President Obama Opens Up A Serious Can Of Whoop Ass On ISIS!
[guest post by Dana]
For the first time since the Paris massacre that left 130 dead and hundreds more wounded, and for which ISIS claimed responsibility, President Obama met with France’s President Hollande today at the White House. Showing that steel spine of resolve and the slick strategery we’ve come to expect from President Obama as he steadfastly works to contain, degrade and destroy ISIS, he threw down the gauntlet and reminded ISIS just who it is they are messing with:
Next week, I will be joining President Hollande and world leaders in Paris for the global climate conference. What a powerful rebuke to the terrorists it will be when the world stands as one and shows that we will not be deterred from building a better future for our children.
This is the same world leader who believes there is no challenge that poses a greater threat to future generations than climate change. You might ask, but what about the Barbarians at the Gate??? Meh. What’s a few heads rolling here and there and the destruction of Western civilization compared to fresh, clean air for the future Caliphate of the West living that awesome 7th century lifestyle?
–Dana
This is what we’ve come to expect.
Dana (86e864) — 11/24/2015 @ 3:29 pmMeaningless drivel that is to be mocked. Obama is an unserious man in very serious times.
Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4) — 11/24/2015 @ 3:47 pmThis man is a dangerous fool.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27) — 11/24/2015 @ 3:56 pmTruly a fool.
What’s galling is, as is the case with most limousine liberals, he’ll soon be voting with his feet and the moving van, retiring to a comfy villa in Hawaii and summering in a comfy villa in Martha’s Vineyard, leaving a big stinking mess for others to deal with.
He should be required to spend the rest of his life in the southside of Chicago, particularly during the peak of winter, where just about all his neighbors will be as idiotically liberal and partisan as he is.
Mark (74fce8) — 11/24/2015 @ 3:58 pmISIS is Obama’s creation, he conceived them, nurtured them, armed them, protected them, trained their leaders and released them from GITMO, and set them lose to do bloodthirsty evil on the civilized world. Obama would no more turn his back on ISIS than Bill world divorce Hillary, or Black Lives Matter would admit Michael Brown was a strong-arm thug who got what he had coming.
ropelight (a9d320) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:06 pmImagine being in the audience and hearing this:
“François, with your understanding, my statement today will be a little longer than usual.”
and
“On your visit here last year, you said that the French love America. We love the French. Sometimes we Americans are too shy to say so, but we’re not feeling shy today. We Americans love France because we dedicate ourselves to the same ideals — that all people deserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. France is our oldest ally. You helped us win our independence. We helped liberate France from fascism. We owe our freedom to each other.”
Note the misspelling of “socialism” in the next to last sentence.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:14 pm@Mark, you forgot, as clueless as he is, which is a hallmark of Chicago leftists like Obama.
Consider, the burned out and vacant buildings within a mile of where Obama lived, are not the fault of our dear left wing leaders or icons like Jesse Jackson or Dick Durbin, they are the product of predatory lenders, ruthless capitalists all. And on and on it goes. One of my favorite pass times is to point out how many things are wrong with the world that are the fault of liberals and then pin them on the liberal person I am speaking with. As a rule they are not used to being spoken to like that. It is great fun.
Ipso Fatso (10964d) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:23 pmI want to cry.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:43 pmI haven’t cried in forty years.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:45 pmWell drudge seems to be saying exactly that, ropelight, It seems one step too far, more
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/24/2015 @ 4:49 pmlikely they looked the other way.
You know what makes a better world for our children? One without ISIS, terrorism, radical Islam, burqas, or female genital mutilation. I think they can plant a few extra trees or buy a hybrid in exchange for not being slaves or blown to pieces.
bridget (842c4d) — 11/24/2015 @ 5:38 pmUh, bridget, I think the administration’s rule of thumb is, don’t burden us with reality.
Dana (86e864) — 11/24/2015 @ 5:43 pmWell it depends if the ‘reality’ concerns la enforcement, then they dial to 11. If it involved the other as perpetrator, squirrel
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/24/2015 @ 5:56 pmI loathe Obama
JD (ba095e) — 11/24/2015 @ 5:57 pmThere is no ISIS. Today, I went out, killed them all, and threw their bodies into the sea. No, I did not take any pictures and there are no witnesses (there were some but they got killed when their helicopter was shot down). You’ll just have to take my word for it.
nacht knebel (dbc370) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:09 pmIf SNL wanted to do a skit mocking Obama, what would they have to do differently than what he already did himself?
I don’t know if Kafkaesque is an appropriate word for this, but this is some sort of absurdity masquerading as reality, like so much of what the one says and does. It really is sad more people don’t just squint there eyes, cock their head, and say, “Clint was right, after all.”
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:15 pmI haven’t cried in forty years an I ain’t gonna start now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpYQJkBQp0
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:16 pmPirandelloesque, Kafkaesque would be something like the Zimmerman kangaroo court.
narciso (a1aef7) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:18 pmHat Yai.
Summer in th city. Back of my neck feeling dirty and gritty.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:20 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL88V-_QQrQ
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:27 pmPant load lookin’ for her Huma
Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:34 pmLookin’ all confused I’m hopin’ it’s a tumah
The greatest threat to National Comedy has to be SNL. What a seriously unfunny bunch of throne-sniffing Democrat shills.
