Patterico's Pontifications

8/18/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:48 pm



[guest post by Dana]

[Out of necessity, this is being written on Tuesday. So feel free to bring up anything that happened later in the week.]

Let’s go!

First news item

Good!

A Republican-aligned group is making a new push to turn the tide of GOP opinion on US aid for Ukraine as Congress gears up for what could be a major spending fight when it returns from recess next month.

Republicans for Ukraine,” a project of the conservative non-profit Defending Democracy Together, is launching a $2 million campaign that will include an ad airing nationally on Fox News during next week’s Republican presidential primary debate in Milwaukee…The group behind the campaign, led by conservatives and so-called never-Trump Republicans Bill Kristol and Sarah Longwell, warns that former President Donald Trump’s “America First” policies have eroded what it says are traditional Republican values.

Why are Republicans against continuing aid to a sovereign and modern democratic state that was viciously invaded by a brutal leader determined to wipe Ukraine off the map? Why does the political party long known for supporting the spread of freedom and democracy throughout the world, now say “no” to a country which has been heroically fighting for its very existence for over a year? Consider:

Before Donald Trump, Republicans were not the type to abandon a fight for a strategic partner’s democracy, handing a potential victory to Russian President Vladimir Putin. We were the warriors of the Cold War who brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union.

With Trump, who has embraced Putin, some Republicans are learning to let go of America’s role as the bulwark of democracy and freedom. These Republicans are choosing, instead, the tragic isolationism of those who opposed joining the fight against Hitler. Back then, radio priest Charles Coughlin had a powerful voice among do-nothings. Today, they find comfort on Fox News.

Second news item

Mark Meadows, Trump’s former chief of staff, wants to be tried in federal court:

In a 14-page petition in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia, Meadows’ attorneys argued that he had the right to be tried in a different court because his alleged criminal activity “all occurred during his tenure and as part of his service as Chief of Staff.” Going further, his lawyers went on to insist, “Nothing Mr. Meadows is alleged in the indictment to have done is criminal per se: arranging Oval Office meetings, contacting state officials on the President’s behalf, visiting a state government building, and setting up a phone call for the President. One would expect a Chief of Staff to the President of the United States to do these sorts of things.”

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, given that Fani Willis said she plans to try all 19 defendants together.

Third news item

While it’s true that language is always in flux, I’m just going to say that I’m glad I’m old. It’s all gotten to be too much :

People may use neopronouns for the same reason someone else uses “she” and/or “they” — neopronouns may better align with one’s identity. Some people may use a common pronoun, like “she” or “they,” in addition to a neopronoun.

Neopronouns are ultimately a “reflection of (someone’s) personal identity,” according to the Human Rights Campaign, and thus the “number and types of neopronouns a person may use (are) limitless.”

Examples and how to use them:

xe/xyr (commonly pronounced zee/zeer)

I asked xyr to come to the movies. Xe said yes!

ze/zir or ze/hir (commonly pronounced zee/zeer or zee/heer)

The teacher graded zir paper today, and ze got an A!

Ze said hirself that I’m hir favorite neighbor.

fae/faer (commonly pronounced fay/fair)

Fae told me that faer best friend is in town this week.

ey/em/eir (commonly pronounced aye/em/air)

I’m taking em to the park today. Ey wants to bring eir camera to capture the garden for emself!

ae/aer (commonly pronounced aye/air)

Ae is my best friend — most of aer’s weekday evenings are spent at my house.

Fourth news item

Trump’s delusional take on the latest “witch hunt” against him:

“A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me … on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey,” the post said. “Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others. … They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!”

How is it possible that the Republican Party continues to back a candidate who is facing 91 criminal charges against him under five indictments? What does it say that GOP leadership continues to come to his defense? I’ll tell you what it says: absolutely nothing good – about the individuals and about the Party as a whole:

Republicans rallied to Donald Trump’s defense after the former president was indicted on 13 criminal charges in Georgia over his attempt to overturn his defeat there by Joe Biden in the 2020 election.

Kevin McCarthy, the speaker of the US House, said: “Justice should be blind, but Biden has weaponized government against his leading political opponent to interfere in the 2024 election.”

…[H]e dominates Republican primary polling, leading his closest challengers nationally and in early voting states by about 40 points.

Referring to Fani Willis of Fulton county, McCarthy continued: “Now a radical [district attorney] in Georgia is following Biden’s lead by attacking President Trump and using it to fundraise her political career. Americans see through this desperate sham.”

You know what’s also a real shame? The Trump will milk this indictment for every last penny they can get. And unfortunately, sycophants and true believers will obediently cough up what they can to help their savior defeat the uh, mysterious and undefinable Deep State:

On Monday night, after charges were filed in Georgia, an email soliciting donations bemoaned a “FOURTH ACT of Election Interference on behalf of the Democrats in an attempt to keep the White House under Crooked Joe’s control and JAIL his single greatest opponent of the 2024 election”.

Friday morning update from JVW: Guess what? Team Trump has cancelled the press conference where they were to lay out the “Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT.” What a surprise. I just feel bad for all of the suckers who continue to believe the nonsense that comes out of Mar-a-Lago.

Fifth news item – from JVW

We wrap up the Women’s World Cup this weekend with a third-place match of Sweden taking on the host nation Australia followed by a championship final of reigning European champ England being challenged by a rising young squad from Spain. This is a as good a time as any to address the longstanding claim — first popularized as far as I can tell during my boyhood when the late, great Pelé chose to spend the golden years of his career playing in the nascent North American Soccer League — that soccer will soon overtake the Big Three sports in the United States and become our nation’s favorite sport. A new study pours a great deal of cold water on that conventional wisdom:

The numbers are startling. According to annual reports by the Aspen Institute’s Project Play, in the last decade, the proportion of boys and girls aged six to 12 involved in team sports slumped to 36.8 percent, down from 41.4 percent. Among the five top team sports tracked by Aspen, that represents a loss of about 2.8 million participants—or nearly one-fifth of all players. Among high-school-age kids engaged in team sports, the share of those participating similarly dropped to 41.7 percent, from 45.4 percent.

These represent big declines for some of our biggest sports. Soccer, the country’s third-most-popular team sport among kids, has sustained the largest losses. Participation has slumped by more than a quarter of all players, or about 800,000 kids aged six to 12, from a peak of 3 million players in 2010. The number of children aged six to 12 playing basketball has declined to about 4.2 million in 2021, down from a peak of 4.5 million in the same period. Baseball now suits up slightly under 3.7 million participants between the ages of six and 12, a sharp fall from almost 4.5 million in 2008.

Some of this can probably be attributed to the Baby Bust, a poor decision regarding age classification made by the youth soccer federation, and our nation’s predilection for taking youth sports far too seriously. Certainly the pandemic wrought havoc on sports, including soccer, by delaying team formations for kids born in 2014-15, giving more casual players an easy out for quitting the sport, and in general turning kids into couch potatoes.

Inside of three years from now our continent will host the 2026 FIFA Men’s World Cup, so we’ll see if that can be the shot in the arm that the sport needs in this country. But they have their work cut out for them.

Sixth news item – from JVW

Hunter Biden’s cozy plea arrangement with his dad’s Department of Justice appears to be dead, though the attorneys for the scuzzy son are insisting that the very favorable gun deal still needs to be honored. The original defense attorney, Christopher Clark, has resigned from the case, claiming that he may end up being called as a witness with respect to the aforementioned sweetheart deal offered to the irksome Biden whelp. This likely buys more time for Team Biden to push any court proceedings beyond November 2024, though it does raise the possibility that Hunter could be going to trial as soon as next summer, right as the campaign season heats up.

How we ended up with these two jamokes leading our two biggest parties is beyond mortal comprehension.

Seventh news item – from JVW

For all of the media caterwauling about “the return of fascism” every time a party slightly more conservative than Rockefeller Republicans is on the verge of winning office in Europe, it’s important to be reminded that some of the worst actors on the international stage come from the hard left. Meet the nasty Julius Malema of South Africa:

“Shoot to kill! Kill the Boer, the farmer! Kill the Boer, the farmer! Brrrr! Pah! Pah!” These were the words chanted in fine voice by Julius Malema to a rapturous crowd of 100,000 at South Africa’s biggest stadium in Johannesburg on Saturday July 29. Malema was celebrating the tenth birthday of the EFF, the political party he founded and leads.

EFF stands for Economic Freedom Fighters. It is dedicated to fighting economic slavery. It declares itself Leninist-Marxist, wants to seize private property (as Malema’s hero Robert Mugabe did in Zimbabwe), plans to nationalize the banks and the mines and enforce total state control. The EFF is the fastest-growing political party in South Africa and Malema the most forceful political leader. After the general election next year, he could become the deputy president of South Africa. Anybody thinking of investing in the country should know this.

Mr. Malma and EFF’s policy proscription is a mix of Mugabe-style seizure of land from white farmers, ostensibly to be reappropriated to poor black South Africans but in practice given over to political allies who then become feudal lords, along with the usual hodgepodge of Marxism, Maoism, Putinism, and extreme brutality, with a predilection for torture and cruelty when dispatching their perceived enemies. Mr. Malma himself preaches solidarity with the working classes and poor but outfits himself in Italian suits and luxury watches, then drives his children to expensive private schools in his Mercedes-Benz or Range Rover.

Mr. Malma’s political rise has been accelerated by the utter incompetence and corruption of the African National Congress, the party which made Nelson Mandela the first post-apartheid President of South Africa. Since that memorable moment, it has all gone downhill:

The ANC has been a disaster for South Africa, and especially for ordinary black people, whom it has impoverished while making a tiny ANC elite fabulously rich. In 1994, for all the cruelty and stupidity of apartheid, South Africa had excellent infrastructure and reasonably advanced industry. Eskom, the state electricity utility, provided the cheapest electricity in the world, very reliably; there were good passenger trains for workers; the freight trains carried ores to the port. The ANC has wrecked it all with looting, corruption, incompetence and a plethora of racist policies, appointing people on the basis of skin color and political connections rather than merit.

Goods and services are procured not on competitive pricing and quality but on Black Economic Empowerment, which means awarding contracts for shoddy services at high prices to ANC cronies. Eskom has been wrecked, and as a result we have hours of blackouts almost every day. Meanwhile the passenger trains hardly run at all; the freight trains cannot deliver our export minerals to ports. The economy is stagnant, industry is shrinking and unemployment is catastrophic, now at 42 percent (including those who have given up looking for work).

Into this breach steps parties like the EFF, whose politics of resentment and brutish operations have been appealing to a country that remains stubbornly poor, corrupt, and backwards. The academic/media/bureaucratic left doesn’t care to acknowledge when tranquility (such as it is in Africa) is threatened by a leftist totalitarian, especially one from a “historically marginalized” community. This may not end well at all.

[It’s JVW here, gang. I so badly wanted to end this update with some sort of light-hearted or whimsical item, especially given how the items I have contributed to this thread are so overwhelmingly negative. But I can’t seem to come up with anything particularly interesting in these ridiculous times. So if you are willing, any nice stories or humorous anecdotes would be quite welcome.]

Have a great weekend.

–Dana

274 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. AS for south africa sow the wind reap the whirlwind. We had to fight a civil war. Maybe steve biko could have done better.

    asset (e9f987)

  2. The Dispatch has a piece on the Jones Act, a law that should’ve died decades ago and is costing our manufacturing base and cruise line industry, and it’s another example of failed protectionism that didn’t result in more American-built ships.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  3. Trump canceled his Mon press conf on legal advice he said – he will definitely not be at the debate – instead he will be interviewed by Tucker Carlsen

    Sammy Finkelman (bdd397)

  4. This is not an upbeat assessment of the Ukrainian counteroffensive, because there’s no way the Ukrainian freedom fighters can reclaim Melitopol this month.

    I still maintain that it would be a major victory if the Ukrainians can get back this important logistical hub by Thanksgiving, and I hope they can do that. So far, progress is slow but there is progress.

    Actually, I think Mike Martin has a better update than the WA Post, here. I read somewhere that the Ukrainians don’t have to actually reclaim Melitopol is they can take out the dozen or two bridges into and out of the city.

    Also, the cluster munitions are working.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  5. Trump may have cancelled his presser and his “Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT” but that hasn’t stopped Mike Lindell:

    MAGA pillow magnate Mike Lindell kicked off his latest “election crime” summit on Wednesday by boasting how the “important” event would once and for all provide a “plan to secure our elections immediately.”

    In true Lindell fashion, of course, the event went off the rails in only a matter of minutes, after he mistakenly aired a video of Jimmy Kimmel.
    ……..
    (Lindell) directed the audience to the screen to watch a video, only to quickly grow flustered: It was the wrong video, showing Kimmel delivering a monologue. (The late-night host has famously hosted Lindell to roast the MyPillow chief over his conspiracy theories about the 2020 election being “stolen” from Trump.)

    “No, no, no. This is the wrong one,” Lindell shouted as the crowd laughed. “This is the wrong one. Hold on. Well, that’s coming!”
    ……….

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. More from Lindell’s summit:

    Election conspiracy theorist Mike Lindell claims he’s going to stop voting fraud by flying drones near polling places to determine whether voting machines are connected to the Internet.

    Lindell, the My Pillow CEO who helped finance Donald Trump’s baseless election protests, “demonstrated” the technology at an event he hosted in Missouri this week (see video). Lindell’s innovation appears to be a wireless sniffing device mounted on a drone, apparently attached with velcro.
    ……..
    “This was the lie that’s been told to every person in our country… these electronic voting machines—from routers to printers to polling books—they’re not online. Well, what if I told you there was a device that’s been made for the first time in history that can tell you that that machine was online?”

    The drone flew into the building and onto the stage, with Lindell pulling the device off the drone and telling the audience, “This wireless monitoring device, it just grabbed all of your cell phones, everybody in this room, every device that’s on the Internet right now.”
    ………
    “Now we’ve got a way to monitor; we’ve never had this before in history. They can’t lie to us anymore,” Lindell said. “For this fall’s election, we want to get every single parish in Louisiana covered, we’re doing this right now.” A Daily Beast article said Lindell’s plan might violate Louisiana state laws on criminal trespassing and the use of unmanned aircraft to conduct surveillance. Lindell claimed he’s already used the device in Florida.

    ……..It’s not clear why a router connecting to the Internet would be evidence of election fraud, but Lindell provided that as an example multiple times………

    A voiceover in a video shown to Lindell’s audience described the system as follows:
    ……….
    This would, of course, gather information on many devices that have nothing to do with voting machines, like the cell phones in Lindell’s audience. ……

    The video shown to Lindell’s audience said the scanning system currently provides “the MAC address, the hardware vendor, and the first time the device was detected,” and that “additional information will be continually added… all information is securely archived for later analysis. The Wireless Monitoring Device is ready to be deployed in any election from local to presidential.”
    ………..

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  7. Here’s a pretty interesting story from City Journal that I probably would have included had I noticed it earlier. It’s titled “Empire Snub” and is all about some tension between New York State Governor Kathy Hochul and New York City Mayor Eric Adams:

    This week, responding to a state judge’s implication that New York State must do more to help New York City with its migrant crisis, Governor Kathy Hochul tasked her lawyer with writing an extraordinary letter, through which the governor made an implication of her own: the city, under Mayor Eric Adams—due to its incompetence in allowing dozens of migrants to sleep on Manhattan streets, despite having vacant beds, and in failing to supervise an inept-at-best contractor—doesn’t deserve further help. The governor is trying to save her own political skin, and she missed a key opportunity really to help the mayor by getting New York out of its spurious “right to shelter” obligation. But she’s mostly right, and Adams must understand that he’s not going to get help from fellow Democrats outside of the city. The mayor must unequivocally state that New York City cannot—and will not—accept any new migrants into its homeless-shelter system, which was never designed to accommodate a global economic-migration crisis and a conflict-refugee crisis.

    [. . .]

    It’s not just the direct economic cost that New York must consider. It’s becoming obvious—if it wasn’t already — that it was a spectacularly bad idea to convert large-scale Midtown hotels, from the Roosevelt to The Row to The Watson, into migrant shelters for the foreseeable future. The problems mount. The loss of hotels harms the city’s struggling post-Covid tourism industry, and it pushes up apartment-rental prices, as visitors priced out of hotels turn to apartments permanently converted into illegal Airbnb rentals. Migrant men working for food-delivery apps such as UberEats and Grubhub also have begun to store dozens of mopeds, motorcycles, and e-bikes haphazardly around the streets and sidewalks of Midtown hotels, creating an eyesore. Migrant women and children illegally vend fruit, sodas, and other wares in Times Square and Central Park, competing with legally licensed vendors, most of them immigrants themselves. And when the city isn’t renting entire hotels or blocks of rooms, it is taking over community recreation facilities, including soccer fields used by public-school children.

    Yet with no end in sight to the migrant wave, the mayor lacks any plan to deal with the crisis—other than to keep asking Washington and Albany for billions of dollars to secure yet more hotel rooms and erect more tent cities. For more than a year, the Biden administration has refused substantial help—and now the governor, after pledging $1.5 billion, is turning her back, as well.

    Governor Hochul is also turning the screws. As the new letter from the governor’s lawyer states, one reason Albany won’t provide more aid is that the city can’t even execute a bad strategy competently. “The city has been slow to submit its cost reimbursement documentation” for limited state funds, the state’s attorney, Faith Gay, wrote last week. “The state is providing these funds despite public reporting that raises substantial questions about the operations and conduct of the city’s primary contractor.”

    The whole thing is quite the indictment, not only of Mayor Adams wishful thinking about NYC’s ability to function as a “Sanctuary City” but also the degree to which the notoriously bureaucratic and corrupt city government is completely unequipped for dealing with such an intricate problem. And both Albany and Washington apparently get this, and are fine with telling Broadway & Chambers Street to get lost. Pretty remarkable.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  8. This piece about DeSantis and the Heritage Foundation tells me two things: (1) How far Heritage has descended into the Trump Vortex, especially regarding Russia-Ukraine, and (2) DeSantis’ poor judgment in listening to them.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  9. Here’s another Dispatch piece, and it puts all the swirling allegations regarding Joe and Hunter into perspective.
    One of the most ridiculous phrases I’ve heard in recent months is “Biden crime family”, because the only criminal activity for which there’s actually evidence involves one Hunter Biden, but that’s the FoxNews propaganda that’s being used to deflect from Trump’s well-documented criminality.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  10. One of the most ridiculous phrases I’ve heard in recent months is “Biden crime family”, because the only criminal activity for which there’s actually evidence involves one Hunter Biden. . .

    Oh dear lord. At this point I have to actively believe you are either trolling us or that you have some real misplaced affection for the Bidens. The fact that you chalk all of this up to “FoxNews propaganda” tells me a lot about your disposition here. You’re going to have to bear with me continuing to refer to this clown car as the Biden Crime Family, because I think at the very least it is clear that they are trying to hide something.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  11. I don’t care at all to take lectures on Republican values from Bill Kristol. I was a Weekly Standard subscriber for almost 15 years. Him lecturing others on betraying their values is comical.

    Eliot (d137fd)

  12. Oh dear lord. At this point I have to actively believe you are either trolling us or that you have some real misplaced affection for the Bidens.

    Okay, JVW what evidence do you have that Joe committed a crime, or crimes?
    Because the only person who has committed a crime and has “Biden” for a last name is Hunter. That’s not “family”, that’s one person, singular. Either words have meaning or they don’t, and it’s not a “real misplaced affection for the Bidens” to point that out. If new evidence comes out, I’ll change my opinion accordingly.
    If there’s an issue where I actually agree with Joe, it’s the high-tech restrictions he’s placed on the Xi regime and maybe 75% of his Ukraine policy, and that’s about it.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  13. I sort of like the Fulton County judge, or at least the high version of him (link). Anyone who can play a Hendrix-style version of Star Spangled Banner with a cello has my respect.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  14. RIP guitarist Sixto Rodriguez (81). Known simply as Rodriquez, he was the subject of the 2012 Oscar-winning documentary Searching for Sugar Man, which revived his musical career.

    ………..
    Rodriguez only released two studio albums: 1970’s Cold Fact and 1971’s Coming From Reality. They made almost no impact when they were released in America, but became enormously popular in Australia and South Africa in the latter part of the decade. He came to Australia in 1979 and 1981 for concerts where he was treated like a God, sharing a bill with megastars Midnight Oil at one point.

