Patterico's Pontifications

12/21/2011

The payroll tax kerfuffle: Political impact?

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 8:12 am



[Posted by Karl]

The Wall Street Journal is upset at the way the House GOP is botching the extension of the current payroll tax cut:

The GOP leaders have somehow managed the remarkable feat of being blamed for opposing a one-year extension of a tax holiday that they are surely going to pass. This is no easy double play.

Republicans have also achieved the small miracle of letting Mr. Obama position himself as an election-year tax cutter, although he’s spent most of his Presidency promoting tax increases and he would hit the economy with one of the largest tax increases ever in 2013. This should be impossible.

House Republicans yesterday voted down the Senate’s two-month extension of the two-percentage-point payroll tax holiday to 4.2% from 6.2%. They say the short extension makes no economic sense, but then neither does a one-year extension. No employer is going to hire a worker based on such a small and temporary decrease in employment costs, as this year’s tax holiday has demonstrated. The entire exercise is political, but Republicans have thoroughly botched the politics.

Stereotypical Democrat partisans like the WaPo’s Greg Sargent (and the folks at CNN) credit “Obama’s new populist offensive, including the pressure on Republicans over the payroll tax cut,” for the president’s current bounce in the polls.  NYT number-cruncher Nate Silver isn’t so sure:

I would suggest that another explanation is much more plausible: Mr. Obama’s improved approval ratings reflect rising economic expectations.

Silver notes that — for now, at least — the topline unemployment rate is down (albeit with troubling details), ” housing starts are up, retail sales figures have been reasonably good, and various regional and national manufacturing indexes are generally coming in above expectations.”  Moreover, Gallup’s economic confidence index has at least crawled back to where it was before the debt ceiling fight.  Silver then turns to the payroll tax tussle:

This debate over interpreting Mr. Obama’s approval ratings has some implications for the current argument in Congress over the payroll tax cut. If you believe that his improved ratings reflect his outmaneuvering Congress, then perhaps it is to his benefit if the argument extends on past the new year. But if you believe instead that the ratings have more to do with improved economic confidence, this could be a dangerous game. Even if the tax cuts are eventually extended, as seems likely, a temporary decline in Americans’ take-home pay in January would nevertheless represent a disruptive influence at the very moment that Americans are starting to believe in the economy again.

Given that presidents get blamed for bad economies, even under divided government, the Democrats chortling today might want to look at the bigger picture.  But they probably won’t, given their unproven belief that policy uncertainty is not a drag on economic recovery.

–Karl

449 Responses to “The payroll tax kerfuffle: Political impact?”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f07e38)

  2. The entire exercise is political, but Republicans have thoroughly botched the politics

    In 2008, I posited that Barack Obama’s political superpower was that he somehow induced his opponents to self-destruct. The Republican performance on the payroll tax debate strikes me as supporting the hypothesis.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  3. I figure they just ‘massaged’ the numbers, like they usually do.

    narciso (87e966)

  4. Aphrael – made even easier with a sycophantic MFM.

    JD (269dac)

  5. Morning Joke, to a person, now three years later,
    admitted they were all in the tank for Obama, but somehow Hillary should have worked around it,

    narciso (87e966)

  6. And, again, move the rate to 5.2% this year so that going back to 6.2% in 2013 isn’t such a jump. The hit that Social Security is taking here will be the main campaign issue in 2012; no one expects the rate to stay at 4.2% forever and the seniors are going to get mighty pissed off soon.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  7. I’m not feeling this whole thing really. I’d be happiest if nothing got done.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  8. Santorum-I’m for Income Inequality

    Lefty to accuse him of hating the poor in 5…4…3…2..1…

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  9. Leftys to accuse Santorum of being an anti-muslim white supremacist as well in 5..4..3…2…1…

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  10. Let me get this straight if the republicans support the tax cut being extended for the middle class for a year they are doing it for the rich.

    I swear you can’t win whether you pander to the left or not.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  11. Let Obama and the Dems demodog the issue. The economy, unfortunately, is not improving. Unemployment numbers are skewed due to increase of the retail sales jobs normally available this time of year.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  12. What would Perryman do?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  13. If you oppose this your being manipulated by the rich.

    If you support this your being manipulated by the rich.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  14. It’s not the easiest argument to make, and Lord knows the average congressman probably can’t make a coherent argument to begin with, but I think the House Republicans ought to be saying something along the lines of the following: The payroll tax cut is not making any appreciable difference in employment, and it is taking money out of the Social Security system at a time when we can least afford it. I know we live in a cynical world, but this is an opportunity for the GOP to demonstrate that they really do take fiscal discipline seriously, while Obama and the Dems are happy to have an election year pander which will have to be paid for down the road.

    JVW (4d72aa)

  15. I don’t get how anybody can evaluate this without coming to the conclusion that Obama looks feckless and dishonest.

    He wanted a year. Dems gave him two months. He blames the GOP.

    MayBee (081489)

  16. This amounts to approximately $19.23 per week, or $83.33 a month.

    JD (269dac)

  17. MayBee – it is all about the campaign narrative for Barcky, and his MFM buddies.

    JD (269dac)

  18. The House Republicans had a good campaign issue wit the payroll tax holiday and the XL pipeline decision. They seem to have squandered that looking for an even better deal that wasn’t there.

    Mike K (9ebddd)

  19. Kick the can, man.

    AZ Bob (7d2a2c)

  20. To whom does this apply, anyway? My son worked a minimum wage job this summer, and FICA-SSA was deducted.

    MayBee (081489)

  21. The GOP House should have drawn the line at the debt ceiling not going up.

    The fight we’re going to have is inevitable. Waffling about like this has cost the GOP a lot of the hope people placed on it when giving them another shot.

    Haiku asks what Perry would have done. Let me tell you: he would make cuts that the liberals screamed about, even sued over.

    That is the real issue we are not paying attention to. Everyone is fighting over how to pay for spending we shouldn’t have at all.

    The pipeline is a different issue, and if the GOP can’t get some mileage out of that I don’t even know what to say.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  22. Comment by MayBee — 12/21/2011 @ 9:45 am

    It’s not about eliminating the FICA deduction contribution, but reducing the size of it.

    ……………………………….

    The GOP needs to hit the Dems on how their extension of the reduced “contribution” is threatening the solvency (already up-side-down BTW) of SocSec – perhaps a TV spot of Harry Reid pushing a wheelchair-bound granny (OK, I know it would be hard to tell them apart, and Harry would probably need an O2-tank) over “Ryan’s” cliff.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  23. The GOP continues to let the purists of the right screw up what would otherwise be a winning hand.

    The mushy middle cares more about the size and security of their paycheck than they care about the size of government or the deficit. They don’t care about the particulars of how different federal spending programs are funded.

    The most critical task for whomever the GOP nominee is will be to reassure the mushy middle that their lives will be better – and immediately so – if Obama loses.

    Raising taxes because the extension isn’t long enough? Stupid. Raising taxes because the ‘cuts’ aren’t funded by spending cuts? Stupid. (on the other hand, opposing raising taxes on other people isn’t stupid as you can draw a line between that and diminished incentives to hire).

    As much as the purists hate to hear it, they are in the minority. Much of what they want scares the very people whose votes are needed to win. The more they get of what they want in kerfuffles such as this, the more they’re going to scare the voters and the more likely Obama will win next November. The purists have a choice: stay on their side of the line in the sand and lose… or compromise a bit and get more of what they want than if Obama were re-elected.

    steve (369bc6)

  24. Hogwash, Steve. This is not about purity, or even Team R. The House already passed a 1 year. The senate controlled by the Dems came up with 2 months.

    JD (269dac)

  25. Right, Steve, they sign on to Dodd Frank, which doesn’t work in the first crisis that comes up, MF Global.ditto for Sarbanes Oxley, neither does Obamacare,

    narciso (87e966)

  26. JD, never interject with the facts when the intended recipient of your enlightenment is in the throes of withdrawal. His overconsumption of Teh Narrative has burned-out all of those neural receptors.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  27. Newt wants the argument off-the-table, because it will detract from the message attacking Obama that the GOP Presidential aspirants need to be pushing – and which he is.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  28. The Republican House passed a year-long holiday, the Democrat Senate cut it by nearly 85%. Just tweet that over and over.

    AJsDaddie (27f0de)

  29. The mushy middle cares more about the size and security of their paycheck than they care about the size of government or the deficit. They don’t care about the particulars of how different federal spending programs are funded.

    So we should just be ‘smart’ and ignore the deficit, playing short term games the way Obama is?

    And long term, what will that do to the GOP?

    Well, we already freakin’ know. The GOP should have focused like a laser on the deficit in 2000. Had they balanced that budget, and I know it wouldn’t have been easy, then the GOP would be doing really well today. The economy would probably be roaring along, too. I doubt Obama would even be President.

    But short term, they would have paid a political price.

    Anyway, it seems like the dems are the ones playing the games here. The GOP’s mistake is trying to play along.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  30. Well we were told in 1997, that Clinton had balanced the budget, he was using Raine’s ‘Enron
    accounting’ and ‘compassionate conservatism’ which
    was the coin of the realm, demanded that more spending continue.

    narciso (87e966)

  31. steve,

    I get your concern — and that of the WSJ — but I’m not sure I buy it. No matter how much the GOP pandered on eductaion and Medicare in the 2000s, they almost never enjoyed an advantage on those issues over Dems. Conversely, no matter how much Dems pretend to be tax-cutters, the public ain’t buying it. A case could be made — as Rove did for Medicare Part D — that it helped with key demos in swing states (though that’s still debatable). But I haven’t seen any data like that on the payroll tax extension (yet).

    Karl (f07e38)

  32. AD-RtR/OS!- thanks.

    Hey! Why doesn’t the Prezzie just say “Hey, don’t worry people. If this expires then I’ll make sure the IRS finds a way to refund any overpaid FICA once it passes”

    MayBee (081489)

  33. This is from Ann Compton at Political Punch:

    White House spokesman Jay Carney called the vote the only way to give both sides time to complete work on a full year-extension of the payroll tax cut.

    “The president reiterated the need and his commitment to work with Congress to extend the payroll tax cut for the entire year,” Carney said, reading from a prepared statement. “The fact that the short-term bipartisan compromise passed by almost the entire Senate is the only option to ensure that middle-class families aren’t hit with a tax hike in 10 days.”

    Obama also phoned Senate Majority leader Harry Reid to reaffirm his committment to negotiate a year-long deal.

    How is that not Obama = Feckless?

    MayBee (081489)

  34. No matter how much the GOP pandered on eductaion and Medicare in the 2000s, they almost never enjoyed an advantage on those issues over Dems.

    It really is hard to understand what the RINOs expect to gain, long term, from this kind of thing.

    Anyone who really finds those arguments appealing is going to find the democrats more appealing.

    It’s like starting the argument from a position of apologizing. It’s timid, hoping you don’t scare everyone off with conservative principles, which sends a powerful message the the GOP is wrong.

    Romney promised half a trillion in additional medicare over Obama, back when he was saying Perry was going to abolish social security, which really convinced me how I was going to see the rest of the primary. We need leadership, not ninjistu politics dodging reality like it’s an obstacle.

    We’re out of money and need to spend less. If the GOP acts like this isn’t so serious, the democrats will take full advantage of how much of the argument we are conceding.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  35. “We need leadership, not ninjistu [???] politics dodging reality like it’s an obstacle”

    Looks like Perry needs some help raising Texans out of poverty. Terrible numbers tell a woefully awful story.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  36. The House Republicans should not budge – first off, Americans are not stupid – why didnt the senate do the whole year?

    Duh!

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  37. Ninjistu refers to politicians trying to jump back and forth around issues just to win elections, instead of standing on principles and letting the voters decide.

    For example, Romney’s efforts to argue for Obamacare and against Obamacare. He praised Obamacare for being like Romneycare in how it gets people who don’t want health insurance to buy it with what he calls “incentives” which Romney fans deny is a euphemism for the individual mandate because hey, Romney also claims he doesn’t think the mandate is right for the entire country.

    That kind of thing.

    He’s already conceded so much of the argument about Obamacare.

    You think Texas’s economic record is a “woefully awful story”, Haiku, and I think that is simply because you want people to vote Romney. It has nothing to do with reality. I think Texas is not perfect, but the government isn’t trying to create utopia. It’s staying out of the way and letting prosperity happen somewhat organically. Yes, this means the government is allowing some things to happen that liberals like Romney would probably want to use government to fix.

    It’s just a typical difference in ideology, and I disagree with the technocrat’s unrealistic desire to rid the world of problems via big-ass government.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  38. You think Texas’s economic record is a “woefully awful story”, Haiku, and I think that is simply because you want people to vote Romney. It has nothing to do with reality

    I want people to make their own decisions about who they should vote for. I’m against cheerleaders with a propensity for the propagation of disinformation and propaganda.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  39. What kind of person actually trashes the best real world example of conservatism working, just to get their favorite guy nominated? Someone who is motivated by something other than ideology, or a liberal.

    Moaning about how a smaller government is not doing enough for the poor, as the economy creates far more jobs than the states with big government is really denying the entire concept of limited government.

    That Texas is getting out of the way of job creations IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING FOR THE POOR. You have to get one of those jobs in order to improve your conditions, instead of cry for California or MA style government, which would just stifle the jobs.

    But at least we can see the different of opinion between a Perry and a Romney supporter on this core view of the role of government. People have a great choice. Romney and Perry are very far apart on policy.

    One believes in small government and consistency, and the other believes in intrusive government and prime time slick talk flip flops.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  40. Poor is poor, wherever one lives. Perry has a knack for enriching himself and his cronies.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  41. Perry is adept at getting out of the way of those who have purchased access to the bidness of Texas.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  42. The GOP should have focused like a laser on the deficit in 2000. Had they balanced that budget, and I know it wouldn’t have been easy, then the GOP would be doing really well today.

    Not to pick on Dustin, but this is an example of an unrealistic perspective. ‘Had’ they balanced the budget? How? With their (non) filibuster-proof majority in the Senate? With a whole bunch of Republicans who weren’t interested in balancing the budget, at least not if it meant cutting any of their sacred cows?

    Things are no different today. There is NO consensus on balancing the budget anytime soon (btw, the same holds for tax ‘reform’). Heck, there isn’t even a consensus within the Tea Part as to how to go about doing it. Neither side has the votes to ram anything over the other side’s objections (and even if the GOP were to sweep the table come November, they wouldn’t have an ideologically consistent majority, at least not if they’re counting on Snowe, Collins, McCain and Brown. Unlike the Democrats, the GOP is all over the map).

    Given this, the only thing the GOP should hope for is to make incremental progress and in a conservative direction. They need to avoid scaring the mushy middle (given Obama’s entire strategy is to paint the GOP as scary and crazy, why would the GOP want to do anything that wrote the script for Obama? Yes, I know, because the purists think they’re on the side of the angels)

    Karl: the critical task for the GOP is to not put themselves in a position where they can get blamed (even unfairly) for someone’s paycheck going down… and true to form, they’re failing in this battle. Note that it doesn’t matter if their side is stronger philosophically, all that matters is that they’ve left themselves exposed to the charge that it is their fault taxes are going up in January.. and it doesn’t help when supposed conservatives like McCain are lining up with the Democrats to blame the crazies in the House (Obama speech: “When even solid conservatives like John McCain and Scott Brown decry the out of control House, the nation can’t afford to give even more power to the lunatic fringe” The stuff writes itself).

    steve (369bc6)

  43. Rush on Romney…
    “Someone said that he’s in over-his-hair!”

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  44. steve: the critical task for the GOP is to not put themselves in a position where they can get blamed (even unfairly) for someone’s paycheck going down

    How?

    I’m willing to bet January 1 will see more people’s paychecks going down (and by a larger amount) because of increased insurance premiums, regardless of what happens with FICA.

    MayBee (081489)

  45. like Dan Shelley, Balfour Beatty, UBS, etc..

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  46. “For example, Romney’s efforts to argue for Obamacare and against Obamacare.”

    Dustin – I have no idea how you can continue to propagate this blatantly false meme. Romney has pledged to repeal Obamacare on Day 1 if elected or grant every state a waiver. Your blatant misinterpretation of a 2010 video clip does not represent arguing for Obamacare. Patterico asked people to get along, but your comment is an outright lie. Obamacare is a national healthcare program centrally controlled by the federal government. Romney has specifically said he believes the federal government should stay out of the matter.

    I don’t know how much more definitive an argument you can make that he is against Obamacare than that, but please do and try to be truthful this time.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  47. oops!

    MayBee (081489)

  48. “Romney promised half a trillion in additional medicare over Obama”

    Dustin – Here’s another good one. Was this something Romney pointed out to counter the Dem argument that Republicans were trying to destroy Medicare? That it was really the Dems who were destroying Medicare by pulling half a trillion out and that plans like Ryan’s preserved it for people 55 or over?

    Answer that and try to be truthful.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  49. Watch the Sultans of Smear in action again at Pattericos Pontifications!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. “like Dan Shelley, Balfour Beatty, UBS, etc..”

    Don’t forget Jimmy Lee!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  51. Goddam truth has been wearing it’s pants for months and yet the fellow keeps spreading his disinformation/manure.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  52. Dustin – Here’s another good one. Was this something Romney pointed out to counter the Dem argument that Republicans were trying to destroy Medicare? That it was really the Dems who were destroying Medicare by pulling half a trillion out and that plans like Ryan’s preserved it for people 55 or over?

    Romney said he would “reverse” Obama’s half trillion dollar cut, and while he is slick enough to say things so that two different audiences can hear what they want to (laid out here), the fact is he clearly promised an additional half trillion over what Obama wants.

    I think this is a pander to those who crave more entitlement spending.

    He has criticized both Perry AND OBAMA with this rhetoric of demonizing cutting entitlements.

    By the way, there’s only one person I know of that has cut Medicare. That’s the president of the United States.”

    Yes, your point is true too, Daleyrocks. Romney is also noting that the dems are pandering somewhat insincerely. But I don’t want a leader whose argument is that he’ll do more for them on entitlements than the democrats!

    You ask me to be truthful, and this is really annoying, Daleyrocks, as I’ve laid this out to you several times and you know I’m not just creating my impression dishonestly.

    I guess I’ll to it again.

    There’s only one person I know of who has cut Medicare. That is the president of the United States. He cut it by $500 billion and put it into Obama Care, and I will turn that around. That is wrong,” Romney said. “So when you see your friends with signs that say keep your hands off our Medicare, they are absolutely right. We’ve got to vote that guy out of office.”

    Read more: http://www.wesh.com/politics/29386679/detail.html#ixzz1hCVNYjNR

    My interpretation: Romney is saying that we have to vote out of office people who cut our entitlements. Keep your hands off our entitlements, even though they are totally unsustainable.

    I have more than just Romney’s remarks to bolster this. I have Romney’s record of creating entitlements, like Romneycare, and praising Obamacare at least in part (the worst part, in my opinion), and both are not affordable at all.

    So please, even if you think I’m wrong, don’t suggest I’m not being truthful. There is nothing dishonest about interpreting the above quote as Romney pandering to prevent cuts to medicare and increase medicare by half a trillion dollars over what it’s at now.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  53. Dustin – Is the legality of a federal mandate to purchase health insurance in front of the Supreme Court or a state mandate?

    If you need help answering the question, just whistle.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  54. He cut it by $500 billion and put it into Obama Care, and I will turn that around.

    This is why I said Romney promises an additional half trillion for medicare.

