Patterico's Pontifications

7/15/2013

Zimmerman Verdict Fallout and Notes

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:25 am

A few loosely related links and thoughts on the fallout from the Zimmerman acquittal:

Barack Obama has spoken on George Zimmerman’s acquittal:

The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.

Mr. President, George Zimmerman was acquitted. Therefore, his case has nothing to do with “the tide of gun violence.” Just like when you said that Trayvon Martin could be your son, you are stomping all over your d[vowel omitted]ck, and you need to just shut up.

You’re welcome.

DoJ has been asked to, and has, re-opened its investigation of whether to charge Zimmerman with civil rights violations. First of all, DoJ has a little conflict of interest problem, since it has now been caught encouraging protestors to demand Zimmerman be prosecuted.

The legal watchdog Judicial Watch released an audio recording Thursday of a Department of Justice staffer urging Sanford, Fla., city officials and the minority advocacy group Dream Defenders to seek justice for Trayvon Martin, because “if a community perceives that there’s something wrong in the black community, there’s something wrong.”

Second, the case doesn’t even come close to meeting DoJ guidelines for a federal prosecution. Not even close.

But Barack Obama says this is about gun violence, so I suppose there will be pressure on DoJ to mount a bogus prosecution.

But the person who really needs an investigation is Angela Corey. As John Fund explains (h/t Instapundit):

The Florida Bar’s rules state that the government’s attorneys shall “refrain from prosecuting a charge that the prosecutor knows is not supported by probable cause . . . [and] make timely disclosure to the defense of all evidence or information known to the prosecutor that tends to negate the guilt of the accused or mitigates the offense.”

Angela Corey flagrantly violated those standards. Her prosecutors waited months before giving the defense photos showing the extent of George Zimmerman’s injuries the night of the shooting. Ben Kruidbos, the information-technology director for the state attorney’s office, was shocked when he learned that prosecutors hadn’t turned over to the defense evidence of photos and text messages that Kruidbos had recovered from Martin’s cell phone. The photos included images of a pile of jewelry on a bed, underage nude females, marijuana, and a hand menacingly holding a semiautomatic weapon.

Kruidbos feared he would put his job in jeopardy if he came forward with this information, but he also was concerned about a possible miscarriage of justice, so he directed his attorneys to alert Zimmerman’s defense team about the withheld evidence. He turned over the photos in late May, and the state placed Kruidbos on administrative leave until this past Friday, the day the Zimmerman case went to the jury. That morning, according to the Florida Times-Union, he received a hand-delivered letter from Corey informing him that he was fired and that he “can never again be trusted to step foot in this office.” The treatment he received for telling the defense about government misconduct will discourage others from becoming whistleblowers.

I hope he sues the crap out of them, and I hope Corey is investigated. Mr. Kruidbos, let me know where I can send money to help fund a lawsuit.

Meanwhile, Zimmerman has his own lawsuit against NBC, and may go to law school:

After his acquittal on murder charges for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman may go to law school to help people wrongly accused of crimes like himself, close friends told Reuters on Sunday.

The 29-year old was found not guilty late Saturday for shooting the unarmed black teenager in a case that sparked a national debate on race and gun laws. One of his first calls was to defense witness John Donnelly and his wife Leanne Benjamin.

They got to know Zimmerman in 2004 when he and a black friend opened up an insurance office in a Florida building where Benjamin worked. They grew close and the couple spent time with him during the trial.

Over dinner with Zimmerman recently, Benjamin said he told them he would like to go to law school.”I’d like to help other people like me,” she quoted him as telling them.

Zimmerman is even talking about being a prosecutor. His lawyer Mark O’Mara says “prosecuting appropriately – not like what he got – is something he’s very interested in.” I think that’s laudable. Being a good prosecutor, in my view, does help the innocent — as it allows one to refuse to prosecute cases that are being brought because of public pressure. (Until the political system swoops in and gives it to another prosecutor . . . but that’s another matter.)

Yes, Zimmerman’s goal is a good one. But he might be better served, and serve better, being a private lawyer who sues media outlets who smear people.

“The person they are talking about is somebody completely different,” [Zimmerman friend John] Donnelly quoted Zimmerman as telling him recently. “Sometimes I have to go look at a mirror. They are talking about a totally different human being. They are talking about a racist. I’m not a racist.”

He said Zimmerman was anything but.

“He’s been mentoring young black kids for years, he launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid, and he still just can’t believe all the things that have been said about him in the media.”

LAPD Sgt. Stacy Koon once gave mouth to mouth resuscitation to a black transvestite, and was demonized as a racist to the point where someone came to his halfway house with a gun looking to kill him. Koon wasn’t there so the crazed gunman killed someone else. This is what Big Media does with people. It chews them up ad spits them out and immediately looks for another chew toy to torture.

I want people held accountable. Let’s start with the lawsuit against NBC News bankrupted and an investigation into Angela Corey.

555 Responses to “Zimmerman Verdict Fallout and Notes”

  1. This is what post-racial America looks like.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  2. Ding!!!
    Eat your heart out, Dana [insert modifier here].
    :-)

    gramps, the original (13e453)

  3. The political pressure is already mounting to prosecute Zimmerman for an alleged civil rights violation, and the Martin family certainly has the option to pursue him civilly, so Zimmerman is looking at another $1MM-$2MM for defending himself in those cases.

    I am confident that the Dems will find a way to twist the case into becoming an issue in the 2014 national elections as well. Zimmerman’s life will be a living he11 for a long time to come.

    in_awe (7c859a)

  4. She cheats and feels good about it. Those are the worst people in the world; and she has no respect for the law, those are the worst prosecutors in the world.

    I hope her actions in her public capacity are exposed and she no longer profits from them.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  5. Angela Corey is ewwwwww.

    JD (b63a52)

  6. I don’t think the Martin family will relish wider circulation of Trayvon’s mysterious heap of jewelry on the bed that he photographed for his friends.
    Since I’m on a worst things kick, would it not be the worst thing in the world to have it laid out that Trayvon really could have been a thief and housebreaker?

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  7. Angela Corey will be getting a better Federal job shortly. It’s how it works. Anyone thinking differently, just isn’t paying attention.

    dfbaskwill (ca54bb)

  8. Add Nancy Grace to the lawsuit list.

    Craig Mc (298e5a)

  9. Since I’m on a worst things kick, would it not be the worst thing in the world to have it laid out that Trayvon really could have been a thief and housebreaker?

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/15/2013 @ 7:54 am

    Their partisans will simply refuse to believe it or acknowledge it. And also, racist!

    nk (875f57)

  10. Good thing HLN wasn’t around in 1992.
    Nancy Grace could have sneeringly bellowed:
    F**king Koon! Like as if she was onto something no one else had thought of.
    If there was any fairness in the entertainment world Nancy Grace and Joy Behar would be relegated to a sumo jello wrestling circuit over in Manila

    SteveG (794291)

  11. Compare the response to OJ’s acquittal to this one.

    rochf (f3fbb0)

  12. An interesting theory in American Thinker. Maybe this is part of the anti-gun agenda.

    Destroying the Second Amendment and the people’s right of self-defense was the real goal of the George Zimmerman prosecution. Liberals hoped to scare gun owners, regardless of the eventual verdict. Traumatizing and intimidating people from using a firearm to defend themselves were what this case was really about.

    Stranger things have happened, especially with this crowd. One has to be experienced with forensic psychology to understand the motives of the Obama administration. They are not normal. Imagine what a wanna-be thug (who went to Harvard law school) would do.

    Mike K (dc6ffe)

  13. Florida law has an immunity provision to protect people from civil suits in self defense cases. They were mentioning it. It would take a whole ‘nother round of malfeasance to get to it and this one has stakes: it’s loser pays.

    Federal, of course, is anyone game.

    luagha (9f5807)

  14. People are mad that the jury didn’t convict Zimmerman on the grounds of imagination.

    “Your honor, there is no evidence of racial profiling. But because Zimmerman is kinda sorta white we’ll assume he’s a racist, because you know how white people are, and we find him guilty.”

    This country is idiotic.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  15. NBC would be wise to settle quickly. Ten mil should do it. Defamed? Check. Damage. Check. Write check.

    They will try to claim he was a public figure, but 1) their statements were still false and recklessly so, and 2) he became a public figure in part because of their defamation.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  16. It would be a real stretch to find a Federal violation in this matter as the civil-rights guidelines are written to bring cases against agents of the state that exceed their authority in violating the civil-rights of civilians, and others who may be in government employment.
    GZ fits none of that.
    Angela Corey, on the other hand, may have violated George Zimmerman’s civil-rights in the manner in which she brought charges that did not measure up, and in the way she concealed exculpatory evidence from the defense.
    Her disbarment will be quite welcome – they can hang her picture next to Nifong’s.

    Also, I would not be surprised to see a Primary challenge to Governor Scott, if he chooses to run for re-election – he (messed) up Big Time!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  17. This whole case rests on the following:

    1. Some white people are racists.
    2. George Zimmerman is white.
    3. Punish him.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  18. Ongoing psychological intimidation which is masked or fronted as something else is a powerful tool when it’s used by people with power and influence, Mike K. The president’s masterful speech yesterday was actually kind of a tell in several respects, wasn’t it?

    elissa (a5cf21)

  19. Greetings:

    I have a question about how the state can charge a suspect for both murder and manslaughter for the same action. If the state is supposed to be able to prove the crime, why two bites at the apple?Obviously, the two crimes are different, so shouldn’t the state have to pick one and not the other or is this another exception to what used to be “double jeopardy” ???

    11B40 (6bcb15)

  20. 11B40, in Florida, when you charge for one crime, all lesser crimes are assumed to be charged as well.

    That goes all the way down to battery. By charging him with Second Degree murder, they were really charging him with a host of other crimes. When it’s time to give the jury instructions, the prosecution and defense can argue before the judge over what was supportable. The judge in this case didn’t think felony murder (the child abuse one) was supporter, just as she wouldn’t have found vehicular manslaughter was supported.

    Dustin (303dca)

  21. Too late, original Gramps: you came in second. :)

    The Dana who got in comment #1 on the other thread (3e4784)

  22. 11B40, perhaps some definitions of manslaughter are semantically different from murder, but in the run of homicide laws manslaughter is a lesser included offense of murder, that the jury can find if the state has not proven the mental state required for murder. The act is the same — a voluntary (voluntary does not mean intentional) act that caused the death of a person. The mental state differentiates them. It’s broadly murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, with refinements in each depending on the present concerns of the jurisdiction. Again, broadly, the jury (and the court in modifying a verfdict) may consider lesser includeds if they are supported by the evidence even if that is not either the prosecution’s or the defense’s primary strategy. The legislature can also define what is and what is not a lesser included, even if we might see it differently semantically, as long as every element of the lesser included is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I lost a case, in a big way, arguing that the State could not ask for attempt because it had not charged it and it had the additional element of specific intent. But, by rule, attempt is always a lesser included in Illinois.

    nk (875f57)

  23. No, not always, I take that back. There are some crimes that you cannot “intend” according to Illinois.

    nk (875f57)

  24. Reverend Jesse Jackson: “Well, it was a stretch, trying to avoid the obvious. There was no–you speak of jury of your peers: there was no man on the jury—Trayvon was a black boy—there was no man, no black on the jury. So at least the idea of jury of your peers was a stretch all the while.”

    – That’s right, he wanted a jury of the VICTIM’S peers, not peers of the accused.

    Icy (5a03be)

  25. It is truly astonishing that after the Duke Lacrosse case and Mike Nifong’s disbarment, that Angela Corey would so enthusiastically rush headlong down the same path of perverted justice leading directly to self-destruction.

    If she didn’t already have a golden parachute well secured before launching one of the most obvious one-sided public displays of government sponsored kangaroo justice since the Dreyfus Affair, she’s an even bigger fool then she appears. And, she appears to be both monumentally foolish on a personal level and blindingly oblivious to the legal consequences of gross malfeasance in office.

    ropelight (10beb0)

  26. I’m not sure Angela Corey thinks that way. I believe that she is sincere in her maliciousness. It is in her character and she found the job which helps her fullfill herself. Scott and Biondi are the hypocritical, cynical politicians who threw Zimmerman to the rabid b***h for political reasons.

    nk (875f57)

  27. I just had lunch at a very biracial Wendy’s. No hint of tension whatsoever from the staff or patrons. People were people, even when reading about this case.

    Two observations. First, perhaps the effect of racial demagoguery is exaggerated. Second, I’m a bit ashamed that I doubted the fairness and wisdom of the people in my community.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  28. The business across the alley is a marketing firm of some kind. It employs a lot of young black men. They were on the job this morning, neatly groomed, with a polite “Hello” for the old white guy in his front yard.

    nk (875f57)

  29. If she didn’t already have a golden parachute well secured before launching one of the most obvious one-sided public displays of government sponsored kangaroo justice since the Dreyfus Affair, she’s an even bigger fool then she appears.

    Perhaps you didn’t hear: State Attorney Angela Corey upgrades her pension with taxpayer dollars

    She is packing that chute herself.

    Dustin (303dca)

  30. Obama’s comments are just stunningly juvenile and irresponsible. But then, his goal in this trial was to undermine his base’s confidence in the justice system, just as he has systematically undermined their confidence in Congress as an institution and in the Constitution as a guarantor of our rights.

    This is what fundamental transformation looks like, folks. It doesn’t mean a single crazy dictator overthrowing our system of government and justice, it means convincing a majority of Americans to demand it.

    rockmom (4a3cd9)

  31. First, perhaps the effect of racial demagoguery is exaggerated. Second, I’m a bit ashamed that I doubted the fairness and wisdom of the people in my community.

    Amphip, maybe even the blacks are getting cynical about this bunch in Washington. There is an illiterate crowd in the ghetto that hasn’t gotten the news but maybe they are not among those you saw.

    Mike K (dc6ffe)

  32. Dustin, perhaps it would be better is someone else packed that chute for her.

    With all due vigor.

    The not quite profane Dana (3e4784)

  33. I’m still at a loss to see how any federal hate crimes prosecution wouldn’t be double jeopardy. It would be simply another murder trial.

    The state has already tried him for unlawfully causing TM’s death due to depraved indifference to human life and failed because they couldn’t disprove self-defense. GZ lawfully killed TM.

    Now the feds get another chance to try and prove GZ unlawfully caused TM’s death due to racial bias?

    GZ would again claim self-defense. It would simply be a do over on the federal level but alleging a different motive.

    I couldn’t ask for a starker illustration of what I’ve been saying all along. The only thing that turns this obvious act of self-defense into a crime in the minds of racists like Al “hymietown” Sharpton and Eric “my people” Holder is the skin color of Trayvon Martin. It’s the same as theirs.

    Steve57 (996952)

  34. Dustin, perhaps it would be better is someone else packed that chute for her.

    With all due vigor.

    Comment by The not quite profane Dana (3e4784) — 7/15/2013

    It reeks of conflict of interest, and speaks to her true interest (personal) in her prosecutions of many people, not just Zimmerman. This tyrant needs to be made an example of by the legal profession.

    Dustin (303dca)

  35. And Dana, she’s packing Florida’s chute nicely, so to speak. This trial has cost the state an enormous amount both in money and reputation.

    Dustin (303dca)

  36. In a few statutes, Congress says no dual jurisdiction. Otherwise, the federal government is a different sovereign with different governmental interests to vindicate. It’s fine as a legal rule and in accord with our history and our form of government. The objection here is the abuse of prosecutorial discretion it would involve — much worse than that shown by Angela (Most Fallen) Corey.

    nk (875f57)

  37. I never imagined I would ever be caught defending Al Sharpton, but it was Jesse Jackson who famously referred to New York City as ‘Hymietown’. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sharpton uses the word in private, but there’s no proof, and it was definitely Jackson who was got caught using it in public.

    Now I’m feeling an odd mixture of pride and shame: I never thought doing the right thing could make me feel so dirty. Defending Al Sharpton, ugh!

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  38. 31.First, perhaps the effect of racial demagoguery is exaggerated. Second, I’m a bit ashamed that I doubted the fairness and wisdom of the people in my community.

    Amphip, maybe even the blacks are getting cynical about this bunch in Washington. There is an illiterate crowd in the ghetto that hasn’t gotten the news but maybe they are not among those you saw.

    Comment by Mike K (dc6ffe) — 7/15/2013 @ 10:47 am

    As per usual, I think Thomas Sowell has written an insightful piece on the gap between the racist demagoguery we see from “black leaders” on the national stage and the average citizen’s reaction of all races to what is essentially a non-event (although a personal tragedy all around for the people closely involved).

    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2013/jul/15/thomas-sowell-dont-look-to-leaders-to-solve-race/

    THOMAS SOWELL: Don’t look to leaders to solve race issues

    SAN ANGELO, Texas — I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

    Apparently other Americans also recognize that the sources of racism are different today from what they were in the past. According to a recent Rasmussen poll, 31 percent of blacks think that most blacks are racists, while 24 percent of blacks think that most whites are racist.

    …The moral claims advanced by generations of black leaders — claims that eventually touched the conscience of the nation and turned the tide toward civil rights for all — have now been cheapened by today’s generation of black “leaders,” who act as if it is all just a matter of whose ox is gored.

    Even in legal cases involving terrible crimes — the O.J. Simpson murder trial or the charges of gang rape against Duke University students — many black “leaders” and their followers have not waited for facts about who was guilty and who was not, but have immediately taken sides, based on who was black and who was white.

    I don’t want to excerpt it at length because that wouldn’t do him justice.

    A lot of black people I know have been sick and tired for years of being the designated followers of a bunch of black race pimps they’d never vote for in their lives. But that’s how the media sees it. They’re sick and tired of being told what they’re supposed to think simply because they’re black.

    Perhaps that’s why the membership of the Norfolk NAACP voted for Tristan Breaux for chapter president. He made the mistake of thinking for himself and asked his members to think logically, not racially. Now the usual suspects are demanding the national NAACP find some way to remove or silence him for daring to think for himself instead of towing the party line.

    Essentially people have a lot more common sense than they’re credited for. That’s not a matter of skin color. You don’t have to be white to look at Sharpton, or Jackson, or talking heads like Tourre or Travis Smiley and understand that they’re twisted racists whose racism will go unmentioned let alone unpunished. Blacks and Hispanics see it, too. Hence the gap between the histrionics we see on TV and the lack of general outrage.

    What I meant by non-event I think is best expressed by a couple of posts/tweets from Sooper Mexican.

    http://www.soopermexican.com/

    In the 514 Days Since Trayvon Died 565,914 Black Children Have Been Aborted

    He tweeted Obama right after the Preezy made that stupid comment about if he had a son he’d look like Trayvon. Sooper Mexican said “Hey, you know who else would look like you?” Then he mentioned the hundreds of thousands of black babies aborted every year.

    Or just flat murdered by the Dr. Gosnell’s around the country, but President Prom Queen can’t comment on that.

    And this post:

    In 513 Days Between Trayvon Dying and the Zimmerman Trial Verdict, 11,106 Blacks Have Been Murdered by OTHER BLACKS

    Obviously if there’s no race hatred to stir up then it’s not worth Obama’s or Sharpton’s time. And don’t think blacks, whites, latinos, Asians, etc., haven’t noticed.

    Steve57 (996952)

  39. Since there was no state action, nor acts under color of law, I can’t see how GZ could possibly have violated Trayvon’s civil rights.

    Dershowitz, meanwhile, is all over Corey.

    G Joubert (7cdbbd)

  40. 37.I never imagined I would ever be caught defending Al Sharpton, but it was Jesse Jackson who famously referred to New York City as ‘Hymietown’.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/15/2013 @ 11:12 am

    I’m deeply ashamed. I’ll refer to him correctly as Al “Crown Heights” Sharpton or Al “Freddie’s Fashion Mart” Sharpton. Which would be more appropriate because that would actually refer to the killings he instigated by fanning the flames of racism.

    Steve57 (996952)

  41. Some inconvenient facts for those spouting off about “gun violence”…..
    http://www.examiner.com/article/exclusive-states-with-toughest-gun-laws-have-triple-the-amount-of-gun-deaths

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  42. @ Dana #21: I was robbed! :-)

    gramps (13e453)

  43. Good idea, Steve57. By any fair calculation Al Sharpton has earned a place in Hell several rings lower than Jesse Jackson’s, and your new epithets get that across: he’s not just a bigot and a racial rabble-rouser, but an unrepentant inciter of mass murder – not just the hypothetical kind, either.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  44. I never imagined I would ever be caught defending Al Sharpton, but it was Jesse Jackson who famously referred to New York City as ‘Hymietown’. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sharpton uses the word in private, but there’s no proof, and it was definitely Jackson who was got caught using it in public.

    Sharpton instigated at least two riots targeting Jews. In both people were killed before they were over.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  45. That’s my point, Rob: Al Sharpton is so guilty of so many major crimes that I hated to exonerate him on the relatively minor charge of calling New York City ‘Hymietown’, but I felt I had to, since it was in fact Jackson, not Sharpton, who was caught saying that in public.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  46. It’s inevitable with almost anyone that he could be accused of things he didn’t do, and it’s not really good to do that, and is something to be avoided, and it doesn’t help.

    I have avoided that even with Bill Clinton.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  47. The Miami Herald has come out aaginst the 6-person jury:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/14/3497719/zimmerman-trial-time-to-reconsider.html

    I think that is bad and makes wrong verdicts more possible, but there was nothing wrongly decided in this case.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  48. Right now, I think Al Sharpton is really trying to help drug dealers. Drug dealers need places where people are free to steal to support a habit.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  49. 39. Dershowitz, meanwhile, is all over Corey.

    Comment by G Joubert (7cdbbd) — 7/15/2013 @ 11:32 am

    Dershowitz has been all over Corey from the start, and he’s been entirely vindicated. About the closest he came to making an error when he said the affidavit accompanying the criminal information Corey filed was so thin it wouldn’t make it past a judge. He later qualified that a bit and said it wouldn’t make it past a good judge.

    But he was correct from the start when he said that not only the state fail to establish the elements of the crime Zimmerman was charged with, everything was entirely consistent with Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. And he was right when he went on a very broad, stout limb and said that they had no stronger evidence.

    He was also correct when he said they put outright lies in the affidavit.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/page/florida-state-attorneys-office-affidavit-probable-16127488

    The most obvious lie the affidavit was this:

    When the police Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that…

    This is beyond question a lie. The dispatcher never instructed Zimmerman to do or refrain from doing anything. Moreover the dispatcher testified under oath that he didn’t instruct GZ not to follow TM, and on top of that testified that due to liability concerns it’s department policy to only offer suggestions and never give anyone commands.

    Knowing this, the affidavit stated the opposite. The other lies, such as GZ “profiled” TM, aren’t quite as obvious but they’re lies nonetheless. By “profiled” the affidavit asserts that if you participate in a neighborhood watch program and follow their instructions on how to identify suspicious activity and then give a physical description when asked you are committing a malicious act. Profiling. Because that’s all Zimmerman did. He reported suspicious activity as he was taught to do by the Sanford PD, and then responded to the Sanford PD dispatcher’s questions.

    The whole thing was preposterous from the start, and Dershowitz had it nailed. I don’t know what his reputation is among his fellow attorneys who post or comment here but his stock has certainly went up with me.

    Steve57 (996952)

  50. *When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that…*

    The affidavit on the ABC site is one of those scanned PDF files that you can’t copy.

    Steve57 (996952)

  51. I thought John Kerry was the one who’s been stomping all over his dock.

    Paul Zrimsek (19a56d)

  52. Mr. President, George Zimmerman was acquitted. Therefore, his case has nothing to do with “the tide of gun violence.”

    This case had to do with a tide of violent physical fights … which are higher in countries and states without the right to bear arms, by the way.

    The violent assault rate is higher in Britain, even Canada and Australia. So yes, that violence is a problem.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  53. FC:
    I don’t know about Canada, but I’ve read that the rape rates are 2-3 times as high in Britain and Australia as in the US. (One’s twice, the other three times, but I forget which is which.) Knowing that the women are all unarmed looks like a pretty strong incitement to rape in those with an inclination that way.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  54. Jim Geraghty in National Reviews Morning Jolt (can’t find a web link) seems to be falling for some of this propaganda.

    He says thbis is turning one more All-or-Nothing Moment for Our Nation’s Media, and just like Syrian rebels and the Assad regime, the question of Snowden being a hero or a traitor or Morsi and with the Egyptian military both antagonists are deeply flawed. Why do we have to pick a side. There don’t have to be any white hats.

    Now Zimmerman can be accused of bad judgement, but not too bad, for getting himself into the position he did, because he really had no reason to expect a confrontation, especially after Trayvon Martin ran away from him, and nothing like this happened with a previous 17-year old burglar.

    And it’s not really bad that he was somewhat out of shape, although he actually did moderately well in defending himself. You could possibly argue there was some bad judgement at the end of that fight, and he didn’t really have to fire the gun – he was doing OK.