    The rest of the world learned the Rodriguez story in 2012 when Swedish director Malik Bendjelloul released Searching for Sugar Man, a documentary that told his story largely from the perspective of the South African fans who kept his music alive and found him in America despite a persistent urban legend that he was dead.………
    ………..
    Rodriguez’s debut LP, Cold Fact, recorded over just a few weeks in late 1969, is a work of staggering brilliance. ………

    Despite high hopes by (record producer Clarence Avant, who died recently) the album disappeared. The follow-up, Coming From Reality, was equally unsuccessful. Rodriguez vanished from the music scene entirely, focusing largely on his growing family and finding ways to scrounge a living around Detroit. Unbeknownst to him, a shipment of unsold copies of Cold Fact made its way to Australia. When a DJ in Sydney played “Sugar Man,” the records began selling in huge numbers.
    ………..
    The love for Rodriquez in South Africa eclipsed anything that took place in Australia, but most fans believed he was dead. It wasn’t until the advent of the internet that a group of fans were able to pool their resources and realize he was alive and well in Detroit. ………

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  15. The main reason the “Crime Family” thing is silly is that the the phrase was originally used to to describe the Mafia. A crime family was a gang with loose family connections that organized specifically to commit crime. Even if you believe that Joe, Hunter, and Joe’s brother were breaking the law implying they’re a mafia like organization is silly.

    Its decent political marketing by the GOP though and I don’t think expect they’ll stop using it.

    Fwiw I believe Hunter is clearly corrupt and has very likely committed several crimes; Tax evasion, FARA violations, and the gun possession violation.

    I haven’t seen compelling evidence that Joe has committed any criminal acts, but I think the GOP investigations are a good thing, even if highly politicized. The evidence I’ve seen makes it clear he at /least/ tolerated Hunter trading on his name to make money through the implication it allowed Hunter to impact policy. The one issue I have researched (Burisma) showed plenty of evidence that the actions Joe took were based on US policy. But the GOP should keep digging and see what they find.

    Time123 (8bb3cb)

  16. I have my own ideas of which combined New York crime family, in the Godfather sense, federal RICO was enacted for. But it evolved from Godfather to Godfather III since 1946 and the Organization has only faced civil judgments and fines while only its minions have gone to jail so far.

    nk (0093eb)

  17. I wish Hunter was more sympathetic or that the DOJ were being a bit excessive. I really do think a norm around scrutinizing nepotism and influence peddling conducted by the relatives of elected officials is a good thing.

    Archer’s testimony lauded to it when he talked about “navigating dc” but Hunters ability to open doors / get meetings for his clients was also what the was selling. JOE didn’t need go do or say anything for lesser officials to take a meeting and listen to his son’s client.

    Time123 (b029c1)

  18. One of the things that bothered me was Joe taking twenty of Hunter’s calls on speaker while the son’s business associates were present, but it bothers me less that the calls were over a span of ten years, per the Dispatch link, meaning that some calls occurred while Joe was VP and others when he was a private citizen. Either way, I still don’t like it, because Hunter is a skeezbag and Joe was skirting the edges.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  19. Morning Consult Republican Primary Tracking Poll-8/15/23

    …………
    The bulk of the GOP’s electorate (57%) would back Trump if the primary or caucus were held in their state today, while 16% would support DeSantis.

    Ramaswamy is backed by 9% of the party’s potential voters, followed by Pence (7%), and former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott and former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (each tied at 3%). Hutchinson, Suarez and North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum have 1% support, while Hurd has 0% backing.
    ………..
    Hypothetical head-to-head matchups show Biden leading Trump by 2 points and DeSantis by 6 points among the general electorate. Voters are slightly more uncertain about who they would support or say they would opt for “someone else” when Biden is matched up against DeSantis.
    ………..
    Trump is popular with 76% of the party’s potential electorate, while 22% view him unfavorably.
    ……….
    Christie’s net favorability rating is 19 points underwater, with 47% of potential GOP primary voters holding unfavorable views.
    ……….

    This obviously is why Trump won’t be at the Milwaukee debate-why raise the profile of your minor opponents and suffer their slings and arrows when showing up would only drive down your own numbers. Trump’s voters won’t be the ones watching the debate, only those supporting his opponents or not already supporting Trump.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  20. “why raise the profile of your minor opponents and suffer their slings and arrows”

    He also has 4 criminal indictments and by making public statements, he may actually incriminate himself. It would be extremely awkward for Trump to have to answer hard and embarrassing questions from Christie. Sure he would lie and prosecutors would be watching. He won’t attend because he’s scared and teh cult will continue to protect him.

    AJ_Liberty (2efe2c)

  21. I don’t understand Mr. Lindell’s comments about Louisiana. Trump won nearly 60% of the votes in 2020.
    On another topic, I do believe that it would be better for our youth to play more sports, not less.

    Mark (6562ef)

  22. The ISW pushed back on the WA Post’s reporting on Melitopol.
    Bottom line: There’s more than one way to cut off supply lines between the mainland and Crimean peninsula.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  23. He also has 4 criminal indictments……..

    All things being equal, I don’t think Trump would have attended even if he hadn’t been indicted.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  24. Yes, I’m NeverRamaswamy. Add him to my list of other “nevers”: Trump, Biden, Hillary, Cruz, and now Vivek.

    “Our goal should not be for Putin to lose.”

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  25. More on the Milwaukee “debate”:

    ……….
    (Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum) plan to make Mr. Trump a major figure in the two-hour program — whether he shows up or not.

    The Fox team has prepared questions to ask Trump rivals about his most recent criminal indictment, which was handed down by a grand jury in Georgia. They are also considering integrating video of Mr. Trump into their questioning, according to people familiar with the planning.

    The questions will begin immediately. Candidates will not be allowed to make opening statements. They will, however, be allotted 45-second closing statements. Each answer will be limited to one minute, with a sound like a hotel front desk’s bell alerting candidates that their time has expired. (Fox has retired the doorbell-like chime it used in the last debates after it sent some dogs into barking fits.)
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  26. “He won’t attend because he’s scared and teh cult will continue to protect him.”

    He won’t attend largely because he has a commanding lead, and has nothing to gain from a debate. This is true for Trump as it is for Biden, who also won’t debate. But it is also true the indictments add an extra element, and I would expect Christie or some other opponent (and also moderators) to ask questions or make points crafted to cause Trump to walk a legal tightrope if he responds. To some, that is all the more reason to goad him into debating. For others, this is all the more reason to suspect the motivation and timing of the indictments.

    lloyd (eebc41)

  27. Biden won’t debate because incumbents haven’t debated since the format began in 1948.
    Trump made the cowardly choice that not debating (instead taking slow-pitch softball questions from Tucker) would better his chances (and incriminate himself less) than showing up and facing his rivals.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  28. Trump won’t debate for three reasons:
    1. He’s too lazy to prep for it.
    2. He does not have the physical stamina to stand up there for two hours.
    3. He does not have the mental agility to give unrehearsed responses. Not coherent ones, anyway.

    nk (0093eb)

  29. Can’t Win With Trump, Can’t Win Without Trump:

    Republican strategists are worried that if former President Trump doesn’t secure the GOP’s presidential nomination next year, or if he is kept off the ballot because of his mounting legal problems, it could spell a voter turnout disaster for their party in 2024.

    GOP strategists say there’s growing concern that if Trump is not the nominee, many of his core supporters, who are estimated to make up 25 percent to 35 percent of the party base, “will take their ball and go home.”
    ………..
    A Pew Research Center analysis of the 2022 midterm election published last month found that higher turnout among Trump voters last year was a key factor behind Republicans winning control of the House.

    The analysis found that 71 percent of voters who backed Trump participated in the midterm election, compared to 67 percent of voters who supported Biden.
    …………
    “I would say there’s two scenarios, either Trump’s the nominee and we just go with it and whatever, or Trump’s not the nominee and then we have a nominee that Trump’s going to be trashing,” said Bob Clegg, an Ohio-based Republican strategist.

    Given the intense loyalty to Trump among many Republican voters, Clegg said there’s little chance any other candidate will beat him out for the nomination.
    …………
    A Senate Republican strategist said the special election in Ohio last Tuesday, where voters overwhelmingly defeated a ballot proposition that would have made it tougher to protect abortion rights, showed that if Trump’s not on the ballot, it hurts GOP turnout in rural areas.
    …………
    At the same time, the strategist acknowledged that Trump’s overwhelming popularity with blue-collar and rural voters is offset by his unpopularity with college-educated women and suburban voters.
    …………
    David Paleologos, the director of the Suffolk University Political Research Center, said about 40 percent of Republican voters who feel confident about whom they will vote for next year are solidly behind Trump.
    …………
    “The Trump voters, even from our polling, have pretty much said: ‘It’s Trump or bust,’” he said. “There’s a percentage of voters who won’t even vote Republican if he doesn’t get the nomination.”
    …………

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  30. Fox News National Poll 8/16/23

    ……….
    Fifty-three percent of Republican primary voters prefer Trump, down a touch from 56% in June.

    That gives him a 37-point lead over DeSantis, who receives the backing of 16%. That’s down from 22% support in June and a high of 28% in February.

    Some 11% of GOP primary voters favor Ramaswamy, about twice what he received previously.

    The remaining candidates garner single digits, including Mike Pence at 5%, Nikki Haley at 4%, Chris Christie and Tim Scott at 3% each, and Doug Burgum at 1%. Larry Elder, Francis Suarez, Will Hurd, Asa Hutchinson, and Perry Johnson receive less than 1%.
    …………
    On Trump’s federal indictment over efforts to overturn the 2020 election, among the half of Republican primary voters who don’t think he did anything seriously wrong, 75% of them back him. He also receives 31% support from those saying he did something illegal or wrong.

    On the Democratic side, as has been the case since May, President Joe Biden receives 64% among Democratic primary voters, leading Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (17%) and Marianne Williamson (9%).
    ………….
    Of all candidates tested, (Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s) 46% favorable rating is the highest. That comes more from Republicans (58%) and independents (44%) than Democrats (36%).
    ………..
    ……….. Among self-identified Republicans, Trump garners a 78% favorable, followed by DeSantis at 66% and Ramaswamy at 51%. Next, it’s Pence and Scott (both 45%), followed by Haley (42%), Christie (24%), and Burgum (9%).

    Name recognition is an issue for some, as many Republicans are unable to rate Burgum (78% can’t rate), Scott (42%), Haley (35%), and Ramaswamy (35%).
    ………..

    Toplines and cross tabs.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  31. “He won’t attend largely because he has a commanding lead, and has nothing to gain from a debate.”

    But primaries are also for prepping for the general election. Trump won’t be able to duck Biden….and at some point he will need to answer adversarial questions about January 6th, classified documents, Georgia interference, porn star payoffs, sexual assault judgments, what he means about retribution, what are his plans for executive agencies, and who he might consider for cabinet-level positions. I think the GOP electorate deserves to hear how he plans to answer these questions or whether he will need to plead the 5th throughout the general election. So, it will be fair for the other candidates to call Trump out this week…sternly. The 46% of the GOP electorate not currently supporting Trump deserves to hear from the front runner. This is not a sitting incumbent President who could argue that he is too busy to debate. This is last election’s loser….with multiple indictments….who is polling below Biden….and perilously hemorrhaging moderates and independents. The party should be able to test its front runner. The lead is big only because the field is broad and there have not yet been any defining debates. Eventually the field will coalesce….and previous “Lilliputians” will gain status. Previous election cycle polls are of marginal value when the front runner faces serious time.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  32. it will be fair for the other candidates to call Trump out this week…sternly……

    Don’t count on it. Among those who have appeared to qualify (Ron DeSantis, Tim Scott, Vivek Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley, Chris Christie, Mike Pence, and Doug Burgum) only two (Christie and now Pence) have fully embraced the anti-Trump mantle. All of the remaining candidates have defended Trump and attacked the DOJ and FBI, going so far to offer “first day of administration” pardons of Trump if he is convicted. Ramaswamy has even offered to write an amicus brief supporting Trump.

    Who knows what Nikki Haley believes? Her current position appears to be sticking her fingers in her ears and saying “Neener neener neener I can’t hear you!”

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  33. The party should be able to test its front runner. The lead is big only because the field is broad and there have not yet been any defining debates. Eventually the field will coalesce….and previous “Lilliputians” will gain status. Previous election cycle polls are of marginal value when the front runner faces serious time.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 8/19/2023 @ 11:26 am

    Which goes to show how weak political party organizations are-they can’t make anyone do anything. And Trump’s lead isn’t big because of a large field (you would think it would be narrower with so many choices), it’s big because the vast majority of Republican voters want Trump to be the nominee. Republican voters aren’t buying what the Lilliputians are selling.

    The only reason for a change in the dynamic is if Trump is forced to leave the race. And without a trial and conviction in early 2024, that is unlikely to happen. Even then Trump may not leave. The RNC has no power to force him out, another consequence of deliberately weakening party organizations.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  34. “have fully embraced the anti-Trump mantle.”

    You don’t have to go NeverTrump to criticize Trump for not being able to be at the debate because of…at least in part….the overwhelming amount of legal jeopardy that he is in. I expect DeSantis to make this argument. I suspect the basic point will be echoed by Haley and Scott too.

    “it’s big because the vast majority of Republican voters want Trump to be the nominee”

    Around 50%…only….even with his vast name recognition. Some voters still really don’t know who Haley and Scott are. That’s why you have debates. People are still circling the wagons for Trump. The dynamic will change…especially with the absence of Trump from the debate this week. I still acknowledge that FNC will need to start to go soft on Trump. Saw it last week with Brett Baier guests concluding that the indictments make it really difficult for Trump to win in Nov. Again, none of it might matter….but there’s a reason Trump’s not up at 80% with only Christie and Hutchinson being quite negative. The reality of potentially nominating a felon is a tough pill to swallow but it will start to sink in.

    I think at best one case will be active before Nov….but when that evidence gushes out….it ain’t gonna be pretty.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  35. I think at best one case will be active before Nov….but when that evidence gushes out….it ain’t gonna be pretty.

    Not in 2023.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  36. Trump’s approval among Republican voters is 76%, according to the Morning Consult poll at post 20. And against eight other candidates, he leads with 56%. Any other politician with these numbers would be considered invincible. The only thing holding back Trump with these numbers is Trump himself.

    And when the evidence “gushes out” and the Republicans end up nominating a felon, TrumpWorld won’t care, because Trump took the hit for them.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  37. Quinnipiac University National Poll 8/16/23

    ……….
    ……… Americans 54 – 42 percent think Trump should be prosecuted on criminal charges……… Democrats (95 – 5 percent) and independents (57 – 37 percent) think the former president should be prosecuted on criminal charges for allegedly attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, while Republicans (85 – 12 percent) think Trump should not be prosecuted. ………..

    Nearly two-thirds of Americans (64 percent) think the federal criminal charges accusing former President Trump of attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election are either very serious (52 percent) or somewhat serious (12 percent), while roughly one-third (32 percent) think they are either not too serious (11 percent) or not serious at all (21 percent).

    ……….. Among Republicans, 18 percent think the federal criminal charges are very serious, while 48 percent say they are not serious at all.

    ……….. Among Republicans, 59 percent say it has no impact on their view of Trump, while 11 percent say it makes them think less favorably of him, and 28 percent say it makes them think more favorably of him.
    …………
    In the race for the GOP presidential nomination, former President Trump remains far ahead of the 11 other listed candidates with 57 percent support among Republican and Republican leaning voters. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis receives 18 percent, his lowest level of support in Quinnipiac University’s polls of the 2024 GOP primary race this year. In February 2023, DeSantis was 6 points behind Trump and now he is 39 points behind.

    In today’s poll, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy receives 5 percent support; former Vice President Mike Pence receives 4 percent support; and former United Nations Ambassador and South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, South Carolina Senator Tim Scott, and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie each receive 3 percent support. All other listed Republican candidates receive 1 percent or less support.

    In the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, President Biden receives 72 percent support among Democrats and Democratic leaning voters, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., an environmental lawyer and anti- vaccine activist receives 13 percent support and Marianne Williamson, an author, receives 9 percent support.
    ……………

    When only 12% of Republicans polled think Trump should be prosecuted for his actions on January 6th, you can understand why he thinks his poll numbers are so high and he can run and win the Republican nomination.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  38. Nikki Haley’s one and only chance to break with Trump is at this debate. If she’s going to do it, she needs to be in full control of the message, and debates are where candidates can speak directly to the voters. If she fails to do so, she becomes a disappointing asterisk, like a number of the others.

    Kevin M (da4fb2)

  39. Hey asset, thought of your interest in women race car drivers when this came across…

    https://www.autoweek.com/racing/more-racing/a44857895/tony-stewart-racing-driver-ashlea-albertson-dies-in-apparent-road-rage-incident/

    urbanleftbehind (330b13)

  40. And when the evidence “gushes out” and the Republicans end up nominating a felon, TrumpWorld won’t care

    The Trumpites who said things like “There’s nothing he could do that would make me stop supporting him” were absolutely serious about it. In MAGA eyes, Trump is the ultimate standard of patriotic righteousness, and nothing done by him could ever be as wrong as the sin of faulting him for it.

    One of the early “intellectual” arguments for Trump was that Christians were so grievously injured by attacks on their religious values that they flocked to Trump in desperation for a champion to defend their faith. It was a weird argument from the start. It’s even more ludicrous in view of reports about MAGA evangelicals hearing the teachings of Jesus as “liberal talking points,” and openly favoring the morality of Trump instead.

    MAGAs apparently weren’t looking for someone to defend their religious values so much as they were seeking a new religion more to their liking.

    Radegunda (1399d5)

  41. https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/the-chicanery-of-the-hunter-biden-plea-bargain/

    How come? It is not a subject Weiss wants to dwell on, but we should. There is no explanation on the record. Yet, we know that Justice Department guidelines instruct that a defendant is ineligible for diversion if he is “accused of an offense involving brandishing or use of a firearm or other deadly weapon.” Hunter is known to have obtained a gun in October 2018 by lying on a required government form about his illegal-drug use. There is video from the laptop showing him brandishing a gun a few days later in a depraved and potentially dangerous scene with a prostitute. Not long after that, because of his carelessness, the gun he purchased after lying on the federal form was lost across the street from a school. (It was later recovered.)

    As if that weren’t bad enough, I believe the probation office realized Hunter had to have been handling more than one gun on his autumn 2018 drug binge — and it’s not clear all guns have been accounted for. The gun he purchased after lying on the form is a revolver (described in the diversion agreement as a Colt Cobra 38-special revolver); but the gun in the video from a few days later is not a revolver (it appears to be a Glock). Note, moreover, that the diversion agreement called for Hunter to forfeit “all firearms . . . including but not limited to” the revolver. Implicitly, Weiss was acknowledging that there could be multiple guns at issue. Naturally, the Biden Justice Department doesn’t want to broadcast that fact: President Biden is as demagogic as Democrats get in demonizing law-abiding gun-owners and Second Amendment rights; his son’s felony possession of a single gun — that his Justice Department tried to give Hunter a pass on — is humiliating enough.

    Oof. Remember the Biden apologists on here who tried to excuse Hunter Biden’s criminal behavior claiming he only had the illegal firearm for a mere week. Yeah, about that…

    The scales of justice… yeah, okay.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  42. @36, Of course I meant next year…but before the election.

    @37, Your # for Trump has crept up from what you posted above: 53%. You also keep referencing this with respect to past elections. I keep trying to emphasize that we’ve never had a situation like the current one where a candidate can be literally found guilty of a crime before the election and possibly before the convention. You’re a little too glib that this elephant doesn’t matter. I disagree. And Tuesday is the first inflection point where it can start to erode support.

    Of the 76% that have a positive view of Trump, how many have an objective unbiased understanding of any of his criminal charges? I think we are still in the information gathering phase of the campaign for many people….eg, everyone I spoke today really haven’t decided and don’t even know some of the candidates. You essentially say that none of the 76% will watch the debate and that none are open to persuasion or any changes in messaging or any changes from the media.

    Maybe, but why continue to revel in it or drown in cynicism? What does it accomplish? If Trump is nominated, it’s a truly horrible event and may signal tragic consequences for our democracy, especially if the justice system convicts him and violence erupts. I favor giving the system as much time as required to move people. It’s not clear if anyone can catch fire but I want to believe that someone can. I hope you’re able to indulge that….

    AJ_Liberty (d45f6c)

  43. Your # for Trump has crept up from what you posted above: 53%.

    AJ_Liberty (d45f6c) — 8/19/2023 @ 5:36 pm

    Trump’s personal approval among Republican voters is 76%, he leads the Republican primary field with 53-57% share (depending on the poll). That’s the difference between the two numbers, they measure different things.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  44. You also keep referencing this with respect to past elections.

    I don’t think so, do you have a quote?

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  45. You essentially say that none of the 76% will watch the debate and that none are open to persuasion or any changes in messaging or any changes from the media.

    I’m sure some will watch it, whether they are persuadable is another question. Some may be and hopefully that will be reflected in subsequent polling. But the true diehards will be watching whatever counter event Trump has planned.

    It doesn’t matter if the 76% that approve of Donald Trump have an “ objective unbiased understanding of any of his criminal charges.” They obviously don’t think the indictments are important and are probably are not persuadable on the indictments alone. Like some here, they like his positions on issues they care about which overrides any concerns about the indictments.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  46. “I don’t think so, do you have a quote?”

    In essence, history tells us that such a lead is insurmountable. To that effect. History hasn’t seen this.

