Patterico's Pontifications

7/28/2013

Patterico’s Rules for Talking to White People About Race, Or, Why I’m Not Interested in a “National Conversation” About Race

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:21 pm

So yesterday I saw this tweet from Slate‘s Will Saletan:

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I went to the linked article, by Jenée Desmond-Harris of TheRoot.com, a black online magazine run in part by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. with corporate ties to Slate and the Washington Post. It is a “nonexhaustive list of ground rules and reminders” for conducting our “national conversation on race.” Given the site where it appeared, you will probably not be surprised to learn that Ms. Desmond-Harris’s piece reads like a list of things white people had better not say to black people. Here are some examples:

1. Talking about race isn’t racist. Don’t say that. Vilifying people who discuss race and point out racism — making them the bad guys — is one of the ways racism is maintained. So is acting as if “blacks suffer from racism” and “whites suffer from reverse racism” are equally valid points of view.

. . . .

5. Black people shouldn’t have to fit your definition of what’s respectable to deserve equality or justice. It’s silly and unfounded to blame inequality caused by institutionalized racism on, say, sagging pants or rap music. If you want to celebrate black people who are educated and high-achieving and defy persistent stereotypes, great, but that can’t be a requirement for fair treatment. We got into trouble with this type of thinking when evidence that Trayvon Martin was a normal teenager messed up so many people’s impression of him as a sympathetic victim.

. . . .

7. Individual racism and systemic racism are two different things. We should care about all the structures that maintain racial inequality, not just individual actors. (This is why it’s not unreasonable to jump from George Zimmerman’s impression of Trayvon Martin to racial profiling by police.) That said, individual acts can provide strong reminders about larger attitudes and problems. Ahem, Paula Deen. Ahem.

Individual racism is irrelevant, apparently, unless we’re talking about a white racist, in which case it is super-meaningful and illustrative of whites’ attitudes in general. Got it. Al Sharpton’s racism? Just one guy. Paula Deen’s? That is representative of “larger attitudes”!

The other numbered points are more of the same: don’t cite blacks like Bill Cosby on race issues; don’t talk about black-on-black crime (with a link to a piece titled Exposing the Myth of Black-on-Black Crime); and so forth. They’re basically rules for white people on things not to say to blacks.

Desmond-Harris’s piece noted that Saletan had done his own piece on how to have a conversation on race. I looked at that piece and noted that, with a couple of perfunctory nods to even-handedness, it too was basically a compendium of rules for white people on how to talk to blacks about race (e.g. don’t freak out if someone calls you a racist because, hey, maybe you really are one!).

I wondered: are there any pieces on how to talk to white people about race? Or is that not an important topic? I decided to ask these two writers that question on Twitter:

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So her rules are for everyone? I decided to challenge that by giving a couple of examples that seemed one-sided to me. Here they are, with her responses:

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Turns out, she meant: the rules are for everyone, meaning: here are rules on how everyone should talk to blacks. They are rules for how whites should talk to blacks, and how blacks should talk to blacks. See? They’re for everyone!

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So I decided to refine my question. Instead of asking: are there rules for black people, I asked: are there rules for talking to whites about race?

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Just one problem with that:

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Ms. Desmond-Harris thinks she has to deal with this the same way whites do:

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But there’s one not-so-little difference:

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I then went out on a limb and decided to give Patterico’s Rule for Talking to White People About Race. Can we have a drumroll, please?

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I could add a couple of corollaries, like “don’t call us racists at the drop of a hat” and “act like you actually care what we think too.” But I’d be happy enough if we simply had the one rule: stop telling us what we can and can’t say.

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I thought I detected a little sarcasm in Desmond-Harris’s next comment:

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Actually, I had violated one of her rules. The end of Rule Number 2 contains this passage:

Please give up on the “But what if the races were reversed?” line of thinking. That type of analysis makes conversations simple, but it also makes them totally unhelpful.

Of course, that’s exactly what I was doing. I was saying: it’s fine for a black writer to say provocative things about race that might get them labeled a racist, but what if the races were reversed? For a white writer to say provocative things about race that might get them labeled a racist is often a career ender. That’s a true statement, but Ms. Desmond-Harris doesn’t want to hear true statements that violate her rules.

As a little side note, I found this amusing:

Screen Shot 2013-07-27 at 4.04.49 PM

I went to timwise.org and it turned out to be a white guy who says that white-on-black racism is a horrible thing — i.e. a white guy who agrees with Ms. Desmond-Harris. I suppose I could have given her a “conversation on race from a black perspective” and linked her to Larry Elder’s site.

Anyway, it seemed like the conversation was coming to a close, and I wanted to hit my main theme:

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Right on cue, I got an interloper in the conversation who summed it all up better than I ever could:

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And now, for the icing on the cake. Today, Ms. Desmond-Harris got upset at Don Lemon for making statements about problems that exist in black society. Apparently, Ms. Desmond-Harris doesn’t agree with Lemon, but rather than take him on regarding his specific points, she said this:

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It’s obviously a joke of sorts . . . but it’s born of a serious frustration she has with Lemon. Rather than debate him, her initial impulse — tongue in cheek as she may claim it to be — is to want to shut him up. I teased her about that:

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And then . . .

. . . and then, Jenée Desmond-Harris blocked me:

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THREE CHEERS FOR OUR NATIONAL CONVERSATION ON RACE!!!!!

284 Responses to “Patterico’s Rules for Talking to White People About Race, Or, Why I’m Not Interested in a “National Conversation” About Race”

  1. Nothing like a “conversation” with someone who doesn’t care in the slightest what you have to say.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. I suppose I could have given her a “conversation on race from a black perspective” and linked her to Larry Elder’s site.

    That’s the nub of the issue or core of the problem: That an unhealthy percentage (ie, over 90 percent) of black America is of the left instead of the center or right. I don’t think such an extreme imbalance is good for any community — white or black, Gentile or Jewish, straight or gay, male or female, etc) particularly one that has more than a few socio-economic problems.

    If a magic wand could be waved over the black populace and its prevailing ideology suddenly resembled that of a Larry Elder instead of that of, say, a Jesse Jackson, that would be the most startling (and likely very positive) transformation in modern human history.

    Mark (938403)

  3. I wonder why Saletan told “white people” to read Desmond-Harris’s article when she claims it was written “for everyone.”

    Patterico (9c670f)

  4. Similar attitudes existed among Soviets and Nazis in historical times. Why is it she has a problem with citing black on black crime rates (provided for by FBI and other government agencies)? Therein lies the problem.

    Wouldn’t care to wonder what she’d think about Thomas Sowell’s racial opinions.

    1.a Notice the similarities that blacks such as these tend to have with Soviet and Nazis. The GROUP, whatever that may be, takes precedence over the individual. She considers herself to be an expert on her group, and

    2. So, can we assume that she would be in favor of ending affirmative action, quotas, and other set asides and government policies that primarily benefit her group? Can we assume that she would like her group to receive equal treatment before the law but not additional benefits written in law as they currently law. Just equal treatment, but not extra special treatment?

    2. Also, like the Soviets, only those “approved” sources are allowed to be sited (e.g. a known white-racist such as Tim Wise) whenever publicly discussing race and those approved sources are to be explicitly approved of by such race experts as herself.

    3. Just like in the Soviet Union, any and all appeals to objective facts (even those rooted in a scientific/statistical worldview) are not to be recognized nor trusted. The source does not affirm their viewpoint, thus it is inadmissible to submit them in public conversation about race.

    This is modern day Soviet communism. And, this person is clearly a racist (in the sense that only her group should take prominent authority over and above other groups in the public realm when matters of public policy is being written and passed)

    If she is a self-appointed race authority, then she is a racist. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Kenneth Simmons (6f8eca)

  5. It reminds me of this one-sided conversation.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  6. And of course, if you say “well, if we have rules to follow when discussing your group, then the same goes for us. Blacks can’t discuss the white group,” well that of course is clearly racist and can’t be entered into the public debate.

    Same old same old. This is a younger more telegenic version of Sharpton and Jackson’s mantra: We can freely define our group, the sources who can discuss our group, AND we can obviously discuss your group, BUT…you have no right whatsoever to discuss our group unless we alllow it. Always on our terms.”

    This is Sovietism and she is clearly a racist.

    Kenneth Simmons (6f8eca)

  7. ‘Does not play nicely with others’.

    Anyone for a new definition of ‘Racist’?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  8. They dont want a conversation. They want a lecture.

    JD (f80562)

  9. Shorter Desmond-Harris:

    “Black people shouldn’t have to fit your definition of what’s respectable to deserve equality or justice……..unless they are like Bill Cosby and then they deserve to be ostracized”

    harkin (fc8e09)

  10. They want TO lecture, define the terms (their own) AND control government policies that directly benefit them. The last thing they want is a color neutral society with equal treatment but not additional special treatment for all.

    Interesting that Slate and DC Post would be funding a racial organization such as the Root. Wonder why?

    And to the point, what does she get out of this? Is she looking to be the younger version of Sharpton? Wanting to shake down and threaten with the race card anytime she doesnt particularly like how things go?

    She wants something for herself. Don’t ever trust those who claim otherwise and that they’re just doing it for best interests for all Americans.

    Kenneth Simmons (6f8eca)

  11. 5. Wha? Aren’t all wives like that?

    Really?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  12. She does set fire to strawmen, with a certain flair, no. 7, is a particular example.

    narciso (3fec35)

  13. unless they are like Bill Cosby

    That be old school. We be new school.

    nk (875f57)

  14. Basically, you cannot cite anyone that she does not agree with.

    JD (f80562)

  15. Considering the overall crime rate in the Twin Falls
    condo complex, the 402 calls to the local constabulary, clearly a violation of rule 7

    narciso (3fec35)

  16. I wonder what she would think about Don Lemon?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  17. I also enjoy white liberals instructing black conservatives on how to have a conversation about race, you know, because of their AUTHORITEH.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. So we just got done with a year where we all witnessed the black community (or at least a percentage about equal to that which voted for Obama) portray a man who

    1)Is part Hispanic and black
    2)Was in a business partnership with a black man
    3)Mentored black children
    4)Took a black date to his HS prom
    5)Defended a black man regarding an altercation with a white policeman
    6)voted for Obama

    as an unrepentant white racist murderer…..

    And they want to dictate how whites discuss race?

    harkin (fc8e09)

  19. The first rule of having a “meaningfull discossion about race” with Jenée Desmond-Harris: you do not talk about having a “meaningfull discossion about race” with Jenée Desmond-Harris.

    kaf (81bcc7)

  20. That’s likely doubleunplusgood, if not crimethink, to consider that.

    narciso (3fec35)

  21. If Trayvon passes for a normal teenager this country is beyond doomed.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  22. Insert obligatory Beldar rant about Twitter here — one that admires our host’s skills of logic and rhetoric, but which wryly observes that it took many, many “tweets” to accomplish because anything worthy of such talents is too complicated to be discussed in detail in 140 characters.

    Beldar (7626b1)

  23. ^^ 284 characters, and that’s as pithy as I typically can get without (as here) a follow-up.

