Patterico's Pontifications

8/29/2011

Bill Keller’s Beclowning Achievement

Filed under: 2012 Election,General,Media Bias,Religion — Karl @ 10:43 am

[Posted by Karl]

Plenty of people — Ed Morrissey and Mollie Hemingway anomg them — have neatly dissected New York Times Executive Editor Bill Keller’s perfect storm of ignorance and bias when it comes to the religious beliefs of those running for the GOP presidential nominee.  Keller identified Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum as “all affiliated with fervid subsets of evangelical Christianity,” when Santorum is Catholic, Bachmann is Lutheran, and Perry is a Methodist.  Keller hauls out the boogeyman of “dominionism,” when none of his targets are dominionists, and so on.  The response (such as it is) to this criticism by Keller and the rest of the establishment media is nearly as telling as the original smears.

On Twitter, Keller had two responses to his critics.  First, Keller noted that he was not seeing any quarrel with the basic point that we should ask candidates about their faith. I certainly have no quarrel with that point.  In 2008, I wrote about Barack Obama’s decades-long membership in a church based on black liberation theology and his decades-long relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and criticized the establishment media for not treating Obama the way JFK or Mitt Romney were treated on faith issues.

However, this merely underscores the major criticism lodged against Keller, which was that the New York Times avoided giving Obama scrutiny on faith issues.  Keller’s second response was that the NYT was “late to Rev. Wright in ’08, but we got there, and did it well.”  This response is dishonest or delusional, possibly both.  When a political controversy erupts in March 2008 and the NYT does not give it proper news coverage until September 2008, getting there late is bad coverage.  Would Keller defend covering a hurricane six months late? Please.  Nor was the quality of the NYT coverage good, by the standards Keller now thinks should be applied, asking none of the sort of questions Keller now thinks should be asked.  Indeed, Keller’s response on this point is particularly embarrassing once you learn that the NYT actually covered Obama’s relationship with Rev. Wright in April 2007, reporting:

It is hard to imagine, though, how Mr. Obama can truly distance himself from Mr. Wright. The Christianity that Mr. Obama adopted at Trinity has infused not only his life, but also his campaign. He began his presidential announcement with the phrase “Giving all praise and honor to God,” a salutation common in the black church. He titled his second book, “The Audacity of Hope,” after one of Mr. Wright’s sermons, and often talks about biblical underdogs, the mutual interests of religious and secular America, and the centrality of faith in public life.

With hindsight, it is easy to imagine how Obama could distance himself: by relying on the establishment media generally, and the NYT in particular, to mostly look the other way at the crucial moment.

It is worth noting — as Ed Morrissey and Lisa Miller did — that the NYT’s Keller is hardly alone in falsely playing the “Crazy Christian” card.  Similarly erroneous, x-degrees-of-separation journalism has been committed by Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, NPR’s Fresh Air, Ryan Lizza at the New Yorker and Michelle Goldberg, a senior contributing writer for Newsweek/The Daily Beast.  From there, the bogus story gets treated as a serious topic of discussion at forums including the WaPo, CNN and USA Today.

Thus does the establishment media function the way Hillary Clinton once claimed the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy operated.  Thus does the establishment media again operate with the sort of “epistemic closure” that the Julian Sanchezes, Conor Friedersdorfs and Andrew Sullivans of the world are so quick to condemn in the conservative media (when they aren’t busy ignoring Sullivan’s obsession with the status of Sarah Palin’s uterus).  Ironically, Sullivan has been foaming at the mouth about “Christianism” for years.

Indeed, almost all of those soooo concerned about bogus memes circulating in a conservative echo chamber will never treat Rachel Maddow the way they treat Glenn Beck.  (Indeed, they won’t blink over the fact that a religious left activist — the Rev. Al Sharpton — now hosts a show on MSNBC.)  They will never view NewsBeast the way they view WorldNetDaily.  They will never compare Bill Keller to Sean Hannity — and rightly so.  After all, Hannity correctly identified the theology of Obama’s longtime church and interviewed Rev. Wright.  Hannity committed more actual journalism on this subject than Keller did.  More self-aware lefties in the media, like TNR’s Jonathan Chait, should take note that this is another example of the magical thinking of liberals.

–Karl

349 Responses to “Bill Keller’s Beclowning Achievement”

  1. It’s quite nice that the left is straining so hard in a way that makes Rev Wright a renewed and valid topic.

    Equally nice is the credibility destroying idea that Methodists are fire breathing extremists. We’re talking about a ton of independent voters now.

    Though more and more I think to be a hack for the left, one must stop thinking clearly about the big picture. Keller is not doing his side any favors.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  2. We still don’t know if Obama was in the pews when Wright spewed his various anti-American gibberish, like when Wright after 9/11 talked about America’s chickens coming home to roost. And we don’t know such things because the liberal MSM never asked the question of Obama. Much like the LA Times won’t even release the tape they have of Obama speaking at Rashid Khalidi’s going away party. Nor why they never asked him about Ayers, who in the NY Times of September 11th, 2001 was openly bragging about bombing the Pentagon and trying to bomb Fort Dix. Or how college student Obama traveled financially to Pakistan after the Zia coup, and what passport he used.

    I have no problem with background questions being asked of anyone running for president. But the Times and their ilk were never so incurious as when The One came on the scene.

    Santorum has no shot. But anyone who has followed him for more than 5 minutes knows he is a devout Catholic. It could be Keller is incurious even as to things commonly known.

    Bugg (ea1809)

  3. “…Sullivan has been foaming at the mouth about “Christianism” for years…”

    He has this fantasy that he will replace Christopher Hitchens.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  4. BHO “is affiliated with fervid subsets of radical Marxism”.

    There. FTFY!

    Icy Texan (a7caff)

  5. …sort of “epistemic closure” that the Julian Sanchezes, Conor Friedersdorfs and Andrew Sullivans of the world are so quick to condemn in the conservative media

    Karl are you saying that Sullivan is part of the conservative media? He ain’t IMHO.

    Ipso Fatso (74cbec)

  6. Ipso,

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying establishment clingers-on are quick to condemn examples they see in the conservative media.

    Karl (f07e38)

  7. it’s hard to feel sorry for Perry what with his monster truck prayer rally and all the silly pledges he’s signed

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  8. you have to figure that to some extent Perry wanted to cultivate this sort of criticism because of the effect it would have on R primary voters

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  9. …and how rediculous it makes the Left look when observed by rational voters; you know, the kind that live in “fly-over country”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  10. feets!

    I think it’s fair to hold Perry responsible for his associations, giving them the weight warranted by how long or intimate they may be. The point is that the MSM is giving them far greater weight than they seem to warrant, falsely suggesting Perry is himself a dominionist, after having largely dismissed a much more serious connection in Obama’s past.

    Karl (f07e38)

  11. It is just and right and appropriate to question one, and racist to question the other.

    JD (318f81)

  12. the miserable ferret-woman on National Soros Radio went to town on Perry and his putative dominionism the other day

    transcript

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  13. feets!

    I already linked that segment in the main post. Note that our tax dollars went to a segment featuring an activist, rather than a theologian, clergy or minister, and with essentially no balance at all. A very unlovely example of closure.

    Karl (f07e38)

  14. oops sorry

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  15. Racists

    JD (318f81)

  16. I wasn’t aware that Gov. Perry had attended a Dominionist church for 20 years.

    Icy Texan (a7caff)

  17. Is Perry a Warlock?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. This is the same meme spurtycvs has been pushing, thanks to MMfA, thinkregress, rawstory, etal

    JD (318f81)

  19. Keller really shows us his bigotry and not only doesn’t apologize for his hate speech, he doubles down on it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  20. Well, SPQR, he is “better” than the rest of us, after all.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  21. feets!

    Totally OK; alllowed me to expand a bit on the NPR piece, whci was truly egregious.

    Karl (f07e38)

  22. it’s hard to feel sorry for Perry what with his monster truck prayer rally and all the silly pledges he’s signed

    Um, what exactly is wrong with monster truck prayer rallies? To me this sounds like exactly the snobbery of the Bill Kellers of the world, who think their culture and peculiar tastes are better than those of Flyover Country. I mean, maybe there’s something about these things that I don’t know, some real reason why they are proper objects of criticism and/or mockery; if so, please enlighten me. But from my unenlightened perspective it seems to me that a mass rally, whether for the purpose of prayer or racing monster trucks, is of precisely the same cultural value as an rock concert or a football game or a political convention. I see no reason why a political candidate would not want to participate, or is opening himself to criticism by doing so.

