Patterico's Pontifications

11/14/2015

Democratic Debate Open Thread – Because I Feel Obligated To Put One Up

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:09 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I was going to suggest a drinking game, but if we drink every time Hillary lies, I’ll be hammered in no time. And if we drink every time Bernie shakes his bony finger in our faces and hollers that we need to give more money to the government, I’ll be passed out on the floor from the get-go. I can’t remember, is there a third candidate???

Anyway, before the Paris attacks, John Dickerson, who will be moderating the debate, held meetings with each of the campaigns in what are being referred to as “informational in nature.” Uh-huh. You know what that’s code for… But just because Dickerson was doing “intense research”, you should not suspect him of prepping candidates so they wouldn’t be caught off guard by some unpleasant questions about, I don’t know, emails, or wigs:

“[Dickerson] and his team were very interested in getting to better know the senator’s stand on a wide spectrum of issues, what he would do about income inequality in this country,” said Bernie Sanders’ spokesman Michael Briggs. He said they discussed issues where there are real differences between the candidates — including gun control, the death penalty and raising taxes on the middle class. “John Dickerson’s a smart, impressive guy who cares a lot about the issues,” Briggs said. “I’m sure we’ll see a smart, issues-oriented debate.”

However, since the Paris attacks, CBS has been reworking the debate focus. And if Dickerson didn’t inform them of the change in plans, the NYT did:

The CBS News team immediately shifted gears and reformulated questions to make them more directly related to the attacks. Mr. Capus said it was important for the debate to go on because the world looks to the American president for leadership during international crises.

“American leadership is put to the test,” Mr. Capus said. “The entire world is looking to the White House. These people are vying to take over this office.”

“This is exactly what the president is going to have to face,” he added.

“It is the right time to ask all the related questions that come to mind,” he added. “We think we have a game plan to address a lot of the substantive and important topics.”

The Des Moines debate is scheduled to begin at 9 p.m. Eastern time and can be viewed on CBS or live-streaming here.

If you intend to watch, let us know. And kudos for your courage. (Of course, if the party of old white people is the best you can do on a Saturday night, well, I’ll also say a little prayer for you…)

–Dana

200 Responses to “Democratic Debate Open Thread – Because I Feel Obligated To Put One Up”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. life to too short to deliberately listen to lying scumbags who hate you & everything you believe in or have sacrificed for.

    i’m drinking Stone IPA, grilling a 3 inch thick rib-eye (rare), cleaning shotguns and looking for pheasant recipes on line…

    because i’m a bitter clingy teaorist. 😉

    redc1c4 (0e5599)

  3. i’m sure the assembled idiots will decry the Europeon racism that spawned this attack, the global warming that is to blame for the “refugee” “crisis”, and Bush, who started the war for oil that is the underlying impetus of all the world’s ills.

    well, Bush and white privilege in general.

    their solutions will require more government spending and less personal freedom, here and abroad.

    what do i win for having a 100% accurate forecast? O:)

    redc1c4 (0e5599)

  4. Clicked on the link Dana provided and saw that 352 were wounded in the Paris attacks.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  5. I’m drinking PBR (not ironically. It’s cheap, and I like the taste) and watching the OU/Baylor game. We all know Hillary! is the nominee. No need to watch the deabates, since her positions will change again before the election anyway.

    Edoc118 (05a689)

  6. red, look at this one http://honest-food.net/2012/01/06/greek-rabbit-stew/ I know it says rabbit, but my mother also made pheasant the same way.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. 1. I didn’t realize Major Garrett is on CBS.

    2. He seems drunk or high right now.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  8. oh yes, he went over the dark side some time ago,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  9. Am I the only one here planning to watch this?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  10. This is the first debate I can actually watch live, although ne of them I discovered, was on the radio.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  11. I’m watching OU vs Baylor, but I wouldn’t watch that debate if it was the only thing on TV.

    DRJ (15874d)

  12. there’s the gi joe sequel, although they are airing the second to last fast and furious,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  13. I’m watching OU vs Baylor, but I wouldn’t watch that debate if it was the only thing on TV.

    Well, we’ll see how long I last.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  14. I still have a couple episodes of “Better Call Saul” left. And I have free time tonight for the first time in a month. So…

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  15. But I’ll hang with any other watchers here for a while…

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  16. I’ve been watching… Of course, they’ve only just started opening statements.

    Dana (86e864)

  17. I don’t think Odenkirk could carry that series without Cranston’s effort,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  18. Sanders hitting one per enters. Clinton rooting out “violent jihadist terrorist organization”.

    Dana (86e864)

  19. I am watching/listening/gritting my teeth until I head out for sushi at 7 PM …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  20. “My hearts go out” — O’Malley.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  21. in lieu of that,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w5VfESVaCs

    of course they wouldn’t really take a shot at Harold Wilson

    narciso (ee1f88)

  22. What is/was that left=hand panel shift during Hillary’s waffle supposed to show ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  23. That’s not the question Hil.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  24. he’s from Gallifrey, that would explain somethings,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  25. But did she just backhandedly criticize Obama on “containing” ISIS?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  26. She just blamed the Iraqi withdrawal on BOOOOSH!!

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  27. Not back-handedly … just Hillary-as-normal … doing the Clinton Triangulation …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  28. The Colonel has more reasoned foreign policy …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  29. Did anyone else here “Thank you, John … well … thank you, John well …” ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  30. Is CBS going for rating by trying to copy the style of the “moderators” from the first FOX debate ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  31. *tap* *tap* …

    Is this thing on ?

    Is there anyone else left in here ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  32. No follow up from moderators on Obama’s failure to negotiate an agreement for a residual force. Surprisingly!

