Patterico's Pontifications

5/5/2021

Rep. Liz Cheney Continues To Refuse To Push Trump’s Big Lie About “The Big Lie”

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:20 am



[guest post by Dana]

As we know, the current Republican Party is a hot mess. As the once-grand political party continues to be mired in an ugly identity crisis, Donald Trump, who lost the election four months ago but still refuses to accept the loss, remains at the heart of the crisis. Two days ago he confirmed this by pushing his favorite Big Lie about “the big lie”:

“The Fraudulent Presidential Election of 2020 will be, from this day forth, known as THE BIG LIE!”

Rep. Liz Cheney, who voted to impeach Trump and continues to remain committed to speaking the truth about the election, publicly pushed back on his delusional nonsense:

Trump then released another statement targeting Cheney by calling her a “big-shot warmonger” and claiming that people in Wyoming “never liked her much.”

Because some members are frustrated with her refusal to back Trump’s Big Lie about “the big lie,” Cheney faces the possibility of being removed from her leadership position yet again:

Cheney’s outspoken criticism of Trump has led to some House Republicans to accuse her of dividing the conference and distracting from the party’s goals. Some have recently warned that Cheney could face a vote to oust her from her spot in the House Republican in leadership, although Cheney survived a similar test earlier this year.

House GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy has the power to call for that vote, but it’s unclear if he will do that as soon as next week, according to multiple House GOP sources.

But multiple Republican lawmakers and aides say that Cheney is on very shaky ground internally and whether she can hang on to her post in a secret-ballot election is highly uncertain.

Why a secret ballot? If they believe themselves to be in the right by voting her out, then let them make their stand publicly and on the record.

If the fact that Cheney’s refusal to lie for Donald Trump continues to be seen as divisive and distracting by a majority of House Republicans, then they continue to make it clear that the expectation for members is to publicly lie about Trump and his election loss. The problem isn’t Cheney or her statement. The problem is that Donald Trump continues to push a Big Lie about “the big lie”. Unfortunately, not only are Republicans willing to let Trump’s falsehood stand but they would rather circle their wagons around a proven liar than circle their wagons around a member committed to telling the truth, no matter the cost. This shames the entirety of the Republican Party.

If ever there was a time for a third party, it’s now. This especially as one hears what House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, caught on a hot mic, really thinks about Cheney:

–Dana

UPDATE FROM PATTERICO: But but but the problem is that Liz Cheney won’t stop talking about the election or January 6. She’s looking backward, not forward! We can’t have someone leading the Republican party who keeps talking about the past!

But that’s different!

167 Responses to “Rep. Liz Cheney Continues To Refuse To Push Trump’s Big Lie About “The Big Lie””

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. UPDATE FROM PATTERICO: But but but the problem is that Liz Cheney won’t stop talking about the election or January 6. She’s looking backward, not forward! We can’t have someone leading the Republican party who keeps talking about the past!

    But that’s different!

    Patterico (e349ce)

  3. Republicans are fine with people looking backwards and talking constantly about the election.

    As long as you lie.

    What they cannot abide is Cheney telling the truth about it.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  4. This reminds me of one those historical curiosities. People usually accuse Hitler/Goebbels of inventing the Big Lie as a means of gaslighting the German population. But it was actually Hitler who first used the term to accuse Jews of lying about who was responsible for Germany losing WW1:

    But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man [Ludendorf] who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice.

    All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true within itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

    It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

    — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X[8]. In other words, Hitler obscured the lie that Germany was stabbed in the back, with his own claim that the Jews were lying the other direction.

    It kind of reminds me of Trump’s triumphant ability to turn the idea of “fake news” which was originally a relatively factual description of some websites that prospered by generating fake but plausible news, usually conservative, into a catch-all insult for any news he didn’t actually like.

    As for Cheney, well it seems to me there was some shit she did not want to eat and she wasn’t shy about saying so. If that’s to be the litmus test for the GOP, so be it.

    Victor (4959fb)

  5. I believe there were ten GOPer who voted to impeach Trump and seven (or eight?) voted to remove him from office.

    There were plenty of other GOPers who regularly questioned Trump or called out his actions, even though they didn’t vote to impeach/remove.

    Yet, none of them are repeatedly on the news denouncing Trump and challenging the party in the way Cheney had been doing. What she’s doing is making things harder for her colleagues, whilst in a position of leadership. She’s stoking needless division within the party, when the conventional wisdom that GOP stands a good chance of retaking Congress in the next election.

    She’s putting her interests, ie trying to stay relevant, above the party she was selected to lead.

    whembly (446c04)

  6. They’ve got nothing but grievance and hunger for power.

    Assuming he doesn’t croak first, Donnie will get the nomination, and because democracy is only important to them insofar as it provides a veneer or legitimacy, they’ve tilted the rules enough that there’s a decent change he could win.

    It is early, but at this point I’d call it even-money he gets the opportunity to burn the country down. I think 1.6 demonstrated that he’ll take it.

    America is the most advanced democracy on earth!

    john (cd2753)

  7. @Patterico and @Dana.

    Just to be clear – the “Big Lie” is the idea that Trump won. Right? (which I 100% agree with. Biden won the election)

    I’m trying to fully understand the premise before commenting further.

    whembly (446c04)

  8. Whembly, I believe it’s complicated.

    People try to use “The Big Lie” in new contexts to associate their opponents with the Nazi. I don’t think it’s an accusation of Nazism, just negative connotation.

    Trump recently tied to to borrow the phrase to refer to the theory that he lost the election. Cheney’s tweet was in response to that.

    I think Dana and Patterico are mocking him for that but I could be wrong.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  9. She’s stoking needless division within the party,

    Thank God Trump isn’t doing that.

    She’s putting her interests, ie trying to stay relevant, above the party she was selected to lead.

    Thank God Trump isn’t doing that.

    It’s pretty difficult to take these arguments seriously unless you are going to be even more vociferous in denouncing Trump for doing all the same things, except way, way more.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  10. Just to be clear – the “Big Lie” is the idea that Trump won. Right? (which I 100% agree with. Biden won the election)

    I’m trying to fully understand the premise before commenting further.

    Yes, but Trump says it’s the idea that he lost.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  11. The only thing Trump got right was describing Cheney as a warmonger.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  12. The only thing Trump got right was describing Cheney as a warmonger.

    Not the first draft-dodger to use the word. The plagiarist!

    nk (1d9030)

  13. i hope cheney can return the party to its big truth wmd principles

    JF (e1156d)

  14. “fake news” which was originally a relatively factual description of some websites that prospered by generating fake but plausible news, usually conservative,

    Those darn conservatives.

    BuDuh (7cbd3c)

  15. cheney as a purveyor of truth, or harris as a taskmaster on border security

    which is more ridiculous?

    discuss

    JF (e1156d)

  16. Again, it is time for a real center-right party. There is more than just Trumpism that was a problem with the dying GOP.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. I eagerly await Trump v Facebook, although it’s a pity they can’t both lose.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. Speaking of Big Lies and those who enabled them:

    A federal judge in Washington accused the Justice Department under Attorney General William P. Barr of misleading her and Congress about advice he had received from top department officials on whether President Donald J. Trump should have been charged with obstructing the Russia investigation and ordered that a related memo be released.

    Judge Amy Berman Jackson of the United States District Court in Washington said in a ruling late Monday that the Justice Department’s obfuscation appeared to be part of a pattern in which top officials like Mr. Barr were untruthful to Congress and the public about the investigation.

    The department had argued that the memo was exempt from public records laws because it consisted of private advice from lawyers whom Mr. Barr had relied on to make the call on prosecuting Mr. Trump. But Judge Jackson, who was appointed by President Barack Obama in 2011, ruled that the memo contained strategic advice, and that Mr. Barr and his aides already understood what his decision would be.

    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/05/05/liar-liar-big-fat-liar/

    Victor (4959fb)

  19. People who continue to support the GOP as it currently stands and refuse to refute Trump’s Big Lie should probably find a strategy other than “Look, bright shiny object!”.

    Also, in order for the GOP to regain its standing in American politics, Trump must be purged from the party, his election loss, and Biden’s win must also be publicly acknowledged. Without some soul-cleansing, it will remain its own battleground.

    Dana (fd537d)

  20. I just added this to the post because in re-reading it, I saw that I forgot to say it:

    Why a secret ballot? If they believe themselves to be in the right by voting her out, then let them make their stand publicly and on the record.

    Americans deserve to know which elected officials are willing to go on the record to essentially protect Trump and his big lie about the election. Make them own it in front of their peers, and the country.

    Dana (fd537d)

  21. Bu duh and JF.

    The point of course is not that the media sometimes gets it wrong. IF that’s what you mean by “fake news”, I don’t know what to tell you. Reporters are humans. Sometimes they get it wrong. Find me a reputable news source that doesn’t.

