Patterico's Pontifications

9/27/2017

BREAKING: Tax Reform Proposal Unveiled Today; Details At RedState This Afternoon

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:30 am



It has been announced that the GOP’s tax reform plan will be unveiled this afternoon.

tax-reform-announcement

I have a very strong feeling — call it a premonition! — that if you are someone who wants the real scoop, RedState will be the place to be today.

You heard me. Always trust content from Patterico.

Stick with RedState until the afternoon, when there will be an inside look at today’s proposal.

UPDATE: Here’s a summary of the plan:

Tune in to RedState this afternoon for insights concerning the proposal that you can’t get anywhere else.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

187 Responses to “BREAKING: Tax Reform Proposal Unveiled Today; Details At RedState This Afternoon”

  1. sleazy p.o.s. war hero John McCain’s last remaining goal in life is to tank this too you know

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  2. Hooray! The current tax code is obviously an embarrassing monstrosity. The sooner it’s replaced with a fair and streamlined system the sooner a crippling and unnecessary burden will have been lifted from the backs of Americans. Relief can’t come too soon.

    ropelight (c5dd75)

  3. The Fascist-Progressives – Dem & GOP – have the GOP leadership cowed now.

    Tax reform will go about as far as Obamacare Repeal….if that far.

    MJN1957 (6f981a)

  4. I think the needle spins off the record when people start asking “what about the property tax deduction”? if that’s gone, even (especially) Texans will be like “what the hell?”.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  5. This will be another carnival side show, two headed McConnells and all.

    mg (31009b)

  6. Even if I pay the same, if we could only liberate the IRS and Tax Prep Services and Lawyers of their livelihood — that would be a major win.

    We need more people cutting grass and making things. Enuff parasites living off Government intrusion.

    Govt is to collect taxes as efficiently as possible, not make it social engineering.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  7. Bleeding out ACA was their foundation…

    “I’ll huff and I’ll puff until I blow your Houses down!”

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  8. They wrote in secret and now want an expedited up or down vote. With a 2 vote margin in the Senate nothing good for everyday Americans can pass. Parts will sound good. Overall it will be more nickels, dimes, power and control to DC.

    Mehhh…

    crazy (d99a88)

  9. If you have to do things that way, the bill probably has serious political difficulties or flaws. Mitch McConnell seems much more interested in tax law than in Obamacare.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  10. @ropelight:The sooner it’s replaced with a fair and streamlined system the sooner a crippling and unnecessary burden will have been lifted from the backs of Americans.

    I have a suspicion that nothing like this will be on offer.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  11. This group of republicans will never get reconciliation tax cuts on the table. And that should be a no brainer, those usually get renewed when their original time expires. More the same.
    Have a new read, Patterico?

    mg (31009b)

  12. 4. urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 9/27/2017 @ 7:58 am

    I think the needle spins off the record when people start asking “what about the property tax deduction”? if that’s gone, even (especially) Texans will be like “what the hell?”.

    Do you mean the mortgage intereet deduction, (now limited to debt undertaken at the time a house was acquired, or up to $100,000 of a home equity loan, unless the loan was made before October 13, 1987, or the real estate tax deduction (liited only to taxes you are legally oblligated to pay, not taxes you may pay for a another family member), or the exclusion of the first $250,000 in capital gains from the sale of ahouse, provided it served as a taxpayer’s “main home” (could be only one member of a married couple) for at least two years, which do not have to be consecutive, or most recent, but all of which have to fall within the last five years before the date of the sale, and I think there are some special circumstances, considered forced sales, where the 2-year period is waived.

    In additional all capital gains are free of tax if another home is bought very quickly and the whole thing arranged ina special way, to the extent that the new home uses up all the proceeds from selling the first home. Do you get that? How do you simplify things like that?

    I think the real problematic issue will be deductibility of state and local income taxes. Some Republicans want to rplace that with a tax credit, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  13. Not the mortgage intereset deduction but the item #6 of Schedule A, Real Estate Taxes. In Texas, these tend to be the largest of the total tax burden due to lack of state income tax (not unheard of to pay 7,000 on a house in the 180-200,000 range). That fact also complicates the school choice debate there, because of the large amount of perceived investment in the respective ISD.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  14. May take a while to figure out whose ox is being gored, but it looks like it won’t be Trump’s.

    With no AMT, the Dotard-in-Chief will probably never owe another dime of taxes…

    Dave (445e97)

  15. 13. urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 9/27/2017 @ 8:26 am

    Not the mortgage intereset deduction but the item #6 of Schedule A, Real Estate Taxes. In Texas, these tend to be the largest of the total tax burden due to lack of state income tax (not unheard of to pay 7,000 on a house in the 180-200,000 range).

    In New York you basically need the state and local income tax deduction to make it worth while itemizing deductions. Mortgage interest is deductible for up to 2 hours, real estate taxes for any number of properties. Real estate taxes must be higher in Texas. But in New York sometime you still need the real estate tax to make it worthwhile to itemize.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  16. Well, good. Let’s see if they can manage tax reform. Of course Luther Strange lost, and now the Repubs will never be able to get the job done!!

    /sarc off

    Patricia (5fc097)

  17. Tax reform, tax cuts, tax anything is BS. Spending reform, spending cuts is what is needed. Go ahead. Cut the taxes. Or move around who (you think) is paying the taxes. The reality is, as long as spending increases or remains constant, the SOBs will just borrow/print the money that they don’t take in. The problem is in the SPENDING. SEA Party, not TEA Party.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  18. The “reform” plan does not discuss capital gains taxes at all. Nor does it discuss the $500K exclusion on a residence sale. Sammy suggests that one can do a Section 1031 exchange on a residence sale but the two provisions are pretty much exclusive (one is a current residence, the other is a current income property).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  19. ulb,

    Even in California property taxes can be the highest state tax, even though there is a significant income tax, because the state likes to tax.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  20. @1. Out of the sun, short burst and down in flames.

    Ever the aviator.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. No, you can’t have any of your money back, next question

    narciso (d1f714)

  22. Sammy, at 12: there’s talk of repealing the state and local tax deduction. It’s not clear if there would be an exception for property taxes or not.

    California and NY are not happy with this, and if property taxes aren’t exempted, neither will Texas be.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  23. Sammy, at 15: property tax is the primary source of tax revenue in Texas.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  24. “-The lowest federal income tax bracket for individuals will sit at 12 percent, an increase from 10 percent, but will be offset by an expansion of the child tax credit. There will be three brackets total, down from seven, with the other two at 25 and 35 percent.

    -The small business tax rate will drop to 25 percent, the lowest in America since the 1930s.

    -The corporate tax rate will be decreased from 35 percent to 20 percent, prompting American money to come home from overseas.”

