Patterico's Pontifications

3/29/2019

Former Lawmaker Accuses Joe Biden Of Kissing Her Without Consent (UPDATE ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:46 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Hoo-boy. For years I’ve railed about Joe Biden’s creepy handsiness when it comes to women other than his wife. While I’m not the least bit surprised that a former politician has accused Biden of kissing her on the campaign trail in 2014, I am surprised that she is publicly speaking out about it and not giving him cover for his bad behavior like powerful Democrats have done for years. And if everyday Americans have noticed the former vice-president’s incessant handsiness with women, then you know that everyone from President Obama to Nancy Pelosi to Hillary Clinton to Loretta Lynch and everyone else who has worked with Biden, also knew. But to my knowledge, no one has come forward to make a direct and public complaint. Until now.

From Lucy Flores writing in The Cut:

…when my campaign heard from Vice-President Joe Biden’s office that he was looking to help me and other Democrats in the state, I was grateful and flattered. His team offered to bring him to a campaign rally in an effort to help boost voter turnout. We set the date for November 1, just three days before election day.I found my way to the holding room for the speakers, where everyone was chatting, taking photos, and getting ready to speak to the hundreds of voters in the audience. Just before the speeches, we were ushered to the side of the stage where we were lined up by order of introduction. As I was taking deep breaths and preparing myself to make my case to the crowd, I felt two hands on my shoulders. I froze. “Why is the vice-president of the United States touching me?”

I felt him get closer to me from behind. He leaned further in and inhaled my hair. I was mortified. I thought to myself, “I didn’t wash my hair today and the vice-president of the United States is smelling it. [Ed. Seriously? Your concern was that you hadn’t washed your hair and it didn’t smell pretty for the veep? Oh. Come. On.] And also, what in the actual fuck? Why is the vice-president of the United States smelling my hair?” He proceeded to plant a big slow kiss on the back of my head. My brain couldn’t process what was happening. I was embarrassed. I was shocked. I was confused. There is a Spanish saying, “tragame tierra,” it means, “earth, swallow me whole.” I couldn’t move and I couldn’t say anything. I wanted nothing more than to get Biden away from me. My name was called and I was never happier to get on stage in front of an audience.

By then, as a young Latina in politics, I had gotten used to feeling like an outsider in rooms dominated by white men. But I had never experienced anything so blatantly inappropriate and unnerving before. Biden was the second-most powerful man in the country and, arguably, one of the most powerful men in the world. He was there to promote me as the right person for the lieutenant governor job. Instead, he made me feel uneasy, gross, and confused. The vice-president of the United States of America had just touched me in an intimate way reserved for close friends, family, or romantic partners — and I felt powerless to do anything about it.

Our strange interaction happened during a pivotal moment in my political career. I’d spent months raising money, talking to voters, and securing endorsements. Biden came to Nevada to speak to my leadership and my potential to be second-in-command — an important role he knew firsthand. But he stopped treating me like a peer the moment he touched me. Even if his behavior wasn’t violent or sexual, it was demeaning and disrespectful. I wasn’t attending the rally as his mentee or even his friend; I was there as the most qualified person for the job.

Flores offers these parting thoughts:

I’m not suggesting that Biden broke any laws, but the transgressions that society deems minor (or doesn’t even see as transgressions) often feel considerable to the person on the receiving end. That imbalance of power and attention is the whole point — and the whole problem.

The timing of Flores’s revealing story is interesting given that its publication comes in the midst of Biden teasing-out and test-running a possible announcement for his candidacy in 2020. Not only is he being coy about running, but he also appears to be gauging every possible reaction to an announcement and making preemptive strikes accordingly (possibly asking Stacy Abrams a place on his ticket and promising to only serve for one term).

Flores explains why she is coming forward with her accusations now:

For years I feared my experience would be dismissed. Biden will be Biden. Boys will be boys. I worried about the doubts, the threats, the insults, and the minimization. “It’s not that big of a deal. He touched her, so what?” The immediate passing of judgement and the questioning of motives. “Why now? Why so long after? She just wants attention.” Or: “It’s politically motivated.” I would be lying if I said I didn’t carefully consider all of this before deciding to speak. But hearing Biden’s potential candidacy for president discussed without much talk about his troubling past as it relates to women became too much to keep bottled up any longer.

It would be completely logical to assume that any forthcoming public accusation would indeed be dismissed, given that this has been the standard response by Democrats for years when it came to Biden and his inappropriate behavior with women. Ironically, Flores’s own party!

Bill Russo, a spokesman for Biden, responded to the accusation made by Flores:

“Vice President Biden was pleased to support Lucy Flores’s candidacy for lieutenant governor of Nevada in 2014 and to speak on her behalf at a well-attended public event.

Neither then, nor in the years since, did he or the staff with him at the time have an inkling that Ms. Flores had been at any time uncomfortable, nor do they recall what she describes,

But Vice President Biden believes that Ms. Flores has every right to share her own recollection and reflections, and that it is a change for better in our society that she has the opportunity to do so. He respects Ms. Flores as a strong and independent voice in our politics and wishes her only the best.

As of yesterday, before this story broke, Biden held a comfortable lead over the other leading Dem candidates. Mind you, this is without even making an official announcement:

Former Vice President Joe Biden is out front in a poll by Quinnipiac University out Thursday, with 29% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters saying they’ll vote for him in the 2020 primary if he runs.

He is followed by Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders (19%), former Texas Rep. Beto O’Rourke (12%), and Sen. Kamala Harris (8%), according to the Quinnipiac poll.

Oh, and I wanted to post this photo (via The Cut) of Biden standing between Lucy Flores and actress Eva Longoria at the event where the alleged kiss took place because it’s a perfect example of a question answering itself: Why would Biden have his hand up at the top of Longoria’s waist where he might accidentally feel the side of her breast?