    And which silly pledges are you talking about, exactly? Please specify, and explain if necesary why you think they’re silly.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  23. Monster trucks are particularly helpful in climbing the steps of City Hall.
    Plus, they can carry quite a few people with all of their “farm implements”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  24. I wish I could write posts like this. I could if I had your analytical skills and the patience to use them so effectively.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  25. Well, DRJ, once you get rid of the modesty-gene, it should be simple.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  26. “it’s hard to feel sorry for Perry what with his monster truck prayer rally”

    Mr. Feets – Would Mr. Perry’s monster truck prayer rally have been better if they sliced up some fetuses on the hood of a truck?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  27. Mr. Feets – Next time you come for a visit we’ll sneak you across the Cheese Curtain for a Fish Boil and some cheese curds.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  28. Comment by daleyrocks — 8/29/2011 @ 1:50 pm

    Some scantily-clad “virgins” as “fender covers” would be nice.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  29. AD – Tough item to find.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  30. hf:

    it’s hard to feel sorry for Perry what with his monster truck prayer rally and all the silly pledges he’s signed.

    Obama made several pledges that helped him get elected. Here are some he didn’t keep:

    1. Pledge to take public campaign funds.

    2. Pledge to close Guantanamo.

    3. Pledge to make fossil fuel companies pay windfall profits taxes.

    4. Pledge to ban/limit lobbyists in his Administration.

    5. Pledge to recognize the Armenian genocide.

    6. Pledge to allow 5 days for the public to review and comment before signing bills.

    As for monster truck rallies and similar pursuits, Obama wouldn’t pander to those fans, would he?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  31. Thanks, AD, but I can’t write posts like this. I’m pretty good at current events and knowing what people want to talk about, but I’m not as good as Karl at fitting events into the big picture.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  32. Wow, DRJ, I somehow had missed the Obama Nascar outreach.

    I knew before clicking it would involve Hendrick. I learned about Rick Hendrick when studying his case of fraud. Rick confessed and then Clinton commuted or pardoned Rick because he was dying of leukemia. He had a nice recovery. Hendrick’s cars often have sponsorship from the AARP, and Rick gave the Clinton library millions of dollars, which I think was payment for getting out of the penalty for his crimes.

    Amazes me how many patriotic Americans root for that team’s cars. But a lot of people are much better than I am at ignoring politics, which is probably not such a bad trait on their part.

    Nice link of broken pledges as well.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  33. I wish I could write posts like this. I could if I had your analytical skills and the patience to use them so effectively.

    Comment by DRJ — 8/29/2011 @ 1:33 pm

    ** cough ** ** cough ** horsemanure ** cough ** ** cough **

    Far be it from me to denigrate my good friend Karl, DRJ, but your posts were every bit his equal.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  34. DRJ,

    Thanks. And of course, the pledges just proved you still got it.

    Karl (f07e38)

  35. “the magical thinking of liberals.” Wrong term. This is becoming a bad habit.

    You are meaning to say “the delusional thinking of liberals.” There IS such a thing as “magical thinking,” and it is not necessarily a negative thing, so please don’t misuse the term on the delusional.

    ST Triani (d45057)

  36. Keller: dishonest and delusional. But then again, I repeat myself.

    Comanche Voter (0e06a9)

  37. Funny you should mention that Patterico is preparing an extensive post on The New York Time’s body slam and scalpel response to Rep. Issa’s demand for a retraction.
    I eagerly await.

    Larry Reilly (21fe7c)

  38. Thank you for the dishonest JournoLista perspective, Mary.

    JD (318f81)

  39. Larry, the NYT was caught red handing lying. There’s no way around it, and if you’re defending them that says a lot about you. Nothing most of us didn’t already figure out a long time ago, but still, all that needs to be said.

    If Fox News did something like that to Sherrod, you’d have a good reason to be upset. Note that they didn’t.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  40. Comment by Larry Reilly — 8/29/2011 @ 2:55 pm

    I don’t know what Patterico is working on, but feel free to write an extensive post of your own. I am certain a post from you would be consistent with your demonstrated standards of writing and fact-checking. I eagerly await.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  41. Funny, I didn’t know that dishonestly walking back a story was a “body slam”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  42. Mawy Reilly is just pimping the twoofout/thinkregress Lee Fang Silliness, which ignores the 3 corrections it has already issued.

    JD (318f81)

  43. I just want him to pledge about the spendings and the regulatings and the economy and such.

    It may be that I haven’t been clear and specific enough for him to understand how best to pander to me, and if that’s the case I apologize.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  44. Is the journalistically curious and erudite Mr. Keller himself known to be affiliated with any specific church or religion?

    elissa (819213)

  45. Is the journalistically curious and erudite Mr. Keller himself known to be affiliated with any specific church or religion?

    He refers to himself as a “collapsed Catholic“.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  46. I just want him to pledge about the spendings and the regulatings and the economy and such.

    It may be that I haven’t been clear and specific enough for him to understand how best to pander to me, and if that’s the case I apologize.

    Comment by happyfeet — 8/29/2011 @ 3:20 pm

    Same here.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  47. Funny, I didn’t know that dishonestly walking back a story was a “body slam”.

    Comment by SPQR — 8/29/2011 @ 3:04 pm

    It says a lot that Larry thinks body slamming Republicans is the NYT’s proper function. Or that it should have anything but profuse apologies when caught making stuff up.

    No, all the NYT needs to do when caught lying is go on the warpath again. Punch back twice as hard.

    Keller knows his place. The NYT has a little niche now. They are to trash the USA, the US military, and Republicans. They can be caught lying and routinely are, but at this point they can hold onto their remaining readership by consistently attacking those three concepts.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  48. I just want him to pledge about the spendings and the regulatings and the economy and such.

    That would be nice, but what has it got to do with these pledges he has made? What are they, and why do you think they’re silly? Is everything not to do with the economy silly by definition?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  49. happyfeet,

    My first priority is the economy and jobs, too, but we can’t make that the exclusive criteria for every voter. Different issues matter to different people.

    In addition, not to pick on Ron Paul but I generally think his views on the economy and jobs are reasonable. However, his foreign policy (especially his views on 9/11) don’t appeal to me at all. Thus, Paul is a good example of why I think we need to know how all candidates view many issues.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  50. when your little country is in an economic death spiral then yes non-economic pledgings are silly

    should, god-willing, Mr. Governor Perry be successful in his endeavor to become our president, it will not matter what inane social con pledgings he makes – he will not have won a mandate for anything but to salvage some semblance of an economic future for our sad blighted little nation

    simple as that

    and I think he knows that… it boggles the mind to think he would decide to become the Jesus president while our little country plummeted into an abyss of debt and fail.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  51. If I were a values voter, hf, I might argue that we’re already in an abyss of debt and unemployment. Maybe this is the best time to care about religion.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  52. DRJ I think it’s imperative that a mandate be handed to Mr. Perry, because our little country is in a dire pickle

    this cannot be overstated

    the Tea Party issues of debt and spending are where a consensus is found … I think if Mr. Perry strays away from these areas of consensus he will squander much goodwill

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  53. Rome, it is burning

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  54. Democrats don’t mind their leaders being Christian because they understand they don’t really mean it. Hypocrisy is much easier for them to accept than religion.

    However, if a man is really sincere in his faith would you not expect him to invoke or call on God in a time of crisis or peril? I would not be comfortable if he said that only prayer was needed and did not take those measures possible to help, but as far as faith is concerned I am much happier with people who are honest about it and don’t see it as political posturing, even though I don’t share that faith.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  55. why can’t he call on God using his hub-cap stealin’ voice?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  56. Perhaps he is not ashamed of his faith and sees nothing to hide.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  57. That would be nice, but what has it got to do with these pledges he has made? What are they, and why do you think they’re silly? Is everything not to do with the economy silly by definition?

    Hi Milhouse. I think the “we teach it both ways” thing he said to that schoolkid about evolution / “intelligent design” was one of the most embarrassing silly things that this Republican has seen in terms of social conservatism.

    But no, not every non-economic thing is silly “by default.” Good point.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  58. ________________________________________________

    Keller’s second response was that the NYT was “late to Rev. Wright in ’08, but we got there, and did it well.” This response is dishonest or delusional, possibly both.

    I bet a million bucks that Keller perceives Jeremiah Wright and Obama’s embrace of his former “Goddamn America” pastor (until controversy ensued) as somehow not too symptomatic of stridency and polarization in today’s era. As certainly far less strident or polarizing than, say, Fox News and Rupert Murdoch. After all, look at how Keller (per below) ludicrously and nonsensically conflates his workplace with that of a major socio-political disaster — genocide, no less — in Africa.

    The origins of such delusions?

    Keller was born in 1949, meaning that he today is 62 years old. For anyone to have gone through most of his or her lifetime and still remain tied to a nonsensical leftist way of thinking is a sign of intrinsic basic immaturity. It’s like a person born with dyslexia or epilepsy.

    Of course, I’m assuming Keller wasn’t a conservative or even true centrist in his earlier years. But if he were, then his current condition would be a sign of his not only not evolving during his lifetime, but his actually regressing.