    Beldar (7626b1)

  24. He was a vulgar, violent, illiterate loadie enamored with ill-gotten gains and no respect for others property, public or private.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  25. Fry Mumia!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. He was one kid. I don’t think he typifies a normal teenager of any place or any description.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  27. So we just got done with a year where we all witnessed the black community (or at least a percentage about equal to that which voted for Obama) portray a man who

    1)Is part Hispanic and black
    2)Was in a business partnership with a black man
    3)Mentored black children
    4)Took a black date to his HS prom
    5)Defended a black man regarding an altercation with a white policeman
    6)voted for Obama

    as an unrepentant white racist murderer…..

    And they want to dictate how whites discuss race?

    Yes, and this was just the media doing the redefining. Imagine if the government had officially gotten involved. Oh wait, they did. DOJ going down to FL to “assist” with the “protestors” and organization. Never mind.

    In the Soviet Union the state would redefine a person so as to make it easier to scapegoat, isolate, and then swiftly punish. Others have noted the similarities to Zimmerman’s trial and the ’30′s show trial under Stalin.

    Kenneth Simmons (6f8eca)

  28. There must be some rules. For example, if one wants a conversation with me, they must use English. Of course, this puts too many illiterates in a bind and thus makes me a racist for demanding a floor of literacy.

    Ed from SFV (962ab6)

  29. From the “Exposing the Myth..” article:

    “Black-on-black crime” is a frame that presupposes black criminality—that there’s something inherent to blackness which makes intra-group crime more prevalent and more deadly. But that’s nonsense,

    An old bud(he had Bimmer cycles and I had Motoguzzi-styled Honda) was a utility meter reader in Milwaukee for ages. He had to enter houses where flats were rented to reach the meters in the extensive core of Milwaukee.

    He recounts the conversation of a couple of young pre-studs on seeing a hot Kaw backed up to the curb. “When I grow up I’m a goin’ to steal me one a them”.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  30. Reading this post is difficult to follow. That’s because the rules are difficult to understand.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  31. Wow, Will Saletan is a white Swarthmore graduate. Clearly someone best equipped to give “white people” their marching orders.

    Jack Klompus (ddf2d4)

  32. Well then, Pat, you’re just a coward.

    Or at least that’s what Erice Holder (that paragon of upholding equal rights, justice and the rule of law) would say.

    Just like a liberal; when they start losing the argument, they either start yelling, calling one names or walk away.

    THAT’S how to have a conversation; walk away.

    Who really are the cowards?

    Jcw46 (6106c6)

  33. “Reading this post is difficult to follow. That’s because the rules are difficult to understand.”

    Here’s what I got:

    Blacks are not a monolith, understand? And don’t you dare refer to Bill Cosby….or Charles Barkley….or WTH Don Lemon too? OK OK we ARE a monolith and anyone going outside this groupthink monolith is disinvited to the national conversation.

    harkin (fc8e09)

  34. Individual racism and systemic racism are two different things. We should care about all the structures that maintain racial inequality, not just individual actors. (This is why it’s not unreasonable to jump from George Zimmerman’s impression of Trayvon Martin to racial profiling by police.)

    Of course this assumes that Zimmerman was motivated by race in the first place. The entire uproar over this incident as being race based, and much of the charges of racism generally, are based on this type of circular reasoning. Then Zimmerman’s (totally undocumented) racism, which is assumed to exist since we know whites are a bunch of racists, is illogically addiced as evidence for police racism based on her rule.

    Gerald A (130406)

  35. this post, and everyone participating in the comments is raycissssssssssssssss

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  36. I had a black colleague – a USC grad, now deceased – who used to tell me that I would not believe the sort of stuff that he (a conservative) had to endure when he expressed his opinions around other black folks. Most black folks are so far entrenched on the Democrat plantation that they wouldn’t recognize “the truth” if they tripped over it. And so the misery continues.

    Colonel Haiku (6c0854)

  37. So, trayvon was a “normal” teenager. “Normal” teenagers are on drugs, in fight clubs, rob things, beat up people, carry burglar tools and get suspended from school. Now that certainly sounds like a sympathetic character. What was I thinking? Without that clarification I thought he sounded like a pathetic character.

    Jim (823b10)

  38. Well it goes without saying, but how does excusing antisocial behavior, beneficial to anyone,

    narciso (3fec35)

  39. Mr. Patterico: Looks like you can say “I won” in this debate.

    PatAZ (fc79af)

  40. “I’m teh victim here
    so shut up, Patterico”
    sez DesmondHarris

    Colonel Haiku (6c0854)

  41. I guess she wouldn’t like Paul Kersey’s blog, then.
    http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.com/

    Jim (823b10)

  42. When I was young and strong I rode my bicycle summers thru Milwaukee from the lake where a bunch of us bon vivants had a crib to the suburbs and my job as a super in a factory.

    At a stop once, a pack of younger black kids passed me as the light change. One of them pulled close to rub his rear wheel against my front and flipped me on my right side(elementary physics).

    I don’t believe I was taught racism, but those kids learned it somewhere.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  43. they just wanted you to listen, gary…

    Colonel Haiku (6c0854)

  44. How odd that they are surprised that their version of a “conversation”, one in which they’ve no need to listen, isn’t accepted by us?

    SPQR (768505)

  45. What are the odds that once she figures out Patterico (it might take a while even though he does not do much to hide his “true self”) that his employer will be besieged with demands that some kind of job action be taken. How dare he question the collective wisdom of “the group”.

    gramps, the original (13e453)

  46. you know you’ve won the argument when the other person blocks you on twitter or facebook

    Peterk (c985d4)

  47. gramps, after the actions of the BK crime family, its pretty much old hat for Patterico.

    SPQR (768505)

  48. You guys have to re-learn the definitions of words, according to lefties.

    Just like ‘patriotism’ means ‘loving the country when a Democrat is President,’ ‘having a conversation’ means, ‘talking the way lefties tell you to.’

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  49. the first rule in having a honest conversation about race is that you can’t have an honest conversation about race…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  50. is illogically addiced adduced as evidence for police racism based on her rule.

    Gerald A (130406)

  51. Intellectual lightweights shouldn’t be tweeting rules for others anyway. Good riddance to the likes of her.

    dfbaskwill (c021f2)

  52. give us any chance we’ll take it give us any rule we’ll break it

    racism talk is for dumb stupid people who don’t understand how profoundly ass-jacked our pitiful little country’s economy is

    three guesses who’s gonna be hardest hit

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  53. Don’t a lot of liberals consider themselves to be rebels who push the envelope and break the rules ?

    So why are they telling us we have to color inside the lines ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  54. THIS post is a definite keeper for posterity’s sake. There may be no better example of the farce that is the call for “national conversations on race.”

    http://colossus.mu.nu/archives/342035.php

    Hube (4d0abc)

  55. (By “this post” above I mean Pat’s, of course!)

    Hube (4d0abc)

  56. Simple point; black people can use the “N” word like a promoun, but white people using it is “offensive”. Either it is or is not offensive. Keeps coming back to the “conversation” being black people essentially yelling at white people. Ask Victor David Hanson or John Derbyshire how that works when you bring up facts that night be viewed as inconvenient for the talking side of the conversation.

    Bugg (b32862)

  57. 54. “three guesses”

    While I didn’t hear the result, we here in MN, were in the running for all time low temps this weekend. Evidently, continental Europe is rather warm.

    Well, they all go on vacation in August, this time with no money where ever. Youth unemployment 60% in Spain, Italy’s government in tatters, Greece starving, Cyprus seeking to refloat the National Bank on 50% of deposits.

    The neighbors to the west doesn’t lock their door when they leave for the day, those on the east leave the garage wide open. Wonder how long that will last.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  58. @SP. I have no doubt as to Patterico surviving the move, I was just wondering how long it would take for the move to be made. Mind you, not “if”, but “when”.

    Pat’s a seasoned vet… he will be fine. It may give us a whole series of priceless posts to enjoy.

    gramps, the original (13e453)

  59. White is a racist color.
    Black is a entitled color.

    mg (31009b)

  60. gg – 47 degrees in my tent Saturday morning at reveille. Prolly cooler where you are.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. This is some of her wisdom, on other topics;

    http://naboulove.com/?p=282

    narciso (3fec35)

  62. You get a certain feeling from her;

    https://mulattodiaries.wordpress.com/tag/jenee-desmond-harris/

    narciso (3fec35)

  63. it’s just so awkward

    the first black president sucks ass

    the polite thing is to pretend not to notice

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  64. Mr. Feets – When did you all of a sudden start caring about being polite in all your staunchy glory?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. Mr. daley you have no idea about the inner struggles

    the sleepless nights

    the thousand-yard stare

    oh I care mister

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  66. 63. Where was that, roughly? Saw that sort of temp for ND but I don’t get much of civilization on my Weather map.

    Mostly moose and loons around here.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  67. gg – Dat was up dere by Rhinelander.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  68. 64. “Would most Type A, professional women have dated Barack”

    Good question in general, but in this case the woman was a ‘Jesse Hire’, unpleasant and inert. Guaranteed that their escort from Trinity was present only to chase off the Bottom Boi predators.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  69. Moose and loons, those are just the Mn. liberals, gary.

    mg (31009b)

  70. 70. Oooh, nice country. I remember bivouacking on the beach of lakes in that area as a kid. Tall white and Norway pines.

    Bass fried in butter for breakfast. You know how to live, I gather.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  71. Desmond-Harris is a typical hyphenated-person.

    Fabi (bacf59)

  72. It would have been wonderful if President Obama had met the expectations of so many people and if he had used his position and his unique DNA to help bring the nation together for the 21st century. Not very many men and no women have ever held this office and been given the opportunity he had to really accomplish something special and lasting as the chief executive. Like helping make us all feel more American and colorblind toward each other. It really could have been a historic presidency. It pisses me off that he was not up to the task, and that in fact he has made things both worse and seemingly more volatile on issues of race. In a sane world it should piss everybody off no matter what race we were born.

    elissa (980c8c)

  73. Howard ‘Yeargh’ Dean, or Kerry would have probably followed a similar path, ala John Lindsay, but would have encountered greater resistance.

    narciso (3fec35)

  74. 75. Bet more than a few Dhimmis are pissed at the bait and switch as well. They just take their paycheck and STFU.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  75. Reached in the vault beneath the First Church of Shuck and Jive, Rev. Sharpton said: Conversate we much!

    Fabi (bacf59)

  76. Rule One: You are white therefore you are racist.
    Rule Two: This conversation is concluded but if you have any questions, see rule one.

    Of course, this is just a paraphrase from Ebonics so the official version is a little more colorful…

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  77. Ah, elissa. Come join me on campus and listen to how race is described and leashed for political purposes, 24/7/365. Just like the 60s commercial with Madge, the President has been “soaking” in a culture of racially driven resentment and victimhood his entire life.

    Simon Jester (4df38d)

  78. i wanna hear more about this bass fried in butter

    that sounds very unitey

    everyone loves stuff fried in butter

    the united states of butter

    believe in the dream

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  79. By the way, most “beginning of the academic year” meetings are called “Campus Conversations.”

    But there is no conversation taking place, let alone an exchange of ideas. Platitudes and jockeying for position.

    I have often thought that this administration is just faculty politics writ large.

    Or small.

    Simon Jester (4df38d)

  80. it was all a big mistake is what we’re gonna find out Mr. Jester

    this whole “Obama” thing

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  81. To be serious, Mr. Feet, I think that we have—both parties—been pushing image over substance. The system isn’t set up for people to come up for office with genuine ideas.