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2017/09/27/here-are-the-details-of-president-trumps-tax-plan-n2387004

    harkin (36810b)

  25. NBC News has advanced copy.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/gop-plan-cuts-corporate-individual-taxes-repeals-estate-tax-n805126

    “Here is what is in the plan:

    Individual Taxes

    Repeals the estate tax.
    Nearly doubles the standard deduction to $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for those filing jointly.
    Reduces the number of tax brackets from seven to three with the highest being 35 percent and the lowest being 12 percent.
    Increases the child tax credit to an unspecified amount over the current $1,000.
    Adds a $500 credit for the care of non-children dependents.
    Eliminates most deductions, including the state and local tax deduction.
    Preserves the mortgage interest deduction and the charitable deduction, two of the most popular deductions that more often benefit wealthier Americans.
    Repeals the Alternative Minimum Tax.

    Corporate Taxes

    Reduces the corporate tax rate to 20 percent.
    Caps the small business rate to 25 percent.
    Transitions the global corporate tax to a territorial tax.
    Aims to repeal the corporate AMT.”

    Let the games begin.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. According to this “G-S primer via ZeroHedge, the mortgage deduction will be retained while the state/local tax deductions are eliminated. Doubling the standard deduction will substantially mitigate the impact of eliminating the state/local taxes deduction.

    I’m very curious as to the Border Adjustment Tax.

    Rick Ballard (c15cdb)

  27. You know this is doomed when a bunch of millionaires hold a presser to try to persuade the electorate they’ll be filing returns on a postcard. The ancient stink of Steve Forbes is all over that sucker bait.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. This would balloon the deficit, but deficits don’t matter under a Republican administration.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  29. if the poop-lick paul sleazy mitch congress-trash screw the pooch on this where could they go from there?

    and it looks like pervert Mitt Romney wants to replace Orrin Hatch, which will only move the senate even further toward the democrats

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. This is more sand kicked in the face of calloused handed Americans in work boots.
    Time for a little tar and a lot of feathers.

    mg (31009b)

  31. Breaking news: Twitter has doubled it’s character count to 280.

    Have at it, Mr. President.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. I agree with mg. This looks to be all on the backs of lower middle class Americans. The ones who work and make a decent living. The ones who own their own homes but not apartment buildings or other commercial real estate. (Bet you they leave real estate taxes as a business deduction.) The ones who don’t make enough for alternative minimum tax, or clip coupons.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. And I don’t mean store coupons.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. This would balloon the deficit, but deficits don’t matter under a Republican administration.

    Let not your heart be troubled. Donald Trump promised he would eliminate the national debt in eight years, without raising taxes or reducing entitlements.

    Dave (445e97)

  35. Yes this is hard for the second from bottom quartile – and lets Bannon look like the smart guy for his push for a higher income tax on the top bracket.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  36. we should wait to taste the tasty cake after it’s baked!

    does anyone here truly doubt that sleazy coward-ass war hero John McCain has many ideas what will improve this tax plan immeasurably

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  37. I propose the abolishment of all forms of personal income tax (federal and state) to be replaced by a national sales tax of 10% (9% federal and 1% state) collected by sellers at the point of sale. Corporate taxes to be eliminated entirely.

    That’s it, no other taxes on individual citizens or corporations for any reason.

    If any level of goverament can’t live within the above constraints it will have only 30 days to cut spending to meet incoming revenues or be deemed to have resigned in-mass.

    ropelight (c5dd75)

  38. Bannon is a smart guy.

    mg (31009b)

  39. California and NY are not happy with this, and if property taxes aren’t exempted, neither will Texas be.

    Nor Illinois and New Jersey which have a higher property tax than Texas AND income and sales taxes.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  40. They say 3 brackets, but there are 4. The 0% bracket is a thing, and the doubling of the personal deduction makes it a real thing for many. That the bottom non-zero bracket goes up to 12% is meaningless since those in the current 10% bracket will be in the expanded 0% bracket.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  41. The ones who don’t make enough for alternative minimum tax

    You would be surprised how far down the AMT reaches in years they don’t pass a fix.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  42. Looks like much of Congress and much of the left shouldn’t have to worry… as long as they have feeling in their hands:

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319536.php

    Colonel Haiku (6c3294)

  43. They can shuffle the deck of taxpayers and benefits but it’s still $4T+ in spending funded by $3T in taxes and hope. Hall and Rabushka still have the simplest and fairest favor-free plan, but that’s why it never gets a fair hearing.

    crazy (d99a88)

  44. “This would balloon the deficit, but deficits don’t matter under a Republican administration.”

    Davethulhu (fab944) — 9/27/2017 @ 11:35 am

    Never a thought given to spending reductions and a smaller government footprint/reach.

    Colonel Haiku (6c3294)

  45. I propose the abolishment of all forms of personal income tax (federal and state) to be replaced by a national sales tax of 10% (9% federal and 1% state) collected by sellers at the point of sale. Corporate taxes to be eliminated entirely.

    That wouldn’t be enough to fund the government. As it stands, the federal government collects an average of 18% of the GDP in taxes (and that’s all taxes, personal and corporate). Spending has been above 20% for years, and looks to continue to be so. Even if we somehow controlled spending down to 18% of the GDP, if the federal government is getting 9% of the GDP in sales tax, revenues will continue to fall short.

    Okay, so let’s raise the national sales tax to 18%. That would be more or less revenue-neutral. But an 18% surcharge on everything you buy won’t sit well with anyone. (Even less so if you live in a state that tacks on an additional 8-10% sales tax.) That $100 you spend on groceries becomes $118. The $30K you spend on your car is now $35,400. And that $200K you spent on your house becomes $236K. Do we then limit what transactions are subject to the national sales tax? If we do, then we’ll have to raise the rate further, because we’re taxing a smaller subset of the GDP. So the rate would then go to 25% of qualified purchases. That opens the door to black market purchases: the higher the tax rate, the more incentive there is to cheat.

    I’m open to the idea of a national sales tax, but the devil’s in the details. And we may find that when we look deeper into it, it’s not nearly as good an idea as we thought.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  46. That $100 you spend on groceries becomes $118.

    welcome to chicago

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  47. @Chuck Bartowski:That $100 you spend on groceries becomes $118.

    I live in a state that raises most of its revenue from sales tax, and grocery items are exempt. The other items you mentioned, cars and homes, they all have their own sales tax rates. What you describe is not how sales tax is generally implemented.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  48. @Davethulhu:This would balloon the deficit,

    The deficit of course has two sides. You can cut spending, too. It has happened. In some foreign country I think.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  49. A national sales tax will be opposed by anyone retired or nearly retired. Why? They’ve spent a lifetime accumulating after-tax savings to spend in their retirement and NOW you want to tax them again at a rate comparable to the income tax.

    No. And they all vote.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  50. The deficit of course has two sides.