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  33. Sanders: MOOOSLIM

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  34. “Those countries that are opposed to Islam must get involved” – talking about the other *Muslim* countries in the region … (sigh)

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  35. These candidates seem to be totally caught off guard by the serious nature of the questions.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  36. “arc of instability” ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  37. O’Malley is the most rational, so far …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  38. They must be in a panic. “More free stuff” doesn’t work with terrorism questions.

    patricia (5fc097)

  39. I see … the panel on the left is to allow for distraction from the person speaking …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  40. patricia – cynical, yet accurate !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  41. 500,000 with PTSD and TBI ???

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  42. ISIS could be dealt with if the U.S. Put troops and equipment into Jordan or Iraq and actually attacked them. Instead, all of these candidates claim they can’t do anything without a grand international coalition. You only need one ally in the region.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  43. Let’s talk about the people who came home from wah

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  44. Hillary: you can talk about Islamist who are also jihadists… But don’t offend the Muslims – that’s not helpful.

    Dana (86e864)

  45. “Knee-hill-izzum” ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  46. “back several thousand years”

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  47. Stanford’s defense has decided that it doesn’t like to tackle.

    As usual, it’s way more fun following the debate here through everyone’s comments than trying to watch it myself.

    JVW (738b08)

  48. Sanders: the term (radical Islam) doesn’t matter. Moo slims need to come together with the world to fight radical terrorists.

    Dana (86e864)

  49. Radical jihadis, yup, a new term should fix everything

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  50. For Democrats/Progressives, it’s those damn jihadis – you know, the Christian jihadis and the buddhist jihadis and the Amish jihadis killing people …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  51. Haha, autocorrect: Moo Slims. Don’t mess with him!

    Dana (86e864)

  52. I commend you for watching, and I really like Better Call Saul, and this is fascinating.

    DRJ (15874d)

  53. To O’Malley, the problem is only the radical Jihadis

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  54. I agree, JVW. Much more fun to see the debate through the comments here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  55. BOINIE: THE COLD WAR IS OVER

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  56. They wasted no time in pointing out that these terrorist attacks are an unwelcome distraction from the “real war” on the weather.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  57. I don’t think Sanders understands how money works. Shocking

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  58. Dejectedhead – but, remember, they are not islamic jihadis … (pay no attention the the muslim term jihadi)

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  59. Someone better inform Putin!

    Dana (86e864)

  60. O’MALLEY: WE MUST ACCEPT SYRIAN REFUGEES

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  61. At least as careful a vetting and screening as there was for the last Presidential candidates ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  62. HILLARY: ME TOO

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  63. From Discus, the knee-jerk reaction of liberals was to embrace more Syrian immigration. Drudge said Obama has followed suit.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  64. BOINIE: THE COLD WAR IS OVER

    And it appears more and more that the commies won.

    JVW (738b08)

  65. Hillar wants to increase the import of terrorist from the Obama approved 10K to the new 65K.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  66. Hillary: more refugees! But we must screen them … Just as efficiently and effectively as we do on our Southern border!

    Dana (86e864)

  67. MORE SYRIAN REFUGEES PLEASE

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  68. (“Trumbo” is not as good as the trailers might make it seem …)

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  69. #57 Alastor: I have noticed that people attempt to disconnect the two. “They aren’t Jihadists, they’re probably Islamic militants.” Was an actual defense I encountered last night.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  70. Break time. Side note: style points for Hillary. Classically understated black, pearls with an edge. And gee, what a great fitting wig!

    Dana (86e864)

  71. (“Trumbo” is not as good as the trailers might make it seem …)

    So a total pocket rape.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  72. Did anyone mention that one of the terrorists (at least) was a Syrian refugee?

    Just wondering. I didn’t hear that bit.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  73. papertiger – not even that exciting …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  74. Am I the only one utterly appalled by the continued support for taking Syrian refugees?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  75. ENOUGH OF THIS TERRORISM TALK

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  76. Is she trying for understated-Thatcher attire ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  77. The candidates did not handle that foreign policy section well at all. It was almost like seeing an unbiased media!

    They’re happy to get back to giving free stuff away.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  78. Karoli, fan of Brett Kimberlin and Neal Rauhauser, sez Ted Cruz wrong for warning about Syrian refugees.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  79. By the way, happy birthday to the great P. J. O’Rourke who turned 68 today.

    JVW (738b08)

  80. YES TAXING THE WEALTHY MORE

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  81. FDA doesn’t test them … FDA coordinates the trials …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  82. Pattern I, I don’t think they mentioned that it was a Syrian refugee, but you aren’t the only one appalled by the blind support for refugees.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  83. Redefining entitlement works for O’Malley.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  84. Oh I am already getting bored, Better Call Saul is calling

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  85. O’Malley doesn’t seem to understand that a super wealthy guy could afford their own Island and move away from his stupid policy.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  86. OK I’m out sorry

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  87. I really, really want to see Ted Cruz debate Hillary.

    Dana (86e864)

  88. I love the cascade of catch phrases.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  89. The Deductibles increase is making more and more folk got against continuing Obamacare …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  90. The ACA is so great Democrats want to replace it with Single Payer.

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  91. Wonder how Sanders will apply that new tax code to Toyota and Mercedes Benz?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  92. {/me hands a White Feather to Patterico as Patterico exits)

    (grin)

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  93. Naughty Governor ! You are breaking the rules !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  94. Naw, it’s good watching a Democrat primary debate. Reminds me why I am a Republican.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  95. So is everyone treating Her Clintonic Majesty with kid gloves again?

    JVW (738b08)

  96. I bet that Her Imperial Clintoness doesn’t want her grandkids to go to school anywhere near those same Dreamers …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  97. Who is this we who wants 65000 more Muslim migrants?

    patricia (5fc097)

  98. Major stink-eye from Clinton !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  99. Sanders just spoke truth about unemployment !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  100. Interesting: Hillary Clinton did not accuse Republicans, of trying to put people back into a bad situation, but rather, of trying to start all over again, and re-start a debate that had been going on for 60 years. That’s all.

    So her objecton to “Repeal and Replace” is that it would cause political arguments.

