Patterico's Pontifications

7/13/2021

Covid Anti-Vaxxers And The Republican Party

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:26 am



[guest post by Dana]

The writer of this piece suggests that the formation of an anti-vaxx party is currently underway:

The COVID-19 vaccines are saving lives, but watch Newsmax, and you’d never be able to tell. “I’m not a doctor,” host Rob Schmitt recently warned, before adding, “I feel like a vaccination in a weird way is just generally kind of going against nature.” Perhaps “there’s just an ebb and flow to life where something’s supposed to wipe out a certain amount of people, and that’s just kind of the way evolution goes. Vaccines kind of stand in the way of that.”

There’s nothing inherently conservative about anti-vaccine sentiment. The false claim that childhood vaccines cause autism attracted adherents of various political stripes, from typical right-wingers to crunchy liberals. COVID, however, has become an intensely partisan affair, with the pandemic doubling as a referendum on the Trump presidency. On the right, listening to Joe Biden and Anthony Fauci on vaccines means rejecting Donald Trump, which is heresy.

“Certain amount of people”? Does he mean poor people in undeveloped nations where vaccines are less available and people have less access to them? Those people?? I’m assuming that, in the name of consistency, Schmitt also believes that vaccines against Diptheria, measles, mumps, and smallpox, which have saved untold millions from certain death, are also “against nature,” right??

Anyway, when considering the insanity at CPAC this past weekend, it’s easy to see that, while perhaps not an anti-vaxx party per se is being formed, the dominant message of today’s Republican Party is one that diminishes efforts being made to get more people vaccinated as well as the Covid-19 vaccine itself:

[A]udience members even applauded low national vaccination rates. “They were hoping, the government was hoping, that they could sort of sucker 90 percent of the population into getting vaccinated. And it isn’t happening,” a panelist bragged. Also at CPAC, Madison Cawthorn told a right-wing news site that a door-to-door vaccine push would build “mechanisms” that could someday infringe on dearly held personal liberties. “Think about what those mechanisms could be used for. They could then go door-to-door to take your guns. They could go door-to-door to take your Bibles,” he claimed, without evidence.

The Republican Party will not be taken seriously as long as people like this take front and center in the party. And unfortunately, because a majority of Republicans in office view Trump as the leader of the party, this type of nuttery is now becoming the dominant force in the GOP. You don’t believe me? Consider these popuplar Republican firebrands:

Marjorie Taylor Greene has repeatedly linked the Biden administration’s pandemic guidance to Nazi practices, as though the unvaccinated and unmasked are at risk of genocide. If colleges require vaccinations, they’re enforcing “medical apartheid,” Turning Point USA’s Charlie Kirk claimed. Now Republicans in several states have either introduced or passed legislation prohibiting “discrimination” on the basis of vaccination status, hampering businesses, schools, and employers from implementing common-sense pandemic-safety requirements. On Fox News, Tucker Carlson recently discouraged college students from getting the vaccine altogether. “It’s not good for them. There’s a risk involved, much higher than of COVID, but colleges are forcing them anyway,” he complained.

While reports have repeatedly shown that the young and poor, and those without a college education are more inclined to forego the vaccine, the writer reminds us that often the refusal of the vaccine is, at the heart of it, part of a greater effort to “own the libs”:

The GOP wants to own the libs to death — who dies doesn’t matter. The priority is fealty to Trump above all.

And yet, ironically, Trump and his wife have been vaccinated. How does that work?

The Kaiser Family Foundation recently looked at the Red/Blue divide in vaccination rates:

While the share of the total population that is fully vaccinated has increased for both county groups, it has increased faster in counties that voted for Biden, resulting in a widening gap. Three months ago, as of April 22, the average vaccination rate in counties that voted for Trump was 20.6% compared to 22.8% in Biden counties, yielding a relatively small gap of 2.2 percentage points. By May 11, the gap had increased to 6.5% and by July 6, 11.7%, with the average vaccination rate in Trump counties at 35% compared to 46.7% in Biden counties.

kff1

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Although there has been an overall significant slow-down in COVID-19 vaccination rates in the U.S., these findings show a widening divide of communities at risk for COVID-19 along partisan lines. A key component of any effort to boost vaccination rates among Republicans will be identifying the right messengers…there is a hardcore group of vaccine resisters who are disproportionately Republican and will be difficult to move.

–Dana

138 Responses to “Covid Anti-Vaxxers And The Republican Party”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. The amount of cowardly dishonest stupidity in this thing is mind blowing. If I hadn’t had someone articulate this blather to me live I’d assume it was a Kaufmanesque performance. But it’s not. Enough trump supporters are buying this to make it mainstream conservative thought. I have no idea if there’s enough anti-vax stupidity to meaningfully impact CV19 mutation or if this will lead to other diseases to spreding from reduced vaccine rate. But it’s another data point that while Democrats are wrong about most policy positions a huge swath of the GOP is stupid enough to border on evil.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  3. On the right, listening to Joe Biden and Anthony Fauci on vaccines means rejecting Donald Trump, which is heresy.

    Thing is, the FDA on Monday warned of an increased risk of Guillain-Barre following the J&J vaccine. Yet Fauci said ‘ignore it’ and get pricked anyway. The need for third and fourth ‘boosters’ are being bantered about as well as with ‘The Delta Variant’ [which sounds like a 1974 made-for TV-sci/fi movie starring Lee Majors] mutating across the planet. The luster is off Fauci now what with these contradictions, muddled messaging and surfacing concerns over vaccine viability and need for follow-up booster shots–which may just be Big Pharma’s capitalist way to stick the government for more purchases on the taxpayer’s dime even as the Feds give vaccine away to the world. Past time to press China hard on how this was created/financed in the first place… eat any embarrassment if any of the $ is sourced back to the U.S.– and wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  4. “Think of it as evolution in action”

    –Niven & Pournelle, Oath of Fealty

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. Newsmax host suggests vaccines ‘against nature’
    …….
    The remarks came while host Rob Schmitt was interviewing Peter McCullough, an associate professor in Texas A&M University’s Department of Health and Kinesiology.

    “You know, one thing I’ve always thought, and maybe you can guide me on this because, obviously, I’m not a doctor. But I’ve always thought about vaccines, and I always think about just nature and the way everything works. And I feel like a vaccination in a weird way is just generally kind of going against nature,” Schmitt said.

    “Like, I mean, if there is some disease out there — maybe there’s just an ebb and flow to life where something’s supposed to wipe out a certain amount of people, and that’s just kind of the way evolution goes. Vaccines kind of stand in the way of that. Do you follow what I’m saying? Does that make sense to somebody in medicine?”

    McCullough, who holds a Ph.D. in kinesiology, did not answer the question directly but said there isn’t “any long-term data on the newer vaccines.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. There will always be people who fear that government and the pharmaceutical companies pushed the vaccine through too quickly….and they are making an honest cost/benefit decision based on their perceived risk of contracting Covid and their perceived risk of a negative reaction. Republicans might be a bit more cynical about government generally but I agree this does not explain the wide gap in vaccinations. Like everything else, this becomes yet one more issue that has gotten politicized. Anything that Fauci or Biden wants….and Trump isn’t enthusiastically seconding….becomes a test of loyalty. I hope people do not unnecessarily get sick…or help spread it to people that they care about. My impression is that the statistics weigh strongly on the side of getting vaccinated. Why let dumb politics get in the way….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  7. As for talking about a certain number having to die, who does he think will be doing the dying? Spoiler: it won’t be the vaccinated for the most part.

    A couple weeks ago and anti-vaxxer tried to convince me that vaccines sometimes fail (true) and that being vaccinated was causing people to take risks they otherwise wouldn’t. My response was that, if I was jumping out of an airplane I’d wear a parachute, even though they sometimes fail.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. there isn’t “any long-term data on the newer vaccines.”

    There isn’t any long-term data on the newest candy bars, either. What a moronic statement.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. We must stop appendectomies. God gave you an appendix, and it is unnatural to remove it.