    Three sides. The economy can grow, increasing revenue and decreasing safety-net spending.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  51. Consumption taxes are within the individual consumer’s control. What states find that rely on them is that they are self-limiting.

    For example, rising gasoline taxes prompted people to buy more efficient cars, and so revenue dropped and state are hoping to make it up with a per-mile tax.

    In the end, it’s about spending. A government that spends less can tax less, but an electorate that demands high spending will, sooner or later, get high taxes, regardless of the form those taxes take.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  52. I’m open to the idea of a national sales tax, but the devil’s in the details. And we may find that when we look deeper into it, it’s not nearly as good an idea as we thought.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 9/27/2017 @ 12:49 pm

    One reason why I like the sales tax is that it’s so honest about how expensive our government is.

    Yeah, it would need to be at least 25% once you added in some progressive measures. I would say necessities shouldn’t be taxed. The tax rate is simply a function of the size of government.

    > That opens the door to black market purchases: the higher the tax rate, the more incentive there is to cheat.

    I think as we’ve moved into online commerce that sales tax becomes easier and easier to get general compliance on. And a lot of the black market avoids income tax today.

    I just like the idea of rewarding earning and creation and savings, and if we’re going to tax something, tax consumption. I think we would eventually overcome the idea that everyone needs to spend all their money all the time to stimulate the economy.

    End of the day, the problem is that our government is freaking enormous and very expensive. People don’t understand this because of our tax system.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  53. Until they cut spending, make themselves obey the same rules as anyone else operating within a budget and throw some extra on to shrinking the debt, this is just more of the same kicking the can down the road with your foot out the door of the Porsche you can’t afford to own or operate.

    And to top it off your legacy to your heirs is a huge constantly-growing bill with interest added on.

    All that’s missing is the Dems getting them to add spending increases to help pass it.

    harkin (75a6dd)

  54. If you like VAT you can keep your cash, I promise. There will be no federal laws drafted to make cash transactions illegal. Did you believe you could keep your doctor? Natch!

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  55. @45 It seems to me that cutting taxes is premature if the budget isn’t balanced.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  56. Much of Europe operates underground to defeat VAT. Globalists will have their day with that cash cow and it’s milk.
    http://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/the-value-added-tax-wrong-the-united-states

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  57. Until they cut spending, make themselves obey the same rules as anyone else operating within a budget and throw some extra on to shrinking the debt, this is just more of the same kicking the can down the road with your foot out the door of the Porsche you can’t afford to own or operate.

    And to top it off your legacy to your heirs is a huge constantly-growing bill with interest added on.

    “Operating on a budget” ignores the realities.

    Only about $600B out of the $3.9T the government spent in 2016 (3.3% of GDP) was non-defense discretionary spending. You would essentially have to zero out ALL of that for spending to fall within the $3.3T revenue.

    Or you have to gut the military, or you have significantly reform entitlements (which Donald Trump said he would never consider).

    Trump’s promise was to somehow eliminate the $19T national debt in eight years by reducing the trade deficit, which clearly shows his ignorance and complete detachment from reality.

    There is almost no discretionary spending to cut. The only way out of the present situation is economic growth.

    Dave (445e97)

  58. @45 It seems to me that cutting taxes is premature if the budget isn’t balanced.

    Davethulhu

    Don’t disagree, and it seems that we’ve found some very clever ways of avoiding reality on the budget. The way social security was used to fund government is among them. People didn’t have to pay sufficient taxes for the size of government, but still expect social security benefits they earnestly believe they paid for (but didn’t).

    Sales tax tied directly to the previous year’s budget, with some truly independent auditor setting the rate, might mean society finally weighs whether they want that $700,000 study on microaggressions in fire ant societies.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  59. @Davethulhu:It seems to me that cutting taxes is premature if the budget isn’t balanced.

    Jam to-morrow and jam yesterday – but never jam to-day.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  60. @Dave:There is almost no discretionary spending to cut.

    Discretionary spending is what Congress says it is, because Congress makes the laws that establish what spending is “discretionary”.

    It is simply not true that there is nothing to cut. There is plenty to cut. Whether we have a political class willing to acknowledge that or do anything about it is a different matter of course.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  61. What’s Fredericks pet entitlement?

    Any guesses?

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  62. Whether we have a political class willing to acknowledge that or do anything about it is a different matter of course.

    We have a president elected on a promise not to touch Social Security or Medicare spending.

    Granted, Donald Trump’s word is worth nothing, but meaningful entitlement reform would require:

    1) Strong, smart leadership from the White House to deflect the inevitable “pushing Granny’s wheelchair off the cliff” attacks from Democrats, and
    2) 50+ conservatives in the senate

    We unfortunately have neither, and that reflects the lack of a national consensus for entitlement reform.

    Dave (445e97)

  63. National economics from Peking to Birmingham will dominate this new generation of politics.

    mg (31009b)

  64. Those of you who like the idea of a national sales tax:

    Consider how you would feel if you were 65+ and living off your after-tax savings. Right now, such folks are essentially done paying taxes — having paid through the nose for years. If it were you, how would you feel about paying them again, essentially paying double on your earnings?

    IF you are thinking “serves those %^$&*% boomer right!”, well suppose it was 20 years from now and it was you that was on the block?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  65. I like a national sales tax and the elimination of the system of income tax withholding because it makes paying taxes immediately and directly painful.

    Multiple times per day an individual would reach into his own pocketbook and put money on the table for taxes. Which should cause him to consider well the utility of government spending.

    Additionally, all residents of the USA would pay sales taxes. No longer would favored groups at the top and bottom of the economic scale be largely exempt from taxation.

    It’s the best way I know to collect taxes efficiently, and to make sure every resident in our nation pays his fair share without being exploited by greedy elected spendthrift in Washington DC.

    ropelight (c5dd75)

  66. The way to balance the budget is this:

    Amendment XXVIII:

    “Except in years when 3/4ths of each House of Congress directs otherwise, the total spending of the federal government many not exceed 20% of the Average Gross Domestic Product of the prior 4 years.”

    This has a small negative feedback loop, allowing boom-time spending to continue after a recession has set in, and requiring some spending cuts after the recovery begins.

    It also has a tight limitation on war-time spending. 1/4 of either House can stop a war.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  67. And, ropelight, would you still be in favor if you were retired today? If so, explain why sacrificing 20% of your after-tax savings seems like a good plan. (And we’re assuming that it will only be 20%)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  68. *may not exceed

    Kevin M (752a26)

  69. Kevin M, I’m in the situation you describe: over 65 and living on the fruits of previously taxed earnings. And I’m obviously a big advocate of a national sales tax. Some old geezers care more about the future of America than you give us credit for.

    ropelight (c5dd75)

  70. Consider how you would feel if you were 65+ and living off your after-tax savings. Right now, such folks are essentially done paying taxes — having paid through the nose for years. If it were you, how would you feel about paying them again, essentially paying double on your earnings?