    It could be that people are getting ready for genuine “change you can believe in.” We shall see if the Left jumps on the Hillary! train.

    Probably so, I’m guessing.

    Simon Jester (4df38d)

  82. It’s like that ‘exciting new film’ Elysium,

    narciso (3fec35)

  83. image over substance

    you betcha

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  84. ==Ah, elissa. Come join me on campus and listen to how race is described and leashed for political purposes, 24/7/365.==

    Mr. Jester, I appreciate the invitation but I do not need to go on campus to see it or understand it. The results of it are clearly obvious in many (not all) of those who graduate and then choose to enter the business world. Both their preparation and their expectations are different from entry level employees 20 years ago; often completely unreasonable and the demands are many. Teamwork is awkward and often difficult. Respect for the corporate culture is nil. Mentoring of promising junior associates by successful senior managers which used to be appreciated and sought after no longer is so much.

    We have regressed and it’s a shame for everybody concerned.

    elissa (980c8c)

  85. the corporate culture is indeed pretty gay if you’re talking about google yahoo microsoft time warner disney

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  86. 3M not so much

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  87. Simon – Platitudes made from a nice sourdough batter can be mighty tasty if cooked correctly and served with the right condiments.

    Head and shoulders above the cardboard gluten-free vegan nonsense served wif a little umbrella on top.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  88. 81. Bass filet easily, rolled with light hand in flour. Griddle iron over camp fire. Coffee the sole accompaniment.

    I’m usually neither the fisher nor the cook, but I eat with the worthy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  89. Here’s something I did: I sliced zucchini and yellow squash then coated them in olive oil. After that, I coated the vegetables in Parmesan and bread crumbs and roasted them in the oven at 400 degrees for about half an hour. The dish tasted pretty good.

    Butter was not involved. I like butter, though.

    I also like black-eyed peas and cornbread. More than almost anything.

    I denounce myself.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  90. The first rule of the honest conversation about race is you will not have an honest conversation about race.

    Bugg (b32862)

  91. i bookmarked about the squash

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  92. Ms. elissa, I hope I came across the right way. I was writing more about how sad I feel at what I see. My name doesn’t fit these days, in either of its meanings.

    I share your concerns.

    Simon Jester (4df38d)

  93. Overnight the dollar is tanking, especially against the yen.

    Fiscal dove Yellen seems to have the inside track on Benny’s Chair.

    Vigilantes not amused.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  94. China is allowing interest rates to rise. Look for municipal splatter.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  95. Barclay’s, along with Deutsche and Citi, the sickest big bank is begging its shareholders for a 7 billion pound advance.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  96. Your comment came across just fine, Simon. I just wanted to concentrate the point that there are huge societal costs and many blighted, stunted careers downstream from what is flowing out of the campuses these days. From your regular comments here I know you already know that.

    elissa (980c8c)

  97. have Janet Yellen and Newt Gingrich ever actually been seen in the same room together?

    we need to nail this down

    we need to nail this down now

    tonight

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  98. No, but Newt is smarter then Janet.

    narciso (3fec35)

  99. Is there a For Eyes near you, feets?

    elissa (980c8c)

  100. no?

    i do not know of what you speak

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  101. the googles say there’s only two in l.a. and they’re both very west sidey

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  102. did you see the janet pic on drudge?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  103. The dispensation is this: Black is socialist. A black who is not a socialist is not really black, and is a traitor to blacks. White is racist. A white who is not a racist is lying about his racism.

    David (b4d3c9)

  104. Look for municipal splatter.

    Speaking of which, the specter that unnerves and sickens me the most about the symbol of Detroit, Michigan, is that no matter how bad things can become and remain, a large portion of an electorate will be as foolish and irresponsible as ever before. Although the voters of Detroit are an extreme example of that dynamic, I see variations of mindless, idiotic voting patterns in a variety of communities and nations throughout the world. IOW, it will take a ton of bricks falling on people’s heads before they even think of crying “uncle,” much less yelling it. And when they do, it will be too late (eg, the lessons of Greece or Argentina, or Mexico, or Venezuela, or New York, or California, etc).

    Mark (938403)

  105. black is not socialist

    america is just ghetto

    done and done

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  106. They assist people who need help with their eyesights. There are other companies which can help you with that also if you prefer someone closer. Did you not notice that Janet wears a bowl cut and Newt does not?

    elissa (980c8c)

  107. 101. I think Newt has prettier eyes, if that helps.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  108. “Think as I think,” said a man,
    “Or you are abominably wicked;
    You are a toad.”

    And after I had thought of it,
    I said, “I will, then, be a toad.”

    - S. Crane

    The Political Hat (a42935)

  109. I knew an old woman, dead now. She told me a few things to live by:

    Be kind.

    Go to the library.

    Don’t judge. There is no difference in the people in this world.

    And if you fry things in Crisco, you can probably eat it.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  110. I think Newt has prettier eyes, if that helps.

    i will hold onto this, in the dark days ahead

    i will hold onto this tightly

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  111. You can’t complain about being treated differently when you want to be treated special.

    BradnSA (69f417)

  112. Rather than debate him, her initial impulse — tongue in cheek as she may claim it to be — is to want to shut him up.

    That’s the standard liberal rule for ALL “debate”. You’re supposed to listen to everything they say and treat it as holy writ.

    They will ignore everything you say (unless they can twist it into racism, at which point they’ll throw their perverted form back into your face, or, alternately, use it to shut you up by force).

    Funny how that works. Real real funny.

    Ha.

    Ha.

    .

    Ich Bin Ubn Gruber, Official Psychic Channeller for Scott Eric Kaufman (a2f645)

  113. I’ll be darned, seems to me that the national dialogue on race has the same rules as the national dialogue on guns.

    shut up while we the enlightened leftists call you names and then try and write laws to criminalize you for exorcizing a constitutional right, like free speech, or gun ownership…

    rumcrook™ (4a9bee)

  114. criminalize you for exorcizing a constitutional right

    seems to me the gun grabbers are the ones exorcising my rights…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  115. Can we get a gun exorcist over here?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  116. While this is a great Twitter conversation, I’ll just say that the only reason there are such grievous consequences to whites for talking about race in an open and well-meaning way is because, as a group, they insist on accepting the paradigm that they just can’t talk about racial topics forthrightly. If more whites showed intellectual courage here, then even more could do so.

    (In a similar way, the only reason the excesses of radical feminism go largely unanswered is because men as a group refuse to answer them.)

    So blaming others for this problem only goes so far. At some point, “Well, that’s something the author woould [sic] have to deal with. I’m called racist every day and I still write stuff,” is fundamentally correct. Yes, at present, the risk is much less for Jenée Desmond-Harris than it is for others. Patterico is entirely right about that and is to be commended for having this forthright conversation with her. However, there’s still really no other solution for it than to proceed. Waiting for others to give one permission to exercise one’s rights seems flawed in some way … or at least ineffective.

    Now I realize that seems trite if one is facing potential job loss, academic blackballing, or even the intimidation of a mob. However, blacks faced a similar situation, fought for their rights, and they truly are a minority. There’s nothing that says whites can’t show similar courage as black human-rights activists did and stand up for their rights for free speech and self-expression. In no way, shape, or form — however Stalinesque the current intellectual climate might be, and I agree that it is — can whites say they have it worse than blacks did several decades ago. To be fair.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  117. Speaking of intellectual courage, while I’m not a religious person, Jesus is reputed to have said many wise things, one of which was:

    Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    I.e., Conservatism, Patterico aside because he’s demonstrating the quality in abundance here, has a ways to go on the intellectual-courage front. Now perhaps conservatism’s ideas themselves are better — in several areas, I think they are for what it’s worth — but the conservative establishment doesn’t have a stalwart track-record of resolve in the face of opposition and shaming, now does it? And I would argue the reason for that comes down to, as it always does, that of the rank and file from which they get their cues.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  118. 22. Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/28/2013 @ 1:14 pm

    If Trayvon passes for a normal teenager this country is beyond doomed.

    The real problem is that they’ve prevented not just the jury, but the general public, from reading much about him. If a story is published somewhere, or once, the facts containe there are never repeated.

    Had it come up in the trial it probably would have, but the judge ruled nothing bad abi=out Trayvon could be mentioned unless George Zimmeman knew about that before the fight. Of course it is relevant, at least the question of whether he liked to fight, or got into fights, because, without that, you don’t have a predicate for him starting a fight (not that any fight he gets into, he started, or that people should dislike him and not judge the facts fairly) and the idea of his attacking George Zimmerman doesn’t make any sense.

    If any testimony had been introduced about his alleged good character, then all that would have been admissible in rebuttal, and so the prosecution was careful to make sure that nothing good was ever said about Trayvon at the trial!

    (except for what was implied by he fact his mother and his father and his brother loved him)

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  119. #119 & 120 are a load of dreck.

    and fatuous, rancid dreck at that.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  120. From the “Exposing the Myth..” article:

    “Black-on-black crime” is a frame that presupposes black criminality—that there’s something inherent to blackness which makes intra-group crime more prevalent and more deadly. But that’s nonsense,

    That “explanation” is nonsense, (provably nonsense because if it was true it would be true, to exactly the same degree, in all locations, and in all generations, including Africa, and before the Depression in the U.S.) and Jenée Desmond-Harris may not have a good explanation, but of course this is a fact which severely impacts the topic she is talking about.

    As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said:

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1745-everyone-is-entitled-to-his-own-opinion-but-not-to

    “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

    Not even black people talking about race.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  121. I have an explanation.

    It’s simply the combination of housing segregation, extended over a large geographoic area, combined with differential law enforcement and young mean having different kinds of friends.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  122. the first rule in having a honest conversation about race is that you can’t have an honest conversation about race…

    Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 7/28/2013 @ 2:58 pm

    Only if you buy into that paradigm.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  123. Here you go guys: The Social Justice League. http://i.imgur.com/AY5Bv.jpg

    When you boil it all down, it’s the pitiful demanding pity as a right.

    nk (875f57)

  124. Race baiting hate monger gets her panties in a wad over being exposed as a race baiting hate mongering dimwit.

    Meh. (Yawn.)

    John W. (665fcd)

  125. “So is acting as if “blacks suffer from racism” and “whites suffer from reverse racism” are equally valid points of view.”

    This is absolutely correct. Jim Crow was racism. It is gone. Affirmative action, studies programs, and set-asides are racism. They exist here and now. There is nothing “reverse” about it. Institutionalized racism oppresses whites, not blacks, and has for generations.

    ErisGuy (76f8a7)

  126. Well done, sir.

    Fourth Virginia (0d9767)

  127. Jenee Desmond-Harris–if you or any of your close associates are still following along this thread to see what is being said about race or being said about you, I humbly beg you to read this from Shelby Steele and consider it with an open mind and an open heart:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324448104578618681599902640.html

    elissa (1aa5bd)

  128. (provably nonsense because if it was true it would be true, to exactly the same degree, in all locations, and in all generations, including Africa, and before the Depression in the U.S.)

    The latter time frame is important to keep in mind because the excessive amount of dysfunction impacting a high percentage of black America goes hand-in-hand with the increasing liberalization of society in general, and the extreme liberalization — certainly culturally — of the black populace (ie, 90-plus percent) in particular.