Untitled

UPDATE:Joe Biden released a statement in response to the accusations made against him by Flores:

“In my many years on the campaign trail and in public life, I have offered countless handshakes, hugs, expressions of affection, support and comfort,” Biden said in a statement. “And not once – never – did I believe I acted inappropriately. If it is suggested I did so, I will listen respectfully. But it was never my intention.”

Also, as of today, several 2020 Democrat candidates have given public statements concerning Biden and Flores. None of them suggested that the accusation disqualifies Biden from running:

Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren said Saturday she believes Flores, “and Joe Biden needs to give an answer.”

Former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Julián Castro said at the same Iowa event as Warren that he believed Flores. “We need to live in a nation where people can hear her truth,” Castro said.

…Sen. Bernie Sanders… said he too “had no reason not to believe” Flores’ account…

Massachusetts Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton, who said he is considering a presidential run, said… that Biden “does need to answer this.”

“I also just saw his statement,” Moulton said. “He said we need to listen to women, and he is right. We need to listen to women. The bottom line here is that women deserve the respect and the opportunity to share these stories, and it takes tremendous courage to do so, and that’s not easy, what she just did on TV. ”

Minnesota Democratic Sen. Amy Klobuchar said on ABC’s “This Week” that she had “no reason not to believe her” and that Biden would have to continue to address the allegation if he joins the race.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

125 Responses to “Former Lawmaker Accuses Joe Biden Of Kissing Her Without Consent (UPDATE ADDED)”

  1. So many people have excused this man’s behavior over the years. From President Obama down the line, the Democrats have enabled a powerful, white man to continue his inappropriate behavior toward women. Party of #MeToo, my ass.

    Dana (023079)

  2. 1. You talking about Biden, or Trump? 😛

    Gryph (08c844)

  3. Not surprising at all. Politics is a blood sport; Joe has been prominent and influential for years; I believe that’s why he was allowed to skate. He’s old, power waning but still influential, just not a viable winning candidate. The Democrats are winnowing the field, they don’t want a “Bernie” sideshow again bleeding off the votes. Because he is still influential, he’s not getting the Kavanaugh treatment; he still has some use. BTW, I’m glad it’s finally becoming a notable issue that is now dogging him.

    Angelo (8111b7)

  4. That poll is essentially name recognition.

    I’m still holding to my very-long-shot-bet that 1%Joe was waiting for the Muller Report to drop to see what way the wind blew before committing to any launch. Given the outcome, it should give him more pause than he has already taken to abort a run.

    The man has been jerking at his chain to run for POTUS literally for decades so this wait-and-see act wears very thin. W/a 45 year record- some lifted and borrowed- he has a heavy load to get off the ground along w/questions about his health and emotional stability. And past performance shows when he tries to solo, he crashes and burns.

    A man his age who won’t decide appears indecisive, not coy or thoughtful, and gets decisions made for him– by younger people more nimble in thought and deed, with fresher ideas and a vision for the future. 1%Joe carries more baggage than Eastern Airlines ever did– before it went defunct and became the Trump Shuttle back in the late 80’s.

    Yes, the 1980’s- which is Joey-Bee’s comfort zone.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  5. 4. To see the word “jerking” used in any post about Joe Biden makes me shudder with horror…

    Gryph (08c844)

  6. > So many people have excused this man’s behavior over the years. From President Obama down the line, the Democrats have enabled a powerful, white man to continue his inappropriate behavior toward women. Party of #MeToo, my ass.

    And of course, all of the Democrats who think Republicans are their mortal enemies can be forgiven for reflexively voting for a handsy, sexually harassing Democrat over a morally pure Republican, right? Because that’s just what you *do* when you think the other party are your mortal enemies.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  7. Or does that only apply to Republicans who think Democrats are their mortal enemies, and not vice-versa?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  8. nd of course, all of the Democrats who think Republicans are their mortal enemies can be forgiven for reflexively voting for a handsy, sexually harassing Democrat over a morally pure Republican, right? Because that’s just what you *do* when you think the other party are your mortal enemies.

    aphrael (e0cdc9) — 3/29/2019 @ 5:27 pm

    aphrael, I’ve called out President Trump’s disgusting behavior plenty of times. The difference between Trump and Biden is that Biden has been in public office for more than 30 years. He’s a career politician who has been given the green light in spite of his hypocritical and inappropriate behavior toward women.

    If you think that I am somehow accusing the Democrats of being my mortal enemy while ignoring Trump and the Republicans, then you should probably go back and read through the archives. Never have I not included Trump in a basket of utterly deplorable men in power.

    Dana (023079)

  9. Uncle Joe will not be having a happy ending.
    Say good night, Joe.

    mg (8cbc69)

  10. 8. Problem is, Dana, I think the Republican electorate has been so conditioned to fear and loathe Dems, the sacrifice of one’s principles now tends to be a Pavlovian response.

    Gryph (08c844)

  11. I think you’re accusing Democrats of being your mortal enemies and saying that no matter how pure a Democrat is, you’d still vote for Trump, while simultaneously not exhibiting understanding why a Democrat who thinks Republicans are their mortal enemies would vote for Biden over any Republican.

    But mostly I think i’m just looking for an argument because I discovered today that someone I’ve respected for years considers me a mortal enemy. I probably shouldn’t be commenting or reading anything here for a while.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  12. As for the Republican Party, it means as little to me as does the Democrat party.

    Dana (b58b13)

  13. 11. Are you a Dem Aphrael? Or a Dem voter? Speaking only for myself, I don’t know what kind of person you are in your private life. And quite frankly I don’t care. If you hitch your wagon to the Democratic party, I can let the fact that you hitch it to the party of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama speak for itself.

    Gryph (08c844)

  14. I’m currently registered as a Republican, but the last time I voted for a Republican was in 2016 when I voted for Ted Cruz. I’ve voted for a variety of Republicans, Libertarians, and Greens over the years, but the overwhelming majority of my votes have been for Democrats.

