Patterico's Pontifications

11/22/2019

Trump Can’t Let Go of Crazy Conspiracy Theory Letting Russia off the Hook for the DNC Hack

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:52 am



Comical:

It’s like the expression of the faces of relatives around the Thanksgiving dinner table while the crazy uncle holds forth on chemtrails, except the crazy uncle can nuke you.

Also he can fire an FBI director and brag about how it’s a good thing he did because the FBI director was coming after him:

Well, so he’s corrupt domestically, but at least his foreign policy doesn’t suck, right?

Oh. I forgot he has to sell out the protesters in Hong Kong to try to get himself back to Square One, or something approaching it, in trade talks with China so he can declare a Big Win.

Four more years of this insanity? No thanks.

178 Responses to “Trump Can’t Let Go of Crazy Conspiracy Theory Letting Russia off the Hook for the DNC Hack”

  1. I think Putin must have implanted some kind of KGB control device where a normal person’s brain would be.

    There’s not really any other plausible explanation.

    Dave (1bb933)

  2. I may never grasp the presumption that, because Russia DID whatever it was, Ukraine (and Iran and Israel and Pakistan and UK and China WERE PREVENTED FROM and COULD NOT HAVE DONE, whatever it was.

    Of course I have read the novel and seen several movie versions of “Murder on the Orient Express”. EVERYBODY did it.

    By the way, can somebody explain in very small words exactly what it means to say that “Russia interfered with the 2016 election” ? Forged ballots? Hacked voting machines? Hacked vote-COUNTING machines? Gave Trump the “dirt” he requested on Hillary, which he used to make negative news reports? Gave Trump “dirt” which he SECRETLY used to blackmail Hillary supporters? I have a bunch of ideas about “interfering” but I don’t know which the Democrats and media are actually talking about.

    Pouncer (df6448)

  3. This is all so foolish. The DNC’s vaunted security was breached by a class of 3rd graders at PS 139.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  4. @2 If only someone like, say, a Senete intelligence commitee had put together a report on Russian interference that you could read…

    https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume1.pdf
    https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

    Manatour (c67e0d)

  5. There’s not really any other plausible explanation.

    Stupidity and incompetence

    –Hanlon

    Kevin M (19357e)

  6. Yes, Patterico, Trump’s words can be wild and inconsistent.
    However, his actions have been prudent and sensible.

    David in Cal (0d5a1d)

  7. Four more years of this insanity? No thanks.

    Which insanity would you prefer? The Presidential Trend Line is not pointing up.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  8. However, his actions have been prudent and sensible.

    Without uttering the word “judges”, which of these would you point to?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  9. The Senate report that says nothing actually happened. No registrations were deleted, no votes were changed, no tallies revised? That report? The one that says press / media exaggerations did more to “undermine confidence” in the election process than the actual Russian attempts to do so?

    That the one you mean?

    Pouncer (df6448)

  10. @9 Got it, so you knew about everything and were just pretending ignorance so you could argue in bad faith.

    Manatour (bf5092)

  11. Reading this post reminds me of Patterico’s Predictions for a Trump Presidency. He was right about everything (except “The GOP will finally pass some form of amnesty bill” but that will probably happen when the GOP tries to atone for supporting Trump).

    DRJ (15874d)

  12. The things that cannot be let go of. They are numerous and legion.

    PTw (91d450)

  13. He was right about everything (except “The GOP will finally pass some form of amnesty bill” but that will probably happen when the GOP tries to atone for supporting Trump).

    Trump is promising (yeah, yeah, I know…) to make DACA permanent as soon as he eliminates it.

    That would count as “some form of amnesty”, wouldn’t it?.

    Dave (1bb933)

  14. It would.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. It is bad faith to suggest that Ukraine did nothing AND Russia did nothing abdUk and China UK Iran etc etc did nothing? That the Us media alone did anything to undermine elections?

    Pouncer (df6448)

  16. Trump’s statement about China and President Xi is far worse than selling out the Hong Kong protesters:

    “We have to stand with Hong King, but I’m also standing with President Xi. He’s a friend of mine, he’s an incredible guy. We have to stand … if it weren’t for me, thousands of people would have been killed in Hong Kong right now.”

    He is claiming that his friend, President Xi, is an “incredible guy,” and would have freely slaughtered thousands of protesters (if it weren’t for Trump). This is the sort of person Trump counts as his friend, and describes as an “incredible guy”. Let that sink in.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  17. Not to mention Xi’s imprisonment, torture, organ havesting, rape and murder of the Uyghurs… and heavy-handed oppression of his people, and all the other heinous behavior of the murderous dictator.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  18. mr. president who is trump the donald who is the donald of the united states said that mr. putin who is the vladimir of russia told him at helsinki which is some place near scotland that russia did not interfere in our election and mr. donald believed him and that is good enough for every true blue american who loves america and elvis too

    nk (dbc370)

  19. I miss Obama.

    nk (dbc370)

  20. My favorite part of the Trump on Fox and Friends interview this morning was his whining about Ambassador Yovanovitch:

    She wouldn’t hang my picture in the embassy. She is in charge of the embassy. She wouldn’t hang it. It look a year-and-a-half, two years to get the picture up. She said bad things about me … This was not an angel this woman, okay?”

    Heh.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  21. Trump can’t let go.

    He cheered on a two year SC investigation into a crazy collusion conspiracy theory, then pivoted to tax returns, obstruction, inappropriate phone calls to foreign leaders, etc. — all to bring down the opposition, three years running.

    Let go, Orange Man!

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  22. 16. “Forget it, Dana. It’s ‘Chinatown.'”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. Hmm, le’s see, ambassadors are appointed by the President. If you were a President who appointed an ambassador who would not hang your picture in the embassy and said bad things about you, would you admit it?

    Yes, le’s is a word, next question!

    nk (dbc370)

  24. @20. OTOH, SAG refused to hang Reagan’s picture in their Hollywood offices for years for ratting out actors to Hoover. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  25. 13/14 – he shouldnt do it, unless Castro twin and the other of the CHC and friendly reps loudly vote “NO” during the House Impeachment vote, scuttling before it can reach the Senate.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  26. 3. Pouncer (df6448) — 11/22/2019 @ 8:56 am

    can somebody explain in very small words exactly what it means to say that “Russia interfered with the 2016 election” ?

    I think alot of people don’t want to. They’d rather have you use your imagaination.

    But in reality:

    1) Hacking of Democratic Party records (which may ahve been done for normal espionage reasons) combined with leaking a lot of not after it was discovered and stoped.

    2) Trolling, false ads and false flag web pages on social media

    3) Attempts to penetrate the election machinery but it started too late.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  27. @23. MacArthur Flu. Time to come home, dear.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. 23. Obama appointed Marie Yovanovich. He has that.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  29. And Trump’s whinging on about Yovanovitch not hanging his picture in the embassy for two years turns out to be, shockingly, incorrect:

    A person connected to Amb. Marie Yovanovich’s legal team, to @NBCNews’s @GeoffRBennett:

    “The Embassy in Kyiv hung the official photographs of the President, Vice President, and Secretary of State as soon as they arrived from Washington, DC.”

    Dana (cb74ca)

  30. @29. ‘official photographs as soon as they arrived from Washington, D.C.’

    Think about that.

    A case study in how ‘State’ operates.

    Couldn’t just download the official portraits, print out high rez images and frame ’em up. Nope. Had to be their produced portraits; their frames. Because, you know… “State.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. “And Trump’s whinging on about Yovanovitch not hanging his picture in the embassy for two years turns out to be, shockingly, incorrect:”
    Dana (cb74ca) — 11/22/2019 @ 10:42 am

    But did she remove the MLK bust?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  32. can somebody explain in very small words exactly what it means to say that “Russia interfered with the 2016 election” ?

    Volume 1, Chapter II (“Russian Active Measures Campaign”, 21 pages) and Chapter III (“Russian Hacking and Dumping Operations”, 29 pages) of the Mueller Report are very detailed, despite redactions.

