Patterico's Pontifications

12/12/2011

PolitiFact’s Romneycare Bias

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 9:00 am

[Posted by Karl]

PolitiFact opines that it is “mostly false” that Mitt Romney called his Massachusetts health care law “the model for the country.”  They have dinged Rick Perry twice for making the claim, and Rick Santorum once.  Most of the debate concerns an excerpt from Romney’s book, No Apologies, which was altered between the hardback and paperback editions:

My own preference would be to let each state fashion its own program to meet the distinct needs of its citizens. States could follow the Massachusetts model of they choose, or they could develop plans of their own. These plans, tested in the state ‘laboratories of democracy’ could be evaluated, compared, improved upon, and adopted by others. But the creation of a national plan is the direction in which Washington is currently moving. If a national approach is ultimately adopted, we should permit individuals to purchase insurance from companies in other states in order to expand choice and competition.

What we accomplished surprised us: 440,000 people who previously had no health insurance became insured, many paying their own way. We made it possible for each newly insured person to have better care, and ultimately healthier and longer lives. From now on, no one in Massachusetts has to worry about losing his or her health insurance if there is a job change or a loss in income; everyone is insured and pays only what he or she can afford. It’s portable, affordable health insurance — something people have been talking about for decades. We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country, and it can be done without letting government take over health care. (Emphasis added.)

The highlighted phrase was scrubbed from the paperback.  PolitiFact opines:

Romney’s not really saying the Massachusetts law “should be the model for the country,” the way that Perry describes it. He’s in fact presenting a defense of state-level choice. It’s like a shout-out to other state leaders: Hey, you can have what Massachusetts has!

Shouting “you can have Romneycare” is not advocating it as a model for the country?  That’s an awfully weak apologia, particularly if you know that when Romneycare became law, Mitt wrote: “How much of our health-care plan applies to other states? A lot.”  It’s weaker still when you read what Mitt said in 2007 — and his explanation of it in 2010:

Back in February 2007, you said you hoped the Massachusetts plan would “become a model for the nation.” Would you agree that it has?
I don’t … You’re going to have to get that quote. That’s not exactly accurate, I don’t believe.

I can tell you exactly what it says: “I’m proud of what we’ve done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be a model for the nation.”
It is a model for the states to be able to learn from. During the campaign, I was asked if I was proposing that what I did in Massachusetts I would do for the nation. And the answer was absolutely not. Our plan is a state plan. It is a model for other states—if you will, the nation—it is a model for them to look at what we’ve accomplished and to better it or to create their own plans.

Note that even Romney’s attempted explanation at one point equates “other states” with the nation — which is what PolitiFact finds so objectionable coming from Perry and Santorum.  And the criticism from Perry and Santorum comes in part because because Romney once claimed that “a lot” of Romneycare applied to other states, but now says:

Our approach was a state plan intended to address problems that were in many ways unique to Massachusetts.

The point here is not to condemn Romney’s tapdancing, but PolitiFact’s claim that said tapdancing is “truth” while ignoring the overall political context.  The attempt to reduce debatable political questions to unquestionable articles of “truth” — typically to manufacture consent to center-left government — is endemic to the establishment media’s so-called fact-checking propaganda operations.  But PolitiFact is particularly egregious, as Mark Hemingway notes:

You can believe that Republicans lie more than three times as often as Democrats. Or you can believe that, at a minimum, PolitiFact is engaging in a great deal of selection bias, to say nothing of pushing tendentious arguments of its own.

The obvious selection bias here is that PolitiFact does not even consider Romney’s shifting claims about the broader applicability of Romneycare to be worthy of question.  But the selection bias on this topic runs deeper.

For example, Romney has repeatedly denied that Romneycare is similar to Obamacare.  Most everyone else — including PolitiFact — has concluded the two are mostly similar.  But if you peruse PolitiFact’s Mitt Romney file, you will find that so far, they have never dinged Romney himself for claiming the opposite.

Given that in previous years, PolitiFact has awarded its “Lie of the Year” to statements attacking Obamacare (one of which I have dissected before), a cynic might be forgiven for thinking that PolitiFact prefers defending ever-increasing government control of the healthcare system — whether that control is exercised by the state or the feds — over its supposed mission of fact-checking.

–Karl

203 Responses to “PolitiFact’s Romneycare Bias”

  1. “My own preference would be to let each state fashion its own program to meet the distinct needs of its citizens. States could follow the Massachusetts model of they choose, or they could develop plans of their own.”

    There’s enough ambiguity here to save him, in my opinion. Plus the word “model” can mean something to be imitated as well as, more benignly, something to be compared against.

    “For example, Romney has repeatedly denied that Romneycare is similar to Obamacare. ”

    This is a bigger issue for him. The PPACA is very much the same mold as the Romney/Heritage/GOP plan from the 90s. He can’t escape that pedigree.

    salk (746e5c)

  2. If you ignore the fact that ObamaCare violates the provisions of the McCarran-Ferguson Act, while Romneycare does not, I would start listing the similarities from that point forward.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. Another “fact” check that doesn’t check its own “facts”.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (aefea8)

  4. No conservative can oppose ObamaCare because Romney, and someone once offered a plan decades and decades ago.

    JD (a55faf)

  5. Wall Street Romney has a lot of disrespect for the idea of individual liberty especially for people not rich like him.

    Mostly true.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  6. Romney has good hair at least.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  7. I’am against Gay Marriage but I don’t hate gays.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  8. Given that in previous years, PolitiFact has awarded its “Lie of the Year” to statements attacking Obamacare (one of which I have dissected before), a cynic might be forgiven for thinking that PolitiFact prefers defending ever-increasing government control of the healthcare system — whether that control is exercised by the state or the feds — over its supposed mission of fact-checking.

    The media reads all of Romney’s statement-and they end up feeling sympathetic towards him-he’s one of us!

    And it’ surprising that Romney wants to clings to Romney Care-he’s stated that if defending RomneyCare costs him the primary than so be it-problem is-what has RomneyCare cost Massachusetts?

    How many jobs, how much debt has Massachusetts incurred?

    The costs of reform have been higher than expected.
    Because of the successful enrollment into the Commonwealth Care program, the costs for this program have exceeded previous estimates. The Governor’s budget request of $869 million for 2009 is about $400 million more than that for 2008, and it is believed that this funding level may still fall short. State officials remain committed to the reform effort and are considering various options for raising additional revenue, including increasing the tobacco tax. There have also been calls for a greater commitment to the concept of shared responsibility on the part of providers, health insurers and employers, though no changes to the current financing structure have been made. Additionally, legislation aimed at constraining health care cost growth overall is being debated by the legislature.
    Another factor complicating the financing picture is that the state’s Medicaid 1115 waiver expires this year. This waiver, which created the Safety Net Care Pool, is the primary source of funding for the subsidies provided through the Commonwealth Care program. While it is expected that the waiver will be renewed, any changes to the level of federal funding and how that funding can be used will affect the future financing of the program.

    (Source:http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7777.pdf)

    What’s interesting is when the kff pdf discusses -the federal funding- consider this part of Romney’s statement in the paperback-

    everyone is insured and pays only what he or she can afford.

    Isn’t the federal taxpayer-in a sense paying for Romney’s health care experiment?

    madawaskan (89a442)

  9. And here’s a blurb about Massachusetts’s debt:

    Existing Debt Burden
    Since the Patrick-Murray Administration instituted rigorous debt affordability policies, the Commonwealth’s rankings in terms of debt burden have been improved by several measures from what the Administration inherited. Nevertheless, the Commonwealth’s debt burden remains among the highest in the nation by certain measures. Moody’s Investors Service ranks Massachusetts fourth in total net tax-supported debt, fourth in total gross tax-supported debt (down from third in 2007), second in net tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income, and second in net tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007).[10] Standard and Poor’s Massachusetts rankings are similar: second in tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007), third in tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income (down from second in 2007), and fourth in total tax-supported debt.[11]

    It is important to note, however, that these measures include certain debt issued by entities other than the Commonwealth for which the Commonwealth is not liable (e.g., $4.45 billion of debt issued by the Massachusetts School Building Authority). In addition, these measures favor other states that have stronger county governments and other political subdivisions that issue debt to finance capital improvements that are financed by state government in Massachusetts. In fact, in the most recent U.S. Census Bureau report on the matter, Massachusetts ranked 49th out of the 50 states in terms of local debt as a percent of total debt (local and state debt)[12], indicating that relative to other states, many of the capital needs of the entire state are borne by the Commonwealth itself. Based on this statistic, it is safe to assume that Massachusetts would likely rank lower when measuring debt as a percentage of personal income or per capita if both state and local debt were taken into account.
    mass.gov

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    madawaskan (89a442)

  10. “Isn’t the federal taxpayer-in a sense paying for Romney’s health care experiment?”

    madawaskan – The federal funding is coming largely under Medicaid and Medicare. Massachusetts had negotiated some kind of extended Medicaid waiver years before Romney which has continued in place. If rules are complied with, is Massachusetts telling its residents to take advantage of Federal aid a real issue?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  11. If any particular state wants to use Massachusetts as a model, that’s one thing. For the federal government to impose it on EVERY state is something entirely different. I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept for some people to understand.

    Sparks (35db75)

  12. daleyrocks-

    Well I tried to post a comment in here about the state debt of Massachusetts-but it must be stuck in spam.

    The bigger issue may be Romney’s refusal to admit that RomneyCare is not working out so well.

    The state ranks high in the debt department-

    I’m going to try to post it without the hyperlink:

    Existing Debt Burden
    Since the Patrick-Murray Administration instituted rigorous debt affordability policies, the Commonwealth’s rankings in terms of debt burden have been improved by several measures from what the Administration inherited. Nevertheless, the Commonwealth’s debt burden remains among the highest in the nation by certain measures. Moody’s Investors Service ranks Massachusetts fourth in total net tax-supported debt, fourth in total gross tax-supported debt (down from third in 2007), second in net tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income, and second in net tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007).[10] Standard and Poor’s Massachusetts rankings are similar: second in tax-supported debt per capita (down from first in 2007), third in tax-supported debt as a percentage of personal income (down from second in 2007), and fourth in total tax-supported debt.[11]

    (source:mass.gov)

    madawaskan (89a442)

  13. Sparks-

    You may have to ask Romney why he omitted what he chose to omit from the paperback-it was Romney’s choice….

    madawaskan (89a442)

  14. There’s also this from CATO:

    The Massachusetts plan might not have achieved universal coverage, but it has cost taxpayers a great deal of money. Originally, the plan was projected to cost $1.8 billion this year. Now it is expected to exceed those estimates by $150 million. Over the next 10 years, projections suggest that Romney- Care will cost about $2 billion more than was budgeted. And the cost to Massachusetts taxpayers could be even higher because new federal rules could deprive the state of $100 million per year in Medicaid money that the state planned to use to help finance the program.