    I understand that we disagree on politics, but evidently that means that people I have long respected consider me a mortal enemy, and I’m having a hard time with that; I *thought* we lived in a world where liberals and conservatives could talk and find common ground because at the end of the day we’re all Americans who want the best for the country and just disagree on how to find it.

    I should have realized by now that this is an idealistic naivete.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  15. 14. I think you’re putting words into Dana’s mouth, Aphrael. You should be easier on her. I’m certainly not being that hard on you, and I’ll make every attempt to put your mind at ease.

    After all, it could just as easily be pointed out that Republicans hitch their wagon to the party of Donald Trump — a candidate who I didn’t vote for in 2016, and won’t vote for in 2020.

    And as for wanting the best for the country, I don’t think hitching one’s wagon to either major political party is the way to achieve that at this point in time. Anyone who insists that I’m stupid for insisting on a third way generally gets a hale-and-hearty GFY from me. I’m kind of radical like that.

    Repeal the 16th!
    Repeal the 17th!

    Gryph (08c844)

  16. Mi albondiga
    I love the view from teh rear
    come pet the puppy

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  17. Is this the Dana from Kentucky?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  18. Maybe I’m conflating two Danas, and if so, I apologize for that.

    But assuming i’m not, it’s extraordinarily difficult for me to believe I’m being unfair in my reaction to the open proclamation that “Dude, half of the country are our mortal enemies!”

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  19. he can’t stop won’t stop
    and he took a little risk
    they owe it to him

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  20. As I pointed in the last thread, none of us are enemies to each other, even disco who recycles 70s truism like chuck zink

    narciso (d1f714)

  21. 18. That’s not on this thread. And yes, I do think you have this Dana confused with one of the others. Go back and look at the hash validators.

    Gryph (08c844)

  22. This is not a shock to anyone. Everyone knows Biden is a perv, he’s polling well for 2020, and he’s a complete hypocrite on this issue. This is why nothing sticks to Trump.

    Was this person in any sort of serious contention for lieutenant governor of NV? This victim narrative is pathetic.

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  23. Yeah, it’s not on this thread, but it’s a sufficiently blunt statement to taint everything, I think.

    But you’re right that the hash validators don’t match.

    Dana, I apologize for my unfair reaction rooted in my conflation of you with someone else. You didn’t deserve it, and i was wrong to do it.

    Everyone else here, I apologize for overwhelming this thread with misdirected anger.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  24. a long running gig
    have puppy and will travel
    he ain’t Paladin

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. (As an aside, Biden is one of the two candidates who absolutely won’t get my vote in the primary, for the same reason i voted against Feinstein for Senate: 80+ during your term of office poses an unexceptably high risk of dementia).

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  26. It is the Dana of many eponyms. And frankly, a Dana who seems to have become much more hardline Republican than heretofore, and rather suddenly.

    It seems to me that the Dana of yore would understand that not all Democrats support perinatal abortion and AOC style socialism, and may well be turned off by such things in enough numbers to not vote for a national candidate who embraces such things…and who legitimately think Trump’s policies are as bad for this country as Dana thinks they are good…

    Kishnevi (a722fb)

  27. Wait, did I get confused in the same way as Aphrael?

    Kishnevi (a722fb)

  28. It’s V*iagra Falls
    don’t you turn your back on him
    he’s horny old toad

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  29. kioshenvi @27: i confused the dana of many eponyms with the dana who wrote this post.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  30. But we did see how six months ago you turned on our other Philadelphia correspondent, it’s not a good look, now Biden is an old fool trusted to be a heartbeat from the presidency.

    Narciso (2ce53b)

  31. T. Becket Adams
    @BecketAdams
    if MSNBC’s news chief is willing to go to bat like this on behalf of the Democratic National Committee for something that really doesn’t matter, i wonder what she does for the things that are of actual political consequence
    10:44 AM · Mar 29, 2019

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  32. 24 was for DCSCA, the rest of yez are too young to get it.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  33. Univision or Telemundo already is hosting the first debate, in June, rollerball rules should pertain

    Narciso (2ce53b)

  34. @10 I don’t think it’s a conditioned response based on fear or loathing. I think it’s a rational reassessment of tactics. Even Republican voters are able to learn and adapt. The ability to hold their nose and vote for policies is something taught to them by Democrat voters.

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  35. Wanted dead or alive right?

    Narciso (2ce53b)

  36. @33. Don’t be condescending, Comrade; if they get cable or youtube, they get it fine in their IPhones.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. 36… Have Gun, Will Travel

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. I’m not, oldtimer… seems it was around the time you guys launched Laika into space.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  39. They have a bloc on heroes and icons

    Narciso (2ce53b)

  40. I always liked Richard Boone better as a bad guy. Definitely, absolutely, positively, the best character in Hombre. How many times did John Wayne kill him?

    nk (dbc370)

  41. 34, those a-holes did more harm then good on election weekend 2016…showing the culinary folks in Vegas hotel parking lots and the ¡mira! people in Orlando lining up to vote probably jarred up a lot of late Trump votes on actual election day.

    urbanleftbehind (1d6fde)

  42. Adam Driver could pretty much inherit that Paladin role, though.

    urbanleftbehind (1d6fde)

  43. 27. Yeah you did. I’ll tell you the same thing I told Aphrael: go back and check the has validators.

    Gryph (08c844)

  44. 45. Hash* validators, even.

    Gryph (08c844)

  45. @39. Doggonit, Comrade, don’t monkey ’round w/your history; it’s we guys put the Ham-on-ride.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. 43… more good than harm, as it turned out 🤠

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  47. I know two. Big Jake and The Shootist.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. I think you’re accusing Democrats of being your mortal enemies and saying that no matter how pure a Democrat is, you’d still vote for Trump, while simultaneously not exhibiting understanding why a Democrat who thinks Republicans are their mortal enemies would vote for Biden over any Republican.