    (As a slap in the face to President Trump and his acolytes, they did use multi-syllable words…sorry)

    Dave (1bb933)

  33. Dana @ 29.

    Yes, that should be the most unbelievable of the orange’s lies. That a career ambassador would not follow State Department protocols.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. I love the Never-trumper logic:

    1. Our Trade deficit with China is GREAT! We shouldn’t pressure them to do anything – otherwise its a TRADE WAR AND WE’LL ALL DIE!!

    2. We need to loudly and repeatedly criticize China over Hong Kong. And if they don’t respond, we need to criticize EVEN MORE LOUDLY! Maybe, even write them a nasty note.

    3. But don’t start a TRADE WAR!

    LOL.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  35. Here are some facts:

    1. Hong Kong is part of China
    2. China is great economic/military power with lots of nuclear weapons.
    3. We no military way to pressure China to do anything.
    4. We only have economic trade as a way to pressure China.
    5. We can talk and wag our finger, but that will accomplish nothing, except to annoy China.

    So, IOW, all these tears over Hong Kong are just useless emotion.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  36. I think his complaint about the portrait is to feed a sense of grievance in his supporters. He promised to fight for cultural recognition. By saying that they showed him disrespect he’s saying they showed his followers disrespect. So all the deplorables are in a fox hole together against the elites that look down on them. It doesn’t matter if the factual claim is true or not. The real message is “These elites don’t respect us so you shouldn’t listen to what they have to say.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  37. As for Comey, he was a backstabbing snake, who started an investigation of Trump WHILE Telling Trump he wasn’t being investigated. He was talking to Trump and being “Mr. Loyal Subordinate” (a truth telling – loyal subordinate) – all the while “taking notes” and waiting for the chance to destroy Trump. Fortunately for Trump and the USA, Trump fired Comey before he could do more damage.

    McCabe, aka Mr. Republican, with a Democrat politician wife, was scheming with Rosenstein on how to destroy TRump the day after Comey was fired.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  38. @35

    #1 is not currently true.
    #2 is correct.
    #3 is wrong.
    #4 is wrong.
    #5 is wrong.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  39. Couldn’t just download the official portraits, print out high rez images and frame ’em up. Nope. Had to be their produced portraits; their frames. Because, you know… “State.”

    I think it is a government rule that only officially sanctioned and government-printed photographs can be displayed in federal buildings, because the federal courts do it, too. I think we can all imagine why that might be the rule.

    The White House did not make the official photographs available until October 31, 2017 so no photographs could have been posted until after that. The Government Printing Office prints and frames the photographs. The GPO’s public notice that the official photographs were available wasn’t issued until November 29, 2017, so the photographs probably weren’t distributed until December 2017 or 2018. Further, I doubt embassies are at the top of the distribution list.

    DRJ (15874d)

  40. Or blame the ambassador for disrespecting Trump by not posting an internet photo. Because pragmatism.

    DRJ (15874d)

  41. If someone had published a novel in November 2016, about Comey, McCabe, Mueller, Sessions, and the schiffty Ukrainian Impeachment, it would’ve been trashed for being too weird/unbelievable even for fiction.

    The FBI/Deep state, MSM, Media Never trumpers, and DC Democrats have gone crazy. Trump have driven them insane, and made them show their true colors. No one is EVER going to believe peggy noonan, and the bulwark Boys are “Conservative” and an honest opposition to the liberal/Democrat takeover. No one is EVER going to believe the MSM are “objective” again. The D’s have outed themselves as “America Last” win at any cost, socialists.

    Trump has done one thing. He’s made everything VERY clear.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  42. it could also be that Trump is just a giant baby so obsessed with himself that he can’t process anything except as how it impacts his ego.

    Can anyone think of a reason that doesn’t make him look bad?

    Time123 (797615)

  43. #38 your disagreement with fact No. 1 – shows you’re either ignorant or playing word games. Not interested.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  44. It is clear Trump likes conspiracies.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. rcocean. If you disagree with Time123, explain the reasons why.

    DRJ (15874d)

  46. @43, I should have said it’s very incomplete, because it’s not entirely wrong. The facts are that HK has been able to offer their citizens more freedom and self determination than the rest of China. China is trying to take them over and they’re fighting back. Good for them. Because they’re a separate City State trying to maintain their freedom. This is a different situation than if an existing city went into rebellion.

    But you don’t care. Because it seems that the most import thing to you is how things reflect on Trump. Since he doesn’t care it can’t be allowed to be treated as a thing worth caring about because that might diminish him.

    But you are correct that my characterization of it as ‘wrong’ was not fully accurate and i apologize for that.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  47. I’m going to respond more fully, see the bolded parts below.

    1. Hong Kong is part of China. Incomplete. HK citizens have had more freedom and self rule than other ethnically Chinese cities since the British left.
    2. China is great economic/military power with lots of nuclear weapons.True
    3. We no military way to pressure China to do anything. There are many ways we can apply military pressure to China. One would be to increase our military presense in the SK. Another would be build an additional carrier group specifically for that region. A third would be increase our patrol of international waters that they’re trying to claim. A fourth would be to sell weapons to Taiwan. There are any options short of bombing them that we could consider.
    4. We only have economic trade as a way to pressure China. In their goal to increase their influence china needs to make agreements with other countries. By demonstrating that the US way offers more advantages for them we can make it harder China to secure those agreements. Things that can impact this include; showing we respect these peoples and support their rights to self government. Showing that we’re a reliable partner who keeps our commitments. Showing that we’ll adhere to our principles even when they’re not our best outcome in the short term.
    5. We can talk and wag our finger, but that will accomplish nothing, except to annoy China. Many of the neighboring countries have democratically elected governments. Showing the people that vote for the leaders of those countries that the US cares and objects to oppression in their region can create a situation where it’s politically advantageous for those leaders to work with the US. Additionally, the Chinese people care about how they’re perceived. If Xi’s actions in HK are viewed as having embarrassed China it weakens him politically.

    None of these things are single 100% effective action. They all have some costs. They all are definitely more than Nothing.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  48. Thank you for taking the time to write that, Time123.

    DRJ (15874d)

  49. Predictions for a Trump Presidency.

    Funny, didn’t see a 28,000 Dow or record low unemployment in there. Odd.

    PTw (894877)

  50. Given that and his secret and unsecret meetings with Silicon valley titans and the preference cascade that might be unleashed in that sector, the whole map might be red

    urbanleftbehind (ec8980)

  51. #1 is not currently true.

    Actually, it is. Honk Kong is a semi-autonomous part of the sovereign nation called “China.” At some point, after everyone who signed the agreement is dead, China is free to incorporate Hong Kong utterly with zero legal issues. There is some concern they may jump the gun.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  52. I may never grasp the presumption that, because Russia DID whatever it was, Ukraine (and Iran and Israel and Pakistan and UK and China WERE PREVENTED FROM and COULD NOT HAVE DONE, whatever it was.

    Why presume? There is ample evidence in the Mueller report that Putin directed a “sweeping and systematic” effort to undermine the 2016 presidential election. There is no evidence of other nations doing anywhere near such a thing.

    Paul Montagu (1fe3d1)

  53. However, his actions have been prudent and sensible.

    Like his decision to cut-and-run from Syrian Kurdistan?

    Paul Montagu (1fe3d1)

  54. ”There is no evidence of other nations doing anywhere near such a thing.”
    Paul Montagu (1fe3d1) — 11/22/2019 @ 1:09 pm

    Odd that no one would find what they’re not looking for.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  55. It would take a bunker-buster to dislodge the FakeNews narratives swirling around in Trump’s diminished brain.

    Paul Montagu (1fe3d1)

  56. Odd that no one would find what they’re not looking for.

    And you would know the IC was not looking how?

    Paul Montagu (1fe3d1)

  57. Release the Kraken Walrus!

    Dave (1bb933)

  58. oops, wrong thread, lol

    Dave (1bb933)

  59. Trump “stands with” both the HK protesters and President Xi. A grand act of moral equivalency, exactly as you should expect from an unprincipled coward.

    In effect, he is saying, “Yeah, yeah, I know it’s tough for those defenseless little nobodies, but in the end China is more important and powerful, and I want to be on the winning side of history.”

    Imagine if Ronald Reagan had stood at the Berlin Wall and said, “Mr. Gorbachev, I can see why some people would like you to tear down this wall, but in the end I know you have to do what’s best for the Soviet Union, and I’ll stand with you one hundred percent on that.”