    I am talking about the origins of the term. It was originally created to describe websites whose entire business model was propounding false stories. Not stories with mistakes, requiring retractions, but entirely fictional:

    It was mid-2016, and Buzzfeed’s media editor, Craig Silverman, noticed a funny stream of completely made-up stories that seemed to originate from one small Eastern European town.

    “We ended up finding a small cluster of news websites all registered in the same town in Macedonia called Veles,” Silverman recalls.

    He and a colleague started to investigate, and shortly before the US election they identified at least 140 fake news websites which were pulling in huge numbers on Facebook.

    The young people in Veles may or may not have had much interest in American politics, but because of the money to be made via Facebook advertising, they wanted their fiction to travel widely on social media. The US presidential election – and specifically Donald Trump – was (and of course still is) a very hot topic on social media.

    The city getting rich from fake news
    And so the Macedonians and other purveyors of fakery wrote stories with headlines such as “Pope Francis Shocks World, Endorses Donald Trump for President” and “FBI Agent Suspected in Hillary Email Leaks Found Dead in Apparent Murder-Suicide”.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42724320

    And what followed, as I said, was Trump taking over the term as a way of simply rejecting news stories he didn’t like.

    And that reminds me of the origin story of The Big Lie. (See above)

    Victor (4959fb)

  22. Dana!

    You’re back!!

    Promise you’ll never leave us again!

    :-)

    (Hope you had a nice vacation…)

    Dave (1bb933)

  23. JF, you’re conflating media making and correcting mistakes with media intentionally releasing bad information.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  24. @25 when the media allows a mistake to percolate for weeks or months, through an election, then belatedly corrects it, there’s a difference I must be missing

    but there is certainly a vast pro-trump right wing conspiracy that is a plague on the media’s credibility, and I do hope you get to the bottom of it

    JF (e1156d)

  25. Know what they call Darth’s Daughter at the sole Denny’s in Casper, Wyoming?

    Toast.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  26. Thanks, Dave, and yes, I had a terrific vacation.

    Dana (fd537d)

  27. Assuming Cheney is ousted, I wonder if it will finally convince the well-intentioned hold-outs like Beldar that the so-called Republican Party is beyond redemption?

    Dave (1bb933)

  28. @9

    She’s stoking needless division within the party,

    Thank God Trump isn’t doing that.

    Trump is out of politics. Trump lost.

    Cheney is in politics. She won. The rest of the GOP leadership supported and backed her when she voted to impeach.

    Hell she won the first leadership recall.

    But you have to think, that part of the leadership role isn’t to continually snip at the members of her party and fan the flames.

    She’s putting her interests, ie trying to stay relevant, above the party she was selected to lead.

    Thank God Trump isn’t doing that.

    It’s pretty difficult to take these arguments seriously unless you are going to be even more vociferous in denouncing Trump for doing all the same things, except way, way more.

    Patterico (e349ce) — 5/5/2021 @ 9:00 am

    Pat, I’m on record in believing that Trump should’ve been impeached within 48hrs of Jan 6th, if for nothing else, for dereliction of duty for his cavalier response to that event.

    But you can’t have a leader who continually and gleefully engages in friendly fire and has a side business of giving the other side ammunition against her own party.

    Her being in danger of losing her leadership position is entirely of her own making.

    whembly (446c04)

  29. OT- but worth noting this day…

    From a framed evening newspaper in my den:

    Friday, May 5, 1961

    Headline:

    FIRST U.S. ASTRONAUT RIDES SAFELY INTO SPACE

    Subhead:

    Recovered In Atlantic;
    Cmdr. Shepard’s Capsule Is
    Taken Aboard Carrier
    After Historic Feat

    ______

    ‘Cape Canaveral- Astronaut Alan B. Shepard successfully blazed a U.S. trail into the fringes of space today. His Freedom 7 capsule made a normal landing in the Atlantic after the sub-orbital flight. The historic mission was apparently carried out without any major difficulties. Shepard was reported unharmed. The Redstone rocket carrying Shepard was launched at 9:34 AM EST. He was picked up in the Atlantic at 9:53 AM.’

    60 years ago today…

    This NBC News report is brief, and worth a watch for younger readers– to see when America truly was great, didn’t need a red hat to broadcast it, fixed its little problems and lit the candle:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc0ccOmcPno

    “Okay, José, you’re on your way!” – Deke Slayton, May 5, 1961

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. via HotAir:

    Trump: Supporters will be “very happy” when I make 2024 announcement

    During an appearance by phone on Candace Owen’s eponymous Daily Wire show “Candace,” Trump said he was “absolutely enthused” and looking forward to “doing an announcement at the right time.” “I think people are going to be very, very happy when I make a certain announcement,” Trump said. Trump added that it is still very early in the campaign process for 2024, and for campaign finance reasons, it would not make sense to announce any decisions at this time. “Otherwise I’d give you an answer that I think you’d be very happy with,” Trump told Owens. “All I say is, ‘Stay tuned.’”

    Dave (1bb933)

  31. @10

    Just to be clear – the “Big Lie” is the idea that Trump won. Right? (which I 100% agree with. Biden won the election)

    I’m trying to fully understand the premise before commenting further.

    Yes, but Trump says it’s the idea that he lost.

    Patterico (e349ce) — 5/5/2021 @ 9:01 am

    Okay, cool.

    Trump’s and his supporters are wrong here. Biden won based on the rules set in 2020.

    However, I don’t have any issues with folks wanting to audit the election, or even legislatively fix certain election laws (ie, Georgia or Florida). There were electoral issues galore that any inquires shouldn’t be relegated to the same “Big Lie” bucket. I think Cheney does that at times.

    whembly (446c04)

  32. Some good news for Cheney:

    Liz Cheney’s top financial supporters are standing by her despite a move by House Republicans to remove her as conference chair.

    Cheney, who represents the state of Wyoming, is unlikely to lose any of her major contributors even if she is ousted as an official leader within the House Republican caucus, according to donors who spoke to CNBC.

    Some even say they will withhold contributions to anyone who opposes Cheney. That signals a split in the wealthy Republican donor ranks between big-money financiers who continue to back former President Donald Trump and those more aligned with Cheney’s views that Joe Biden won the 2020 election fair and square.

    Eric Levine, who is an owner of the law firm Eiseman Levine and a Republican fundraiser, told CNBC on Wednesday in an email that Cheney’s business supporters plan to continue to back her. Those donors, he said, are concerned about Trump’s influence over the Republican Party and how those forces will impact future elections. Levine gave over $2,800 to a Cheney joint fundraising committee in the first quarter, records show.

    “With but a few exceptions, that group appears to be uniformly supportive of Cheney and very concerned about Trumpism,” Levine said. “Republicans can only win if we can make substantial inroads in the suburbs and with women. Donald Trump is a proven loser in those precincts,” he added.

    Dana (fd537d)

  33. @19 Yeah, Judge Amy Berman Jackson isn’t a partisan judge. No siree. /sarc

    whembly (446c04)

  34. When Evan McMullen chimes in on how essential Cheney is, then Trump will know he has a problem on his hands.

    BuDuh (12caa4)

  35. Oh, Liz; such a drama queen. The truly ‘Big Lies’ in my life time:

    Vietnam. Watergate. Iraqi WMDs.

    And, of course:

    Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. Liz Cheney’s top financial supporters are standing by her despite a move by House Republicans to remove her as conference chair. Cheney, who represents the state of Wyoming, is unlikely to lose any of her major contributors even if she is ousted as an official leader within the House Republican caucus, according to donors who spoke to CNBC.

    There’s around 600,000 people living in Wyoming. So who are the “donors?”

    ‘Federal Election Commission records show… contributions from corporation PACs such as Pfizer, T-Mobile, Morgan Stanley and General Electric.’

    All possible/past/future/likely subcontractors to:

    Halliburton.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. @21

    People who continue to support the GOP as it currently stands and refuse to refute Trump’s Big Lie should probably find a strategy other than “Look, bright shiny object!”.

    Also, in order for the GOP to regain its standing in American politics, Trump must be purged from the party, his election loss, and Biden’s win must also be publicly acknowledged. Without some soul-cleansing, it will remain its own battleground.

    Dana (fd537d) — 5/5/2021 @ 10:08 am

    I disagree.

    The GOP need to figure out how to reconcile with each other.

    If they don’t, you’re going to have two very happy person:
    1) Biden, for one.
    2) …and Trump.

    Biden, and Democrats, would love nothing more than for this schism to blowup the GOP party as it gives them a better chance to retain power and to pass even more swapping changes.

