Patterico's Pontifications

11/11/2008

Where Should the Republican Party Go Now?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:54 pm



David Brooks:

It’s only been a week since the defeat, but the battle lines have already been drawn in the fight over the future of conservatism.

In one camp, there are the Traditionalists, the people who believe that conservatives have lost elections because they have strayed from the true creed. George W. Bush was a big-government type who betrayed conservatism. John McCain was a Republican moderate, and his defeat discredits the moderate wing.

To regain power, the Traditionalists argue, the G.O.P. should return to its core ideas: Cut government, cut taxes, restrict immigration. Rally behind Sarah Palin.

Cutting government, cutting taxes, and restricting immigration (at least illegal immigration) sound good to me.

And by the way: “rally behind Sarah Palin” is not a “core idea” of the Republican Party, David. It’s true that most Traditionalists have rallied behind her, and she may well be a Traditionalist candidate in some future race. But however much Traditionalists might like her, let’s not load the dice by suggesting that supporting her is a “core” Republican idea.

The other camp, the Reformers, argue that the old G.O.P. priorities were fine for the 1970s but need to be modernized for new conditions. The reformers tend to believe that American voters will not support a party whose main idea is slashing government. The Reformers propose new policies to address inequality and middle-class economic anxiety. They tend to take global warming seriously. They tend to be intrigued by the way David Cameron has modernized the British Conservative Party.

Moreover, the Reformers say, conservatives need to pay attention to the way the country has changed. Conservatives have to appeal more to Hispanics, independents and younger voters. They cannot continue to insult the sensibilities of the educated class and the entire East and West Coasts.

I don’t think the future of the Republican party is to be Democrat Lite.

While I disagree with the Traditionalists on some issues — gay marriage, the environment, animal rights, and the like — I tend to fall into what Brooks calls the Traditionalist camp on the major issues.

I still think people believe in cutting taxes and limiting government. They just want a party that is actually going to do it.

Brooks says that Reformers argue that “American voters will not support a party whose main idea is slashing government.” I’m not so sure that the spirit of rugged individualism is dead in this country, and that people are willing to chuck the idea of limited government over the side. I just think voters don’t trust Republicans to actually carry out their stated principles.

My main concern is the changing demographics of the country, which I talked about in this post. We have lost control of our borders, and if the Republican party has truly lost the Latino vote by championing tight control of the border, this election result may signal a permanent retrenchment. Yet I can’t see dealing with that problem by declaring the borders open. This may be the biggest practical problem facing the party.

I still think that there is a strong element of conservatism in this country; people went to the polls and voted against gay marriage (which I support) and for Obama (whom I oppose). There is still a belief in conservative principles, but we lack a leader to stand up for them.

We need a leader who won’t cave to the elites or to the religious fanatics, but who will stand up for genuine American principles in a smart and different way. Someone who presents like Obama, but who believes the opposite of everything Obama believes.

I just think we have to find the right figure to articulate our principles, and be smarter about how we do it. And we have to convince the country that we are willing to actually put these principles into action.

The future of the Republican party does not lie in abandoning our principles, but in finally standing up for them.

396 Responses to “Where Should the Republican Party Go Now?”

  1. Um. Puerto Escondido is nice.

    Dan Collins (57d0a9)

  2. let’s not load the dice by suggesting that supporting her is a “core” Republican idea.

    Isn’t it?

    Allah (06eb6b)

  3. Ding Ding Ding!!!
    We have a winner!
    (Patterico that is)

    Ken in Camarillo (481b14)

  4. Do away with primaries and elect Palin for the 2012 ticket…………………

    (Just kidding)

    Oiram (983921)

  5. Let’s eschew the whole taxes and government argument and go back to the basics of what the Republican Party ought to stand for. Remember what Dear Leader himself said about the GOP in his election night speech: the Republican Party is “a party founded on the values of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity.” It seems that we can go a long way in promoting those values. Tax cuts and smaller government are the byproducts of self-relicance and individual liberty, not the root of them.

    We should respect Obama and the Dems but fight like hell anytime they promote a policy in which the government makes decisions on behalf of the citizen, or usurps and economic or personal liberty that we enjoy in this country. This are the principles on which we should frame our policy positions.

    JVW (4a6382)

  6. I say rally behind fair elections, fair representation, and freedom of speech. Oppose judicial activism and amnesty. Keep the filibuster as is.

    That’s IT. Everything else, economic military or social, is a waste of time and effort. We need to focus on limiting their power and preserving our path back.

    At least for the first half of 2009.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  7. let’s not load the dice by suggesting that supporting her is a “core” Republican idea.

    Isn’t it?

    It might seem that way from the last election, in which supporting her could seem at times like as a litmus test.

    But reading the words literally, and in a more historical context, Brooks’s contention is laughable. Substitute “Ronald Reagan” for “Sarah Palin” and he might have had a point.

    But then, Brooks is admittedly one of the new moderates, or “Reformers,” as he would have it. And so he wants to belittle the idea of “Traditionalism” (a label that I also find loaded).

    I think it’s possible to conclude that Sarah Palin wasn’t quite ready for Prime Time and still be a Republican who believes in *all* the core Republican ideas. Such an animal may be *rare* — and may endure a lot of scorn — but I still think it’s possible.

    Me, I’d rather see a new bloc emerge — one less beholden to the religious right, and more sensible on issues like the environment and gay marriage — but still solidly for small government and lower taxes. Kind of like libertarians, but not crazy in the way that pure libertarians tend to be.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  8. “Cutting government, cutting taxes, and restricting immigration (at least illegal immigration) sound good to me.”

    That would certainly be great if the Republicans actually started doing those things, instead of just talking about doing them.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  9.      If only Republicans would be just that, Republicans.
         In my opinion, Republicans should have been, and should still, use their bully pulpits (sure, together they are not as big as a president’s bully pulpit, but they still have them), to hammer at at least the issues of APPROPRIATE regulation of Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, banks and the like, and PROTECTING our borders from illegal immigrant invasion.
         With respect to the first issue, it’s the Dems who have been more in the pocket of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and those entities have been mis-regulated. The second issue is a no-lose issue for the Republicans if they would just seize it! Sure, some Dems would say it’s an anti-Latino issue, but the crime rates and demands on our health care systems show that it is a self-defense issue as opposed to an ethnicity issue.
         The Republicans should stand for something, even if some people adamantly oppose what the Republicans stand for. The odds are quite low that any of those people would like Republicans regardless of what Republicans stand for. So, Republicans have really nothing to lose by being Republicans.

    Ira (28a423)

  10. I think you broke it down correctly, but you are missing something. What I think the people were looking for was a “leader”, and McCain was not a leader. A leader does not march toward the people, he marches toward an ideal; the people follow. McCain marched towards the people, that is why he lost. You cannot follow someone who is marching towards you.

    Thomas (1c2383)

  11. I just think voters don’t trust Republicans to actually carry out their stated principles.

    I agree, Patterico.
    It was just 6 years ago that Bush’s Republicans actually gained seats in Congress rather than losing them, as is typical. 6 years ago.
    Republicans blew it.
    They can get it back by doing well. They don’t need to be just one thing or another, but they do have to do what they say they’ll do.

    MayBee (e66885)

  12. heh.

    Post the 2008 presidential campaign (or, as I prefer to describe it, the extinction event at the K-T boundary) there are only two paths forward for the GOP.
    Path 1– devolution: retreat to fundamentalism. Purify traditional conservative values. “We lost because we weren’t conservative enough”. Burn the middle ground to force moderates into the purist camp. Punish and excommunicate defectors and apostates to prevent them from corrupting the pure conservative ideology and to prevent others from defecting.
    Kinda like Ross Douthat’s attack on Doug Kmiec.
    Path 2– evolution: develop memetics that appeal to youth voters, minorities-soon-to-be-majorities, and teh college-educated. That means discarding or compromising on all socon values.

    I’m with Brooks…99% confidence interval that conservatives will go fundamentalist.
    Allahpundit is right.
    Palin is the perfect candidate to lead retrograde fundamentalist socons, who will be all that is left in the GOP.

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  13. Republicans should preempt DC Statehood (and consequent two Senate seats for a smallish Federally dominated city) by proposing a constitutional amendment giving DC congressional representation, the next step from the 23rd Amendment, before the next congress is sworn in. Before the deluge of change bowls us over. It is unreasonable to assume they will not enact DC Statehood that they have been trying for so long to achieve. Now while the air is clear let us propose an alternative.

    Republican senators should announce right now that they will boycott the senate if the filibuster is changed. If the Democrats want one party rule, let them have it while we still have a free press to report what they have done. If we wait, it will be too late.

    I think these two measures are reasonable.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  14. Wheelers_cat,

    Bwaaaaa, great false strawman. What a joke.

    I always laugh with when a Liberal claims “Conservatism” is some sort of anarchaeic idea.

    Nothing old about, Be Responsible for Yourself and Contribute to Government/Society.

    What is old however is Gov.t will solve your problems in spite of your creating them with your own hands.

    The only problem conservatism has is conving young and minorities of the following …. you don’t need the gov.t to succeed.

    If Obama has done 1 favor for Conservatism is prove Big Gov.t is not he answer to achieving. Say what you will, the kid hustled (like a real hustler) in a corrupt cesspool and made it to the top clean as a whistle. Says something about him in spite of GOVT….

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  15. Path 2– evolution: develop memetics that appeal to youth voters, minorities-soon-to-be-majorities, and teh college-educated. That means discarding or compromising on all socon values.

    For the past, oh, forty years people like this have been saying that Republicans have to embrace social liberalism — abortion, the entire gay agenda, feminism, multi-culti race hustling, moral relativism — in order to prosper. These are exactly the sort of people we should not be listening to.

    JVW (4a6382)

  16. I thought the bidding war between obama and mccain was obscene, but obama won that one (when do I get my free gas and no mortgage). The thuggery worked, the illegal money worked, the fraudulent registrations worked, perhaps we need to stop doing what Americans’ do and descend to the third world tactics which gave us o.

    Judith (76ca0a)

  17. We are not, at least I am not, fighting for the soul of the Republican Party. I am fighting for our system of government.

    Our system will not last forever. Have you ever wondered how it could completely unravel and become like a third world pseudo republic? Do you see how vulnerable it is right now? I don’t know if Obama is a good or bad man, but I know he and his party are in a position to do tremendous and permanent damage if they choose to.

    There is nothing more important than ensuring that this does not happen.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  18. I think the Republicans should only fillibuster things which are long-term and difficult to undo. The other stuff, let the democrats hang themselves.

    Fillibuster , Supreme Court, Federal Judiciary, etc …. fine. All this other stuff like taxes, et al they should simply say “We will allow the vote” and then come out 0% for.

    When things go bust as Democrats are drunk with power then say “Hey We Never Did This in the Spirit of Bi-Partisanship” and then go out and hammer them for being unable to lead.

    Playing the “principled Opposition” by filibustering is not going to help the party any time soon. The Bush hangover is going to last and if we fight it — only longer.

    Play nice till the 2010 and then run a principled campaign using conservative values and some big, simple ideas..

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  19. Conservatives have to appeal more to Hispanics, independents and younger voters. They cannot continue to insult the sensibilities of the educated class and the entire East and West Coasts.

    This is superfluous fluff. Before anything else, Republicans have to decide what exactly it is they stand for and then not attempt to tailor it to be user-friendly to various groups. What a watered down bit of twaddle principle become. And we’ve already seen that attempting to become all things to all men does not win elections and reaching across the aisle should come only after the WH has been secured.

    And anyone (but Brooks) knows that the mere existence of Republicans & Conservatives is itself a direct insult to the sensibilities of those who know better than we…

    Dana (79a78b)

  20. The voters don’t want someone to stand up for ‘principles’, we want leaders who will take steps to improve the economy and make us safer. To illustrate, Reagan didn’t score with wanting to limit government because people are against government per se, he scored because people were against a government that they saw as harmful (exemplified by his ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help). In the same way, the Democrats are now scoring with their anti-business agenda, not because the American people are inherently anti-business, but because too many voters see business as being a source of the problems we’re having, and not a solution. In other words, we want a President who will get rid of what is keeping us from economic success; when government was seen as a bigger threat to economic success, we voted for those who favored a smaller government, and when we see business as the threat, we vote for those who want more restrictions placed on these evil businesses.

    And Bush didn’t lose the support of the American people because he was pro-big government (except from the relative handful of true believers), he lost because his programs didn’t make life easier for people. It wasn’t so much what he tried to do, it was his incompetence that doomed him and McCain (granted, much of what he wanted to do was doomed from the start).

    Both the GOP and the Democrats want to help people (at least by what they say in public), where we disagree is the way to go about doing so. The GOP has lost its voice and ability to argue that its way is better than what the Democrats are offering. (And it didn’t help that so many Republicans were hypocrites; why accept Republican dogma when the GOP themselves weren’t walking the walk?) And the Democrats are winning because they’ve convinced voters that they have a plan… so where are the Republicans arguing that the Democrats plan (such as bailing out Detroit, raising taxes, relaxing and not enforcing immigration laws) is bad for America… in the language of dollars and cents and not on the silly philosophical drivel that voters just don’t care about?

    stevesturm (369bc6)

  21. Portraying Palin as some kind of “fundamentalist socon” is a pantload; it is exactly what the left has done, and bears little resemblance to the governor whose main attribute was the balls to take on the corruptocrats in her own party. She no more wears her social conservatism on her sleeve than did Regan, or Gingrich. Did Republicans lose because they ‘weren’t conservative enough’? Yep. Because they were swept to power after decades of rotting liberal Democrat hegemony in Congress, made a Contract (remember that?) with the American people, then abandoned it to K Street money and power. Sure…let’s go out and pander to oatmeal-brained college students, who don’t vote anyway. Let’s make nice with Waxman and Kennedy, Pelosi and now Obama, who would abandon children born alive after the attempt to kill them in the womb failed. Principles? That is sooooo 1976. We gotta move with the times.

    Spare me. This thread isn’t about conservatism. It’s about the Republican party. I’m the former, not the latter. I’m fine with campaigning on simple issues: low taxes, individual responsibility, government by the owner’s manual (The Constitution”, strong national defense, welcome immigration of the legal variety.

    Bob C (770ab9)

  22. Well, a good first step would be trying to fire CA’s legislative analyst Mac Taylor who today “proposed raising the state income tax by 5 percent for all taxpayers in 2009.”

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  23. Our core principles are valid. After all, the Dear Leader himself campaigned on a promise to cut the taxes of 95% of Americans.

    We need to nominate candidates who believe in those principles and can convince voters that they will carry them out if elected.

    We also need to do a better job of convincing those who voted for Democrats that our core principles are in their interests as well as the nation’s.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  24. yessssssss….Palin’12.
    …get it over with…these morons won’t rest until we try to elect her….my god, what a disaster she would be……the crying jag when Survivor asked her not to play Eye of the Tiger…her handlers reading a high school civics text aloud to her with a thesarus…..and the clothes, oh god, the clothes…..she would bankrupt the treasury with binge spending everytime she got a bad press release…..

    Patterico's evil twin (98fa0c)

  25. There must be some intelligent way of convincing Hispanic Americans that closing the border is not an attack on them. We respect hard working legal immigrants. Its the invaders that concern us and this point seems to be lost with Americans of Hispanic or Latino heritage.

    While most of us loved Reagan we cannot keep fighting the Cold War. We won most of the issues Reagan championed. Now we must address the concerns of 2008 not 1981..

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  26. “Conservatives have to appeal more to Hispanics, independents and younger voters.”

    One thing that would benefit this country immensely would be to raise the voting age to 30. Letting teenagers vote is possibly the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard in my life.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  27. Wheeler is trying to instigate something, or is going through life with blinders on. Or both.

    Thomas (4d15b9)

  28. oatmeal-brained college students, who don’t vote anyway

    Umm…pardon.
    We voted.

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  29. Whenever I read political pundits use the term “mimetics,” other obscure-nationist words come to mind. The “tell” (in poker parlance) is the um, artful use of punctuation and capitalization, along with a self-indulgent and smug tone. Such a style is the very definition of “twee” when it appears in political or professional discourse.

    I have to wade through it every single semester from 19 year olds. The solution?

    Three words: Strunk and White. Read it, learn it, live it.

    To the person writing that way, the above seems like empty criticism. But for folks who have to wade through many sophomoric term papers that read precisely this way, it is a reminder that verbiage does not equal clarity, let alone wit.