    Trump stands with Xi against the suffocating Hong Kong protesters, at precisely the moment when a simple word of unequivocal moral support from the supposed leader of the free world would be exactly the inspiration they need to keep up their fight.

    But of course they’re going to lose in the end, so why set yourself up as an opponent of the eventual winners, right?

    Up next on The Cowardly Apprentice….

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  60. There is no joy in TrumpWorld, mighty Horowitz has struck out:

    NYT: Russia Inquiry Review Is Said to Criticize F.B.I. but Rebuff Claims of Biased Acts

    In a phone call to “Fox & Friends” on Friday, Mr. Trump played up the initial revelations to claim that “they were spying on my campaign and it went right to the top and everybody knows it and now we’re going to find out” and “they tried to overthrow the presidency.” The accounts of Mr. Horowitz’s findings do not support that assertion.

    And in other crucial respects, the draft inspector general report is said not to corroborate conspiracy theories and insinuations offered by Mr. Trump and his allies about the early stages of the Russia investigation, before Mr. Mueller was appointed as special counsel and took it over.

    For example, the draft report also concludes that the F.B.I. had enough evidence to meet the legal standard for opening the investigation, though Mr. Horowitz emphasized that the bar is low, the people said.

    The report is also said to conclude that Joseph Mifsud, a Russia-linked professor who told a Trump campaign official that Russia had damaging information on Mrs. Clinton in the form of hacked Democratic emails — a key fact used to open the investigation — was not an F.B.I. informant. That undercuts an assertion of conservative critics of the inquiry.

    None of the evidence used to open the investigation came from the C.I.A. or from a notorious dossier of claims about Trump-Russia ties compiled by Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence agent whose research was funded by Democrats, the report concludes, according to the people briefed on it.

    Dave (1bb933)

  61. Rcocean. If you disagree with Time123, explain the reasons why.

    Sorry, I didn’t realize you were thread Boss. Will do better next time, SIR.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  62. @59. “Imagine if Ronald Reagan… “

    ‘Course it was up to the then East Germany to manage the BW, not Gorby, but that’s essentially what Reagan did- and Gorby did do what was best for the CCCP: he ended it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. Sorry, I didn’t realize you were thread Boss. Will do better next time, SIR.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 11/22/2019 @ 2:58 pm

    I think DRJ is one of the most respected commenters here, and her temperance is why she’s a moderator.

    Why not respond to this invitation to share your opinion cheerfully instead of like someone who just wants to shut down criticism of Moscow Donnie?

    Dustin (cafb36)

  64. Hmmmmm. And Hong Kong is a problem for busy-body Americans because????

    Let me check my history book– nope, wasn’t Hope or Crosby; seems Hong Kong was ceded back to China via the Sino-British Joint Declaration in 1984 signed by =drumroll= conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. So Boris Johnson should really be waving the Union Jack on this one.

    “Vo ist der Royal Air Force?” – ‘Battle of Britain,’ 1969

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. @49. Hurd had nothing to lose and pretty much torpedoed this waste of time and resources yesterday with a fairly rational POV. Sure, Trump’s a scumbag, but not scumbaggie-enough to remove from office. He should have been censured the day after Helsinki— but short-term, selfish self-interests took priority. Polls show the country is moving away from impeachment, too– but they’ll likely go head and do it anyway. A trial will backfire on the D’s as well, as the witnesses go on parade. Trump’s been beating raps all his life; he’s going to beat this one, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  66. Sorry, I didn’t realize you were thread Boss. Will do better next time, SIR.

    You should treat DRJ with the respect she’s earned.

    Dave (fcd131)

  67. I think DRJ is one of the most respected commenters here, and her temperance is why she’s a moderator.

    You should treat DRJ with the respect she’s earned.

    I think I’ve seen this movie before. Y’all gathering your passive-aggressive forces to provoke another banning? Rather selective when the powers at be decide who is and who is not giving proper answers. Calling out rc but letting the likes of Time123 ( not that I don’t much, much more prefer defending myself) and such pass. Quite the game you’re playing.

    PTw (356aa4)

  68. rcocean. If you disagree with Time123, explain the reasons why.

    I disagree with this telling another (adult) commenter what to say or do. They are free to say what they want, as long as it doesn’t break P’s commenting rules. But with that, the individual who opts not to explain their reasons why, or declines to lay out a cogent argument and instead throws out unsupported jibber-jabber, signals readers to not take them seriously and to skip on to the next comment. We already know that some commenters who are Trump loyalists, regularly dismiss people like our host and myself as irrelevant “Never Trumpers,” so why would anyone expect anything other than non-responsive dismissiveness when challenged?

    Dana (cb74ca)

  69. No one asked me but hey, it’s the internet.

    1. I think RC should post or not as they see fit. I doubt they will respond on the merits either way.
    2. Kevin M’s comment on RC’s point no 1 was better than mine. Thank you.
    3. @67-PTw, chill out. No one is talking about banning. I thought DJR was just offering unsolicited advice, not acting as a mod, but i could be wrong. Also the rest of your comment is garbled and I can’t tell what you’re trying to say, other than that you don’t like me.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  70. @60, I’m going wait for the report to be published before drawing conclusions. I’ll put my marker down now though, if it shows systemic problems / abuse of power I’m down with prosecution.
    If it shows errors or actions that are not material I’m down with mocking anyone that still pitches conspiracy theories or ignores the findings.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  71. ’We already know that some commenters who are Trump loyalists, regularly dismiss people like our host and myself as irrelevant “Never Trumpers,” so why would anyone expect anything other than non-responsive dismissiveness when challenged?’
    Dana (cb74ca) — 11/22/2019 @ 3:45 pm

    If that’s your standard, then apply it. Consistently.

    Trumpkin, Trumpalo, Trump humper, butt gerbil, Trump superfan, etc.

    But #NeverTrump, a term coined by Trump critics themselves, merits calling out. LOL

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  72. I disagree with this telling another (adult) commenter what to say or do.

    It seemed like a friendly suggestion, and an effort to elicit something more constructive from rcocean than his usual nonstop hateful rage.

    With that said, the actual outcome was entirely predictable.

    Dave (fcd131)

  73. Four more years of this insanity? No thanks.

    What part distresses you most? The booming economy? Record employment? All the stellar judges appointed? Lack of new military adventures? The ongoing construction of border wall? No domestic terrorist attacks? Reduction of regulations? End to the Obamacare mandate? Respect for constitutional separation of powers? Support for the police and veterans?

    Or is it just the mean tweets directed at people that call him every awful name in the book? And hate the guts of every traditionally patriotic American.

    Let me guess, withdrawing any electoral opposition to whichever socialist the dems present is the principled conservatives only move. Riiiigght.

    lee (f8d029)

  74. 70 Time123 (b0628d) — 11/22/2019 @ 3:59 pm

    Agreed on all points.

    Dave (fcd131)

  75. “There is no joy in TrumpWorld, mighty Horowitz has struck out:
    NYT: Russia Inquiry Review Is Said to Criticize F.B.I. but Rebuff Claims of Biased Acts”
    Dave (1bb933) — 11/22/2019 @ 2:33 pm

    Stevens’ prosecutors whitewash redux, as predicted.

    Clinesmith added material to the bottom of an email from an official at another government agency that was included in a FISA renewal application, according to The NYT. Clinesmith included the email in an affidavit that was presented to another FBI official to sign as part of the process to submit the renewal application.

    CNN reported Thursday night that an unidentified FBI official was under investigation in the matter. Michael Horowitz, the inspector general, referred the lawyer, since identified as Clinesmith, to federal prosecutors as part of a criminal investigation.

    Clinesmith resigned from the FBI two months ago following an interview with Horowitz’s team, The NYT reported. He was removed from the special counsel’s investigation in February 2018 after the OIG found text messages he wrote criticizing Trump.

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/22/fbi-lawyer-kevin-clinesmith-russia/

    Imagine now if a Trump flunkie had done that with Biden.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  76. #60-The NYT’s? LOL.

    “It is said” by “people who have been briefed”.