    “So when you see your friends with signs that say keep your hands off our Medicare, they are absolutely right. We’ve got to vote that guy out of office.

    This is why I said Romney is saying we’ve got to keep our hands off entitlement spending and even vote out of office anyone who disagrees. This is what I consider a pander.

    Romney is slick. He’s got slick guys ready to explain how this was a more sophisticated point. Did the cheering crowd know that? Nope. They hear Romney promise half a trillion more entitlements and express outrage about “get your hands off”.

    What will Romney be like the day after he is nominated? This is what he’ll be like. He and Obama will be promising they are the centrist who will keep our social security and other entitlements safe and sound. They will express outrage at the notion of reforming them so that we aren’t borrowing sums from our own kids to fund them.

    Maybe Romney can beat Obama this way. I know I’ll vote Romney over Obama, so I can’t really say he’s not electable, can I?

    But it represents the kind of short term politics that ultimately has ruined the GOP.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  55. I think there was a pony whistle in there somewhere, daley.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  56. Dustin – Is the legality of a federal mandate to purchase health insurance in front of the Supreme Court or a state mandate?

    Yes, Daleyrocks, even Perry grants that Romneycare’s mandate is constitutional.

    This is a red herring, though.

    It is a bad idea, and a liberal idea, even if it’s constitutional.

    And isn’t this something Romneycare has in common with Obamacare? Something you can’t blame on democrats, either. Something Romney personally wanted. The individual mandate is the core of Romneycare.

    Very recently, Romney praised Obamacare for having some similarities to Romneycare. This of course, is the most controversial thing they have in comment. Romney said he likes how they both get everyone on health insurance… apparently meaning those who don’t otherwise choose to get health insurance… and used the term “incentives” to explain what he was talking about.

    I interpreted this “incentives” the way the several folks I linked did. He must be talking about the only way Obamacare and Romneycare both force an economic decision on folks.

    Now, you disagreed. You seemed to think there must be some other thing about Obamacare and Romneycare that pushes folks to get health insurance.

    I can understand why.

    After all, if Romney is praising the individual mandate in Obamacare, then this is yet another blatant flip flop for Romney to criticize that aspect now that he realizes it’s such a powerful issue.

    Personally, he’s kinda screwed in my eyes anyway, because I think the individual mandate is a terrible idea even at the state level. Do you think I’d support Perry if he had imposed such a thing over Texas? Trust me, I wouldn’t.

    Still being truthful, btw.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  57. MayBee #46: I’d love to see the GOP launch a campaign that blamed higher medical insurance payments on Obamacare and the Democrats who voted for it. And January would be a great time to launch the ads to coincide with everybody whose plan is administered on a calendar year basis having to cough up more money (to a visual of money being taken out of a man’s wallet: “Premiums increase… deductibles increase… co-pays increase… waiting times increase…. Thank you, President Obama”).

    Ah, who am I kidding, that would be a good thing so I can pretty much count on the GOP not doing it.

    steve (369bc6)

  58. The individual mandate is the core of Romneycare

    Actually, the mandate is the core of ANY program that doesn’t allow carriers to disallow coverage for prior conditions, there is no other way to guard against people waiting until they get sick before they seek – and pay for – coverage. If you don’t want people getting told ‘no’ for coverage, then you have to force them to buy it, and especially when they don’t want to.

    It doesn’t mean that it should be constitutional… or that it should be done… but you can’t get the former without the latter.

    steve (369bc6)

  59. Goddam truth has been wearing it’s pants for months and yet the fellow keeps spreading his disinformation/manure.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 11:51 am

    Jeez, dude. Just personal attacks and nonsense again?

    Someone doesn’t like Romney, so they must be a liar.

    You three need to accept that Romney is actually pretty freaking liberal in record. Romneycare is not something I would ever place on the right of the spectrum. The guy can’t just avoid his other policies with a flip flop, either. I still hold Romney accountable for the gun tax, the gun ban, the abortion rights support, the claim Roe v Wade is “good law” the 75% liberal democrats he appointed to the court (btw, the MA legislature doesn’t vote to approve). I could on and on and on.

    I am a conservative who disagrees with most of Romney’s record, and also doesn’t trust his character because his flip flops appear to be pure political calculations rather than sincere evolution of opinion.

    A huge number of folks feel this way. They are not being dishonest. Attacking us like way is not helping Romney. I guess there isn’t a better tactic available. I mean, you can’t really show me Romney being very conservative by noting he lost to the democrats on some issues.

    This problem is why Romney just can’t improve much in the polls.

    In the primary and in the general, he is not going to come across as very conservative, and he’s also not going to come across as authentic.

    We can avoid a lot of this ugliness if you just keep the argument to the policies. There is nothing to gain by forcing people to prove they are telling the truth. It’s just trolling. I doubt it’s convinced a single soul to vote Romney.

    In fact, one of my points is that this kind of thing is tearing the party apart. I also think this is a pattern of the RINO wing of the party being the one refusing to compromise or really play fair. We saw this in 2010, too.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  60. the mandate is the core of ANY program that doesn’t allow carriers to disallow coverage for prior conditions

    […]

    It doesn’t mean that it should be constitutional… or that it should be done… but you can’t get the former without the latter.

    Comment by steve — 12/21/2011 @ 12:12 pm

    Yes, you’re right. It’s not like Romney imposed the mandate or praised Obamacare’s mandate because he hates freedom. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    I realize Romney just wanted to control economic decisions, both of insurers and insurees, and this unnatural elimination of a valid form of insurance was necessary to make that happen.

    And it’s not working. Demand is skyrocketing. Prices are skyrocketing.

    This is why those who do not try to fix everything with government are, similarly, not cartoon characters. Haiku complains of the poor. It’s not like Perry hates the poor and more than Romney hates freedom. Perry just realizes that government intervenes, it won’t work.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  61. One of the problems RomneyCare is having is that even with the individual mandate, the provisions of the Act make it more attractive to not buy until you actually need coverage (like calling Allstate for auto ins as you’re waiting for the tow-truck to take you wheels to the repair shop).
    But, I guess the MA tax folks aren’t as ruthless as the IRS, and the Health Auth doesn’t have its’ own SWAT team like HSS does.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  62. I also think this is a pattern of the RINO wing of the party being the one refusing to compromise or really play fair. We saw this in 2010

    Not disagreeing, but the non-RINO side doesn’t play nice either. Knocking out a sure thing with Castle and Lowden in favor of the more pure McConnell and Angle? Had Reid not been given another six years, the GOP might not be looking so bad right now with regards to the tax cut extension.

    steve (369bc6)

  63. Oops…HSS…HHS

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  64. the non-RINO side doesn’t play nice either.

    Yes, I know this is true, but I guess I find that more understandable.

    We keep hearing of these reserved folks in the center establishment who supposedly are more reasonable when it’s time to compromise, and yet, when it’s time to compromise and support someone on the right, a lot of them go crazy. A la Murkowski and Scozzafava.

    I think this shows some hypocrisy.

    It’s not like the right rejecting a moderate isn’t also failing to compromise in many cases, but it’s more consistent to their principles than the ‘electability uber ailes’ guys are showing.

    And you have a point with the Senate. But we’re making gains and I think long term, the GOP will be a lot better off if it’s defined as a party of balancing budgets. I think that they didn’t see that in 2000-2006 (thanks Tom Delay) is a massive blunder.

    And it doesn’t escape my notice that the beltway right actually benefits a lot from a huge government.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  65. “Someone doesn’t like Romney, so they must be a liar.”

    Dustin – You keep dodging the main point. Has Romney advocated federal control of health care. Yes or no?

    For example, Romney’s efforts to argue for Obamacare and against Obamacare.

    Perry argues for the government choosing private sector winners and losers in Texas through the use of incentives and economic development funds therefore you can make the argument that he supports Obama’s extensive use of crony capitalism at the federal level. The is the same type of argument you are making about healthcare reform in Massachusetts. Features are the same so therefore Romney supports ObamaCare.

    I know Perry has specifically argued against the federal government picking private sector winners and losers and would not even bring the argument up, but he is comfortable with similar programs in his home state and presumably others. I also know Romney has specifically said he is against the feds control of health insurance.

    I can be honest about what the two people have actually said. You refuse to actually discuss what they have said. I see a difference.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. the non-RINO side doesn’t play nice either.

    “Nobody said that politics was bean-bag!”

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  67. “It is a bad idea, and a liberal idea, even if it’s constitutional.”

    Dustin – Whether or not it was a bad idea or liberal is not the issue. The issue is your claim that Romney supports ObamaCare. Please stay focused.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  68. the GOP will be a lot better off if it’s defined as a party of balancing budgets

    Only if part-and-parcel with that is a reduction in the size and scope of the Federal Govt.

    Remember Bob Dole’s nickname:

    Tax-Collector for the Welfare-State!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  69. For me, Romney’s authorship of RomneyCare, and his support for anti-2nd Amendment laws in MA, is a killer – no matter what his business acumen is.
    As a conservative first, and a Republican second, I just don’t trust the man.
    He didn’t govern as a conservative, but as a “moderate” in the NE-mode, which makes him a Rockefeller-Republican and would be another in a long line of Big-Govt Conservatives (think Compassionate Conservative GWB, and spending like that under “The Hammer” DeLay).
    If the last twelve years hasn’t taught us a lesson, then I fear that nothing will, and we might as well engage in a civil-defense drill:
    Sit down, bend forward and put your head between your legs, and kiss your a$$ Good-bye!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  70. “For me, Romney’s authorship of RomneyCare, and his support for anti-2nd Amendment laws in MA, is a killer – no matter what his business acumen is.”

    AD – I have no problems with that, what I have problems with is people making sh*t up about Romney or other Republican candidates. There seems to be a lot of that going around this year.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  71. This is why giving folks guns and heading to the range with them is one of the best forms of activism available.

    Those who will compromise our rights wind up seeming a lot less tolerable when they are rights you actually personally exercise.

    We only one bad justice away from our second amendment rights being compromised.

    One of these politicians has a terrible record on both judicial appointments and gun rights, and will he take a hard stand if he’s president and selecting Scalia’s successor? Nope. Not a chance.

    And it helps you sleep better at night, knowing your loved ones are empowered to protect themselves. Unfortunately, in MA, you will have to pony up an additional $100 gun tax. Now, Romney isn’t responsible for all of that. He just wanted it increased from $25 to $75, and thinks it’s pretty shocking the democrats would take this and one up him all the way to $100. Or maybe he wasn’t shocked, and this was part of the plan. This is how he would govern as president too. Constantly and insincerely confounded, while explaining nothing that happened on his watch is completely his fault. So what?

    When you split the baby with the left, they are never satisfied and always take it farther.

    When the GOP’s leader says he’s in support of “strong gun control” or some form of individual mandate and government health care reform and entitlement boons, guess what? That is the rightmost result possible now, and we’re going to head way to the left.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  72. Unlike the Democrats, the GOP is all over the map

    I think you would find that the Democratic party activists loathe Landrieu and Nelson every bit as much as you loathe Snowe and Brown.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  73. And yet Landrieu and Nelson were there in the end to vote for Obamacare. I doubt either Snowe or Brown would vote for anything approximating a balanced budget.

    steve (369bc6)

  74. what I have problems with is people making sh*t up about Romney or other Republican candidates.

    Do you really?

    Because you have been unbelievably hard on Perry for his horrible corruption and homosexuality.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  75. “He cut it by $500 billion and put it into Obama Care, and I will turn that around.”

    Dustin – Romney loves ObamaCare so much he’s going to rip that $500 million right out of there that’s already been earmarked or appropriated. Does not really fit your praise meme.

    By the way, there’s only one person I know of that has cut Medicare. That’s the president of the United States.”

    Yes, your point is true too, Daleyrocks. Romney is also noting that the dems are pandering somewhat insincerely. But I don’t want a leader whose argument is that he’ll do more for them on entitlements than the democrats!

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  76. Daley has often presented himself as intending only to be a fair arbiter defending all Republicans, and I think he is sincerely thinking this is what he’s doing.

    But he’s said a lot of things about Perry that just seem to pan out as proven.

    He’s also gone to lengths that I think are silly in his defense of Romney’s record, suggesting it’s ‘just making up crap’ to link a video of Romney or quote Romney.

    The fact is that Daleyrocks is biased heavily in Romney’s favor, and is not even remotely objective. That’s fine, even great. But it’s hard to take seriously his mission objective of stopping folks from making crap up about any Republican after his many comments about Perry.

    He takes absolutely the most negative view of any set of facts that pertains to Perry, such if someone in his admin benefited in a way that appears to show impropriety proving Perry is personally corrupt, and then absolutely the most lenient on Romney, such as when his campaign asks donors to support Romney’s kid’s investments, or when Romney filled his staff with business partners (not that I even think that was wrong, but had Perry done it I know how it would be played).

    I think suggesting we should defend Romney just because he’s Republican betrays the mission here. He stretches the definition of the party, so loyalty oaths become a hell of a lot more necessary in his case.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  77. Comment by daleyrocks — 12/21/2011 @ 12:55 pm

    I like to think that I can back-up whatever I say about someone, or that without that, I would refrain from saying anything – positive or negative.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  78. The GOP establishment has revealed itself to be nothing less than the American contingent of the international leftist insurgency. So long as Conservatives have no legitimate home of their own they will continue to wait in vain for indigenous American political interests to find representation in Congress.

    ropelight (e687bc)

  79. What If???

    Gary Johnson is going 3rd-party!
    What if all the TEA Partiers follow him?
    Where does that leave the GOP?

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  80. Stan Greenberg had a useful column up a couple of months back on the myth propagated by pollsters and wonks of the Independents as vote switching so-libs.

    His point was there were no stereotypic classifications of those who detest the majors.

    Being an Indie I reiterate they are a bimodal population straddling the centrist GOP.

    So-libs, including libertarians, those that switch allegiance are not 10% of the electorate, the rest of us are unimpressed by the Democrat-GOP gamesmanship and seldom vote straight party tickets.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  81. btw, I’m really not intending an attack on Daleyrocks here. I just think we all have our biases and he seems to have one that craps all over Perry while being very defensive of Romney.

    Haiku has recently expressed he has a problem with Texas itself, which explains a lot. Maybe some people just don’t like us. I don’t think this is Daley’s reasons. I think he simply is more moderate on politics and doesn’t see a big problem with Romney’s record. He doesn’t understand why I think it’s so much worse than Perry’s. He buys into the comparisons that show how Texas and MA are actually similar, which I think is laughably absurd.

    That’s fine. Instead of resorting to proving our honesty all the time, or looking down on those who aren’t objectively ‘right’ in their opinions, we should abandon that as silly and childish.

    Romney and Perry and Newt are ideologically different, and the primary is the time to stand on principle, so folks should pick.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  82. “Gary Johnson is going 3rd-party!
    What if all the TEA Partiers follow him?
    Where does that leave the GOP?”

    More importantly – at least to me – is where does that scenario leave America?

    Up Sh*t Creek, sans paddle, that’s where.

    Purity. Of. Essence.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  83. 81-…more…
    If the TEA Party only supports Congressional/Senate candidates that adhere to its’ philosophy, and also Gary Johnson, who wins on 11/6?

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  84. I have no issues with Texas or Texans. I like Texas and I’ve found the vast majority of Texans to be splendid and sincere folks.

    However… all things considered, I would rather live and work in California.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  85. Well, Col., before you can recover from an addiction, you have to hit bottom.
    Perhaps, a 2nd-term of Obama would take us to that bottom so that recovery can begin.
    A 2nd Civil War would certainly shake-out a lot of deadwood; and as Lt. JG Nick Holden famously said: In chaos, there is opportunity!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  86. Dustin – Romney loves ObamaCare so much he’s going to rip that $500 million right out of there that’s already been earmarked or appropriated. Does not really fit your praise meme.

    What?

    I disagree!

    Romney is not talking about cutting Obamacare! That is a very slanted interpretation.

    He is talking about ‘keep your hands off my medicare’ and how he’s going to get half a trillion more for it than Obama wanted, and how we should ‘vote out of office’ those who disagree.

    The idea Romney is going to cut federal funding for OBamacare is difficult to accept. YES, this is the slick talk explanation Romney’s fans are offering, and I did knowingly grant this. It’s also totally insincere. Just look how Romney praised Ted Kennedy for getting federal money to fund Romneycare! You have to ignore SO MUCH to think Romney is going to cut entitlement spending.

    No, he is attempting to out-pander Obama. And his record shows us the results.

    He would get that money back to Medicare and then not get it removed from Obamacare. This would be the result he would hope to slick talk into blaming the democrats for.

    Personally, I disagree with him in wanting to increase medicare funding by half a trillion, no matter where he claims that money will come from.

    My ‘praise meme’ is to link a video of Romney praising Obamacare.

    Meme?

    Seriously?

    Is this a meme too?

    No, Romney praises Obamacare. That’s a fact. Claiming it’s a meme is suggesting I’m being dishonest because you just plain can win the argument. Romney = much more support for Obamacare than any other GOP candidate. That is not some wild lie. The guy is on record praising many aspects of it, and as recently as mere months ago.

    See what I mean when I note that you’re actually defending Romney from the facts, rather than just objectively defending all Republicans equally from “lies”?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  87. I would rather live and work in California.

    Well then, continue doing so.
    Just don’t attempt to impose your preferences upon others – that’s what Leftists do!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  88. Dustin, you have a tendency to interpret and/or twist statements, issues, records, facts, responses, policies, etc., in a manner that I find less than circumspect. That is the issue I have with you.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  89. Just don’t attempt to impose your preferences upon others – that’s what Leftists do!

    Please advise me how you believe I’ve done that, AD.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  90. Specifically how and precisely where?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  91. Dustin, you have a tendency to interpret and/or twist statements, issues, records, facts, responses, policies, etc., in a manner that I find less than circumspect. That is the issue I have with you.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 1:34 pm

    You are a dishonest troll. You take the clown nose off when your behavior is pointed out to you.

    You have been trashing Texas all day long.

    And they are welcomed to it. I’ve spent enough time in Texas to appreciate California, for all of its faults.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 12:09 pm

    This is your explanation for living in a liberal place with a lot of problems. I interpreted that, in good faith, as criticism of Texas.

    Now you claim I’m dishonest for taking your words at face value.

    You’ve done this a million times.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  92. When you distort the facts re TX v. CA.

    As Pat Moynihan reminded us:
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitle to their own facts!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  93. 😯

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  94. Get a grip, Dustin. You’re a better person than your recent behavior would indicate.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  95. Those facts are drawn from the census data, AD.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  96. Dustin, you have a tendency to interpret and/or twist statements, issues, records, facts, responses, policies, etc., in a manner that I find less than circumspect. That is the issue I have with you.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 1:34 pm

    BTW, you twisted Perry’s cut of education against a whirlwind of opposition and demands he take another way out of the deficit as “forced”. You even linked bilderberger conspiracy theories to show this.

    You’ve been mocking me as “perryman” and saying you’re surprised real texans haven’t shot me.

    Now the clown nose is off, right? Now Haiku is a sad victim, just weeping for the poor people in Texas that Perry didn’t save with our government.

    It is so insincere. You clearly have an ideological difference from me. Why not argue that.

    It’s not like you can convince anyone that Romney is more conservative than Perry. It’s not twisting that I have produced so much evidence of Romney being very liberal, even out of office, or when the dems have little say in the matter.