    “Saving the New York Times now ranks with saving Darfur as a high-minded cause.”
    — Bill Keller, executive editor of the NY Times, April 2, 2009

    Politico.com, February 2011:

    Bill Keller and Dean Baquet, the New York Times’s executive editor and Washington bureau chief, were interviewed at the National Press Club Monday night by Marvin Kalb. When Kalb asked what Keller thought of Rupert Murdoch…Keller impishly replied “Who?” before saying that he thought Murdoch’s greatest impact in the United States comes through Fox News.

    [Bill Keller:] “I think the effect of Fox News on American public life has been to create a level of cynicism about the news in general. It has contributed to the sense that they are all just out there with a political agenda, but Fox is just more overt about it. And I think that’s unhealthy.

    We have had a lot of talk since the Gabby Giffords attempted murder about civility in our national discourse, and I make no connection between the guy who shot those people in Tucson and the national discourse. But it is true that the national discourse is more polarized and strident than it has been in the past, and to some extent, I would lay that at the feet of Rupert Murdoch.

    ^ Keller has the gall to believe his part of the media is somehow more impartial than, and therefore not as “unhealthy” as, a small sector of the MSM that leans right?! Bill, you’re so two-faced your head must be constantly spinning around.

    Mark (411533)

  59. In addition, not to pick on Ron Paul but I generally think his views on the economy and jobs are reasonable. However, his foreign policy (especially his views on 9/11) don’t appeal to me at all. Thus, Paul is a good example of why I think we need to know how all candidates view many issues.

    Good example. If on 10-Sep-2001 you had told me that Ron Paul would one day mount a serious presidential campaign, and that I would not be supporting him, I’d have called you crazy. I could not have imagined a better candidate for president than Paul. And I still think if he became president he’d turn the USA into a paradise — ten minutes before the Islamists blew it up. If we had a system with two “presidents” — call one a prime minister — where one took care of foreign policy and defense and the other took care of domestic policy, I’d still support Paul for the domestic job. I just don’t trust him with our safety.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  60. Mr. Feets – Needs are urgent and it appears that Gov. Mr. Fat Mittens Get Off The Beach will not be joing the fray, so what this country could use is a little non-feckless leadership for a change which Mr. Gov. Former Democrat Idiot Good Hair seems to promise even if some people seem somewhat offput by a little godbothering.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. Very nice, Daley. I see what you did there. Heh.

    felipe (2ec14c)

  62. daleyrocks,

    Heh, indeed. Talking to hf in his own lingo? You do it well.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  63. I think the “we teach it both ways” thing he said to that schoolkid about evolution / “intelligent design” was one of the most embarrassing silly things that this Republican has seen in terms of social conservatism.

    Really? What’s wrong with it? For that matter, why are so many people so obsessed with this whole topic? Who cares what schools teach about evolution/creation? What conceivable difference does it make? And especially, what conceivable difference does it make what a presidential candidate thinks about it, considering that the president has no say on the question? For the record, a clear majority of presidents to date have been creationists; has that in any way affected their performance in office?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  64. Off topic-But a judge appointed by bush 41 blocked alabama’s illegal immigration law from taking effect………..no surprise there.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  65. Hmmm…

    “….Hi Milhouse. I think the “we teach it both ways” thing he said to that schoolkid about evolution / “intelligent design” was one of the most embarrassing silly things that this Republican has seen in terms of social conservatism….”

    Actually, I would like to see people on both sides of the aisle actually define evolution. Whenever I ask this question, I hear about politics, not science. The folks on the Left who sneer at the Right sure don’t define it very well to a person who is, well, a biologist. Neither side is talking about science at all.

    It’s sort of like people on both sides carrying on about AGW…and yet don’t know a darned thing (the politicians, certainly) about climate modeling, etc.

    Here is an example. I would love to see every major politician who prattles on about climate change get this “gotcha” question, with no warning or prep:

    What is the percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere currently? What was it 500 years ago? 5,000 years ago? Etc.

    And yet people who can’t come anywhere near to the first question will call other people “ignorant.” Please.

    Politics, as usual. Not science. But both sides beat each other up. The Republicans “hate” science, when I would dearly love to see every Democratic voter take a simple scientific literacy test.

    Politics.

    But then, the same can be said for all kinds of topics and politicians.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  66. what this country could use is a little non-feckless leadership for a change which Mr. Gov. Former Democrat Idiot Good Hair seems to promise even if some people seem somewhat offput by a little godbothering.

    What this country could really use is the non-feckless leadership of Mrs Gov. Fight Like A Girl, what is all about the economies and the transparency and cleanliness in government (which is next to godliness but not in a godbothering way), and what believes in evolution and in not imposing her so-con views on other peoples.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  67. hmmmph

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  68. Simon Jester,

    Just curious about your opinion: Is it stupid to believe in evolution and creationism?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  69. Simon,

    I’m not trying to put you on the spot. Feel free not to answer or to answer in general terms, instead of your opinion.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  70. It is good that some people can make the effort and energy to document these things, because with my ADDishness, if you ask me who in the media is saying stupid things about religious faith I would simply quote, “Round up the usual suspects”.

    but as far as faith is concerned I am much happier with people who are honest about it and don’t see it as political posturing, even though I don’t share that faith. – Comment by Machinist
    There you go, being intellectually honest and logical again, keep it up and they’ll be writing about you next. ;-)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  71. Heh! No danger. Those who know me know I will never be a candidate.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  72. Machinist, just don’t ever find yourslf in an impromptu political interview like Joe the Plumber…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  73. O/T, but relevant to our condition…
    John Steele Gordon in an OpEd on the National Debt in today’s WSJ brought to light some interesting numbers:
    1946, in the aftermath of WW-2, the National Debt was $269B, or 129.98% of GDP;
    In 1960, the debt had increased by $17B to $286B – 58% of GDP.
    Debt/GDP reached 68.91% in 1994 – and then came Newt:
    In the next six years, debt/GDP was reduced to 57.3% – less than it had been in 1960!

    As many have said: We don’t have a revenue problem (for with an expanding economy there will always be plenty of revenue), we have a spending problem.

    BTW, a reminder, that $17B of increased debt from ’46 to ’60, paid for the Marshall Plan, Korea, the Strategic Air Command (bombers over battleships), the start of our missile program, and the Interstate Highway System (well, a start – and Yes, I know it was in large part paid for with a user fee: the gas tax).

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (69a267)

  74. I like evolution and also creationism but for school my favorite is evolution and for church creationism is my favorite. You don’t mix and match them it’s not like garanimals or chex mix.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  75. You betcha Milhouse,

    ian cormac (4e0dda)

  76. You don’t mix and match them it’s not like garanimals or chex mix.

    Why not? Are they like coke and mentos? Will they explode if you mix them? Or is it just like white with fish and red with meat, where if you mix them it’s no big deal, except for Chuck’s son with gout, who should really stick to white and shouldn’t be eating meat anyway.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  77. happyfeet,

    It’s not like Texas schools are telling kids that God created them. They are noting there is a scientific question of the true origin of life, and one explanation, which they are not endorsing, is the religious one.

    Frankly, one is not educated without being aware of religion at that level.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  78. This is not a dig at anyone who posts here regularly and honestly.

    Most Americans understand the difference between government and religion. Every candidate in the race for President understands this.

    Not a single one of them has any intention of turning America into a Christian theocracy. That goes against everything that makes Americans, Americans. Besides, they couldn’t if they wanted to.

    All of this media crap is just another one of its diversions to protect the status quo. It’s like clockwork.

    I want a candidate who will stop spending. Of course, no President can do that alone, but I want one who will make the effort.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  79. Mawy writing an extensive post?

    How many ad homs can one man conjure for one topic?

    Icy Texan (a7caff)

  80. exploiting religion for to gain political power is crass and more than a little trashy

    also it’s a boring time suck

    that said, most politicians in America are trashy corrupt whores whether they’re exploiting religion or not, so what’s a little pikachu to do I ask you

    I’m a watch misfits on hulu I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  81. exploiting religion for to gain political power is crass and more than a little trashy

    As far as the evolution and creationism issue goes, the person exploiting religion was a lefty ambushing Perry to answer an irrelevant question via her child.

    As far as Perry taking part in religious observances, I am not even paying attention to that. So long as there’s nothing dishonest, I see no reason to worry about it. He’s got a record and some sort of agenda, and we should focus on that instead.

    Politics are what they are. Politicians have to show you they have a spouse and children and are safe and normal and wholesome. Don’t blame them for playing the game. Perry isn’t making a huge deal out of religion. He’s making a huge deal out of jobs, spending, and quasi-treasonous currency creation.

    Bachmann’s also been pretty good on this issue. Take your pick.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  82. Happyfeet should know about crass and a little more trashy.