    “Like some here, they like his positions on issues they care about”

    What “issues” has Trump meaningfully discussed in the past 3 years? No, It all revolves around him and his personality. He mined Talk Radio, cribbed it, and mixed in a heavy dose of outrageous drama. Like 70% say they thought Covid restrictions were harmful, yet 70% also say that Trump’s Covid restrictions were not harmful (in AllahNick’s recent piece).

    At some point as actual votes get close, enough people will pay more attention….and won’t want to lose. This isn’t 2016. Moderates aren’t so charmed by his personality….and they won’t want to bet on a felon….

    AJ_Liberty (d45f6c)

  47. More about Vivek Ramaswamy’s foreign policy vision:

    ……… Given his performance thus far, one cannot help but wonder if he’s auditioning for a geopolitical game show instead of the presidency of the United States.

    ………. His proposal to hand Putin almost everything he desires in and around Ukraine in exchange for Russia’s ending its alliance with China and rejoining the START nuclear treaty is more reminiscent of a freshman poli-sci student’s wishful thinking than a thoughtful peace plan from a serious presidential contender.………..

    Then there’s Taiwan. ……… His audacious goal of making the U.S. “semiconductor-independent” by 2028 and subsequently withdrawing support for Taiwan showcases a transactional worldview that would leave our allies questioning our reliability.

    ……….He suggests that once the current ten-year, $38 billion nonbinding memorandum of understanding between the United States and Israel expires in 2028, the Jewish state should stand “on its own two feet” financially. But foreign aid to Israel isn’t a mere charity; it’s a strategic investment. By conflating the two, Ramaswamy reveals a disturbing lack of discernment. Israel’s stability, innovative spirit, and geopolitical positioning are invaluable assets for the U.S.

    What’s concerning isn’t that Ramaswamy is questioning the status quo; indeed, every policy should be subject to rigorous debate. The problem is the seeming impulsiveness, inconsistency, and naïveté that underscores his position.
    …………

    Like DeSantis and Trump, Ramaswamy wants to distance the US from intervening on behalf of friendly governments and formal alliances. Here is an interview from Monday with Hugh Hewitt on his foreign policy perspective.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  48. At some point as actual votes get close, enough people will pay more attention….and won’t want to lose. This isn’t 2016. Moderates aren’t so charmed by his personality….and they won’t want to bet on a felon….

    AJ_Liberty (d45f6c) — 8/19/2023 @ 7:41 pm

    We’ll see when Trump starts polling in mid-40s against the Republican primary field. Before that happens, he is the leading candidate for the Republican nomination. My view is that if Trump wins in Iowa (current RCP average lead +27), New Hampshire (+31) , and South Carolina (+26), it’s game over.

    All of the leads are over DeSantis.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  49. What “issues” has Trump meaningfully discussed in the past 3 years?

    There’s a long exchange here starting at post 117 that explains why people support Trump despite everything else.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  50. @41:

    So, where did Jesus argue that the Romans should force people to feed the poor? Because that’s the actual “liberal” talking point. They may try to fuzz that little detail up, of course.

    Kevin M (da4fb2)

  51. I doubt that many of Trump’s supporters have spent much time looking at the charges. They are reacting to the spin that Trump (and some erstwhile opponents) have put on it … the witch hunt meme. At some point the actual charges will penetrate, and some of them will look for an alternative.

    This will be hampered some by #nevertrump calling them morons or suggesting their grievances aren’t real.

    Kevin M (da4fb2)

  52. So, where did Jesus argue that the Romans should force people to feed the poor? Because that’s the actual “liberal” talking point.

    Nice strawman, but “forcing people to feed the poor” does not sum up the MAGA-evangelical rejection of Christian values. Biblical words of Jesus have drawn a negative response from Trump-loving evangelicals — even when they’re told where the words came from.

    People who have studied white evangelicals say they are largely an identity group in which politics is more defining than religion. Many are not regular churchgoers.

    Reverence for Donald Trump in itself bespeaks a rather thin commitment to religious or ethical values.

    Radegunda (ff5e4e)

  53. 66 year old woman shot and killed when anti-gay bigot demands she take down gay pride flag. (arrowhead calif.)

    asset (2b694f)

  54. Hunter biden got plea deal when his lawyers threaten to put president biden on witness stand.

    asset (2b694f)

  55. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/19/2023 @ 10:04 am

    I’m NeverRamaswamy. Add him to my list of other “nevers”: Trump, Biden, Hillary, Cruz, and now Vivek.

    Among the other things he said was that the United States only has an interest in defending Taiwan till 2028, because after that, there’ll be other places to get chips.

    The only thing of value in that respect is deterrence working because if there’s a war it’s hard to see how chips could continue to be imported from Taiwan while the war is going on.

    China’;s fertility rate has dropped some more, and China has stopped releasing statistics on that also

    Among the reasons NOT given by people who write about this is increasing lack of freedom and the possibility of a war (even if that is somewhat irrational, as the possibility of a war is for a time a lot less than 20 years from now)

    Sammy Finkelman (c22349)

  56. 8..

    despite having vacant beds

    Some person working for the city told the New York daily News last Monday and Thursday that the vacant beds were for ordinary homeless (paraphrase) because the migrants and the regular homeless are different populations. That is the first clear statement that they are being segregated.

    I’ve suspected that especially because Mayor Adams came up with the idea of making migrants reapply for shelter after 60 days. What for except to put them in a different place.’

    The regular shelters contain criminals and emotionally disturbed people. People don;’t want to go there because of danger and theft and som =me because they can’t take drugs there,

    I=when any migrant dies it gets more attention and I think adams doesn;t want to call attention to the situation in the homeless shelters.

    Sammy Finkelman (c22349)

  57. Adams is also wasting money with his homeless care system. They are soending $383 per day per migrant ($256 fr=or shelter, the $127 for food, medical care etc)

    He only wanted to get reimbursed.

    There a=were just over 100,000 foreign people who entered the shelter system in the last 15 months or so, of which about 57,000 are still in it. That’s about equal to the old shelter population. One thing the progressive city council wants to do is let people go into public housing sooner, which Mayor adams opposed but now favors but he opposes all their other ideas. The city has historically opposed this I think because it creates of incentives for people to declare themselves homeless and beat the waiting list for public housing.

    Now the nayor;s office is coming up with all sorts of possible ideas for housing the migrants, but some ideas are not being heard.

    This has nothing to do with being a sanctuary city, because a sanctuary merely means they are not arrested. It has a little to do with a “right to shelter” which is based on vague language in the state constitution and applies only to NYC because of a court settlement decades ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (c22349)

  58. asset (2b694f) — 8/19/2023 @ 11:35 pm

    Hunter biden got plea deal when his lawyers threaten to put president biden on witness stand.

    No, it’s been reported that he wouldn’t even have been charged (with the tax offenses maybe?) if it hadn’t been for the whistleblowers testimony to Congress. Maybe just the gun charge – that would explain why the immunity from all prosecution was included with the gun charge

    Now Hunter’s lead lawyer has withdrawn because he wants to be a witness, claiming that the prosecutor made an irrevocable commitment not to prosecute him. I suppose like with Bill Cosby.

    Sammy Finkelman (c22349)

  59. 66 year old woman shot and killed when anti-gay bigot demands she take down gay pride flag. (arrowhead calif.)

    asset (2b694f) — 8/19/2023 @ 11:33 pm

    That’s horrible. Law enforcement ended up shooting the shooter.

    Like I said, more and more of these nutjobs will out themselves as the election approaches.

    norcal (36391c)

  60. I hope everuone in California is ok. A hurricane and an earthquake is bad.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  61. I’m sure this issue will come up in the Republican debate:

    ……………
    The GOP presidential candidates have taken differing approaches on abortion as they contend with a party base that is more conservative on the issue than many Americans. Some have backed a 15-week national ban, others have said abortion should be left to the states. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and former President Donald Trump have avoided committing to a national ban, and Trump has warned that extreme abortion positions could hinder Republicans.
    …………
    Democrats see abortion rights as a potent issue in the 2024 election that could boost them in swing states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Recent polling indicates most Americans favor some abortion access. A May Gallup poll showed that 34% say it should be legal under any circumstances, 51% say it should be legal under “certain circumstances” and 13% say it should be illegal in all circumstances.
    …………
    (Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America, a politically powerful antiabortion group), said it is critical to get Republican presidential candidates talking about the issue in a forceful way or it will signal the party is in retreat on the issue, which could hurt the antiabortion side in coming ballot fights in Ohio, Arizona and other states.

    “What happens on that debate stage will affect state ballot initiatives. A head in the sand will communicate expectant losses and that is not to be abided,” she said………
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  62. @63 the republican party and media does not want to talk about abortion. Try calling a national conservative talk show and tell the screener you want to talk about how the kansas and ohio abortion votes will have on the 2024 election. Abortion is doing to republicans (voting against every republican on ballot) that gun control has done to democrats for the last 50 years and republican leadership knows it. Since the base is rabidly pro-life they are hoisted on their own petard so they try not to discuss abortion so what happened to linzy graham doesn’t happen to them!.

    asset (c47f33)

  63. @DRj@62 5.1 isn’t too bad, it sounds like there wasn’t much damage. I’m NorCal, so I might get a bit of rain tomorrow, but nothing significant. I hope the SoCal people are battened down.

    Nic (896fdf)

  64. Nice strawman, but “forcing people to feed the poor” does not sum up the MAGA-evangelical rejection of Christian values. Biblical words of Jesus have drawn a negative response from Trump-loving evangelicals — even when they’re told where the words came from.

    Show me where they argue against charity, or for any tolerance that Christ Himself showed? There were things that He did not approve of, you know.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  65. I hope everyone in California is ok. A hurricane and an earthquake is bad.

    See Heinlein’s “Year of the Jackpot.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  66. Calling something a strawman, with no evidence it is a strawman is not an argument at all, but a sly ducking of the question.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  67. Show me where they argue against charity, or for any tolerance that Christ Himself showed? There were things that He did not approve of, you know.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/20/2023 @ 11:22 pm

    Link

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  68. to have someone come up after to say

    So, you extrapolate from one, or a few, to all. Sorry, doesn’t work for me.

    I’m sure that I could find just as many who would argue that Jesus wanted high taxes. Yes, it’s stupid, but so is your example, cherry-picked to make just your point.

    Talk about strawmen.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  69. I don’t extrapolate from some to all. I extrapolate from some to some.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  70. I’m sure that I could find just as many who would argue that Jesus wanted high taxes. Yes, it’s stupid, but so is your example, cherry-picked to make just your point.

    It seemed to me you were asking for an example, Kevin. I remembered one from the other thread, so I linked it. How about not trying to read my mind or motives, OK?

    And if saying that people argue that Jesus wanted high taxes is stupid, why did you say pretty much that, or words to that effect, in this very thread?:

    So, where did Jesus argue that the Romans should force people to feed the poor? Because that’s the actual “liberal” talking point.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  71. So now we learn from Hunter Biden’s lawyer that the sweetheart deal was even sweeter. No guilty plea. No jail time. Only pay the taxes owned on the 5 years of current lookback after they ran out the clock on previous theft.

    Good deal if you can get it. Must be nice to have people in power leveraging for you.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  72. @73

    So now we learn from Hunter Biden’s lawyer that the sweetheart deal was even sweeter. No guilty plea. No jail time. Only pay the taxes owned on the 5 years of current lookback after they ran out the clock on previous theft.

    Good deal if you can get it. Must be nice to have people in power leveraging for you.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/21/2023 @ 6:17 am

    But remember Rob, his dad, the President of the United States of America, has zero input into this.

    The defenders are asking us to be stupid.

    Just like the arguments that Joe Biden isn’t in “trouble” regarding the corruptions we’re finding because, there’s no bloody ‘bribe check’ with his name on it.

    The simplest way to test this, is to answer the following question:
    Would any of the Bidens make as much money has they had during Biden’s VP/POTUS years had Joe Biden NEVER been VP/POTUS?

    There’s your answer.

    Again, they’re asking us to be dumb.

    Just call their dumb arguments out.

    whembly (eafcf2)

  73. I hope everuone in California is ok. A hurricane and an earthquake is bad.

    DRJ (8d831d) — 8/20/2023 @ 3:34 pm

    There was heavy flooding in the deserts, which received a year’s worth of rain in a couple of hours. Palm Springs and the Coachella Valley was especially hard hit, as were the mountain burn areas from the past few years of fires.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  74. <a

    href=”https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-08-18/california-gop-abortion-same-sex-marriage-platform-trump-desantis-scott”>California GOP may strip opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage from platform

    A rebellious campaign within the California Republican Party to break away from its historic opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage is dividing the party weeks before planned appearances by former President Trump and other GOP White House hopefuls.
    ………..
    “It’s a seismic shift but it’s a shift born out of practical necessity. Look at what’s happening not just in California but in much more conservative states, realizing antiabortion, anti-same-sex marriage stances are no longer tenable,” said Jessica Levinson, an election law professor at Loyola Law School. “I think it shows their acknowledgment that the sand has shifted underneath their feet.”
    …………
    The California GOP proposal — adopted by a party committee in late July — supports “traditional family values” and a “strong and healthy family unit.” But it removes language that says “it is important to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.”

    The draft also excises opposition to a federally protected right to abortion, while maintaining support for “adoption as an alternative to abortion.”
    ……………
    “This will be extremely controversial and will take a convention that is supposed to be about unifying the party and instead it ends up becoming a big feud,” said Jon Fleischman, a former state GOP executive director. “It’s the last thing the party needs.”

    He described it as “a big middle finger” to the presidential candidates who are scheduled to speak at the convention, “all of whom embrace the various party planks that are proposed for removal.”.
    ……………
    The draft proposal also eliminates language about taxpayer protection for homeowners and a plank about opposing racism. But at a time while the GOP nationally is focused on culture wars, the changes in approach to same-sex marriage and abortion are likely to draw the most consternation among state Republicans.
    ……………
    The draft platform will be voted on at the state party’s fall convention, which former President Trump, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott and other presidential candidates are expected to attend. ……….
    ……………

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  75. Link to post 76.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  76. And if saying that people argue that Jesus wanted high taxes is stupid, why did you say pretty much that, or words to that effect, in this very thread?:

    Because a number of lefties, including asset here, have made that claim (fuzzing it up some to imply that advocating charity is the same as forcing charity).

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  77. whembly:

    You guys do get out over your shoes with the Hunter Biden case in ways that trashes your case. Y’all want so desperately to insinuate that Joe Biden was taking bribes (preferably from Burisma, so that Trump’s actions in the first impeachment can be papered over), that you lose credibility. Something stinks with the way the H. Biden case was prosecuted and what was persued and not persued. If the Congressional committee could stick with that and focus on that, you’d be better off. Frankly, Biden’s support of his son’s business by simply appearing in conversations at key moments feels corrupt to me. Alas, that doesn’t seem enough for your investigators.

    If your party could fall out of love with your desperately corrupt leader, it would have a lot more credibility on all matters Biden. Otherwise, the stink of hypocracy is all over this investigation — and is easy to charactarize as just the usual garbage from Donald and his slander brigade.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  78. Appalled,

    focus on the corruption of the individual in power. Your whataboutism to paper over it is noted.

    NJRob (0bc74c)

  79. A little late, but to Elizabeth Francis: Happy Birthday!

    Not many 94-year-olds still have their mothers around, but Dorothy Williams does — and the two women live together in Houston.

    Her mother, Elizabeth Francis, just turned 114.

    “I guess I would have to say the Lord has blessed me in my young age,” joked Francis, whose birthday was July 25.

    She’s currently the second oldest in the US, seventh in the world.

    Jim Miller (ea859e)

  80. @79

    whembly:

    You guys do get out over your shoes with the Hunter Biden case in ways that trashes your case.

    Yeah, go play in the highway with that bs.

    You are demanding that I play dumb.

    Y’all want so desperately to insinuate that Joe Biden was taking bribes (preferably from Burisma, so that Trump’s actions in the first impeachment can be papered over), that you lose credibility.

    Again, go play in the highway. This isn’t about “papering over” Trump’s actions.

    This is about applying the same bloody rules and standards that were applied to the Trumps to the Bidens.

    If the Steele document was enough to open up an investigation into an active political campaign and following active administration, that which eventually lead to a Special Counsel on the barest, flimsiest predicate… then, there’s more than enough for the DOJ to investigate the Bidens. Which, I’ll add, that there are far more credible evidences now to pursue a vigorous investigation than at ANY f’n point during the Trump administration.

    I’m not some Trumper Humper… as, I thought he should’ve been impeached/removed on J7.

    Something stinks with the way the H. Biden case was prosecuted and what was persued and not persued.

    You look silly with this, as we now know via leaks of email correspondences between Hunter’s lawyers and the DOJ (which had to be Hunter’s lawyer to pressure the DOJ) that the DOJ worked with the lawyers initially do NOT charge Hunter with anything, so long has he backpays everything. It was *ONLY* the IRS whistleblower who made the DOJ/Hunter’s lawyers to revise the plan that ended up in the recent the plea deal, as the original plan would’ve made the DOJ untenably corrupt.

    Same prosecutor, Wise, is now Special Counsel.

    Wise is now going to delay as long as he can, so long he can say “still investigating, so can’t comment” which will allow the statue of limitation to expire (as Hunter still hasn’t been indicted).

    So, please, don’t ask me to be dumb.

    This is text book case of “the fix was in”… and “how do we mitigate the political risks?”

    Both Wise and Garland should be impeached on this alone. As this is not a debate about “policy differences” no “prosecutorial discretion”.

    This is straight up government malfeasance and corruption.

    If the Congressional committee could stick with that and focus on that, you’d be better off.

    No. There must be two things.

    1) Crimes that Hunter committed must face the law. If he escapes, the political accountability must be exacted.

    2) As a political matter, all things should be on the table, including impeachment.

    Frankly, Biden’s support of his son’s business by simply appearing in conversations at key moments feels corrupt to me. Alas, that doesn’t seem enough for your investigators.

    There’s no “appearing” to be corrupt. It is defacto corrupt. Hunter having his dad on the phone call with his associates *IS* the deliverable. That shows Hunter’s business associates that they have access to POTUS.

    I’m not sure where you’re going with “Alas, that doesn’t seem enough for your investigators”… GOP Congress has latched on this hard.

    We know the DOJ, itself, won’t investigate because a) DOJ reports to Biden, and b) You cant indict a sitting President.

    So, we’re left with GOP committees having the barest margin of Majority in the house to investigate, hopefully with full impeachment hearings.

    If your party could fall out of love with your desperately corrupt leader, it would have a lot more credibility on all matters Biden. Otherwise, the stink of hypocracy is all over this investigation — and is easy to charactarize as just the usual garbage from Donald and his slander brigade.

    Appalled (03f53c) — 8/21/2023 @ 7:30 am

    I’ve been agitating for a not-Trump candidate for quite a while…

    But, again, don’t ask me to play dumb and NOT be able to separate whatever issues surrounding Trump to Biden’s own problems.

    Trump don’t matter in this conversation.

    I think the “but Trump” you exhibit is simply a reflection that you DON’T want to acknowledge that our current President is corrupt via Hunter’s bagman activities so that you don’t want to be part of any effort to “paper over” Trump’s own issues.

    So, you’d rather bury you head in the sand.

    All you need to do is brush the sand out of your eyes… and simply look.

    whembly (5f7596)

  81. If

    the Steele document was enough to open up an investigation into an active political campaign and following active administration, that which eventually lead to a Special Counsel on the barest, flimsiest predicate

    This isn’t accurate. There were multiple predicates for investigating the Trump campaigns involvement in Russia’s hack of the DNC server and the special counsel was appointed after Trump said he fired the head of the FBI to stop the investigation.

    Hunter is clearly corrupt and Joe clearly tolerated it, at best.

    Time123 (53d999)

  82. Time continuing to rehash the past rather than focus on the present.

    The current administration is abusing it’s power and that is spitting in the face of the law and Americans that are currently under its thumb.

    No amount of whataboutism is going to hide that fact from all except the true believers.

    NJRob (bd6e37)

  83. Whembly, It may not have been access to VPOTUS. It may have been having Hunter use that relationship to open lesser doors for them.

    Still very corrupt.

    Time123 (53d999)

  84. NBC News/Des Moines Register/Mediacom Iowa Poll 8/21/23:

    Former President Donald Trump starts out with more than a 20-point lead over nearest rival Ron DeSantis among likely Iowa Republican caucus goers, according to the first 2024 NBC News/Des Moines Register/Mediacom poll conducted by Iowa pollster J. Ann Selzer.
    ………..
    In the poll, 42% of likely Republican caucus goers say Trump is their first choice out of 14 GOP presidential candidates, while 19% pick DeSantis, the governor of Florida.