    She claimed she wanted to build on Obamacare.

    She also claimed she welcomes a debate with Senator Sanders. Debates are OK apparently, as long as they are not with Republicans.

    Sanders said he wanted to go after the pharmaceutical companies – said he was the first member to take people to the Canadian border to buy beast cancer medicine at 1/10 the price – and he also wanted to end the shame that the United States was the only country that didn’t guarantee health coverage for anyone and also said that under our current system we are spending more per capita than anyone else and aso getting, in many cases worse outcomes.

    [All explainable, by the way. It is largely drug regulation that causes high drug prices, and worse outcomes may be because there is more social pathology here. Sick people actually get better outcomes, but more people are in need of medical care.]

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  101. Maryland is close to the City of Gold and Money, Washington DC

    Dejectedhead (89aabe)

  102. And O’Malley just got shut down again, after being talked over …

    No bias to be seen there … move on … move on …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  103. I bet that Her Imperial Clintoness doesn’t want her grandkids to go to school anywhere near those same Dreamers …

    Of course, and heck yea. The same too with the way that Barack and Michelle maneuvered Sasha and Malia.

    Mark (f713e4)

  104. I was going to suggest a drinking game, but if we drink every time Hillary lies, I’ll be hammered in no time.

    I got hammered just at the prospect of her speaking. If she gets elected, I’m taking up heroin.

    Steve57 (bcaa38)

  105. It’s starting to look like I picked the wrong millenium to stop smoking crack.

    Steve57 (bcaa38)

  106. The good news is heroin will be free too!

    patricia (5fc097)

  107. Taking and dealing heroin is a good profession to pursue in banana republics.

    Mark (f713e4)

  108. 26. Patterico 11/14/2015 @ 6:11 pm :

    She just blamed the Iraqi withdrawal on BOOOOSH!!

    You didn’t know that was the standard Democratic line?

    She blamed the debacle on Maliki. She said Maliki destroyed the military that the U.S had built. This is the conventonal wisdom. It is considerably true, but doesn’t explain why Obama was oblivious to all of this. somehow he was able to negotiate a U.S. presence after the fall of Mosul.

    It’s safe to attack Maliki – he’s no longer there and the United States did help to force him out.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  109. “Military/Industrial Complex” ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  110. There goes the Women Card !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  111. Bernie Sanders… why did you and your young – at the time – bride choose to honeymoon in the Soviet Untion and why did you throw in with teh Sandinistas in the early 80’s?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  112. He just said “BROAD” !

    Sexist !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  113. Thanks for the yeoman’s work. Keep those comments comin’ in fellow ‘ricans. I’m busy switching between Oregon/Stanford, Arkansas/LSU, and Oklahoma/Baylor. I’ll read the comment string tomorrow morning. Thanks again.

    ropelight (d3fa82)

  114. Since when is Dodd/Frank a Wall Street Bank ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  115. Did Hillary just say that she will go after this country’s Chief Executive for his bad decisions ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  116. Hillary gets really excited when she talks about how she is going to take over health care. Creepy.

    patricia (5fc097)

  117. Hillary Clinton… you speak of the supposedly wonderful years during the two terms of your husband – former President Bill Clinton. If the 90s were boom times why do you run against every policy employed by your husband? Why are the same policies not the right thing for America in these times when so many Americans are suffering from edonomic stress?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. What Cabinet position is Bernie trying to secure with Hillary ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  119. economic stress, too

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  120. Has O’Malley gone down below 10% of the speaking time, yet ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  121. And now I go to relieve edamame stress !

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  122. Simpsons marathon, after 30 seconds of Hillary.

    nk (dbc370)

  123. Bernie Sanders wants your guns concurrently with more imported Islamic terrorists.

    And more Dreamers! What is a dreamer?
    Why are these people speaking in code?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  124. If the 90s were boom times why do you run against every policy employed by your husband?

    Just be relieved she has yet to blame the Republican-controlled Congress back in the 1990s for making the Bill Clinton years less marvelous, less prosperous.

    Mark (f713e4)

  125. TMI, Alastor!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  126. O’Malley got cut off again.

    Earlier, Sanders made one cutting remark about the cirme rate in Baltimore (in connection wih guns I think) but when they discussed crime they are all for having fewer people in prison. Hillary Clinton met with women whose sons were illed by policem and also in their neighborhoods, but the examples seem mostly to the famous ones, with bad police or bad white men (like the one who shot somebody for playing a radio (which he did in fact – claimed it was self defemse that he thought there was a gun)

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  127. Back to healthcare. Sanders saya he wants Medicare for all and health care shold be regarded as a right. Hillary gets asked by John Dickerson about her saying in 1994 that she wanted single payer and saw a revolution coming. She says the revolution never came. She says Sanders would wrap everything up – Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare etc. – in a new system that he would have the states running – if she lived in Iowa she wouldn’t want Governor Terry Brandstead in charge of her health care.

    This is not quite in order, but Sanders says he wants to make it clear he does not destroy Medicare – he expands it. Sanders says what’s bad with the current system is that in some Republican states like South Carolina millions have people have been denied the expansion of Medicaid hat Congress provided for. Hillary said Sanders would repeal Obamacare – she wants to improve it. She says the PPACA was a great accomplishment. This issue should not be an argument among Democrats. Republicans want to undermine it and repeal it.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  128. I’m tapped out. About half an hour ago. Life is too short.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  129. On college – Sanders is for free college – because college in 2015 is like high school and there used to be practically free college in California and City Universiy in New York. O’Malley says he for “debt-free” college. Hillary basically agrees – with the proviso this applies to community colleges I think – and says Donald Trump’s children shouldn’t get free tuiton. All agree the interest rates on student loans should be lower and not 7% or 8%.