    And there was an end in sight. He had to avoid making a mistake, but he was avoiding injury, although probably only with great effort.

    HIS BIG PROBKEM, OF COURSE, WAS THAT GUN.

    Not only did he have to avoid having Trayvon Martin grab it – Martin’s reflexes probably seemed and were faster than his – avoiding that limited his ability to maneuver.

    Then, suddenly, Trayvon Martin pulled himself back a bit to give his next shove more force – and George Zimmerman had a chance to get that gun out and fire it, and put an end to his torture. Because this is legally torture.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  55. I don’t know about Canada, but I’ve read that the rape rates are 2-3 times as high in Britain and Australia as in the US. (One’s twice, the other three times, but I forget which is which.) Knowing that the women are all unarmed looks like a pretty strong incitement to rape in those with an inclination that way.

    This talks about stats in Canada and the UK vs. the US. You may find it interesting. The speaker is Canadian, but was born and raised in Britain.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  56. HIS BIG PROBKEM, OF COURSE, WAS THAT GUN.

    No, his “big problem” was the 17-year-old pinning him to the ground, pounding his head against the pavement.

    But Geraghty likely stumbles from one private-security guarded building to another, continuously in “Condition White”.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  57. You have a text for that, or a summary? Because I don’t watch talking heads – too slow, and I’m not going to turn off my iTunes. In fact, I’m already prejudiced against your argument (whatever it is) by the fact that you sent me to a site whose damned filthy autostart sound cut into Porter Wagoner’s “Sorrow on the Rocks” at just the wrong time. Please don’t do that again.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  58. I don’t, Dr. Weevil, but it’s a really good video on the philosophy of gun ownership with lots cited.

    I’m sure you can google and find text comparisons.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  59. I was going to ask whether you gave the link to support what I said, contradict it, or offer additional information to fill out or complicate the issue. I take it that the answer is ‘c’? I’m not going to follow the link: I learn far more from a text I can read at my own pace.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  60. Did Eric Holder actually say “unnecessary”? Since the jury agreed with self-defense, can he say that without liability?

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  61. Comment by Steve57 (996952) — 7/15/2013 @ 12:10 pm

    The affidavit on the ABC site is one of those scanned PDF files that you can’t copy.

    You can print it out from here:

    http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/336022/zimmerman-probable-cause-document.pdf

    And also cut and paste it into Microsoft Word.

    But it’s still not text.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  62. I understand your learning preference, Dr. Weevil, and I wish this speaker had put it to writing. But he’s an oral philosopher. The presentation is dynamic, but he DOES have power point bullet points going throughout, so maybe it’s worth checking out?

    And anyway, ‘c’. I agree with you, and this presented more information along those lines.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  63. Stashiu3 – he is a really small man

    JD (b63a52)

  64. I’d bet he drives a small car too. Just sayin’
    ;)

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  65. Oh, you meant Holder? My bad.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  66. But… but… the media told us Barack Obama was the smartest man to ever grace the White House with his presence. Will the bone-headed incompetence ever cease?

    Colonel Haiku (32b8a6)

  67. Will the bone-headed incompetence ever cease?

    January 2017.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  68. I once asked some Occupy kid how he would prove that he was not racist, if someone accused him of racism. Once he understood the question, he paused, paused some more, and said, “That’s a really good question. I’ll have to think about it.”

    “Racist” has become the new “climate change”: a non-falsifiable proposition used to score political points. Pathetic, really.

    bridget (37b281)

  69. Of course there’s no money to be made or political points to be leveraged here. But this is the sort of thing I call truly tragic and that prosecutors should spend time and taxpayer money on:

    A 34 year old Chicago man who has never had a driver’s license was drunk and fleeing from police after shooting his friend in the leg when he crashed into a car being driven by a single mother of five, killing her, a Cook County prosecutor said today in court.

    It really seems like in America a person should be able to go buy skittles go pick up one of her children without being killed.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  70. elissa, this sentence is a classic example of the poor composition that passes for journalism these days.

    Who was driving the car, the shooter, or the guy he shot in the leg?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  71. Mr Crawford wrote:

    HIS BIG PROBKEM, OF COURSE, WAS THAT GUN.

    No, his “big problem” was the 17-year-old pinning him to the ground, pounding his head against the pavement.

    Well, maybe. We can’t know whether, had Mr Zimmerman not been armed, Mr Martin would have kept pummeling him until he was dead — which was what Mr Zimmerman probably feared — or would have backed off after having thrashed Mr Zimmerman a bit more thoroughly.

    I can’t read Mr Zimmerman’s mind, but it must have at least occurred to him ere now that he might have been a lot better off taking a serious beating than he is with the result that obtained. The only point of contention would be whether that beating would have been a bunch more bruises, more lasting injury, or death, and only Mr Zimmerman knows what he now, after the heat of the moment has long passed, thinks would have been the more probable outcome.

    My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that Mr Martin would have stopped at some point further along in the beating he gave Mr Zimmerman. If that’s the case, then yes, Mr Zimmerman’s problem really was the gun.

    The Dana noting uncertainties (3e4784)

  72. His lawyer Mark O’Mara says “prosecuting appropriately – not like what he got – is something he’s very interested in.” I think that’s laudable. Being a good prosecutor, in my view, does help the innocent — as it allows one to refuse to prosecute cases that are being brought because of public pressure. (Until the political system swoops in and gives it to another prosecutor . . . but that’s another matter.)

    It’s no wonder that Mark O’Mara put in a good word for prosecutors. He’s a former prosecutor himself. According to several press reports one of his very close friends is Jeff Ashton, the former Casey Anthony prosecutor.

    I agree that an ethical prosecutor does help the innocent. As Dershowitz is fond of pointing out, at the entrance to the DoJ there’s a motto that says “The Government Wins When Justice is Done.”

    Unfortunately in the current Obamanation “justice” means the same sort of people’s revolutionary justice you’d expect at a show trial during a communist purge.

    Which isn’t hyperbole on my part. That’s exactly what rioters at these anti-GZ eruptions have been demanding:

    http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Protests-in-S-F-Oakland-over-Zimmerman-verdict-4665088.php

    Protesters listened to speeches and carried signs with such messages as “We are all Trayvon Martin” and “Zimmerman: the people say guilty.”

    Not surprisingly many of these “no justice, no peace” extortionists at these riots are open communists and socialists. Now they’re just shopping for a Revolutionary Tribunal to carry out their will and it looks like Holder’s DoJ is more than willing to assist.

    But back to the subject of ethical prosecutors, let’s touch on a couple of obvious miscreants who are not. I’m curious how Angela Corey’s office and BDLR in particular gets away with this:

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-03-28/news/os-zimmerman-sanction-response-20130328_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-bernie-de-la-rionda

    Zimmerman prosecutor: O’Mara is a grandstander guilty of ‘craven conduct’
    Bernie de la Rionda says his office should not be sanctioned for hiding witness misstatement.
    March 28, 2013|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

    In a sarcastic, insult-laden pleading, the lead prosecutor in the George Zimmerman case on Thursday called defense attorney Mark O’Mara a “craven” duplicitous grandstander who “courts anything resembling a microphone or camera.”

    He also suggested that O’Mara was either unethical or does not know the meaning of one of the most common words in a defense attorney’s vocabulary: exculpatory, an adjective used to describe a piece of evidence that tends to prove a suspect’s innocence.

    Bernie de la Rionda’s pleading came three days after O’Mara asked Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson to fine de la Rionda an unspecified amount, accusing him of hiding a key piece of information for seven months: the fact that his most important witness had lied under oath in April.

    In his response today, de la Rionda admitted that he’d failed to disclose that until three weeks ago but said O’Mara hasn’t shown any actual damage and thus, his office should be off the hook.

    WTFO? Impeaching Rachel Jeantel’s testimony was vital to the defense. Then there’s this whopper.

    De la Rionda also pointed out that O’Mara has made misstatements, including when he told a judge that Zimmerman and his wife were indigent.

    O’Mara told the judge Zimmerman and his wife were indigent because at the time to the best of his knowledge that was true. As soon as Zimmerman told O’Mara about the legal defense fund, O’Mara told the judge. O’Mara didn’t hide anything.

    BDLR not only hid information he knew about for months, information that was entirely under his control and he knew of, but admitted to doing so.

    The two aren’t remotely comparable.

    How is this not a gross violation of prosecutorial ethics? Not just the fact that Angela Corey’s office knowingly hid the evidence that their star witness lied under oath, but then that they turned around and falsely accused O’Mara of equal dishonesty.

    Steve57 (996952)

  73. Dana, since the State would not allow TM’s prior history to be put into evidence, we have no idea what that history shows as per any predilection towards violence, and how far he would be inclined to take it.
    All we have is this angelic 12-year old in a gray hoodie who just wanted his tea & Skittles.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  74. My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that if TM didn’t stop beating GZ even when a neighbor (Good) came out and told him to and told him he was calling 911 – and he didn’t – then he very probably had no intention of stopping until GZ was visibly dead or he heard approaching sirens and saw flashing lights.

    And I know for a fact that even one more blow of skull to concrete could easily have been fatal: such blows often are. So no, GZ’s problem was not the gun: it is very likely the only thing that saved him from death or permanent brain damage. It was only his and TM’s bad luck that made his single shot fatal.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  75. ” HIS BIG PROBLEM, OF COURSE, WAS THAT GUN. ”

    Comment by Rob Crawford (c55962) — 7/15/2013 @ 12:29 pm

    No, his “big problem” was the 17-year-old pinning him to the ground,

    No, that was his small problem. His BIG problem was the gun, because he could get ahold of it and
    kill him, and that’s what George Zimmerman’s brother, Robert, said that Trayvon Martin said he was going to do, (he says GZ was worried about the gun all the time, and trying to hide it from TM, and then it was exposed, and TM saw it and said that now he – GZ – was going to die)

    Although I don’t know if George Zimmerman is on record anywhere as saying that about the gun. The jury heard a claim that GZ had told a friend that TM had actually grabbed the gun.

    pounding his head against the pavement.

    I don’t think that agrees with the physical evidence. His head was pounded maybe once – after that GZ got them off the sidewalk, although maybe it could be TM was trying to get back there.

    This is one of those things that everybody gets wrong. Also GZ did not say the word “punks – he said “colts” – and maybe that means something in Sanford.

    His head getting pounded into the sidewalk was earlier – they had moved onto the grass. GZ maybe kept saying that, but that was at the beginning.

    And I don’t think his head even got pounded much, if at all, into the grass because 1) he was able to slow the speed of contact with the ground 2) he was able to get his shoulders to hit the ground and that prevented his head from hitting the ground and 3) he lifted his head up a little.

    Had his head been repeatedly pounded into the ground, he’d have been much more badly injured. So he was managing. He was not getting knocked out, although continuing to avoid that was not guaranteed, and he was probably worried about his ability to hold out..

    His BIG problem was his gun.

    But Geraghty likely stumbles from one private-security guarded building to another, continuously in “Condition White”.

    I am not sure what he claims is GZ’s bad judgement.

    The encounter really wasn’t.

    No, his “big problem” was the 17-year-old pinning him to the ground, pounding his head against the pavement.

    But Geraghty likely stumbles from one private-security guarded building to another, continuously in “Condition White”.

    Comment by Rob Crawford (c55962) — 7/15/2013 @ 12:29 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  76. Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/15/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that if TM didn’t stop beating GZ even when a neighbor (Good) came out and told him to and told him he was calling 911

    These were two separate announcements, apparently, and we don’t know what exactly he said and if he said it loud enough for anyone to hear. It could be that TM didn’t take it seriously or thought he still had some time. It should also have given GZ hope.

    – and he didn’t – then he very probably had no intention of stopping until GZ was visibly dead or he heard approaching sirens and saw flashing lights.

    Could be he thought he could wait for the sirens.

    And I know for a fact that even one more blow of skull to concrete could easily have been fatal: such blows often are.

    But they weren’t on concrete! In that respect Good’s testimony is wrong. I think they were a good distance away. More than a body length.

    I recall this from a map that I saw. There was only one square of pavement. Otherwise there was grass and earth.

    This maybe can be checked out a little bit better.

    So no, GZ’s problem was not the gun: it is very likely the only thing that saved him from death or permanent brain damage. It was only his and TM’s bad luck that made his single shot fatal.

    The fight went on for more than 40 seconds, and George Zimmerman was probably on the bottom (or at most on the side) all the time. They couldn’t have been on concrete all that time.

    It was likely fatal because Travon Martin was so close and on top of him. It went right into his heart.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  77. I just wonder who the “Colts” are.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  78. Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/15/2013 @ 1:34 pm

    Dana, since the State would not allow TM’s prior history to be put into evidence, we have no idea what that history shows as per any predilection towards violence, and how far he would be inclined to take it.

    The jury didn’t, but we (and the news media) do have some idea. We could know more, but we have some idea.

    He was even criticized by a girl for fighting so much.

    Now it could be that all his fighting was only in the context of gang activity.

    WE ALSO DON’T KNOW, OF COURSE, WHAT HE REALLY SAID IN HIS LAST TELEPHONE CALL.

    But I bet Benjamin Crump knows.

    All we have is this angelic 12-year old in a gray hoodie who just wanted his tea & Skittles.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  79. All we have is this angelic 12-year old in a gray hoodie who just wanted his tea & Skittles.

    Complete public relations by Parks and Crump. Re; skittles they were also looking for something plausible besides the truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  80. Sammy – You were doing very well last week, but you have relocated again into Finkelman Fabrications land.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  81. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/15/2013 @ 1:51 pm

    You were doing very well last week, but you have relocated again into Finkelman Fabrications land.

    I just have to get the original data again.

    GZ clearly did not get pounded more than once or twice. They were on the grass, not pavement. The word is definitely “Colts” and not “punks”

    Robert Zimmerman said George was worried about the gun and that TM had threatened to kill him when he saw it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  82. Comment by The Dana noting uncertainties (3e4784) — 7/15/2013 @ 1:29 pm

    The uncertainties you note are called “reasonable doubt.” And they are sufficient to justify self-defense.

    I need to point out it’s absolutely preposterous to rely on the notion that even if TM intended to stop before killing GZ he would not know how much more damage he could inflict before he reached that point. Even if he stopped at the single punch that knocked GZ down that could have been enough to kill someone. People who didn’t intend to kill people have nonetheless killed them with one or two blows.

    http://www.kmov.com/news/local/St-Louis-man-gets-life-sentence-in-fatal-knockout-game-attack-205791291.html

    I mean, really? You can’t possibly think it’s prudent to rely on someone like TM’s judgement and conclude “I can’t defend myself effectively, but I don’t think this upstanding young man who has just assaulted me without provacation and is now doing an MMA-style ground and pound intends to kill me so I’ll just wait for him to stop.”

    I can’t help contrast this with the case of Cristian Fernandez, 12, who Angela Corey charged with 1st degree murder as an adult. He pushed his 2 y.o. brother into a bookcase or some other piece of furniture hard enough to fracture his skull. His mother returned and didn’t take the kid to the hospital for six hours. Corey successfully imprisoned her for child abuse, but I don’t know if it’s for the delay in seeking treatment, leaving the younger brother with the 12 y.o., or a combination of the two. I do know this; an individual can suffer severe, permanent brain injury or even a fatal brain injury and the severity is not apparent until hours later. That’s why DiMaio testified the Sanford PD needed to take Zimmerman to a hospital, not the police station, no matter how OK GZ insisted he was.

    As a matter of fact, GZ may still have suffered permanent damage that hasn’t been detected yet and may not for years.

    Just how much of a beating TM intended to serve up to GZ is entirely beside the point.

    Steve57 (996952)

  83. Obama is nothing less than an intentional, craven liar. There: I’ve said. Come get me, NSA!

    Gun violence has actually plummeted in recent years. But what does that matter to the feral political animal known as Barack Obama? And his helpers in the media. They are without conscience.

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-07/politics/39076469_1_gun-show-gun-violence-gun-rights-groups

    Patricia (be0117)

  84. my whole life I never given mouth to mouth resuscitation to a black transvestite

    this is not however going on the bucket list

    I’m just not that guy

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  85. My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that Mr Martin would have stopped at some point further along in the beating he gave Mr Zimmerman.

    Wow. I hope you never have to put YOUR life on the line with that quality of guess.

    It’s immaterial, anyway. Six reasonable people agreed with Zimmerman that he was reasonable in being in fear of grievous bodily harm or death.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  86. I just wonder who the “Colts” are.

    Are you brain damaged?

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  87. I recall this from a map that I saw. There was only one square of pavement. Otherwise there was grass and earth.

    Again, are you brain damaged?

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  88. my whole life I never given mouth to mouth resuscitation to a black transvestite

    Life is just one long series of lost opportunities, ain’t that the truth.

    nk (875f57)

  89. i might get a chinchilla

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  90. Life is just one long series of lost opportunities, ain’t that the truth.
    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/15/2013 @ 2:05 pm

    Thread winner!

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  91. Mr. Feets – Musics for you. You can skip the ad.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KaWSOlASWc

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. The Joe G page includes a missive written in street slang.

    “I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book,” the 2005 Myspace page said. “Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!”

    Another line suggested his friends went to jail and did not rat him out. “They do a year and dont ever open thier [sic] mouth to get my ass pinched.”

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/01/2778234/myspace-page-is-latest-salvo-in.html#storylink=cpy

    Hezbollahboyee (b5f718)

  93. hah that is one of my favorite musics!

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  94. Third New York Times article>

    News Analysis In Zimmerman Case, Self-Defense Was Hard to Topple

    This again has it that it remained unclear when George Zimmerman drew his gun!!

    Who is saying this was at any time except right at the end?

    The shot came, and there was no more fighting. so said the neighbors.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  95. Saying Senate Is ‘Broken,’ Reid Vows to Limit Filibuster

    This may have something to do with the next Attorney General.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  96. Hah, whose isn’t it? Great choice for the thread too, daleyrocks.

    nk (875f57)

  97. Mr. Feets – I have gotten slapped for attempting to give mouth to mouth resuscitation to wimmins who did not actually need it, but that’s another story, and so far no transvestites if I’m careful about checking the plumbing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  98. Thanks, nk.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. Sammy – Where did they keep the young horses at Twin Lakes, the ones that were always escaping or getting away, the colts?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. transvestites give me the willies

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  101. Mr. Feets – The talented ones are good to keep around. Everybody likes a talented tranny.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  102. Is that a pun, HF? Most everyone with a willy ‘gets the willies’ when he finds the girl he just met has one too.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  103. What was this, like the 359th time to do the right thing that Teh Won effed up? Gettin’ to be a habit…

    Colonel Haiku (fc8d37)

  104. I’m kind of late on the thread but what the hey.
    The later stage of the altercation may have been on grass. That’s a little better for the victim than concrete, but only a little. Blows to the face can cause head injury even on a softer surface like grass.
    George Zimmerman has said that he didn’t resort to his gun until he thought that Martin was about to resort to Zimmerman’s gun. If true — I realize the statement is kind of self-serving — it reflects remarkable restraint on Zimmerman’s part.
    Such restraint was not required under the circumstances, since Martin was inflicting significant injury and intended to inflict more.
    BTW, at what stage was Zimmerman supposed to have checked Martin’s ID for date of birth? Or to have frisked him for a gun?

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  105. Plus, they’re not usually borrowing my clothes to wear so I got no truck with trannies.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. I get really tired of rearguing points that have already been argued, especially if they I thought they were settled. Someone (SF?) already claimed in a previous thread that most of the beating was on the grass, and I pointed out that I would have expected to see grass and mud embedded in the wounds on the back of GZ’s head if the fight started on concrete and ended on grass. Why did we see only blood? I don’t recall getting any counterargument. Do we really have to argue it all over again?

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  107. happyfeet, me thinks you protesth too much

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  108. “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon”, famously said the President.

    Unfortunately, no one can ask Trayvon if a detached, obfuscating, prevaricator who leaves his family at the slightest provocation (or without, it seems) as he jets to and fro, and plays golf unendingly, but can’t make a “hoop” or peg a throw to the plate, is someone who resembles his father.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  109. Dr. Weevil, we are not allowed to question SF’s wisdom, accuracy, or credibility; for he is as a god.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  110. Wha hoppen? Dis usta be a classy joint.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  111. MT Geoff,

    Good stuff, friend. If we were to listen to all of the spokespeople in the Trayvon Martin Fan Club, George was obligated to call a timeout, check Trayvon’s ID, consult with an ACLU lawyer, consult with the NAACP, and then he was supposed to say, ‘ok, time-in,’ where he would resume his position of disadvantage beneath Trayvon so he could continue to take a pounding from the Eagle Scout and Honor Roll student.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  112. ES nailed it.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  113. C’mon everybody, Trayvon had a constitutional right to punch and beat George Zimmerman and GZ violated that right by defending himself with his legally carried concealed weapon. What’s so hard to understand?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  114. daleyrocks,

    He’s only allowed to carry his gun, not use it. If Trayvon went for it, he was only trying to ensure Zimmerman was in compliance with the law. George obviously unlawfully resisted being beaten and possibly shot with his own weapon.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  115. Stashiu3 – I think you’re starting to understand. Baby steps.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  116. I don’t think there is any dispute over the fact that as a black citizen of the United States Trayvon Martin had the constitutional right to racially profile and criminally assault creepy ass cracker George Zimmerman.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  117. Absolutely, it says so in the foreward of the New Black Panthers Party Handbook.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  118. Here’s a wild and crazy prediction for ya:

    Obama will present the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Trayvon Martin (posthumously, of course).

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  119. Anybody see this?

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/prosecutors-contradict-zimmermans-story-in-abc-interview-claim-he-lacked-courage-to-take-the-stand/

    The prosecutors in the George Zimmerman case spoke to ABC News Monday morning, continuing to doubt Zimmerman’s version of the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, and openly speculating about his reasons for not taking the stand.

    “I prayed that he would have the courage to take the stand,” lead prosecuting attorney Bernie de la Rionda said. “But as we all well know, he made the decision not to.”

    ABC’s Matt Gutman asked if de la Rionda thought Zimmerman was “scared” to testify.

    “The proof is in the pudding,” de la Rionda said. “Did he take the stand?”

    State attorney Angela Corey, who initially charged Zimmerman with second degree murder after the state of Florida took over the case from Sanford last spring, was not persuaded by Zimmerman’s account of the incident.

    “Nobody just gets a gun out and shoots, even trained police officers,” Corey said. “When they’re on the ground, with a suspect on top of them, they can’t get their guns out that quickly.”

    I can’t believe this crap is ethical.

    1) Exercising a constitutional right not to testify shows “lack of courage?” Why should Zimmerman have given these serial liars more to lie about, especially when they played all of Zimmerman’s testimony that he needed in his own voice to get his story across.
    2) They’re testifying in the court of public opinion that not even a trained police officer could have gotten his sidearm out and shot that quickly. To echo O’Mara, where was their use of force expert. Oh, that’s right; they didn’t have one. They lacked the “courage” to try to get someone to say that in court. The proof, as BDLR says, is in the pudding. They were too scared to put anyone on the stand to try to get away with that in court.

    And then (3):

    Gutman asked about defense attorney Mark O’Mara’s statement on Sunday that Zimmerman would have his gun returned and would have “even more reason now” to carry it on person.

    “He better be careful,” Guy warned. “It better be the right circumstances.”

    Having put a target on GZ’s back, it sounds like they’re threatening GZ with another malicious prosecution if he dares defend his life again.

    Has anyone ever seen a bunch of losers prosecutors behave like this?

    Steve57 (996952)

  120. Howdy Dr Weevil
    Your point about grass and dirt on G. Zimmerman’s head is well taken. It’s possible that such things were cleaned off by the paramedics when they did a somewhat cursory exam, though. I have understood that there were grass stains on Mr. Zimmerman’s jacket — but a lot can happen in forty violent seconds.
    Mr. Zimmerman should have asked to be transported to the hospital and it would have been well if the responders or Mr. Zimmerman had taken a lot of pictures right away.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  121. The jury did not “approve” of anything, they just didn’t have enough evidence to convict. Which indicates from their question to the judge that they felt he did commit a crime but it wasn’t proven.

    The self serving book deals will not shed any light on it.

    Since they have not given any statements on it – I’d hold on making wide bold statements like he could sue – I cannot see Zimmerman being a victim as NBC would not only relish it they will have crack attorneys who will delay this for years and then when the fear of retaliation subsides, then Zimmerman is going to be asked questions like: If all your neighbors knew you why didn’t you cry out to them instead of just yelling help - why didn’t you scream “its George help me!” Or scream for individuals to call the police?

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  122. Comment by MT Geoff (a67ef4) — 7/15/2013 @ 3:51 pm

    Woulda, coulds, shoulda.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  123. EPWJ,

    How does their question infer they believed he committed a crime ? How does a person this ?
    Did they telephone you with this revelation ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  124. I left out a word…”How does a person intuit this ?”