Colonel Haiku (fb7ea4) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:37 pmhttp://youtu.be/NAicrYOC3fQ
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:43 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=134&v=xMMceEx72sE
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:43 pmI gave my flight jacket to a stripper.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:49 pm#rebuketheterrorists
nacht knebel (dbc370) — 11/24/2015 @ 6:51 pmMy bad. Those were the Black Eagles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEkYqL9n7vo
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 7:00 pmVAW–114. I’m almost a Hormel Hawg.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 7:04 pmHe is so far beyond parody that it makes it hard to mock.
Mark – where should I move?
JD (ba095e) — 11/24/2015 @ 7:19 pmCan we do Syrian Refugee Tours of the WH?
Rodney Ling's Spirit (ab8c0d) — 11/24/2015 @ 7:26 pm“Praying for my many family members in Chicago. Told them if they see any CNN trucks, they need to run.”
– John Nolte
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/24/2015 @ 7:30 pmMares eat oats,
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/24/2015 @ 8:04 pmAnd does eat oats
And little lambs eat ivy
Obama’d arm ISIS too
Pootie poo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxuMK2dIDJE
You know, I played a minor part in this.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 8:23 pmI’m thinking maybe ISIS doesn’t want me disliking them.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/24/2015 @ 8:28 pmIf you’ve been wondering about the downing of the SU-24, this link in the DailyMail has a diagram showing the path of the aircraft. This is located at the top of the front page right now, but the article will be moved as time passes, so you may have to look around to find the article in the future.
You can see that Turkey has a “peninsula” (or salient?) jutting to the south into Syria. It appears to be about 3 miles wide at its base, and it protrudes about 4 miles southward. The Russian aircraft crossed this peninsula on a westward course where the peninsula was about 1 to 2 miles across. The Turkish jet may have launched its missile while the SU-24 was in Turkish air space, but the missile didn’t hit the SU-24 until it had departed Turkish air space and was about 2 miles into Syria. The plane crashed about 2.5 miles from the point of impact, again in Syria, or about 5 miles from the point where the aircraft was in Turkish air space.
The interceptor’s path is shown to be a southerly course toward the peninsula, whereupon it releases its missile and returns to Turkey. Because distances involved in this incident are miles, and both the F-16 and the SU-24 are capable of supersonic speeds, we a are talking about times that are measured in a handful of seconds. At 900 mph, 1 mile translates into a mere 4 seconds. Bear in mind also that at super sonic speeds an aircraft needs well over a mile to turn around to keep g-loads tolerable, suggesting that if the F16 was attacking at super sonic speeds it may have needed considerable room to maneuver. This suggests that the F16 may well have crossed into Syria as it withdrew or as it acquired a lock on the SU-24. The SU-24 probably wasn’t flying at high speed. The picture of the SU-24 after it was hit shows its wings to be in their full forward position, suggesting a fairly low speed. But even so, times would be short. If it was going just 300 knots, crossing the Turkish territory would have taken between 12 and 24 seconds. This means that the timing of the F-16 attack had to be very precise if the missiles were to be launched over Turkish air space. If the F-16 failed to get a lock and had to make another pass, they’d have been in Syria by many miles before they could have regained a lock.
The whole thing smells like a setup. The idea that the Russians were warned 10 times is very misleading. The Russians would have been flying in Syrian air space during all those “warnings”. And it would take a lot of planning to ensure that the intercept occurred precisely over that tiny little bit of land that the SU-24 passed over. There is some indication in the diagram that this was the second circuit for the SU-24, so the Turks would have had some basis for predicting the speed variations that might be expected for the SU-24 as it headed westward, which would facilitate planning for the attack.
I noticed that NATO and all the western experts are convinced that the Russians are in the wrong. But the attack was a carefully planned and orchestrated event, and a few seconds of departure from the expected route would have put the SU-24 out of the “free fire” zone in the Turkish air space. It looks like this was a carefully thought out pretext to murder a couple of Russian pilots.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/24/2015 @ 9:57 pmAs the saying goes, I don’t have a dog in this fight, meaning I don’t sympathize with either NATO/Turkey or Russia. I’m so sick of the liberal loons of Western Europe and its EU/NATO, the effete nature of Obama’s America and our Nidal-Hasan-ized military, and the amoral Russians/Chinese, with the trash of pro-Sharia fanatics pulling up the rear (from ISIS to Saudi Arabia, and beyond), that they all deserve to lose in various ways.
Mark (f713e4) — 11/24/2015 @ 10:11 pmThe fortunes of war. Collateral damage. And when it comes to shooting down innocents in airplanes, nobody has done it more, and more “in-your-face” blatantly, than Russia. I’m no fan of Erdogan or his support for the cannibals but Putin is the really dangerous enemy of the United States.
nk (dbc370) — 11/24/2015 @ 10:25 pmYes, more dangerous than Obama.
nk (dbc370) — 11/24/2015 @ 10:26 pmTed Cruz makes a leap in Iowa poll, passing Ben Carson and moving within the margin to Donald Trump.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/25/2015 @ 3:19 amPlease ISIS, take him up on it. The Secret Service will be too busy with the booze, hookers and drugs.
mer (fe4339) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:22 am#38, nk, Yes, more dangerous than Obama.
No he isn’t. Putin is an external enemy living in the past who wants to recreate the glory days of the old USSR, to be at the center of world events.
Obama is a wolf among the sheep, he’s sufficiently concealed his true intentions to damage America as much as possible while still retaining enough plausible deniability to remain in place and continue his jihad against Uncle Sam.