    For example, the lurid, violent nature of rap music would have been deemed absurd and unthinkable in this society decades ago, including within black communities. Today? such socio-cultural traits are par for the course and don’t raise an eyebrow.

    Mark (938403)

  129. Steele’s essay is great. But the ethnocrats have already marginalized him. Yet we are supposed to take that Toure character seriously. Ace did a nice job on Toure’s racial profiling (“Peruvian-American”). But I am not hopeful.

    Simon Jester (9781d7)

  130. “the rules are for everyone, meaning: here are rules on how everyone should talk to blacks get married. They are rules for how whites straight people should talk to blacks marry the opposite sex, and how blacks gay people should talk to blacks marry the opposite sex. See? They’re for everyone!”

    Leviticus (b98400)

  131. The rules are for everyone, meaning: here are rules on how everyone should get married. They are rules for how straight people should marry the opposite sex, and how gay people should marry the opposite sex. See? They’re for everyone!

    Leviticus (b98400)

  132. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POVERTY_STRUGGLING_WHITES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-07-29-03-59-28
    Thank god we have reached parity in our society!

    #128: How many generations specifically?

    Too many butt hurt internet posters on both sides of the “national conversation on race”. Maybe one day they will understand that a conversation is not an activity where you simply speak past one another.

    vor2 (c4e996)

  133. To be black is to be gay.

    nk (875f57)

  134. I humbly beg you to read this from Shelby Steele

    His comments, in essence, about the civil-rights establishment being stuck in the past, and happily so, run parallel with a media that have become so disingenuous that something as basic to a news report, such as more than a vague description of a suspect in a crime, are routinely omitted from coverage.

    A news story linked at the drudgereport yesterday about a person in Baltimore being severely assaulted (his jaw broken in the confrontation) on the way home from work by a group of youth leaves it up to the reader to figure out a more detailed description of the suspects. Various people posting to the article’s message board have to play the MSM’s game by making sarcastic references to “Obama’s son if he had a son.”

    Mark (938403)

  135. This new university math is hard!
    Does 2 x stupid = idiot?

    Icy (f9c1e8)

  136. This is why new media is killing old. Before, editors decided what you would read and how they would present it. They decided who to feature and the authors were insulated. Everyone at cocktail parties praised the author and sheeple followed. With Twitter, authors are getting the other side. Now, people are facing different opinions and meeting people living very different lives. It’s difficult for some people, Harris included, to hear differing opinions. It’s much easier to block them out, ignorance is bliss and people like Harris are queens of the ignorant.

    Ratbeach (f5aad4)

  137. I come late to this thread and I didn’t read every line above, so I may wind up repeating a comment.
    The line about “don’t talk about black-on-black crime” is kind of silly but only kind-of. Most crime is neighborhood crime and most crime occurs in poor neighborhoods. Most neighborhoods are also self-selected by ethnicity or race. I’m sure there’s at least some legacy of legal or tacit segregation too but that’s a lot less important than it was.
    Most black-on-black crime, like most Asian-on-Asian crime, is a matter of selecting an available target, not selecting a black target or an Asian target. Black young men are shooting their rivals, who are generally other young black men, rather than choosing young black men as targets. The same is true in other neighborhoods; crime is only rarely based on race.
    To go by the ratio of black-on-white vs white-on-black crime, the first guess (and only a guess) would be that blacks seek out white targets more often than whites seek black targets. But perhaps the black-on-white crime has more to do with people who are white going where the drugs are and where the hookers are, so they wind up in neighborhoods that are largely black and become crime victims. Could some black offenders take extra fun in choosing a white victim? I imagine so, but then I imagine at least a few white offenders take an extra charge from choosing a minority victim.
    It’s also possible that some offenders who are black see white potential victims as easy marks or as deserving to be victims and that would be a form of racism.
    Probably most of the black over-representation in crime has to do with black over-represenation in poverty. Anti-poverty programs seem to have done more to damage families that are poor than to reduce poverty. I don’t have the answer but I know it isn’t accepting that black people have some right to be poor, to be irresponsible, or to commit crimes — no more than white people have such rights.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  138. The problem is that whenever a white person says something interesting and provocative (and true) about race, and they’re instantly called a racist, they flinch, apologize and STFU. We have to bash through that wall. We have to just keep hitting and hitting, taking the beating and keep coming. Take a page from their book — relentlessness. This is a brute war. We make the mistake thinking it’s about civil discourse.

    rrpjr (e18637)

  139. I’ve decided to wash my hands of black people. Oh, I’ll be polite and civil like I would with any other citizen. But going out of my way to help or spend time worrying about blacks? My new program is black avoidance whenever possible. I’m done. Just keep doing what you’re doing, black folks. Killing each other and doing things that keep you at the bottom of the ladder. Good luck.

    Funeral Guy (c4b0a5)

  140. The first black President sucks ass…

    My theory is that Satan let his esteemed long-term guests Bull Conner, George Wallace and James Earl Ray review a bunch of resumes and select who would be the first black President of the United States.

    Ray Van Dune (63e9fe)

  141. Racists

    JD (b63a52)

  142. “a compendium of rules for white people on how to talk to blacks about race (e.g. don’t freak out if someone calls you a racist because, hey, maybe you really are one!)”

    Rules for white liberals: Don’t freak out if someone calls you a liberal fascist, because maybe you really are one.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  143. Rules for blacks: Don’t freak out if someone calls you a racist, because there is much more racism among black Americans than among whites, and it’s open proud racism that suffers no social stigma from other blacks.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  144. Geoff….isn’t your post above just a reminder that blacks can only get themselves out of the problems you listed? That gubmint, me (white America), politicians (liberal and pretend repubs) are only a symptom of the problem, and that blacks have to take their own bull by the horns?

    reff (4dcda2)

  145. Binders full of raaaaacists.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. Social Justice demands that no importance be placed upon the feelings of White People, and that they must conform to the standards as expounded by their betters, the Progressives and other acolytes of The Institute for Social Research, whose only goal is the equality of all mankind.

    In other news, beachfront property is available now in eastern Colorado.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  147. 140. Comment by MT Geoff (a67ef4) — 7/29/2013 @ 8:15 am

    Most crime is neighborhood crime and most crime occurs in poor neighborhoods.

    The first part of your sentence is correct, the second is not. Only in certain kinds of “poor” neighborhoods.

    Most crime occurs because a person’s friends do it. For many years laws were not enforced or were enforced less, in black neighborhoods, going back even to the 1930s and 1940s. (the opposite of what the black racists say by the way

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  148. The “racial problems” are really Democrat problems, and they have been since the 1860s.

    I think people on the left simply don’t understand that rank poverty is the natural condition of man, which is only alleviated through heroic individual efforts, and all their nonsense (racial and otherwise) largely flows from that lack of misunderstanding.

    Try pointing out that blacks outside the U.S. are on average much, much poorer than blacks here and see how long anyone on the left wants to continue talking about The Terrible Racism of America ™.

    Obviously slavery (a Democrat policy) and Jim Crow (a Democrat policy) and the KKK (a Democrat terrorist group) were all terrible things, but almost no one wants to acknowledge that after those things were finally ended, blacks (like all races) gained the benefits of (predominantly white) American institutions that made them the richest, freest blacks in the world despite the institutional shortcomings of their race (which is why so few blacks returned to Africa). The left never thanks whites for building those institutions, or for the hundreds of thousands who died fighting to end black slavery, they just see them as evildoers who existed only to repress other races, when in truth they were creating unprecedented gains in living standards for everyone.

    TallDave (538152)

  149. This Obama person is more of a divider than a uniter.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  150. What Harris wants is the power to silence people.

    Jack (a1d158)

  151. “… when in truth they were creating unprecedented gains in living standards for everyone.”

    Well that, and killing millions in the trans-Atlantic crossing.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  152. …and those sharks are still circling.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  153. “…poverty is the natural condition of man…”

    “Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
    This is known as “bad luck.”

    Trusters have very little exposure to “the natural condition”.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  154. I was recently banned from Twitchy.
    For dropping the N-word on a guy who was claiming Trayvon Martin attacked the gun toting stalker out of self defence.

    It was in context. What can I say?

    In my defence, there were 25 up votes versus none against on my offensive comment.

    anywho The Twitchy person who banned me went back through the archive and eraced every comment I’d ever made at Twitchy. Well at least the last weeks worth. I didn’t bother to look any further.

    A punishment in far disproportion to my thought crime.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  155. Thought Crimes can never be punished too lightly.

    BTW, anti-state thoughts will get you an IRS audit.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  156. 154. “… when in truth they were creating unprecedented gains in living standards for everyone.”

    Well that, and killing millions in the trans-Atlantic crossing.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/29/2013 @ 1:46 pm

    Why does this myth that millions of Africans were killed crossing the Atlantic during the slave trade persist? It’s nonsensical.

    The idea that the crews of slave ships slaughtered millions of slaves, after already paying African slavers at the coastal ports for those slaves, through neglect or sadistic violence is about as rational as claiming farmers routinely torch half their grain in the field after wasting money on seed, pesticides, irrigation water, diesel, and farm labor to get it the point it could be harvested. Just for s***s and giggles.

    I understand while economically illiterate race hucksters like Barack Obama spew that nonsense. I just don’t understand why anyone who ever holds out hope of being taken seriously as a sane individual would buy it. Or repeat it.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  157. “Well that, and killing millions in the trans-Atlantic crossing.”

    Former Conservative – How many African slaves shipped across the Atlantic do you believe were destined for the U.S. versus elsewhere?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  158. Raise your hand if you want to have a national conversation about the myths of the Atlantic slave trade.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  159. “Millions” of Africans were “killed” in the transit across the Atlantic en route to the new world ?

    What ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  160. I didn’t say it was just a U.S. problem. But it was primarily a race relations problem.

    And yes, I know black people took slaves, Arabs took slaves, etc. None of that changes the fact that the current African-Americans descended from that era didn’t ask to be in North America.

    Anyway I’m headed to the gym. Interesting questions and of course the numbers who died during the crossing over four centuries are estimates.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  161. Race relations would be much improved if we pointed out that no descendent of anyone who was here before the Civil War was asked if they wanted to be in North America. Did some Scandinavian farmer ponder the question of whether or not the third or fourth generation of descendants who followed him would appreciate the fact he uprooted the family and moved it to Minnesota?

    But that’s not the point. Each descendent gets to answer that question on their own by staying in the US. It’s not hard. Dennis Rodman’s father, Philander Rodman, answered that question by living in the Philippines for over 40 years.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8179843/dennis-rodman-meets-father-philippines

    It’s a big world. There are lots of places to go. At least we’re not Cuba, where a lot of those slave ships were headed. And the Castros won’t let their descendants leave.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  162. “Millions” were “killed” in transit is an estimate ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  163. “… killing millions in the trans-Atlantic crossing.”

    Would be like GM sending a million Cadillac’s to the crusher when they roll off the line. One does not destroy one’s “product” before it’s sold. And as Steve57 said, any person here now is free to leave at any time. Stay, go, but either way quit complaining.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  164. Yes, it’s an estimate. A very authoritative estimate by black grievance mongers in ethnic studies departments based upon their informed estimate that the vast majority of crews and ship owners engaged in the slave trade didn’t expect or even want to make money.