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  125. …coulda…

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  126. It is over. EPWJ was wrong wrong wrong again. Shocking. Even more shocking is that he is acting the fool, again. Maybe it isn’t an act?

    JD (5b9410)

  127. Very, very, rarely do people respond to a general shout for help unless they are in direct visual contact….and even then, the Kitty Genovese Syndrome sets in.

    GZ did what he had to do to end the threat to his person, and possibly his life.

    These things happen every day in America, but Al Sharpton isn’t on the corner to gin up a lynch mob in 99.9% of them.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  128. Why didnt he scream out for Superman’s name?

    Is he really questioning GZ’s choice of words while getting his nose broken and head bashed on the concrete?

    JD (5b9410)

  129. EPWJ just knows things. He’s eerie that way. He’s usually wrong, but it’s still eerie.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  130. After the verdict, Zimmerman attorney Mark O’Mara was asked how the defense felt when they heard the jury question about manslaughter. I’m paraphrasing but he basically said they expected the jury to ask a question because the manslaughter instruction included a subsection (I think it concerned justifiable homicide) that did not apply in this case and, in fact, was inconsistent with the self-defense instruction. For that reason, O’Mara said the defense objected to including this subsection in the Jury Charge but the Judge overruled the defense’s objection.

    I think O’Mara even said he thought he knew which juror it was that wanted to ask the question.

    Thus, rather than an indication that the jury was considering a manslaughter verdict, O’Mara considered the jury’s question about manslaughter an indication that the defense had accurately read the jurors and how they would respond to the argument and the Charge. If so, that speaks well of both the attorneys and the jury consultant, Robert Hischhorn.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. To summarize my last comment, the defense thought the jury was smart enough to realize that the subsections in the manslaughter instruction did not make sense, and they would ask for a clarification. And they did.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  132. “The proof is in the pudding,” de la Rionda said. “Did he take the stand?”
    No need after the craptastic job you did in prosecuting the case.

    Gazzer (3e0b5a)

  133. DRJ, if he’s right that is both fascinating and frankly pretty amazing.

    Dustin (a1ff10)

  134. GZ might consider agreeing to testify under oath, right after Barack Obama, Eric Holder, Benjamin Crump, Jeff Tripplett, Nelson Bonaparte, Pam Bondi, Angela Corey, Bernie de la Rionda, John Guy, Richard Mantei, and Judge Debra Nelson complete their questioning by Don West and Mark O’Mara on TV under oath and subject to prosecution under the perjury statutes.

    Of course, I can’t speak for GZ, but I’d sure like to hear the excuses why the aforenamed co-conspirators run for cover and loudly proclaim why they couldn’t possibly make themselves available to be held accountable for their criminal misconduct.

    ropelight (10beb0)

  135. Zimmerman didn’t take the stand because the state entered his videotaped (and very reasonable and consistent) statements into evidence on their direct case in chief. For an ADA that claimed to have tried hundreds of cases and numerous murder trials Bernie de la Rionda continues to show hismelfeither to be a fool or he is misleading the MFM in the aftermath of his loss. In fairness this was from the beginning an open and shut case of self defense. It could not have ended in conviction as long as the jurors followed the law and listened to the evidence. Perhaps next time he is assigned to such an impossible task Bernie de la Rionda should present such a debacle to a grand jury instead . There was no tactical benefit at all for Zimmerman to take the stand, and his affirmative defense of self defense was already before the jury thanks to the prosecution’s foolishness.

    Bugg (b32862)

  136. Mr Feet wrote:

    my whole life I never given mouth to mouth resuscitation to a black transvestite

    this is not however going on the bucket list

    I’m just not that guy

    Racist heteronormative homophobe! I denounce you

    The multicultural Dana (af9ec3)

  137. DRJ @134 I’m far more impressed by the intelligence and seriously they dedicated themselves to perform their sworn duty than I am with this prosecution team. By a country mile.

    And I’m impressed with how much more courage they showed in rendering decisions that they had to know would be unpopular with a large part of the public than this judge. Who should have granted the defense motion for a directed verdict.

    Steve57 (996952)

  138. Mr Crawford wrote:

    My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that Mr Martin would have stopped at some point further along in the beating he gave Mr Zimmerman.

    Wow. I hope you never have to put YOUR life on the line with that quality of guess.

    Well, actually, I do, every day, because I have chosen to exercise my Second Amendment rights in the negative; I neither carry nor own a firearm.

    The Dana exercising his rights (af9ec3)

  139. “The proof is in the pudding,” de la Rionda said. “Did he take the stand?”
    No need after the craptastic job you did in prosecuting the case.

    Comment by Gazzer (3e0b5a) — 7/15/2013 @ 4:21 pm

    I saw that video too. It’s very annoying. George actually cooperated a ton with the police with a lot of interviews. As a result, there is basically no way George, who doesn’t seem sophisticated to me, would have held up under days of cross examination from these overaggressive prosecutors.

    The attitude from BDLR et al was always that it was on George to prove his case, so it’s no surprise they think there’s some ‘proof’ in George not making the absolutely insane decision to take the stand after the prosecution completely failed to prove their case.

    Dustin (a1ff10)

  140. Mr 57 quoted:

    ABC’s Matt Gutman asked if de la Rionda thought Zimmerman was “scared” to testify.

    “The proof is in the pudding,” de la Rionda said. “Did he take the stand?”

    Translation: Mr Zimmerman and his attorneys realized that Mr de la Rionda had nothing, and that the prosecution had utterly failed to make its case, and they were right!

    There’s no loser quite like a sore loser.

    The Dana laughing out loud at the sore losers (af9ec3)

  141. de la Rionda is beyond sore loser, he’s brazenly lying about his own sorry performance and lack of ethics.

    SPQR (768505)

  142. i feel badly for the duck

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  143. Dana did you read about the open sores on her mouth?

    open sores are a big deal-breaker for me in all kinds of scenarios

    it’s how i roll

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  144. Comment by The Dana exercising his rights (af9ec3) — 7/15/2013 @ 4:34 pm

    Ah, a Free Rider!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  145. “The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.”

    - Barack Obama

    There is nothing remotely objectionable about that statement. That statement the appropriate statement to issue at this juncture. I am no fan of Obama, but there is nothing wrong with that statement at all – except maybe implying that we need to bestow some honor on Trayvon Martin.

    Leviticus (2c236c)

  146. Well it was a justifiable self defense, not gun violence that the daily murders in Chicago, or the
    stray shot that killed someone on their front porch in Miami, do they go after them with the same relish, I proffer that they do not.

    narciso (3fec35)

  147. The proof is in the pudding. Zimmerman won, the prosecution lost, or, Zimmerman’s strategy succeeded, the prosecution’s failed. Sore loser? Just plain loser. Hah, hah, hah, loser!

    nk from the InYourFace School of Law (875f57)

  148. I think it is objectionable to suggest that we should honor TM. I think it is objectionable that be should try to lump this in with random gun violence, and use it as an opportunity to push his gun policies. And I think it is objectionable for him to call for calm and reasonableness after having stoked the fire previously.

    JD (5b9410)

  149. All of the people involved can’t afford to have too much attention paid to the facts of the case.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  150. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis.

    Leviticus, if a shooting can be justified as self-defense, as this one was, then to lump it into the amorphous category of “gun violence” is as objectionable as when the gun control zealots did the same with the police shootings Klebold, Harris or Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

    These are examples of guns stopping violence, whether in the hands of a citizen or the police.

    Steve57 (996952)

  151. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities.

    When he quits demo using those that disagree with him, I will believe this to be sincere.

    JD (5b9410)

  152. What’s wrong with that statement is that it does nothing to disillusion people about what happened. It also implies that there’s some rational reason for violence.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  153. And then ther’s this site:

    http://trayvonmartin.com/

    Oh, look:

    We are about to release something we have about George Zimmerman That is really going to freak you out. Even George doesn’t know what we have about him.

    I suppose, if this is not made up, it’s his sexual abuse of a cousin of his when they were both very young, continuing until she was 16.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  154. The best defense is a good offense, right?

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  155. Offense is the weak position with the positive objective, defense is the strong position with the negative objective.

    nk von clausewitz (875f57)

  156. Mr. President, George Zimmerman was acquitted. Therefore, his case has nothing to do with “the tide of gun violence.” …

    I don’t agree with this. It was still gun violence and someone is still dead. It is reasonable to think about ways of minimizing such deaths (just as it is reasonable to think about ways of minimizing auto accident deaths) even in cases where no one is criminally culpable.

    Of course one way of minimizing such deaths would be encourage people in Martin’s position who have arrived at their home to go inside and call the police instead of reversing course and attempting to handle the situation themselves.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  157. Gun violence were the hundreds, thousands, maimed and murdered by the weapons, Fast and Furious delivered to the Sinaloa cartel and the Zetas, funny how he’s not interested in that,

    narciso (3fec35)

  158. James – Yes, plus another three dead in Chicago over the weekend. Where is the outrage?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  159. 159. I don’t agree with this. It was still gun violence and someone is still dead. It is reasonable to think about ways of minimizing such deaths (just as it is reasonable to think about ways of minimizing auto accident deaths) even in cases where no one is criminally culpable.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/15/2013 @ 5:34 pm

    Then let’s disarm the police. If it will save just one life in this senseless wave of gun violence it’s our moral duty.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  160. There is no such thing as gun violence. There is only the lawful or unlawful use of deadly force. The term “gun violence” is a fabrication in order to smear all uses of a gun as inherently evil.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  161. It’s the formulation, he and Ayers probably came up with at the Joyce Foundation,

    narciso (3fec35)

  162. Mr Feet added:

    Dana did you read about the open sores on her mouth?

    open sores are a big deal-breaker for me in all kinds of scenarios

    it’s how i roll

    Oh, so you are a racist heteronormative sicknessophobe homophobe! I double-dog denounce you! :lol:

    The very multicultural Dana (af9ec3)

  163. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    The best defense is a good offense, right?

    After the point has been scored, it’s too late to play defense.

    The sports fan Dana (af9ec3)

  164. I think it is objectionable to suggest that we should honor TM. I think it is objectionable that be should try to lump this in with random gun violence, and use it as an opportunity to push his gun policies. And I think it is objectionable for him to call for calm and reasonableness after having stoked the fire previously.

    Comment by JD (5b9410)

    I always appreciate witnessing an older gentleman unabashedly sharing his wisdom with misguided yute.

    Colonel Haiku (5c894b)

  165. 162

    Then let’s disarm the police. If it will save just one life in this senseless wave of gun violence it’s our moral duty.

    That makes about as much sense as banning cars. Doesn’t mean there aren’t things that can be done to reduce police shootings. See this 2011 NYT article :

    The 33 instances in which an officer intentionally shot at a suspect last year represented a 30 percent decrease from the year before. But it reflected a far greater drop since the department began keeping these records in 1971, a year in which the police in New York City fatally shot 93 people and injured 221 others.

    Last year, the police shot and killed 8 people and injured 16.

    Do you think that drop was a bad thing?

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  166. 0bama, Holder – and liberals in general – tip-toe around the 800 lb. gorilla in the room… dysfunctional America… a major Democrat demographic that can be counted on to submit to mendacious manipulation and being milked of votes each and every election. The very height of cynicism.

    Colonel Haiku (5c894b)

  167. What I find amazing is that Angela Corey, who continually referred to Martin as a “child”, is famous for charging 12-year-old Cristian Fernandez as an adult in a murder case a few years back. I bet she didn’t refer to Fernandez as a “child” in any of her pleadings.

    Another point…many people have expressed outrage and sought to link the case of Marissa Alexander to George Zimmerman’s case. Alexander fired several warning shots at her estranged husband when he came to her home violating a restraining order. She invoked a SYG defense which failed and was sentenced to 20 years. The prosecutor in the Alexander case…Angela Corey.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey

    Calfed (5b899d)

  168. “Two systems went against George Zimmerman that he can’t understand: you guys, the media. He was like a patient in an operating table where a mad scientists were committing experiments on him and he had no anesthesia. He didn’t know why he was turned into this monster, but quite honestly you guys had a lot to do with it. You just did. Because you took a story that was fed to you and you ran with it, and you ran right over him. And that was horrid to him… Then he comes into a system that he trusts — let’s not forget, six voluntary statements, voluntary surrender — and he believes in a system that he really wanted to be a part of, right? And then he gets prosecutors that charge him with a crime that they could never, ever, prove. They didn’t lose evidence along the way, right. So I don’t think anyone in this room would argue they had evidence of second degree murder. This ‘in your heart’ stuff…. That’s not what we’re supposed to do. So those two systems failed him.”

    - Zimmerman Defense Attorney Mark O’Mara

    Well said, sir!

    Colonel Haiku (5c894b)

  169. Greetings:

    As I have agreed with “the process is the punishment” assessment since the beginning of this persecution, US Attorney General Eric Holder, and Eric is an honorable man, may well prefer to leave the civil rights Sword of Damocles hanging over Mr. Zimmerman’s legal head for as long as possible.

    More than a year and a half have passed since the incident occurred, and I’m supposed to believe that the US DoJ hasn’t completed its investigation in all that time. This isn’t the Kennedy assassination they’re dealing with here.

    11B40 (4c6133)

  170. In New Mexico, it’s illegal to think outside narrow lines.

    Colonel Haiku (5c894b)

  171. maybe one rainy summer night foxy knoxy will get a hankering for tea n skittles and put on her favorite hoodie and mosey on down to the pik n pak, where she will have an encounter with a Miscreant

    one of them does not make it home that night (the Miscreant)

    ohnoes!

    looks like Foxy Knoxy has some splainins to do!

    can you say ratings bonanza?

    I know you can

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  172. @173

    I think this is likely. This is totally political and there is nothing in Holder’s interests in announcing a quick decision.

    My guess is that the investigation will remain open for a “decent interval” and prosecution will be quietly declined…on a Friday afternoon, no doubt.

    Calfed (5b899d)

  173. Of course one way of minimizing such deaths would be encourage people in Martin’s position who have arrived at their home to go inside and call the police instead of reversing course and attempting to handle the situation themselves.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/15/2013 @ 5:34 pm

    Another way of minimizing such deaths would be to try new approaches to reducing the number of young Black males that turn into violent thugs.

    iconotastic (be42a3)

  174. I wouldn’t really know in a vacuum, Mr. Shearer. I certainly can’t tell from that article what measures anyone has taken to reduce “gun violence.”

    “These figures are a testament to police officers’ restraint, diligence, and honorable performance of duty,” the report says. “But they also show that the drastic reduction in violent crime over the past decade has meant that criminals and police enter into conflict less often.”

    Are the police doing something differently to cause the drop. Are the criminals doing something differently to avoid conflict with the police. Or are the courts simply keeping violent felons off the streets longer?

    Which by the way can lead to very humorous exchanges with liberals who demand to know why if violent crime is dropping are we locking more people up than ever. As if there’s not a correlation.

    In any case that article doesn’t say what anyone has done to reduce “gun violence.” What I do know is that when the gun grabbers lump these police shootings into the undifferentiated category of “gun violence” along with criminal acts in order to plus-up the numbers they are deliberately misinforming the public and more importantly legislators. They have to somehow make it appear that more people owning more guns somehow produces more “gun violence.”

    But as they NYT article helpfully points out violent crime has dropped dramatically since we’ve liberalized concealed carry laws across the country. The numbers don’t support their wild claims that more guns = more violence. So they’ve got to sex up the numbers somehow.

    So they invent a bogus category of “gun violence” and lump criminals shot by the cops, like Tamerlan Tsarnaev in it as a victim of “gun violence.” (Which is doubly laughable because while shot he probably wouldn’t have been killed until his own bro’ ran him over with a stolen SUV). This is like the categories of “assault weapon” or “jobs saved or created.” Once invented, you can pretty much put anything into it to serve a political purpose.

    Do you think it’s appropriate to lump legitimate gun usage in with illegitimate gun usage in order to restrict gun ownership and lawful carry? That’s the purpose of inventing the term “gun violence,” and question that I’d like you to answer.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  175. I would wager a cold water brewed coffee that not a one of the protesters today missed work.

    mg (31009b)

  176. “Stomping all over your d_ck”

    That’s the spirit!

    Zogby has Dog falling amongst blacks, small wonder.

    Long about October, certainly by Xmas, the suck will be evident to all(Angela gets re-elected 9/22).

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  177. Barack obama
    abdicated leadership
    going thru motions

    Colonel Haiku (5c894b)

  178. More than a year and a half have passed since the incident occurred, and I’m supposed to believe that the US DoJ hasn’t completed its investigation in all that time

    Didnt the FBI finish their inquiry a long time ago?

    JD (b63a52)

  179. I saw a video w/ Corey today (7/15 — at least i think it was today — it was after the verdict perhaps 7/14?) calling GZ a murderer. Can she be sued for this? The guy GZ was found innocent. Can she still label him a murderer?

    jb (2dd1b8)

  180. it is clear to me that most of those fine up-standing citizens demanding GZ’s blood, would have done exactly what GZ did to TM … but with much less provocation. and if they did it, it would have been passed over by the media … as usual.

    quasimodo (6d3411)

  181. Did Corey really call GZ a murderer on CNN?

    JD (b63a52)

  182. 171. This didn’t become clear till i looked that up. I see there

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey

    Marissa Alexander didn’t kill, or even injure, anyone. She just used a gun, unjustifiably, in a very threatening and reckless manner.

    She had had a restraining order against her ex husband. One day, thinking he was not there, she returned to their old home to collect clothes and some possessions. But he was there, with their children. They argued. After the argument became heated, Marissa Alexander returned to her car, picked up her firearm, and went back!

    Then she threatened him and fired a shot into the wall.

    She was charged with reckless endangerment of children and threatening with a deadly weapon.

    She was offered a 3 year sentence and later a probational sentence with time served, but she chose to attempt a defense of not guilty, based on Stand Your Ground, which didn’t apply.

    Then she got 20 years in jail – 10 years for for committing a crime while carrying a firearm,
    and another 10 years for discharging a firearm during a crime.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  183. 185. Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/15/2013 @ 7:27 pm

    Did Corey really call GZ a murderer on CNN?

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1307/15/cnr.09.html

    PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: …..In the aftermath of the not-guilty verdict, the prosecutors, they are speaking out. Bernie Del La Rionda, the lead prosecutor in the case and his boss, Angela Corey, they sat down with HLN’s Vinnie Politan. Vinnie asked them a crucial question about the defendant and the victim. And you got to hear what their answers were.

    BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

    VINNIE POLITAN, CORRESPONDENT, HLN: One word to describe George Zimmerman.

    ANGELA COREY, ATTORNEY, STATE OF FLORIDA: Murderer.

    POLITAN: George Zimmerman.

    BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, STATE OF FLORIDA: Lucky.

    POLITAN: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

    DE LA RIONDA: I don’t know there’s one word that can describe a victim.

    POLITAN: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

    COREY: Prey, P R E Y.

    (END VIDEOTAPE)

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  184. 171.What I find amazing is that Angela Corey, who continually referred to Martin as a “child”, is famous for charging 12-year-old Cristian Fernandez as an adult in a murder case a few years back. I bet she didn’t refer to Fernandez as a “child” in any of her pleadings.

    Comment by Calfed (5b899d) — 7/15/2013 @ 6:12 pm

    She overcharged Cristian Fernandez, as she did Zimmerman, for considerations entirely unrelated to the crime or the defendant:

    http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium-opinion/2013-02-12/story/right-outcome-cristian-fernandez-case

    At age 12, Fernandez was charged with first-degree murder even though the state attorney did not demonstrate either his intent to kill or that his actions were the proximate direct cause of his 2-year-old half-brother’s death in March 2011.

    Testimony showed that the mother took more than eight hours to get the injured child, David Galarraga, to the hospital where he died two days later. Biannela Susana was charged with aggravated manslaughter by culpable negligence.

    …State Attorney Angela Corey has insisted that her intent all along was not to send Fernandez to adult prison for life but that she sought a middle ground that would punish Fernandez and provide opportunities for rehabilitation.

    “Some question why we did not leave this case in juvenile court and in the juvenile system,” Corey said in a press conference last week.

    “The juvenile system is inadequate to handle a case of this magnitude. It always has been, and until there is reform, it always will be.”

    So Corey’s logic seemed to be that since the state couldn’t properly handle the case of this child in the juvenile system, then the solution was to charge him with first-degree murder and put him on a path toward decades if not life in the adult system where rehabilitation is nil.

    …It is notable that this reasonable outcome was not in sight until the pro bono lawyers stepped in at the urging of Fernandez’s guardian, who moved to replace the public defender.

    She has a track record of grossly overcharging defendants with crimes that she can not remotely prove in order to, apparently, force the defendant to plead to a lesser charge. Which is unethical but it looks like a compliant judicial system lets her get away with it and inexperienced public defenders are incapable of dealing with it.

    That’s one of the comments I recall made by criminal defense attorneys during the Zimmerman case. That BDLR, Guy, and Mantei looked like they’re used to dealing with public defenders and not attorneys of O’Mara’s caliber. Who as it turns out along with West completely outclassed them.

    As I watched BDLR try to relitigate the Zimmerman trial in the press by among other things appealing to his track record, he’s something like 78-2 in winning murder convictions, it struck me that whatever system they have in Florida it can’t be called a justice system. This raging mediocrity expected to win with no evidence and his own witnesses favoring the defendant. Like all those other gimmes he’s won over the years by simply showing up, I suppose.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  185. Then there’s this case;

    In 2009, Ronald Thompson, a 65-year old army veteran fired two shots into the ground to scare off teenagers who were demanding entry into his friend’s house in Keystone Heights, Florida.[32] Corey prosecuted Thompson for aggravated assault, and after he refused a plea agreement with a three-year prison sentence, won a conviction that would carry a mandatory 20-year sentence under Florida’s 10-20-Life statute. The trial judge, Fourth Circuit Judge John Skinner called the 20-year sentence “a crime in itself” and declared the 10-20-Life statute unconstitutional. Skinner gave Thompson three years instead.[32]

    narciso (3fec35)

  186. The way you describe it, Sammy, the case seems righteous. I had originally believed that it was Marissa’s home. The sentence is harsh, but that’s the legislature not Corey. I don’t know how much duty a prosecutor has to undercharge in order to avoid harsh mandatory minimums.

    nk von clausewitz (875f57)

  187. Florida justice is kind of like what you would get if you put a fascist whore in charge of your prosecutings I think

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  188. I thought that was what Joe Biden suggested people do with their guns.

    IANAL, but that does not seem right for a prosecutor to be out calling the acquitted a murderer and suggesting he hunted TM.

    Is that sanctionable?

    JD (b63a52)

  189. 183.I saw a video w/ Corey today (7/15 — at least i think it was today — it was after the verdict perhaps 7/14?) calling GZ a murderer. Can she be sued for this? The guy GZ was found innocent. Can she still label him a murderer?

    Comment by jb (2dd1b8) — 7/15/2013 @ 6:56 pm

    Dershowitz doesn’t think so.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newswidget/Dershowitz-zimmerman-defamation/2013/07/15/id/515150?promo_code=F43B-1&utm_source=Moon_Battery&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1

    “Clearly he is somebody who was acquitted by a jury on the grounds of self-defense and she shouldn’t be going around second-guessing the jury verdict and calling him a murderer,” the veteran Harvard Law professor said.

    “He probably has a defamation action against her. She has no immunity as a prosecutor for appearing on television and if I were his lawyer I would think seriously about bringing a defamation lawsuit against her.”

    On an interview taped after Zimmerman’s acquittal Saturday and airing Monday night on CNN’s Headline News program “HLN After Dark,” Corey is asked for a word that comes to mind for the former neighborhood-watch volunteer.

    “Murderer,” she says after several seconds of silence.

    …Other noted legal experts also expressed their disgust at Cory’s remark, agreeing with Dershowitz that it could spur legal action by Zimmerman.

    “That is shockingly inappropriate, unethical conduct by a prosecutor. And frankly, she might very well be sued for it — and properly so,” noted criminal attorney and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan told Steve Malzberg.

    “Prosecutors get immunity when they’re acting within the scope of their employment as prosecutors. But appearing on a TV show doing a word association game is not going to give her immunity. Now that’s really stunning.”

    Former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy said the “murderer” crack was “disgraceful … a reprehensible thing to do.”

    Callan added he was surprised at the “sour grapes press conference” Florida prosecutors held after the acquittal.

    Corey is uniting attorneys of all political stripes in the desire to see their profession cleansed of her presence.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  190. Very, very, rarely do people respond to a general shout for help unless they are in direct visual contact….and even then, the Kitty Genovese Syndrome sets in. “askeptic”

    Sheep Dogs do… as do Oath Keepers. it’s in our DNA.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  191. Well the trial judge in at least one of these cases, disagreed, so much for Slo Jo’s advice.

    narciso (3fec35)

  192. he’s something like 78-2 in winning murder convictions

    No f in way! He’s counting plea bargains as convictions. Guaranteed. His verdict stats should be at around 50-50.

    nk (875f57)

  193. Comment by nk von clausewitz (875f57) — 7/15/2013 @ 7:42 pm

    I had originally believed that it was Marissa’s home.