Of the two Obama is 10 times more dangerous, a few seconds of clarity should be enough to convince anyone with the courage to look at Obama’s record in office. Time after time the US gets blindsided by some oncoming freight train while our Commander-in-Chief only finds out about it after reading the newspaper, or sees a video, or gets home from playing golf. Once is an isolated event, twice is happenstance, and three times is enemy action. Time after time after time is treachery of the first water.
ropelight (539464) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:28 amPost 41: You have nailed President44 and his cabal. However, the Vichy Republicans in Congress have allowed this cancer to fester.
mike191 (4c004d) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:06 am35. This and Free Syrian Army Turkmen wasting Ru pilots under silk in the air, our moderates helpfully coordinating w/Turkey in war crimes:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/russia-escalates-suspends-military-cooperation-turkey-moves-warship-coast-destroy-an
Not a weapons geek but I’d put Harry S. Truman’s life expectancy in theatre at roughly 72 hours.
DNF (755a85) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:50 amI don’t disagree about Obama’s true nature and intentions, but he’s missing two things that Putin has. That makes him less effectual.
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:51 am41. Plainly we are choosing WWIII, not merely by sins of omission, but actually inciting the breakout.
To what end? I submit the only conceivable strategy is to rapidly reduce the war board’s pieces in play expecting to have control after some weeks versus a maimed Russia and China. Perhaps the WH even expects China to hold fire.
An incentive may well be weapons systems in the mill; our side has no better chance over the near term than to strike now before China is unconquerable.
DNF (755a85) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:04 amnk, “Fortunes of war” indeed. My concern is that the Russians will undoubtedly regard this as an ambush by a country that they weren’t aware that they were at war with, and they will respond in kind. Our confidence that we can handle whatever Russia decides to do is based mainly on the tattered state of the Russian economy. But if this event allows Putin to enrage the Russian public, or if they get enraged on their own, then he can take some rather drastic actions that will reduce the significance of our economic warfare measures. Japan, for example, was down to 90 days of petroleum reserves due to our embargos in 1941 when they attacked Pearl Harbor and conquered the petroleum rich islands of the western Pacific. Putin, on the other hand, has control of Europe’s natural gas supplies, and Europe will need this gas over the winter. So he has some economic tools of his own to counterbalance his loss of oil revenues. And we have been so reluctant to arm the Kurds due to Turkish fears. Putin will almost certainly provide them with the means to cause Turkey a significant amount of misery.
The outcome of WWI may have been a result of miscalculations, but the war wasn’t. In particular the German general staff encouraged Austria to draw Russia into the conflict, and they were pretty confident that they could capture Paris in a month or two should the French support Russia. In the end they guessed wrong about the thrust to Paris, right on Russia joining the conflict, and didn’t really consider the long term effect of the likely British blockade should their attack on France fail. So they miscalculated on the extent and costs of the war, although they welcomed the war to begin with. WWII was not the result of a miscalculation. Hitler judged the western democracies accurately. And this time the thrust to capture Paris was successful in the anticipated time frame. His mistake was to attack Russia too soon, and he didn’t anticipate British resolve under Churchill. My point is that war isn’t always the accident that our progressive elites like to think. And we may experience the consequence of this sort of misunderstanding very soon.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Fortunes of war.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:21 amBobStewartatHome, you’re a good egg.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:43 amI don’t disagree with your assessment, Bob. And no Greek can really be sincere when saying anything good about Turkey.
I’m counting on Putin having a pair, a good head on his shoulders, and $48 billion to sweeten his old age (which $48 billion won’t be any good in a Mad Max world), and not going batsh!t crazy over this. Because if he does, he’ll roll over our petulant baby like a road grader over a dead possum.
WWI was really about Mediterranean ports and all the benefits therefrom, wasn’t it?
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:48 amTurkey is supporting ISIS and has been all along in cahoots with Obama’s Administration (weapons CIA and Hillary’s State Department collected in Benghazi were secretly shipped to the Turkish port of Iskenderun and delivered to anti-Syrian government terrorists which made them powerful and allowed them to became ISIS).
The Russians are fighting to keep Assad in power and thus maintain their access to Mediterranean ports, and to expand their influence in the Middle East under a long term strategy of combining Russian military power and their vast oil interests with OPEC to dominate oil prices worldwide.
All this only makes sense if you understand that Obama created ISIS. He’s in league with the Muslim Brotherhood. And, he intends to poison the well so the US is a pariah in the Middle East and unwelcome in any Islamic country. He intends to ethically cleanse the Arab world of infidels.
ropelight (539464) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:57 amThe second pilot has been rescued and is telling his story. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-jet-pilot-says-were-6898879
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:19 am#42 – P
The first battle for US forces in the european theater during WW2 was against the french in North Africa –
joe (debac0) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:26 amnk, the German General Staff is on record before WWI as estimating that Russia would surpass Germany in industrial capacity by the early 1920s, and their reason for wanting the war was to give the Russians a good thumping to maintain their dominant position. The Mediterranean and the Dardanelles was Russia’s link with the Allies, and Russia’s fate was sealed when the Ottoman Empire joined the Axis. The British and their allies would have fared far better if they had been successful at Gallipoli, as that would have allowed them to provide Russia with armaments and Russia could have exported its grain, which was badly needed in the UK and France. The losses at Gallipoli were horrible, but they were just another bad week at office on the Western Front in France. If the commanders at Gallipoli had been just a fraction as good as the German advisors to the Ottomans, it would have been a different story. The first attempt to force the Bosporus failed when ten or fifteen “mine sweepers” (North Sea fishing boats) turned back after their crews, fishermen, suffered very minor casualties. Had that effort been done with sufficient resolve it is likely that the course of the war would have been drastically different … no mass slaughter in France, no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, etc.
