Patterico's Pontifications

8/16/2023

Trump Has Fans

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:55 pm



And some of those fans are being charged with criminal threats:

Alvin, TX is about 30 minutes south of downtown Houston, Texas.

Enjoy your fifteen minutes of fame, Abigail Jo Shry.

294 Responses to “Trump Has Fans”

  1. There aren’t a lot of black folk in Alvin, TX (4%). During Jim Crow, it was illegal to be black in Alvin after sundown. It’s 38% Hispanic, 53% white.

    I suspect that Abigail Jo is going to be away from Alvin for a while.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  2. 18 USC 875. She’ll have five years to ponder her choices…

    Barry Jacobs (80af2f)

  3. Abigail sounds as hinged as that guy who got himself killed by the FBI in Utah last week.

    I suspect there will be more and more of these nutcases outing themselves as we get closer to the election.

    norcal (0ad108)

  4. Nobody told Abigail that there was this thing known as Caller ID which lets people know what phone number a call originates from. She’s a super bright one, she is.

    It is pretty sweet, though, how her last name is one of those rare words with a “y” doing vowel duty. Here’s a bit more on her; it’s a wonder that she and I never had a torrid romance.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  5. It’s a good bet she’s commonly known as “Abby,” so that “y” is doing double vowel duty.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  6. Violence is as american as cherry pie. “H rap Brown.” There are those who talk and there are those who act. See: timothy mcvey.

    asset (d78cb0)

  7. A month in pre-trial detention before her bond hearing. It might save her life and whatever is left of her sanity.

    No fancy rehab needed. Just Librium for a few days during withdrawal to calm the jitters and prevent seizures, and vitamin B-1 and folic acid supplements until her levels are back to normal.

    Cook County Jail does that for thousands of vagrants day in and day out. Her jail might even have regular AA meetings if she wants to make friends with Bill W.

    nk (dee41b)

  8. What about her right to free speech?! /sarc

    AJ_Liberty (0a9412)

  9. Goodness, now even voicemails are illegal…
    She sounds like one of those stupid drunks, who should’ve stuck to booty calls instead of the calls she made.
    While she deserves some time behind bars to ponder her transgressions, I’m more concerned with the right-wing nutjobs like the guy who whacked Mr. Pelosi.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  10. I suspect there will be more and more of these nutcases outing themselves as we get closer to the election.

    TBF, they have counterparts on the far left. Who will also be showing up. The Secret Service is going to get a workout, both with Trump and Biden, as election violence becomes a thing here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  11. Drunk dialing is as American as Budweiser.

    Her jail might even have regular AA meetings if she wants to make friends with Bill W.

    Most do. Local AA groups bring meetings in all the time, although they do suggest that those doing so not have warrants….

    Does it help? Sometimes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  12. You don’t have to be drunk to dislike the Honorable Ms Lee.

    Wikipedia:

    In 2003, Jackson Lee complained that storm names were too white. “All racial groups should be represented”, she said, and asked officials to “try to be inclusive of African-American names.”

    Speaking at the July 2010 NAACP national convention, Jackson Lee compared the Tea Party to the KKK

    In 2001, Jackson Lee and other House members objected to counting Florida’s electoral votes, which George W. Bush narrowly won after a contentious recount in the 2000 presidential election. Because no senator joined the objection, it was dismissed by Senate President Al Gore.[54]

    In 2005, Jackson Lee was one of the 31 House Democrats who voted not to count Ohio’s electoral votes in the 2004 presidential election.[55][56] Without Ohio’s electoral votes, the election would have been decided by the U.S. House of Representatives, with each state having one vote in accordance with the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

    During the 2017 United States Electoral College vote count, Jackson Lee objected to counting North Carolina’s, South Carolina’s and Wyoming’s electoral votes in the 2016 presidential election.[57] Because no senator joined her objections, they were dismissed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  13. I think growing violence is inevitable. We’ve irresponsibly created a pressure cooker that will embolden the crazy. You can’t stoke anger and fear 24/7 for ratings and donations and expect that no one will take it too seriously.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  14. Fun people have put members of the Fulton County Trump grand jury and their addresses on the web. This stands a good chance of ending badly.

    Appalled (4ebbae)

  15. Georgia law requires grand jury members to be listed in indictments, and they were so listed. Given that, it’s not that hard to get the addresses and/or phone numbers.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  16. #16 True. Unfortunate. But true. I don’t have much faith the Legislature will change the law.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  17. Fun people have put members of the Fulton County Trump grand jury and their addresses on the web. This stands a good chance of ending badly.

    Appalled (4ebbae) — 8/17/2023 @ 8:12 am

    Some in TrumpWorld are ok with it:

    Trump supporters don’t play the doxxing game……This is another false-flag aimed at making Trump supporters look bad. …….And the problem is? Being complicit to treason and supporting a domestic enemy is not very wise. ……..Enjoy the SUCK……. I hate to say it but we play way too nice. Trump supporters are pretty much good Boy Scouts. We’re playing against cutthroat people……..I have absolutely no qualms about doing back to the enemy what they have done and continue to do to us. ……..Taking out a President of the United States should be done in sunlight, not in some secret tribunal run by government parasites. ……..FBI/ CIA faking a website to create another reason to say Trump incites violence. ………it fits the efforts of the Left to start their own Reichstag Fire. ……Good. About time we started street fighting with these filth……..Do you think Trump should have been charged? If not, jurors are fair game to even out justice. ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. An unpleasantly large part of the Trumpist base wants me dead. There are reasons why I feel vaguely unsafe in large chunks of the country.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  19. @19

    And that type of polarization is increasing. There are folks who want Christians dead, too. Or white people, for that matter. asset wants me (or at least “people like me”) in a camp. The hate is increasing, and the hatemongers are fattening their wallets.

    “Nothing personal, it’s just business.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  20. It’s beginning to feel like Weimar.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  21. > It’s beginning to feel like Weimar.

    The relationship between left-leaning tribes and right-leaning tribes feels a LOT like the last days of my marriage, when it was super hard for either of us to give the other one the benefit of the doubt or any sense of grace, and small things triggered reactions that were based on and magnified by the memory of old hurts.

    In my marriage we couldn’t get through it without divorcing (we tried for close to a dozen years) and now we’re good friends, but I don’t understand how the country can successfully divorce. Before 2017 I thought it was fixable without a divorce, after 2020-2021 I no longer do.

    I am seriously worried that within a generation we get to mass killings.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  22. There is a basic problem in our system: All representatives are chosen from single-winner districts that, even if not gerrymandered, amplify polarization. The number of citizens who feel unconnected to government is too high. This is part of Trump’s attraction, as witnessed by this lady who seems to dislike her Congresswoman. I doubt that Sheila Jackson Lee cares much for these constituents, either.

    California has tried, several times, to alter its system to reduce polarization, and has utterly failed. Not only did they not solve the gerrymanders, the “citizen’s commission” is such a partisan fraud that it actually INCREASED gerrymanders. Nor did the “top two” jungle primary work. Nor did term limits.

    California is now going to go to a “Top Five” jungle primary, partly for partisan reasons (fear of Democrats being locked out if they split their vote among too many Democrats). And partly from a desire to offer alternatives at the general election.

    But they still will have many districts where large numbers of citizens will not have any real voice, and can become disaffected.

    My humble proposal:

    Go to the “Top Five” system, in the current districts, with all voters casting ONE vote. But the top two candidates in the general election are both elected. This would double the number of legislators, of course, but in a state where there are 40 million people this is overdue anyway.

    The benefits: Any sizable organized minority, whether party or ethnicity, has a good shot at representation. Voters are far more likely to get a representative they voted for. And gerrymanders are nearly useless, and making then useless seems a sure-fire way to get rid of them.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  23. > California is now going to go to a “Top Five” jungle primary

    Source on that? This can’t be done without a ballot initiative, there is no such initiative currently qualified (https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ballot-measures/qualified-ballot-measures), nor is there one circulating (https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ballot-measures/initiative-and-referendum-status/initiatives-referenda-cleared-circulation), nor is there one pending titling (https://www.oag.ca.gov/initiatives/active-measures).

    > Nor did the “top two” jungle primary work.

    I’m gonna disagree with that — the goal of that wasn’t statewide races, it was *legislative* races, and the legislature has gotten substantially more functional and less polarized since 2010.

    > This would double the number of legislators, of course, but in a state where there are 40 million people this is overdue anyway.

    I would support increasing the number of legislators substantially. One state Senator cannot menaingfully represent a million people, and everyone would feel more connected to their government if representatives represented a small enough population that the representative was at most two degrees of seperation away.

    Increasing the size of legislative bodies is probably the single best thing we could do to restore trust in government.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  24. I’m gonna disagree with that — the goal of that wasn’t statewide races, it was *legislative* races, and the legislature has gotten substantially more functional and less polarized since 2010.

    No, it has not. The state Senate is 75% Democrat and the Assembly is 78% Democrat. It is “more functional” because the minor party can be totally ignored. The statewide vote is never 75-25, not even when Trump is running. Newsom won re-election in 2022 59-41, which is the typical split in the last 15 years.

    The last reapportionment had a “citizen’s commission” composed not 5-5-5 D/R/I but closer to 10-2-2 (one independent resigned) due to the Democrats gaming the appointments. I read their bios and most were clearly left-of-center (e.g. a DEI professional as a Republican). They increased Democrat representation by carving majority Hispanic districts out of previously diverse ones, and bragged about “increasing minority representation.”

    How a 75-25 legislature is less polarized than it was in 2010 (65-35 assembly, 60-40 senate) is hard to fathom. It may be more functional as 2/3rds votes are easy now and the minority’s only defense is the (hahahahha) 9th Circuit and California Courts.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. You’re talking about the *redistricting commission* here, i’m talking about the *top two primary*. The intent was that in districts where one party predominated overwhelmingly, rather than having the more extreme candidate win the primary and then cakewalk the general, the more moderate candidate (of the dominant party) would make it to the general and (a) would have a chance while (b) forcing the more extreme candidate to moderate their positions.

    This has happened. It’s why (for example) we have the relatively pro-business pro-development Scott Weiner representing San Francisco rather than the much more pro-labor anti-development Jane Kim.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  26. As for “Top 5”, well they were talking about a while back. I guess they didn’t go for it. They should. Top Two isn’t working. Also, you need it for a multi-representative system, which is absolutely imperative.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-06-09/california-top-two-primary-tenth-anniversary-offers-few-promised-results-news-analysis

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  27. pro-business pro-development Scott Weiner

    Pull the other one. He is absolutely hated in all of Southern Cal, no matter the politics, as he is if anything anti-single-family housing which is beloved by the middle class. They are putting up 6 story apartment buildings on lots abutting one-story houses, and not requiring parking (which means that the neighborhood street parking gets flooded with cars from the new apartments).

    I hope he runs for governor.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  28. You’re talking about the *redistricting commission* here, i’m talking about the *top two primary*

    No we are talking about polarization in the Legislature and disaffection by the public, both of which are more pronounced. A 78-22 seat split from a 60-40 electorate is evidence of a crooked system.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  29. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/17/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    The
    That goes with the overwhelming Democratic Party dominance in voter registration in California, and where they are located. As of February 10, 2023:

    Democrats 46.89%

    Republicans 23.83%

    No Party Preference 22.48%

    Minor Parties 6.81%

    The California legislature is dominated by Democrats because the number their registered voters (hence number of districts) in urban counties exceed those in the Republican dominated rural counties. If you look at registrations in the 10 highest counties for each party, you don’t need to look up their populations, it is self-evident:

    Democratic Registration

    San Francisco 63.17%
    Marin 62.30%
    Alameda 60.38%
    Santa Cruz 60.09%
    Sonoma 56.84%
    San Mateo 56.27%
    Contra Costa 53.81%
    Los Angeles 53.50%
    Monterey 52.46%
    Yolo 51.37%

    Republican Registration

    Lassen 55.91%
    Modoc 55.20%
    Shasta 49.71%
    Tehama 47.29%
    Amador 47.19%
    Calaveras 46.34%
    Mariposa 45.73%
    Glenn 44.77%
    Sierra 44.48%
    Tuolumne 44.33%

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. Democrat fringe pitched a fit in 2017 and GOP fringe pitched a bigger fit in 2021. The trend line shows that the loser in 2024 will pitch the biggest fit yet.

    steveg (5a4755)

  31. Voter registration by California counties, all parties.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  32. Unsurprising:

    The Fulton County Sheriff’s Office said Thursday that it was investigating online threats against the grand jurors who voted this week to indict former President Donald J. Trump and 18 others, accusing them of conspiring to overturn Georgia’s 2020 election results.
    ………
    The county sheriff’s office said in a statement that it was aware of online threats against grand jurors and was working with other agencies to track down their origin. It did not answer inquiries about whether any jurors had reported harassment.
    ……….
    On Truth Social, the social media platform founded by Mr. Trump — who has himself lashed out at prosecutors, judges and private citizens who have sued him — many users reposted the names. In one response to a list of several jurors, a user urged others to make them “infamous” and to “make sure they can’t walk down the street.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. > Pull the other one. He is absolutely hated in all of Southern Cal, no matter the politics, as he is if anything anti-single-family housing which is beloved by the middle class. They are putting up 6 story apartment buildings on lots abutting one-story houses, and not requiring parking (which means that the neighborhood street parking gets flooded with cars from the new apartments).

    In San Francisco politics, he is the *conservative* because *the progressives* want to build only “affordable” housing and he’s basically saying — remove constraints that are preventing housing construction, get government out of the way, let the market work.

    He was only able to get elected because of the top two primary; without that, the progressive anti-developer candidate would have won the primary and would have defeated whoever the Republicans put up.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  34. RIP Murdock — in the bay area, and in Los Angeles county (outside of Palmdale/Lancaster), the Republican label is toxic — it’s so badly damaged that the Republican candidate can’t even get a fair hearing from the electorate.