    They’re followed by Scott, at 9%; former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley and former Vice President Mike Pence, both at 6%; former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie at 5%; and entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy at 4%.
    ………
    Trump leads DeSantis among self-identified Republican caucusgoers (51% to 20%), among first-time caucugsoers (47% to 18%) and among evangelical Christians (47% to 20%)
    ………
    Dennis McLaughlin, 54, whose first choice is Scott and second pick is DeSantis, added, “I’m looking for somebody who’s reliably conservative, has a track record of it — and isn’t certifiably insane.”
    ………
    ………(A) majority of Republican caucus goers in Iowa — 52% — say their minds aren’t made up, and they could be persuaded to support another candidate.
    ………
    Two-thirds of caucus goers who support Trump as their first-choice candidate say their minds are made up, versus just one-third who say the same of their support for DeSantis.

    The (poll) also finds that 65% of likely Republican caucus goers don’t think Trump has committed serious crimes……
    ………
    According to the survey’s interviews from Aug. 13-14, Trump’s advantage over DeSantis was 18 points, 38% to 20%.

    But his edge increased to 25 points in the interviews conducted after the indictment, 43% to 18%.

    Fully 65% of likely Republican caucusgoers say a presidential candidate who comes closest to them on the issues is more important to them, versus 29% who say they prize more the candidate with the best chance of beating President Joe Biden in November 2024.

    Trump’s favorability rating among likely GOP caucus goers is 65% favorable, 33% unfavorable……
    ………

    Despite the fact that over half of caucus goers say their minds haven’t been made up, Trump can still win since the undecides will probably fracture among the Lilliputians.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  85. Despite the fact that over half of caucus goers say their minds haven’t been made up, Trump can still win since the undecides will probably fracture among the Lilliputians.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/21/2023 @ 9:56 am

    Sorry for the formatting error. The above comment is my own.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  86. What do the British bettors think?

    That Trump currently has a 70 percent chance of winning the nomination:

    Mike Smithson, who runs the Political Betting site thinks those odds are too high:

    The latest betting exchange odds on Trump being the WH2024 GOP nominee rate Trump as about a 70% chance. To me this sounds to be on the high side given the mounting criminal indictments he is facing and a new factor highlighted in the YouTube video linked to above.

    This is because someone who did what he did on January 6th 2021 cannot in good faith take the oath of office if he did get re-elected.

    I often find the discussions at Poltical Betting interesting, though some of the regulars have pictures of American politics much like the pictures you get from fun house mirrors.

    (I should add the discussions often don’t stick to the topic for long.)

    Jim Miller (ea859e)

  87. @83

    This isn’t accurate. There were multiple predicates for investigating the Trump campaigns involvement in Russia’s hack of the DNC server and the special counsel was appointed after Trump said he fired the head of the FBI to stop the investigation.

    Hunter is clearly corrupt and Joe clearly tolerated it, at best.

    Time123 (53d999) — 8/21/2023 @ 9:40 am

    No, I disagree Time.

    The “predicate” for all those investigations are so minute, that’s it’s equivalent to “breathing”. All that means, is that it doesn’t take much to open up and investigate. The problem with it, was that it was ran by “the 7th Floor”, meaning, it was orchestrated by political appointees. There was no “leadership” to act in as a check against over-zealous investigations, as it was the 7th Floor doing the investigation.

    Trump has every power and right to stop any investigation and every power right to fire Comey. None of which should’ve spawned a Special Counsel. The check against an abusive POTUS actions, if you believed it so, is either in courts, or power of the purse of Congress, the ballot box and impeachments.

    The Biden’s had/has evidence that is liked getting hit in the face. It’s indisputable. But, you and every other critic are refusing to approach the Biden’s with the same zeal as you did against Trump.

    THAT, my friend, is very troubling. THAT, is how you get the sentiments of two-tiers of justice, no matter if that sentiments is justified or not.

    whembly (5f7596)

  88. This is because someone who did what he did on January 6th 2021 cannot in good faith take the oath of office if he did get re-elected.

    (I should add the discussions often don’t stick to the topic for long.)

    Jim Miller (ea859e) — 8/21/2023 @ 10:11 am

    As if good faith would stop Trump from swearing fidelity to the Constitution. If only someone who swore in bad faith would burst into flames.

    Discussions here also veer off the subject frequently, but that can be a feature, not a bug. 😉

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  89. The current administration is abusing it’s power and that is spitting in the face of the law and Americans that are currently under its thumb.

    You could say Trump did that too by trying to overturn a legitimate election and calling on his followers to march to the Capitol on his behalf, intimidating poll workers, etc., etc. I think a lot of us are not so much looking back but are rather focused on the here and now as Trump is being held accountable in the courts for his actions. Consequences don’t always happen immediately after an event.

    Dana (169625)

  90. @85

    Whembly, It may not have been access to VPOTUS. It may have been having Hunter use that relationship to open lesser doors for them.

    Still very corrupt.

    Time123 (53d999) — 8/21/2023 @ 9:53 am

    Yeah no.

    1) Simply look at Hunter’s Burisma activities WHILE Biden was VP.

    Corrupt to the core.

    2) Simply look at Hunter’s associates with Chinese officials WHILE Biden was VP. Who regularly rode with is dad on AF2 to China.

    Both are corrupt to the core, and even more blatant that the Trumps.

    whembly (5f7596)

  91. House Freedom Caucus rolls out demands to avoid shutdown
    ……….
    The group of roughly three dozen Republican lawmakers said it would oppose any short-term stopgap unless leadership meets a slew of their demands. ……..
    ……..
    In addition to vowing to oppose a so-called clean short-term funding bill, the Freedom Caucus is also planning to vote against any spending legislation that doesn’t meet certain priorities of the party’s right flank. That would mean including, according to the announcement, a sweeping GOP border bill that has stalled in the Senate; addressing “the unprecedented weaponization” of the Justice Department and FBI and ending “woke” Defense Department policies.
    ……..
    The group also said it would oppose a “blank check” for Ukraine after the Biden administration’s new request for billions in additional aid. ……..

    The conservative group, in its statement, said it would “oppose any attempt by Washington to revert to its old playbook of using a series of short-term funding extensions designed to push Congress up against a December deadline to force the passage of yet another monstrous, budget busting, pork filled, lobbyist handout omnibus spending bill at year’s end.”

    And members hinted they would be willing to use procedural votes to prevent a mammoth year-end spending package from coming to the floor at all, saying that they would “use every procedural tool necessary to prevent that outcome.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  92. GOP need to articulate 2 or 3 specifics to extract from Democrats to get their votes.

    Otherwise, it’s just for show.

    Part me of wants the Gaetz and MTG of the world and simply be the holdouts that leads to shutdown. (only way that works if Democrats collectively don’t vote for it…so, has to be over something toxic to them… so, maybe prohibition of Military of paying for out of state abortions. Something like that).

    Let the shutdown…commence!

    whembly (5f7596)

  93. “It’s indisputable.”

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  94. @95 Then you have know concept of what corrupts means.

    Frankly, I think Trump’s support, outside of small hardcore MAGA-ites, is largely a reaction to people like you who ignores democrat’s bad behavior.

    whembly (5f7596)

  95. 88.

    Trump currently has a 70 percent chance of winning the nomination:

    That sounds about right. Not too high, not too low.

    Many people would think 70% is too low, but I think it’s about right. A lot of things could ensue so as to stop him> They are just not that likely. But definitely possible.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  96. 89. Isn’t the 7th floor the command center of the State Department?

    Main Justice has 7 floors, but I don’t know where wither the Attorney General or the Criminal division is.

    The New York Times has a whole story today on the Hunter Biden case. It’s not strictly in chronological order (and their stories never are)
    It also doesn’t tell you the name of the person who quit or was fired right before Weiss started to get tougher on Hunter Biden:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/19/us/politics/inside-hunter-biden-plea-deal.html

    The documents and interviews also show that the relationship between Mr. Biden’s legal team and Mr. Weiss’s office reached a breaking point at a crucial moment after one of his top deputies — who had become a target of the I.R.S. agents and Republican allies — left the team for reasons that remain unclear.

    Someone new was brought in:

    Around this time, [that the whistleblowers came forward] Leo Wise — a senior prosecutor who had spent nearly two decades in the Baltimore U.S. attorney’s office — was quietly transferred to the department’s criminal division, then detailed to Delaware to add legal firepower to the relatively small Delaware office.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  97. The NYT article is kind of fair although it has little inaccuracies:

    Mr. Biden’s foreign business ventures, especially when his father was vice president and later when he was addicted to crack cocaine, had long raised ethical and legal concerns.

    Hunter Biden wasn’t “addicted” to crack only after his father was no longer in office – he was taking cocaine at least as far back as 2013.

    When his father and his brother puled strings to get him into the Navy reserve, he didn’t last because he failed a driug test.

    But this is a fair summary:

    The I.R.S. investigators had given Congress something genuinely new: summaries of WhatsApp messages that appeared to show Hunter Biden involved in a shakedown in which he had invoked his father, firsthand testimony from people who had reviewed Mr. Biden’s finances and the credibility of their long careers at the tax agency.

    The shakedown invoked his father but his father wasn’t necessarily really there. Hunter had every reason to lie sf his father had every reason not to get involved in such things.

    David Weiss did not talk to the NYT, but a lot of other people did. some of whom contradicted things others said.

    Hunter Biden’s lawyers are asking that Justice Department people who leaked be prosecuted (they seem to free to spin)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  98. Whembly, I’m not now, nor have I in the past, denied that Hunter is corrupt. Also, I’m happy that this investigation continue and look forward to what we will find. At this point the evidence seems to supprt that Hunter was corrupt and Biden allowed it. Looking forward to evidence of corrupt actions by Joe.

    Disagree with you about investigating Trump / Russia. There was plenty of evidence at the time to support a reasonable suspicion.

    Also, he wasn’t just shutting down the investigation of his campaign. He was shutting down the investigation of Russian criminal interference. The DNC was hacked. A crime had been committed that merited investigation.

    Time123 (d25545)

  99. On the “Trump has Fans” thread, someone reposted a transcript from James Comey’s very smug “buy my book” tour. I’ll toss Comey a bone here because he was pitching his book to Trump haters and Comey read the audience well and threw the red meat- to make a buck. I’d suggest listening to the audio rather than reading the transcript. Comey, the interviewer, and the audience ooze smug condescension. When I first heard that interview I thought of the Strzok-Page texts and thought wow. There is now an even larger group who have more reasons now to be convinced the FBI and DoJ were out to get Trump the minute the results were in. Comey came off like everything he did was motivated by his desire for the best for the USA, but then they got to listen to the smug laughter of Comey and his audience while Comey was grubbing for money at a book signing. Comey’s words, actions, and tone set a narrative in stone in many more minds than before.

    Many of the great stories told over and over and over through history are of people ground up by the insatiable beast of rulership and Comey brought the red meat.
    Hollywood gave us the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Braveheart etc. Religion gives us martyrs who die for you down to the level of the immortal soul. People like Comey did not make Trump a martyr, but they sure to make it easy for Trump to act like he is one. Trump does not have to cross a high bar standard or be Rumpelstiltskin spinning straw into gold for the peoples first born child, Trump only has to take the ground red meat people who hate him have been bringing to the party every day for 3 years and make hamburgers.

    Now I think it is too late. The Democrats used Trump and Never Trump to splinter the GOP, insisted the GOP run “purity from Trump stink” on all its candidates and now I think it is inevitable that Biden’s 2024 VP candidate, or someone like Gavin Newsom will be elected. Most of this is Trump fault for intentionally being so divisive and selfish but GOP and neverTrump did put all their eggs into this Justice system basket and that gambit looks like it not only failed to contain or eliminate Trump before the election, it made him stronger. There is no longer any doubt in my mind that Trump will be on the ballot in 2024 even if his name has to be handwritten on to it. If Trump has to go write-in he may set a write in record, certainly drawing enough votes away from the GOP candidate in Electoral College swing states for the Democrats to win.

    steveg (b6fcc8)

  100. “Frankly, I think Trump’s support, outside of small hardcore MAGA-ites, is largely a reaction to people like you who ignores democrat’s bad behavior.”

    There’s no evidence that Joe Biden took money as part of some sort of shakedown. The fact that some people want it to be true does not make it true. Maybe there is the appearance of corruption. Maybe Joe being at meetings becomes circumstantial evidence, but does it prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed extortion? No. A prosecutor could face great criticism for bringing such a weak case. If dumb people want to use that reasoning to vote for Trump then we deserve what we get.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  101. Hunter’s corruption seems pretty clear to me. If he’d take the usual steps to start /join a law, consulting, or lobbying firm he’d have the usual fig leaf. But he didn’t so it’s very clear. “Indisputable” seems like a reasonable adjective.

    Time123 (d25545)

  102. This candidates certainly isn’t boring.

    MEXICO CITY — Xóchitl Gálvez is a Mexican original. She’s a radiant, broad-faced Indigenous woman who grew up in extreme poverty, studied math over the protests of her abusive, alcoholic father, and battled her way to building a prosperous tech company and becoming a senator. Now she is rocking Mexican politics.

    Gálvez is the leading opposition candidate running to succeed President Andrés Manuel López Obrador. Clothed in a simple embroidered dress during an interview here, she is by turns funny, profane and inspiring. As she explains how she battled off an attacker as a girl in the barrios, you can see why the populist autocrat López Obrador seems worried about her.

    Jim Miller (0ff13d)

  103. AJ, I agree that there isn’t evidence of a criminal act by joe.

    But it strains credulity to asset he was unaware of what his son was doing; trading on his name and proximity to power to make money.

    Hunters corrupt, Joe almost certainly knew. They’re both corrupt to different degrees. But neither isn’t corrupt.

    How corrupt / acceptable you find what Joe did will vary. I think it’s sadly common for the family of elected officials to trade on their family name like this. So even if you think Joes corruption was of the common place variety it’s still not honest.

    Time123 (d25545)

  104. As I’ve said before, Biden is horrible and only won because he was running against Trump. Had he run unopposed he’d have lost.

    Time123 (d25545)

  105. Forgot to say that I think there is a 66%-34% chance that as soon as the Democrats win in 2024, they will find a way in early 2025 to settle for a Trump a slap on the wrist for one of the more minor charges because they got what they wanted, which was a 2024 win. I’d be happy to be wrong, but am cynical

    steveg (b6fcc8)

  106. I’d be happy to accept a slap on the wrist for Trump if it came with a clear and public confession and retraction of his lies about the 2020 election.

    Time123 (d25545)

  107. whembly,

    James Comer has no evidence that Joe Biden took bribes. But he wants to insinuate he did, and he comes back to Burisma and the whole Ukraine thing:

    “Every day this bribery scandal becomes more credible. I mean look at what Devon Archer testified today. [Archer] said that Joe Biden was on the phone over 20 times with people, talking about whatever, even though the president denied that he never spoke to any of these people.

    “He also said that Hunter Biden was under immense pressure while they both served on the Burisma board to call Washington, D.C. immediately and try to get Shokin fired. That’s the Ukrainian prosecutor. Not many days later, Joe Biden traveled to Ukraine, and we’ve all seen the video where Joe Biden brags about withholding foreign aid to Ukraine in exchange for the Ukrainian president firing the prosecutor who was investigating his son’s corrupt energy company.”

    https://comer.house.gov/2023/8/icymi-comer-on-hannity-archer-confirms-joe-biden-lied-when-he-denied-knowledge-of-hunter-biden-business-dealings

    “Let’s be clear: the Department of Justice’s charges against President Biden’s son Hunter reveal a two-tiered system of justice. Hunter Biden is getting away with a slap on the wrist when growing evidence uncovered by the House Oversight Committee reveals the Bidens engaged in a pattern of corruption, influence peddling, and possibly bribery. These charges against Hunter Biden and sweetheart plea deal have no impact on the Oversight Committee’s investigation. We will not rest until the full extent of President Biden’s involvement in the family’s schemes are revealed.”

    https://comer.house.gov/2023/6/comer-oversight-committee-s-investigation-into-the-bidens-influence-peddling-continues

    Because Comer goes for the most drastic charge available, he diminishes his credibility on what he can prove. It’s par for the course in MAGA-world.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  108. Time, I agree that Biden likely knew that Hunter was monetizing the Biden name….at minimum. The ethical standard should be not even the appearance of influence peddling. So Biden should have stepped aside and let someone else take the lead on Ukraine…though I don’t think Biden did anything wrong with Burisma. He should also have had an impenetrable wall between himself and Hunter’s business associates to disabuse any notion of influence generally.

    So what does a voter do with that? Some here will conclude, well, if they are both corrupt, that inoculates my support for the one that I at least agree with on policies. The problem is that Trump has his own conflict of interest problems with Jared Kushner and Saudi money, except with a few more zeros on the dollar amounts. It’s interesting that our corruption detectives see no problem there.

    The tie break comes down to who lied and tried to cheat the election…and who refused to turn over classified documents when asked…and who generally weakens our rule of law. Biden is awful…except when put next to Trump. I won’t vote for Biden, but can understand independents who would conclude that he is in fact the lesser of two evils. If that analysis drives up Trump’s GOP support, so be it. Indictment (and potentially conviction) trumps the possibility of some corruption. This isn’t hard…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  109. 103. Time123 (d25545) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:36.

    Hunter’s corruption seems pretty clear to me. If he’d take[n] the usual steps to start /join a law, consulting, or lobbying firm he’d have the usual fig leaf. But he didn’t so it’s very clear.

    Actually, Hunter did join a law firm, although he didn’t do any work himself, and the firm charged Burisma.

    That has emerged only as a slight addition to the news coverage.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/analysis-hunter-bidens-hard-drive-shows-firm-took-11-million-2013-2018-rcna29462

    Analysis of Hunter Biden’s hard drive shows he, his firm took in about $11 million from 2013 to 2018, spent it fast

    The hard drive and documents from Senate Republicans indicate few of Biden’s deals ever came to fruition and shed light on how fast he was spending his money.

    ….In his book, Biden describes the efforts he made before he took the Burisma job to be sure the company was ethical, as well as steps he didn’t take. He read a report from a corporate investigations firm called Kroll, which gave the company a clean bill of health, but he was “concerned” that the report was a year and a half old. He wrote that his law firm then commissioned its own study and that Burisma “checked all the important boxes.” His law firm recommended that Burisma impose still stricter ethical guidelines, and it was Biden’s job to implement them.

    , IIRC, Hunter Biden was ostensibly hired, and/or put on the board, as an expert on corporate governance.

    According to Biden, neither of the investigating firms knew of the probe into Burisma’s top executive. Biden said the U.K. unfroze the executive’s U.K. assets in early 2015 and dropped the case in 2018.

    Biden also said, “I did not drill down to determine whether or not [Mykola] Zlochevsky acquired his wealth fairly during the decades of kleptocracy and corruption that dated back to when Ukraine was a former republic of the Soviet Union.”

    That was before he had a chance to make a lot oi money. There may have been some criminal activity in Soviet days but most of the corrupt money was made by people after 1991 (possibly relying on prior contacts)

    I think Hunter is misleading people by tracing it back to before 1991.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  110. I’d be happy to accept a slap on the wrist for Trump if it came with a clear and public confession and retraction of his lies about the 2020 election.

    Time123 (d25545) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:50 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  111. GOP need to articulate 2 or 3 specifics to extract from Democrats to get their votes.

    Not the Democrats problem. The Republicans are in the majority, let them figure it out. If McCarthy makes a deal with the Democrats, he kiss his speakership goodbye.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  112. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 8/21/2023 @ 1:28 pm

    So Biden should have stepped aside and let someone else take the lead on Ukraine…

    I think Joe Biden may be the only source that he did take the lead on Ukraine.

    It was part of his tall tale on he was instrumental in firing the prosecutor, using his vice-presidential super powers.

    though I don’t think Biden did anything wrong with Burisma. He should also have had an impenetrable wall between himself and Hunter’s business associates to disabuse any notion of influence generally.

    He was told by George P. Kent (now silenced by his job as as Ambassador to Estonia) who was deputy political counselor
    and later deputy chief of mission in Kyiv, Ukraine, from 2015 to 2018, that Hunter’s presence on the board of Burisma was interfering with U.S. efforts to combat corruption (because it made it look like the United States government had been bought off. What was important was the appearance of corruption by people in Ukraine.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/diplomat-tells-investigators-he-raised-alarms-in-2015-about-hunter-bidens-ukraine-work-but-was-rebuffed/2019/10/18/81e35be9-4f5a-4048-8520-0baabb18ab63_story.html

    Diplomat tells investigators he raised alarms in 2015 about Hunter Biden’s Ukraine work but was rebuffed

    By John Hudson, Rachael Bade and Matt Viser
    October 18, 2019 at 7:44 a.m. EDT

    Of course, what Trump did was more serious.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  113. Trump’s bond in Georgia election interference case set at $200,000

    ………
    Under the terms of the “consent bond order” filed in court Monday afternoon, Trump agreed to the bond amount on charges that include racketeering, criminal conspiracy, criminal solicitation, filing false documents and making false statements.

    The order was signed off on by Superior Court Judge Scott McAfee. The order, which was signed by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis and Trump’s attorneys, says that Trump “shall perform no act to intimidate any person known to him or her to be a codefendant or witness in this case or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice.”