    He’s an expert on it.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  83. oh. I was talking about the monster truck prayer rally again not the creationism thing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  84. Mad because Rick Perry isn’t serenading you.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  85. Perry isn’t making a huge deal out of religion. He’s making a huge deal out of jobs, spending, and quasi-treasonous currency creation.

    that’s not even true though – while our little country circles the toilet of debt and fail Rick wants to amend our constitution not once but twice for white trash monster truck Jesus

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  86. he signed pledges dontcha know

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  87. oh. I was talking about the monster truck prayer rally again not the creationism thing

    Comment by happyfeet —

    I know. I’m just making the general point that religion won’t be divorced from politics. It’s going to be injected. So Perry made a mild prayer thing that isn’t important, and some lefty kook ambushed him with religion.

    Sure, you may like it if, somehow, churches actually contain religion like a terrarium, but they won’t. It’s just too central to the identities of a lot of folks.

    I see why you’d find the topic amusing, because the humor potential of a monster truck prayer event seems pretty substantial, and I’d see why you’d be bored to tears by religious shows because politicians are generally cynical rather than Christ-like.

    I don’t know what solution you’ve got in mind, so I offered mine. Don’t pay attention to it unless there’s something particularly dishonest or abhorrent (like Rev Wright, I guess).

    There’s not going to be a 2012 GOP nominee who doesn’t show some Christianity. No use fighting it. I happen to be very similar to Perry religiously, and there’s really nothing to be worried about there. Be glad he’s fiscally on the right track.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  88. that’s not even true though – while our little country circles the toilet of debt and fail Rick wants to amend our constitution not once but twice for white trash monster truck Jesus

    Comment by happyfeet

    Ohhhhh,

    You got me there. That’s something I disagree with him on. I loved it when he was the libertarian-lite conservative who just wanted the states to do their thing, and find his flip flop to amending the constitution to be too cute by half and totally stupid.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  89. Everyone knows Perry is a Methodist, right?

    The United Methodists are not exactly a hot bed of radicalism.

    I mean, he’s not a Southern Baptist. If I knew how to do a winky face, I would do it here.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  90. Mr. Dustin I agree that a certain inevitability attends but it’s nevertheless all to the good to assert that there is such a thing as a quiet personal faith what is defiantly unevangelical, and to further assert that there’s no reason that America’s president not be possessed of such a faith.

    But yeah I think for all his greasy religious twaddle Mr. Perry will do right by the economy. I will happily vote for him, just not super duper happily.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  91. “;” + “)” = ;)

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  92. happy, did you ever stop to think that “greasy, religious twaddle,” might be sincere belief? And professing said belief may be a sincere part of the person?

    It does happen to people who are not politicians. It could happen to people who are.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  93. George Washington was a very religious man whose faith was an inseparable part of his philosophy and values, and he certainly did not hide this or attempt to keep it silent in his political activities. It did not stop him from from setting the benchmark standards for honor and virtue that all Presidents have tried to live up to or at least pretend to live up to ever since. Nor did he try to set up a religious dictatorship.

    Of all the things I fear in politicians, honest religious faith is just not one of them.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  94. I will happily vote for him, just not super duper happily.

    I have a bit of a concern that he will be a bit like Bush. I know he won’t be Bush’s fourth term or anything. The establishment greatly fears Perry because he has gotten so far without them. Perry’s best shot at reelection would be to actually preside over reform and see the Tea Party fight to defend him.

    I think you and I both got our hopes shot way, way, way up by the initial appearance he was righteous on states rights with regard to social issues. He was going to let Cali and NY do their own thing while he focused on cutting spending instead of social stuff.

    Then he made the constitutional amendment points, and I think that part was clearly playing politics. It’s disappointing, and you have to cynically calculate whether he meant his initial statement or the latter. My guess is he does sincerely believe in states rights, but is not willing to take that particular fight on.

    It’s a compromise on core principles, much as I’ve bashed Romney over (only far less egregious).

    I think Perry is still a very good nominee who will do a great job (better than Bush 41 or 43).

    I will happily vote for him, just not super duper happily.

    Right. The key is to get the happyfeets and the palinistas under one tent, which will likely mean everyone is compromising a bit.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  95. Thanks, Machinist. ;)

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  96. I think if you did a boolean diagram of Rick Perry and sincere it would look like this:

    O O

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  97. Ven

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  98. He has a record Mr. Dustin. I’m pretty comfortable with him.

    Also me I hearted the trans-texas corridor idea.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  99. Nevermind, I stand corrected as usual.

    Machinist’s comments are worth considering, Happyfeet. We could do a hell of a lot worse than a sincere Christian.

    I don’t see why you’d be so sure Rick Perry is insincere. I have long had a gut instinct that he is too coiffed and pretty to be a normal thinking man, since I can’t stand politicians like Romney and Edwards.

    I think some of that is just bigotry on my part.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  100. yes venn but I think you can say it both ways cause of you’re diagramming the boolean operation of Rick AND sincere

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  101. Also me I hearted the trans-texas corridor idea.

    Comment by happyfeet

    You sure know how to kick those hornet nests!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  102. I think you can say it both ways

    Yeah, that’s what I stand corrected on.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  103. That may be true, happy, and you are welcome to your opinion. I have some misgivings about Perry, also. But his religious beliefs are pretty far down on the list.

    The reason is simple: They don’t matter.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  104. Mr. Dustin more what I think is if you were to try and make a selling point of Rick’s sincerity it would fail. Rick Perry the man is not what people are gonna pull the lever for. Maybe in 2016. But not this go round. What Mr. Perry needs to sell is the philosophy and practice of the economic precepts what guide his thinking.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  105. I can agree on that, happy.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  106. Rick Perry the man is not what people are gonna pull the lever for.

    The election is all about Obama.

    I’m sure a lot of voters will be faced with a choice between this demonized caricature of a weird racist flat earther vs 4 more years of seeing their loved ones struggle to feed their families.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  107. yay consensus! I feel very good about Mr. Perry’s prospects

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  108. exploiting religion for to gain political power is crass and more than a little trashy

    What makes you think Perry has done that? It seems to me he’s done the opposite: exploit his position as governor (i.e. use the bully pulpit it provides him) in order for to promote religion. Which is a perfectly correct thing to do. When a country is in crisis, its leaders should pray. How do you think anyone is ever going to solve our economic problems without some help from Above?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  109. Doesn’t his record speak to that?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  110. #110 was in response to #105. I think and type slooooowwwwlllly.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  111. BTW, Feets, God made the whole world, not just the insides of churches. This country which you love so much was founded by people who called on God at every opportunity, and who believed that the country’s survival depends on God’s help, which we must pray for whenever it’s needed. Objecting to public prayer led by our governors and presidents, and insisting that prayer should be left to the churches, is un-American.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  112. I like pistachios and I have no idea what Perry’s prospects are.

    I do know that he has made questionable decisions as governor, but I also know he’s not, well, Obama, who seems intent on actually implementing policies and laws intended to make the U.S. the new Greece.

    I don’t know why Obama wants to do that, but I will vote for someone who wants to put a stop to it.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  113. it would be perfectly acceptable for him to pray by himself or at church like a normal person I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  114. like without a tv camera present

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  115. Every president, even this one, goes to the National Prayer Breakfast every year and prays in front of TV cameras. If they had TV cameras in George Washington’s day he would have prayed in front of them.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  116. Sincerity is in the vicinity of honesty, so if a person is not sincere it is hard to know when they are honest. Of course, the cynical would say they all lie, just don’t pick a politician that is pathological about it.

    If one does a Boolean search or a Venn diagram of Machinist and Dustin, you find that someone who professes faith but says it doesn’t matter is like John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi who try to claim they know more about what it means to be Catholic than the Pope. They may believe what they believe, and they can say they are Catholic if they like, but they don’t get to tell the Pope what the teaching of the Catholic Church is.

    For a person to say they believe in Jesus but it will not affect their profession (in this case being an elected official) is like a person saying they are a pilot but refuses to get in a plane out of fear it will crash. So if you think that people who believe in the Jesus of the Bible are crazy or stupid then say so and vote accordingly. That will be one more way American Society looks like Europe.

    Of course, when people think you can just keep spending money whether you have it or not, and can take more and more of it from people whether they have it to give or not, then logical thinking and reasonable cause and effect are not winning the day.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  117. Well, MD, it’s not that I think faith doesn’t matter. I just don’t have the ability to judge the faith of politicians. I know many of them are indeed being cynical. I also know that if they aren’t they surely are calling for help from God all the time, and relying on their religion for guidance in a political world that is tough for the honest.

    I try not to evaluate candidates for religion because the information I get from them about their religion can’t be relied on. I’d rather focus on their agenda’s sensibility and their record.

    It’s a mistake for me to suggest religion is unimportant, but I do treat it that way politically unless something severe comes up.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  118. I would not mind Perry being more conservative but I hope the things I am less comfortable make him more acceptable to a wider base and therefore more electable. He does deserve much credit during his historically long run as Governor for keeping Texas a job making powerhouse when the nations economy has been collapsing under the assault of the Democrats. We have a balanced budget with a rainy day fund and no income tax, and Texas has made enough jobs to hold it’s unemployment rate below the nations even after absorbing millions of refugees fleeing the bankrupt and ruined blue states like CA and NY. He certainly has done something right, even if it was just getting out of the way.