    Consider how you would feel if you were 20 and being forced to plow 10% of your income into a Ponzi scheme that cannot possibly survive long enough for you to collect your “share”…

    Things are tough all over.

    Dave (445e97)

  71. Does a 20% national sales tax imply a 20% duty on personal imports?

    Would there be a tax on home purchases? Rent? Medical care? Business expenses? Is paying a contractor a purchase?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  72. Consider how you would feel if you were 20 and being forced to plow 10% of your income into a Ponzi scheme that cannot possibly survive long enough for you to collect your “share”…

    Did that, and actually more (self-employed people pay over 15%) for 40 years. I didn’t like it either, but I now understand why the people 30 years older than me got out the tiny violins.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  73. And the greatest danger to Social Security has been Obama’s looting of the trust fund. He made it easy for anyone with a facially valid “disability” (e.g. agoraphobia) to start getting their social security and medicare at a VERY early age. If you were over 50, they barely even checked.

    This took a lot of the previously employed out of the job market and juked the stats.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  74. @Kevin M: Any change to taxation that anyone proposes is going to have people who win by it, and people who lose, and there’s no way to share it out equitably because no one is going to agree on what “equitable” is.

    The only way out to reform taxation is to reduce spending, because then a government that spends less will tax less and everyone can win, in principle (though they won’t all win in practice).

    And any change to spending that anyone proposes is going to have people who win by it, and people who lose, and there’s no way to share it out equitably because no one is going to agree on what “equitable” is.

    Unless you want to try to settle it by plebiscite or something. You have “skin in the game”problems with that.

    So, I’m not sure what we should take away from your objection, no one can change anything?

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  75. I HAVE PAID MY MOTHER F*#*ING DUES LONG ENOUGH.

    mg (31009b)

  76. Social Security has been Obama’s looting of the trust fund

    Oh, not the “trust fund” again. Yes, the government did have a special filing cabinet for storing its SS IOUs, but those IOUs can only be funding by raising taxes or lowering benefits, just as if they did not exist.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  77. Frederick

    Yes, “government trust fund” is a three-way oxymoron, but there remains a net positive balance between social security taxes received and social security benefits paid. The money has been “invested” in government bonds, which is to say it’s been spent, but the markers remain to indicate the positive balance I mentioned.

    There are some who suggest it would have been better to invest in AAA bonds, but it would have just ended as s different type of chicanery (e.g. GM bonds).

    The point I ws making is that those markers have been called faster than expected because SS outlays are MUCH higher than they are supposed to be. I know someone in their 30’s collecting Social Security for something neither one of us would consider disabling, but the SS administration did.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  78. And sure, there is no reason to expect that tax changes will not have uneven effects. But if you are trying to get something passed that screws 50 million people of both parties who all vote, I wish you the best of luck.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  79. i love the lower tax rates

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  80. @Kevin M:But if you are trying to get something passed that screws 50 million people of both parties who all vote

    No matter what we are trying to pass, that is what will happen, and it will certainly happen if don’t pass anything.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  81. You can pass less drastic changes. This is why experienced people opt for incremental change. Because you almost never get big changes, and the few times you do (e.g. Obamacare), you pay for it for years because people STAY pissed off.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  82. I also think it’s so darling the way people think they will get rid of the income tax when the national sales tax comes in.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  83. Yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda-ya…Same ol’ same old. They throw these tax cuts to the rubes on the right and they fall for it every time. Tax cuts and such suck up all the oxygen in the room and distract from the real problem. SPENDING. If you don’t cut the spending, they will get their pound of flesh one way or the other. Tax cuts and such only move the problem around until markets adjust and a stasis is re-achieved. Just rearranging the deck chairs. Amazes me how SQUIRREL! conservative types can be.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  84. As I said:

    Amendment XXVIII: “Except in years when 3/4ths of each House of Congress directs otherwise, the total spending of the federal government many not exceed 20% of the Average Gross Domestic Product of the prior 4 years.”

    Limit spending to a hard number first.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  85. I like a national sales tax and the elimination of the system of income tax withholding because it makes paying taxes immediately and directly painful.

    Multiple times per day an individual would reach into his own pocketbook and put money on the table for taxes. Which should cause him to consider well the utility of government spending.

    Additionally, all residents of the USA would pay sales taxes. No longer would favored groups at the top and bottom of the economic scale be largely exempt from taxation.

    It’s the best way I know to collect taxes efficiently, and to make sure every resident in our nation pays his fair share without being exploited by greedy elected spendthrift in Washington DC.

    ropelight (c5dd75) — 9/27/2017 @ 2:00 pm

    Yes. This is my thinking exactly.

    I also think it’s so darling the way people think they will get rid of the income tax when the national sales tax comes in.

    Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 2:35 pm

    Well we live in cynical times so I’ll give you a chuckle, but yeah, that’s the idea. “well what if we don’t do that idea because we suck” is very realistic, but it’s not the idea.

    Gutting the IRS to interact with businesses and points of sales, eliminating tax returns, income withholding estimates, that whole mess, being done will these tax sheltered millionarres, seeing everyone living off grid, illegal alien, drug dealer, etc, having to pay the same tax rate I do? I admit it’s too good an idea to really expect to happen. But I like it.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  86. Everybody wants to talk about everything except how this benefits only Trump’s cronies and the losers who cheer him at his rallies. Not that I blame anyone. It’s called avoidance and sometimes that’s the only defense mechanism left.

    nk (dbc370)

  87. @65. A NST disproportionately hurts middle and lower income earners as well as retirees on fixed incomes. It’s a non-starter. When a bunch of millionaire Congressional critters hold a presser, smile f/t cameras and cheerfully pitch the promise of filing returns on a postcard, be wary– then laugh at them. These are the same inept clowns who had nearly 8 years to craft a viable ‘repeal and replace’ healthcare plan and when the time came, had nothing and failed. The next thing you’ll start hearing is the go-to emergency word: ‘Reagan.’ It’s a party that repeatedly demonstrates it cannot govern and will not until one side or the other triumphs in their civil war. Last night’s vote in Alabama should hint at which side is winning. It’s very 1964– and history is rhyming.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. And, ropelight, would you still be in favor if you were retired today? If so, explain why sacrificing 20% of your after-tax savings seems like a good plan. (And we’re assuming that it will only be 20%)

    Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 2:02 pm

    I think this is a very good criticism of the plan. Let’s remember that boomers didn’t pay their full share. They let social security get soaked, laughing as the debt soared. It’s not a bad idea to keep them on the hook a little bit.

    but that’s not going to work politically. I think adjusting the tax rate to 25% and not taxing the basic necessities of life would be a great political move.