    As for the question of what the Republican Party should do, and the problems with elitism and snobbery….

    Thomas Soule has a great column on this subject. Ditto Michael Steele. I’m going to try to post the links:

    http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/11/11/intellectuals

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122637487379316665.html

    Keep in mind that some posters enjoy watching intrafamily verbal fistfighting. That’s because what keeps the Right apart allows the Left to rule more completely.

    A basic rule of thumb: what makes Howard Dean happy is probably not something Republicans should do.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  30. Who is talking about fighting the Cold War? The ‘Reagan was then, this is now’ line makes no sense at all. He said that government is the problem, not the solution…do you need more Fannie Mae meltdowns to convince you those words still ring true? More Department of Homeland Securitys, more NCLB, bigger Medicare entitlements? Conservatism didn’t lose this, and the ’06, elections. Rebublicans did. There is, unfortunately, a difference, and the sooner you realize it the better.

    Bob C (770ab9)

  31. So, in casting an identity politics vote for Barack Obama, a hip young (by political standards) African American, young voters were also apt to vote straight ticket for the Democrats down ballot

    Surls at 1:44 p.m. – yep.

    Dana (79a78b)

  32. Yeah, you voted. All 18% of you. Congrats.

    Bob C (770ab9)

  33. Ah, that explains it, Schrodinger prime is oatmeal brained.

    Thomas (4d15b9)

  34. In a day when the government has unwisely taken over the financial system en toto, and is proposing bailing out failed autoworker union policies, Ronald Reagan’s message is never more topical than today.

    SPQR (72771e)

  35. That’s the whole problem. It has been going places. The republican party should be a conservative party. Instead what we have is an ever evolving party that thinks that compassionate conservatism is going to increase it’s ranks by leaching liberals out of the Democratic party. What it does is cause conservatives to not have a place of assured protection from liberal progressive oppressive spread the wealth policies. We voted for Republicans in 1994 en mass, and we got a majority position, and what did it get us? It got us a nice respectable balanced budget, and even some leftovers, and then the Republican party became the spread the wealth party. Tax cuts for everyone, increased spending all around, more government mandates, prescription medication entitlement, the fastest growing federal budget since who knows when, and staggering back to back to back to back to back deficit spending years. That followed up by the socializing of the insurance industry, the banking industry, further socializing of the mortgage industry, and soon auto industry, and when the newly elected Democratic Majority and its new Ruler Barack Obama says they need to increase the socialization of medical care, schools, and nationalize the oil industry, the electrical power industry and every other industry they think they can get their hands on, they will simply say, but how is it any different than say, AIG or FORD or GENERAL MOTORS or FANNIE MAE or FREDDIE MAC?

    Great job, just keep moving you retards, and no voter is ever going to give you the job. As far as I am concerned, if we need to move, it is back to Reagan and much closer to purity than towards the liberal left.

    A Stoner (4c5fb7)

  36. Re: #28.

    Like we didn’t figure out you were a college student.

    Three words: Strunk and White. Trust me on that.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  37. tyvm.
    😉
    Ruffini says we gave Obama 73 electoral college votes.

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  38. Wheeler is trying to instigate something, or is going through life with blinders on. Or both.

    “Wheeler” is the 900th pseudonym of the poor mental case whose given name is Kate. She’s an admitted troll (she prefers “griefer”), and to the extent she may have ever honestly expressed a political philosophy, it amounts to technocratic fascism.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  39. Ruffini says we gave Obama 73 electoral college votes.

    And you’re just the type of fool who’ll believe him.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  40. If history was invented yesterday then maybe I buy this argument about people not believing in “conservatism.”

    People vote what they feel benefits them. If people believe less government and less handouts helps ……

    For example the single biggest failure in the last few months is the UTTER inability of Republicans to rightfully pin the Mortgage mess on Democrats.

    Democrats wanted more home ownership for the poor. Democrats used govt to do this via Fannie and Freddie. Democrats did not want to put limitations on these programs. Democrats would punish banks if they did not help. Democrats got lots of money from the GSEs and Wall Street.

    Result: Speculation and Bust. Now the Poor are worse off for it. Even the Republicans from Wall Street are worse off. Somehow GWB gets blamed? Hello “Free Lunch” Democrats, pleas step up for your serving of shit.

    Keep repeating this “No Free Lunch” message and it will permeate.

    On the flip side, same minorities who get the “No Free Lunch” message need to see a Conservatives as advocates for “fair” playing field. That is to say stop the corporate welfare, simplify the tax code so as to show look it works without a tax lawyer, push the judiciary and law enforcement to pursue white collar as well as blue collar crime, school vouchers, etc.

    These are the things that minorities want. It is also what conservatives want. But when they don’t see this in unison under one voice from one party — it loses its effects.

    Jeez, Ted Stevens and his ilk. Ohio Republicans, the wannabee child molester Foley, The jerk from Iowa (Grassly) and his corn subisdies. Mel “Slime Bag Trial Lawyer” Martinez in Florida protecting sugar cane and trial lawyers ….. it is really depressing.

    I can not defend the indefensible as a Republican Conservative. This is why 96% Blacks and 75% of Hispanics voted Democrats — at least their hyprocrisy is yields something they can access in the short run, welfare, free this, free that.

    Principles are great if you live them and folks can see — unfortunately Bush Conservatism was/is Ivy League, Elitist, Arrogance wrapped up in the WORDS-ONLY conservative packaging.

    Anyway…….

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  41. Eric….don’t confuse them with books they’ve never read.

    David Brooks’ brain has been addled hanging around the NYT. The claptrap that he, Buckly (Christoper), Noonan, Adelman, Kmeic, and the rest of them are peddling is garbage. If the Republican party can’t communicate the message that Reagan’s basic principles are best for the country, they’d better get used to the back bench, because they’ll be spending a long time in the minority.

    Bob C (770ab9)

  42. The claptrap that he, Buckly (Christoper), Noonan, Adelman, Kmeic, and the rest of them are peddling is garbage.

    …its like they too just want to be one of the cool kids,no matter the cost.

    Dana (79a78b)

  43. Um. Dorm-denizen? YOU didn’t give anyone any electoral votes. Groups of people did.

    Nice to know that you speak for all college students. It’s much cleaner and nicer than actually working for a living, after all.

    Let me quote what I heard about half an hour ago, in line at the coffeehouse on campus:

    “Man. You wouldn’t believe, dude, my Thursdays.”

    “Yeah?”

    “Check it. I have classes from 9 AM to 3, without a break.”

    “Brutal.”

    But yes, feel your perception of power for now.

    Cue that “Rage Against the Machine” music.

    Say. Got that new iPhone?

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  44. Bob C,

    I have never had any use for the Cocktail Circuit Republicans. Bush and his clans are that.

    Their principles end the minute they like you and re-invigorated the minute they don’t.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  45. Eric, lovely dialogue.

    Doesn’t it make you want to beat them to a pulp with a baseball bat?

    Reminds me of college, school 3 days — morning to evening, work, 3 days — morning to evening.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  46. Hey Bob C. The best solution is to simply have the person who writes in “fake free verse / bad haiku” style without punctuation or those patriarchal capital letters to grade a stack of freshmen term papers.

    Brrrr.

    It really does improve their writing, when they see how intellectually lazy most term papers are.

    Rob Crawford: in another thread, that Dorm-Denizen (“…pass the weed, dude…“) admitted to being banned from all kinds of blogs. So as you say, it’s not about discussion. It’s acting out, probably from a sense of powerlessness.

    Trouble is, we all lack power in our complex world. It’s better to try to learn from others than count coup with bad wordplay.

    Oh well. You guessed correctly: I’m almost done with a whole stack of papers to be graded.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  47. lol, Eric, I don’t live in dorm.

    18 percent times a 25 percent increase in the Democratic margin equals 4.5 points, or a majority of Obama’s popular vote margin. Had the Democratic 18-29 vote stayed the same as 2004’s already impressive percentage, Obama would have won by about 2 points, and would not have won 73 electoral votes from Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, or Indiana.

    Ima cue Keane, instead..Rage is so passee.
    Spiralling
    Goin’ out to Sarah Palin. 😉

    Did you wanna be a winner?
    Did you wanna be an icon?
    Did you wanna be famous?
    Did you wanna be the president?
    Did you wanna start a war?
    Did you wanna have a family?
    Did you wanna be in love?
    Did you wanna be in love?

    I never saw the light
    I never saw the light
    I waited up all night
    But I never saw the light

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  48. Dear RR: I left out all the “ums” in the dialogue.

    They are young and very sure of themselves…but are not experienced. Maybe they will grow into real life. I sure hope so.

    A good book on this subject is “Generation Me” by Twenge. It explains a lot about what is going on on campus these days.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  49. “While I disagree with the Traditionalists on some issues — gay marriage, the environment, animal rights, and the like”

    I think the GOP can take a sensible stance on the environment and animal rights without drinking the hemlock on hockeystick AGW.

    “And by the way: ‘rally behind Sarah Palin’ is not a ‘core idea’ of the Republican Party”/”I just think we have to find the right figure to articulate our principles”

    Agreed on both counts. That’s one thing I didn’t get – most Republicans agree that Bush’s failure to articulate the case for his policies (or even to defend his own character) has been disastrous for the Republican party, but they’re already rooting for Palin in 2012, when she’s shown been less than stellar in that capacity (to be generous). Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate Palin’s record, but it seemed to me that her interview with Katie Couric was one of the three nails in the coffin of the Republican Party this cycle–the other two mavericky and open primary NH as our first and most influential primary, and the economic meltdown/McCain voting for the bailout.

    oneisnotprime (494091)

  50. Oh, man.

    “…lol, Eric, I don’t live in dorm….”

    That one is too easy. But I am not trying to pick a fight. For all the trollery, you haven’t been terrifically rude to me personally.

    For some reason, this quote from Willa Cather came to mind:

    “If youth did not matter so much to itself, it would never have the heart to go on.”

    I admire your self-assuredness, if not your manners. But reality is a freight train bearing down on youth, and answers are not easy, and very seldom pretty.

    Be prepared for a very, very different world than you expected.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  51. Palin needs to go out on the circuit and be smart and honest.

    “I am a Dinner Table Republican, not a Coctail Circuit Republican. While that interview may not have serve us well, let us talk policies that matter to families. Whether we have 57 States, FDR did his fireside chats on TV or Africa is a continent is IRRELEVANT to Conservatism and the US. I want to discuss important things to move this Nation forward in a direction I BELIEVE is ethical, principled and in our best interests economically and politically.”

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  52. Comment by oneisnotprime — 11/11/2008 @ 2:13 pm

    Palin interviews…
    Except, the sit-downs during the campaign were under the restraints imposed by the McCain staff she was working with.
    If you had seen the interview last night with Gretta on FoxNews, you saw a different person.
    The gloves, and the blinders, are off now, and we will once again see the real Sarah Palin.
    From what I have seen, she’s a “kick ass, and take names” type of politician, in all the best ways.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  53. wheelers_cat,

    I was 20 too once. How nice.

    But life does have a way of teaching you certain lesson which are totally inconsistent with the platitudes of your candidate.

    The onll people above 40 who believe in liberalism are those who make a living off it.

    Good luck growing up.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  54. “It’s much cleaner and nicer than actually working for a living, after all.”

    Another thing that might benefit this country immensely would be to limit the franchise to those who pay taxes.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  55. I could see Sarah Palin saying that, RR.

    True, our student voters and “Intellectuals” (see the Thomas Sowell essay on Townhalldotcom today with that title) laugh and carry on. But most voters do not.

    Particularly since the people who are most apt to ridicule Palin (as opposed to simply stating that they do not agree with her politics) run little else than their mouths. They don’t like it when Palin says something about, for example, science. But the scientists seem to have no trouble holding forth about being a governor.

    Hmmm.

    Seriously, RR, the approach you state is the right one.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  56. I don’t believe a majority of voters understand and believe in the principles that underpin the United States, as embodied in the “limited government” US Constitution. The name of the game is now “get some pie,” and both major parties practice that game.
    .
    I think the experiment of self-government is over, but for admitting it. The people are deluded into believing they are self governing, as long as a D or R is in office, and as long as the pie is being handed out. The people will vote for whichever party they think will produce more government pie, for THEM.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  57. I am of the opinion that Gov.t Workers should not be allowed to vote in elections which directly effect their pay grade and job security.

    Buying votes is easy with other people’s money.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  58. I’m pretty sure that the religious right will still have a voice just due to the numbers.
    The religious right can be won over by talking with them, not AT them.
    Most evangelical Christian people I know are; like Sarah Palin, more pragmatic about abortion than people outside think. Palin yesterday described her family as mixed on the issue and she said we can both agree that it’d be good to get to a place where there are fewer and fewer abortions and less and less need for them. People like Palin who know how to talk to the evangelical right need to learn how to reach out to the agnostic conservatives and come to a common near term and far term goals on abortion and other issues.
    The trick will be to bring evangelicals inside the tent to mingle and then appeal to their caring, loving side while not invalidating their concerns about personal responsibilty.

    The war on terror has broken off a lot of social conservative evangelicals because they are unhappy with killing and torture, but are also very uneasy and wise about how brutal and repressive Islamist facists are.

    Any candidate that hits the right notes on personal responsibility + freedom will do well with evangelicals on social issues.
    To the war on terror just hit the note of freedom.

    SteveG (71dc6f)

  59. I am of the opinion that Gov.t Workers should not be allowed to vote in elections which directly effect their pay grade and job security.
    .

    It won’t happen, short of a revolution. Another similar principle would be “Welfare or vote, pick one.” Likewise, won’t happen.
    .
    We’ve traded in the Republic for a democracy, and the people are generally unaware of the ramifications of having participated in that transformation.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  60. Say Dave. I have a horrible thought. Of the average voters, how many could answer the following questions correctly?

    1. What is the capitol of your state?
    2. What is the name of your state governor?
    3. Name one of your two US Senators.
    4. Name the current Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State.
    5. What are the three branches of government?
    6. True or false: Presidents make laws.
    7. Related: Presidents declare war.
    8. What is terminal velocity of a sparrow in mid-flight?

    I couldn’t help the last one.

    But it isn’t it horrifying how little voters know, yet it is okay for them to vote?

    I recommend “The Dumbest Generation,” by Mark Bauerlein.

    Speaking of brrrr….

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  61. Palin needs to clearly tell America she is not from that Club. That is the power of her message and her story.

    Bush, McCain are all boys from the club and people can sense it. It drools from their pores.

    Most Boot Strap Conservatives like myself can’t stand them and all things being equal never would have been inspired to under conservatism if it was they delivering the message.

    Reagan opened my eyes because he was not Cocktail lounge.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  62. I typing some english jibberish but hopefully the message is understood.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  63. “8. What is terminal velocity of a sparrow in mid-flight?”

    African or European?

    😉

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  64. The only latinos who matter from an elections standpoint are the ones who took the time and effort to become citizens. I think many people would be surprised at how that group would respond to a sensible immigration policy.

    The problem is, neither side has put one forward so they have nothing to go on but the general statements indicating an attitude towards the peoples South of the border. In my opinion, a high fence wide gate approach would go over well even among these voters.

    tim maguire (72f509)

  65. I find it rather annoying that “Traditionalist” has little connection with “traditional Republican” (small government, balanced budget, free trade, free enterprise & civil rights). It seems more a euphemism for “religious conservative” by way of “social conservative” than reflecting the traditions of the party.

    To me, back to basics has nothing to do with GWB, Palin or Huckabee or the like (nor to RINOs like our dear Governator, nor to big spending liberals like Nixon). It has to do with going back to Reagan or Goldwater or Gingrich, who knew government for what it was.

    If we don’t have a limited government party here, we’ll have to create one somewhere else.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  66. You cite David Brooks as an authority? Yikes.

    Richard (adfcb0)

  67. 8. What is terminal velocity of a sparrow in mid-flight?

    Laden with a coconut?

    I halfheartedly agree with the assessment that federal employees should not get to vote, but I do think that they should be prohibited from donating to a campaign for federal office.

    JVW (4a6382)

  68. Well, JVW, it depends if it is an African or a European sparrow, as King Arthur asked.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  69. Crap, Dave! I didn’t scroll up!

    I tip my hat to your speed!

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  70. Cutting government, cutting taxes, and restricting immigration (at least illegal immigration) sound good to me.

    How do you cut taxes at a time of large budget deficits without vastly exacerbating those deficits?