    Given that the state is already facing a projected budget deficit this year, the pressure to raise taxes, cut reimbursements to health care providers, or cap insurance premiums will likely be intense. Romney likes to brag that he accomplished his health care plan “without raising taxes.” Unless something turns around, that is not likely to be the case much longer.

    madawaskan (89a442)

  15. “The bigger issue may be Romney’s refusal to admit that RomneyCare is not working out so well.”

    madawaskan – In looking at quotes from 2007 and 2008 I think you have to keep in mind that not all sections of the law had been implemented yet. There were strong indicators costs were going up, but health care costs were going up all over the country. At that point, Romney probably still had hopes for success rather than watching Deval Patrick and his gang mess it up and not follow through with the implementation and market reforms envisioned by the reform. There is plenty written on that for anybody who wants to read rather than just hyperventilating about the mandate.

    Remember the legislative environment when Romneycare was introduced, there was a ballot initiative in the state which had gathered enough signatures to get on the ballot requiring mandatory health insurance coverage with a public option. The legislature had promised its own bill by the end of the session. Romney was forced to offer a bill which was later significantly altered by the legislature. He signed it while vetoing eight sections, which vetoes were subsequently overridden.

    Faulting him now for having hopes that it would work shortly after it passed and that if it did other states might take a look at it as a solution I think is the ultimate in hindsight hero cheapshots.

    He hasn’t run away from it. On the debt, look at the trend, not the absolute level.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  16. “Given that the state is already facing a projected budget deficit this year, the pressure to raise taxes, cut reimbursements to health care providers, or cap insurance premiums will likely be intense. Romney likes to brag that he accomplished his health care plan “without raising taxes.” Unless something turns around, that is not likely to be the case much longer.”

    madawaskan – Pro-tip – Romney hasn’t been Governor for six years. Holding him responsible for the state’s fiscal condition when he has no control over it is a little pretzel logicish.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. This just indicates that the “wretched scribes” of the press are so under-compensated that they can’t access hard-bound editions
    and must suffice with (probably) hand-me-down soft-cover editions.

    We must bring social-justice to journalism!

    AD-RtR/OS! (5bf382)

  18. At that point, Romney probably still had hopes for success rather than watching Deval Patrick and his gang mess it up and not follow through with the implementation and market reforms envisioned by the reform. There is plenty written on that for anybody who wants to read rather than just hyperventilating about the mandate.

    Romney should have envisioned a Democrat governor-in of all places-massachusetts-that wasn’t too hard to foresee was it?

    madawaskan (89a442)

  19. daleyrocks,

    If I went around claiming Romneycare > Obamacare because Romneycare didn’t raise taxes, the fact that the state ultimately had to raise taxes to finance it might be relevant.

    And I don’t say that just to bash Romney. Since Reagan, the GOP has operated on the “starve the beast” theory, and there’s increasing debate over the fficacy of that strategy, insofar as borrow-and-spend ultimately requires repayment.

    Karl (f07e38)

  20. “If I went around claiming Romneycare > Obamacare because Romneycare didn’t raise taxes, the fact that the state ultimately had to raise taxes to finance it might be relevant.”

    Karl – Like when somebody has their left turn signal on for ten miles and you wonder why? Eventually they make a left turn.

    To me these hindsight arguments are much like Obama blaming Bush tax cuts for the current deficits, they ignore everything which has occurred in the intervening years. They ignore the damage the increased spending of Deval Patrick and his cronies have done to the fiscal condition of Massachusetts, but more importantly, they ignore opportunities Patrick and the legislature had to increase the costs of health care reform or mitigate the costs in Massachusetts. Neverthelss, Romney is supposedly responsible for the actions or inactions of subsequent administrations even though he is not in power.

    Pretzel logic.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  21. madawaskan – Pro-tip – Romney hasn’t been Governor for six years. Holding him responsible for the state’s fiscal condition when he has no control over it is a little pretzel logicish.

    Romney signed into law Romneycare, even though it was very predictable that it wouldn’t affordable. A huge entitlement, forcing people to pay according to their means and receive according to their ability is not the kind of leadership I personally agree with.

    As I’ve noted before, when Romney signed Romneycare into law, one of the first people he thanked was Ted Kennedy because Ted got funding for Romneycare from the federal government.

    I think Romney knew that Romneycare wasn’t sustainable. I don’t even know if it’s a defense for Romneycare if he didn’t know this. I mean… he should have known. How many times have to pointed out that the democrats in MA ran wild with many policy issues. When I blamed Romney for increasing the gun tax to $100, you corrected me noting Romney only wanted to increase it to $75, and the democrats took it to the next level.

    At what point was Romney supposed to figure out that everything he did would become a bit more expensive than officially planned? Especially Romneycare, which has lost tens of billions of dollars?

    This is why I oppose Romney. It is politically expedient to compromise with the hard left, but the only way to do it is to give them most of a program that winds up being some kind of tax or spend (or both) boondoogle. This is a neat characterization of at least three of Mitt’s four years.

    And it’s not even good politics. When Mitt played the ‘I’m not Reagan!’ game and proved it by using government for every problem, the left always out did him. out of 100 candidates Mitt supported in the MA legislature, zero won. He ended his term unpopular with no credibility and a slew of policies like Romneycare sitting there as his legacy.

    And sadly, in 2009, I didn’t see Mitt Romney out there loudly denouncing Obamacare when it was in controversy. In fact, sometimes, Romney would note the similarities between Obamacare and Romneycare. But Perry was indeed loud and proud at Tea Party rallies noting how intrusive and unacceptable he found the mandate.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  22. Pro-tip – Romney hasn’t been Governor for six years. Holding him responsible for the state’s fiscal condition when he has no control over it is a little pretzel logicish.

    Then FDR isnt responsible for Social Security and income tax withholding

    LBJ didnt cause the great society

    Reagan didnt grant amnesty

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  23. “Romney should have envisioned a Democrat governor-in of all places-massachusetts-that wasn’t too hard to foresee was it?”

    madawaskan – I love this argument. I hindsight, Romney should have had the foresight to:

    a)Do nothing because subsequent administrations would screw it up
    b)Do nothing because Democrats were going to ram through their own ballot initiative or legislative solution that he could not veto anyway
    c)Attempt his own legislative solution that had elements of market based reforms and hope for the best

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  24. Obama just asked Iran for its top secret drone back

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  25. One way Romney got a pass on Romneycare and his spending was that on paper, everything was going to save a bunch of money.

    It turned out there was a shortfall over more than a billion beyond what Romney’s administration claimed there would be in their guesses.

    This is also clearly the problem with Obamacare.

    When President Gingrich sees Obamacare become horribly expensive just after 2013, is that not Obama’s fault?

    Entitlements are expensive, no matter how you try to paper them over. They might work on paper one way, if you make ad hoc calculations to prove they will work, but in practice, when demand shoots up like that, it becomes horribly expensive.

    This is why Mitt Romney deserves blame for Romneycare being expensive. Sure, he may not have specifically envisioned what would happen, but it was very predictable. Do not sign into law new entitlements if you want to be known as a fiscal conservative.

    Romney often has to point to democrats who ultimately beat him, to explain the results of his policies, but democrats beating him was actually another result of his policies.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  26. Romney’s using Ann Coulter in a radio commercial. That’s going to go over well in the general election.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  27. I hindsight, Romney should have had the foresight to:

    a)Do nothing because subsequent administrations would screw it up

    If by ‘no nothing’ you mean do not create hard left government takeovers of economic choices and industries, hell yes this is what Romney should have done.

    This is what Perry is getting hammered for. Doing nothing. Perry didn’t touch so many aspects of our lives, and look! Everything worked out really well.

    Do nothing. That is the essence of the role of government for a conservative, unless there is no alternative.

    By giving the democrats of MA control over health care to this great extent, Romney shifted the debate wildly to the left in that state. He made MA much more liberal. And Romneycare was predictably going to lose billions.

    Madawaskan is 100% correct that as a matter of strategy, Romney should have assumed the democrats would one day have control over these new initiatives. This is politics 101.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  28. The one thing that Perry has been very successful in for TEXAS is the art of doing nothing which transaltes into spending nothing and regulating nothing

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  29. Romney outlined his ambitions for the Massachusetts plan. “I’m proud of what we’ve done,” he said. “If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be a model for the nation.” Last month Romney’s dream came true. (with Obamacare)

    “I think there are a number of features in the Massachusetts plan that could inform Washington on ways to improve health care for all Americans,” Romney told CNN.”

    Romney laments what he didn’t deal with, admitting there wasn’t “even a pretense” of reducing costs:

    We were unable to deal with… health care costs in Massachusetts.

    Why sign into law something that merely controls that everyone get coverage and cannot lose it, with no pretense of cost control, Mitt Romney? That was obviously going to be freaking expensive. Everyone should check that last link out.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  30. “Entitlements are expensive, no matter how you try to paper them over. They might work on paper one way, if you make ad hoc calculations to prove they will work, but in practice, when demand shoots up like that, it becomes horribly expensive.”

    Dustin – That’s why in six years after leaving office, Democrats in Massachusetts have had plenty of time to tweak spending levels on other programs as well as the details of Romneycare if they saw it getting too expensive. It’s a lot easier to do at the state level than the federal level, witness nobody wanting to have a serious conversation about Medicare or Social Security.

    Blaming the inability of a subsequent administration’s to deal with fiscal issues created by its own implementation decisions relating to major legislation and six years of unrelated spending on a prior governor is classic Obama finger pointing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  31. If you believe that law-abiding citizens shouldn’t use guns to defend themselves…………..you probably are wearing Mitt Romney underwear.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  32. “He did it, we just kept spending the money!

    We were too dumb to stop.”

    Not a good political excuse.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  33. “Romney laments what he didn’t deal with, admitting there wasn’t “even a pretense” of reducing costs:”

    Dustin – Reducing costs was phase 2, working with health care providers, something Deval Patrick has completely ignored.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  34. Responding to Romney saying Romneycare and Obamacare are easily distinguished:

    The problem is there is no way to say that,” Gruber told Capital New York. “Because they’re the same f***ing bill. He just can’t have his cake and eat it too. Basically, you know, it’s the same bill. He can try to draw distinctions and stuff, but he’s just lying. The only big difference is he didn’t have to pay for his. Because the federal government paid for it. Where at the federal level, we have to pay for it, so we have to raise taxes.