    Little early for the fat lady I’m thinking…

    lee (f8d029)

  77. I think I’ve seen this movie before. Y’all gathering your passive-aggressive forces to provoke another banning? Rather selective when the powers at be decide who is and who is not giving proper answers. Calling out rc but letting the likes of Time123 ( not that I don’t much, much more prefer defending myself) and such pass. Quite the game you’re playing.

    PTw (356aa4) — 11/22/2019 @ 3:41 pm

    Takes a lot to get banned here, but there’s no need for coordination. Why do you guys get so upset at a simple ‘if you disagree, explain why’?

    Is it so bad to get beyond ‘y’all don’t like Trump therefore you’re a conspiracy’? Why does Trump support seem to always entail fear of being a victim?

    Dustin (cafb36)

  78. If that’s your standard, then apply it. Consistently.

    Trumpkin, Trumpalo, Trump humper, butt gerbil, Trump superfan, etc.

    But #NeverTrump, a term coined by Trump critics themselves, merits calling out. LOL

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 11/22/2019 @ 4:03 pm

    I have never, and would never use terms like to describe people who hold a different view of Trump than do I. Why would I ever consider such a thing? A Trump loyalist is not remotely on a par with the descriptors you used above.

    It’s not the term “Never Trumper,” it’s the sneer that typically comes with the accusation.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  79. @62.

    “‘Course it was up to the then East Germany to manage the BW, not Gorby, but that’s essentially what Reagan did- and Gorby did do what was best for the CCCP: he ended it.”

    If you are prepared to equate Reagan directly declaring, in the most public of settings, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall,” with “essentially” playing the same moral equivalency game Trump plays by saying he “has to” support the HK protesters, but that he personally supports Xi Jinping at the same time, then there is no debating with you. You’ve sold your rational faculty to the cult. I’m sorry for you.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  80. Correction: “the term “Trump Loyalist” is not remotely… “ is what I should have said.

    Also want to add that I don’t disdain people who support and/or are loyal to Trump. However, I don’t think the same is true of those here who dismiss commenters with a “Never Trump” accusation.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  81. ’Also want to add that I don’t disdain people who support and/or are loyal to Trump. However, I don’t think the same is true of those here who dismiss commenters with a “Never Trump” accusation.’
    Dana (cb74ca) — 11/22/2019 @ 4:40 pm

    Do you also disdain the critics who use the terms I mentioned? If so, then call it out.

    But if not, then sorry Dana this is laughable.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  82. @64.

    “Hmmmmm. And Hong Kong is a problem for busy-body Americans because????”

    It is not a question of “busy-body” anything. It is a question of basic moral decency. People are struggling for the survival of a semi-free way of life against the clear and present danger of a crackdown by the leadership of the most influential totalitarian surveillance state in the region. No one expects Trump to invade China or drop bombs on the Chinese-HK police. A simple, “I hope the protesters win their freedom” would be sufficient. More than sufficient, as it would show that America, the land to which oppressed people have traditionally turned for inspiration and moral support, was still there as a “shining city on a hill.”

    To have Trump spit on them by saying he stands with the communist dictator who is about to snuff out their freedom movement is beyond dispiriting. He might as well have dropped bombs on THEM.

    But you go ahead and keep defending this enabler of evil. Better red than dead, right?

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  83. “He might as well have dropped bombs on THEM.”

    Oh please. Basically what Trump is saying is both sides have merit. The protesters have a right to pursue their liberty, China has a right to govern their possessions. He is setting the stage for mediation.

    Or perhaps you would prefer Trump throw all in for the protesters and tell China they don’t have a right to govern their possessions.

    Which would likely piss off China and the tanks would roll. Then you could blame Trump for that.

    See, thats the problem with Trump critics. It’s become apparent it’s always damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t. It’s all so predictable.

    lee (f8d029)

  84. if mr. trump who is the father-in-law of the trump-kushner crime family upsets the chinesers and they don’t give money to the kushners anymore who will feed ivanka’s babies?

    they will have to go on welfare and food stamps and maybe sell their rolls royces and fire their chauffeur too

    it’s important to think these things through

    nk (dbc370)

  85. Both sides don’t have merit.
    China is trying to abolish democracy in Hong Kong.

    Trump is doing the exact thing conservatives and Republicans (the two are no longer the same, even for appearance’s sake) lambasted Obama for doing in regard to Iran’s suppression of popular dissent.

    Kishnevi (9a5a41)

  86. Do you also disdain the critics who use the terms I mentioned? If so, then call it out.

    But if not, then sorry Dana this is laughable.

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 11/22/2019 @ 4:45 pm

    YOU ARE A TROLL! All you do is obnoxiously screw with the conversation and refuse to engage anyone on equal terms, ever! Who cares what you think?

    Who are you to judge and generalize and demand people ‘disdain’ those who use terms you don’t like?

    Just quote the person you’re so mad at and criticize them and leave it at that. Do you disdain Trump for bragging he grabs women by their genitalia? Or is your victimization act strictly intended to be a way to shut down criticism of Trump?

    Dustin (cafb36)

  87. Kishnevi, is Hong Kong a sovereign nation?

    lee (f8d029)

  88. If Dana doesn’t want me to say butt-gerbil on her threads, I won’t butt-gerbil on her threads. A good tactic is a tactic which is fun for your people, and when a tactic drags on too long it becomes a drag.

    But Munroe is classic troll. His modus operandi here is always to derail the topic away from the Fifth Avenue fancy boys f***ups. Always.

    nk (dbc370)

  89. fancy *boy’s*

    Don’t want to leave out the hyphen.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. nk (dbc370) — 11/22/2019 @ 5:07 pm

    Happyfeet! Get off of nk’s computer! I command you.

    felipe (023cc9)

  91. It doesn’t matter.
    China may own Hong Kong. It doesn’t own the people of Hong Kong.

    Used to be that only Communists defended Red China….

    Kishnevi (9a5a41)

  92. @35.

    1. Hong Kong is part of China
    2. China is great economic/military power with lots of nuclear weapons.
    3. We no military way to pressure China to do anything.
    4. We only have economic trade as a way to pressure China.
    5. We can talk and wag our finger, but that will accomplish nothing, except to annoy China.

    Implied conclusion: America should not say anything or show any moral support for the people being crushed by communist China, because that will “annoy” them, and we wouldn’t want to do that.

    Trumpism is a cult of cowardice. And they’ve moved beyond rationalizing their support for a coward, to actually being proud of his cowardice. Amazing.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  93. Also, what do you think the president should do to help the HK protesters, and what do you think China would do in response to those actions?

    lee (f8d029)

  94. Anti-Trumpers:Trump is going to get us in a war!

    Also anti-Trumpers:Trump is cowardly not provoking China to war!!

    Damned if he does…

    lee (f8d029)

  95. lee (f8d029) — 11/22/2019 @ 5:29 pm

    Oh, real simple. Say the people of Hong Kong have the undeniable right to devide how to rule themselves. Point out that if China keeps on proving itself to be totalitarian, it will be very hard to get Congress to approve any trade deal.

    Kishnevi (9a5a41)

  96. @ 67-PTw, chill out.

    OK, this is all I’m going to say here in regards to this and the several other passive-agressive comments…This “chill out” nonsense…you all seem to be fairly well educated people. Yet you still can’t see how ludicrously transparent your comments are. Even Dana, who kinda seems a little put off by all the passive-aggression…well, Munroe called that out so not interested in repeating it…but she still has to clutch pearls at the term NeverTrump. “chill out” when, relative to the hyperventilating from so many NeverTrumpers here…and from Time123, who I gave sooo many opportunities to explain himself that just hours ago on another thread he broke down and thanked me for it (though at this point I question the sincerity). Ah, but this is, as I indicated on the other thread, is the game. Provoke and then cry about being insulted or your feelz. And thus the projection with “chill out”…and similar. It is to laugh.

    PTw (356aa4)

  97. Also, what do you think the president should do to help the HK protesters, and what do you think China would do in response to those actions?

    lee (f8d029) — 11/22/2019 @ 5:29 pm

    Reagan would say China is an evil empire. He would stand proud. The tyrants killing unarmed protesters are cowards compared to a democratic leader speaking plainly about evil. The chinese wouldn’t do anything to us… and probably would limit the blood they are shedding.