    They in fact enjoyed losing money by dumping the cargo overboard or whatever and then going deeper into the hole by by heading back to pay for another load. Then repeat the process.

    I think its an established fact that you have to major in gender or ethic studies to avoid taking any class that might threaten your illusions you’re talking about “business model” that could last six months let alone centuries.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  165. “And yes, I know black people took slaves, Arabs took slaves, etc.”

    Former Conservative – Through the Atlantic Crossing, in the process killing millions? Seriously?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  166. 166. …Would be like GM sending a million Cadillac’s to the crusher when they roll off the line. One does not destroy one’s “product” before it’s sold…

    Comment by Hoagie (3259ab) — 7/29/2013 @ 3:22 pm

    I probably should caveat my previous statement. Obviously you don’t have to major in ethnic or gender studies to believe this crap given the popularity of Keynesian economic theory.

    A central tenet of which is that you can generate wealth by squandering and destroying wealth. That you can get rich by building machines like, if not Cadillacs (although I believe some of the armored vehicles were), airplanes and ships and then just dumping them into the ocean.

    For further illustration of this form of insanity, see Paul Krugman’s theory about how WWII pulled the US out of the depression.

    Or, hell, just look at Detroit.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  167. 168. “And yes, I know black people took slaves, Arabs took slaves, etc.”

    Former Conservative – Through the Atlantic Crossing, in the process killing millions? Seriously?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/29/2013 @ 3:33 pm

    I’m guessing that the devotees of this “African slave holocaust” theory are not only weak on the subject of economics, but geography isn’t one of their strengths either.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  168. Steve57 – It’s not exactly a shock to discover fapper Former Conservative is a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  169. R.J. Rummel calculated 17 million dead in 400 years of the African slave trade. But the range of estimates is as low as 4 million and as high as 65 million. (Remember that the bulk of the slave trade terminated in South America and Brazilian plantations had a high rate of death in addition to the large fraction of losses in transit of the Atlantic).

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1A.GIF
    lines 39 through 92

    SPQR (768505)

  170. It makes sense, SPQR. Look at the way the Nazis treated their slave labor, and I don’t mean in the death camps, but in actual projects vital to the Reich. If replacing them is cheaper than feeding them ….

    nk (875f57)

  171. I try not to break the rules but merely to test their elasticity. –Bill Veeck

    elissa (399805)

  172. Unfortunately in this day and age of agenda driven statistics, policy driven “facts” and victim driven economics ( as Steve57 pointed out with Krugman ), I wouldn’t believe any number put forward by any “expert” alive.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  173. The Nazi’s treated their slave labor exactly they way they wanted: Like sub-humans on their way to execution. Slaves in the old days were property and bread new slaves free of charge.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  174. New World slave owners did not consider their slaves subhuman? And preferred to having them spend ten to twelve years raising their children instead of working as hard as they could? You’re making assumptions too.

    nk (875f57)

  175. The cost of labor…..
    An interesting anecdote from ? about the value of slaves to slave-holders in the South.
    Cotton was baled and then transported to the nearest river for shipment to either a Gulf or Atlantic port.
    In this one instance, the nearest and easiest access to the river was at some bluffs with level riverbank below.
    The bales were pushed over the edge of the bluff, and to keep from being ruined by immersion in the river, men were at the bluff bottom to “catch” them. However, a bale of cotton was quite heavy, and a miscalculation could result in serious injury or death.
    Because slaves had value in the market, they were not used as “catchers”, but European immigrants (German or Irish, usually) were hired as day-laborers for this dangerous job. Their only cost was their wages and a meal, and if they were hurt or killed, too bad.
    Just another example of the cruelty towards slaves demonstrated by those evil plantation owners.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  176. Sorry nk, but by todays standard perhaps slaves were considered subhuman (3/5 of a white? ) but they were by no means marked for extermination like the Nazi’s were. Slaves had value because slaves created value for the master. And it would take one slave girl to watch over ten children while the parents worked the fields. Pretty good ROI.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  177. 17 million? Rather a high figure given that most scholars estimate that between 11-12 million Africans in total were transported across the Atlantic during the centuries of the slave trade.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  178. It was bad enough, although I think the seventy some years of Jim Crowe, after the Civil War, probably had a more corrosive effect, in discouraging confidence in the political system, without it, would a Jackson, a Sharpton, an Obama
    have much credibility,

    narciso (3fec35)

  179. It is pretty high Steve57 considering today African descendants are about 13% of population which is about what, 38 million. That would mean almost half as many died in 400 years of slave trade as are alive today after 150 years of freedom. The numbers don’t work for me.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  180. The back cover of the book “Black Cargoes: A History of the Atlantic Slave Trade” by Daniel P Mannix in Collaboration with Malcolm Cowley (Viking Press 1962, 1965 paperback edition) claims that 30 to 40 million lost their lives (including white sailors) but it says on page 151 that the British Privy Council that the mortality for Negroes in the Midle Passage was 12.5% or 1/8.

    30 million deaths would give you a total number of slaves who started the voyage of 240 million, which is more than the population of all of Africa (which was around 100 million through the period 1650 to 1850.) I suppose by deaths he also includes deaths after arriving in America, and in places there may ahve been a very high death rate.

    Anyway, it is estimated (on the Internet) that approximately 2% of the population of Africa was sent away as slaves every year.

    This would mean 2 million a year. If this went on for 200 years (it went on longer but the heavy trade went on less) that would amount to 400 million people, of which 50 million should have died, or 250,000 a year.

    There was actually a higher death rate of white seamen than of slaves during the second half of the 18th century, although of course you have to bear in mind that the seamen were on board for far longer, taking 3 legs of the triangular voyage.

    The captured Africans did not spend enough time on board to come down with scurvy, and they were more resistant to deadly African diseases – and they were worth money to the captain – 4% of the selling price in the sugar islands, whereas the seamen cost him money as he might owe a seaman who landed back in Liverpool as much as a year’s wages. Other times the captain would leave men behind on shore in the West Indies. In Africa the captains paid high rewards to the natives for bringing back runaway seamen, the amount later deducted from their wages.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  181. 178. The cost of labor…..
    An interesting anecdote from ? about the value of slaves to slave-holders in the South.
    Cotton was baled and then transported to the nearest river for shipment to either a Gulf or Atlantic port.
    In this one instance, the nearest and easiest access to the river was at some bluffs with level riverbank below.
    The bales were pushed over the edge of the bluff, and to keep from being ruined by immersion in the river, men were at the bluff bottom to “catch” them. However, a bale of cotton was quite heavy, and a miscalculation could result in serious injury or death.
    Because slaves had value in the market, they were not used as “catchers”, but European immigrants (German or Irish, usually) were hired as day-laborers for this dangerous job. Their only cost was their wages and a meal, and if they were hurt or killed, too bad.
    Just another example of the cruelty towards slaves demonstrated by those evil plantation owners.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:18 pm

    It would have been worth more to the ship owners to let their sailors die and keep the slaves alive.

    Each slave delivered alive would have turned a few hundred dollars profit when they were sold.

    On the other hand if a sailor died, that was just one less guy who was going to get paid.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  182. Say, Hoagie, you are aware that in the debate over the census, the South wanted slaves counted as whole persons, but it was the North that compromised on the 3/5 number after originally demanding that they not be counted at all?

    The Left can’t even keep the narrative straight.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  183. Maybe the Lancet has an estimate?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  184. And that Steve57 and Sammy Finkelman is the economic reason to be anti slavery. Slavery undervalued the labor of free men.

    That’s one of the economic reasons Not The Moral Reasons. ( before leftists start screeching at me ).

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  185. The BBC has the figure at “over a million.” This is from the “middle passage” of the Atlantic voyage.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6445941.stm

    Hube (4d0abc)

  186. Changing the direction of the subject, the 3/5ths was at the Northern states’ insistence to keep the Southern representaion low in forming Congressional districts. If slaves had been counted as full persons, the South would have dominated the Union in the House and in the Electoral College.

    nk (875f57)

  187. I was award of that askeptic, but it had slid to the back of my tiny brain. Thanks for reminding me.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  188. Cross-posted with askeptic.

    nk (875f57)

  189. Shoulda been “aware” not award.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  190. Most of the slaves went to South America or the West Indies. Only about 1/6 of the slaves brought to Virginia between 1710 and 1769 came via the West Indies (7,046 vs 45,088 directly from Africa anf 370 from other North American colonies)

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  191. 184. The back cover of the book “Black Cargoes: A History of the Atlantic Slave Trade” by Daniel P Mannix in Collaboration with Malcolm Cowley (Viking Press 1962, 1965 paperback edition) claims that 30 to 40 million lost their lives (including white sailors) but it says on page 151 that the British Privy Council that the mortality for Negroes in the Midle Passage was 12.5% or 1/8…

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:30 pm

    I have a book by Dan Mannix. It’s about Gladiators. I think this review of the book on Amazon captures my take on the works of Dan Mannix perfectly:

    http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0743413032

    This book is a reprint of “Those About to Die,” which was published back in the late 50′s, when Mannix was in his heyday as a writer. I came to know Daniel P. Mannix through his many articles for the 50′s publication “True: The Man’s Magazine.” He was a competent writer on many subjects, and his stories were always entertaining. “The Way of the Gladiator” is nothing if it is not entertaining. But it is NOT a piece of sober history.

    The book is not so much historical fiction as it is fictionalized history. Historical fiction is a make believe story told against the backdrop of historical events. Mannix takes historical events and relates them in “documentary” fashion, but unabashedly invents details and descriptions which, if they are accurate, are accurate only by accident.

    If you understand from the outset what you are dealing with, “The Way of the Gladiator” can be great reading. If you’re looking for a well researched, scholarly study of gladiators, check out Michael Grant’s “Gladiators.”

    And I like Dan Mannix. I also like Peter Hathaway Capstick. I’d go camping and drink beer with them and listen to their stories around the fire, but it’ll be a long time before I try to make the case I believe either of them.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  192. Graves, too, in the Claudius books. But he really caught on.

    nk (875f57)

  193. Well, I don’t know where all these “experts” come up with these figures. We all know there were no computers in 1769 or 1859 and no central data collection etcetera. I’m sure records were scattered, destroyed or even hidden so I really believe we don’t come close to accuracy. So it’s all conjecture and we know where that leads. It leads to people playing the agenda game.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  194. I think 2 million Africans a year taken on board ship for transportation to the Americas to be sold as slaves has to be too high.

    From 1575 to 1591 52,000 slaves were sent from Angola to Brazil, now that’s some 3,000 a year. It was 5,000 a year by 1591. In 1617 it was 28,000 from Angola and the Congo. From 1680 to 1700 300,000 slaves were shipped in English vessels, or 15,000 a year. 900,000 maybe from all parts of Guinea to all parts of the New World in the 16th century, and about 2,750,000 or 27,500 a year for the 17th century. I don;t think we’re coming up with 2 million a year. Divide by 25 or 50. Deaths therefore around 1 million or less and perhaps 8 million transported.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  195. Always trust numbers from Sammy.

    nk (875f57)

  196. you know where he gets those numbers, right?

    i only trust them to smell

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  197. Sammy, I’m surprised to find myself on the same sheet of music as you.

