Patterico's Pontifications

8/1/2015

Gun Used In Pamela Geller Event Purchased Under Obama’s Fast And Furious Program

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:42 pm



[guest post by Dana]

It is being reported that the gun used by a terrorist killed at Pamela Geller’s American Freedom Defense Initiative’s (AFDI) “Mohammed Art Exhibit and Contest” in Garland, Texas, was purchased under the Obama administration’s infamous Fast and Furious gun program:

Five years before he was shot to death in the failed terrorist attack in Garland, Texas, Nadir Soofi walked into a suburban Phoenix gun shop to buy a 9-millimeter pistol.

At the time, Lone Wolf Trading Co. was known among gun smugglers for selling illegal firearms. And with Soofi’s history of misdemeanor drug and assault charges, there was a chance his purchase might raise red flags in the federal screening process.

Inside the store, he fudged some facts on the form required of would-be gun buyers.

What Soofi could not have known was that Lone Wolf was at the center of a federal sting operation known as Fast and Furious, targeting Mexican drug lords and traffickers. The idea of the secret program was to allow Lone Wolf to sell illegal weapons to criminals and straw purchasers, and track the guns back to large smuggling networks and drug cartels.

Instead, federal agents lost track of the weapons and the operation became a fiasco, particularly after several of the missing guns were linked to shootings in Mexico and the 2010 killing of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in Arizona.

It seems that Soofi’s purchase may have slipped through the cracks:

Soofi’s attempt to buy a gun caught the attention of authorities, who slapped a seven-day hold on the transaction, according to his Feb. 24, 2010, firearms transaction record, which was reviewed by the Los Angeles Times. Then, for reasons that remain unclear, the hold was lifted after 24 hours, and Soofi got the 9-millimeter.

In spite of the Dept. of Justice sending an “urgent firearms disposition request” to Lone Wolf for more information about Soofi and the gun in order to “assist in a criminal investigation”, the FBI remains unmoved:

The FBI so far has refused to release any details, including serial numbers, about the weapons used in Garland by Soofi and Simpson. Senate investigators are now pressing law enforcement agencies for answers, raising the chilling possibility that a gun sold during the botched Fast and Furious operation ended up being used in a terrorist attack against Americans.

Not only did guns purchased in the Fast and Furious operation find their way into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels, but they also found their way into the hands of a radical Islamic terrorist inside the United States.

–Dana

81 Responses to “Gun Used In Pamela Geller Event Purchased Under Obama’s Fast And Furious Program”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. So, who’s chickens are coming home to roost now?

    ropelight (e6eb9d)

  3. Pretend I have a (D) after my name.
    This matters how? #1 Six degrees of separation and then #2 the hey its only Pam Geller who might have been shot excuse

    steveg (fed1c9)

  4. And the corruption and flagrant disregard for America, the law and our citizenry goes on unabated. But God forbid somebody shoots a freekin’ cat.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  5. I keep on feeling shocked. Every day is a new horror…and I wonder if the American people are hearing any of this.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  6. I could use a few of those fast and furious guns to shoot down drones.

    mg (31009b)

  7. this somehow pales next to failmerica handing Iran 150 billion jew-killing dollars

    happyfeet (831175)

  8. 150 billion jew-killing dollars
    I know I shouldn’t
    but I’m laughing

    mg (31009b)

  9. happyfeet, every time you post lately it’s a stone downer.

    ropelight (e6eb9d)

  10. What? They got the gun back didn’t they?

    Geeze, you guys.

    mojo (a3d457)

  11. mojo (a3d457) — 8/1/2015 @ 5:41 pm

    That man is a true optimist.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  12. I am shocked! Not that this came out, but that the LA Times is reporting it.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  13. Treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors….

    Edoc118 (ffe670)

  14. Remember that this Fast and Furious operation had less to do with tracking guns into Mexico than providing justification for Obama’s attempt to dismantle the Second Amendment. Lone Wolf Traders didn’t have much choice in cooperating with the Injustice Department regarding those “Straw Man” purchases because the BATFE not only decides who gets an FFL but who gets to keep it.

    “Nice little shop you got here. It’d be a shame if something happened that forced us to close it down.”

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  15. So….Soofi may or may not have used a gun bought at Lobe Wolf. That gun may or may not have been distributed though F&F.

    In the overall scheme that matters very little, unless you take the position that he would have not been able to get a gun in the intervening four years except through this means. And that he was already planning a piece of terrotism in 2010, as opposed to buying the gun for protection and then repurposing it to terrorism this spring. Both unlikely but not impossible.

    The one thing that can not be disputed is that it shows once more that background checks and other prior restraints on gun ownership do not really work.

    kishnevi (93670d)

  16. So, the Obama administration armed one Muslim terrorist.

    If, if, this report proves to be true, the Obama administration intends to prosecute a Navy officer for shooting at another Muslim terrorist who was killing sailors and marines on his installation.

    http://allenbwest.com/2015/08/whats-happening-to-this-heroic-navy-officer-from-the-chattanooga-shooting-will-make-your-blood-boil/

    I never like to be reactionary and follow anything that may just be hyperbole or conspiracy theory. That’s why I held off on addressing this issue until I got confirmation — which came Friday afternoon via text message.