    Trump whimpers any time Turkey tells us what we’re going to do so obviously this is extremely unrealistic. We also can’t have a discussion about anything without someone saying they are offended, and no one wants to learn math, our teachers can’t control a classroom, and cars look stupid.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  98. It is to laugh.

    PTw

    Harumph!

    Dustin (cafb36)

  99. PTw (356aa4) — 11/22/2019 @ 5:41 pm

    For your information, DRJ is a very big reason this blog is what it is. If you have a few minutes or hours, stroll through the archives, read her posts and comments from the days she was a main poster here, and you will understand why people here respect her so much.

    Kishnevi (9a5a41)

  100. @95- so you are going with HK is a sovereign nation?

    lee (f8d029)

  101. How hard is it to understand that China has no right to suppress dissent no matter what the status of Hong Kong is? Just like they had no right to suppress dissent in Tienamen Square.

    To everyone else, notice what Trumpism leads to: the attempt to justify a totalitarian regime.

    Kishnevi (9a5a41)

  102. @82. Rubbish. Hong Kong is already a pretty shining city as is; certainly buffed brighter than crumbling Detroit. You really should take this up with the previous landlord who signed away the lease [Margaret Thatcher] or quill a very nasty letter to the London Times. But it’s not an American matter.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  103. Sorry, I didn’t realize you were thread Boss. Will do better next time, SIR.

    What if I said please?

    DRJ (15874d)

  104. 201- So you’re more a Jefferson Davis type opposing Lincoln’s war of northern aggression that killed around 800,000 Americans to stop the protesters then?

    That’s OK. I won’t argue with you. Trumpism leads to an America first totalitarian regime. Riiigght.

    lee (f8d029)

  105. I disagree with this telling another (adult) commenter what to say or do.

    Except if it’s me. You are fine with that, apparently.

    DRJ (15874d)

  106. @93.

    Also, what do you think the president should do to help the HK protesters, and what do you think China would do in response to those actions?

    I think he should do exactly what I said. Show people fighting for a dying breath of liberty that the world outside, and particularly the nation that all such people turn to as a “shining city on a hill,” still stands for the liberty those poor people fighting for.

    He doesn’t have to “do” anything, practically or militarily. All he has to do is say, without qualifications and equivocation and moral equivalency arguments, that he personally, and America as a nation, are spiritually aligned with those trying to preserve some semblance of freedom and dignity against the overwhelming force of an authoritarian regime. Period. That’s it. Simple and clear.

    That’s what Reagan did when he called the Soviet Union an “evil empire” at the very height of the Cold War. He showed a spine, and in the process emboldened those souls within the Soviet Union dreaming of freedom. But of course, Reagan did that because he actually did believe in freedom, and actually did sympathize with those living under communist tyranny.

    Why can’t Trump say that? I already told you my answer: He’s a moral coward. Why can’t you criticize him for NOT doing that? You tell me. (Although I note that you, like the other Trump defenders in this thread, continually come back to variations on “And then what will China do?” or “That will only annoy China.” That smells like melted backbone to me. But I suppose in the era of Trump, melted backbone counts as “winning.”)

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  107. PTw,

    1. In the other post i was completely convinced that NJrob had said something he didn’t say. I went back to find it and prove I was right and you were wrong. It wasn’t there. I was arguing against something he didn’t say. When my statements were applied to what he did say they were wrong. I felt, and feel, embarrassed for the mistake. That’s the plain fact of it. I don’t think what he said was correct. But given how badly I missed the mark I’m letting it go. I also don’t want to detract from a sincere apology by saying sorry, and then making a much smaller point in the same theme.

    2. I said chill out because no one had suggested banning anyone until you brought it up and based on moderation history I didn’t think it was a likely outcome. I was trying to be light hearted in the same way I took your statement Nah, that’s for chicken s little cowards. Homie don’t play dat. I thought that was intended to be a bit of joke and not any kind of an insult. In general your comments, while I often disagree with them, are not overly emotional and I wasn’t trying to imply that they were or that your statements should be disregarded or ‘u mad bro’ or any other slight. I’m sorry if it didn’t come across as I meant it. I’m a bit garbage as a writer so I’ll own that.

    3. I like this blog. I learn things from people who are educated in areas I’m not and are willing to explain them. There’s a minimum of trolling because the mods here are pretty great. I can have an honest conversation with people who i disagree with about things. That’s last one describes you. When i disagree with you i get the sense that you’re arguing in good faith.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  108. 106- insults aside (DRJ, where are you?), Trump did make noises in favor of the protesters, just not unequivocally.

    Which, by the way, modern China is not equivocal to the USSR. We didn’t have a trade deficit with the USSR for example.

    Trump is using statecraft, even if you will never admit it.

    lee (f8d029)

  109. DSCA, what’s your problem with the motor city? It’s got it’s challenges but the downtown is getting pretty cool and the greater metro area has some of the best places to live in the country. Also, some of the coolest things every created are created in Detroit, or the greater metro area.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  110. @97. ‘Reagan would say China is an evil empire’

    Before or after the eggroll:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us4mK6dx1U

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  111. @109. Okay- howzabout crumbling Philadelphia? Or Kansas City? Or Scranton, PA? Feel better?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  112. @79. You’re catching on; there’s nothing to debate: it isn’t an American issue, ol’bean.

    Take it up w/Boris Johnson.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  113. Yeah, let’s pile on Kansas City. Place is a dump. Looks like god took a dump on a parking lot.

    (j/k I’ve been there. It’s fine. Ford assembles the F150 there.)

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  114. @ Munroe,

    Do you also disdain the critics who use the terms I mentioned? If so, then call it out.

    But if not, then sorry Dana this is laughable.

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 11/22/2019 @ 4:45 pm

    Sorry Munroe, it’s laughable that you think I should do your bidding. You can’t be serious.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  115. I don’t think 9/10 of the stuff he posts is serious. Even if it is, whatabout Hillaries emails and the Mifsurd? No one cared about that.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  116. I mean look at the Chamber of commerce map. It’s a total hellscape.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  117. 113
    Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.

    Kishnevi (ab2b70)

  118. @ PTw,

    Even Dana, who kinda seems a little put off by all the passive-aggression…well, Munroe called that out so not interested in repeating it…but she still has to clutch pearls at the term NeverTrump. “chill out” when, relative to the hyperventilating from so many NeverTrumpers here

    Oh I’m not clutching at my pearls, PTw, I don’t wear them when I blog. What I am doing is making some observations. One of them being that when I am referred to as a “Never Trumper,” it typically is an accusation accompanied by a sneer. When I use the term “Trump loyalist,” I am not sneering, nor even using it in an accusatory manner, but rather as an identifier. (I don’t think anyone here would argue that rcocean has displayed unwavering loyalty to Trump.) And yes, I certainly have, in the past, attempted to draw out debate and discussion from said commenter(s) but I think I can safely say, it has been to little avail, and therefore I don’t see the point of making the effort anymore. I’ve also never told anyone to stop referring people to “Never Trumpers,” or to stop using the term altogether. As far as the other terms suggested by Munroe, I wouldn’t use them because I think they’re rude and crass and not for me.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  119. I disagree with this telling another (adult) commenter what to say or do.

    Except if it’s me. You are fine with that, apparently.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2019 @ 6:20 pm

    I have no idea what you mean. I’m not telling you what you can and can’t say. You have the right to say what you want, I have the right to disagree.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  120. And apologies to P for apparently stirring up a hornet’s nest on his post.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  121. @117- If you crave to top HongKong w/KC, rottsaruck. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. When I use the term “Trump loyalist,” I am not sneering, nor even using it in an accusatory manner, but rather as an identifier

    I won’t argue your intentions, but “Trump loyalist” is awfully lose to “Trump cultist”.

    By and large, most Trump supporters are America firsters, and Trump is just the standard bearer. We are too often identified as a personality cult, when we are not. We’re just thrilled to have a POTUS that loves America and puts Her citizens first.

    I hope that helps.

    lee (f8d029)

  123. I’m proud to be called #NeverTrump. I #NeverTrump. Trumpery is buggery.

    nk (dbc370)

  124. @121 the original post highlighted some ways in which trump is nuts.

    On topic responses can be grouped into 3 broad categories.