    What’s basic necessities? Well we’ll have to hash that out. Prescription drugs, staple foods that can’t be easily consumed on the premises (how Texas does it, you pay sales tax on a candy bar, but not a loaf of bread), inexpensive clothes (clothes costing less than $50 per article). I would not want this to devolve into political gifts like no sales tax on electric cars.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  89. @89. Pfft. Revisit the 1970’s: you’ll find many of the IOUs in the SS lockbox have Bob Dole’s signature on them.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. Get rid of baseline economics, and stop spending. And we all will be farting in silk.

    mg (31009b)

  91. Get rid of the federal budget, and with it, scoring. Match all spending with a revenue source, including borrowing, with a e=certain amount of leeway. The only test should be reality.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  92. New York state taxes no food (except, in more recent years, snacks) Also restaurant meals are taxed. No medicines are taxed. Also, now no clothing costing less than $110.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  93. These uni-party a-holes are the same herd that gave us TPP. Good Lord Almighty can we get some adults in the room.

    mg (31009b)

  94. What’s basic necessities? Well we’ll have to hash that out.

    What it is for a military family and/or a soldier in the field?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  95. Who looted the SS trust fund?

    Oh yeah. Congress took out a ‘promissory’ note and everyone knows that’s not a loan requiring repayment. Saint Ronaldus…save us.

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  96. We-ay-lll,…

    urbanleftbehind (3c8eef)

  97. At the retreat, Ryan’s framework was met with a standing ovation and Vice President Mike Pence’s praise: “This guy does not get enough credit,” Pence told the Republican members.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/27/16374582/paul-ryan-tax-reform

    How many times can you fire an empty magazine?

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  98. Enough, let’s just do the multi-party parliamentary thing now.

    urbanleftbehind (3c8eef)

  99. Scottish Referendum tanked, then the Frankenstein Brexit emerged as though magically delicious haggis. And those across the Pond are smart.

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  100. We Yanks…not so much.

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  101. @96. Bob Dole. They raided that piggy bank repeatedly in the 70’s and that SOB’s name is on most of the IOUs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. Well that poses its own problems consider fraud merkels vurst week evarr.

    Our unfunded liability are like the mother ship in the second independence day film

    narciso (d1f714)

  103. Just listened to the govna of Cow Hampshire praise the Republicans for this great opportunity to help the American people.
    Old man Sununu and his son are not what we thought they’d be.

    mg (31009b)

  104. @98. Ayn Rand devotee Ryan’s a grinning Goober Pyle of fertilizer; the most hapless Speaker in a generation or more. At least Gomer Pyle could sing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. 20% VAT. No income, corporate, capital gains, or death taxes. Period. Sellers deduct the collected VAT, which ensures compliance. VAT is progressive by nature. You’d see the economy catch fire. But, it’ll never happen.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  106. DC:

    John Galt was never so boring and tepid.

    Can we get some consensus on Trumps sucksessor?

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  107. 106

    BOY! Are you wrong…

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  108. You misunderstands Ryan and the other cliqyesters,

    They are fine with 70% of the regulatory and tax regime.currently in force.

    narciso (d1f714)

  109. DC

    You and I are just here to provide context. Isn’t it grand?

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  110. Democrats – once again – show that they are enemies of America: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/371754.php

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  111. ‘Massive’ is a great word. They used it for Benghazi too. Iraq fades into distant….mem..or…ies..

    Ben burn (40f73a)

  112. And the wheels have totes fallen off the Democrat/Democrat-Operatives-with-bylines/#NeverTrump wagon on their entire Russian Collusion dog scat>>>> http://ace.mu.nu/archives/371755.php

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  113. 💩 oh well…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  114. That squirrel gets smaller and smaller, cirinello.

    narciso (d1f714)

  115. Col.
    Wish Black Lives Matter would have to rebuild all the stores they vandalized. And pay for the looting of booze and tennis shoes.

    mg (31009b)

  116. There is so much that gets limited to no coverage. They depend on people not caring enough or getting distracted by this LCD culture. The left champions and promotes destructive behaviors and anti-American activities.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  117. It doesmt say much for one of largest corporations on the planet, then again. The adds were fro. The internet troll association, what did they think would happen.

    narciso (d1f714)

  118. Massive’ is a great word. They used it for Benghazi”

    Mem or ies……what people remember most is Chairman Zero sending out his shills to blame it on a video when they knew otherwise.

    harkin (75a6dd)

  119. “Beclowning” is a great word and it is nearly always highly entertaining to witness people who unwittingly do it to themselves.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  120. @120. =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    You’d know.

    “Free comedy tip, slick: the pie gag’s only funny when the sap’s got dignity…” – Krusty the Krusty the Klown ‘ The Simpsons’ Fox TV, 1997

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. I think after – 10 months of the grishenkp snipe hunt, its no longer even amusing, coronello,

    narciso (d1f714)

  122. Furthermore, if the Russians really wanted to immobilize the us gift would they do anything. Different that what fusion and crowdstrike set forth.

    narciso (d1f714)

  123. They let social security get soaked, laughing as the debt soared

    Dustin you ignorant slut. We did no such thing. We fought and fought. We pushed and got the 5% cap on interest removed — by Carter. We elected Ronald Reagan. We pushed and got IRAs. We pushed and got 401(k)s. We pushed and got stock trading away from the broker priesthood.

    You lot came after and did nothing but whine that all the sh1t we got for you wasn’t enough.

    Bite me. There are 50 million Americans over 65, and we all vote. Good luck screwing us.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  124. F#*k in A right on Kevin M

    mg (31009b)

  125. It seems a reasonable is our stunned stoat of a congress going to do anything?

    narciso (d1f714)

  126. As far as “letting Social Security get soaked”, we were the soakees, not the soaked. Bob Dole doubled Social Security taxes on us and postponed the day we could collect. If you were self-employed, he tripled the tax, back in ’86 when Boomers had no alternatives except $2000/year into an IRA.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  127. *we were the soakees, not the soakers

    Kevin M (752a26)

  128. we’re overdue for a flu epidemic you know

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  129. There are 50 million Americans over 65, and we all vote. Good luck screwing us.
    Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 6:43 pm

    AARP is on it, Kevin.

    felipe (023cc9)

  130. 20% VAT. No income, corporate, capital gains…

    As long as I can deduct all the income taxes paid already on the savings I’m spending, I’m OK with you guys paying a VAT as you spend your paychecks.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  131. But it never works put that way, like the plant in little shop. It seeks out more

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. Here’s the screwed up thing about Social Security: the only people who ever got a good deal out of this are dead. Even the “Greatest Generation” who got a middling deal are most all dead.

    After them, though it’s nothing but generation-to-generation pain, where you steal from people for 40 years and promise them a return later. They HATE it while you are doing the stealing, but when it comes time to get *some* of that money back (never all now), they’ll be damned if they’ll get off the ride now.

    And so the ride continues. Now, it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because 1) new people always enter the system, and 2) old people always leave the system. Neither of those is true of a Ponzi scheme (which is why they must fail).