    Trump, because it keeps him relevant and gives him, at the very least, the perception that he’s a kingmaker. Remember, Trump thrives on these division and controversies…

    So, when 90+% of Republicans believed that Trump was a GOP President and had 90+% support, you’re not going to purge Trump/Trumpism anytime soon.

    The way to reconcile this is to be like Mitch McConnell and Ben Sasse of the world… not Liz Cheney or Justin Amash.

    We need politicians whom are deft at threading that needled, meaning being able to “moveon.org” and address the current challenges head on knowing who’s at the Whitehouse while preparing for a take over in the future. All the while without ostracizing the Trumpers and canceling Cheneys/Amashes.

    Tim Scott/Nikki Haley anyone? 😉

    whembly (446c04)

  38. It’s just too bad that the GOP can’t get beyond Trump. But once you slime yourself defending, excusing, and rationalizing everything…..it’s hard to pivot to a new direction and maintain your authority. They’re stuck thinking that Trump came up with the ultimate grift….and they want to use it to similarly fleece the flock. It’s about getting and keeping the plush seat….and not about actually doing anything for the best interest of the country. You can’t kill the golden goose.

    If you think its best for the country to continue talking about voter abuse in 2020….and how Mitch McConnell lost Georgia Senate seats….then we just get more of the same. No real ideas. No actual solutions to festering problems…..just more slop for talk radio and the RedState comment section. If you don’t demand better from both sides, then you’re a big part of the problem….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  39. They are talking of replacing her with Elise Stefanik.

    If this is the beginning of the break-up of the Republican Party, her piece is maybe too small.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  40. Why a secret ballot? If they believe themselves to be in the right by voting her out, then let them make their stand publicly and on the record.

    The first vote (and evidently all votes on matter like this) are by secret ballot. That gave more Republicans courage to support her

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  41. AJ wrote

    It’s just too bad that the GOP can’t get beyond Trump.

    I think you’re way off base. A huge number of GOP voters don’t want get beyond Trump. They want more Trump. Elected GOP officials have little to no ability to steer their supporters away from Trump.

    Trump really is closer to the center of the GOP then Cheny or Romney. ‘leaders’ like Paul or Cruz that used to have ideological POV have given it up for the reasons you describe but I doubt they’d have been able to move the need. We can’t know for sure because they’re worthless.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  42. But you can’t have a leader who continually and gleefully engages in friendly fire and has a side business of giving the other side ammunition against her own party.

    Her being in danger of losing her leadership position is entirely of her own making.

    Maybe she’s trying to lead her political party away from Trump.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  43. Time123 (66d88c) — 5/5/2021 @ 8:53 am

    Trump recently tied to to borrow the phrase to refer to the theory that he lost the election. Cheney’s tweet was in response to that.

    Actually, the term BIG LIE here was first used to describe Trump’s claims of having had the election stolen from him.

    The context is the apocryphal quote, attributed to Nazi propaganda Minister Goebbels, that if you tell a lie that is big enough it will become the truth/people will believe it. That’s how it’s come down in popular culture.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-on-the-quot-big-lie-quot

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

    This is an excellent definition of the “Big lie,” however, there seems to be no evidence that it was used by Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, though it is often attributed to him….

    …Randall Bytwerk argues that neither Hitler nor Goebbels would admit to lying. Goebbels, “always maintained that propaganda had to be truthful. That doesn’t mean he didn’t lie, but it would be a pretty poor propagandist who publicly proclaimed that he was going to lie.”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  44. “We need a two-party system.” – President Plagiarist 2:50 PM EDT, 5/5/21

    Royalist; the Founders didn’t think so.

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. Time123 (f5cf77) — 5/5/2021 @ 11:47 am

    Maybe she’s trying to lead her political party away from Trump.

    Actually, I think she has no strategy, and is in over her head.

    But she wants to be honest, at least about this.

    She;s not an innovative enough thinker. Mo Winston Churchill, or Abraham Lincoln, or even Rpnald Reagan

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  46. Tim Scott/Nikki Haley anyone? 😉

    Dark chocolate and caramel; need some white chocolate in that candy bar to sell.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. Look forward to her being booted out of office for not representing her constituents, but instead trying to increase her profile and get accolades from the leftist media.

    NJRob (7e35a1)

  48. leaders’ like Paul or Cruz that used to have ideological POV have given it up

    What are the top ten ideological points of view that Paul and Cruz have given up?

    BuDuh (dffef1)

  49. An early use of the term “Big Lie” applied to the 2020 election:

    New York Times, Tuesday, November 10, 2020 column by Thomas L. Friedman

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/opinion/trump-lies.html

    He and his collaborators are now making one last bid to use the Big Lie to destroy our democracy by delegitimizing one of its greatest moments ever — when a record number of citizens came out to vote, and their votes were legitimately counted, amid a deadly and growing pandemic.

    Washington Post headline Thursday, November 12, 2020.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/some-local-officials-are-resisting-trumps-big-lie-sadly-gop-senators-arent-as-principled/2020/11/12/a229df7e-2532-11eb-a688-5298ad5d580a_story.html

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  50. Trump is out of politics. Trump lost.

    Trump lost, but Trump is not out of politics. See Dave’s #32. He’s probably about to announce a 2024 campaign.

    Pat, I’m on record in believing that Trump should’ve been impeached within 48hrs of Jan 6th, if for nothing else, for dereliction of duty for his cavalier response to that event.

    But you can’t have a leader who continually and gleefully engages in friendly fire and has a side business of giving the other side ammunition against her own party.

    So we have your pledge that you will never support Trump again, right? That’s all he does.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  51. cheney as a purveyor of truth, or harris as a taskmaster on border security

    which is more ridiculous?

    Maybe if the GOP could get over its Liz Cheney obsession (if Uncle Donnie would let them, that is) then they could band together and properly take the Biden/Harris Administration to task for its horrendous handling of the border crisis.

    Many of you probably saw the news yesterday about the boat full of immigrants apparently attempting an illegal sea crossing but ending up capsizing and killing three aboard probably due to the fact that it was grossly overcrowded. I think a lot of progressives view that and say, “See, this is why we need to pretty much admit anyone who shows up at our border requesting asylum, because otherwise they undertake these dangerous crossings led by smugglers and awful things like this happen.” And I think that many conservatives view this same tragedy and say, “See, this is why the whole progressive idea that once someone arrives in the U.S. — even illegally — they should never be removed from this country short of being convicted of a major crime is so counterproductive, because it simply encourages reckless behavior such as this. If we want to stop these dangerous crossings, the best way is not to reward those who successfully undertake them.”

    JVW (ee64e4)

  52. Biden: “We need a two-party system.”

    DCSCA; the Founders didn’t think so.

    They wanted more independent representatives. It’s political theorists who talk about the value of a two party system. Not very good when both major parties are off the wall in some way. Almost all politicians are locked into one of the two major parties.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  53. 53. JVW (ee64e4) — 5/5/2021 @ 12:25 pm

    Many of you probably saw the news yesterday about the boat full of immigrants apparently attempting an illegal sea crossing but ending up capsizing and killing three aboard probably due to the fact that it was grossly overcrowded. I think a lot of progressives view that and say, “See, this is why we need to pretty much admit anyone who shows up at our border requesting asylum, because otherwise they undertake these dangerous crossings led by smugglers and awful things like this happen.” And I think that many conservatives view this same tragedy and say, “See, this is why the whole progressive idea that once someone arrives in the U.S. — even illegally — they should never be removed from this country short of being convicted of a major crime is so counterproductive, because it simply encourages reckless behavior such as this.

    Actually, we will do neither of these two things.

    But you will never knock the idea of people’s heads that they have a self-evident, unalieenable right to the pursuit of happiness.

    A simple solution: Let people from Central America buy their way in for $3,000, with very few exceptions.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  54. The secret of the problem with the Republican Party is their hardline (and dishonest) position on illegal immigration.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  55. the Founders didn’t think so.

    Madison and Jefferson (“the Founders”) created the first party system in America.

    Idiot.

    Dave (1bb933)

  56. Dave #47.

    Madison and Jefferson (“the Founders”) created the first party system in America.

    Well, sort of. You got anti-Jeffersonians pretty soon, led by Hamilton

    The original method of electing a president of the United States presupposed the absence of political parties – at least anything that extended beyond the boundaries of a single state.

    In the beginning, the partied were somewhat fluid. But by the 1930s they were really stuck.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  57. Maybe if the GOP could get over its Liz Cheney obsession (if Uncle Donnie would let them, that is) then they could band together and properly take the Biden/Harris Administration to task for its horrendous handling of the border crisis.

    Akshually:

    The Biden administration on Monday touted its work moving children out of US Customs and Border Protection custody and in to the custody of Health and Human Services — as the agency’s statistics show an increasing flow of migrants crossing America’s southern border illegally.

