a victim of a terrorist attack – please don’t go so fr down a road that its almost impossible to turn back
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 2:21 amEric,
vote for pedro (e7577d) — 2/17/2011 @ 3:06 amDo you believe everyone was there to “protest?” Do you also believe all the “protester” want some form of democracy for every Egyptian? What do you mean by “tone of the protests?”
Nir Rosen, Sandra Bernhard; all Democrats in good standing.
Peteo (8208c1) — 2/17/2011 @ 3:56 am“My point is that stories like this demonstrate that their ability to even perceive actual injustice and assign correct blame is seriously compromised by their paranoid hatred of Jews, yet another reason why their violence is a terrible gauge of the justice of their cause.”
It is also a serious reason to believe that they aren’t ready for self-governance.
Majority rule (which is probably what Arabs think democracy is) doesn’t just mean that minorities aren’t protected, it means individuals of the majority aren’t protected either.
Jack (f9fe53) — 2/17/2011 @ 5:00 amSurls probably thought that Jodie Foster was ‘asking for it’ in that movie, too.
Icy Texan (4325bb) — 2/17/2011 @ 5:00 amPedro,
It was obvious they were not asking for democracy, this was purely about overthrowing an aging leader – Egypt was never more free and more prosperous than under Murbarek – it is a poor country one of the poorest on earth but 75% have cable TV and/or cell phones whereas before Murbarek they were starving to death – after the British left you either joined the army, the civilian corp or starved just like in 1930’s russia, Mubarek changed all that took over and reintroduced foreign investment and capitalism into egypt – sure the rich and powerful got richer but a large middle class emerged and it will be interesting to see where they fall into place – in Iran they left the 2 million Jews and their 8 million Arab relatives alone because they are the commerce that runs the country and the middle class prospered under the Ayatolla because unitentionally – he dismantled the shahs taxing authority and destroyed the very appartus to collect monies (A few years ago Iran restarted collecting taxes and Iranian businessmen are all over Doha, Jeddah, Beruit, Dubai and Abu Dhabi looking to move and relocate their Business, in the Arab world taxes are worse than jews)
Additionally, Just like in Iraq the violence was more about acension to Saddam rather than a 1776 declaration of independence – there is nothing like the bill of rights in the Arab world including Israel – Israeli citizens if suspected of collaboration against the state can be held indefinetly without trial and quite frequently are – same for France, Germany, Italy, Spain.
Except for Britain and Canada among major countrys – there is no freedom to assemble, freedom to desent – in fact Britain lets foreign companies, dicators sue its press for libel and slander and awards arab despots millions of pounds in shaky settlements.
So people like me who live an work for decades in the west and the Arab world – we see it mor clearly than reporters with an Americanized agenda trying to fit it with a whole cloth
I see Bahrain just realized its mistake – I see qatar mobilizing now (with what? they have more equipment than people trained to man them)
ITs about one arab tribe wanting what the ruling arab tribe has
Caveman stuff, literally, the reason the Ottomans ruled all of Arabia for almost a thousand yers because the opposition more often than not fought each other for the right to fight the turks
they just pulled up their lawn chairs and watched – like me – there have been two coups in Qatar and Bahrain, Saudi and Qatar have fought over borders – UAE ordered 2,000 french tanks (insert joke here) Try and find any of these counties in a 50’s or 40’s Atlas
They didnt exist – and to a certain extent still dont today
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 5:13 amThere are a number of things going on, none of them very good, the decision to continue QE 2, and the consequences on the average basket of food staples,
narciso (e694f9) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:09 amthe influence of wikileaks, the decision to steal
the previous election outright, the on the ground efforts of Ayers, Pike and co, all created what
Beck calls the perfect storm. which started with the Trabelsi’ in Tunis, now Mubarak, the Khalifahs of Bahrain, Saleh, Quaddafi, may be the Sauds next.
#127, Well, my response to Nir, would have been …
“hey, if up to me, I would have incinerated 500 million Arabs in a hail of fission bombs then taken the oil for free to pay for the bombs.”
Torquemada (2a42d3) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:31 am#141, Be great to see the House of Saud hung by its testicles and gutted like fish.
Torquemada (2a42d3) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:32 amNot if the alternative is the likes of Uteibi, or Auahtani, then katy bar the door.
narciso (e694f9) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:38 amWhen has that actually happened? And don’t say Kitty Genovese.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:41 amGang rape is a crime almost entirely peculiar to Arab culture. There are few other cultures where it happens with any significant frequency. Until recent Moslem immigration to Europe and Australia it was almost unknown in those places; now it’s a regular feature on the crime blotter.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 2/17/2011 @ 6:47 amDave Surls, don’t make me prefer EPWJ’s comments to yours.
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/17/2011 @ 7:15 amSPQR
Funny my wife said the same thing…
I pleaded with him not to go there, I think he has some emotional stake in this – its not like him to be that far off
Thats my side of the street 🙂
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 7:25 amBut, I know this much, about ten days ago she was detained by the Egyptian authorities (who didn’t want a bunch of witless outsiders coming in and stirring up any more trouble than they already had
Where have I heard the phrase “outside agitators” before? Oh, wasn’t it the South, in response to the Civil Rights movement.
The Mubarak regime tried to keep the outside world from witnessing what was happening. They failed. Their detention of Logan was part of that failed effort. Possibly the gang assault on Logan was a delayed part of the same effort.
kishnevi (687e98) — 2/17/2011 @ 8:16 amDon’t quite know how to say this, but the aptly named Surls is beginning to look pale next to the guy who wants to “see the House of Saud hung by its testicles and gutted like fish” (#143). And he, apparently, was responding to #142, who writes that he “would have incinerated 500 million Arabs in a hail of fission bombs.”