    “yeah”
    “yeah, but here’s more words.”
    “CORN FOR THE CORN GOD. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!! CoRn TRUMP AND CoUnTrY!!!”

    Given that reality you didn’t take us much off course imo.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  125. Thank for your polite comment, lee. I personally don’t really see “loyalist” and “cultist” as as close. To me, I see “loyalists” as those who defend Trump at every turn, yet still have a line that is too far for even for them. (There line of delineation is usually much farther down the road than mine…) I see “cultist” as referring to those for whom there is no line whatsoever. No matter what. I’m uncomfortable making that big of a leap, for better or worse.

    Dana (cb74ca)

  126. As for HK, the endless mid east wars are a repudiation of the effort to make the world in America’s image. We are having enough trouble keeping the boys out of the girls bathroom here at home. Let the world help themselves.

    lee (f8d029)

  127. nk (dbc370) — 11/22/2019 @ 5:07 pm

    9/10, brilliant!

    One point deducted because the real happyfeet would have worked in a stripper pole reference.

    Dave (1bb933)

  128. @123, Lee, good comment. If I’d seen it sooner I wouldn’t have posted 125. I have some substantive comments about that and 127. But I’ll hold them until another time. My last sincere comment was to PTw. Given that the ones that followed were somewhat rude jokes I don’t know that I can engage in a way that’s productive.

    It’s like the Jon Stewart problem, hard to take the clown nose on and off rapidly.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  129. @128 happyfeet was god awful. Please don’t encourage anyone to emulate it.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  130. @123. Reagan cultists want a Reagan dime, Reagan schools, Reagan airports, Reagan sewage plants and his mug on Mt. Rushmore. Trump loyalists want a helicopter, a hot wife, a cool mistress, a million in the bank and a zillion excuses on how to get away with it all.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  131. Yeah, happyfeet once told me* that I could never be a real pikachu and now I know what he meant. A stripper pole never even entered my mind. Instead, I mused over “chauffeur” or “butler”.

    * No, not really. (At 1:00 et seq)

    nk (dbc370)

  132. Please don’t encourage anyone to emulate it.

    I’m confident that neither encouragement from me, nor lack thereof, will have the slightest influence on what nk posts…

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  133. DCSCA, nice of you to inform us what others want, like you know, but what do YOU want?

    lee (f8d029)

  134. I gotta admit though, my own helicopter would be pretty cool…

    lee (f8d029)

  135. @110. typo:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us4mK6dx1nU

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/22/2019 @ 6:43 pm

    China in 1984 is not China in 2019.

    Then again, no matter how many red hats they sell, neither is the USA. China is utterly dependent on the USA. Hopelessly so. Trump “stands with Xi” because he is a coward who can screech about AOC but can’t actually lead the free world (nor, I suppose, does he really recognize the concept of the free world). Reagan would recognize the big picture moment, because that’s often exactly what he did. It’s not that I’m a ‘cultist’ that I recognize his success on the foreign stage. There’s a reason even Obama tried to ape Reagan. Know it alls will forever tell us George Washington and Ronald Reagan achtualllly weren’t that great. Oh well.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  136. Remember when Roosevelt stood with Stalin? Sometimes a leader has to think of the greater good.

    Toy dogs still yap around his heels though…

    lee (f8d029)

  137. Yeah, like I was just telling Kellyanne the other day, “Kellyanne”, I said, “those Hong Kong protesters are just like Hitler and Tojo.”

    nk (dbc370)

  138. More like American interests were a priority over the way Stalin treated his own people. Nice try though.

    lee (f8d029)

  139. @123 Why why why then do you insist on following a man who gets all his intelligence information from Vladimir Putin, marries mostly E. Bloc women, borrows his money primarily from German banks funded by Russians, does his manufacturing in China, and has all his current property development overseas. He has more ties to foreign former communists than anyone else in government other than maybe Bernie Sanders.

    Nic (896fdf)

  140. More like American interests were a priority over the way Stalin treated his own people. Nice try though.

    You’re confusing FDR with Armand Hammer and the famous quote “When it comes time to hang the capitalists, they will vie with each other for the rope contract.”

    nk (dbc370)

  141. The Chinese, an older and wiser race than the Russians, will sell the capitalists the rope.

    nk (dbc370)

  142. To be fair, Bernie is a current communist, not a former one.

    lee (f8d029)

  143. I’m pretty sure Russia is no longer communist.

    Otherwise, Reagan’s legacy s going to take quite the hit…

    lee (f8d029)

  144. He has more ties to foreign former communists than anyone else in government other than maybe Bernie Sanders.

    Marital ties to two of them.

    nk (dbc370)

  145. I’m also pretty sure Russian is not a race.

    But now I’m being Pedantic. Apologies.

    lee (f8d029)

  146. @144 Like I said, foreign former communists and former or not, they sure as heck ain’t Americans.

    Nic (896fdf)

  147. I’m also pretty sure Russian is not a race.

    But now I’m being Pedantic. Apologies.

    Not at all, dear chap. Think nothing of it. It’s me taking poetic license:

    Fair fa’ your honest, sonsie face,
    Great chieftain o’ the pudding-race!
    Aboon them a’ yet tak your place,
    Painch, tripe, or thairm:
    Weel are ye wordy o’a grace
    As lang’s my arm.

    nk (dbc370)

  148. Of course you are right. No American president should ever in his life had any foreign dealings in his background as a private citizen.

    Of all the arguments for hating Trump, that one is definitely the most persuasive.

    lee (f8d029)

  149. @149 No, but you are saying that the America first group is following a person who has historically put America very very very far down on his list, further down than basically anyone else currently in government, and isn’t putting it first now. He talks the talk (under the right circumstances if you don’t listen too closely), but he can’t even get out of his chair for the walk.

    Nic (896fdf)

  150. Blah blah blah.

    See #73.

    lee (f8d029)

  151. @136. And Reagan is dead.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  152. @142. At Walmart!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  153. CNN Exclusive: Giuliani associate willing to tell Congress Nunes met with ex-Ukrainian official to get dirt on Biden

    A lawyer for an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani tells CNN that his client is willing to tell Congress about meetings the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee had in Vienna last year with a former Ukrainian prosecutor to discuss digging up dirt on Joe Biden.

    The attorney, Joseph A. Bondy, represents Lev Parnas, the recently indicted Soviet-born American who worked with Giuliani to push claims of Democratic corruption in Ukraine. Bondy said that Parnas was told directly by the former Ukrainian official that he met last year in Vienna with Rep. Devin Nunes.
    “Mr. Parnas learned from former Ukrainian Prosecutor General Victor Shokin that Nunes had met with Shokin in Vienna last December,” said Bondy. …..

    Nunes is one of President Donald Trump’s key allies in Congress and has emerged as a staunch defender of the President during the impeachment inquiry, which he has frequently labeled as a “circus.” Nunes declined repeated requests for comment.

    Bondy tells CNN that his client and Nunes began communicating around the time of the Vienna trip. Parnas says he worked to put Nunes in touch with Ukrainians who could help Nunes dig up dirt on Biden and Democrats in Ukraine, according to Bondy. ……

    Rip Murdock (ff876c)

  154. @151

    The booming economy? Clinton fan, are you?
    Record employment? October 1951-1953 and Sept 68 to May 69. Also, it has been steadily increasing since 2010, so you might as well say “Thanks Obama” on that one. 😛
    All the stellar judges appointed? You mean Republican Activist judges, which are no better IMO than liberal activist judges?
    Lack of new military adventures? Yeah, none of our people came home, we just deserted an ally and moved the men somewhere else in the theater.
    The ongoing construction of border wall? The expensive waste of money that can be cut through in very little time with basic power tools? That would require sketchy imminent domain and causes water rights problems? That the President can’t get legitimately funded?
    No domestic terrorist attacks? You might as well “Thanks Obama” on this one too. He had the same record. Better really, since it was 8 years, not just 3. 😛
    Reduction of regulations? Good regulations are good, bad regulations are bad. I like my food and banks regulated properly.
    End to the Obamacare mandate? probably an actual plus if that is a thing you care about
    Respect for constitutional separation of powers? *Shrieking with laughter* Trump is actually worse than Obama on this one.
    Support for the police and veterans? VA groups report he is still underfunding their programs, he fired his first head of the VA by tweet and he’s had 5! heads of the VA over 3 years. He undermined the military command structure by recently pardoning several people convicted of crimes in military courts. Support for the police is mostly in rhetoric.