    That’s what MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber says.

    Who cares what he says? Well, he helped Obama craft Obamacare. After he helped Romney craft Romneycare.

    Gruber notes that Mitt was able to pass the costs of his entitlement spending onto the federal government, but the federal government can’t pass the costs on… they have to pay for it, so the costs are more immediately apparent.

    But that’s all in the past. Here’s the real problem: is Romney going to do it again? Is he going to have more compromises with the left that work on paper if the left ceases to fight forever? Would a President Romney leave behind more of this kind of compromise?

    That is exactly why I don’t support the guy. He’s not going fight to turn government down. He’s going to compromise with the left, splitting the baby, which always leads to the results Romneycare led to. This is how Richard Nixon governed, and always my fear for moderate Republicans.

    This is further informed by the fury Romney showed when Social Security was called a Ponzi Scheme (which it is). You have to ignore Romney’s record and his rhetoric to think he’s a solution to spending.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  35. “The one thing that Perry has been very successful in for TEXAS is the art of doing nothing which transaltes into spending nothing and regulating nothing”

    EPWJ – What has Perry done to reduce the cost of uncompensated care to health care providers in Texas, one of the goals of health care reform in Massachusetts? With the highest uninsured population in the country, it’s problem surely dwarfs that of Massachusetts and costs all Texans money. I have never been able to get an answer from Dustin to this question.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  36. Dustin – Reducing costs was phase 2, working with health care providers, something Deval Patrick has completely ignored.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 10:01 am

    True. You are 100% right.

    Romney’s strategy seems to have failed. I do not see how it was ever going to work. Now, if you want to blame Patrick, that’s cool with me. But Patrick is a liberal democrat… he is like a force of nature in MA. You might as well blame the rain for making your drying clothes wet. Yeah,that’s true, but … don’t leave your drying clothes out in the rain.

    Romney didn’t even run for reelection. He split the baby with the democrats, sending the debate wildly to the left, where the leader of the GOP in MA was actually pro the state controlling economic choices and creating a huge entitlement, with cutting costs left to ‘phase two’ that obviously is never going to come.

    I think this is pretty weak leadership, and Romney deserves blame for just how predictably expensive his $20 billion signature on Romneycare was.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  37. Wait, Romneycare cost a lot more than $20 billion, I believe. Never did get an answer on that. Does anyone know how much Romneycare has cost so far? I know at one point it ‘lost’ $20 billion, but I’m curious just how expensive this policy was.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  38. “Romney’s strategy seems to have failed. I do not see how it was ever going to work.”

    Dustin – I agree that it has not worked the way it was anticipated. Assigning blame is another matter and we can disagree on that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. Mitt Romney made that offer of a $10,000 bet because he felt sure it would not be accepted, and it was as strong an assertion he could make without actually having to explain himself.

    He made it as high as he could to probably not get accepted but just low enough to be plausible.

    Amd he didn’t say how the winner would be determined. Like it would be extremely obvious who was right. That was actually another lie, really, cponveyed very indirectly.

    Rick Perry should have had the presence of mind to accept it. With reservations and questions.

    The first thing he should have said is: Will we do it with campaign money?” Ten Thousand dollars is not too much for campaign money. He really could do that and with all the publicity it would be a worthwhile campaign expenditure. Well, a worthwhile risk, becausd he shouldn’t lose, or if he did Romney would not come out looking good.

    The second thing he should have asked is how would it be decided who won. An offer, or counteroffer, might be: They’ll get an audience of at least 100 people, maybe use a poll to get undecided voters, and if 2/3 of them rule one way or the other that person will win the bet, and if no one gets a two thirds majority the bet is off. He could say we’ll work it out in 24 hours.

    Well, Rick Perry could have said that if he knew enough about campaigns – or anything, and had some ability to think on his feet..

    You need a know how tjsi would be decided. If Mitt Romney can set up a system to decide who is right, he could rig it to win. That might indeed
    have been Mitt Romney’s backup plan, although of course he really was hoping it would be rejected and then he could claim Rick Perry had a chance to prove he was right and he didn’t take it. At least that was the original idea. Now Romeny’s people are saying it was a joke, and Rick Perry and others are saying: $10,000?? Well, Mitt Romney is that rich, an amount like that doesn’t matter to him. Do any of these people in these houses here in Iowa look like they could casually bet $10,000? Does he carry that big a bankroll in his pocket? You were almost expecting him to pull out a roll of 100 $100 bills.

    And the Democrats are saying: That’s a whole year’s worth of mortgage payments.

    All that Rick Perry said was that he’s not a betting man – which is something I think Rick Perry had said before, asnd Mitt Romney knew it.

    He wanted that bet to be rejected. For that very reason, it should have been accepted, or rather, explored..

    I wonder why it is being argued that Mitt Romney would have an easier time winning the election.

    The third thing Rick Perry should have asked was, if Mitt Romney accepted this is: Why do we need to wager $10,000? The important point is to decide who is right. Instead of $10,000 let it be like mayors who wager on who is going to win the World Series. The wager should be food, locally grown fruits or vegetables. Or possibly some speciality.

    Mitt Romney would have had to accept that too.

    I don’t know if people realize, but Rick Perry (or any of the others!) missed a chancve here to really call him on things.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  40. That’s a whole year’s worth of mortgage payments.

    Not in CA!

    AD-RtR/OS! (5bf382)

  41. “Wait, Romneycare cost a lot more than $20 billion, I believe.”

    Dustin – I don’t recall where your $20 billion number came from. Most of the increased funding for Romneycare is coming from Medicaid and Medicare dollars.

    According to your defense of Governor Perry, you should not have a problem with that since it is just Massachusetts residents getting more of their tax dollars back from the government. No big deal.

    I completely disagree with that philosophy, however. Federal tax rates are uniform across the country. I may have missed it, apart from potentially a few exceptions, I am unaware of laws which establish a claim by states on the taxes their residents pay into the U.S. Treasury.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. Comment by Dustin — 12/12/2011 @ 9:45 am

    One way Romney got a pass on Romneycare and his spending was that on paper, everything was going to save a bunch of money.

    It turned out there was a shortfall over more than a billion beyond what Romney’s administration claimed there would be in their guesses.

    This is also clearly the problem with Obamacare.

    When President Gingrich sees Obamacare become horribly expensive just after 2013, is that not Obama’s fault?

    Entitlements are expensive, no matter how you try to paper them over. They might work on paper one way, if you make ad hoc calculations to prove they will work, but in practice, when demand shoots up like that, it becomes horribly expensive.

    Democrats believe, or act as if they believe, Markets are inefficient, except when the government is spending the money.

    And the truth is almost 180 degrees the other way.

    Now reopublicans have thgeir faulty economic beliefs too.

    Republicans believe, or act aas if they believe, that the poor man is not poor because the rich man is rich, but the middle class is middle class because the poor man is poor.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  43. If any particular state wants to use Massachusetts as a model, that’s one thing. For the federal government to impose it on EVERY state is something entirely different. I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept for some people to understand.
    Comment by Sparks — 12/12/2011 @ 8:32 am

    – Because, frankly, Romney has a difficult time expressing it in a straightforward manner such as you just did.

    Icy (58301d)

  44. Mitt Romney made that offer of a $10,000 bet because he felt sure it would not be accepted, and it was as strong an assertion he could make without actually having to explain himself.

    I hate to admit it, but I thought Mitt won the exchange with Perry on that. Yeah, it was lame, and yeah, you’re right that it avoided an honest explanation of his views (what do you expect from the flip flopper?) but it pushed Perry to appear to back off.

    Just my impression.

    It’s also my impression that there is no honest explanation for why Romney removed that sentence from his book unless Perry is 100% correct. But that’s the problem with these debates. The stodgy honest guy who walks the walk is no match for the shameless liar with the slickest presentation.

    We all know that Romney indeed did discuss Romneycare as a model for other states and ‘the rest of the nation’ and even Obamacare specifically in many respects.

    Obviously, as a detractor to Romney, I hope I’m wrong.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  45. Romney’s using Ann Coulter in a radio commercial. That’s going to go over well in the general election.
    Comment by carlitos — 12/12/2011 @ 9:46 am

    – What’s the over/under on him running that same ad in the general?

    Icy (58301d)

  46. We all know people who do not honor their wagers.

    JD (554e77)

  47. “That’s what MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber says.”

    Dustin – And we know why he has an incentive to say it. We also know he’s a shameless liar who was supposedly providing unbiased research to Congress about ObamaCare while on the White House payroll.

    There are plenty of articles out there which explain the differences between ObamaCare and Romneycare and I’ve linked several of them here. Most people don’t have the inclination to explore the topic and are content just to bash Romney.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  48. If any particular state wants to use Massachusetts as a model, that’s one thing. For the federal government to impose it on EVERY state is something entirely different.

    But Romneycare was imposed on the rest of the country. Not the mandate, but the horrible waste of money. That is something Romney specifically praised Ted Kennedy for contributing, so I’m not sure how he can wiggle out of that one.

    Yes, of course, it’s much less offensive for a level of government one level closer to the people to impose a mistake. Obamacare is approximately fifty times worse in at least that respect.

    But it’s not a contest.

    Both share a tactical flaw… they were never going to save the money promised. Both show a need to use government in extreme ways, instead of letting people handle their own damn affairs however they want to.

    Mitt Romney: Not as bad as Obama is of course an accurate slogan, but it’s hard to come up with a weaker case.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  49. Dustin – You continually fault Romney for his health care reform but never suggest what he should have done instead. As I described earlier in the thread, in Massachusetts in 2005, health care reform was picking up steam one way or another. Putting yourself in Romney’s shoes and knowing you could not sustain a veto, which of the below or some other alternative would you have done?

    “Romney should have envisioned a Democrat governor-in of all places-massachusetts-that wasn’t too hard to foresee was it?”

    madawaskan – I love this argument. I hindsight, Romney should have had the foresight to:

    a)Do nothing because subsequent administrations would screw it up
    b)Do nothing because Democrats were going to ram through their own ballot initiative or legislative solution that he could not veto anyway
    c)Attempt his own legislative solution that had elements of market based reforms and hope for the best

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 9:43 am

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. “But Romneycare was imposed on the rest of the country.”