    I really think we’re better off if you return to discussing Romney for what he really is: a centrist and populist who is more than ready to do very liberal things.

    That is a valid point of view we can discuss without you short circuiting your keyboard with tears, either of rage or sorrow.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  97. The problem for both majors, particularly Congress, is that the average earthling now knows government as a hopless failure, a corrupt, oppressive taskmaster, an arrogant parasite.

    Perhaps Boehner, et al., are overplaying their hand, but going into elections as the ineffectual, token opposition wasn’t a watershed.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  98. Regain some self-control, Dustin. Raise the level of discourse.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  99. But I guess it’s no surprise.

    This has happened repeatedly.

    Haiku and Daleyrocks have an argument, they lose on the facts. I just keep hitting them with the facts, usually Romney’s own words.

    Then, it gets personal because they know the real argument is over.

    Then, the ugly personal battle keeps everyone from reading the argument. It’s like a smokescreen.

    We are all better than this, right?

    You know my interpretation of Romney’s BS is sincere.

    Now I also want to note something about Daleyrocks’s point I forgot to mention. He notes there is something inconsistent about Romney’s comments about Obamacare. But my point is that Romney is flip flopping at best. So that explains a lot of the reason you can’t really line up all of Romney’s comments coherently. They are not coherent.

    I know how he would lead, though. We all know if someone is weak at this point, they will only be weaker in the general on these matters.

    Anyway, that’s why he both praises and criticizes the same law. It depends on who he’s talking to and what works best for him, politically. Romney has been very evasive on Obamacare since 2009. He promises he intends to repeal the whole deal, but he also claims to support the way it gets everyone on insurance, which Romney’s fans deny means the mandate. If you don’t think that’s a flip flop, explain.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  100. Those facts are drawn from the census data, AD.

    And, I think that the raw-data you presented was fleshed-out by others to more accurately reflect the differences.
    As you are probably aware:
    “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics!”

    If I told you that I had a family income of $55K, that wouldn’t be so bad, unless I told you that I lived in 11937 where the discrepency between the 1% and 99% is very pronounced, but the demo #’s are skewed by the fact that the most of that 1% are not permanent residents of the town, so their data is not included.

    YMMV!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  101. maybe the fica fund is loaded with cash.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  102. 103- Yeah, Right!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  103. And, I think that the raw-data you presented was fleshed-out by others to more accurately reflect the differences.

    Hard numbers and comparative ranking are what they are. Of course… your mileage may vary.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  104. Get a grip, Dustin. You’re a better person than your recent behavior would indicate.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 1:40 pm

    I’m a person you said you’re surprised wasn’t shot, Haiku. I’m a person you’ve claimed is gay because I support Perry, whom you also claim is gay.

    I’m not trying to live by whatever moral code you want me to live by. You have lost the argument, and this is how you always handle it. I’m a bad person.

    Whatever, dude.

    You know, when man knows he’s wrong, he doesn’t cry that someone pointed it out, trying to pretend he didn’t say what he said.

    Your moaning today will make your nasty jester routine all the more amusing tomorrow.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  105. Again, get a grip. Raise the level of discourse. You can do it.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  106. We are offered choices in a prospective Executive ranging from effective Management and radical Leadership.

    I am perplexed why states in the condition of Greece, e.g., CA, would opt for a manager.

    That’s rather like changing deck chairs on the Titanic.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  107. Mitt Romney didn’t praise Obamacare because the guy who links him doing that repeatedly is a bad person.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  108. Yes, but without factoring in the local COL, those numbers are just that, numbers.
    Why else is their a Federal Escalator for GS schedules for high-COL areas?
    It is to encourage GS’s to locate to high-COL areas without being saddled with a monetary loss vis-a-vis working in a low-COL area.
    If I make (say) four-times the poverty line, but live in an area that has a COL that is three-times the national avg, I’m not in a better place v. living in an area that matches the national-COL (if such an area exists).

    A Question:
    If you had an income of $180K, would you be as comfortable in Palm Beach FL, as you would be in Sarasota FL? Or, let’s say Santa Monica CA, v. Salton Sea City CA (they both have access to lots of sand and salt-water)?

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  109. Comment by gary gulrud — 12/21/2011 @ 1:59 pm

    We have Moonbeam, who hasn’t even been able to manage his own life.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  110. 110- Oops…their…there

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  111. And the exodus continues….

    Waste Connections, one of the Sacramento region’s largest publicly traded companies, announced last week that it will be relocating its headquarters from Folsom, California to Houston, Texas…”

    http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2011/12/the-business-exodus/

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  112. That is a huge company, AD.

    Wow.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  113. The Cevrolet Volt is now named Chevrolet Perry.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  114. Well, it’s only 130 jobs, but they do spend a lot of money on admin ops. They must have a very diverse, and wide-spread, customer base.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  115. 115-
    Are you talking about the “American Trabant”?

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/21/govt-subsidies-for-chevy-volt-up-to-250000-per-car/

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  116. You know exetnding the tax cut for a year has dems pissed off.

    They want the greedy to get a 2 month tax reprieve not a year or not permanent.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  117. Didn’t realize it was that few/many jobs. I know it’s a big company.

    It’s fine to criticize Perry. The guy has made some calls I disagree with and have criticized many times. The guy has made a mess of his early debates, too.

    But those Romney fans who can’t see how Texas really is governed very well are not doing themselves any favors. They will constantly be blindsided by reality.

    Keeping government out of the way might sound simplistic, but it works, and that’s what matters.

    Romney had his chance to show us his leanings, and instead he’s praising Obamacare for getting everyone in the country to buy something with the “incentive”. What does that mean? Subsidized care or the individual mandate? I think the mandate is clearly what he meant, but does it matter?

    Government is out of control, and I want to change direction.

    Your Volt example is just the latest in a very long line of attempts by government to control our choices. We don’t want that car. If we did, the sales would scale out the production costs. Romney, for all his business acumen, has a philosophical view on jobs and government that is unhealthy.

    Those who think I am making this stuff up need to get a browser that supports youtube playback and hyperlinks. I don’t see how anyone could deny I have a point if they were following my links.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  118. Even the AP, and PuffHo (Business) can verify the Blind-Squirrel Theorem…

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/02/economic-stress-map-the-a_n_342478.html

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  119. Cutting the budget for public schools is evil

    Cutting SS after 2 months=Ok unless it is the Repubs doing it.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  120. Requiring people to have health insurance is “<a href="http://ace.mu.nu/archives/324935.php&quot; target="_blank conservative,” GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney told MSNBC on Wednesday, but only if states do it

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  121. Mitt Romney on Healthcare yesterday

    Requiring people to have health insurance is “conservative,” GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney told MSNBC on Wednesday, but only if states do it.

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  122. annnd I still suck – Romney said it today

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  123. Blind Squirrel Alert!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  124. Jews killed Jesus long ago so the right and left shouldn’t use that an excuse to hate Jews now.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  125. :roll: I hope Obama gets his hairy ass kicked.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  126. I have been a PP lurker for about 2 years. My respect for many of the regular commentators has grown proportionately, not with their being correct, but by their honest pursuit of the truth.

    Dustin is one such person. My respect for Dustin, especially for his handling of colonel today, has grown considerably. Thank you for your comments, Dustin.

    Colonel, Dustin’s level of discourse is of the highest level in my opinion. So high, in fact, that if the Presidential election were held today, I (an independant) would not find myself voting for Romney.

    felipe (2ec14c)

  127. That’s incredibly kind, felipe, and sincerely appreciated.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  128. True, Dustin, we’ve had some ‘spirited ‘discussion,
    a little over a year ago, I think I understand where
    your coming from, seeing how Texas State politics
    are uneven in quality, It is somewhat similar in Florida, Jeb lost in ’94, in part to a very underhanded campaign by Lawton Chiles, not unlike
    the one that Romney had against Kennedy,

    narciso (87e966)

  129. Its a media problem. GOP cannot overcome the massive leftist media. If the Senate and House was Dem the headline would read

    ” Senate rejects house tax cut bill and flys home for Christmas”

    Dennis D (55ba3e)

  130. Dustin – Whether or not it was a bad idea or liberal is not the issue. The issue is your claim that Romney supports ObamaCare. Please stay focused.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/21/2011 @ 12:37 pm

    Now I don’t understand this.

    You asked me to answer a straight question. ” Dustin – Is the legality of a federal mandate to purchase health insurance in front of the Supreme Court or a state mandate?”

    I answered it directly.

    I don’t really see how it related to my point that Romney praised similarities between Obamacare and Romneycare. I explained why I disagree with romney’s policy views, though. I see no reason to ‘focus’ away from Romneycare.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  131. So high, in fact, that if the Presidential election were held today, I (an independant) would not find myself voting for Romney.

    If I recall correctly, you’ve shared that you couldn’t vote for Mitt Romney several times before, Felipe. No surprise there.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  132. I think I understand where
    your coming from,

    Sowell had a nice and succinct editorial yesterday where he notes we do not have the perfect candidate among those we have to pick from.

    Of our choices, all of them are flawed in some way. I think Perry’s flaws are the least serious when it comes to leadership (I think Sowell probably prefers Newt, whom I find acceptable but am not enthusiastic about).

    Anyway, it seems like Haiku and I were going to get off to a more reasoned discussion today and then it fell apart. I don’t mind the spirited nature of the primary. Why shouldn’t folks take these matters seriously? Just wish those on the other side of this would realize that there’s definitely a good faith case that Romney is pretty far from conservative.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  133. If I recall correctly, you’ve shared that you couldn’t vote for Mitt Romney several times before, Felipe. No surprise there.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 4:32 pm

    You, sir, are a LIAR!

    felipe (2ec14c)

  134. This primary set up is getting us nowhere, Dustin, if Ron Paul is a possible answer, then you;ve asked
    the wrong question entirely. Mind you, I sort of agree with his stance on the Fed, Greenspan and
    Bernanke were the tutors in that regard.

    narciso (87e966)

  135. Well, there goes that neighborhood.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  136. Ron Paul, once you investigate his newsletter’s contents, should be thoroughly disqualified from almost any elective office.
    And, that’s not even talking about his foreign-policy views.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  137. In the last 72 years:
    Annual Job growth Avg. by DEMOCRAT presidents= 3.6%,
    REPUBLICAN presidents= 1.1%

    Debt increase by presidents:Reagan 186%, Bush 54%, Clinton 41%, Bush II 72%, OBAMA 23%

    Choose wisely ;^)

    tifosa (87fd8e)

  138. How convenient that you left out the entire New Deal.
    Moron, Coward, and Liar!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  139. if Ron Paul is a possible answer, then you;ve asked
    the wrong question entirely.

    Yeah. Ace’s blog reminded me that Ron endorsed Cynthia Bloody McKinney in 2008. His supporters who intend something other than ‘no confidence’ with their vote are totally misguided.

    Mind you, I sort of agree with his stance on the Fed, Greenspan and
    Bernanke were the tutors in that regard.

    It’s frustrating to go from nodding to this when he talks. He makes some good points and then…

    Dustin (cb3719)

  140. Percentages are interesting things, Tifosa.

    For example, they make Obama’s trillion dollar deficits seem much less than Reagan’s 2-3 hundred billion (I believe this is in constant dollars).

    But the truth is that the GOP should have done a better job in the 2000s than they did. Choosing Obama as a result would be a serious mistake, if you’re serious about reducing the deficit.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  141. When has tiffy and his ilk been serious about anything?

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  142. Tiffy got a new set of lies from thinkregress.

    JD (269dac)

  143. JD, you know you shouldn’t use the words “tiffy” and “think” in the same sentence.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  144. …and with that, I bid you all a’dieu.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  145. No, AD, not the “final” farewell.

    Likewise, I too am heading out – to enjoy an evening of wagering with my friends. Let me leave on a sobering thought.

    …and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…

    I hereby forgive colonel, and ask his forgiveness for calling him a liar on the internet – where eveything is “forever”.

    Goodnight, to all.

    felipe (2ec14c)

  146. Awww. Look how well y’all congeal when you have a common cause.

    tifosa (87fd8e)

  147. “I think he simply is more moderate on politics and doesn’t see a big problem with Romney’s record. He doesn’t understand why I think it’s so much worse than Perry’s. He buys into the comparisons that show how Texas and MA are actually similar, which I think is laughably absurd.”

    Dustin – If you make assumptions about me, you’ll make an even bigger ass out of yourself than you already have.

    Just stick to the words people have written rather the words you imagine they have written.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  148. “Haiku and Daleyrocks have an argument, they lose on the facts.”

    Dustin – Please show where Romney favors a federal takeover of health insurance, preferably with his own words. If you cannot, you lose on facts.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  149. Romney sucks. Perry is stupid. Enough already.

    JD (269dac)

  150. Awww. Look how well y’all congeal when you have a common cause.

    Comment by tifosa — 12/21/2011 @ 5:35 pm

    Thank God for that. In a few months, hopefully we’ll congeal.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  151. Awwwwwww look how Tifosa keeps sexually assaulting that chicken.

    The Dems and Repubs fighting is like Palestine and Israel fighting………..Palestine wants to kill Israel because they are jews Dems want to kill us because most of us are Repubs.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  152. tifosa shows how to lie with statistics:
    Debt increase by presidents:Reagan 186%, Bush 54%, Clinton 41%, Bush II 72%, OBAMA 23%

    Obama has put up just as much debt in his first term as Bush II put onto the national debt in two terms, but tifosa uses a percentage increase figure to misrepresent that fact.

    But then, I can’t recall anything honest from tifosa, so no surprise.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  153. “Percentages are interesting things, Tifosa.”

    Especially when they’re totally made up.

    Anyway, presidents don’t borrow money, Congresses borrows money, so it’s mainly their responsibility (and, of course Congress has almost always been controlled by the Slaveowner/Jim Crow Party ever since 1933).

    However, under president Bush II the debt rose from 72% of GDP (2000) to 88% of GDP (2008), and after just three years of Obama (with, unfortunately for us, a Democrat controlled Congress the first two years), the debt has leaped to a projected 120% of GDP (2011), the highest in U.S. history, except for WWII.

    Nice job Obambi and the rest of the Dems. Hope you get bit by a shark on your multi-million dollar vacation to Hawaii…freaking scumbag.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2015USp_H0t%22

    If you’re worried about debt, the last thing you would want are liberal Democrats in control of any part of the government. But, of course, no rational person would want the Jim Crow boys in control of any part of the government for any reason, unless you happen to make your living by leeching off taxpayers.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  154. Tiffy – why don’t you go back to thinkregress and ask them if they will do the same comparison with Dem control of the House.

    JD (318f81)

  155. Especially when they’re totally made up.

    Yeah, I didn’t actually bother to check, and shouldn’t assume Tifosa’s figures are accurate.

    But it hardly matters. Obama has added more debt than any other president. If the deficit level really is as important to tifosa as he or she suggests, I hope tifosa will join me in volunteering for Perry, because I think he’s the one best suited to standing firm on this issue that appears to challenge other politicians so much.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  156. JD’s point about the House is pretty major, too. I concede too much in even associating Reagan with Tip O’Neill’s deficit, or Bush with Nancy Pelosi’s.

    I think we see a much more clear picture if we compare House control to the deficit. They have the power of the purse.

    This is one reason to be frustrated with the GOP today, though. This is why the post’s quotes of lamentations really are a major problem for the GOP. They have enough power to be effective, and they need to do a better job.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  157. One recalls when Reagan did try to cut some programs, which are always ‘draconian cuts’ he was savaged by the media, namely Bill Moyers then at CBS, ‘Shame of the Nation’ or some such, that along with the 81-82 recession, cost him loss of a working
    majority in the House.

    narciso (87e966)

  158. ______________________________________________

    I would suggest that another explanation is much more plausible: Mr. Obama’s improved approval ratings reflect rising economic expectations.

    If so, that suggests a good portion of the public is, in effect, like prostitutes. IOW, just as long as the dollars are flowing on in, they don’t care what they’re having to do to make that money. Or just as long as their liberal biases are being stroked, they don’t care if that leads to a case of the “rise and fall of the Roman Empire” (or “goddamn America!”).

    They don’t care whether the “good times” are intertwined with a corrupt, Greece-like or Argentina-like society, or a mess like the city of Detroit or Oakland. They don’t care if the supposedly better economic figures come with the price of the beneficiaries having to live in a whore house.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  159. Mark that is absolutely the way of it.

    There are a lot of people who simply do not care that our nation’s debt is a problem for our kids. So long as it all works for them, so long as the economy can be stimulated enough, let the kids solve that problem when they encounter it.

    Greed is powerful. Sometimes that can be used in good ways… it’s only natural. Sometimes it can be exploited via democracy to break a country’s back over generations.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  160. So getting back to the point of the thread, the idiots in the Senate, which ones are up to your discretion, wrote a bill that cannot be implemented
    effectively, and yet Gingrich and now Rove, are
    willing not to rebutt the talking point.

    Meanwhile we are drawing down the social security fund at an ever increasing rate, and ‘redistributing’ the funding to a higher income cohort, also we’re stifling any residential real estate sales, through that user fee.

    narciso (87e966)

  161. SPQR

    Didnt Obama put up in one year what Bush did in 8?

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  162. Ah, the national debt stands at $15.1 trillion, and the day zero took office it was $10.6. That’s 30% already, and he’s racking up debt faster than any president in history. Tif is not only a liar, but an innumerate liar.
    That is all!

    jhump (721840)

  163. jhump, when you lay it out like that, it starts to sound pretty serious. 10 trillion in 232 years. 15 trillion in 235.

    We’re in deep trouble if we don’t change course. Even if we do, it’s going to be hard to pay for this government, and it’s not clear to me what all we got.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  164. Dustin,

    Actually when the Republicans gained legislative control in 1994 the debt was 3.8 trillion and when they lost in 2006 it was 8.6 trillion

    From 2007 to today the Democrats have added almost 7 trillion in 5 years whereas the Republicans added 4.8 trillion in 13 years

    Both are bad, one is disasterous

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  165. “Obama has added more debt than any other president.”

    FDR added more than Obambi did, but of course he was in office much longer than the halfwit from Hawaii, and also we were fighting an all-out, total world war which tends to get a bit expensive, so you have to cut the Dems of that day a little slack (while noting that the only reason we were fighting a war that was none of our business…as per usual, was because of the idiotic foreign policies of FDR and his Dem cronies).

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  166. I heard Hoyer on the evening news tonight saying something to the effect of “Why are the Republicans against middle class tax relief?”. Then they showed about a dozen people being interviewed about how much they’ll be hurt by the tax going up.

    The response of Boehner is to say “We need the President to get involved”. What exactly is that statement supposed to result in? Most middle of the road airheads don’t even know what he’s talking about. For about the millionth time Republicans are really stupid. They should be saying “Why are the Democrats against middle class tax relief?”.

    It simply amazes me how Republicans cannot figure out how to control a message.

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  167. Actually when the Republicans gained legislative control in 1994 the debt was 3.8 trillion and when they lost in 2006 it was 8.6 trillion

    ouch

    I try to defend the GOP when I can, but sometimes they don’t make it very easy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  168. Comment by Dustin — 12/21/2011 @ 12:06 pm

    Yes, Daleyrocks, even Perry grants that Romneycare’s mandate is constitutional.

    This is a red herring, though.

    It is a bad idea, and a liberal idea, even if it’s constitutional.

    Mitt Romney was defending it today, as not just a god idea, but a conservative idea, because he said the alternative was giving people emergency care without having people who could afford it (he qualified it with this general phrase) have to buy health insurance care. He had them pay their fair share.