    Do you simply accept ever-increasing deficits? Do you actually favor cutting taxes regardless of the size of the budget deficit thereby created, and if not, why not eliminate them completely and run a budget deficit equal to 100% of budget?

    If you want to cut taxes without greatly increasing deficits – you’d be the first Republican president since WWII to do this successfully – what exactly would you cut? You’d need to cut between $500 billion and $1 trillion from the budget in order to balance the budget on John McCain’s tax plan. How would you do it?

    And how do you get the voters to like it?

    These are the kinds of questions I’m really interested in hearing honest, serious conservatives discuss. Right up your alley, huh, Patterico?

    Go ahead. Lay out the specifics of the smaller government agenda. How would you cut the federal budget by 25%?

    I personally suspect there’s a reason why no Republican president has ever tried anything like this, and it involves political suicide. Bashing the federal government is fun, but the kinds of cuts you’d need to continue cutting taxes right now would eliminate genuine functionalities.

    See, for the purposes of this discussion, pretend I’m a moderate, centrist democrat. I’m willing to run deficits for liberal social programs I think will help people in need, but if by 2012 they appear to have failed, my second best preference would be a budget hawk.

    So pretend you’re a Republican. You’re trying to win fiscal conservatives. In order to cut taxes, you have to cut spending – just like the true believers are always agitating for on this comment board.

    What spending? Seriously. get past the slogan. Put some implementable suggestions out there.

    glasnost (3b516f)

  71. “Well, JVW, it depends if it is an African or a European sparrow, as King Arthur asked.”

    Actually, it was a swallow, not a sparrow, but what the heck, close enough for government work.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  72. Wasn’t it, “what is the ‘airspeed’ of a fully laden swallow” not terminal velocity.

    Thomas (1c2383)

  73. See, for the purposes of this discussion, pretend I’m a moderate, centrist democrat. I’m willing to run deficits for liberal social programs I think will help people in need, but if by 2012 they appear to have failed, my second best preference would be a budget hawk.

    See, that’s the thing glasnost. Even when government programs fail, there is never any move to discontinue them. Clinton’s vaunted AmeriCorps is a prime example. It turned out the program only funded about half of the positions that the Clinton Administration called for, yet there is no shortage of big-government liberals who would fight tooth and nail to maintain the program’s funding. Same with the Clinton crime bill — remember the promise of 100,000 new cops on the street? Turns out that the bill did not reach that vaunted goal, and that most departments who accepted the money found that they had to find the budget for the new hires after the program expired. Still, many liberals hold that program as a model for a successful federal government-local government partnership. The day that government programs have the same level of accountability as spending programs in the private sector do is the day that we can tackle the task of shrinking government.

    JVW (4a6382)

  74. “We have lost control of our borders”

    Then nothing matters. The USA is through. It was nice while it lasted. The new Dark Ages are upon us.

    Jim C. (33af9d)

  75. Palin has a political future-just not in the near future.

    Beginning with the youth vote: Liberalism is a right of passage for folks going off to college. Educators are more often than not, liberal, or even far more to the left than the usual Democrat.

    The college audience is not only captive but is also hoping for a grade that propels them towards their goal of graduating as quickly as is possible.

    Kids are impressed with people who aren’t their parents, people that appear far more interesting than their parents, and those who are introducing fascinating ideas to them never thoroughly explored before. IOW, college is cooler than home during this period-way cooler. The instructor seems more worldly and just smarter to them than the folks back home, and, at the very least, different. S/He’s cool.

    I think many of these mainstay “liberal/progressive” notions concerning the “evils” perpetuated on hapless victims by the US government, US emperialism, along with the various relative-isms needs to be seriously challenged in universities, in the media, over the net, and throughout book stores.

    The persons who take on this challange will have to be very appealing, attractive, and thrillingly intelligent as well. I suggest that the hunt for such writers begins.

    One last point concerning the offering up of candidates for a presidential race, or any significant race for that matter-the candidates will now have to be practically unimpeachable, untainted by scandals or dysfunctional home lives, or any trace of greed or poorly chosen associations. If conservatives have any interest in survival,they can no longer provide the ammunition for their opponents.

    This means we can keep on the old guard -but mostly as advisers and consultants. I would like to see this begin immediately-even if that means conservatives are left in the cold and lonely wilderness for a time.

    Anyhoo, there is some silver lining in this because the Democrats will be left with all the heavy lifting, the responsibility and far less excuses. Not to worry, there will be a whole lot of over-reaching in the following years.

    Anyone who comes under this conservative umbrella must be warned he will be continually vetted by his party colleagues and will be asked to step down if the requirements cannot, or will not, be met.

    Patricia Burke (8efa66)

  76. #63 tim maguire

    high fence wide gate

    That’s great. New to me. Would’ve liked it as a McCain 2008 plan.

    m (e0ec75)

  77. If you add up the value of all the shares of stock (the “market cap”) of The New York Times company, it comes to a figure less than the value of its new office building on Eighth Avenue. That means the editorial operations of that newspaper are worth less than nothing, and I haven’t even started on David Brooks yet.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  78. The question for government employees is not job or vote, it is: Civil Service, or Collective Bargaining?

    As for disenfranchising a group of people, that’s easy: Lawyers!
    They should be permanently barred from serving in a legislative capacity at any level of government –
    too much conflict of interest.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  79. Comment by Eric Blair — 11/11/2008 @ 2:30 pm

    The thing is, Eric Blair, we’ve crossed the threshold where knowing these key bits of information are moot points. More important to voters is, which candidate can increase the size of the public trough and how fast?

    Your “What is terminal velocity of a sparrow in mid-flight?” question would garner more interest…at least it involves an animal…oh…wait.

    Dana (79a78b)

  80. Look, we always have these debates after we get thrown out. We deserved it this election and in 2006. But, one thing that annoys me is this rush to blame the so-called religious right. Without traditionalist Christian voters coming out as they do, firstly Sen. McCain would have lost by worse numbers. They are energized. That is where you get the volunteers and money. And the positions of traditionalist Christians are not all that “extreme”. Remember, Ronald Reagan was not all that much of an evangelical Christian, but definatly a traditionalist. Yet he was able to articulate those positions in a manner that did not turn off non-religious voters. I think Gov. Palin could do the same thing. Considering the fact that she was the RUNNING MATE and not the nominee, it made her job tougher. And, she was OUTDRAWING the nominee on the stump. So that says something to me. That says that if Gov. Palin was the nominee, the election could have been closer. Having said that, if she runs for reelection as governor of Alaska and wins, she is in a great position for 2012. And will have all that time to articulate a great conservative message.

    Mark J. Goluskin (7d94a9)

  81. Just to clarify 52% of young people turned out to vote, not 18%. Voters ages 18-30 made up 18% of the voting electorate. That’s a big difference. Whether they won the election for one candidate or not is of little consequence, what is of consequence is that the Republican party is not attempting to reach out to them in the same way it did during the 80s.

    Yes, there are organizations like the YAF and ISI, but they “seem” more radical today than they did in the past. Robert Downey Jr. found groups like the YAF so disturbing back in the day, that he made a documentary studying these young “gorillas in the mist.”

    Sorry Patrick, but as long as Republicans use the language of the Know Nothing Party and reject the idea of a path to citizenship, they will get an increasingly smaller part of the voting pie. You cannot claim to be “of the party of Reagan” while being nativist. Can’t happen. He supported a path to citizenship while simultaneously punishing corporations/businesses who hired illegal immigrants.

    The path to citizenship is a necessary component to ending a kind of permanent serfdom in our society. Low wage workers, in dangerous professions, need to be protected by the same laws that protect citizen workers. Thanks to de facto amnesty, and the coercive threat of deportation, they will not report hazardous work environments. That’s bad.

    If you want to be Sparta, helots and all, that’s fine. Personally, I’d rather be a mixed regime and get to work undermining the demagogues who are continually attacking the rich/middle-class by offering pay-offs to those who are lower wage earners and welfare recipients.

    Civic Engagement Non-Profit Director (abaa8f)

  82. Hey, when I read comment slike this:

    “…he made a documentary studying these young “gorillas in the mist.”…”

    I call upon JD and everyone else to denounce this racist comment!

    Seriously, can you imagine the uproar if anyone ever described folks on the Left in those words?

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  83. Sad but true, Dana.

    What is even sadder is how BOTH sides like voters who don’t think, but just check off the appropriate boxes with “R”s or “D”s.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  84. Dear Dave and Thomas.

    I ain’t touching the “swallow” line.

    But yes, good call. I hang my head in Python shame.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  85. Eric, I have to refer you to this Jonah Goldberg article about “conservatives in the mist” to explain my usage.

    Civic Engagement Non-Profit Director (abaa8f)

  86. Republican moderates should study the fate of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, which is now extinct. That party was moderate on social issues, and moderate on fiscal matters, and held a majority in Parliament many times. But in the 1993 elections, they went from 169 seats in the chamber (out of 295 total seats ) to 2 seats. Meanwhile, the new Reform party, both socially and fiscally conservative, won 52 seats.

    Eventually, the Reform party changed their name to the Alliance, and merged with the remnants of the PCP to form the Conservative Party of Canada, one of whose members is the current Prime Minister, Stephen Harper.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  87. You cite David Brooks as an authority? Yikes.

    Who are you talking to? I disagree with him in this post.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  88. Well, we’ve been totally destroyed:
    “…Robert Downey Jr. found groups like the YAF so disturbing …”

    Snort, snort, sniff, sniff….

    Yeh, that’ll teach us to have standards.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  89. Just saying that in the 80s and early 90s that young conservatives had people scared enough that they made an “expose.”

    Civic Engagement Non-Profit Director (abaa8f)

  90. Just saying that RD,Jr, had such a tenuous grip on reality through much of the 80’s and 90’s, it’s amazing that he could even string together the initials “Y”, “A”, & “F”.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  91. I found the “Russia Wife” ad on the Goldberg article quite perturbing.

    Good read and accurate to a T.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  92. Our “educated class” can hardly read, don’t know where to find Alaska on a map and most don’t know what Obama did. I see man on the street interviews that are disgraceful and make you wonder why we don’t have higher standards to vote. The lady in south Florida that was so happy because now she would get free gas and a car from Obama. These people actually vote!

    The we have the elite acadamians that are so liberal and politic in the classroom. They are protected by tenure as if anyone would question their teachings.

    Professor Ayers is beyond belief. Why would he even be employed by a University in the first place. Churchill out in Colorado is another one – They infect our children with one side of a case in total disagreement with fine teaching methods.

    My opinion – we ain’t gonna win by being nice.

    McCain was a loser from the start. He was fostered on us by a lousy selection method – caucuses – and a villainous press.

    Typical Whte Person (f74f9f)

  93. Typical White Person,

    Like the rant, relevance to something in the string?

    Not saying, juss sayin’

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  94. Well, I wouldn’t suggest going in the same direction that Rush and Hannity want it to go.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-onthemedia9-2008nov09,0,800478.story

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  95. “I don’t think the future of the Republican party is to be Democrat Lite.”

    As was evidenced by this election… McCain wasn’t Conservative enough to strike a bold enough contrast to the Dems.

    I think the idea of less government is far more appealing than the current Party leadership is willing to admit….

    jana (a8071c)

  96. “…he made a documentary studying these young “gorillas in the mist.”…”

    “I call upon JD and everyone else to denounce this racist comment! Seriously, can you imagine the uproar if anyone ever described folks on the Left in those words?”

    I imagine that the guys at PETA would be up in arms.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  97. I think if Republicans cannot communicate what they believe and why it doesn’t make any difference who they are, who they target, or what they believe. If it comes to the fact that not enough people care to understand or can understand, and elections are won by the same criteria as whether people buy Coke or Pepsi, I’m not sure how long it will matter.

    Take the whole immigration thing, or voter thing. It makes absolute common sense why a country has a right to a secure border, and why people who should be able to vote can, and those who shouldn’t be allowed to vote can’t. If a party cannot make those points clear and defend them against twisted reasoning they don’t deserve to win. Having secure borders is not immigration unfriendly. If people want to come to the US for a better life then they shouldn’t mind if criminal elements, for example, are not allowed in too.

    Do you want to form a political party with the primary purpose being winning, or a political party that stands on core convictions and can communicate and persuade in order to win and govern by those principles?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  98. tnj @95 – I didn’t see the anger the LA Times mentioned. Where is it?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  99. See Patterico?
    Magical thinkin’.
    All the socon “killer apps” like anti-gay and anti-choice are hateful deathpoison to the youth vote.
    Plus the youth vote thinks Palin is a retard. The Urban dictionary definition, not the clinical one.
    The best thing is run Palin 2008, get the poison out of the system.
    These people here aren’t going to believe what a disaster she is until she actually flames out.
    Toss her the reins.
    It will be much quicker and far less painful.

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  100. “Plus the youth vote thinks Palin is a retard”

    … I think the feeling is mutual. I think most young people are retarded. Let me give you “unretard” self-help steps

    1) Move out of anything your parents own
    2) Pay all your own bills with your own job
    3) Stop taking drugs gratuitously
    4) Get married or “Civil Unioned”
    5) Raise a family
    6) Be faithful to them

    Somewhere between 2 and 3 your Liber-tardation will wear off by Step 6 your are a Conservative

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  101. PS- When I first heard Bush talk about “Compassionate Conservatism” I thought he was going to communicate how conservative principles are compassionate- that lower taxes grow the economy, people have jobs, and government takes in more as well; that well intentioned social programs have often had unintended consequences that make things worse, and we need to get beyond what we think sounds nice and instead look at the realities; that a strong military is a deterrent to war, and early intervention may be better for all in the long run than waiting until things fall apart, etc., etc.

    There is a difference between being “nice” and being “good”. Dems have the edge (not sure why) of being the “nice people” who “care about others”. The Repubs should not try to show “we’re nice too”, but “we’re good and we’re right”. (Of course that is not to say that the Republican or Democratic party is completely right or wrong, but where the positions are say so.)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  102. i Indeed, leftists on most campuses are so afraid of being challenged that it’s extremely difficult to get them to debate right-wingers.

    They absolutely will not engage. Instead they hurl insult, bully and name call, using every vulgarity that comes to mind. This is done specifically to silence, ward off or shut down any challenge to their position.

    Everything, any criticism, of anyone whatsoever, is called “racist”-whether it is cultural or religious, or whatever.
    It’s like hitting a brick wall.

    Hyperbole is their middle name.

    Anyway,thanks for the link to Goldberg.

    Patricia Burke (8efa66)

  103. wheelers_cat — 11/11/2008 @ 6:01 pm

    When I was young and naive I voted for Carter. I grew out of it, just as Churchill said I would.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  104. 95% of the people who are pro-choice are so for 1 of 2 reasons

    1) They like to have un-protected sex (probably several times) with people they don’t like enough to marry and don’t want any consequences other than any occasional itch.

    2) They don’t think the life of an infant is worth much and think killing it is OK so long as you don’t have “feelings” for it.

    OT: When I first found out my wife was pregnant I said “we are having a baby!” Kind of funny how the concept of a life begins so soon and so simply. I think the debate by the pro-death movement is sick — one think is the morning after pill and another is abortion. Good almight what soul-less ghouls.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  105. i Indeed, leftists on most campuses are so afraid of being challenged that it’s extremely difficult to get them to debate right-wingers.

    They absolutely will not engage. Instead they hurl insult, bully and name call, using every vulgarity that comes to mind. This is done specifically to silence, ward off or shut down any challenge to their position.

    Everything, any criticism, of anyone whatsoever, is called “racist”-whether it is cultural or religious, or whatever.
    It’s like hitting a brick wall.

    Hyperbole is their middle name.

    Anyway,thanks for the link to Goldberg.

    Comment by Patricia Burke — 11/11/2008 @ 6:12 pm

    That is funny, because I have tried to debate a few issues on this site and with two exceptions I had insults and name-calling galore thrown at me. To suggest that the left is the only group who can’t seem to debate is a bit myopic.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  106. “we are having a baby!”

    I notice you did not say “we have a baby”.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  107. Plus the youth vote thinks Palin is a retard. The Urban dictionary definition, not the clinical one.

    To hurl an insult like that at a woman who has a Down’s Syndrome infant is lower than low, and it tells us a lot about what type of person you really are.

    JVW (4a6382)

  108. Truth in Justice,

    I could take your comment for 1 of 2 things so let me go by the innocent side … we have a family. Healthy thank god.