    The Department of Homeland Security announced that as of Saturday, there were just 677 children in CBP custody, an 88% drop from March 28 when more than 5,700 children were in custody. The presentation by DHS included a series of before-and-after photos of a processing facility in Donna, Texas.

    Images from late February and mid-March showed long lines and packed holding areas, including rows of children sleeping under foil blankets. The most recent photos, taken April 30, showed the facility to be nearly deserted.

    “In March, we faced a critical challenge at our border,” DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas said in a statement. “The men and women if DHS have been working tirelessly over the past several weeks to respond and rebuild. Their efforts have produced dramatic results – results that ensure the safety and security of both the migrants we encounter and the American people.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  58. Dave’s 12:33 is clearly a personal attack.

    BuDuh (b4c2d7)

  59. BuDuh, I agree, if you’re looking for moderation support your should either email Patterio or put one of the Mods names (patterico, Dana, JVW) in the comment so they see it.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  60. The Biden administration on Monday touted its work moving children out of US Customs and Border Protection custody and in to the custody of Health and Human Services — as the agency’s statistics show an increasing flow of migrants crossing America’s southern border illegally.

    Any comment on the latter half of that first sentence you quoted?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  61. Mockery of an ignorant statement is not a personal attack, in my opinion.

    Dave (1bb933)

  62. Cancel culture is wrong! Sez republican party unless its liz cheney! To quote AOC They have the money (donor class) We have the voters (trump supporters)

    asset (b08956)

  63. once in HHS custody it’s pretty much mission accomplished for the illegal migrant

    that this is touted by harris and biden’s sycophants pretty much says it all

    JF (e1156d)

  64. Any comment on the latter half of that first sentence you quoted?

    The flow of migrants crossing the border illegally is not within anyone’s control.

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. Any comment on the latter half of that first sentence you quoted?

    The flow of migrants crossing the border illegally is not within anyone’s control.

    Dave (1bb933) — 5/5/2021 @ 1:23 pm

    It’s clearly within our ability to influence with our policies.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  66. Mockery of an ignorant statement is not a personal attack, in my opinion.

    Dave (1bb933) — 5/5/2021 @ 1:18 pm

    You called him an idiot. That’s clearly a personal attack about his intelligence, not his education on the topic.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  67. My point is: if someone crosses the border illegally, and is immediately apprehended, it still counts as an illegal entry.

    The number of illegal crossings, in itself, says nothing about the effectiveness of border enforcement.

    Dave (1bb933)

  68. JF,

    Well if your concern was for the welfare of the immigrants, so that they don’t drown in the ocean or get raped and killed in camps on the border, than having them in HHS custody where they can be properly processed would be a good step.

    As for your professed concern that being nice to people crossing the border will encourage more people to cross the border, you might consider that people making that trip have their reasons and the approach dictated by common decency is to listen to their reasons, evaluate them, and act accordingly. As opposed to shoving them all back to whatever hell they’re coming from.

    Victor (4959fb)

  69. You called him an idiot.

    I mocked him by quoting him calling someone else an idiot when he didn’t know what he was talking about (@46).

    Dave (1bb933)

  70. As you guys may know, I don’t like playing comment moderator here.

    DCSCA quoted Joe Biden and then ended by calling the President an “idiot.” That is perfectly within the bounds of what I believe our host has established for commenting.

    Dave then took issue with DCSCA’s assertion about the Founders and repeated the “idiot” epithet, but in this case directed at DCSCA. I think our host would consider this out of bounds.

    I would like to believe I have been consistent in only moderating quotes comments that were spam or obviously highly abusive, so I don’t plan to do anything about Dave’s quote comment, other than warn him that Patterico or Dana might not be as tolerant.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  71. @69 an administration that leads migrants to believe border security will be enforced in a more lax manner will make the easy calculation that an attempted border crossing is more likely to succeed, and will act accordingly

    they’re aren’t as dumb as you think

    JF (e1156d)

  72. *will cause them to make the easy calculation

    JF (e1156d)

  73. If calling someone an “idiot” leads to banning, then DCSCA would have been gone along time ago. And if someone feels insulted being called an “idiot”, then they are probably too sensitive for life.

    This comment is not directed at anyone in particular, but my opinion.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  74. I find DCSCA’s description of Tim Scott and Nikki Haley far more offensive than calling someone an “idiot.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  75. I think using someone else’s own words in a rejoinder should be fair game.

    If a word is OK if embedded in “quote” tags, but not OK if left out of them, I think we’re splitting hairs a bit too finely.

    Dave (1bb933)

  76. Rip Murdock and Dave: I’m a believer in the rough-and-tumble world of commenting. All I am telling you is that from my years at this site I have observed that our host takes a dim view of name-calling among commenters. Just be forewarned.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  77. an administration that leads migrants to believe border security will be enforced in a more lax manner

    Except the Biden administration hasn’t done that.

    Dave (1bb933)

  78. Theoretically, we could reduce the number of people crossing the border illegally by shooting them at the border or by putting them in front of a firing squad when we catch them. The question is what is one’s tolerance for violence against another person. I would not find it to be acceptable if we were summarily executing people for crossing the border and in trade for that, I am willing to put up with some number larger than 0 crossing the border and a less than perfect system for processing those people. I have seen free fire zones at a border (though it was for people trying to get out rather than in and even then people still chanced it.), I do not want that here.

    Nic (896fdf)

  79. @57. Davey, Davey, Davey… do learn to read:

    Biden: “We need a two-party system.”

    https://www.history.com/news/founding-fathers-political-parties-opinion?form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV

    The founders didn’t want political parties as they feared factionalism. They never anticipated the two-party system, which presents voters with basically a binary choice and minor parties on the margins.

    =sigh= And of course, there ARE more than two parties, as any Libertarian will tell you. assessment stands; President Plagiarist: idiot.

    Sammy nails it a #54, too.

    Hit the showers. Davey.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. @68. Meh. Been called worse than that by bums peeing in the subway at 48th and 6th. It’s fun to watch people back the plagiarist-in-chief; reveals an element of their character.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  81. @76. You’re kidding, right? Or is it you’d prefer something of a more “presidential” tone:

    “I mean, you got the first African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man,” – Joe Biden

    Besides, regulars know Nikki’s my gal.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  82. @80 thanks for offering your false alternative fallacy

    JF (e1156d)

  83. Darling Nikki is more interested in the top spot.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  84. Scalise backs Stefanik to replace Cheney

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elise-stefanik-gop

    Minority Whip Steve Scalise of Louisiana will back New York Representative Elise Stefanik to replace Cheney, his spokesperson said. – http://www.cbsnews.com/news/elise-stefanik-gop

    The knives are out. If only she was “an African-American who was bright, clean and articulate” eh? 😉

    “Torpedo los!” — ‘Action In The North Atlantic’, 1943

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. @85. You figured that out, eh. My vote for her is solid.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. @53. That was down around Point Loma off SD; it’s a rough spot for pleasure craft on good days and a routine end run round the border fence by water that seldom ends well. The sea is the sucker run; walking in across the border through fence gaps is the ‘easier way’ — they’ve even left markers as pathfinders.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  87. @88. Trump looks healthy; Cruz… more like his waiter.

    “Mister Trump, sir, you want fries with that?”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  88. @80.You mean the “to cross da vire is death’ scenario?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3KbLBwQFW4

    Good bet they’d let a blond, blue-eyed fella w/a ball and glove through.

    Theoretically. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. Cheney has an op-ed in today’s Washington Post:

    I am a conservative Republican, and the most conservative of conservative values is reverence for the rule of law. Each of us swears an oath before God to uphold our Constitution. The electoral college has spoken. More than 60 state and federal courts, including multiple Trump-appointed judges, have rejected the former president’s arguments, and refused to overturn election results. That is the rule of law; that is our constitutional system for resolving claims of election fraud.

    While embracing or ignoring Trump’s statements might seem attractive to some for fundraising and political purposes, that approach will do profound long-term damage to our party and our country. Trump has never expressed remorse or regret for the attack of Jan. 6 and now suggests that our elections, and our legal and constitutional system, cannot be trusted to do the will of the people.

    This is immensely harmful, especially as we now compete on the world stage against Communist China and its claims that democracy is a failed system.

    How to remedy the problem:

    For Republicans, the path forward is clear. First, support the ongoing Justice Department criminal investigations of the Jan. 6 attack. Those investigations must be comprehensive and objective; neither the White House nor any member of Congress should interfere.