    And isn’t this something Romneycare has in common with Obamacare? Something you can’t blame on democrats, either. Something Romney personally wanted. The individual mandate is the core of Romneycare.

    If you listen carefully, Mitt Romney has never Romney has never criticized the idea of an individual mandate (and that’s not one of his three criticisms of Obamacare)

    He’s only criticized the idea of imposing one national health care plan for the entire country.

    Now as Gail Collins wrote December 1 in the New York Times, that’s not because Mitt Romney has been honest about this. It’s because it’s one thing he can’t repudiate:

    Also, he has to stop bragging that the proof of his consistency is his refusal to totally disavow the Massachusetts health care law. “This whole stream of thought that you began with, which is: ‘Oh well, you’d say anything to get elected’ — if that were the case, would I still be defending Massachusetts health care?” Romney demanded in his warehouse interview.

    Now how does a guy who was governor, who signed the health care law and waved it around like a pennant, go about renouncing the whole thing? I’ll bet he would have if he could have, but how would that work? Could Romney just explain that he was held captive by Democratic terrorists all the time it took the bill to pass, while a stuffed version of Mitt was substituted for public events? It’d be sort of embarrassing to admit that nobody noticed the difference.

    – New York Times op-ed column by Gail Collins entitled “The Mitt Romney Pardon”, in the Thursday, December 1, 2011 New York Times (dated Nov 30 on the website)

    (She proposed that Mitt Romney be given a pardon and one week to decide what he really thinks of anything. She also has a shtick whenever she writes about Mitt Romney, to always to mention the time Mitt Romney drove into Canada with his family with his dog on the roof of the car.)

    I should say that Newt Gingrich also doesn’t get it. He thinks the problem with an individual mandate is that it is not libertarian. (also not constitutional)

    The whole idea is a fallacy. It removes the last incentive on the part of hospitals to cut costs. The amount is way too high. It imposes high costs on people who can not afford it, or it doesn’t work. It tangles people up in bureaucracy. Everyone earning less than $50,000 maybe is on a form of Medicaid.

    Sammy Finkelman (b17872)

  169. That avg’s out to $400B/yr – Trade?

    Carlos (c22768)

  170. Dustin

    70% of that Republican number are democrat entitlements – whereas when Democrats control its 100% of their number

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  171. Also it was over 13 years

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  172. It’s a pretty funny column, although she herself has a bit of a bias as to what positions re good.

    Here is a good part:

    Never have we had a more uptight potential president. This is all because he’s a big, huge, bundle — well, actually, a lean, well-exercised, impeccably groomed bundle — of contradictory positions whose history he cannot possibly justify without standing up and screaming: Look, I’m running for office! I have to make things up!

    It’s time to free Mitt from his demons. I propose that we give him one week in which to decide at which point in his life he was actually expressing his true opinion on any given topic, and we will just clear the slate and go from there.

    For instance, it seems likely that despite Romney’s story about not understanding what an embryo was until after he was elected governor of Massachusetts, he has always been privately anti-choice. So let’s go with that and erase those rather emotional moments in his debates with Ted Kennedy when he recalled his mother’s pro-choice Senate candidacy and the close family relative who had died from an illegal abortion. (“It is since that time my mother and my family have been committed to the belief that we can believe as we want, but we will not force our beliefs on others on that matter, and you will not see me wavering on that.”)

    Poof. It’s gone.

    I think we should also accept Romney’s word that his current position on Detroit (let the carmakers go bankrupt) is the real Mitt. Honestly, the man spent his whole career laying people off.

    But, in return, he ought to admit that he really does believe in global warming and that he’s always thought everybody should be required to have health insurance. Really, you can look that one up in his book.

    Because there are italics in the original, I made the quoted text bold.

    Sammy Finkelman (b17872)

  173. Mitt Romney was defending it today, as not just a god idea, but a conservative idea, because he said the alternative was giving people emergency care without having people who could afford it (he qualified it with this general phrase) have to buy health insurance care. He had them pay their fair share.

    Yeah I saw him on the NBC news saying that while being interviewed by Chuck Todd. He said there were only two choices: let people who can afford insurance continue freeloading or force them to buy insurance, and the second option was the more conservative. I think that’s at least a plausible idea.

    Whatever else you want to say about him, I think he possesses an agility and awareness in dealing with attacks that other Pubbies have lacked. Bush for example generally seemed unaware of what was being said about him – whether or not he really was. I don’t get the feeling that Romney has that lack of awareness.

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  174. Also it was over 13 years

    Comment by EricPWJohnson

    Yeah, but only in comparison to what we’re doing today does that look like slow growth. It’s alarming how fast domestic spending increased under GOP control, and just plain insane how it’s gone up since.

    I think he possesses an agility and awareness

    Yes, Gerald, I concede that.

    But I do not think taking control of economic decisions is conservative, and I don’t think Romney’s support of Romneycare at the time was ‘gee shucks, this is terrible that we’re doing this but it’s less awful than any alternative those mean democrats will foist on us’

    He seemed pretty happy with the idea, and particularly enthusiastic about his ‘collaborator’, the not-so-conservative Ted Kennefy, for making sure federal dollars would subsidize the goodies. Indeed, the vast, vast majority of health insurance in MA is now subsidized by the taxpayers (And I don’t mean just MA Taxpayers).

    Now, Romney claims this is the conservative side of the issue.

    That, in a nutshell, is why I don’t support him. Think about all that gives up. Think about how the democrats will produce the new ‘moderate’ result, now that Romney has defined the rightmost mainstream solution.

    No, this is not conservative.

    Conservative is the government having no role in health insurance by regulating that it’s a lawful contract with some basic standards. And maybe tort reform.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  175. This whole impasse was caused by two or three things:

    1) Boehner is not willing to pass a bill with less than half of the Republicans voting for it.

    2) Negotiations took place without taking the true feelings of the Republican House members into account. Now the Democrats wanted those kind of closed door negotiations, but Boehner should have refused.

    3) Many Republicans don’t like the idea of extending the payroll tax cut because Social Security is supposedly financed from that. Even “paying for it” by changes in tax law or spending wasn’t enough for many republican House members. They needed sweeteners. Or Boehner needed it to get a majority of the House Republicans to vote for it.

    4) All the sweeteners but one were taken out of the bill by the Senate, and the one remaining one, the Keystone pipeline, is a swindle, if you want the pipeline to be approved.

    Obama will turn it down – the Democrats said it would be turned down after the bill passed the senate – claiming there wasn’t enough time to properly review it. So he gets an excuse to deny a permit.

    Now we should understand what needs reviewing.

    Not the pipeline’s actual route, but alternative routes. They sort of need to “prove” that all alternatives would be worst environmentally or economically. That’s standard operating procedure in environmental impact statements and it’s all just amass of pointless work. They just need to show how they considered some alternate routes but don’t like them for some reason. Each alternative is supposed to get the full work-up.
    It doesn’t matter if the environmental impact of the one they want is trivial or about as minimal as it gets. You’ve still got to show what happens if you decide on alternative possibilities. You don’t have to elect the best, you just have to make a report. What will happen to the birds and the fish and carbon monoxide ground water etc. Even if everyone knows it’s always nothing much. But you need to write a an alternative history of the United States for each one.

    And it’s not like there’s some neutral method for proposing alternatives. You could make any project look good environmentally just by selecting some really bad alternatives.

    Sammy Finkelman (b17872)

  176. Actually when the Republicans gained legislative control in 1994 the debt was 3.8 trillion and when they lost in 2006 it was 8.6 trillion

    400 billion a year is a rounding error in comparison to what Barcky has done, and the known future effects of his nightmarish policies.

    JD (318f81)

  177. Conservative is the government having no role in health insurance by regulating that it’s a lawful contract with some basic standards. And maybe tort reform.

    Comment by Dustin — 12/21/2011 @ 7:20 pm

    Sigh.

    I meant no role BUT regulating that it’s a lawful contract.

    The government should keep both sides honest. Sometimes, there really is a need for more, such as with tort reform in Texas.

    Sammy, at the end of the day, we have a spending problem. Obama is probably delighted that we’re just talking about some temporary tax cut and the pipeline, because the real issue is spending.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  178. “Actually when the Republicans gained legislative control in 1994 the debt was 3.8 trillion and when they lost in 2006 it was 8.6 trillion…”

    No, you don’t look at raw dollars. That doesn’t tell you anything, because the size of the economy isn’t static, and neither is the value of a dollar.

    You want to look at the debt as a percentage of GDP, or a similar measure. That will actually tell you whether we’re more in debt or then we used to be, and looking at raw dollars will not, unless you’re looking at a very, very short time frame.

    In 1994 the debt stood at 81% of GDP, In 2006 the debt stood at 80% of GDP. There was no real increase in debt as long as we had a Republican controlled Congress (OTOH, they didn’t reduce it either).

    As soon as the Democrats took control of Congress the debt started to skyrocket. Since 2006 it’s gone up to 120% of GDP.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  179. JD

    I agree and when you look at what the 13 years of republican oerruns – its mostly LBJ’s great society – not defense

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  180. Romney is part of the deficits are not all that bad crowd, saying for example that Romneycare is good for MA and the people like it when it solved none of the problems for which it was designed.

    Insurers are dropping out, government is setting prices paid, emergency room usage has gone up, insurance rates are 15% above the national average, only 3 or 4 million of 8 million uninsured are included, people wait until they get sick to sign up and then change or drop insurance when they’re served, MA would be bankrupt but for Federal funding,…

    He’s a lying crud and 25% of us will not vote for him.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  181. Dustin’s level of discourse is of the highest level in my opinion.
    — Perhaps you should lurk a little more often.

    So high, in fact, that if the Presidential election were held today, I (an independant) would not find myself voting for Romney.
    — I’m certain that Dustin appreciates the opportunity to make your mind up for you. [Ooh, look at the very next post!]

    Icy (826767)

  182. If I recall correctly, you’ve shared that you couldn’t vote for Mitt Romney several times before, Felipe. No surprise there.
    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 4:32 pm

    You, sir, are a LIAR!
    Comment by felipe — 12/21/2011 @ 4:42 pm

    — Note: felipe’s level of discourse is NOT “of the highest level”.

    Icy (826767)

  183. Greece just cancelled tax returns for the year. Its creditors are not accepting 50 cents on the dollar. The ECB just loan EU banks 640 Billion for three years at 1% in the hope they will buy more junk.

    Unfortunately they have too much already and just 50% of the cash to repay depositors when the loans fail.

    The US dollar’s deflation since 2008 has only been exceeded by the British Pound among developed countries.

    Our costs to maintain our debt are going up after March.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  184. 186. Note: Felipe apologized for his excess, not that we held it against him.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  185. Awww. Look how well y’all congeal when you have a common cause.
    Comment by tifosa — 12/21/2011 @ 5:35 pm

    — And so, tifosa’s dialogue with his brain cells continues . . .

    Icy (826767)

  186. Obama has raised the defecit more than bush but on the useful idiots want taxes to be raise don the rich.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  187. If you listen carefully, Mitt Romney has never Romney has never criticized the idea of an individual mandate (and that’s not one of his three criticisms of Obamacare)
    He’s only criticized the idea of imposing one national health care plan for the entire country.

    — Would not one require the other, Sammy?

    Icy (826767)

  188. Climate change is causing the polar bear population to go extinct…………..even though the population is rising.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  189. Gotta love the gorebull warming fellaters naming their cause differently and trying to instill fear into us………that is not cool man.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  190. By the way Steny Hoyer is so mental.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  191. ____________________________________________

    He said there were only two choices: let people who can afford insurance continue freeloading or force them to buy insurance, and the second option was the more conservative. I think that’s at least a plausible idea.

    And who will enforce such a mandate? The huge bureaucracy of the IRS. All the government employees who will have to be hired to oversee a new task. The portion of the national workforce that has made out the best over the past few decades. The ones with lots of days off for holidays, nice employee healthcare plans, and pleasant retirement benefits.

    Screw that, screw them.

    I think if the IRS starts sticking its big nose into the matter of healthcare and health insurance, we should all proudly become like the people of Greece and Mexico—or like some of the top people in Obama’s White House (Hi, Timothy Geithner!). IOW, we should nonchalantly, casually and smugly cheat on our taxes. After all, if that’s good enough for the Secretary of the Treasury, it’s good enough for everyone else.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  192. – Note: felipe’s level of discourse is NOT “of the highest level”.

    Comment by Icy — 12/21/2011 @ 8:44 pm

    Nobody is perfect. Maybe that’s one reason we shouldn’t just descend upon thread after thread to issue rulings about arguments we’re not even participating in. Maybe the people who most enjoy doing that are also the least qualified.

    BTW, I never told anyone not to support Romney in the general election. If we nominate Newt, Perry, or Romney, hopefully all of us support that candidate over Obama.

    If you have a problem with something I’ve said in this thread, please lay it out and we can have a nice grown-up debate. If you don’t, is this personal?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  193. Pick your saying, “Don’t let the facts get in the way”, “The first casualty of war is the truth”, or whatever.

    Apparently much of the real world said, “You’ve all got to be crazy to think the whole country can logistically handle a change in any tax-related policy for a 2 month period”. In other words, it would have been over-time pay for accountants and payroll companies, etc., etc.

    El Rushbo and some other commentators were not impressed with the WSJ. The collective attitude was that we didn’t want to be stuck trying to politically out-maneuver Obama, but try sticking to doing things that made sense and educating the public; that if all it ever will be is a game of political maneuvering instead of making clear sense then it’s not a fight worth having and not a fight we can win.

    It is easy to see why Congress has such a low approval rating. One large segment thinks the Repubs are in the way so are not happy, another large segment thinks the Dems are the problem and are not happy either, so who is the <20% who approve of Congress, those not paying enough attention to have an opinion???

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  194. if all it ever will be is a game of political maneuvering instead of making clear sense then it’s not a fight worth having and not a fight we can win.

    Yep.

    What in the world is all this fighting about? It seems to largely be about who wins the fight.

    The GOP leadership had a real fight presented. There was a chance to draw the line in the sand on the explosive growth in government. They balked. The GOP House has to concede to growth in government, and they should have refused to increase the debt ceiling, no matter what.

    That fight would have been enormously painful, but in light of the silly crap we’re seeing now, I wish we had gone through with it. We can’t just wait for the congress and white house to reach some level of GOP control (And who knows if that will even lead anywhere).

    The media will do what the media does. The least the GOP can do is represent limited government, so the voters have a say in this country’s destiny.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  195. If you oppose this your just like the godless communist terror group baader-meinhof group……………honestly L&O says so then I guess it must be true…………..not.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  196. And yes the left accuse Evo Morales of being a capitalist…………..love leftys eating their own.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  197. I won’t vote for Gingrich.

    And, that’s not negotiable.

    I’ll cast a third party protest vote, before I’ll vote for a scumbag.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  198. Your the enemy Dave.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  199. The enemy of what?

    All that’s right and proper?

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  200. If Boehner had any Balls he’d propose a PERMANENT cut in the Payroll tax, extension of the Bush, I mean O-bama tax cuts too, and watch the DemoKKKrats squirm like a fly stuck on a pin..
    Speaking of sick repulsive disgusting images, anyone catch Barney Franks nipples showing through his too tight T-shirt…
    No, not on the Anthony Weiner e-mails he was able to e-rase RIGHT ON C-SPAN…
    OK, probably more people saw Anthony Weiner’s Weiner, still, Fox was running clips of it..

    Frank

    frank drackman (d333d5)

  201. Col Haiku, you did not recall correctly. This thread contains felipe’s first-ever comment on Romney anywhere on the site. Your move Sir.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  202. – And so, tifosa’s dialogue with his brain cells continues . . .
    Comment by Icy — 12/21/2011 @ 8:58 pm

    … cells? Plural? There’s your problem. 😉

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  203. It takes two cells to make a gel. It’s the reverse of cell division; and in tifosa’s case the regression to a simpler form of life now has a biological explanation.

    Icy (311d3f)

  204. felipe could have chosen to respond to Haiku thusly:
    Col Haiku, you did not recall correctly. This thread contains felipe’s first-ever comment on Romney anywhere on the site. Your move Sir.
    Comment by Stashiu3 — 12/22/2011 @ 5:15 am
    — Yep . . . could have.

    Icy (311d3f)

  205. I think the Obama-Hillary primary was much uglier than the Romney-anti Romney contest has been so far, although the latter has not done much for this website.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  206. DRJ

    I wish we could expand the website beyond this extreme partisanship of your candidate sucks and you are a liar etc commentariat by the Romney three amigos – but despite Karls great efforts – every thread turns into it

    Hey I backed of Palin because you were right in pointing out that enough was enough – and in that spirit have tried to modify my comments on anything accordingly (this is where Stashiu stares at the screen thinking there is nothing that this guy will not say) but despite my verbose pandering – Romney is a really good person. This rhetoric isnt doing him the justice he would want. I think he is too sentimental to be president to make the tough decisions emotionally, and it takes a strain on the soul to be the decision maker.

    Perry, no problem

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  207. One recalls, DRJ Obama admitted it took him about six months, in order to figure out how to run against Hillary, which meant fixing the Nevada
    caucus,

    narciso (87e966)

  208. Take nothing they say at face value;

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/12/shock-completely-misleading-story-about-newt-saying-gays-should-vote-for-obama/

    However if I was malicious as the Jakarta Jemadar, I would have to accept it, no matter how ridiculous
    it was.

    narciso (87e966)

  209. narcisco

    Malicious? Thanks for making my point in a record 2 comments. Let me guess – are you someone who likes the fact that several women and men came out and accused Cain of being herman?

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  210. You repeat every lie, about Rubio, Haley, Palin, Cain,you can find, you think that gives you cover for your candidate,

    narciso (87e966)

  211. Nobody is perfect.
    — Yeah, but Dohbiden has already cornered the market on Tourette’s-fueled rage.

    Maybe that’s one reason we shouldn’t just descend upon thread after thread to issue rulings about arguments we’re not even participating in.
    — Of course. I dare to voice an opinion and that makes me the “referee”, does it? Or do you really mean the collective “we” and are playing this for irony?

    Maybe the people who most enjoy doing that are also the least qualified.
    — Sometimes they are. Sometimes . . . Hey, remind me real quick: Why are you getting involved in a straightforward comment I made about “felipe”?

    BTW, I never told anyone not to support Romney in the general election.
    — BTW, I never said that you did.

    If we nominate Newt, Perry, or Romney, hopefully all of us support that candidate over Obama.
    — Hopefully. Unfortunately, the blogosphere tends to attract the “never ever ever!” crowd, such as gary “never vote for Gingrich or Romney” gulrud. And others.

    If you have a problem with something I’ve said in this thread, please lay it out and we can have a nice grown-up debate.
    — That would be refreshing.

    If you don’t, is this personal?
    — Your obsession with the question of whether or not a comment on an opinion you have expressed is actually a personal attack is getting kinda tiresome. I do not know you, sir. If I have an opinion (especially a differing opinion) about what commenter X wrote I voice it. I reserve the heavy sarcasm (tin foil hat & living in mommy’s basement references) for trolls.

    Ya know — in my opinion — this seems like a lot of huffing and puffing to go through in regards to a one-sentence post in which I merely noted that felipe’s rude statement was rude.