    Sanders says, when asked about his plan calling for states to spend more money on colleges, that states should do it and those states that don’t will suffer or something like that. Nobody deals with the question of wasted money because of college dropouts. They talk about people who want and can beneft from an education not being stopped because they are poor. That might imply admission tests but we know that’s not true.

    Sanders is also for a lot of causes, like a $15 minimm wage (Hillary has said elsewhere that should be $12) and complained about unemployment and underemployment for black high school graduates.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  130. Sanders gave Hillary again a free pass on e-mails and she looked very happy, and got more confident and looks for something to praise Sanders for. He wouldn’t bite even about what he said to the Wall Street Journal.

    Sanders keeps on repeating what he said about campaign finance and bilionaires and banks.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  131. This

    http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2015/11/live-blogging-second-democratic-debate_14.html

    ….reminds me of things I saw.

    Like the argument about the term jihadi vs radical Islam.

    Hillary liked jihadi or jihadist but does not want to defend not using “radical Islam.”

    Alastor here @34 mentioned Sanders speaking about “countries opposed to Islam” Nobody corrected it, although of course everybody understood what he meant.

    Althouse had reminded me of Sanders probable flub when he said ISIS wants to go back thousands of years – which is way before Mohammed – perhaps he meant it though.

    Hillary Clinton finds one difference between herself and Sanders on gun control: Sanders’s vote on giving immunity from liability to gun manufacturers. Hillary gets asked, if that disqualifies Sanders on that issue, doesn’t her Iraq vote disqualify her. She says Sanders needs to say it was a mistake. Sanders does not, saying only that there were some provisions in that bill he liked but he votes against it because of some provisions he didn’t like, and that if it comes up again he would take a second look. Sanders is all for background checks, and ending the “gun show loophole” and some other things. He says he lost an election in 1988 because he was too anti-gun. (using different words – I think that he was he was for banning assault guns)

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  132. OH NO! Did I miss it??

    The summaries provided above will have to suffice. Thanks for your efforts.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  133. If the moderator doesn’t meet with the democrat
    candidates how will he get the list of questions he can ask?

    jim (a9b7c7)

  134. From what I heard on the radio while dropping off the lad at a party, could have been held in a mental institution. in fact, would have been more appropriately so situated. GOING OFF THE RAILS ON A CRAZY TRAIN. And 40%+ of they s country (some of them dead) will vote for this…person.

    Bugg (fa64ec)

  135. 51- DRJ
    Very interesting
    thanks.

    mg (31009b)

  136. If the moderator doesn’t meet with the democrat candidates how will he get the list of questions he can ask?

    They know.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  137. So CBS pulled the plug 7 minutes early? It was that bad? I couldn’t stand to watch more than 10 minutes.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  138. Speaking of DIMocrats, have you heard about the DFL candidate for the Minnesota state house? He’s withdrawn from the race after Tweeting this:

    “ISIS isn’t necessarily evil. It is made up of people doing what they think is best for their community. Violence is not the answer, though.”

    This buffoon is typical of all liberals, and a small handful of conservatives, including a couple of the regulars here. They think it’s unfair to demand civilized behavior from Muslims, or blacks, or any other “oppressed” group. They have one set of standards for “these” people, and another set of standards for “those” people.

    But they’ll be the first to tell you that they’re all for “equality.”

    Anyway, here’s the link to the story:

    http://www.startribune.com/dfler-abruptly-quits-race-after-saying-isis-isn-t-necessarily-evil/349824001/

    Deuce Frehley (73c323)

  139. #111, OK, I read the comments, seems my decision to skip the Democrat dog and pony show in favor of “reality TV” was the right one. Thanks for your efforts.

    ropelight (d7c80f)

  140. and a small handful of conservatives, including a couple of the regulars here. They think it’s unfair to demand civilized behavior from Muslims, or blacks, or any other “oppressed” group.

    Who here who is a conservative thinks it is wrong to expect civilized behavior?

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  141. MD, which meaning of “expect” do you have in mind.

    Do you mean think they should act like civilize people should act… everyone does. Even the niTwit in Minnesota said “violence is not the answer”*.

    Do you mean foresee them actually acting in a civilized manner…there seems to be a number of people who think they are incapable of acting civilized.

    *Unless he was even more of a niTwit, and meant military action on our part is not the answer. I admit he might well be that much of a niTwit.

    kishnevi (31ba4e)

  142. There is one regular here who’s fairly down-to-earth about most aspects of hard reality, but based on 2 postings of his I do recall in the past, he does have the gut reaction of expecting less of some people and, in turn, placing the onus of that on another group of people. This was in regards to comments about the history of Africa and I believe some facet related to black and white America. In effect, such people manifest the soft bigotry of low expectations.

    Mark (f713e4)

  143. 139. MD, which meaning of “expect” do you have in mind.

    Do you mean think they should act like civilize people should act… everyone does. Even the niTwit in Minnesota said “violence is not the answer”*.

    Do you mean foresee them actually acting in a civilized manner…there seems to be a number of people who think they are incapable of acting civilized.

    *Unless he was even more of a niTwit, and meant military action on our part is not the answer. I admit he might well be that much of a niTwit.

    kishnevi (31ba4e) — 11/15/2015 @ 8:55 am

    Just in case anyone is wondering where I stand on the question, for me the answer is simple. I consider Muslims including the radical ones to be just as adult and human as I am.

    So when they tell me their intentions and the rationale behind it, I take them at their word. When AQ issued their fatwas declaring war on the US back in the 1990s, I took them at their word. When Iranian leaders prompt crowds to chant death to America, I take the Mullahs at their word. When ISIS issues statements about how they will unleash rivers of blood in America, I take them at their word.

    I certainly don’t look for inane “root causes

    Steve57 (bcaa38)

  144. I was attempting to comment how the left looks to explain away the behavior of Muslims, Muslim regimes, and Jihadists. They’re the ones, exemplified by the leader of our Freshman Dorm Sorority administration leader Preezy Tiger Beat, who think Muslims are subhumans or at least perpetual children incapable of controlling their own behavior.