    Second, we must support a parallel bipartisan review by a commission with subpoena power to seek and find facts; it will describe for all Americans what happened. This is critical to defeat the misinformation and nonsense circulating in the press and on social media. No currently serving member of Congress — with an eye to the upcoming election cycle — should participate. We should appoint former officials, members of the judiciary and other prominent Americans who can be objective, just as we did after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The commission should be focused on the Jan. 6 attacks. The Black Lives Matter and antifa violence of last summer was illegal and reprehensible, but it is a different problem with a different solution.

    Finally, we Republicans need to stand for genuinely conservative principles, and steer away from the dangerous and anti-democratic Trump cult of personality. In our hearts, we are devoted to the American miracle. We believe in the rule of law, in limited government, in a strong national defense, and in prosperity and opportunity brought by low taxes and fiscally conservative policies.

    There is much at stake now, including the ridiculous wokeness of our political rivals, the irrational policies at the border and runaway spending that threatens a return to the catastrophic inflation of the 1970s. Reagan formed a broad coalition from across the political spectrum to return America to sanity, and we need to do the same now. We know how. But this will not happen if Republicans choose to abandon the rule of law and join Trump’s crusade to undermine the foundation of our democracy and reverse the legal outcome of the last election.

    She is wed to being truthful about the election loss for Trump, no matter the cost:

    History is watching. Our children are watching. We must be brave enough to defend the basic principles that underpin and protect our freedom and our democratic process. I am committed to doing that, no matter what the short-term political consequences might be.

    Dana (fd537d)

  90. 62. JVW (ee64e4) — 5/5/2021 @ 1:13 pm

    Any comment on the latter half of that first sentence you quoted?

    It;s not clear what exactly the Republicans are criticizing.

    They don’t want to say.

    Or maybe they seem to say that more illegal migrants are crossing the border, but they don’t want to say what precisely Biden changed that, according to them, he shouldn’t have.

    They speak of “crisis” The crisis was the overcrowding in detention centers, wasn’t it? Or was it something else? Republican members of Congress are silent about this.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  91. Also:

    Two different people familiar with these conversations say that, in the past few days, one of the top House Republicans who Trump has spoken to about Cheney was Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA). And on the call, McCarthy told Trump that Cheney would be on her way out soon. McCarthy’s office declined comment for this story.

    On Wednesday, Trump took a break from golfing and dining with Republican Senators at Mar-a-Lago to again wade into internal House GOP politics, this time to post on his blog about his choice for Cheney’s would-be successor.

    “Liz Cheney is a warmongering fool who has no business in Republican Party Leadership,” Trump said in his statement. “We want leaders who believe in the Make America Great Again movement, and prioritize the values of America First. Elise Stefanik is a far superior choice, and she has my COMPLETE and TOTAL Endorsement for GOP Conference Chair. Elise is a tough and smart communicator!”

    While the twice-impeached former president has persistently called for Cheney’s political ruin—and his statement of support for Stefanik and against Cheney probably is the nail in the coffin—the reality is, Trump probably doesn’t need to lift a finger. Conversations with a dozen sources on Capitol Hill and in Trump’s orbit revealed that Cheney is almost certainly playing out her last week as the GOP conference chairwoman.

    “Cheney was a dead woman walking long before her ‘Big Lie’ tweet or McCarthy’s hot mic ‘leak,’ and I’m sure she knew it,” a senior GOP aide told The Daily Beast.

    One Republican member also theorized that Cheney had “seen the writing on the wall” and was going out “in a blaze of glory,” but a source familiar with Cheney’s thinking told The Daily Beast that everything she’s said has been “chiefly motivated by telling the truth and saying what needs to be said.”

    “There are two things at play: her position on telling the truth and where she stands could not be clearer,” this source continued. “She has been very direct about that and the choice before members is simply ‘Is it okay to be in leadership and tell the truth?’”

    According to this source, Cheney has told members that it’s not worth holding on to the conference chair position “if lying is going to be a requirement.”

    It seems clear that the majority of Republicans in Congress are demanding to be the Party that is required to lie. Cheney and a few others want to be the Party that is willing to embrace the truth – no matter how much it might hurt them. Because once integrity is sacrificed, everything else falls by the wayside too.

    Dana (fd537d)

  92. As Biden leads by division and inflation, it’s kind of the GOP to validate my rejection of its slate, probably forever.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  93. @84 So your tolerance also does not include shooting people at the border? That’s great! But you should know that you are encouraging illegal immigration by being a softliner on immigration.

    (I personally find the line of argument that being some level of humanitarian is encouraging illegal immigration to be disingenuous, just like what I said above. I don’t believe that JF is encouraging illegal immigration by not wanting to shoot people crossing the border any more than I think Joe Biden is doing so by having the people who are supposed to care for parentless children be the people who care for parentless children who crossed the border illegally.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  94. First, support the ongoing Justice Department criminal investigations of the Jan. 6 attack. Those investigations must be comprehensive and objective; neither the White House nor any member of Congress should interfere.

    I think, if they get to the bottom of it, it can be traced to Russia. Trump was just roped in and misled. He thought he was going to speak at the rally which was going to be held at the Capitol. The planners of the riot thought that Trump might be persuaded to declare martial law – and only Vladimir Putin could have been that ignorant of the the United States to think that Trump would attempt that.

    Second, we must support a parallel bipartisan review by a commission with subpoena power to seek and find facts; it will describe for all Americans what happened.

    What happened with the Capitol riot, or what happened with the election?

    The commission should be focused on the Jan. 6 attacks.

    That is open to the objection that it would interfere with the criminal investigation. Is she not at least aware of that? She doesn’t even say that this is more important.

    the irrational policies at the border

    Be specific.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  95. If Cheney is all about honesty why does an unnamed source need to test the waters for her with the Daily Beast?

    Say it yourself, Liz.

    BTW, has the GOP listed the members who have been requires to lie along with their direct quotes of their lies?

    BuDuh (32287d)

  96. The Black Lives Matter and antifa violence of last summer was illegal and reprehensible, but it is a different problem with a different solution.

    What, pray tell, is that solution, Liz? AFAICT the Jan 6th ingrates had only one bite at the anarchy apple while Antifa and BLM are on their second bushel with no curtailing in sight.

    BuDuh (b3833e)

  97. Liz Cheney is noble and principled, and she is laying down a moral marker.

    Mitch McConnell is a shrewd political operator, who probably detests Trump but holds his tongue in order to get some good things accomplished.

    Neither are wrong.

    It’s fantasyland to require a denunciation of Trump before ever supporting a Republican candidate again. And, it’s naive to expect voters to acknowledge they were wrong to support Trump. People don’t like eating humble pie.

    If that is your standard, then prepare for leftist policies ad infinitum. It’s letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. (I’m not saying Trump is good, just that good policies can be pursued whether or not Trump is castigated.)

    Think of your own families. How many times have you wished that a relative apologize for something? You can wait for an apology that will never happen, or you can have a relationship.

    Voters will come around, but not if you rub their faces in Trump doo-doo and force them to wear dunce caps.

    norcal (01e272)

  98. Finally, we Republicans need to stand for genuinely conservative principles, and steer away from the dangerous and anti-democratic Trump cult of personality. In our hearts, we are devoted to the American miracle. We believe in the rule of law, in limited government, in a strong national defense, and in prosperity and opportunity brought by low taxes and fiscally conservative policies.

    Shorter, Daughter Darth; follow Daddy’s lead:

    “Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong.” – Darth Vader

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  99. a

    n administration that leads migrants to believe border security will be enforced in a more lax manner

    Dave (1bb933) — 5/5/2021 @ 1:54 pm

    Except the Biden administration hasn’t done that.

    Yes, he did. They knew what the general position of the Democratic Party was.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-immigration-asylum/biden-win-bolsters-asylum-seekers-hopes-of-policy-shift-idUSKBN27N0Q6

    he news and celebrations spread fast among communities of asylum seekers stranded from Tijuana to Matamoros more than 1,500 miles along the U.S.-Mexican border on Saturday – Joe Biden had won the race for the White House.

    He could have countered that, but he did not, and he didn’t demonize illegal immigrants.

    He actually attempted to temporarily suspend all deportations pending a policy review but was overruled by a judge. And he indicated that there would be less of the remain in Mexico policy.

    If people didn’t realize by themselves that it would be easier. the smugglers told them. And he relieved some of the pressure on Mexico to contain migrants, by hook or by crook. And he did nothing to give anyone hope that it might be easier to immigrate legally. Not a word about that.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  100. Time: “I think you’re way off base. A huge number of GOP voters don’t want get beyond Trump. They want more Trump.”