    It had originally been her home, and apparently she left without taking all her things. But she wasn’t living there.

    The sentence is harsh, but that’s the legislature not Corey. I don’t know how much duty a prosecutor has to undercharge in order to avoid harsh mandatory minimums.

    This is acase where they threw the book at her for going to trial. Twenty years for turning doen time served.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  194. There is nothing remotely objectionable about that statement. That statement the appropriate statement to issue at this juncture. I am no fan of Obama, but there is nothing wrong with that statement at all – except maybe implying that we need to bestow some honor on Trayvon Martin.

    If there was nothing truly remotely objectionable about his statement, than you wouldn’t have to mention “except maybe implying…” Your comment overall makes me think of the phrase “and other than THAT, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?”

    There is nothing “implying” whatsoever about Obama’s sentiments regarding Martin. I bet if Obama thought he could get away with it, he’d set up a shrine in the White House to Trayvon, candles ablaze and flowers aplenty. That, of course, would be well after he and Michelle are damn sure their precious children don’t have to attend a school where most of the student body looks like Obama’s son if he had a son.

    Mark (98b17a)

  195. I believe that too, and I have fought and won trial penalty sentences but only when there was a co-defendant who got a greatly disparate break from a plea bargain. It’s the system.

    nk (875f57)

  196. 196. he’s something like 78-2 in winning murder convictions

    No f in way! He’s counting plea bargains as convictions. Guaranteed. His verdict stats should be at around 50-50.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/15/2013 @ 7:47 pm

    I’m going by memory of what he said at the post-trial press conference. That out of 80 murder trials this is the second loss.

    Speaking of what these scumbags are saying, from Drudge:

    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/prosecutors-weigh-in-on-george-zimmerman-verdict/-/1637132/20987802/-/8y7xhn/-/index.html

    I can not summarize the numerous and verifiable lies so I won’t start. They’re incredible. Fantastic. In the actual sense of the words. These people are unhinged from reality.

    The results of their words in reality:

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-monday-20130715,0,5135359.story

    Witness claims youths yelled ‘this is for Trayvon’ in beating

    Police still investigating claim in beating of Hispanic man

    …In a post that drew nearly 50 comments on Facebook, real estate agent Christina Dudley said she was walking to her car just before 9 p.m. when she saw several young black males and two black females chasing a 37-year-old Hispanic man west on North Linwood Avenue past East Fairmont Avenue.

    “One of the boys had a handgun out and it was pointed at the back of him,” Dudley said in an interview.

    They caught up to the man at the corner of Fairmount and N. Streeper Street, and the male with the gun beat the victim with what appeared to be his gun while others kicked and stomped him, Dudley said.

    “They were just yelling and calling him names as they ran after him, but once they were hitting him and after that they started yelling, “This is for Trayvon, [expletive],” said Dudley, who heard the chant repeated multiple times.

    …Using a translator, police spoke to the victim, who knows some English, according to the police report. The victim told officers that he was standing in the intersection of Fairmont and N. Potomac Street when a group of five black males first approached him.

    He described all of the males as between 16 and 18 and told police a 6-foot suspect with a black “stretchy” shirt and mohawk told him, “What’s up, [expletive].” When the victim raised his phone to call 911, the suspect raised his shirt and flashed a silver handgun in his waistband.

    The victim turned and ran before he was caught in the 2800 block of Fairmont and was beaten, police said. He sustained abrasions to his elbows and forearms but refused medical attention.

    I somehow suspect that he sustained more than abrasions to his elbows and forearms but no doubt the police are planning on playing this down.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  197. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken

    In my limited use of English as my first language, the impression I am given by that statement is that the jury was wrong but we need to respect their verdict anyway.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  198. 178

    Do you think it’s appropriate to lump legitimate gun usage in with illegitimate gun usage in order to restrict gun ownership and lawful carry? That’s the purpose of inventing the term “gun violence,” and question that I’d like you to answer.

    I don’t think there is a clear line between legitimate and illegitimate gun usage. Total gun deaths is reasonably well-defined (and would also include suicide and accidents). So I don’t have a big problem with looking at that number. Others are of course free to point out the number includes things besides murders and suggest other numbers are more appropriate. Encouraging people to carry guns will lead to more deaths like Martin’s. You may or may not think this is a reasonable tradeoff but it is a tradeoff.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  199. O’Mara is pissed. It’s a very badly written Reuters story so you’d never know O’Mara is PO’d about the prosecutors publicly defaming his client, but he is pissed!

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-omara-idUSBRE96F04R20130716

    (Reuters) – George Zimmerman’s chief defense lawyer on Monday called Florida prosecutors “a disgrace to my profession” for holding back evidence for months and pledged a new effort to impose sanctions against them.

    …”This is not acceptable, and is not going to be tolerated in any case that I’m involved in,” O’Mara told Reuters in New York on Monday, accusing special prosecutor Angela Corey and lead trial attorney Bernie de la Rionda of Brady violations.

    “They are a disgrace to my profession,” O’Mara said, referring specifically to de la Rionda and Corey. “They said my client was ‘lucky’ to have been acquitted. Really?”

    Journalism school grads; what can you say?

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  200. A reasonable statement would have noted the tragedy of the loss of life and that after extensive investigation and a jury trial it was decided that the evidence indicated that Zimmerman was within his rights to use the means of self defense that was at his disposal.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  201. Will the EPA, IRS, FBI, and National Dog Catchers of America be investigating O’Mara?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  202. 204. I don’t think there is a clear line between legitimate and illegitimate gun usage. Total gun deaths is reasonably well-defined (and would also include suicide and accidents). So I don’t have a big problem with looking at that number. Others are of course free to point out the number includes things besides murders and suggest other numbers are more appropriate. Encouraging people to carry guns will lead to more deaths like Martin’s. You may or may not think this is a reasonable tradeoff but it is a tradeoff.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/15/2013 @ 8:23 pm

    Answer enough. All guns are evil.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  203. Or rather, all gun usage is evil.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  204. A reasonable statement would have noted the tragedy of the loss of life and that after extensive investigation and a jury trial it was decided that the evidence indicated that Zimmerman was within his rights to use the means of self defense that was at his disposal.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/15/2013 @ 8:25 pm

    That would be the statement by Bizarro Obama, MD.

    nk (875f57)

  205. Their partisans will simply refuse to believe it or acknowledge it. And also, racist!

    True — but as I understand it, the evidentiary rules for a civil proceeding are much more lax.

    I suspect that kind of thing certainly CAN make it to civil trial and exposure, which will very much color the appearance of the kind of punkass bastard he really was.

    I strongly suspect that the Martin family will “choose the higher road” and put it all behind them.

    I’m less sure about Eric Holder’s more aptly named DOI.

    IGotBupkis, "Faeces Evenio, Mr. Holder?" (a2f645)

  206. I am not happy that I live in a city where the mayor says the verdict was a mistake.

    It is like the mayor gave permission for non-cracker people to resent us crackers.

    I’m worried my daughter is going to have unpleasant interactions with some people who are Obama supporters.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  207. 209

    209.Or rather, all gun usage is evil.

    No more so than all car usage. Guns like cars are dangerous so it is reasonable for society to place restrictions on them. Naturally people will disagree on exactly where the line should be drawn.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  208. Lumping self defense and justified police actions under the general rubric of gun violence is just kind of douchey.

    JD (b63a52)

  209. Encouraging people to carry guns will lead to more deaths like Martin’s.

    Unproven hypothesis. It is equally valid to say that encouraging more people to carry guns will lead to fewer deaths like Martin’s, because people like Martin will be less likely to attack, as his target is more likely to be armed.

    Chuck Bartowski (8dd23e)

  210. I don’t think there is a clear line between legitimate and illegitimate gun usage.

    WTF

    JD (b63a52)

  211. It’s the ‘Green Eggs and Ham’ strategy, basically no firearm use by private citizens, ‘bitter clinger’
    military and/or law enforcement is acceptable.

    narciso (3fec35)

  212. It would be real justice if he sued for defamation and was awarded enough to complete law school.

    dunce (15d7dc)

  213. a lot of people don’t seem to be remembering in their heads that this verdict is a Happy Occasion what says sometimes – just sometimes – justice will be done even in fascist food stamp failmerica

    hold onto that everybody

    hold onto it tight

    like a chinchilla

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  214. James – Most jurisdictions place restrictions on the use of guns, just like they do for cars and impose penalties for their misuse. What exactly is your complaint?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. btw nobody up at my office has ever said one word about trayvon zimmerman

    not one word

    i think this means the trayzon zimmerman saga is largely a cable news viewer thang what doesn’t resonate very much past that demographic

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  216. *trayvon* zimmerman saga I mean

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  217. Mr. Feets – It’s such a cable news only thing President Asterisk decided he needed to make a statement about it so you must be right.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  218. omg Mr. daley food stamp is an MSNBC whore everyone knows that

    he has their propaganda sluts over to the white house for teddy grahams and milk all the effing time

    but still

    the last 4 posts here at the pontificatings were trayvon zimmerman centric but the one before that was about this plane that crashed in San Francisco and then the news made a funnie about asian names

    but then the one before that was about trayvon zimmerman

    so that is 80% if the content set what you are analyzing is limited to the last 5 posts

    but in my real life trayvon zimmerman doesn’t really actually exist

    there’s no evidence anyways

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  219. 212.I am not happy that I live in a city where the mayor says the verdict was a mistake.

    It is like the mayor gave permission for non-cracker people to resent us crackers.

    I’m worried my daughter is going to have unpleasant interactions with some people who are Obama supporters.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/15/2013 @ 8:37 pm

    That’s exactly what your mayor is doing. These people who insist that TM was shot for being black and the jury was wrong to acquit GZ are inciting riots. And they know perfectly well what they’re doing.

    If they can’t get their precious gun control laws passed and guy the concept of self-defense one way by exploiting Sandy Hook then they’ll set loose the mob to achieve their goals by another.

    They can issue all the statements they want afterward, but when mayors like Jean Quan of Oakland cede control of the streets to violent protesters by ordering the police to stand down (OK, I don’t know for a fact that she did so in this case but she has in the past and it’s clearly because…) it means mayors like Quan approve of what the crowd was doing (…in past Occupy Oakland riots her husband and daughter joined in).

    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=9172087

    Crowds turned violent in Oakland late Sunday night. We’re received reports that rocks and bottles were thrown at police and that reporters were attacked by protesters.

    A reporter with our media partner the Bay Area News Group tweeted that she and her photographer were attacked by the crowd. She also tweeted that demonstrators attacked a TV cameraman.

    For more than three hours, protesters had complete control of 14th and Broadway near Oakland City Hall, preventing any cars from getting through.

    At about 8:30 p.m., police opened the intersection to traffic. But it quickly deteriorated when demonstrators surrounded frightened drivers who found themselves trapped. The crowd forced them to turn around.

    Oakland police officers that had been near the corner retreated, leaving the helpless drivers without police protection. It’s unclear who gave that command

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  220. Well no one watches MSNBC, CNN has a slightly less selective audience, you can’t avoid him in the newspapers, on the alphabet networks, which is bad enough, but they’re always 210% wrong on the particulars.

    narciso (3fec35)

  221. *…and guy gut the concept of self-defense …*

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  222. CNN is tedious

    that’s the only word for CNN

    if cable news were a flax muffin CNN would have 370% more ruffage

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  223. that’s not a real statistic I just made it up

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  224. 220.James – Most jurisdictions place restrictions on the use of guns, just like they do for cars and impose penalties for their misuse. What exactly is your complaint?

    My complaint is that I don’t think people are only allowed to worry about gun deaths for which somebody is criminally culpable. For my part I think stand your ground laws are stupid but other than that I don’t have a big problem with the status quo. It is not an issue I care a lot about.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  225. once gave mouth to mouth resuscitation to a black transvestite

    the man is a freaking saint

    he is a better man than I will ever be

    how is he not on a postage stamp?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  226. Well those gurlz on the jury sure ended up doing a good job. Smart and quick and brave and decisive they were. I seem to recall reading some initial concern about that. Like maybe they’d be too emotional or maybe want to talk about it too much. Maybe it was somewhere else I read that, though.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  227. Shearer, and I’m sure you can’t actually articulate why stand your ground laws are stupid … since you seem to have utterly failed to notice unjust prosecutions of valid self defense cases that …. oh, might have been in the news …

    SPQR (768505)

  228. Is that like Olestra, because that is some nasty stuff,

    yes we won a round, like that tasty cheese quesadilla, but they insist on putting mayonnaise on it.

    narciso (3fec35)

  229. I don’t see this posted here, but I’m on my iPad and do not know how to search the comments.

    For those interested, Legal Insurrection has posted videos of Anderson Cooper interviewing a juror and Piers Morgan interviewing Jeantel. Jeantel is just as pleasant as you would expect and vaguely threatens West at some point.

    Riots in LA have started..I thought this was all peaceful according to Sharpton. Pathetic.

    Ratbeach (f5aad4)

  230. There seems to be a misunderstanding of the scope of so-called “stand your ground” laws. They are better called “No duty to retreat from where you have a right to be if 1) you are not the initial aggressor and 2) if you use deadly force in order to prevent death or great bodily harm or the commission of a felony” laws. What’s wrong with that? Bad marketing? A supplement food stamps with crimes welfare policy?

    nk (875f57)

  231. taco bell has a new cantina double-steak quesadilla and you have to get it to understand how silly it is

    omg taco bell you are so not who you think you are

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  232. Quote Barack Obama: “But we are a nation of laws…(even though I myself step all over the Constitution.But, hey! I am black, and I am ‘El Presidente’, so what the hell, I feel entitled to do so!)

    Althor (b81d49)

  233. food stamps don’t need supplements they’re meaty and delicious all by themselves Mr. nk

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  234. What’s wrong with it pikachu,

    narciso (3fec35)

  235. 230. For my part I think stand your ground laws are stupid but other than that I don’t have a big problem with the status quo. It is not an issue I care a lot about.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/15/2013 @ 9:33 pm

    Since it’s not an issue you care about then which way do you think they are stupid. What the laws actually provide for or as they commonly misrepresented? They’re called “make my day” laws by the distortionists.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  236. Jeantel is just as pleasant as you would expect

    Since Obama did say that if he had a son, that son would look like Trayvon Martin, it’s only fair he should now announce to the public that if he had a daughter (or another daughter to his two) she’d look (and sound) like Rachel Jeantel.

    RACHEL JEANTEL, FRIEND OF TRAYVON: Well, the jury, they see their facts. My thoughts of the jury, they old, that’s old school people. We in a new school, our generation, my generation. So –

    We in a whole heap of caca, and America is currently entering its “new school” (or banana-republic) phase of history.

    Mark (98b17a)

  237. let’s just say it’s over-dressed for what it is Mr. narciso

    it really is comedic and you should experience it I’m not kidding

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  238. Alright the Wendy’s pretzel burger, you have a problem with that?

    narciso (3fec35)

  239. 235. For those interested, Legal Insurrection has posted videos of Anderson Cooper interviewing a juror and Piers Morgan interviewing Jeantel. Jeantel is just as pleasant as you would expect and vaguely threatens West at some point.

    Riots in LA have started..I thought this was all peaceful according to Sharpton. Pathetic.

    Comment by Ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/15/2013 @ 9:45 pm

    It’s too bad for Jeantel that she was on Piers Morgan. If she appeared at 3:00am on a public access cable channel in Yellowknife, NT, Canada, more people would have seen her.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  240. That is the like the award winning although ‘more selective’ Newsroom, it’s so good no one admits to have seen it,

    narciso (3fec35)

  241. i’m now on a quest for a wendy’s pretzelburger Mr. narciso

    just not this week cause this week i have a Regimen

    next week though I’ll do the pretzelburger plus also the tres leches cake what was supposed to be a this week thing

    I’m excited!

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  242. Have those mostly peaceful protesters in LA now stormed a Walmart?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  243. that will throw out your regimen for sure, you can have one of both.

    Yes, Daley ‘they are looting the foodking’

    narciso (3fec35)

  244. if Los Angeles has protesters – IF – it’s only in that other Los Angeles which is trashy and ghetto and icky at the best of times

    nobody goes there

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  245. Mr. Feets – Do they still have Food 4 Free stores in LA?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  246. When they say South LA, what are they talking about?

    narciso (3fec35)

  247. I never been – you mean the Food 4 Less, yes?

    I get fliers in “the mail” which means there’s one near-ish here but I never seen it

    it’s owned by Ralph’s/Kroger which means it’s a union whore enterprise and my new year’s resolution was to cut out shopping at those places

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  248. When they say South LA, what are they talking about?

    i think it means east of Long Beach

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  249. “Banana Republic”? Isn’t that racist?

    You are implying that since Obama, Holder, Jared, and other blacks are now running the country, and monkeys are fond of bananas (not to mention Michelle’s obsession with forcing everyone to eat healthy), that these people are turning our country into a Banana Republic. That is outrageous!

    What Obama and all these people want to do with their “Hope & Change” is to turn this country into “Chimp Eden”…LOL! :p

    Politically Incorrect Humor (b81d49)

  250. oh. actually it means North of Long Beach

    I’m sorry I just have very limited geography of this place

    mostly I just don’t want to die here

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  251. I’m a wait til next year to book the whole inquiry into why my shoulder is broke and my left arm can only move in a limited number of ways thing

    I seriously doubt there’s anything they can do

    but I can use up time and resources in obamacare year one, oh yes I can

    si yo puede

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  252. A sidenote regarding the following report.

    latimes.com: People protesting George Zimmerman’s acquittal marched along Crenshaw Boulevard on Monday night, stomping on cars, chasing bystanders and storming a Wal-Mart.

    Several protesters made their way into the Wal-Mart as guards scrambled to close security gates. A short while later, Los Angeles Police Department officers wearing helmets and carrying batons swarmed the store as others marched through the parking lot.

    The store in question is located in a part of Los Angeles that originally was a predominantly white upper-income area that, particularly due to the Watts riots of 1965, quickly became predominantly black, and has remained mostly black for over 45 years.

    The area to the west of the Walmart still remains rather affluent and was even featured on a BET (ie, Black Entertainment Television) show (“Baldwin Hills”) that could be described as a black version of all the ridiculous reality shows that profile spoiled upper-income youth.

    I recall a writer (who was black) for the LA Times several years ago penning an article about the Crenshaw/Baldwin Hills section of LA, describing it as a very well-located community, convenient to many other parts of town—which it is. She claimed the area was becoming more integrated, which I found interesting and promising. Then I looked at US census figures and not only was the area not more integrated than before, it appeared to be even more segregated or even more predominantly black (over 95%) than ever before.

    Another sad irony in 21st century America: It has been said that if a person is visiting any urban US location and isn’t too familiar with the lay of the land, and if he or she comes across a street named in honor of Martin Luther King Jr, that it’s best to be cautious and perhaps for safety reasons to even avoid spending time in that part of town.

    Modern-day liberalism has brought forth the best in humanity.

    Mark (98b17a)

  253. @ 148
    “The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.”

    - Barack Obama

    There is nothing remotely objectionable about that statement. That statement the appropriate statement to issue at this juncture. I am no fan of Obama, but there is nothing wrong with that statement at all – except maybe implying that we need to bestow some honor on Trayvon Martin.

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/15/2013 @ 5:04 pm

    He does not imply that we should honor Trayvon Martin, he explicitly states it: “That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin”.

    The President’s conclusionary sentence is despicable.

    Our President has no idea how to unite and lead, but he is excellent at division and fiat.

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/07/15/this-is-for-trayvon-gang-of-black-men-chase-beat-hispanic-man-in-baltimore/

    /sarc
    Perhaps we should also have a National Thug Week as a way to honor all of our fallen thugs — especially those who were killed by citizens with the gall to defend themselves.
    /sarc

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  254. That’s how Michelle’s food deserts get created, people. You kill off the desire of stores to be open in your rioty area. This is not a forward thinking plan.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  255. she’s such a stupid skeezer I don’t know why people listen to her elissa

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  256. When they say South LA, what are they talking about?

    It’s what used to be known as South-Central. For whatever reason, the “community activists” decided they didn’t like the connotation of South-Central, and that changing it to South Los Angeles would somehow bring about a fresh start.

    JVW (23867e)

  257. Ima little disappointed to hear about the pretzel burger, Mr Feets. But I’m done nagging you about carbs. I just am done.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  258. THIS week is all about carb deprivation

    next week i get to eat though

    I’m doing so good you’d put a scratch n sniff sticker (strawberry) and an A+++ on my forehead in red pen if you seen me I swear to pikachu heaven

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  259. “South LA” ought to be, IMHO, everything south of Washington Blvd, west of Main St., east of Crenshaw, and north of the 91.

    it’s vague, but so is the definition.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  260. (elissa part of my job where i make the monies I give to the mastercard people involves a lot of qsr marketing stuff … Wendy’s is off the beaten path though in real life – the only one i know of in my whole LA world is the one at the Empire Center – but that’s very feasible for lunch if I make it a quest and plus I can probably work in extra shoppings while I’m there)

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  261. That’s the craziest low carbadoodle lifestyle I’ve ever heard of. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  262. if you low carb it all the time you get cat-breath

    that’s not the dream

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  263. speaking of cat breath:

    Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer sent a letter Monday to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder supporting the Justice Department decision to review the case to determine whether Martin’s civil rights were violated.

    “I respect the fact that the jury has spoken … but I don’t think this should be the last word,” Boxer wrote in the letter.

    “Trayvon Martin’s death was a tragedy and has raised many sensitive and important issues,” she wrote. “We should explore every avenue in an effort to ensure that something like this never happens again.”

    elissa (a5cf21)

  264. jeebus this country is scary what am I a freaking egyptian

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  265. I can google a map up for the Boxer hooch but in the meantime please to indulge me in the assertion that what happens in “Florida” has de minimis impact on what happens in California

    we have our own Disneyland even plus an economy (and a cost of living) about 11 times more bigger

    we’re totally immune to Florida

    (unlike whooping cough thanks to Jenny McCarthy’s whore ass)

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  266. That’s Senator Boxer to you, mister. She worked hard for that title you know.

    elissa (a5cf21)

  267. oops my bad

    underneath this sophisticated veneer I’m but a rural south texan pikachu of poor breeding a slapdash education and uncertain prospects you know

    rather like Kate Middleton except for the uncertain prospects part

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  268. “Trayvon Martin’s death was a tragedy and has raised many sensitive and important issues,” she wrote. “We should explore every avenue in an effort to ensure that something like this never happens again.”

    When found with stolen jewelry and burglar tools, lock them up they should! Problem solved, it is!

    Yoda (c1890a)

  269. So WalMart was looted in LA. The premier cost cutters in retail. So long DC, so long any urban ghetto.

    The poor already pay the highest retail prices, because they are the highest retail risk. Just wait until the competition for their EBT dolla’ is decimated, halved, wiped out.

    The riots are only the first step in Succubus’ motivation of social disintegration, his foot soldiers. When the money runs out, as it must, we’ve been prepared for martial law.

    Consumer credit has been flat or falling since 2008. As banks fail it will disappear altogether. 80% of US public firms, stock issuers, have guided lower on their earnings this season, are missing their forecast profit predictions.

    Federal revenues, but for Fed direct payments, will be down in 2014 as corporate earnings and private wages will both be down sharply.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  270. elissa wrote:

    That’s Senator Boxer to you, mister. She worked hard for that title you know.

    Am I allowed to refer to her as Senatrix Boxer?

    The sexist pig Dana (3e4784)

  271. Juror B37 was interviewed on CBS and other places. She said they cried, and also hat the initial vote was 3 for NOT GUILTY.

    She had earlier planned to write a book, but has now backed out.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/07/16/juror-drops-plan-to-write-book-about-zimmerman-trial/

    She was described in a news article as follows:

    http://www.local10.com/news/guide-george-zimmerman-trial-jurors-profiles/-/1717324/20659720/-/u3loj0z/-/index.html

    B-37 is a white woman who is an animal lover. She is married to an attorney who deals with space law. She works for a Chiropractor, and said that newspapers were for her parrot cage. “It’s a lot better use,” she said. “I just don’t think they’re truthful.” The mother of two adult daughters also said she took care of three dogs, four cats and had recently rescued a lizard. She described protests in Sanford as “rioting” and Trayvon as “a boy of color.”