    Pure Democrat rhetoric.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  51. You continually fault Romney for his health care reform but never suggest what he should have done instead.

    Oh, actually, I did in this very thread just a few minutes ago.

    Nothing is better than a huge government solution that controls economic choices so as to provide freebies.

    Also, Perry improved healthcare in Texas with tort reform.

    Conservatives should be big fans of ‘nothing’. Who was it who recently said ‘better than nothing is a very high bar’? That was quite true.

    Nothing.

    Do Nothing.

    But but but there will still be problems… why isn’t the government fixing them?

    This is not conservatism. It’s true: there will be problems in the world if you’re required to take care of your own business. That’s not something the government MUST solve.

    If there’s a rare case where there is a good government solution to a very serious problem, then a conservative should support that solution. Romneycare, at least in my view, made the problem worse! And it’s 100% predictable that it would. We can try to see little distinctions here and there, but just look at universal health care and other implementations of socialism. It increases demand, and pandering politicians solve it with money. That’s how it always plays out.

    Anyway, I have another additional solution. Mitt should have not increased spending in any area, and also fought hard for tremendously cuts in government. He should have looked at Texas, which had much better growth, and seen that MA’s government was too intrusive and bloated.

    This is, at best, and indirect solution, and of course, MA is a state where only liberals get power (that includes the MA candidate Romney, for sure), so it’s probably hopeless. But that is how MA gets better.

    Cut that government by a third… get it to Texas’s level, which is not really a small government (maybe medium sized?) unless you compare it to places like MA. Get taxes down.

    Then, your subjects become citizens who are expected to take care of their own affairs.

    Yes, super advanced health care costs a lot of money. If you don’t want to pay for it… don’t. There’s your solution.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  52. When President Gingrich sees Obamacare become horribly expensive just after 2013, is that not Obama’s fault?

    How would that be possible when the first bill on his desk on 21 January 2013, will be the repeal of ObamaCare, in its’ entirety?

    AD-RtR/OS! (5bf382)

  53. We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country, and it can be done without letting government take over health care.

    – Emphasis switched to the part of the sentence where it should have been all along.

    Can and should Mitt be blamed for the unworkability of Romneycare? Absolutely. Can and should he be blamed for the federal government copying his flawed model and imposing it on all of us? Absolutely not.

    When a dumb kid copies his test answers from the other dumb kid sitting next to him, and they both fail, does the teacher give both F’s to the kid whose answers were copied? Of course not. And neither is it okay for that first kid’s father, who ostensibly is on his son’s “side” to beat him up for causing the second kid’s failure.

    Icy (58301d)

  54. daleyrocks,

    My concern is that Romney would choose (c) — “hope for the best” — if he were President. RomneyCare is hurting the Massachusetts budget and it will only get worse as federal government transfer payments to Massachusetts decline. (Plus, federal funding helped pay for RomneyCare.) But that’s small change compared to what would happen if Obama’s version of RomneyCare is imposed nationally.

    My only hope is that Romney has learned his lesson, and on occasion his words suggest he has but the main question remains: What lesson has Romney learned? I fear it’s to trust bipartisan solutions more than the market, not only because he refuses to admit ObamaCare was based on RomneyCare but also because his Northeastern Republican roots will propel him to be bipartisan.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  55. Pure Democrat rhetoric.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 10:46 am

    Was Romneycare funded by federal dollars or not, Daleyrocks? That is obviously what I meant.

    Am I wrong?

    You say it’s ‘pure democrat rhetoric’ to oppose the federal government paying for stuff like this?

    I’ve never thought it was.

    Can you elaborate? Are you just saying that if it’s possible for democrats to agree on something, it’s now wrong?

    Because… isn’t that a big problem for someone like Romney, whose arguments are so often pulled from the democrat playbook? I mean, on his freakout about serious social security reform alone, the guy sounded like a Chicago democrat. On the environment he sounded just like Al Gore… hell, he sounded like Al Gore mainlining espresso.

    Are you trying to explain some kind of serious consistent point I can apply equally to Romney? I wish to God you were right, and democrats opposed wasting federal dollars on state level initiatives. I’d probably become a democrat if that were true.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  56. How would that be possible when the first bill on his desk on 21 January 2013, will be the repeal of ObamaCare, in its’ entirety?

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 12/12/2011 @ 10:50 am

    I hope.

    But you’re getting right to the point. Which of these nominees is serious about reforming entitlements, and which is going to try to meet the left halfway and triangulate.

    I have a very negative impression of Romney where I basically think he picks whatever position works for his immediate political ambitions, and I think if I’m correct on that, he will pander more on entitlements, rather than seriously solve these problems.

    DRJ raises a wonderful possibility: what if Romney learned his lesson from his attempt to work with democrats?

    I think Romney could have shown us more passion in his fight against Obamacare than he did. The guy barely ever throws a bone to the Tea Party. He seems to think he did no wrong on Romneycare, so I’m afraid I don’t think he learned this lesson.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  57. daleyrocks (19),

    So when LBJ bears no responsibility for the Great Society? We can’t blame Obama for O-care when it turns out to cost zillions more than he or the CBO claimed? Can’t we say that we knew better at the time?

    I wouldn’t blame Romney for everything that follows R-care, but his big distinction was that they didn’t raise taxes, which is because they (a) were going to siphon a lot of money from Medicaid; and (b) didn’t want to pay the political price. Much better to pass the unfunded entitlement and accuse people of being heartless if you don’t back the inevitable tax increases later. It’s not pretzel logic; it’s pointing out the gross irresponsibility behind R-care. Premiums have shot up in Mass, and any conservative would have predicted it, so I have no problem blaming Romney for it, and so on.

    Karl (f07e38)

  58. “You say it’s ‘pure democrat rhetoric’ to oppose the federal government paying for stuff like this?”

    Dustin – I am saying it is pure Democrat rhetoric to say that ObamaCare is the same as Romneycare. I thought I have made that clear throughout.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. Dustin – I am saying it is pure Democrat rhetoric to say that ObamaCare is the same as Romneycare. I thought I have made that clear throughout.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 11:12 am

    Um… then why did you say my point was pure democrat rhetoric if I’m noting that Obamacare is much worse than Romneycare?

    I noted that Romneycare is imposed on the entire country in one specific way: the feds pay for it. I never said they were the same. Obviously one strips liberty from a single state’s subjects, and the other from the nation’s.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  60. Isn’t it pretty weird to reply to my point that Romneycare costs federal money by complaining about how Romneycare isn’t absolutely the same as Obamacare?

    If you don’t want to respond to my point, no one is forcing you do. Just don’t. If the best you’ve got is that Romney’s policies are better than Obama’s, well… whoop dee doooooo. I agree, actually, but big deal.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  61. “So when LBJ bears no responsibility for the Great Society?”

    “but his big distinction was that they didn’t raise taxes”

    Karl – How many times have LBJ’s programs been altered since they were originated? Do you blame him for the cost overruns for the amendments? Heck, EPWJ was tagging Reagan with social security’s deficits just a couple of month’s ago lest he forget.

    Romney did not increase taxes to implement his plan. Is that statement incorrect? Is he responsible for the mismanagement of the Patrick Administration (Bush tax cuts lead to Obama deficits), I don’t think so.

    I’m not arguing these government interventions in the private insurance market work, because experience shows they typically increase costs. Look at Maine, Tennessee and New York in health insurance. New Jersey killed its car insurance market for years and California devastated its workers compensation market by intervention.

    Romneycare, at least in my view was a more market based solution than ObamaCare in a state which already overregulated the provision of health care.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  62. “If you don’t want to respond to my point, no one is forcing you do.”

    Dustin – See #40.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. “Um… then why did you say my point was pure democrat rhetoric if I’m noting that Obamacare is much worse than Romneycare?”

    Dustin – Um….because I had not seen your clarification at that point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  64. Romney has his moment as they all do coming up – some internal polling show that Perry Bachmann, Paul and Santorum have upward movement in Iowa and all other states and the NEWMITT support is tempid at best

    Also gingrich had two failed fundraisers in Florida where he packed the room but only raised 25 thousand and Romney and Perry each raised a million in other fudraisers

    ithout ataff, ever since Perot – th Republican state ballots require (many do) signatures – podium perching isnt going to get those collected

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  65. “My concern is that Romney would choose (c) — “hope for the best” — if he were President.”

    DRJ – Among the scenarios I laid out I view c) as the only responsible scenario for a governor in Romney’s situation – knowing there was potentially much was in the pipeline.

    I frankly don’t understand the “do nothing” scenario given the political context. To me it seems an abdication of political responsibility.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. daleyrocks:

    Romney did not increase taxes to implement his plan. Is that statement incorrect?

    The only reason Romney did not increase taxes is that half the funding came from the federal government and half came from tax increases under Dukakis. In other words, there was a tax increase involved, not only in Massachusetts but also nationally, because we all had to fund RomneyCare.

    Furthermore, since the federal government subsidized RomneyCare from the start, I don’t think you can call it a market-based solution. At most, it’s a government cake with market icing. RomneyCare is clearly a new entitlement and as its name suggests, Romney is its daddy.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  67. Potentially much worse in the pipeline.

    DRJ – No idea what hwe would propose if elected president. I doubt he would be backed into the same type of corner and as a businessman he understands how negatively government intervention such as ObamaCare can impact the overall economy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  68. “The only reason Romney did not increase taxes is that half the funding came from the federal government and half came from tax increases under Dukakis.”

    DRJ – The state made the decision to pay for uncompensated care in Massachusetts. For Gruber to claim that a 1980s era Dukakis tax pre-anticipated Romneycare is disingenuous at best.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. Well, rehashing Romneycare is probably not necessary. No conservative I’ve ever met thinks it worked.

    Would Romney have lost his bet? did he in fact think Romneycare was a model for the rest of the states? I think he clearly did, and his edit of a book didn’t happen just for giggles… he was flip flopping.

    Here’s what Romney deleted from his book:

    We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country

    What did that mean? Why did Romney edit his argument out of his own book after the Obamacare debate showed Americans rejected everyone in the country having Romneycare?

    It’s not complicated.

    Mitt Romney’s exchange with Perry shows that my negative appraisal of Mitt’s character is justified.

    Good for Perry for rubbing Romney’s record in his face. Shame on Republicans who support or merely supported the individual mandate for everyone in the country. Government doesn’t need to solve every problem by controlling economic choices.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  70. daleyrocks:

    I frankly don’t understand the “do nothing” scenario given the political context. To me it seems an abdication of political responsibility.