    Still, it has difficulties, like when the HUGE Boomer generation retires and the main payers are the tiny Gen X cohort, plus the Millennials. The only saving grace is that the Millennials are as big a group as the Boomers, and they will have no problem paying for the Gen X retirement.

    Assuming it doesn’t break in the next 20 years, which is why I get so frosted about Obama’s use of Social Security Disability to gin up lower unemployment numbers.

    We may come to the point where it’s either screw the Boomers or screw Gen X temporarily. I don’t think so — if we can get the Millennials employed — but there are more Boomers, and by the time there aren’t Gen X will have switched sides, as we all do.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  133. we’re overdue for a flu epidemic you know

    We’re WAY over due for the Black Death, too. I notice antibiotics are working less and less. Good thing no one has ever been so crazy as to develop antibiotic-resistant Y pestis.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  134. Back to the original subject of the tax reform bill.

    Why do you think they’ve not mentioned capital gains taxes or rates? Did they forget?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  135. at least you don’t have to get on hepatitis chicago mass transit

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  136. “One thing about Democrats is they tell you what horrible things they’ll do in power, generally. Whereas republicans run on repealing Obamacare, small government and lower taxes. And they apparently don’t mean any of it.” http://www.saysuncle.com/2017/09/27/typical-2/

    nk (dbc370)

  137. I’ve been paying yuge! taxes for years including both my wife and myself maxing out our Social Security contributions, and we were both self employed so you know. I’ve retired and my wife sold her salons just this year. She may or may not build something new but as of now we’re both retired. This year we’ll probably owe about 80k in fed tax for the pay my wife took and my yuge SS check of $2100 a month. So naturally it figure since we are no longer earning a taxable income the tax will now flip to a VAT or consumption tax to retax all our savings and make us now pay on what we spend in our retirement. Just like after I marched for civil rights in 1965 when I applied for college in 1973 I was turned down for three out of four schools because they were “enrolling black minorities and had quotas”. Or just like when I returned from volunteering for Nam and being wounded twice all the cowards who ran to Canada got pardons and I got spat on.

    I reiterate, crazy. I regret ever having served for this ungrateful and disgusting nation.

    I spent my entire life doing what a good citizen is supposed to do. Not because I had to but because I wanted to. I wanted to be “that guy” people pointed to when they spoke about patriotism, citizenship , duty and honor. I wanted my father to be proud of me like his father was of him. So I stood for equal rights, put on a uniform and fought for the ideals of “our Great Experiment”. When I came home I went to school, got married, started a business. Then I took in a black foster kid tossed away like so much trash by his own family and I raised him like a man. I gave my employees a fair wage. I helped them when they needed money, or school or to start their own business and yes, I even bailed a few out of jail. I followed the rules and paid all my taxes business and personal. And yeah, I b!tched but I paid them.

    And now that I should be able to sit back and relax and enjoy what time is left I find that I am the bad guy. I am the Enemy, the Deplorable because I think you stand in respect during the anthem and the pledge. I’m the white racist with white privilege. I’m the problem because I don’t thing “diversity” is in America’s best interest. Wow. What a great country.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  138. Take heart, Hoagie. If WaPo is any indicator, the Left will suffocate under the weight of their own delusions and wishful thinking. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/alabama-defeat-leaves-trump-badly-weakened-isolated-amid-mounting-challenges/2017/09/27/5983f748-a39c-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?utm_term=.10f651e75e56
    Does any sane person believe that it was Trump who suffered a defeat? Badly weakened? Isolated? Where can I get some the of the stuff they smoke at WaPo?

    nk (dbc370)

  139. Neill never beat Hillary now, isn’t much of the reporting here, just two or three notches less hysterical?

    Mulvaney made a reasonably solid presentation.

    narciso (d1f714)

  140. “One thing about Democrats is they tell you what horrible things they’ll do in power, generally. Whereas republicans run on repealing Obamacare, small government and lower taxes. And they apparently don’t mean any of it.”

    What a bunch of tinfoil-hat BS. Various incarnations of Obamacare repeal/reform passed the House and came within one vote in the Senate multiple times. It’s hardly like the party as a whole repudiated their opposition to Obamacare.

    Collins never “ran on repealing Obamacare”, so that leaves 51 that did, and 50 of them have supported or voted for at least one of the repeal proposals this year, Murkowski being the only exception.

    Dave (445e97)

  141. I also think it’s so darling the way people think they will get rid of the income tax when the national sales tax comes in.

    We’ll get rid of the income tax over ten years how does that sound good ok

    Patterico (115b1f)

  142. What a bunch of tinfoil-hat BS. Various incarnations of Obamacare repeal/reform passed the House and came within one vote in the Senate multiple times. It’s hardly like the party as a whole repudiated their opposition to Obamacare.

    Collins never “ran on repealing Obamacare”, so that leaves 51 that did, and 50 of them have supported or voted for at least one of the repeal proposals this year, Murkowski being the only exception.

    Poor metric. Look at who voted against what they voted for before and you will spot the most obvious phonies. I have convinced myself that I wrote multiple posts about this.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  143. You did, Dave is like the anoying weatherman in groundhog day.

    narciso (d1f714)

  144. We’ll get rid of the income tax over ten years how does that sound good ok

    And the national debt in eight!

    (N.B. Crime and violence already ended on January 20)

    Dave (445e97)

  145. RIP Hef!

    harkin (75a6dd)

  146. Hilarious how these lying Democrat corksoakers have insisted for years and years that there’s no problem with Social Security.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  147. R.I.P. Hugh Hefner

    Icy (42a669)

  148. Hugh Heffner. What a life. That’s one guy for whom you can’t say, “He’s in a better place, now”.

    nk (dbc370)

  149. Maybe if hogs the 72 virgins, but that’s too much teaching from scratch.

    urbanleftbehind (3c8eef)

  150. Poor metric. Look at who voted against what they voted for before and you will spot the most obvious phonies. I have convinced myself that I wrote multiple posts about this.

    You did, and I wrote a long and considered reply to one of them on TJTB at the time, that got no responses from anyone. I won’t repeat it, but it still reflects my belief.

    While Obamacare is a disaster, like all entitlements there are people who would be screwed without it and I don’t think it’s realistic to imagine you can (in effect) tell them to go to hell by repealing the law while making no provision for the consequences (which is what the July “partial repeal” and “skinny repeal” proposals boiled down to) without paying a moral and political price. McCain voted *for* the most comprehensive (and in his view, I’m sure, most responsible) “repeal and replace” proposal in July, which drew “no” votes from such “phonies” as Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Mike Lee and Rand Paul…

    (This scorecard showing each senator’s vote on the three July proposals is handy for reference purposes).