    Her daughters are 24 and 27. She used to have a concealed-weapons permit, but let it lapse but her husband still has one. On CBS she said everyone has a right to carry a gun. She gets newspapers but says they are used in the parrot’s cage, not even read and the main way she gets the news is from the TODAY show.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  272. According to CBS, about 100 people broke away from the crowd in Los Angeles (and decided to steal and destroy)

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  273. There must be a pretty important truth being hidden for all these efforts to be maintained to defend the lies connected with this case.

    Sammy Finkelman (f2d620)

  274. newspapers were for her parrot cage. “It’s a lot better use,” she said. “I just don’t think they’re truthful.”

    a kindred spirit to our kind host.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  275. Keep digging, Sammy

    JD (b63a52)

  276. 271. As scary as it has become, is becoming and will be, the World Government Fascists are about run out of time.

    Here in rural Minnesotastan, no one, even dyed-in-the-wool Obots, believe for a moment Z was not innocent, and Trayvon anything but roadkill.

    The wheels, doors, axles, paint, etc., all come off within a year.

    Hard to imagine sitting in a sun drenched lake in the middle of July, but the storm is just over the horizon.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  277. The aftermath of this sadly confirms we are splitting into 2 cultures, may be even 2 countries. A middle and working class group of mostly but not all white people on one side, and liberals elites and African-AMercians and other minorities on the other.We listen to different music, watch differenr TV shows, have radically different views about education, family, work, government, politics, etc. Suspect the only things we really share are the NFL and NBA. The different reactions after the OJ SImpson verdict gave us a glimpse. This shows us the divide is probably permanent.

    Bugg (b32862)

  278. 241

    Since it’s not an issue you care about then which way do you think they are stupid. What the laws actually provide for or as they commonly misrepresented? They’re called “make my day” laws by the distortionists.

    I was under the impression that “make my day” laws are more about shooting burglars which I have less problem with. I think “stand your ground” laws are stupid because they encourage people to get into violent confrontations in which it is unclear who is in the right and which are risky even if you are in the right. When you are driving the law doesn’t allow you to run into someone when you can safely avoid doing so even if they have violated your right of way. I think you should have a similar duty to avoid violent confrontations. This applies to public places like bars, I agree with the traditional rule that you have no duty to retreat from your home.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  279. Smile when you say that, James.

    nk (875f57)

  280. Meaning, I understand what you’re saying.

    Which does not necessarily mean I agree. Laws are generally based on society’s experience and the need for a solution to a perceived concern. Some jurisdiction feel stand your ground laws are necessary, some don’t.

    nk (875f57)

  281. The poor already pay the highest retail prices, because they are the highest retail risk.

    – Whatcha mean, Mr. g?

    Icy (45fe76)

  282. Sometimes, racism is a bugg, not a feature.

    Icy (45fe76)

  283. My Mom passed in her sleep overnight. Thank you for your prayers and good wishes in the other threads. She was 92, a WW2 vet (“and I was NOT in the WAVES, I was in the NAVY!”), and to quote my wife this morning, “You had the best mother.” Yes, I did.

    htom (412a17)

  284. May she rest in peace. Life to you and to all her loved ones, htom.

    nk (875f57)

  285. I’ve seen Jeantel described as … “She’s so marble-mouthed”

    Come on. Jeantel is the Gabby Johnson (of Blazing Saddles fame) of our time.

    Olson Johnson: [after Gabby Johnson's speech] Now who can argue with that? I think we’re all indebted to Gabby Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I’m particulary glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.

    Jeantel: authentic modern-day gibberish

    Neo (d1c681)

  286. So sorry to hear that, htom, prayers.

    narciso (3fec35)

  287. I think “stand your ground” laws are stupid because they encourage people to get into violent confrontations

    That is simply not what they do

    JD (b63a52)

  288. Htom – my heartfelt condolences. Sounds like a helluva woman.

    JD (b63a52)

  289. The poor already pay the highest retail prices, because they are the highest retail risk. Just wait until the competition for their EBT dolla’ is decimated, halved, wiped out.

    Along with my original ignorance about the surprising bigotry of some of the major figureheads of liberal America (that being Woodrow Wilson and, more recently, Franklin Roosevelt, since I previously was aware of Harry Truman’s appalling racism due to David McCullough’s bio on Truman, not to mention reading about Bill Clinton several years ago), I also recall originally (and foolishly) musing that various major retailers were hesitant about catering to neighborhoods of a mostly non-white clientele for mainly cultural/social reasons. IOW, even though I should have known better, I envisioned white executives perhaps shrugging off potential revenue streams because of their bouts with petty intolerance.

    D’oh!

    It never occurred to me that, in fact, having to deal with major shrinkage in inventory — ie, theft, including shoplifting by both customers and employees — by retailers located in areas where most customers are not just both lower income but also black has a way of scaring off many investors from such environments. However, it is interesting that big-box stores like Walmart have been gradually attempting to enter under-served urban communities, apparently partly because the neighborhoods that are the easy pickings have already been picked dry.

    Mark (98b17a)

  290. htom, God bless you and your family.

    Dustin (303dca)

  291. A middle and working class group of mostly but not all white people on one side, and liberals elites and African-AMercians and other minorities on the other.

    But what bridges those two sides together is the two-faced nature of “limousine liberals” (and one doesn’t have to be wealthy or certainly just white to earn that label). I’m referring in particular to people who, because of their political sentiments and behavior on election day, make a big mess of a community (if not society in general) and then when the going gets too tough — due in part to their ideological preferences — they pack their bags and move to greener pastures elsewhere.

    Such people, in effect, are like leeches or parasites. However, if they themselves are stable and talented enough, they do admittedly contribute a bit to the momentum or stabilization of a place. For example, there is the still small percentage of people throughout America who are gentrifying various urban areas. But I say “small percentage” because their numbers really do become quite meager when also factoring in the way that most of them will treat the issue of which schools their children are going to attend.

    Mark (98b17a)

  292. White Supremacy Acquits George Zimmerman
    Aura Bogado on July 14, 2013 – 12:05 AM ET

    (isn’t it cute how liberal rags install programming to prevent you from quoting their tripe without a link back. They genuinely don’t understand that links are currency which is earned by accurate and truthful stories. They think they can mechanically strong arm me into advertizing their odious content. Well their self serving scheme worked today I guess.)

    We have any white supremists here today?
    Maybe not the way to approach this topic.

    Let’s try it in a different direction.

    In my life I’ve never been accosted by gangs of (by gang I mean more than one person acting in league) Mexicans or Latinos or Hispanics or Colombians or Ukranians or Hmongs or Vietnamese or Native Tribes on the street. And not for lack of them being around in sufficient numbers.
    They just don’t operate in that way.

    But on five different occasions I have been accosted on the street by gangs of blacks.
    Not that they necessarily were meaning me harm, they didn’t have murder in their minds otherwise I wouldn’t be here, right?

    But I’m just saying there is a pattern of behavior. It’s a pattern, I am not even allowed to comment on in polite society.

    But I bet your story is similar.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  293. Sorry for your loss Htom.

    Ninety Two. I’ll never see 92. She was born during the Harding Administration. Imagine that. To actually have grown up during the Coolidge Presidency, the high water mark for American prosperity.

    I’m jellous of her on two counts.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  294. pt, for insight into how street gang tactics were initially employed against the managers of government poverty programs, before “Black Leaders” institutionalized and streamlined race-based extortion, see the second part of Tom Wolfe’s 1970 booklet, Radical Chic & Mau Mauing the Flak Catchers.

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  295. ==Am I allowed to refer to her as Senatrix Boxer?==

    You’ll need to take that up with her in person, Dana. But Fair warning, sir. Remember the little lady took great umbrage when a brigadier general being questioned at a senate hearing had the audacity to call her “ma’am”.

    elissa (96b70e)

  296. Shearer, as I thought, you are utterly ignorant of the effect and purpose of “Stand Your Ground” laws.

    SPQR (768505)

  297. htom–it sounds like you come from a very strong and loving family background. All of us that do are the truly lucky ones of this world. May your mom rest in peace.

    elissa (96b70e)

  298. elissa wrote:

    ==Am I allowed to refer to her as Senatrix Boxer?==

    You’ll need to take that up with her in person, Dana. But Fair warning, sir. Remember the little lady took great umbrage when a brigadier general being questioned at a senate hearing had the audacity to call her “ma’am”.

    Ahh, but, unlike said brigadier general, who was using a completely respe4ctful and correct form of address, I am not an employee of the federal government, and the lovely Mrs Boxer cannot somehow punish me. And I am polite enough, simply on my own, not to address her as “you f(ornicating) [vulgar term for the vagina],” despite my somewhat less than lofty opinion of her politics and her opinions.

    The extremely polite Dana (3e4784)

  299. htom,

    So sorry for your loss. Your mother sounds like a delightful person and we will add you and yours to our prayers.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  300. Elissa @ 19:

    Ongoing psychological intimidation which is masked or fronted as something else is a powerful tool when it’s used by people with power and influence, Mike K. The president’s masterful speech yesterday was actually kind of a tell in several respects, wasn’t it?

    Elissa, please point out why you refer to this statement by the President as “telling”:

    “I know this case has elicited strong passions,” the president said. “And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken.”

    Observer (892663)

  301. htom,

    My condolences for your loss. I know these last days have been hard on you and your family but I hope your mom didn’t suffer too much. She sounds like a wonderful person and I know she felt your love and admiration. As a mother myself, that’s the best gift a son can give his mom.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  302. James B. Shearer @ 285:

    This makes a lot of sense:

    I was under the impression that “make my day” laws are more about shooting burglars which I have less problem with. I think “stand your ground” laws are stupid because they encourage people to get into violent confrontations in which it is unclear who is in the right and which are risky even if you are in the right. When you are driving the law doesn’t allow you to run into someone when you can safely avoid doing so even if they have violated your right of way. I think you should have a similar duty to avoid violent confrontations. This applies to public places like bars, I agree with the traditional rule that you have no duty to retreat from your home.

    Zimmerman was empowered to stand his ground because he was in possession of a gun, without which we would not have had a killing.

    Observer (892663)

  303. Zimmerman was empowered to stand his ground because he was in possession of a gun, without which we would not have had a killing.

    Unless you completely discount the possibility of him continuing to be beaten upside the head.

    JD (b63a52)

  304. Zimmerman placed himself in the position of being attacked, which was his first mistake. What did he think he could accomplish which the soon to arrive police could not accomplish? A rational mind was not operating in this instance.

    Observer (892663)

  305. So Zimmerman’s actions mean he essentially asked for that beating, Observer, like a provocatively dressed girl asks to be raped?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  306. Will Saletan has had an awakening. He writes about it in a very good and pretty fair article up at Slate which is also linked at hotair. Ya’ll should read it and seriously think on it. You especially, Observer, who it appears from your comments here are not really very observery at all. There was a confluence of irrational thought, assumptions, testosterone, and adrenaline which came together in a tragedy that night for both men.

    elissa (96b70e)

  307. Zimmerman placed himself in the position of being attacked, which was his first mistake.
    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 9:56 am

    The unspoken assumption in this comment is that Observer does not think you should expect civilized behavior from a black male on the street. Pretty racist actually, although I expect Observer believes most others are racist, not him/her self.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  308. So Zimmerman’s actions mean he essentially asked for that beating, Observer, like a provocatively dressed girl asks to be raped?

    I didn’t say that. Reread my statement.

    Observer (892663)

  309. Something familiar about Observer. Wonder why.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  310. GZ should not have woken up that morning, thus putting himself in the position to be attacked by TM.

    “Observer”s position requires one to believe that attacking GZ was a reasonable and foreseeable result of calling the cops and attempting to ascertain TM’s location.

    JD (b63a52)

  311. Stashiu, shocking, huh?

    JD (b63a52)

  312. Not really. ;)

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  313. I did read your comment several times, Observer, so you need to explain it to me.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  314. Elissa, Wil Saletan summarizes his piece as follows:

    His death wasn’t about race, guns, or your pet issue. It was about misjudgment and overreaction—exactly what we’re doing now to the verdict.

    I disagree. It was about every one of those factors, which is why there is such a focused interest by a huge number of people. I believe we will see this as a landmark case for many decades to come.

    I could go through Mr Saletan’s piece and pick apart many elements of it, which is to say that we who have followed this case have formed conclusions probably more subjectively than objectively. We need more time to digest all this. Saletan has made a valiant effort, but too soon and too confined.

    Observer (892663)

  315. DRJ, you rephrased my statement and changed the meaning, is my point.

    Observer (892663)

  316. 316.

    Zimmerman placed himself in the position of being attacked, which was his first mistake.
    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 9:56 am

    The unspoken assumption in this comment is that Observer does not think you should expect civilized behavior from a black male on the street. Pretty racist actually, although I expect Observer believes most others are racist, not him/her self.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (e7ebd8) — 7/16/2013 @ 10:11 am

    See, if GZ had correctly profiled TM, as Observer is explaining in his dissertation on profiling, then he never would have put himself in the position of being attacked.

    Unfortunately the farthest thing from GZ’s mind was that the suspicious guy who happened to look black would attack him. When the NAACP failed to act when the Sanford PD beat up a homeless black guy he organized protests on his own. He’d go to black neighborhoods and put leaflets on cars, and he’d stand outside black churches and hand out flyers. He never got attacked.

    As Observer is explaining in his dissertation on racial profiling, GZ had a false sense of security.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  317. Observer – Feel free to explain how DRJ changed your meaning.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  318. From Powerline:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/07/stephen-hunter-comments-on-the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-guns.php

    We first got to know Stephen Hunter when he was the Washington Post’s movie critic. He is best known as a successful novelist, and he happens to know a great deal about guns. This morning Stephen sent us his thoughts on the George Zimmerman verdict:

    1.) Profiling. When the president calls for “calm” in the aftermath of the jury speaking, he is profiling. When police departments call in the manpower, put special command units into specific locations, and beef up for potential demonstrations or rioting, they are profiling. When celebs and rap stars use social media to put out irresponsible incantations to bad behavior, they are profiling. They are, in fact, profiling far more invidiously than anything George Zimmerman was accused of.

    Their presumption is that the African-American community is immature, impulsive, prone to violence and incapable of understanding the nuances of the case. More volatile and less rational, this community demands special attention in order to nurse it through an emotional crisis, spare it and us from irreparable damage. It is, in fact, based on an us/them dichotomy.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  319. I disagree. It was about every one of those factors, which is why there is such a focused interest by a huge number of people. I believe we will see this as a landmark case for many decades to come.

    This is an important case for the institutional Left, to be sure. They make their livings off fostering racial divides, facts be damned, and “Observer” and its ilk are intent on helping them out.

    JD (b63a52)

  320. Zimmerman placed himself in the position of being attacked, which was his first mistake.

    Well of course that’s a mistake, but it is not a crime.

    If a woman goes to a party with people she doesn’t know and flirts provocatively with the wrong guy, she may well have made a serious error. But she does not lose her right to self-defense from a rape!

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  321. I just scrolled up and saw your comment, htom. I’m sorry to hear about your mom. My condolences.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  322. Trayvon Martin protesters looting a Walmart? Where is George Zimmerman when you need him… :P

    Althor (b81d49)

  323. Steve57 – One of Obama’s pet projects in the Illinois Senate was trying to get a bill passed to regulate police stops based on community-based racial demographics, or quotas. The police hated the concept because it divorced the source of crime from police activity to prevent or solve crime, but race-based quota policing has become a favorite pleading of the left. It also dovetails into what the Miami school system was doing in suppressing crime statistics, leaving TM to have no criminal record before his attack on GZ.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  324. This is an important case for the institutional Left, to be sure. They make their livings off fostering racial divides, facts be damned, and “Observer” and its ilk are intent on helping them out.

    Yep. Here’s how it was supposed to go down: Zimmerman is convicted of second-degree murder, or at the very least manslaughter. The liberal elite then start their campaign against Stand Your Ground laws and continue their calls for gun control. Meanwhile, the racial grievance industry gets to lecture all of us on how this goes to show that much more needs to be done to protect minority youth, blah, blah, blah. Obama could then position himself as the voice of reason, decrying the violence and racism that still exists while at the same time making white liberals feel good about themselves by acknowledging that progress is being made. The acquittal has really deprived them of an unbelievably great opportunity for moral preening and racial grandstanding. No wonder they are so angry.

    JVW (23867e)

  325. 332- Note to Walmart, by not building those three stores in DC, you’ll be saving yourself the problem of restocking/rebuilding them after the next riot in DC-SE.

    Where is the community leadership on this?
    They screamed for years that there were no “big box retailers/supermarkets” in South-Central, and now – after getting major retailers to finally locate in the area – they are conspicuous by the silence in acquiescing to this mob-ocracy running rampant through the community.
    It would serve them right if Walmart just razed the store and walked away.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  326. The following page (from April 4, 2012) contains a map and a picture of the walkway.

    http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony

    You can see on the map:

    1) the mailboxes

    2) Zimmerman’s truck parked some distance away.

    3) Where Zimmerman may have been at the end of his call (mislabeled as 911)

    4) The site of the confrontation

    5) Brandy Green’s townhouse.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  327. Good Allah, Sammy.

    JD (b63a52)

  328. Where is GZ when you need him? Well in 2010 he was organizing “Justice for Sherman Ware” campaign when no one else would:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/07/zimmerman-initiated-a-justice-for-sherman-ware-campaign/

    The media has tried to serve up an image of Zimmerman as a racist and wannabe cop who had some sort of close relationship with the police department. Now flashback to 2010, the video posted below shows an incident in which a drunk adolescent son of a Sanford police official attacked a homeless black man named Sherman Ware without provocation.

    The Sanford police were sweeping the crime under the rug and very little was done about the incident. Ironically, the NAACP did nothing as well, but it was Zimmerman and his wife who started a “Justice for Sherman Ware” campaign. It was Zimmerman who succeeded in organizing the black community to get results and justice for Sherman Ware. Yet ironically, Sherman Ware’s sister, Tonnetta Foster, was among the NAACP protesters promoting the “racist” meme against Zimmerman. Shame on the NAACP and Tonnetta Foster (of all people).

    The real face of racism is Al Sharpton, the NAACP, and all the other self-proclaimed race leaders. You see, I understand Tonnetta Foster very well. She is a victim of the siege mentality that the race leaders have to maintain to hold onto power. That’s why the less white racism actually being directed at blacks, the more hysterical and shrill the black leadership’s rhetoric becomes. MLK could reason with people of all races and make his case because everyone could see the reality of the situation. Now to hold onto power the race hustlers have to talk about racist code, inaudible “dog whistles,” and the secret yet always encroaching forces of Jim Crow and Slavery. Also, the worse the penalties for treason against the race leaders. Because the black race leaders can only maintain their lucrative grip on power if they can convince Eric Holder’s people that they’re more under siege than ever by forces that in reality don’t exist.

    If blacks in general figure that out then the Al Sharptons are done. So being a race traitor is worse than being a snitch. Just look at the hate directed at people like Clarence Thomas or Alan West.

    Steve57 (8d5173)

  329. Observer, indeed you did not say that. In fact, by the time people get done with your statement, I think we’ll find that you did not say anything at all…

    SPQR (768505)

  330. Observer,

    I did not misunderstand your comment intentionally. My response was based on my understanding of your comment. Please elaborate on your position so I can understand what you meant.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  331. Here’s your comment that I need you to explain, Observer:

    Zimmerman placed himself in the position of being attacked, which was his first mistake. What did he think he could accomplish which the soon to arrive police could not accomplish? A rational mind was not operating in this instance.

    I read that to say:

    1. Zimmerman made a mistake by doing an act that made it possible for him to be attacked. What act are you referring to – that Zimmerman called 911? That he got out of his truck to locate the street name? That he observed Martin while he waited for the police? Something else?

    2. How specifically did one or more these actions “make it possible for [Zimmerman} to be attacked”?

    3. I can imagine some things Zimmerman thought he might accomplish while he waited for the police. Can’t you?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  332. He took an action that “ma(d)e it possible for him to be attacked”?

    So, that excuses TM for beginning the assault?
    Do you say the same thing about rape victims, that if they weren’t there, nothing would have happened?
    Or, that their attire instigated the assault?
    Does the gray matter in your head accomplish anything other than keeping your ears from meeting each other?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  333. What’s the difference between this statement and the one you made above, Observer?

    Martin placed himself in the position of being shot, which was his first mistake. What did he think he could accomplish by confronting Zimmerman instead of calling the police? A rational mind was not operating in this instance.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  334. In essence, Observer, you are saying a bad thing wouldn’t have happened if Zimmerman had acted differently. While that’s true, we don’t always have the benefit of hindsight to guide us. That’s why the law focuses on what a reasonable man would do in a specific situation, not what a reasonable man would do in hindsight.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  335. Am I supposed to always stay in my car while parked in my neighborhood, or only when there is a black guy nearby?

    Pious Agnostic (c45233)

  336. PA, only if you’re alone or with somebody.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  337. Well stated DRJ @ 344.

    And speaking about in hindsight, in reading through several threads here on this topic, I don’t think I am seeing comments which reflect the reactions of African-Americans, specifically African-American males. Perhaps there are none on here. Consequently, I recommend to anyone this short piece published today by Eugene Robinson, Washington Post columnist and father of two sons 24 and 21, here.

    Here are Robinson’s concluding paragraphs in this piece, which cause me to pause and reflect:

    The conversation we need to have is about how black men, even black boys, are denied the right to be young, to be vulnerable, to make mistakes. We need to talk about why, for example, black men are no more likely than white men to smoke marijuana but nearly four times as likely to be arrested for it — and condemned to a dead-end cycle of incarceration and unemployment. I call this racism. What do you call it?

    Trayvon Martin was fighting more than George Zimmerman that night. He was up against prejudices as old as American history, and he never had a chance.

    What is your reaction DRJ et al?

    Observer (892663)

  338. My reaction is more race-baiting by you and Eugene is just SHOCKING

    JD (b63a52)

  339. And speaking about in hindsight, in reading through several threads here on this topic, I don’t think I am seeing comments which reflect the reactions of African-Americans, specifically African-American males.

    “observer” can tell people’s race by reading their comments.

    JD (b63a52)

  340. The Observer wrote:

    Here are Robinson’s concluding paragraphs in this piece, which cause me to pause and reflect:

    The conversation we need to have is about how black men, even black boys, are denied the right to be young, to be vulnerable, to make mistakes. We need to talk about why, for example, black men are no more likely than white men to smoke marijuana but nearly four times as likely to be arrested for it — and condemned to a dead-end cycle of incarceration and unemployment. I call this racism. What do you call it?

    Trayvon Martin was fighting more than George Zimmerman that night. He was up against prejudices as old as American history, and he never had a chance.

    What is your reaction DRJ et al?

    Mr Martin very obviously had a chance, because he had a choice: he could have declined to attack Mr Zimmerman.

    Are blacks arrested at greater rates for drug use than whites? Yup, sure are! Now, does that mean we should arrest fewer blacks for drug crimes, or more whites? Regardless of the answer, getting arrested for drug crimes — other than for the relatively few who are actually innocent — is, again, a choice: they could choose not to use drugs.

    The Reverend Al Sharpton is planning to organize marches, nationwide, to protest the killing of Trayvon Martin, a black male, by George Zimmerman, a white male of partially Hispanic descent. In the meantime, in the City of Brotherly Love, more than 200 young black men will end the year just as dead as Mr Martin, but the Reverend Sharpton doesn’t give a damn, because the vast majority of those 200+ young black male murder victims will have been sent to their eternal reward by other young black males.

    Why is it somehow racism for one white male to kill one black male in circumstances in which self-defense seems to be the most likely reason, but it’s not racism for hundreds of black males to kill other black males, with notice barely taken, not only by whites in society, but by the self-proclaimed black leadership as well?

    The Dana jumping in (3e4784)

  341. It is cute for Eugene Robinson to claim that somehow its only marijuana use that is the significant question of disparate crime rates.

    Non sequitur remains the most popular logical fallacy among the Left.

    SPQR (768505)

  342. Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    A chance to make mistakes?

    Twice during TM’s junior year at the high-school he attended in Miami, he was involved in incidents on campus that, in most places, would have put him “into the system”; yet, remarkably, both incidents were white-washed by the Miami Schools Police Chief – if not specifically for TM but perhaps generically, to diminish any hint of trouble on the school campus by the district, resulting in TM not having a justly deserved arrest record.
    In this case, not holding him to account for his “juvenile misdeeds” ultimately cost him dearly.

    Is this the kind of chance that Robinson, a well known apologist and bleeding-heart, wants?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  343. 352- Link
    spectator.org/blog/2013/07/15/trayvon-crime-school-miami

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  344. Some, like out mayor, ask:
    why did a young black man get shot walking home from the store,
    others ask:
    why did a young black man, or any kind of man-young/old black/white/or in between think he could sucker punch somebody, have him on the ground and beating him “MMA-style”, and think it was no big deal?

    So what if he was armed only with Skittles and iced tea, the 17 yo in El Paso who killed a cop with a surprise attack didn’t even have Skittles and iced tea as weapons…

    People listen to what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  345. Observer, have you commented here recently using a different name? If so, what name?