    It also says the “Defendant shall make no direct or indirect threat of any nature against the community or to any property in the community; The above shall include, but are not limited to, posts on social media or reposts of posts made by another individual on social media.”
    ………
    John Eastman, the lawyer charged with helping to orchestrate Trump’s fake elector scheme, agreed to a $100,000 bond in the case on the charges including racketeering, criminal conspiracy and filing false documents.
    ………
    Under the terms of his order, Eastman “shall report to pre-trial supervision every 30 days,” and “shall perform no act to intimidate any person known to him or her to be a codefendant or witness in this case or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice.”

    The order also holds that Eastman “shall not communicate in any way, directly or indirectly, about the facts of this case with any person known to him to be a codefendant” or witness “in this case except through his or her counsel” — conditions Trump also agreed to.
    ……….
    Another architect of the electors scheme named as a defendant in the case, lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, struck a similar deal, agreeing to a $100,000 bond.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  114. I’d be happy to accept a slap on the wrist for Trump if it came with a clear and public confession and retraction of his lies about the 2020 election.

    Time123 (d25545) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:50 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/21/2023 @ 1:33 pm

    That’s never going to happen.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  115. I’d be happy to accept a slap on the wrist for Trump if it came with a clear and public confession and retraction of his lies about the 2020 election.

    Time123 (d25545) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:50 pm

    It’s a plausible tactic to destroy his political career.

    The Turkish Sultan pardoned the false Messiah, Shabbati Zevi (in Hebrew as pronounced by Askenazic Jewry Shabsei Tzvi) on the condition he converted to Islam. That destroyed the movement. There can’t be anything more antithetical to Judaism than that.

    . The kaymakam informed Sultan Mehmed IV and Sabbatai was removed from Abydos and taken to Adrianople,[9] where the vizier gave him three choices; subject himself to a trial of his divinity in the form of a volley of arrows (should the archers miss, his divinity would be proven); be impaled; or convert to Islam.[16]

    On the following day (September 16, 1666) Zevi appeared before the sultan, cast off his Jewish garb and put a Turkish turban on his head, thereby accomplishing his conversion to Islam. Satisfied, the sultan rewarded Sabbatai by conferring on him the title (Mahmed) Effendi, and appointing him as his doorkeeper on a generous salary. Sarah and approximately 300 families among his followers also converted to Islam. Thereafter these new Muslims were known as Dönme.[7] Sabbatai was ordered to take a second wife to confirm his conversion. Some days afterwards, he wrote to the community in Smyrna: “God has made me an Ishmaelite; He commanded, and it was done. The ninth day of my regeneration.”[9]

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  116. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/21/2023 @ 1:44 pm

    Trump bond order.

    Eastman bond order.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  117. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9hc7IRfFIBQ

    George Kent appeared but only under subpoena.

    The first thing Giuliani did was cause the Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch to be removed (that didn’t help Putin) The second thing was cause people to be excluded from Zelensky’s government. The third thing was he was supplied with Biden’s statement in the Q&A portion of his speech to the Council on Foreign Relations the about firing the prosecutor, which was given a twist by Giulani’s sources

    All that Putin got for that was a 55-day suspension of aid to Ukraine.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  118. I see that if any of the charges against Trump are dropped or dismissed, his bail gets lowered. All but one carried $10,000 bail.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  119. 4732 children were killed by fire arms last year (record high)

    asset (43335f)

  120. @109

    whembly,

    James Comer has no evidence that Joe Biden took bribes.

    Appalled (03f53c) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:54 pm

    Does it change your calculous that the Biden’s shared at least one bank account?

    Recall, that the abandoned Hunter laptop revealed correspondence that they both shared at least one bank account and paid each other’s bills.

    If Hunter’s proceed from his business flowed into those shared accounts, Joe Biden is corruptly involved.

    You’re looking for something that amounts to a check from Xi with Biden’s name on it with a note that says “for our deals”. You are setting an dumb threshold and you’re asking everyone you respond to play dumb.

    I’m done.

    whembly (5f7596)

  121. @100

    Whembly, I’m not now, nor have I in the past, denied that Hunter is corrupt. Also, I’m happy that this investigation continue and look forward to what we will find. At this point the evidence seems to supprt that Hunter was corrupt and Biden allowed it. Looking forward to evidence of corrupt actions by Joe.

    Unfortunately, the only way we’d see corruption from Joe, is if the House starts impeachment hearings. Outside of that, good luck.

    Disagree with you about investigating Trump / Russia. There was plenty of evidence at the time to support a reasonable suspicion.

    Also, he wasn’t just shutting down the investigation of his campaign. He was shutting down the investigation of Russian criminal interference. The DNC was hacked. A crime had been committed that merited investigation.

    Time123 (d25545) — 8/21/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    I don’t disagree with them opening the investigation, Time.

    What I disagree with you, it seems, is that they keep looking for something that wasn’t there. There were several career investigators wanting to close the investigation, but the political leadership wanted to keep it open, and it was used to ‘politically’ damn the Trump administration.

    In short, the DOJ went political.

    whembly (5f7596)

  122. @122

    4732 children were killed by fire arms last year (record high)

    asset (43335f) — 8/21/2023 @ 2:14 pm

    And?

    whembly (5f7596)

  123. Does it change your calculous that the Biden’s shared at least one bank account?

    Is there actual evidence of that?

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  124. whembly (5f7596) — 8/21/2023 @ 2:16 pm

    Does it change your calculous that the Biden’s shared at least one bank account?

    That information appears to date from about 2010.

    It is not sharing any bank account, I think, but using the same person to manage both their accounts and him sometimes using Hunter’s account to pay Joe’s bills (maybe repaying it)

    It’s been pointed out that for someone of Biden’s age, giving money to his family members is a lot like giving money to the person himself.

    Here’s an interesting thing that came u (I only read of it secondhand)

    Back around 1995, Joe apparently got Hunter a job with a credit card company that Hunter used, not only to pay his student loans, but to also pay his older brother’s student loans also!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/25/us/politics/25biden.html

    During the years that Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. was helping the credit card industry win passage of a law making it harder for consumers to file for bankruptcy protection, his son had a consulting agreement that lasted five years with one of the largest companies pushing for the changes, aides to Senator Barack Obama’s presidential campaign acknowledged Sunday.

    Mr. Biden’s son, Hunter, received consulting fees from the MBNA Corporation from 2001 to 2005 for work on online banking issues. Aides to Mr. Obama, who chose Mr. Biden as his vice-presidential running mate on Saturday, would not say how much the younger Mr. Biden, who works as both a lawyer and lobbyist in Washington, had received, though a company official had once described him as having a $100,000 a year retainer. But Obama aides said he had never lobbied for MBNA and that there was nothing improper about the payments….

    The financial services industry began seeking relief from Congress in the mid-1990s from an increase in bankruptcies that was cutting into its profits. Its initial support came from Republican lawmakers, who repeatedly introduced bills to make it more difficult for consumers to erase their debts. During that time, executives at MBNA, which was bought in 2006 by Bank of America, began donating heavily to both major political parties and many national politicians, including Mr. Biden.

    In late 1996, the company hired the younger of Mr. Biden’s two sons, Robert Hunter Biden, known as Hunter, who had just graduated from Yale Law School, as a lawyer. The company promoted Mr. Biden to senior vice president by early 1998. And after the younger Mr. Biden worked at the Commerce Department on electronic commerce issues from 1998 to 2001, MBNA hired him back on a monthly consulting contract to advise it on such issues, aides said.

    Consumer advocates say that Senator Biden was one of the first Democratic leaders to support the bankruptcy bill, and he voted for it four times — in 1998, 2000, 2001 and in March 2005, when its final version passed the Senate by a vote of 74 to 25.

    Recently there has been something about Hunter paying off his brothers student loans.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  125. Whembly,

    So Comer is ignoring evidence to prove the point that he wants to insinuate? Why? He hasn’t got to it yet? Or is the laptop data possibly suspect?

    Engage, my friend. Don’t just be annoyed that someone doesn’t see things the way you do.

    In the meantime, I will be looking up your stuff.

    Appalled (6c67af)

  126. David Weiss’s career (including a murder case he had a role in getting a conviction)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/20/hunter-biden-david-weiss-special-prosecutor-delaware

    Ostrander said he soon came to Weiss to ask that he represent the family of a woman who had gone missing in 1996 and, it was feared, had been murdered. Weiss agreed to advise the family as the criminal case unfolded in a federal courtroom in Delaware. As the case developed, it opened a window into the seamy upper echelons of Delaware politics, which Weiss navigated for years in the public spotlight.

    The missing woman was Anne Marie Fahey, the 30-year-old scheduling secretary to Gov. Thomas R. Carper (D). The suspected killer was Thomas Joseph Capano, a Democrat who had been chief counsel to Gov. Michael N. Castle (R). Prosecutors alleged Capano had an affair with Fahey, killed her and dumped her body in the ocean.

    In his role as the Fahey family attorney, Weiss acted as a liaison with federal authorities in the case and, as he later put it in a Senate questionnaire, served “to shadow the government’s investigation” and help the family “navigate the substantial media attention.”

    As the sensational case attracted national attention, he challenged Capano “to come in and talk to the authorities,” and frequently appeared on the federal courthouse steps in Wilmington to talk to the press, according to “And Never Let Her Go,” a book on the case. Capano was convicted of first-degree murder in 1999.

    “We could not have gotten through it without David’s leadership,” said Kathleen Fahey, Anne Marie’s sister….

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  127. If McCarthy makes a deal with the Democrats, he kiss his speakership goodbye.

    There are few who could replace him. There’s maybe 10 who would vote against him, but about 200 Republicans would not vote for who those 10 want.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  128. A Russian space =probe crashed into the moon. hey cant do what they in 1976,

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  129. 122 In the USA?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  130. Both are corrupt to the core, and even more blatant that the Trumps.

    I would really like to see what trades Mr Kushner made, compared to news the next day out of the White House.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  131. Y’all want so desperately to insinuate that Joe Biden was taking bribes (preferably from Burisma, so that Trump’s actions in the first impeachment can be papered over), that you lose credibility.

    Consider it possible that Trump was out over HIS skis. It’s not like he’s a detail kind of guy. Someone may have told him about Hunter, Burisma and Ukrainian officials and he gave it the same kind of due diligence that Hillary’s minions gave the Steele Dossier (none to speak of).

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  132. I’ve always thought that the first Trump impeachment was weak, and mostly informed by a visceral dislike of Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  133. What do the British bettors think?

    That Trump currently has a 70 percent chance of winning the nomination:

    I take this as good news. I thought it was higher.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  134. I’ve always thought that the first Trump impeachment was weak, and mostly informed by a visceral dislike of Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/21/2023 @ 2:49 pm

    Not me. “We need you to do us a favor, though.” THAT is a shakedown.

    Nice little country you have there. Please give me a stick with which I can beat Joe Biden.

    norcal (49c57f)

  135. Enemy of the People Mainstream Media has got the Luna-25 story all wrong.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  136. And if saying that people argue that Jesus wanted high taxes is stupid, why did you say pretty much that, or words to that effect, in this very thread?:

    Because a number of lefties, including asset here, have made that claim (fuzzing it up some to imply that advocating charity is the same as forcing charity).

    So your anecdotes excuse you doing it, but mine don’t? Either the thing you called stupid was stupid when both of us did it or neither. I don’t really care which one. You just can’t have it both ways.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  137. There are few who could replace him. There’s maybe 10 who would vote against him, but about 200 Republicans would not vote for who those 10 want.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/21/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    I can think of two right off the top who could be compromise candidates: Steve Scalise or Jim Jordan. At least half of this group would vote against McCarthy-that’s 22 votes right there. And no Democrat would support him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  138. Better link to House Freedom Caucus membership.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  139. So your anecdotes excuse you doing it, but mine don’t? Either the thing you called stupid was stupid when both of us did it or neither. I don’t really care which one. You just can’t have it both ways

    Keep digging.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  140. Steve Scalise or Jim Jordan

    Perhaps Scalise, but Jordan is a crazy person.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  141. The House Freedom Caucus is a pack of nutters.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  142. Yes, yes, the Republicans should shut down the government and absolutely not send old people their Social Security or give the military their pay and promotions. That will show those RINO, Trump-hating, China-loving, Koch Brothers, Deep State elites.

    nk (fa8f0a)

  143. Keep digging.

    I’m digging? Lol.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  144. Vivek Ramaswamy, 1/6 and 9/11 Truther:

    ………
    In an interview with the Atlantic, the GOP presidential candidate spontaneously turned to the subject during an exchange about whether Americans know the “truth about what really happened” during the January 6 assault on the Capitol.

    “I don’t know, but we can handle it,” said Ramaswamy. “Whatever it is, we can handle it. Government agents. How many government agents were in the field? Right?”
    ………..
    “I think it is legitimate to say how many police, how many federal agents, were on the planes that hit the Twin Towers,” he said. “Maybe the answer is zero. It probably is zero for all I know, right?”

    “I have no reason to think it was anything other than zero. But if we’re doing a comprehensive assessment of what happened on 9/11, we have a 9/11 commission, absolutely that should be an answer the public knows the answer to,” he continued. ……
    ……..
    “I am not questioning what we — this is not something I’m staking anything out on,” he said. “But I want the truth about 9/11.”
    ………..
    The GOP candidate has previously made clear he does “not believe everything the government has told us about that day” and pointed to evidence of Saudi involvement in the attack.
    ……….
    While there is some evidence of potential Saudi involvement, there’s no evidence to suggest that federal agents were involved. In the two decades since the attacks, self-proclaimed “truthers” have argued — falsely — that the government was involved or had detailed advance knowledge of impending terrorist attacks.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  145. @125 do you really want that to be your answer on the killing of 4732 children by fire arms?

    asset (553216)

  146. What’s your answer to the killing of 1,000,000 children by abortion?

    nk (6c45b4)

  147. 104, “what is she about?” That’s a 1990s Chicago way of asking what gang you are in? If Bukele is the model, you need a non mestizo or even a non pure Iberian to clean things up down there.

    urbanleftbehind (af5644)

  148. We’re Number Two!, We’re Number Two!

    ………..
    The survey of 1,054 likely South Carolina Primary voters from The Trafalgar Group shows Ron DeSantis and U.S. Sen. Tim Scott tied at 14% each in the Senator’s home state. They are well behind former President Donald Trump’s 48%.

    Others, including former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, are further back. Haley’s 8% puts her in front of former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (7%) and Vivek Ramaswamy (6%). Former Vice President Mike Pence’s 2% leads the rest of the field, none of whom even have 1% support.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  149. RIP John Warnock (82). Co-founder of Adobe Systems and developer of the PDF document format.

    ………..
    In the late 1970s, Warnock moved to Palo Alto, California, to work for Xerox on interactive computer graphics. There, he met Charles Geschke and went to work developing InterPress, a printing and graphics protocol that they were convinced would be the wave of the future. When Xerox balked, they decided to create their own company.

    They founded Adobe in 1982 and created PostScript, a program that helped make small-scale printing feasible for the first time. The company later created the PDF, which let people create electronic versions of documents that could be preserved and sent it to other users, who could search and review them.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  150. @149 they are fetuses not children. Late term abortion is rare ;but if you wish to make the argument that late term abortions should only be done to protect the life of the woman I will gladly listen to your argument. My favorite is the fundo conservative who says abortion is murder ;but oppose welfare as theft and say once your born kid your on your own go live in a garbage dump like they do in catholic latin america.

    asset (394834)

  151. @149 they are fetuses not children.

    “They’re Jews, not people” — Nazi Germany.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  152. @148

    @125 do you really want that to be your answer on the killing of 4732 children by fire arms?

    asset (553216) — 8/21/2023 @ 6:02 pm

    Ok…and?

    Simply throwing out numbers is pointless. I can go to wikipedia for that.

    whembly (5f7596)

  153. @125 do you really want that to be your answer on the killing of 4732 children by fire arms?

    Mostly by other children.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  154. I said I would go looking for some of the material Whembly believes points to Joe Biden taking bribes. I am surprised how difficult it is for someone to right a simple, clean story about this. Part of that may be that the Biden’s family finances are awfully tangled. Part of it may be that those who had access to the Biden laptop have chosen to spin a disconnected story from it. The one here covers the most ground:

    https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/contrary-earlier-portrayals-joe-biden-referred-business

    I read that and have no real understanding of the back and forth movement between Hunter’s accounts and Joe’s (and what was actually shared). What I have mentioned before is that Comer, who I believe has all this stuff, has not been trumpeting any message from the laptop material. Given that the House is anxious to develop an impeachment case against Biden, I don’t see why the links on the laptop have not been developed past the insinuation level.

    Comer has certainly demonstrated three things: (1) Hunter Biden is an influence pedding sleaze; (2) Joe Biden has full knowledge of that and has enabled Hunter’s influence peddling business; and (3) the IRS and DoJ has not prosecuted this as aggressively as one should expect.

    Comer has not proved that Joe Biden took a bribe. We have a maybe that Joe and Hunter may have paid some of each other’s bills. (I don’t see an actual joint checking account — I see a joint account with the cellphone company).

    And when we’re done, I only see one likely Presidential candidate who tried to steal an election. Whembly, I know you are not a Trump supporter. The reality is, though, he will be the candidate and I will vote against him. And that’s true even if Biden did take a bribe.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  155. Part of it may be that those who had access to the Biden laptop have chosen to spin a disconnected story from it

    Part of it may be that peer pressure in the newsroom discourages exposing Democrats. Someone that “gets” Biden is going so see his career top out almost immediately.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  156. Kevin M:

    Fox and the NY Post have professional reporters. But their stories on this are piecemeal or vigorously so-what-ish.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  157. @156

    And when we’re done, I only see one likely Presidential candidate who tried to steal an election. Whembly, I know you are not a Trump supporter. The reality is, though, he will be the candidate and I will vote against him. And that’s true even if Biden did take a bribe.

    Appalled (03f53c) — 8/22/2023 @ 9:08 am

    Cool.

    My calculous is this: Despite the fact that I reject the whole framing of Trump “tried to steal an election”, his behavior was still unacceptable. Compared to Biden, very likely, was involved in corrupt influence peddling that he and his family benefited, I’m going to consider them a “wash” as far as bad deeds go.

    And no, we don’t require a law enforcement/court ruling to make that determination. Political determination should be made outside of ‘law enforcement/court ruling’, because politicians can do a lot of things wrong, but may not necessarily fit a penal violation. (hence while impeachments and contempt of congress is a thing).

    So, I’m just left with which politician is going to advance my preferred policies.

    Because, I refuse to engage in an American Idol competition and vote for a candidate who I personally like.

    I treat politicians like I do to rental cars. I use them to get to point A to point B, and when done, I forget about it.

    whembly (5f7596)

  158. I will vote against him[Trump]. And that’s true even if Biden did take a bribe.

    I am glad this nailbiter has been resolved. I would have never guessed which criminal you preferred but I should have known it was the one that, if true, takes bribes from communist China. As an added bonus he is an open borders and baby killing advocate. But, to quote AJ, his heart is in the right place. ❤️

    BuDuh (3f3b66)

  159. Eastman surrenders in GA, and states that what he and others did was not illegal. I think that this will be the crux of their defense — the state may prove that they committed the alleged acts, but that they were not actually illegal. Criminalizing legal advice and/or acting ON legal advice, isn’t as straightforward as, say, bank robbery.

    Are there laws explicitly referring to falsely claiming to be an Elector? Or is that a political statement that the Congress has the sole power to judge? People have claimed to be elected to Congress and been denied by a vote of the House majority.

    Similarly for the DC charges. The classified papers case is really the only headshot.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  160. Appalled (03f53c) — 8/22/2023 @ 9:08 am

    John Solomon and his Just the News outfit are as pro-Trump as they come (and Solomon was in cahoots with Giuliani in trying to find fraud in Ukraine and was instrumental in the sacking of a US Ambassador there), and there’s nothing about a shared bank account and certainly nothing about Joe getting cash income from Ukraine or China or other foreign entity, but it is weird that Hunter was paying Joe’s phone bills, but it confirm that Joe knew more about Hunter’s business dealings than he let on.

    The NYT mentioned a shared bank account, but concluded that there wasn’t one.

    As vice president, Mr. Biden met regularly with Eric Schwerin, his son’s business manager, including trips to the White House — a pattern that Republicans claim shows an intersection of Hunter’s business with his father.

    But according to family members and former White House officials, Mr. Schwerin did not discuss Hunter’s business activities with the vice president. Having grown close to the Biden family through his long relationship with Hunter, he volunteered to keep track of the elder Mr. Biden’s personal finances and visited him at the White House to make sure he signed important papers, and paid his household bills and taxes on time. (Ethics rules prohibited using White House staff members for those tasks.)

    On occasion, Mr. Schwerin would pay a bill for Vice President Biden out of one of his son’s accounts and then assure that he was repaid. House Republicans have seized on a 2010 email documenting one such transaction to assert that the Bidens shared bank accounts and possibly profits from the younger Mr. Biden’s work abroad.