    The hell I am accusing Dems of this, and that I’d still vote for Trump because even if he is a worse individual, at least he’s not a Dem (at least in party).

    I’m going to assume in good faith that you have indeed confused me with the Dana of many adjectives because to believe you are directing this at *me* is to say that you have no idea who I am, what I am about, and certainly have no knowledge of my political stances.

    Dana (023079)

  49. Boone was a very good bad guy. It was the pockmarks that helped seal the deal…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  50. 51… that settles that.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  51. @42. HG/WT is still weekend western cable TeeVee along w/Maverick; though Bat Masterson’s a more dapper draw. Boone even did Webb’s ‘Dragnet’ but was much better a villain for sure. He and Wayne ‘duked’ it out for the last time in ‘The Shootist.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. 51. I gently corrected Aphrael upthread. He did indeed have you confused with the Dana-of-many-adjectives.

    Gryph (08c844)

  53. Dana: yeah, that’s an absolutely fair response. My confusion was massively unfair to you. And, to be honest, the intensity of my response was in large measure because I was so surprised that you would utter the words the other Dana uttered; my experience was very much the experience of discovering that someone I’ve respected for years wasn’t who i thought they were, and I felt … betrayed, almost … by it.

    This should have been a sign to me that I was conflating two people, and I deeply regret that it was not.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  54. 51. Worth mentioning just as an aside, I don’t believe there is a dime’s worth of difference between Dems and Repubs anymore anyway. I may not vote for the presidential ticket at all in ’20. Save my pencil for the downticket.

    Gryph (08c844)

  55. Thanks, aphrael. I just saw your apology at 23. I have to admit I was taken aback by such a vigorous response. I’m not sure how to make the distinction between Other Dana and myself. I try not comment when he is commenting because that lends to the confusion massively. But as far as posts go, assume if it’s just my single name, that it’s me doing the posting.

    Of course, it’s even simpler than that: he’s a guy, I’m a girl. :)

    Dana (023079)

  56. Gryph, I agree with you at 57. The only daylight left is the issue of abortion. Once that goes by the wayside, if it does, then there will really be no distinction left. Of course, the R’s will babble on about small government, fiscal responsibility, blah, blah, but it will only be words. Words that have been less and less backed up by actions.

    Dana (023079)

  57. 59. Even as regards abortion, the only question in my mind is whether Republican politicians have been impotent or malicious. Last time I checked, Roe v Wade is still “the law of the land.”

    Gryph (08c844)

  58. I’ve been pleasantly surprised with this administration in re Abortion, though it has been the states that have doing the heavy lifting with heartbeat laws (of course they’ve been matched at the opposite gruesome ectreme). Had real Perry’s with someone with insincere religious beliefs and who appeared to cater to parties who may have interest in preserving the tools of eugenism.

    urbanleftbehind (1d6fde)

  59. problems…certainly not Perrys

    urbanleftbehind (1d6fde)

  60. The above discussion about Richard Boone’s movie roles reminded my of my favorite work story. I used to be an immigration officer in San Francisco. One day I was interviewing a family in connection with some applications for green cards. There were a couple of teenage children along with mom and dad. I believe they were Latino. Anyway, during the interview one of the children told me that I looked like somebody famous, as if I were in the movies or something. I said, “Don’t you have to be really good-looking for that?” The kid said, “Well, you could be one of the bad guys.”

    I thought the comment was hilarious, and told my co-worker about it afterwards. She said, “That’s what you get for fishing for compliments.” And she was right!

    True story.

    norcal (ce7ce7)

  61. 63… funny stuff! Pretty faces are a dime a dozen. A craggy face, a snarl and a sneer can be box office gold.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  62. Throw in some pockmarks, and you got Robert Davi!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  63. Yes Davi was a similar type, Adam driver next ti be in catch 22, doesn’t work in that way.

    Narciso (2ce53b)

  64. Colonel,

    Unfortunately, I’m not bad-looking enough either, so no gold for me!

    norcal (ce7ce7)

  65. Kiss F**k (Joe Biden and the Diddlers)

    You don’t have to be of legal age
    To turn me on
    I just need your body baby
    This ain’t no con
    You don’t need experience
    I’ll be your man
    You just leave it all up to me
    I’m gonna have you pet the pup in my van

    You don’t have to be of legal age
    To be my girl
    You don’t have to be cool
    To rule my world
    Ain’t be plagiarizin’ no Neil Kinnock
    I just want your extra time and to
    F**k,
    Oh oh

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. groper joe. and another establishment democrat who voted for iraq war bites the dust. beto is on his way.

    lany (f91844)

  67. 61. I think that’s the way to do it, honestly. It should be the states addressing abortion, since nowhere in the constitution does it give the federal government authority to deal with it. It’s obvious upon a cursory reading of the Federal Papers that the framers never intended for FedGov to deal with weighty moral questions. The anti-federalists were right to fear that FedGov might take upon itself the role of moral arbiter.

    Gryph (08c844)

  68. Was surprised to see ultra-liberal the daily show dragged Uncle Joe for this a few years ago. “The Audacity of Grope” indeed.

    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/yfmksi/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-the-audacity-of-grope

    JRH (8f59ea)

  69. I think you’re accusing Democrats of being your mortal enemies and saying that no matter how pure a Democrat is, you’d still vote for Trump, while simultaneously not exhibiting understanding why a Democrat who thinks Republicans are their mortal enemies would vote for Biden over any Republican.

    But mostly I think i’m just looking for an argument because I discovered today that someone I’ve respected for years considers me a mortal enemy. I probably shouldn’t be commenting or reading anything here for a while.

    The Other Dana openly admits that he will say anything to further partisan ends.

    I’m not sure why you would respect someone like that.

    Dana, the guest poster, would never say something like that. I certainly hope you did not get them confused.