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  346. == I believe we will see this as a landmark case for many decades to come==

    I’d be quite curious to hear why this–as opposed to any and every other court case involving two people in a tragic situation where one of them dies== is going to be the “landmark”. That’s just silly on its face. The only things truly unique about this case are the outside circumstances and influences which puffed it up beyond all recognition. It was chosen then hyped as the trial of the century by the usual grievance mongers, by a candidate who needed to fire up his base, and by the ratings hungry media.

    elissa (2174a1)

  347. I have another question. Have any of the talking heads in the media–especially any who are of African American descent– bothered to challenge the egregious and callous “Trayvon is Emmett Till” histrionics?

    I’d appreciate seeing any such links or video if they exist

    elissa (2174a1)

  348. Patterico, in response to Observer’s observation I’m thinking of sending Thomas Sowell an email inviting him to comment here if it’s OK with you. He may be too busy or he may have the time and inclination, I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I assume you’d welcome him, I know I would.

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  349. To Robinson I’d ask if the school glossing over his “vulnerability” to crime helped or hurt T.s chances. He got breaks. He didnt seem to appreciate them. His worst screw up wasn’t marijuana, it was punching another human being when that punching wasn’t needed to prevent Injury to himself.

    Do neighborhoods have an obligation to sacrifice their homes and possessions to “mistakes” and “vulnerabilities”? Why would Zimmerman need to sacrifice his health or his life and make allowances for the punk raining down the punches?

    The first account of this whole horror show I ever heard was that a Florida teen was shot by a person on neighborhood watch who attacked the kid on his own porch. Jeantal is unreliable, but she did say that T was next to his own house when her call with T was over. I suppose that is where that came from, though I believe Brandy at one time believed he had come home. If he went back looking for a fight.. And found it, why must others pay for his foolishness?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  350. Dana@350:


    Mr Martin very obviously had a chance, because he had a choice: he could have declined to attack Mr Zimmerman.

    Mr Zimmerman at the outset was in control and was the aggressor, yet disobeyed the advice of the dispatcher. His choice to back off was the earliest choice. Why do you defend his behavior.

    You seem to be insensitive to the more intense focus by police on African-Americans, as is the case for example for drug law enforcement, as Eugene Robinson pointed out.

    Where is your information which says that Al Sharpton isn’t concerned about black on black violent crime, or did you just make that up? I suggest you read this.

    Why is it somehow racism for one white male to kill one black male in circumstances in which self-defense seems to be the most likely reason, but it’s not racism for hundreds of black males to kill other black males, with notice barely taken, not only by whites in society, but by the self-proclaimed black leadership as well?

    How can black on black violence have a racial component, Dana. Your question is nonsense.

    Observer (892663)

  351. This is a joke, right?

    elissa (2174a1)

  352. George Zimmerman is Black – Case Closed!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  353. I believe we will see this as a landmark case for many decades to come.

    Yes, and just as was the case with November 2008 — meaning a sea change for the ages (and it being important as a way to place current events in their full context too) — the Zimmerman trial and the response to it will be one of those “a-ha!” moments when the truly corrupt (and surprisingly ruthless and bigoted) nature of modern-day liberalism was run up the flagpole for all to see and be both amazed and appalled by.

    Mark (98b17a)

  354. Sarah W@ 359:

    Do neighborhoods have an obligation to sacrifice their homes and possessions to “mistakes” and “vulnerabilities”? Why would Zimmerman need to sacrifice his health or his life and make allowances for the punk raining down the punches?

    This is like the expectation for the male of our species to control his instincts when he finds himself in the proximity of a woman wearing a revealing garment. You can relate to that I’m sure, Sarah.

    For Zimmerman, self-restraint and self-discipline was not too much to expect, especially when in contact with the police, having been told they were on the way. Not only did he kill another human being, but also he has damaged the rest of his own life, secluded from the public.

    Zimmerman’s next challenge will be when a civil suit will be initiated against him.

    Observer (892663)

  355. Observer – Why are you dodging direct answers to DRJ’s respectful questions?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  356. So, we (you) expect GZ to exercise self-restraint and self-discipline?
    Why is the same not expected of TM?
    Or, do you infantalize TM by not expecting him to have the same character traits?
    And you call us Racists.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  357. Mr Zimmerman at the outset was in control and was the aggressor, yet disobeyed the advice of the dispatcher. His choice to back off was the earliest choice. Why do you defend his behavior.

    Abject nonsense, Perry

    JD (560eb4)

  358. For Zimmerman, self-restraint and self-discipline was not too much to expect,

    Since when the hell do liberals care about self-restraint and self-discipline?

    Mark (98b17a)

  359. 347.Well stated DRJ @ 344.

    And speaking about in hindsight, in reading through several threads here on this topic, I don’t think I am seeing comments which reflect the reactions of African-Americans, specifically African-American males. Perhaps there are none on here. Consequently, I recommend to anyone this short piece published today by Eugene Robinson, Washington Post columnist and father of two sons 24 and 21, here.

    Here are Robinson’s concluding paragraphs in this piece, which cause me to pause and reflect:

    The conversation we need to have is about how black men, even black boys, are denied the right to be young, to be vulnerable, to make mistakes to beat the crap out of creepy-ass crackers for looking at them wrong without getting shot.

    What is your reaction DRJ et al?

    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    FTFY, Observer. My reaction will be in my next response.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  360. Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/16/2013 @ 2:12 pm

    The first account of this whole horror show I ever heard was that a Florida teen was shot by a person on neighborhood watch who attacked the kid on his own porch. Jeantal is unreliable, but she did say that T was next to his own house

    Or very close, but he wasn’t.

    when her call with T was over.

    She said her call was interrupted by the same a man Traybon Martin saw before, (presumably George Zimmerman) suddenly showing up, and speaking harshly to Trayvon Martin and then within a few seconds the phone got disconnected and she never got connected again.

    Sammy Finkelman (af3697)

  361. Observer/Gramps2/Rebus/Wagonwheel/Perry wrote:

    Mr Martin very obviously had a chance, because he had a choice: he could have declined to attack Mr Zimmerman.

    Mr Zimmerman at the outset was in control and was the aggressor, yet disobeyed the advice of the dispatcher. His choice to back off was the earliest choice. Why do you defend his behavior.

    Observer, if you are not new to this discussion, and have, perhaps, commented previously on other Zimmerman threads, perhaps using the handle Gramps2, you would know that I have not defended Mr Zimmerman’s actions, and have, in fact, stated that Mr Zimmerman was the one who created the whole situation. Apparently, if we are to believe the word of Juror B37, the jury thought so as well.

    However, while Mr Zimmerman may have created the situation by following Mr Martin, that was not illegal, even if unwise. Mr Martin’s physical assault on Mr Zimmerman was the act which crossed the threshold from an unpleasant, but still legal, encounter, into a crime. That Mr Zimmerman did not follow the dispatcher’s suggestion does not somehow make it acceptable for Mr Martin to have assaulted him.

    Why is it somehow racism for one white male to kill one black male in circumstances in which self-defense seems to be the most likely reason, but it’s not racism for hundreds of black males to kill other black males, with notice barely taken, not only by whites in society, but by the self-proclaimed black leadership as well?

    How can black on black violence have a racial component, Dana. Your question is nonsense.

    No, it is quite sensible: the Reverend Sharpton and the rest of the black leadership have completely devalued their own people, not caring if they die, unless their deaths somehow present an opportunity to get in front of the television cameras. Trayvon Martin is not one bit deader than the hundreds of black males who have been bleeding to death on the sidewalks and streets of foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia, but the Reverend Sharpton is nowhere to be seen on the banks of the Delaware River, screaming for arrests of their killers, leading marches in protest of the cultural conditions which have created and enabled so much black-on-black killing, trying to actually do something about that situation, because it doesn’t personally benefit him.

    How is the Reverend Sharpton racist? He judges all of these situations by race; can he make face time if the killer is white, or is it simply a wash, because the killer is black?

    The Dana who expects no better (af9ec3)

  362. I left a rather long comment, immediately above, which simply vanished; I guess that it got caught in the spam filter.

    The Dana in moderation (af9ec3)

  363. The Dana,

    We’ll all wait on pins and needles for it to appear.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  364. Mr Zimmerman at the outset was in control and was the aggressor, yet disobeyed the advice of the dispatcher. His choice to back off was the earliest choice. Why do you defend his behavior.

    Ok, is this the next phase of the lie? Now that the dispatcher has testified they never tell people what to do, and the lie that GZ disobeyed police orders, the next phase of the lie is he disobeyed a suggestion? That’s non sequitur.

    How can black on black violence have a racial component, Dana. Your question is nonsense.

    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 2:55 pm

    You think it’s nonsense? You’ve never seen ethnic tensions between Haitian immigrants, or west African immigrants, and American born blacks?

    Then you don’t know what you’re talking about. As if we couldn’t tell already.

    Here’s my response. If you want a conversation then stop lying, and hiding the evidence. TM was not shot for walking to the corner store. GZ was not the aggressor and was not in control of the situation.

    Until you and Eugene Robinson can face facts, no conversation. The guilt bank is closed.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  365. Rachel Jeantel says she heard the next day from people who attended Trayvon Martin’s school that Trayvon Martin was dead (had passed)

    But his father HADN’T EVEN IDENTIFIED him at that point! He filed a missing person’s report on February 27, and then the police came to him.

    How could it be, that in Miami, the next morning, or even afternoon, they knew he was dead?

    What’s the timeline on that?

    Sammy Finkelman (af3697)

  366. 368.For Zimmerman, self-restraint and self-discipline was not too much to expect,

    Since when the hell do liberals care about self-restraint and self-discipline?

    Comment by Mark (98b17a) — 7/16/2013 @ 3:15 pm

    Oh, it’s not like liberals want to practice self-control. They just demand it from others. The only way they can safely act out on their impulses consequence-free is if other people exercise self-restraint.

    It’s just no fun assaulting people or going wilding when you might end up dead.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  367. Observer,

    My reaction is Eugene Robinson is using Trayvon Martin’s death to argue for affirmative action for blacks in the criminal justice system, and I don’t think that will help.

    Too many Americans — both black and white — increasingly live in a culture of abortion, illegitimacy, single parenting, broken families, and welfare. This leads them to become involved in drugs and crime, or to live in communities facing those problems. The answer isn’t to say the criminal laws must be changed so we don’t “create” so many black offenders.

    The answer is to change the culture that makes crime and drugs the only choice or the easy choice.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  368. But Sammy, that begs the question of Jeantel’s reliability, because she could be misrepresenting anything in those sequence of events. She’s a demonstrated fabulist. Who knows what story she first told and how it has evolved.

    All I know is the first story of a boy being attacked/shot on his own front porch trying to get in his house by some suspicious neighbor, was obviously a very distorted tall tale; and that it seems designed to encourage outrage.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  369. Observer #364:

    For Zimmerman, self-restraint and self-discipline was not too much to expect, especially when in contact with the police, having been told they were on the way. Not only did he kill another human being, but also he has damaged the rest of his own life, secluded from the public.

    This assumes the facts are Zimmerman accosted Martin, despite the fact he knew the police were on their way (because he called them). But the evidence at trial indicated it was Martin who accosted and punched Zimmerman as he was waiting for the police.

    Zimmerman’s next challenge will be when a civil suit will be initiated against him.

    If it happens. It may not.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  370. Sarahw,

    Sammy isn’t interested in reliability or logic—he just enjoys putting his head down, typing and cutting and pasting (double-spaced, always !) mountains of various theories.
    Patterico has taken out a second mortgage to pay for the monthly bandwidth that Sammy occupies.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  371. Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 3:08 pm

    That doesn’t even make any sense, Observer.
    If there was anyone in “the short skirt” it was Zimmerman. He was sandbagged; he should not have to let the little dear punch his lights out because said little dear is young. And certainly not because he is black.

    Trying to help police get to this kid by seeing which way he went is not a confrontation or an out of control person.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  372. Sammy makes a good point:

    She said her call was interrupted by the same a man Traybon Martin saw before, (presumably George Zimmerman) suddenly showing up, and speaking harshly to Trayvon Martin and then within a few seconds the phone got disconnected and she never got connected again.

    Sarah, this was testimony given under oath. You cannot just toss it out because you don’t like it. This clearly indicates that Zimmerman, buoyed by the gun he had hidden, was the aggressor up to that point. Is it a surprise that Trayvon would defend himself there in the dark?

    Observer (892663)

  373. 333.Steve57 – One of Obama’s pet projects in the Illinois Senate was trying to get a bill passed to regulate police stops based on community-based racial demographics, or quotas. The police hated the concept because it divorced the source of crime from police activity to prevent or solve crime, but race-based quota policing has become a favorite pleading of the left. It also dovetails into what the Miami school system was doing in suppressing crime statistics, leaving TM to have no criminal record before his attack on GZ.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/16/2013 @ 11:16 am

    North Carolina’s now-repealed Racial Justice Act is emblematic of Obama’s kind of thinking. Still, to this day.

    I usually don’t link to Wikipedia as a source and this article on the Racial Justice Act shows why. it doesn’t begin to detail what a disaster that law was but only hints at it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Justice_Act

    Major revision (2012)[edit]

    The North Carolina General Assembly passed a major revision of the law in 2012 authored by Rep. Paul Stam (R-Wake). The rewrite “severely restricts the use of statistics to only the county or judicial district where the crime occurred, instead of the entire state or region. It also says statistics alone are insufficient to prove bias, and that the race of the victim cannot be taken into account.” The bill was vetoed by Gov. Perdue, but this time, the legislature overrode the governor’s veto.[4]

    Essentially if NC wasn’t executing whites in a statistically equal manner NC couldn’t execute blacks. Eric Holder’s “disparate impact” theory in action shut down the death penalty entirely. The individual facts of the case didn’t matter, just as they don’t to the people who decided guilt or innocence in the GZ/TM case solely by looking at the races of who shot whom.

    Along the same lines I ran across this this morning:

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/07/16/msnbcs-michael-eric-dyson-more-white-kids-need-to-die-in-order-for-americans-to-understand-racism/

    MSNBC’s Michael Eric Dyson: More White Kids Need To Die In Order For Americans To Understand Racism…

    …Do something courageous, bold, and helpful. Not only to African American people but to America. Because unless we do this, white Americans and others will feel that this was a justifiable verdict, this is how things happen. Not until, and unless, the number of white kids die that approximate the numbers of black and other kids who die, will America see. It’s beyond logic. It’s about rationality. It’s about let’s get something done.

    You see, America doesn’t understand the black POV on the GZ/TM because of disparate impact.

    Two related points:

    1) This is the point of the critical race theorists push on “white privilege” social justice curriculum in schools. Unless and until whites experience what it’s like to experience the hate that exists in their imagination or movies like “Mississippi Burning” the whites won’t change. They’ll still view the criminal justice system as a place that dispenses individual justice rather than a system that should dispense racial justice. The same objective NC’s Racial Justice Act was supposed to achieve with the death penalty.

    In essence the issue the black race mongers and their constituents have with the GZ trial is that GZ wasn’t railroaded. They wanted whites to see GZ go to prison and know he was railroaded. Since the system worked it won’t produce the kind of change they want.

    2) The second amendment and SYG laws are racist precisely because it prevents whites from developing the same siege mentality as blacks. Since the siege mentality resulted from largely unarmed blacks in the south living in fear of KKK nightriders the situation must be reversed before whites will change.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  374. Observer, even if we accept one of serial liar Rachel Jeantel’s version of events as the truth, punching someone for speaking harshly to you isn’t defending yourself. It’s committing assault. Which by the way had TM lived he would have undoubtedly been charged as an adult and as a 17 y.o. he’d have been sent to an adult prison.

    People old enough to join the military not being children and all.

    Again, no conversation for you until you’re adult enough to face facts. Even your version of events shows TM as the aggressor.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  375. The jury can and did disregard Jeantel’s testimony because they didn’t believe her. So we can just toss it out.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  376. How strange, Sarahw, and what a coincidence.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  377. Sarah, this was testimony given under oath. You cannot just toss it out because you don’t like it. This clearly indicates that Zimmerman, buoyed by the gun he had hidden, was the aggressor up to that point. Is it a surprise that Trayvon would defend himself there in the dark?

    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 4:04 pm

    Of course I can. She had already lied under oath. Her story was internally inconsistent, and for that matter every version after the trial.
    Without corroboration, “false in one, false in all.”

    You might review what the PROSECUTOR said about Jeantal in his genius closing remarks.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  378. Observer,

    Maybe when you’ve been grounded-and pounded MMA style, you were the obnoxious aggressor, but GZ was not breaking any laws by reporting a suspicious person, who turned out (ironically !!!1!!1!! or whatever)to be an expelled-from-school dope-smoking thief whose own momma didn’t want him living under her roof anymore.

    Trayvon glorified the gangsta thug lifestyle on his Twitter account. He attacked someone, and that someone happened to have a gun. That’s the risk one takes when one attacks someone for allegedly looking at them funny.

    Hey, it’s hard to be a pimp in the suburbs !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  379. It’s codified in Texas:

    § 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in
    Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against
    another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is
    immediately necessary to protect himself against the other’s use or
    attempted use of unlawful force.
    (b) The use of force against another is not justified:
    (1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

    But as I understand it even though it’s not spelled out in the statutes of some other states it doesn’t need to be. Due to legal precedent a verbal provocation is never sufficient to elicit a physical response.

    As a matter of fact the defense expert testified to that fact.

    Notice the state didn’t produce a defense expert of their own. They couldn’t find one who had credentials that could withstand even cursory scrutiny. They were probably embarrassed by their so-called speech experts they got from the “Wally Thor School of Truck Driving, Hair Dressing, and Expert Witnessing” that they didn’t want to go that route again.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  380. By the way those prosecution voice “experts” testified under oath. As did the defense experts who demolished them. Ultimately even the judge had to admit what the prosecution experts testified to under oath was so unbelievable they couldn’t be allowed in front of the jury.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  381. Comment by Sarahw (b0e533)

    But, Sammy, that begs the question of Jeantel’s reliability, because she could be misrepresenting anything in those sequence of events. She’s a demonstrated fabulist.

    Thats correct. But you’re the one who brought in Rachel Jeantel (in that she also said that TM was close to home. But she actually places George Zimmerman at the same location.

    And we know – well some know – how close – not so close – where they met was.

    You said: I suppose that is where that came from

    It probably came from the lawyers, who told her what they’d like to hear. I have strong doubts she spoke to him at all, because some of her lies, or lies about her, are lies you would tell to explain why she talked to him.

    Lie 1: She was his girlfriend.

    Lie 2: She was 16. (to explain why she should be a girlfriend – this makes her younger than Trayvon)

    Lie 3: She was in the hospital (to explain why Trayvon’s girlfriend did not attend the funeral.)

    though I believe Brandy at one time believed he had come home.

    I didn’t hear that one. If he’d actually got home, then his 14-year possible future step-brother might have known.

    If he went back looking for a fight.. And found it, why must others pay for his foolishness?

    There’s a couple of other possible explanations, but I kind of doubt he got home and then went back out. How could even know George Zimmerman was still in the area, if he’d lost sight of him?

    Who knows what story she first told and how it has evolved.

    I figure some aspects of her story only make sense in terms of attempting to tell a different lie, or a lie with a different point, than what she and her counselers ultimately settled on.

    Sammy Finkelman (af3697)

  382. All I know is the first story of a boy being attacked/shot on his own front porch trying to get in his house by some suspicious neighbor, was obviously a very distorted tall tale; and that it seems designed to encourage outrage.

    That business of telling distorted stories to encourage outrage is still going on – in fact it just got worse.

    Today Attorney General Eric Holder made a speech to the NAACP convention which is being held in Orlando in which he came out against Stand Your Ground laws, as if laws that make it too easy to claim self-defense os what caused the verdict.

    (Orlando? Did someone guess when the trial would end?)

    Sammy Finkelman (af3697)

  383. R.e. 389.

    *They couldn’t find one willing to counter the defense expert who had credentials that could withstand even cursory scrutiny.*

    Steve57 (15e538)

  384. Sarah, this was testimony given under oath. You cannot just toss it out because you don’t like it. This clearly indicates that Zimmerman, buoyed by the gun he had hidden, was the aggressor up to that point. Is it a surprise that Trayvon would defend himself there in the dark?

    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 4:04 pm

    Observer, Jeantel is a proven perjurer and an admitted pothead. She’s on tape being coached by Crump as to her testimony – something the prosecution worked to conceal. She’s incoherent. And to top it off, you are quoting not her testimony but Sammy’s SOOPERSEKRETINTEL interpretation of her testimony.

    That’s like triple-incoherent.

    SPQR (768505)

  385. Wait a minute… I thought lefties always put more stock in good intentions than good results.

    Colonel Haiku (5348bf)

  386. Why

    must

    Sammy

    always

    double-space

    everything ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  387. Elephant Stone @ 388:

    Maybe when you’ve been grounded-and pounded MMA style, you were the obnoxious aggressor, but GZ was not breaking any laws by reporting a suspicious person, who turned out (ironically !!!1!!1!! or whatever)to be an expelled-from-school dope-smoking thief whose own momma didn’t want him living under her roof anymore.

    Trayvon glorified the gangsta thug lifestyle on his Twitter account. He attacked someone, and that someone happened to have a gun. That’s the risk one takes when one attacks someone for allegedly looking at them funny.

    Well now Mr Stone, have you factored in Zingerman’s past behavior to help you understand his aggressive behavior in this case? Look here:

    5. Zimmerman could have been barred from carrying a weapon.
    Zimmerman had a long history of violence, including a restraining order for domestic violence, felony charges of resisting arrest, and assaulting an officer (the charge was pled down to a misdemeanor and then closed; Zimmerman’s dad was a magistrate at the time). He was bounced from a job as a bouncer for being too aggressive with patrons, the New York Daily News reported. And a family member accused him of a pattern of sexual molestation. He wasn’t convicted of any felony charges, which could have barred him from a gun license, but in some societies, people would determine that such a history makes someone less than an ideal candidate for the right to carry around a hidden loaded weapon.

    There are a few more valid points made in the link.

    What do you think, Mr Stone?

    Observer (892663)

  388. That’s our Sammy

    Double-spacin’ in his jammies

    Colonel Haiku (1011ad)

  389. Won’t eat teh green eggs and hammy

    and he’ll nevah win a Grammy

    Colonel Haiku (1011ad)

  390. Actually, I believe that the Observer has told us a great deal about the subtle racism of our friends on the left. Mr Zimmerman create the situation, by calling the police and following Mr Martin:

    Mr Zimmerman at the outset was in control and was the aggressor, yet disobeyed the advice of the dispatcher. His choice to back off was the earliest choice. Why do you defend his behavior.

    Apparently, at least to our new Observer, Mr Martin lacked any free choice or ability to be responsible at this point. Mr Martin attacked Mr Zimmerman because, well because he somehow had no choice but to swing first. Mr Martin wrestled Mr Zimmerman to the ground — which, even though this left Mr Zimmerman without the option to retreat or flee, still left Mr Zimmerman in control — and seemingly had no choice but to try to “ground and pound” on him, because his will was not his own.

    Somehow, in some way we obviously intellectually inferior conservatives cannot understand, young black males simply have no control over their actions, even actions which escalate the situation, apparently due to the fact that their great-great-great grandfathers were enslaved. It is only our oh-so-noble and compassionately intelligent friends on the left who realize that it is not racism to treat black Americans differently, but it is racism to treat them equally, and expect them to adhere to the same standards as the rest of us.

    The Dana in moderation . . or the Spam® queue (af9ec3)

  391. Well said, Dana who is …

    SPQR (768505)

  392. I thought lefties always put more stock in good intentions than good results.

    With that in mind, I didn’t realize just how malevolent people can be when they’re lousy assessors of other humans and situations. Or just how ruthless (intentionally or inadvertently) such people have to be when they transpose good and bad. So in their way of looking at the world, good people become bad, bad people become good. Good situations become bad, bad situations become good.

    A lot of us (meaning we humans) are as guilty as the next guy of this, because so many of us are lulled into embracing the notion that beautiful intentions and wonderful compassion excuse or justify just about all forms of stupidity, ignorance and cruelty.

    Mark (98b17a)

  393. He had zero history of violence, Observer. Quit lying.

    I suggest everyone goes to L.I. and get ahead of Observer’s campaign of lies and if not outright false exaggerated allegations:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/feds-want-zimmerman-any-way-they-can-get-him/

    Feds want Zimmerman, any way they can get him

    Posted by William A. Jacobson Tuesday, July 16, 2013 at 7:02pm

    This no longer is about George Zimmerman, it’s about a Department of Justice serving political interests.

    There’s a reason we stand up for the rights of individuals like George Zimmerman against an overreaching State.