    Icy (311d3f)

  212. Intersting that according to one of the amigo’s a fellow amigos totally false and made up accusation wasnt rude but the person who corrected the record was. even when the moderator weighed in, in spite of that the lack of facts means more rhetoric from one of the amigos….

    yaaaawn

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  213. it takes a strain on the soul to be the decision maker.
    Perry, no problem

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/22/2011 @ 7:48 am

    — The “three amigos” (whoever they are) would probably agree with you that Perry’s soul has been strained.

    Icy (311d3f)

  214. “Indeed, the vast, vast majority of health insurance in MA is now subsidized by the taxpayers (And I don’t mean just MA Taxpayers).”

    Dustin – Some proof of this claim would be nice to see.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. Annnd my point proven yet again

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  216. Col Haiku, you did not recall correctly. This thread contains felipe’s first-ever comment on Romney anywhere on the site. Your move Sir.

    Comment by Stashiu3

    I stand corrected and my apologies to felipe. Now I must tend to my reindeer, but will be back shortly.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  217. “I wish we could expand the website beyond this extreme partisanship of your candidate sucks and you are a liar etc commentariat by the Romney three amigos – but despite Karls great efforts – every thread turns into it”

    EPWJ – Comedy Gold. I wish the Sultans of Smear could refrain from turning every thread, especially those not directly related to the presidential election, into a tiresome daily Romney bashing-Perry cheerleading exercise. Restraint is not among the tools in their tool box apparently, but whining is among their favorites.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  218. I think the Obama-Hillary primary was much uglier than the Romney-anti Romney contest has been so far, although the latter has not done much for this website.

    Comment by DRJ — 12/22/2011 @ 7:40 am

    I sincerely regret that.

    I’m not claiming I’m better than the Romney three or anything. I have my views and they have theirs. They don’t appear to be compatible and we’re mainly only on the same ‘team’ to the extent where we think Obama has got to go.

    If you do not prove to MA, when you pay your taxes, that you obeyed Romney’s order to get health insurance, you are fined thousands. Many are given subsidized insurance, which is bankrupting MA. Romney has recently explained this was “conservative”.

    Even in a spectrum that shows so many states being conservative, to Romney, “conservative” is simply being a little less extreme than the most liberal extreme. This is actually something he’s rather consistent about.

    Regardless, he’s made Masscare his own. He referred to this “success” in his 2008 campaign, promising he was the right guy to fix the USA’s health care. He does not want to repeal. He wants to dot the i’s and cross the t’s. He might call that repeal and replace, but it’s BS.

    MA is one of the poorest states in the country (debt) and Romney made it try to pay for Romneycare. This is not a direction the USA should continue on either.

    It’s not just this one issue. I think if you look at Romney’s record, he doesn’t have a conservative bone in his body. On the environment, on guns, on simply being a leader and hitting that bully pulpit, even on seeing human life as sacred from conception. It’s all politics to Romney.

    It’s understandable that Romney’s supporters take exception to what I say, but it’s intended to persuade, not to fight.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  219. Intersting that according to one of the amigo’s a fellow amigos totally false and made up accusation wasnt rude
    — Okay, so I’m an “amigo” now, am I? This despite the fact that A) I actually am not actively supporting ANY candidate, and have repeatedly reminded people that in ’08 Romney was my THIRD choice; and B) just less than 24-hours ago I spent a significant amount of time disagreeing with my fellow “amigo” (and thereby agreeing with Dustin) on the subject of living standards in Texas vs California.

    but the person who corrected the record was.
    — Writing “LIAR” in all caps tends to come off that way.

    even when the moderator weighed in
    — That’s right! Stashiu informed Haiku of the facts in the matter. Since felipe already knew what Stashiu discovered through research, could he not have initially responded to Haiku in the same manner that Stashiu did later on?

    in spite of that the lack of facts means more rhetoric from one of the amigos….
    — Uh, yeah. The “more rhetoric” from me was in response to a post that Dustin directed at me. However, you have presented a clear case for the differences between the two of you: Dustin gets upset when someone does NOT directly respond to his challenges; you, OTOH, are bothered when they DO respond. Could that possibly be because then you would have to back up your snark with some facts? That “disgusting” Herman Cain ad comes to mind. Have you found it yet?

    Icy (311d3f)

  220. Maybe y’all can stop your bickering long enough to join together in welcoming the new Weiner baby!

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57347029/ex-rep-anthony-weiner-wife-welcome-son/?tag=stack

    elissa (c4b759)

  221. Dustin gets upset when someone does NOT directly respond to his challenges;

    Not really. I’ve asked both daleyrocks and Haiku a number of questions, usually in response to their questions, and they rarely were answering mine, so I did ask Daleyrocks why and he explained he doesn’t have to if he doesn’t want to. And he’s right about that. So I’ve asked fewer questions.

    My problem was actually that someone was being very dishonest about me Icy.

    Icy, you seem way too upset with me. It’s never made any sense. I’m not trying to re-litigate all that. I want to talk about tax policy, Obama, the GOP candidates. I don’t want to talk about how whiny Icy was when I called out a dishonest sockpuppet.

    I do want to say I appreciated when you noted I had never said anything bigoted or offensive. That was helpful in underlying why I was annoyed.

    Icy, you have been extremely personal and rude (even calling me ‘dick’ and classless) and I’ve been rude too, to be honest. Let’s bury the hatchet, knowing we’re both imperfect, and just talk politics.

    I know I’ve asked you to do this repeatedly, and each time you just show up to bash me out of the blue anyway, but eventually you’re going to get it. There’s no ‘winning’ the kind of fight you keep trying to have with me.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  222. Elissa, good for them.

    I hope they work it out.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  223. Icy,

    Your proving my point over and over and over…..

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  224. I wish the Sultans of Smear could refrain from turning every thread, especially those not directly related to the presidential election, into a tiresome daily Romney bashing-

    Daleyrocks, you have a fair point here.

    I will try to avoid bashing Romney.

    In fact, I wanted to bash Romney in the occupy NYT thread, when Haiku joked about being paid to run an organization into the ground. Just so you know.

    I actually have tried to avoid bringing Romney up gratuitously.

    Let’s see if you guys can show the same grace.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  225. Eric, I appreciate that you have been a man of your word regarding laying off Palin. It’s shown me that you’re sincerely here to contribute.

    Just wanted to note that.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  226. Aww, a new little Weiner

    Icy (311d3f)

  227. Dustin,

    I dont think you’ve lied about Romney at all, or in fact anything except the fact you are a Bill White loving demcrat :)

    ///ducks – runs for life

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  228. Icy

    I wouldnt make fun of a baby, whatever Weiner did – its over, hopefully he learned his lesson and I wish the family only the best

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  229. The fact is, Icy and Daleyrocks are not worth me get angry at.

    I don’t mean the are worth less… I mean they really aren’t bad people and there are bad people worth me getting angry at.

    Arguing about politics is something I do for fun. This is supposed to be fun. I have much better folks to get angry at if for some bizarre reason I want to fight online.

    I really don’t think there’s any reason to be angry at me, either. Maybe you just can’t understand how I can honestly criticize Romney the way I do (even if I painstakingly explained it 500 times), but unless you read zero blogs, you know whatever illusion I’m under must be pretty common.

    Aww, a new little Weiner

    Comment by Icy —

    I laughed.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  230. What a saint!

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  231. you are a Bill White loving demcrat

    Jeez, I forgot all about that.

    It is very funny, now that you mention it.

    Some Texas democrats are good leaders. But that is quickly changing. It’s getting to the point where I’m a strict partisan and just about every democrat is off my map ideologically.

    That is really bad news. Republicans can get away with more, and democrats don’t even try to win my vote. I think everything has shifted left, but people have always been saying that.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  232. What a saint!

    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    Nope. Not saying I’m better than anybody else. I’m saying such fighting is pointless while noting I’ve been fighting too and am hoping I can get past that.

    But your answer is like many of your comments. Instigation, fighting, and boring to those who wanted to talk politics.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  233. Dustin

    I never understood why White – who was in that class of severly conservative democrats with strong socials morals – didnt switch parties with all his colleagues.

    I know Icy meant no harm I just didnt want to hear the faux outrage cries from our lefty contributors

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  234. Well Beldar, Bill White speaks highly of him, whereas there are some GOPers like Loeffler, lobbyist for Saudi Arabia, in this day and age

    narciso (87e966)

  235. Icy, you seem way too upset with me.
    — Not at all. I argue for the sake of expressing my opinions and debating the reasonableness (and, sometimes, the facts upon which they are based) of the opinions with which I disagree, period.

    I do want to say I appreciated when you noted I had never said anything bigoted or offensive. That was helpful in underlying why I was annoyed.
    — I have never thought that you are bigoted against Mormons. It is my OPINION that it serves no good purpose to speculate on how big of a role Romney’s faith plays in his decision making, even if it’s in the form of “Hey, anyone with trepidations about Mormonism can relax because his faith doesn’t factor into his decisions.” This is because, A) I don’t think anyone, outside of the man himself, knows how big of a role it plays, despite any “evidence” to the contrary; and B) Until and unless some evidence of Romney’s priest saying “G– damn America” comes to light, then it should not be an issue. So I guess that’s the “referee” in me saying you’re arguing a point that is really only held to be important by prejudiced individuals. And as much as I would LOVE for Lawrence O’Donnell to join us here on Pat’s little blog to debate & discuss the LDS . . . probably not gonna happen.

    Icy, you have been extremely personal and rude (even calling me ‘dick’ and classless) and I’ve been rude too, to be honest. Let’s bury the hatchet, knowing we’re both imperfect, and just talk politics.
    — Agreed. And I hope that in future you will not so easily jump to the conclusion that my comments are meant to be an attack on the person rather than being an expression of disagreement with that person’s opinions.

    Icy (311d3f)

  236. Agreed. And I hope that in future you will not so easily jump to the conclusion that my comments are meant to be an attack on the person rather than being an expression of disagreement with that person’s opinions.

    Same to you, and thanks.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  237. What a saint!

    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    Nope. Not saying I’m better than anybody else. I’m saying such fighting is pointless while noting I’ve been fighting too and am hoping I can get past that.

    But your answer is like many of your comments. Instigation, fighting, and boring to those who wanted to talk politics.

    Comment by Dustin

    Give it a rest already, Dustin. I was referring to Anthony Weiner.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  238. So I guess that’s the “referee” in me saying you’re arguing a point that is really only held to be important by prejudiced individuals. And as much as I would LOVE for Lawrence O’Donnell to join us here on Pat’s little blog to debate & discuss the LDS . . . probably not gonna happen.

    Unfortunately, I think such arguments still take place. I do not see a reason to bring the up, but if someone is referencing Romney’s religion, I will usually say something.

    The truth is, I do think people who are social conservatives should hold it against Romney that he flip flopped on abortion like that.

    Mainly this is because it’s disturbing for someone to take that kind of issue and treat it as Romney has. Not because I am arguing for the best [insert religion].

    Maybe I handled that less carefully than I should have. I didn’t think it bother many people. I just think we have so many critical issues (like spending and energy) that it is basically insane to focus on religiousity (and I’ve criticized Perry for this repeatedly).

    I was trying to evoke JFK’s defense. He said he wasn’t controlled by Catholicism. I think it’s fair to say Romney isn’t either. There is no reason to think Mormonism would lead him to make a wrong decision as president.

    If you think I was trying to say we need to elect a more reliable Mormon (perhaps because I’ve noted I don’t have a problem with Huntsman), this is a misunderstanding.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  239. Give it a rest already, Dustin. I was referring to Anthony Weiner.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/22/2011 @ 10:21 am

    I apologize.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  240. I must say, I do like Weiner’s wife, even if she did lick the carpet in Hillary’s hotel room.

    Icy (311d3f)

  241. daleyrocks #219:

    “Indeed, the vast, vast majority of health insurance in MA is now subsidized by the taxpayers (And I don’t mean just MA Taxpayers).”

    Dustin – Some proof of this claim would be nice to see.

    I agree it’s not the “vast, vast majority.” Just 34.9%.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  242. Icy, she handled this crap a lot better than most wives do.

    She didn’t stand by her man (which I usually find very insincere).

    I can only imagine how difficult it was to have the pregnancy and the scandal coincide like that.

    I think I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ve met Weiner and had a few conversations with him. He came across as a very sincere moderate and was lightly funny. This is nothing like what he became with his loud and ridiculous leftist demagoguery.

    I think DC ruins people, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if Weiner actually learned some humility from this mess. Obviously I don’t support the guy politically, and the way he tried to convince the world he was hacked was incredibly dishonorable and has actually harmed a lot of innocent people (because goons retaliated), but hopefully Weiner has pulled his head out of his ass by now.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  243. I doubt it, Dustin.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  244. I think people who view themselves as fiscal conservatives need to reject the one candidate – Rick Perry – who has a documented record of selling access to his state’s highest elected office and who has greased the skids for multi-billion dollar contract awards to his cronies.

    We’ve seen enough of that with Obama and Solyndra, LightSquared, etc..

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  245. Geez, I realize that Karl’s the only post today, and the NYT is boring, but don’t you people need to go buy some Christmas presents or something?

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  246. Depends… have you been a better boy than you were last year, AD?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  247. Well, I haven’t shot anyone…Yet!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  248. DRJ, I had been under the impression that all but a few thousand MA insurees (four digits) were benefiting at some level from government subsidee, at least indirectly.

    That’s not to mean some safety net at the bottom.

    That’s to mean even those who are relatively well off.

    I’m talking about a pervasive set of controls, such as the Health Care Quality and Cost Council and the way the state negotiated with insurers for price, offering, of course, mandated insurance.

    This entire system is costing taxpayers a lot of money, but also providing all but a few with reduced cost for insurance if they were going to get it anyway.

    The entire point of Masscare was to force people to fund a program without Romney actually directly and literally raising taxes. You’re still paying a huge tax, though, when you comply with the mandate. When the government forces you to pay for the government’s system, that’s a tax in the general sense.

    There’s a dizzying array of policies that are often hard to trace out, such as how employers in MA are taxed more if they employ ten people, to fund health care, or the free rider surcharge, or Commonwealth Care, where anyone earning less than 150% of the poverty line gets premium free and deductible free care. And yes, your link shows that Romney did not actually produce a more conservative result than massive subsidy for a large number of people, but I’m talking about a more generalized issue.

    It’s so pervasive how taxpayers wind up soaked when government is trying to control the economy, and I think Masscare is a very good example.

    On the one hand, those paying the highest tax level are paying more than their share. They aren’t, in total, subsidized. Daleyrocks is right. On the other hand, their health care and insurance are subsidized. Nevertheless, prices are going up, so the system is not successful and they aren’t benefiting.

    It’s a mess, in other words.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  249. I’m giving myself an early gift… I recorded “Bram Stoker’s Dracula”, which I’ll be viewing today. A great movie, and not just because of Gary Oldman’s performance as the Count, or Tom Waits’s all too brief turn as Renfield. I enjoy watching and listening to Keanu Reeves go back and forth between what could possibly be the worst attempt at a British accent ever and his SoCalese. Sometimes in mid-sentence.

    Truly delightful.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  250. I doubt it, Dustin.

    Comment by DRJ —

    Well, I wouldn’t bet against you. If he returns to politics, he’s making a huge mistake.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  251. Geez, I realize that Karl’s the only post today, and the NYT is boring, but don’t you people need to go buy some Christmas presents or something?
    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 12/22/2011 @ 10:37 am

    — Too true. See ya!

    Icy (311d3f)

  252. Texas has 27.2% uninsured, which means federal, state and local governments subsidize emergency care for almost 30% of Texans. Meanwhile, Massachusetts has 34.9% uninsured + subsidized whose care is subsidized by state and federal government.

    Both states are struggling to provide health care to a third of their populations. In addition, even though both states approach health care from opposite philosophical directions, each has seen increases in costs as health care costs have gone up. Maybe it’s just difficult to get that one-third to afford and/or pay for things like health care, no matter where they live.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  253. Dustin, there is always room for the scum Weiner has become, in NY, or NYC, politics.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  254. Kevin Costner was smart; in his Robin Hood film he didn’t even attempt an accent.

    Icy (311d3f)

  255. Costs for covering the uninsured…

    Here in my little corner of suburbia SE of L.A., the local hospital has been, like most others, eaten alive by the costs of walk-in care in the E-room.
    So much, that they are now in the process of establishing a separate clinic on a nearby major thoroughfare to take this load off of them so that they can concentrate on trauma-care, and not have to deal with sniffles and ingrown toenails as emergincies.

    Whether this will keep the wolf from the door, only time will tell.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  256. Dustin,

    I think one problem with RomneyCare is that demand has gone up. Interestingly, it wasn’t only increased demand for care from doctors and clinics. Demand at safety-net facilities like ER rooms has gone up as well. Apparently even after they became insured, many people have continued to seek out care at ERs and similar venues.

    I really wonder if we’re trying to change people’s health care choices with insurance, even though insurance may not have been the reason they made those choices.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  257. Dustin, there is always room for the scum Weiner has become, in NY, or NYC, politics.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 12/22/2011 @ 10:53 am

    No doubt.

    Did y’all know there are still people posting horrible conspiracy theories about all this? There are still people who think Weiner was hacked, too, but that’s minor leagues compared to what they are willing to say about good people. It drives me nuts to see it.

    It is an ugly world online.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  258. Obama is postponing his vacation to hawaii……….oh gosh he must be a hero.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  259. I really wonder if we’re trying to change people’s health care choices with insurance, even though insurance may not have been the reason they made those choices.

    Comment by DRJ — 12/22/2011 @ 11:01 am

    Interesting. So you’re saying perhaps people who were not taking preventative care can’t be forced into doing it, even after the tremendous expense of Mass care? They still wind up clogging up emergency rooms?

    It’s not that the conservative way is utopia. It’s that the conservative way realizes there is no utopia and we should let people make their choices in a way that encumbers as few other folks as possible.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  260. Extending it for a year……………is the same as not extending it.

    Makes sense for a lefty.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  261. 99% of the Geithners of the world don’t pay their taxes and jailtime doesn’t change it.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  262. AD:

    So much, that they are now in the process of establishing a separate clinic on a nearby major thoroughfare to take this load off of them so that they can concentrate on trauma-care, and not have to deal with sniffles and ingrown toenails as emergencies.

    Our community took that route about 10 years ago and it helped reduce costs and provide routine care, especially for children and illegal immigrants. But there were still many that used the ER for routine health care.

    I don’t know this for sure but based on anecdotal observations when my kids were at the ER, I think what stopped that was a change in the way ER doctors handled those patients. Everyone got the same care but the hospital stopped filling ER prescriptions in its pharmacy and instead provided written scripts for brand medications to be filled at local pharmacies. Everyone could get samples and generics at their local physician or at a clinic. It’s amazing how quickly the lines at the ERs thinned out.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  263. Oh, it’s about the stuff they could walk out with?

    Color me naive again.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  264. The entire system is nuts.
    We established employer paid healthcare insurance as a way around WW-2 wage & price controls (which were mistakes 1 & 2), and we keep attempting to come up with corrective measures to deal with the defects previously established; when what needs to be done is to scrap the entire system and start over.
    Wage & Price Controls were wrong for how they push demand down stream which has severe inflationary disruptions – the correct way would have been to let the market price everything accordingly. RR proved this by ending the “gas crisis” by the simple act of taking off all of the regulatory restrictions and letting the market price gasoline. Whenever their is an “oil shock” today, no one has to line up, odd-and-even, to get gas, there is always a ready supply, it just costs more (or less), and the market corrects.