    …Ladies and gents, resulting from the text message I received yesterday, I can confirm that the United States Navy is bringing charges against Lt. Cmdr Timothy White for illegally discharging a firearm on federal property.

    …The text message asked if it would be possible for Lt.Cmdr White to reach out to me. To wit I replied, affirmative.

    What kind of freaking idiots are in charge of our Armed Forces — pardon me, our “unArmed Forces”? What would they prefer that Abdulazeez had been able to kill all the Marines and Sailors at the Naval Support Reserve Center? Let me draw an interesting contrast: Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus is more concerned about lifting the ban on transgendered Sailors. Mabus has a problem in that for the first time since 2007 the US Navy will not have a Carrier Battle Group operating in the Persian Gulf. But this knucklehead has no problem with the Navy seeking to destroy the career of a Sailor, a commander of an installation, returning fire against an Islamic jihadist attack. I do not care if it was his personal weapon, he deserves a medal for facing the enemy.

    Fitting. Obama is doing his damndest to arm Iran, and disarm the US.

    Again, I’ll wait for more confirmation. But this is exactly what I expect from this treasonous President.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  17. It’s time to put Obama on the no-fly list and name his Administration as a terrorist organization.

    ropelight (c40224)

  18. sheikh eric holder
    used to defend terrorists
    before he armed them

    Colonel Haiku (3bf827)

  19. “You can keep your guns… if you fit the right profile.”

    – Barack Abu-Obama

    Colonel Haiku (3bf827)

  20. But that’s ok, because… #gunsense…

    IGotBupkis, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." (225d0d)

  21. Keeping embarrassing (to the government) quiet–Nothing to see here:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/16-media-groups-fight-gag-order-waco-biker-32674718

    All 177 people arrested initially were held on a $1 million bond on charges of engaging in organized criminal activity. Only three remain in jail and there have been no indictments.

    The order was written by McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna, who is among officials named in Clendennen’s suit, and issued by Reyna’s former law partner, District Judge Matt Johnson. The judge also has issued a protective order preventing public release of a surveillance video of the scene.

    In granting the gag order, Johnson said he was acting to prevent pretrial publicity from influencing potential jurors.

    No information released at all…

    BfC (8661e2)

  22. Why is this not surprising.

    Corruption is thy middle name Obola.

    Rodney King's Spirit (9225a4)

  23. The timeline here is interesting. Soofi, Soofi’s younger brother, and Simpson were roommates in Phoenix when Soofi and Simpson attacked the Geller event in Garland, Texas. I don’t know how long they had lived together but it appears they had both lived in Phoenix for several years.

    Simpson was arrested in January 2010 for lying in connection with alleged terrorist connections. He was convicted of lying to the FBI but the Judge ruled the prosecution did not prove Simpson had terrorist connections. Meanwhile, Soofi bought the gun one month later in February 2010, also in Phoenix.

    Were they already roommates and was this why the government initially put a hold on Soofi’s gun purchase? Or did Soofi’s reported criminal record trigger the review? Maybe both, but either way, why was this purchase approved without any effort to follow up or trail the gun?

    DRJ (1dff03)

  24. DRJ, you are presuming that the administration wanted to prevent criminals from getting guns. My reading of Fast and Furious was that the whole thing was designed to create mayhem with the expectation that in the following crisis, great opportunity would arise. And what could be more useful to an administration that saw “work place violence” at Fort Hood, than to arm another jihadi. It’s right out of their play book.

    The curious thing is that so few have come forward to shed light on this fiasco. There must be a few honest men still drawing a pay check from this government.

    bobathome (f50725)

  25. I assume the government wanted to promote cross-border and/or Cartel violence, not Islamic violence. Even the Obama Administration would realize how bad that looks after 9/11.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  26. There must be a few honest men still drawing a pay check from this government.

    Sure, there must be a few honest men on Uncle Sugar’s payroll, statistically speaking, but most of them are career men and many are family men as well. It sure would be a shame if some discontented racist harboring a grudge let his stupid blabbermouth put a shadow over the future well being of his wife and children.

    ropelight (c40224)

  27. DRJ, the administration does not see “Islamic violence”, it’s all workplace violence, or lack of economic opportunity, or inexplicable madness. And in 2010, the media was carrying the administration’s water, just as they are today. The difference now is that the truth of the “workplace violence” straw man has been discredited beyond repair by events that the lapdog media cannot hide. Pretty much everyone knows that we are all targets of jihadi violence. But we think the odds are good that our neighbor will be the next victim, not us. An Iranian A Bomb will change this calculation.

    As I see it, some mid-level civil servant got the application from the gun shop and flagged it as needing further study. This was sent up the line until it reached a political appointee who noticed that the shop was part of Fast and Furious, and he saw opportunity where others would have followed the law. Before Obola, this chain of decisions would have been recorded and Congress would have been able to identify the actors. Now it’s all just a big mystery.