    It’s not just about the individual. It’s about all of us, and the reality that there but for fortune could go you or I.

    The highly politicized Department of Justice desperately wants to bring federal charges to placate the race-agitators, and has joined in the witch hunt.

    Via The Orlando Sentinel, DOJ solicits email tips in Zimmerman civil rights probe (h/t readers and commenters):

    This is a public smear campaign. We can expect Observer and his ilk to spread the lies that Eric “My People” Holder has advertised he wants on Zimmerman far and wide.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  394. MSNBC’s Michael Eric Dyson: More White Kids Need To Die In Order For Americans To Understand Racism…

    I thought over 500,000 once did.

    So, my question is, if we get rid of stand your ground laws (which were not a factor in Z’s case anyway as it was prosecuted or defended), in the situation that Z was in did he have a duty to dig a hole in order to get away?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  395. Observer, at #355 I asked you the following question:

    Observer, have you commented here recently using a different name? If so, what name?

    Comment by ropelight (e74c7d) — 7/16/2013 @ 1:34 pm

    Please answer the question…

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  396. Observer is just Perry v 3.0

    JD (9e96fa)

  397. If the current president and AG want to make a point of protecting “their people” and people “who look like their children”, do they intend to make that a precedent?

    I do not think that is a wise idea.
    Especially for a post-racial president.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  398. Dana, the racism isn’t subtle.

    What’s subtle about MSNBC’s Dyson saying that unless white children get murdered at the same rate as black children whites will never get their minds right? Which means of course that there’s a white way of looking at the world, a black way, and the white way is racist.

    Also from L.I.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerman-verdict-energizes-salon-coms-white-privilege-branding/

    I’m not going to quote from the article, but Prof. Jacobson has a screen cap in which he highlights a few links to articles.

    Such as:

    Zimmerman saga was all about race.

    White Supremacy, meet black rage

    Is George Zimmerman White or Hispanic? It depends

    subtitled: For White Hispanics our privilege can always be undercut. Zimmerman bet on his whiteness – and now he’s entrapped.

    Where’s the subtle racism, Dana?

    Steve57 (15e538)

  399. Observer may have missed or chosen to overlook this little overview of Trayvon’s high school career.:

    http://spectator.org/blog/2013/07/15/trayvon-crime-school-miami

    elissa (683e29)

  400. elissa, Perry’s dishonesty is no accident.

    SPQR (768505)

  401. Observer,

    Nice try, Rodney. You might make the freshman debating team with those oratory skills. You also may want to be like Bob Uecker and ask the people obstructing your view to “sit down, in front!” so you can see things more clearly.
    GZ was legally entitled to carry a gun. On the other hand, your little Girl Scout Trayvon Martin was only legally entitled to carry a bag of Skittles and some women’s jewelry that he stole.
    Oops, well, I guess possession of stolen goods is against the law, huh ?

    Attempting to smear GZ with allegations is just the Al Sharpton way of trying to save face when the facts aren’t in your favor.
    Trayvon was the original dope-smoking, cough-syrup-drinking Gangsta Thug who played with the sleeping tiger’s tail. He was such an aggressive young man, that his momma didn’t want him anymore. How sad.

    If Trayvon the Tough Guy Gangsta was reallllly afraid of being followed, he ought to have run inside the nearby house of his daddy’s mistress, and called the police. Viciously attacking a man who was merely protecting his own crime-ridden neighborhood is not exactly something from the “Leave it to Beaver” playbook.

    By the way, GZ’s high school prom date was black, as was his business partner. So please take your hysterical MSNBC racism postulations back to the waiting room at the welfare department where you pick up your monthly check.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  402. Wow, so “Observer” is just old man Perry trying to hide his identity again ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  403. Mr Martin lacked any free choice or ability to be responsible at this point. Mr Martin attacked Mr Zimmerman because, well because he somehow had no choice but to swing first. Mr Martin wrestled Mr Zimmerman to the ground — which, even though this left Mr Zimmerman without the option to retreat or flee, still left Mr Zimmerman in control — and seemingly had no choice but to try to “ground and pound” on him, because his will was not his own.

    Because in the deranged mind of a Leftist, minorities have no self control or free will, as they are either children, or animals.

    We, in the civilized world, call that viewpoint Racist!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  404. Oops, well, I guess possession of stolen goods is against the law, huh ?

    BTW, what was in TM’s pockets when he was shot?
    Anything more than that “bag of Skittles”?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  405. 413.Wow, so “Observer” is just old man Perry trying to hide his identity again ?

    It also just linked bs that’s already been debunked. It’s just a $h!t$t!rrer—’nuff said.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  406. race-baiting hustlers
    Satan’s Minions along with
    Teh Great Uniter

    Colonel Haiku (5c7e24)

  407. I would suggest that, if the Observer really is Gramps2, really is Rebus, really is Wagonwheel or Perry, he ought to just plain ‘fess up. Our esteemed host has already noted that he believes that Gramps2 is Perry, but didn’t do anything — or at least, didn’t do anything he noted in public, unless I missed it — to either ban Gramps2 or throw him into automatic moderation, as he did with Perry. Gramps2 was making his arguments most vociferously, but if he is continually changing screen names, he is running afoul of the stated blog policy, “Commenters who do not use a consistent name, and/or who use a proxy to post, are subject to banning.”

    If the Observer really is Gramps2, he ought to at the very least return to that screen name.

    The tolerant Dana (af9ec3)

  408. Dems can be trusted
    to fan the flames of discord
    Hillary’s heart hurts

    Colonel Haiku (5c7e24)

  409. Now, Observer, I’ve got another question for you. At #381 you enclose a statement from Sammy (#370) within blockquotes as follows: (by Rachael Jeantel)

    She said her call was interrupted by the same a man Traybon Martin saw before, (presumably George Zimmerman) suddenly showing up, and speaking harshly to Trayvon Martin and then within a few seconds the phone got disconnected and she never got connected again.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (af3697) — 7/16/2013 @ 3:25 pm

    Then you go on to address Sarah and claim: (emphasis added)

    …it was testimony given under oath. You cannot just toss it out because you don’t like it. This clearly indicates that Zimmerman, buoyed by the gun he had hidden, was the aggressor up to that point. Is it a surprise that Trayvon would defend himself there in the dark?

    Comment by Observer (892663) — 7/16/2013 @ 4:04 pm

    So, Observer, are you claiming Sammy’s statement is a quote from the trial transcript? You can quote Sammy, but you can’t claim his statement is a direct quote from Rachael Jeantel’s trial testimony unless it is, and the responsibility for demonstrating that is on you.

    So, if you are who I think you are and you’ve assumed yet another moniker to conceal your multiple impersonations then your playing fast and loose with quotations is one of your more persistent and identifiable MOs. In fact you were called out for that very transgression not more than a few days ago.

    Isn’t it about time you quit playing games, start acting like an adult, and knock off the double talk and tap dance. Really…Perry…really?

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  410. teh Master Blaster
    paid teh cost to be Teh Boss
    Boss with teh Hot Sauce

    Colonel Haiku (5c7e24)

  411. Viciously attacking a man who was merely protecting his own crime-ridden neighborhood is not exactly something from the “Leave it to Beaver” playbook.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/16/2013 @ 5:08 pm

    Laugh Out Loud, I do. Reminds me of old joke it does!

    June Cleaver: Ward have you seen the Beaver lately?

    Ward Cleaver: I saw it last night in bed honey!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  412. they’d destroy nation
    cynical race panderers
    may God damn their souls

    Colonel Haiku (5c7e24)

  413. I know that many here are already aware of it, but perhaps not all are:

    That jewelry Trayvon had was confiscated and retained in a “found property” status. But since it was never properly or officially reported, it was not ever matched with police reports listing burglaries or property reported stolen in the general area of the school. After the scandal over Chief Hurley became known, an industrious female reporter or blogger (not sure which) put two and two together and was able to match up some of the stolen jewelry with its rightful owners. But supposedly she actually had to almost beg the police department to get them to look into it.

    elissa (683e29)

  414. Things that make you go hummmm…

    They call George Zimmerman a White Hispanic, but he has enough verifiable African American ancestry to qualify as black for affirmative action set asides.

    ropelight (e74c7d)

  415. 385.The jury can and did disregard Jeantel’s testimony because they didn’t believe her. So we can just toss it out.

    Even assuming you are correct about the jury we are free to make our own judgments about the value (or lack thereof) of her testimony. I wouldn’t give it great weight but as reported (I didn’t listen to it myself) it seems roughly consistent with the other evidence so I wouldn’t toss it out entirely. Do you think she just made up the “creepy ass cracker” bit?

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  416. Further to elissa’s comment @423, The American Spectator has a decent summary with links:

    http://spectator.org/blog/2013/07/15/trayvon-crime-school-miami

    Steve57 (15e538)

  417. Great, James. Let’s not toss it out. She didn’t make up the “creepy ass cracker” bit. She also didn’t make up the fact she told TM that GZ might be a rapist.

    In fact, she elaborated on both points last night on Piers Morgan. She told Piers that TM didn’t want to go home because his younger brother was there, and he thought GZ was a gay rapist.

    So how does it help your tale to know GZ had to shoot TM because he was a victim of a gay bashing? A federal crime, by the way, since if you read the Shepard-Byrd Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 it’s a hate crime to attack someone due to that person’s perceived sexual orientation.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  418. http://drudgereport.com/flashrj.htm

    JEANTEL WARNED ZIMMERMAN COULD BE GAY RAPIST
    TRAYVON: NOT THAT KIND OF WAY
    Tue Jul 16 2013 11:55:00 ET

    Last night Trayvon Martin’s friend Rachel Jeantel gave CNN her first interview since testifying in the George Zimmerman murder trial.

    Jeantel opened up and let loose on the murder case that gripped that nation.

    She explained to CNN’s Piers Morgan how she warned her childhood friend that Zimmerman — could be a gay rapist!

    MORGAN: You felt that there was no doubt in your mind from what Trayvon was telling you on the phone about the creepy ass cracka and so on, that he absolutely believed that George Zimmerman, this man, you didn’t know who he was at the time, but this man, was pursuing him?

    JEANTEL: Yes.

    MORGAN: And he was freaked out by it?

    JEANTEL: Yes. Definitely after I say may be a rapist, for every boy, for every man, every — who’s not that kind of way, seeing a grown man following them, would they be creep out?

    She continued:

    “And people need to understand, he didn’t want that creepy ass cracker going to his father or girlfriend’s house to go get — mind you, his little brother was there. You know — now, mind you, I told you — I told Trayvon it might have been a rapist.”

    Remember, she testified under oath that she told TM the “creepy ass cracker” might be a rapist. She testified under oath that TM told her he was by his father’s house. In fact, when West asked her how she knew for sure; how she knew TM wasn’t lying to her, she responded: “That’s real retarded, sirrrr.” So he went back to confront GZ, according to Jeantel’s testimony, because he didn’t want the gay rapist to come to his “father’s or girlfriend’s house” because he “wasn’t that way.”

    Discuss.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  419. Excuse me. “[N]ot that kind of way.”

    There’s tons of evidence in this case that there were serial violations of someone’s civil rights as well as a possible hate crime.

    But GZ isn’t the perpetrator; he’s the victim.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  420. James,

    She lied repeatedly and admitted she lied, plus examples like this Patterico post show she’s still lying. So, no, I don’t believe anything she says — even the things that help Zimmerman’s story.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  421. Telling the truth be so old school, DRJ.

    Simon Jester (87af20)

  422. 427

    So how does it help your tale to know GZ had to shoot TM because he was a victim of a gay bashing? …

    Don’t know what you think my tale is, I thought the jury verdict was correct.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  423. 429

    She lied repeatedly and admitted she lied, plus examples like this Patterico post show she’s still lying. So, no, I don’t believe anything she says — even the things that help Zimmerman’s story.

    People do lie about things and sometimes they are confused or mistaken as well. Doesn’t mean everything they say is wrong. The prosecution kept trying to characterize various statements of Zimmerman as lies. I don’t think they were all that successful but even if they had proven some lies I would have just given that some weight not automatically concluded Zimmerman was guilty.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  424. Simon – Some of us are old school.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  425. Your tale is that we shouldn’t toss out her testimony entirely. Agreed. But not because it is roughly consistent with the other evidence, as you said in #425. Because as I recall it wasn’t. It didn’t corroborate or confirm any of the audio or physical evidence.

    But I do think it helps establish what TM’s mindset was more so than the state’s attempts to twist the audio of GZ’s conversation with the dispatcher established his.

    According to Jeantel he was freaked out because GZ was following him and decided not to lead GZ home to his little brother because Jeantel had put it in his mind that GZ was a gay rapist.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  426. By “your tale” I meant that I had concluded you decided that as a prosecution witness she had somehow furthered the prosecution’s tale.

    And it truly was a tale.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  427. Steve57, A few weeks ago I commented on a thread here that I was intrigued about why Rachael said she “felt guilty”. I said that was a strange thing for her to say and made no sense unless in her conversations with him she knew she had somehow pushed Trayvon to action or egged him on. I think with this interview we may actually be starting to get to the bottom of it.

    elissa (683e29)

  428. Doesn’t mean everything they say is wrong

    But the only way to know what that might be is if something she said can be corroborated, and I don’t believe we have any corroboration of her story other than she was on the phone with Trayvon at some point. Otherwise, she’s virtually worthless as a source of reliable information because: she lies, has an agenda, and/or does her best to avoid, agree with or please whoever she’s talking to.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  429. It’s pretty much impossible to make a living as a lawyer specializing in representing defamation plaintiffs.

    Beldar (6a7aec)

  430. all the same you shouldn’t defamate people

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  431. She lied repeatedly and admitted she lied, plus examples like this Patterico post show she’s still lying. So, no, I don’t believe anything she says — even the things that help Zimmerman’s story.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/16/2013 @ 7:16 pm

    This.

    SPQR (768505)

  432. elissa,

    It makes sense only if you assume Jeantel suggested to Trayvon that Zimmerman might be gay and/or a pervert, and she believes that triggered Trayvon’s violent response. Or perhaps she feels guilty because, instead of urging Trayvon to run home, she instead suggested Trayvon try to intimidate or hurt Zimmerman. I don’t know, and I don’t think there’s any way we can get a reliable story from Jeantel. She’s far too melodramatic and self-absorbed.

    However, if we assume Jeantel actually said this to Trayvon, would Trayvon fear Zimmerman’s perversion/gayness and lash out in a panic? Or would he attack Zimmerman because he thought he might be a weak target that he could beat up MMA-style?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  433. I see plenty of black teenagers walking around my neighborhood, going to and from stores, passing through or those who just live here. I must confess that there are times when I restrain myself from calling the police because there are black people in the area. Maybe I need to kick that #whiterage liberals are describing up a bunch of notches, because I’m not feeling it. :)

    Things might be a little different up in that crime ridden hell hole where elissa resides, though.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  434. hi black teenager I’m happyfeet whatcha doooooooin?

    no really are you just like hanging out … you’re kinda walking towards the thai vegan place are you gonna go get tasty vegan?

    that’s a very good place or there’s a kentucky fried chicken if you go the other way

    no for reals turn around that was NOT a racism

    see?

    also there’s pizza and fish n chips and indian and chinese and burgers

    this is a pretty good neighborhood for foozles

    I like your hoodie btw I have one what says everlast on it I wear it sometimes but not usually in summer

    so

    what kind of music do you like?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  435. DRJ–I’m certain we’ll never know what she said to him or what Trayvon may have said to her. But I’m pretty sure she does feel guilty about something with respect to that night, because she’s one tough cookie and there is nothing else in her demeanor or in statements she has made in court or otherwise has ever even come close to showing vulnerability like her “I feel guilty” confession to Trayvon’s mom seems to. Maybe she knows she planted a seed to his destruction or thinks she should have talked him down if he told he he was going back to confront the creepy-ass cracka.

    elissa (683e29)

  436. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/16/2013 @ 8:19 pm

    and I don’t believe we have any corroboration of her story other than she was on the phone with Trayvon at some point.

    I don’t believe that’s corroborated at all. She testified that a certain phone number was hers that day, but I don’t believe that’s corroborated in any way. It’s been said, I don’t know exactly on what basis, that that phone was shared (a gang phone?) So I have alt of suspicion she was not the one speaking to him – I;’ve had that all the time actually, since she was so convenient for Benjamin Crump.

    And certain things that have been said would make sense to say if she DIDN’T talk to him that night.

    1) That she was his girlfriend (would explain why she was talking to him – but it’s not true)

    2) That she was 16 (would make it plausible that she was his girlfriend. It’s not so plausible with her true age.)

    3) That she couldn’t attend the funeral because she was in the hospital (would explain why Trayvon’s girlfriend did not attend his funeral.)

    And she had to be told by the MArtin family lawyers that she was the last person to talk to him.

    And although she suppposedly is all day on the phone with Trayvon on Sunday, and the last call gets sudddenly interrupted, she never tries
    to call him the next day or two. That calls for another lie: She learned he was dead on Monday. But she didn’t learn why or how.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  437. That was an elongated poorly constructed sentence with a word missing, but I hope you get what I generally meant.

    elissa (683e29)

  438. Don’t things look worse without double spacing? (otherwise known as paragraphing)

    I only separate, or try to separate, what’s supposed to be separated. Sometimes, in blockquoting, things can get separated too much.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  439. Comment by elissa (683e29) — 7/16/2013 @ 8:48 pm

    I’m pretty sure she does feel guilty about something with respect to that night, because she’s one tough cookie and there is nothing else in her demeanor or in statements she has made in court or otherwise has ever even come close to showing vulnerability like her “I feel guilty” confession to Trayvon’s mom seems to.

    No, no, no. That business about “feeling guilty” is to explain why she improved the story. It’s another lie to explain something. You see, the first time, Trayvon’s mother was there, and she didn’t want to make her feel bad by telling her Trayvon was afraid. Why should she not want to make Trayvon’s mother feel bad? Well, she felt guilty. Guilty about what? She could have prevented it, presumably.

    Not that that’s true, but it’s a plausible sounding lie.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  440. 437.Steve57, A few weeks ago I commented on a thread here that I was intrigued about why Rachael said she “felt guilty”. I said that was a strange thing for her to say and made no sense unless in her conversations with him she knew she had somehow pushed Trayvon to action or egged him on. I think with this interview we may actually be starting to get to the bottom of it.

    Comment by elissa (683e29) — 7/16/2013 @ 8:15 pm

    All the lies she told in order to not have to get involved make more sense, too.

    442.elissa,

    It makes sense only if you assume Jeantel suggested to Trayvon that Zimmerman might be gay and/or a pervert, and she believes that triggered Trayvon’s violent response. Or perhaps she feels guilty because, instead of urging Trayvon to run home, she instead suggested Trayvon try to intimidate or hurt Zimmerman. I don’t know, and I don’t think there’s any way we can get a reliable story from Jeantel. She’s far too melodramatic and self-absorbed.

    However, if we assume Jeantel actually said this to Trayvon, would Trayvon fear Zimmerman’s perversion/gayness and lash out in a panic? Or would he attack Zimmerman because he thought he might be a weak target that he could beat up MMA-style?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/16/2013 @ 8:31 pm

    Or he didn’t want Jeantel to spread the word he ran away from a gay white guy like a pu… scared little boy.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  441. 445.DRJ–I’m certain we’ll never know what she said to him or what Trayvon may have said to her. But I’m pretty sure she does feel guilty about something with respect to that night, because she’s one tough cookie and there is nothing else in her demeanor or in statements she has made in court or otherwise has ever even come close to showing vulnerability like her “I feel guilty” confession to Trayvon’s mom seems to. Maybe she knows she planted a seed to his destruction or thinks she should have talked him down if he told he he was going back to confront the creepy-ass cracka.

    Comment by elissa (683e29) — 7/16/2013 @ 8:48 pm

    From TalkLeft:

    I’ve said before, she’s not stupid, she’s manipulative. After watching her interview on Piers, I’d add calculating to the description.

    What might a self-centered, self-serving, manipulative, and calculating girl have to feel bad about here, I wonder?

    Steve57 (15e538)

  442. <blockquote MORGAN: You felt that there was no doubt in your mind from what Trayvon was telling you on the phone about the creepy ass cracka and so on, that he absolutely believed that George Zimmerman, this man, you didn’t know who he was at the time, but this man, was pursuing him?

    JEANTEL: Yes.

    MORGAN: And he was freaked out by it?

    JEANTEL: Yes… That contradicts her testimony. At the trial – just play back the start of her testimony – she said Trayvon said she wss playing with him – which means he thought the idea ridiculous – and apparently that was the end of that idea for the rest of the conversation.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  443. elissa,

    I’ll be the first to say I don’t know what Jeantel is really like, but why do you think she cared about Trayvon enough to feel guilty?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  444. She seems more focused on herself and her needs.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  445. Comment by Steve57 (15e538) — 7/16/2013 @ 9:10 pm

    What might a self-centered, self-serving, manipulative, and calculating girl have to feel bad about here, I wonder?

    She didn’t feel bad about anything. She only notionally felt bad.

    That idea is needed to explain why her story improved. That is, it wasn’t that she was lying the second time. No, she was omitting things the first time – out of consideration for Trayvon Martin’s mother’s feelings. Ah, but why should she have such concern? Guilt. Maybe if she’d urged hiim harder to run…

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  446. DRJ to Elissa: why do you think she cared about Trayvon enough to feel guilty?

    She didn’t. It’s needed as an explanation as to why her story changed. You see, Trayvon’s mother wsas there the first time….

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  447. elissa,

    If you’re interested in speculating why Jeantel might feel guilty, this website is a place to start.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  448. She told his mom she did. That’s on the record. Obviously, we can’t gauge whether she truly felt any guilt in her soul for any specific thing, or whether she merely thought that’s what one says to a grieving mother when you were the last person on the phone with him. We do know Rachae lied to Trayvon’s mother about why she was not at the funeral (because that was fact-checkable). So who really knows?

    elissa (683e29)

  449. When did she tell his mom she felt guilty? Who was present?

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  450. No, Sammy. Jeantel feels bad about Jeantel. Everything’s about Jeantel. For instance when her lie about missing the funeral because she was in the hospital was exposed as a lie, she admitted she doesn’t like to be around dead bodies. Also being around others who are crying makes her uncomfortable. Not that she sympathizes with whatever them about whatever is making them cry.

    Did you see her lash out at West when he said he was going to have to bring her back for a second day of testimony? She threw a tantrum and said she wasn’t coming back, until the judge told her she was.

    She didn’t want to come forward at first, it seems to me, just because she didn’t want to be inconvenienced. Her whole courtroom demeanor screamed out that she didn’t care about TM. Apparently he was just a phone friend for her entertainment. If Jeantel is bored, somebody talks to her. Or? If Jeantel is bored, how might a manipulative calculating young woman entertain herself? TM wanted to be known as a thug. It wouldn’t do much for his reputation if it got around he ran home to his daddy’s house because he was afraid of a gay rapist.

    It strikes me that if she’s vague or changes her story about the phone call, it would be more to protect herself than out of loyalty to TM.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  451. Telling Trayvon to kick that creepy-ass cracka’s ass, resulted in his death it did. For this, guilty she feels.

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  452. Sorry. Forgot to close the tag.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  453. 419 ropelight: You can quote Sammy, but you can’t claim his statement is a direct quote from Rachael Jeantel’s trial testimony unless it is

    It isn’t. Its a condensed paraphrase, but she did basically say that. She didn’t say GZ spoke harshly but gave his alleged exact words. It’s after the first 15 minute break. I can’t find a transcript anywhere of more than several lines, but I’ll try to find video tomorrow and listen again and link it.

    BTW, here’s she’s being coached about what was said at the end by BDLR *not Crump) during a deposition before trial:

    http://patdollard.com/2013/06/bombshell-crime-zimmerman-prosecutor-caught-suborning-perjury-transcript-of-deposition-suggest-zimmerman-prosecutors-fed-phony-story-to-trayvon-girlfriend/

    It actually is incoherent here.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  454. Wasn’t her excuse for not attending the funeral that she didn’t want too see somebody dead that she knew?

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  455. I mean, her second, new improved excuse – the first being that she was in the hospital. The real reason being, she wasn’t close to him – and probably hadn’t even talked to him that night, and would have no real reason for showing up.

    She invented the hospital reason because she thought she needed a really, really, good excuse for missing the funeral.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  456. Being that she was notionally Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend, per Benjamin Crump – a claim later retracted. She testified at the trial she was not.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bdfc8)

  457. Sammy,

    It’s my understanding that Jeantel told Trayvon’s family that she didn’t attend his funeral because she was in or at the hospital, but that wasn’t true. She was asked at trial why she lied and I think she said it was because she felt guilty, but she also said she didn’t go to the funeral because she doesn’t do death and it creeps her out. In other words, her story is flexible.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  458. As for the idea of Trayvon Martin thinking, or somebody thinking, George Zimmerman was a homosexual rapist, I have a feeling they lifted that from me. I should have the copyright on that. Benjamin Crump and/or Rachel Jeantel or her adviser(s) stole my idea.