    Patterico (f1931c)

  70. Dana, I apologize for my unfair reaction rooted in my conflation of you with someone else. You didn’t deserve it, and i was wrong to do it.

    Everyone else here, I apologize for overwhelming this thread with misdirected anger.

    OK, just saw that. In case anyone else was confused: there is the guest poster Dana who has integrity, and the commenter The Other Dana who boasts about being a partisan hypocrite. They are most definitely not the same.

    Patterico (f1931c)

  71. aphrael,

    Dana has already explained there are two Danas. The other (male) Dana started using adjectives with his name so we could tell them apart. I was surprised to read Adjective Dana’s comments yesterday. I hope he was having a bad day and doesn’t really mean what he said but, if not, I think he is very wrong. We can’t let politics make us enemies.

    DRJ (15874d)

  72. Well, you know, in a free-spirited debate, in the marketplace of ideas …

    JRH wrote:

    sorry to go all Marco Rubio on you there. But really. Treating half of the country like mortal enemies is just. .. I’d love to see that idea played out, as in passe. On both sides.

    Dude, half of the country are our mortal enemies!

    That wasn’t always the case, but it is now. Half of the country vote for politicians who couldn’t even support a law requiring aborted babies who survive the procedure to be saved. Half of the country vote for politicians who would take away your First and Second Amendment rights. Half of the country vote for politicians who support favoritism of one race over another. Half of the country vote for politicians who cannot even tell the difference between males and females. And half of the country vote for politicians who would impose socialism.

    How are they not our enemies?

    The totally frank Dana (7e0972) — 3/29/2019 @ 2:40 pm

    nk (dbc370)

  73. @77. Dizzying debris in the dish water do-spin-faster as it approaches the drain.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  74. Yeats used the widening gyre.

    nk (dbc370)

  75. The center cannot here, the worst are full of great intensity, it was written after the great war, we haven’t been through a long drawn out brushfire but metaphorically…

    Narciso (e06d37)

  76. Well, actually, no, I am not going to leave it there. I have known Adjectival Dana as long as I have known anybody else here, and longer than most, and I have a great deal of respect for him. Even if he does “confess” to being a “partisan hypocrite”. That will be five Pater Nosters, five Hail Marys, and five dollars in the poorbox, Dana!

    I think aphrael taking offense at the comment which I posted above at 77 is entirely on aphrael. The comment is not directed at aphrael, or refer to aphrael by name. aphrael placed himself in the frame of reference, the “mortal enemies” half of the country, just as he placed co-host Dana in the place of Adjectival Dana.

    nk (dbc370)

  77. I continue to respect the Dana of Many Names as well, and remember him being very open to discussing my differing opinions in a friendly and honest way.

    His politics may have shifted over the years, but so what? Mine have too. I took his “mortal enemies” comment to be largely rhetorical.

    My two cents on this topic.

    Leviticus (7ebc85)

  78. The New York Times ran a front page story Saturday about Biden’s shifting positions on abortion. (his last shift was maybe 30 years ago) So there are people out to get him.

    And Karol Markowitz wrote in the New York Post that Biden is hurting himself by tryinnng to appear “woke”.

    The joke is hat Joe Biden currently sits atop all the polls of Democratic presidential candidates specifically because he’s not some kooky new radical, and the sooner he realizes it the better. He’s simply not a “Democratic Socialist”; he doesn’t come from the modern crop of Democrats who think money grows on trees….What Biden needs to figure out is whether to run as himself or take a chance on wokeness. So far he’s choosing the latter.

    Another thing about Biden that illustrates his cynicism or something I am not sure how to describe it:

    There’s an article about John Bolton in the current (April 2019) issue of the Atlantic. It eminds me (I heard this before) that at one point when Bolton had been nominated for a State Department position (was this the U.N. Ambassadorship) by President George W. Bush, Biden, on asserting he was opposed to his confirmation said he was “too competent” and “I would rather you be stupid and not effective.”

    You know what that was? Biden not wanting to tell acertain kind of lie. He didn’t want to denigrate his ability. He wanted to admit it was about the ssues (except that here it was not his own thoughts, but he was bowing to political pressure) and then, to show how much he is not disparaging his qualifications, wants to say he’s competent, and he would be better off (that is, Biden thinks he would attract less opposition) if he was less competent.

    Biden tries to follow the “party line” without telling lies he’s uncomfortable with.

    He may be the best of the Democrats.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  79. I continue to respect the Dana of Many Names as well, and remember him being very open to discussing my differing opinions in a friendly and honest way.

    His politics may have shifted over the years, but so what? Mine have too. I took his “mortal enemies” comment to be largely rhetorical.

    My two cents on this topic.

    Have your politics drifted towards your being a Trump apologist who boasts about making hypocritical arguments because 50% of the country is “the enemy” for having a different point of view?

    Patterico (f1931c)

  80. Give me an aphrael over the Hello I Am a Hypocrite Because the Left Is Evil Dana any day of the week.

    Patterico (f1931c)

  81. No I think he is realistic he didnt vote for trump, he voted for the libertarian if memory serves, so we have another example when Twitter tells us some things are crime think another day its patreon,

    Narciso (e06d37)

  82. narciso @34 34.Univision or Telemundo already is hosting the first debate, in June

    No, the first debate is in May, in two sections, on two separate days with candidates divided randmly between the two panels. Wait, no it is June. On NBC, MSNBC and Telemundo. In Miami. June 26 and 27.

    The next one afer that will be on CNN in July.

    Fox is being boycotted by the Democrats.

    To get included, a candidate will either have to get 1 percent in three different polls in 2019, all 14 days prior to the debate, or raise money from at least 65,000 unique donors, with a minimum of 200 contributors in each of at least 20 states. Budgieggieg, or whatever his name is, is going for the fundraising qualification.