    Dave (445e97)

  151. @Dave:like all entitlements there are people who would be screwed without it and I don’t think it’s realistic to imagine you can (in effect) tell them to go to hell by repealing the law while making no provision for the consequences

    1) Why does this argument only work in one direction? Like all entitlements there are people who are screwed by enacting it and I don’t think it’s realistic to imagine you can (in effect) tell them to go to hell by enacting the law while making no provision for the consequences. That logic stopped no one from supporting Obamacare, yet identical logic is applied to oppose its repeal.

    2) Suppose I allow the argument to work in only one direction: then you are saying that any time a law is passed where a few people reap concentrated benefits that are paid for by everyone else, then it is “telling them to go to hell” to repeal it–well everyone can’t get that deal, can they? Because it’s zero-sum. We can’t all live at each others’ expense.

    So I guess you got to gang up with your tribe to be first to loot the others. And that’s how got Trump.

    Frederick (a81afc)

  152. remember this is just notional tax reform coward-ass navy sleaze-boy John McCain will tank at the last minute because bipartisan

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. I just put up a Hefner obituary post if people want to discuss our recently departed greatest American satyr.

    JVW (42615e)

  154. If you like VAT you can keep your cash, I promise. There will be no federal laws drafted to make cash transactions illegal. Did you believe you could keep your doctor? Natch!
    Ben burn (40f73a) — 9/27/2017 @ 1:12 pm

    I spend all my cash at gun shows.

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  155. @149. That’s one guy for whom you can’t say, “He’s in a better place, now”.

    Can you be sure?

    Maybe you’re wrong; but if you’re right, none of us has much to look forward to, eh.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. What’s basic necessities? Well we’ll have to hash that out. Prescription drugs, staple foods that can’t be easily consumed on the premises…
    Dustin (ba94b2) — 9/27/2017 @ 2:51 pm

    I worked at a C Store quite a few years ago now. A guy used to buy an Icee and an unheated burrito almost every day on his EBT card. He would studiously place a straw on the counter next to his items. If he stuck the straw in the Icee and heated his burrito it was no go. Now Subways all over this state say they take EBT.

    A longer time ago I went to eat at my cousin’s house. Her roomate was on food stamps so she asked if I would go to Safeway and buy some milk. I guess she gave me a 20. I remember it was as strange as Canadian currency. I was mortified passing it to the checker and amazed when they handed me cash back. Her roomate also won a date with some big Soap Star. What a country!

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  157. @89. Pfft. Revisit the 1970’s: you’ll find many of the IOUs in the SS lockbox have Bob Dole’s signature on them.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/27/2017 @ 2:54 pm

    Does it look anything like a Spirograph?

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  158. How many times can you fire an empty magazine?
    Ben burn (40f73a) — 9/27/2017 @ 4:00 pm

    42

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  159. I remember back in the 70’s there was a joke about how Democrats and Republicans make love. The only part I can remember is that Democrats sit on the edge of the bed and tell you how great it’s going to be.

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  160. @138 Rev Hoagie

    Black Markets Matter

    Pinandpuller (03b237)

  161. @152 Of course the argument doesn’t work in only one direction.

    What *should* have happened was that an informed and engaged president used the bully pulpit to make a compelling case for the harm done by Obamacare to real people, and the benefits of a consensus replacement worked out by the GOP. If, say, Ted Cruz were sitting in the Oval Office, that’s what would have happened.

    But Ted Cruz isn’t sitting in the Oval Office, and instead we got a one-sided and largely unanswered litany of “people will DIE!” from the Democrats, while Republicans – bereft of any engagement or leadership from the dotard in the White House who was too busy golfing and hate-tweeting B-list celebrities – fought among themselves and never delivered any coherent narrative in support of the change.

    Dave (445e97)

  162. Time for Californians to demand that their legislators and Governor Grandpa Simpson-Brown severely reduce the state income tax.

    Colonel Haiku (6c3294)

  163. Dustin you ignorant slut. We did no such thing. We fought and fought. We pushed and got the 5% cap on interest removed — by Carter. We elected Ronald Reagan. We pushed and got IRAs. We pushed and got 401(k)s. We pushed and got stock trading away from the broker priesthood.

    You lot came after and did nothing but whine that all the sh1t we got for you wasn’t enough.

    Bite me. There are 50 million Americans over 65, and we all vote. Good luck screwing us.

    Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 6:43 pm

    Bwahahahaha

    True, there’s no chance of any justice in this situation. But don’t worry, every succeeding generation just guilty of the same stuff. Every time we pass debt to the future, whether via the social security scam or just debt, we didn’t pay our way. We screwed the future taxpayers. Morally they don’t owe us as much (in the case of boomers, I’d say we owe very little money). Politically, right now, there’s nothing to be done about it, but it’s a growing sentiment.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  164. 65. Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 1:54 pm

    Consider how you would feel if you were 65+ and living off your after-tax savings. Right now, such folks are essentially done paying taxes — having paid through the nose for years.

    That’s of course the fault with that idea, (at the level of first stage thinking) and it’s noteworthy how that very obvious problem can be ignored, along with some others that aren;t so obvious.

    You’d need an alternative maximum tax based on income, AND maybe some way to keep track of spending, like special debut cards, so the money could be rebated. Or you give everyone a big rebate.

    Sammy Finkelman (4bb3ca)

  165. Yes they hailed your taxes, and follushly spent it, so there is reason to be angry.

    narciso (d1f714)

  166. Kevin and his Senior constituency vote?

    Judge Roy Bean exults.

    Ben burn (101c24)

  167. I think Moore might not be such a patsy for this Ryanist drivel, although Alabamians kind of get off easy, relatively speaking.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  168. And this milestone must make Mo Brooks think I almost died facing that old Bernie Bro and for what?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  169. And the cutiousuty that staid bro had communication with duffuss Durbin and duckworth is none.

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. 135. Kevin M (752a26) — 9/27/2017 @ 7:17 pm

    Why do you think they’ve not mentioned capital gains taxes or rates? Did they forget?

    Maybe they’re not proposing any changes in this version of the bill.

    What I read was:

    1. Elimination of most itemized deductions, including state and local income taxes and real estate taxes. The main ones left would be the mortgage interest deduction and charitable contributions. I am not sure they will mean anything to anyone. All retirement and college savings exclusions from income maintained.

    2. Elimination of personal exemptions, to be replaced by an increase in the standard deduction and tax credits. The standard deduction might be nearly doubled. The child tax credit also multiplied by one and a half or doubled with all of the first $1,000 per child refundable. A $500 tax credit for other people who might now be claimed as a dependent. A later or perhaps no phaseout.

    3. The lowest tax bracket to be 12% instead of 10%. The next tax bracket to be 25% The third 35% with a possible 39.6% The levels at which these brackets apply to be determined later. This proposal is not yet fully written.

    4. Business pass through income to be taxed at a flat rate of 25% with some provisions to try to prevent high income individuals who do not currently incorporate themselve from incorporating themselves.