    It’s sort of the inverse of the situation you see in rural Texas.

    aphrael (71d87c)

  35. 65% of Santa Barbara County voters who chose to vote, went for Biden. in 2016 61% went for Clinton. We have a large percentage of people who consider themselves to be independent voters that would never vote for a Republican

    steveg (5a4755)

  36. DEI has fans, too:

    Request was made to divert water to fight Maui fire

    Apparently the permission was not forthcoming, due to equity concerns.

    According to the letter, although the initial fire was contained at 9 a.m., there were reports of fallen power lines, fierce winds, outages and low reservoir levels, prompting the company to reach out to the commission to request approval to divert more water from streams so it could store as much water as possible for fire control.

    Instead of approving the request, CWRM asked the company whether the Maui Fire Department had requested permission to dip into the reservoirs and directed it to first inquire with the downstream user to ensure that his loi and other uses would not be impacted by a temporary reduction of water supply.

    Communications were spotty, the letter said, and the company had already tried unsuccessfully to contact the one downstream user.

    By around 3:30 p.m., a flare-up had shut down the Lahaina Bypass.

    “At around 6:00 p.m., we received CWRM’s approval to divert more water,” Tremble wrote. “By then, we were unable to reach the siphon release to make the adjustments that would have allowed more water to fill our reservoirs.

    “We watched the devastation unfold around us without the ability to help. We anxiously awaited the morning knowing that we could have made more water available to MFD if our request had been immediately approved,” he said.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  37. 65% of Santa Barbara County voters who chose to vote, went for Biden. in 2016 61% went for Clinton. We have a large percentage of people who consider themselves to be independent voters that would never vote for a Republican

    Which is how the CA redistricting commission gets unbalanced. CA also has life-long Republicans who never can seem to vote for a Republican. Issues.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  38. In San Francisco politics, he is the *conservative*

    That does not actually make him a conservative.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  39. it’s so badly damaged that the Republican candidate can’t even get a fair hearing from the electorate.

    It’s worse than that, as so few people pay attention to local TV or news any more. They just vote for Team D or Team R. There is really no public square in today’s media market.

    Whenever I have visitors from CA, I make a point of buying gas when we go somewhere. They are always surprised at the prices. We all have our bubbles, I guess.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  40. aphrael,

    stop and consider though: Suppose in whatever legislative district you live in, if the top two candidates were both elected, wouldn’t it provide more people with a connection to government AND some moderation?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  41. KevinM
    Hawaiian water law is interesting. A “Loi” is a Taro farm and in the situation described must be a loi that has appurtenant rights dating for the 1848 Mahale

    Types of Water Rights
    Riparian rights are attached to land adjacent to a stream and they allow beneficial use that does not
    substantially diminish the natural flow. In its decisions, the Hawai`i Supreme Court qualified these rights
    by stating that use must be reasonable and not lead to actual harm to another riparian land owner’s
    reasonable use of the waters (Miike, 2004). The state allows riparian water transfer to other users or
    watersheds, though this is not protected as a right and may be enjoined (McBryde; State Water Code).
    Appurtenant rights are those that accompany a parcel of land, which in the context of Hawaiian history
    means that the parcel received diverted stream flow at the time of the Māhele (1848). Most commonly,
    these were taro farms. Appurtenant rights are not restricted to the growing of taro and may be applied
    to other beneficial uses (Miike, 2004). Appurtenant rights are preserved and not cancellable by the state
    (Hawaii Administrative Rules §13-171-27
    )
    Correlative rights are analogous to riparian rights but for the groundwater underneath a parcel. All
    landowners that overly a given aquifer have equal rights to use groundwater. Water may be withdrawn
    to the extent that it does not produce actual harm to the water rights of other users (either
    groundwater or interconnected surface water; Reppun v. Board of Water Supply). Correlative rights
    allow the transfer of water to other users, so long as such use does not interfere with the use of other
    overlying parties.
    2
    Also, potentially superseding all of the above rights are Native Hawaiian water rights. The state
    constitution (Chapter XII, Section 7) protects “all rights, customarily and traditionally exercised for
    subsistence, cultural and religious purposes” for descendants of native Hawaiians. Thus, water uses that
    impact those customs and traditions could be restricted.

    steveg (5a4755)

  42. stop and consider though: Suppose in whatever legislative district you live in, if the top two candidates were both elected, wouldn’t it provide more people with a connection to government AND some moderation?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/17/2023 @ 4:45 pm

    Only if you made the districts larger; otherwise you would have 80 state senators and 160 Assembly members in California. But such an arrangement would probably not reduce the partisanship in either house. It would result in 64 Democrats and 16 Republicans in the State Senate, and 124 Democrats and 36 Republicans in the State Assembly. Not an improvement.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. DeSantis debate prep leaked. Told to defend Trump against Christie. Attack Ramaswamy. Attack Media. Highlight major policies.

    AJ_Liberty (5fd348)

  44. Biden has fans?

    An Illinois woman has been charged with allegedly threatening to kill former President Donald Trump and his youngest son, Barron Trump, 17.

    Tracy Marie Fiorenza was charged with Transmitting Threats to Kill or Injure Another Person in Interstate Commerce in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 875(c) after allegedly sending threatening emails to an educational institution in Palm Beach County, Florida.

    Charging documents state that on May 21, 2023, she emailed the institution’s headmaster and said in the email: “I will state that I will shoot Donald Trump Sr. AND Barron Trump straight in the face at any opportunity that I get!”

    Two weeks later, on June 5, 2023, Fiorenza allegedly emailed the same headmaster again, writing: “‘I am going to slam a bullet in Baron Trump’s head with his father IN SELF DEFENSE!’”

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  45. Glad to see you avoided the re-education camps and can still post. In north carolina and texas they agree that to many democrats are voting. The republican legislature has passed a bill limiting the counting of mail in ballots making registration to vote far more difficult and allowing republican poll watchers like sheriff posse to challenge black voters. In texas legislature has taken over the election from county and make their own rules to vote in that county.

    asset (5ad203)

  46. Only if you made the districts larger; otherwise you would have 80 state senators and 160 Assembly members in California.

    That was already a postulate. There are too few legislators for 40 million people. Little New Hampshire has 400 in the lower house. That’s like one per block. New Mexico (with 2 million people) has about the same size legislature as CA (42 & 70). The size of a legislature has little to do with their spending.

    But you totally misread everything anyway. Each voter picks ONE, not TWO — it’s not a slate election. Vote for ONE, TWO elected. So in a swing district you get one of each, or one Hispanic and one not, or maybe two Ds in some places, but one more moderate, so your simple doubling of everything is silly.

    The WHOLE POINT is to make gerrymanders useless and to give voters in each district at least one representative that shares their concerns.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  47. Told to defend Trump against Christie.

    Loyal to the end.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  48. @46: No they did not.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  49. BuDuh (4214e4) — 8/17/2023 @ 9:07 pm

    I must have missed Biden’s social media posts attacking Barron Trump.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  50. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/18/2023 @ 12:17 am

    Your whole proposal is silly. Gerrymandering is as American as apple pie. And I doubt there is voter support for a “ Vote for ONE, TWO elected” plan. Why would anyone vote for someone if there is a chance the second candidate would be from a party they don’t support?

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  51. Oh lawd… I hope they find that caller and prosecute to the absolute fullest extent of the law.

    Totally unacceptable.

    whembly (5f7596)

  52. Your whole proposal is silly. Gerrymandering is as American as apple pie.

    So was lynching. Can we not fix ANYTHING?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  53. So was lynching. Can we not fix ANYTHING?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/18/2023 @ 8:31 am

    That’s an ugly comparison. Lynching involved the murder of human beings, which is hardly comparable to how political districts are drawn.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  54. That’s an ugly comparison.

    Are you talking about this?

    I must have missed Biden’s social media posts attacking Barron Trump.

    Apparently life has less value in some circumstances.

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  55. BuDuh (ed9042) — 8/18/2023 @ 9:10 am

    Don’t be dense. I quoted KevinM’s post at 8:31 am about lynching.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  56. I must have missed Biden’s social media posts attacking Barron Trump.

    Apparently life has less value in some circumstances.

    BuDuh (ed9042) — 8/18/2023 @ 9:10 am

    But in response to your post about Barron Trump (#45), you clearly patterned the title (“Biden has fans”) after Patterico’s title to this thread (“Trump has fans”). There is no comparison. Trump has frequently posted on social media hostile attacks on Judge Chutkan, while Biden has done no such thing at all.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  57. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/18/2023 @ 9:28 am

    To anyone, much less Barron Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. Hit a nerve.

    🎯

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  59. BuDuh (ed9042) — 8/18/2023 @ 9:40 am

    Not really, just being factual.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said: “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  61. LOL

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  62. Rip, you’re letting Buduh troll you with a bad faith comparison.

    Time123 (7f89ef)

  63. Rip, you’re letting Buduh troll you with a bad faith comparison.

    Time123 (7f89ef) — 8/18/2023 @ 9:52 am

    I know, but I do enjoy pointing out his falsehoods.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  64. What you enjoy doing is misquoting and then acting high and mighty with while preaching against your falsehood.
    Study your 9:28.

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  65. Trump has fans, and Bernie has fans, many of whom in both tribes that follow them with practically a religious fervor.
    Biden may have fans, but they’re not fanatics by and large, which is why BuDuh’s equivalency is a bogus one.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  66. @66 tbf, there are Democrat fans, irrespectives of the actual person.

    whembly (5f7596)

  67. I agree that both sides have their collection of nuts that will call for violence. Heck, asset regularly seems to applaud it when a Lefty over-heats his rhetoric…or when BLM turns it into action. But to this point, Biden does not use rhetoric that encourages “getting” anyone….ie, he’s not threatening the Special Prosecutor or promising retribution as “the Big Guy”. Trump does. And this in part is what results from continuing to ratchet up the rhetoric on culture wars and demonizing your ideological opponents.

    There are no doubt those on the Left…hyped up by MSNBC over-coverage….that want Trump dead. Who’s on trial though?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  68. Biden is just as disgusting if not more.

    Here’s one of my favs:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UilzDRQXES4
    Joe Biden said that he wishes he and Donald Trump were in high school and he could take Trump “behind the gym.”

    This attempt to down play how Joe Biden is “as bad as…” really gets my hackles up. Biden is a disgusting human being who has no business in office.

    whembly (5f7596)

  69. Really? Trump wants everyone else to fight for him. He only fights if you give him money or votes.

    DRJ (70bbed)

  70. And why did Biden want to take Trump behind the gym? Googling tells me it was in response to Trump’s crude Access Hollywood comments. Now, it doesn’t excuse the coarsening of the debate, but a lot of fathers might agree if someone like Trump went up to their daughter and grabbed her by the pu$$y because someone is a “star”, then the SOB probably deserved an a$$ kicking. Trump wants people to get attacked who disagree with him. On what plain is Biden’s behavior more disgusting or have we simply given up on proportionality and literacy?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  71. An Illinois woman has been charged with allegedly threatening to kill former President Donald Trump and his youngest son, Barron Trump, 17.

    Barron? Why Barron?

    nk (a80e97)

  72. DeSantis debate prep leaked. Told to defend Trump against Christie. Attack Ramaswamy. Attack Media. Highlight major policies.

    I’ll take that with a grain of salt Faux News just as likely “leaking” fake news to build up drama and generate interest in third-place entertainment runner-up after Plan Nine From Outer Space and My Mother The Car.

    nk (a80e97)

  73. nk (a80e97) — 8/18/2023 @ 12:53 pm

    Other news outlets are reporting the same, the NYT was the first to report it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  74. Fair point, Rob.

    Do you see Biden and Trump as morally equivalent?

    DRJ (47a6d6)

  75. RIP Senator James Buckley (100).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  76. Do you see Biden and Trump as morally equivalent?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V4PLSPvJ9BY

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  77. It’s a phony threat, or rather a threat of phony crimes.

    action.

    It’s set 1 1/2 years into the future, and then. instead of saying that if Trump gets elected in 2024 “we are coming to kill you” it says that if Trump doesn’t get elected they are coming to kill you.

    It’s as phony as threats from the government of China that steps to defend Taiwan make war more likely.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  78. JVW (1ad43e) — 8/16/2023 @ 11:37 pm

    one of those rare words with a “y” doing vowel duty.

    They’re not rare. There’s a significant number of them in WORDLE – the other day the word was EMPTY.

    And then sometimes the letter Y modifies a vowel, as does the letter “W” or “H”

    Examples: “they” “away”

    Y is used as a vowel not so many times in the middle of a word.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  79. Apparently Buduh does, although he wont say it so who knows. What about you, Rob?

    DRJ (47a6d6)

  80. So Buduh, do you view groping as equivalent to rape?

    DRJ (47a6d6)

  81. In 2003, Jackson Lee complained that storm names were too white

    Is it really better for someone for storms to be named, or sound like they’re named after people?

    There was a Hurricane Ike, and now California is about to be hit by Hurricane Hilary. (One “L” like is more standard. It’s a British name I think..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  82. 75:

    From the NYT

    A firm associated with the super PAC that has effectively taken over Mr. DeSantis’s presidential campaign posted online hundreds of pages of blunt advice, research memos and internal polling in early nominating states to guide the Florida governor ahead of the high-stakes Republican presidential debate next Wednesday in Milwaukee.

    They’re not allowed to co-ordinate so that would be why this free advice was posted online.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  83. @76

    Fair point, Rob.

    Do you see Biden and Trump as morally equivalent?

    DRJ (47a6d6) — 8/18/2023 @ 1:03 pm

    Obviously I’m not Rob.

    But I’ll expand on this.

    I think they’re bad for totally different reasons. So “morally”, to me a better descriptor is that it’s a “wash” between the two.

    That’s why I’m solely focusing on policies.

    But, we’ve discussed this before in the past… I have another rationale as to why we should support the GOP nominee, even if it’s Trump:

    Judges.