    I just don’t see how the casualty figures the grievance mongers throw about are possible.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that shipping slaves from Africa to the Western Hemisphere had to be seasonal. Square riggers are designed to run with the wind. Fore-and-aft rigged ships can sail upwind, but there’s a reason why fore-and-aft rigged ships weren’t used to conduct transoceanic trade. They weren’t cost effective to operate.

    Coastal traders, yes. Fishing fleets, yes. But if you wanted to operate at a profit while shipping stuff across oceans your used square-rigged ships. Which meant when you made your money depended very much on which way the wind was blowing.

    I think people these days don’t understand how that would limit how many voyages a sailing ship could make in a year. Just amount of time sailing from one latitude to another to find the prevailing trade wind (those winds were called that for a reason) to catch a breeze taking you to where you could sell your cargo would eat into your transit time considerably.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  198. narciso – If the ideas Anthea pulls out of her tender tenured butt can’t withstand criticism, perhaps she should take the hint and stop making a public fool of herself.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  199. Sorry nk, but by todays standard perhaps slaves were considered subhuman (3/5 of a white? ) but they were by no means marked for extermination like the Nazi’s were.

    Yeah, but the difference is what? 12 years of the Holocaust in earnest? Vs. 247 years of the slave trade to just North America alone never mind South, Central, and the Caribbean.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  200. I just don’t see how the casualty figures the grievance mongers throw about are possible.

    Grievance mongers?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  201. I know a lot of you you don’t care, but this whole readily-apparent lack of empathy thing really does cost you votes and support come election day.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  202. Thanks for your concern, Christoph.

    JD (b63a52)

  203. If you have empathy, if your heart is in the right place, if you feel the proper way, you can just make up numbers. The narrative is more important. And, circumcision is a reich wing position.

    JD (b63a52)

  204. This really is the top ten political blogs on the web. Great Job! Very excellent post.

    G (bbda88)

  205. And, circumcision is a reich wing position.

    No, circumcision is one of the evils the Nazis weren’t fanatical about. Germany is one of the most ethical societies on Earth when it comes to that.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  206. Yes, right up there with vegetarianism.

    narciso (3fec35)

  207. Yes, right up there with vegetarianism.

    Is that social commentary on metzitzah b’peh?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  208. What was the most valuable thing you could have in Nazi Germany? A foreskin.

    nk (875f57)

  209. Christoph – your sarcasm meter is off. You previously attributed circumcision as a conservative philosophical underpinning.

    JD (2ad32a)

  210. The way the Nazis saw it, I think, was that if you didn’t have a foreskin they didn’t want the rest of you around either.

    nk (875f57)

  211. There is a statement in the book, from Thomas Fowell Buxton, who succeeded William Wilberforce as the anti-slavery spokesman in the British Parliament that (as of 1840) the slave trade had not been extinguished, and the numbers exported were twice that of 1897, and mortality had risen from 17?% to 25%

    There is a whole history of the abolition of the slave trade and slavery. It had its ups and downs and places it was effective immediately and places where it was not. Brazil and Cuba becam destinations. In the years after the War of 1812 about 10,000 to 20,000 were smuggled into the United States.

    The real end of it came about the time of the Civil War, with the possible exception of some ships that ma have come to Brazil or Cuba as late as the 1880s.

    The book says a forced migration of 15 million and claims twice as many died in slave raids etc.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  212. Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/29/2013 @ 6:56 pm

    If you have empathy, if your heart is in the right place, if you feel the proper way, you can just make up numbers.

    The estimates of the numbers of Indians living in the North American continent in 1492 are also wild.

    Many may have died, of course, in unrecorded smallpox epidemics, but still all this is by people with no sense of what numbers mean.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  213. The more I read this schlep “former conservative”‘s posts the more enthused I am about his defection to neo-wankerism.

    Colonel Haiku (634e8e)

  214. So am I supposed to feel communal white guilt for all eternity about evil slave captors and traders (they of course were both black and white) that I and none of my people had anything whatsoever to do with? What about pride in the three male relatives of mine who helped free the American slaves by serving in the union army? I am no more responsible for the slave trade than I am for the aforementioned boys in blue.

    While we’re at it, tell me again how our president with his mid 20th century communist african daddy and Harvard education was harmed by the “legacy of slavery”.

    elissa (399805)

  215. That’s your white privilege talking, Elissa

    JD (2ad32a)

  216. Comment by Steve57 (a65996) — 7/29/2013 @ 5:15 pm

    I think people these days don’t understand how that would limit how many voyages a sailing ship could make in a year.

    And how many ships do they think there were? And they had to deal also with privateers. The crews were often the worst sailors and often tricked into signing on.

    One way of looking at this is by comparing the population of Africa to the descendants in the Western hemisphere. Now mortality was very high in some colonies, and maybe for along time slaves were not kept in conditions where they could have children – on the other hand, after 1865 mortality was probably higher here than in Africa.And there were rebellions by the prisoners, almost always put down.,

    You did have sometimes a slave buying fever, when the numbers would go up for a while. south Carolina 1803-1807 before it became illegal. Some places after it became illegal. Brazul signed a treaty (with Britain) prohibiting the importation of slaves after 1829 The British Foreign Office estimated about 37,000 were imported the year after the treaty was signed (I think before it took effect) In 1830 the British counsel at Rio estimated 100,000 had been landed in a period of 18 months, 50,000 after January 1, 1830.

    Just amount of time sailing from one latitude to another to find the prevailing trade wind (those winds were called that for a reason) to catch a breeze taking you to where you could sell your cargo would eat into your transit time considerably.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  217. Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/29/2013 @ 7:09 pm

    The way the Nazis saw it, I think, was that if you didn’t have a foreskin they didn’t want the rest of you around either.

    You might think so, but that was more in Poland. It was not conclusive proof to the Nazis.. They needed a confession, or records, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  218. The one-fourth rule, huh? People who were uncircumscribed and attending the Lutheran church down the street could still find themselves on a train to Dachau. I was being sarcastic, but when it comes to Nazis no evil can be overstated.

    nk (875f57)

  219. *uncircumcised*

    nk (875f57)

  220. Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 7/29/2013 @ 5:02 pm

    you know where he gets those numbers, right?

    They are specifics in the 1962 book “Black Cargoes” which also, true, has this big grand total, but it doesn’t show any calculation to reach it.

    The book actually has twice dying in “slave raids, coffles, and barracoons as were taken aboard ship! (page 287) A coffle is a chain of prisoners – the word is Arabic and a barracoon is a house to hold captured people for sale to ships. That’s 2/3 dying before they reach a ship. On ships the mortality can’t be higher than 25% and a long term average of no more than 15% is better.

    I feel that somehow the author got committed to the figure of 30 to 40 million (maybe from somebody’s bad African population statistical calculations?) but otherwise the book looks pretty accurate. He puts the death toll highest where he has no information. But the one thing you know from he whole context is that it could not have been this way, or else his source3s would have remarked on it.

    I wouldn’t say 15 million transported either. For starters, I’d leave it at 8 million, over the course of 350 years, concentrated in a much smaller period of time.

    It’s big enough. The death toll is high enough. It has to mesh with other facts.

    Sammy Finkelman (fa9d06)

  221. I know a lot of you you don’t care, but this whole readily-apparent lack of empathy thing really does cost you votes and support come election day.

    Your sentiments might have made sense decades ago, in the hazy past. But not today. Not in today’s era of cheap, disingenuous tolerance and compassion for compassion’s sake.

    BTW, I recall in my youth listening to a person (in my family) who grew up during WWII. He would excoriate the left for racism and discrimination, and I was puzzled by his opinion. At that time I thought he probably was laying it on too thick and likely transposing the left with the right.

    It was only quite recently (and this is a sad reflection of the rather poor education in US history I received in school) that I finally learned about Jim Crow laws being implemented by liberal Woodrow Wilson, about Franklin Roosevelt and his blatantly anti-Jewish attitudes (ie, blaming Jews for the Hitlerian mindset sweeping over 1930s Germany), his anti-Asian, anti-miscegenation racism, and the gut-wrenching bigotry of FDR’s VP, Harry Truman, whose speech and writings behind closed doors would make a Klanner blush.

    Mark (938403)

  222. Former Conservative said “….Vs. 247 years of the slave trade to just North America alone….”

    You do realize the slave trade was not invented just for America, right? There was slave trade back as far as man existed and on a continuous basis. And for thousands of years longer than 247 years or so.

    “…. but this whole readily-apparent lack of empathy thing really does cost you votes…”

    I’m sorry to hear that but what you perceive as a lack of empathy is really just us being really, really tired of being held accountable for something we took no part in and had no control over. That means we’re not responsible and are sick of being told we’re racists for stuff from 150 years ago. It’s the constant din of the race-baiters showing us that there will never be enough, never be an end and we will never be “empathetic” enough. I’m not black, should I apologize? Okay, I’m sorry. If it helps, my wife is Korean.

    It’s hard to be empathetic when you’re constantly reminded and brow-beaten about stuff you didn’t do, had no part in and cannot control. I’ve done enough crappy shit in my life without being beat up on because of something that I didn’t do that long ago.

    As I said, if things are so intolerable here, leave. Who’s enslaving you now? Go anywhere you want but if you’re gonna stay then STFU already. I know if I was unhappy here I’d be at our house in Bermuda as a primary residence. Be gone in a heartbeat.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  223. Your sentiments might have made sense decades ago, in the hazy past. But not today. Not in today’s era of cheap, disingenuous tolerance and compassion for compassion’s sake.

    It’s slavery. It was a big deal.

    cheap, disingenuous

    Be deep, genuous.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  224. compassion for compassion’s sake

    Qu’elle horreur.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  225. From the Greek γεναιος meaning brave. Brave used to be a synomym for generous in American English too.

    nk (875f57)

  226. So am I supposed to feel communal white guilt for all eternity about evil slave captors and traders (they of course were both black and white) that I and none of my people had anything whatsoever to do with?

    Your comment makes me think of a fascinating series produced by PBS several years ago about modern-day people transported back to the past. People who volunteered to live almost exactly like earlier generations did, misery, hardships and all. It was sort of a sophisticated version of a reality TV show.

    One of the series dealt with people who were made to survive in a re-created pre-colonial America. It was eye-opening and grueling, and I think even Oprah Winfrey made a surprise appearance in one of the episodes (her overriding impression was how filthy or unclean all the show’s volunteers were).

    I can never forget one black person who was an early participant in the series. He apparently become quite appalled at how hardened and manipulative his emotions were growing after dealing with several days (or a few weeks) of a hand-to-mouth existence. So much so that he found himself warming up to the idea of using human machinery (ie, slaves) to lighten his load. That reaction shook him up so much that he felt he had no choice but to leave the program.

    Call that a version of “limousine liberalism” transported to a hypothetical distant past.

    Mark (938403)

  227. It’s slavery. It was a big deal.

    Yes, but the definition of it being a “big deal” is cheapened when one’s sentiments are bogged down by moral equivalence, misplaced context, upside-down sympathies, and a flighty type of guilt conscience.

    Mark (938403)

  228. 205. I know a lot of you you don’t care, but this whole readily-apparent lack of empathy thing really does cost you votes and support come election day.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/29/2013 @ 6:48 pm

    It isn’t that I don’t care. I just couldn’t face my children’s children, nieces, and nephews, and tell them I kept a bunch of lies for the short term gain of winning a couple of elections.