    Obola is doing more to dispell the notion that the government is the solution to all our problems than all the right wing think tanks and authors combined. And this lesson is likely to persist beyond his term of office.

    bobathome (f50725)

  28. Before F&F was exposed, the ATF had a couple of news events where they paraded a dozen ‘assault weapons’ the Mexican govt had collected after a mass shooting in Mexico. This was presented as ‘evidence’ the US was supplying guns to the rest of the world and that had to stop. Included in the ‘stop’ order was a section to repeal the Second Amendment…..And F&F started under BUSH 43! 44 and Holder just expanded what they found.

    dee (110bec)

  29. No, dee, even Holder had to admit when he was under oath that Wide Receiver, the Bush era program, was not the same as F&F. There were too many significant differences to equate the two as remotely alike.

    You can watch CSpan video of Sen. Cornyn (R-TX) nail Holder to the wall and Holder saying “I’m not trying to equate the two” when confronted with the factual differences between them.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/under-oath-holder-discredits-bush-did-it-too-excuse-for-gunwalker

    Under oath, Holder discredits ‘Bush did it too’ excuse for ‘Gunwalker’

    It has become clear that for administration apologists, the favored approach for dealing with the “Project Gunwalker” fallout is to loudly shout “Bush did it too!” (as if that would somehow mitigate the atrocity of our government aiding in the murder two of federal law enforcement officers and hundreds of Mexican citizens). If this had not been obvious before yesterday’s Senate Judiciary Committee hearing with Attorney General Eric Holder, it certainly is now, with Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY) enthusiastically beating that drum.

    In 75 seconds of pointed questioning of Attorney General Holder (see sidebar video), Senator John Cornyn has perhaps left the excuse makers scrambling for something better. In that time, he asked Holder if he knew that Operation Wide Receiver (the Bush-era operation) actually did involve an attempt to track the firearms, while Fast and Furious did not. Cornyn then asked Holder if he knew that Operation Wide Receiver was run in conjunction with the Mexican government–Fast and Furious was kept secret from not only Mexico, but from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) attaché to Mexico, Darren Gil. Gil, in fact, after discovering on his own what was going on, was basically pushed into retirement when he balked at the near act of war of “walking” guns into Mexico without the Mexican government’s knowledge or permission…

    Senator, I have not tried to equate the two–I have not tried to equate Wide Receiver with Fast and Furious. . . . Again, I’m not trying to equate the two.

    Eric Holder, administration spokesweasel, cornered rat, forced to admit truth. Bush “didn’t do it, too.”

    But then the Obama administration went back to lying when not under oath so trolls like you can come along and repeat those lies that were exposed as lies years ago.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  30. Fast & Furious Was . . . Bush’s Fault

    On the Obama administration’s watch. That is the biggest problem with the Democrats’ strategy. Fast & Furious did not begin until 2009, months after the end of the Bush administration. Given that, one might think that even today’s Democrats would be unable with a straight face to lay this disaster at the feet of Obama’s predecessor. But then one wouldn’t know today’s Democrats.

    The key to their strategy is conflating two very different programs: Operation Fast & Furious and a Bush era ATF initiative known as “Operation Wide Receiver.”…

    …Wide Receiver actually involved not gun-walking but controlled delivery. Unlike gun-walking, which seems (for good reason) to have been unheard of until Fast & Furious, controlled delivery is a very common law enforcement tactic. Basically, the agents know the bad guys have negotiated a deal to acquire some commodity that is either illegal itself (e.g., heroin, child porn) or illegal for them to have/use (e.g., guns, corporate secrets). The agents allow the transfer to happen under circumstances where they are in control — i.e., they are on the scene conducting surveillance of the transfer, and sometimes even participating undercover in the transfer. As soon as the transfer takes place, they can descend on the suspects, make arrests, and seize the commodity in question — all of which makes for powerful evidence of guilt.

    …To the contrary, Fast & Furious involved uncontrolled deliveries — of thousands of weapons. It was an utterly heedless program in which the feds allowed these guns to be sold to straw purchasers — often leaning on reluctant gun dealers to make the sales. The straw purchasers were not followed by close physical surveillance; they were freely permitted to bulk transfer the guns to, among others, Mexican drug gangs and other violent criminals — with no agents on hand to swoop in, make arrests, and grab the firearms.

    …As Sen. Cornyn pointed out, there is another major distinction between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious. The former was actually a coordinated effort between American and Mexican authorities…

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/282606/fast-furious-was-bushs-fault-andrew-c-mccarthy

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  31. Yeoman’s work S-57, well done.

    ropelight (c40224)

  32. The thing is, The BATF has been a potent source of political embarrassment ever since Nixon (drat him) presided over its creation. It doesn’t seem to matter whether the occupant of the White House is a Cornfed Hick Democrat, a battling Conservative Republican, and establishment stooge, an outsider, an insider, or covered with purple polka-dots. The BTAF turns everything it touches into merde.

    Did Obama sign off on this travesty? Maybe. Probably. Did they tell him it ha fall been in place for months and if he didn’t give the go-ahead it would be called out in Congress as a sign of weakness on the War On Drugs? Again, probably. Or, knowing the BATF, they may have faked a signature or two and gone ahead, and jug-ears stonewalled because that’s what he does.