    Trump’s 1st term of judicial nominations (and GOP Senate), had paid untold dividends in recent memory. I don’t think anyone can dispute that.

    We’re going to get likely multi-decades of Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, and Barrett, that’s going to give progressives a hard time of pushing their agendas via judicial fiat, when they fail in Congress.

    Both Justice Thomas and Justice Alito (to certain extent, Chief Roberts) are no spring chicken, and the danger here, is that if they retire/dies during the next POTUS administration, a Democrat POTUS could shift the courts back to the progressive side.

    I think it’s totally justifiable, just in 2015 when voting against Hillary Clinton, to vote for a GOP candidate, even if its Trump, to defend against the progressive all-out-assault at SCOTUS.

    Me, personally, I’m voting for the GOP candidate, period…because of my son’s best friend’s death due to lax border policies. But, even if that hadn’t happened, this is how I’d justify voting FOR Trump if he’s the nominee.

    But, Trump isn’t the strongest GOP candidate in the General Election. I see the class of DeSantis/Christie/Haley/Scott of the world having an easier time in the General than Trump, and I don’t want to risk a losing Trump in 2024. That’s why I’m agitating for a strong primary for someone like the after mentioned non-Trump candidates to catch fire when primary votings begins.

    whembly (5f7596)

  84. What sort of groping did you see in that video, DRJ?

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  85. Biden likes ice cream. Or could it be payola? The last time he didn’t mention a brand name.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R177jaHxFA

    Previously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esQXL8FBq4c

    I scream, you scream,we all scream for ice cream.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  86. Someone told me about a movie in which he said the interesting thing was that a woman marries a person who was now dead.

    Said he thought the name was High Voltage, and said it contained no curse words or sex.

    But I can’t verify the movie. Anyone know the title of this movie? I think he said he saw it on his iPad.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  87. Maybe you can describe what is going after the 4min mark and close to the 4min 30sec mark?

    Would this would potentially apply?
    http://dccode.elaws.us/code?no=22-3005

    Do you think it could be even worse that he was “groping” the breast of a child? Is she about 7 years old?

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  88. Latest meme: Biden called into a meeting Hunter had with Burisma people in Dubai in December 2015, and three days later he visited Kiev and caused the (immediate?) firing of the prosecutor who was investigating Burisma

    Problems: Devon archer has said that in such encounters, Joe Biden never (when he was present) discussed more than generalies.

    Shokin was not considered a problem by Burisma, according to Archer.

    Shokin was not fired in December. There was vote by the Ukrainian Parliament in March. 2016, Joe Biden’s tall tale told to the Council on Foreign Relations on January 23,2018(there was a beta version also in an interview with the Atlantic published online with the August 2016 issue) . was originally put in in March 2016; then the Washington Post moved it to December because that was the last previous trip by Biden to Ukraine.

    Additional loan guarantees were not going to be awarded at the time of Biden’s trip – they were not until the beginning of June 2016, after the Ukrainian Parliament passed a package of U.S. endorsed anti-corruption legislation. Biden was not in Ukraine then,.

    Nobody on right wing talk radio checks a single thing.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  89. Donald Trump’s inactive twitter account was subpoenaed for Direct Messages, deleted tweets and drafts.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  90. Biden had more than one private email addresses

    Hunter would be kept apprised of his father’s travel schedule by a Biden aide who cc’d him about ten times.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  91. I thinkviolence was endorsed too easily here:

    https://patterico.substack.com/p/fine-ill-write-about-the-federal

    If I lived in Russia, I would feel justified in putting a bullet in Vladimir Putin’s brain. Does that statement startle you?

    No,because Putin has killed people and is on a course todo more

    Good. It is my goal to wake you up. It is not hyperbole and it is not an exaggeration. Killing him would be an absolutely justifiable act. When an election becomes an impossible way to get rid of the guy in power, the only option left is force. And by force, I mean: any force necessary. Including killing the guy at the top.

    In fact, I have said before that this is the sort of sentiment that motivated the people who attacked the Capitol on January 6, 2021. This is not a terribly popular opinion, but I think that if they had been correct in their beliefs that the election had been blatantly stolen, violence was indeed the only option. The reason that crowd’s actions were indefensible is that they were acting on the basis of a lie. If they had been acting on a genuinely accurate belief that the election had really been stolen from the citizenry, they would truly have had no other choice but to storm the seat of government power. Again: when you take the option of an election away, violence is all that is left.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  92. The NY Daly News confrmed Mon and Turs that NYCis ibdeed segregating the forreign homeless from the NYCchomeless

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  93. Show me a mob of antifa rioters decked out in Biden gear. Show me a psycho who threatens to kill a judge and her family if Biden doesn’t win the election. Show me a single violent leftist who says he committed his crimes on orders from Joe Biden. Show me those things and we can talk about equivalence.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  94. Regarding presidential candidates and their fanatical followers, I think Zeihan has it right.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  95. You worry me, Buduh.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  96. Interesting, Paul. It makes sense.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  97. You worry me, Buduh.

    DRJ (8d831d) — 8/18/2023 @ 4:03 pm

    But Biden doesn’t…

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  98. Zeihan concludes his video with complete lack of knowledge of this: https://www.vox.com/2018/10/3/17930092/usmca-mexico-nafta-trump-trade-deal-explained

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  99. I have expressed dismay at things Biden is doing, but you are not willing to answer straight-forward questions. You have no interest in discussion, only scoring points that only you care about.

    Why should I listen to you, let alone look for common ground?

    DRJ (8d831d)

  100. Agreed.

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  101. So Trump’s version of NAFTA encourages more unionization? No wonder Biden likes it.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  102. You agree you are just here to score points?

    DRJ (8d831d)

  103. Allow me to elaborate, DRJ. Of all the people I disagree with here you are the only one I think I would be able to have a good time being around personally. I should give your questions the real engagement that they deserve but I tire of the mop up brigade coming in with their ankle bites. I then let my comments fly like a swatter.

    You are a good and decent person and I really mean that. But I just don’t want to play on this website anymore.

    I am going to do my best and quit this addiction for real this time. Take care, DRJ.

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  104. This is another reason that I don’t want to engage:

    So Trump’s version of NAFTA encourages more unionization? No wonder Biden likes it.

    What was Zeihan claim against Trump at the end of his video? If Zeihan was correct then how do you explain USMCA?

    Also revealing is the complaint about unions getting a handout. Schrodinger’s Trump. He is both a bad guy for going it alone like a narcissist cowboy as well as being a bad guy for working with his opponents.

    It is kobiashi maru around her and it is depressing.

    BuDuh (ed9042)

  105. I dont remember what Zeohan said about NAFTA but, in general, I thought his point was that Trump tweeted his trade policies but had trouble implementing them — except renegotiating NAFTA. I think Zeohan also said that Biden was systematically adopting Trump’s populist economic policies into his agenda and putting them into law.

    So I was sincere when I said it is not surprising Biden might support Trump’s NAFTA renegotiation because it encouraged unionization.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  106. Your Vox link regarding Trump’s NAFTA agreement says it encourages unionization in Mexico.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  107. I do feel like we are living the Kobayashi Maru with Trump in charge. He doesn’t want to destroy the Constitution but he doesn’t care if it happens.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  108. One, BuDuh, Trump made a few tweaks to NAFTA, which puts the lie to his claim that it was “the worst trade deal ever made”. If it was so terrible, why did it change so little?

    Two, Zeihan is familiar with Trump’s trade deal (Part I and Part II).

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  109. There have been allegations of sexual improprieties about many modern Presidents and politicians. I wouldn’t let any of them babysit my children, but I would vote for many of them.

    But some politicians are immoral/amoral to the point they don’t care about anyone but themselves. In any choice between their interests and the county’s, the country will always lose. Our only hope is that they don’t have many of those choices. Noxon was that way. Bill Clinton was, and Obama may have been. After January 6, Trump definitely is.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  110. I want to secure the border, too, whembly. People are dying because of illegal immigration. But we can’t sacrifice the Constitution to do it, and that is what will happen if Trump is President. We know that after January 6.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  111. Thank you Rip @75 and Sammy @84.

    I guess, then, that they don’t want Meatball Ron DeSanctimonious to burn his bridges with Trump supporters if Trump is knocked out of the race.

    nk (a80e97)

  112. I watched BuDuh’s video. I’m not quite sure it shows what he suggests, though there’s been enough groping complaints over the years about Biden…plus hair sniffing…that Joe deserves a bit of a creeper rep. Again, Biden is testimony to the shallowness of the Democrat bench. He’s also testimony to how much of a layup 2024 should be for the GOP.

    Still, I know who I would unanimously crown king of the creepers, but what’s the point? The GOP faithful seem unwilling to honestly look at who they are elevating above DeSantis, Haley, Scott, Pence, et al. If Biden bowed out tomorrow, the same lying-cheating-law breaking-problem persists on the Right. You have a candidate who is cratering with moderates and independents….and MAGA people just don’t care. All the oxygen is spent on imagining the next great Biden flaw….as if he’s-just-as-bad somehow innoculates Trump. Nobody fears Biden becoming an authoritarian. No one fears Biden not listening to his advisors.

    AJ_Liberty (2efe2c)

  113. @113, yes, everything is resting on the courts or God giving a good enema to the party. I think DeSantis has the wrong read on the base. I think they are fine with conflict and hard ball. Right now Ron seems to meek. I don’t think they respect that…

    AJ_Liberty (2efe2c)

  114. Whembly, it sucks a lot that your son’s friend died. It’s terrible and it shouldn’t have happened. And I know that you are probably terrified for your own son. And I know that you need to be angry at the democrats because you need to be angry at someone and you can’t be angry at a person who you cared about and is now gone. And I know that what I say won’t make any difference to you. But he died because he went out and bought drugs from an untrustworthy source. Voting for Trump won’t bring him back and it won’t save your son or other young men like him from their own decisions. Vote for Trump if you want to vote for Trump, but it won’t make your boy safe any more than taking your shoes off in the airport makes you safe from terrorists.

    Nic (896fdf)

  115. DrJ,

    yes I do. They are both sleezebags. One at least pushes policies I support.

    NJRob (47bfc9)

  116. Got it. I understand that, Rob. Thank you for saying that.

    I am not disagreeing with you. You may be right but Trump’s ego and authoritarianism scares me more than Biden’s policies. I think Biden isn’t capable and won’t get many of his policies implemented. We saw it the last 4 years and I think it will continue.

    I think Trump will be ready to weaponize every aspect of government to do his bidding, and I don’t think policies are high on his list of things he wants to do. Satisfying his desire for money and revenge will be his policies.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  117. DRJ,

    and Biden scares me much more. He has the support of the Pravda media and the entire DC institutional class working to aid him and cover for him while Trump had the same people undermining him and working against him every step of the way.

    Are we worse off now than we were 4 years ago?

    NJRob (47bfc9)

  118. I hear you. My community is worse under Biden but IMO America is worse under Trump because he doesn’t understand the importance of the Constitution and the Rule of Law. He undermines them like the dictator he wants to be.

    It is exactly what the Democrats have done to the legal system in California, but he did it on a national scale. I don’t know if we recover from that if he is elected. The Rule of Law only works if people abide by it. It isn’t a light switch you can turn on and off when you feel like it. Once it is gone, it’s gone.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  119. How is the rule of law better under Biden?

    NJRob (60811e)

  120. In 2016, I voted for Trump because securing the border would help Texas. Now I am far more concerned about America because it never occurred to me that any President would do what he did — undermine the legality of our elections — the one thing that can destroy America.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  121. Whistleblowers were cannonized under Trump and led to an impeachment while they are fired under Biden with no repercussions.

    NJRob (60811e)

  122. Biden does not subvert the system. Trump did.

    Some people say Trump only did what Gore did. That is not true. Gore used the courts and the court process. He reluctantly accepted the ultimate decision of the Supreme Court.

    Trump designated lawyers to go to court but took little interest in the results, which were uniformly bad for him. He spent his time subverting the election authorities and process. That is antithetical to the Rule of Law.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  123. We can talk about specific whistleblowers if you want. Give me a name, but let me clearly state that any unfair or unjust legal result for a specific person can never undermine the Rule of Law the way Trump did. The legal system is not perfect. There are injustices that can occur, but Trump subverted the system.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  124. Subvert means to undermine the power and authority of an established system or institution, e.g., the Rule of Law.

    Trump is like the child who crosses his fingers and yells “King’s X” anytime he is losing. He thinks the rules of the game don’t apply to him. When that happens, there are no rules.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  125. To put it in terms even Trump might understand: Trump wants a mulligan on everything. There is no game of golf if there are unlimited mulligans

    DRJ (8d831d)

  126. A DOD investigation found that the Trump Administration took adverse actions against Alexander Vindman following his testimony during the first Trump impeachment.

    While serving at the NSC, (Vindman) made protected communications alleging that former President Trump violated U.S. laws when President Trump asked a foreign government to investigate allegations against former Vice President and Democratic presidential candidate JosephR .Biden Jr.,his political opponent. (Vindman) made additional protected communications when he reported that NSC officials engaged in sexist behavior, misused their positions, and misused NSC staff by asking them to perform personal errands. Finally, (Vindman) made protected communications when he reported that NSC officials violated the Antideficiency Act. (Vindman’s) protected communications included several to his chain of command.

    We found, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that the Complainant was the subject of unfavorable personnel actions from administration officials, as defined by section 1034, title 10, United States Code (10 U.S.C. § 1034), “Protected communications; prohibition of retaliatory personnel actions.”Furthermore, we concluded based on a preponderance of the evidence, that these actions would not have occurred or been withheld absent (Vindman’s) protected communications.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  127. DRJ,

    the entire team investigating Hunter was disbanded after the whistleblower announced his findings.

    NJRob (60811e)

  128. Rip,

    nonresponsive.