    The polls can be either national polls, or surveys in the early states of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina or Nevada. Only polls by the Associated Press, Reuters, ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, Fox News, CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, USA Today, The Des Moines Register, The Las Vegas Review Journal, National Public Radio, Quinnipiac University, Monmouth University, the University of New Hampshire, and Winthrop University are included. Qualifying polls must either be by differenet organizations or cover different geographical areas. In a poll by Monmouth University, 4 out of the 19 candidaes fell under 1%: South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg; former Maryland Rep. John Delaney; Washington Gov. Jay Inslee and former Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  83. I didn’t expect this thread to become focused on “Dana”…

    Anyway, here is Joe Biden’s response to Flores’s accusations:

    “In my many years on the campaign trail and in public life, I have offered countless handshakes, hugs, expressions of affection, support and comfort,” Biden said in a statement. “And not once – never – did I believe I acted inappropriately. If it is suggested I did so, I will listen respectfully. But it was never my intention.”

    Dana (023079)

  84. Update added to post:

    :Joe Biden released a statement in response to the accusations made against him by Flores:

    “In my many years on the campaign trail and in public life, I have offered countless handshakes, hugs, expressions of affection, support and comfort,” Biden said in a statement. “And not once – never – did I believe I acted inappropriately. If it is suggested I did so, I will listen respectfully. But it was never my intention.”

    Also, as of today, several 2020 Democrat candidates have given public statements concerning Biden and Flores. None of them suggested that the accusation disqualifies Biden from running:

    Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren said Saturday she believes Flores, “and Joe Biden needs to give an answer.”

    Former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Julián Castro said at the same Iowa event as Warren that he believed Flores. “We need to live in a nation where people can hear her truth,” Castro said.

    …Sen. Bernie Sanders… said he too “had no reason not to believe” Flores’ account…

    Massachusetts Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton, who said he is considering a presidential run, said… that Biden “does need to answer this.”

    “I also just saw his statement,” Moulton said. “He said we need to listen to women, and he is right. We need to listen to women. The bottom line here is that women deserve the respect and the opportunity to share these stories, and it takes tremendous courage to do so, and that’s not easy, what she just did on TV. ”

    Minnesota Democratic Sen. Amy Klobuchar said on ABC’s “This Week” that she had “no reason not to believe her” and that Biden would have to continue to address the allegation if he joins the race.

    Dana (023079)

  85. Biden – Herbert teh Pervert 2020!!!

    Colonel Haiku (3decd7)

  86. Sounds like Castro didnt like Biden’s Abrams VP gambit (b/c realistically hes running for VP consideration or SOS) and convinced Warren to go along with the Flores revelation.

    urbanleftbehind (78495b)

  87. And speaking of gang members, from half a world away no less: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217785

    urbanleftbehind (78495b)

  88. Yes now when it doesn’t matter as much:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1112379608161308675

    Narciso (112701)

  89. “BELIEVE THE WOMAN OR ELSE!!!1!” is for Democrats and Mitt Romney. I’ll continue to apply the same level of skepticism that I applied for Roy Moore and Brett Kavanaugh to any accusation by a Democrat political operative against anyone, even Joe Biden.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. New York Post has a story on Biden’s most touching moments:

    https://nypost.com/2019/03/30/a-history-of-joe-bidens-most-touchy-feely-moments/

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  91. groper joe must apologize to every woman and girl he has groped. then apologize for busing opposition, anita hill crime bill, iraq war vote so he could run in 2008 and more groping of women. then announce he will leave the campaign to non groper democrats and become a budist monk!

    lany (a83cc9)

  92. @88. See #4.

    There’s an old JFK line to paraphrase tht fits Joey-Bee: ‘Each day the crises multiply… and time has not been our friend.’

    I’m puttin’ another fiver down on “my bet” – in the end, he’s going to appear increasingly obtuse with the times to those outside of his bubble and void of any substantive vision for the future. He missed his chance to solo in 2016. If reason over ego prevails, my bet is he’s not going to run.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. @lany Don’t forget his opposition to abortion (he was once in favor of a constitutional amendment agaiants abortion, although that was really probably just to deflect people away from judges)

    I hsve the feeling that Clinton and company want Joe Biden out of the race, because they wold not be able to pretend that they have influence or might get it. They still need a cooverup, or inattention. There are things.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  94. DCSSA @99:

    He missed his chance to solo in 2016.

    Biden was basically conned out of the race by Hillary Clinton and her helpers in 2016. First, they led him to believe he had more time to decide – and he waned time because he had to finish murning for his son Beau, so he really didn’t want to get started early. Then they convinced him it was too late. Obama was part of that too. This time, he probably does want Biden. Maybe even that time , in his heart, he would have preferred Biden, bit Obama is actually probably not too picky about future presidents and doesn’t think he can control that.

    Biden keeps pushing off the date he might make an announcement. Mow it’s sometime in April. (the more he keeps on pushing it off, the more these leaks about him multiply, because now maybe it seems to opponents or people in favor of oppoenents, that it wouldn’t take too much to get him out of the race.)

    I heard today on one of the television interview shows that there’s a whole “draft Biden” set-up I guess they could call it that) ready to go. All it requires is his consent, and they’ll get things started and money will come pouring in because it’s already ready.

    We haven’t heard any more about the Stacey Abrams ploy, which was both bad and good – good in that it indicated he wanted to make people feel confident his vice presidential nominee would NOT be Kamala Harris, which was the ticket being speculated abouut most. But maybe they’ve been working on Stacey Abrams.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  95. I think Biden punts unless something bad but not lethal health wise happens to 2 scoops farther into the campaign season. Then it’s a wash and look for a relatively safe VP to go along with so as to say if were both DMW, ________ or Pence?

    urbanleftbehind (78495b)

  96. nk (dbc370) — 3/31/2019 @ 1:41 pm

    May I remind you that there is photographic evidence of Biden being pervy with various females? Unlike Moore and Kavanaugh.