    With the passage of Medicare as part of the Great Society, low and no cost medical care was extended to a vast segment of the population that had previously used cost as a marker in determining whether or not to access physicians for relatively minor ailments.
    No more, they just went to the Dr. since Uncle Sugar was paying for it, and presto – bammo, Dr’s offices became full and run like assembly lines; many times you never even see a Dr but a Nurse-Practitioner, who prescribes you an expensive version of the OTC meds you took prior to Medicare for your aches and pains.

    Anyway, I’m not the expert on this, but I read one right here at PP: Mike K!
    He has had, and does have, a lot of good thoughts on this screwed up system we’ve allowed to be imposed upon us. It’s unfortunate that more voices like his aren’t being heard in the corridors of power.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  265. “Maybe y’all can stop your bickering long enough to join together in welcoming the new Weiner baby!”

    What???

    What we’re supposed to celebrate the birth of a new (potential) lefty scumbag?

    Being a leftard/Dem lowlife might be learned behavior, but it might have a genetic component as well (look at the Kennedys, for a possible example).

    I wouldn’t be celebrating, if I was you.

    Now, if I heard Weiner was sterile, I might consider throwing a party to celebrate that.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  266. Dave, after the last few weeks of near cut throat agression on this blog I welcome the memory of “the monster thread”. I’m sort of nostalgic that way.

    elissa (c4b759)

  267. “Dave, after the last few weeks of near cut throat agression on this blog…”

    Yeah, I’ve seen it, even though I haven’t posted much the last couple of months.

    And, it’s absurd, because there isn’t a single Republican worth getting partisan about who has his/her hat in the presidential ring.

    They’re all losers.

    Perry looks like the best of the lot to me, but he’s not even close to being good enough that I’d get upset if someone tears into him.

    If I vote for any of them, I’ll be holding my nose the entire time.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  268. new weiner baby
    look for Mark of Da Beast or
    Hebrew National®?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  269. If I vote for any of them, I’ll be holding my nose the entire time.

    None of them are Ronald Reagan.

    But all three are major improvements over the current President.

    Perry’s initial debate performance I forgave because Texas was on fire, but that doesn’t work forever. Fortunately he’s improved, but no one will mistake this man for Ronald Reagan. And if you’re saying you think Perry is actually pretty moderate, I think there’s a basis for that. He has shown a compassionate conservative streak with one of the most annoying comments of the this election season.

    Still, I’m in awe of what is passably Republican when looking at the competition.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  270. “I agree it’s not the “vast, vast majority.” Just 34.9%.”

    DRJ – I would hazard that the 34.9% figure you link is not all that different from many other states in the breakdown in coverage (of those covered by insurance) between employer provided insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.

    What I find ironic is those rabid Perry supporters demonizing Romney seem blissfully unaware of how Texas has already socialized many of the costs which Romney cited as one of the motivators of Romney care in the first place. It’s hardly a conservative approach for Texas commenters to say they were doing what liberal Massachusetts was doing now is it?

    To start, examine the Texas Health Insurance Pool, which has been in operation since 1996. It serves as an insurer of last resort for individuals who cannot obtain health insurance in private market. By regulation, its premiums are maxed out at 200% of the private market. It is funded by premiums, assessments on insurers doing business in the state and some available federal dollars. Although small with 25,000 enrollees, it still generated a net loss of $97 million in 2010, which was funded by assessments on insurance companies writing health insurance in Texas, IOW, paid for by Texas consumers.

    http://txhealthpool.com/final_053111.pdf

    The uninsured figure you cite for Texas is not comparable to the 34.9% for Massachusetts. For Texas it represents people not signed up for any coverage, even if they are eligible. According to a report from the State Comptroller;

    The state’s uncompensated acute-care hospital
    expenses (emergency room and other
    urgent care) totaled $460 per resident in
    2006, not including uncompensated costs incurred
    by charitable clinics or physicians. The
    U.S. average for such costs was $287.57

    (Page 26)

    In the same report, noting that hospital districts can levy property taxes to pay for indigent care, the Comptroller noted such indigent care levies as follows;

    In 2008, Texas’ 150 hospital districts levied
    $1.9 billion in property taxes.

    (Page 14)

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/healthcare/pdf/HealthcareReport.pdf

    Basically, I have no problem with policy disagreements. If they are misleading, such as comparing Texas state spending to Massachusetts state spending, I take issue because the commenter has obviously not taken the time to figure out how the differently state and local government spending interact in the two states to make the comparison misleading rather than informative.

    Also, I feel the claim the Romney care is the same as Obamacare because they both have a mandate is blatantly misleading to anybody who understand the mechanics and scope of the two pieces of legislation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  271. Oh then there’s [object TextRange]:

    Unlike the tone-deaf $10,000 bet challenge to Perry, a challenge to debate seems entirely reasonable, considering the attacks on Gingrich and his commitment to keep the campaign positive. Romney’s decision to decline, while understandable from a tactical viewpoint, may not be a winner strategically speaking. In this cycle, voters want someone who will fight for conservative principles, or at least fight Barack Obama in the general election with tenacity and enthusiasm. If Romney can’t handle Gingrich in a one-on-one debate, some voters might conclude that Gingrich — or another Republican — might be more inclined toward tenacity and enthusiasm than Romney.

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  272. And I feel speaking the truth abotu Romney is misleading and demeaning

    FIFY daleyrocks.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  273. I admit readily I demean Romney.

    I think Romneycare is a lot closer to socialism than it is to conservatism, and I hate seeing what that’s doing to our country and our kids’ future.

    Misleading? Not intentionally. I wouldn’t have a problem with Romney if I had to mislead people into thinking he’s so liberal.

    Of course it’s very convenient for Romney that every single attack on him seems to be explainable if you severely twist the facts around. Who can keep up with the hundreds of pages of that?

    Texas is a relative huge success, and MA was 47th out of 50. Perry successfully cut spending and enacted tort reform… sometimes with harder fights than he’s credited with. Romney continues to praise Mass Care as “conservative”, and is a shameless flip flopper.

    I know, if you try hard enough, you can show how nothing is a flip flop. But I think that kind of effort is extremely misleading, if unintentionally so.

    For example, Romney praised Obamacare’s individual mandate (he phrased it as the inventive Obamacare has in common with Romneycare it uses to get everyone on health insurance) last year and now he says that’s wrong and he will repeal the whole enchilada. I say that’s a flip flop, but if you really strive to explain it, no, not a flip flop. Or for example, abortion. Romney championed abortion rights, and claimed he did for 37 years, but I’ve seen it said that he never really flip flopped on this issue when he said Roe V Wade must be repealed and he’s a pro life candidate, relying on the Hillary Clinton safe rare and legal waffle.

    This isn’t a problem worth getting excited about. Most of the GOP has rejected Romney. They know, when these excuses are offered, that it’s BS, that Romney is a tax and spend liberal, and that Perry has a more conservative record. This is why the real argument centers around electability (in other words, fear).

    Dustin (cb3719)

  274. “Hey, abotu!”

    – Lou Costello

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  275. Misleading? Not intentionally.

    LOL funny!

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  276. Seriously, daley… Dustin is a lost cause. He’d be a Kos Kiddie if his politics were of a leftist nature.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  277. Haiku continues to be unparalleled in the persuasive force of his little cries.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  278. “None of them are Ronald Reagan.”

    That reminds me of how little I thought of Reagan 1n 1980, and how pleasantly surprised I was when he turned out to be a much better president than I thought he was going to be.

    Obviously, with my great distate for liberalism/socialism and anything connected with the Jim Crow Party, pretty much anyone would be a step up from Barack Obama…but, not Gingrich.

    He’s an amoral swine, who would lie to God to get what he wanted (wanted for himself that is), and I wouldn’t support him even if I agreed with his politics…which I often don’t.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  279. Dave, sometimes it takes an amoral swine to keep the Barbarians from getting through the gates.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  280. “Dave, sometimes it takes an amoral swine to keep the Barbarians from getting through the gates.”

    That’s a great theory AD…right up until the moment the amoral gatekeeper decides to take a bribe from the barbarians, and opens the gates for them.

    And any guy that would betray his wife, his God, and God’s commandments would sell us out to the barbarians in a heartbeat, if he thought it was worth his while.

    I’ll never vote for Gingrich. I wouldn’t trust him with a burnt out match, much less with political power.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  281. Dave, I don’t think Newt’s that bad, but I do think that way of many politicians, so I won’t tell you it’s wrong to conclude such awful things about many of them.

    And at least Newt would and can fight. Of the two ‘moderates’ Romney can’t fight effectively and Newt can.

    I’d rather go with Perry, of course.

    One reason is I am looking at the GOP’s history.

    I’m looking at our presidential candidates.

    We have the ones widely seen as ‘conservative’ more or less, by the media or the country or just me, and ones widely seen as ‘moderate’.

    Dubya in 2000 and 2004 was portrayed as conservative.

    Bush 41 in 1988, also was seen as a continuation of Reagan’s conservative term.

    Reagan was seen as conservative in 1980 and 1984.

    Nixon wasn’t revealed as moderate until during his first term, and was seen as more conservative in 1968.

    Those guys won.

    Then there are the other guys. John Mccain and Bob Dole. Bush 41 in 1992, after he was captain UN and mr Tax hike. Ford. Nixon after he really upset the right on many issues.

    I perceive that the GOP candidate is much weaker when we make the mistake of trying to be the centrist moderate party, and much stronger when we clearly stand for something.

    My first day of Poli Sci 101, they told me all the votes are in the center, and the smart politicians just shoot to the center, duh. This isn’t true. Americans want their leader to be a leader.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  282. Ronald Reagan was an amnesty, entitlement loving moderate who was strong on national defense and business. What you would expect from a California Republican.

    Reagan was never ever a conservative, he was against handgun ownership, he signed some of the most restrictive personal rights measures California ever saw

    The HUGE problem we have with runaway entitlements was Reagans absurd wish for a 500 ship navy and a 5000 plane airforce which most will never fire a shot and many of the ships were built and never sailed at a colossal waste of taxpayers money.

    Yes Reagan stood up to communism strongly and resolutely but we as a nation paid a terrible price even today for his entitlement and amnesty policies – this according to his son.

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  283. I stand corrected and my apologies to felipe. Now I must tend to my reindeer, but will be back shortly.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/22/2011 @ 8:45 am

    Thank you, Colonel, you are an honorable man. I agree wholeheartedly with Icy, that I shoulda’, woulda’, coulda’ responded in the manner that Staishu3 did. Maybe Colonel “Santa” Haiku will forego the lump of coal that I deserve and instead place a little of Stash’s class into my stocking – I’ll even leave some good scotch out for you, Colonel.

    felipe (2ec14c)

  284. 216. Sorry, good buddy, we all have people we will not tolerate, e.g., 80% would not vote for Paul even as a protest, a la, Beck and Coulter.

    I’m of a mind that the opposition to Newt is largely those he crossed or out of the money in a Gingrich Presidency.

    I’d fall into line for Newt, Ricky, Michele for sure. I think most of you are tw*ts for running the slutty flight attendant TLC star out so I give a rip.

    The sooner the shooting starts the better.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  285. Reagan was never ever a conservative,

    Everything is relative.

    I think Perry and Reagan are not too far apart politically.

    Reagan was wrong on immigration, but the military build up was a strategy that I think saved a lot of lives.

    Oh man, we sure are unlikely to do better any time soon.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  286. I think most of you are tw*ts for running the slutty flight attendant TLC star out so I give a rip

    We could have done so much worse than her, too. I thought Palin and Perry had similar political skills and preferred Perry for his much more substantial resume.

    Anyway, hindsight is 20:20.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  287. Oh, Santorum is a Ricky too. I ‘spose I’d roll over.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  288. As always, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  289. 287. “Americans want their leader to be a leader.”

    Arnold Toynebee said “Americans are great because they are good”.

    Not certain when we departed from that narrow road, but about the only candidate regarded as ‘good’ by virtually all, Santorum, doesn’t light anyone’s fire.

    We have virtually a plurality behind the antiChrist. Woe the eff is us.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  290. dustin

    I didnt disagree with a mil buildup it just was waaaay overdone with brandnew submarines never sailing at a cost of over a billion dollars each then being scrapped and scrapping good well tested submarines and support ships for new untested types which many also were scrapped or are still in mothballs today.

    Its funny that the will to use our armed forces had more to do with what we had – Russia already was collapsing before most of these arnaments were finished and manned. Remember reagan authorized and paid for these weapons but they came on line under Bush and Clinton

    We built almost 500 P-2 Orion anti submarine heavy bombers – 12 for every active russian nuclear submarine – most russian subs were in poor repair and partially crewed during Reagans time and rarely sortied from base.

    And then building thousands upon thoousands of worthless M1 tanks – a tank so great that a well led platoon can wipe out Russian tank companies maybe even battalions – a tank soo heavy it cannot go anywhere without a train of support. 5000, 8000 M1 tanks we had enough killing power in 1000 m1 tanks to destroy the standing armies of the world so why build 8000? especially when we had 15,000 perfectly superior tanks at the time?

    Then the building of the unused b1 bomber thank goodness even John Tower stopped that.

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  291. 294. “the perfect is the enemy of the good.”

    A bit gratuitous in the characterization of ‘good’ I’d hazard.

    Herm decried the indentured service of blacks to the party of mendacity and racism. Here, once again, we are shamed into chosing against our own detriment to avoid the detriment of us all.

    When in fact that outcome is in no way a certainty. War can be the cheapest, least cruel means to resolving deep cultural conflict.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  292. I suspect a thorough fact check would reveal that someone is presenting a view of history from an alternate universe. A universe where Reagan was a liberal.

    JD (269dac)

  293. It’s like Biden’s stream of conscience, rant on FDR, where does one start.

    narciso (87e966)

  294. Reagan was never a conservative.

    Whatever.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  295. Reagan was more a conservative and man than you will ever be.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  296. The M1 tank is an amazing and battle proven platform.

    Yeah it’s heavy. It’s a tank.

    It’s like driving the God Damn batmobile (and I speak from experience).

    Anyway, I think Reagan was seen as the leader of the conservative wing of the party since he challenged Ford.

    My point is that the GOP seems to so much better in presidential elections with apparent conservatives than with apparent moderates. People believe in a leader who stands for more than triangulation, at least when they consider a Republican.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  297. The problem of moderates, is moderation – since they are always attempting to reconcile competing causes, they seem (to many observers, and voters) to be less than principled.

    As a noted social observer has said:
    The trouble with being in the middle-of-the-road is, you get run over by traffic in both directions.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  298. Well that’s obvious to any sentient being, what was
    your MOS, Dustin,

    narciso (87e966)

  299. I want to know when he got to drive the Batmobile?

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  300. I was a 13M, so the M-1 was not something I got to operate more than the single time. Radical doesn’t begin to describe it.

    Though the vehicle I was assigned to, an M270, was also part of Reagan’s build up, and it was similarly awesome, though definitely more conventional to drive.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  301. Boehner and McConnell have done themselves proud once again.

    Fire a warning shot over the enemy’s head and bugle disorderly retreat.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  302. No, it’s more like Daffy Duck in ‘Duck Season’ lord love a duck, they don’t even have the playbook.

    narciso (87e966)

  303. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – I would hazard that the 34.9% figure you link is not all that different from many other states in the breakdown in coverage (of those covered by insurance) between employer provided insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.

    I agree. Add in the uninsured and that was my point, too, but apparently I didn’t make it clear.

    What I find ironic is those rabid Perry supporters demonizing Romney seem blissfully unaware of how Texas has already socialized many of the costs which Romney cited as one of the motivators of Romney care in the first place. It’s hardly a conservative approach for Texas commenters to say they were doing what liberal Massachusetts was doing now is it?

    I agree in part. Federal mandates that require Texas (and other states) to provide emergency care to uninsured people have a way of socializing everything.

    I didn’t realize you were so patronizing and sarcastic in the past, but maybe it was simply because I wasn’t the target. It has not been nice discussing this with you and I don’t plan to in the future.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  304. They’re running Congress about as well as the Anaheim Ducks are playing hockey (at least, I think that’s what they’re supposed to be playing) –
    Daffy Duck would be an improvement, Elmer Fudd would be rocket science.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7fc5e6)

  305. Yikes, get me Emilio Estevez stat,

    narciso (87e966)

  306. Comment by narciso — 12/22/2011 @ 5:52 pm

    Winning!

    JBS (14ed7d)

  307. Dustin,

    The M1 tank is the finest battle unit ever designed, whats more amazing is its design is 50 years old. Problem is 300 tanks per division we built nearly 30 divisions worth.

    And we already had the m60 a fine battle tank as well capable of destroying anything te soviets had. And we had thousands of them.

    It was 220 trucks carrying pershing missles that stopped the russki dream, and Reagan’s political will to deploy them, not the trillions spent stupidly on more weapons than we have trained crews to deploy them.

    I watched in new orleans brand new Los Angeles class subs coming to be scrapped at a cost of 1.2 billion each not including the millions it took to dismantle them. the scrapping of the 30+ 637 boats – over 20 688 boats scrapped – no country in the world has subs that can equal 50 we have thrown away.

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  308. “Republicans have also achieved the small miracle of letting Mr. Obama position himself as an election-year tax cutter…”

    Back to the original topic.

    Only complete idiots (aka lefties) will think that. The government is spending more money…and that means tax rates have to go up.

    And the guys that are on payrolls are going to pay those taxes whether it’s collected directly or indirectly (by way of lower wages or increased prices of goods and services, if you tax the owners of corporations).

    That’s the way it works, always has been that way, always will be that way.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  309. DRJ

    What was disengenious is the acknowledgement by that creep that Texas taxpayers have had to pay for the rst of the countrys lack of resolve over thee border and try to critcize the state for it.

    Of course DRJ these other overopinionated loud mouths didnt weigh in on this guys screed against you and the insult to all Texans without even a thankyou for us spending our tax dollars on their problems

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  310. Back to the original topic.
    I may be completely wrong (and someone will tell me if I am), but it seems that the repubs in congress can’t stand on principle or win at political posturing, either one.

    Maybe it was edited out of Boehner’s speech, but I would have liked to hear him say, “It’s a grand stupid idea to renew a payroll tax change, be it cut or increase, for a stinkin’ two months, but if that is what will make the president and the senate happy, good for them.
    “Maybe after the next election cycle there will be some responsible people in the white house and more in the senate. it is still ____ number of days since the dems have approved a budget, and their only attempt at proposing a budget was turned down even by them.”
    “Two months. All of this bickering over 2 lousy months, just so we can start out the new year with more bickering.”

    Now, perhaps i am really missing it here, i am shooting from the hip and all.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  311. Eric — You kept your word on Palin. I admire that.

    MD in Philly #316 — That sounds right to me. Maybe I’m missing something, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  312. Gingrich seems to quoted Boehner,

    Here is the quote that Boehner made: ‘most businesses file quarterly,'” he said. “That’s three months, right? The Senate has passed a two-month extension. That means if you’re a small business and you’re an accountant, or you’re a corporation, they just gave you an entire additional layer of paperwork that is utterly stupid. And yet the senators are so arrogant — And I’m very disappointed in the Republican senators in not demanding Harry Reid come back.”

    Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/12/22/gingrich-offers-choice-words-payroll-tax-cut-standoff/#ixzz1hJzVuzJb

    narciso (87e966)

  313. MD – they are feckless. No spine. Boehner should have stood there and said “we passed this for a year. The Dems in the SenAte could only manage 2 months. Talk to them.”. Then walk away from the podium.