I think Russia will always desire to control the Dardanelles and the Black Sea as that is their door to ocean commerce. And I suspect in Putin’s mind, the Turkish swing back to Islamic fundamentalism is suggesting some real opportunities. Not that individual Turks aren’t brave, but their ability to engage in fast evolving technological warfare is suspect. In WWI, for example, the muslim slaughter of Christians in the area just north of what is now the Syrian border along the Mediterranean (the site of the SU-24 incident) caused completion of a mountainous section of the railroad to Baghdad to be delayed for over a year as the only local workers skilled enough to do the construction were the Christians that the jihadists had just killed. Trains bearing supplies had to be off loaded north of the segment, the goods transported by wagon across the mountains, and then reload on trains that Lawrence of Arabia would later enjoy blowing up.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:33 amPutin will almost certainly provide them with the means to cause Turkey a significant amount of misery.
–I’ve read indications that Russia has been liaising with elements of the PYD (which is affiliated with the PKK, an anti-Turkish terrorist organisation).
Don’t know whether the more important Kurdish groups affiliated with the KDP or PUK are involved at any level, but historically those parties received support from the Soviets and the Iranians.
JP (a11fdb) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:37 amThank you Steve, I appreciate that. What do you think about the difficulty of timing the attack so that the missiles were launched in Turkish air space? It had to be a matter of seconds.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:38 amit’s like the journolist never ended,
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/25/leaked-emails-reveal-suspended-cnn-reporter-worked-with-clinton-aide-to-target-rand-paul-in-2013/
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:46 amI was thinking of Germany and Austria-Hungary. Germany’s Baltic ports were useless one-third of the year and, without Croatia-Slovenia, Austria-Hungary would have been completely landlocked.
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:01 amWhat I’m really afraid of is O’s last desperate year in office. He despises us and looks increasingly to be a bit mentally unstable.
Patricia (5fc097) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:24 amnk, Germany did have access to the North Sea via the Kiel Canal and the Elbe River, and that was probably why they had built up their Fleet to levels approaching that of the British. The British Naval challenge was to maintain a large enough blocking force to keep the German Navy bottled up. Trieste was part of Austria prior to WWI, and it was given to Italy following the war. So Austria had access via the Adriatic prior to WWI. My guess is that Germany imagined that it might gain some sort of access to the Black Sea after defeating Russia. They had alliances with Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria which allowed them to complete the Berlin to Baghdad railroad. But I don’t think Germany had specific plans for a Black Sea port in WWI. Hitler, of course, was going to depopulate the entire region east of Germany and resettle it with his “Aryans”, but that was later.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:30 amBob, your link takes me to the Daily Mail’s home page and I am not seeing the article you’re seeing. If you have a direct link I’d appreciate it. I need all the help I can get my browser is a POC.
Going strictly from your description, and I have no reason to doubt it, this was cold blooded murder. I submit the Turks had the Russians’ flight patterns down pat. In war it’s stupid to do things the same way twice. That couldn’t have been the first time the Russians did that.
Back at you. From Ace’s ONT:
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=360265
Mmm kay. What did this guy think he was getting?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19862711/ns/politics-decision_08/t/obama-dont-stay-iraq-over-genocide/#.VlXWauLjLIU
Now all of a sudden David Brooks is concerned he has a preezy who isn’t equipped to make moral decisions about genocide.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:37 amYes, more dangerous than Obama.
I want to respond with a smart-ass comment about our dear leader, but I do become uneasy in judging him compared with Putin because I don’t want to become morally relativistic, which is a hallmark of the left. However, it’s pathetic that the guy in the White House has intrinsically less regard for his home country (less patriotic about it) than Putin does of his, and is probably far more cynical about the value of Western civilization than the guy from Russia is. So from a purely social-cultural standpoint, Putin isn’t as likely to bad mouth Russia in front of foreign audiences or light up the Kremlin in rainbow colors when his nation implements SSM.
Putin may or may not be a good man. But Obama most certainly is NOT a good man.
Mark (74fce8) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:50 amThat was kind of an obvious observation on my part.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:54 amSteve, here’s a current link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3332790/Monstrous-new-crisis-Russia-s-downed-jet-Putin-s-fury-stab-terror-accomplices-Moscow-analyst-warns-war-likely-Moscow-analyst.html
This should be stable. The figure I referred to is the second image from the top.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:58 amPutin is not a good man, Mark.
I hate the fact that because I have to respect him as effective, that he’s more effective than our preezy, that can be confused with admiration.
He’s a KGB thug, Mark. Don’t ever forget that.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/25/2015 @ 8:59 amI would contend Western reports of Russian finances being in shambles are largely Truth Ministry posturing. Russian oil and gas contracts were in place B4 the downturn in demand and the Sauds regaining of market share in China is one the other hand below production costs.
The WH is obviously desperate to salvage something out of their faceplant in the ME, first losing suzerain MB, then losing Iran to the Russian initiative and now trying to curry favor once again with the Sauds, too little, too late.
Everyone by now knows Crack Whore is a worthless ally who only facilitates chaos.
DNF (755a85) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:10 am63. I wouldn’t even trust that Pooter is foremost, a patriot. We teeter on the cusp of a Dark Age.
DNF (755a85) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:13 amThanks, Bob. Yeah, with the wings swept forward like that she couldn’t have been moving very fast.
I say that as an intel O who served with an F-14 squadron. I was never in a paid flight status, but I did have a NATOPS jacket and I could work the mighty, mighty AWG-9.
I was going to jokingly comment that my tactical skills extended only so far at recruiting the strippers for the Tomcat Follies and taking a punch.