    Which is why, as he actually stated, amazingly, that he holds Israel to a higher standard.

    We must lower the bar for the subhumans, I suppose.

    Steve57 (bcaa38)

  145. I think every human on earth has the responsibility to obey the law of God written on the hearts of all men and women,
    which includes do not murder (kill the innocent without justifiable cause)
    so while I may understand that some factors go into helping people refuse to follow God’s law,
    there is nothing that offers an excuse.

    I don’t care if someone grew up in Gaza under PLO indoctrination every day that to kill Jews was good, there is zero tolerance for acting on that.

    From my view, the main issue among those who tend conservative is whether one can with confidence discriminate between those who call themselves “Muslim” and have zero sympathy for violent Jihadism, and those who at least will look the other way to let it go on, if not directly participate. In other words, those who advocate very stringent procedures in letting more Muslims come into the country, etc., and those who think all should be deported.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  146. without justifiable cause
    On the surface, the jihadis agree with you. The problem is that their definition of justifiable cause is radically different from ours: different enough that we can justifiably (so to speak) call it barbaric.

    You may sneer at talk of the root causes of terrorism, but it is a real question once it is translated out of jargon.
    Why do some Muslims become jihadis and others do not. Steve will cite chapter and verse from the life of Mohammed and the sources of sharia to say it is their religion, but that ignores the fact that vast numbers of Muslims are devout but have no problem ignoring all that, and concentrate on living normal lives like the rest of us. Why do they reject the extremism and others don’t?

    kishnevi (9cb6b5)

  147. True, though I could have said self defense instead

    I do agree that understanding why some Muslims believe in the violent form and others don’t,
    But while I can understand the logic of those who claim Islam and the Koran and the Haddith (right?) justify violence,
    I don’t accept it, as I do believe that there is an objective morality, and while I may be mistaken in some aspects of it, and I guess a Jihadist would disagree with me, I think killing people in that manner is wrong as an objective moral truth.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  148. Add “is important” to my second sentence.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  149. what were we discussing before reality hit,

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/banquet_of_consequences.html

    narciso (ee1f88)

  150. If Jesus Christ had the history of Islam’s Mohammed — with all his ruthlessness, vengeance, diabolical plotting — I’d grimace at Christianity and be wary of anyone who certainly was fully aware of that facet of their religion/theology yet didn’t mind joining and genuflecting towards it nonetheless.

    The religion (or “religion”) of liberalism/leftism and the religion of Islam — not to mention the religion of Anthropogenic Global Warming — all have one thing in common: They leave much to be desired.

    Mark (74fce8)

  151. Why do some Muslims become jihadis and others do not.

    I don’t know, kishnevi. Why did some Germans become Nazi’s and others did not? But it really doesn’t matter. The Germans who weren’t Nazi’s still built the tanks, made the c-rations, planted food, made arms, ammo, trains, laid track wove coats and uniforms, stitched flags and invented new weapons. Just as their women nursed the wounded Nazi’s, sold war bonds, laid with the soldiers, spied on the enemy and bore children to continue the Reich. Just as moslems are doing now. Every moslem doesn’t have to blow himself up, fly a plane into a building, machine gun women or cut the heads of Christians. For very one of those Jihadis there are a thousand support moslems in the rear helping, planning and conspiring for the front men.

    So just like before we had to kill regular Germans to beat the Nazi’s now we have to kill regular moslems to beat the jihadists. Learn that or die.

    Would we have brought 65,000 German “refugees” into America in 1945? NO, that’s just stupid!

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  152. well maybe the particular venue of worship, in this case a mosque in Chartres

    http://www.ghananation.com/news/world/220293-paris-suicide-bomber-omar-ismail-mostefai-s-finger-found-among-bataclan-carnage.html

    narciso (ee1f88)

  153. Rev.-
    I agree with you that the enablers need to be accounted for as well as the actual fighters,
    But not all Germans were one or the other.
    Some resisted to the point of death,
    Others I’m sure at least resisted by doing a crappy job putting those tanks together in the hope that it would fail at an opportune time.
    To the degree that there are Muslims like Zuhdi Jasser they warrant our support and appreciation.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  154. that was a Daily Mail piece, that included some of the influences, which oddly have not received much attention,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  155. Steve will cite chapter and verse from the life of Mohammed and the sources of sharia to say it is their religion, but that ignores the fact that vast numbers of Muslims are devout but have no problem ignoring all that, and concentrate on living normal lives like the rest of us. Why do they reject the extremism and others don’t?
    kishnevi (9cb6b5) — 11/15/2015 @ 2:30 pm

    I would not call them devout if they throw away massive portions of their evil book. Just like I don’t call people who throw away massive portions of the Bible Christian. But there are many nominal “Christians” who do just that.

    John Hitchcock (04afab)

  156. The fact of the matter is all the people doing this are, almost to a man, are what in Judaism is called a Ba’al Teshuva and in Christianity “born again”

    Tis is the key fact: They are all “born again Muslims” or converts. You read that over and over and over again. This is not standard Islam. It is actually what can be called an Islamic heresy.

    If you say no, then explain why this is only happening now, and why every one of them is a convert or “born again.”

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  157. 144. Steve57 (bcaa38) — 11/15/2015 @ 11:50 am

    When ISIS issues statements about how they will unleash rivers of blood in America, I take them at their word. I think they are boasting. Now maybe they don’t want that to sound hollow, so there is something actually in he works. I do think they are implying that they can do it much sooner than they can.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  158. Some resisted to the point of death,

    I’m sure some did, at the beginning. Personally I don’t recall any heroic stories of valiant men and women protesting or refusing to work for the Nazi’s.

    Others I’m sure at least resisted by doing a crappy job putting those tanks together in the hope that it would fail at an opportune time.

    I’ve heard that some Poles and some French tried to build shoddy items but I have never heard of a loyal German subverting the war effort becaust he didn’t like National Socialism. Have you?