    Fred (ffa60f)

  10. Why let dumb politics get in the way….

    Because conflict and outrage sells and if the grifters can turn this into a culture war issue it gives them one more way to make money off of their marks. Also, the leader off the GOP only cared about himself.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  11. Had Trump been re-elected, it would be the Democrats avoiding the vaccine and all the talking heads would be playing up the risk, while lambasting Trump for the continuing deaths among the unvaccinated. “A genocide!” they’d say.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. Nice one Fred!

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  13. We must stop appendectomies. God gave you an appendix, and it is unnatural to remove it.

    I think Cristian Science takes that position.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. 4. “Sunny and hot out West, partly cloudy in the East; rain showers possible someplace but keep an eye on tropical storm Bozo off Key West. And happy 100th birthday Mazie Cloudburst out there on the reservation near Truth Or Consequences, New Mexico!”- Willard Scott, “weatherman.”

    Think of it as evolution in action.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. Have not taken the republican party seriously since R.R.

    mg (8cbc69)

  16. Prediction: Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman will get their Nobel Prize in Medicine and/or Chemistry later this year, for “the mRNA vaccine.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. There isn’t any long-term data on the newest candy bars, either.

    Might wanna double check w/Mars and Hershey on methods, procedures and FDA regs regarding what goes in to product development and bringing a new food product to market.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  18. @13. The Big Dick’s henchman, HR Haldeman was a Christian Scientist; it helped kill him.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  19. I think Cristian Science takes that position.

    No, it doesn’t.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. There isn’t any long-term data on any new thing. By definition. All they know is it doesn’t kill easily.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. I note that Christian Science has been changing (from Wikipedia)

    Nathan Talbot, a church spokesperson, told the New England Journal of Medicine in 1983 that church members were free to choose medical care, but according to former Christian Scientists those who do may be ostracized. In 2010 the New York Times reported church leaders as saying that, for over a year, they had been “encouraging members to see a physician if they feel it is necessary”, and that they were repositioning Christian Science prayer as a supplement to medical care, rather than a substitute. The church has lobbied to have the work of Christian Science practitioners covered by insurance.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. My impression is that the statistics weigh strongly on the side of getting vaccinated.

    Then again, “liars figure and figures lie.” “Folks” tend to rely on real world experience and common sense. Back in the day, as noted on another head, Jerry Ford’s swine flu vaccine was rushed out; half the guys got the freebee, half didn’t. The half that got pricked got sicker than dogs, literally upchucking in the showers– bad batch of vaccine. ‘Upshot’ was we threw a helluva campus party out of it: “Shots For the Masses”– Jack Daniels. That killed any gut bugs for sure. Just wash your hands and keep wearing the masks. Fauci’s ‘credibility’ is waning fast. Too many mixed messages comig u between the Feds, the states and local official. Bu gee, sure hope Lee Major 1974 hit, ‘The Delta Variant” is ou on DVD now. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. @10 wondering if the covid lab leak theory is still racist

    those that injected politics are having regrets

    JF (e1156d)

  24. From The Wall Street Journal:

    Some 38% of people ages 18 to 29 years received at least one vaccine dose, the lowest rate among any age group eligible to get immunized, according to a U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report late last month. The elderly had the highest vaccination rate, at 80%.

    Joe Biden carried the 18 to 29 year age bracket 62% to 35%, his highest age demographic.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  25. 6. AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 7/13/2021 @ 10:28 am

    There will always be people who fear that government and the pharmaceutical companies pushed the vaccine through too quickly….

    That;s what the Democrats were accusing Donald Trump of doing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/18/what-andrew-cuomo-kamala-harris-said-about-vaccine-skepticism

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/us/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine.html

    With deaths from the coronavirus nearing 200,000 in the United States, Joseph R. Biden Jr. on Wednesday assailed President Trump for playing politics with a potential coronavirus vaccine, saying he did not trust Mr. Trump to determine when a vaccine was ready for Americans.

    “Let me be clear: I trust vaccines,” Mr. Biden said. “I trust scientists. But I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either.”

    Shortly after Mr. Biden’s speech in Wilmington, Del., Mr. Trump seemed to lend credence to the former vice president’s criticism by publicly rebuking the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for saying that widespread vaccination might not be possible until the middle of next year….

    And that’s why I think, the pharmaceutical companies and the civil servants n the FDA timed things so that, to Trump’s frustration, the vaccines and the manufactured monoclonal antibody treatments would only be approved after November 3. They made as early as they could without getting it approved for emergency use earlier. Sort of like The Price is Right but in reverse.

    This was the “October Surprise” allegation against Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush about delaying the release of the hostages in Iran in 1980 that, in the late 1980s Jimmy Carter inspired (yes I think he was behind it) a for real.

    Some of that may be left over, but the true permanent home of the anti-vaxxers is the Republican Party. The rally at the Capitol on January 6 did happen, in spite of the fact that people stormed the Capitol, and anti-vaxxers spoke.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/us/far-right-extremism-anti-vaccine.html

    ….On Jan. 6, while rioters advanced on the Capitol, numerous leading figures in the anti-vaccination movement were onstage nearby, holding their own rally to attack both the election results and Covid-19 vaccinations.

    Events overshadowed their protest, but at least one outspoken activist, Dr. Simone Gold of Beverly Hills, Calif., was charged with breaching the Capitol. She called her arrest an attack on free speech….

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  26. OT: “Lottsa friends here. Al! Al Sharpton! How’ya doin’, pal?!” – President Plagiarist, Philadephia, PA 7/13/21

    Tawana Brawley!

    IDIOT!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. Same March 2021 New York Times article I linkked to but not behind a paywall:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/far-right-extremists-move-from-stop-the-steal-to-stop-the-vaccine

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  28. The Big Dick’s henchman, HR Haldeman was a Christian Scientist; it helped kill him.

    If Haldeman was a true Christian Scientist, he would not have been involved with Nixon or criminal behavior (but I repeat myself).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  29. President Plagiarist’s Philly speech is the most hypocritical pile of steaming, “lying dog-faced pony soldier” poop since he plagiarized Kinnock’s steaming pile of poop. Where is the press calling this creep out as a blatant liar?

    Oh. Right. Lunching in the West Wing.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. @28.He was. It killed him.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  31. @28 now do biden and catholicism

    JF (e1156d)

  32. This is terribly cynical of me, but I can’t help wondering if Rob Schmitt has been conned by someone who wants more dead Americans, especially older Republicans.

    (More than 600K dead, so far, is more than enough for me, but I am reasonably sure “Czar” Putin and “Emperor” Xi would like to see that total higher. And their followers here will try to distract us from fighting the virus,)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  33. Sammy, That’s a pretty interesting take. I wonder what the calculus was.

    Did they move as fast as possible and let the chips fall as they would?
    Did they wait for legitimate reasons such as concerns about public confidence?
    Was it something in the middle where they were aware of what a pre-nov announcement might look like but took no overt action on it.

    I haven’t seen any good reporting on that. Have you?

    It’s odd that Trump didn’t put much energy into trying to get credit for the vaccine. It’s arguable that his positive perception wold be up if he’d put energy into advocating for the vaccine that was developed on his watch. Might have boxed Biden into giving Trump more credit and broadened the Trump brand beyond election conspiracy theories.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  34. To be fair, Schmitt probably doesn’t know that George Washington vaccinated all his soldiers against smallpox, or that Jefferson offered smallpox vaccine to Indian tribes. (Lewis and Clark actually took smallpox vaccine with them on their famous journey. Sadly, it may not have been viable, given the conditions. But it was the right thing to do.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  35. @31. now do biden and catholicism

    Get… the comfy chair!

    “Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!” – Monty Python’s Flying Circus, BBC TV, 9/22/1970

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. 26. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/13/2021 @ 11:52 am

    Al! Al Sharpton! How’ya doin’, pal?!” – President Plagiarist, Philadephia, PA 7/13/21

    Al Sharpton is happy as long as his money is not cut off.

    Joe Biden met with all but official New York City mayoral nominee Eric Adams very publicly (unless Adams is responsible for the publicity 0 there were amany people there. Biden is trying to use Eric Adams as cover for moving to the center or right in the matter of policing.

    https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/07/09/biden-meeting-on-gun-violence-

    Al Sharpton, by the way, had a long standing friendly relationahip with Donald Trump.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/09/trumps-pal-al-sharpton

    Sharpton and Trump forged an unlikely friendship over Atlantic City boxing deals that has lasted for decades, through ups and downs. Even as the Tawana Brawley scandal unfolded and Sharpton faced a 67-count indictment involving how he used funding for his youth organization, Trump remained a prominent supporter of the agitator, numerous sources close to the two men tell National Review….