    I also like a President that packs a gun and shoots coyotes that attack his pets. Contrast that to Carter and the killer rabbit. ;)

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  119. Feets- back in the day elected officials often prayed in church while in the Capital building at the same time, and the 10 Commandments did not get in the Supreme Court building because of the work of a graffiti vandal (although that might work as a defense if the ACLU tries to get it removed…)

    But yes, praying in public for the sake of praying in public to be seen by people is not a good idea, even Jesus agrees with you there, feets. But to not pray in public because you don’t want people to see that you believe in praying to God was not endorsed by Daniel, Jesus, Peter, or Paul.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  120. David and Solomon prayed in public. At monster chariot rallies, even.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  121. Reagan was a man of faith who had no problem going to his knees to ask guidance, wisdom and help when dealing with difficult problems. I doubt someone goes to that trouble if they plan to subjugate honor or the good of the Country to political expediency or personal greed anyway.

    I don’t think Perry is Reagan but I disagree that all politicians are insincere about their faith.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  122. Obama has no problem going to his knees……………….for a BJ.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  123. During the Constitutional Convention, Washington would lead the others in prayer when passions boiled over and threatened to derail the discussions. We perhaps owe our great Constitution to his willingness to prey in public.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  124. happy, Jesus did say not to proclaim your faith as, for want of a better word, a jerk, but He also said to spread the Good News throughout the world. It’s a fine line. Doing is better than proclaiming is how I interpret it.

    But, now do you answer when doing so is interpreted as being intolerant, crazy or slow? Especially, when Jesus never said be intolerant, crazy or slow?

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  125. It’s a mistake for me to suggest religion is unimportant, but I do treat it that way politically unless something severe comes up.
    Comment by Dustin

    Dustin, I was referring to your comments that maybe Perry is sincere, rather than feets assuming/claiming he was insincere.

    All things said and done by a politician are subject to scrutiny. I first reject a candidate who lies to my face about something I know about (like claims that Dems were bothered by Bush’s deficit spending). Then I push aside those who make a habit out of saying certain things in one setting, and something else in another (like those “bitter clingers” in San Fran). And one always wants to be on the lookout for when the real thought process comes slipping through (“spread [your] money around”).

    And hopefully there will be at least one candidate left.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  126. not being rude for reals I have to watch misfits plus my sleeping pills are kicking in

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  127. I just believe in taking people at their word, unless and until they give me reason to doubt them. Perhaps I’m just funny that way.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  128. I would also point out that I have never had politicians of faith try to force their religious beliefs on me though liberals openly try to force their anti-Christian beliefs on us all the time and without shame.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  129. I doubt someone goes to that trouble if they plan to subjugate honor or the good of the Country to political expediency or personal greed anyway.

    Some do and some don’t. There are great folks out there, some even in politics, and there are some that would pretend. Reagan and Bush 43 had a quality that makes it impossible for me to believe they were pretending.

    I don’t mean to disrespect Perry when I say I haven’t seen that in him. I haven’t been looking for it, and I admitted I have a visceral issue.

    I’m not going to award a politician points for prayer or religion. I might deduct support on religious grounds, but awarding them is something I’m just not going to do.

    It’s my cynicism, but also the fact is all the GOP candidates are going to be saying they have convictions. Aside from some of Romney’s flip flops, they are mostly equally reasonable.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  130. I have never had politicians of faith try to force their religious beliefs on me

    I think Happyfeet was speaking to this aspect when he mentioned Perry’s support of some constitutional amendments.

    I personally liked Perry’s earlier view that the states should got their various directions. Whatever constitutional amendments needed to make that more possible would be as far as I’d want to go.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  131. Comment by MD in Philly — 8/29/2011 @ 8:45 pm

    That’s also how I think. And frankly, when Perry’s real philosophy slips through, I like it.

    Insofar as he’s insincere, I think it’s the amendments I mentioned to Machinist in my prior comment. I think his consistent philosophy is that he doesn’t believe in imposing on me, and also that he’s interested in staying out of our way so that prosperity might return.

    Anyway, some of your comment did impact my reasoning, even though that wasn’t your intention. I wish I could be less cynical.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  132. Of course, all of my posts have nothing to do with Bill Keller’s misunderstanding of the Christian faith.

    If I may be so bold, I would say that Keller was probably the product of a Christian household that abandoned the faith for a secular philosophy that incorporated the do-good tenets of Christianity without understanding the the basis for the faith.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  133. -Comment by Dustin — 8/29/2011 @ 8:48 pm-

    Of course you are right Sir. Many make show of faith, like Clinton’s Bible with the oversized cover print for the cameras. I was thinking of people like Reagan who would go to their knees in the Oval Office, not a show for the public. Can you imagine Obama kneeling in the Whitehouse and asking God for wisdom and strength of character? I can’t, not in private.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  134. my sleeping pills are kicking in

    And my computer clock tells me it’s pumpkin time soon, and I type really slow trying to use leaves and vines
    yes, being both generous-hearted and uncynical yet being sharp and shrewd to catch those who need catching is difficult, something about srpents and doves (oops, tendrilss)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  135. Using his newspaper’s pages Keller’s like a big ol’ national thread jacker. Keller doesn’t like it when we talk about the serious issues that are out there everywhere (all the joblessness and depression and foreclosures and fast and furious and bad Obama polls) so with a sleight of hand and a handy printing press he has us talking about religion instead of Bumble being a really bad and scary president. See how that works? We’re going to have to watch Bill Keller and his newspaper like a hawk, I think.

    elissa (819213)

  136. Amen, elissa. ;). See I learn a few things on occasion.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  137. If I may be so bold, I would say that Keller was probably the product of a Christian household that abandoned the faith for a secular philosophy that incorporated the do-good tenets of Christianity without understanding the the basis for the faith.

    On the contrary, at least according to his own account it was a very Catholic household. He’s the one who abandoned his parents’ faith.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  138. Happyfeet:

    Then he made the constitutional amendment points, and I think that part was clearly playing politics.

    and Dustin:

    I think Happyfeet was speaking to this aspect when he mentioned Perry’s support of some constitutional amendments.

    I personally liked Perry’s earlier view that the states should got their various directions. Whatever constitutional amendments needed to make that more possible would be as far as I’d want to go.

    What amendments, specifically, are you complaining of? AFAIK he supports amendments to establish that the 14th amendment’s protections apply before birth as well as after, and to ensure that states and the federal government aren’t forced to recognise same-sex marriages if they don’t want to. He also (or so I gather) supports amendments to end life appointments of federal judges, ending federal income tax (though if he thinks merely repealing the 16th amendment will have that effect then he’s sadly mistaken), and giving the states a say in judging the constitutionality of federal laws. Which of these do you object to?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  139. The problem with a states rights solution to these issues is history; consider California on
    immigration, affirmative action, same sex marriage, Michigan on affirmative action, Arizona on anything, one judge can shut down the whole shindig

    ian cormac (996c34)

  140. ian – I somehow knew that Mr. Feets had nishi’s platform of Jesuses, fetuses and penises in there somewhere.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  141. Can you imagine Obama kneeling in the Whitehouse and asking God for wisdom and strength of character? I can’t, not in private.

    No, sadly I can’t either.

    What amendments, specifically, are you complaining of? AFAIK he supports amendments to establish that the 14th amendment’s protections apply before birth as well as after, and to ensure that states and the federal government aren’t forced to recognise same-sex marriages if they don’t want to.

    Those.

    I’m not interested in bashing the guy, but I find it inconsistent to support different states having different approaches to social issues and then explain how he will use the federal government to settle some of them. Which I realize is not what you’re saying he would do with the marriage amendment, but we’ll see. It does seem to me he modified his views to be more appealing to conservatives, but frankly we’ll see what comes up in the debates.

    We all realize this is a bit of a sideshow meant to change the subject from jobs and the economy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  142. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/opinion/19wed1.html

    “On Tuesday, Mr. Obama drew a bright line between his religious connection with Mr. Wright, which should be none of the voters’ business, and having a political connection, which would be very much their business.”

    Hawkins (1fc204)

  143. 1. It’s becoming increasingly likely that an amendment on marriage is necessary, merely to protect states from having same-sex marriage imposed on them by the judiciary.

    2. Even if you believe (as I do) that each state should do its own thing, what about the federal government? It too must decide whether to recognise same-sex marriages, and not only is there high-powered federal litigation going on right now to force the feds to recognise them, but the 0bama administration has effectively welcomed that litigation. An amendment may be necessary to protect the fedgov’s right to make up its own mind based on the wishes of the national public. (Personally I would like the fedgov to be strictly neutral on the question, which means recognising same-sex marriages for citizens of states where they’re legal and not for citizens of states where they’re not; but it’s hardly unreasonable for Perry to disagree with me.)