    The problem isn’t Obama. He may have added a curlycue or so, but this simply stinks of BATF SOP. Come up with a sexy name, bully a bunch of civilians, throw your weight around, and when somebody finally gets around to asking what the F*CK you thought you were doing in the first place, you don’t have an answer. These clowns couldn’t lead a pack of hungry vampires to a blood-bank.

    The question isn’t “What nefarious plan of Obama’s were these Federal Keystone Kops carrying out.” The question is, when are we going to get a President, Democrat OR Republican, with the native wit to realize that if he puts the whole agency on paid leave pending disbandment, by executive order on his first day in office, then he has one less potential scandal to deal with for the rest of his term.

    C. S. P. Schofield (ab2cdc)

  33. I was told that they invented the ATF in order to make the FBI appear competent.

    Gazzer (f205c8)

  34. bobathome,

    You may be right but I don’t see Fast and Furious as a bottom-up or even a middle-management program. I see it as a top-down program by the Obama Administration that it took extraordinary efforts to hide.

    In addition, Obama knows Muslim terrorism is real. When he was Senator Obama, he had no problem identifying it as Islamic extremism when he was running for President. It’s only as President that he has tried to downplay Muslim extremism, and I think that’s because he desperately wants to cling to his claim there haven’t been any terror attacks on his watch — not because he thinks it doesn’t exist. I think that’s also why he and Holder would be more careful selling guns to Muslims than to Mexicans.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  35. Obama sells guns to Mexicans, he gives them to Muslims along with free shipping and handling.

    ropelight (c40224)

  36. True, ropelight. He doesn’t seem to mind arming Iran’s terorists.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  37. Plus about 3/4 billion worth of trucks and equipment that the Iraquis left intact for ISIS, as they fled.

    Gazzer (f205c8)

  38. When I think of all the members of the media throughout the US who are philosophically and politically furthering the US becoming more and more like a version of its neighbor to the south, they should live the reality of what they’re sowing by relocating to the middle of what very well could be a glimpse into our future.

    latimes.com, August 2: The young photographer had fled the state of Veracruz in fear for his life to seek security in Mexico City. On Sunday, his fellow journalists mourned the loss of Ruben Espinosa, shot to death two days earlier in a middle-class neighborhood in the capital. Espinosa, 31, is the 12th journalist who worked in the state of Veracruz to be killed since 2011. Three more are missing.

    Espinosa’s body was found along with those of four women who were also killed late Friday. He had been tied up, his face showed signs of a severe beating, and he had been shot twice in the chest.

    Espinosa, who worked for a number of respected Mexican newsmagazines, including Proceso and Cuarto Oscuro, specialized in covering social movements and was involved in protests seeking justice for the journalists killed in Veracruz. He fled the state on Mexico’s east coast in early June after being harassed, later telling the Mexican political website SinEmbargo that his house had been under surveillance.

    The threats against Espinosa started before he fled Veracruz. He described in the SinEmbargo interview how, during a student protest against Veracruz State Governor Javier Duarte in 2012, a man he identified as a plainclothes police officer grabbed him by the scruff of the neck. He said the officer told him to stop taking photos unless he wanted to end up like Regina Martinez, a journalist who was killed in her home in Veracruz earlier in 2012.

    Duarte’s administration has been the most deadly for journalists in the history of the state, and the governor has been criticized for his comments about such crimes. During a speech in Veracruz on July 1 he accused some journalists of working for organized crime.

    Veracruz state, which is also plagued by drug cartel violence, is the worst offender in a country that is one of the most dangerous in the world for journalists. According to some counts, 88 journalists have been killed in Mexico since 2000 (tallies vary because different organizations use different criteria). Seven journalists have been killed so far this year, more than the five that were killed during 2014.

    Mark (f32097)

  39. 44 and Holder just expanded what they found.

    dee (110bec) — 8/2/2015 @ 12:36 pm

    And even if this were true, don’t you think any reasonable President and/or Attorney General would have reviewed the program and found it wanting? Dee, this is like blaming a mass murder on someone else who who was dumping trash in the recycle bin.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  40. it’s interesting how crime tv, has seen Fast and Furious, only the departed CSI Miami did an episode around the time it came out, shows like SOA and the Dallas revamp, blamed the CIA, NCIS saw it as an embarassment, at no time is the administration’s complicity ever suggested,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  41. I was reading gun forums about F&F and how 43 had a similar program. I wasn’t aware of Holder having his feet held to the fire, and having to tell the truth. I cut the cord 4 years ago, so I don’t have access to C-Span and the other cable news. But from what I had seen, F&F was being reported as a continuation of previous programs; I’m glad that wasn’t the case. Not a troll, just slightly uninformed….it happens.

    dee (4f5cda)

  42. Good show, dee.

    ropelight (c40224)

  43. dee, I’m sorry I jumped to that conclusion.

    It’s just frustrating to watch Obama and his organized crime family lie to everyone, then when forced by circumstances (trying to convince Chief Justice Roberts to save Obamacare, trying to avoid perjury in Holder’s case) admit that the truth is the opposite of what they’ve been saying, and then just as soon as they’re out of danger reverting to the old lie as if nothing had happened.