    We’re trapped in an “own the libs” cycle…..and even though we are losing elections and Trump is trafficking in garbage….too many Republicans feel that we desperately need the biggest SOB to remain the focus….because he gives them what they want…..not intelligent governance….shrewd policy analysis….or disciplined leadership…..but that he consistently owns the libs….oh and he owns anyone else that questions his magnificence….like Cheney. It’s like 4th grade. Trump is willing to break anything and anyone for his own amusement/interest. There’s nothing conservative or ennobling about any of it. Yes, it’s my daily whine…..but it’s what I got

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  101. 100.Liz Cheney is noble and principled, and she is laying down a moral marker.

    There’s nothing noble about an heir to a Halliburton war fortune advocating perpetual conflict; sending other kids off to slaughter and be slaughtered while safely avoiding risk [a Cheney family trait BTW] — then profiting from the carnage.

    Volunteer, Liz?? Sorry, hun: ‘Gotta revolution, dear…’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_YWN1mrAg

    “I had other priorities in the 60’s than military service.” – Darth Cheney

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  102. https://twitter.com/pjcolbeck/status/1390030664133750792

    This video seems to running around the internet and hasn’t been deleted or labeled as misinformation by either Twitter or YouTube. Additionally the elements of his narrative are being discussed in an actual court of law.

    Liz Cheney needs to straighten this kid out.

    BuDuh (7fa883)

  103. It’s fantasyland to require a denunciation of Trump before ever supporting a Republican candidate again. And, it’s naive to expect voters to acknowledge they were wrong to support Trump. People don’t like eating humble pie.

    If that is your standard, then prepare for leftist policies ad infinitum.

    If the choice is between a party that tries to steal elections by going to court to throw out tens of millions of legally cast ballots, or a re-run of LBJ (sans Vietnam, presumably) I’ll take the Great Society over the Third Reich any day.

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. Ms. Cheney is doubling down, and she happens to be right.
    So is the WSJ.

    The election wasn’t stolen, yet Mr. Trump wants an endorsement of his stolen claim to be a litmus test for every Republican candidate. He’s the one who wants to refight his losing campaign.
    The better part of political prudence would be for Ms. Cheney to ignore Mr. Trump. But Mr. Trump won’t ignore her. He issued four statements on Monday and three of the four were attacks on fellow Republicans, including one on Ms. Cheney. She may be ousted because she is daring to tell the truth to GOP voters—and at personal political risk.
    Even as President Biden proposes the largest expansion of government in decades, Mr. Trump is spending his energy settling scores in his own party.

    She’s made it clear that Trump loyalists may vote her out of leadership, but they can’t shut her up.

    Look forward to her being booted out of office for not representing her constituents, but instead trying to increase her profile and get accolades from the leftist media.

    She voted with Trump 92.9% of the time, Rob, so it’s not about Trump’s issues, it’s about leg-humping a one-term loser ex-president and going along with his Big Lie for career advancement reasons. That’s neither conservative nor Republican in principle.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  105. Along the lines of Trump’s Big Lie, his minions in Arizona are channeling idiot conspiracy that illegal ballots were imported from Asia, so the “audit” is looking for traces of bamboo on them.
    This is my party, still sickened with Bizarro TrumpWorld fever.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  106. Mr. Trump wants an endorsement of his stolen claim to be a litmus test for every Republican candidate.

    There must be a tremendous list of the many, many candidates that have given such an endorsement.

    BuDuh (02ad94)

  107. @96 the migrants themselves seem to have a different opinion, expressed with their feet

    well, who to believe, that’s a tough one

    JF (e1156d)

  108. I got the idea that they were ruling out Bamboo to silence the crazies.

    BuDuh (02ad94)

  109. The “crazies” won’t be convinced of anything. You can’t reason with cultish nuts.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  110. Here is Brakey in his own words. There are two video clips:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/dennis_welch/status/1390014544890658819

    BuDuh (02ad94)

  111. Here is Brakey’s twitter. It hasn’t been active for a while:

    https://twitter.com/johnbrakey?lang=en

    He seemed very concerned, pre election, that rigged machines could have been used in Florida to give the win to Trump.

    BuDuh (02ad94)

  112. Dana omitted the juicy opening of Cheney’s editorial, where she backhands McCarthy:

    In public statements again this week, former president Donald Trump has repeated his claims that the 2020 election was a fraud and was stolen. His message: I am still the rightful president, and President Biden is illegitimate. Trump repeats these words now with full knowledge that exactly this type of language provoked violence on Jan. 6. And, as the Justice Department and multiple federal judges have suggested, there is good reason to believe that Trump’s language can provoke violence again. Trump is seeking to unravel critical elements of our constitutional structure that make democracy work — confidence in the result of elections and the rule of law. No other American president has ever done this.

    The Republican Party is at a turning point, and Republicans must decide whether we are going to choose truth and fidelity to the Constitution. In the immediate wake of the violence of Jan. 6, almost all of us knew the gravity and the cause of what had just happened — we had witnessed it firsthand.

    House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) left no doubt in his public remarks. On the floor of the House on Jan. 13, McCarthy said: “The president bears responsibility for Wednesday’s attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.” Now, McCarthy has changed his story.

    (links in original)

    Dave (1bb933)

  113. Trump voting scores:

    Cheney: 92.9%

    Stefanik: 77.7%

    Dave (1bb933)

  114. cheney: wyoming
    stefanik: new york

    i mean, get real

    JF (e1156d)

  115. Cheney: 92.9%
    Stefanik: 77.7%

    Pay no attention to what they say; just watch what they do. It’s results that count!

    Oh wait ….

    Radegunda (cc822d)

  116. cheney: wyoming
    stefanik: new york

    i mean, get real

    Does that explain why Stefanik decided that being the Trumpiest Trumper after the election was the way to advance her career?
    Or why she’s viewed so much more favorably than Cheney by the people who claim to be intent on defending Trump’s policies?

    Radegunda (cc822d)

  117. @110 Would you actually say, then, that being unwilling to just shoot people at the border means it’s also partly your fault that people cross the border illegally?

    Nic (896fdf)

  118. DCSCA quoted Joe Biden and then ended by calling the President an “idiot.” That is perfectly within the bounds of what I believe our host has established for commenting.

    Dave then took issue with DCSCA’s assertion about the Founders and repeated the “idiot” epithet, but in this case directed at DCSCA. I think our host would consider this out of bounds.

    Correct

    Patterico (e349ce)

  119. @121 would you actually say, then, that being unwilling to just shoot people who don’t wear masks means it’s partly your fault that covid has spread?

    what level of education finds this logic convincing? cuz i need to hit the books to catch up

    JF (e1156d)

  120. It’s actually the kind of bullying “argument” our kids encounter every day at our schools, from their teachers, counselors, and administrators, JF. I remember it far too well from my school years.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. @JF@123 Nope, I just said a minute ago that I thought that line of argument was disingenuous. Your implication appeared to express a different opinion, so I wanted to clarify, as it seemed unlikely. So I will attempt to clarify again: You do not believe that your being unwilling to take extreme measures at the border makes it partly your fault that people choose to cross the border illegally. Is that correct?

    Nic (896fdf)

  122. Jonah frames a couple of issues pretty well, one, that comparing the 1/6 insurrection to the summer rioting is inapt and, two, Cheney didn’t make Trump’s Big Lie an issue until Insurrection Day. She even voted for him, twice, but the riots were her bright line.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  123. @125 i honestly don’t know what you’re getting at, and your question makes zero sense

    there is a spectrum of enforcement options, both at the border and in addressing covid spread

    you could shoot violators, or you could have open borders and do nothing, and any of a number of things in between

    you get credit or blame for the various outcomes that result

    this isn’t a very earth shattering observation, but since you’re unwilling to buy into it maybe it is

    JF (e1156d)

  124. Ms. Stefanik can use her following statement as an audition tape for replacing Cheney.

    “In Georgia, there was unconstitutional overreach when the Secretary of State unilaterally gutted signature matching for absentee ballots and in essence eliminated voter verification required by state election law. In addition, more than 140,000 votes came from underage, deceased, and otherwise unauthorized voters — in Fulton County alone. And many individuals testified to not being able to meaningfully observe the counting of ballots.”

    All lies. Extra points for Stefanik being one of the 140-some House fascists who voted to cancel popular votes in multiple states.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  125. @JF@127 OK, I’m confused again. There are people who wouldn’t cross the border if we shot them. You don’t think we should shoot them. Do you feel like you are partly to blame if those people come because we don’t shoot them?

    Nic (896fdf)

  126. obviously i’m playing this game wrong

    why don’t you answer my question about covid so you can show me how it’s done

    JF (e1156d)

  127. @130 I did answer. With clarity. (unless you are an ELL, in which case google is your friend).

    Why is it a “game” that I’m trying to clarify what you think?

    Nic (896fdf)

  128. She voted with Trump 92.9% of the time, Rob, so it’s not about Trump’s issues, it’s about leg-humping a one-term loser ex-president and going along with his Big Lie for career advancement reasons. That’s neither conservative nor Republican in principle.