    When “emphathy” is defined as agreeing to go along with complete bull****, count me out.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  229. Actually, I guess that means I do care.

    What you have to explain, Former Conservative, is why you care so little you’ll go along with the lie.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  230. It’s slavery. It was a big deal.

    Did someone argue that slavery was not a big deal? Good Allah.

    JD (2ad32a)

  231. I really, really hate Nazis. I also really, really hate the new generation of anti-Semites.

    There are words for the modern Nazi. What is it? it’s on the tip of my tongue.

    Oh yeah: The American Left.

    Sure, sure, Godwin’s law and all that.

    Regardless, the American Left does hate Jews.

    Just wait.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  232. There are statistics which were collected from time to time.

    Page 71: According to ‘an eyewitness, Liverpool, 1797′ it was generally accepted that 1/4 of all the ships belonging to the port of Liverpool are involved in the African trade, that it has 5/8 of the African trade of Great Britain and 3/7 of the African trade of all Europe (so Britain had almost 2/3 of the European slave trade and by that time there were Yankees counted separately. The Yankee ships, by the way, were kinder to the seamen but crueler to the slaves.)

    Now from 1783 (after the peace treaty with the United States) to 1793 (the outbreak of the wars with France) a total of 303,737 slaves were sold from Liverpool ships to the West Indies. This
    came from 878 voyages over 11 years, or 346 per ship who survived the trip..A one eighth death toll, would mean they started out with 395, a 1/16 death toll would be 369.

    A voyage lasted 9 or 10 months, so that’s one trip a year. 878 voyages over 11 years, if evenly spread out would work out to 80 ships, but it probably rose over time.

    The total means about 30,000 slaves from Africa a year, and about 70,000 all told from all sources. 100 years of that would be 7 million, which is too high because it was interrupted by wars and also rose with time.

    In the year 1800, 120 ships were sent from Liverpool to the African coast with accommodations for 31,844 slaves (in 1788 Parliament, in a first reform, which also benefited the wealthiest and most established slave traders, had passed a law limiting the number of slaves a vessel could carry according to its tonnage, about 5 slaves for every 3 tonnes – that’s where this figure of 31,844 berths comes from. some more could have been illegally carried, on the other hands some ships were likely not filled to their legal capacity.)

    That year there were also 10 ships sent from London and 3 from Bristol, all of them smaller ships than the Liverpool average.

    Liverpool transported more than 90% of the slaves and that year French and Dutch commerce had been driven from the ocean.

    The only competition was Yankee slavers from Newport and Bristol, Rhode Island.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  233. Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:37 pm

    the 3/5ths was at the Northern states’ insistence to keep the Southern representaion low in forming Congressional districts. If slaves had been counted as full persons, the South would have dominated the Union in the House and in the Electoral College.

    Because the slaves had no vote, of course, ad the people closest geographically to them, weren’t sympathetic to their plight. This familiar talking point gets things all wrong, but some people like the sound of it.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  234. Former Conservative – I thought you were one of the commenters advancing the theory that black people were less intelligent than white people. How does that dovetail with your empathy and vote gathering strategery?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  235. 194. Comment by Steve57 (a65996) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:43 pm

    Daniel P. Mannix… was a competent writer on many subjects, and his stories were always entertaining.

    The conclusion he winds far as deaths from the African slave trade) is that ten times as many Africans were killed by their fellow Africans in preparation for selling them to transatlantic slave traders, as died on the voyage, which you know is ridiculous, as a sea voyage was one of the most dangerous things that could be.

    I suppose he must have been locked into his total by something or other. He doesn’t devote much attention to this number.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  236. Sammy – The 3/5 provision was for the apportionment of Representatives in the House and direct taxes. It had nothing to do with individual voting and I don’t believe anyone has claimed it did.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  237. “as a sea voyage was one of the most dangerous things that could be”

    Sammy – Because of the hostile tribes of sea monsters?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  238. 192. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:02 pm

    R.J. Rummel calculated 17 million dead in 400 years of the African slave trade. But the range of estimates is as low as 4 million and as high as 65 million. (Remember that the bulk of the slave trade terminated in South America and Brazilian plantations had a high rate of death in addition to the large fraction of losses in transit of the Atlantic)

    I like Rummel, but in some cases he’s just using what’s out there, and sometimes what’s out there is not very good at all in terms of accuracy.

    Now some ships may have been worse than the British ones, especially maybe early Spanish and Portuguese ones, but it couldn’t have averaged above 20% or so and was probably less, except some voyages had extremely high mortality rates.

    Even if 2/3 of the slaves eventually died, there were probably not anywhere near 17 million transported in the first place. someone maybe can explain where they get their figures.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  239. “as a sea voyage was one of the most dangerous things that could be”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/29/2013 @ 8:46 p

    Sammy – Because of the hostile tribes of sea monsters?

    Really because of the danger of shipwrecks from storms. There ought to be some estimates of the number of ships that sunk – or the average percentage – during then 1500 through 1800 period, but the book doesn’t seem to pay attention to that at all.

    It also was dangerous because of the possible spread of disease and possible limited food and water.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  240. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/29/2013 @ 8:44 pm

    Sammy – The 3/5 provision was for the apportionment of Representatives in the House and direct taxes. It had nothing to do with individual voting and I don’t believe anyone has claimed it did.

    When you say 3/5 of a man it comes across that way. It may have gotten started by people whio read the constitution and didn’t pick up on what this was all about. Since the slaves of course didn’t vote and their interests were not represented by those who did, it was better for them, of course, if they didn’t count at all.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  241. 238. …I suppose he must have been locked into his total by something or other. He doesn’t devote much attention to this number.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb) — 7/29/2013 @ 8:42 pm

    I somewhat doubt that Dan Mannix thought very deeply about a throwaway line in a largely fictitious book he was trying to sell.

    Not that I blame him. Good Lord, let no one think I’m blaming Dan Mannix for the fact there was a period in US history when you couldn’t take toe nail clippers on air line flights.

    Dan Mannix said quite a few things that seem to support today’s insanity. It’s just that no one thought today’s insanity was a remote possibility back when Dan Mannix said them.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  242. He was a vulgar, violent, illiterate loadie enamored with ill-gotten gains and no respect for others property, public or private.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/28/2013 @ 1:15 pm

    lol – I haven’t heard “loadie” since HS – in the 70′s!

    Amy Shulkusky (676892)

  243. Comment by Mark (938403) — 7/29/2013 @ 7:47 pm

    by liberal Woodrow Wilson,

    Woodrow Wilson has a reputation as a liberal, but on race he wasn’t a liberal at all, and it mattered then too because in fact he did some things that weer bad. People think he came from New jersey, or if they look up his place of birth they think he came from Virginia, but actually he grew up in the Deep South during the Civil War and right after, and was present in Georgia (age 5 1/2) when Sherman was marching through it.

    about Franklin Roosevelt and his blatantly anti-Jewish attitudes (ie, blaming Jews for the Hitlerian mindset sweeping over 1930s Germany),

    A rationalization, which really didn’t last. he was happy on the fact he’d help arrange a Jewish quota at Harvard. The more significant fact about FDR is his tremendous political cowardice, and his lying. This is man who couldn’t forthrightly say he wanted to replace his Vice President in 1944.

    his anti-Asian, anti-miscegenation racism,

    Don’t know much about it. The internment of the Japanese from the west coast was political expediency. He wasn’t so anti-Asian that he didn’t go all out in support of China.

    and the gut-wrenching bigotry of FDR’s VP, Harry Truman, whose speech and writings behind closed doors would make a Klanner blush.

    He was against the Klan because it was also against Catholics, and he had commanded Catholics during world war I. Harry S Truman liked affecting coarse language. He also came from a Confederate family.

    Do you realize how many southerners we had as president before Jimmy Carter? There was also Johnson.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  244. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/29/2013 @ 4:27 pm

    think the seventy some years of Jim Crowe, after the Civil War,

    Seventy years is correct. People don’t realize it. It’s not 100 years. From about 1894 to 1964.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  245. Hoagie @ 4:29pm.
    You are confused. Only a fraction of the African slave trade was destined for the United States.

    SPQR (768505)

  246. Regardless, the American Left does hate Jews.

    I’m still stunned by the revelation (recent to me, but known to some historians at least quite a few years ago) that one of the heroes of the Democrat Party, of 20th-century liberalism (if not beyond) overall, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, was surprisingly petty and bigoted about Jews and apparently other groups too (ie, Asians/Japanese).

    Although there’s no specific statement attributed to him, and which I’m aware of, that indicates he had a similarly intolerant attitude towards blacks, it’s not much of a stretch to assume he was no better in that regards too. A hint of that is he reportedly never publicly feted Jesse Owens after his major victories at the 1936 Berlin Olympics. A bigger irony of that is even Adolph Hitler eventually came around to publicly acknowledging Owens’ athletic success, but not FDR.

    One of the few good stereotypes I originally (repeat: originally) associated with the left was it being supposedly — supposedly — a more tolerant, more all-embracing, more open-minded bunch of people than others.

    Bzzzt-t-t and do’h! to me.

    Mark (938403)

  247. “Woodrow Wilson has a reputation as a liberal, but on race he wasn’t a liberal at all”

    Sammy – If Wilson’s views were common among the liberal elite, how is it possible not to label them liberal, especially given the continuity of liberal racism? Your statement is nonsensical.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  248. “It also was dangerous because of the possible spread of disease and possible limited food and water.”

    Sammy – So you’re pretty much making it up as you go along and have no evidence to support your claim?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  249. 252.“It also was dangerous because of the possible spread of disease and possible limited food and water.”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/29/2013 @ 9:36 pm

    Sammy – So you’re pretty much making it up as you go along and have no evidence to support your claim?

    Everywhere you read a lot of people died on a voyage, and they didn’t die like that on shore unless it was a really bad place for someone with that immune system to be.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  250. Harry S Truman liked affecting coarse language.

    And behaving in a similarly crude and ill-mannered way in general too. Such as his making TV producer David Susskind, when he came to visit Truman’s home in Missouri for a documentary he was making, stand outside on the porch. Susskind was quite puzzled by that, so much so he ended up asking Truman what that was all about. Truman said that no Jew had ever been allowed inside his house, and that his private residence was very different from the context of the White House and presumably the etiquette he had to observe there.

    BTW, Truman was no ideological chameleon — meaning he wasn’t a closeted rightwinger — since he embraced things like the idea of publicly funded healthcare several decades before the arrival of Obamacare. On the campaign trail he also would explicitly use “conservative” or “conservatives” in a negative way.

    In 1950 he said things like the following:

    trumanlibrary.org: We are vigorously pressing domestic programs to improve the standard of living of our people, to assure equal opportunity for all, and to promote their health and education, and their security and freedom. These programs were not specifically designed as anti-Communist measures. We would have had them even if there were not a single Communist in the world.

    …Now I am going to tell you how we are not going to fight communism…. We are not going to turn the United States into a right-wing totalitarian country in order to deal with a left-wing totalitarian threat.

    Mark (938403)

  251. I don’t know that Woodrow Wilson’s views were common among the liberal elite. I think most liberals didn’t know and didn’t care what he thought, because they wereb’t really concerned about that issue, which was not salient for most of them.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  252. “Everywhere you read a lot of people died on a voyage, and they didn’t die like that on shore”

    Sammy – The links people have supplied show fatalities prior to ocean transit as significantly greater than fatalities in ocean transit. Seriously.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  253. Did someone argue that slavery was not a big deal? Good Allah.