    And the media goes along with whatever Obama’s story is at the moment.

    So if you cut the cord you’d never know that the “Bush did it, too” meme was a lie all along.

    I hope you’ll continue to contribute to the forum.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  44. I thought they created the ATF to help inventory my grandpa’s garage

    steveg (fed1c9)

  45. The ATF is the original revenue service, going back to 1789. They were the “revenooers” moon-shiners hid from. Its most famous “agent” was George Washington who, as President, put on his general’s uniform and led his army in the field to collect the Whiskey Tax.

    Well … kinda like that, anyway.

    nk (dbc370)

  46. something like that, they were part of treasury, then the prohibition bureau, and split off in the 50s,
    and consolidated after the 68 Omnibus Crime Bill,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  47. I was reading gun forums about F&F and how 43 had a similar program. I wasn’t aware of Holder having his feet held to the fire, and having to tell the truth. I cut the cord 4 years ago, so I don’t have access to C-Span and the other cable news. But from what I had seen, F&F was being reported as a continuation of previous programs; I’m glad that wasn’t the case. Not a troll, just slightly uninformed….it happens.

    dee (4f5cda) — 8/2/2015 @ 7:10 pm

    I don’t think you were seen as a troll. More like someone with simply an uninformed POV. For my part, I’m just gonna dial it back a bit. You understand that websites like this see so many lefties that have a firm view and want to push it no matter the proof to contrary. The plus is you’re now a known name and we know we can converse with you.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  48. BTW, Dee, do you remember what gun forums were misleading you like that?

    Bill H (2a858c)

  49. Actually, Bill, I did call him a troll. It was my mistake.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  50. Bill H, I read a lot of forums and blogs. I can’t really put my finger on one that was reporting/commenting about F&F and similar 4 or 5 years ago. It was just the impression I got at the time; it’s really hard trying to keep up with everything going on. Especially if you have to dig it up yourself. I record ABC,CBS,and NBC nightly news, being able to skip the commercials means I can view all 3 in an hour. It’s fascinating to see how each of them reports the same story, explains a lot of the confusion out here. It’s even more enlightening to see what all 3 skip covering…

    dee (1fcf56)

  51. Univision, did a review of Fast and Furious weapons recovered through their Ministry of Defense, which went down the memory hole,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  52. dee, you might consider checking out Megyn Kelly, The Kelly File on FOX NEWS for current events. She’ll provide an interesting counterbalance along with some light entertainment to your usual faux news diet. She’s smart, tough, and doesn’t take any crap.

    ropelight (4c7a33)

  53. Actually, Bill, I did call him a troll. It was my mistake.

    Steve57 (5a07a9) — 8/3/2015 @ 12:53 am

    Eh- you’ve apologized, everyone else backed up a little, and Dee has been given a little knowledge. It all worked out.

    Bill H, I read a lot of forums and blogs. I can’t really put my finger on one that was reporting/commenting about F&F and similar 4 or 5 years ago. It was just the impression I got at the time; it’s really hard trying to keep up with everything going on. Especially if you have to dig it up yourself. I record ABC,CBS,and NBC nightly news, being able to skip the commercials means I can view all 3 in an hour. It’s fascinating to see how each of them reports the same story, explains a lot of the confusion out here. It’s even more enlightening to see what all 3 skip covering…

    dee (1fcf56) — 8/3/2015 @ 11:08 am

    Same thing here. I have just a few websites that I actually follow (here, Ace Of Spades, Overlawyered, occasionally Hot Air and Breibart). There’s so much you have to narrow it down or else you wind up in overload. I was just curious if you remembered who said what. I don’t even bother with the AlphaBits networks anymore.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  54. 35. Obama sells guns to Mexicans, he gives them to Muslims along with free shipping and handling.

    ropelight (c40224) — 8/2/2015 @ 4:10 pm

    36. True, ropelight. He doesn’t seem to mind arming Iran’s terorists.

    DRJ (1dff03) — 8/2/2015 @ 4:15 pm

    Or providing Muslim terrorists with free legal services when they use those arms, and Americans sue them for damages.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/03/white-house-mulling-intervention-in-massive-judgment-against-palestinians-in/?intcmp=hpbt2

    The Obama administration has signaled it may intervene next week in a civil lawsuit in which 11 American families won a potential billion-dollar judgment from the Palestinian leadership over a series of bombings and shootings that killed or wounded dozens of U.S. citizens, a move that critics say would find the government siding with terrorists over its own citizens.

    And it isn’t the first time this administration has sided with terrorists against its own citizens.

    …John Bolton, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and a Fox News contributor, said the administration would be wrong to assert a diplomatic role in the case.

    “Palestine is not a state, and is therefore, not entitled to be treated like a state,” Bolton told Fox News. “It does not enjoy sovereign immunity and it would be wrong for the United States government to argue otherwise in federal court.”

    So it appears this administration has already recognized the West Bank and Gazan cabal of terror groups as a legitimate state.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  55. If, if, this report proves to be true, the Obama administration intends to prosecute a Navy officer for shooting at another Muslim terrorist who was killing sailors and marines on his installation.