    But it is politics in reality.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  129. ok, nope then

    to state the obvious, because unlike the trump policies which biden reversed shooting someone is unnecessarily cruel among other problems with it

    you’re not seeking clarity with such a question

    JF (e1156d)

  130. @JF@133 I am, in fact, looking to clarify what your viewpoint is. Why would you think I wasn’t?

    Now, I know you are not a Biden fan, so it’s probably easy to see his actions in the most negative light. However, as a thought experiment, lets say that Biden told the truth when he said that he found Trump’s method of enforcing border policy to be morally unacceptable, perhaps akin to how you feel about shooting someone at the border. If he is to blame for the one who come because we didn’t continue to do what he considers cruel, are you partly to blame for the ones that come because we don’t do what you consider cruel.

    And why isn’t industry to blame for hiring them, which is what motivates the people who come for economic advantage?

    Nic (896fdf)

  131. “Sure, you can observe our ‘audit’ of the ballots, but you have sign this NDA requiring you to not tell anyone what you observed”.
    It’s yet another reason why the so-called audit in AZ is an unmitigated clown show.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  132. Paul Montagu (26e0d1) — 5/5/2021 @ 4:52 pm

    Along the lines of Trump’s Big Lie, his minions in Arizona are channeling idiot conspiracy that illegal ballots were imported from Asia,

    Every one of these ballots would have to be assigned a voter (even though you wouldn’t know how each one was cast – but you would know in groups of, at most, about 300) Now imagine trying to do thsat in advance of an election. Invent voters ad signatures? Then it is more than just ballots, and very detectable.

    There;s just news now about cheating in a homecoming queen election – initial suspicion was triggered by the thought she was just not that popular (her mother, an assistant principal or something at another school, did it)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  133. Writing an Op-ed in the Washington Post appealing vaguely to “history” and to “children” but not to God, is not a way to get the Republican Party to choose truth, but it a way of getting ready to punish the Republican Party. The Democrats are watching, and getting ready to pounce.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  134. I was hoping that I could look forward to the 2022 midterm elections, vote and contribute to GOP candidates to help them get the majority, with Trump out of the White House. But I’m not sure now. Especially when the House GOP conference is pushing to get Elise Stefanik, a Trump bootlicker, to oust Cheney. What is even more damning is that the latter is rock solid conservative, and much more so than Stefanik. It doesn’t even matter to Cult 45 that Cheney voted more often with the Trump administration than Stefanik.

    I’ll contribute to the campaigns of Liz Cheney, Jaime Hererra-Beutler, Peter Meijer, and a few others who have acted honorably throughout all this. But that is about it, unless there is a 180 degree collective change of heart in the coming days. I doubt it will happen. Maybe it might take a another electoral drubbing of the GOP to get it to happen, I don’t know.

    HCI (92ea66)

  135. Can an NDA be enforced to prevent someone from speaking about criminal activity they have witnessed?

    BuDuh (c30e4c)

  136. @134 because nothing in your question is even remotely relevant to the policies in question, and you knew that when you asked it

    your ridiculous line of reasoning could justify stopping any and every law enforcement activity, whether on the border or not

    JF (e1156d)

  137. 139. BuDuh (c30e4c) — 5/6/2021 @ 5:49 am

    Can an NDA be enforced to prevent someone from speaking about criminal activity they have witnessed?

    It can’t trump a subpoena, but I am not sure about saying anything in public when not giving public testimony. I guess it can’t stop anybody from calling law enforcement, but putting pressure on law enforcement would be something else. I think there are some state laws that limit non disclosure agreement, too.

    https://www.taylorring.com/blog/if-you-have-signed-an-nda-can-you-report-a-sexual-assault

    By and large, signing an NDA cannot prohibit that individual from reporting a crime if it occurs. The courts have found it contrary to public policy and interests to prevent someone who has signed an NDA from reporting a criminal act. However, sexual harassment that does not rise to the level of criminal activity or behavior may not be reported as a result of a signed NDA.

    A non-disclosure agreement usually [separately] includes a promise not to file a lawsuit. This exempts the victim from the right to pursue and obtain civil compensation in a particular matter. It also prevents the individual from going public and to the media to speak about the matter or to discuss it with future employers or coworkers. However, an NDA does not prevent criminal behavior from going unreported. Most of the time an NDA will not be violated if the employee who has signed the agreement then becomes the victim of a sexual assault and reports it. In fact, a judge may void the NDA completely once the crime is reported. One problem is that employees who sign NDAs may not understand their rights to report when criminal actions such as sexual assault are involved.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  138. It would seem that observers witnessing and tampering with the ballots would not be restricted from reporting it, as that would be a crime.

    Lots of arm waiving over this audit.

    BuDuh (15a152)

  139. Should be “….witnessing any tampering…”

    BuDuh (15a152)

  140. 135. Paul Montagu (26e0d1) — 5/5/2021 @ 10:47 pm

    but you have sign this NDA requiring you to not tell anyone what you observed”.

    The NDA is not so strict. It is limited to:

    1. Revealing “confidential” information, which is a term for trade secrets. This could be a problem. What if their tests for the presence of bamboo are nonsense? Or anything else they do to detect fraud?

    2. Saying anything at all about the audit until when and if the results of the audit are made public. But after that they can.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  141. The NDA is there to prevent people from stopping this audit scam before it is completed.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  142. Can an NDA be enforced to prevent someone from speaking about criminal activity they have witnessed?

    No. It cannot even be enforced to prevent someone from speaking about non-criminal activity by government officials they have witnessed. Got a picture of Kelli Ward picking her nose over the ballots?

    nk (1d9030)

  143. This looks a little bit more like an attempt by Elise Stefanik to get a job (though she might possibly have been recruited by someone else) than an attempt to purge Liz Cheney from the leadership.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  144. @52

    Trump is out of politics. Trump lost.

    Trump lost, but Trump is not out of politics. See Dave’s #32. He’s probably about to announce a 2024 campaign.

    Until we know some more, that’s simply a guess.

    There’s a least 1.5 to 2 years before candidates start announcing themselves and I’m still dubious Trumps want to really run again.

    Pat, I’m on record in believing that Trump should’ve been impeached within 48hrs of Jan 6th, if for nothing else, for dereliction of duty for his cavalier response to that event.

    But you can’t have a leader who continually and gleefully engages in friendly fire and has a side business of giving the other side ammunition against her own party.

    So we have your pledge that you will never support Trump again, right? That’s all he does.

    Patterico (e349ce) — 5/5/2021 @ 12:19 pm

    I agree that’s all he does. But, you will not have my pledge.

    I will not vote for him during the primaries.

    I will work extremely hard to convince my peers to not vote for him in the primaries.

    But to this day, I’d still take Trump over any Democrat governance. I believe the policies being pushed and normalized by the liberal-left are the kinds that’ll have lasting damage/change, moreso than any of the ridiculous bullspit that Trump/Trumpers have done.

    My vote is really agnostic to the person who’s running the office… I just want a candidate/party to push my preferred agendas. That’s it.

    My belief is that the President is simply a politician temporarily holding a powerful office. Not an individual that we will get some paragon of virtues that we all should aspire too. Presidents has been, will always be flawed individuals and by the time they reached the office, many (most?) are already damaged goods.

    whembly (2e3fb6)

  145. A Democrat weighs in:

    DONNA, Texas (Border Report) — U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials on Tuesday released photos of a migrant processing tent facility in the border town of Donna, Texas, that showed very few unaccompanied minors — down significantly from a few weeks ago when images showed hundreds upon hundreds of migrants atop one another.

    But U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar, D-Texas, told Border Report that the photos are misleading because he says the unaccompanied migrant children actually still are at the same sprawling tent compound in Dona, but just in other tents that are operated by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

    “All they’re doing is they’re moving kids from one tent to the other tent and saying, ‘Oh, they’re not in the Border Patrol (custody),’ but they’re right next door,” Cuellar said. “They’re just next door in HHS.”

    https://www.borderreport.com/hot-topics/immigration/dhs-misleads-with-photos-of-empty-processing-facility-for-migrant-youth-border-congressman-says/

    So much for that success story.

    BuDuh (25c39c)

  146. Patterico, I think Whembly is a pretty good example of someone that has supported Trump as the ‘lesser evil’ without whole sale buying into Trump as the GOETUS. At least that’s how I’d characterize him based on the last few years of interaction here.

    I mean he’s wrong. Trump was the greater evil. But I know if i keep typing he’ll eventually see reason. 😀 I’ll also learn a lot based on his replies.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  147. Time, you may have missed my earlier question as I forgot to address it to you, although I did quote you. You said:

    leaders’ like Paul or Cruz that used to have ideological POV have given it up

    And I asked:

    What are the top ten ideological points of view that Paul and Cruz have given up?