But I saw that pic and I realized that the comment about taking a punch has application here. The secret is looking at the punch. It’s the one you don’t see that knocks you out.
Steve57 (4d7b6d) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:19 amDNF, and Russian military equipment and supplies are purchased from Russia in rubles, so weakness in the ruble relative to the dollar is of no significance to their military efforts. Indeed, they may be extracting a price (in dollars no doubt) from their allies for their current efforts, which could yield a tidy profit when converted to rubles.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:25 amSteve, did you notice that the F16 radar track disappears at the Syrian border? In the more detailed radar track further into the article, linked below (black land, turquoise border), you can also see the F16 tracking in a circuit over Turkey as it times its attack. And the radar track of the SU-24 is kind of tangled, including a couple of reversals that are physically impossible. There were two SU-24s and they might have been losing one and then picking up the other, resulting in the tangled path.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3332790/Monstrous-new-crisis-Russia-s-downed-jet-Putin-s-fury-stab-terror-accomplices-Moscow-analyst-warns-war-likely-Moscow-analyst.html#i-4276b31d6761a40d
The F16 track that disappears at the Syrian border may become significant as the lawyers start chewing on this. But heaven help us if we think lawyers are going to get us out this mess.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:39 amPutin is not a good man, Mark.
I hate the fact that because I have to respect him as effective
Steve57, I certainly wouldn’t argue against your point. I recall all the liberals in the past who felt a soft spot in their heart for the former Soviet Union (or places like Cuba of today) because, well, hey, those nations at least provide free healthcare, free education, etc, to their people!! Those nations are for the common man!!! (Of course, why quite a few of those same liberals in 2015 have a soft spot for Islamofascism is due to what?!) So I don’t want to make the mistake that just because the proverbial broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, it therefore can be relied upon 24/7.
In terms of Putin’s effectiveness, I don’t respect him about that as much as I respect him for the following, which you can be damn sure are the type of words that won’t be pouring out of the mouth of the interloper currently in the Oval Office:
Mark (74fce8) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:42 amBobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 6:21 am
Well, not exactly. They told Austria that there would not be a general European War, while at the same time, putting into their mobilization plans, an invasion of Luxembourg, and,if Russia mobilized, an invasion of Belgium and France.
They (or the German government) LIED to Austria-Hungary. That’s what’s actually in Professor Fay’s 1927 book even though he claimed the war broke out accidentally.
That claim, that somebody else besides the General General Staff bears some repsonsibility for the outbreak of World War I, if you look at it, is based on France and everybody somehow knowing about the Schlieffen Plan.
But that was a secret!!
Yes, by 1927, everybody knew about it, but not July, 1914.
Had Austria known about it, it would not have issued an ultimatum to Serbia.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:44 amEven if they didn’t!
Even if Russia did nothing beyond a defensive mobilization.
Germany’s plan for war with Russia was, first, conquering France.
The only way maybe France could have stopped it would have been to convincingly tear up its alliance with Russia.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:48 amRussia didn’t join the conflict. There wasn’t any conflict. Except maybe one brewing between Austria-Hungary and Serbia.
More important, they forgot what Bismarck had called the ost important fact of the 19th century:
Great Britain and the United states spoke the same language
This meant that Germany could not hope to invade or endanger England because that would bring the United States into the war, and it could not hope to occupy France, because that brinbg England into war with Germany.
So they negotiated a peace and withdrew their forces from France in 1871.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:49 amSammy, the Germans may have lied, but their lies encouraged the Austrians to be more belligerent than they would have been otherwise. So I probably should have said “encouraged the Austrians to behave in a way that would draw the Russia …”
Friends and allies aren’t always what you might hope.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:53 amThere were a number of things you can point to as narrow escapes from worse outcomes. Actually there, it’s been said he attacked Russia too late, six weeks late, because he took time out to help Italy conquer Greece, (or at least prevent a defeat – the war between Italy and Greece was already being fought in Albania) which necessitated an invasion of Yugoslavia.
His biggest mistake was his health theories. He thought he would be no good after age 56, so he had to conquer the world before that and couldn’t wait for a better opportunity.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:58 amI know very little about this stuff I eagerly admit,
MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:08 amI think this was mentioned in passing,
Is it possible that the Russians had made a habit of this flight path and had been told previously to cut it out
So the Turks had plan in place the next time Russia flew by?
Tsar Putin has misunderestimated Pasha Erdogan.
Methinks a man with real worries in the Caucasus and, now, Crimea, can ill-afford a serious dispute with the regime that controls the Bosphorus.
JP (a11fdb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:10 am“Putin may or may not be a good man.”
– Mark
You are beyond parody.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:18 amthere is a touch of irony, after MH-17, with Volodya’s remarks, the Pasha did one up him, btw, he made his son in law, energy minister,
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:20 amI don’t see how they could have pulled it off otherwise.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:28 am“What a powerful rebuke to the terrorists it will be when the world stands as one [against Climate Change]
South Park nailed that imbecility in its “Die Hippie Die” episode:
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:29 am“Oh man, I can’t wait to see the look on those little Eichmanns’ faces when they hear this crunchy groove.”
Actually I’m pretty sure Pasha Erdogan made his son in law editor in chief of the major Turkish daily that the government seized after throwing all the anti-Erdogan journos in prison.
Oh, by the way, that was the one Obama did an op-ed for, proclaiming Erdogan a great guy.