    …Trump, who had bet big on Atlantic City, knew he needed a fresh lure to draw tourists away from the Nevada deserts and toward the New Jersey boardwalk. The man who could deliver star boxers to Trump and his casinos was Don King, the famed promoter.

    Al Sharpton was close to Don King and Don King had been a member of organized crime in the 1950s – the key figure behind Mapp v Ohio 367 U.S. 643 (1961) which extended the exclusionary rule to the states.

    Another Supreme Court victory by organized crime was Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967) which held that eavesdropping was covered by the 4th amendment. In 1968 Congress passed a special law to take care of that.

    ….King was also close with Sharpton, and he decided to introduce him to Trump, both King and Sharpton say….The relationship worked, King says, because Sharpton and Trump shared core values, among them commitment to the rights of women and minorities.

    But other sources have suggested that Trump was more calculating: Supporting Sharpton would cement his relationship with King, which would allow Trump to continue booking major stars for Atlantic City events.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  37. Mitch McConnell has been doing the right thing for months.

    Still, in stops across Kentucky this week, Sen. McConnell has been encouraging the Republican-leaning state’s residents to get vaccinated as soon as possible.

    “There may be some segments of our population that still have some reservations about this for one reason or another,” he said. “But, what I heard from these health care professionals behind me, is there’s no real good reason not to get the vaccination.”

    McConnell was somewhat at odds last year with former President Donald Trump over the wearing of masks, which McConnell consistently encouraged.

    And he was right on masks, too.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  38. Uh oh. Comment in moderation. I suspect it was the use of “ret@rd”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  39. The low vaccination rates so far for minorities should be a scandal.

    But it’s another data point that while Democrats are wrong about most policy positions a huge swath of the GOP is stupid enough to border on evil.

    So, it’s true. I heard someone on a radio show say something along the lines of ‘Conservatives think liberals are people with bad ideas; liberals think conservatives are bad people with ideas.’

    This asshole position was just confirmed.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  40. @39, did you just just call me an asshole?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  41. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/13/2021 @ 10:30 am

    My response was that, if I was jumping out of an airplane I’d wear a parachute, even though they sometimes fail.

    This wasn’t a good analogy the last time you made it either. The seatbelt analogy is probably a better one.

    frosty (f27e97)

  42. 33. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/13/2021 @ 12:16 pm

    Was it something in the middle where they were aware of what a pre-nov announcement might look like but took no overt action on it.

    The FDA rigged the rules so that a vaccine could not be approved so soon, and the companies deliberately did not try to get it approved before November 3 and Trump relented on his pressure on the Food and Drug Adninistration.

    It was actually the monoclonal antibodies that were approved immediately after the election. The vaccnes took a little longer. But Trump (and his people) were pushing.

    Trump was in contact with the companies and trusted the upper management – trusted them certainly not to produce something that hurt people – and he had medical experts also telling him it was good.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  43. Jim, I wish Mitch had more influence. Unfortunately the GOP is now the Trump show so this type of nonsense is what we get.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  44. Sammy, that makes sense. Not trying to obligate you to do my research for me, but if you have sources you’d recommend I’d be greatful.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  45. I haven’t seen any good reporting on that. Have you?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-guidelines.html

    Top White House officials are blocking strict new federal guidelines for the emergency release of a coronavirus vaccine, objecting to a provision that would almost certainly guarantee that no vaccine could be authorized before the election on Nov. 3, according to people familiar with the approval process.

    Facing a White House blockade, the Food and Drug Administration is seeking other avenues to ensure that vaccines meet the guidelines. That includes sharing the standards — perhaps as soon as this week — with an outside advisory committee of experts that is supposed to meet publicly before any vaccine is authorized for emergency use. The hope is that the committee will enforce the guidelines, regardless of the White House’s reaction.

    The struggle over the guidelines is part of a monthslong tug of war between the White House and federal agencies on the front lines of the pandemic response. White House officials have repeatedly intervened to shape decisions and public announcements in ways that paint the administration’s response to the pandemic in a positive light….

    …By refusing to allow the Food and Drug Administration to release them, the White House is undercutting the government’s effort to reassure the public that any vaccine will be safe and effective, health experts fear.

    “The public must have full faith in the scientific process and the rigor of F.D.A.’s regulatory oversight if we are to end the pandemic,” the biotech industry’s trade association pleaded on Thursday, in a letter to President Trump’s health secretary, Alex M. Azar II, asking for release of the guidelines.

    The Food and Drug Administration submitted the guidelines to the Office of Management and Budget for approval more than two weeks ago, but they stalled in the office of Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff. Their approval is now seen as highly unlikely.

    A main sticking point has been the recommendation that volunteers who have participated in vaccine clinical trials be followed for a median of two months after the final dose before any authorization is granted, according to a senior administration official and others familiar with the situation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Given where the clinical trials stand, that two-month follow-up period would all but preclude any emergency clearance before Election Day.

    The conflict began almost as soon as the Food and Drug Administration submitted the guidelines to the White House budget office on Monday, Sept. 21. The next day, Dr. Stephen M. Hahn, the F.D.A. commissioner, briefed Mr. Azar on the matter.

    That Wednesday, Mr. Meadows raised a series of concerns, a senior administration official said. He questioned the need for two months of follow-up data, said that stricter recommendations would change the rules in the middle of clinical trials and suggested that Dr. Hahn was overly influenced by his agency’s career scientists.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-10-05/white-house-nixes-tougher-fda-guidelines-on-vaccine-approval

    The Food and Drug Administration released updated safety standards Tuesday for makers of COVID-19 vaccines despite efforts by the White House to block them, clearing the way for requirements that are widely expected to prevent the introduction of a vaccine before Election Day….

    ….President Donald Trump has repeatedly insisted a vaccine could be authorized before Nov. 3, even though top government scientists working on the effort have said that timeline is very unlikely. On Monday Trump said vaccines are coming “momentarily,” in a video recorded after he returned to the White House.

    Former FDA officials have warned that public perception that a vaccine was being rushed out for political reasons could derail efforts to vaccinate millions of Americans.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/07/trump-says-no-presidents-ever-pushed-the-fda-like-him-vaccine-coming-very-shortly.html

    President Donald Trump said in a video that “no president’s ever pushed” the FDA like he has as concerns mount that the administration is pressuring the agency.

    The agency on Tuesday published new guidance for vaccine manufacturers that said they need to provide at least two months of follow-up safety data after vaccinating trial participants to apply for authorization.

    That makes the authorization of a vaccine before the Nov. 3 presidential election highly unlikely.

    ….Beyond discussing vaccines, Trump also touted experimental monoclonal antibody treatments from biotech company Regeneron and pharmaceutical firm Eli Lilly. Trump was given an 8 gram dose of Regeneron’s antibody cocktail early in the course of his Covid-19 infection.

    “They call them therapeutic, but to me it wasn’t therapeutic, it just made me better. I call that a cure,” he said in the video posted Wednesday. “I have emergency use authorization all set and we got to get it signed now.”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  46. They set the two months minimum to carry it past Election Day but nit too much past it. Thsis was a late change. The excuse devolved to that it was necessary so that the public would have confidence in the vaccine – that meant that Democrats wouldn’t criticize it.

    It’s odd that Trump didn’t put much energy into trying to get credit for the vaccine. It’s arguable that his positive perception wold be up if he’d put energy into advocating for the vaccine that was developed on his watch. Might have boxed Biden into giving Trump more credit and broadened the Trump brand beyond election conspiracy theories.

    By that time the election was over. Trump was trying to win in overtime.

    And maybe he was told that would make things worse. Je was still coming under attack for pushing thins too fast;

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/529781-trump-pressures-fda-to-approve-coronavirus-vaccine

    Trump pressures FDA to approve coronavirus vaccine

    BY MORGAN CHALFANT – 12/11/20 07:37 AM EST

    President Trump on Friday publicly pressured the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to move more quickly in approving a coronavirus vaccine, lamenting that the organization was acting like a “big, old, slow turtle.”