    Thanks.

    BuDuh (9d2a50)

  148. Like they ever had ten. I’ll give you three:
    1. Legality.
    2. Morality.
    3. Individual freedom.
    4. Love of country.
    (It’s buy three get one free today.)

    nk (1d9030)

  149. I probably should have asked for examples of actions that they specifically took that caused them to give up on their ideological points of view.

    BuDuh (9d2a50)

  150. BuDuh, Paul and Cruz used to speak frequently about the need to limit to power of the state, limit spending, and balance our budget. They provided little to no pushback on Trump in these areas. Additionally, they were both strong supporters of doing what the constitution said and abandoned that when it came to how we determine what slate of electors to seat. They supported the idea that VP Pense had the discretion to choose which electors to seat.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  151. They supported the idea that VP Pense had the discretion to choose which electors to seat.

    They did?

    BuDuh (9d2a50)

  152. Paul voted with Trump 69% of the time:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/rand-paul/

    Cheney voted with Trump 93% of the time:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/liz-cheney/

    How does Cheney win the ideological consistency test with a score like that?

    Cruz was 92%:
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/ted-cruz/

    I have always thought of him to be the same brand of weasel as Cheney so I am not so concerned about his purported betrayal of ideological purity.

    Cheney, on the other hand, has a big task trying to sound an alarm about Trump after her record of showering him with years of love.

    BuDuh (5b4b2f)

  153. Looks like it was just Cruz that wanted to toss the constitution here.

    Sen Paul restricted himself to conspiracy mongering.

    WASHINGTON, D.C. — U.S. Senator Ted Cruz will intend, along with other senators and senators-elect, to an objecting to the certification of the 2020 Presidential Election results when Congress convenes on Jan. 6, according to a joint statement.

    “We intend to vote on January 6 to reject the electors from disputed states as not ‘regularly given’ and ‘lawfully certified’ (the statutory requisite), unless and until that emergency 10-day audit is completed,” the group said Saturday in a statement.

    In addition to Cruz, the group includes Sen. Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, Sen. James Lankford of Oklahoma, Sen. Steve Daines of Montana, Sen. John Kennedy of Louisiana, Sen. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee and Sen. Mike Braun of Indiana. Four senators-elect are also planning to object, including Cynthia Lummis of Wyoming, Roger Marshall of Kansas, Bill Hagerty of Tennessee and Tommy Tuberville of Alabama. The four are scheduled to be sworn in on Jan. 3 when the 117th Congress convenes. All 11 are Republicans.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  154. From your Rand Paul link:

    “The debate over whether or not there was fraud should occur, we never had any presentation in court where we actually looked at the evidence. Most of the cases were thrown out for lack of standing, which is a procedural way of not actually hearing the question,” Paul said on ABC’s “This Week.”

    Wasn’t this true at the time he was quoted?

    Did you happen to see the video I posted at 4:42? Clearly there are unresolved issues that are just now making it into the courts.

    BuDuh (5b4b2f)

  155. Cheney, on the other hand, has a big task trying to sound an alarm about Trump after her record of showering him with years of love.

    The issue isn’t about policy or how Cheney voted on matters. The issue is about Trump, who remains very influential in the Republican Party and continues to push what has been established to be a lie: that the election was stolen from him. Cheney understands that if the GOP is to remain viable and has any chance of reclaiming the House/Senate or even the WH in 2024, the Party must purge Trump and his influence from its midst. If not, it will remain the MAGA party where defending and sacrificing one’s integrity to protect an outright liar is the expectation But I think you know that.

    Dana (fd537d)

  156. No, at the time he said that it was a lie. It’s still a lie.

    -Never is a straight up lie. Cases were heard in MI and AZ and in PA the trump campaign withdrew their suit.
    -The comment about standing is a lie of omission. Those cases weren’t about fraud, they were about process.

    The video is in reference to a case in Antim county MI.

    The Antim county case is brought in relation to a question about legalized weed. The problem there was that the local clerk (A republican and trump suporter) screwed up by not updating software and loading the wrong master ballot. Once those were fixed the Dominion software counted correctly as confirmed by a livestreamed hand recount. Here’s a better summary of what’s going on from the Washington Examiner.

    The accusation that Dominion voting software was used to cheat has been disproven by the numerous hand recounts that have shown the same vote totals as the electronic counts.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  157. @150 I’ve learned a lot from you guys as well.

    I’m not wrong. Just opinionated. 😉

    whembly (123289)

  158. https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/the-cold-hard-facts-about-the-liz-cheney-saga

    There is no scenario in which galvanized anti-Trump forces purge the Trump supporters from the Republican Party — at least not anytime soon. But that NBC News poll did indicate that Trump’s support is slowly and gradually declining.

    Trump is not going to change much from here on out. He is much quieter in post-presidential life than he was as president, which is not quite the same as saying he’s quiet. As noted yesterday, in addition to insisting that he won the 2020 presidential election, he is embracing every conceivable conspiracy theory about the election and insisting that the January 6 Capitol riot, “right from the start, it was zero threat. Look, they went in, they shouldn’t have done it. Some of them went in, and they are hugging and kissing the police and the guards.” Trump is not going to get any saner from here on out.

    At this point, there is no plausible scenario where Donald Trump concedes he lost the 2020 presidential election, fair and square. Nor is there a plausible scenario where Trump leaves public life entirely, unless old age and Big Macs catch up with a man who turns 75 in July….

    ,…In part because of the decisions by Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube to ban him, Trump has much less of a media megaphone than he did at the beginning of the year. From mid 2015 to January 2021, barely a day went by without Trump saying or doing something that dominated the headlines.

    Despite Trump’s popularity among Republicans in polls, exactly how much influence he still has over the party is debatable… [He says the Texas special election doesn’t tell you anything]

    …At this point, Trump sounds as if he either definitely wants to run for president in 2024, or he wants to leave the door open to another campaign, to ensure he remains at the center of the discussion for Republicans through 2024.

    The fact that Trump told Fox News’ Maria Bartiromo that he was considering Florida governor Ron DeSantis to be his running mate is an intriguing indicator that Trump realizes other, younger Republican figures who are still in office are exciting the GOP grassroots. (By the way, under the Constitution, the president and vice president cannot represent the same state, but it would be a simple matter for Trump to move his legal residence to one of his other homes in another state.)[They can but Electors cannot vote for a president and a vice president both from their own state. In 2000, Dock Cheney had moved to Texas, but he re-registered in Wyoming]

    Trump is extremely unlikely to be vanquished and driven from the Republican Party in a grand conflict…. Trump…will happily enable more Democratic wins out of spite….While it is inconceivable that Trump would lose a fight over control of the party now, it is conceivable that the air may slowly leak out of the Trump balloon, month by month, year by year.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  159. I’m pretty sure you didn’t watch the video, Time.

    I have other obligations. I will catch up with you when I get back.

    BuDuh (1c160d)

  160. They supported the idea that VP Pense had the discretion to choose which electors to seat.

    156. BuDuh (9d2a50) — 5/6/2021 @ 8:22 am

    They did?

    They gave him a role that neither the constitution nor the 1887 Electoral Count Act did. I don’t think they definitively maybe said he had the final say, but at least that could have required a majority of both the House and the Senate to overrule him – or me’d have a constitutional crisis.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/us/politics/pence-trump-election.html

    Pence delayed in saying no to Donald Trump, but then wrote a little essay saying he had no right to do so.

    Later, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi wanted him to invoke the 25th amendment to remove Trump and Mike Pence wrote another essay saying he had no right to do that, either.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  161. Cheney, on the other hand, has a big task trying to sound an alarm about Trump after her record of showering him with years of love.

    Did she actually “shower him with love,” or just support policies she agreed with?
    Trumpers are taking the position that Stefanik is a much better choice for defending Trump’s legacy in policy — which they claim is what they really care about — even though she was actually less supportive of his policies. What she has done, and is still doing, is publicly stroke his ego. That is what Trump really cares about — and therefore that is what the Trumpified GOP cares about.

    The Republican Party platform for 2020 was Trump is great and we support whatever he wants. In today’s GOP, anyone who criticizes Trump and anyone disliked by Trump is bad. It’s that simple.

    Radegunda (cc822d)

  162. Budah, i watched part of it. But not the entire 17 minutes. Look forward to when you get back.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  163. GOP says that Liz Cheney is unacceptable because she won’t leave 1/6/2021 in the past and move on.
    GOP wants Cheney to be replaced by Elise Stefanik, who thinks the way forward is relitigating Nov. 2020.

    Radegunda (cc822d)


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