    NJRob (60811e)

  129. I think most Trump voters see injustices that benefit other politicians, mostly Democrats, and they think “Why shouldn’t my guy get a break, too?” I get that.

    But Trump is hurting the foundation of our system. What makes everything work is that we chose rules over chaos/violence. We have always had it so it feels like it can’t be permanently broken if it only happens to help Trump. Maybe that is true but I doubt it.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  130. > Maybe that is true but I doubt it.

    I doubt it, too. Our system is more fragile than we think it is and I no longer expect it to survive. :{

    aphrael (71d87c)

  131. I support an investigation of Trump and Biden and their families. I dont care if it takes decades to complete. Did Biden cancel the investigation of his son? I encourage the GOP to investigate and find out.

    There were investigations of Jimmy Carter’s brother as a lobbist for a foreign country who took payoffs and may have influenced foreign policy and/or acted for his brother, the President. He did something wrong and paid a fine. There were investigations of the Clinton family members, too, and a Bush son/brother, and undoubtedly others. I would not be surprised if there were partisans lobbying on both sides in those cases, and maybe special favors given. That undermines faith in pur legal system the same way a police chief hurts it when he gives special treatment to friends and family.

    But Trump has done something more than ask for special favors for himself and his family. He has undermined the election process. The peaceful transfer of power is what makes American democracy special and lasting. Trump and his minions were willing to see Americans fighting — literally fighting — to give him power. They did this on January 6 and in conversations talking about what might happen if they stole the election.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  132. Nobody fears Biden becoming an authoritarian. No one fears Biden not listening to his advisors.

    AJ_Liberty (2efe2c) — 8/18/2023 @ 6:23 pm

    Nobody who is objective, anyway.

    I’m sure those broken by partisanship, some of whom comment here, would disagree with one or both of your statements.

    norcal (314616)

  133. DRJ,

    but we don’t have rules because they aren’t applied equally. We know the Trump admin was hamstrung in a way that a leftist admin would never be… from media hype about fraudulent collusion to leftists drumming up the illegitimate claim and creating a false investigation that still hasnt occurred to a corrupt soul like Biden.

    If the Ashley Biden diary was Trump and his daughter, where would that have led by the media and the FBI? If Hunter was Don Jr and shared an account, used multiple email addresses and led to appearances of corruption… well… you know the rest.

    NJRob (60811e)

  134. DRJ (5b1867) — 8/19/2023 @ 1:28 pm

    Your last paragraph is spot-on. I don’t know how anyone could argue against it.

    norcal (314616)

  135. Selected, not elected says hello.

    Ballots in a trunk in Minnesota says hello.

    Recounts in Washington to chamge an election says hello.

    Proceedings to prevent Trump from becoming President in 2016 say hello.

    The system was corrupted well before Trump and claiming what he did was anything beyond modern day politics is just hyperbole.

    NJRob (60811e)

  136. Leftists undermined the election process by throwing out ballot verification, by using courts to change election law contrary to state constitutions and by screaming racism every time people support voter integrity laws.

    NJRob (60811e)

  137. Ok, then. You have lost faith in the American system. I am sorry you feel that way, for your sake. I would be depressed if I had lost faith in our system. But it is helpful to learn that because it makes further discussion about America pointless.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  138. Elections are run by humans and mistakes or wrongdoing will be made. We try to design the election process to guard against it, and we try to fix things that don’t work.

    It appears that most of the election processes and people did what they were supposed to do, including standing up to pressure from the White House. If Trump is elected, he will try to replace and diacredit everyone who did that.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  139. In other words, has there ever been elwction fraid or problems? Yes, and we try to fix them. Some election laws disappoint one side or the other, just like some abortion laws, etc., but we don’t tear down the system.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  140. Trump’s supporters’ only problem with “election fraud” is that it did not elect the owner of Trump University.

    Who, BTW, was obliged to pay a $24 million settlement to the students he defrauded. What numbers are we talking about with Hunter, Burisma, and China-China-China?

    nk (982965)

  141. That’s an insulting dismissal DRJ. It means that we are actually engaged in a cold war for the future of the country and that you are permitting one side to lie, cheat and steal while pretending otherwise. If you won’t call out the harm that’s being done by the left while claiming Trump is the destructor, then you are just acting like the commoners in the Emperor Has No Clothes.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  142. I did not mean it as a dismissal, Rob. I just don’t see anything else to say. You see Trump fighting back against election fraud, right?

    IMO the way to fight back is to expose election fraud and bring charges if there is a crime, or work to change the law if there isn’t.

    What Trump did was try to subvert elections/people that followed the rules and lied about what happened. The person with no clothes in that story is Trump.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  143. What Trump did was try to subvert elections/people that followed the rules and THEN TRUMP lied about what happened

    DRJ (8d831d)

  144. There was no evidence of election fraud or mistakes in the 2020 election that would have changed the winner. Saying there was fraud and mistakes in other elections does not change the 2020 outcome.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  145. But you think past problems and rule changed justify doubt about current elections. Is that right? I am trying to fairly state your position. I understand that concern but I dont see how we can ever have a final election result if you don’t have any basic confidence in election processes.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  146. Would you have believed it was a faur election if Trump had won in w020?

    What about 2024? Is there any way you will believe the election resuñts, no matter who won, if you don’t think elections are fair?

    DRJ (8d831d)

  147. I fear what we all need in this country, trivially, is a “I cut, you choose” mindset. It keeps people grudgingly honest, as every parent learns.

    For good or for ill (mostly ill), both sides have demonized the other, forcing people into increasingly extremist positions.

    The “the opponent is so awful that anything my candidate does is okay” mentality is not acceptable to me, nor to many other people.

    Yes, some Democrats have railed about election fraud during past Presidential elections. That gave cover to less and less high minded people to pick up that stick and beat the electorate with it.

    And here we are.

    Now insisting that people show ID at balloting sites is racist. Deadlines are extended. Lawfare flourishes. Neither party has clean hands.

    We all need to agree on this topic. If nothing else, look how the ideas are used by the hated “other side.”

    Me, I don’t think people who can’t pass a civics test should be allowed to vote. But that makes me a horrible person. So forget what I think.

    I don’t know a good way to bring people together.

    But I think it is madness to on the one hand be convinced that JRB is directly involved in international influence peddling, while NOT accepting that DJT is acting like a petulant child with no respect to norms nor the rule of law. Same yardstick for everyone, please.

    Otherwise, fewer and fewer non-ideologues will vote. And more and more crazytown people will be elected.

    Your mileage may vary.

    Simon Jester (c59699)

  148. Would you have believed it was a fair election if Trump had won in 2020?

    DRJ (8d831d)

  149. If every single thing that Biden has ever been accused of was successful, true and was found out, the country would survive with barely a bump.

    If Trump had successfully caused an insurrection that resulted in the capture of the government of the US, the possible death of congresspeople or senators, and overturned the election, I don’t know if it would’ve.

    If Trump had successfully convinced the governors or legislatures in their states to override their elections and overturned the election, I don’t know that it would’ve.

    The absolute base value of our country is the election of our leaders.

    Nic (896fdf)

  150. The Founders knew how to make that happen, Simon. We need two, strong, viable political parties to offer competing leaders/visión for the country. Unfortunately, we have one party that is content to be a minority party in devoción to Trump.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  151. My spelling is awful. I need reading glasses.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  152. But you think past problems and rule changed justify doubt about current elections. Is that right? I am trying to fairly state your position. I understand that concern but I dont see how we can ever have a final election result if you don’t have any basic confidence in election processes.

    DRJ (8d831d) — 8/19/2023 @ 5:36 pm

    I think the left will lie, cheat, and steal any election they can. I think they have proven they will do so and have done so in the past. I think they did cheat in Georgia when they lied and shut down counting by claiming a pipe burst then started counting when people left. I think they did cheat in Michigan when they boarded up buildings to prevent the public from seeing what happened.

    I don’t think that decided the race. I think Trump lost because of other issues including massive ballot harvesting that a corrupt court in PA permitted contrary to the state law. But they made the law and no one could challenge it.

    I think Trump is a fool and only running to satiate his own ego. I don’t want him to win the nomination because DeSantis is clearly the better and more effective candidate.

    I think if we don’t force the left to be honest and hold them accountable they will continue to cheat. And I think they fully expect NeverTrump to ignore it because it stops the bad man.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  153. I don’t disagree with a word Simon Jester said in 149.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  154. There was no insurrection. That’s a lie that just won’t die.

    Protesting without a single shot fired by the supposed insurrectionists. Give me a break.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  155. I think the left will lie, cheat, and steal any election they can. I think they have proven they will do so and have done so in the past. I think they did cheat in Georgia when they lied and shut down counting by claiming a pipe burst then started counting when people left. I think they did cheat in Michigan when they boarded up buildings to prevent the public from seeing what happened.

    I don’t think that decided the race. I think Trump lost because of other issues including massive ballot harvesting that a corrupt court in PA permitted contrary to the state law. But they made the law and no one could challenge it

    If Trump loses in 2024, will you assume that the Democrats are responsible for his loss because they lie, cheat, and steal whenever they can? Or will you accept a Trump loss bd ause he is a lousy candidate. IOW, will you accept a Trump loss because more voters wanted Biden?

    If your default position is that Democrats steal elections, how could you possibly accept a Trump (or Republican) loss?

    Dana (ab4856)

  156. Dana,

    why do you care? I don’t see you supporting any candidate for 2024. I just see more “Trump” “Trump” “Trump.”

    Does the election matter to you? Does the legitimacy of elections matter to you? Or is it just “Trump” that matters to you?

    I don’t bring the man up, but the rest of you talk about him incessantly.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  157. Yes, there was an insurrection:

    a violent uprising against an authority or government.

    There is no specification that guns must be shot to qualify as an insurrection. This need to minimize what occurred is telling.

    Dana (ab4856)

  158. Rob,

    I note that you didn’t address my question. Instead you’ve attempted to focus on me mentioning Trump, when in fact I was responding to your comments, which included Trump.

    I’m not sure whom I will vote for.

    Dana (ab4856)

  159. I didn’t ask who you will vote for. I asked who you support.

    And I can’t answer your hypothetical because I cannot predict the facts that have yet to occur. If it’s more of the same shenaganians that happened in 2020 there will be much to question.

    How about getting behind someone you support and trying to get different candidates to the election before your prophesy occurs?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  160. @NJRob@156 A bunch of Trump hooligans threatened violence against congresspeople and senators and violently pushed over the safety barriers and invaded the capitol building in an attempt to overturn the election, forcing the house and the Senate to lock down and then evacuate for their own safety.

    Nic (896fdf)

  161. They did less than antifa and BLM did on a weekly basis during the “Summer of Love.” Get a grip.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  162. I am sure that had Trump won, the Dems would have challenged the outcome just as Hillary advised Biden to do so if he lost. Blm would have rioted, burned and looted in response, with bail provided by Dem supporters, and the media would have spun the entire debacle as justified.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  163. @NJRob@163 When did antifa or BLM invade the us Capitol building in an attempt to overturn a US election?

    @felipe@164 Was there a riot against the Capitol building in 2016 when Hillary actually won the popular vote but lost the electoral college? Because I don’t remember that happening.

    Nic (896fdf)

  164. Oh please, Nic. Did you forget all of the resistance during Trump’s admin?

    felipe (5e2a04)

  165. @felipe@166 Every administration meets resistance when the President is one party and the legislature is another (see Clinton, William Jefferson). We know what the dems do when they lose very very close elections because it’s happened twice in the last 25 years. It isn’t what Trump and his segment of the R party did.

    Nic (896fdf)

  166. Felipe,

    it’s the massive moving of goalposts and modifying circumstances to ignore acts while claiming to hold others accountable that I find the most repulsive.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  167. We had Belle Rephon to save us from a Democrat insurrection if Trump had won. From the Leftist Socialist Transgender Jock Strap Confiscation Conspiracy too.

    Trump is a clear and present danger.

    nk (73e623)

  168. @164, you can be as sure of that hypothetical as you like. But since none of that happened it’s hard to get worked up about an alternate timeline.

    In the timeline that actually happened violent trump supporters assaulted the police and seized the us capital building in an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power based on lies about the outcome of the election being determined by fraud.

    Why on earth would I support a movement that wants to tear down our democratic system of government and constitution?

    Time123 (ebea3d)

  169. Nic, there was a violent riot in 2016. But unlike the violent MAGA assault of 2020 the dem establishment didn’t celebrate it for years and, more importantly, it wasn’t motivated by an attempt to seize the presidency.

    Time123 (ebea3d)

  170. Good morning everyone, especially Nic. This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad!

    We know what the dems do when they lose very very close elections because it’s happened twice in the last 25 years. It isn’t what Trump and his segment of the R party did.
    Nic (896fdf) — 8/19/2023 @ 10:21 pm

    This is a wonderfully truthful, thank you, but it only acknowledges the minimum and leaves out so much context, and as we all know, text without context is pretext.

    It isn’t what Trump and his segment of the R party did.

    This is exactly right! Nor were the reasons the same. The two opposing parties do not, will not, agree to what actually occurred much less the reasons behind it. This will not happen before history has its say. The courts are also prisoners of their time just as we are.

    One could have asked “where were all the fires and weapons on Jan 6th, that accompanied the Summer of love?” Such a statement also leaves out much context such as authorities giving so much “space” to the mob and tolerating the destruction in the name of justice, just to provide some context.

    Important to context is the underlying reasons for the mob gathering in the first place. The mobs mentality. The presence of any opposition and its mentality, the reporting by the media of the event to sway public opinion. The reaction of public officials closest to the event to name another.

    I do not begrudge a person of goodwill such as yourself, their own view of what they understand. I only ask that they step back and ask themselves, “on what reporting am I basing my understanding? In what world do I live?” If you and I answer differently, we must try to understand why we answer differently before we can make any progress – sometimes, understanding another’s position is more important than persuading them. Think wolf and sheep and dinner.