    Also his foreign policy is terrible (because he’s Putin’s stooge and keeps making decisions that reduce our influence and increase Russia’s), he raised my taxes, he keeps breaking the law, he’s telling god-awful lies about people who are acting in good faith, he doesn’t know anything (rake the forests? Dear God.), and the trade war with China is bad for both our agriculture sector and our manufacturing.

    (No, I am not a Democrat. I’m a moderate independent. I have no party loyalty.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  155. @155. AND… “he’s a native New Yorker!”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpQ6NtbZxiE

    Or was. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. @156 😀 I have many problems with Trump, but I don’t actually have a problem with where he’s from. Though I understand that a number of people in the America First group have had some issues with the idea of NE urbanites. Except when it comes to Trump, apparently.

    Nic (896fdf)

  157. Judge Napolitano argues that there is clear and convincing evidence that Trump has committed impeachable acts.

    https://reason.com/video/judge-napolitano-enough-evidence-to-justify-about-three-or-four-articles-of-impeachment/

    Gawain's Ghost (a89947)

  158. Regarding Trump’s FakeNews about Crowdstrike, Ms. Perlroth has a response:

    Just how sick is Trump’s Crowdstrike conspiracy theory? Very. A personal thread.
    Nearly a decade ago, I joined the NYTimes as a cybersecurity reporter. I was leaving my first RSA conference to visit some friends in LA and took the last remaining middle seat on a Southwest flight from SFO-LA. I was seated between two strangers.
    Within 10 minutes, the three of us were buddies. For an hour, they coached me through a break-up, shared the story of their own marriages, talked about how much they loved their families and our country. We didn’t even know each other’s names.
    As we started to descend, I asked them what they were doing in SF. They said they’d just been at the RSA conference to launch their new start-up. They told me it was going to help save the country. I told them I’d also been at a conference and told them my name. They gasped.
    The two strangers I’d just spent an hour talking to were George Kurtz, Crowdstrike’s co-founder, and his sales exec, Stephan Barnes. Barnes spent the rest of the flight telling me Crowdstrike’s tech was going to kick China out of American networks for good, and save America’s IP.
    I’d heard that before. But Barnes was genuine. He meant it. We exchanged contact info and said our goodbyes. Occasionally “Barnesy” would drop me a message out of the blue: “Hey there, middle seat!” He never once pitched me, just wanted to make sure I over my breakup
    Barnes died in December 2016. I know he was proud of the work Crowdstrike was doing, rooting Russia out of the DNC’s network. Every time this crazy conspiracy theory comes up, I think of him and his wife and kids and it makes me ill.
    Crowdstrike doesn’t need me to defend it. It’s a publicly traded American company with a $12B market cap. But just to give you a sense of how absurd Trump’s theory is, Kurtz is American and his co-founder @DAlperovitch was born in Moscow. There is no “wealthy Ukrainian.”
    The server isn’t in Ukraine. It’s here, in this photo, right next to the Watergate cabinet in the DNC’s basement. Lest anyone take this as further proof of some conspiracy, know that one of Crowdstrike’s other big clients is the Republican campaign arm, the NRCC.
    Enough is enough. Every reporter or human with any shred of human dignity needs to shut this one down at every opportunity. When @foxandfriends leaves it at “Are you sure that’s true?” you’re doing Putin’s bidding. The end.
    PS: This thread is dedicated to Window Seat.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  159. We already know that some commenters who are Trump loyalists, regularly dismiss people like our host and myself as irrelevant “Never Trumpers,” so why would anyone expect anything other than non-responsive dismissiveness when challenged?

    Late to the party. I can’t speak for others, but as stated before, when I attack “Never trumpers” i am referring to those in the Media/Politics who have called themselves that, and by their actions deserve the label. If I disagree with Patterico or anyone here i will say so, by name. I can write it, but I can’t make people understand it. If someone thinks an attack – which they are not named – is directed at them that’s their problem.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  160. I think RC should post or not as they see fit. I doubt they will respond on the merits either way.

    Thank you. I didn’t response to Time’s rebuttal because he went off on a different tack then my post. I stated facts, he disagreed and then decided that the facts needed more CONTEXT. Fine, but I wasn’t interested in going down that road.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  161. Here is what is undeniably true. Every witness against trump is connected in some fashion to Plan B designed to destroy him using any and all means possible. From obama to the sheister lawyer who changed the fisa forms…..all treasonous actions that if left unpunished will set the scene for a blood letting the country is NOT prepared to undergo. Say thank you to the leftist traitors for getting us to this state And forget these back eddies and whirlpools that are not but distractions. ARREST, TRY AND PUNISH PELOSI, SCHUMER, SCHIFF, OBAMA, CLINTON, WATER ET AL. Until then we are one spark away from disaster.

    suibne (7dba04)

  162. @162-
    You would be happier here.

    Rip Murdock (ff876c)

  163. Plan B designed to destroy him using any and all means possible

    IOW, it’s all about Donald Trump personally? It’s just a personal animus with no relation to any set of facts or principles or to any concern for the country or the Constitution? And everyone who willingly want to work under Trump and has anything unflattering to say about him is in on the gigantic plot?

    When Trump defenders frame the matter in terms of a plot to “destroy him,” they reveal an inordinate concern with protecting the person of Donald Trump above all else. It’s as thought they’ve thoroughly absorbed his Trump-centric view of good and bad.

    Radegunda (51e6d7)

  164. Well, you know, Radegunda, JFK and LBJ, both Democrats, tried to send him to Vietnam to be killed and he only escaped by the grace of two college deferments and a bone spur. It’s a vast left-wing conspiracy spanning more than half a century.

    nk (dbc370)

  165. ’When Trump defenders frame the matter in terms of a plot to “destroy him,” they reveal an inordinate concern with protecting the person of Donald Trump above all else. It’s as thought they’ve thoroughly absorbed his Trump-centric view of good and bad.’
    Radegunda (51e6d7) — 11/23/2019 @ 11:11 am

    Yeah, it’s as though some group created a #NeverTrump identity to rally around or something.

    The crazy things Trump defenders will latch onto as if it were true….

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  166. 166. A small number of people labeled themselves NeverTrump. They did so after careful study of Trump’s history and character — not from some arbitrary prejudice.

    There’s a much larger set of people who have never described themselves with that term, some of whom chose to accept appointments in the Trump administration, but watching his behavior in office has led them to say things that reflect poorly on Trump.

    AlwaysTrumpers, including Trump himself, label the whole lot “NeverTrumpers” so as to sustain the fantasy that any and all criticism of Trump is arbitrary and prejudicial; that the critics would still hate Trump if he behaved like a blend of Socrates and Jesus and Churchill; and that there is no honest, good-faith reason to be critical of Trump.

    Radegunda (51e6d7)

  167. 167. I didn’t vote for Trump in 2016. I won’t vote for him in 2020. If that makes me NeverTrump, I am unable to change a Trump humper’s opinion of me. What floors me is that even if I voted for Trump and then proceeded to turn around and criticize him, I’d probably still be tarred with the “nevertrump” epithet.

    Gryph (08c844)

  168. #166 — Don’t forget TDS. If you don’t approve of Trump without qualification, you’re deranged.

    Also, TDS is contagious. I’ve been informed that it’s risky to read a Trump-critical tweet because “TDS is contagious to weak minds.”

    Strong minds know that Trump is always right. The way to demonstrate your independence of mind is to align with Trump always and defend him at all costs.

    Radegunda (51e6d7)

  169. #169 was intended to respond to #168.

    Radegunda (51e6d7)

  170. Here is what is undeniably true. Every witness against trump is connected in some fashion to Plan B designed to destroy him using any and all means possible.

    “Undeniably true” – LOL.

    To note just one example of how insane this claim is, Gordon Sondland donated a million dollars to Trump’s inaugural commission, and was appointed ambassador by The Great Leader himself.

    Dave (1bb933)

  171. @106. “He showed a spine.”