    To the degree that there are Muslims like Zuhdi Jasser they warrant our support and appreciation.

    I don’t have enough information of Zuhdi Jasser to be inclined to say one way or the other. But naming one person or even 1000 persons (which I know you can’t do) makes no difference when there are 1.4 billion moslems. Any moslem who does not physically try and stop jihadis are coconspirators at face value or enablers at best. As of this post there have been no major marches by moslems calling for the end of Jihad, none calling for moslems for peace and none calling for equal rights for Christians and Jews. Moslems remain the dire enemy and your failure and the failure of other Americans and our leaders to face that, call it for what it is and declare war on it is criminal. Our country, our culture our religions, our families and ourselves will be destroyed.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  159. 144. Steve57 (bcaa38) — 11/15/2015 @ 11:50 am

    When ISIS issues statements about how they will unleash rivers of blood in America, I take them at their word.

    I think they are boasting. Now maybe they don’t want that to sound hollow, so there is something actually in he works. I do think they are implying that they can do it much sooner than they can. If it was really going to happen soon, they wouldn’t be saying so.

    Sammy Finkelman (0a978b)

  160. John Hitchcock is absolutely correct. No “devout” moslem ignores vast suras in the Koran calling for the murder, enslavement, taxing etc. of Christians and Jews nor do they ignore the coming of the twelfth caliphate. That would be like a Christian ignoring the Second Coming of Christ.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  161. well the camps, like Auschwitz’s Manowitz satellite, (found out in Winik’s 1944) was one of the manufacturing site, what can you when you are unarmed, and guarded by genocidal forces,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  162. Hoagie
    Have you never heard of Bonheoffer for one???
    He was not alone.

    Having spoken to a few people whose fathers were forced into the Nazi Army as teenagers at threat of death, I am sure there were many who wore the uniform and played the part but never intended to hit anything
    I think for a scared teen who is the last male in the family left to help mom, I’m not sure what more I would ask.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  163. not to mention Niemoller, who was a former U-boat commander, who in his death statement, realized the folly of his life,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  164. Yes, Corrie ten Boom wrote of making shoddy components for the Luftwaffe, I believe.
    But she was Dutch and in a camp.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  165. Well, I see the point about what makes a”devout” Muslim
    But if they say they are Muslim and want American Constitutional government to be the supreme law of the land,
    I’m not going to tell them what they should call themselves.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  166. then there was Dora Nordhausen, that Von Braun managed, with brutal efficiency, which Operation Paper Clip, helped transfer his skills to the space program,

    Among the survivors of Ravensbrück was author Corrie ten Boom, arrested with her family for harbouring Jews in their home in Haarlem, the Netherlands. She documented her ordeal alongside her sister Betsie ten Boom in her book The Hiding Place, which was eventually produced as a motion picture. Polish Countess Karolina Lanckoronska, an art historian and author of Michelangelo in Ravensbruck, was imprisoned there from 1943 utill 1945. Eileen Nearne, a member of the Special Operations Executive, was a prisoner in 1944 before being transferred to another work camp and escaping. Ravensbrück survivors who wrote memoirs about their experiences include Gemma LaGuardia Gluck, sister of New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia,[10] as well as Germaine Tillion, a Ravensbrück survivor from France who published her own eyewitness account of the camp in 1975.[11] Approximately five hundred women from Ravensbrück were transferred to Dachau, where they were assigned as laborers to the Agfa-Commando; the women assembled ignition timing devices for bombs, artillery ammunition and V-1 and V-2 rockets; they used every opportunity to sabotage the production.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  167. If you say no, then explain why this is only happening now, and why every one of them is a convert or “born again.”

    Sammy Finkelman, you have failed to learn from history and are currently repeating it. First, “every one of them” is in no way a convert or what you call born again. I don’t know where you get that idea. What you call born again is what John Hitchcock and I call devout. You need to know I’ve read the Koran cover to cover seven times and outlined it once. I still have my notes and the outline. While I do not profess to be some kind of Christian authority of Islamic theology I can read and I can understand what the suras teach. I also don’t understand what difference it makes if a person is a convert unless you’re suggesting a convert will more closely follow the tenants of the faith. In which case that makes them better or “truer” moslems.

    Also Sammy this is not “only happening now” it’s been happening for 1800 years it’s just America hasn’t been around that long. However, the moslems were causing trouble and killing Americans from day one just in case you haven’t heard of the Barbary pirates. There were at least seven Crusades from 1095 to 1291 to beat back the moslem hoards who were attempting to eradicate Christianity and conquer the world. Study up Sammy. If we don’t bomb them into glass they will be back.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  168. one of the places, one could legitimately, call a ‘valley of the shadow of death’

    http://remember.org/nordhausen

    as an aficionado of the space program, and von braun’s part in it, that really shocked me,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  169. Rev
    I object to your characterization that I do not recognize the threat of Islam.
    I think we should have people undercover in Mosques and deport or jail anyone who advocates the US government be subservient to any other codified law
    And I already said that enablers need to be taken into account along with active participants in jihad. I assume there is some legal principles about when someone is part of a conspiracy by simply staying silent.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  170. have we not seen the treatment Hirsi Ali, suffered in Holland, which forced her to the states, other dissidents from the faith, have fared as badly or worse, that fellow in Bangladesh comes to mind,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  171. 158.
    Christians manage to ignore large sections of the Old Testament even as they say it comes from God (like the verses which state the commandments are for all time), explain away other large sections, and insert meanings into the text that are not there. Yet no one claims they are not devout Christians. In fact, the opposite: the ones who actually pay attention to the text, like Seventh Day Adventists, are the ones seen as out of the mainstream.