    No abortions. Quite happy. Quite rich. Quite minority.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  109. … I should add Truth … born dirt poor and blessed with parents who never took a hand out they could have and taught us to work our arses off and never use “racism” (which does exist) as a cop out for failure and mediocrity.

    God Bless America.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  110. dur, read the Urban Dictionary.
    retard just means stupid to young people.
    see?
    terminally out of touch.

    Here’s my prediction, Patterico.
    Palin is going to run for 2012.
    I predict she will be the nominee.
    The party is lurching right, returning to fundamentalism, she has control of the base, and the donors, she doesn’t think its her fault they lost…..it was Bush’s fault!!!!!
    lol.
    Just try and stop her.
    She wants it, sand she has already started running.
    Frankenbarbie indeed.
    Kristol and NRO have created a monster.
    😉
    yay!
    I get to watch you guys punch yourselves in the face for 4 more years.
    then after she flames out, mebbe you will get it.

    wheelers_cat (98fa0c)

  111. truthnjustice @106 – If you call attempting to debate starting out from a position of falsehoods, misinformation, and strawmen, that is not really what most people would call debating in good faith. Most of the points you raise here fall into that category, which is why you are not taken seriously.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  112. The thing about avoiding nice is that really smart folks like Anne Coulter have undermined themselves with independants and others because those folks don’t get her and now will never give her any benefit of the doubt-they regard her as the queen of snark.

    Her shock therapy is no longer effective and, unfortunately,she might have bcome a detriment in some ways. I think that is too bad.

    Patricia Burke (8efa66)

  113. Wheeler,

    Retard always meant stupid when used colloquially.

    Only a retard (if the shoe fits) would need an “Urban” Dictionary to know that.

    OT: Urban Dictionary? What, do you volunteer at soup kitchen on Thanksgiving to atone for your undeserved, frivolous, meaningless boo-gee lifestyle?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  114. A slur is a slur, and you don’t get to exculpate yourself by playing the youth card. You are without a doubt a bitter, mean-spirited person who is bound to have a very unhappy life. I suppose I should feel sorry for you, but truthfully I just think you are an ass.

    JVW (4a6382)

  115. “Her shock therapy is no longer effective and, unfortunately,she might have bcome a detriment in some ways. I think that is too bad.”

    Patricia – I agree. If you understand what she is trying to do and get beyond the hyperbole, I found her books to be quite good. There is a reason they were No. 1 bestsellers. Most liberals like to condemn her without reading her work.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  116. Patricia Burke, you make good points in both your comments.

    They absolutely will not engage. Instead they hurl insult, bully and name call, using every vulgarity that comes to mind. This is done specifically to silence, ward off or shut down any challenge to their position.

    Often I’m not convinced they know what their position is – yes, they can give the company line but not explain how they arrived at that conclusion. Very reactionary and a tremendous amount of emotionalism, which always makes me suspcicious.

    Re Coulter: I don’t know that its so much people not getting her or that she is immediately off-putting with an in-your-face condescencion that she loses people well before her point is made. I know that’s how she lost me. I just disliked the rudeness and no longer care what she thinks.

    Dana (79a78b)

  117. Four years is a long time. Palin may look different in four years time and her aspirations could even change in that time as well.

    Two years of campaigning is tiresome for everyone.

    A small breather won’t hurt. Heads should be cleared prior to making decisions on which way to proceed.

    So much can happen.in the interim and I would never commit to anyone so soon.

    Patricia Burke (8efa66)

  118. Dana, so you dislike Coulter because of her style
    but not her content?

    I’ve met Coulter and she is a pompous UoM arse but her points are good ones and that is all that interests me.

    Ignoring the intellectual content of a point b/c of the person sounds like a Cocktail Party Republican or Liberal to me.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  119. I dunno wheeler,

    It occurs to me, that if the economic depression is still running full-blast in 2012, the swing to the paleo-cons could be more violent than you think. Imagine if 4 years of interventionism and nanny-statism totally fails.

    It could be a Palin/Buchanan ticket that has what it takes to win.

    Me? I’d prefer Ron Paul.

    Daniel Dare (7204e6)

  120. One of the most interesting things I’ve seen is the “buy in” the agnostic right has made into the liberal take on conservative people of faith.
    When Sarah Palin was painted as “some godbotherer” who thought dinosaurs roamed the planet 5000 years ago (or whatever the dang rumor was) some Republican agnostics could be heard wondering if it might be true. Aghast. Please.
    Sure there are still folks who have a hard time with literal interpretation of the creation story, but really. I was insulted on her behalf when half the conservative blogosphere acted like “well after all she is a biblebilly from a hick state… it could be true”
    Agnostics fell for the “banned books” list, “rape victims billed for test kits” smear, the Kenyan prayer against witch doctors (without ever finding the rural African cultural context that Pastor prays from…)
    I could go on and on.
    That people like Hitchens and Brooks and Noonan bolted for Barack shows that our party has a bunch of frontrunners who think everyone to the right of themself is a racist, a buffoon, or some godbothering fool.
    Brooks portrays Traditionalists as sitting in elite ivory tower circle jerk focus groups, when the snobbery I saw from “conservatives” was from people like Brooks and Noonan who got the vapors over what they saw as that ill bred biblehick was chosen to be the VP candidate.
    I say good riddance to anyone who would turn on conservative principles towards Obama because of Palin or the liberal bogeyman of the “religious right”.
    Conservatives need to unify under the ideals of freedom.

    Am I free to say that because of my religious beliefs that I think personal responsibility is one of the most important lynchpins in society?

    Am I free to ask that children in schools be encouraged to freely and without abuse discuss their religious views about the possibility of a creator… even in *gasp* a science class?

    Am I free to say that I am fine with gay relationships on a civic level even if my religious beliefs conflict with that… just do me a favor and just don’t sue your way into calling something marriage… put it to a vote, and if you lose do so with dignity and rewrite and reintroduce your proposition in a way that is win win…?
    Can my conservative so called allies defend and explain that I voted without HATE? Or will they run and join the opposition?
    There is nothing wrong with being loyal to gay friends and to conservatisves who disagreed.
    Just tell your gay friends “here is how to do it… give up on the word ‘marriage’ and find another way to describe what you want. Write in whatever you need to, but do throw the heterosexual families with kids a treat and recognize that even the most cursory view of evolution, gene replication, reproductive biology would favor the heterosexual family?

    SteveG (71dc6f)

  121. Comment by Robert Rodriguez — 11/11/2008 @ 7:03 pm

    In #109 you gave Tnj the benefit of the doubt as I will now give you: I don’t like people couching what may be a worthwhile and sound point in arrogant rudeness. Who do they reach? The other side has already pegged Coulter and the inflammatory tone only provokes them – not to further thought of the issue but rather, anger.

    If that’s what she’s shooting for then she’s a success. But if provoking actual discussion over a specific issue is her goal, then she might want to take another tact. (Obviously she doesn’t seem interested in that so much…)

    Since Coulter hasn’t cornered the market on conservative thought, I’m not too concerned about not listening to her.

    Now, martini?

    Dana (79a78b)

  122. I enjoyed the discussion and hope to return soon.

    Perhaps I will learn the formatting here because Jonah Goldberg was not give attribution for the quote I used in my header concerning difficulty of engagement.

    Patricia Burke (8efa66)

  123. Ann Coulter is our version of Michael Moore. I admit that I find myself laughing at some of her writing, but I recognize that she is probably a net liability for the GOP and Conservatism. Notice how the Obama and Democrat campaigns managed to stifle Mikey this election cycle?

    JVW (4a6382)

  124. Dana, that Coulter angers the other side is of little consequence to me. She is a gadfly within the conservative tent who serves a purpose — to create “paradigms” which call into question the other side’s position.

    My personal feelings aside about her, I find her thoughts very provoking and, at times, intellectually provoking. Would I pick her for Senator? No. Would I like her fighting for my side on certain issues and in certain venues? Yes.

    That bitch will tell an entire audience of bonehead academics that they are bonehead academics. Cocktail Party Republicans don’t do that type of dirty work.

    Anyway, Cocktail Republicans are what got us into this mess. They are so easily swayed by the Rodney King mantra “can’t we just get along?” How do you think we turned 1994 into 2006?

    Also, liberals are not interested in getting along or fighting fair and in an Assymetrical War usually the least conventional wins. Watching Olberscum and Erectile Mathews every night drives home that point.

    Ann Coluter’s, Hannity and Newt’s are needed. Think of them as the pep squad for the football team — not the flunkies who do stupid cheers.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  125. JVW,

    If you don’t think Michael Moore is a positive impact for Democrats you need to look again. There are lots of people who take his movies to be facts and real.

    You confuse how Conservatives look at Moore — a liability for them because we hate them more — as opposed to how democrats or independents look at him — a provacative thinker with some great points about the failures of capitalism.

    To quote an immortal Howard Stern flunkie — “Wake up white people.”

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  126. “Now, martini?”

    Anytime, anywhere.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  127. I’ll take Blue with an ice cube and contraband cigars from Cuba, preferably Trinidad.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  128. Personally, I like brandy. Sounds good, gentlemen and ladies.

    When I read nonsense like:

    “…retard just means stupid to young people….”

    First, I think great! We “old” people get to define words however we like, and use those words without fear from young people—after all, we are just expressing ourselves. Right?

    Once again, you are just trolling, Kate.

    Second. I have taught college for a number of years, and any undergraduate who used that word in conversation on campus would be thought to be, well, unsophisticated. Because they would be unsophisticated, and intellectually lazy.

    And if you think that is all formal, I recommend you use some slang referring to race on campus. You are just expressing yourself, right? And contra Chomsky, words don’t mean anything outside one’s intent, right?

    What you are doing is cherry picking terminology you prefer, all in the same direction— justification of yourself and your actions, all the while being pretty dismissive or critical of the behavior of others.

    Ego, ego, uber alles.

    It’s clear that you post in an effort to be what you think is provocative. What it is, given your age, is sad and insular.

    Speaking as someone who teaches college…and who has children who require tuition payments…I recommend that you spend your time more productively.

    Like not insulting people. I doubt you study much. Which is fine. Your choice.

    But it kind of makes your elitist and superior tone a bit of a mystery. It makes me think of people trying to sound like something that they are not.

    I could be wrong, of course. You might be a rocket scientist with great prospects and an incisive mind ranging over a broad category of the liberal arts and sciences.

    Or you could be a troll, who just posts to pick fights and feel all strong. Or a person who has been banned from well over a dozen blogs for being a troll. Oh, right, you admitted to that.

    So knock off the insulting, and try to discuss things civilly. I learn a great deal from some of the left of center posters here, as well as the folks who are to the right of me.

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  129. “Ann Coulter is our version of Michael Moore.”

    JVW – Wrong. Michael Moore is a liar and virtually always wrong.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  130. “Or you could be a troll, who just posts to pick fights and feel all strong.”

    Eric – We have a winner. Pick up your free, one month subscription to Patterico’s Pontifications before you leave.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  131. You know, daley, I just need to not respond to trolls. This one is pretty obvious. I guess I just have to sit and listen to this kind of thing in my seminars pretty often, so I am sensitized.

    The good news is that I get to grade the ones at work.

    And you should all thank me: some of the ones I deal with want to be physicians. I keep them honest and hard working.

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  132. Comment by Eric Blair — 11/11/2008 @ 8:58 pm

    Eric, a question:
    In your professional life, do you grade against a standard (ie, 70%=C), or do you grade on a curve?

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  133. Palin or none

    EricPWJohnson (cc9286)

  134. Hi AD:

    Me? I use straight percentages. Part of my preference is prejudice, and part pedagogical. I did my undergraduate work at a huge university with curved exams. I once scored 144/150 on a final exam and received a “B” because of curving (and yes, the professor messed up: he literally used the previous year’s exam, verbatim, from which we had all studied).

    There was a lot of competition among students as well, and the “straight percentages” removed any incentive for sociopathic behavior among students.

    I don’t believe in using curves. I think (my opinion only) that a test with a “bad” average (93% is an A, 90 – 93% is an A-, etc. Me, I like the 90 – 80 – 70 cut off.

    Students never believe that professors agonize over writing their exams. Maybe some don’t, but I do. It’s revenge, I tell them, since they have to take the exam…we have to write and grade it!

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  135. Eric B. – You ain’t seen nothing from nishi yet. She has been remarkably restrained so far based on prior behavior. I think she’s running out of refuges willing to let her comment so she’s trying to control her impulses. It’s either that or she’s gone on some heavy duty medication.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  136. Here’s the message I sent to the Republican National Committee today:

    “I’m an unhappy, disgusted, angry Republican! It’s bad enough living in California (my neighborhood was, and still is, a sea of Obama signs), but watching my party lose the Presidential election along with more House and Senate losses, I’ve had just about all I can take. Here are a few thoughts about what needs to be done.

    The seeds of these election losses were sown by the White House’s refusal to defend itself from Democratic and media attacks during the eight years of the Bush presidency.

    Distortions and lies repeated over and over again in newspapers and on television become accepted as fact when no one takes the time to refute them. I simply can’t understand why Republicans did not fight back in the face of these attacks. We don’t seem to have the passion required for political battle.

    The Mainstream Media do not respect our ideas or our politics, and no amount of being deferential to them will change that.

    I haven’t watched local or national TV news in more than 20 years. I canceled my Los Angeles Times subscription a few weeks before the election because I could no longer stomach the outright lies that they are peddling to their readers. I wrote the Editor and the Readers’ Representative and told them exactly why I was canceling. I received no response.

    Republicans need to change the way we deal with the media. We don’t have to be mean-spirited, but we do need to be passionate and dogged in fighting back against the lies and distortions. Believe me, there are many, many people like me across the country who are waiting for someone in the Party to provide leadership on this issue. As indicated in many recent polls, the American people know the media are biased. Why doesn’t someone in the Republican Party speak up? Fighting media distortions is one effort that I guarantee will energize Republicans across the country.

    Are there are any Republicans that have the necessary charisma and speaking ability to provide the visible leadership we need?

    Why can’t we have a David Cameron here in the US? Is there no one who can stand in front of a camera or microphone and clearly describe our goals and ideas in terms that people understand and identify with? Our road back will be very long indeed unless we have that kind of visible leadership.

    Stop compromising Republican principles by cooperating unnecessarily with the Democrats!

    The Senate deal on judicial nominations was an absolute surrender! Why do we do this? When the Democrats are in the minority, do we see them bending over backwards to cooperate with Republicans? Of course not! Being in the minority doesn’t require surrender!

    Use the internet to the fullest extent possible.

    Millions of people (like me) go to the internet for news reports and political analysis. Republicans need to do a better job of using the internet to reach these people. I think websites provide an excellent base for fighting Democrat/media lies. As one example, single-issue websites could be established that provide ongoing reports and discussion about the issue at hand.

    Take on the issue of voter fraud!

    In a sense, we were lucky that this year’s presidential contest was not that close, so that fraud could not be held responsible for electing the wrong candidate. However, I don’t think there is any doubt that voter fraud is a growing problem, and it clearly benefits the Democrats immensely. One poll I saw just before the election indicated that 44% of voters believed that fraud is a significant problem.

    Please do not allow this issue to die! This needs to be fought and fought hard if we intend to regain majority party status in the near future. Once again, passion is required for success.

    Sarah Palin has a lot of potential…what is the best role for her on the national level?

    I don’t have the answer for this, but I think it is an important question. I can’t recall a Republican other than her for whom I felt such an immediate liking. I grew up in a small town, and her ideas and demeanor really struck a chord with me, and I know I’m not alone in that reaction. She’s a potential national star for us, and I hope that we will tap in to that potential.

    Herrina (298ede)

  137. Eric, thanks for the answer. I have no idea why I asked that question, it just popped into my head; or, it was prompted by one of your comments about grading papers. Don’t know.
    I can say with certainty, it has been along time since I cracked a blue-book, and I don’t see my feet trodding the campus square again.
    From your descriptions, and reacting here with some of our under-grad trolls, being on campus would probably be just a way-stop to incarceration for advanced mayhem.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  138. Well, daley, when I found out that the trollbot was in fact an undergraduate, much became clear to me. Seriously, the book “Generation Me” tells it all. What I find most ironic about those kinds of people (and she may be one of them, I don’t know) is the intellectual hypocrisy: they want to “tell it like it is” yet insist that others show great sensitivity to their own sacred cows.