    “While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!” Trump tweeted early Friday, tagging FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn in the message.

    The tweet came hours after a federal panel of outside experts voted to recommend the FDA grant emergency use authorization to the vaccine produced by Pfizer and BioNTech, saying that the safety and efficacy of the vaccine outweighs the risks. The FDA is widely expected to follow the recommendation, and a decision could be made within days….

    ….Still, the overall process has not been fast enough for Trump, who initially predicted that a vaccine could be ready before Election Day and has publicly pressured the FDA to move more quickly.

    Back in August, Trump suggested without evidence that members of a “deep state” within the FDA were slowing the vaccine approval process for political reasons.

    Three countries — the United Kingdom, Bahrain and Canada — have approved the Pfizer vaccine for use on their citizens. The U.K. begin distributing the vaccine to high-risk individuals on Tuesday, a milestone in the global fight against COVID-19….

    ….The president continued to play down the rising number of cases, falsely attributing them to an increase in testing, and defended his administration’s decision to hold holiday parties during the pandemic.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-07/trump-says-fda-pulled-political-hit-job-with-vaccine-rules

    By Jordan Fabian
    October 6, 2020, 8:45 PM CDT Updated on October 6, 2020, 9:16 PM CDT

    ….President Donald Trump accused the Food and Drug Administration of carrying out a “political hit job” against him by releasing new standards that could delay authorization of a coronavirus vaccine until after the November election.

    “New FDA Rules make it more difficult for them to speed up vaccines for approval before Election Day. Just another political hit job!” the president wrote in a tweet that tagged his hand-picked FDA commissioner, Stephen Hahn.

    Trump, who is battling a coronavirus infection himself, commented hours after the FDA issued strict new requirements for Covid-19 vaccine applications, including a review by a panel of experts and two months of safety data. The guidelines are intended to reassure the American public any vaccine is safe and effective, amid accusations that the Trump administration’s response to the virus has been tainted by politics.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  47. @28.He was. It killed him.
    Haldeman was as immoral and criminal as any other member of the Nixon administration. Christian Science is more than “refusing” medical treatment. It certainly does not condone criminal behavior, lying, hate, etc. I know whereof I speak, I was raised in CS. But I know that you are not interested in a serious discussion, you just want to be sarcastic and flip.

    Christian Science didn’t kill HRH. Haldeman died as a result of his own sins.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  48. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/13/2021 @ 10:31 am

    There isn’t any long-term data on the newest candy bars, either. What a moronic statement.

    I need to read further ahead. I could have merged these comments.

    Not only is this not a good analogy it’s not true. You’re thinking re-arranging chocolate, various nuts, and corn syrup isn’t an understood activity that does not have a lot of long-term data behind it?

    Comments like these don’t lend credence to the “get vaccinated or grandma dies” argument.

    frosty (f27e97)

  49. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/world/covid-vaccine-trump.html

    March 16, 2021
    Former President Donald J. Trump recommended in a nationally televised interview on Tuesday evening that Americans who are reluctant to be vaccinated against the coronavirus should go ahead with inoculations.

    Mr. Trump and his wife, Melania, were vaccinated in January. And vaccine proponents have called on him to speak out in favor of the shots to his supporters — many of whom remain reluctant, polls show.

    Speaking to Maria Bartiromo on “Fox News Primetime,” Mr. Trump said, “I would recommend it, and I would recommend it to a lot of people that don’t want to get it — and a lot of those people voted for me frankly.

    He added: “It is a safe vaccine, and it is something that works.”

    The reason that Donald Trump and Melania did’t get the vaccine till January is probably because it is not recommended to get a vaccine too close to a recent infection. Trump did not announce it at the time.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  50. The guidelines are intended to reassure the American public any vaccine is safe and effective, amid accusations that the Trump administration’s response to the virus has been tainted by politics.

    Now where were these accusations coming from?

    People in publishing, but they were being echoed by prominent Democrats.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  51. 47. Christian Science didn’t kill HRH.

    Execept it did: I certainly accelerated it- per his own family by denying himself medical treatment for stomach cancer. As to ‘flippancy’ – not wise to project your own shortcomings. W/Haldeman, it’s simply a matter of fact. Get over yourself.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  52. Comments like these don’t lend credence to the “get vaccinated or grandma dies” argument.

    The mixed messaging from Federal, state ad local officials is almost as much of a killer. Common sense rules: wear a mask, wash your hands… and look for the pill over the hill; there’s a pill for everything in America.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  53. Today’s NYT has a Q&A on COVID and includes these worrisome claims: The Delta variant is much more easily transmitted, and about twice as likely to put you in the hospital.

    (The Australians found a case of transmission from a “brief encounter of two people passing each other in a shopping mall. . . . They breathed each other’s air for only seconds.” (It was recorded on a security camera, and the transmission was verified with genetic tests.)

    The Q&A is written by Tara Parker-Pope.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  54. @51 I =it

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  55. @53. “Andromeda will be every where! They’ll never be rid of it!” – Dr. Jeremy Stone [Arthur Hill] ‘The Andromeda Strain’ 1971

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  56. I also remember a story where Trump (or the White House) had given up on trying to stop the FDA from establishing guidelines that mathematically pushed authorization of a vaccine past November 3 because the companies had given up on that.

    This doesn’t seem to mention as a reason for Matthews relenting that the companies did not support an attempt to reverse the FDA’s decision.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-agrees-to-fdas-guidelines-for-vetting-covid-19-vaccines-11602011953

    A senior administration official said Mr. Meadows and other officials questioned the need for the FDA to change vaccine standards that they felt had been effective for decades. Mr. Meadows wanted to ensure any additional guidelines were based on science and not on political pressure, the official said.

    The FDA, however, was prepared to follow its guidelines even though the White House hadn’t signed off, and the agency had notified vaccine makers about the details….

    ,,,,Aside from taking issue with the waiting period, White House officials also complained that the FDA was presenting its plans too late for companies to adjust, since the pivotal studies for leading vaccine candidates could possibly provide key results by the end of this month, the people said.

    But the FDA had already given the guidelines to companies and told them to expect their vaccines should meet the standards in order to secure authorization.

    Drugmakers have said they support efforts to make sure vaccines are cleared based on scientific evidence, not politics. Last week, Pfizer Inc. Chief Executive Albert Bourla sent a note to employees expressing support for a “a rigorous independent scientific evaluation and a robust independent approval process.”

    Health authorities have expressed concern that many Americans won’t take a vaccine if they are concerned it was rushed for political reasons.

    OK, so they avoided vaccine refusal by Democrats. But that, of course, was not the only place it was coming from.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  57. 52. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/13/2021 @ 1:29 pm

    Common sense rules: wear a mask

    Mostly wrong, although masks reduce the level of transmission by some 30% to 50% pf what it otherwise would be. The really key factors are ventilation and sunlight.

    wash your hands…

    Completely false, based on a blatantly wrong theory of ow flu spreads. Needed to explain long distance transmission by people who claimed you needed to be within 6 to 15 feeet to breathe the virus in.

    and look for the pill over the hill; there’s a pill for everything in America.

    It’ll take two or three years tll they approve a pill.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/17/health/covid-pill-antiviral.html

    The new program, announced on Thursday by the Department of Health and Human Services, will speed up the clinical trials of a few promising drug candidates. If all goes well, some of those first pills could be ready by the end of the year. The Antiviral Program for Pandemics will also support research on entirely new drugs — not just for the coronavirus, but for viruses that could cause future pandemics.

    A number of other viruses, including influenza, H.I.V. and hepatitis C, can be treated with a simple pill. But despite more than a year of research, no such pill exists to treat someone with a coronavirus infection before it wreaks havoc. Operation Warp Speed, the Trump administration’s program for accelerating Covid-19 research, invested far more money in the development of vaccines than of treatments, a gap that the new program will try to fill….

    And you could also gibe a easy to press in needle pad.