    So explaining away a few inconvenient verses in the Quran is child’s play compared to that.

    kishnevi (28fa9f)

  172. Besides
    The relative few like Jassar do not exist according to the media
    If 1,000 people protest and nobody tells you
    Did it happen…

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  173. But if they say they are Muslim and want American Constitutional government to be the supreme law of the land,
    I’m not going to tell them what they should call themselves.

    MD in Philly, if they call themselves moslem and want Constitutional government they are lying about one or the other. Now, let me explain to you that in Islam, in the Koran, it specifically states it is the duty of a believer to lie and decieve to a kafir (you) to further Mohammad. It is also their duty to move in to and infiltrate the lands of the non believer (you, America) which is called Hijar.

    Moslems cannot want a Constitutional government because their religion is their government. They all believe in theocratic dictatorship or haven’t you noticed the lack of all those democracies in the Middle East. Didn’t think so. Besides, if they honestly want a constitutional government, who’s stopping them? They needn’t come to America to do that.

    BTW, they also have another religious duty: to make as many babies as possible.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  174. MD
    Bear in mind that Rev H. believes all Moslems are enablers unless they actively fight jihadism.

    kishnevi (31ba4e)

  175. Kishnevi, child’s play indeed unless you take into consideration Christians don’t intend on wiping out all other religions and taking over the world. Also kishnevi, I don’t think you know as much about Christians as you think you do because if you’re trying to compare devout or practicing or whatever Christians to moslems I’ll just ask this: if they’re basically the same would you live in Syria?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  176. Simply put, radical, ruthless people acting in the name of Islam and its founder, Mohammed, can rightfully claim their interpretation of what a good Muslim should or shouldn’t do is no less in keeping with the history and behavior of — again — the founder of Islam as what non-jihadist Muslims believe and claim.

    Radical, ruthless Christians, by contrast, cannot make a claim that a jihadist version of Christianity is correct given the history and behavior of its founder, Jesus Christ.

    Simply put, when George W Bush stated Islam was a “religion of peace” in 2001, what triggered that was the same teary-eyed sentiment behind his belief that conservatism, in order to make it look and sound like it deserved the seal of approval, needed to be qualified with “compassionate.”

    Mark (f713e4)

  177. 170.Besides
    The relative few like Jassar do not exist according to the media
    If 1,000 people protest and nobody tells you
    Did it happen…

    You know as well as I do MD in Philly if there was a pro peace, pro American demonstration anywhere on earth by fifty people calling themselves moslems the leftist media would say it was the million moslem march for freedom. So don’t give me that crap.

    172.MD
    Bear in mind that Rev H. believes all Moslems are enablers unless they actively fight jihadism.

    Yes I do indeed, kishnevi. If their not fighting against it then they are enabling it. Is there some other avenue I’ve failed to identify? As a matter of fact I’m getting so pissed off at my fellow Americans falling all over themselves trying to be politically correct and not call for the ouster of moslems. There is no reason whatsoever for moslems to live here. They have nothing in common with us. They don’t believe in anything we do. They are here for one reason only: Hijar. There were never any moslems to speak of living in America until they declared jihad.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  178. Rev. H, I was making a point about how people treat scripture. You say ignoring parts of Scripture means a person not devout… By that standard, it is impossible to be a devout Christian, since Christianity, as a matter of doctrine, ignores large portions of what it labels divine revelation.
    Which means your assertion is absurd.

    Radical, ruthless Christians, by contrast, cannot make a claim that a jihadist version of Christianity is correct given the history and behavior of its founder, Jesus Christ.
    For approximately 16 centuries, beginning with the conversion of Constantine, Christianity did in fact attempt to dominate everything they could, using as their rationale a statement by Jesus which is known in Protestant circles as the Great Commission. This fact is partially obscured by the fact that for the first three centuries, and the last four centuries, they were often focused on forcing other Christians to believe the “correct” faith, usually with the authority and often with the violence of the state to enforce their demands. And episodes occurred in the middle period too, witness the Albigensian Crusade. And these Christians thought they were doing a Jesus approved thing.

    kishnevi (9cb6b5)

  179. that’s being a little obtuse, where does the bible demand such means, whereas conversion is an imperative in the Koran,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  180. by contrast, the extreme secular nature of the French government, has made those who are concerned with issues of faith, somewhat more disposed to turn to a more resolute one,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  181. Narciso, you are correct.

    But this did not keep Christians from acting as if it did.

    kishnevi (28fa9f)

  182. My 183 is a reply to your 181.

    kishnevi (28fa9f)

  183. Kishnevi, I understand you may see my opinions as bigoted, they are. The term bigot means to be willingly ignorant or intolerant of another person’s beliefs or opinions. Bigotry is an accusation, which is often used by liberal and marxist types to condemn those people who are not of the same “tolerant” or “open minded” attitude as themselves.

    By using this term they create what I call an infinite loop of intolerance.

    If someone is accused of bigotry then the accusing party must also be intolerant of the accused persons intolerance; therefore, it is self evident that the term bigot in a sense, can not actually exist in a free society or open debate because of it’s self-destructive, self-imploding and hypocritical nature.

    We must put an end to bigotry by “criminalizing” any dissenting point of view. Real life application of this “anti-bigotry” includes hate laws, which are no more than Orwellian type “thought crimes”.

    Yes, I am a bigot. I hate moslems, Nazis and communists. If hating those who would kill us and destroy our country is bigotry, I’m in. If Martians came to blow up America and kill our families I’d hate them too.

    You say ignoring parts of Scripture means a person not devout… By that standard, it is impossible to be a devout Christian, since Christianity, as a matter of doctrine, ignores large portions of what it labels divine revelation.
    Which means your assertion is absurd.