    It costs them little to be civil, but for some reason that is not a viable option…yet they usually do insist from civility from others.

    AD, not every student is all that bad. There are lots of good ones. And we as a society have not done well by them.

    In a recent set of evaluations, I received a weird comment, among the superficial compliments and brickbats.

    “Professor Blair presents material in class that wasn’t on the exams.”

    Well, sure. The point of a test is to spot check learning. So I wondered where that attitude came from. The answer: middle and high schoo, where the curriculum is about the test.

    Sigh.

    I have trouble posting links, but here is one that will make you smile, and irritates students endlessly (though the advice is spot on).

    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/nosymp.htm

    Worth your time, I promise.

    Finally, you know what kinds of students excel, in my experience? Veterans, returning to college. Like one said to me, “Weird profs? Listen, I have seen worse overseas. And they had guns.”

    Happy Veterans’ Day, all…

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  139. “Professor Blair presents material in class that wasn’t on the exams.”

    Absolutely hilarious!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  140. –Comment by Eric Blair — 11/11/2008 @ 11:28 pm

    Professor Blair, I am a veteran who recently decided to get my undergraduate degree (well into my forty’s), and succeeded.

    Quick story:
    US History class; we had just received our graded exams and the professor was upset. Only two people scored well on the exam—myself and an exchange student from CHINA! The forty-year old guy and the exchange student from China, just outscored (by a considerable margin) brand new high school graduates (I am not the smartest guy in the world).

    Not sure if I should laugh or cry.

    Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9)

  141. “Ann Coulter is our version of Michael Moore.”

    JVW – Wrong. Michael Moore is a liar and virtually always wrong.

    So is Ann Coulter.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  142. truthnjustice @106 – If you call attempting to debate starting out from a position of falsehoods, misinformation, and strawmen, that is not really what most people would call debating in good faith. Most of the points you raise here fall into that category, which is why you are not taken seriously.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/11/2008 @ 6:50 pm

    So you are calling scientifically based research ‘falsehoods’ now? Do you happen to be one of those 6,000 year old Earth guys?

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  143. Oh man, guys. I was such a big Coulter fan but then I found this:

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200608070002

    I am so disappointed. I thought she was a straight shooter. Shoot.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  144. Yeah, I’m sure there has ever been a single, living, breathing human on the planet who was simultaneously (1) a “big fan” of Ann Coulter, and (2) a naive moonbat who takes anything “Media Matters” says seriously.

    Back to moby school with you, truthnjustice.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  145. Ha. So Ann Coulter gets a free pass because anybody who discredits her must be misinformed, by definition? Where do I get one of those passes? Sounds to me like the “I’m rubber, you’re glue” defense. Very nice, X, and mature too!

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  146. How do you cut taxes at a time of large budget deficits without vastly exacerbating those deficits?
    News flash; it’s spending that causes deficits, not lack of income. How do you cut government by 25%? Here are some ideas:
    – Zero based budgeting
    – Force every federal government employee to justify his/her existence on the public dole
    – Eliminate the Depts. of Education, Energy, Homeland Security
    …and as an extra added bonus, to highlight how much Uncle Same takes out of everyone’s paycheck, ELIMINATE WITHOLDING. It is the single most insidious way government shouts ‘look over there’ when grabbing your hard earned money. If every taxpayer had to write a check each month for what they owe in taxes, the mobs storming the Capitol with torches would stretch as far as the eye can see.

    Tomorrow, the federal government could demand that every single department and agency reduce their workforce by 10%, and nobody would miss any of them.

    Bob C (770ab9)

  147. tmj – The idea that you were a Coulter fan is farsical. It is not even creative fiction. But reading your lies is about as surprising as you calling someone a racist homoerotic clown.

    JD (94c827)

  148. That is funny, because I have tried to debate a few issues on this site and with two exceptions I had insults and name-calling galore thrown at me.

    Why would a racist homoerotic clown wish to engage in any type of substantive debate with you?

    JD (94c827)

  149. #147 Bob C:

    …and as an extra added bonus, to highlight how much Uncle Same takes out of everyone’s

    pocket.

    Get rid of the silly ass useless nutrition labels on foodstuffs and replace it with tax awareness labels showing every level of taxation that went into the product. And not just on food.

    EW1(SG) (da07da)

  150. Truthnjustice needs to get mugged and see his first paycheck disappear.

    Or better yet, fail to get admission into graduate school and then see that 40% of the Class is Black or Hispanic though thye rpresent only 5% of College Graduates.

    (* I was probably one of those beneficiaries my I add you and definately my wife! *)

    Then, we can all laugh togther. Schadenfreude forever!

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  151. Time to get back to common sense and not steadfast in ideology. One issue we could embrace in order to control the debt would be to withdraw US Troops from Europe some 63 years after World War 2. Do we really need to keep such a force in Europe?

    Another issue I would like to see the right wing go after is the blind US support for Israel. We have angered 1.2 Billion Muslims for the sake of 6 Million Jews in Israel. Is this in our nations best interest? Yes I know we like to paint all Muslims are crazed Islamonuts but they aren’t. Pakistan elected a female who actually wore makeup and jewelry once. Her name was Benazir Bhutto. The US Bashed Sarah Palin with sexist attacks. So are we any better? The fanatical Muslims will always hate us but the vast majority of moderate Muslims hate us because of Israel and now the choice of Rahm Emanuel will only make things worse. Does the Israel Issue help us with the Jewish Vote? I believe the Jewish vote went for Obama by 70% or so. Time to stop being schmucks.

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  152. Dennis D – Could I subscribe to your newsletter?

    JD (94c827)

  153. Dennis D, as James Baker (God Bless his arrogant, elitist soul) once said in response to a question about the Jews … “f*** the Jews, they don’t vote for us anyway.” (Which was misinterpreted by the media to line up votes for Democrats by position Repub as hate mongers and bigots.)

    I agree our mideast policy is ridiculously slanted. Both Democrats and Republicans have particpated in this silliness. Many for campaign contribution reasons and also to avoid media pouding.

    Even The One had to flip-flop his positions on Israel in order to line-up his super delegates and get the NYT to push him over the line in the primaries. Rahm Emanuel is further proof — I mean dude, IDF Volunteer??????????

    If we spent half as much money and energy on “weak democracies” that happen to be Arab/Muslim it would help IN THE LONG RUN. No arms though — not that confident in them.

    …. and that is I am no big fan of the arabists in the regions either.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  154. The alignment with Israel was not started to win the miniscule Jewish vote in the US. However, that alignment does a great job in helping us find, identify, and ridicule the anti-Semites in the US and in the comments section of blogs.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  155. OIDO, that is a laughable and mentally weak response. That paragraph reminds me of when folks scream racism after you critique Obama.

    We (as policy) support Israel for the simple reason is we have a disporportionate amount of Jews in position of authority from academia to business to government. And almost UNIVERSALLY they support Israel in every sense of the word and in the most reactionary of ways.

    Sorry, but facts are facts.

    Now, let me add, congratulations to an ethnic group who managed to understand the value of education, of supporting their community and of having high expectations for their children. Kudos.

    No need to smear me for something I am not but any day you want to have this discussion send me an email. More than happy and unafraid to do so.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  156. We (as policy) support Israel for the simple reason is we have a disporportionate amount of Jews in position of authority from academia to business to government.

    It has nothing to do with Israel being a modern, free nation in the midst of sea of barbarians as intent on our subjugation as they are on the murder of every Israeli.

    Nope. Not at all.

    Rob Crawford (04f50f)

  157. We (as policy) support Israel for the simple reason is we have a disporportionate amount of Jews in position of authority from academia to business to government.

    Because of the Jooooooooooooooooooooooooos. What’s next, the Zionist Conspiracy?

    JD (94c827)

  158. “Disproportionate” ever since the Czarist-era fraud called The Protocol of the Elders of Zion made that assertion, of course. Your views are very ugly, Rodriguez, and we can’t just write it off as something you casually heard at a !RonPaul! meetup.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  159. Rob, the fallacies in your argument are fascinating

    1) We are talking a historical point — not a post 9-11 one. History was not invented on 9-11.

    2) There are *GASP* muslim countries which are free democracies that support us …. hello Turkey … but have soured on us due to their perceptions of us.

    3) Historically the Arab world was very Pro US. We lost it somewhere between Eisenhower and Nixon.

    4) What does the barbarity of certain Mid-East countries have to do with our reflexive support of Israel for the better half of the last 35 years??? So if I don’t support everything Israel I support terrorist and barbarians?????

    5) Go to Israel and live/work there. A little more complicated than you may imagine …. even by Israeli standard. In fact many would agree with the points I made.

    I remember studying history and reading about Jewish terrorists killing British Soldiers and carving up large parts of modern day Israel using force and intimidation ….. all under the guide of Zionism and wayyyyyy before WWII.

    So … come again. We need to support Israel’s right to exist. Period. Does that mean we go to war to protect Israel? Does that mean we dole out $6 billion per year? Deos that mean we not question what the Israeli Cabinet is doing with our implicit military support?

    I dunno, complicated questions but worth exploring without being called an Anti-Semite.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  160. Ad Hominem attacks. Not one discussion on policy. Is this the Daily Kos?

    But yes, much our our Israeli support is reflexive and driven by elites in gov.t, academia and business.

    Your reactions only proves the point.

    Anti-Semite, funny. Must be the only anti-semitic sephardim I have ever met.

    I guess I should go volunteer to protect another country instead of volunteering for my own. Too funny.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  161. You repeat all the talking points of Jew-hating scum, Rodriguez, so people will start to draw certain conclusions. Your basic thesis is that if the US hated Jews like the Arabs do, the world would be a safer place. To repeat, your views are ugly.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  162. Official Internet, you just made up the whole argument, and as yet, made one counter-point.

    You are no different than folks who reflexively call anyone racist when they say something critical of blacks.

    Intellectual mediocrity from a right wing SLEZEY SMEAR MERCHANT. Shame on you.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  163. OIDO, in fact, what are my views you talk off?

    I am still perplexed by that comment.

    Learn to read my threads b/f shooting off at the mouth like some rabid dog.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  164. Where should the Republican party go now? Back to the drawing table. And let them get all available clips on Obama’s campaign. For close study. That’s a good place to start. Never blame your opponent for your failure. Blame yourself.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  165. Love2008, we agree finally. We need more style, less substance and a pretty head to deliver it IF WE WANT TO WIN.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  166. OIDO, do you even know what a sephardim is?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  167. But yes, much our our Israeli support is reflexive and driven by elites in gov.t, academia and business.

    This is the part of your argument that we seem to be taking exception to.

    Maybe we do not stand idly by on the sidelines when one of our most trusted allies attempts to defend itself. In fact, Israel is far more restrained than we would ever be.

    JD (94c827)

  168. lovie is an idiot.

    JD (94c827)

  169. JD,

    Again, I understand everythign you are saying and I agree but you do understand most of this support is relexive and it is driven by elites who happen to be Jewish.

    Go to friggin Israel, get to know one of “us,” live it. Jews here in the US are more pro-Israel then Jews in Israel. They also are universal, except for a few brothas in Rockland County and Brooklyn, blinding pro-anything the Knesset does.

    It reminds me of third/fourth generation Irsh and Italians who behave more “ethnic” then the very people in Ireland or Italy. When real Irish or Italians see them they go “WTF?”

    BTW, this is a socilogical phenomenon I describe to immigrants and ethnics.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  170. Again, I understand everythign you are saying and I agree but you do understand most of this support is relexive and it is driven by elites who happen to be Jewish.

    How does my belief belong to the Zionist elites? Rob’s beliefs?

    I have been to Tel Aviv x2, so this idea that you cannot know anything about something unless you have been there is kind of BS. It smells like the BS the Left throws about that the Right does not travel, and is unaware of other cultures.

    JD (94c827)

  171. Let me also be clear ………

    Just like I don’t blame the Europeans for screwing the Indians, I also don’t blame Israelis for carving out the country through sheer brute force. It is what is. Might makes right and winners write the history books BUT I SUSPECT ….

    If American Indians started bombing military and government installations, forcibly moving communites off “their land” under the guise this was “The Land God Gave Them.” We would get howls of protest over it.

    You think the claims American Indians have are any different than those used to establish a Jewish State post WWII?

    Hello Reality!

    Sometimes you have to accept hypocrisy and the use of brute in the face of achieving a great good. Israel is an excellent thing but not everything she does. Folks on this side of the ocean don’t get it.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  172. Again, I understand everythign you are saying and I agree but you do understand most of this support is relexive and it is driven by elites who happen to be Jewish.

    They highlighted part suggests that your professed understanding is lacking.

    JD (94c827)

  173. OK JD, you are missing the point.

    Stop using idiotic words like Zionist and all that other jibberish. Those are loaded words which have nothing to do with what I am saying.

    Fact is we need a fresh look at how we handle the Middle East and if that means scaling back vis-avis Israel I have no issue with it so long as a)the Crazies are still being killed and b) we listen to our Arab frems who do have democracies and good enough intentions.

    But hey, relexive means never having to think.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  174. Why do you assume that yours is the only non-reflexive opinion?

    What makes you think that I have never contemplated my views on the USA’s support of Israel?

    How does my belief belong to the Jewish elites in government, academia, and business?

    JD (94c827)

  175. JD, really?

    What are you going to trot out certain religous right to say there are goiam elite who support Israel?

    Uh, OK. This is like saying moderate democrats are the propellor to Obama’s airplane — um no, the DRIVERS of his ascendancy was NUT ROOTS.

    The positions our gov.t has are driven by many Israeli patriots who worked and endured lots to establish a voice in our government.

    I guess you have to be Jewish to see it.

    OT: Do you know what Sephardim is?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  176. Fact is we need a fresh look at how we handle the Middle East

    Fair enough. Let’s start with Hamas and Hezbollah, and let’s throw in Iran for fun. How do you negotiate with someone whose has a self-professed goal of the annihilation of Israel? Do we negotiate for only a partial annihilation of Israel?

    JD (94c827)

  177. JD the DRIVER is likely not you. Never has been. Welcome to the halls of power and influence. Some guys set opinion and other accept it.

    On this issue, you, and dare I say 99% of goiam, are followers and not a leaders. That is my point here. The leaders of the Pro-Israel movement are patriots who have used all means necessary to get a small desert country a seat at the table of the most powerful country in the world.

    Hello reality.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  178. JD, I kill them all. Family included.

    Next issue?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  179. I do know what a Sephardim is, though I fail to see how my knowledge of that term, or lack thereof, has to do with my ability to form my own opinions on the topic.

    It is my understanding that Sephardim refers to a lineage of Judaism from Spain, Portugal, etc … It is also my understanding that it can reference different style of liturgical practice, but I could be wrong with that.

    JD (94c827)

  180. I also start actively funding those opposed to Islamo-facist even if they are reflexively anti-Israel.

    Problem with your position is you will not find a FRIEND in the Middle East who is pro-Israel. They don’t exist.

    What you can find in the middle est are folks who are ANTI Islamo Fascist and if they are at least this smart might be convinced if the US did something to get them there.

    Not sure this nuanced point is understood by what Pat Buchanan rightfully called Amen Corner.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  181. Robert Rodriguez – We are going to agree to disagree. I enjoy your comments too much to get in a pissing match with you over how one arrives at their own opinions. We have differing perspectives, but in the end, suspect that we would pull on the same end of the rope. We have had enough arguing amongst right thinkers over the last couple years, so I will do my part to bring a little unity round these here parts.

    JD (94c827)

  182. 177, do you know what Askenazi is?

    PCD (7fe637)

  183. OK, so how can a Sephardim be Anti-Semetic?

    Which is what you and others allege I am due to your ignorance and RELEXIVE approach to labeling dissent.

    Hmmmmmmmm?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  184. Why do you assume that we are Amen Corner? Or something even more annoying, that we could not understand such a nuanced position?

    JD (94c827)

  185. lovie is an idiot.

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 7:37 am
    10 days ago, I would have been angry. But now, I am very forgiving. WE WON! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AH HA HA HA HA! LOOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!
    Okay. I promise not to do that again.
    …………….Excuse me.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  186. 183, sorry, spelled it wrong, Ashkenazi.

    PCD (7fe637)

  187. Askenazi, the blond ones. We are the dirty dark ones.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  188. Did I say you were anti-Semetic? I will thank you sir to argue with my points.

    JD (94c827)

  189. JD, I disagree. One of the legacies of William F. Buckley was to chastise, and ostracize the anti-Semites and Birchers out of the conservative movement. It looks like he missed one.