    I watched the events of Jan 6th, just as others did, seeing only what was shown to me. I thought what the talking heads were saying on camera did not reflect what I saw at all. Was I expected to believe what I was being told, or what my eyes told me?

    Name any tragic event, and you will find people viewing the exact same thing but coming away with radically different perceptions. If you can just but take this into account and then seek to answer “why?” Without becoming defensive of your own perception and reflexively tearing down any opposing position, then perhaps you and I can have a productive discussion which centers on truth, not spin.

    But we, all of us, are prisoners of our time. We are no better at escaping our own biases than any other society that came before us. It is a conceit to say “we are better because we exist today.”

    My mind is not what it used to be, any more than the time in which I live. Still, I think two people, however different, still want justice, yes?

    felipe (5879c1)

  171. Ran across this (https://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/article278377749.html)

    “It was the result of having multiple pastors tell me, essentially, the same story about quoting the Sermon on the Mount, parenthetically, in their preaching — ‘turn the other cheek’ — [and] to have someone come up after to say, ‘Where did you get those liberal talking points?’ Moore told Scott Detrow of NPR. “And what was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ,’ the response would not be, ‘I apologize.’ The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak.’ And when we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.”

    They’ve told pastors Jesus is weak, or at least his message, and that Trump is strong. They seem to believe following Trump instead of Jesus will get them to a promised land of glory and power quicker.

    For many it appears that politics has become their religion or, at minimum, has subsumed it. We rationalize bad behavior. We excuse cheating, lying, and stealing because the other guy MAY have done it or MAY do it in the future. We preemptively slap the cheek and slice off an ear for good measure.

    We exaggerate threats to mislead others into joining our zombie horde. We lie when we know better. We remain blissfully ignorant of obvious facts. We excuse ourselves by saying this is just how politics is played…or MUST be played.

    We slime others so that slimy choices seem less awful. We’ve abandoned talk of virtuous behavior and appeals to our better selves. We brazenly heave rocks from our glass houses and compulsively fixate on taking the speck out of our opponent’s eye.

    Our children and grandchildren are watching. Which leaders do we want them to emulate? What behavior do we want them to think is righteous and good? Stop rationalizing nonsense….

    AJ_Liberty (d45f6c)

  172. NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/20/2023 @ 3:09 am

    As do I, NJRob. But I admit that I, sometimes, also move goalposts thinking that I must, in order to restore the position of the 50 yard-line. Because of this, everyone ends up changing the field. We are a stiff-necked people, indeed.

    felipe (5879c1)

  173. nk (73e623) — 8/20/2023 @ 3:20 am

    Heh! Why, my dear nk, is it so easy for you to bend me to your will?

    felipe (5879c1)

  174. @164, you can be as sure of that hypothetical as you like. But since none of that happened it’s hard to get worked up about an alternate timeline.

    Same here! So why even ask for the hypothetical? If one lets the question go, the one can be accused of being “non-responsive.”

    In the timeline that actually happened violent trump supporters assaulted the police and seized the us capital building in an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power based on lies about the outcome of the election being determined by fraud.

    I’ve bolded the words that cause one to question the bias of the writer. Can you rephrase this without resorting to them?

    Why on earth would I support a movement that wants to tear down our democratic system of government and constitution?
    Time123 (ebea3d) — 8/20/2023 @ 5:21 am

    On this, you and I are in complete agreement! I am an Independent because both R and D are in violation of my sensibilities.

    felipe (5879c1)

  175. AJ_Liberty (d45f6c) — 8/20/2023 @ 6:48 am

    Thank you for that comment AJ.

    They’ve told pastors Jesus is weak, or at least his message, and that Trump is strong. They seem to believe following Trump instead of Jesus will get them to a promised land of glory and power quicker.

    Yeah, this seems “too good to check” if you know what I mean. Practicing Christianity – following Jesus – is incredibly hard at first, then it gets easier, and then it gets harder still. G.K.C. had it right when he said ““The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”

    Speaking of Chesterton and those who leave Christianity unpracticed, I’ve met nominal Christians, some in my own family, who are exactly like that and would love to reprint the Bible, leaving out all the “problematic parts.”

    felipe (5879c1)

  176. People who were there did not see a peaceful crowd, felipe. Here is the real video.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  177. And this timeline explains how Trump incited it.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  178. I understand the need for your two comments, DRJ. This is not my first exposure this. I once again find myself alone in my own company, apart from two differing sides. History will decide this, not you, not I.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  179. I spend part of my day with my fellow unfortunates who, when I can spare a word, a coin, a touch, do not take umbrage at my favoring one over another. This is such a stark contrast to what I find, in my fellow unfortunates on this site, with respect to perceptions.

    The difference lies in one group being beaten completely into humility. I will be part of that company.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  180. Felipe, I could. But the words you bolden are factually accurate. Is there one of them you feel isn’t accurate or not well supported by evidence?

    I have no problem being respectful to people I disagree with, but that doesn’t mean denying well documented facts.

    Time123 (ebea3d)

  181. …the entire team investigating Hunter was disbanded after the whistleblower announced his findings.

    What’s the Special Counsel, a potted plant? His very mission is to investigate Hunter Biden wrongdoing.

    BTW, Vindman wasn’t a whistleblower, he was a witness. The actual whistleblower remains technically anonymous to this day.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  182. The system was corrupted well before Trump and claiming what he did was anything beyond modern day politics is just hyperbole.

    It’s hyperbole to claim there was serious fraud, even in the close election in WA State, where no one on the Republican side could, on appeal, find sufficient evidence that there were illegal votes or ballots, and therefore had no legal standing to re-do the election or reverse the result.

    When I say “serious fraud”, I mean enough fraud to change the outcome in any of the battlegrounds. Actual incidences numbered in the hundreds, but Trump needed thousands or tens of thousands, but there was no evidence of even thousands, and his lying about “massive fraud” only served to undermine our democracy by his lies that our system is “rigged” or corrupt. It simply isn’t. Trump is making sh-t up because he’s the sorest loser in presidential history, and it’s time for Cult Trump to snap out of it.

    Our electoral system isn’t perfect, but the AG and CISA Director and two of Trump’s own secret investigations concluded that Trump lost fair and square, among others.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  183. To handle the gradients of what Trump did in his election challenge and what has been done by the Dems in more normal times, I would propose reviewing Democratic behavior in 2000 in Florida and the brief period in 2004 when Diebold was evil and allegedly threw the election to Bush in Ohio. There is also the constant suspicion over the years about really close elections with recounts tilting over to the Democrats. (Didn’t Al Franken win one of those?)

    I do not have the time nor inclination for this. But one of our populists might.

    Appalled (e342d4)

  184. Hmmm. I made a comment that didn’t appear, not even an “awaiting moderation”.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  185. felioe,

    I took great effort to find websites that portray both sides fairly, including providing video so you can see for yourself. But, like Time123, I can’t change facts. Jan 6 involved violence aimed at overturning Biden’s election and installing Trump as President.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  186. From my link at 179:

    At noon on January 6, at a rally on the Ellipse one mile from the Capitol in Washington, D.C., Trump claimed election fraud and called on Vice President Pence to overturn the 2020 election results by refusing to certify certain electoral votes. Trump told his assembled supporters, “We’re going to walk down to the Capitol” and “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

    Congress was meeting at the Capitol to certificado Biden’s election. That is what Trump told them to do.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  187. A Tale of Two Interviews

    #1:

    NICOLE WALLACE: You look at this White House now and it’s hard to imagine two FBI agents hanging out in the [Situation] room. How does that happen?

    JAMES COMEY: I sent them.

    [crowd laughs]

    Something we, I probably wouldn’t have done or gotten away with in a more organized investigation — a more organized administration… The Bush administration, the Obama administration… The FBI wanted to send agents into the White House itself to interview a senior official. You would work through the White House counsel and there were discussions and approvals and it would be there and I thought, it’s early enough. Let’s just send a couple of guys over.

    #2:

    The “initial plan” was to “make approaches of multiple witnesses, to include subject Hunter Biden, on December 8th” 2020 – weeks after the presidential election.

    “The initial plan was to have the local field office of the Secret Service be notified the morning of to diminish opportunities for anybody else to be notified. I was working with my management on that, as well as headquarters – our FBI headquarters,” the agent testified.

    The night before, on Dec. 7, 2020, the agent said he was “informed that FBI headquarters had contacted Secret Service headquarters and had made a notification at that time, or somewhere around that time on the evening of the 7th.”

    The agent said the notification was of investigators’ “intent.”

    “That we sought to interview Hunter Biden.”

    The agent said he believes the Biden transition team was notified of the intent to interview Hunter Biden as well, and he said he was “upset” when he learned of that communication.

    “I felt it was people that did not need to know about our intent,” he said. “I believe that the Secret Service had to be notified for our safety, for lack of confusion, for deconfliction, which we would do in so many other cases, but I didn’t understand why the initial notification.”

    The agent explained that by “transition team” he was referring to “when one party or, you know, president-elect, you know, is in that president-elect phase, their team of advisers or appointees or whomever are considered the transition team.”

    The next day, the morning of the proposed interview with Hunter Biden, the agent testified that he was notified by his assistant special agent in charge that “we would not even be allowed to approach the house – that the plan, as told to us, was that my information would be given to the Secret Service, to whom I don’t know exactly, and, you know, my name, my contact, you know, my cellphone, for example, with the notification that we would like to talk to Hunter Biden and that I was not to go near the house and to stand by.”

    Majority counsel asked him if, in his two decades of working at the FBI, he had “ever been told” to “wait outside of a target’s home until they contacted you?”

    “Not that I recall,” the agent said. “I mean, there have been times where we waited for maybe something else operationally to happen, but no, not from the point of view of the target, the subject of the investigation.”

    The agent said he and his assistant “weren’t allowed to go to the house” and had to wait “a block or two away.”

    When asked if he was ever able to interview Hunter Biden, the agent said, “I was not, no.”

    lloyd (a53a94)

  188. “peacefully and patriotically”

    DRJ, you do everyone a disservice by quoting the dishonest leftists that edited Trump’s remarks that day. Let his remarks stand on their own for people to judge.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-peacefully-and-patriotically/

    After this, we’re going to walk down — and I’ll be there with you — we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down — anyone you want, but I think right here — we’re going to walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women. And we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. Because you’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength, and you have to be strong. We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing, and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated — lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard today.

    NJRob (ef40b0)

  189. Thank you for adding that Rob. I hope everyone will read your link and make their own decisions about Trump’s intentions in his speech.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  190. I always bring zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats whenever the President calls me out for a “wild”…yet peaceful…protest. And if my exuberance happens to disrupt an official congressional proceeding, then that’s an inconvenient artifact. If you don’t like me exercising my first amendment right to confront Nancy Pelosi and zip tie her like a common barnyard animal, then all I can say is that I have a flagpole with your name on it.

    Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I wonder how long we last as a united people if we can’t agree on basic facts…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  191. I always bring zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats whenever the President calls me out for a “wild”…yet peaceful…protest. …

    I always bring zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats whenever the President calls me out for a “wild”…yet peaceful…protest.

    What percentage of Trump 2020 voters reacted this way?

    BuDuh (e34793)

  192. Sorry for the double quote. I meant to follow my question with this quote:

    I wonder how long we last as a united people if we can’t agree on basic facts…

    I agree. Now please fact build on why the insurrection clarion call had such a miserable turnout.

    BuDuh (e34793)

  193. Here is a transcript of all of Trump’s speech at the Ellipse on January 6.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  194. Time123 (ebea3d) — 8/20/2023 @ 8:44 am

    Thank you for the reply, Time. “Tact” is all I am getting at, not “factual.” It is possible to be factual and demonstrate tact, is my point.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  195. DRJ (8d831d) — 8/20/2023 @ 9:54 am

    I did not mean to sound unappreciative, DRJ! Not at all. What you doi is important. I just meant that I as others here, have been paying close attention and have seen this already.

    Please accept my profuse apologies for my oafish clumsiness and poor manners. My subsequent comment was not directed at you either, DRJ! It was directed to, well, all of us, I guess when we let our pride get the better of us; I know I am guilty of it. And I wish to be less prideful, but I know I have pride that needs pounding out. Someday, after the pounding, I will be in the company of those with such humility.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  196. Trump told his assembled supporters, “We’re going to walk down to the Capitol” and “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

    Congress was meeting at the Capitol to certificado Biden’s election. That is what Trump told them to do.
    DRJ (8d831d) — 8/20/2023 @ 9:57 am

    Yes, exactly so. We both heard the exact same words, but had two different impressions. This is my point and the world we construct around that is what defines a person’s percetption and then solidifies – or hardens, if you will- into a position.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  197. Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I wonder how long we last as a united people if we can’t agree on basic facts…
    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 8/20/2023 @ 10:38 am

    Ha! On the contrary, that was spot on! Your point is well received. I would only add “After all, this is what Democracy looks like!” That phrase was all the rage in Madison.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  198. DRJ-

    You can’t convince those who don’t want to be convinced.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  199. “Trump has called all patriots”: 174 Jan. 6th criminal defendants say Trump incited them

    One hundred seventy-four defendants from 37 states who were charged for their participation in the January 6th insurrection have said they were answering Donald Trump’s calls when they traveled to Washington and joined the violent attack on the Capitol. CREW’s examination of court filings, transcripts, and news items regarding defendants in January 6th cases shows that defendants—ranging from convicted seditionists such as members of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers to individual members of the public—considered Trump their leader and believed they were following his lead by joining the insurrection.