    I’m finding it hard to follow you here. You say that “Christianity, as a matter of doctrine, ignores large portions of the Bible”. So to you that makes it “impossible” to be a devout Christian. First of all, I don’t know of any parts of the Bible I ignore and I’m Lutheran. Secondly, if it is the doctrine to ignore parts of something than to ignore it is devout by definition: it’s doctrine. Not to ignore it is non-devout.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  184. First of all, I don’t know of any parts of the Bible I ignore and I’m Lutheran.
    I gave one large category, the various commandments which are given for all time, like the Sabbath….
    Secondly, if it is the doctrine to ignore parts of something than to ignore it is devout by definition: it’s doctrine. Not to ignore it is non-devout.
    Which is exactly my point: it is possible to ignore parts of scripture yet be devout.

    And yes, you are willingly ignorant. You exhibit no actual knowledge of Islam and how Moslems live.

    kishnevi (28fa9f)

  185. well which commandments exactly, now we have some understanding of the surahs which are certainly more than mere suggestion, and of abrogation which privileges some passages over others,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  186. And these Christians thought they were doing a Jesus approved thing.

    But a Christian (or foe of Islam) doesn’t have to do back flips and the watusi to protect the meaning of Christianity when ruthless deeds are done in the name of Christianity — based on the life and history of Jesus Christ — whereas a Muslim (or foe of Christianity) does have to do back flips and the watusi to makes excuses for Islamism when ruthless deeds are done in the name of Mohammed.

    A heavy dose of moral equivalency is on display when one claims that what can be said about Islam and its radicals/jihadists can also be said about Christianity and its radicals/inquisitionists.

    Mark (f713e4)

  187. yes, all of the rules, are impossible to observe, so we focus on the 10 top ones,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  188. Two things rev, the first the important one
    There certainly were people who considered themselves Muslim in the US prior to the call for jihad in the 80’s or so, unless you want to say all Muslims have always been on jihad

    I don’t believe that all self proclaimed Muslims are lying if they say they want “separation of mosque and state”,
    It may be that they are not “devout” as some would say. Many people consider themselves Jewish though they have little regard for even the ten commandments and have no affinity for “their nation Israel”.
    Just as many in the US have considered themselves Christian because they celebrate a secular Christmas and are not something else.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  189. yes, that is likely true, as Yeats predicting ninety years ago,

    http://my.telegraph.co.uk/discpad/brakeshoe/16153923/the-jihadis-master-plan-to-break-us/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  190. Oh, the second thing
    Do you really think the press would cover a bunch of Muslims who are anti-CAIR and want American Muslims to cooperate with authorities in reporting jihadist sympathizers?
    No way, it goes against the narrative.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  191. true, they trumpet the ground zero imam, where has he run off to?

    narciso (ee1f88)

  192. Jassar was against the ground zero mosque, I believe

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  193. yes he was, and not a few of those who want to dictate our strategy, were in favor, as well as ‘the not ready for prime time rebels’ that at best were weak foils to Islamists,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  194. And yes, you are willingly ignorant. You exhibit no actual knowledge of Islam and how Moslems live.

    That is rude, ignorant and uncalled for kishnevei. I don’t know how you would like me to “exhibit” my knowledge and understanding of Islam and I’m not sure I care. However, you are quite welcome to disagree with me but to denigrate and insult me is uncalled for. I’ve always been polite to you and I expect the same.

    I know quite a bit about Islam, not that I need to prove it to you and I’ve been around 64 years and I’ve seen my share of how moslems live. Do you want to live like them? Is there something wonderful and noble and divine about living in dirt, murdering your neighbors and executing homosexuals. Cause if there is, I’ve missed it.

    MD in Philly, I never said anti-CAIR, I said pro peace. Anti-CAIR would sign the protesters death warrant with the Religion of Peace.

    Now it’s 11:30 and I’m going to bed. Night.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  195. Well, what I was referring to were people who called themselves Muslim and have been vocal against the jihadists and their apologists, including our pres
    And yes, they are at risk

    And G’night

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  196. Did you say the pres was a moslem in #197? Because both he and his minions have been denying that for years. But it’s good to know that atom of truth got through to you. Now, let’s work on that silly nonsense about a bunch of moslems being vocal against jihad.

    190.Two things rev, the first the important one
    There certainly were people who considered themselves Muslim in the US prior to the call for jihad in the 80’s or so, unless you want to say all Muslims have always been on jihad

    I did not say there were no moslems in the US prior to jihad. This is what I said: “There were never any moslems to speak of living in America until they declared jihad.”. The “to speak of” indicates not enough to mention.

    There were no Founding Fathers who were moslems. No George Washington’s ( though he was a 32nd degree Mason and a Knights Templar like myself ), no Franklin’s (also a Mason), and through our history you would need to dig really deep to find a moslem contributor to the United States (or the modern world) like Edison, Salk, Christian Bernard, Picasso, Gershwin, Ford or Steve Jobs. However, cemeteries are filled with moslem contributions to the world and landscapes dotted with memorials to their victims. Now even in France. Soon coming to a theatre near you.

    I understand that it is against the DNA of Americans to be at war with a religion but they are at war with us and the West so you all need to wake up. Yes, it’s a religion but it’s really a theocratic dictatorship hiding in a religion. But that is their nature. They chose it, they practice it and it is up to us to end it. There is little difference between Nazi’s and moslems. Both are dictatorships, both believe in murdering people of other religions and both want to achieve world conquest. I do not understand how Americans can hate the former and “tolerate” the latter. They murder people because of their religion but by modern interpretation I’m the bigot.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  197. No, I did not say Obama is a Muslim, I consider him an apologist for them.
    I think Obama is an anti-West, anti Christian, Marxist leaning secularist.

    As far as the rest, I’ll reply later.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  198. Briefly,
    Maybe the appropriate comparison is not Nazis and Muslims, but Germans (circa WWII) and Muslims.
    Or maybe that is the point of difference,
    You, Rev, compare Muslims with Nazis, all of whom are considered guilty for involvement in the Holocaust, others of us see the comparison with Germans, of whom many were directly culpable, many more enablers, some opposed who didn’t appear to have opposed very forcefully, and few who did act directly when they had the opportunity.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)


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