    But according to Biden family members and business associates, Hunter and his father never had joint bank accounts or direct access to each others’ money. And at the time of the email, Hunter had yet to embark on his foreign deals.

    While looking for stuff on Hunter and Weiss, I found the following, and it only bolsters my initial opinion that someone other than Weiss should be Special Counsel.

    Earlier this year, The Times found, Mr. Weiss appeared willing to forgo any prosecution of Mr. Biden at all, and his office came close to agreeing to end the investigation without requiring a guilty plea on any charges. But the correspondence reveals that his position, relayed through his staff, changed in the spring, around the time a pair of I.R.S. officials on the case accused the Justice Department of hamstringing the investigation. Mr. Weiss suddenly demanded that Mr. Biden plead guilty to committing tax offenses.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  161. So, the argument that Weiss was appointed by Trump doesn’t mean he was a Republican, but that he was a crook?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  162. Still, replacing Weiss would set the investigation back to the beginning, and would likely run out the statute of limitations on some matters.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  163. David Weiss is a Republican, appointed to his US Attorney slot by Trump. He picks the best people, so Trump told me.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  164. John Solomon and his Just the News outfit are as pro-Trump as they come……..

    Solomon was also named by Trump as his liaison to the National Archives and was illegally given access to classified documents without the required security clearances (except those in Trump’s head).

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  165. The “Blame Trump’s Lawyers” Strategy:

    ……….
    “(Former Georgia Republican Party Chair David Shafer) and the other Republican Electors in the 2020 election acted at the direction of the incumbent President and other federal officials,” Shafer’s attorney wrote in a petition seeking to move the Fulton County case to federal court.

    To bolster his proposition, Shafer provided new documents that underscore the Trump campaign’s close involvement in efforts to assemble a group of pro-Trump activists on Dec. 14, 2020 to sign documents claiming to be Georgia’s legitimate presidential electors. Those false electors were later used by Trump allies to attempt to foment a conflict on Jan. 6, 2021 and derail the transfer of power to President Joe Biden.
    ……….
    The filing underscores the tensions likely to manifest among the 19 defendants as the case unfolds and defendants seek to shift culpability to others charged in the alleged conspiracy.

    “[A]n attorney for the President was present at the December 14, 2020 meeting of the presidential electors itself and advised the Presidential Electors, including Mr. Shafer, that performance of their duties was necessary on behalf of the President and the Constitution,” Shafer’s filing noted, identifying (Ray Smith, one of the other defendants charged in the case) as the attorney.
    ……….
    “We’re conducting this because the contest of the election in Georgia is ongoing,” Smith told the group. “And so we continue to contest the election of the electors in Georgia. And so we’re going to conduct this in accordance with the Constitution of the United States and we’re going to conduct the electorate today similar to what happened in 1960 in Hawaii.”

    “And if we did not hold this meeting, then our election contest would effectively be abandoned,” Shafer replied to Smith.

    “That’s correct,” Smith responded.

    Shafer also revealed a Dec. 10, 2020 email he received from Alex Kaufman, a local GOP attorney urging him to push forward with convening the slate of false electors a few days later. Trump-affiliated attorneys Cleta Mitchell, Kurt Hilbert and Smith were copied on the email.

    “I am reconfirming the importance and our collective advice that our slate of delegates meet on December 14th (per the Federal Deadline) and cast their ballots in favor of President Trump,” Kaufman wrote.

    “It is essential that our delegates act and vote in the exact manner as if Governor Kemp has certified the Presidential Contest in favor of President Trump,” Kaufman continued. “ I believe that this is still the most conservative course of action to preserve the best chance for Georgia to ultimately support the President’s reelection.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  166. Guys,

    At this point, I am interested if the documentary stuff these guys assemble support the charge. Accuracy is fight for another day. I would say that the documentary evidence that the Biden’s shared an an account, as proffered by the most anti-Biden source available is confusing, and boils down to one guy paying bills for another and vis versa. The NYT gives a good explanation of why that might be going on.

    Appalled (d106e8)

  167. @166

    David Weiss is a Republican, appointed to his US Attorney slot by Trump. He picks the best people, so Trump told me.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/22/2023 @ 11:25 am

    Don’t forget that the Delaware Senators have a say, and both are far left Democrats, so it’s not like Trump could’ve picked a GOP/Trump friendly prosecutor.

    So that talking point is worth diddly.

    whembly (5f7596)

  168. Blue slips are a toothless courtesy, whembly, and thanks to Grassley and McConnell, they won’t stop a nominee from getting out of committee, especially now that the filibuster is adiosed.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  169. More Voter Fraud:

    ………
    Cuyahoga County (Ohio) Common Pleas Court Judge Andrew Santoli ordered sheriff’s deputies to take James Saunders straight to county jail after finding the 56-year-old guilty of two counts of illegal voting, a fourth-degree felony.

    Santoli held that Saunders cast ballots in both Ohio and Florida in the 2020 presidential election and the 2022 general election. The judge noted that voting records from both states show Saunders also illegally voted twice in the 2014 and 2016 general elections. Prosecutors could not charge him for those votes because the statute of limitations had passed.
    ……..
    Saunders faces any from probation to three years in prison.
    …….
    Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Michael O’Malley said after the hearing that Saunders’ case is the only instance of a person actually voting twice in Cuyahoga County in several years.

    “It appears [Saunders] felt he was smarter than the system,” O’Malley said. “He was wrong.”

    Santoli rejected Saunders’ arguments at trial that he accidentally cast two ballots, did not mean to commit a crime, and that he shouldn’t be prosecuted in Ohio for the vote he cast in Florida.
    ………
    Cellphone tower date placed Saunders’ cellphone at his Virginia address on Nov. 1, 2020, then showed that he drove down to Broward County on Election Day, Nov. 3, 2020, and cast his ballot in-person there.

    In the 2022 general election, Saunders voted by mail in Florida on Nov. 2, 2022, and then voted in person at his precinct in Shaker Heights on Nov. 8, 2022, the witnesses said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  170. See a steel magnolia at work:

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23923832/email-from-fani-willis-to-john-moran.pdf

    I hope Mr Meadows can get down here by Friday, bless his heart.

    Appalled (04e20b)

  171. “Criminalizing legal advice and/or acting ON legal advice, isn’t as straightforward as, say, bank robbery.”

    Presidents put forth executive orders all the time that do not pass constitutional muster: Biden’s private company covid vaccination requirement and Trump’s first Muslim ban come to mind. Those get adjudicated and reversed as required. I would argue that Biden probably knew and got legal advice that the order was likely unconstitutional. The question becomes with Trump is whether there was uncertainty with regards to the Electoral Count Act…and would that uncertainty excuse going forward with the new Electoral Vote slates? And does the flawed reading of the ECA excuse any conspiracy?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  172. And does the flawed reading of the ECA excuse any conspiracy?

    Apparently Congress didn’t share your view that there was a clear reading of the ECA:

    Days before the end of the 117th Congress, an omnibus appropriations bill was signed by President Joe Biden. Included in that 4,000-page spending law was the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022, or ECRA. Hammered out by lawmakers including Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Susan Collins (R-Maine), this bipartisan legislation is intended to provide better guardrails to govern how presidential election results get from the states to the Electoral College process and then to Congress, and how Congress handles them once there.

    According to many, the Electoral Count Act of 1887 was overdue for an overhaul because it did not offer clear guidance on counting electoral votes or how to resolve possible disputes. (History buffs will note that in 1887 Congress created the ECA specifically to preclude problems such as those that arose in the 1876 presidential election of Rutherford B. Hayes from happening again.)

    While legal scholars and politicos have been sounding the alarm for decades that the ECA’s antiquated language was imprecise on the vice president’s role, among other things, most Americans didn’t think twice about the mechanics of selecting a president until 2020. That’s when the nation learned the ECA was open to interpretation, and efforts to clarify its meaning gained steam.

    https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/what-the-electoral-count-reform-act-means-for-states

    The article also has ideas to fix the ECA lack of clarity at the state level as well.

    But Trump….shenanigans..et al…

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  173. John Eastman had an argument that the Electoral Count Act, or at least some of its details, was unconstitutional, but there is an even greater argument that what he proposed to do was blatantly unconstitutional/

    But one thing that is getting lost is that the substitution of electors, which seems to be what both the federal and state election fraud conspiracy charges are resting their cases on, was never actually attempted in the end! (Now the Atlanta case maybe includes some other things.)

    https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-august-13-2023-n1307028

    CHUCK TODD:

    Look, I want to get to the indictment on the former president here and a specific point here having to do with the elector scheme, because earlier this month, you told a colleague of mine here that you didn’t know a lot about the efforts to secure fake electors until after the fact. But it was interesting, in your book, you –

    FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:

    No.

    CHUCK TODD:

    – you brought up the fake slate of electors in a meeting with the Senate parliamentarian on January 3rd. In your book, you said this, “I asked her a direct question,” referring to the Senate parliamentarian. “‘Are there any alternate electors from any state?’ She told me there were not. I mentioned that I had heard that some alternate electors had been sent from several of the disputed states.” So, this was on January 3rd. What can you tell us about what you knew about this elector scheme on January 3rd that prompted you to ask this question?

    FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:

    I just heard what was being talked about in the press at the time, Chuck, but I thought it was important….

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mike-pence-face-the-nation-aug-6-2023-transcript

    MAJOR GARRETT: So I want to ask you about characterizations that have been made by those who speak on behalf of the president’s legal team. They’ve said this week that all they asked of you, that is to say the president, was to delay the proceedings to allow states to conduct an audit. Is that a truthful representation of what you were asked to do, Mr. Vice President?

    FORMER VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: Major, that’s not what happened. And, you know, as I wrote about in my book, as I’ve spoken about very openly, and- and frankly, as is recounted in aspects of the pleadings that were filed this week. From-from sometime in the middle of December, the president began to be told that I had some authority to reject or return votes back to the states. I had no such authority. No vice president in American history had ever asserted that authority and no one ever should. Your viewers can go to Article II of the Constitution and see that it’s very clear. It says that the vice president, as president of the Senate, should preside over the House and Senate in a joint session, and that the Electoral College votes shall be opened and shall be counted. There was no discretion ever given to the vice president in history, nor should there ever be. I had no right to overturn the election and Kamala Harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat them in 2024. But look, I- I- I stand by the facts as they occurred. I mean, it ebbed and flowed between different legal theories, but at the end of the day, I know we did our duty. I know we kept our oath. But I- I truly do believe that, you know, no one who ever puts himself over the Constitution should ever be president of the United States. I mean, our Constitution is more important than any one man and our country is more important than any one man’s career….

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  174. The false electors charge is, like preparing a fraudulent tax return that was never filed.

    Even if some other fraudulent tax return, with slightly different premises was prepared (but not signed by the accountant who was needed to sign it)

    The substitute electors was one of several invalid legal theories Eastman and other gamed out.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  175. 172. It’s a violation of state law. Not federal. The state of Ohio could actually have permitted this if it wanted to, especially in presidential elections, although the double voter would also have to contend with what Florida law said.

    The Supreme Court has said that states can require up to 30 days to change state of residence.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  176. ow we ended up with these two jamokes leading our two biggest parties is beyond mortal comprehension.

    Campaign finance regulation, plus Buckley v. Valeo for Trump.

    There are too few candidates, and no new candidates can effectively enter once the campaigns get seriously under way.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  177. @171

    Blue slips are a toothless courtesy, whembly, and thanks to Grassley and McConnell, they won’t stop a nominee from getting out of committee, especially now that the filibuster is adiosed.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/22/2023 @ 1:33 pm

    Nope. Blue slips can still slow/stop down the nomination if one Senator objects.

    What you’re referring to is that Grassley and McConnell did away with blue slips for Appellate Court nominations.

    Blue slips are still very much en vogue for Federal Presecutors.

    whembly (5f7596)

  178. The Fulton County trial will be televised. Good.
    Now if Cannon and Chutkan can do the same.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  179. 162. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/22/2023 @ 10:35 am

    Are there laws explicitly referring to falsely claiming to be an Elector?

    Probably not, but in a case nobody ever formally did and I didn’t hear or read anything about the false electors being indicted.

    You can claim that they whole thing was part of a broader scheme to steal the election under color of law.

    https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/column-trump-criminal-charges-go-heart-kkk-act-2023-08-07

    Trump is charged under Section 241, which is part of a series of statutes known as the Enforcement Acts (also referred to as the KKK Acts), that were enacted in 1870-1871 to protect newly freed Black Americans and their allies from “conspiracies against civil rights.”

    That broad term is meant to capture the various, creative mechanisms that can be used to suppress fundamental rights, from going “in disguise on the highway” with hoods and guns — the statute’s explicit reference to the KKK’s terror tactics — to more sophisticated, non-violent forms of oppression….

    ….Prosecutions of conspiracies against “the right to have one’s vote counted” fairly were permitted under Section 241 as early as 1915. In United States v. Mosley, the U.S. Supreme Court found that the law allowed the indictment of county election board members in Oklahoma who agreed to omit votes from certain precincts from their count.

    In 2014, the former mayor of Martin, Kentucky, was convicted of a conspiracy under section 241 for buying votes and threatening people with eviction to gain their support in her reelection campaign. And, more recently, a social media influencer named Douglass Mackey was convicted in March under the statute for misleading Black voters about how to cast their ballots in the 2016 election.

    In short, the Reconstruction-era laws Trump was charged under prohibit a wide range of conspiracies against rights — but they’re concerned, first and foremost, with exactly the sort of scheme to suppress voting rights that Trump apparently pursued.

    It would still be very novel to apply this to the gaming out of various legal approaches.

    it ebbed and flowed between different legal theories

    – Mike Pence.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  180. Are there laws explicitly referring to falsely claiming to be an Elector?

    Probably not, but in a case nobody ever formally did and I didn’t hear or read anything about the false electors being indicted.

    It probably depends on the state. Fake Trump electors have been indicted in Michigan and are unindicted co-conspirators 2 and 8-19 in the Georgia case.

    Three of the 16 Georgia fake electors were charged in the indictment: David Shafer, Shawn Still and Cathleen Alston Latham.

    The other 13 fake electors, according to the fake electors certificate published by the National Archives, are (Republican Lt. Gov. Burt) Jones (co-conspirator 8), Joseph Brannan (co-conspirator 9), James “Ken” Carroll, Gloria Godwin, David Hanna, Mark Hennessy, Mark Amick, John Downey, Daryl Moody, Brad Carver, CB Yadav and two others who appear to be Individuals 10 and 11 (Georgia GOP officials Carolyn Fisher and Vikki Consiglio).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  181. 16.

    The one issue I have researched (Burisma) showed plenty of evidence that the actions Joe took were based on US policy.

    The actions he said he took.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  182. 183. So they’re counting them as overt acts even though the fake electoral certifications were never actually submitted to Congress or used.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  183. Eight of the fake Georgia electors took plea deals with Fulton County.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  184. 183. So they’re counting them as overt acts even though the fake electoral certifications were never actually submitted to Congress or used.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:12 pm

    It is not required that a criminal conspiracy be successful in order to be crime.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  185. 109.

    “He also said that Hunter Biden was under immense pressure while they both served on the Burisma board to call Washington, D.C. immediately and try to get Shokin fired. That’s the Ukrainian prosecutor.

    I think Devon Archer said more like the opposite. That Shokin was not considered a major problem by Burisma.

    https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-releases-devon-archers-transcribed-interview-transcript%EF%BF%BC

    Majority Counsel: When you say pressure from the government, at this time were you aware that Viktor Shokin was investigating Burisma?

    Mr. Archer: To the best, I vaguely ‑‑ whether it was Shokin, I vague ‑‑ there was a lot of pressure initially. There was ‑‑ there was several pressure issues. It was kind of a theme of Burisma.

    There was capital tied up in London, 23 million pounds. There was, you know, a U.S. visa denied and then a Mexico visa denied. And then there was ‑‑ so Shokin wasn’t specifically on my radar as being an individual that was ‑‑ that was targeting him. But yes, there was constant pressure. And it was like ‑‑ it was like whack‑a‑mole in regards to the pressures that had to resolve.

    Not included in the excerpt:

    Q Are you aware that Vadym had told Blue Star that one of the issues/pressures that he was facing was related to Shokin and the investigation into Burisma?

    A So — yes. I was — the narrative that was spun to me, quite frankly, just to be — and I remember this because, obviously, it’s — the narrative that was spun to me was that Shokin was under control and that whoever the next person that was brought in was — you know, the fact that he was — this is the total, this is the narrative spun to me 17 that Shokin being fired was a — was not good, because he was like under control as relates to Mykola.

    I have no way to verify that. And that was spun to me from various folks in D.C., not Hunter specifically, but that was what I was led to believe. Whether it’s true or not, I cannot speculate.

    Later:

    I was — and I answered it before. I was spun a narrative that Shokin was good for Burisma from —

    Q But that was not from Hunter Biden or —

    A No —

    Q — Vadym?

    A — it wasn’t from Hunter. I can’t say it was from Hunter. So —

    Mr. Schwartz. The answer —

    Mr. Archer. Yeah, no.

    Mr. Schwartz. — is, no, no such conversation happened.

    Mr. Archer. Right. No, that didn’t happen. But, again, I was left out of everything.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  186. The Fulton County trial will be televised.

    Unless it ends up in federal court. Removal to federal court seems likely. Whether it will be remanded to state court is the question.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  187. 187. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:13 pm

    It is not required that a criminal conspiracy be successful in order to be crime.

    Well, can somebody be indicted for preparing a false tax return that was ultimately never filed? (although the effort to falsely claim lower taxes continued)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  188. From post 168:

    (Former Georgia Republican Party Chair David Shafer) also revealed a Dec. 10, 2020 email he received from Alex Kaufman, a local GOP attorney urging him to push forward with convening the slate of false electors a few days later. Trump-affiliated attorneys Cleta Mitchell, Kurt Hilbert and Smith were copied on the email.
    ………….
    “It is essential that our delegates act and vote in the exact manner as if Governor Kemp has certified the Presidential Contest in favor of President Trump,” Kaufman continued. “ I believe that this is still the most conservative course of action to preserve the best chance for Georgia to ultimately support the President’s reelection.”
    ………

    My emphasis. Kemp certified the results of the presidential vote in favor of Biden on November 23, 2020. The fake electors met on December 14, 2020. They knew it was wrong.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  189. Well, can somebody be indicted for preparing a false tax return that was ultimately never filed? (although the effort to falsely claim lower taxes continued)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:34 pm

    Apples and oranges, unless it is part of a conspiracy. Unless you are arguing that if the government discovered a conspiracy, they shouldn’t act unless the conspiracy was implemented?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  190. If the Atlanta case is removed to federal court, there will be a bigger jury selection pool, and different rules for voir dire, but it will be prosecuted under state law (no presidential pardon possible) and by Fulton County DA Fani Willis.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  191. 192. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:37 pm

    Unless you are arguing that if the government discovered a conspiracy, they shouldn’t act unless the conspiracy was implemented?

    It depends maybe on what stopped the conspiracy.

    What stopped the conspiracy here was the unwillingness of many people to take part in it. And none of it was very secret.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  192. John Eastman ‘absolutely’ believes the 2020 election was stolen

    NBC News’ Ali Vitali spoke to former Trump lawyer John Eastman after he surrendered to authorities in Fulton County. He said he “absolutely” still believes the 2020 election was stolen and would not comment on what processing he went through in the county jail.

    https://www.msnbc.com/chris-jansing-reports/watch/john-eastman-speaks-after-surrendering-to-authorities-in-georgia-191349317952

    My sources tell me that his heart is in the right place…

    BuDuh (3f3b66)

  193. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:34 pm

    . Kemp certified the results of the presidential vote in favor of Biden on November 23, 2020. The fake electors met on December 14, 2020. They knew it was wrong.

    The Trump people had a legal theory under which the certification could be reversed, even after December 14. They were arguing in court still. Some may have had more conditions in mind than others.

    The false electors knew their ballots could very well not count I don’t think they thought of it as attempted fraud.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  194. Unless you are arguing that if the government discovered a conspiracy, they shouldn’t act unless the conspiracy was implemented?

    Sounds like Jan 6th, Chief Sund, IC community talk.

    BuDuh (3f3b66)

  195. Unless you are arguing that if the government discovered a conspiracy, they shouldn’t act unless the conspiracy was implemented?

    Sounds like Jan 6th, Chief Sund, IC community talk.

    BuDuh (3f3b66) — 8/22/2023 @ 3:46 pm

    I was thinking like the Michigan Wolverine Watchmen kidnapping conspiracy plot.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  196. 134. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/21/2023 @ 2:48 pm

    Someone may have told him about Hunter, Burisma and Ukrainian officials

    Someone did. Trump also said he heard the recording both on the July 25 2019 telephone call (Trump seems to say that) and later at a press conference in September 2019 at the United Nations.. Trump said he thought it was incredible that Biden would say that.