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  190. OIDO – I do not think he is an anti-Semite. YMMV.

    JD (94c827)

  191. JD,

    I dunno. Check your thread … comments like this are oft-putting.

    It smells like the BS the Left throws about that the Right does not travel, and is unaware of other cultures.

    I was not commenting on anything but Isarel yet you managed to generalize it to a large, irrelevant point.

    And BTW, traveling twice to Israel while a good start does not mean you know much about Israelis or the belief inherent in Zionism.

    Frankly if you read lots of Zionist “stuff” you might actually get a little upset if you an open minded pluralist.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  192. No but your ally OIDO (your Rev Wright I guess) did so and you come at it similarly so I may be incorrectly assuming.

    YMMV?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  193. I was pointing out that one need not go to Israel to make an informed opinion. I did run with that a bit, becasue it seemed to tie closely to another particularly bogus meme that the Left pushes. Regardless, we are going to agree to disagree.

    Plus, lovie is an idiot.

    JD (94c827)

  194. Buckley, another Cocktail Lounge Conservative. Son did not fall too far from the tree.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  195. Actually, the Sephardics I know have red hair, freckles, Spanish surnames and Turkish citizenship. Also, a blond, blue-eyed lady with a Sepahrdic husband and son told me if you’re Jewish and anywhere from the Mediteranean, you’re Sephardic.

    nk (87c95e)

  196. You were incorrectly assuming. I said no such thing. I do not pull punches. Had I wished to say that, I would have typed it.

    JD (94c827)

  197. JD, you are right that to have a position on an issue you do not need first hand experience … but it helps one avoid the logical fallacies presented by counter-parties.

    Again, my point is Israelis are less “Zionist” then Jews here in the states and much more nuanced and considerate of the following statement “The US Needs to Rethink the Middle East and that includes its implicit support of Israel.”

    We can disagree how we got here but the fact is we are …………..

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  198. NK, partly correct. Plenty of Askenazi Jews in Israel (Mediterranean) and yes all shapes and sizes but in general one group is darker and the other lighter.

    Turkey has lots of Sephardim — it was hot spot after the Spaniards did their thing. Before that, they went to Spain during the Moorish conquest and stayed for about 700 years. Interesting history.

    Also proud to say, Sephardim represented the majority of original zionist fighters in Israel during the 1800s and 1900s.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  199. JD, you did put YMMV after the definitive statement right?

    OIDO – I do not think he is an anti-Semite. YMMV.

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 8:13 am

    Two ways of interpreting the YMMV. Either intepreted as “sort of” or “just a different way of thinking.”

    The ambiguity is yours to clarify.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  200. Back on topic please. Where should the Republican Party go now? They should go back to the being true Republicans. They should go back and study why Reagan was so successful in reaching across the aisle and attracting Democrats and Independents. That was the party that won the presidency twice with Ronald Reagan and again with George Bush Snr. Three straight tenures.
    Yes, go back to your first love and repent from where you have fallen.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  201. 188, Robert, a bit of self-loathing in your answer.

    FYI, my High School sweetie was Ashkenazi. My Uncle wanted Hebrew lessons from her before his trip to Israel.

    I don’t discriminate between Ashkenazi and Sephardim. I most definitely researched Israel, Zionism, Pan-Arabism, the Kibbutz movement, and other issues when I was considering emigrating TO Israel after High School.

    The distinctions I make are between the stupid who don’t learn from the past and the ones who realize that they have no friends on their borders.

    Robert, Ever sit at the base of the Golan Heights? Ever wonder what the Syrians would do if allowed to have that strategic high point again? If you don’t, how about I sit up there with a rifle and you below. If you don’t get it, you never will.

    PCD (7fe637)

  202. 201, Lovey, you are worse than an idiot. Calling you an idiot, insults all idiots. They can’t help themselves, YOU can, but won’t.

    PCD (7fe637)

  203. PCD, the tag of self loathing is self serving.

    This coming from a guy who feels we should take the West Bank and integrate it. Feels Jerusalem is one and wants Israel to take out the Iranian reactors.

    Let me start with one tiny issue that our reflexive brothas would have a problem with: either Israeli or US Citizen — not both and not legally.

    Real self loathing there. Oy. Intellectual fleas exist on the right and the left.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  204. Comment by Eric Blair — 11/11/2008 @ 11:28 pm
    Finally, you know what kinds of students excel, in my experience? Veterans, returning to college. Like one said to me, “Weird profs? Listen, I have seen worse overseas. And they had guns.”

    Yes, I agree. Though my experience might not be typical, it is illustrative in that I left college in my second year to do a hitch in the USAF, and then went back.
    You do have a different perspective.
    From that, I have thought – and publicly advocated to no avail – that colleges and universities should require all incoming freshmen to have a couple years of experience in the real world between HS & college. It would focus their energies.
    In my case, a difficulty that I ran up against that was just too much to cope with, was my upper-division work coincided with the anti-war demonstrations that were a daily feature on my campus, plus the intransigent attitude of all those who had no real experience in the world (students, and faculty).
    So, I left, and I never looked back.
    It was a different time, not a good time, just different.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  205. Another small issue, special airplane security on US soil for non Israeli citizens.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  206. Comment by love2008 — 11/12/2008 @ 8:37 am
    Taking advice from you on what the GOP needs to do now would be like expecting etiquette lessons from V.I.Lenin – who would want it, and it wouldn’t be worth crap anyway!

    Another Drew (080b14)

  207. I do kind of giggle that David Brooks is sneering at “traditionalist” conservatives. Edmund Burke’s ghost might want to sit him down and talk to him about where the ideas of conservativism originated.

    Regarding the lack of conservative politicians living by their values: honestly, we’re expecting politicians to be brave and principled individuals? Their entire career path is based on one word, appeasement, keeping disparate factions happy enough that they still get a seat at the big money trough of government largesse and favor trading.

    I don’t invest faith in the capacity of politicians, but their complete and wonderful lack thereof. When I see the mechanism of government moving unimpeded my sphincter puckers like I was just administered a lemon juice suppository.

    This is why I see the Astrological alignment of Nancy, Harry, Barry, Barney, and Chris as such an existential danger to the American system. If there’s one thing that can completely and finally disillusion a generation, it will be the full force and power of the federal government actually doing something instead of failing at it.

    Hadlowe (1855df)

  208. Let me start with one tiny issue that our reflexive brothas would have a problem with: either Israeli or US Citizen — not both and not legally.

    Why just Israeli? US law allows dual citizenship. Why single on country out?

    Pablo (99243e)

  209. U.S. law does not allow dual citizenship. The closest we have is that it is not a renunciation of U.S. citizenship to have citizenship in another country. It’s not the same thing.

    nk (87c95e)

  210. Where the GOP ought to start is with educating the Public that driving out the rich to off shore havens is causing businesses to lay off workers if not close their US facilities. Then, go on to illustrate how when the rich don’t spend here, who loses their jobs, from middle managers to waitresses and golf caddys.

    Next, the GOP ought to be holding the Democrats to the expected ethical standards of the public. Starting with Charlie Rangel. He didn’t pay his taxes until caught. He hasn’t paid penalties and interest, nor faced prosecution. He should and the GOP ought to point out the elitism and hypocrisy of Rangel and his Democrat supporters.

    PCD (7fe637)

  211. “10 days ago, I would have been angry. But now, I am very forgiving.”

    Lovey – Good to hear. Where are your fucking apologies, bitch?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  212. Sorry, Pablo,

    To explain further, America does not want to get involved with other countries’ citizenship laws and essentially ignores the issue unless the American citizen renounces his American citizenship by a voluntary, affirmative act outside the borders of the United States.

    nk (87c95e)

  213. Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 9:14 am

    Now, daley….No reason to be mean.
    I mean, just because it’s a lying, promiscuous slut; that’s no reason to throw names about.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  214. AD – I meant it only in the spirit of forgiveness she said she was full of. I suspect she is still full of something else.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  215. 10 days ago, I would have been angry. But now, I am very forgiving. WE WON! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AH HA HA HA HA! LOOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!
    Okay. I promise not to do that again.

    – love2Bvictim

    That McCain used public funding (hint hint), NO sugar daddy, and NO fake Internet donations or Acorn, makes it pretty clear that 48 million didn’ t vote (C) for Chosen. Chosen should’ve had a landslide with his financial shenanigans and wall to wall media bias. THEE most corrupt campaign in our lifetime.

    Obviously the mother / abandonment issues have fueled his arrogance. Remember, he’s ready to ‘rule‘ now, according to Valerie Jarrett. And you voted on skin color. (!) The opposite of what this ‘historic’ campaign was supposed to promote. Post-racial, not. If you don’t believe Barry traded his megalomania for their s o c i a l i s t agenda, then the crack you’re smoking is sweeter than any Barry ever sold.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  216. NK, LOL. Way to squeeze tooth paste thru that hole.

    Fact is Dual Citizenship is perfectly OK now. It was changed in the 80s at some time b/c of the previous “exceptions” (i.e., Irish and Israeli) that where permitted.

    Effectively it was rewritten after much complaint — specifically from a Hispanic I believe — to make it such you can have many passports without renouncing ours.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  217. Charlie Rangel is a pimp. Has been for a long time. They’ll never bust Charlie.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  218. Effectively it was rewritten after much complaint

    Could you cite “it”, please?

    nk (87c95e)

  219. Wow, the rage! You guys should go see a psychiatrist. PCD, Daley, AD,VN, etc. But you know what? I forgive you all. Anger and name-calling is no way to prove sanity. What do you do with a bunch of lunatics? Hmm? Forgive them. That’s what you do. And that’s what I am doing. All is forgiven.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  220. Lovey – I’m specifically looking for apologies for your lies about the McCain Campaign. Stop dodging.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  221. nk, US law does not address dual citizenship, which is to say that it does not prohibit it, which is to say that it allows it. If you’re saying that it does not explicitly allow it, that is correct.

    Which leaves my question to Robert on the table…

    Pablo (99243e)

  222. #220

    Forgiveness is the true virtue love2008, well done.

    Don’t worry, the group you mentioned are well contained here at Patterico.

    Oiram (983921)

  223. Now, daley….No reason to be mean.
    I mean, just because it’s a lying, promiscuous slut; that’s no reason to throw names about.

    Comment by Another Drew — 11/12/2008 @ 9:17 am

    So’s your wife, obviously

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  224. Thank you, Pablo, you understood what I said. No U.S. jurisdiction will recognize foreign citizenship held by a U.S. citizen. It will only not, in the absence of anything more, use it to deprive him of his American citizenship.

    nk (87c95e)

  225. Comment by love2008 — 11/12/2008 @ 9:43 am

    You can take your foregiveness and ….

    Another Drew (080b14)

  226. P.S. And what “allow” means is what we charge $300.00/hr for. 😉

    nk (87c95e)

  227. O/T but relevant…
    The WSJ quoted Steny Hoyer, House Maj.Leader, as saying re “Paygo”:
    “We’re absolutely committed to paygo. The Speaker is committed to paygo. I’m very committed to paygo. Our caucus is committed to paygo.”
    No word on whether or not Fallah is committed to paygo?

    Another Drew (080b14)

  228. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 9:49 am

    Wow! That is so mature, for a 3rd-grader!

    Another Drew (080b14)

  229. “Anger and name-calling is no way to prove sanity.”</

    Ha. And this coming from the gang who promised to burn down every urban city should they not be given the win. Never mind the electoral process.

    That boy needs his ass dragged into court to account for mass fraudulent donations and the AVS mess. Were he a white politician, that’s exactly where he’d be. But it’s more EOE favors. And we get love, too stupid to mend as her leader urged, just here to gloat over a guy too dumb to win on his own. 2009: he’ll give just what’s needed to keep the R U L E R S above the plebes. Get used to it. He doesn’t care about you, he cares about reigning.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  230. #230

    Vermont, you somehow need to realize that the percentage of Obama supporters who promised to burn down every urban city should they not be given the win, are about the same sliver percentage of right wing religious nuts who think Obama is the Anti-Christ and end of times are near.

    In other words don’t paint a whole party by the least of it’s members.

    Oiram (983921)

  231. Vermont Neighbor,

    His record is that he is a lazy underachiever who, with two Ivy League degrees in the house, could not pay off his student loans until he was forty-five. He will be like our Shrub. Wanting to have been President but not really interested in being President. The second is hard work.

    nk (87c95e)

  232. Comment by Oiram — 11/12/2008 @ 10:03 am

    Why Not?
    You on the Left do so all the time!

    Hypocrit!

    Another Drew (080b14)

  233. Lovey, quit projecting your need for help upon others.

    mariO, you are another one who needs competant mental help.

    PCD (7fe637)

  234. #233 Another Drew, proof please.

    Oiram (983921)

  235. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 9:49 am

    Wow! That is so mature, for a 3rd-grader!

    Comment by Another Drew — 11/12/2008 @ 9:56 am

    This from the man who called a woman a slut for no apparent reason?
    *Eh-hem… looks around*

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  236. #234 PCD, Who me?

    Oh PCD sorry about the Dyslexia, hope Obama could help cover the brain exams for you.

    Oiram (983921)

  237. 237, mariO, being a jerk does not win you any arguments, just other jerks as friends.

    PCD (7fe637)

  238. Don’t look for Obama’s help. He’s an AA recipient, up to and including January of next year.

    If you want brains, kids, looks like you gotta go with Bush. After all, he scored higher than John Kerry on those IQ dealios. Just sayin’.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  239. Yeah, Bush is a genius.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  240. #238 Very true PCD. Re-read you comment and heed the warnings.

    Oiram (983921)

  241. Speaking of Dyslexia: Obama Nation = abomination.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  242. Comment by liesntyranny — 11/12/2008 @ 10:27 am

    How many elections for Governor, and President, have you won?
    Flown any supersonic aircraft lately?
    Just when did you earn that MBA from Harvard?
    What was your class standing at Yale?

    It doesn’t take a genius to out-perform pond-scum.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  243. What do you do with a bunch of lunatics? Hmm?

    — In the world of hopey-changey you announce them as the members of your cabinet.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  244. #231 Oriam

    I’ll go with your research, whatever it may be. But the stories together with any Angeleno’s memory of the Rodney King riots is more than enough proof of what was coming.

    Personally, I see a people who felt it was owed them. Any other politician could never run on Obama’s (non-)record of accomplishment. And the racist David Duke stuff that foamed out of Jeremiah Wright’s mouth… a total career killer for a white man. You know it and I know it.

    EOE.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  245. Comment by Oiram — 11/12/2008 @ 10:19 am

    Your many post here, and those of your compadres, are all the proof I need.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  246. So, when is Obama going to announce his “reparations” program?

    Official Internet Data Office (994c86)

  247. #246 All the world needs is what’s in Antother Drew’s head.

    No proof required.

    Another Drew has solved the world’s problems.

    Everyone can go home now.

    Oiram (983921)

  248. Just when did you earn that MBA from Harvard?
    What was your class standing at Yale?
    How many elections for Governor, and President, have you won?

    My last name isn’t Bush. It’s easy to run on/get accepted because of daddy’s coat tails

    Flown any supersonic aircraft lately?

    Neither has Bush. One could argue that, even if you strike the word ‘recently’, the statement would be untrue. He had a spotty attendance record. Spiccoli, anyone?

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  249. Comment by Oiram — 11/12/2008 @ 10:38 am
    Have a pleasant journey.
    Please call ahead of time if you expect to come back.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  250. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 10:40 am

    Guess you never heard of the F-102/F-106 aircraft series?
    Stupidity like that must really hurt.
    Take a lot of pain-killers, do you?

    Another Drew (080b14)

  251. Oiram is so close to putting his finger on it, it’s scary.

    All of the world’s problems cannot be solved . . . not by the Chosen One, not by anyone. Imperfect human beings will always have problems; they can be reduced but never eliminated. The absolutism which infects liberals is truly astounding.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  252. 249, tnj, because of the lies you spout, no one believes you. Also, you are also a jerk like lovey and mariO.

    PCD (7fe637)

  253. YMMV means your mileage may vary. I have been unequivocal in that I in no way believe you are an anti-semite. Period. Others appear to disagree.

    So’s your wife, obviously

    An example of the substantive debate you are searching for? Or is this more along the lines of your racist homoerotic clown rant?

    Yeah, Bush is a genius.

    I love it when the Left says this. Where are your degrees from, tmj? Yale and Harvard?