    Comment by JD (2ad32a) — 7/29/2013 @ 8:28 pm

    Of course not. Christoph, like any troll, will argue against something you didn’t say because that’s a good way to troll for reactions while also expressing judgment.

    Dustin (303dca)

  254. “I don’t know that Woodrow Wilson’s views were common among the liberal elite.”

    Sammy – I think you should have stopped right there instead of making stuff up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  255. I don’t know that Woodrow Wilson’s views were common among the liberal elite.

    I don’t know about the elite within the liberal world, but the biases of such people in general oddly and strangely enough — and I don’t say that sarcastically but descriptively — seem to affect them in just the opposite way of what one would assume.

    I’ve posted this previously, but it fits right here once again.

    Dailycaller.com, March 2011:

    Social scientists usually measure traditional racism against African Americans by looking at the survey responses of white Americans only. Among whites in the latest General Social Survey (2008)[conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago], only 4.5% of small-government advocates express the view that “most Blacks/African-Americans have less in-born ability to learn,” compared to 12.3% of those who favor bigger government or take a middle position expressing this racist view.

    [A]mong whites, Republican advocates of smaller government are even less racist (1.3% believing that blacks have less in-born ability) than the rest of the general public (11.3% expressing racist views). Thus, in 2008 Republicans who believe that the government in Washington does too much have 10 times higher odds of not expressing racist views on the in-born ability question than the rest of the population (79-to-1 odds v. 7.9-to-1 odds).

    What about conservative Republicans more generally, not just the ones who want a smaller government? Surely they must be more racist. Actually not. In 2008, only 5.4% of white conservative Republicans expressed racist views on the in-born ability question, compared to 10.3% of the rest of the white population.

    [T]his same pattern holds for white Democrats compared to white Republicans: in 2008 12.3% of white Democrats in the U.S. believed that African Americans were born with less ability, compared to only 6.6% of white Republicans.

    Another traditional racism question — on segregated neighborhoods — was asked on fifteen General Social Surveys from 1972 through 1996. Though the percentage of white Democrats and white Republicans who slightly or strongly agreed that “White people have a right to keep Blacks out of their neighborhoods” did not differ significantly in any one survey, overall white Democrats were…more likely to support segregated neighborhoods than white Republicans (30.4% to 26.3%).

    Mark (938403)

  256. The Twitchy guy who banned me taking charge of a George Zimmermann thread:

    “Get back, I say, or I’ll shoot you all like dogs! Keep order here! Keep order I say. Mr. Lowe, man this boat.”

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  257. Inspired by elements of this discussion, here I am, recommending another book to my fellow commenters. The Known World by Edward P. Jones won the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award. Jones explores an oft-neglected chapter of American history, the world of blacks who owned other blacks in the antebellum South. Most interestingly it is a book written by a black man about free blacks who became black slaveholders.

    Set in Manchester County, Virginia, 20 years before the Civil War began, Edward P. Jones’s debut novel, The Known World, is a masterpiece of overlapping plot lines, time shifts, and heartbreaking details of life under slavery. Caldonia Townsend is an educated black slaveowner, the widow of a well-loved young farmer named Henry, whose parents had bought their own freedom, and then freed their son, only to watch him buy himself a slave as soon as he had saved enough money. Although a fair and gentle master by the standards of the day, Henry Townsend had learned from former master about the proper distance to keep from one’s property. After his death, his slaves wonder if Caldonia will free them. When she fails to do so, but instead breaches the code that keeps them separate from her, a little piece of Manchester County begins to unravel. Impossible to rush through, The Known World is a complex, beautifully written novel with a large cast of characters, rewarding the patient reader with unexpected connections, some reaching into the present day.

    elissa (399805)

  258. Caldonia sounds like she hasn’t thought everything through to where not all her decisions are grounded in moral clarity

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  259. You must keep in mind that Caledonia had neither Dear Abby or wikipedia to help her, feets.

    elissa (399805)

  260. I think thIs book is historically wrong. At least if you try to set it 20 years before the Civil War.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  261. @147, Reff: I dunno if anyone is still following the thread, but yes, reff, that’s exactly what I meant.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  262. Sammy, you should probably consider this from the Virginia Foundation For the Humanities: the reality of Henry Townsend adheres to the historical record. According to scholarship done in the 1920s by Carter G. Woodson, 12 percent of all free black heads of families in Virginia in 1830 owned slaves.

    Historical Accuracy
    When The Known World first appeared, it was considered something of a novelty because of its unusual subject matter. Scholars, however, have since affirmed its general accuracy. In 1924 and 1925, the African American historian Carter G. Woodson published two groundbreaking papers on black slave owners. Using Woodson’s data as his starting point, Thomas J. Pressly, a professor emeritus of history at the University of Washington, has concluded that “Edward P. Jones’s historical novel successfully meets major tests of statistical plausibility for its historical period.”

    The 1830 U.S. census shows 3,776 free black slaveholders—or about 7.5 percent of all free blacks—owning a total of 12,907 slaves. In Virginia, 12 percent of all free blacks owned slaves, which translates into 950 heads of black families owning 2,235 slaves. In Jones’s fictional Manchester County, there are “thirty-four free black families … and eight of those free families owned slaves.” That’s nearly a quarter of all free African American families owning slaves, but Pressly argues that this is not inaccurate. Although for the entire state the rate is 12 percent, if “that state statistic is broken down further, it turns out that in several Virginia counties, free black slaveowners reached 25 percent or more of the free black heads of families. Thus Jones’s Manchester County is well within general range.”

    Meanwhile, the vast majority of black and white slave owners, in Virginia and in the United States, owned just a few slaves. Henry Townsend owns thirty-three when he dies and, according to Pressly, “would have been among the top one percent of free black slaveholders, each of whom owned from 20 to 84 slaves.”

    http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Known_World_The_2003#start_entry

    elissa (861226)

  263. 1830! You said this was 20 years before the Civil War.

    You’ve got to watch out for these things, when somebody picks a date. It may be a maximum.

    1830 was before Nat Turner’s rebellion in 1832.

    http://www.balchfriends.org/glimpse/JPetersIntroBkLaws.htm

    Free Negroes’ rights to own slaves

    Another law passed in 1832 curtailed the rights of free people of color to own slaves. After this date, no free Negro would be able to acquire ownership of any slave, except through inheritance, other than his own spouse or children.

    In 1858, further restriction took place. Free Negroes could now own slaves only through inheritance.

    is that in the book?

    There were all kinds of other rules.

    the legislature forbade preaching by slaves, free Negroes, or mulattos at religious meetings. Indeed free people of color and slaves were forbidden to hold any religious meeting during the day or evening. The penalty for violating this ordinance was a public whipping of thirty-nine lashes.

    Slaves attending religious meetings without the consent of their master were also liable to a public whipping. However, religious instruction to slaves of free Negroes could be given during the day by a licensed white minister and the slaves of any one owner could assemble for religious instruction during the day.

    And things got worse and worse:

    Finally:

    In 1860, the legislature decreed that free Negroes who committed offenses punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary could be, at the discretion of the county court, sold into absolute slavery.

    In 1830, Sally Heminmgs was counted as white in the U.S. census. I think by 1840 her children had left the state. Entering certain states was sometimes illegal.

    By the way between the 1840 and 1850 censuses the number of Negroes reported went down because probably a lot of free Negroes, if they were light skinned enough, passed for white.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  264. Sammy-look if it’s going to bother you, don’t read the book then. And please don’t get yourself in a lather. Many people, (I among them) did not fully realize how pervasive black slaveholders were in certain parts of this country. Many people still don’t know about it. And personally I think that it’s a story that needs to be told both for blacks’ and whites’ more complete understanding of our nation’s complex racial history.

    And yes. As was mentioned, Caledonia inherited the slaves from her free black husband, Henry.

    elissa (861226)

  265. Sammy – You need to avoid getting in over your head.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  266. No, something is wrong.

    This is probably more like science fiction (where somebody imagines a society – here an alternate history) than historical fiction.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  267. Elissa – your white privilege compels you to discuss this. But, you are breaking her rule where it is verboten to discuss black on black crime.

    JD (2c92fa)

  268. I think the problem is this is written by someone more than a century and half later, and it is easy to get things all wrong so it is more like science fiction – imagining how a certain society would function, and missing certain important things.

    This particular idea, a free black family slaves owning slaves in Virginia close to the Civil War isa probably something nobody could even think of till well over a centiry had passed.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  269. the United States population in 1780 was about 4, 000,000. That’s including black people.

    So you want to adjust the race mongers numbers of dead slaves in the middle passage to comport with reality.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  270. “This particular idea, a free black family slaves owning slaves in Virginia close to the Civil War isa probably something nobody could even think of till well over a centiry had passed.”

    Sammy – Except for people who know history, as documented by the link you yourself provided.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  271. The link shows that it became very hard to free slaves in Virginia.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  272. Oh good allah. Sammy, honestly. Your response to this is stomping your feet with fingers in your ears while scrunching up your face and chanting “la la la”? That’s your primary argument (census records and other historical data to the contrary) that blacks owning black slaves never happened? Really?

    elissa (861226)

  273. Here is a short piece by Henry Louis Gates on the subject of black people owning slaves in the U.S.:

    http://www.theroot.com/views/did-black-people-own-slaves

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  274. If it’s hard and Sammy didn’t know about it before somebody brought it up on a thread, that means it didn’t happen. Facts, they mean nothing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  275. I didn’t say blacks owning slaves didn’t happen, I didn’t say there weren’t still some in Virginia close to the Civil War, I said there was something wrong with people expecting to freed, or being freed and staying in Virginia (after 1806) and with the whole story here. A problem with people not being extremely conscious of the law, which it didn’t sound like you were describing.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  276. And worried about a new law, or being re-enslaved.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  277. Self-refuting links mean nothing!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  278. ** face palm **

    SPQR (768505)

  279. 256. “Everywhere you read a lot of people died on a voyage, and they didn’t die like that on shore”

    Sammy – The links people have supplied show fatalities prior to ocean transit as significantly greater than fatalities in ocean transit. Seriously.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/29/2013 @ 9:50 pm

    The slave trade was so closely tied to the ivory trade that the slaves taken in intertribal warfare were called “black ivory.”

    Essentially their value to the African slavers wasn’t just as a commodity to be sold at the coast, but as a beast of burden to carry other commodities to the coast. One of the most valuable of those commodities was of course ivory.

    When the African slavers would go take take part in ongoing tribal conflicts to go raiding for slaves, those too young, too old, lame, pregnant, etc., would be slaughtered. For whatever reason, if a captive couldn’t carry a load to the coast they had no value.

    Essentially the slaves who survived to be sold to the European traders had already proven their worth as laborers under the worst possible conditions. They had market value, which is why they weren’t wantonly killed during Trans-Atlantic voyages in anything like the numbers that were killed in the African interior.

    Steve57 (a65996)

  280. My favorite is telling whites you don’t get to judge black people on how they dress like with pants around their ankles.

    Uh, yes, I do.

    Jack Burton (9d5e22)


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