    Turns out not to be true.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  56. No, Milhouse, you are jumping the gun. The Navy is seriously considering doing exactly that.

    The Navy is claiming that since no one has yet been charged the internet reports aren’t true.

    But no one has ever claimed that anyone has already been charged.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2015/08/03/video-navy-wont-rule-out-charges-against-chattanooga-defender/

    No charges have been filed as of yet, but the Navy released a statement in which they declined to proscribe the possibility of discipline for Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White:

    A Navy official told Fox News that punishing a lieutenant commander who used an unauthorized weapon to fire back at the Chattanooga gunman who shot and killed five service members could not be “completely ruled out,” and two high-profile former military officers, including presidential candidate Jim Webb, say the Navy is at least seriously considering charging the man.

    The Navy said in a statement that it had not charged any service members with an offense at the present time.

    “Stories of Navy personnel being charged with an offense are not true,” the statement said. “There is still a long way to go in reviewing the facts of this tragic incident, but at this time we can confirm no service member has been charged with an offense.”

    The fact the Navy is attacking a straw man is telling. Those aren’t the stories. The stories remain true. They are seriously considering it. I read the charge against the straw men as revealing intent. If the autopsy reveals LCDR White didn’t hit Abdulazzeez, they intend to charge him.

    The justification being, “See, your personal weapons don’t make you safer because in this one incident the OIC didn’t hit the target.” (OK, they won’t put it quite like that) “So listen to your betters and obey our gun-free-zone orders!”

    If they didn’t intend to charge him should the moon and the sun and the stars line up right, they’d have dropped the idea already. In fact, the Secretary of the Navy Mabus would have quashed it.

    If you buy into the regime straw man then, yes, that rumor that isn’t circulating also isn’t true.

    The answer? Don’t buy into the regime straw man argument, Milhouse.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  57. But you tell me, Milhouse.

    What do you imagine isn’t true?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  58. You do understand the difference between my take, which is in the future tense, “intends to.”

    And the Navy’s attempt to refute what people like me are saying, which is in the past tense, “no service member has been charged?”

    You do understand there is a difference between what people are saying, and what the Navy is arguing against? That is the Navy has definitively refuted what people like me are not saying anyway.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  59. Well of course they have to consider whether to charge him. He broke the rule, after all. But there’s no reason to suppose that the “consideration” will consist of more than an automatic “of course not”.

    How would Jim Webb, or any other “high-profile former military officer” know anything about the state of this case, what is being considered, or how seriously? All they can comment on is how these things usually work, or rather how they usually worked in their day. Which means their knowledge long predates 0bama, and does not reflect anything he has done.

    But no one has ever claimed that anyone has already been charged.

    The story Allen West circulated claimed that “the United States Navy is bringing charges”. That claim is false.

    If they didn’t intend to charge him should the moon and the sun and the stars line up right, they’d have dropped the idea already. In fact, the Secretary of the Navy Mabus would have quashed it.

    Why would he do that? I’m sure the reports and recommendations haven’t reached his desk yet, and he’d naturally not want to say anything that would interfere with the process before that.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  60. What do you imagine isn’t true?

    The whole story is not true. West’s claim that the navy “is bringing charges” was outright false. Your claim that they intend to bring charges has no basis in fact; it is nothing but your own paranoid imagining. Bringing such a charge would expose the officers who recommended it to ridicule, especially among the people they have to live with.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  61. 61. …Your claim that they intend to bring charges has no basis in fact; it is nothing but your own paranoid imagining.

    By “paranoid imagining” I take you mean “experience.” It’s always good to learn from someone who has more experience with the Navy than I have, though. How many years were you in again, Milhouse.

    Bringing such a charge would expose the officers who recommended it to ridicule, especially among the people they have to live with.

    Milhouse (a04cc3) — 8/4/2015 @ 12:27 am

    That’s never stopped them before.

    But then, I defer to your expertise.

    Do you have any sea stories you want to tell?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  62. 60. How would Jim Webb, or any other “high-profile former military officer” know anything about the state of this case, what is being considered, or how seriously? All they can comment on is how these things usually work, or rather how they usually worked in their day. Which means their knowledge long predates 0bama, and does not reflect anything he has done…

    Milhouse (a04cc3) — 8/4/2015 @ 12:23 am

    An old salt like you should have lots of personal contacts who are still in.

    That’s “how things usually work.”

    So come on, you old sea dog, what are your contacts telling you?

    You did know that’s how things usually work, right? It’s why I know more than just how things used to work when I was in.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  63. I guess you’ve answered my question @59, Milhouse.

    You don’t know the difference between past, present and future tense.

    If you did know the difference, then you’d know that “AT THIS TIME we can confirm no service member HAS BEEN charged with an offense” does not render what people are actually saying about what the Navy IS DOING or INTENDS TO DO patently false.

    I suggest remedial English courses, counselor.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  64. http://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrma/news/media.html

    The following information is provided in reference to the USS MAHAN (DDG 72) SHOOTING.