I sometimes wonder if some of the people posting here have too many of the wrong kind of chromosome.
Angeleno (bc7c15) — 2/17/2011 @ 8:53 amModern Iran (i.e. in the past 1000 years or so) has probably never had more than a quarter of a million Jews. By 1979 they were down to 80K, most of whom fled Khomeini, and now they’re probably below 20K.
Milhouse (de2658) — 2/17/2011 @ 9:36 amI’m with Surls; not blaming the victim is a nice slogan, but what happened to contributory negligence? If someone visits a seedy part of town, flashes a roll of bills, and then walks down a dark alley, is anyone surprised at what happens next? This doesn’t diminish the responsibility of the perpetrators, but the victim is responsible too. Yes, one has every right to behave in as reckless a fashion as one likes with ones own safety, but if one does that one forfeits an automatic call on others’ sympathy.
Compare to those people who sail into storms or climb dangerous mountains, ignoring warnings that they’re ill-equipped and are courting disaster; when the warnings prove right how much sympathy do they deserve, from those who would not otherwise care for them?
Milhouse (de2658) — 2/17/2011 @ 9:42 amkishnevi’s next trick will be to think with both brains tied behind his back.
Icy Texan (4325bb) — 2/17/2011 @ 9:42 amNo, Milhouse. She forfeited a call on your sympathy. For others of us, it’s a given.
Icy Texan (4325bb) — 2/17/2011 @ 9:46 amYou must hate US Soldiers and US Government contractors, such as those Markos said he felt nothing over, when we saw their burnt corpses. They recklessly pursued a valuable calling into a dangerous field.
Me, on the other hand, would sympathize with her if she was a communist hobo specifically there to investigate gang rapists. Because it’s just basic humanity to sympathize with a woman who was sexually assaulted, or beaten.
I feel bad for the woman who returns to her abusive spouse, too, but these are extremes that relate poorly. The fact is that Logan is a successful journalist that has done her work in a hands on fashion. That is dangerous, but it’s not worthless. We cannot understand her risky choices unless we recognize that was a sacrifice meant to make the world more informed.
Thus, even though I think she miscalculated, I think it’s inhumane not to admire the selfless aspect, or not sympathize with this tragedy.
Some people try way too hard to overthink these matters, and I think they wind up the real fools.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/17/2011 @ 10:53 amThe human response, is to show sympathy, to the victim of such an act, then one might take issue with how poorly her employer protected her, followed
by a degree of justice against the perpetrators, around the bottom of the list, is any notion that she contributed to it.
One of the most revolting episodes in L & 0’s turn
narciso (e694f9) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:02 amto the dark side, and there have been many, is one instance, where they sought to retry a case like the Kitty Genovese affair, and the perpetrator was acquitted.
Are you insane? How do you get from here to there? Of course they assumed that risk when they took those jobs; what’s more important is that they did it for me, because I asked them to. I owe them gratitude and admiration just for taking the risk, whether they get hurt or not. But if they were doing it purely of their own choice, because they liked the thrill of danger, or because it was just a job to them, then I’d feel a lot less; and if neither I nor anyone else was getting any benefit from their taking stupid risks I’d feel no obligation to them at all.
Milhouse (de2658) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:23 amMy apologies. That was a rude way to apply your logic.
Anyhow, I see a similarity in a contractor in Iraq and a reporter in an Egyptian mob.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:28 amMilhouse
The Official Iranian census by the Shaw reportedly counted 1.2 million Jews in Tehran alone and 8 million Arabs of Jewish descent if I remember correctly
In just that city – The current regime admits to 200,000 to 400,000 in Tehran which means there are more
EricPWJohnson (be6834) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:38 amWhich “Shaw” was that, EPWJ? Robert Shaw? George Bernard Shaw? Are you really bringing this up again? Your numbers are just as valid as your Gov. Palin budget numbers; which is to say, not valid at all.
Icy Texan (4325bb) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:54 amFrom the wiki;
Prior to the Islamic Revolution in 1979, there were 80,000 Jews in Iran, concentrated in Tehran (60,000), Shiraz (8,000), Kermanshah (4,000), Isfahan (3,000), the cities of Khuzistan, as well as Kashan, Sanandaj, Tabriz, and Hamedan
narciso (e694f9) — 2/17/2011 @ 11:59 amIt’s true there are, and were, many Persian Jews.
I will add, I know Milhouse rejects the idea that just because a government troop or contractor entered a profession that is very risky, and one that some people do not respect (such as Markos), that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t feel sympathy for them when they encounter great hardships and injuries.
I think we all benefit a lot from journalism. The importance of that field is why it’s so frustrating to us when some hacks pretend to be journalists just to lie to us. Milhouse didn’t ask journalists to investigate what’s going on in Egypt, but millions of Americans did in fact want that to happen, and rely on what we can learn from that effort.
I think, if someone posits the idea Milhouse and Dave have, that Lara is not worthy of sympathy simply because she bravely did a very dangerous thing for the public good, that we can’t apply that consistently. We wind up finding someone who did something very similar, only in a way we value and do feel sympathy for.
And just because I feel sympathy for Lara doesn’t mean I don’t criticize the way she put herself in danger. I do.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 2/17/2011 @ 12:04 pmFine with me if you want to feel sorry for her. Doesn’t mean I have to, though.
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