    Kishnevi (704a68)

  97. Slightly OT:

    Memo to: Hillary Clinton

    Subject: pantsuits ain’t spacesuits & your idiotic ‘tweet’ chiding NASA to ‘Make another suit.’

    In case you don’t know it, dear, the suits in use today were designed w/interchangeable segments 35 years ago and are incredibly expensive, dear; they ain’t off the rack, wash-and-wear-pantsuits, dear. They’re hand-me-down, shuttle-era-threads, dear. If segments for another ‘medium’ aren’t currently available aboard the ISS, they’ll have to ferry what they have in inventory- if it is there- up on another supply mission. And BTW, dear, check w/your hubby, as he wasn’t particularly keen on expanding NASA budgets in his POTUS era to purchase lots more pricey, neat-o spacesuits from Delaware’s ILC Dover either, and the space agency has had to more or less make do with the wardrobe they have and rely on Russian spacesuits for spacewalks outside the ISS as well.

    And BTW, dear, while you were in the Senate, what the hell did you do to expand that budget for same… So if you want to just ‘make another suit’– open your checkbook, dear– and cough up several million dollars. Now why don’t you go bake some cookies– and get the thread some coffee, dear.

    Please, you’ve been in the the public eye for 50 years. GO AWAY.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  98. I don’t understand #102:

    punts = postpones his decision? Which means stays in, sort of?

    (2) scoops = ? There was only one scoop anyway = Senator Henry M “Scoop” Jackson, who died in 1983, and now Boeing is in Chicago.

    DMV = This can’t mean Department of Motor Vehicles.

    ________ = ??

    You say ” so as to say if were both DMW, ________ or Pence?”

    I can’t figure this out at all.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  99. “Have your politics drifted towards your being a Trump apologist who boasts about making hypocritical arguments because 50% of the country is “the enemy” for having a different point of view?”

    – Patterico

    No.

    And I’ve got nothing but love in my heart for aphrael, either.

    Leviticus (7ebc85)

  100. 4. DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/29/2019 @ 5:22 pm

    I’m still holding to my very-long-shot-bet that 1%Joe was waiting for the Muller Report to drop to see what way the wind blew before committing to any launch. Given the outcome, it should give him more pause than he has already taken to abort a run.

    How would the Mueller report affect him.

    Are you saying he was looking for a wounded, but not politically dead, Trump? Trump isn’t vulnerable enough without it? or is it what – his relatively low ratings depend on the perxception of Russian collusion?

    Trump’s shut down about 12.5% of the federal government for over a month and he’s now about to semi-close the Mexican border. (what he’s really going to do is close less used border posts)

    And he’s demanding that Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador stop human migration, without telling them how. That’s recipe for those countries committing crimes against humanity. Just like a corporation hesd demanding more sales, and then saying he’s not responsible for fraud. And in the end, there’ll be a point beyond which he’s not willing to go. Trump thinks he has the better of the argument because no one’s willing to argue against him, but he doesn’t gain support with all of this..

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  101. And he’s demanding that Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador stop human migration, without telling them how. That’s recipe for those countries committing crimes against humanity.

    Without our guidance, these countries are going right to crimes against humanity? They’ve got no idea how to police their borders?

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  102. 110. frosty48 (6226c1) — 4/1/2019 @ 12:33 pm

    Without our guidance, these countries are going right to crimes against humanity? They’ve got no idea how to police their borders?

    That’s precisely the reason they’ll go to crimes against humanity if too much oressure is put on them and the U.ZS. indicates that it doesn’t care, or want to knwo, how they do it.

    The one thing that can cut migration quickly is increasing the risk of death along the way.

    That they can do, by giving guidance to criminal gangs that mighht rob and kill migrants, or avoidng taking measures against them.

    Especiallly since they know that Donald Trump doesn’t really care about drug smuggling, but he cares about immmigration. reducing drug smuggling, which you can’t even measure, won’t reduce the sanctions. Reducing the number of their citizens reaching the U.S. Mexican border will.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  103. But Democrats won’t criticize Donald Trump for this because Barack Obama did the same thing for awhile.

    He used the de facto death penalty to deter illegal immigration to the United States.

    He pressured Mexico to keep people away from the U.S. border and stop them in Mexico. There was no similar pressure probably to prevent people from being killed – on the contrary that was used and taken advantage of. He advertised to people in Central America that they could be killed in Mexico, and made diplomatic efforts to make it more likely.

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/17916/how-the-u.s.-solved-the-central-american-migrant-crisis

    Migrants haven’t stopped coming; they’ve just been forced to find other, even more dangerous routes. That’s because of Programa Frontera Sur, Mexico’s “South Border Program,” implemented in July 2014 and aimed in large part at clearing the trains of migrants. The plan is the latest in a line of Mexican policies funded or tacitly endorsed by the United States that have failed to curb—and sometimes exacerbated—what the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA) calls “one of the most severe humanitarian crises in the Western Hemisphere”: the routine rape, assault, extortion, abduction and murder of Central American migrants as they cross Mexico…

    …President Barack Obama met with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto “to develop concrete proposals to address the root causes of unlawful migration from Central America,” according to a White House statement. Two and a half weeks later, Peña Nieto announced Programa Frontera Sur.

    The White House maintains the program was “developed by Mexico and not a result of the meeting with President Obama in June.”

    Each of the dozen Mexican and U.S. human-rights workers interviewed for this article, however, had no doubt that U.S. pressure prompted the immigration program. “I think it is clear that, last summer, the U.S. pressured Mexico to increase these efforts [to crack down on migration] as a way to help them deal with the ‘problem’ of Central Americans flooding into South Texas,” says Maureen Meyer, WOLA’s senior associate for Mexico and migrant rights…

    Ostensibly, Programa Frontera Sur is intended to protect migrants, ensure their safety and eradicate criminal groups that prey on them. In practice, the plan makes it much more difficult, and often impossible, for migrants to travel by any means except foot. Immigration agents from the Instituto Nacional Migración, or INM, and police now routinely stop trains and buses and detain any migrants they find.