    So you think it’s better to have a bipartisan solution that sucks vs a Democratic solution that really, really sucks? I think it’s better to let Democratic proposals sink without GOP names on it.

    I doubt he would be backed into the same type of corner …

    That’s positive thinking. With the problems we face, I suspect future Presidents will face corners that make today’s corners look delightful.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  71. “Furthermore, since the federal government subsidized RomneyCare from the start, I don’t think you can call it a market-based solution.”

    DRJ – If people are eligible for federal programs is that a subsidy? Remember that was always the big criticism against Obama’s citation of a 50 million uninsured number. It excluded people eligible for medicaid and medicare who had not signed up, illegal immigrants, etc.

    The private market is providing the insurance, not the government.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  72. daleyrocks:

    The state made the decision to pay for uncompensated care in Massachusetts. For Gruber to claim that a 1980s era Dukakis tax pre-anticipated Romneycare is disingenuous at best.

    And yet he claimed it, and he’s in a much better position than either of us to know what he’s talking about … and no apparent motive to hurt Romney.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  73. “That’s positive thinking. With the problems we face, I suspect future Presidents will face corners that make today’s corners look delightful.”

    DRJ – Keep hope alive!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  74. daleyrocks:

    If people are eligible for federal programs is that a subsidy?

    Of course it is. And now that programs like Medicaid and Medicare have grown so big, they set the market in some places.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  75. “So you think it’s better to have a bipartisan solution that sucks vs a Democratic solution that really, really sucks? I think it’s better to let Democratic proposals sink without GOP names on it.”

    DRJ – Heh. That seems to be the consensus around here. No Republican should ever risk being governor of a blue state since their name will be tarnished forever because people will completely ignore the political reality in which they operated.

    I disagree. You look at places like New York City and how they turn to Republican mayors to shake things up when things get really out of whack. Baby steps.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  76. I get that Romney’s people think starting with Ted Kennedy’s bill and using his staffers and consultants to get MassCare makes it differenty from Obamaney Care.

    I get that he thinks the cost of bumping the insured from 92% to 96% justifies the cost.

    I get that Romney thinks his having a path to citizenship is less Amnesty for illegals than Newts ‘go to the end of the line’.

    He makes my skin crawl-like an undertaker visiting me in the hospital and leering at the Florsheims in my cubby.

    GTFO of my face.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  77. “And yet he claimed it, and he’s in a much better position than either of us to know what he’s talking about … and no apparent motive to hurt Romney.”

    DRJ – Gruber has a tremendous motive to undermine Romney. He was secretly working for the White House in 2009-2010 while theoretically presenting unbiased analysis to Congress on ObamaCare.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. “Of course it is. And now that programs like Medicaid and Medicare have grown so big, they set the market in some places.”

    DRJ – Oh, I thought it was just getting some of your own taxpayers money back to your state.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. Gotta go for a bit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  80. No Republican should ever risk being governor of a blue state

    You have a point, daleyrocks.

    Except I think there are two ways for a Republican to go about governing a blue state. Mike Castle governed Delaware with a very business friendly demeanor. Never did he scream that he wouldn’t create jobs over the environment, for example.

    He didn’t just balance the budget with tricks… the budget was balanced.

    And yeah, Castle turned out to pander in many ways to the liberals in his state, but he combined that with at least some kind of conservatism when he was governor.

    At the end of the day… his panders to the left did him in anyway. It’s not clear how someone could successfully win office in Delaware and be conservative on a wider number of issues.

    Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani were also executives in liberal places. They also cater to the left on some issues, but they fight or fought hard on other issues. So you have to decide if the issues they catered to the left on are unacceptable.

    For me, I need someone who will reform entitlements and get spending under control. Romney never got spending under control in MA.

    MA is the most liberal state in the union, so Romney had to BE liberal to win his sole election there. Why shouldn’t I take that into account? Romney promised all manner of views that are very liberal.

    My view is that politicians should just be themselves, and if they can’t win elections in MA by preaching for conservative policies, so be it. That’s democracy.

    You suggest Romney was ‘baby steps’ for shaking things up in MA, the way Rudy was in NYC? No he wasn’t. If Romney had governed like Christ Christie, showing political skills and powerful arguments, this would be a different election.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  81. “Gruber has a tremendous motive to undermine Romney. He was secretly working for the White House”

    He also worked for Romney, so does that mean he has a tremendous motive to undermine Obama?

    You act like it’s just a fact that Obama and Romney are opposites, so if you’re cool with one, you’re tremendously motivated against the other.

    That’s not the case for Gruber. Gruber wants the government to do something about healthcare, just like Romney and Obama, and he made an apt point that both these men were motivated to do something very similar about it.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  82. ISTM that this is all academic anyway, since it is obvious that RomneyCare is a failed program, and has fallen far short of even Romney’s limited goals,
    not even mentioning the further expansion of the program under Patrick.
    It is the perfect predictor of ObamaCare:
    A program designed to fail and be a burden upon the taxpayer for the life of the program, and beyond –
    particularly when considering the ramp-up in pressure to go to a full-blown NHS-type program,
    gutting the medical-care insurance industry in the process, to address all of the short-comings in Romney/ObamaCare.

    AD-RtR/OS! (5bf382)

  83. I think that Romney knows all the information that Dustin and DRJ have painstakenly amassed. He knows this, he has executive and detailed reports on this and is for a better word spinning or lying about what romney care did to the state and the country.

    He’s a nice person, well meaning, just not really a Republican nor a conservative

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  84. Madawaskan is 100% correct that as a matter of strategy, Romney should have assumed the democrats would one day have control over these new initiatives. This is politics 101.

    By the same standard, Bush should have assumed that one day the powers granted by the USA PATRIOT Act would fall into the hands of another Janet Reno.

    (I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m vigorously agreeing.)

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  85. disagree. You look at places like New York City and how they turn to Republican mayors to shake things up when things get really out of whack. Baby steps.

    Bloomberg is not a Republican. And Giuliani may be one, but he’s also Elliot Spitzer’s twin in temperament; a bully, a mean person, someone who sees other people as a means for him to advance.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  86. He makes my skin crawl-like an undertaker visiting me in the hospital and leering at the size 13 Florsheim in my cubby up my ass.

    fify, gilrud.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  87. If Romney had governed like Christ Christie, showing political skills and powerful arguments, this would be a different election.

    He’ll just have to be content with winning the Fat Man’s endorsement.

    How ’bout them Cowboys!

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  88. “You suggest Romney was ‘baby steps’ for shaking things up in MA, the way Rudy was in NYC? No he wasn’t. If Romney had governed like Christ Christie, showing political skills and powerful arguments, this would be a different election.”

    Dustin – I’m not making the direct analogy between Romney and Christie and Giuliani. Giuliani is much more of a social lib than Romney and I’ll never understand why Perry endorsed him. New York and New Jersey voters were much more fed up when they elected Christie and Giuliani than when Romney was elected. That was my point. Romney fixed a near term budget problem, made some government pension reforms, but faced fundamentally different issues than Giuliani and Christie.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  89. “He’s a nice person, well meaning, just not really a Republican nor a conservative”

    He’s really just on a long book tour.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  90. “Gruber wants the government to do something about healthcare, just like Romney and Obama, and he made an apt point that both these men were motivated to do something very similar about it.”

    Dustin – Right, except that Gruber wants Democrats in office. Just a slight personal bias of his.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  91. Gruber, was hiding the fact he was a party to the design, while lobbying for Obamacare, that is part of the problem. and Romney is not unique, but his circumstance does indicate the plight of any Republican in a deep blue state like Massachussetts,

    https://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/overestimating-romney_611846.html

    narciso (87e966)

  92. “And Giuliani may be one, but he’s also Elliot Spitzer’s twin in temperament; a bully, a mean person, someone who sees other people as a means for him to advance.”

    Milhouse – Giuliani got things done that Democrat mayors who preceded him could not or were afraid to do. Thank you for helping me to make my point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  93. daleyrocks:

    Right, except that Gruber wants Democrats in office. Just a slight personal bias of his.

    Then why did Romney let him anywhere near his Administration or RomneyCare? Is this what we can expect from a Romney Administration?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  94. Right, except that Gruber wants Democrats in office. Just a slight personal bias of his.

    One of those slightly nuanced things that fly over some people’s head.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  95. Then why did Romney let him anywhere near his Administration or RomneyCare? Is this what we can expect from a Romney Administration?

    One could expect this less than the likelihood of Perry engaging with MALDEF, La Raza and MECHA in formulating immigration strategy. He’s helping to build Aztlan.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  96. Perry is a very nice man he would never do that

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  97. “Then why did Romney let him anywhere near his Administration or RomneyCare?”

    DRJ – Was Gruber the only person advising on Romneycare? I don’t believe so, but from the news accounts tarring Romney you would think so just to make him look bad, which is in definitely in the interest of the Democrats. That’s why I think Gruber loves to keep repeating the line that Romneycare and Obamacare are the same, just to make Romney look bad in the eyes of conservative voters.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  98. I think Gruber’s bias is for more government, so why would he be biased against Romney, who also wants more government? Gruber was willing to work for democrats and republicans. Granted, Romney has told us he was an independent at times, so maybe that’s what he told Gruber?

    Anyway, the man who help make Obamacare and Romneycare doesn’t think there’s a big philosophical difference between them. I don’t hear anyone refuting him directly.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  99. Haiku and daleyrocks,

    Engaging with people who don’t share your views is a President’s and Governor’s job. Making them your policy adviser is not.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  100. Texas Democrat in coyote’s clothing.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  101. DRJ… providing services that act as a magnet to attract Mexico’s abundance of unskilled labor is a fool’s errand.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  102. I don’t believe so, but from the news accounts tarring Romney you would think so just to make him look bad,

    I have never read a hint of suggestion that Gruber was the only man advising Romney. What in the world?

    Also, why is it in the interest of democrats to trash Romney, the most liberal candidate? Wouldn’t they want the incumbent democrat to compete against the candidate with the least ability to be distinguished? Haven’t many democrats cheered Romney being the nominee because it will help cement Obamacare as acceptable with the middle? Wouldn’t most democrats prefer Romney as their next president to Newt or Perry or Huntsman?

    I think asserting bad faith requires something a little more than just ‘he’s liberal so he must trashing Romney just to help Obama’.