    No; he flashed Uncle Sam’s American Express card. And America is still paying 31 years after he left office and nearly 15 since he died. Sooner or later you’re going to realize, to your utter horror, that Donald Trump is your creation; spawned and stitched together in the brassy, gilded glamour of the Reagan era: he’s your Frankenstein– escaped from the castle that is Trump Tower to ravage the land. Mel Brooks should sue.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  172. MAGA baby!!!

    Boba Fett (fdecee)

  173. 106. Daren Jonescu (2f5857) — 11/22/2019 @ 6:25 pm

    That’s what Reagan did when he called the Soviet Union an “evil empire” at the very height of the Cold War.

    What he also dd was he predicted its demise, repeatedly.

    This initially didn’t seem to happen, when Brezhnev died, and Kosygin died and most of the members of his Politburo and nothing much happened. Nobody was predicting he end of the Soviet Union when Reagan left office in January, 1989. And it might have gone the other way in 1991.

    But the truth is, it is always possible it may come to and end, and the regime also gets a bit senile, plus there’s nobody, I mean almost absolutely nobody who wants it. It’s got more and more enemies, and no friends, and none of the people on top are ruthless because they inherited their positions, either from their family members or from their predecessors in their jobs. These tyrannies not only have a half life, but as time goes on, the half life of the regime gets shorter, even if there are some temporary ups in the half life.

    Again. Communism in Europe didn’t seem to end after the deaths of most of the members of the Politburo. But perhaps this had a lot to do with the accidental opening of the Berlin Wall in November 1989. That the government might do that, was a plausible idea in the minds of the people working for the government.

    Sammy Finkelman (2f76f3)

  174. Reagan….actually did sympathize with those living under communist tyranny.

    If somebody were to do with regard to Mainland China what Ronald Reagan did with regard to the Soviet Union he would predict that the current regime in China will be no longer there in twenty years, and certainly by 2047.

    I think predictions of the end of Chinese Communist regime would do more to irritate China (that is Xi) than predictions of the end of Communism in Russia did the Soviet Union. Especially if it would cause people now in the government to ponder their fate under the new regime.

    For one thing, that’s something that actually happened, but it hadn’t happenned yet to a Communist regime by the time of Reagan (although there was the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and the “Prague Spring” of 1968 in Czechoslovakia. But Communist regimes in Eastern Europe had, in more modern parlance, a “roof.”

    And also this nearly happened in Red China twice, the first time in 1976 and the second time in 1989.

    This is Xi’s greatest fear. Color revolutions. (like the one in Ukraine in 2004 (that actually didn’t turn out to be the end of the story – there was another one in 2014) There’s a whole institute in China that studies democratic transitions (with the goal of preventing them. I think they may be partners with Saudi Arabia. I need to look that up.)

    Trump’s policy, on the other hand, is to reassure dictators * that he has no thought of abolishing their regimes – such a thing is the furthest thing from his mind – he thinks they are all great great people even when they oppose him.

    This is close to the Sonnenfelt doctrine. only worse. The Sonnenfelt doctrine was that the Soviet Union would endure, and the United States should base its policy on that..

    And then there is George Bush the Elder’s policy of “Chicken Kiev”, or fear of wars breaking out f=f the regime ended (because that happened in Yugoslavia – bit that was caused evil politicians. All you can say is that when you knock over the chessboard a lot of things can happen, especially if there’s people ready somewhere to do things, and the next moves are crucial. I don’t think “nation building” is very hard, but you have to do it – the best way is by incorporating the liberated territory into something that is functioning right.

    For instance people from Hong Kong might be appointed to run the central government of China. Or maybe we could see the recovery of the mainland by Taiwan, although I think Taiwan would much prefer to remain independent. But they could administer China as a colony (or under UN trusteeship) for several years.

    ——————
    * Except for the Islamic caliphate that was run out of Raqqa, Syria. Maybe Tulsi Gabbard would have included Baghdadi’s Islamic State in the list of “regime change wars” she says we should not fight or have fought. But Trump did make an exception for Baghdadi.

    For that matter, Trump wanted to kill Bashar Assad, yes it’s true, but was dissuaded by his advisers who gave him a list of military targets to bomb instead. A lot of good that did.

    Sammy Finkelman (2f76f3)

  175. SF: This is close to the Sonnenfelt doctrine. only worse. The Sonnenfelt doctrine was that the Soviet Union would endure, and the United States should base its policy on that..

    Correction: There may not actually have been a Sonnefelt Doctrine, at least not as enunciated by Sonnenfelt. A slightly distorted version of what Helmut Sonnenfeldt said in 1975 to an off-the-record gathering of American ambassadors was leaked to Evans and Novak – and whatever he said he never made it intoa “doctrine.” That was done by the people who attacked what was reported that he said.

    I used to hear (or read rather) about Sonnefelt Doctrine (and actually Iit never was clear exactly what it was, but it seemed to inlcude the idea that the Soviet Union was permanent) and then I no longer did – but of course it would have been disproven.

    https://nationalinterest.org/article/correcting-the-record-on-the-so-called-sonnenfeldt-doctrine-2488

    It has been brought to our attention that there is no textual or verbatim record of the seminar at which Helmut Sonnenfeldt, then the Counselor at the State Department, supposedly created this foreign policy “doctrine” (it was alleged that he advocated that the United States not only recognize Soviet domination over Eastern Europe but that Eastern Europe should have a more “organic” relationship with the USSR). The so-called “Sonnenfeldt Doctrine” was derived from a summary where, significantly, a few key words were changed when the text was leaked.

    Mr. Sonnenfeldt has maintained in Congressional testimony (and as reported in subsequent New York Times coverage) that what he had said at the meeting was that the Soviet Union needed to find a more natural relationship with its Eastern European neighbors, and that perhaps someday the leadership in Moscow would realize that its satellite empire was like a boulder hanging around its neck that might explode in its face. Indeed, his position was vindicated during the Gorbachev era.

    The part about recognizing Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and the permanence of the Soviet Union, which is the part I was talking about, seems to have been real.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/10/17/the-sonnenfeldt-doctrine-that-wasnt

    What Sonnenfeldt had casually conveyed to the ambassadors, not in the form of a written speech but as helpful reflections on policy, was his understanding of a vision he and Kissinger shared about the future political evolution of Russia’s Eastern European satellites. “It must be our policy,” Sonnenfeldt reportedly said, “to strive for an evolution that makes the relationship between the East Europeans and the Soviet Union an organic one.” And what, you might have (justifiably) asked, does that mean?

    ….When Washington responded in grumbling confusion about the newly leaked “Sonnenfeldt Doctrine,” “Kissinger’s Kissinger” — as Sonnenfeldt was often described — had to explain that “we do not accept” the Eastern Europeans as a “sealed-off, exclusive presence for anyone,” meaning in this case the Soviet Union. An instinctive hardliner, Sonnenfeldt strongly believed that the Eastern Europeans would “eventually” become democratic and independent — and the sooner the better. But he sidestepped the option of war to achieve that objective.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  176. 176.

    SF: Trump wanted to kill Bashar Assad, yes it’s true, but was dissuaded by his advisers who gave him a list of military targets to bomb instead.

    This may be totally false.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45425413

    The source is a Bob Woodward book, which also claims Trump made the request off-the-cuff and was not limited to Bashar Assad but he wanted to kill the whole lot of them (the Syrian government/high command?)

    And that Secretary of Defense James Mattis, after indicating he understood, told an aide he would not do “any of that”.

    This has been specifically denied, not only by Donald Trump, but by James Mattis.

    Given that originally this seemed out of character for Donald Trump (it would be a departure from is normal atttude toward acting against the Syrian government) and that it is far too casual to meet the description of ordering, or wanting to order, an assassination of Assad, and then the Pentagon persuading him not to, and that the locus classicus is anonymous sources in a Bob Woodward book, and that it’s been denied by Trump (worth something – he doesn’t go out of his way to deny everything) and denied by Mattis (would he let Trump force him to do that?) I’d say this story is false.

    The only thing true is that I read it, I think in a New York Times story, and there it got treated as background information. I thought it was more solidly sourced (date maybe and more details about the reversal.)

    I knew it needed to be checked out, though. It got a bit laundered by the time I read it.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

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