    Should an amendment go further and impose a national definition of marriage, thus preventing states from implementing same-sex or plural marriage if they choose? I don’t think so, but if the choice is between such an amendment and none at all, then I’d support it. Better that a handful of states be deprived of the right to implement a change that they lived happily without for 240 years, than that the vast majority of states have such a change imposed on them.

    As for a Human Life amendment, again one could support one that merely restores the status quo ante Roe v Wade. And if the Supreme Court were to overturn that decision and its progeny, then there would be no need for an amendment and the support for one would dramatically shrink. But if one is going to go the amendment route anyway, then it’s natural to go for more than merely returning to a less-than-ideal status quo. Why set the rules of the game so that the pro-abortion side can only gain ground and never lose it? Why should states be allowed to legalise the murder of some people?

    The diversity argument as it applies to most issues is powerful: if each state can determine its own laws, then if you don’t like the laws in your state you can move to another one. If your state decides to allow people to shoot each other in the street, move to a state with different laws. But how is a baby to vote with its feet? If its home state allows its mother to hire a hitman and have it killed, how is it to flee over the state line to a place where it will be safer? And even if its home state does protect it, how will it prevent its mother from forcibly transporting it to a state where the law considers it fair game? After all, the federal courts will rigorously enforce the mother’s right to travel for any purpose she likes. So long as there is one state where abortion is legal, no baby is safe.

    And it is decidedly the law’s business to protect the helpless from being murdered. Just because the economy’s in the toilet, and must take priority over other things, that doesn’t mean we can forget about the first and primary purpose of government: “to secure these rights”. A rescued economy does a person no good at all if he’s dead because the government knowingly allowed a murderer to kill him. What’s the point in stabilising the public debt, from the point of view of someone who will never live to have to pay it? I’d happily burden my descendants with trillions more in debt, if that means I get to have descendants!

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  144. One can easily explain Perry’s reasoning both from the state’s right perspective and the settle via US Constitution perspective.

    But they are different POVs entirely.

    But this strikes me as not a real issue in play so much as a great wedge issue.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  145. Hawkins – Bright lines only count if you’re a Democrat according to the media. Get with the program.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_08/if_only_pollution_could_create031875.php

    There’s already a thread discussing Benen’s ignorance. Here’s another example.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  147. No wonder Keller is on the attack against Perry. The newest rumor in the Beltway is a Perry-Christie ticket that Business Insider columnist John Ellis says “has GOP activists nearly giddy with glee.” I’m not an activist but I’d be giddy with glee at that ticket, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  148. DRJ, that makes a terribly great deal of sense.

    Especially for Christie.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  149. I agree, Dustin. It could make Christie the heir apparent, which would help him since he’s not socially conservative (except I think he’s pro-life) and not from the South.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  150. …and a gun-grabber

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  151. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but I happen to love CC. I love his fearlessness both with his political adversaries and with the media. He has a powerful personality and a way with words and explanations. CC has shown a prosecutor’s approach to governing –laying out the facts–thinking, improvising on his feet– while moving toward what is actually possible to achieve. Perhaps because I live in a bluish state I get why he takes some of the positions he does. I am a fan. No doubtin’ that man’s a leader. And, he says he is not running for president in 2012 and has given his reasons.

    There is also no way I can envision him ever agreeing to be second banana (VP) to anybody in any administration.

    elissa (3c0713)

  152. Yeah, Milhouse, I disagree heavily with Christie on a few points. I had the same problem with Rudy. A very good leader who I do not agree with. I find self defense to be a basic human right, too.

    Still, for VP, this would be an excellent choice from a lot of perspectives. It’s unlikely he would be able to use the VP office to shape policy, but if somehow the president dies, Christie would be able to handle leadership in such a crisis from day one. Not everyone can do that.

    You know who this reminds me of? Dick Cheney. Though Cheney is as strong a 2nd amendment supporter as there ever was.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  153. Cheney would have made a great president, though. I wish he were electable.

    I like Christie where he is, or even as Secretary of Labor, but I would not want him “heir apparent” to the presidency. As for Giuliani, I don’t want him anywhere near the reins of power. I had enough of him as mayor, thankyouverymuch. I don’t like to use the F word, especially of an Italian, so I’ll just call him “authoritarian”.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  154. I love his fearlessness both with his political adversaries and with the media.

    Elissa, he’s the perfect attack dog style VP. He’s smart and sincere. Maybe they could let him do press conferences?

    I think this is a better choice than Rubio.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  155. Milhouse, one thing we have to accept is that the President / VP will be a compromise.

    No one who adores Dick Cheney will say Bush was their ideal president.

    How much compromise can we tolerate, if it means beating Obama? I think a more moderate VP isn’t asking too much.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  156. Gotta love the gorebots who think cow farts contribute to gorebull warming complaining about creationists being anti-science

    DohBiden (d54602)

  157. Dustin–

    CC would ratchet up the entertainment factor in interviews and pressers, that’s for sure.

    For better or worse, much of what makes Chris Christie who he is, is his confidence borne from considerable ego. I might be completely misreading the situation but I truly cannot imagine him in a capacity as second fiddle to anyone. I think CC’s leadership style pretty much relies on his being the big fish in the pond, no matter what size the pond is! In short, I can see how several different presidential hopefuls might very reasonably look to Christie as a strong VP choice. But I think if CC were interested in national politics right now he’d be running for president, himself. (Remember, he’s been courted and has declined.)

    elissa (3c0713)

  158. No one who adores Dick Cheney will say Bush was their ideal president.

    You can say that again. After watching the Cheney-Lieberman debate I said that either one of them would make a better president than either one of their principals. And on 11-Sep-2001 I entertained the thought that GWB would have made a better martyr than a president, and that Cheney would have made a great president.

    I wouldn’t mind Christie in the “fighter” role of VP candidate; but DRJ raised the spectre of Christie as “heir apparent” to the presidency, and I do not want that.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  159. And if Giuliani were to become president, all the fears about the USA PATRIOT Act would become very relevant. The man is a bully; he’s Elliot Spitzer’s twin. Civil liberties are an alien concept to him, as they are to Spitzer.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  160. Elissa, insightful as always.

    I might be completely misreading the situation but I truly cannot imagine him in a capacity as second fiddle to anyone.

    This has a ring of truth to me, but you never know.

    The leak could just be an effort on Perry’s part for folks to consider the possibilities. A stab at winning some of Romney’s establishment support. A lot of the more entrenched GOP seems to view Perry almost as a threat.

    I would really like to see Christie be the VP, and I just don’t think he’s telegenic enough to be the President. I know that’s sick to consider, but it’s probably true.

    Christie is slightly unpopular in NJ. I’m not sure he’s going to be reelected. He was right to say he’s not experienced enough to be president (nor are Ryan or Palin or Bachmann or Cain or Romney, in my completely perfect and unfailing opinion).

    I can definitely see Christie declining to be someone’s sidekick. I can also see him making the calculation that this is the best thing.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  161. Milhouse,

    Being VP didn’t insure Palin was heir apparent, although I think it gave her an advantage. Maybe picking Christie wouldn’t elevate him much more than it did Palin, but I think it would.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  162. Um, Palin wasn’t VP.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  163. I remember Palin

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  164. I’m not sure that Christie as Veep wouldn’t be a re-run of Agnew (of course he would need a Safire to write for him), but with Jersey-level corruption instead of Maryland – just how squeeky-clean is he anyway?
    Realistically, I take him at his word that he’s not running for higher office at this time – any office.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5a8b7e)

  165. Milhouse,

    You know what I meant, didn’t you?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  166. DRJ, no, I didn’t and still don’t. How can you compare being VP to being a failed candidate for VP?

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  167. AD, I’m sure he is clean; before last year he was a US prosecutor, not a politician.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  168. DRJ, no, I didn’t and still don’t. How can you compare being VP to being a failed candidate for VP?

    Comment by Milhouse — 8/30/2011 @ 4:28 pm

    Well, the job of running for VP is a lot harder than the job of being VP.

    And you take on a role as a leader in the party. The GOP nominating Palin sent a message that she was, in their eyes, up to the task of president.

    I think DRJ’s meaning is pretty easy to take in.

    At any rate, the failure was probably Mccain’s more than Palin. She did more than her share of shoring up that ticket, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  169. Exactly but we must run anti-gun pro-abortion pro-gorebull warming flip flopney to win.

    Honestly you cannot always rely on cops to save you so you should own guns legally.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  170. Milhouse,

    Obviously being a sitting VP would have materially enhanced Palin’s status and electability. However, despite the McCain-Palin loss, Palin’s standing in the Republican Party was nevertheless elevated by her nomination. She went from being a virtual unknown to a known and/or major force. In other words, being named the VP nominee gives that person a leg up in name recognition and supporters.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  171. At any rate, the failure was probably Mccain’s more than Palin. She did more than her share of shoring up that ticket, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

    Of course. She rescued McCain, turning a disaster into a respectable loss. But the topic here is what being VP would do for Christie. So comparisons to Palin are not appropriate, because he would actually be VP, and would be entering the 2020 primaries as a sitting VP, not just as a failed candidate.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  172. I think DRJ’s point that Palin was elevated hugely just for having been a candidate on the ticket is quite accurate.