    And the vaccine could be given as a pill:

    https://fortune.com/2021/05/04/vaccine-jabs-covid-19-pills-nasal-sprays-vaxart-altimmune

    In a survey commissioned by Vaxart, and released last week, about 23% of people polled in the U.S. said they did not want to be jabbed with a COVID-19 vaccine. But about one-third of those said they would take a vaccine tablet if it were available. Based on that, Vaxart estimates that a tablet might bump up by another 19 million the number of people in the U.S. who are willing be immunized—perhaps enough for the country to reach herd immunity. On Monday, Vaxart said its Phase I trials had shown bigger CD8+ T cell responses than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, and broad immunity to the coronavirus.

    And then there’s a spray:

    “When you mention a vaccine to the general public, what pops into their mind immediately is a syringe,” says Michael Russell, professor emeritus of microbiology and immunology at the University of Buffalo and a specialist in nasal vaccines. “A lot of us who have worked in this field for decades think, ‘Hang on, you’ve got this all backwards.’”

    For a virus that ravages the respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts, he says, oral and nasal vaccines could be at least as effective as the COVID-19 vaccines in use now. “To a lot of us, it seems to make sense,” he says.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  58. OT-

    WTF: VP Kamala Harris meets with Texas House Democrats- the folks ‘committing an act of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government.’

    You know… INSURRECTIONISTS!

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insurrectionist

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  59. Comments like these don’t lend credence to the “get vaccinated or grandma dies” argument.

    It’s a fine line between genius and…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  60. Jim Miller #53

    But atwo weeks ago the NYT reported:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/health/delta-variant-covid-england.html

    The Delta variant, which is now responsible for most coronavirus infections in England, is not driving a surge in the rate of hospitalizations there, according to data released by Public Health England on Thursday.

    Although the number of coronavirus infections has risen sharply in recent weeks, hospitalization rates remain low. Between June 21 and June 27, the weekly hospitalization rate was 1.9 per 100,000 people, the same as it was the previous week.

    Of course that might because many people are vaccinared or ave been exposed. Further down in the article it says a single shot in significantly less effective against the Delta variant. (the one from India)

    People who are vaccinated can test positive with the Delta variant – they almost never grade the infection when they talk about that. But this artcle says

    Breakthrough infections, or those that occur in people who are fully vaccinated, tend to cause mild or no symptoms.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  61. 58/ The Texas House Democrats (members of the State Senate are nit participating) are not using any force or violence – not even urinating on the walls.

    Some of what they want to stop doesn’t exist anyway in many states. Republicans want to outlaw 24 hour voting and drive by voting in Texas

    Q. Don’t more Republicans have cars?

    There is an election fraud issue in a City Council race in New York (Republican primary Staten Island 50th district)

    It was caught I sppose because of many signature mismatches and duplicate votes cast.

    If somebody’s looking out these things are going to get caught and getting caught usually matters in the United States

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  62. The Tennessee Department of Health will halt all adolescent vaccine outreach – not just for coronavirus, but all diseases – amid pressure from Republican state lawmakers, according to an internal report and agency emails obtained by the Tennessean. If the health department must issue any information about vaccines, staff are instructed to strip the agency logo off the documents.

    https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-halts-all-vaccine-outreach-minors-not-just-covid-19/7928701002/

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  63. @62 vaccine outreach should be through the parents

    i know, to a lefty that seems really weird

    JF (e1156d)

  64. Sammy, thank you for the additional context. Kind of you to take the time.

    Time123 (723ab6)

  65. @62 vaccine outreach should be through the parents

    i know, to a lefty that seems really weird

    C’mon, man… it takes a village.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. If somebody’s looking out

    If wishes were horses…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  67. @25: See 11

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  68. I haven’t seen any good reporting on that. Have you?

    The vaccine announcements came about a week after the election. They clearly had preliminary data before the election that they could have shared (it doesn’t just appear all at once), but did not. Trump accused them of dragging their feet on this. Just because Trump says it does not mean it isn’t true.

    Given the way the vaccine was quickly developed (less than a month after getting the genome from some brave Chinese scientists), they were MAKING vaccine shortly thereafter and setting up the production. If they really had not cared about testing, or had used a rapid testing regime (e.g. prisoners), they might have had some vaccine a few months earlier. But not in any quantity.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. Trump’s inability to get credit for the vaccine, or to get a preliminary announcement before the election was mostly due to his ineptitude. Reagan had just as much opposition from Congress and the bureaucracy, but he was able to break through by speaking directly to the people when he needed to.

    Of course, Reagan would pick his fights and win; Trump picked all fights and lost most of them. Still does.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  70. The Tennessee Department of Health will halt all adolescent vaccine outreach – not just for coronavirus, but all diseases

    How does Trump do this? Does he have an insanity ray or something?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  71. “@62 vaccine outreach should be through the parents

    i know, to a lefty that seems really weird”

    It was obviously uncontroversial pre-covid. I wonder what changed.

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  72. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/13/2021 @ 3:45 pm

    It’s one of the functions of the space laser.

    Davethulhu (aa6793) — 7/13/2021 @ 3:53 pm

    I wonder what changed.

    Seems a bit nutty but odd things happen when “government officials” and “experts” spend enough time torching their credibility.

    frosty (f27e97)

  73. Dana, I appreciate your post. Kevin M, thank you. The usual suspects, well, no surprise there.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  74. Those who trash McCain and Romney for being squishy should consider how Trump has acted in regards to the vaccine. Did he have a big press conference showing his vaccination? No. Has he pushed vaccination loudly and often? No. He’s just straddling the fence trying to have it both ways. So who is the weasel now?

    norcal (25df9b)

  75. Kevin, you raise good points. Trump has always seemed more into the messaging then the results. It wouldn’t surprise me if he didn’t prioritize understanding the details. I still think the inside story would be interesting.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  76. Frosty, That’s a clever retort and that rationale explains why trumpublicans cheer it on. But the original question of what changed to make it a bad policy remains a good one. I’d hope that state level leadership would make those kinds of decisions on actual public health concerns, and not to score rhetorical points. But, I doubt it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  77. Norcal, That’s part of what made him such a weak leader. He was frightened to make decisions in the face of risks and preferred equivocate and put his energy in to messaging that he’d been right all along and whatever happened was either. GREAT or TOTALLY SOMEONE ELSE FALT & FAKE NEWS

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  78. Colonel Haiku wrote:

    The low vaccination rates so far for minorities should be a scandal.

    The credentialed media justified it, ’cause blacks had been oppressed by Teh Man, so naturally they didn’t trust anything offered by the government.

    Except welfare, of course.

    One point that so many have missed: with blacks having greater vaccine hesitancy, and southern states generally having a higher percentage of the population being black, that helps to explain why vaccination rates are lower in Dixie.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  79. Other Dana, that’s a really interesting point. Do you know anyone has done a breakdown by state by race?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  80. I love the Twitter impression, Time! All caps, misspelled “falt”, and “&”! Well done, good sir.

    norcal (25df9b)

  81. ETA your point about the demographics was interesting. Your thing about minorities and welfare was just a mildly racist joke.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  82. If the vax was a drug that you’d smoke
    Couldn’t keep it away from the woke
    They’d say it’s fine
    Would vax all the time
    And say, “This is really great dope!”

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  83. Norcal, I also dropped the ‘s on ELSE

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  84. Trump picked all fights and lost most of them.

    Except Trump won the Republican Party; Reagan and his “heirs” lost it.

    Welcome to 1964.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. Mr 123 asked:

    Other Dana, that’s a really interesting point. Do you know anyone has done a breakdown by state by race?

    You’re kidding, right? If anyone in the credentialed media did do something like that, it could yield information that blacks are causing lowered immunization levels, and nothing, I mean nothing! can be published that would, in any way, be seen as critical of blacks.

    The more direct answer is that no, I’ve seen nothing at all like that in the sources I read. The Philadelphia Inquirer was all over the stories of black hesitancy toward the virus, blaming it on ‘systemic racism’ and past mistreatment and anything else they could, but all of a sudden those stories just stopped.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48)

  86. @83 Oh, I missed that! Even better!

    norcal (25df9b)

  87. “Chaos in South Africa is a lesson for America”?

    I think it’s more the case that the chaos in American Blue cities last year was a lesson for South Africa.