    Tsk, tsk, tsk. Somebody didn’t take the lessons learned seriously, it seems.

    The link to the JAGMAN proves particularly useful in that regard.

    So does the link to this. Attention to citation.

    The President of the United States takes pride in presenting the
    NAVY AND MARINE CORPS MEDAL posthumously to

    MASTER-AT-ARMS SECOND CLASS MARK A. MAYO
    UNITED STATES NAVY

    for service as set forth in the following

    CITATION:

    For heroism while serving at Naval Station Norfolk Security Detachment, Norfolk, Virginia on 24 March 2014. While performing his duties as Chief of the Guard, Petty Officer Mayo was alerted to a suspicious individual walking towards USS MAHAN (DDG 72) on Pier 1, Naval Station Norfolk. Petty Officer Mayo pursued the individual up the brow of the ship while both he and the Quarterdeck watch-standers directed the individual to stop and provide identification. Failing to comply, the individual approached the Quarterdeck, attacked and disarmed the Petty Officer of the Watch. After boarding the ship, Petty Officer Mayo realized that the Petty Officer of the Watch no longer had control of her weapon. With complete and total disregard for his own personal safety, Petty Officer Mayo immediately placed himself between the Petty Officer of the Watch and the assailant. While fearlessly engaging the assailant and shielding the Petty Officer of the Watch, Petty Officer Mayo was fatally wounded. His exceptionally brave actions saved the lives of four watch-standers and ensured the safety of the entire crew of USS MAHAN (DDG 72). By his courageous and prompt actions in the face of great personal risk, Petty Officer Mayo prevented the loss of lives, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

    For the President,
    JONATHAN W. GREENERT
    Admiral, United States Navy

    LCDR White showed bad form for being unwilling to accept similar posthumous awards.

    Under very similar circumstances. Which somebody should have corrected. Somebody other than LCDR White.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  65. Scuttlebutt. Meaning rumor or gossip. Derived from the water cask (butt) which was scuttled (knocked open) that sailors drank water out of. Equivalent to office water cooler.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. There is no difference between “is charging” and “has charged”. Charging someone takes an instant, but the person remains charged until he is either convicted or acquitted. Thus “has been charged” means the same as “is charged”: a charge is now active. Once it’s been resolved, the correct term becomes not “has been charged” but “was charged”, or “faced charges”.

    Webb retired in 1972; how many personal contacts could he have who are still in?

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  67. seeing how the dodged like Bre’r rabbit to refuse to acknowledge ft hood, it seems a reasonable conjecture,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  68. 67. …Webb retired in 1972; how many personal contacts could he have who are still in?

    Milhouse (a04cc3) — 8/4/2015 @ 7:57 am

    Willful ignorance on your part, perhaps? Just playing coy, you old sea dog?

    Do you really want to pretend that Webb could only have contacts inside the sea services from dating from his own time in uniform? None from his time in other positions such as Secretary of the Navy and his time on the Senate Armed Services committee.

    He’s a ring knocker; do you doubt he’s a member of the Naval Academy Alumni Association?

    I’m sure I don’t have to tell a guy with all your sea time this, Milhouse, but that Alumni Association isn’t limited to retirees. It includes alumni who are still in.

    Then there’s this.

    http://www.military.com/spouse/military-life/military-resources/military-and-veteran-associations.html

    I bet Webb belongs to a couple. Hey, I belong to one, and could belong to more.

    Come on, shipmate. You know better than that.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  69. Sometimes Milhouse, you must realize you’re not the smartest guy in the room. In this case you need to admit the Squid knows what he’s talkin’ bout and move on. At this point it appears you’re flogging a dead horse into oblivion.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  70. Or would that be a Seahorse into oblivion?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  71. Oh, yeah, and his son is/was until recently also a Marine.

    Yeah, right. James Webb couldn’t have any contacts in the service because he retired in 1972.

    My dad retired from the USCG and he was still a member of the USCG Chief’s Association and a couple of other fraternal organizations when he passed in 2014. He was a plank owner and secretary/treasurer of the local chapter of the Chief Petty Officer’s Association in 1964 and he was secretary of this chapter of an active duty Chief Petty Offer’s Association off and on until 2004.

    Hell, they know me. I can call and email some of those USCG chiefs if I want the inside information just on the basis of me being my father’s son and because they know I served, too.

    Quite playing coy, old Salt. Anybody with all those years on their sea time counter would know this sort of thing.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  72. Forgot the year. My dad retired in 1967.

    By the way, forgot to add, and I’m sure Commodore Milhouse is aware of this, but military retirees get an ID card and still have base privileges. So if I want to go and hang out at the Officer’s Club I can. My dad could have hung out at the Chief’s Club, and probably did on occasion, although not less frequently during his last 10 years or so. But when I dropped by the club to let them know he had died and to find out who to talk to to arrange an honor guard and maybe a fly-by I was writing down my contact info on the back of a newsletter stacked on a table, and I looked up and there was a picture of my dad 50 years ago along with the others who established the club. I pointed him out of the line up and said, “Yeah, that’s my dad.”

    The current chapter President had unbeknownst to me walked up behind me and when he said that he blurted out his name. “What? That so-and-so is dead?”