    I had heard of her. In fact, I predicted she would be the nominee months before she was (I wasn’t serious about it). But most folks had no idea who she was.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  173. being a sitting VP would only have enhanced Palin’s status and electability if she lasted the whole term I think

    A dicey proposition.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  174. Heh. Perhaps you should marry someone who hates Palin, happyfeet. Then, no matter what happens in your married life, you’ll always have that bond.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  175. do you think I might could find someone like that in Los Angeles?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  176. I bet there’s one on every LA street. Maybe even every street corner.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  177. Obviously being a sitting VP would have materially enhanced Palin’s status and electability.

    Not necessarily, DRJ. It hasn’t exactly done wonders for Joe Biden’s status or electability.

    Cardinal Mahoney (e84e27)

  178. I’m not sure that Christie as Veep wouldn’t be a re-run of Agnew (of course he would need a Safire to write for him), but with Jersey-level corruption instead of Maryland – just how squeeky-clean is he anyway?

    Don’t you think that if the teachers unions in NJ had anything on Christie, they would have used it by now?

    Cardinal Mahoney (e84e27)

  179. Damn. Those last two were mine. Holdovers from the sock puppet thread

    Chuck Bartowski (e84e27)

  180. Cardinal/Chuck #180,

    You may be right. Biden certainly hasn’t enhanced his standing with me. His highest poll number in the 2008 Democratic Presidential primary was 21% (in his home state of Delaware). Other than that, he was mired in the second tier of Democratic candidates at 2+% to 4% support. [NOTE: All polls linked here.] But in the most recent poll I could find in mid-2010, VP Biden’s favorable/unfavorable ratings were 43/41. I doubt he’d find much support for President, especially waiting until 2016, but I suspect he’d poll higher than 4% simply because he’s been VP.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  181. Chuck, you could be right; but it could also be the case that their Op-researchers are not as skilled as Axelrod’s.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5a8b7e)

  182. More than one person has thought that with Biden as VP, the bar to impeach Obama is very high indeed. Cheney was picked by Bush because he had a long and distinguished career in important positions, Biden was picked to be VP because…of his foreign policy expertise ?!?!?

    CC can stand his ground on the positions he holds, which have been economic/ bringing the unions/democratic party alliance under some oversight. Other than that, I’m not sure what positions he holds that are conservative. I would not be enthused.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  183. MD,

    I like Christie because he is articulate and won’t back down. These qualities appeal to me because they help the eventual GOP ticket communicate what I hope will be its fiscally conservative platform. They are also important since the media will be waiting to pounce on every Republican problem, mistake, and waffle.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  184. Well, the proper response would be to just wade into the press tent, and start kicking …, and taking names…

    Oh, wait, I guess only the underprivileged can do that (see: London thugs).

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5a8b7e)

  185. I agree with you DRJ on your points about CC (you said it better than I did), and since we live in an imperfect world we will end up needing to compromise somewhere. I would have been willing to compromise for Guiliani even though I am pro-life because G gave his criteria for judges that was fine and said he would not pursue a pro-choice agenda as president. (Maybe that would have been a mistake, but that is what I was thinking.)

    Some months ago this terrible case of the abortion doc that was charged with multiple counts of murder here in Philly was in the news. The state’s lax regulations regarding oversight of abortion providers that made it possible for him to get away with it were made under Gov. Tom Ridge (R) (revised from previous more stringent guidelines). Obviously that means nothing in regard to Christie other than the general principle that there are multiple issues to judge a candidate on. Would it be very hard for the Repubs to nominate someone I would not vote for against Obama? Yes, it would be very hard, but I’m not committing to it being impossible.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  186. DRJ – How is Mr. Gov. Fat Mittens I Ate The Whole Thing on Mr. Feets’s core issues of Jesuses, fetuses and penises? Gotta be better than Palin, right?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  187. MD in Philly, abortion is not Giuliani’s main fault. His main fault is his authoritarianism, his lack of any regard for other people’s civil liberties. He shares that trait with Elliot Spitzer.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  188. Jesus is the reason for the season Mr. daley

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  189. #190 I always puke a little when Liberals talk Civil Liberties. Wish they’d be concern about liberty when burdening the productive with paying for the unproductive to live high-on-the-hog.

    S. Carter aka J-Z (049336)

  190. what fun it is to laugh!
    and sing!
    a sleighing song tonight

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  191. Mr. Feets – All the seasons are little baby Jesus’s.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  192. Milhouse- I appreciate your thoughts. You are correct in pointing out a problem with Guiliani (along with my not being able to spell his name). But, I was also just giving an example on how some compromises could be made.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  193. “a sleighing song tonight”

    Get down, get down

    atheism, abortion, sodomy

    Rock the House, Team D

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  194. he is risen!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  195. oops! I’ma tiptoe right on outa here. (Having trouble picking up the beat.)

    elissa (806a60)

  196. I always puke a little when Liberals talk Civil Liberties.

    Perhaps you do, but that doesn’t diminish their importance. They are what America is about, above all else. They are far more important than the economy, or even public safety. And they must be safeguarded, even if it means cooperating with lefties to do so.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  197. in the future everyone will sing like katy perry for fifteen minutes

    oh wait I mean now

    at least they’re proud of their roots

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  198. In the past everybody sang sort of like this

    I mean like 40 years ago

    not like that noise you linked

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  199. ==in the future everyone will sing like..==

    Let’s see–head in the gas oven or walking into the lake with rocks in pockets or leave it to Obamacare. Decisions Decisions Decisions.

    elissa (806a60)

  200. NOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  201. that Bobby guy has a lot of feelings about this honey person plus something about a tree

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  202. Honey person? Did you mean honey badger?

    JD (318f81)

  203. Honey was very popular at the time as was the tree.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  204. honey badgers- they make Tazmanian devils seem like newborn kittens

    If a serious third party comes up, they should pick a honey badger, serious determination, no elephants or donkeys

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  205. 201.In the past everybody sang sort of like this

    Daleyrocks, Bobby Goldsboro should have been hauled out and shot for recording that sappy, maudlin song.

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  206. Chuck – Where is the love?

    You might like this one a little better you big whiner.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  207. daleyrocks:

    How is Mr. Gov. Fat Mittens I Ate The Whole Thing on Mr. Feets’s core issues of Jesuses, fetuses and penises?

    Wiki says Christie is Catholic and The Philly Post says he recently became pro-life, making him the first pro-life Governor in New Jersey history. I’m not sure about the third category but I assume as the parent of 4 children, he’s for them (although he has twice vetoed funding for Planned Parenthood).

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  208. the future will be
    filled with Captain Beefhearts and
    Trout Mask Replicas

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  209. Mr. Feets – Mr. Booby’s about the death of his young wife and the planting of the tree was #1 for more than four weeks in 1968 and the single sold more than one million copies.

    Tree planting was a very popular sport back then, before ERF Day spoiled it.

    Pay no attention to grouchy Chuck.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  210. DRJ – Thank you. Mr. Feets surely must support the Gov. Mr. Fat Mittens Mackerel Snapping Get Off My Beach Pro Life dude after reading that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  211. I meant not support.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  212. Christie is not a fan of gay marriage and would not approve a bill legalizing it in New Jersey. So that may make him 0 for 3 on hf’s scale.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  213. Although, honestly, I’m not sure where hf stands on these issues when someone other than Palin espouses them. What do you think of Christie, hf?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  214. Daley, that one wasn’t any good when America first recorded it :)

    Just for the record, “Honey” probably wasn’t the worst song Goldsboro recorded, since he had some atrocious songs in the 70s. But I think if Satan has a jukebox, “Honey” would be selection A-1.

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  215. Chris Christie is a
    for reals honey badger
    look out union thugs!

    elissa (edcfac)

  216. “Daley, that one wasn’t any good when America first recorded it”

    Chuck – I got plenty more up my sleeve if you complain about my musical selections. Plenty of plain awful music from the 60s, 70s and 80s just begging to be linked.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  217. Christie is a good governor of New Jersey – he’s not really president material I don’t think… he’s a huge global warming whore – that’s a deal-breaker I think and it makes me think he’s not a particularly smart person

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  218. “But I think if Satan has a jukebox, “Honey” would be selection A-1.”

    I’m pretty fond of MacArthur Park myself.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  219. daley must have sleeves tailored by Omar-the-tent-maker, as so much of what was recorded in those three decades is just drek.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  220. AD – Just not feeling the love here tonight.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  221. I’ve always liked the arrangement of Procol Harum’s “Whiter Shade of Pale”, but now I’m sort of scared if I mention it in public one of those CBC dudes or dudettes will come after me.

    elissa (edcfac)

  222. elissa – Liked that as well. AWB, but probably can’t talk about them either.