    Anyway, if there is another adviser out there making a convincing case for Romneycare being philosophically different from Obamacare, rather than just a state level version of it, I’m happy to read that. Isn’t that a better approach than just saying we can’t listen to this one guy who probably actually likes Romneycare?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  103. I’d attack Perry, too, if I supported Romney.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  104. DRJ – Gruber is just a weasel, which is why I made that comment about your earlier link with the video. The Massachusetts decision to have the state reimburse health providers for uncompensated care rather than have them suck up losses or try to raise prices and make up the difference from other patients was funded by that Dukakis tax in 1988. The cost of reimbursing providers for that uncompensated care had more than exceeded the proceeds of that tax by the time Romney became governor, which is why he gave the cost of uncompensated care as one of the motivations behind the bill. Gruber hides the ball there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  105. I believe this was before his role came to light

    http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10
    /13/mit-economist-finds-flaws-in-insurance-industry-report/

    narciso (87e966)

  106. Good Allah

    JD (554e77)

  107. “Engaging with people who don’t share your views is a President’s and Governor’s job. Making them your policy adviser is not.”

    DRJ – I’m not sure I understand the distinction. If you have advisors representing all views, you can pick and choose from recommendations or instruct a policy advisor to adopt a point of view and construct policy the way you want after duly considering an array of options. Seems like common sense.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. Engaging with people who don’t share your views is a President’s and Governor’s job.

    What about selling access to the office… or accepting enormous gratuities that would get most private sector employees sent packing, DRJ? Is that part of a governor’s responsibilities?

    I expect not.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  109. daleyrocks,

    How big a role did Gruber play in advising Romney on Romneycare?

    Haiku,

    By the way, the recession is over in Texas:

    “The recent national recession is over and the economy is once again expanding,” [Texas Comptroller Susan] Combs said. “Through October 2011, Texas has recovered 94 percent of the jobs lost during the recession; the U.S. just 27 percent.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  110. DRJ – I think you and I would have very different management styles. I want the input from different opinions but reserve the decision-making and expect people to respect decisions once made.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  111. providing services that act as a magnet to attract Mexico’s abundance of unskilled labor is a fool’s errand.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/12/2011 @ 4:21 pm

    Let’s troll up a change of subject, since there is no excuse for Romney signing into law a horrible tax and spend future, making MA, already the more liberal state in the country, substantially worse.

    BTW, Romney gave illegals jobs, begged for amnesty, and gave them free health care, while doing nothing to secure the border. Perry walked the walk on an honest effort to secure the border, reject amnesty and Romney style free health care, He’s much better on this issue, and if this was your true measure of candidates, you wouldn’t be trollin’ for Romney.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  112. Hit Perry all you want, Haiku. I won’t mind a bit if he comes back home to Texas.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  113. want the input from different opinions

    Funny, there’s another Daleyrocks here who says this Gruber guy’s opinion has no merit.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  114. daleyrocks,

    My management style is answering questions when people ask them, if I can.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  115. “How big a role did Gruber play in advising Romney on Romneycare?”

    DRJ – I’ve got no freaking idea, but people are making him out to be the architect of both.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  116. DRJ or Dustin… does Rick Perry really think there is a country of “Solyndra”?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/11/rick-perry-country-solynda_n_1142528.html

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  117. daleyrocks,

    Surely you aren’t saying that conservative policy advisers are so stupid that they can’t understand, let alone articulate, the other side’s positions?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  118. “Rick Perry… Texas Deranger”

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  119. DRJ or Dustin… does Rick Perry really think there is a country of “Solyndra”?

    Yes.

    Similarly, Romney thinks Asia is a country.

    You see, when someone makes an obvious verbal gaffe, serious and honest people believe that is what they really think. Obama really thinks there are 57 states, and Romney really thinks the only reason not to employ illegals is if you’re running for office, for pete’s sake.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  120. Let’s troll up a change of subject, since there is no excuse for Romney signing into law a horrible tax and spend future

    Sure there is, but let’s move on.

    BTW, Romney gave illegals jobs, begged for amnesty, and gave them free health care, while doing nothing to secure the border.

    Actually there is no proof apart from your opinion that Romney knew he was giving jobs to illegals, I believe he was against amnesty, all states are required to give illegal aliens medical care, and apart from the its maritime border which is the responsibility of the Coast Guard, Massachusetts has no international border to secure.

    Next.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  121. “Surely you aren’t saying that conservative policy advisers are so stupid that they can’t understand, let alone articulate, the other side’s positions?”

    DRJ – Surely you aren’t saying that conservative politicians are so insecure they cannot have a few project specific liberal policy advisors without worrying about getting progressive cooties?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  122. Think of it this way: Rick Perry and Mitt Romney were both stewards of a family dog. Romney neglected (at best) his. Perry used decisive force to defend his.

    No contest: Perry would do what he could for our interests. Romney would strap us on the roof of the car for four of the coldest and filthiest years of our lives.

    And no, this is not a serious argument. It is a joke.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  123. I dont think an advisor is the tipping point of the camel but the large trillion dollar plus takeover of 2/13ths of the entire American economy that romney has been reluctantly tied too could be a game changer in a sea of 100% purity called the 2012 Republican Primary – where conservative Lions like Santorum and Perry are called squishes

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  124. “Funny, there’s another Daleyrocks here who says this Gruber guy’s opinion has no merit.”

    Dustin – Do you mean specifically on the subject of whether ObamaCare is the same as Romneycare or something else? Have you been following the conversation?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  125. This Commonwealth Magazine article sounds like Gruber played a significant role in crafting RomneyCare and influencing Romney:

    As of April 12, 2006, Jonathan Gruber became the most influential economist in Massachusetts government. That was the day Gov. Mitt Romney signed a sweeping health care reform law that had Gruber’s distinct fingerprints on it. Of course, at the Faneuil Hall bill-signing ceremony the cameras focused on Romney and key legislative leaders-and on U.S. Senator Edward M. Kennedy, who flew in for the event. But it was Gruber, 41, a professor of economics at MIT, who had pushed from the beginning for a new state requirement that all residents of the Commonwealth carry health insurance.
    ***
    By early 2005, the Romney administration was beginning to look seriously at health care reform. Lischko and her boss, Health and Human Services Secretary Ron Preston, were charged with investigating whether universal health care coverage could work in Massachusetts—and how much it would cost to get there. They brought Gruber back to run the numbers.

    An individual mandate was one of many ideas on the table. Such a mandate had been recommended by Urban Institute researchers in the Roadmap to Coverage reports of 2004 and 2005, produced in partnership with the Blue Cross Blue Shield Foundation. “I think probably my single biggest contribution to this debate was pointing out that a mandate was absolutely critical to making it work,” Gruber now says. Romney bought into the idea and made that the centerpiece of the reform.

    Gruber has made health care his speciality and I have no problem with Romney learning from Gruber. But it sounds like Romney did far more than listen to Gruber. He signed on to his ideas.

    It’s interesting to see Gruber talk about health care trade-offs. Apparently he’s fine with people not getting health care, as long as we’re all making do with less.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  126. Sorry that’s to not too, that twice I too’d when all I needed to was to not too

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  127. What about selling access to the office… or accepting enormous gratuities that would get most private sector employees sent packing, DRJ?

    As the sainted Reagan said, “There you go again”. Perry did no such thing.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  128. Oh, yes he has, milhouse. Apparently, the practice is not thought to be any big deal in Texas. You claiming he hasn’t changes nothing,

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  129. Do you mean specifically on the subject of whether ObamaCare is the same as Romneycare or something else? Have you been following the conversation?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 4:45 pm

    Have you been reading my comments, daleyrocks?

    Anyway, there are several threads to this conversation. One if that Romney lied in the debate to say Romneycare wasn’t a model for other states, and in fact, Romneycare was the model for Obamacare.

    That’s one.

    But I understand why it’s hard to keep up, with Haiku injecting any random distraction he can… almost as if he doesn’t want us talking about Romneycare for some reason.

    We’re back to how corrupt Perry was for taking a complimentary plane trip to a speech he was giving? hahahahahaha

    Dustin (cb3719)

  130. “Perry used decisive force to defend his.”

    http://youtu.be/DaNwjZu9a_Q

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  131. Oh, yes he has, milhouse. Apparently, the practice is not thought to be any big deal in Texas. You claiming he hasn’t changes nothing,

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/12/2011 @ 4:50 pm

    Uh huh. The lavish lifestyle of flying for free to an event where he gives a speech. Oh, and the use of a state residence provided to the governor, which I guess Romney didn’t need, making him… more ethical for some reason?

    All this is just an effort to stop the conversation about Romneycare. I love it. All you’re saying is you’ve got nothing.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  132. Similarly, Romney thinks Asia is a country.

    You see, when someone makes an obvious verbal gaffe, serious and honest people believe that is what they really think. Obama really thinks there are 57 states, and Romney really thinks the only reason not to employ illegals is if you’re running for office, for pete’s sake.

    OTOH, Obama really does seem to have thought the S in “corpsman” was pronounced. Which is fine for someone who’s not used to hearing it pronounced. Until I was 18 I thought there was a verb “to misle” (pronounced “mizzle”). And I pronounced “parameter” “PA-ra-mee-ter”, like “kilometre”. But if you’re Commander in Chief you should be paying enough attention to have picked up the correct pronunciation.

    And I’m pretty sure he really did think Austrian was a language. That didn’t sound like a speako, the way that the “57 states” thing clearly did.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  133. daleyrocks:

    What about selling access to the office… or accepting enormous gratuities that would get most private sector employees sent packing, DRJ? Is that part of a governor’s responsibilities?

    Since you asked, I think a Governor’s job is to obey all legal and ethical rules. I hope Perry avoids favoritism, even when it isn’t illegal or unethical, but he’s a politician and human so I’m sure it happens (especially with other Aggies). And I have no problem with him living in an extravagant home at state expense while the Governor’s Mansion is being rebuilt.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  134. Have no fear, Romney supporters. Maxed out on your contribution, but you still want to support Romney? Just give money to his kid’s investment startup. Pay to play is A O K!

    Meanwhile, that evil Perry took a free plane ride. I bet he didn’t even claim the peanuts as income. Lock him up and throw away the key!

    Dustin (cb3719)

  135. ““I think probably my single biggest contribution to this debate was pointing out that a mandate was absolutely critical to making it work,” Gruber now says.”

    DRJ – Seems like a humble guy. It’s a no brainer it doesn’t work without a mandate of some kind. I explained the political environment way earlier in the thread. A push for universal coverage coming in Massachusetts whether Romney acted or not. A ballot initiative for it had already gotten 75,000 signatures and the legislature had promised to pass its own version. That’s why my a,b,c hypothetical represented the state of play for Romney, not fantasy.