    He somehow didn’t notice, or didn’t care, that while Biden said he caused the firing of the prosecutor, he did NOT say he did it to stop an investigation!

    That particular spin was probably added by Vladimir Putin through Russian intelligence who may have been Giuliani’s sources’ sources.
    Giuliani himself said that Biden left out the detail that it was to stop an investigation. But Trump may have been told that and missed the fact that Joe Biden did not say that in the recording

    https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-zelensky-ukraine-bilateral-meeting-new-york-ny

    PRESIDENT TRUMP: I think that somebody, if you look at what he did, it’s so bad — where his son he goes to China, he walks away with a billion and a half dollars. He goes to Ukraine and he walks away with $50,000 a month and a lot of money in addition to that. And the whole thing with the prosecutor in Ukraine.

    And he’s on tape. This isn’t like “maybe he did it, maybe he didn’t.” He’s on tape doing this. I saw this a while ago. I looked at it and I said, “That’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.” Now, either he’s dumb, or he thought he was in a room full of really good friends, or maybe it’s a combination of both, in his case.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  197. Now what Biden actually said on January 23, 2018:

    https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-affairs-issue-launch-former-vice-president-joe-biden

    …They made—I mean, I’ll give you one concrete example. I was—not I, but it just happened to be that was the assignment I got. I got all the good ones. And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

    So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

    Nothing there about getting him fired to stop an investigation

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  198. In his phone call with Zelensky on July 25, 2019, Donald Trump wanted to know if it was true that Biden had caused the firing of a prosecutor to stop an investigation.

    This would not be of any value to Donald Trump unless it was true That’s why he wanted the story checked out.

    Zelensky knew, of course, that Joe Biden had not caused the firing of the Prosecutor General. This was a very public event in Ukraine.

    But he didn’t want to disabuse Donald Trump of that idea.

    Trump was withholding aid. But he thought the Ukrainians did not know about that. But they were told by some people.

    Trump’s aides tried to get that reversed. Eventually Gordon Sundland. Ambassador to the EU, came up, in September, with the idea of trading resumption for an announcement of an investigation of Burisma (not Biden) Trump rejected the idea. Sundland pursued it anyway.

    Trump also wanted some Ukrainian officials he was told were against him – and corrupt – Putin always supplied a noble reason as well – fired. They were already eliminated from his government – it was only a few people – but Trump did not know that because he was not in routine contact with Giuliani. That was Trump’s main request.

    The checking out of Biden’s story, or what Trump thought was Biden’s story, was merely an additional favor.

    When the “hold” became public it was removed. Doing that in secret was against the aw and aid to Ukraine was extremely popular in Congress.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  199. #195 “My sources tell me that [John Eastman’s] heart is in the right place…”

    It probably is on the left side, since dextrocardia is quite rare. His head, however, needs some serious help. And we should try to offer it to him, as we would offer help to the victims of any other con man.

    The Loser has damaged, and even ruined, the lives of so many people.

    Jim Miller (30b3da)

  200. (Eastman’s head, however, needs some serious help.

    “Everyone, on the count of three, PULL!”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  201. Jim, tell me more about Kari Lake’s hairstyle.

    BuDuh (3f3b66)

  202. John Eastman ‘absolutely’ believes the 2020 election was stolen

    I believe the Earth is flat.

    norcal (bb7fa5)

  203. That broad term is meant to capture the various, creative mechanisms that can be used to suppress fundamental rights,

    This kind of “capture” is often called unconstitutionally vague, as no one knows when they violate it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  204. John Eastman ‘absolutely’ believes the 2020 election was stolen

    I don’t care what he believes. What I care about is whether he broke a law that clearly made his behavior criminal.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  205. Don’t forget that the Delaware Senators have a say, and both are far left Democrats, so it’s not like Trump could’ve picked a GOP/Trump friendly prosecutor.

    But they might have OK’d a crook.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  206. Probably not, but in a case nobody ever formally did and I didn’t hear or read anything about the false electors being indicted.

    My real question is whether the sole power to judge the elector’s credentials lies with Congress, or whether a state official has the presumptive authority to name electors. In 1876 that did not seem to work.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  207. Every day trump rises in the polls and his minions get angrier. On their sites they are talking about how to answer jury questions correctly to get on trump’s jury. Supposed lawyers are telling them what to say.

    asset (10c559)

  208. DO they realize that perjury is a felony which means they lose all their guns?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  209. @211 these are trumpsters. One trumpster has just been arrested for making death threats against trump judges. The mensa’s phone number was on judges caller ID!

    asset (10c559)

  210. @207. Kevin, I believe there is an intent requirement that will be very hard to prove if the jury thinks the defendants truly believed what they were saying.

    Time123 (011ecd)

  211. The New York Post has a front page headline that assumes the truth of Joe Biden’s claim, back in 2016 (to the Atlantic) and in 2018 (in the Q&A session of a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations) that he got Prosecutot General Viktor Shokin fired. The news hook is that Obma officials weren’t pushing for him to get fired. there are memos (probably leaked by the Republicans to John Solomon) where Obama officials wrote they were “impressed” by the “progress” Shokin had made (in fighting corruption).

    There was also, of course, no tie between the loan guarantees and action againt SHikin,,

    But Biden made the whole story up! Shokin was not fired near any time Biden was in Kyiv,,,,,,, and Biden was not in charge of U.S. government policy on Ukraine. Is there any mention of that in the memoes?

    Sammy Finkelman (50331e)

  212. The idea of a Vice President with superpowers and no contemporary record of it is implausible. Equally implausible is the notion that Donald Trump wanted Ukraine to falsely accuse Joe Biden of protecting corruption.

    Sammy Finkelman (50331e)

  213. Equally implausible is the notion that Donald Trump wanted Ukraine to falsely accuse Joe Biden of protecting corruption.

    Actually that seems quite plausible.

    Rip Murdock (6347cf)

  214. @207. Kevin, I believe there is an intent requirement that will be very hard to prove if the jury thinks the defendants truly believed what they were saying.

    Time123 (011ecd) — 8/23/2023 @ 6:07 am

    Since (according to witnesses at the January 6th Committee) Eastman admitted that his scheme to have Pence replace the legitimate electors with the fake ones was probably illegal, it would be tough for to say he truly believed it:

    Leading the campaign was Trump lawyer John Eastman, who over the two days before Jan. 6 spoke repeatedly with top Pence aides about whether the vice president would either reject outright Biden’s winning electoral college count or suspend the day’s proceedings to allow seven contested states to reexamine their popular votes, witnesses said.

    Pence never considered it, former vice-presidential counsel Greg Jacob testified — and even Eastman acknowledged that the gambit was not legal, Jacob said. In addition to that apparent admission, several former White House aides testified that they — and Pence — told Trump the same.

    “I said, ‘John, if the vice president did what you were asking him to do, we would lose nine to nothing in the Supreme Court, wouldn’t we?’ ” Jacob recalled. “And after some further discussion, he acknowledged, ‘Well, yeah, you’re right, we would lose nine to nothing.’ ”

    Rip Murdock (6347cf)

  215. Morning Consult Republican Primary Tracking Poll 8/22/23

    ………..
    The bulk of the GOP’s electorate (58%) would back Trump if the primary or caucus were held in their state today, while 14% would support DeSantis.

    Ramaswamy is backed by 10% of the party’s potential voters, followed by former Vice President Mike Pence (6%), former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott and former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (each tied at 3%), and former Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson (1%). Miami Mayor Francis Suarez, North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum and former Texas Rep. Will Hurd each have 0% backing.
    ………
    Hypothetical head-to-head matchups show Biden leading Trump by 2 points and DeSantis by 6 points among the general electorate. Voters are slightly more uncertain about who they would support or say they would opt for “someone else” when Biden is matched up against DeSantis.
    ………
    Trump is popular with 76% of the party’s potential electorate, while 23% view him unfavorably.

    Ramaswamy’s net favorability rating — the share who hold favorable views minus the share who hold unfavorable views — is 4 points better than DeSantis’. Furthermore, roughly a third of potential GOP primary voters have yet to form views about Ramaswamy — setting high stakes for his debate stage appearance.
    ………
    Buzz about DeSantis is the worst it’s ever been. The expected GOP electorate is only 2 points more likely to have recently heard something positive than negative about him, down from a 46-point advantage by the metric at the start of tracking in late November.
    ………

    ………(R)esults among potential Republican primary voters have an unweighted margin of error of plus or minus 1 to 2 percentage points, while results among all voters have an unweighted margin of error of 1 percentage point.
    ………….

    Yawn.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  216. Congratulations to India, which successfully landed a robot at the Moon’s South Pole (a first for anyone).

    Last few seconds of landing: https://www.youtube.com/live/DLA_64yz8Ss?feature=share&t=2640

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  217. Eastman admitted that his scheme to have Pence replace the legitimate electors with the fake ones was probably illegal

    He did no such thing. He admitted that he thought it was a losing legal argument, but never that it was a violation of law. No court had ruled on the matter as yet, even though it happened before.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  218. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 9:34 am

    We’ll see.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  219. My problem with Eastman is that he was willing to throw the election and succession into such chaos. For that he should be disbarred for general “moral turpitude” reasons. But it may not have been a crime.

    They may convict him, of course, but the conviction might ALSO lose at the Supreme Court 9-0 (as did the conviction of Conrad Black). Does that make the conviction “illegal”?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  220. We’ll see.

    We’ll see if “illegal” and “lost at the Supreme Court” are synonyms? Admit you’re wrong for once.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  221. Morning Consult: Most Voters Want Trump’s Georgia Case Handled by Election Day 2024
    ……….
    According to our latest survey, 68% of voters say it is important to them personally that a verdict is reached in the Fulton County case, including 46% who said it is “very important.” This sentiment is shared among independent voters: 2 in 3 want the case decided by next November.
    ……….
    Our latest survey asked voters how willing they would be to support Trump in the event of a hypothetical conviction, sentencing or imprisonment. In each scenario, roughly 3 in 5 potential Republican primary voters said they would be willing to support the former president, both in the primary or a general election, even if he is behind bars. Roughly 4 in 5 Trump supporters said the same.

    ……..Among the larger electorate, roughly half of voters said they would be “very” unwilling to support Trump if he’s convicted, sentenced or imprisoned.
    ……..
    ……..(T)he bulk of the electorate (47%) said the Georgia grand jury’s decision reflects evidence that he committed a crime, 9 percentage points higher than the share who said it reflects motivation to damage his political career (38%).
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  222. @215 Why do you feel that Trump wanting a false accusation is implausible? We’re talking about a man who put fake magazine covers with himself on the cover on his office wall and put a fake civil war battle plaque at a golf course. The man is famously dishonest.

    Seems very plausible to me that he wanted an accusation he could use for political gain and cared not at all if it was true or not.

    I sort of recall some documentary evidence that Trump wouldn’t be satisfied if they opened an investigation and was insisting they announce it that would support my interpretation of his intent …but my memory is a bit fuzzy.

    Time123 (011ecd)

  223. We’ll see if “illegal” and “lost at the Supreme Court” are synonyms? Admit you’re wrong for once.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 9:39 am

    “We’ll see” means that I (and everyone else) don’t know the totality of the evidence regarding Eastman’s state of mind-there may be emails, text messages, meeting notes, etc. that reveal more than his one statement regarding “losing at the Supreme Court.”

    In other Eastman news, his California disbarment hearing has resumed. It was put on hold after beginning in June until yesterday. He was granted a two-day extension so he could surrender to Georgia authorities. Eastman has also argued that the hearing should be postponed since any evidence could be used against him by the Special Counsel:

    ……..
    Eastman intermittently took the stand during those June proceedings, (State bar attorney Duncan Carling) noted, and voluntarily waived his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
    ………
    Eastman sought to postpone the remainder of his trial even before the charges arrived in Georgia, worrying that he was about to be charged by special counsel Jack Smith, who described Eastman as one of Trump’s co-conspirators in a criminal indictment issued on Aug. 3. But Smith has not yet charged anyone other than Trump in the alleged scheme to derail the transfer of power.
    ………
    “The State Bar has presented extensive evidence to support … charges that [Eastman] engaged in acts of dishonesty and moral turpitude in matters concerning the peaceful transition of power in 2020,” he wrote. “[Eastman] disputes these charges and continues to claim, both in court and in public statements, that the 2020 election was stolen through fraud and that his actions to support efforts to reject the 2020 election results were justified and valid.”
    ……….
    “Once the privilege is waived, that waiver cannot be revoked,” Carling wrote in a Tuesday filing.
    ……….
    Eastman sought to postpone the remainder of his trial even before the charges arrived in Georgia, worrying that he was about to be charged by special counsel Jack Smith, who described Eastman as one of Trump’s co-conspirators in a criminal indictment issued on Aug. 3. But Smith has not yet charged anyone other than Trump in the alleged scheme to derail the transfer of power.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  224. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:03 am

    The paragraph order for the article excerpt in post 226 is incorrect. Below is the corrected excerpt.

    In other Eastman news, his California disbarment hearing has resumed. It was put on hold after beginning in June until yesterday. He was granted a two-day extension so he could surrender to Georgia authorities. Eastman has also argued that the hearing should be postponed since any evidence could be used against him by the Special Counsel:

    ……….
    ……….Eastman intermittently took the stand during those June proceedings, (State bar attorney Duncan Carling) noted, and voluntarily waived his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

    “Once the privilege is waived, that waiver cannot be revoked,” Carling wrote in a Tuesday filing.
    ……..
    Eastman sought to postpone the remainder of his trial even before the charges arrived in Georgia, worrying that he was about to be charged by special counsel Jack Smith, who described Eastman as one of Trump’s co-conspirators in a criminal indictment issued on Aug. 3. But Smith has not yet charged anyone other than Trump in the alleged scheme to derail the transfer of power.
    ……..
    “The State Bar has presented extensive evidence to support … charges that [Eastman] engaged in acts of dishonesty and moral turpitude in matters concerning the peaceful transition of power in 2020,” he wrote. “[Eastman] disputes these charges and continues to claim, both in court and in public statements, that the 2020 election was stolen through fraud and that his actions to support efforts to reject the 2020 election results were justified and valid” (said Carling).
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  225. See here for the State Bar’s main motion opposing an additional three-month delay in Eastman’s disbarment hearing.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  226. Instead of defenestration, Prigozhin “fell” from a greater height. I’m surprised he lived as long as he did. The “chef” never did have decent air power.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  227. Doug Brugum may be out of the “debate” tonight.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  228. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:34 am

    SAD!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  229. That’s big news, Paul.

    nk (6040dd)

  230. Might not be an accident, either.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  231. Yahoo News/YouGov Poll 8/22/23

    ……….
    The survey of 1,665 U.S. adults, which was conducted from Aug. 17 to 21, shows that DeSantis’s support among potential GOP primary voters has fallen farther — and faster — over the last few weeks than ever before, plummeting from his previous low of 23% in mid-July to just 12% today.

    To put the governor’s 11-point collapse in perspective, DeSantis was actually leading former President Donald Trump in a head-to-head matchup, by 45% to 41%, as recently as February. …….

    Not anymore, however. According to the new Yahoo News/YouGov poll, DeSantis is now just 4 points ahead of the tech entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy (at 8%, up from 3% previously). For the first time, more Republican and Republican-leaning voters say they’re “not sure” whom they would support if their state’s primary were held today (14%) than say they would support DeSantis.

    Trump, meanwhile, is lapping the field at 52% — up from 48% previously, and statistically tied with his highest number to date. His 40-point lead over DeSantis is also a new record. (Just last month, the former president led by 25.) No other GOP hopeful clears 5%, with South Carolina Sen. Tim Scott (4%), former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (3%), former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (2%) and former Vice President Mike Pence (2%) continuing to languish in the low single digits.
    ……….
    The Yahoo News/YouGov survey makes it painfully clear that non-Trump Republicans have soured on the governor. One measure is how he performs in a hypothetical two-way matchup with Trump. ……..

    What’s striking is not just that DeSantis has sunk to a new low on this question (down from 31%) or that Trump has ascended to a new high (up from 57%). ……

    Ultimately, it’s changing perceptions of DeSantis that account for this shift — not changing perceptions of Trump. Among potential Republican primary voters, the former president’s overall personal rating is now 75% favorable to 23% unfavorable, essentially matching last month’s result (76% favorable to 22% unfavorable). But over the same period, DeSantis’s favorable rating has fallen by 4 points (from 71% to 67%) while his unfavorable rating has jumped by five (from 17% to 22%).
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  232. Instead of defenestration, Prigozhin “fell” from a greater height. I’m surprised he lived as long as he did. The “chef” never did have decent air power.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:34 am

    To quote the Hitchcock film North by Northwest:

    Leonard (Martin Landau): Your not taking her (Eva Marie Saint) on the plane with you?

    Phillip Vandamm (James Mason): Of course I am. Like our friends I too believe in neatness Leonard. This matter is best disposed of from a great height, over water.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  233. Tass confirmed that Russian military shot down the jet.
    More here.
    After the moon crashed into Luna-25, General Surovikin is out, too, but his exit from Aerospace Forces was less fiery.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  234. However, it is telling that Eastman asked for a pardon. Not dispositive…and possibly trying to head off even the possibility of a case…but still interesting. I love how he expressed it to Giuliani

    “I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works,”

    Hubris?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  235. But as he groped against the wall, two hands upon him fell,
    The King behind his shoulder spake: “Dead man, thou dost not well!
    ‘Tis ill to jest with Kings by day and seek a boon by night;
    And that thou bearest in thy hand is all too sharp to write. But three days hence, if God be good, and if thy strength remain,
    Thou shalt demand one boon of me and bless me in thy pain.
    For I am merciful to all, and most of all to thee.
    My butcher of the shambles, rest—no knife hast thou for me!”
    ****
    hey sought the King among his girls, and risked their lives thereby:
    “Protector of the Pitiful, give orders that he die!”

    “Bid him endure until the day,” a lagging answer came;
    “The night is short, and he can pray and learn to bless my name.”
    Before the dawn three times he spoke, and on the day once more:
    “Creature of God, deliver me, and bless the King therefor!”

    They shot him at the morning prayer, to ease him of his pain,
    And when he heard the matchlocks clink, he blessed the King again.

    Which thing the singers made a song for all the world to sing,
    So that the Outer Seas may know the mercy of the King.

    nk (3560eb)

  236. Comedy Gold!

    ………
    (Donald Trump) won’t be at this first debate, which is being hosted by Fox News, and most of his opponents for the GOP nomination aren’t likely to bring him up on stage without being explicitly asked about him. And when they do, inevitably, talk about Trump, it’s likely to be in glowing or neutral terms, even as they confront questions about Trump’s fitness for office following his fourth criminal indictment. …….
    ………
    8. Vivek Ramaswamy: Trump Stan All The Way
    ………
    Ramaswamy won’t go after one of his professed political heroes, someone he’s been compared to as he campaigns for president. ……(L)ike Trump, he’s floated conspiracies — suggesting the government may have lied about 9/11 and the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection — and extreme policies, like raising the voting age to 25 for most Americans and gutting the federal government.
    ……..

    7. Doug Burgum: Doug Who?
    ……….

    6. Tim Scott: The Evangelical Wild Card
    ………
    Scott is pitted against Trump for the support of evangelicals, a voting bloc that, according to the most recent Iowa Poll, Trump is carrying handily.

    But that doesn’t mean Scott will make the case to religious voters that he’s more aligned with their values than Trump. Scott has been a staunch Trump backer in the U.S. Senate, declining to impeach him for his actions leading up to the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol.

    “The president is simply not guilty,” he said a month after the Jan. 6 attack. ………

    5. Nikki Haley: ‘Underestimated’ Trump Flip-Flopper

    You won’t hear Nikki Haley talk about Trump much by name on the campaign trail, despite the fact that one of Haley’s biggest career achievements was serving as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations at the behest of Trump, and then leaving on good terms in 2018.

    ………(She has given) her detractors plenty of runway to argue that she’s always attuned to what’s most politically expedient.

    After Jan. 6, Haley said Trump “went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him.”

    Later that same year: “We need him in the Republican Party. I don’t want us to go back to the days before Trump.”
    ……….
    Given her lack of traction in polls, Haley, who’s been in the race longer than any other Republican, might need a new approach to match the campaign swag that dares her rivals: “Underestimate me. That’ll be fun.”

    4. Ron DeSantis: Sick Of Being Silent?
    ……….
    New signs, however, point to DeSantis losing his resolve against criticizing the former president. He’s defied the “Make America Great Again” orthodoxy by admitting that Trump lost the 2020 election. Last week, DeSantis made his sharpest remarks yet against Trump, suggesting he should have never joined the 2024 presidential race in response to a question about the indictments. (DeSantis still argues that Trump’s legal troubles are the result of a weaponized government and political vendettas.)
    ………

    3. Mike Pence: Newly Emboldened By Jan. 6
    ……….
    In Iowa, Pence offered a glimpse of how he might handle Jan. 6 on the debate stage: “Frankly, my former running mate has spent the last 2½ years telling people something that just didn’t sell,” Pence told reporters there this month. “President Trump was wrong when he asked me, and he told the American people ever since I had the right to overturn the election. I had no right to overturn it.”