    JD (318f81)

  314. MD, it’s frustrating seeing this recent fight, which appears to mostly be about who wins.

    It’s all a show, and spending is still out of control, but we sent the GOP up there to throw a serious speed bump on the debt level.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  315. Obama can trot out a bill that makes it illegal to be a white republican and the left would insist we need to find common ground and pass the bill.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  316. Honestly, Dustin, sometimes one feels like Pacino’s
    blind major in Scent, at the honor code hearing.

    narciso (87e966)

  317. I think even if Boehner was going to let “them” “win”, he should have made it a poison pill to swallow.

    narciso, thanks for the link, i think that was probably something boehner said earlier

    Then again, Boehner could have said something we would all be happy with but no one will play it…so frustrating. I still dream of the day when there will be a reasonable expectation of performance in journalism so they can be sued for malpractice.

    On Hewitt today there was a discussion about Romney’s wealth being made an issue. Hugh made the suggestion, which i thought was brilliant, for him to say, “I’ll release my tax records after the President releases his records from college and law school”. (Obviously talking about the scenario if romney wins the election).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  318. Dohbiden-

    Now you’ve done it, gone and given them the suggestion.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  319. Well, Brooks and Frum, would say it’s a good deal, not perfect like the one Lando struck with Vader.

    narciso (87e966)

  320. On Hewitt today there was a discussion about Romney’s wealth being made an issue. Hugh made the suggestion, which i thought was brilliant, for him to say, “I’ll release my tax records after the President releases his records from college and law school”.

    Hey, the guy’s investments are still making a lot of money?

    Doesn’t sound like a major liability to me.

    It doesn’t make sense to me how voters would be more jealous of Romney than they are of Obama, who definitely makes a show of living the good life. Maybe I’m seeing this wrong, but I think that’s the wrong move for the left to make.

    It goes without saying that Obama plans to demonize the crap out of the GOP nominee, and that it’s up to the voters to pay attention to the matters that actually affect our lives.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  321. Well, Dustin, just because the President and the First Lady enjoy the spoils of being in power and spending the money of other people is no reason the Left can’t attack someone for being part of the evil 1% who should be sharing their wealth with joe the plumber along with joe the plumber.

    I think bickering over 2 months of tax policy is a bit like fiddling while Rome burns.

    Enough for now, but thank you for the sanity check, need to get to the dishes…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  322. Isn’t Obama rich?

    JD (318f81)

  323. It will be a millionaire calling another millionaire a perforative millionaire.

    JD (318f81)

  324. Paultard far-right anarchists are making friend and influencing people…………not

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  325. Perjorative

    JD (318f81)

  326. The meme is always more important than the facts, JD;

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/12/22/berlusconi-was-framed/#comments

    narciso (87e966)

  327. “I didn’t realize you were so patronizing and sarcastic in the past, but maybe it was simply because I wasn’t the target.”

    DRJ – You were not the target this time either. You have been trying to have a discussion in good faith, while getting some uncharacteristic jabs in on Romney.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  328. “I agree in part. Federal mandates that require Texas (and other states) to provide emergency care to uninsured people have a way of socializing everything.”

    DRJ – I was under the impression that the choice for a state to reimburse providers of indigent care for the care they provided was an election each state made. Massachusetts made such an election and Dukakis set up a separate tax levy to pay for it.

    The obligation of any individual hospital to assume responsibility for uncompensated care may depend on their participation in Medicare, whether they used federal funds for construction, and whether they are a not-for-profit corporation.

    Section 501(c)(3) of the federal tax code exempts corporations organized and operated for religious, charitable, scientific, or educational purposes from federal income tax. Initially, the internal Revenue Service (IRS) required charitable hospitals to give free care “to the extent of their financial ability. ” This was later modified, as more people became insured by private insurance and government programs, to allow hospitals to enjoy tax-exempt status on the condition that they not discriminate among paying patients and that they treat all indigent emergency patients for free. A later ruling held that even free emergency care is not required if an emergency room is not needed or appropriate at a hospital.

    A federal law, known as the “patient anti-dumping” statute, basically requires hospitals participating in the Medicare program to treat patients with potential emergency conditions.

    http://search.cga.state.ct.us/dtsearch.asp?cmd=getdoc&DocId=25914&Index=I%3a\zindex\2001&HitCount=0&hits=&hc=0&req=&Item=599

    I have repeatedly referenced Texas’ much larger issue with uncompensated care than that of Massachusetts and gotten no response. The report of the State Comptroller I linked earlier helps to put it in perspective. Texas, like liberal tax and spend Massachusetts, has chosen to partially socialize the cost of its uncompensated care.

    Romneycare took it the next step, tying the cost to the individual ability to pay.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  329. There you go with The Facts again, daley. Please consider yourself scolded.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  330. But wasn’t Romney showing bravery in this valiant struggle?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  331. Translation of daleyrocks screed-Romneycare is constitutional because of Romney if it were anyone else it’d be against the constitutopn.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  332. English only!

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  333. eh?

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  334. _____________________________________________

    Given that presidents get blamed for bad economies, even under divided government,

    But the history of Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression is quite a puzzle, not only because he kept getting re-elected while the economy remained moribund during most of his time in office, but because most Americans apparently were big suckers for his persona wrapped around a layer of leftism. What’s really ironic and idiotic is how many people blamed (and rightly so) his unpopular predecessor, Republican Herbert Hoover, for aggravating the Great Depression, even though his tax-and-spend policies were ratcheted up several notches when FDR got into the White House.

    It’s worth keeping this in mind because various opinion polls indicate that even today a large percentage of Americans continue to hold George W Bush more accountable for the Great Recession than they do his “goddamn America” successor.

    Moreover, the US in 2011 is more socially and governmentally liberal than it was in the 1930s and 1940s. This explains why Barry Obama does as well as he does in opinion polls compared with the way a hypothetical president would have fared over 60 years ago if he were both racially and ideologically (eg, Jeremiah Wright’s buddy) similar to the current occupant of the White House.

    Signs of a dumbed-down society, well on its way to traveling the same road taken by Argentina, Greece and Mexico, with a detour to Detroit, Chicago and Oakland, and then a side trip to the proverbial Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  335. constitution*

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  336. English only=means submit to Romneys manliness.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  337. On a tangent but related-
    Just found out that a relative was being deceived in her health care. Years ago was referred to an endocrinologist who figured out some things and she was doing much better. Then had some visits with a physicians assistant at the same office. After many months to years she was having problems and asked to see the endocrinologist instead of the PA, but was always given a reason why she couldn’t…turns out he had left that group and was on his own elsewhere, which she found out after seeing him in the hospital after being admitted because of mismanagement of her condition…
    She is better and has not suffered permanently from the deception, but I can’t believe it is “OK” to not inform a patient that the person they want to see is no longer with the office but can be reached at another place if they wish to.
    At least if it is not the govt that pulls something like this you have recourse…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  338. Well there is a problem, because even under the center right New Democrats, the problem still persisted in Greece, although not under the Karamlis, Kirchner wouldn’t have won, if not for
    the assistance of QE 2, as Mary Anastasia O’Grady
    pointed out, and Mexico has been run by the PAN, for the better part of a dozen years.

    narciso (87e966)

  339. I think the biggest obstacle for Romney is that the 23% who back him seem compelled to divulge their identity.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  340. Liberals truly do not care about liberty.

    True Liberals who are pissed off at Obama for his anti-freedom claptrap are better than Obama.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  341. “…and then a side trip to the proverbial Sodom and Gomorrah.”

    I’m trying to figure out why anyone would want to take a side trip to San Francisco.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  342. Comment by MD in Philly — 12/22/2011 @ 8:25 pm

    Instinct says you’re right, although I don’t think the clinic/practice/whatever it was is obligated to tell her where the doctor went to. But they ought to have told her her MD was no longer there. OTOH, I suspect that if challenged they could point to evidence she overlooked (for instance, the disappearance of his name off prescription forms used by the office).

    My mother and I used to see GI doctors who worked together at the Cleveland Clinic in Florida. First she was unable to book an appointment with her doctor two months out; then we got a letter from him announcing his departure, and finally a couple of months later giving his new office location–he had gone into practice with another GI doctor from CCF. Almost the same thing happened a few months later, when my doctor also left CCF to join his erstwhile colleagues in their new practice. We still use them, btw.

    JBS (14ed7d)

  343. To get their heart back, obviously.

    JBS (14ed7d)

  344. Update, I heard a short clip of Boehner talking about coming to DC to change how things are done instead of short term fixes, so it seems he continues to try to point out the foolishness of what the president and senate wanted to do, so, good job.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  345. (oopsie–349 was in reply to 347)

    JBS (14ed7d)

  346. JBS, Perhaps there is no specific legal obligation to inform, but as an MD I think it is unethical and if I was in an office that did this I would let the administration know it was a bad practice. I think a jury could be persuded it was inappropriate as well. Actually my understanding is that quite a few malpractice claims are triggered by bad interactions with office staff. A person or family feels they are being mistreated and their recourse is to sue the doc.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  347. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – You were not the target this time either. You have been trying to have a discussion in good faith, while getting some uncharacteristic jabs in on Romney.

    I’m not making myself clear because I wasn’t jabbing at Romney, I was pointing out that Texas and Massachusetts are dealing with the same problem — albeit in different ways. Hopefully I’ve made that clear now.

    I was under the impression that the choice for a state to reimburse providers of indigent care for the care they provided was an election each state made. Massachusetts made such an election and Dukakis set up a separate tax levy to pay for it.

    You’ve lost me here. My understanding is federal law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) requires that any hospital receiving Medicare dollars must provide emergency care regardless of the patient’s ability to pay. As a result, hospitals in every state have to deal with unreimbursed health care costs, and in Texas most of those hospitals are operated by government entities (usually counties). In such cases, county taxpayers are obligated to cover shortfalls in hospital operating revenues.

    I agree with you that RomneyCare tries to balance its health care shortfall by maximizing individual contributions. Texas has chosen other ways, perhaps in part because Texans are less amenable to individual mandates and also because we have more lower income residents. But whatever the reasons, the point is every state has been forced to deal with this because of federal law.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  348. Climate Change AKA gorebull warming is causing extinction by raising the population……………ahahahahahahaha love the chicken littles at the WWF.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  349. ______________________________________________

    Mexico has been run by the PAN, for the better part of a dozen years.

    But that’s like saying California is a red state — meaning it leans firmly to the right — because Arnold Schwarzenegger and Pete Wilson were elected to the position of governor during the past few decades. Actually, in that regard, more of Calif’s voters did give the nod to such politicians, since the only reason that Mexico’s version of a Republican (or “centrist” or squish) was elected to succeed Vincente Fox was because a huge majority of Mexicans split their vote between two liberals in a three-way race in the last presidential election.

    As for Greece, I’m aware its former prime minister was not the outright socialist/leftist who now occupies that office. But I imagine there is so much squish in Greek politics, that their version of a Republican/conservative would be analogous to an Arnold Schwarzenegger taking on the entrenched liberal interests and bureaucracy in Sacramento and, most importantly, all the left-leaning biases oozing out of much of California’s electorate.

    Sappy, lazy liberalism is a built-in flaw evident in the human mind of people throughout the world, and so variations of it can be found just about everywhere.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  350. the polar bears*

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  351. The word liberal has been hijacked just call them marxists.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  352. I’m not making myself clear because I wasn’t jabbing at Romney

    DRJ – I was referring to prior threads when you were grilling me about Romneycare.

    You’ve lost me here. My understanding is federal law (the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) requires that any hospital receiving Medicare dollars must provide emergency care regardless of the patient’s ability to pay. As a result, hospitals in every state have to deal with unreimbursed health care costs, and in Texas most of those hospitals are operated by government entities (usually counties).

    OK. In instances where hospitals are owned by government entities I can agree with you. In Massachusetts, that was not the case. How do for profit hospitals operating in Texas deal with the issue, since patient dumping is theoretically illegal?

    Texas has chosen other ways, perhaps in part because Texans are less amenable to individual mandates and also because we have more lower income residents.

    I think there’s also a much bigger perceived difference moving from 92% insured in Massachusetts up to 98% than from the current Texas level of 74% up to 98%. The scale of the issue is orders of magnitude different.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  353. 358. “The scale of the issue is [an order] of magnitude different”

    FIFY

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  354. 353. “You’ve lost me here.”

    I agree, the point is so subtle as to be a waste of one’s consideration.

    “Brevity is the soul of wit”, but having a point its ‘raison de etre’.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  355. Mark, the Karamanlis clan has been in charge, on and off since the 70s, sort of the Dole/Bushes,

    narciso (87e966)

  356. For anyone who cares, here is my take on why Obama’s victory isn’t as big as his cheerleaders are claiming.

    steve (369bc6)

  357. “I agree, the point is so subtle as to be a waste of one’s consideration.”

    gary – How about, now that DRJ points it out, Texas has a heckuva lot of socialized medicine through its county hospital system which taxpayers subsidize. Why require a mandate if you already providing free care directly through the state?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  358. You’re really naive you think the MSM won’t pound this notion, with the force of a thousand suns;

    http://melaniephillips.com/a-fearful-symmetry

    narciso (87e966)

  359. Comment by MD in Philly — 12/22/2011 @ 8:25 pm

    After many months to years she was having problems and asked to see the endocrinologist instead of the PA, but was always given a reason why she couldn’t…turns out he had left that group and was on his own elsewhere, which she found out after seeing him in the hospital after being admitted because of mismanagement of her condition…

    She was lied to. There’s a problem here. It probably only became possible with multi-physician practices.

    She is better and has not suffered permanently from the deception, but I can’t believe it is “OK” to not inform a patient that the person they want to see is no longer with the office but can be reached at another place if they wish to.

    I think there may be a malpractice lawsuit against this place, except that in the end the consequences weren’t so bad, so maybe no lawyer would want it. (Malpractice is someone putting themselves forth in place, in effect, of another physician – that is, not making mistakes, but making mistakes someone else wouldn’t make, going below the so-called “standard of care”)

    Here they contrived to get her to use care she wouldn’t otherwise use.

    They deserve to be sued even if it costs money, although really this would have to be stopped some other way.

    It’s a warning to people. Were there some other clues besides not being able to see the physician she used before?

    >i> At least if it is not the govt that pulls something like this you have recourse…

    Sammy Finkelman (b17872)

  360. 363. Americans are hooked on getting someone else to handle their bill.

    MN, beside accepting its Medicare and Medicaid mandated burden pays back its hospitals 50+ million for the shortfall.

    Doctors, go p*ss up a rope.

    MN is one of the last in line for Fed payback and were still Vermont of the Midwest. Doesn’t make MA anything but a passel of f*ckwits.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  361. gary – English please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  362. Translation of 367-Gary worship Romney or die.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  363. By the way Romneys stance that women should have a right to abort babies because it comes out deformed and might be an embarassment is sickening.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  364. Dohbiden – English please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  365. Dohbiden – Because coherence is too much to ask.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  366. 367. Daley, thought please.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  367. Daley your anklebiting is useless to anyone who’s not made up their mind. It’s a pointless game in gotcha for those who have.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  368. Don’t let the Running of the Pomeranians of Bemidji, Minn. bother you, daley.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  369. Meanwhile, the premiums of current recipients, tripled while a sample just outside the margin of error, got coverage,

    narciso (87e966)

  370. 363. Let’s put it in Cook County English.

    MN gets less of its Federal levy back.

    MN gets as fine a healthcare as MA, or anyone else. Medical outfits may be headquartered in MA more often but their engineers labor here as often. WI and MI med schools supply MN as certainly as MA.

    MN makes up for the shortfall to hospitals as MA and neither worry about the doctors.

    Healthcare is cheaper in MN.

    Your point is effectively more people pay more than their healthcare is worth in MA so the wealth is spread more deeply?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  371. How come when people criticize Romney his ball massagers ask for us to speak english.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  372. Romney’s fans, when they aren’t insulting everybody (this thread is just another amusing example) often describe freedom as though it’s a problem.

    Oh no! too few Texans made the “right” decision! The scale of the problem is a magnitude worse than in MA!

    This is how Romney justifies forcing everyone to buy insurance, or else they face a four digit fine, as “conservative”, and uses this tax (I know, he claims it’s not a tax if folks pay ten grand on insurance because of a government initiative) to fund free health care. It’s not conservative. It’s socialism.

    Texas’s use of county hospitals is not uncommon in this country, and sure, it’s not really all that conservative, but it is common sense. Someone shows up in a hospital dying and the doctors helps him even if he has no way to pay. Whoop dee do.

    It’s important to minimize abuse, such as DRJ’s point about prescriptions, but abuse is inevitable.

    But the solution is not to crank up demand like a retard, Romneycare style, driving prices through the roof and forcing subjects to prove to the state they made the ‘right’ decision.

    Folks who disagree are not stupid and don’t deserve the constant elitist sneering they get from Romney’s fans.

    It’s not our fault Romney actually defines conservative as “romneycare”. He owns that predictable disaster. For all the whining that it’s the democrats who ruined it, Romney didn’t even run for reelection, so apparently he wasn’t so concerned.

    This is just one of a large number of Romney’s failures as a leader. Looking back to the post, where the GOP loses sight of the big picture by negotiating with democrats about more minor issues, let’s remember that Romney is quite bad about this. On strong gun control, this is how the state imposed a $100 gun tax. Romney wanted most of the increase, and that became the “right” mainstream view, and the final negotiated result was even worse.

    That is what Romney’s administration would be like. The democrats show no sign of lying down. Newt and Perry have won battles with the liberals, but Romney has lost every single time. He even loses these battles before his campaign is over, such as when he pretended he thought Roe v Wade was a good law.

    It’s important to me that the right-most mainstream view of things is not “individual mandate”. Just think how much that concedes. The individual mandate is the last hope for having Obamacare overturned in court, and Romney claims it’s conservative! And yeah, not just at the state level.

    Anyway, one reason that Romney can’t make any headway in the polls is that his entire ideology shows no respect for Tea Party concerns, and thus his defenders naturally seem to actually be sneering at us.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Dustin (cb3719)

  373. Talk about spreadin’ it “more deeply”…let’s face it… life is cheap in Minnesota. A state full of snappin’ muskies and squareheads.

    Scrooged (8699c3)

  374. daleyrocks:

    gary – How about, now that DRJ points it out, Texas has a heckuva lot of socialized medicine through its county hospital system which taxpayers subsidize. Why require a mandate if you already providing free care directly through the state?

    I know you think you’re proving your point with my words, but I think you’re proving my point. Why, indeed, should we impose a mandate when a less intrusive and less expensive method works? (It also lets each county find solutions that work best for them.)

    There are approximately 5,900 hospitals in the U.S. and almost 4,700 of them accept Medicare/Medicaid patients, so the federal law that requires Medicare/Medicaid hospitals provide free treatment for emergency patients is a big issue. In addition, rural hospitals have more Medicare/Medicaid patients and are compensated less than urban hospitals. Texas has many rural county hospitals and many Texas counties wouldn’t have a hospital without local government funding. Some counties are lucky to have more than one doctor. My guess is Massachusetts has more urban and/or private hospitals. So the problems these states face are very different. I don’t have a problem with RomneyCare as the solution Massachusetts’ citizens wanted, but I have a big problem with it as a solution for Texas and the nation.