    Now, Mexico stopped that. They are now giving migrants visas to stay in Mexico. Trump wants to pressure elites and turn them against their people. The pressure can be great.

    ZSee also: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/obamas-death-sentence-for-young-refugees.html

    In effect, we have pressured and bribed Mexico to do our dirty work, detaining and deporting people fleeing gangs in Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. This solved a political crisis that Obama faced with refugees in 2014, but it betrays some of the world’s most vulnerable people.

    And Trump wants Congress to change the asylum laws. It’s not going to. Even if Democrats don’t want to defend the status quo.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  104. Eau di Humanity!

    Colonel Haiku (3d7222)

  105. 103. Kishnevi (704a68) — 3/31/2019 @ 3:17 pm

    May I remind you that there is photographic evidence of Biden being pervy with various females? Unlike Moore and Kavanaugh.

    There is, but not of what he’s being accused of now, which is more egregious.

    There is no photpographic evidence of the latest accusation If you thought you saw something like that on television, they are fooling you.

    She has no witnesses, but there is a witness that they were never together:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/31/us/politics/joe-biden-flores.html

    Henry R. Munoz III, the organizer of the 2014 rally where Mr. Biden and Ms. Flores appeared, and a co-founder of the Latino Victory Project, issued a statement asserting that there was no evidence that Ms. Flores and Mr. Biden were ever alone together at the event. (Ms. Flores said the incident happened just offstage at the event and that there were not many people nearby at that moment.)

    Yeah, if there was nobody she knew there, why didn’t she pull away? She didn’t need Biden.

    It took place offstage, while all the things Biden really did took place on stage. I thik thoughshe’s trying to have it be oth offstage and on stage in a way.

    Biden basically says he was trying to cure people of stage fright. (Because, we must read into this, he believed he had a special power, by virtue of his celebrity, to calm people by touching them.)

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  106. That’s precisely the reason they’ll go to crimes against humanity if too much pressure is put on them and the U.S. indicates that it doesn’t care, or want to know, how they do it.

    Can you imagine the US engaging in crimes against humanity based on pressure from another country? I wonder why these Central American countries would go so far. Maybe we can keep our money and refer some of these potential issues to the ICC or the UN.

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  107. Can you imagine the US engaging in crimes against humanity based on pressure from another country?

    No, we’re not extraditing anybody that shouldn’t be extradited, and we’re not abandoning countries which is the closest the Unioted States gets to coming under such pressure.

    The United States is not a weak country so it won’t do anyting under pressure. But these are weak countures, and often corrupt, and we’re not asking the authorities to surrender power. And the United States can exert great pressure. It hasn’t often. Withholding visas from rich or connected people would be great pressure (it doesn’t work for Venezuela, because Maduro and company feel they wold face doom and jail f they gave up power, and it doesn’t work for Iran or North Korea either.

    Interfering with trade is also great pressure. The United States doesn’t often realize its power. It does sometimes use it, but where it will not work well, with Iran or North Korea.

    Also, it takes some thinking to realize what we’re potentially pushing them into are crimes against humanity. But that’s what you’re asking for if you say you want something and don’t ccare how, nless you have avgood idea of what hey do, or believe that the government is behind it in the first place (as Trump seems to do or pretends he is)

    Some thinking maybe is requird even to realize some actions contemplated may amount to that. But anyway the only way to quickly stop migration is killing people.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  108. @narciso The Latin Victory fund – or someone involved with it – is saying this didn’t happen. It wasn’t in public view – why should she feel frozen? And she didn’t need Joe Biden:

    when my campaign heard from Vice-President Joe Biden’s office that he was looking to help me and other Democrats in the state,

    Biden asked to be there!

    And wait a second, was it sexual or was it not? This sounds carefully calibrated.

    I think Joe Biden is going to turn into Brett Kavanaugh if he doesn’t stay out of he race. It’s all Biden’s fault because he gave people an opening when he tried to apologize for not unreservedly believing Anita Hill. Worse and worse false charges will be added – and how can Biden fight them when he is sorry he gave Clarence Thomas a fair hearing? He’d come off like a Republican!

    One thing though: The slanderers no longer have Michael Avenatti.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  109. @narciso: Is the article you’re linking to @115 about something totally different?

    I have acouple of different things to note too maybe.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  110. “There is, but not of what he’s being accused of now, which is more egregious”

    http://patterico.com/2019/03/29/former-lawmaker-accuses-joe-biden-of-kissing-her-without-consent/#comment-2200444

    Colonel Haiku (3d7222)

  111. As I was taking deep breaths and preparing myself to make my case to the crowd, I felt two hands on my shoulders.

    That’s consistent with what Biden does and when he says he does it. When people have stage fright. He lays his hands on them.

    He proceeded to plant a big slow kiss on the back of my head

    That is not consistent with anything known about Biden.

    I couldn’t move and I couldn’t say anything. I wanted nothing more than to get Biden away from me.

    So, what was stopping her? She needed his endorsement? She didn’t. He asked to be there. She could have just stepped away. It wouldn’t even have created a scene. As silent as Biden supposedly was, she could have been silent too. Was he using force?

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  112. Just how many puppies does this man have!?!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (3d7222)

  113. 120, Yes kissing (and smelling hair!) is more egregious than putting hands on someone.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  114. There’s no kissing in any of these otehr pictures linked to @108 although the angles of soem of thse opictures might make it look that way.

    Here’s what I said @114.

    Kishnevi:

    May I remind you that there is photographic evidence of Biden being pervy with various females? Unlike Moore and Kavanaugh.

    SF:

    There is, but not of what he’s being accused of now, which is more egregious.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  115. 124… there is hands on, smelling of hair, sweet talking(?) in one ear AND possible invitations to pet puppies in a van, parked out back in the alley.

    Colonel Haiku (3d7222)


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