As I said at the time, the medium is the message.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:33 amI’m sure Pasha Erdogan has more than one son in law, BTW.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:33 amSammy, not sure what you meant by Russia didn’t join the conflict. There wasn’t any conflict. Except maybe one brewing between Austria-Hungary and Serbia
The chronology:
July 28: Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia.
July 29: Russia partially mobilizes against Austria-Hungary in support of Serbia
July 30: Russia declares general mobilization against Germany
July 31: Germany declares state of danger-of-war Austria-Hungary order general mobilization for war
Aug. 1: Czar and Cousin Kaiser communicate, but Czar refuses to halt mobilization, which was what the German General Staff hoped for, as this provides them the excuse they need.
Aug. 1: Germany mobilizes and declares war on Russia after Russia refuses to halt its mobilization
Aug. 1: Germany makes demands on France to stay out of war, France doesn’t respond but pulls troops back from border with Germany. Germany decides to attack France
Aug. 2: Germany invades Luxemburg, a first step towards France
Aug. 3: Germany declares war on France
Aug. 4: Belgium refuses entry to German troops, Germany declares war on Belgium
Aug. 4: Austria-Hungary order general mobilization for war
Aug. 4: Britain declares war on Germany in alliance with France
Aug. 12: Austria-Hungary invades Serbia
Aug. 14: Germany,sweeping thru Belgium, invades France
Aug. 17: Russia invades Prussia and the first battle of Tannenberg commences
Germany expected the war in the west to be resolved favorably and quickly. When the Russians attacked, the Germans had to split their forces and this weakened their attack on France. Also, the British supplied needed troops, and the French colonial troops were successfully transported across the Mediterranean in the opening weeks of the war. All of these factors helped thwart a quick German victory in the west. This dealt a fatal blow to the initial German war aims which were to bludgeon Russian. Madness ensued.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:34 amlike Ali Karem Bey, he keeps it in the family,
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:35 amhttps://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/middle-east/as-obama-fetes-erdogan-turkey-seizes-opposition-press/
Putin is NOT a good man.
Unfortunately, he’s more of a man than Prom Queen.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:38 amAlso, the US was distracted by a little dust-up in the Pacific.
Roosevelt and the Joint Chiefs paid a lot of lip service to the Germany-first concept, but Guadalcanal short-circuited that.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:42 amVolodya has a bloody path from the St, Petersburg city hall, to the suburbs of Doha, but he has not knowing enabled figures like this,
http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/24/turkey-yasin-al-qadi-biz-cz_rm_0124alqadi.html
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:43 ammaybe he just didn’t get the memo,
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-bombards-syrian-rebels-near-downed-russian-jet-122428258.html
yes, there are accounts, of arrangements before the Ryazan bombing, with Basayev,
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:49 amAh Sammy, you don’t prevent an invasion by proclaiming your weakness. Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway and France tried that and their failure should have alerted you to this fallacy once and for all. Only Finland was fierce enough to earn a respectable peace treaty from the tyrants.
And Rudolph Hess was of no consequence in Hitler’s circles. Hitler was the one who judged the western democracies craven, and he was the only one who counted. Publicly, he lauded Baldwin and Chamberlain, while reviling Churchill, because appeasement and lack of resolve were the behaviors he wanted to encourage. These democratic leaders were so impressed with themselves that they thought their personal magnetism would swing Hitler into being a butt buddy, sort of like the head of our current administration.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:52 amR.E. #86, clearly Obama didn’t write that op-ed on the occasion of Erdogan’s visit to Turkey.
Here’s the op-ed, if you’re interested.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/05/16/op-ed-president-obama-partnership-delivers
Obama knew what Erdogan had done. It didn’t really matter what Prom Queen wrote. Putting that op-ed in that paper was the message.
This is the worst historic-I-don’t-know-what we’ve ever had as a President.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:54 amPutin is NOT a good man.
Looks like Erdogan isn’t one too.
BTW, Leviticus, if I labeled Barry a “good man” that definitely would be a parody—a truly absurd one too.
Mark (74fce8) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:57 amThey weren’t allies – they were betrayers. Germany, or some people on the German General Staff who were giving advice to the civilians, wanted a general European war. There is really no other to interpret all of what happened. They didn’t have the power to declare one themselves, so they had to manipulate people. There was a conspiracy to start a European war. I would guess that the members of the conspiracy had higher positions in the Austrian government than in the German government, (their biggest obstacle may have been Franz Ferdinand) but what Germany did was more important.
They had actually tried to start a European war a couple of times before, but failed. This was actually maybe their last chance, as they were moving out of their positions.
Germany was not only encouraging Austria to act very tough with Serbia, but if Russia and Austria even began to look like they might go to war – if there was a Russian order to mobilize – it had plans to invade France.
I think Austria thought that, whatever Russia did, it could not lead to a wider war because Germany assured them that it wouldn’t. They wanted assurances that what they were doing would not mean an out-of-control war – i.e., they wanted no risk of a war between Germany and Russia. They didn’t want war with Russia themselves. Or even with Serbia.
The Austrans knew Russia might back up Serbia. They probably thought that, if that happened, they had the opportunity of backing out.
They wanted a showdown, and anticipated Serbia would probably cave in. Simply put, Austria just wanted an end to the terrorism, nothing more, and that could sound like something Serbia (and Russia) would be willing to give.
But actually, once the ultimatum was delivered, Austria-Hungary didn’t have any more choices to make.
The only thing Russia did was start a mobilization, which you would have expected, and Germany then attacked France through Belgium.
It should be noted that Germany’s war plan was based on the idea that England would stay neutral in a war between Germany and France. Some people in the German government probably knew better, especially since this involved invading Belgium – but they wanted war with England. They thought they could win.