    In letters to federal judges, federal court filings, and appeals to the public, these defendants and their legal representatives have made it clear that Trump’s repeated false statements and calls to action drove their actions that day. ………
    ………..
    ………Kelly Meggs, a Florida member of the Oath Keepers (and later convicted of seditious conspiracy), wrote in a message around the time of the post, “He called us all to the Capitol and wants us to make it wild!!! Sir Yes Sir!!! Gentlemen we are heading to DC pack your sh*t!”
    ………..
    Many of the most violent insurrectionists acknowledged that they were incited by Trump. Two members of the mob who led life-threatening attacks against Metropolitan Police officers Daniel Hodges and Michael Fanone both claimed that they were incited to violence by Trump. Fanone’s attacker, Daniel Rodriguez, said, “I thought [Trump] was calling for help. I thought we were doing the right thing.”

    Nicholas Languerand, who assaulted officers with a traffic barrier, pepper spray can, and other objects, posted a “#MessageFor45” on Twitter four days after Trump’s “will be wild” tweet, saying “We’re picking up your messages, and we’re listening. We’re ready to do this thing. We’re ready to fight to defend our republic against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Douglas Austin Jensen, who chased Capitol Police officer Eugene Goodman up a flight of stairs inside the Capitol, told investigators, “Trump posted make sure you’re there, January 6 for the rally in Washington, D.C. … and then he got us all fired up to go to [the Capitol].”
    …………
    This table includes information on all those defendants incited by Trump:
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  200. “What percentage of Trump 2020 voters reacted this way?”

    Enough?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  201. Oh… that is a quality and respectful answer.

    I always bring zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats whenever the President calls me out for a “wild”…yet peaceful…protest. …

    How about this question: What percentage of Trump’s 2020 voters did not react that way?

    BuDuh (e34793)

  202. BuDuh (e34793) — 8/20/2023 @ 10:53 am

    Relapsing already? 😉

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  203. felipe,

    I understand now but I admit I didn’t before. I agree that different people heard different things in Trump’s speech. Some heard a call to action while others weren’t sure and still others heard a message of peace. Trump is a politician now and an entertainer, so he has that chameleon-like ability to be say vague things that nevertheless speak to people.

    Most Presidents write speeches to communicate well and to avoid triggering a bad response. They and their speechwriters spend weeks crafting the right message and avoiding bad nessages. Trump won’t do that. I didn’t blame candidate Trump for that but I do blame President Trump. He is responsible for anything his words incite, especially that day at that place.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  204. Buduh,

    Not many but enough, as A J said. But that isn’t the point. Trump did get that response in a situation that other Presidents accepted gracefully, even if they felt wronged. In addition, reports suggest he loved it. He certainly made no effort to stop the violence, even though ordering the Guard/military was his sole responsibility.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  205. “please fact build on why the insurrection clarion call had such a miserable turnout”

    My response was targeted at anyone here who believed that the January 6th Capitol incursion was mostly peaceful and spontaneous. It was orchestrated. It was planned. It was abetted.

    Personally I never thought the plan was particularly well conceived, but the side plan of delaying the count and trying to substitute alternative electoral slates was designed to stress the system….and create a constitutional crisis. Now that crisis would have likely been short lived as the Supreme Court would have granted expedited review. But there would have been great uncertainty for awhile and the potential for greater violence. No one knows what spiral violence can take. I actually think we dodged a bullet on how J6 ended up going down. If I was a cop getting crushed in a door frame, I doubt I would have exercised such restraint…though avoiding escalation was in fact the correct call.

    But back to BuDuh’s question. J6 is NOT an indictment of the 74M people who voted for Trump. Heck Liz Cheney even voted for Trump. BuDuh is taking us down a false trail. The real question should be why Trump ended up paying such a little price among those 74M for seducing several thousand gullible individuals to engage in violence and law breaking that day? The idea that an ex-President can’t be impeached and convicted after leaving office due to bad behavior during the transition period is shockingly obtuse. Too many of the 74M chose to initiate wild conspiracy speculation and, in essence, forced us down a legal path that will once again stress the system. And once again too many of those 74M willingly provide political cover.

    JF always railed that if we just stopped talking about Trump, he would naturally go away. Yeah, not a chance…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  206. Trump’s Fans:

    ………….
    The government requested 33-year prison sentences for Enrique Tarrio and Joseph Biggs after both men were found guilty in May of seditious conspiracy, a rarely used statute that criminalizes conspiring to use force to overthrow the government, impede its laws or seize its property.

    It also recommended sentences of 30 years for Zachary Rehl and 27 years for Ethan Nordean, who were also convicted on that charge. It asked for 20 years for a fifth defendant in the case, Dominic Pezzola, who was acquitted of seditious conspiracy but convicted on other charges including obstructing a proceeding of Congress and destruction of government property.
    ………….
    Prosecutors invoked a rarely used terrorism enhancement to justify their lengthy sentence recommendations. The enhancement can apply to felonies “calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion or to retaliate against government conduct,” which the prosecutors said reflected the Proud Boys’ conduct.
    ………….
    The proposed sentences against Tarrio and Biggs are the lengthiest the government has sought as part of the sprawling array of criminal cases it has brought against more than 1,000 defendants who are charged in conjunction with the breach. U.S. District Judge Timothy Kelly is set to decide on the sentences in a series of hearings beginning Aug. 30.
    ………….

    On the lam:

    A member of the Proud Boys has disappeared ahead of his sentencing on charges related to the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol, according to an arrest warrant unsealed on Friday.
    Christopher Worrell was convicted earlier this year on seven counts related to his conduct during the insurrection, including assaulting a group of Capitol Police officers with pepper spray and lying to investigators.

    He was set to be sentenced on Friday, with prosecutors seeking 14 years in prison.
    …………
    Worrell had been on house arrest in Florida since November 2021.
    ……….

    I guess prison looked too tough after spending time “incarcerated” at home. .

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  207. Good comment AJ 207.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  208. Another fan:

    ..……….
    Michael Steven Perkins, 40, of Plant City, Florida, was sentenced by U.S. District Court Judge Carl J. Nichols to 48 months in prison and 36 months of supervised release.

    Perkins was found guilty on March 15, 2023, of assaulting a federal officer with a deadly or dangerous weapon and civil disorder, both felony offenses. Perkins was also found guilty of offenses of entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds, disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds, and acts of physical violence while on the restricted Capitol grounds.
    …………..
    As police descended into the crowd to assist another officer, Perkins picked up a flagpole and thrust it into the chest of an approaching officer. Perkins then raised the flagpole over his head and swung it down, striking two officers in the back of their heads.

    After the police line broke, Perkins moved closer to the Capitol building and climbed up the inaugural stage, then ascended to the building’s Upper West Terrace. All told, Perkins spent at least three hours in the restricted Capitol grounds on January 6, 2021.
    ………….
    In the 31 months since Jan. 6, 2021, more than 1,106 individuals have been arrested in nearly all 50 states for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol, including more than 350 individuals charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement.
    ……….,,,,

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  209. My response was targeted at anyone here who believed that the January 6th Capitol incursion was mostly peaceful and spontaneous.

    What percentage of the people that attended the speech were not only involved in the “incursion” but also were prepared with “zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats?”

    Our fact quest may really narrow the broad brush, don’t you think?

    BuDuh (e34793)

  210. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 8/20/2023 @ 12:15 pm

    👍

    Rip Murdock (b11e59)

  211. JF always railed that if we just stopped talking about Trump, he would naturally go away. Yeah, not a chance…

    An amusing point to make on a thread titled “Trump Has Fans.”

    BuDuh (e34793)

  212. #202
    “Enough”

    ah, enough to tar everyone with the same brush, but not enough people who made it inside the Capitol were motivated enough to destroy the place. There were enough people inside to have burned it down, but didn’t. So in my view even in the cohort of loons inside the building there were not enough to pull off a world class insurrection
    Granted, by US standards (which I support), this was an insurrection and a disgrace but we haven’t turned into Brazil-yet. We will if we continue this policy where every group gets to throw a tantrum and is allowed to loot and destroy property, set fire to polices stations and federal buildings. Set a line that will not be allowed to be crossed and enforce it for everyone equally no exemptions for orientation, color, type of grievance etc. People are allowed to be angry, allowed to protest, but there must be a clear line set by the Federal government. I say Federal government needs to set its standard because our system gives wide discretion to local, state authorities. To those who say the Federal Government did just now set a standard, I say that is not a standard yet. Right now the Federal response has been strong, but I think it is probably a one off.

    steveg (8f991c)

  213. “ah, enough to tar everyone with the same brush, but not enough people who made it inside the Capitol were motivated enough to destroy the place.”

    Read 207. Trump’s plan was to delay and pressure Pence to substitute the electors. The people who stormed the Capitol created the delay and provided Pence with the opportunity. The insurrection did not include the entire GOP….though a good many of the GOP have fought mightily to have Trump avoid any accountability. You OK with that?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  214. Aren’t we lucky they weren’t world-class insurrectionists, steveg? I am not being sarcastic.

    I hope it never happens again with any group, but I suspect if there is a next time then they will do a better job. (By the way, only one died at Fort Sumter, too.) As for me, I am glad when insurrectionists and criminals are inept.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  215. CBS News poll finds Trump’s big lead grows, as GOP voters dismiss indictments
    ………….
    Right now, the Republican Party would easily re-nominate Donald Trump for 2024. And it’s not close.

    The former president now holds his largest lead over his rivals in our polling amid his recent legal troubles. In fact, most of his voters cite those troubles as yet one more reason to show him support.

    His nearest — but not too near — rival Ron DeSantis has fallen even further back. Everyone else is in single digits.

    Donald Trump 62%

    Ron DeSantis 16

    Vivek Ramaswamy 7

    Mike Pence 6

    Tim Scott 3

    Nikki Haley/ 2
    Chris Christie

    Doug Burgum/ 1
    Asa Hutchinson

    …………
    (91%) of GOP primary voters want the other candidates to focus on making the case for themselves, but not against Trump.
    …………
    …………(I)nformation in the indictments doesn’t have an impact, in part, because they generally believe it’s Trump who tells them the truth.

    Trump far and away leads the GOP field among voters who place top importance on a candidate being “honest and trustworthy.”

    Trump 61%

    DeSantis 17

    Ramaswamy 6

    Pence 5

    Scott 4

    ………..
    Trump’s voters hold him as a source of true information, even more so than other sources, including conservative media figures, religious leaders, and even their own friends and family.

    Trump 71%

    Friends & Family 61

    Conservative media 56

    Religious leaders 42

    ………..

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  216. “JF always railed that if we just stopped talking about Trump, he would naturally go away. Yeah, not a chance…”

    I’ve said that quite a bit as well.

    People you are a fan of have certainly helped Trump with his fundraising, and without Other Peoples Money, Trump goes away faster? Yes or no? People have short attention spans, trend towards apathy quickly, need to be excited and/or agitated to stay interested and invested. Trump has said as much when he noted that one more indictment should push him over the top. It won’t and he has several reasons for saying that, but you can’t deny that the more Trump is attacked, the more money he raises. Go ahead and be dismissive, but please also explain to me how cheapskate Trump succeeds in fundraising within a vacuum

    steveg (8f991c)

  217. People who have given him money don’t want to feel like suckers. It is much easier to make him a martyr.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  218. Look what happened when Hillary lost. What if Trump had tried to follow through on “lock her up” for the next 4 years? It probably would have been a Clinton Trump rematch in 2020.

    I realize Trump is a bad guy and people want to draw the line right here. I hope the cost benefit is worth it, but again I think this is a one off.

    steveg (8f991c)

  219. What percentage of the people that attended the speech were not only involved in the “incursion” but also were prepared with “zip ties, bear spray, stun guns, and baseball bats?”

    BuDuh (e34793) — 8/20/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    Straining at gnats while swallowing a camel.

    The important thing from that day is that Trump caused it and reveled in it. Everything else is a distraction.

    norcal (36391c)

  220. Proof again that norcal has no real contribution.

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  221. What if Trump had tried to follow through on “lock her up” for the next 4 years?

    We have been spared all of the “but Hillary” comparisons.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  222. Proof again that norcal has no real contribution.

    BuDuh (4214e4) — 8/20/2023 @ 1:18 pm

    Not placing the blame where it squarely belongs is a malignant contribution.

    norcal (36391c)

  223. DRJ would they be sending Trump money if he was out of the news? Where would the momentum come from without the daily fuel sprayed on the martyrdom fire? I agree some people would still send money, but it would taper off, down rather than trend up

    steveg (8f991c)

  224. @felipe@172 That’s a lovely sentiment to express, but at the same time there is an underlying event that occurred that isn’t a matter of viewpoint and is, as the old show says, “just the facts” and if you take away the viewpoint of motivation, or even intent, the facts show a series of events that were violent in the halls of government. I have watched both the “peaceful” videos and the riotous ones and concluded that even if there were times when things were less violent, the violence was still significant in the event.

    In the timeline that actually happened violent trump supporters assaulted the police and seized the us capital building in an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power based on lies about the outcome of the election being determined by fraud.

    I can fix it to remove the emotional words, but it doesn’t change the meaning.

    “In the timeline that happened Trump supporters forced their way through the police lines, knocking down barriers and police officers, several of whom were injured, and used force to enter the Capitol building. Many stated that their intent was to stop governmental proceedings in order to obtain the outcome of Trump returning to the Presidency. A number also stated the wish to “hang Mike Pence” or do other kinds of harm to various Democratic congress people. Biden received both more popular and more electoral college votes, a result which had stood even after many legal challenges and investigations.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  225. BuDuh (e34793) — 8/20/2023 @ 11:52 am

    The vast majority were law-abiding. I don’t know why it is so hard for anyone else to state that.

    My position is that there were forces on all sides with an active interest in exploiting the event for their own unstated reasons. From the merely curious, who were attracted to the large crowd and swept up by the drama that unfolded, to those who were purposely deployed to be there, whether to act as props – a visual deterrent – or to be actively fanning/calming emotions.

    Only the most naive would ignore the opportunity for both overt and clandestine operations to push/pull the populace into action. In my opinion, few in power let that opportunity pass them by, even if by pretending to be powerless. We can all agree that actions/inactions by politicians on both sides added to the mess.