    JD (94c827)

  254. #252 ICY,

    I’m assuming “Chosen One” to you means Obama (That’s weird).

    I put that aside, you had me…….. and then you lost me with “The absolutism which infects liberals is truly astounding.”

    Isn’t assuming that all liberals are infected by “absolutism”, absolutism in of itself?

    Oiram (983921)

  255. I don’t believe his win would’ve been forfeited without undue opposition and mass hysteria. Election results were tight anyway when you add in Obama’s numerous advantages.

    48 million said no.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  256. 249, tnj, because of the lies you spout, no one believes you. Also, you are also a jerk like lovey and mariO.

    Comment by PCD — 11/12/2008 @ 10:45 am

    You are the huge guy, if I remember correctly, right? Did you sweat while you typed that or does that just happen when you eat?

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  257. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 10:40 am

    Guess you never heard of the F-102/F-106 aircraft series?
    Stupidity like that must really hurt.
    Take a lot of pain-killers, do you?

    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/bush_fell_short_on_duty_at_guard/

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  258. Who said “all liberals”, Oiram — you, or me?

    And the disease of absolutism continues its path of destruction.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  259. You are the huge guy, if I remember correctly, right? Did you sweat while you typed that or does that just happen when you eat?

    ymj just wants substantive debates, you racist homoerotic clowns.

    JD (94c827)

  260. Oiram wrote:

    Vermont, you somehow need to realize that the percentage of Obama supporters who promised to burn down every urban city should they not be given the win, are about the same sliver percentage of right wing religious nuts who think Obama is the Anti-Christ and end of times are near.

    Putting aside that you have no statistical backup for either assertion, there’s a big difference between those types of people: If you think Obama’s the Antichrist and you’re wrong, big deal, people have been wrong about the Antichrist for centuries (I personally have had discussions with people who thought Ronald Wilson Reagan was the Antichrist, in part because his full name is three words with six letters). OTOH, when minority activists say they’re going to riot and burn cities down, history has taught us to take them seriously.

    And unlike embarrassment over misinterpreting Scripture, burning cities kills people, ruins lives, and costs millions to repair.

    L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf)

  261. So, when is Obama going to announce his “reparations” program?

    Yes, yes, yes!

    The Reverend Jessie Jackson for Secretary of Reparations.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  262. I nominate Al Sharpton for Secretary of Discrimination.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  263. #252 ICY Writes:

    The absolutism which infects liberals is truly astounding.

    And then asks me on #259:

    Who said “all liberals”, Oiram — you, or me?

    If you are telling me you didn’t mean all liberals are “infected with absolutism” with your comment #252, I’ll take that as somewhat of an apology, otherwise a contradiction.

    Oiram (983921)

  264. Taking advise from the likes of tmj and lovie as to what the Republican Party should do would be the equivalent of a bank taking security advise from a bank robber.

    JD (94c827)

  265. #261 L.N.Smithee:

    Putting aside that you have no statistical backup for either assertion

    Neither does Vermont in #230 that was my point.

    People make these mistakes in both parties, I don’t like it when the left uses it against the right, just as much as when the right does it to the left.

    Oiram (983921)

  266. And post- election, I expect Cynthia McKinney to be treated fairly and awarded salary and damages, had campaign coffers been divided evenly.

    Spread the wealth around, never did see one TV commercial for her, not at all, not one. God damn Obama for not taking care of her.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  267. #265 JD, I have to point out the times I agree with you (few and far between).

    Taking advise from the likes of tmj and lovie as to what the Republican Party should do would be the equivalent of a bank taking security advise from a bank robber.

    I agree

    And yes once again the ground is not shaking 😉

    Oiram (983921)

  268. “Neither does Vermont in #230 that was my point.”

    You have no point. Based on the LA Riots and the threats coming out of urban cities, there is no way that a racial response was not likely. Police divisions were planning extra coverage, were they not?

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  269. #269 Police divisions were planning extra coverage, were they not?

    Certainly Vermont, but why assume that we are all like this?

    I was annoyed at liberals who painted all right wingers as Timothy McVeigh, weren’t you?

    Oiram (983921)

  270. You are the huge guy, if I remember correctly, right? Did you sweat while you typed that or does that just happen when you eat?

    ymj just wants substantive debates, you racist homoerotic clowns.

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 10:53 am

    Nah, nobody currently posting can really debate without getting nasty and off-topic so at this point it makes no difference.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  271. I think Oiram is giving you guys all you can handle right now anyway.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  272. #272, says the ant to the elephant…

    SPQR (72771e)

  273. tmj – Go back to polluting the minds of young children.

    JD (94c827)

  274. If you are telling me you didn’t mean all liberals are “infected with absolutism” with your comment #252, I’ll take that as somewhat of an apology, otherwise a contradiction.

    — One would think that someone on the side of the political aisle where people are prepared to play the race card at the drop of a hat would know the difference between stereotyping and accurate reporting of demographic trends.

    Then again, those on the left that so freely play those discrimination and bigotry cards are masters at completely ignoring the difference between the words “some”, “many”, “most”, and “all” — even when they know better.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  275. Timothy McVeigh couldn’t take down 8 or 10 cities. I do think it would’ve been a monster-sized mess had Obama lost. Also, I don’t think his win was representative of Americans, but reflective of the world’s duplicitous needs. Enough people here now see America as a shithole. Foreigners were a huge component in this election. I think the types of love and you know this, too. But end results and all …

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  276. Junior detective.. I am a bit disappointed in your detective skills. They aren’t young children.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  277. #276 Vermont writes: “Enough people here now see America as a shithole.”

    Hope not Vermont.

    Done with you.

    Oiram (983921)

  278. People that are still in school are children. Or, are you going to get all semanitic like when you argued that your call people

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC CLOWNS

    was fundamentally different than

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC ASSCLOWNS

    JD (94c827)

  279. semantic

    JD (94c827)

  280. Enough people here now see America as a shithole.”

    Who are these people of which you speak?

    JD (94c827)

  281. America is NOT a shithole!

    It’s just downright mean, as per its official designation by the black widow first-lady elect.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  282. People that are still in school are children. Or, are you going to get all semanitic like when you argued that your call people

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC CLOWNS

    was fundamentally different than

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC ASSCLOWNS

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 11:25 am

    I didn’t say it was ‘fundamentally’ different, but it is different. I don’t remember if I typed out racist, though, and I surely don’t trust your judgement on that. You’ve shown yourself to be quite a sh*tty detective, Junior.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  283. JD, the French. QED.

    SPQR (72771e)

  284. And, I would call seniors in high school young adults. Actually, in a few cases they are legally adults now so they are certainly not children. If they can defend the country…. right?

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  285. 282- Now that is racist.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  286. #284 SPQR Please read #276, and then you could blame the French all you like.

    Oiram (983921)

  287. truthnjustice, #286, I’m sure the spider does not mind.

    SPQR (72771e)

  288. truthnjustice wrote:

    I think Oiram is giving you guys all you can handle right now anyway.

    I’m on it. I’ve got a larger shovel on order from HomeDepot.com.

    L.N. Smithee (ecc5a5)

  289. Oiram, #287, I could sell you a sense of humor, but I’m not sure I have one on the shelf that works in your case.

    SPQR (72771e)

  290. truthnjustice wrote:

    I think Oiram is giving you guys all you can handle right now anyway.

    I’m on it. I’ve got a larger shovel on order from HomeDepot.com.

    I assume you’re going to claim that online purchase on your taxes, right? We don’t need any more tax cheats like Another Drew.

    truthnjustice (3d65f9)

  291. #282 Welcome to ICY’s politics truthnjustice:

    He is trying to equate Michelle Obama’s past comments to “Enough people here now see America as a shithole.”

    He’s not a racist, just a “spinner”.

    Oiram (983921)

  292. Nice spider-pun, Oiram.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  293. #293 Good one Green Lantern 🙂

    Oiram (983921)

  294. Oh, and to the point: she really did say “downright mean”, and her husband really did say “America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children.” And what did he say to blue-collar workers in the rust belt? that America has been shitting on them since the day that Jimmy Carter left office?

    Yeah, I’m way out of line on this one.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  295. Oh, and bruised’n’busted? I did not say anything that is racist.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  296. #295 uh…….. yeah just a bit.

    Oiram (983921)

  297. None of you can claim to be the responsible, thoughtful republicans. Ninety-five percent of the people that comment on here are raging, babbling, psychotic, homoerotic, clowns. Obama is a terrorist, racist, communist, socialist, white supremecist, catholic, muslim, jew… I think I have read it all on here.

    Laura Bush killed a guy. That is worse than not killing someone. Obama never has. Obama wins.

    You words. Own it. This comes from a teacher. Someone who claims to be searching for substantive debate. Yet calls out someone’s wife in this thread, unprovoked, calls another a tax cheat, etc … Lord help its students.

    JD (94c827)

  298. Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 11:54 am
    The tragedy is that it is probably one of the better teachers in its’ milieu, such is the debasement of a once fine craft.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  299. JD – Clowns scare me. That’s one reason I don’t like Obama.

    I’m loving tnj’s substantive debate. Yawn!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  300. None of you can claim to be the responsible, thoughtful republicans. Ninety-five percent of the people that comment on here are raging, babbling, psychotic, homoerotic, clowns. Obama is a terrorist, racist, communist, socialist, white supremecist, catholic, muslim, jew… I think I have read it all on here.

    Laura Bush killed a guy. That is worse than not killing someone. Obama never has. Obama wins.

    You words. Own it. This comes from a teacher. Someone who claims to be searching for substantive debate. Yet calls out someone’s wife in this thread, unprovoked, calls another a tax cheat, etc … Lord help its students.

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 11:54 am

    Compared with your claim earlier:

    People that are still in school are children. Or, are you going to get all semanitic like when you argued that your call people

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC CLOWNS

    was fundamentally different than

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC ASSCLOWNS

    Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 11:25 am

    So, you were actually wrong the other day when you insisted that I called you guys assclowns. Also, you were wrong when you asserted that I called you racist. Apology accepted, Junior Detective.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  301. Ha. The wife comment came in response to another poster calling another’s a slut. Was my comment any more inappropriate than what was said? No, of course not.

    Another Drew admitted that he would fudge his numbers on his tax returns. Sounds like a tax cheat to me.

    Again, I have to wonder if you went to a charter school… that is what happens when you introduce the profit motive into education: misuse of pronouns. I would be happy to schedule a tutoring session for you to work on that.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  302. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 9:49 am

    “Wow! That is so mature, for a 3rd2nd-grader!”

    Another Drew (080b14)

  303. Just like you, drew. Gloss over the post in which I prove you all wrong and counter-post something with no point.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  304. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 12:23 pm

    You have proven your disconnect from reality.
    One- I called no-one’s wife a slut; I said of TokyoRose …”it’s a lying, promiscuous slut”;
    Two- I said I would consult with my accountant to take advantage of every jot-and-tittle of the tax-code to minimize the impact of increasing Obamataxes to my personal and business situation.
    That, SIR, is not cheating, it is using the system to the best level of Rangelism (who, BTW, is a cheat).

    You may now excuse yourself and go back to poisoning the young-skulls-full-of-mush that parents have mistakenly put into your care, the fools.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  305. Still waiting for the explanation of what I said that was racist. . . .

    Apparently, the wheels of truth & justice grind slowly.

    Icy Truth (aedb2f)

  306. michelle obama comment, spicy poop

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  307. At least I came to your defense Green Lantern. 🙂

    Oiram (983921)

  308. Comment by liesntyranny — 11/12/2008 @ 12:32 pm
    You can compare this to your Boston Globe/NYT hit-piece….

    http://freedomkeys.com/w-tangfacts.htm

    Another Drew (080b14)

  309. drew: You agree that you would try to limit your tax burden no matter who was in the white House, right? Why, then, would you imply that your before tax bottom line would be different depending upon who was in the WH? Cheat.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  310. Cutting government, cutting taxes, and restricting immigration (at least illegal immigration) sound good to me.

    Total lip service. You guys have been saying that for 30 years and not delivering on any of it. If the conservative base had any sense of responsibility, they would have held their chosen leaders feet to the fire over those issues. Rather, you’ve made excuses for them, you’ve covered for them, you’ve agreed with them, and you’ve done it enthusiastically.

    If you’d like a hint, it’s the blind loyalty that is killing you guys. The conservative base followed their elected conservative leaders right off the cliff of conservative principles, how much credibility do you think people should afford you? The conservative movement is either terribly bad at identifying conservative leaders, or it’s a desperate, tenacious political animal on the brink that only thinks of the extremely short-term. Either way, your political opinion is as devalued as the stock market.

    chicken marsala (8984aa)

  311. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 12:50 pm

    Allegations not in evidence.
    Liar!
    But then, you’re a FOL, aren’t you?

    Another Drew (080b14)

  312. Another Drew: The wikipedia entry for his service is pretty damning. Those entries tend to be militantly unbiased because of the constant fact-checking that goes on on them, especially records as sensitive as those. Eat that with some ketchup.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  313. “…elected conservative leaders…”

    Can you put names to that accussation?

    Another Drew (080b14)

  314. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 12:56 pm

    Entries from Wiki have been repeatedly debunked on these pages, and elsewhere.
    It is as reliable as other parts of pop-culture.
    Like relying on USA-Today, or the Enquirer.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  315. Can you put names to that accussation?

    George Bush?

    This is the part where you pretend that you’ve hated George Bush all along.

    chicken marsala (8984aa)

  316. Comment by chicken marsala — 11/12/2008 @ 12:59 pm

    George W. Bush is not a Conservative!
    Try Again.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  317. #316 and then #317…….. Love it!

    Oiram (983921)

  318. In all fairness – and I come back to this thread with an apology to Oiram – I think he tried to be a little kind-ish, at least to me. Maybe not to you other guys, but at least to me. Unlike love ’08 who is not being united and gracious, who is not reaching across the aisle but instead gloats in warring words. That is not the America that Barack Obama campaigned on. It only represents the America of Mrs. Barack Obama, Esquire. The lawyer who benefited from so much this country has to offer, both legal and illegal. And yet still she said she had no pride… not until her husband was nomm’d for office… a man with less than a handful of years in public service. Come on. Tell me that’s not race-based.

    Back to Oiram and giving credit where credit is due: for a poster on a blind blog to even hint that we’re not all Timothy McVeigh-prototypes running around with explosives in the back of our truck is actually a conciliatory statement. Thank you for that and sprinkles on your sundae.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  319. “Gloss over the post in which I prove you all wrong and counter-post something with no point.”

    A frequent claim by tnj with no basis in reality.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  320. What is this? First #276, then #278, #283, #285, #286, #291, #299, and then #301, #302, #304 and #309! Is this a thread or an eBay auction?

    Official Internet Data Office (8360fd)

  321. “If you’d like a hint, it’s the blind loyalty that is killing you guys.”

    Chicken marsala plays progressive meme #27. Damn the evidence, full meme ahead. Rubber chicken time for those Kool Aid drinking TPM and Kos Kiddies.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  322. Fuck that, tmj. I have nothing to apologize to you for, nor will I.

    Another Drew admitted that he would fudge his numbers on his tax returns.

    He did nothing of the sort, yet you continue to lie about it. And yes, you are lying about it. When confronted with the specifics of what AD said, and what AD meant, you continue to maintain otherwise. Since you know what he meant, and continue to mischaracterize it, nothing short of describing it as an intentional lie will suffice.

    Yet again, for the challenged amongst you (I am talking about you here tmj) taking full advantage of the existing tax laws and being a tax cheat (which means breaking the laws rather than following them) are not the same thing.

    BTW – The writing on the bathroom wall about you is pretty damning. That is at least as credible as wiki.

    chicken marsala – Your advise is about as welcome as a root canal. It would be helpful if you bothered to learn something about the thoughts of the people here, prior to presuming to lecture people.

    Those entries tend to be militantly unbiased because of the constant fact-checking that goes on on them

    This is so incredibly stupid that I copied it just so everyone could have the pleasure of having soda squirt out their noses one more time.

    Oiram – You are not in good company.

    JD (94c827)

  323. The conservative base followed their elected conservative leaders right off the cliff of conservative principles,

    No way, chicken marsala. That isn’t true. From George Bush to Sarah Palin, conservatives have spoken out in divisive terms with for- and against- criticisms. Have to call you on that. Even this blog posted when Palin was a question mark, before the Veep debate and after the Couric interview.