    5. Total elimination of the federal estate tax, probably as in 2010, which would mean assets would be subject to the capital gains tax.

    6. Elimination of the Alternative Minimum Tax. This would probably especially help Donald Trump.

    7. Corporate tax rate cut from a maximum of 35% to 20%.

    8. Immediate expensing of business investment, combined with some sort of limitation on deductibility of interest paid for business purposes. The way expensing was once proposed was that the current value would be deducted. I’m not sure if they have reached that level of sophistication. The immediate expensing to last only five years, presumably with the idea of really encouraging capital investment, or maybe tokeep the budget score lower.

    9. Elimination of many business deductions and industry specific initiatives but some (mostly business) tax credits retained, like for research and development and low income housing.

    10. A one time tax (at an unspecified lower rate – this proposal is not all worked out, as I said) on corporate profits held abroad whether the companies want to repatriate them now or not. After that taxation goes mostly to a territorial system with some effort to prevent that from being used as a loophole.

    11. Proposed budget reolution allows net increae in the deficit from tax changes of $1.5 trillion, but because of assumed ecomomic growth, Republicans say they can enact a tax cut amounting to $5 trillion (over ten yearsm, of course) under static analysis.

    Sammy Finkelman (4bb3ca)

  171. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/alabama-tide-portends-another-angry-voter-wave/article/2635744

    “Trump saw it coming and laid off the sharpest criticisms of the victor, Judge Roy Moore. Voters abandoned a once-popular Republican statewide elected official for a religious fundamentalist who makes even conservative Christian believers uneasy, ”

    I see no evidence wingers are uneasy about their hanging judge.

    Ben burn (101c24)

  172. I believe the best way to force tax reform, fairness and reductions while forcing the reduction of spending is by ending automatic tax deductions. If every worker in this country had to mail in a check at the end of each month this sh!t would end and end fast. Many people don’t even know what their gross salary is. If they were forced to reach in their pocket and pay the taxes an entirely new attitude about “entitlements” would sweep the nation. The greatest con the Dems ever pulled (beside SS and soon the ACA) was the Payroll Deduction Plan. It hides their theft in an insidious way.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  173. Hoagie

    People can see their paycheck deductions. What we need to see is MILSPEC contractor budgets so we can cease the $1000 left-handed monkey wrenches.

    Ben burn (101c24)

  174. I believe the best way to force tax reform, fairness and reductions while forcing the reduction of spending is by ending automatic tax deductions.

    And we can then hire 100x the present number of IRS agents, to track down everyone who doesn’t pay.

    Dave (445e97)

  175. (to #176) and that HR Block that holds down the strip mall …gone!…as well as those 401/457 K marketeers (“when you select “0” for exemptions on your w4, you are giving the government an interest free loan”) during open enrollment.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  176. 174. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 9/28/2017 @ 8:21 am

    The greatest con the Dems ever pulled (beside SS and soon the ACA) was the Payroll Deduction Plan.

    That happened in 1943. As a result,I think many people in the United States didn’t pay taxes on their 1942 income (since they were paying on their 1943 income, and otherwise they would have had to pay twice. Prior to 1943, there was no income tax withholding and people paid income taxes the next year when they filed their income tax return.)

    Income tax rates, or maybe threshholds, had been raised during World War II, so now it affected very many more people.

    It hides their theft in an insidious way.

    You don’t think that’s good? The best tax is a tax that nobody feels. Why would, or should, Congress sabotage itself that way? If Congress is against a tax, just don’t tax. If there is a tax, it should be as painless as possible. This would be Congress ginning up public pressure against itself. And many people would not be able to pay.

    I’m for easy to pay taxes. We should have taxes that it is impossible or nearly impossible not to be able to pay. Property taxes are easy to calculate (although not to fairly assess) but can result in many people not being able to afford it, unless maybe you have something like California’s Proposition 13, which makes the tax rate tied to the original purchase price. Income tax can be sometimes very hard to pay. A sales or consumption tax is not possible not to afford (at the consumer level) although it may make the item in question unaffordable.

    Sammy Finkelman (4bb3ca)

  177. 22. 23. aphrael (3f0569) — 9/27/2017 @ 11:01 am & 11:02 am

    Sammy, at 12: there’s talk of repealing the state and local tax deduction. It’s not clear if there would be an exception for property taxes or not.

    California and NY are not happy with this, and if property taxes aren’t exempted, neither will Texas be.

    Sammy, at 15: property tax is the primary source of tax revenue in Texas.

    As suspected, both the state and local tax deduction and the real estate tax deduction are gone, as well the personal exemption. To compensate the standard deduction is approximately doubled, and the child tax credit increased, with the current $1,000 level made refundable, and anew $500 credit enacted to replace exemptions for dependents who are not children under 17. I read today that the most commonly taken deduction in New York State is property taxes (how can that be? The most common must be state and local income taxes because if a person can;’t do that it probably doesn’t pay to itemize.)

    People in approximately the $75,000 to $200,000 income bracket will be hurt the most, if they live in New York. They won’t be hurt if they live in Florida. The state could see more people motivated to leave. Of course New York Stte is very oersistent in holding on to its residents.

    Also maybe middle income parents of children attending college, who will see a $4,000 plus personal exemption replaced by a $500 tax credit. Anyone above the 12% marginal tax rate is going to lose out on that one.

    Also maybe people with temporary low income one year but who still have substantial itemized deductions, like from mortgage interest or property taxes.

    There is reported to be no increase in the Earned Income Tax Credit (or reduction in the marginal tax rate created by the phaseout) or any reduction in FICA (Social Security) taxes.

    Sammy Finkelman (4bb3ca)

  178. If there’s going to be no more personal exemptions, states are going to have to redraft their own laws, even if all the same terms and conditions for naming someone as a deoendent are carried over to qualifying for the $500 tax credit ir child tax credit.

    The first two exemptions could be figured out from filing status.

    The second personal exemption for people over age 65 (or severely visually impaired) may be gone without replacement, but that is probably something the drafters of the bill haven’t given much thought to. These don’t affect state income taxes, though, I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (4bb3ca)

  179. Liar!

    It’s not good for me, believe me,” Trump said in a speech unveiling the tax reform blueprint on Wednesday.

    “We’re targeting relief to working families,” Trump said in Indianapolis. “We will make sure benefits are focused on the middle class, the working men and women, not the highest-income earners.”

    Ben burn (101c24)

  180. If I put my “cruel hat” on, it is a sort of mediocrity tax.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  181. It’s not good for me, believe me,” Trump said in a speech unveiling the tax reform blueprint on Wednesday.

    It depends on what you look at. bolishing the estate tax could be considered good for him, and there is also the end of the AMT which nobody knows how\ow it might affect him in the future, but the AMT can’t help him.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.2436 secs.