    If you believe that only one side is to blame, then I suggest you have been made the victim of a hoax.

    felipe (5879c1)

  226. I can fix it to remove the emotional words, but it doesn’t change the meaning.

    That is an argument for doing so. The benefit in removing the emotional content is in the reception of the conveyed truth. you want to convey the truth, right? You want the truth accepted, right?

    felipe (5879c1)

  227. DRJ- Forgot to say that I think on Trump you and most here are in the “Do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may” camp. I agree that is the best way to go in life and respect people who stick to that code. I said earlier -not for you personally and for most here- that I think this is a one off. I’ll clarify. A Washington DC one off.

    I see lots of chip cleanup on aisle 5 for having this be a one off. Hope I’m wrong

    steveg (8f991c)

  228. It is Sunday, so I’ll quit pontificating on Patterico’s Pontifications and take some time to pray for the country and our leadership on both sides. That we would get the leadership we need in 2024, 2026….

    steveg (8f991c)

  229. Many stated that their intent was to stop governmental proceedings in order to obtain the outcome of Trump returning to the Presidency. A number also stated the wish to “hang Mike Pence” or do other kinds of harm to various Democratic congress people.

    What percentage of Trump 2020 voters reacted this way?

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  230. DRJ would they be sending Trump money if he was out of the news?

    Probably not but Trump is never out of the headlines. He knows how to market himself, how to get publicity, gain public trust, and how to get people to give him money. It will never happen.

    Bless you for your prayers about this.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  231. “In the timeline that happened…

    Much better. Now, let’s see how people react to that.

    felipe (5879c1)

  232. “I’ve said that quite a bit as well.”

    The only thing that silencing NeverTrump would have accomplished would be Trump would have an even higher favorability rating inside the GOP.

    Since the GOP chose not to convict Trump in his second impeachment, that kept a sore spot for over 50% of the electorate. And with Trump running to inevitably fight off criminal charges, there was never any hope of Trump just vanishing from the news. This was more navel gazing on the Right. You guys just keep looking out and blaming wee little NeverTrump while you guys created, fed, and defended this monster. It’s your cleanup…and you still refuse to acknowledge it.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  233. steveg (8f991c) — 8/20/2023 @ 1:45 pm

    Amen. I’m right there, with you.

    BuDuh (4214e4) — 8/20/2023 @ 1:46 pm

    I will go out on a limb and say that only 1% of the commenters here would be inclined to do the basic math involved to answer you, BuDuh. Talk about being a member of the elite!

    felipe (5879c1)

  234. felipe,

    I did not realize Buduh’s point is that “the vast majoirty were law abiding.” I don’t know if that is true but it certainly might be.

    Various estimates of crowd size were 80,000-120,000 at the Ellipse rally, I think there were 700 – 1,000 people arrested, so arrests were a very small percentage of that. But there were also reports that less than 10,000 actually went to the Capitol, meaning 10% may have acted unlawfully.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  235. I answered before I saw your comment 235, felipe. I think many would be willing to do the math if we had understood Buduh’s comment the way you did.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  236. I have always known that you were a member of the elite, DRJ. This is me standing close enough to bask in your glow. Your math also checks out.

    felipe (5879c1)

  237. However, entering past police barricadas with all that chaos is not a sign of a law abiding person to me. They were clueless is the best I would concede.

    DRJ (5b1867)

  238. If you believe that only one side is to blame, then I suggest you have been made the victim of a hoax.

    felipe (5879c1) — 8/20/2023 @ 1:29 pm

    Are you saying you blame NeverTrump and the Democrats for Jan 6?

    DRJ (5b1867)

  239. I am saying that if you blame only one side, then you are wrong. Anyone who says their side is blameless are wrong.

    felipe (5879c1)

  240. However, entering past police barricadas with all that chaos is not a sign of a law abiding person to me. They were clueless is the best I would concede.
    DRJ (5b1867) — 8/20/2023 @ 2:07 pm

    That is correct. that is all I would concede as well.

    felipe (5879c1)

  241. I will say the same about the Summer of love riots. No party was blameless.

    felipe (5879c1)

  242. Trump has fully embraced the January 6th defendants, so it’s pretty hard to argue they have nothing to do with each other. He has promised them pardons (and a “full” apology); recorded a song with them, hosted at least one fundraiser at Bedminster.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  243. As everyone plays with numbers and reconciles that questions are troublesome to answer. I will throw out a line from Karl Popper:

    Always remember that it is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood: there will always be some who misunderstand you.”

    The overwhelming vast majority group of Trump supporters did not understand that Trump was calling for an insurrection, violence, or any action that resembled even a riot. That same group heard Pence two days earlier tell an audience in Georgia that he was going to go over the evidence on Jan 6th. That same group saw a teeny, tiny group of dimwits waltz into the Capitol at the very moment the evidence had gone to the chambers to be debated.

    That same group, that also participated here at Patterico’s, was very clear at the outset they they did not condone any of the violence that day.

    But that group gets broad-brushed constantly.

    And that isn’t going to change around here.

    My point that may dawn on those who look up the numbers, and plug them into their calculators, is that the majority, by an undeniable long shot, understood Trump to say something completely different.

    But keep adding people who walked by barricades that had been torn down and set off to the side well before they arrived at the Capitol to the group that brought bats and bear spray. The “insurrection” interpreters in the hundreds to thousands, must have been better at understanding Trump than the millions of supporters who were completely caught off guard by the events of Jan 6th.

    BuDuh (e34793)

  244. I am saying that if you blame only one side, then you are wrong. Anyone who says their side is blameless are wrong.

    felipe (5879c1) — 8/20/2023 @ 2:20 pm

    What blame do Democrats and Never Trumpers deserve for January 6th?

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  245. Yet Trump’s argument at the time, that the 2020 election was rigged and a fraud, continues to this day, when polling shows 69% of Republican voters don’t believe Biden is the legitimate President.

    Rip Murdock (14415d)

  246. @Buduh@231 I’m not sure what your point is? If your point is that most trump voters didn’t come to the capitol with the intent of invading the capitol building, I don’t think anyone disagrees with that?

    Nic (896fdf)

  247. How do you define “most,” Nic?

    51% / 49%

    or

    >99% / <1%

    BuDuh (e34793)

  248. @BuDuh@249 It was clearly less than 1%

    Nic (896fdf)

  249. So why was Trump’s “it will be wild” insurrection call so misunderstood by the >99%?

    BuDuh (e34793)

  250. BuDuh (e34793) — 8/20/2023 @ 2:49 pm:

    I do not blame Trump supporters for Jan 6 if they weren’t there, offered no support for those who were there, or were there and did not commit a crime. Period.

    But that does not excuse Trump in what happened for me. He set this in motión by refusing to concede despite no credible evidence that Biden lost and he won. He inflamed passions and people who trusted him got in trouble based on a con that hurt them but benefitted the conman (as cons always do).

    I also have concerns about people who still support Trump after seeing what he did. He tried to destroy the American elections and electoral process for personal gain. Some people are going along with this because they believe voting for Trump will help them more than a Biden vote would. There are always trade-offs when we vote but this should be a no-brainer. Trump will break any law to win. Regrettably, some people actually find that a plus.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  251. So why was Trump’s “it will be wild” insurrection call so misunderstood by the >99%?

    BuDuh (e34793) — 8/20/2023 @ 3:17 pm

    You tell us.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  252. @Buduh@251 Do you mean why didn’t more people show up? Because I think it’s impossible to say how many did or did not “understand” Trump’s “it will be wild” call. There are probably as many reasons as there were Trump voters.

    Nic (896fdf)

  253. To me, it doesnt matter what they thought then. It matters what they think now, knowing the things he was doing, saying and planning then.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  254. What percentage of Al Qaeda was in the 9/11 flights?

    nk (82fd66)

  255. Yeah, Trump was as much a miserable failure of a degenerate orange freak in rallying enough wackos to successfully invade the Capitol as he was in most other things during his Presidency. That does not make him either innocent or harmless enough to be ignored. Just a miserable failure of a degenerate orange freak.

    nk (82fd66)

  256. Trump supporters are Al Qaeda….

    Glad I had the filter turned off. As I don’t expect anyone here to seriously rebuke you, nk, I don’t see why further elucidation is necessary on my part.

    BuDuh (e34793)

  257. I think you are mixing up metaphors and analogies, Buduh. nk was making an analogy.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  258. His analogy is to use an evil group that universally wants all Americans dead and sever off a portion of that evil group as small percentage. This is not analogous in any way shape or form to a group that has a small percentage that is evil.

    You recognize that, I am sure.

    But maybe not.

    Either way, the subject has been shifted and it is tiresome.

    BuDuh (e34793)

  259. The Innocence Of Trumplims.

    If “the 99%” had taken the side of peaceful protest and law and order and had stopped, or at least said one discouraging word to, “the 1%” then maybe the Trump Math would work. Did they? Or did they do all that was within their ability and within the risk they were willing to take and just shout and wave signs while the loonier ones committed the crimes?

    nk (82fd66)

  260. Again, the insurrection did not require sacking and taking control of the Capitol. The insurrection was pressuring Pence to abuse the Electoral Count Act and pressuring enough Republican representatives to go along with it. The pressure was the violence we saw…as in the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, and militiamen who were surreptitiously ready with tactical gear. The taking of the Capitol provided delay and pressure.

    Trump needed enough fanatics to make a credible riot. He got enough. And if rioters had en masse tried to get into areas where congressmen and staffers were holed up, it would have likely gotten very ugly…and deadly. Who would have known that white nationalists might not have been the smartest rioters? Go figure.

    Speaker after speaker at the Ellipse got other protesters whooped up and the power of a mob did the rest. BuDuh is stuck on why more MAGA did not respond to Trump’s “bat call”. What does it matter? He got enough of the crazy to delay the certification….and scare the bejesus out of a lot of people. Afterwards, he has enough transfixed to start speculating on every imaginable false flag operation and deep state setup. He baffled enough Trumpsters with BS that the GOP was paralyzed to impeach. All they could do was continue to play politics….and complain about the Democrats.

    Did Trump’s team…under his direction….try to rig the electoral count so he would be announced as President? The answer appears “yes”. And I can understand how many might consider the plot to be a bloodless attempt at insurrection. Can’t we at least agree that it’s wrong…and that Trump should have paid a greater price?

    AJ_Liberty (fc61e5)

  261. If 99%+ didn’t hear the call to raise a riot how can you claim that Trump intended to do so and is responsible for it.

    NJRob (6ab579)

  262. Buduh,

    You get to point out your objecións and nk responded, but you can’t control the discussion like an attorney at a depostión. I suggest you make whatever point you want to make instead of this list if questions.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  263. He went with the mob he could get, Rob.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  264. AJ,

    I think the Trump lawyers followed that plan. I think Trump checked the “All of the above” box and went with everybody and every plan that might make him President.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  265. Trump is skipping the debate. No shock. There is speculation he will counterprogram with a Tucker Carlson interview.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  266. Buduh,

    Analogies are often extreme to better elucidate points. I think nk’s analogy raises whether the larger group shares the goals and methods of the smaller group, even if the larger group did not directly participate.

    We know many al Queda adherents supported the idea of 9/11 without taking part. My guess is his point is that Trump supporters who are still voting for him not only share his goals but also approve of his methods (or they aren’t offended by his methods)?

    DRJ (8d831d)

  267. Trump is not al Queda, thankfully, but he is hurting our country.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  268. “If 99%+ didn’t hear the call to raise a riot how can you claim that Trump intended to do so and is responsible for it.”

    They likely did hear it, but they have wiring in the brain that tells them not to do something stupid and potentially unlawful. It’s one thing to expect people to say the election was unfair; it’s another to expect them to fight like hell with Capitol police. It’s actually extraordinary that as many came as did….and that Bannon knew it would be wild. The fact that 2/3 of the GOP say the election was stolen….with little to no evidence of it….is pretty good evidence that the GOP is listening intently to Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (fc61e5)

  269. I don’t believe Trump supporters are like al qaeda supporters. They love America, and most believe Trump is the only way to save it.

    But al qaeda believes in what they are doing, too, and that is the problem: If you are willing to support anything the cult leader wants, you invite comparisons to other cults.

    DRJ (8d831d)

  270. Trump at 62% in latest cbs poll desatan falls to 16% everyone else no where’s ville! Posters here ask when republicans will stop supporting trump as he keeps rising in the polls. Trump supporters hate the same people trump hates. Media, never trumpers, elitests/intelligencia. ect. Remember 2024 election will be won in electoral collage in these states az, ga, mi, pa. and wi. In 2020 biden won electoral collage by 43,000 votes combined in 3 states az 10,000 ga 13,000 and wi 20,000 because democrats got green party removed from ballot. 81,000,000 to 73,000,000 votes cast were meaningless and will be again in 2024.

    asset (c47f33)

  271. Thank you, DRJ.

    I remember watching on TV the entire Arab population of Palestine ululating after the 9/11 attacks. Men, women, kids.

    I will not judge Trump’s supporters’ love for America. The ludicrousness of their IRREFUTABLE, TOTALLY EXONERATING, Trump Math Logic? You betcha!

    nk (82fd66)

  272. Perhaps because the u.s supplies israel that helps kill them.

    asset (c47f33)

  273. I am saying that if you blame only one side, then you are wrong.

    How is it anyone else’s fault that Trump lied about an election and had so many gullible followers go along with him?

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  274. The percentage of MAGA Nation that assaulted the Capitol is small, and I won’t put a number to it because I don’t know the number. However, the current RCP average has 55% of Republicans supporting Trump for the nomination, so I will assume that 55% of my fellow Republicans were okay with the insurrection that Trump fomented.
    I mean, how dare someone condemn what occurred that day while supporting its prime instigator.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  275. That’s an ugly comparison. Lynching involved the murder of human beings, which is hardly comparable to how political districts are drawn.