    I said it here first.

    http://patterico.com/2012/03/26/report-trayvon-martin-was-the-aggressor-according-to-the-evidence/

    Comment number 879:

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (5736b6) — 3/29/2012 @ 6:14 pm

    879.Trayvon Martin probably thought George Zimmerman was a pedophile.

    Like Jerry Sandusky.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (5736b6) — 3/29/2012 @ 6:16 pm

    But now I think a better theory is TM thought GZ was a gang leader, when he saw the red shirt and the cell phone.

    Sammy Finkelman (982d84)

  459. Red shirt I wear. Cell phone I have. Makes me a gang leader, it does not!

    Yoda (127915)

  460. Comment by Steve57 (15e538) — 7/16/2013 @ 7:07 pm

    Steve, it’s only a crime if you’re a straight white-guy.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  461. 453

    I’ll be the first to say I don’t know what Jeantel is really like, but why do you think she cared about Trayvon enough to feel guilty?

    You don’t have to know someone well (or at all) to feel guilt if you think you contributed to their death.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  462. Observer, as far back as #355 I asked you the following question:

    Observer, have you commented here recently using a different name? If so, what name?

    Comment by ropelight (e74c7d) — 7/16/2013 @ 1:34 pm

    That question has been repeated and several other comments have called your identity into question. Are you going to answer or are you going to perpetuate the fraud ad nauseam like PerryGramps2 did with changing names and different IP addresses. (closing in on 20)

    ropelight (ac0d4d)

  463. Say what you will about Rachel Jeantel, but she shares no guilt for TraMar’s death. In fact, if we can credit her testimony, she’s the one who told him to run. Which, had he followed her advice, GZ wouldn’t have been put in fear for his life, twice.

    ropelight (ac0d4d)

  464. Sometimes people say they feel guilty because they regret some action they should have done, and realize that their action or inaction caused harm to someone else.

    Sometimes people say they feel guilty because they have an irrational emotional response to someone else’s death, also called “survivor’s guilt.”

    And, sometimes people say they feel guilty because they think it’s what they are supposed to say and they want the social credit for saying they feel what they imagine others think they ought to feel.

    Which of these do you think is most likely to be Ms. Jeantel’s reason?

    Pious Agnostic (c45233)

  465. OK, PA, I’ll play.

    Rachel Jeantel feels guilty because she initially lied to TraMar’s mother, the mother’s corrupt attorneys, and the state’s prosecutors, and got herself deep in hot water way over her head.

    She was stuck, caught on tape, with a bogus narrative, shaped for their own nefarious purposes by lawyers Crump, Parks, and Jackson, so Jeantel tried to hide, make excuses for not showing up where reporters and investigators might get at her.

    She knew her story couldn’t stand up to close examination and she’d be exposed before the whole nation as a liar, so she laid low. On the stand she couldn’t deliver for the prosecution, she was supposed to be the hammer that nailed GZ’s coffin closed, but instead she was forced to open the door which revealed exactly what a gross travesty of justice was unfolding.

    So Jeantel feels guilty, because she is guilty, not of killing TraMar, but of being unable to help railroad an innocent man. That’d be number 3.

    ropelight (ac0d4d)

  466. Commenters who do not use a consistent name, and/or who use a proxy to post, are subject to banning.

    The specific rule you continue to violating, and have admitted to actively and knowingly violating, is right there next to “Submit Comment”, every time you post more of your hyper-partisan fact-free truth-averse bibble babble.

    JD (b63a52)

  467. Another essay on Angela Corey. If half of this is true, she’s a Republican the GOP shouldn’t support.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  468. Three things:
    1.Skittles + Arizona iced tea + Robutussin =”Drank” or “Lean” a highly intoxicating drink promoted by gangsta rappers and Pimp C was killed by it. It can cause a psychotic break. Dr. Drew and many others know about this and still let the “child with candy and a drink” lie persist. About as innocent as the photoshopped hoodie picture. Which the Martins knew was not him when they attached it to the “Justice for Trayvon” campaign.
    2. A “Cracker” is a slaveowner who cracked a whip on a slave. Randy Newman wrote “Louisiana” which states “ain’t it a shame what the river done done to these poor Cracker’s land.” Aaron Nevile changed it to poor people’s land when he sang it.
    3. I resent my tax dollars paying thousands of dollars to send protesters to Sanford with their patented “Justice for Trayvon” slogan by the Dept.of Justice, who is supposed to represent us all.

    Sherron (2d5117)

  469. The Stand Your Ground law AG Eric Holder wants to eliminate? It disproportionately helps Florida’s blacks.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  470. Dana @ 420:

    Dana, you might have missed it, but when suddenly my submissions did not post, I emailed Patterico twice for an explanation. He did not reply, so I figured something unintended happened, so experimented with a new name, which worked. Note that the same thing happened to ropelight and a few other regulars. This then repeated again with the new name, so I’ve now ended up with more names so I can participate here. I was not trying to change names to be deceptive.

    Observer (c22f08)

  471. I suspect that someone who has administrative access, like JD as an example, is playing games with me. Whatever, it hasn’t worked.

    Observer (c22f08)

  472. More lies, Perry. You are in moderation, and continue to try to get around it. I posted the email from the site host that explained exactly why you are in moderation, as well as directly refuting your LIE that Patt never responded.

    JD (b63a52)

  473. Lying troll is lying.

    SPQR (768505)

  474. totally unexpected and unprecedented…

    lying liars lie: who could have foreseen this?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  475. regarding St Thug Life’s “lean” habit: you don’t have to have prescription cough syrup containing codeine to get high. regular OTC cough syrup, that he could by most anywhere will produce intoxication if consumed in excess of standard dosing.

    the side effects? pretty much like PCP or ketamine, as well as long term brain damage to those who take it all the time, as his texts seem to indicate our hero did.

    In very large quantities, DXM can cause effects similar to those of ketamine or PCP, because DXM affects similar sites in the brain. Ketamine and PCP are called “dissociative” drugs, which means they create feelings of being detached from oneself or the environment, and they distort perceptions and emotions.

    Other effects of DXM abuse can include impaired motor function, numbness, nausea and vomiting, and increased heart rate and blood pressure. On rare occasions, hypoxic brain damage can occur. That means little or no oxygen can get to the brain.

    see http://teens.drugabuse.gov/drug-facts/dextromethorphan-dxm-and-cold-medicine-facts

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  476. Red,

    The problem has gotten so severe here, that most businesses have placed cough syrup that contains DM behind the counter, and since it usually contains alcohol, require photo ID and over 18yoa.

    peedoffamerican (c1642d)

  477. Oops, I date myself with 18yoa, should say 21yoa.

    peedoffamerican (127915)

  478. Where is there any indication that Trayvon Martin, or anyone he knew in Sanford, had any cough syrup, or that he took such a drug? The thing that he had maybe – was iced tea, which is just one way of getting water.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  479. Perry’s completely dishonest comment at #484 is so transparently at odds with clearly established and widely known facts as to be a parody of itself and a pretty clear indication we’re dealing with a pathological liar. (And, I’m using that term in the clinical sense.)

    Perry knew exactly why his comments wouldn’t immediately post, he was placed in moderation and had been notified by Patterico via personal email, yet Perry continues to pretend he emailed Patterico twice for an explanation. He did not reply, so I figured something unintended happened, so experimented with a new name, which worked.

    The verifiable truth is that Patterico did notify Perry, but unwilling to accept moderation he violated the consistent name and proxy IP address rules by assuming a new identity and commenting from a different IP address.

    Perry’s next lie is that the same thing happened to ropelight and a few other regulars. Which is simply not true, Perry attempts to conflate his devious circumvention of the rules with my comments getting filtered for about 90 minutes because my comment mentioned his moderated name (Gramps2). Stash and JD identified the problem, fixed it, and my comments quickly posted normally.

    Lastly, Perry claims he was not trying to change names to be deceptive. No, he was deceptively changing names to circumvent moderation, and to defy Patterico’s decision.

    Let’s examine Perry’s reaction to being caught in a lie. (For a pathological liar, to be flat-out busted is one of the worst things that can happen.) They become extremely defensive and fall back on a string of tactics designed to shift blame or redefine the situation. First Perry attempts to pin the blame on Patterico for failing to notify him, or on me for exposing him, or on JD for identifying his multiple screen names, or on Hube for provoking his threats.

    Next he quickly fabricates additional lies to cover up the original lie, attempting to keep what he regards as his good reputation intact. However, as the lies become ever more obviously self-serving and further and further divorced from the known facts they expand and multiply becoming ever more transparent.

    The next stage in the pathological liar’s bag of tricks involves rage and anger at being outed. Vindictive outbursts bordering on outright threats of retaliation and revenge, possibly alternating with bouts of remorse complete with crocodile tears and pleas for forgiveness are not unknown. Pathological liars have even been known to stage emotional meltdowns where they attempt to bond with their accusers as the only ones who actually care about them, it’s always about them.

    ropelight (3b089b)

  480. ropelight, no one here believes Perry. No one.

    SPQR (768505)

  481. More IP’s. Shocking. Perry is just doing his patriotic duty to point out the anger, hatred, and racisms of anyone that dare disagree with him.

    JD (32eeec)

  482. Perry wastes enough bandwidth all by himself. If Patterico won’t ban him, just ignore him.

    nk (875f57)

  483. Ah, he got around the ban, JD.

    nk (875f57)

  484. You did not note that you missed Patterico’s email. You accused him of lying, after having accused him of not responding. When I posted the text of the email, you accused me of lying, where’s the evidence? As rope light and Hube pointed out, your self serving history distorting version of your threats to contact his employer was grossly inaccurate, you didnt even get the basic timeline correct. And, despite your knowledge of why you are in moderation, you continue to flaunt Patterico’s rules. But, I think the cherry on top of he sundae was you noting that your threats, which by your metric served to limit Hube’s exercise of his 1st Amendment rights, were a net positive for Hube.

    By the way, continuing to insult the host and DRJ in your comments, and continuing to break the rules are lousy ways to get un-moderated.

    Buh-bye

    JD (32eeec)

  485. Part of it is seeing lies in everything I say.

    Given that they are about as plentiful as craters on the moon, it would be difficult to miss them.

    Chuck Bartowski (25922b)

  486. You are obsessed, ropelight! Get over it.

    Said the person who keeps changing his name and IP address to get around filters at a place where he adds nothing of substance to the discussions.

    Are you taking Irony supplements, Perry?

    Chuck Bartowski (25922b)

  487. From our host’s e-mail to Perry:

    (Y)ou are moderated, not banned, until you recognize the problem with contacting employers regarding speech on the Internet. . . . If and when you acknowledge that it is inappropriate to contact employers regarding Internet speech, which you admit you have done, the moderation will end.

    Now, while Hube stated that Perry had only threatened to call his employer, and not actually done so (as far as he can tell), our honored host has provided the condition which would remove Perry from automatic moderation. There was no quibble in what our host wrote, there were no ambiguous terms, just a simple condition.

    Simply put, Perry controls the key to removing himself from automatic moderation! He would not have to try use multiple IP addresses and names, he would not have to violate the site’s terms and conditions, if only he could bring himself to take that step. I am perplexed as to why he has been thus far unwilling to do so.

    The Dana scratching his head (3e4784)

  488. Mr Bartowski, I believe that those are irony suppositories, not supplements. :lol:

    The amused Dana (3e4784)

  489. Dana – he can’t do that. As he told us, he thinks it was a positive for Hube.

    JD (b63a52)

  490. In the meantime, our oh-so-noble friends on the left have been attempting to “out” Sister Toldjah’s real name. It is their operating assumption that Sis won’t say the things she does if her real name — and her employment — can be connected to her words. (She has posted her photograph in public previously.)

    I have never met Sis, and have no idea what she does professionally or where she works. Being named might not make any difference, or it could cost her her job . . . and Sis, while self-supporting, is still an ordinary, working class American who can’t afford to lose her job.

    That’s how our friends on the left operate: when they can’t win their arguments, shutting down the opposition through intimidation or legal action (ask Aaron Worthing about this) is where they go. Considering how our honored President won his first elections, to become state senator and then a United States senator, this isn’t much of a surprise.

    The not so amused Dana (3e4784)

  491. People here are intimately aware of the Leftist tactics, Dana

    JD (b63a52)

  492. For my attempt to explain why Perry is incapable of accepting the option Patterico offered and instead began deceptively circumventing the rules on using consistent names and IP addresses and lying to cover his tracks, see the last 3 paragraphs in my comment at #493 above on the tactics commonly used by pathological liars.

    Accepting the offered option requires that Parry explicitly admit threatening to inform to Hube’s employer was wrong and Perry can’t admit he was wrong. He can dance around it, he can admit he made mistakes or some other weasel worded construction we’ve seen other pathological liars use when caught. Famous and infamous names come quickly to mind: Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, Baghdad Bob, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Eric Holder, John Edwards, Eliot Spitzer, Lois Lerner, Rachel Jeantel, etc, etc, etc.

    Pathological liars can’t fess up, it just ain’t in the cards. Perry is either 80 years old or close to it, and he’s so far gone that professional therapy just wouldn’t be cost-effective (Awhile back I mentioned he needed professional help, but in rethinking the observation I realize it’s much too late and he’s not about to admit his addiction anyway, which is a necessary precondition to successful treatment.) So,given his advanced age and personal inclinations professional help is not really a viable option.

    Additionally, he’s apparently incapable of learning from his mistakes. He keeps on repeating the same destructive behavioral patterns expecting different results. That’s a textbook definition of an entrenched disorder. So, lets face it, he not only isn’t going to get any better, his disorder is only going to get worse.

    ropelight (3b089b)

  493. This seems to fit more with this post. Obama on Zimmerman case now:

    “Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago”

    The video is actually interesting as well as Obama’s justifications for high crime in the black neighborhoods.

    ratbeach (f5aad4)

  494. In 1978, Barack Obama – then called Barry – was living in Hawaii, not Chicago.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  495. Where is there any indication that Trayvon Martin, or anyone he knew in Sanford, had any cough syrup, or that he took such a drug? The thing that he had maybe – was iced tea, which is just one way of getting water.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 7/19/2013 @ 3:27 am

    It’s founded on a Hell of a lot stronger evidence than your dumb cockamamie theory of gangs! After all, he did have TWO of the THREE ingredients on his person. Maybe he already had the cough syrup at home.

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  496. This is Zimmerman walking thru the neighborhood and describing what led up to the shooting to the police the day after. His head and facial injuries are quite noticeable–including a bruise on the temple.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X_2NeMrGCvg

    elissa (1d7424)

  497. #510, plus the text messages and images stored on TraMar’s phone and those he sent to others included many references to both pot and Purple Drank along with guns and violent assaults. Which paint a picture of Saint Skittles which conflicts directly with the sanitized and carefully manicured but entirely bogus construct created for media distribution.

    TraMar was a habitual drug user and was well familiar with hip-hop culture’s easily available and wildly popular highly dissociative drug concoction. He so wanted two of Purple Drank’s components on that fateful night that he willingly walked to a 711 in the rain to get them.

    These exculpatory texts and images were recovered from TraMar’s phone but withheld from defense lawyers during discovery and remained unavailable to them till the IT employee in the prosecutor’s office blew the whistle on Angela Corey’s malfeasance. She fired him on the same day the jury found GZ not guilty. Now, he’s bringing a suit against her for wrongful termination.

    ropelight (d228fd)

  498. I thought he was fired the day they went into deliberations.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  499. I was sure till you questioned it, now I’m not so sure. I’ll check it out

    ropelight (d228fd)

  500. Also, posted on the other thread…

    If you want Perry thoroughly banned or in permanent moderation, I will put in the time to make it happen. I despise dishonest and dishonorable commenters. Perry embodies both traits. Insulting DRJ puts him beyond the pale. Just say the word and he’ll have to move to another state to get through the filters.

    One hour or 100 hours, whatever it takes.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  501. Stash, you’re right, thanks for the correction.

    Attorney Angela Corey fired the information technology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case.

    On the same day attorneys finished their closing arguments in that nationally watched trial, a state attorney investigator went to Ben Kruidbos’ home about 7:30 a.m. to hand-deliver a letter stating Kruidbos “can never again be trusted to step foot in this office.”

    The letter contended Kruibos did a poor job overseeing the information technology department, violated public records law for retaining documents, and noted he was questioned in March when the office was trying to determine who had leaked personnel information obtained through a computer breach.

    ropelight (d228fd)

  502. I’m just wondering why they waited until that exact moment to fire him. Maybe Sammy knows? ;)

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  503. Stash, clearly your #515 is addressed to Patterico, but if it’s up vote…

    ropelight (d228fd)

  504. “their employment”

    EPWJ (016f5f)

  505. BTW, Perry lives near Cape Henlopen on the Delaware coast which puts him only about 50 miles as the crow flies from the Maryland border. I’d block him in both states. Just sayin’

    ropelight (d228fd)

  506. 518. Perry who? The platypus? Never heard of ‘im.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  507. Start your day off right with these 50 seconds…

    http://sippicancottage.blogspot.com/2013/07/ive-hired-new-life-coach-she-leads-by.html

    Colonel Haiku (355ae1)

  508. This is why ‘he’s just in over his head’ was woefully inadequate.

    narciso (3fec35)

  509. Perry keeps leaving comments in moderation, as if he thinks e can continue to comment and have his comments seen.

    I think ropelight’s analysis is correct.

    Hube, I didn’t realize you were *that* Hube! Of course I remember you. I always view that blog as a real missed opportunity. We were starting to build a head of steam and really could have done something with it.

    Patterico (47da5a)

  510. Perry must have a lot of time on his hands.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  511. He’s so obsessed with it that he spends his time writing comments that he knows will not be read.

    All he has to do to comment again is apologize appropriately. But when I say appropriately, I don’t mean the kind of apology your five year old gives when told that there will be no TV without an apology. In federal court it’s called allocution: I need a recitation of what he did wrong, and a sincere expression of regret for it.

    I am the sole judge of what is sufficient. There is no appeal.

    I put the chances that he will issue this apology at somewhere around zero percent.

    So I’m afraid Perry’s stubbornness means he is history. Since he holds the keys to this jail, it’s a self-incarceration.

    In the meantime, watching him continue to waste his time in moderation, making points nobody but me will see.

    After about one more day I will tweak the filter so his comments go straight to trash, where even I will never see them.

    Patterico (47da5a)

  512. Good decision.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  513. Hube, I didn’t realize you were *that* Hube! Of course I remember you. I always view that blog as a real missed opportunity. We were starting to build a head of steam and really could have done something with it.

    Happy to make your reacquaintance! :-) I occasionally contribute to Newsbusters now, BTW.

    Hube (4d0abc)

  514. Now he is trying to change things to get around the filter, so he can leave a comment he believes I will consider threatening to my career. (I don’t.)

    Each time he tries this, I will find a comment of his that has already appeared on this site and I will put it in moderation.

    Pardon me while I go disappear his last three comments.

    Patterico (8b1040)

  515. It is remarkable. Never ceases to amaze me.

    JD (de28a9)

  516. Boop, boop, boop, three Observer comments gone. Easy as pie.

    Easier, even. Pie is not truly very easy.

    Patterico (8b1040)

  517. I actually think it would be fairly simple to remove all his comments that ever appeared here, ever, in bulk.

    Patterico (8b1040)

  518. I actually feel sorry for the guy.

    Not that feeling sorry for him has displaced my other sentiments toward him, such as disdain.

    It’s just that to the list of descriptive terms I associate with him I’ve added “pathetic.”

    Steve57 (2dd692)

  519. I don’t feel sorry for him. He’s a smart guy and could participate in interesting conversations that would be welcome here. Unfortunately, his lack of self-discipline means his emotions eventually take over and makes any discussion with him pointless.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  520. I put the chances that he will issue this apology at somewhere around zero percent.

    That’s a very high estimation.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  521. He has shown himself to be a stalker. Frankly, I do not see how “an apology” can ever mitigate that.

    elissa (fd3ef0)

  522. Another vote for not feeling sorry for him.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  523. Thank you Patterico. I’d love to see him try to lay some of his Trayvon tripe over at Talkleft with Jeralyn and then watch what would happen.

    elissa (5ba741)

  524. (My ipnums will likely change frequently as I’m once again an OTR trucker, but my moniker won’t)

    If you haven’t had enough fun listening to Perry’s sick and twisted version of things, just go to adj Dana’s site, where he’s still fomenting about that evil Patterico.

    John Hitchcock (48e9f9)

  525. oops, link

    John Hitchcock (aa3e5c)

  526. congratulations on your truckings!

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  527. tricksy pie we likes it when other people do it for us

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  528. DRJ wrote:

    I don’t feel sorry for him. He’s a smart guy and could participate in interesting conversations that would be welcome here. Unfortunately, his lack of self-discipline means his emotions eventually take over and makes any discussion with him pointless.

    An unfortunately accurate assessment.

    This site has some pretty good liberal commenters, aphrael and Leviticus coming to mind quickly, along with Mr Finkelman (who doesn’t seem to always come from the left). Liberal commenters on a conservative site, and vice versa, have to have thicker skins, and not return insult-for-insult. Unfortunately, Perry does not have that ability.

    The Dana who has met Perry (af9ec3)

  529. Our honored host wrote:

    Pie is not truly very easy.

    Certainly it is! Elaine bakes a pumpkin pie, and I eat it; very easy for me. :lol:

    The sexist pig Dana (af9ec3)

  530. Liberal commenters on a conservative site, and vice versa, have to have thicker skins, and not return insult-for-insult. Unfortunately, Perry does not have that ability.

    Liberal commenters tend to get piled on at any conservative site, including mine. When they appear to be arguing honestly and in good faith, I do my best to protect them and to rein in commenters who attack them. I am often accused of allowing “trolls” to populate the site, when I believe they are often simply responding in kind, insult for insult. While that does not lead to a productive discussion, I understand it and tolerate it.

    Perry is in a different situation. First of all, Perry has demonstrated by his own admissions that in the past he has engaged in acts that any reasonable person would view as an implicit threat to somebody’s livelihood. He constantly accuses me of relying on ropelight’ for my assessment in this regard, without is completely false, because I have Perry’s own admissions to rely on with respect to this issue. That caused me to put him in moderation. Now he has been banned because he falsely accused JD of lying and has not apologized. He has compounded the problem by actively trying to get around the filter in order to leave a comment that he considers to be threatening to my career.

    In short, Perry shown himself to be a man utterly without honor, and someone who is not welcome at this blog.

    Patterico (9c2fea)

  531. Don’t mistake me for a soft touch. I have nothing but disdain for empty-headed kneejerk liberalism and contempt for his congenital dishonesty. I just happen to agree with ropelight’s analysis that we’re looking at an entrenched disorder of some sort.

    It’s comparable to how I’d describe some drunks who are blackballed from their old haunts. They’d try to come around and sneak in for “just one,” they’d promise. I felt a twinge of sorrow for them when the owner would make them go away, but I sure as hell wasn’t going to give them the money I knew they were going to be hanging around to ask me for when I left.

    Like Perry, they did it to themselves.

    Steve57 (2dd692)

  532. Pie is good. :)

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  533. Pie are square.

    John Hitchcock (48e9f9)

  534. I know this isn’t the kind of pie you guys had in mind, but I haven’t eaten lunch yet and now I’m jonesing for Shepherd’s pie.

    There’s an English pub not far from hear that has it. I may have to stop by for a Scotch Egg and some Shepherd’s pie.

    Steve57 (2dd692)

  535. Heh. I said allocation when I meant allocution. What a maroon.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  536. I blame my iPhone.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  537. Is his name really “Perry?”

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  538. Read carefully, and all will be revealed.

    ropelight (93ce67)

  539. He has shown himself to be a stalker. Frankly, I do not see how “an apology” can ever mitigate that.

    My offer is devious: I don’t think it’s within Perry’s ability to comply. It’s like saying: we’ll let the hungry tiger in the house if we put him next to this recently killed zebra and he doesn’t touch it for three days.

    It’s not unfair to Perry, because everyone has free will and he COULD choose to apologize and allocute.

    But I know he won’t. So we needn’t worry about whether an apology would really make up for what he’s done. Because he’s not really going to do it. I’m very, very confident about that.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  540. I don’t share your confidence Patterico, I’ve dealt with Perry longer than you have, and while we agree he lacks the ability to comply with the terms of your offer, his overarching need to defy authority and exonerate himself is likely to compel him to display the appearance of compliance now in order to spit in your face later.

    This ain’t my first rodeo.

    ropelight (93ce67)

  541. Good site you have here.. It’s hard to find excellent writing like yours these days. I truly appreciate people like you! Take care!!

    we can help (941844)


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