    Colonel Haiku (055db5)

  88. Thanks Other Dana, I’ll dig around. That type of detail isn’t usually covered in a lot of popular reporting.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  89. @81. ‘…racist joke:’

    “Well I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.” – Squinty McStumblebum

    Better still, did you hear the one about the racist, brain-damaged Irish mick who quipped, “You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.” ?!?!?!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEG1wuoa2hs

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  90. The right-rabble will just say “Chinese Wife” with regard to Mitch’s rational outlook on Covid. Dont think Huffines and West arent ginning up ways to highlight Greg Abbott’s marriage to a Mexican born woman in general and with specific regard to his early pandemic period response.

    urbanleftbehind (0b3e71)

  91. urbanleftbehind – You may want to check Abbot’s Wikipedia biography.

    (Cecilia seems like an impressive lady, judging by her brief biography.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  92. Abbott’s, of course.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  93. I’m not disparaging by any means, but in this run further and further to the right world…

    urbanleftbehind (0b3e71)

  94. …and stand corrected to a large degree…I thought she was more in the Columba Bush or Mrs. Trump I and III mold.

    urbanleftbehind (0b3e71)

  95. Meanwhile, any bets on a hair sniff?

    https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/olivia-rodrigo-announces-white-house-163617574.html

    Nursing, California Post Office Jobs, and, in this century, singing lead in High School Musical adaptations

    urbanleftbehind (0b3e71)

  96. urbanleftbehind – According to Wikipedia, Cecilia Phalen Abbott is the “granddaughter of Mexican immigrants” It is still possible she was born in Mexico, but very unlikely, especially considering the fact that her father came from Michigan of Irish stock.

    So, almost certainly just two of her grandparents were born in Mexico — but, sadly, I fear that your general point is right, that her ancestry will be used against her.

    (It is not hard to understand why the Abbott’s have chosen to emphasize her mother’s side of the family, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had done the opposite, were the Irish vote as important as the Hispanic vote in Texas.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  97. urbanleftbehind – Sorry. I think we were composing our comments at the same time, and so I didn’t see your #94, before I submitted my #96.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  98. 68. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/13/2021 @ 3:37 pm

    The vaccine announcements came about a week after the election.

    I was thinking that, but it’s the authorization of the cure (monoclonal antibodies – of course first the less effective one from Eli Lilly rather than the Regeneron ones that cured President Trump that came a week after the election. (of course a cure is better to have than a vaccine because a cure deals with infections that happened one week or two ago and a vaccine deals with infections that will happen six weeks from now. There could be an 8 week tmme lag between them. And you only need to give the treatment to the limited number of people infected. On the other hand, you won’t catch everyone in time and some people may suffer long term effects. But a treatment should be the priority.)

    The vaccine took about a month longer but it did start before the end of calendar year 2020. I think the submission of data came sooner and the FDA was announcing meetings to consider it and taking its time.

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-announces-advisory-committee-meeting-discuss-covid-19-vaccine

    November 20, 2020

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has scheduled a meeting of its Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) on Dec. 10 [almost three weeks later!] to discuss the request for emergency use authorization (EUA) of a COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer, Inc. in partnership with BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH.

    “The FDA recognizes that transparency and dialogue are critical for the public to have confidence in COVID-19 vaccines. I want to assure the American people that the FDA’s process and evaluation of the data for a potential COVID-19 vaccine will be as open and transparent as possible,” said FDA Commissioner Stephen M. Hahn, M.D. “The FDA has been preparing for the review of EUAs for COVID-19 vaccines for several months and stands ready to do so as soon as an EUA request is submitted. While we cannot predict how long the FDA’s review will take, the FDA will review the request as expeditiously as possible, while still doing so in a thorough and science-based manner, so that we can help make available a vaccine that the American people deserve as soon as possible. A discussion about the safety and effectiveness of Pfizer and BioNTech’s vaccine with this committee, made up of outside scientific and public health experts from around the country, will help ensure clear public understanding of the scientific data and information that the FDA will evaluate in order to make a decision about whether to authorize a vaccine for emergency use for the prevention of COVID-19.”

    ….In terms of timing of the VRBPAC meeting following the submission of the EUA request, this amount of time will allow the FDA to thoroughly evaluate the data and information submitted in the EUA request before the meeting and to be prepared for a robust public discussion with the advisory committee members.

    The week of Nov. 23, the FDA intends to issue a Federal Register notice with details of the meeting, which will include information about a public docket for comments. At that time, public comments can be submitted. These comments will be reviewed by the FDA…

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  99. 82.

    If the vax was a drug that you’d smoke

    If it had been illegal, you wouldn’t need to wait for the FDA, just for state legislatures or referendums and nobody would worry too much about the quality of the science.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  100. Approval for the vaccine actually was dependent on hundreds of thousands of people getting sick. Without that there would be no way to determine whether the vaccine was better than a placebo.

    Well, you could look at antibody levels or give people a challenge test but that’s considered more unethical than waiting for more people to die.

    Approval came a little bit sooner than expected because there was a second wave in the fall. This provided the statistical power.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  101. I think it’s maybe Vladimir Putin who has the insanity ray – well he doesn’t, but still..

    https://www.britannica.com/list/the-top-covid-19-vaccine-myths-spreading-online


    MYTH: The COVID-19 vaccine being developed by Oxford University and AstraZeneca will turn people into monkeys.

    THE FACTS: This false claim is based on the fact that Oxford and AstraZeneca’s vaccine relies on a modified chimpanzee adenovirus intended to generate an immune response to the virus that causes COVID-19. According to The Times of London, the claim is being promoted through memes and video clips as part of a disinformation campaign involving officials in Russian state agencies, specifically targeted at countries where Russia wants to sell its own COVID-19 vaccine.

    …. MYTH: Pfizer’s COVID-19 shot caused more deaths than the AstraZeneca vaccine.

    ….Several European news organizations, including French tech news site Numerama and German broadcaster Deutsche Welle, reported in May 2021 that a Russian-linked advertising agency attempted to run an anti-Pfizer disinformation campaign on social media, using similar arguments. French and German YouTubers and influencers said that an advertising agency called Fazze offered them money to post social media videos and messages warning against the Pfizer vaccine and claiming that “the death rate among the vaccinated with Pfizer is almost 3x higher than the vaccinated by AstraZeneca,” Numerama reported.

    According to a May 2021 Wall Street Journal report, French counterintelligence authorities were investigating whether the Russian government was behind the Fazze emails and the related disinformation campaign. A 2021 report by the Alliance for Securing Democracy, an advocacy group that studies state disinformation, found that Russian state media outlets have repeatedly drawn unsubstantiated links between the Pfizer vaccine and deaths of vaccine recipients. Although it is not clear why Pfizer received such negative treatment by the Russians, the Alliance for Securing Democracy report notes that the Pfizer vaccine was the first Western vaccine to compete with the Russian state-backed Sputnik V vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  102. One statement for joe’s hacks who will try and intimidate me to get shot up – Do you believe in life after death?

    mg (8cbc69)

  103. Like we don’t know what kind of aggressive panhandling losers Trumpmuffins are.
    1. They don’t want Covid to burn out (herd immunity), they want more stimulus checks.
    2. Many, emboldened by the Probability Warp that put orange sewer scum in the White House, think that they will beat the odds too.
    3. Bet you everyone on the anti-vax side in this thread has been vaccinated. Bet you!

    nk (9651fb)

  104. Other Dana, Here’s a pretty good bloomberg article with the breakdown I was talking about. Only thing I can see is that the vaccination rates among minorities isn’t going to swing the overall state population. Part of that conclusion requires looking at their total percentage of state population. There just aren’t enough black people in southern states for their vaccination behavior to swing the whole state.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  105. It’s the lack of expansive “squishy suburb” in a lot of these states, that’s where rates are well above 60% and there is still mask karenage. Missouri, which just got added to the IL travel advisory list, would enjoy a higher vacc rate if you added the KC, Ks and the Kansas side suburbs and what we call Metro east…east stouis, collinsville, Edwardsville etc.

    urbanleftbehind (65e8b1)

  106. Urban, that makes some sense. Those are the areas that carried Biden in MI and WI. Politico had a good discussion of that demographic on their podcast last week.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  107. you can tell how seriously biden is taking the virus by 1) dragging his feet on travel restrictions when the delta variant was already well known, and 2) bringing back the great success of catch-and-release at the border

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-asks-judge-halt-catch-and-release-border-policy

    The state of Texas is asking a federal court to order the Biden administration to follow the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s rules limiting the admission of people looking to enter the U.S. illegally or without proper documentation due to the coronavirus pandemic, and to stop releasing the vast majority of migrants without having them quarantined or tested for COVID-19.