    If people want to blame him for trying to shape something that was going to happen with or without him, go for it. I say it’s an abdication of his responsibilities as governor to get out of the way and let the Democrats do their worst. YMMV.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  136. And I have no problem with him living in an extravagant home at state expense while the Governor’s Mansion is being rebuilt.

    Or indeed with him doing so after it’s rebuilt!

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  137. “Since you asked”

    DRJ – Not me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. daleyrocks:

    DRJ-Surely you aren’t saying that conservative politicians are so insecure they cannot have a few project specific liberal policy advisors without worrying about getting progressive cooties?

    Apparently that’s what happened in Romney’s case, so Yes.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  139. “Just give money to his kid’s investment startup. Pay to play is A O K!”

    Dustin – Is that the equivalent to buying and selling real estate with Perry?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  140. Oh, you’re right, daleyrocks. I’m sorry. My comment #135 should have been directed at Colonel Haiku.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  141. daleyrocks #137,

    So if Romney has already conceded health care won’t work without a mandate, where does that leave him as President?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  142. “Apparently that’s what happened in Romney’s case, so Yes.”

    DRJ – Well, I disagree that’s what happened in Romney’s case and provided links to support my opinion. Not my problem if nobody is interested and doesn’t change my opinion.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. DRJ

    Points being made – latst polls showing Newt Mitt declining Perry gaining fast Bachmann and Santorum also gaining

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  144. And I provided a link showing that Romney was swayed by Gruber’s position on mandates, which is why I said Romney apparently fell victim to your “progressive cooties” argument. Obviously I know I won’t change your opinion but I think there are two sides to this debate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  145. “So if Romney has already conceded health care won’t work without a mandate, where does that leave him as President?”

    DRJ – Repealing ObamaCare Day 1 or giving a waiver to every state as promised. I have no idea what else he’s said about health care. Just because Dustin claims I’m a Romney supporter, don’t assume that I am.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. re: post #141… that never happened, daley, cuz Dustin says it didn’t.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  147. Is that the equivalent to buying and selling real estate with Perry?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 5:01 pm

    I’m not sure. Did Perry ask his donors to buy his real estate? No?

    Then it’s not equivalent. Do you have some actual corruption? Do you have the appearance of impropriety? I assume there must be something, since Perry was governor for twelve years. Since we’re still talking about the free plane ride thing, which is a laughable complaint, I guess the Perry detractors are lacking for something more substantial that is also true.

    But nice job talking about something other than Romneycare.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  148. “And I provided a link showing that Romney was swayed by Gruber’s position on mandates”

    DRJ – I think it was my fault for being unclear. I do not believe the idea that universal coverage would not work without some form of a mandate was unique to Gruber. Heritage and others were writing about it. It’s just an extension of the free rider problem. The links I provided about the goals of Romneycare versus its implementation included some from places like Heritage.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  149. daleyrocks,

    I’m not assuming anything about you, I’m simply asking whether a governor like Romney — who has already decided that a mandate is the health care answer — can now credibly claim he has other answers? I can think of situations where a governor supported solutions that didn’t work and has a change of heart. But wouldn’t he also have to admit the original solution didn’t work before he can credibly argue for another solution — just as Perry did with Gardasil and Gingrich did with Nancy Pelosi’s climate change?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  150. “Did Perry ask his donors to buy his real estate? No?”

    Dustin – He flipped real estate profitably with people he ultimately gave administration jobs to.

    Did Romney ask donors to buy his investment fund? No.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  151. “I’m not assuming anything about you, I’m simply asking whether a governor like Romney — who has already decided that a mandate is the health care answer — can now credibly claim he has other answers?”

    DRJ – I think there are credible non-federal solutions, including multi-state compacts instead of single state regulation of health insurance policies. There were a number of solutions proposed in 2009-2010 which did not see much daylight.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  152. DRJ – I see no reason why Romney can’t take the position that the states need to take the initiative in that arena, just like her did in Massachusetts. It would be a consistent and credible message. Feds hands off.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  153. I see. So anyone who ever did business with the governor should forever be barred from government employment. Is that it?

    And did Romney ask donors to invest with his son? Yes, he did.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  154. Out again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  155. “And did Romney ask donors to invest with his son? Yes, he did.”

    Milhouse – Link please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  156. Dustin provided it several threads ago. Search for it yourself.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  157. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – I think there are credible non-federal solutions, including multi-state compacts instead of single state regulation of health insurance policies. There were a number of solutions proposed in 2009-2010 which did not see much daylight.

    I agree that there are other solutions but Romney didn’t pick any of those. He picked a mandate as the only feasible solution. He has to scale back if he wants to be the GOP nominee but it’s hard for him to do it and be credible. It’s hard to claim you have a small government appetite when you already ate the whole pie.

    DRJ – I see no reason why Romney can’t take the position that the states need to take the initiative in that arena, just like her did in Massachusetts. It would be a consistent and credible message. Feds hands off.

    It would be consistent but he has a lot of convincing to do, because this is his weakness. It would help convince me if he said (and acted like he means it) that, after enacting universal health care, Massachusetts should also have to pay its own way.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  158. Comment by Milhouse — 12/12/2011 @ 5:24 pm

    And did Romney ask donors to invest with his son? Yes, he did.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/12/2011 @ 5:25 pm

    Milhouse – Link please.

    Comment by Milhouse — 12/12/2011 @ 5:31 pm

    Dustin provided it several threads ago. Search for it yourself.

    I wouldn’t know where to find that. I did find information about a somewhat different issue I didn’t know about..

    Exclusive: Romney Family Investment Group Partnered With Alleged Perpetrators Of $8 Billion Ponzi Scheme by Lee Fang on Nov 1, 2011 at 9:30 am

    The post says the Romney campaign said they were a left wing blog but didn’t dispute anything.

    The Romney campaign and the Romney family investment company are deeply entwined. A recent Boston Globe investigation found that top donors to the Romney campaign have invested into Tagg’s firm, and that Romney’s star campaign fundraiser, Spencer Zwick, doubles as a managing partner for Solamere Capital. The Romney campaign has paid Zwick’s firm, SJZ LLC, over $2 million in fees this year alone….

    Tagg, short for Taggart, is the name of Romney’s son. The investment firm, founded in 2008, is called Solamere Capital, and is basically a Fund of Funds.

    So what we have here is that the same people who are investing in his son’s company are also donating to Romney’s campaign. I suppose you’d expect them to.

    What’s wrong with that company? They want to say there is something that would indicate the company needs special protection.

    But it is not clear that there is any there there.

    They say that recently Solamere created a new “wealth management business” as a subsidiary partnering with three men who were involved with what they say is the second best biggest Ponzi scheme in American history, next to Bernard Madoff – a $8.5 billion Ponzi scheme.

    Tagg Romney says that’s no problem:

    Tagg Romney told ThinkProgress that his three partners collected about $15,000 from their involvement in the Ponzi scheme. Court documents obtained by ThinkProgress show that the legal proceedings are ongoing and the men made over $1.6 million selling fraudulent CDs to investors.

    By “court documents” what are they referring to? Claims in a lawsuit. That’s a court document, right? Not a court ruling, but still, a court document!!

    Sammy Finkelman (b17872)

  159. DRJ-Surely you aren’t saying that conservative politicians are so insecure they cannot have a few project specific liberal policy advisors without worrying about getting progressive cooties?

    Didn’t Milton Friedman say that all government programs, no matter how conservatively conceived, devolve to the left over time, or words to that effect?

    AD-RtR/OS! (5bf382)

  160. Taibbi’s a leftwinger, but that doesn’t mean this isn’t true: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/rick-perry-the-best-little-whore-in-texas-20111026#ixzz1gNTWRwTD

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  161. Do yourself a favor and google Lee Fang, Sammy.

    Colonel Haiku (db6c74)

  162. 125.I dont think an advisor is the tipping point of the camel but the large trillion dollar plus takeover of 2/13ths of the entire American economy that romney has been reluctantly tied too could be a game changer in a sea of 100% purity called the 2012 Republican Primary – where conservative Lions like Santorum and Perry are called squishes
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/12/2011 @ 4:45 pm

    – Thanks for kinda, sorta admitting that Romney is NOT responsible for what the Democratic US Congress and POTUS enacted.

    Personal responsibility, Eric. Romney is responsible for RomneyCare, and Obama is responsible for ObamaCare.

    Icy (8e81e4)

  163. Funny. I was under the impression that Perry thinks Texas A&M is a sovereign country.

    Icy (8e81e4)

  164. just
    dying to
    roll over
    stripped
    for parts
    beerfart
    Certs

    kaopectate (db6c74)

  165. “It’s hard to claim you have a small government appetite when you already ate the whole pie.”

    “It would help convince me if he said (and acted like he means it) that, after enacting universal health care, Massachusetts should also have to pay its own way.”

    DRJ – This gets back to my gripe with Texas and the amount the state takes from the feds. It ain’t supportive of a small government attitude. I get an argument back from Dustin and others saying it’s just Texans getting their tax money back. Apply the same argument here. Massachusetts still gets less of their federal taxes back than Texas. I’m sorry, you can’t have it both ways, support it for Texas and be against it for Massachusetts.

    In terms of the mandate which you claim Romney chose as the only solution, my argument is that universal coverage was coming to Massachusetts one way or another. He avoided the public option, which was to have the government be the insurer, which many progressives want, for the bulk of residents. If you are aware of universal coverage options that don’t involve mandates, I’d like to hear about them to understand what solutions you believe Romney overlooked.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  166. “Dustin provided it several threads ago. Search for it yourself.

    Comment by Milhouse — 12/12/2011 @ 5:31 pm”

    Dustin provided a link showing a campaign manager using a donor list to ask for contributions after the 2008 campaign was over.

    Prove your point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  167. “The post says the Romney campaign said they were a left wing blog but didn’t dispute anything.”

    Sammy – It funny how they say that and also don’t provide any links to the court documents they claim to have to support their claims.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  168. Funny I was under the assumption that Icy was bringing some civil discourse to the political table.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  169. Thank you, DohBiden. I really wish that some of the posters around here wouldn’t read nearly every criticism of their OPINIONS as a personal attack. Characterizing your political rival as being “a bad person” is something that (I thought) was mainly engaged in by leftys.

    Icy (8e81e4)

  170. daleyrocks:

    “It would help convince me if he said (and acted like he means it) that, after enacting universal health care, Massachusetts should also have to pay its own way.”