    For 100 years, political districts were drawn to eliminate the possibility of black folk having enough power to force a change in their treatment. That was called “gerrymandering.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  276. Devil’s advocate department:

    Suppose that Trump’s actions on J6 and/or with respect to the false electors were not criminal. We might think they OUGHT to be criminal, but suppose they aren’t.

    The Special Prosecutor has a theory that his actions constituted fraud and similar crimes, but is it actually so? The Fulton County DA says it’s RICO, fraud, forgery and a few other things, but Trump forged nothing. Again, we have a pattern of behavior that OUGHT to be criminal, but is the law being applied so vague and malleable that it constitutes ex post facto?

    What happens if these prosecutions fail, but prevent Trump from competing in a fair and free election? Is that a good thing? I mean, I don’t want him to serve as president either, but I also don’t want to actually rig an election in order to get justice for an attempt to steal one.

    It may be there is no right path, and that anything that is done will tear the country further. Winning isn’t the only thing.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  277. Whenever I hear some PINO (Plantagenet In Name Only) allege implausibly that Henry II had Thomas Becket killed, I patiently explain that Henry was a pussycat who wouldn’t hurt a fly. When Henry asked “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” he was genuinely curious. Well, would no one do it? Everybody was asking. It was a perfect conversation and that was a perfect question. Besides, of all the people who heard him ask it, only four took what in 1170 was surely the quick and convenient jaunt from Normandy to Canterbury to peacefully and patriotically lean on “Saint” Thomas. And sure enough, even of those four, only one lopped the top of Becket’s head off. What does all that tell you about how most of Henry’s subjects understood the question?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  278. Kidding aside, it’s disputed to this day what Henry had in mind, and yet, as his self-imposed penance shows, even he understood the moral culpability of engaging in inflammatory, conveniently ambiguous rhetoric when it leads to something horrific.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  279. Trump supporters believe Trump.

    DRJ (8d831d) — 8/20/2023 @ 6:17 pm

    “Trump supporters” is the key and I would have guessed that it would be more than 71% of them.

    Or maybe I was thinking of the percentage of Trump supporters who believe that we are ruled by lizardoid [yeah, I know the correct word is “reptilian” but they don’t] aliens who control our weather with space lasers.

    nk (bb1548)

  280. “What happens if these prosecutions fail, but prevent Trump from competing in a fair and free election? Is that a good thing?”

    This is big-boy time for the GOP electorate. The charges are not frivolous or political garbage, despite Trump’s protestations. The electorate must decide the wisdom of nominating someone who will be hamstrung by multiple indictments. This is the same GOP electorate that could have pressed for impeachment and removal but chose instead to circle the wagons and indulge conspiracies and cheap what-abouts. Nomination of Trump is just playing with fire. It’s hard to comprehend.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  281. I agree that Trump should have been convicted by the Senate in the second impeachment. However, the impeachment process — despite some assertions — does not require criminal offenses. It simply requires bad behavior (aka “misdemeanor” in the 18th century meaning) and the political will to do something about it.

    These charges are different. They allege criminal acts. They are subject to rules of evidence, constitutional limitations and other things that impeachment can ignore. If the charges are stretched, if there is no good evidence, if there is political animus behind them, we may run the risk of destroying the village in order to save it.

    It’s worth considering.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  282. I’ll go along with felipe’s “there are bad people on both sides” with the reasonable suspicion that if fifteen Republican Senators had voted to convict, seventeen Democrat Senators would have voted to acquit. The Democrats want Mary Anne’s Baby as the rusty nail in the GOP’s foot.

    nk (b77431)

  283. That’s an ugly comparison. Lynching involved the murder of human beings, which is hardly comparable to how political districts are drawn.

    For 100 years, political districts were drawn to eliminate the possibility of black folk having enough power to force a change in their treatment. That was called “gerrymandering.”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/20/2023 @ 10:56 pm

    Still an ugly comparison. Denying the right to vote is still not like murder.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  284. Still an ugly comparison. Denying the right to vote is still not like murder.

    But it started with, was enforced by, and perpetuated such murders. See, for example, the facts in Cruikshank.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  285. lurker (cd7cd4) — 8/20/2023 @ 11:09 pm

    What does all that tell you about how most of Henry’s subjects understood the question?

    Do we know for a fact that Henry II really asked that question (were there witnesses?) or is the whole explanation merely a cover story and he was much more explicit and involved? (with Henry II taking some responsibility in order not to condemn the murderers to death)

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/will-no-one-rid-me-of-this-meddlesome-priest-truth-henry-ii-quote

    (Can’t read what follows)

    I also found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F#:~:text=%22Will%20no%20one%20rid%20me,Archbishop%20of%20Canterbury%2C%20in%201170.

    The initial versions had Henry using a different expression.

    Henry made the outburst on Christmas 1170 at his castle at Bures, Normandy, at the height of the Becket controversy. He had just been informed that Becket had excommunicated a number of bishops supportive of the king, including the Archbishop of York.[1] Edward Grim, who was present at Becket’s murder and subsequently wrote the Life of St. Thomas, quotes Henry as saying:

    What miserable drones and traitors have I nurtured and promoted in my household who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born cleric![2]

    The popular version of the phrase was first used in 1740 by the author and bookseller Robert Dodsley, in his Chronicle of the Kings of England, where he described Henry II’s words as follows: “O wretched Man that I am, who shall deliver me from this turbulent Priest?” This was modelled on Romans 7:24: “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”[3] A similar version of the phrase was later used in George Lyttleton’s 1772 History of the Life of King Henry the Second, where the quote is rendered as “[he said] that he was very unfortunate to have maintained so many cowardly and ungrateful men in his court, none of whom would revenge him of the injuries he sustained from one turbulent priest.”[4][5] In The Chronicle of the Kings of England (1821), it becomes “Will none of these lazy insignificant persons, whom I maintain, deliver me from this turbulent priest?”, which is then shortened to “who shall deliver me from this turbulent priest?”[6]

    The story goes, it was a failed arrest to expel him from England:

    Reportedly, upon hearing the king’s words, four knights—Reginald FitzUrse, Hugh de Morville, William de Tracy and Richard le Breton—travelled from Normandy to Canterbury with the intention of forcing Becket to withdraw his excommunication, or, alternatively, taking him back to Normandy by force.[10] The day after their arrival, they confronted Becket in Canterbury Cathedral. When Becket resisted their attempts to seize him, they slashed at him with their swords, killing him.[11] Although nobody, even at the time, believed that Henry directly ordered that Becket be killed, his words had started a chain of events that was likely to have such a result.[12] Moreover, as Henry’s harangue had been directed not at Becket, but at his own household, the four probably thought that a failure to act would be regarded as treachery, potentially punishable by death.[13]

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  286. nk (82fd66) — 8/20/2023 @ 4:04 pm

    If “the 99%” had taken the side of peaceful protest and law and order and had stopped, or at least said one discouraging word to, “the 1%” then maybe the Trump Math would work. Did they?

    There was a Wisconsin cheese brother, one of Trumps lawyers, who went to the Capitol after his speech and spent his time recording Alex Jones and Ali Alexander. (what the NYT doesn’t say is that they (Alex Jones and Ali Alexander) kept telling the crowd not to go into the Capitol, but to go that-a-way where they would hear Donald Trump speak. Of course maybe this was all just to protect themselves.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/kenneth-chesebro-jan-6-trump.html

    Photographs and videos reviewed by The New York Times suggest that Kenneth Chesebro, one of the legal architects of former President Donald J. Trump’s attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, was in the crowd outside the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, and spent part of that day closely following the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, who helped lead a mob toward the building.

    But not into the building!

    Mr. Chesebro did not appear to have illegally entered the Capitol, as did hundreds of other rioters, or commit any violence.

    The vast majority of the crowd there did not enter the building. Hundreds did, thousands didn’t.

    More:

    It remains unclear why Mr. Chesebro was with Mr. Jones’s group outside the Capitol or how he came to be with them. A lawyer for Mr. Jones said that Mr. Jones was unaware that Mr. Chesebro had been following his entourage that day.

    Maybe who he was he could say.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  287. Mr. Chesebro was charged this week as one of Mr. Trump’s 18 co-defendants in a sprawling racketeering indictment brought by the district attorney’s office in Fulton County, Ga. That indictment accused him of taking part in a sweeping plot to create slates of so-called fake electors pledged to Mr. Trump in several key swing states that Joseph R. Biden Jr. had won.

    The electors were created, and votes and signed things but they were never used.

    That’s like indicting someone for preparing a fraudulent tax return that was never actually filed with the IRS.

    There could be a variety of reasons why they were never used possibly including the attitude of Mike Pence. Or maybe an organized attempt to prevent their delivery or some people backing out.

    After all, the premise behind these self-selected Electors voting was most likely that their respective state legislatures would declare the November election a failed election and, even after the drop dead date passed for the electors to vote, retrospectively pick the electors. (!!!)

    But that hadn’t happened.

    Giuliani was hoping on Jan 6 that it could still happen (!!) claiming that state legislatures wanted to do that. (!!!)

    In the end they were asking Mike Pence
    either to not accept some Electoral votes without asking him to accept others in their place) or to somehow send them back to the states in question for possible correction.

    Mr. Chesebro also appeared as an unnamed co-conspirator in a similar federal indictment brought against Mr. Trump in Washington this month by prosecutors working for the special counsel, Jack Smith. Mr. Chesebro wrote three memos in November and December 2020, which prosecutors used to trace the evolution of the fake elector plan and an attempt to use it as part of a broader effort to pressure Vice President Mike Pence to throw the election to Mr. Trump during a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6, 2021.

    You wonder why they focus on an approach that was abandoned midstream.

    Simply because they can use the word “fraud?” Because they are as bad lawyers as Trump’s post-election lawyers?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  288. More from the New York Times about what the cheese brother was doing at the Capitol on January 6:

    Wearing a red MAGA hat, Mr. Chesebro can be seen joining Mr. Jones’s group outside the Capitol shortly before 2 p.m. that day, according to the photographs and video reviewed by The Times. The visual evidence shows he stayed with Mr. Jones, Mr. Alexander and others — including Owen Shroyer, one of Mr. Jones’s top aides — for about an hour and a half, often filming Mr. Jones on his cellphone as the group walked around the Capitol and went partly up the stairs outside the east front of the building.

    And what was Alex Jones doing? (that Kenneth Chesebro was so anxious to document)

    Probably telling people not to go into the building! (but listen to Donald Trump speak instead)

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/what-conspiracy-theorist-alex-jones-said-in-the-lead-up-to-the-capitol-riot

    Once outside the Capitol, Jones was filmed, bullhorn in hand. “We’re not antifa; we’re not BLM. You’re amazing. I love you. Let’s march around the other side, and let’s not fight the police and give the system what they want. We are peaceful, and we won this election. And as much as I love seeing the Trump flags flying over this, we need to not have the confrontation with the police. They’re gonna make that the story. I’m going to march to the other side, where we have a stage, where we can speak and occupy peacefully.”

    Jones continued: “Trump is going to speak over here. Trump is coming.”

    And that’s what Trump thought, too, until Mark Meadows and others stopped him from going to the Capitol.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  289. The Cheese Brother was also aware of the word “wild”

    But Mr. Chesebro hinted at those connections in an email exchange with John Eastman, another lawyer who was instrumental in the plan to pressure Mr. Pence with the fake elector scheme.

    In late December 2020, the two lawyers discussed how to get a case before the Supreme Court. Mr. Chesebro told Mr. Eastman as they discussed filing a legal action that in terms of the highest court, the “odds of action before Jan. 6 will become more favorable if the justices start to fear that there will be ‘wild’ chaos on Jan. 6 unless they rule by then, either way.”

    He may have thought the wild chaos would be demonstrators and counter-demonstrators fighting each other.

    The mayor of Washington, D.C. Muriel Bowser,and others, were successful in preventing any counter-demonstrators. (which was probably something wanted by the peole who planned the storming of the Capitol)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  290. What happened with Alex Jones and the Jan 6 prosecutions? According to the recent New York Times story:

    Mr. Jones and Mr. Alexander were among the first “Stop the Steal” activists to draw attention from federal prosecutors investigating the Capitol riot. As early as April 2022, Mr. Jones reached out to the Justice Department in an unsuccessful effort to secure an immunity deal in exchange for information. Mr. Alexander was subpoenaed by — and ultimately testified to — a grand jury in Washington that was looking into various aspects of the attack.

    They apparently were not indicted or even mentioned. An aide to Alex Jones, Owen Shroyer, pleaded guilty this June to a single count of illegally entering and remaining on the Capitol’s restricted grounds. He probably wasn’t doing anything Alex Jones did not.

    As the New York Times says there are many mysteries here:

    The convergence of someone who took part in the legal attempts to keep Mr. Trump in power with those who were central to bringing the force of a crowd to bear as Congress was certifying the election results was a powerful reminder of how many mysteries remain where Jan. 6 is concerned.

    Except that these two – Ali Alexander and Alex Jones – were careful to exonerate themselves from responsibility for people entering the building.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  291. The Wisconsin cheese brother has asked for a speedy trial and it may upset all of the Georgia trial scheduling calculations

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/23/us/trump-giuliani-georgia-surrender.html

    Mr. Giuliani, whose bond was set at $150,000, arrived in Atlanta as another defendant in the sprawling case, the lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, filed a motion seeking a speedy trial. Under that scenario, which Georgia law allows, the trial for all 19 people indicted in the case would have to start no later than Nov. 3, months earlier than prosecutors had sought.

    The New York Times cant figure out what he’s trying to do.

    A speedy trial motion is usually files by someone who is in jail (which is not the case here) or someone who wants to rush the prosecutor who may be unprepared. But DA Fani Willis presumably delayed her indictment in order to be prepared.

    It may be an attempt to force a severance.

    In the meantime Fani Willis has countered with a new proposed trial date of October 23. (for all defendents)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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