    2. Asa Hutchinson: The Anti-Trumper You’ve Never Heard Of
    ………

    1. Chris Christie: The Anti-Trump Hammer
    ………

    Polling shows DeSantis continuing to sink like a rock (see here and here); Doug Brugum may not attend due to a basketball injury.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  237. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/23/2023 @ 9:43 am

    Most people are going to be disappointed.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  238. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733

    Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the passenger list of a jet which crashed killing all on board, Russia’s civil aviation authority has said.

    Earlier, Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported that the private plane, which belonged to Prigozhin, was shot down by air defences.

    It was flying from Moscow to St Petersburg, with seven passengers and three crew.

    They just showed him on a video, that seemed to be shot in Africa.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/prigozhin-video-africa-wagner-russia-rcna101130

    Prigozhin appears in first video since mutiny, says Wagner making Africa ‘more free’

    In a brief video shared by Russian social media channels, a man who appears to be the exiled mercenary chief says he is recruiting “real strong men.”

    …..

    Vowing to make Africa “more free” and “Russia even greater on every continent,” a person who appears to be Prigozhin hints at his location in the 41-second clip, which was published by several Telegram channels affiliated with Wagner on Monday.

    The video shows the man standing in a desert-like area, dressed in military fatigues and wearing a bulletproof vest featuring the Wagner logo. The exiled mercenary leader’s exact whereabouts remain unknown two months after he led the short-lived rebellion against Moscow’s military leadership.

    “We are working. The temperature is plus 50 (degrees Celsius). Everything is how we like it,” Prigozhin appears to say in the video while holding an assault rifle in his hands. Armed men on pickup trucks can be seen in the background, seemingly keeping a safety perimeter around him.

    “Wagner is conducting reconnaissance and search operations, making Russia even greater on every continent — and Africa even more free. Justice and happiness for the African nations,” he said, adding that he is hiring “real strong men” and will “continue working on tasks that were set to us and we promised to carry out,” without elaborating.

    Alongside the video address, one of the Telegram channels posted a phone number for potential recruits….

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  239. #240 —

    There is no way the Georgia trial starts before election day. Fani W’s RICO cases are complicated and take forever to get to trial and actually try. If folks want action on a true January 6 indictment, they will need to put their hopes on the case in the DC Circuit.

    If Trump wins, things will get real weird here in Georgia.

    Appalled (b9a8ad)

  240. Time123 (011ecd) — 8/23/2023 @ 9:57 am

    @215 Why do you feel that Trump wanting a false accusation is implausible?

    Because it would be useless to him. Who, in the United Sates, would attach any credibility to an accusation coming from Ukraine, a country notorious for corruption?

    It would be of worth to Trump – maybe – only if it was factual = backed up.

    We’re talking about a man who put fake magazine covers with himself on the cover on his office wall and put a fake civil war battle plaque at a golf course. The man is famously dishonest.

    Yes, but it needs to be believed.

    Now Trump maybe may have been lying when he claimed he did not think that Biden was actually likely to be his 2020 opponent. I don’t know that he ever said something publicly about that in 2019 or if anything came out. But he anyway, of course, could not be certain it would be Biden. (if he was calculating, it would also be worth it to him, if the he did not bring it up until after Biden had clinched the nomination, or maybe later.)

    Seems very plausible to me that he wanted an accusation he could use for political gain and cared not at all if it was true or not.

    He couldn’t use a false accusation coming from the Ukrainian government.

    A true accusation – that’s another matter, because it would be backed up by all sorts of evidence. And it would be especially useful if he banked it – but that’s more a tactic for a Democratic scandal machine.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  241. Who, in the United Sates, would attach any credibility to an accusation coming from Ukraine, a country notorious for corruption?

    Donald Trump and his voters.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  242. I sort of recall some documentary evidence that Trump wouldn’t be satisfied if they opened an investigation and was insisting they announce it that would support my interpretation of his intent …but my memory is a bit fuzzy.

    Trump was not involved in these negotiations in September 2019 by Gordon Sondland. Gordon Sondland was trying to guess what would satisfy Trump and get him to lift the hold on Ukrainian aid. (Trump did not give anybody else in the U.S> government a reason for the hold, resulting in his underlings resorting to guessing because they all wanted to lift the unannounced hold..)

    The Ukrainian government had been slandered to him by Russian intelligence, operating through Giuliani’s sources.

    Whenever asked, and Trump was asked both by Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland (who came up with the idea of tying the lifting of the hold to Burisma) and by Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson, Trump said he was not interested in a quid pro quo. The Ukrainians should do this (investigate Burisma) on their own initiative was his feeling.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  243. Who, in the United Sates, would attach any credibility to an accusation coming from Ukraine, a country notorious for corruption?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/23/2023 @ 12:44 pm

    Donald Trump and his voters.

    Donald Trump didn’t need any help from Ukraine with the voters he already had.

    He needed that or wanted that, to get other voters – and that would only be of worth if it was true – provable. Something more than the Ukrainian government saying that.

    Now if Trump was really calculating, he’d want to bank the evidence and only trot it out at the best possible moment – after Biden had clinched the nomination or even later.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  244. Trump even had Biden on tape (although he may have missed the “subtlety” (possibly because of spin he got with the recording) that Biden never said he caused the firing of the prosecutor in order to stop an investigation

    This is what he had: (A longer excerpt is at #200)

    https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-affairs-issue-launch-former-vice-president-joe-biden

    And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time [George Kent testified that Biden was over a total of 6 times] to Kiev.

    And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

    So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

    This whole story, by the way, is a figment of Joe Biden’s imagination.

    It didn’t happen in March, 2016 (the month Viktor Shokin’s dismissal was voted for by the Ukrainian
    Parliament); it didn’t happen in December, 2015 (the month Joe Biden last visited Kyiv before March);it didn’t happen in June 2016, (the month the third batch of loan guarantees was announced at a press conference in Kyiv – with the U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt speaking but Biden wasn’t there; it didn’t happen in November, 2015, the month the withholding of the loan guarantee was announced by the Obama Administration; it didn’t happen any place you might choose to place Joe Biden’s tall tale in a timeline.

    But today Jonathan Turley fell for it.

    https://jonathanturley.org/2023/08/23/joe-bidens-ukraine-defense-falls-apart/comment-page-2

    Ironically, it’s the one controversial story that appears entirely true.

    In a 2018 interview at the Council on Foreign Relations,

    It was a speech, with his co-author, Michael R. Carpenter about an article they had written in the January/February 2018 issue of Foreign Affairs entitled “How to Stand Up to the Kremlin: Defending Democracy Against Its Enemies,” and this was said in the Q&A portion of his appearance there on January 23, 2018.

    Continuing with Turley:

    Biden bragged that he unilaterally withheld a billion dollars in US aid from the Ukrainians to force them to fire prosecutor general Viktor Shokin.

    The Ukrainians balked, but Biden gave them an ultimatum: “I looked at them and said, ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money.’ Well, son of a bitch. He got fired.”

    A total lie.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  245. Any guesses as to the ratings breakdown between tonight’s debate and Tuckyo’s pre-recorded puff sitdown with Trump?

    norcal (3fd450)

  246. In his telephone call on July 26, 2019 Trump also mentioned having heard a recording. This was not in the transcript because it was produced by an automatic process similar to the way a voicemail is transcribed to email, supplemented and corrected by people who had been listening in based on their memory and notes and the punctuation is sometimes a little bit wrong.

    Missing words (either because they were unclear or inaudible) are indicated by ellipses.

    The New York Times writes:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/25/us/politics/trump-ukraine-transcript.html

    Mr. Trump said Attorney General William P. Barr would call the Ukrainian president about another investigation. Mr. Trump appears to be referencing an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory pushed by Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, that Ukraine had some involvement in the emails stolen from Democratic National Committee.

    In testimony after the White House released this reconstructed transcript, an official on the call told impeachment investigators that the ellipses represented important words or phrases that were deliberately left out. Among the omissions was Mr. Trump raising the existence of recordings of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., and Mr. Zelensky’s mentioning Burisma Holdings, the energy company whose board employed Mr. Biden’s son Hunter.

    Trump was actually more interested in finding out about the DNC server, which had supposedly been moved to Ukraine, which would prove that the Russians had not hacked the DNC.

    But here he is about Biden firing the prosecutor:

    I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that’s really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what’s happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.

    What probably sounded horrible (at the UN Trump used the word “incredible”) was Biden claiming to have fired the prosecutor – Trump missing the fact that Biden didn’t say he fired him to stop an investigation.

    As you can see, all that Trump wants here is information because that Biden would tell that story to his audience in public sounds too incredible to believe. Even if Trump probably did not even catch, or know, where Biden had said that.

    Trump is asking for the truth. Now in September it was something else that Sondland wanted. (an announcement on CNN that Burisma was being investigated – not an answer to Trump’s inquiry about Biden firing the prosecutor to stop an investigation, which Sondland maybe did not even know about)

    Zelensky responds (to this and other things Trump said) in somewhat bad English:

    (S/NF) President Zelenskyy: I wanted to tell you about the prosecutor. First of all I understand and I’m knowledgeable about the situation. Since we have won the absolute majority in our Parliament, the next prosecutor general will be 100% my person, my candidate, who will be approved by the parliament and will start as a new prosecutor in September. He or she will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue. The issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have any additional information that you can provide to us, it would be very helpful for the investigation to make sure that we administer justice in our country.

    Zelensky deflects and asks Trump to supply more information if he has it..

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  247. 249 norcal (3fd450) — 8/23/2023 @ 2:14 pm

    . Any guesses as to the ratings breakdown between tonight’s debate and Tuckyo’s pre-recorded puff sitdown with Trump?

    Trump’s interview will not be rated, although people could be polled about it, because it is being streamed on Twitter X.

    It is hard to say. Not that many people will be interested in what Trump has to say – but not that many people will be interested in the debate without Trump. The debate will be exposed to a much bigger audience and be covered more by the media. Trump might get more coverage if he says something interesting.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  248. Turley: Yet we now know the State Department had found progress was being made on corruption and Shokin was praised in private correspondence.

    Earlier, in 2015. He was after all eventually fired under foreign pressure..

    Turley:

    Leading diplomat George Kent wrote then-Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch,

    This would have been after August 29, 2016. She was forced out because of Giuliani on May 20, 2019

    “The real issue to my mind was that someone in Washington needed to engage VP Biden quietly and say that his son Hunter’s presence on the Burisma board undercut the anti-corruption message the VP and we were advancing in Ukraine b/c Ukrainians heard one message from us and then saw another set of behavior with the family association with a known corrupt figure whose company was known for not playing by the rules.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  249. The First Debate and the Race for Second Place

    What’s the point of tonight’s Republican debate?

    It’s not an unreasonable question, with the runaway front-runner for the Republican nomination deciding to skip it.

    But there’s a case that we might just be getting a clearer view of the race in Donald J. Trump’s absence. We will certainly get a clearer look at an important dimension of the race that we might not have otherwise been able to observe.
    ……….
    ……….Mr. Trump wouldn’t ordinarily seem likely to lose the nomination by conventional means in a conventional race: His lead over Ron DeSantis is at least twice as large as that of any front-runner who has ever gone on to lose a party nomination at this stage.

    Taken together, it’s entirely possible that the likeliest way for Mr. Trump to lose the nomination involves the mounting weight of his legal challenges, rather than a conventional electoral defeat on the campaign trail and debate stage. That weight could take a variety of forms, including some well short of a conviction, like the possibility that Republican voters gradually reassess the seriousness of the risks facing Mr. Trump as a trial nears — but realistically we’re talking trial, conviction and even imprisonment.

    If we stipulate that these risks are in fact the greatest ones facing Mr. Trump, a certain strategy for his opponents begins to take shape: a strategy premised on capitalizing on Mr. Trump’s collapse, should it come. It might involve avoiding conflict with Mr. Trump, rather than trying to bring him down, in hopes of winning the former president’s supporters once he falters. It might involve attacking the other minor candidates, so as to emerge as the likeliest to capitalize on a potential Trump collapse. In time, it’s a strategy that might yield victory. For now, it might not look any different than fighting to take second place — the fight we’ll see on the debate stage.

    The debate strategy posted by a firm affiliated with the DeSantis-aligned super PAC Never Back Down contained some of this approach…….

    Mr. Ramaswamy might seem to rank far, far behind Mr. Trump on the list of challenges facing Mr. DeSantis, but not if he’s running a second-place strategy. ……

    It’s probably not fair to say that Mr. DeSantis is simply running a “second-place strategy.” ……
    ……….
    ………. But without Mr. Trump on the debate stage, it’s entirely appropriate to consider the campaign without him. That’s the race we have tonight. It may just be the race we have next year.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  250. Trump’s interview will not be rated

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/23/2023 @ 2:23 pm

    I mean comparing Nielsen ratings for the debate with number of views on Twitter for Trump’s tryst with Tucker.

    Both are measurable, and there will be numbers for both.

    norcal (3fd450)

  251. Any guesses as to the ratings breakdown between tonight’s debate and Tuckyo’s pre-recorded puff sitdown with Trump?

    norcal (3fd450) — 8/23/2023 @ 2:14 pm

    “Puff?” Why so cynical? I look forward to a fearless voice of neutrality sitting down with our once and future greatest, smartest and most selfless president, statesman, and moral authority… a man I’ll sleep well again when his steady and not at all deranged finger is back on the nuclear button. Who would miss that?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  252. I expect that most GOP primary voters will watch the Fox debate, if they watch anything. Even if they say they support Trump, they know in their hearts that it’s time to move on.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  253. Why so cynical?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 8/23/2023 @ 4:08 pm

    Hello Mr. Pot. My name is Kettle.

    norcal (3fd450)

  254. Even if they say they support Trump, they know in their hearts that it’s time to move on.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 4:18 pm

    I suspect only the most devout (i.e., dumbest) cultists will watch Tuckyo and skip the debate.

    norcal (3fd450)

  255. Even if they say they support Trump, they know in their hearts that it’s time to move on.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 4:18 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  256. @234 You can only fool some of the people (12%) all of the time. A. Lincoln. Its hard to like a blood sucking tick.

    asset (be39e1)

  257. @258 In their hearts they hate the same people trump hates. I am non-ignorant southern white trash democrat populist like sanders and AOC who are also populists who call themselves democratic socialists (not real socialists) and native american. I have lived around them all my 74 years I understand who they hate and why. Trump represents them and is their symbol.

    asset (be39e1)

  258. @260 See Barnum’s Laws.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  259. Putin will worry now every time he boards an aircraft. Karma is a bit*h.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  260. Putin will worry now every time he boards an aircraft. Karma is a bit*h.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 5:04 pm

    Easy fix. Just take family members of military leaders with him whenever he flies.

    norcal (3fd450)

  261. Easy fix. Just take family members of military leaders with him whenever he flies.

    That will probably deter Biden.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  262. Purported video of Prigozhin’s plane falling from the sky.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  263. Purported video of Prigozhin’s plane falling from the sky.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/23/2023 @ 5:30 pm

    It’s a long way down…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  264. Putin was coughing the other day, so they quietly (it was obvious though) dubbed a video of him addressing the BRICS gathering:

    https://www.newser.com/story/339312/putins-voice-bizarrely-dubbed-in-world-speech.html

    Vladimir Putin addressed a forum of leaders from Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa this week by video, and two odd things stand out from his BRICS speech. The first is the video address itself—Putin couldn’t attend the forum in Johannesburg in person because he would have risked arrest under a war crimes indictment from the International Criminal Court in the Hague, reports the Hill. But the second is the voice that emerged from the video, which clearly was not that of the Russian leader.

    Hip-Hop Artist in Myanmar Gets 20 Years for Speaking Out Symbol of Vietnam Tourism at Risk of Collapse Russia Has Bad News for US Journalist Doctor in Japan Kills Self After Working 100 Days Straight ‘This Is No Coincidence, Comrade’ BRICS Bloc Is Getting 6 New Members Treated Radioactive Wastewater Hits the Pacific Ocean Launch of Spy Satellite Failed Again, North Korea Says Mother Sentenced in Slaying of Her Newborn in 1992 Russia Confirms Prigozhin Was on Crashed Plane Chinese Dissident Flees Country on Jet Ski Austrian Climate Minister Pushes Public to Get Tattoos
    WORLD /
    VLADIMIR PUTIN
    Why, Vladimir, What an Oddly Deep Voice You Have
    His video address to BRICS forum appeared to ‘bizarrely’ make use of a deep-voiced alternate

    By John Johnson, Newser Staff
    Posted Aug 24, 2023 11:27 AM CDT

    Putin’s Voice ‘Bizarrely’ Dubbed in World Speech
    Russian President Vladimir Putin delivers his remarks via video during a meeting during the BRICS Summit in Johannesburg, South Africa, Thursday, Aug. 24, 2023. (Marco Longari/Pool via AP)
    camera-icon View 1 more image
    Vladimir Putin addressed a forum of leaders from Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa this week by video, and two odd things stand out from his BRICS speech. The first is the video address itself—Putin couldn’t attend the forum in Johannesburg in person because he would have risked arrest under a war crimes indictment from the International Criminal Court in the Hague, reports the Hill. But the second is the voice that emerged from the video, which clearly was not that of the Russian leader.

    story continues below

    “Bizarrely, the version of the video played to the summit in Johannesburg was dubbed by a voice actor who made the Kremlin chief sound like either a Hollywood villain, 1970s soul star Barry White, or a gangster being interviewed for a TV program whose voice had been dubbed to protect his identity,” per Politico. You can listen to a sample here. The Kremlin did not explain the dubbing. But the original version of the message that appeared on the Kremlin website featured Putin himself, and he was coughing a bit. The Kremlin apparently decided to try to improve things, Putin-style, in the version released to the summit. The Hill wonders if it was done via an AI-powered voice changer.

    As for the substance of his speech, Putin said Russia would resume its suspended grain-export deal with Ukraine if certain conditions—such as the lifting of sanctions—are met. During the summit, Putin sought generally to shore up support for Russia and to reiterate his allegation that the West is responsible for the war with Ukraine.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  265. 161. BuDuh (3f3b66) — 8/22/2023 @ 9:33 am

    would have never guessed which criminal you preferred but I should have known it was the one that, if true, takes bribes from communist China.

    Hunter Biden took a bribe, or maybe extorted money, from someone who’s now in the Chinese Gulag.

    Why should that make Joe Biden friendly to Xi Jingping?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  266. norcal (3fd450) — 8/23/2023 @ 2:42 pm

    I mean comparing Nielsen ratings for the debate with number of views on Twitter for Trump’s tryst with Tucker.

    Both are measurable, and there will be numbers for both.

    Tucker Carlson had, at one point, 130 million views on ex-Twitter.

    Not the same thing as unique persons viewing it for at least five minutes.

    I don;t know what ratings Fox got. I couldn’t hear it Neither Bloomberg radio nor WABC 770 broadcast the debate straight – and besides I was trying to watch Star Trek on Heroes and Icons – Legacy on TNG (featuring the character Tasha Yar’s sister) and Trials and Tribble-ations on DS9

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Legacy_(episode)

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Trials_and_Tribble-ations_(episode)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  267. The New York Times op-ed against elections was not for liberals, but cited William F. Buckley. It’s called sortition

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/21/opinion/elections-democracy.html

    The Worst People Run for Office.

    It’s Time for a Better Way.

    Aug. 21, 2023

    ….A lottery would also improve our odds of avoiding the worst candidates in the first place. When it comes to character, our elected officials aren’t exactly crushing it. To paraphrase William F. Buckley Jr., I’d rather be governed by the first 535 people in the phone book.

    It said we have this with the jury system, and it was used by Ireland for their 2012 constitutional convention, where they had 33 politicians and 66 randomly chosen citizens. France, Britain and Germany also ran lotteries to select citizens to work on climate change policies. (that’s bias)

    It’s not a good idea for filling posts, but perhaps could be used to seed people into primaries, or maybe give them money to contribute one time.

    Or maybe allow the lottery winner to pick a substitute candidate. Only a small fracton of people would be truly suitable.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  268. 263. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 5:04 pm

    Putin will worry now every time he boards an aircraft. Karma is a bit*h.

    The Wagner Group, or their media people, has threatened revenge,

    Two planes took off from Moscow. Only one was shot down or whatever.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  269. focus on the corruption of the individual in power. Your whataboutism to paper over it is noted.

    NJRob (0bc74c) — 8/21/2023 @ 8:21 am

    and

    Now do the DOJ and Hunter Biden. Come on. I know you can do it.

    NJRob (8d79b6) — 8/26/2023 @ 1:15 pm

    Is whataboutism good, Rob, or is it bad?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  270. Oops, wrong thread! (I’ll repost the question on this week’s thread.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)


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