    Finally, you and Mitt Romney clearly agree RomneyCare introduced a measure of personal responsibility into Massachusetts’ health care system, but that laudable goal doesn’t make RomneyCare and its individual mandate worth the price to me. You may be willing to take the plunge but it’s a bridge too far for me, not only because it infringes on our liberty but it very well may not work.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  375. Gary,

    I don’t know about all of Minnesota’s health care, but the Mayo Clinic is superb and very economical. I think one reason is Mayo doesn’t take Medicare or Medicaid patients, so it can better control its costs.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  376. The more I think about it, the gladder I am that this primary is so volatile and in particular about Romneycare.

    Wouldn’t say that if I thought Romney was going to win, though.

    These are good questions. Is Romneycare conservatism, as Romney says? Is that all conservatism is anymore? Control of economic decisions to force ‘responsibility’ on folks? No hint of concern for actual performance? Every problem is an invitation for a politician to solve it?

    Does the hard left’s single payer actually have some magic power that redefines conservatism?

    As ugly as the debate has been, we probably need to settle it.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  377. This is why Romneybots alienate people they are narcissistic psychos.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  378. Texas Governor Rick Perry – “fiscal conservative” – has more than doubled Texas’s debt in 10 years, and has jacked a $27,000,000,000 budget deficit shortfall for 2012-13.

    Brave Sir Rick!

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  379. link?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  380. When democraps say compromise they mean agree with us or else.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  381. Rick Perry’s policies have increased the debt in Texas!

    No I can’t actually name any Perry initiatives that did that!

    Rick Perry is the devil!

    /Romney Hacks

    Dustin (cb3719)

  382. How many threads do you guys plan on polluting?

    Patterico's Audience (318f81)

  383. Colonel Haiku is right that in 2011, the Texas FY2012-2013 budget was forecast to be $15-$27B deficit. The good news is the Legislature balanced the budget through significant spending cuts, but the bad news is it also used some gimmicks like postponing Medicaid funding and an accounting shift in education funding. Fortunately the recession is over (for now) in Texas and revenues are up:

    In December 2011, Comptroller Susan Combs wrote a letter to lawmakers stating that tax collections were on pace to produce a $1.6 billion budget surplus for the fiscal biennium ending in 2013. The state’s Rainy Day Fund at the end of 2013 is forecast to reach $7.3 billion [up from $5 billion], the comptroller said.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  384. As for Haiku’s claim that Texas’ debt has more than doubled in the decade that Perry has been Governor, that’s also true:

    Perry took office Dec. 21, 2000 — nearly five months into fiscal year 2001. At the end of that year, Texas had $13.7 billion in outstanding bonds and notes. Adjusting for inflation, that would have equaled $16.6 billion in 2009.

    But there’s a subset of state debt that hasn’t surged, Perry’s campaign pointed out — currently $3.07 billion to support parks and for construction of state facilities, among other activities. That debt has decreased by about 6 percent since 2001.

    Then there’s debt to be repaid with program revenue. For example, interest on student loans is used to repay the bond that funded it without the state having to commit general revenue. That “self-supporting” debt has increased by 173 percent since 2001.

    Regardless, Dale Craymer, president of the Texas Taxpayers and Research Association, noted that lots of things have probably doubled since Perry became governor. After all, he’s held the office for nearly a decade.

    Eva DeLuna Castro, a senior budget analyst at the Center for Public Policy Priorities, also said it’d be a stretch to say Perry was solely responsible for all those debt decisions.

    “Voters do that, and the Legislature,” she said. “So we’re all responsible.”

    Perry is one of four members on the Bond Review Board, which ultimately approves most state debt transactions. And over the years, we found, he was a leading advocate for expanding state debts to pay for transportation projects and to combat cancer.

    It turns out that transportation is responsible for most of the added debt load under Perry, increasing from basically nothing in 2000 to $11.8 billion outstanding as of Aug. 31 2009. That’s because before 2001, the Texas Department of Transportation lacked the authority to borrow money to pay for road projects. Voters gave it that power in 2001 when they approved a constitutional amendment that Perry supported.

    Addressing transportation in his 2001 state of the state speech, Perry said, “I would like for both chambers to pass a bonding program to jump-start construction across our state.”

    In 2007, voters also passed a constitutional amendment to create and fund the Cancer Prevention and Research Institute of Texas with $3 billion in bonds over 10 years, starting in January 2010. Perry had championed the cause with cyclist and cancer survivor Lance Armstrong and others.

    PS to Colonel Haiku: You really should click on the ThinkProgress links before you repeat their talking points.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  385. No proof just Romneybots projecting like citgo’s Joe Kennedy.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  386. Governor Rick Perry made a solemn vow to end “sanctuary cities”, but for 10 long years has said “Hell no!” to the key state laws that would have ended his sanctuary state overrunning and burdening America on the backs of taxpayers.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  387. “As for Haiku’s claim that Texas’ debt has more than doubled in the decade that Perry has been Governor, that’s also true:”

    Not really.

    Texas debt has increased from 14% of GDP in 2000 to 20% of GDP in 2009 (the most recent
    year for which there is hard data available).

    I don’t like that at all, but Texas’ debt hasn’t really doubled.

    You can’t look at debt or spending in terms of raw dollars…it just doesn’t work when you’re making comparisons across time.

    Looking at raw dollars doesn’t reflect inflation and it doesn’t reflect changes in the size of the economy, and it doesn’t give you an accurate picture of what you’re situation is.

    Example: If I make $1,000,000 a year and I owe $100…that means zippo I can pay that off out of my chump change fund anytime the urge hits me. But, if I make $1 a year and I owe $100…I’m in big, big trouble.

    You cannot look at debt in terms raw dollars…it means nothing.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  388. I mean “your situation”, not “you’re situation”.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  389. And yes homeschooling doesn’t always lead to positive results.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  390. Sorry for the off-topic.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  391. “You cannot look at debt in terms raw dollars…it means nothing.”

    Dave Surls – Bullsquat. Lenders expect to get repaid in raw dollars not beads. The interest rates they charge to lend the money in the first place was intended to compensate them for anticipated inflation and credit risk over the life of the loans.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  392. But you can look at Romney and swoon over his good looks.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  393. three hundred nine eight
    then three hundred ninety nine
    and then four hundred

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  394. “You may be willing to take the plunge but it’s a bridge too far for me, not only because it infringes on our liberty but it very well may not work.”

    DRJ – I understand and can explain what Romney did in Massachusetts. That doesn’t mean I support it or agree it as a solution for other states as you point out.

    When people criticize Romneycare without understanding the mechanics or the context in which it was passed or claim it is the same as Obamacare because they both have a mandate, those commenters are not worth engaging on the subject. You are not the target my aggressive comments on the subject.

    Many states own hospitals as part of their university systems. As the link I provided earlier showed, prior to the passage of Medicare, construction funds and not-for-profit status were more often the critical factors in determining whether to provide indigent care. The fact the Texas has a sizable state-owned hospital system which requires taxpayer funding rather than standing on its own feet tells me that criticisms of what Massachusetts has done are coming from a weak position.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  395. “As ugly as the debate has been, we probably need to settle it.”

    Shorter Dustin – Leave Texas and Rick Perry alone.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  396. He’s not a bad person, he just loves his naughty Rick Perry.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  397. 374.Don’t let the Running of the Pomeranians of Bemidji, Minn…
    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    If there are any Pomeranians in Bemidji this time of year, they are probably tunneling, not running…
    unless, of course, they are on skates on a frozen pond, but that’s not running, either.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  398. Shorter Dustin – Leave Texas and Rick Perry alone.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/23/2011 @ 3:21 pm

    That is basically the exact opposite of what I said, Daleyrocks.

    I think the GOP has swerved hard left to the point where some people actually think Romney is a plausible Republican, and it’s time to have a serious debate about Romney.

    I said nothing about Perry or leaving him alone. Why do Romney fans have such a poor grasp on reality?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  399. Don’t sell the little, ankle-biting fellas short, MD. They are known to dress warmly in Stones ’72 Tour memorabilia and then run the streets at will.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  400. Governor Rick Perry made a solemn vow to end “sanctuary cities”, but for 10 long years has said “Hell no!” to the key state laws that would have ended his sanctuary state overrunning and burdening America on the backs of taxpayers.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/23/2011 @ 2:33 pm

    Mitt Romney did nothing about it.

    Perry used emergency powers, but has been unable to win on this issue because he doesn’t set the legislative agenda or control their votes.

    Immigration is a weaker issue for Perry, but he’s strong on border control. Remember when you used to link that site, saying Perry was weak on border control, and anyone clicking noticed it gave him an A+?

    That’s the most important aspect. Get the border secure. Perry will probably do a decent job on this count, but will also show compassionate conservative tendencies, which is a valid thing to criticize.

    Of course, it’s a little hard to understand a Romney fan complaining, since Romney gave free health care to illegals and even admitted to having them work on his lawn.

    But that’s OK. I like the notion of keeping the real conservatives like Perry honest with this kind of scrutiny. It is a serious problem that Texas has sanctuary cities and even though you appeared to bring this up just to change the subject (And it appears Daleyrocks also just blurted out PERRY! when I noted the value in a debate of Romneycare and socialist policies being called conservative) that’s OK.

    We can have both a discussion of immigration and a discussion of Romneycare. Perry is better than Romney on both, but that is faint praise and not nearly good enough for me.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  401. daleyrocks,

    I’ve avoided saying this all day but I won’t hold back since you persist in criticizing people for not understanding RomneyCare while simultaneously pointing to Texas “sizable state-owned hospital system.” Texas doesn’t have a “state-owned hospital system” other than state-owned prison, mental health, and similar hospitals.

    In many Texas counties, hospitals are owned by counties or hospital districts that are typically funded by local property taxes. I know you understand this distinction because you discussed it in comment 276, but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the line. It matters because, at least to most conservatives, local control is generally preferred to more centralized control — which means local county control is often better than state control, and state control is often better than federal control.

    But I am curious why you and Colonel Haiku seem so hostile to Texas and Perry since I don’t think Perry is a threat to Romney anymore. Maybe you think Perry is still a threat, but at this point it seems to me that you’re primarily turning off support for Romney and it doesn’t serve him well.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  402. It’s amusing to read complaints of misinterpretation
    of what one had said by a main practitioner of said misinterpretation.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  403. Haiku, the fact is, for all your elitist sneering, you three Romney defenders have never impressed me as consistent or even coherent.

    The day you express a maxim I can apply across the candidates that shows why Romney is the right conservative candidate will be a mark a major improvement.

    As it stands, you’re defending Romney for things that are similar only drastically more egregious than the things you are flipping out if Perry did.

    No sweat. As DRJ notes, Perry probably isn’t much of a threat at this point, though I’ll hold out hope that he can impress after the first few contests.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  404. Is your last comment directed at me, Colonel Haiku?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  405. Dustin, for Perry, the bloom has fallen off the rose… or, in your case, the brown nose has fallen from the sycophant.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  406. But all of that aside, here’s wishing you and yours a very, Merry Christmas.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  407. Haiku, I’m not a sycophant for Perry. I’ve happily criticized him many times. Only I also criticize Romney, and since I have a conservative point of view, I naturally disagree with Romney, a self described “progressive” a lot more than I do Perry, who is a good governor.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  408. 381. ” the Mayo Clinic is superb ”

    And WI has a top flight clinic a couple, three hours east of MPLS/STP at Marshfield. MN hospitals are often specialized, but all the good trauma centers are in the Cities. Teaching hospitals are poorly administered.

    German Catholics are the largest ethnic population so excellent Catholic hospitals in ‘rural’ areas exist but OB/GYN is their prime proficiency.

    Plenty of HMOs, United Health big in other states. IA, MN and WI have the most educated populations in the country and some synergies in Health Sciences.

    While cost of living far higher than NE or SD infrastructure better so business supporting healthcare far more developed.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  409. a/o end of September, 2011, Perry had a 45% approval rating against a 48% disapproval rating with Texas voters.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  410. Colonel Haiku,

    To whom was your comment 409 directed?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  411. For Dustin, DRJ, and for him, only.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  412. Thank you for responding.

    Here’s an interesting USA Today online test to see which GOP candidate(s)’ policies mesh best with our individual policy preferences. I was surprised by my results. Maybe you will be, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  413. That was interesting. Romney, Gingrich and Huntsman, in that order.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  414. DRJ, took that test, and no real surprise:
    1- Perry;
    2- Bachmann;
    3- Gingrich.

    AD-RtR/OS! (5dcba8)

  415. DRJ’s test says I support Bachmann, then Perry, then Newt.

    Seems legit. My reasons for not supporting Bachmann are not ideological.

    Not a deranged Mitt Fanboy (cb3719)

  416. ^ oops

    Dustin (cb3719)

  417. DRJ, Dustin

    I think Perry will be on the ballot from what i’m hearing there is some controversy about some pages duplicated so they threw out several hundred votes that were valid. If they add Gingrich they will have to add Perry.

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  418. Perry also in the last year was one of the biggest fundraiser for the VA state party. I find this hard treatment of him not surprizing though – alot of people are still freaked out about social security and what he will do to it.

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  419. It’s Bachmann, then Perry separated only slightly, then Newt, then Ron Paul (hahaha), then Santorum, then Obama (?) then Huntsman, then Romney is dead last.

    Interesting.

    Nice to know my opposition to Romney is justified by USA Today’s no-doubt completely scientific methodology.

    I think Perry will be on the ballot from what i’m hearing there is some controversy about some pages duplicated so they threw out several hundred votes that were valid. If they add Gingrich they will have to add Perry.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/23/2011 @ 6:07 pm | (Ignore this user)

    Interesting. I hear that verifying the signatures is not normal. Someone just announced that Romney was above some threshold where they won’t verify, but Perry wasn’t, then they ruled thousands of Perry signatures invalid.

    I don’t think this is how it should work.

    Frankly, I don’t think Perry’s support of the VA GOP should give him any advantages here either, but it looks like his campaign did try to abide by the VA rules not realizing the goalposts were at 15k instead of 10k as the law ‘suggested’.

    I don’t know. I have a dim view of politics these days and would love to support a political party that was serious about what actually matters.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  420. Dustin

    I dont mind they bumped Perry from the ballot – given the controversy about Acorn and Obama in Indiana – I have no problem that people enforce the rules – Also no one has voted yet – things can change and if Perry is off the ballot by one vote then thats the rule. ther are alot of states out there and Perry’s team will fight just harder.

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  421. Comment by MD in Philly — 12/22/2011 @ 8:58 pm

    Just to be clear–I think it’s unethical for them not to have told her that her doctor had left. But I don’t think it’s unethical if they had told her he had left, but did not say where he went to.

    DRJ–took the test, and the results were Romney, Huntsman, Gingrich. However, I went back and played with the results, and got Romney, Obama, Huntsman. Which perhaps should be viewed in the light of what Dustin said in comment 382.

    JBS (46fd97)

  422. I have no problem that people enforce the rules

    I suppose. Seems like the kind of rule where they should just let people go back and get the signatures, rather than force no one to be able to support who they want.

    In other words, they should enforce the rules, but the rules shouldn’t be stupid. The purpose of these rules is not clear to me.

    I’d say the same if it were Perry alone left on the ballot.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  423. Well they rules are that you need 400 signatures from each district if you turn in 30,000 but you have 399 from one district – you dont mak the ballot.

    Some states do this – I was always told to keep the presidential primary from becoming a circus – something the media has down very well with.

    I think when people go in the voting booth, Perry is a standing governor and the rest have very eak resumes – look the people chose Obama so anything goes – it will just mean that Texas will get stronger, other blue states weaker

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  424. sorry about the “they”

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  425. if you turn in 30,000 but you have 399 from one district – you dont mak the ballot.

    What is the purpose of such a law?

    What if one district hates a candidate most of the rest of the state loves? Why in the world is that a good reason to keep them off the ballot?

    I doubt there is a reasonable answer to this. Ron Koo Koo Paul is on the ballot, so it’s not a filter (not that I think Ron Paul shouldn’t be on this ballot).

    This law should be struck down as a violation of our fundamental rights. Those who support this law, or cheer this outcome should be ashamed.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  426. “Dave Surls – Bullsquat.”

    No, it isn’t bullsquat.

    In 1946, the federal debt stood at $129 billion, now it’s $15,080 billion…but, we were more in debt then, than we are now.

    Looking at raw dollars doesn’t tell you much.

    Looking at debt (or spending, or whatever) as a percentage of GDP, is a lot better way of looking at it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  427. “Here’s an interesting USA Today online test to see which GOP candidate(s)’ policies mesh best with our individual policy preferences.”

    Well, I’m most like Ron Paul and Michelle Bachmann…but, I already knew that.

    Unfortunately for them, I don’t support crazy people for political office, even if they do share some of my political ideas.

    Sometimes not being a psycho is more important than ideology.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  428. Looking at debt (or spending, or whatever) as a percentage of GDP, is a lot better way of looking at it.

    Comment by Dave Surls — 12/23/2011 @ 8:12 pm | (Ignore this user)

    Agreed.

    And they play games with inflation. There are parts they don’t calculate in, and frankly, what really matters is how we’re going to be able to repay.

    Debt : GDP is the best metric. And it’s never been this bad.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  429. you three Romney defenders have never impressed me as consistent or even coherent.
    — Don’t know about the other two, but, since I do not consider myself a ‘Romney defender’ I take that statement to be a compliment.

    Icy (56de68)

  430. I didn’t know gorebull warming causes polar bear populations to rise?

    And I like HOW I’am a thug because I’am a republican but yet Democraps have no problem threatening people.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  431. Took the USA Today online test. Results (Dustin, stand by with a “SHOCKA!”)are:
    Romney
    Obama
    Bachmann
    [Huntsman was fourth]

    Icy (d0c253)

  432. Flipper the dolphin took the test, and his matches were:

    Romney
    Romney
    Romney
    Romney
    Romney

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  433. “you three Romney defenders have never impressed me as consistent or even coherent.

    – Brave Sir Goodman Faith

    Colonel Haiku (8639f8)

  434. One of the Perry defenders is annoying enough almost to make me vote for Huntsman, although
    Mitten’s men can be equally annoying, as I’ve seen
    on Rhinosphere.

    narciso (87e966)

  435. eyes on the prize: the Banishment of ‘bama!

    Colonel Haiku (8639f8)

  436. In other words, they should enforce the rules, but the rules shouldn’t be stupid. The purpose of these rules is not clear to me.

    In the fullness of time, it will become clear that these rules were made to thin the herd… to weed out the steers from the bulls… to cull the inept from the competent… to separate the geldings from the stallions… to pull the math-challenged from the field and send them packing for Texas.

    Colonel Haiku (8639f8)

  437. You really think this is about, it’s about the reverse, would Reagan have spent 15 debates moderated in large part by the enemy,

    narciso (87e966)

  438. There you go again!

    Colonel Haiku (8639f8)

  439. Romneybots need go to into the middle of the nearest 4-way intersection and try to convert the unwashed masses.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  440. The networks back in the day, would be going through any discrepancies when he was head of the SAG, transactions regarding his ranch, dwelling on
    his vote on abortion, rather than allowing for the
    attacks on Carter’s atrocious economic and foreign policy, this is the trap we have walked right into,

    narciso (87e966)

  441. can’t say that I disagree w/that, Narciso.

    biden… I hope Santa brings you the biggest, gnarliest pickle you’ve ever sat on this year!

    Colonel Haiku (8639f8)


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