Here’s something:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/58008/wwi-centennial-austria-hungary-rejects-serbias-response
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:00 am87: Steve, my #84 was re: Sammy’s analysis of WWI. But it was remarkable how much we were able to do by the Summer of 1942 with a handful of aircraft carriers and a bunch of kids who had been drafted or volunteered six months earlier. I don’t think that scenario will play out a second time. It will take about a year of conditioning and reprogramming to get today’s cry babies into the kind of shape we’d like our GIs to have in order to avoid needless wastage of government property.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:01 amI’d appreciate some clarification on why my comment to Sammy, at 10:52 am, is in moderation. I presume I’ve triggered some editorial no-no, but I really can’t see what it might be.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:08 amwell Sammy steered us into ‘ardilla grande’ territory,
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-primaries/261231-rubio-warns-turkey-russia-conflict-is-critical-moment
as with a previous defense pact, why can’t they both lose,
narciso (732bc0) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:10 amEveryone’s hands are dirty in this mess, from A to Z.
If Obama were at least a principled do-gooder liberal, things wouldn’t be quite so bad as they are. But since he’s such a festering pile, the worst of all worlds ideologically, he’s not worth a damn coming and going. Of course, I wouldn’t put it past a variety of Republicans to be no better than he when it comes to the international affairs described below (and previously discussed in this blog), but they — unlike Barry — at least wouldn’t be the types who’d also be casting aspersions on the US and Western civilization. IOW, they wouldn’t be adding insult to injury.
Mark (74fce8) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:11 amMD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:08 am <blockquote. Is it possible that the Russians had made a habit of this flight path and had been told previously to cut it out It could be maybe not (only) this flight path, but several. Turkey had told Russia not to fly too close to Turkey.
Turkey did not want Russian forces bombing the Turkish Syrians they supported. Russia was doing that.
The Russian flight path, in this case, cut across a 2-mile stretch of Turkey that dipped down into Syria. It is very small. You won’t find it in most maps – the scale is not huge enough.
The United States apparently determined that the Russian plane flew over Turkey for 17 seconds until it was now again over Syria, and was shot at by Turkey. It was maybe hit inside Syrian airspace. Guided missiles don’t turn back at the border.
The pilots parachuted out, but were shot at. One was killed in the air, and one later, in cold blood. Even the one shot in the air is really in cold blood. He should have been taken prisoner. A Russian rescue helicopter was also attacked and one Russian killed.
Putin claimed the pilots weren’t warned. They were, maybe ten times, but did not respond to Turkish radio. Putin claimed they didn’t fly over Turkey. They did fly over a kind of parrot’s beak area. They may not have warned them they were not only flying near Turkey, but would overfly Turkey for about 2 miles. Turkey fired on them as soon as they legally could under international law.
They even had a TV crew there.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:15 am@Mark.
Islamic State is said to have infiltrated other groups and some of their commanders are double agents.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:16 amSomewhere in a hovel deep in the Syrian Desert, ISIS commanders tremble with fear upon hearing this terrible Rebuke. and plot.
firefirefire (933c5b) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:18 amAnd one oiler out of Noumea. I catch h3ll from the Marines but Fletcher made a good call. Not the perfect call, maybe but a good call for 1942. The depression era Navy just wasn’t aware of how much gas their ships would blow through in combat.
It wouldn’t have been the right call for 1944.
No other Navy can do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQIYAJvzNxY
Actually, technically, we haven’t been able to do this since 2006. But I don’t blame the sailors for that. Who aren’t cry babies. I blame the pols. But, working with what they have, I know for a fact they can get the F and 18 off the deck just as fast.
And that’s still more than other navies have.
I am still gobsmacked that such a country could elect President Princess.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:21 amMark, I think the Republican “leadership” in the House and Senate having been AWOL since their elections. How can you hold them responsible for anything, other than forging their time cards?
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:21 amSF: Russia didn’t join the conflict. There wasn’t any conflict. Except maybe one brewing between Austria-Hungary and Serbia
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:34 am
OK, I’m wrong. Austria Hungary and Serbia were already legally at war, so there was a conflict for Russia to join. But I don’t think there was any shooting yet, was there?
After all, there hadn’t been any mobilization in Austria. Had there been?
And Russia didn’t join in.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:24 amAlso, Fletcher was running short of Wildcats. Going toe-to-toe with land-based Japanese naval air out of Rabaul was a losing proposition at that time.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:25 amThey’re paralyzed by their fear of getting blamed.
Karma will not be denied. Now I blame them for everything.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:29 amBy the way, could we just once have a President who takes a meat cleaver to the Turkey.
I am OH so looking forward to the annual pardon.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 11:52 am95.I’d appreciate some clarification on why my comment to Sammy, at 10:52 am, is in moderation. I presume I’ve triggered some editorial no-no, but I really can’t see what it might be.
JP (a11fdb) — 11/25/2015 @ 12:05 pm–Because your carbon footprint is MONSTROUS
#103: Sammy, Russia initiated hostilities on the eastern front threatening Prussia. They also supported the Serbians against the Austria-Hungary attack, but the Serbs were successful in thwarting the initial Austrian invasion on the 12th, and so Russia was free to focus on its northern effort.
The act of mobilizing had to be responded to by the counter party immediately since transportation and communications were nothing like what we have today, or even by the end of WWI. The use of radio, for example, was just becoming widespread in the major ships of the fleet. Thus, while Germany began mobilizing on the first week of September, it took two weeks to assemble the men and equipment and transport them to the threatened front by rail and horse-drawn wagons, before the attack could commence. Admittedly, the Germans could have refrained from declaring war, but they wanted a war. The trick was to create the right sort of propaganda so that the citizens of Germany would support the war effort. The general mobilization by Russia was the event that allowed Germany to portray itself as the aggrieved party, at least to the German public.