    Yes, it’s virtually impossible James Webb could have any contacts still in the service because he took the uniform off in 1972.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  73. None of that gives him special knowledge about the intentions of those investigating the incident.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  74. he also had a stint as Secretary of the Navy,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  75. Which still doesn’t give him any special knowledge about what is actually happening in this case.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  76. Of course, Commodore Mlhouse. No former Secretary of the Navy and former Senator who was on the Armed Services Committee as recently as 2011 could possibly have any contacts inside the Navy close to the investigation.

    Why, such imaginings! It is an impossibility!

    If former Senator Webb were to call even Ray Mabus personally, Ray Mabus would say, “James Webb who?”

    At least, that’s what Commodore Milhouse would tell you.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  77. You really don’t get it, Milhouse. You’re sounding excessive, unreasonable and obsessive. Is this really the hill you want to die on? Steve57, a Squid of many years experience and many contacts believes the facts he laid for us does indeed ” give him (Webb) any special knowledge about what is actually happening in this case.”. You suppose it does not. You have no way of knowing, Steve57 does.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  78. Wouldn’t it be unethical, and even illegal, for anyone involved in the investigation to tell Webb of their plans?

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  79. You mean like it was unethical and possibly illegal for someone to leak the Mishap report that placed the blame for LT Kara Hultgren’s own death on pilot error when the Navy cooked the books and issued a false JAGMAN investigation? Boorda essentially had a simulation faked so he could falsely blame the engine and save his diversity program.

    Whoever leaked that Mishap report did it to save the career of her flight instructor, who tried to down her when she was training at the Fleet Replacement Squadron for the exact same mistakes that later got her killed.

    He wasn’t on board with the “put a woman in a fighter at all costs” concept.

    Yes, it was highly unethical to leak the report but it was even more unethical to try and fry a good officer.

    Come on, Commodore, you don’t know how the JOPA works?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  80. http://www.aim.org/publications/aim_report/1998/notes/04bn.pdf

    …I DECIDED TO USE THE BURNS CASE, MAINLY BECAUSE IT WAS LESS COMPLICATED. HERE is my statement, slightly edited. “We have a Navy lieutenant, Jerry Burns, who leaked personnel records of two fellow officers. He leaked them because these two officers were not properly trained to fly fighter planes in the Navy. One of them was killed as a result in a fatal accident. This was a dangerous situation, but orders were coming down from the top that these people had to be given special breaks so they could qualify to fly the fighter planes. These two officers were both women. The policy was that women were going to be advanced to fighter pilots whether they passed or not. He leaked the records of the two women to prove it. What has happened to Jerry Burns? His story has not been reported by the press. The Washington Times is the only one that has given it any attention that I’ve seen. He has now been censured and his career has been effectively ended by the Secretary of the Navy because he performed a public service. The Senate Armed Services Committee got the policy changed, at least in the case of one of these officers (the one not killed in the plane crash). Jerry Burns is being persecuted, and nobody is writing editorials and articles saying this is terrible.”

    Actually he leaked the information to save lives. The Navy was h3ll bent on putting these women in the cockpit regardless of the costs, and Burns was aware of how high those costs could be. None of the lives lost would be Inside-the-Beltway O-7s and higher.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/839386/posts

    Disgraced, Failed Female Navy Pilot Pursues Vendetta Against Organization that “Outed” Her

    … The Court acknowledged that some Navy officials disagreed with Donnelly’s conclusions, even as they confirmed that the facts she had obtained from her source were “largely accurate.” The opinion affirms that Donnelly had the First Amendment right to question “the Navy’s ‘party line’,” especially since experienced aviators who reviewed Lohrenz’s training records told her that they were the worst they had ever seen.

    The controversy began in 1994, when one of the women’s instructors, then-Lt. Patrick (Jerry) Burns, expressed his concerns to local commanders about the women’s safety and competence. In the aftermath of the Tailhook scandal, Burns and other instructors were told that the women were going to graduate to the fleet, “no matter what.”

    Navy public affairs officials led the nation to believe that Lt. Hultgreen’s death was primarily due to engine failure, rather than pilot error. At that point Burns called and then sent a signed letter to Donnelly, asking for her assistance in informing high-level officials of special concessions in training that may have contributed to the death of Hultgreen.

    The opinion affirmed, “[T]his Court’s review of the letter sent from Lt. Burns to defendant Donnelly clearly reveals the letter as one that would not be immediately suspect or one that would provide “obvious reasons” to doubt its veracity; much to the contrary, the letter is replete with technical vocabulary, dates, scores, and details that appear to validate the experience and knowledge of the author.”

    Elaine Donnelly expressed great satisfaction that the Court ruled in her favor, just as she predicted it would all along. She noted that “In 1995 I learned that the information I had was ‘largely accurate,’ but top officials of the Navy had no intention of admitting there was a problem or doing anything about it. ..

    The Navy tried to destroy Burns for its failures (see the JAGMAN investigation into the shooting death of PO2 Mayo aboard the USS Mahan for what I’m hinting at). So the JOPA swung into action.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)


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