    DRJ – This gets back to my gripe with Texas and the amount the state takes from the feds. It ain’t supportive of a small government attitude.

    Frankly, I wish Texas didn’t take any federal funds because there’s too much baggage associated with the funds we take. But the point of my comment was that Massachusetts shouldn’t get any special block grants or stimulus funds to help balance its health care budget. It’s fine if Massachusetts wants to experiment with health care but don’t expect to do it with federal funds, and the same goes for other states. Using federal funding rigs the health care experiments so we can’t tell what works and what doesn’t.

    In terms of the mandate which you claim Romney chose as the only solution, my argument is that universal coverage was coming to Massachusetts one way or another. He avoided the public option, which was to have the government be the insurer, which many progressives want, for the bulk of residents.

    If universal health care was inevitable in Massachusetts, my kind of conservative would refuse to put his name on it and let the Democrats take all the credit blame.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  171. I agree that Icy brings civil discourse to the table, not to mention some great humor. As for Perry, I don’t think he looks at Texas A&M as a sovereign country. More like a sovereign kingdom or maybe even heaven on earth.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  172. “But the point of my comment was that Massachusetts shouldn’t get any special block grants or stimulus funds to help balance its health care budget.”

    DRJ – I’m not aware of Massachusetts getting any stimulus funds for its “experiment.” If you can point it out, I would appreciate it.

    Massachusetts had some sort of Medicaid waiver well preceding Romney which continued after the reform.

    In Perry’s Texas budget presentation, the federal aid, to the extent it flowed through the state’s hands at all, would be tucked away from the main presentation because it would not be considered a “controllable.”

    That’s why when you ask me questions about whether I think Romney would be willing to rely on non-government solutions if elected, I have to turn around and point to Perry’s reliance on big government for Texas’ budget and ask about your confidence in his willingness to cut given his state’s reliance on the federal government. I have grave doubts. He talks the talk, but has not walked the walk.

    That’s why it seems unfair to criticize Romney for taking available federal money on the one hand while Perry is taking it hand over fist with the other. There’s something wrong with that picture in my mind.

    If universal health care was inevitable in Massachusetts, my kind of conservative would refuse to put his name on it and let the Democrats take all the credit blame.

    My mistake, I thought there were other alternatives you were implying he should have attempted to pass. Not being part of the process to me is just like Gov. Brown and the AG in California refusing to defend Prop. 8 in court. A disgraceful abdication of their elected responsibilities.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  173. It’s my understanding that Massachusetts obtained increased federal funding to enable it to meet its escalating health care budget:

    The article reports that “federal financial participation” (including from a special Medicaid waiver) as a source of revenues is projected at $1,272 million for 2009, a $584 million increase from the pre-reform amount of $688 million in 2006, or an annual growth rate of 22.7 percent.

    While other revenue sources changed during 2006-2009, the increase in total state expenditures of $591 million is approximately equal to the $584 million increase in federal funding.

    My link is to a blog but its contents are based on a New England Journal of Medicine op-ed that is linked at the blog.

    As for Texas, feel free to criticize its government and leaders. I do, too, but the way things are going, I wouldn’t trade them for any other state government. However, I would loan them to the national government.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  174. More here and here on Massachusetts’ reliance on federal funds to subsidize its health care.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  175. DRJ’s conveying my view. Texas is not perfect. Our leaders are not saints. But we’re clearly doing it better than a lot of other folks are.

    Also, refuting Romneycare with ‘but look at Texas’ just doesn’t seem very reasonable.

    Texans pay taxes to the federal government. It would be best if the feds weren’t sending money to states at all, but if they are, why shouldn’t Texas recover her fair share? That is how democrats always trash Republicans with this ‘you shouldn’t use the police department if you don’t believe in relying on the government’, and I just don’t think that’s very logical.

    No, by supporting conservatives in the legislature, Texans wish to reduce the size of government and the deficit and the tax burden and the federal funding of all manner of crap. But it’s not like we’re so stupid we’re just going to send all our money to MA so they can waste it on ‘free’ healthcare.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  176. Dustin provided a link showing a campaign manager using a donor list to ask for contributions after the 2008 campaign was over.

    I believe this is accurate, btw.

    And I object to that. I also object to the illegal immigrant hiring, which I think was clearly something Romney was aware of.

    But that’s all a sideshow, I will agree with even Romney’s defenders.

    What really matters is that Romney is a big government tax and spend liberal, willing to champion and promote the progressive agenda.

    This is not unfair of me to say. In fact, it’s basically what Romney has said about himself prior to needing the support of the GOP outside MA.

    Ideology is my real concern with Romney. Frankly, compared to what the federal government is like today, I would bet my life Romney and Perry and Huntsman and Gingrich would all be far, far, more ethical and clean.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  177. “No, by supporting conservatives in the legislature, Texans wish to reduce the size of government and the deficit and the tax burden and the federal funding of all manner of crap. But it’s not like we’re so stupid we’re just going to send all our money to MA so they can waste it on ‘free’ healthcare.”

    Dustin – Why do you think I’m making the argument I am. I got it from you after criticizing the reliance of Texas on federal money. No, you aren’t sending your money to Massachusetts, sorry. Texans are getting back almost every dollar they send to Washington while the most recent stats available showed Massachusetts getting back in the $0.80 range. The state is behind the curve of Texas so your argument does not hold water.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  178. “… I wouldn’t trade them for any other state government. However, I would loan them to the national government.”

    You should arrange a lease.
    People have more respect for something when there is a cost involved.

    AD-RtR/OS! (21429a)

  179. Funny I was under the assumption Liberal meant to believe in liberty.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  180. What really matters is that Romney is a big government tax and spend liberal, willing to champion and promote the progressive agenda.

    Says the fan of a guy who sells access to the Texas state treasury to the highest bidders.

    Colonel Haiku (601b7b)

  181. “Also, refuting Romneycare with ‘but look at Texas’ just doesn’t seem very reasonable.”

    Dustin – By making that comment, it shows you have not been following the conversation.

    By making it, it also exposes the hypocrisy of your defense of Perry’s use of available federal money to spend in Texas, while judging him solely based on “controllable” expenditures. The federal money Massachusetts gets for Romneycare would not even show up under Perry’s “controllable” expenditures, so why would you use it as a black mark against another state when you would not against Texas? Again, you cannot talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time just to defend your candidate.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  182. “Says the fan of a guy who sells access to the Texas state treasury to the highest bidders.”

    Colonel – In fairness, Perry did say in a debate he does not think it is a good idea at the federal level.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. Obama is good Dana Carvey?

    Michael Mooreon doesn’t pay his fair share which is why MTA is going under.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  184. It is a model for the states to be able to learn from

    This IS a completely true statement.

    And the lesson to be learned is:

    DON’T DO THIS YOU EPHING STUPID MORON!!!

    That’s certainly a good and worthwhile lesson.

    Strangely, The Great Big 0 did NOT attend class that day.

    Smock Puppet, SF/Sci-Fi Critic (2fb1c2)

  185. Hitler was a christian?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  186. Htiler was a Christian?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  187. No, Hitler was not a Xian. Now will you tell us why this is relevant? The problem with your nonsequiturs, Doh, is that it’s not always obvious what they do follow from. Who is claiming right now that Hitler was a Xian?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  188. In fairness, Perry did say in a debate he does not think it is a good idea at the federal level.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/13/2011 @ 7:25 pm

    ha. At least you’re funny.

    Anyway, I don’t like poorly sourced accusations, and I think you are far, far too biased in Romney’s favor and against Perry to be a good arbiter on this. I’m sure the same could be said of my view that Romney knowingly employed illegals with an excuse that doesn’t matter at all.

    Anyway, RE federal money, it is not a good long term plan for any state to rely on the feds for even a penny. Perry remains by far the most conservative candidate despite a very smart use of federal funds. Romney remains by far the most progressive partly because of his much different way of using federal money (via Ted Kennedy to fund his state takeover of economic decisions regarding health insurance).

    By all means disagree on this.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  189. Milhouse, I think sometimes Dohbiden is responding to things he saw on TV.

    Patience. He’s pretty funny sometimes, and I think his heart is in the right place. Just allow that when you read his name under a comment, it may not be relevant, so if it’s not clear what the context is, just let it be.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  190. Why do we need high speed rail?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  191. Anyways Romney is a flip-flopper.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  192. Milhouse, I think sometimes Dohbiden is responding to things he saw on TV.

    Or on some other web site, or in the paper, or something. As I said, it’s not always obvious what they follow from, so it’s hard to know what to say. Which is why I asked, who’s claiming right now that Hitler was a Xian? Because I do hear that claim from time to time (especially from Jews who aren’t quite clear on the distinction between “Xian” and “gentile”, let alone on the fact that there are different kinds of Xians), and have to rebut it.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  193. I heard it on the blaze website and it was from a jew hating muslim.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  194. Anyway, I don’t like poorly sourced accusations, and I think you are far, far too biased in Romney’s favor and against Perry to be a good arbiter on this.

    Dustin – Actually Perry did say this in criticizing Obama’s crony capitalism in one of the debates.

    I’ve refrained from posting most of the crap I’ve dug up on Perry because frankly I don’t think your thin skin could take it. This site doesn’t need the conflict and his supporters are as die hard as Obama’s were in 2008. They are unwilling to consider contrary opinions. You’ve demonstrated that many, many times.

    There are reasons for his consistent lack of popularity in Texas and I think it was delusional for him to make a run for the presidency.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. Hitler was a Wagnerian

    Icy (1a73e7)

  196. I thought he was Austrian?

    AD-RtR/OS! (21429a)

  197. Wagner was a pussy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  198. Just read the plain meaning of the words Romney wrote – all of them together. He states quite plainly that he’d like each state to decide how to solve health care on their own. If the Massachusetts model worked out, then other states might want to copy it or emulate it.

    That’s the plain meaning of what he has said, written and meant about this issue, the entire time. Only a dishonest hack can read “let’s totally do the Massachusetts plan nationally!” in those words, because they are no where to be found, not literally, not figuratively, and not in spirit.

    For those who cling to “We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country” – what is this referring to? RomneyCare? Nope, the subject in the preceding sentence: “It’s portable, affordable health insurance — something people have been talking about for decades.”

    It would help if people learned how to read and comprehend English, but I understand that hacks tend to be conveniently deficient when it comes to that…

    George (f66dff)

  199. I love it when drive-by hacks show up, calling people names.

    JD (8edcef)


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