    “This anarchistic catch-and-release policy plainly and facially violates the Administration’s own public health guidelines, regulations, and directives,” Miller said in a statement. “While Americans are still required to wear masks on planes and the CDC is still trying to shut down many aspects of daily life, the government is actively facilitating the entry of illegal aliens whose journey is defined by the radical absence of health protocols.”

    mexico has a vaccination rate of 16% which is likely on the high end for latin americs

    but border security and health protocols are vote suppression

    JF (e1156d)

  108. Education and vaccination: I have been wondering about this, and so were some USC researchers. Here’s their main finding:

    While the survey finds that racial and ethnic differences in vaccine hesitancy persist, level of education now has a stronger effect on people’s willingness to get the vaccine. The only exception may be people of Asian descent who—regardless of educational level—indicate a high level of willingness to get vaccinated.

    Overall, at the time of the survey, 76% of U.S. adults with at least a bachelor’s degree had been vaccinated or planned to get vaccinated, compared to just over half of adults (53%) with less education (Figure 1). In other words, a college degree is associated with a 43% increase in the likelihood that someone plans to get the vaccine. This difference by education level is now larger than the difference in willingness to vaccinate now observed between white and Black adults (32%) and the difference now observed between white and Latino adults (3%).

    This finding is distressing:

    Yet, U.S. adults vastly underestimate the effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccines and overestimate the chance for serious side effects from the vaccines. Overall, U.S. adults believe there is a 30% chance that someone who has been vaccinated will still get COVID-19 and a 26% chance of serious side effects from the vaccine.

    Would these numbers be lower if our news folks gave us more numbers and fewer pictures of injections and little bottles going round and round?

    I would like to think so, and note that sports pages are filled with numbers, so it isn’t impossible.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  109. Jim, that makes a ton of sense. I wonder if part of it is reader interest. Most people like stories and not data. But sports fans are already passionate about their team so they want the data. A casual news consumer isn’t passionate about Covid Vaccines so they need a story to pull them in. New Nerds are more of an exception.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  110. Bet you everyone on the anti-vax side in this thread has been vaccinated. Bet you!

    Hard to say, but every talking head on that side? For sure. And probably cut in line to get it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  111. Would these numbers be lower if our news folks gave us more numbers and fewer pictures of injections and little bottles going round and round?

    Good news doesn’t sell. Have you ever seen a “Good news” chyron?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. Having had the china flu, I trust my own antibodies. Comrade,nk.

    mg (8cbc69)

  113. Having had the china flu, I trust my own antibodies.

    Having not had it, I will borrow theirs.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  114. Researchers have tied Covid to multiple pathologies (e.g. death) that make Guillain-Barr seem a better bargain.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. As Jim pointed out it’s not that it’s perfectly safe and a perfect perfection. It’s that it’s almost perfectly safe and a very very good protection.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  116. Discrepancy between New York’s COVID-19 death count and federal numbers widens: AP analysis
    ……..
    The wire service found the federal government has an additional 11,000 deaths from the coronavirus that New York has not included in their count.

    The state provided the federal government with 54,000 death certificates that have the coronavirus as the cause or contributing factor in a person’s death, but the state is only counting 43,000 of those deaths.
    …….
    The gap between the numbers is due to the way New York has decided to count COVID-19 deaths. The state will only count laboratory-confirmed deaths from hospitals, nursing homes and adult-care facilities, according to AP.

    The unusual way of counting deaths leaves out a host of individuals, including those who most likely died from the virus but could not get it confirmed early on due to lack of testing.

    It also excludes people who died at home, hospice, state-run homes for people with disabilities and in state prisons, AP noted.

    The tracker is “fully transparent as to what data is on there. We never said it was the full death count,” a health department official told The Hill.

    The official said there were deaths outside the parameters the state has used since the beginning of the pandemic to track coronavirus deaths.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  117. it’s not that it’s perfectly safe and a perfect perfection. It’s that it’s almost perfectly safe and a very very good protection.

    Recently I read about a 45-year-old woman who didn’t get vaccinated because she was afraid of the side effects, and then she died of Covid. She’s certainly not the only such case.

    99% or more of new Covid hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated, who don’t just put their own lives and health at risk but provide opportunity for a more lethal variant to spread and threaten others, including children. In Mississippi, e.g., there are children in the ICU, some on ventilators, as the Delta variant rages.

    There’s also “long Covid,” i.e. chronic illness and disability among survivors.

    Then there are those who think “As long as it hasn’t hurt me (yet), it’s a lot of hysteria about nothing.” Or, “It was always about hurting Trump.”

    Radegunda (33a224)

  118. Newsmax vouches for vaccines after host Rob Schmitt says shots are ‘against nature’
    ……
    “Newsmax as a network strongly supports President Biden’s efforts to widely distribute the COVID vaccine. It is important for the safety of all and especially those at high risk, such as the elderly,” a spokesperson told The Washington Post on Tuesday.

    The network then put some distance between its corporate position and Schmitt’s remarks, without criticizing him by name.

    “Medical professionals who have appeared on Newsmax have strongly encouraged Americans to get the vaccine,” the spokesperson said. “From time to time, a guest or host may not be as supportive of these efforts. However, they do not reflect the position of Newsmax.” (A vaccine-skeptical Vietnam veteran in Idaho told The Post in April that he decided to get the shot after seeing a doctor appear on the network and confirm it was safe.)
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  119. 118, There was the unvaccinated nurse from Louisiana in her 20s – I saw that particular one on a Facebook friend’s shared Democratic Underground post and I thought that was bad form to basically tell someone who suffered nyah-nyah!

    urbanleftbehind (65e8b1)

  120. DeSantis sells ‘Don’t Fauci My Florida’ merch as new coronavirus cases near highest in nation

    New coronavirus infection numbers plummeted in Florida after vaccinations became widely available, but they have ticked up in recent weeks. The state is reporting daily cases close to four times the national average — 26 new infections per 100,000 residents, the second-highest number in the country. The state’s latest covid-19 death rate is almost double the national figure, and it ranks fourth for current hospitalizations.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/13/desantis-fauci-florida/

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  121. I wonder how much naming it “Operation Warp Speed” has impeded larger acceptance. Maybe they should have called it “Operation Super Safe Vaccine that Will Make You Super Long Love Machine”…..that and some coupons for AR-15 ammo….marketing 101

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  122. Well, my recent experience with TV news is limited. I haven’t watched cable news in decades, and watch the local news mainly for the weather reports and forecasts.

    But I have read some of Edward Tufte’s books, and like to think I have learned from them, especially The Visual Display of Quantitative Information. So I think it is possible to convey odds and consequences with visual displays, even on TV. (The higher resolutions of modern TVs makes this easier than it was in the past.) And I think good displays would attract more viewers, if done right, than the usual injections, talking heads, and little bottles going around and around.

    For instance, it should be possible to create graphics that show the comparative odds of bad consequences of the vaccine, and COVID. (Perhaps using tiny figures to represent people?)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  123. 108. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/14/2021 @ 7:40 am

    Yet, U.S. adults vastly underestimate the effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccines and overestimate the chance for serious side effects from the vaccines. Overall, U.S. adults believe there is a 30% chance that someone who has been vaccinated will still get COVID-19 and a 26% chance of serious side effects from the vaccine.

    People, in general, are not good at numbers when it comes to estimating probabilities. How many times do you hear of people saying 99%?

    But they’re not very wrong here.

    It’s true that someone who only got the J&J vaccine, and did not get infected before, has something over a 30% chance of getting Covid if they otherwise would but it is a much milder case than without the vaccine, and maybe even unnoticeable if not for testing and most people who are asymptomatic don’t get tested. Note that’s not 30% overall but all other things being equal.