    Bush gets combo hi/lo marks from most of us anti-Obama posters. OTH, I’ve seen total lockstep when it comes to Obama. That’s the liberal unity at work or something.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  324. VN – That is just a little projection on its part. They assume because they march in lock-step with Teh One that everyone else must have done the same. Also, they conflate defending a Republican against lies from the Left with actual support of the Republican.

    JD (94c827)

  325. #319 Thanks for the credit Vermont.

    When you said: “Enough people here now see America as a shithole.”

    I thought the “here” in your statement referred to people here at Patterico. (Unacceptable)

    The rest on Michelle is just tired gibberish McCain camp “Talking Points”.

    But your back on my debate list.

    Oiram (983921)

  326. Looks like chicken marsala touched a nerve.

    Tastes pretty good too.

    A lot better than the turkey that’s been served to us for the past 8 years.

    JD, I’m in some good company…….. as are you…. (some).

    Oiram (983921)

  327. Oiram, really… too many people have said this about the country. Glad we’re talking now, but a large basis of Obama’s appeal is that he’s down on America. “What it was”… “what it used to be”… that infomercial was one big downer.

    That wasn’t how Reagan campaigned. Yet Obama fooled people by borrowing phrases with resonanace and applying them to his own agenda. Tax cuts = welfare for non-producers.

    If he’s protected by the media while holding office (and with Google on his transition team, there’s no reason to believe otherwise), he can get away with some serious damage. His wife is not a fan of America… at least before they put a muzzle on and stuck her in the closet.

    Beyond race and beyond party, I think it’s why we hate seeing this entitled couple get something they truly don’t deserve: the chance to lead this country. (Or ‘rule,’ as Obama’s transition team calls it.)

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  328. No, chicken marsala did not hit a nerve. It demonstrated a painful ignorance of the issues the Republican party is dealing with, amongst themselves, and trotted out its Dem Talking Point meme du jour.

    JD (94c827)

  329. #279 JD

    RACIST HOMOEROTIC ASSCLOWNS

    I wish once and for all this issue could be put to rest.

    I, Peter, am the one that calls you guys assclowns (you know who you are). Just a simple no adjectives required and devastatingly to the point assclowns.

    TNJ calls you guys (same guys and no surprise there): Homoerotic racist clowns.

    Nothing wrong with that.

    I hope you assclowns are straight on that and we can put it to rest once and for all.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  330. Mendoucheous asshats, one and all.

    JD (94c827)

  331. #328 Vermont, I don’t need to tell you the difference between hating America and wishing it could return to what it once was.

    For example: Heaven forbid we are attacked by a terrorist under President Obama, but I know you and many here will be the first to say they wish they could return to the way America used to be under President Bush, and how proud they were to not have been attacked during his two terms after 9/11.

    I may debate you on that issue (hopefully we don’t have to), but I most certainly will not call you Anti American.

    As far as “rule”, I hadn’t heard about that, but I gather it wasn’t Obama who said it, just a mistake on his transition team’s part.

    Oiram (983921)

  332. just a mistake on his transition team’s part.

    You missed the memo. It is now Teh Office of the President-Elect.

    JD (94c827)

  333. “…wish they could return to the way America used to be…”

    Yes, I wish to return to the way America was under TR, when the greatest problem facing major urban areas was what to do with all the horse-crap in the streets.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  334. No, many here will be the first to say they wish they could return to the way America used to be under President Reagan.

    Official Internet Data Office (8360fd)

  335. #334,#335 Wonderful,

    I know your not Un-American based on those statements.

    Oiram (983921)

  336. and, i know that your still a grammatically challenged troll.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  337. Peter: Yeah, these guys don’t really focus on facts or details. Mostly they just read through your post quickly and if it isn’t something they disagree with then it is automatically incorrect. It is quite an odd sense of reality they have created for themselves.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  338. if it isn’t something they agree with*

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  339. #337 “and, i know that your still a grammatically challenged troll.”

    I can’t help but laugh at you Another Drew.

    Oiram (983921)

  340. I just shake my head in disappointment over you.
    A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”

    Another Drew (080b14)

  341. Is there a double standard here on this blog as regards how far people can go in insults and name calling? I will like to appeal to the owner of this blog to look into some of the really hateful and abusive things said to me by some commenters here. I noticed that some folks here seem to enjoy certain levels of immunity on this blog. They are free to insult whoever they choose to because they know they can never be banned by the host. People like PCD, AD, Daleyrocks, and JD. But they are quick to ban any dissenter who dares to insult one of there own. I will like DRJ or Patterico to look into this. Are insults and name calling fair game on this blog?

    love2008 (6db7aa)

  342. It is quite an odd sense of reality they have created for themselves.

    …said the commenter who promised to leave here more than a week ago, but still stays planted in the corner. Time to keep your promises, or do you habitually behave this way in front of your adults?

    Dmac (e30284)

  343. I noticed that some folks here seem to enjoy certain levels of immunity on this blog.

    Have you ever been banned? Have you ever been threatened with banning?

    Dmac (e30284)

  344. Who said this, I wonder?

    WE WON! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AH HA HA HA HA! LOOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!

    Dmac (e30284)

  345. Lovey – Would you like a glass of warm milk and a cookie?

    Where are those apologies for the the lies you told about the McCain Campaign? Don’t point at others when your own behavior is suspect, coward.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  346. love2008, since you get a lot of that immunity yourself, I can’t figure out what you are whining about.

    SPQR (72771e)

  347. Daley doesn’t: You are absolutely the worst poster on this site. I have never read anything on here that you have written that has made any valid point. My guess is that you’re the type of guy who opens his mouth at his work place in order to persuade others to adopt his warped views, yet only succeeds in fueling their dislike of him. They laugh at you. The only skill you’ve shown me is amateur name calling and insults. You persistently insert yourselves into fruitful debates I have with other, more intelligent visitors of this site in order to verbally attack me. You haven’t actually posted anything that specifically disputes any point I make.

    Dmac: You are not really as bad, but only because you post much more infrequently. You still owe me an apology for misquoting me. Do you relish in continually and consistently misrepresenting people’s words and the facts? Obviously you do. It is very telling that when you do so you are not willing to admit you were wrong or issue an apology for it. The fact that you actually reposted my words only to prove that, in fact, I was right and you were wrong causes me to wonder what your motives could have possibly been. Is your only argument against me that I was planning to leave the site about a week ago and I have continued to visit? Have you grown tired of being outmaneuvered day after day? Give it up, man.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  348. “Daley doesn’t: You are absolutely the worst poster on this site.”

    tnj – What do I win?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  349. “You haven’t actually posted anything that specifically disputes any point I make.”

    tnj – This making points thing – have you been keeping it a secret?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  350. Kiss it, apologize!

    Funniest thread evah!

    Mossberg500 (9fd170)

  351. Mossberg – No way. Absolutely no lips or tongue from that thing.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  352. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 4:24 pm
    Somebody has exceeded their projection quotient.

    Another Drew (5fedf0)

  353. Mossberg – No way. Absolutely no lips or tongue from that thing.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 4:46 pm

    Just kidding, daleyrocks. Truthnjustice is a…nevermind, why bother continuing a thread based on insults? I feel sorry for Patterico!

    Mossberg500 (9fd170)

  354. Mossberg – I thought you were talking about Lovey!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  355. Daley, can you explain what you mean by this:
    Lovey – Good to hear. Where are your fucking apologies, bitch?
    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 9:14 am

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  356. “Daley, can you explain what you mean by this:”

    Lovey – Absolutely. You admitted the McCain ad on Obama’s support for sex ed for kindergatners was not misleading but have not yet apologized for saying McCain lied about it. Where is your fucking apology for that and your lie about Obama’s illegal fundraising, bitch, especially since you said you were in a forgiving mood?
    It’s been five days since your lies now. What is so hard to understand about that? I believe it is the fourth or fifth time I have explained it to you. Your passive/aggressive approach is not working.

    I will pray for you, though.

    Lovey, may you find heaven soon.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  357. Lovey – Sorry. I meant to say – Your passive/aggressive approach is not working, bitch.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  358. Daleyrocks: Born by a bitch, married to a bitch and fathers a bitch. Classic story of a son of a bitch!

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  359. And thus my post about Daley doesn’t is proven. What a d-bag. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  360. Now, daley….No reason to be mean.
    I mean, just because it’s a lying, promiscuous slut; that’s no reason to throw names about.

    Comment by Another Drew — 11/12/2008 @ 9:17 am

    Hey, AD. I await a retraction and an apology for that comment.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  361. It probably won’t happen, love2008. These aren’t exactly the ‘salt of the Earth’ types you’re dealing with here.

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  362. Any “conversation” with love2008 devolves to name-calling. It just takes longer than with the other trolls because it’s such an oilier thing. Just ignore it. Engaging it is beneath any serious person’s dignity.

    nk (87c95e)

  363. Well, from what I’ve read here and elsewhere, you’ve been peddling your sorry political ass all over the internet.
    Sounds promiscuous to me.

    You neither deserve, nor will receive an apology from me for describing you as perceived.

    Another Drew (5fedf0)

  364. Daleysucks wrote:
    Lovey, may you find heaven.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 5:41 pm
    Thanks tinyd*ck, wish I could say the same for you. Problem is that Saddam Hussein is waiting for you to come and take your seat by his side, in hell. You will both make great lovers.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  365. Engaging it is beneath any serious person’s dignity.

    Comment by nk — 11/12/2008 @ 6:07 pm
    Dignity? You? Now that’s really funny.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  366. Comment by truthnjustice — 11/12/2008 @ 6:01 pm
    But I am still going to try and discipline some of these juveniles. Someone has to do it.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  367. The pot…

    Another Drew (5fedf0)

  368. Do you relish in continually and consistently misrepresenting people’s words and the facts? Obviously you do.

    Asked and answered – and you teach your students in this manner, yes?

    in fact, I was right

    When someone continually claims this in spite of evidence to the contrary, you have to wonder about their motives – and their level of insecurity. What’s that old saw about people who can, do – but for those who cannot, teach?

    Have you grown tired of being outmaneuvered day after day? Give it up, man.
    The master of projection once again claims victory – but I’ll allow Eric to Fisk you once again, if you prefer.

    Dmac (e30284)

  369. Well, from what I’ve read here and elsewhere, you’ve been peddling your sorry political ass all over the internet.
    Sounds promiscuous to me.

    You neither deserve, nor will receive an apology from me for describing you as perceived.

    Comment by Another Drew — 11/12/2008 @ 6:07 pm
    So you stand by your comments? No apologies?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  370. in fact, I was right

    When someone continually claims this in spite of evidence to the contrary, you have to wonder about their motives – and their level of insecurity. What’s that old saw about people who can, do – but for those who cannot, teach?

    How many times do you have to post my statement from earlier ‘assclown’ vs. ‘clown’, and the fact that I did not call you racist, before you actually read and comprehend it?

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  371. Comment by love2008 — 11/12/2008 @ 6:26 pm
    Asked, and answered!

    Another Drew (5fedf0)

  372. Comment by Another Drew — 11/12/2008 @ 6:31 pm
    Okay. We will leave it at that.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  373. Mossberg – I thought you were talking about Lovey!

    Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 5:30 pm

    They’re pretty much interchangeable, aren’t they?

    Mossberg500 (9fd170)

  374. Now love2008 is stealing jokes from South Park? How lame.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  375. The ideal opportunity for some leader to show himself was with the recent TARP bill. It turns out that 0% of this Toxic Asset Relief Package will go to purchasing toxic assets of banks, the mission sold to Americans. Congress tacked on an extra $150 billion, which remains intact. Sure McCain whimpered how it was wrong, but he voted for it anyway. Remember all that barking about how TARP needed to be passed into law imminently? It was a scam to get billions in pork, with no meaningful opposition. We are a country of weaklings.

    Wesson (f6c982)

  376. Lovey, can you explain what you meant by the following:

    Liar! Did the bill say kids will be subjected to watch adult content? You are the moron here. A lying retarded scum! I don’t intend to continue this conversation with an idiot. I wonder who lets you get around kids with this filthy mind of yours. It’s clear why dirtbags like you will be against teaching kids about sexual predators.

    Comment by love2008 — 11/10/2008 @ 8:30 pm

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  377. Lovey is a regular progressive hater under that smarmy camoflage. Not very Christian (don’t know whether she is anyway) and definitely not ladylike.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  378. Laura Bush killed a guy. That is worse than not killing someone. Obama never has. Obama wins.

    Hey, Obama votes to stab innocent children in the head with scissors so Mom can carry on with her constitutional right to gratification, self-fulfillment and hedonism.

    Laura Bush can’t top that. And she’s not a politician, either.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  379. Hey let’s face it, pedophiles vote Democrat for the most part.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  380. The more I think about abortion the more I think a bullet in the head of the gyno is justified.

    Hitler was never so efficient or cruel.

    [That is an unacceptable comment. This is your only warning. I don’t want to see such talk from you on my site again. — Patterico]

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  381. VN – Plus you’ve got embryonic stem cell research. Bush was advised by the scientific community that we already had enough lines going for research purposes so he was against approving more. People don’t even realize he got scientific advice before making his decision but he got incredible heat for it anyway. Adult stem cell research has made tremendous progress in a number of areas. Embryonic stem cell research, not so much. But one of the libs first priorities is to approve ESCR, harvesting spare parts from embryos – except embryos don’t have spare parts I don’t believe. Gotta kill ’em. Nishi is real big on this shit.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  382. The more I think about abortion the more I think a bullet in the head of the gyno is justified.

    Hitler was never so efficient or cruel.

    Aaaaaaaand that’s where I get off.

    Robert, I don’t tolerate that sort of talk here, period. If you want to muse about doing violence to people, go do it somewhere else. This is your one and only warning.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  383. P.J.O’Rourke used to be much more positive about conservatism.

    Another Drew (5fedf0)

  384. But one of the libs first priorities is to approve ESCR, harvesting spare parts from embryos – except embryos don’t have spare parts I don’t believe.

    daleyrocks,

    It’s an interesting supply-and-demand technique on the Dems’ part. Create a need, then justify legislating the need. I remember when Bush got that info too, and very few ‘Bots will give him credit for much of anything. And now, ironically, we’re on the precipice of a Truth Squad regime.. four years to infinity. The leader who can’t handle dialogue or questions. I hope the ‘foot in mouth Barry’ trumps the TelePrompt Tool to the point where even the kool-aid crowd feels a tinge of shame. Delish.

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  385. 382- The educated vote democratic too.

    Racists vote republican.

    paul s (c313be)

  386. “Is there a double standard here on this blog as regards how far people can go in insults and name calling ?”

    Love 2008,

    Apparently so. Look at the guy above. ^

    Vermont Neighbor (5ea336)

  387. Patterico, go right ahead. It is your site. I’ll stand by the thought. Civility in this fight is for the birds. Civility is usually what gets the innocent in trouble sin ce the oppositions confuses it with weakness.

    Me thinks you confuse LEGAL with right/wrong. Legally, all is swell and what I wrote is “legally wrong.” I have no desire to do ILLEGAL things.

    But face facts, lots of horror has been done LEGALLY over the years. In fact, it is the preferred method of most Governments to allow the killing of life by passing a law to allow it and building institutions to raise that killing to a form of patriotism.

    Learn your history but seriously how many dead babies so far at the hands of the medical business?

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  388. So long, Robert. You’re banned.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  389. Anyone else who wants to muse that a bullet in the head of an abortion doctor might be justified, and insists on standing by the thought, can join Robert in the ban file.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  390. The liberals want to sing the doom of the conservative movement just because of Obama’s victory. Republicans have been down before in our great country’s history and have risen back to prominence. Let Obama and his leftist illuminati cabinet work their magic for a while and this country will be clamoring for a conservative approach.

    Jeff (3cb047)

  391. 382- The educated vote democratic too.

    Racists vote republican.

    Memes #2 and #3 in the Democrat Hymnal.

    JD (94c827)

  392. Comment by JD — 11/13/2008 @ 8:56 am

    Two Foundations of Democratic Thought:
    If one is educated, then you must vote Dem, for only an un-educated knuckle-dragger would not.

    If you vote GOP, you are, a priori, a racist.

    Another Drew (51839f)

  393. Actually, my thoughts on education and voting preference was based on information posted on here (maybe DRJ… not sure) by one of your people. It wasn’t my post, I was just bringing up the point.

    truthnjustice (d99227)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3043 secs.