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 12:06 pmJP, CO2 is the breath of life for all the little, much neglected, plants on this green earth. I’m just trying to do my part to ensure the continued survival of all the plant and animal species.
By the way, I looked up this little factoid. At rest, the air we inhale is about .04% CO2 (400 parts in 1,000,000) and the air we exhale has a concentration of about 4% CO2 (40,000 parts in 1,000,000). This is about the same as the water vapor content of our exhaust. Broccoli is Mother Nature’s way of saying “Thanks!”
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 12:16 pmMy carbon footprint caused the Spanish Inquisition.
How monstrous is your carbon footprint?
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 1:30 pmNothing deters a terrorist like talking about the weather.
Stephen Macklin (0cbf9f) — 11/25/2015 @ 2:16 pmHeh. We talk about the weather all the time in Texas. No wonder Obama fears Texans so much.
DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2015 @ 2:28 pmYou know that separates Texas from Canada, DRG?
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 2:39 pmDRJ.
Sorry. Mistyped.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 2:40 pmNebraska?
BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:52 pmThe U.S., eh?
nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2015 @ 4:58 pmAs Rome did to Carthage, several countries must do to ISIS. Annihilation is the answer. Nothing less will be effective and permanent. Obey the law of war and define a combatant as anybody, regardless of age or gender, who carries a military weapon, wears a bandolier, carries ammunition, carries a tactical radio, is near heavy weapons.
LTMG (94c4c3) — 11/25/2015 @ 5:44 pmHow we would, should, respond to ISIS.
http://www.thescreamonline.com/art/art7-1/repin/repin.html
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:39 pmIt was a historical letter, Pat. And I’m convinced it’s relevant to the current situation.
Now it’s in moderation. More’s the pity.
Steve57 (c38dcb) — 11/25/2015 @ 7:44 pmHow monstrous is your carbon footprint?
JP (a11fdb) — 11/26/2015 @ 4:24 am–It inflicted upon the world the nightmare of disco.
46. BobStewartatHome 11/25/2015 @ 6:21 am:
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/25/2015 @ 9:58 am:
90. BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:52 am
90.Actually, the British went to great lengths to try to convince Nazi Germany that they didn’t have resolve, so as to prevent an invasion.
It fooled Rudolph Hess. BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 11/25/2015 @ 10:52 am
Looking over this, I see that you meant that BEFORE the war Hitler did not anticipate the resolve the British would have under Churchill.
Under Churchill, and I don’t know exactly how much of this Churchill approved of, British intelligence tried to convince Nazi Germany that there was a “peace party” in Britain that might take over.
This actually may have been hinted at before. This could be why a (near future) invasion of Britain was not in Hitler’s plans in June 1940.
What Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway tried was relying on neutrality to avoid becoming a target. The Netherlands, in particular had not been invaded during world war I and had been neutral, and it was thought that would hapopen again, and Denmark and Norway and Sweden also relied on alliances. This was later thought to be BIG MISTAKE, and that’s why NATO (collective security) was founded in 1949. You can’t hope that by doing nothing and being weak, you won’t get attacked.
What Britain did, or its intelligence did, and there were no real Nazi spies in Britain during World War II – every one of them was controlled * – was try to portray itself as lacking RESOLVE but not as being militarily weak, which it was.
I mentioned Rudolph Hess to show just how well this worked. Rudolph Hess parachuted into Great Britain on May 15, 1941, and he asked to see the Duke of Hamilton, because he thought he could present Hitler with a Britain that gave up the war (he was someone on the outs with Hitler at the moment, but not so far out that he didn’t know the general conclusions of the intelligence that was coming in) which was that there was an influential “peace party” and how they might take over the government if an accepptable, non-occupation, peace was possible and he thought the Duke of Hamilton was the leader, or a leader, of the “peace party” .
The people in charge of British intelligence probably didn’t even tell the Duke of Hamilton what was going on.
* Re: every one of them was controlled: This would be a good thing to do with any people ISIS tried to send over here, too – not try to keep them all out, but let them think they have people, which is what Ronald Reagan did (or Bill Casey did, or, particularly, Ben Carson adviser Dewey Claridge did, with all the terrorists Saddam Hssein sent to the United States during the 1980s. You may know about this.
There is the famous murder of daughter that was overheard on bugs. They made a movie out of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/28/us/terror-and-death-at-home-are-caught-in-fbi-tape.html
The surveillance was of terrorists belonging to the Abu Nidal organization sponsored by Saddam Hussein, not really the PLO at this point. Dewey Claridge noticed that the organization was very suspicious of its members and he arranged for many of them to be recalled, where they were killed. Abu Nidal was killed (probably by Saddam Hussein’s secret police) shortly before the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.
http://murderpedia.org/male.I/i/isa-zein.htm
I can’t find the name of the movie right now, but you may have seen it.
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/26/2015 @ 9:52 amI just noticed this:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/58008/wwi-centennial-austria-hungary-rejects-serbias-response
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/26/2015 @ 10:01 amRe: ISIS sale of oil.
One of their prime customers is the Syrian government of Bashir Assad.
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-says-syria-is-buying-oil-from-islamic-state-1448471418?alg=y
Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 11/27/2015 @ 11:28 amIsn’t that the person who met with Qaddafi?
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