    It’s a little less than 30% (of testing positive, when all other things are equal) if it a single dose of Pfizer or Moderna and the Delta variant (more like 25% for others) and below 10% after two shots. And you can often tell who might fall into that 5% to 10% category.

    It’s around 20% if someone was naturally exposed (again we are talking of any positive test) and back to below 10% after getting in addition one shot of Pfizer or Moderna. A second shot (after on;y
    three or four weeks) adds nothing to someone who has some acquired immunity beforehand.

    All this assumes there is no pre-existing immunity prior to the vaccination, and may include people who get exposed before the vaccine has enough time to work.

    The other question may not have been answered incorrectly either. How do you define “serious” side effects? Fever and other signs of illness for a day or two are probably over 26% for the second shot of Moderna or Pfizer. What’s “serious?” Noticeable? Requiring or possibly likely to benefit from medical treatment? Hospitalization?

    Would these numbers be lower if our news folks gave us more numbers and fewer pictures of injections and little bottles going round and round?

    They’d be more accurate, but 30% is not all that inaccurate for one shot of any vaccine, as long as you count all positive Covid tests alike, which you shouldn’t.

    The reason that someone taking one shot of the J&J dose is considered fully caccinated while somone taking one dose of Moderna or Pfizer is not,has nothing to do with the effectiveness of these vaccines, but with what protocol the companies making them sought approval.

    The FDA would have approved the vacine if it was as little as 50% effective (in preventing any positive test results)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  124. Radegunda (33a224) — 7/14/2021 @ 9:50 am

    Do the current vaccines protect against the variants? There are conflicting studies and data on that I think.

    With respect to long-covid; this is a problem for anyone who’s been exposed to SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines don’t undo whatever effects the virus may cause. It’s also not clear yet how much the vaccine protects a person from the long-term effects of SARS-CoV-2 generally. We just don’t have data and not needing hospital care or dying doesn’t mean there are no long-term effects.

    frosty (f27e97)

  125. By the way, this is Wikipedia donation time. I am going to give them a small donation, as I have before, and hope many of you do, too.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  126. 123. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/14/2021 @ 10:27 am

    the comparative odds of bad consequences of the vaccine, and COVID. (Perhaps using tiny figures to represent people?)

    Do you mean, if exposed to virions, or in general.

    It’s not even close. Maybe you’d need to include a magnifying glass in the graphic.

    Here’s a newspaper Q&A abou side effects of the vaccine.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/well/live/covid-vaccine-side-effects-faq.html

    Interestingly. getting a vaccine can sometimes cure the problems with long Covid.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  127. 125. frosty (f27e97) — 7/14/2021 @ 10:46 am

    With respect to long-covid; this is a problem for anyone who’s been exposed to SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines don’t undo whatever effects the virus may cause.

    Yes, they do, for some – and for some it got worse.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01511-z

    What about the impact of vaccines in people who already have long COVID? A UK survey of more than 800 people with long COVID, which has not been peer reviewed, reported in May that 57% saw an overall improvement in their symptoms, 24% no change and 19% a deterioration after their first dose of vaccine

    Citation: https://3ca26cd7-266e-4609-b25f-6f3d1497c4cf.filesusr.com/ugd/8bd4fe_a338597f76bf4279a851a7a4cb0e0a74.pdf

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  128. frosty (f27e97) — 7/14/2021 @ 10:46 am

    Do the current vaccines protect against the variants? There are conflicting studies and data on that I think.

    They all do, because you get exposed to the entire spike protein and there’s only a change in a few places. (when it affects something about how the disease spreads or works they take note of it as a variant) The vaccine may not work wwll if your body’s immune system happened to mostly target something that changed but it never targets just one place.

    This is not the case with the monoclonal antibodies since they are limited to just one or two spots on the virus. They can become ineffective.

    Now the drug regulators act like they know nothing about how the immune system works. I mean such questions as: Does the immunization fade? or Does an infection give you as much immunity as a vaccine? (almost always unless the infection was very minor and beaten back very quickly)

    The vaccines can be improved to better target the variants. This can be done very quickly, except for the drug approval process, although the comp[anies are hoping there can be a general approval for churning out variant vaccines. I don’t know if that’s likely.

    With respect to long-covid; this is a problem for anyone who’s been exposed to SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines don’t undo whatever effects the virus may cause. It’s also not clear yet how much the vaccine protects a person from the long-term effects of SARS-CoV-2 generally. We just don’t have data and not needing hospital care or dying doesn’t mean there are no long-term effects.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  129. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/14/2021 @ 10:58 am

    There are enough unknowns mentioned in that nature article that, while my initial thinking needs to be updated, I’m not sure I’d consider it blanket protection against long-term side effects.

    I’m curious about the mechanism now though and it would be good if the vaccine could reset the immune system when that’s needed.

    frosty (f27e97)

  130. It does tend to reset it for some people. And in some other cases exacerbates the problem. And half the time has no noticeable effect.

    I wouldn’t want to say nobody understands it, but I think, if there’s somebody who understands why, that someone or someones has a not yet generally accepted point of view.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  131. 115. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/14/2021 @ 8:45 am

    Researchers have tied Covid to multiple pathologies (e.g. death) that make Guillain-Barr seem a better bargain.

    And the odds are only about 1 in 150,000 of coming down with – Guillain-Barre syndrome – which is about 5 x the base rte. The odds are well over 90% you’ll make a full recovery in the United States (where you can get treatment)

    You can also get – Guillain-Barre syndrome from the shinglles vaccine and famouslt, in 1976 from the swine fle vaccine.

    Joseph Heller once had it.

    https://www.amazon.com/No-Laughing-Matter-Joseph-Heller/dp/0743247175

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Laughing_Matter_(book)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  132. Today, 232 years ago.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  133. The siege that kicked off the “Bad” Revolution or a mid 2010s less mopey pop version of Depeche Mode.

    urbanleftbehind (c3b374)

  134. I read modern is about to start a study to see if the serum is ok for pregnant women.
    fcs

    mg (8cbc69)

  135. https://www.newser.com/story/308617/not-all-the-news-on-the-delta-variant-is-grim.html

    `– COVID cases in the US and around the world are rising again, thanks largely to the fast-spreading delta variant. But in the New York Times, David Leonhardt offers up a counterpoint to the doom-and-gloom coverage. While delta is indeed more contagious than previous variants, preliminary data suggest it doesn’t cause more severe cases. Its threat might be summed up in a quote from Dr. Rebecca Wurtz of the University of Minnesota. “As far as anyone can tell, delta isn’t more dangerous in the sense that it causes worse disease,” she says. “It’s a sneaky opportunist, not a mayhem man.”

    A week behind the New York Post.

    https://nypost.com/2021/07/08/dont-buy-the-hysteria-the-delta-variant-is-actually-less-dangerous

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/briefing/delta-variant-spread-contagious.html

    As I said there could be caveats about that. Maybe Covid is being treated better now. I know somebody eho I think got sn antibody infusion and he ever tested positive – he just had glucose at 300.

    Or more people have some partial immunity. Or it spreads more easily but in smaller doses.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  136. I don’t see why anyone’s surprised. All of this is simply good sense.

    The day a doctor or scientist votes for a Democrat, promulgates Democrat talking points, or in any other way signals his support for a Democrat regime is they day they and all that they produce become immediately suspect. If they can’t cut politics out of their own personal practice then don’t expect us to do it for them. Democrats are essentially just they party of criminals and their lawyers and have nothing to offer the rest of the country but murderous, resentful rage that nobody respects their transparent excuses for their continual failures.

    Cosbotron Prime (73b272)

  137. Democrats are essentially just they party of criminals and their lawyers

    There’s an epidemic of organized shoplifting now in certain locations. Nothing happens to people under 16 so theybecome quite experienced criminals. There is starting to car break-ins.

    Governor Cuomo held abig anti crime event. None of them will admot they did anything wrong (they might have been lobbied) so they come up with some “palatible” to “progressives” anti crime measures (as a sort of compromise) that won’t do the job, like going against illegal guns.

    Maybe there are now new illegal guns in New York aince there is so much shooting but in 2019 the average gun recovered after being used in a crime was about 10 years old.

    Democrats are the party of throwing out what works in favor of stupidity that can sound good to some people. That includes AAfghanistan

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)


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