    Out for now.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. drew out of his mind
    some of the best tunes evah!
    recorded back then

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  224. christie nuthin’ but
    big fat new joizy pantload
    of youtube moments

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  225. also Christie does support civil unions which means he’s a lot less consumed with pandering to anti-gay hicks than Palin or Perry or Bachmann

    but that global warming thing is still a huge deal-breaker

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  226. Palin also supports civil unions you twerp.

    And gotta love the elitism on display in Crappyfeets comment.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  227. teh Band teh Stones
    allman bros, little feat now
    Radio Gaga

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  228. colonel just threw up a little in mouth

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  229. I’ve never heard Palin advocating civil unions

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  230. Well she has you smarmy cocksure paulturd.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  231. do you have a link?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  232. She supported giving same-sex couples the same benefits as heteros……….that comes close.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  233. no she didn’t support benefits for same-sex couples she said that Alaskans should have a referendum for so the majority could strip benefits from same-sex couples

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  234. Comment by daleyrocks — 8/31/2011 @ 5:39 pm

    You proved my point.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  235. While I seriously enjoy my Sirius XM in the car, I had succeeded in forgetting there was a version of “Hooked on a Feeling” that began with the Cro-Magnon “Ugga-Chucka” until last night. I don’t know why they wasted airtime on something like that when they could have played “Dead Skunk” (…it shoulda’ looked left and it shoulda’ looked right, it didn’t see the station wagon car, the skunk got squashed and there you are… Yes, those were the days my friend- wait, that was another song, don’t think I’ve heard that on Sirius yet.)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  236. Palin opposed state-covered health and retiree benefits to same-sex partners of state employees but complied with an Alaska Supreme Court directive to do so and subsequently vetoed a bill that would have denied the benefits. In an interview with Newsweek in 2007, she affirmed her support for an amendment to the state constitution denying benefits to same-sex couples. She later signed a bill ordering a non-binding referendum for a constitutional amendment to deny the benefits. Although the referendum passed in April 2007, with 53 percent of voters supporting a constitutional amendment, a bill to place such an amendment on the ballot in November 2008 stalled in the state legislature.

    if she’s an advocate for civil unions she really sucks at it

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  237. the first pro-life Governor in New Jersey history

    I very much doubt that. I’m 100% certain that the vast majority of NJ’s 63 governors have been solidly opposed to abortion.

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)

  238. Comment by MD in Philly — 8/31/2011 @ 6:11 pm

    Doc, you should subscribe to Pandora.com.
    Just the music you like and select.
    I’ve got Kenton and the Gerald Wilson Big Band, Miles Davis, Chuck Mangione, and for National Holidays: John Phillip Sousa.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  239. daleyrocks,

    I go back and forth on Richard Burton’s hit version of “MacArthur Park,” but Jimmy Webb is one of America’s great pop songwriters and his solo version is pretty great.

    Karl (37b303)

  240. You mean “Richard Harris” don’t you?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  241. MD in Philly,

    The Blue Suede cover of “Hooked On a Feeling” is awesomely kitchy (which is an odd thing to write when the original has an electric sitar).

    Granted, “Dead Skunk” is fab — saw Loudon once, opening for the incredible Richard Thompson — but it’s a different animal altogether (bad pun intended).

    Karl (37b303)

  242. 244

    Indeed I do. Hammy Brit confusion!

    Karl (37b303)

  243. BTW, though Webb is sorta famous for not talking about the meaning of “MacArthur Park,” I have heard him talk about it a bit. Most of it is autobiographical, including the pants, the cake and the icing.

    Karl (37b303)

  244. Pandora is great. Someone left a cake out in the rain…

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  245. whoever left the cake out in the rain should lose their cake privileges

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  246. Honestly my favorite version of MacArthur Park is that of Maynard Ferguson.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  247. Bill Kellers beclowning achievement?

    His birth.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  248. During the 2008 election, the McCain-Palin platform on gay marriage, civil unions, etc., was exactly the same as Obama-Biden’s.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  249. yes it was

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  250. The sweet green icing…

    Karl (37b303)

  251. DRJ – depending on your party affiliation, having the same position as Barcky makes you either wonderfully open-minded, or a hohophobe.

    JD (318f81)

  252. When you’re Maynard, it is hard not to do “great”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  253. So why aren’t Obama and Biden self-absorbed hicks.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  254. I believe in drilling here drilling now……….but that makes me an hater of the environment.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  255. Ah, they’re much to nuanced.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  256. “too”

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  257. Obama and Biden are whores what have perverted America with their dirty socialist molestations.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  258. As Governor while palin opposed gay marriage she had no problem providing them with the same benefits as heteros.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  259. yes actually she bitched and moaned about it to anyone who would listen

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  260. Waylon Jennings and
    Donna Summer, best versions
    of MacArthur Park

    Icy Texan (b1b8ac)

  261. Reagan denounced abortion, but the Federal Government under his Administration upheld the law as interpreted/decided/created by SCOTUS.

    Hate the sin, love the sinner.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  262. Like how you bytch and moan everyday?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  263. Reagan is like from the 80s or something we didn’t even have for reals cell phones

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  264. Is it safe to have a picnic and cake in MacArthur Park?

    elissa (edcfac)

  265. And we didn’t have for reals fox news too.

    >_>

    DohBiden (d54602)

  266. I said Sarah please stop your bitching and moaning about the gays and their benefits and she was all “make me, happyfeet and furthermore I think all Alaskans should vote on this subject and if it were up to me I’d take away all their benefits.”

    And I said sweet Sarah sunshine I have way too much respect for you to make you do anything.

    And then she flipped me off.

    You just can’t talk to her sometimes.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  267. Comment by elissa — 8/31/2011 @ 7:17 pm

    NO!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  268. It could have been worse, feets; you might have interupted her during a Caribou hunt.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  269. I heard Sarah only shoots the gay caribous

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  270. Caribou Marinade (Barbie sold separately) :

    Ingredients
    1 cup water
    1/4 cup vinegar
    10 each peppercorns
    1 each thyme sprigs
    1 each garlic clove
    1 tablespoon brown sugar
    1 cup red wine dry
    1/4 cup vegetable oil
    5 each juniper berries
    3 each bay leaves
    1 x nutmeg grated
    1 x red hot pepper sauce (eg. Tabasco)
    Directions
    Combine ingredients in a non-metal bowl.

    Enough for 10 chops or 5 large steaks.

    Cover and marinade 2 days or longer. Turn daily.

    The strained marinade can be used as a BBQ baste or incorporated into gravies and sauces afterwards.

    Read more at: http://recipeland.com/recipe/v/Caribou-Marinade-26923

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  271. yes actually she bitched and moaned about it to anyone who would listen

    Really? How often did she mention it? How often did she bring it up unprompted?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  272. I highly doubt Sarah knows who you are crappyfeet you pathetic hasbeen.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  273. where do you get juniper berries?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  274. Where do you get juniper berries?

    Sarah quit her job because of you so why don’t you go ask her.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  275. The topic occupies exactly one page in her first book, and I don’t think it’s even mentioned in her second book.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  276. Really? How often did she mention it? How often did she bring it up unprompted?

    I have no idea Mr. Milhouse the point is to characterize Sarah’s position in a way that’s unflattering to her

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  277. where do you get juniper berries?

    If you can’t find them you can substitute a bottle of gin.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  278. Spice House, 1512 N. Wells Street

    Next time you’re in Chi-town, stop by. Also, juniper berries are in gin. And you can find gin lots of places.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  279. he point is to characterize Sarah’s position in a way that’s unflattering to her

    Even if you have to lie to do so. Sounds like what a certain lowlife just did to Stacy McCain’s video of Michelle Bachmann.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  280. Because of you and your media buddys*

    DohBiden (d54602)

  281. I LOL’d a little at “Sarah Palin’s second book.” Kinda like Obama.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  282. Wouldn’t be surprised if that lowlife was crappyfeet.

    Don’t get me wrong her shill supporters are wrong but the attacks on her are wrong.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  283. I have no problem with Sarah Palin as long as she’s not running for president and I seriously doubt she is cause of that would be zany. The original point was that Christie is pro-civil union whereas Palin Perry and Bachmann are not. There’s a real issue what needs to be addressed in some way with respect to the legal status of same sex couples and none of these three offer crap as far as leadership goes. Christie does.

    Also he’s godawful fat.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  284. You can get a little jar of juniper ‘berries’ at any decent health food store. Also Amazon.

    Better yet, omit them from the recipe. Also the nutmeg and two of the bay leaves. Add a cup of soy sauce of something.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  285. I’ll look for juniper berries this weekend just to see them

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  286. I like the idea of a Christie/Perry combo because they agree on fiscal conservatism. Their alliance would make it more difficult to make the election about evolution or gay anything, and simply focused on administrative skill and cutting out bloat and corruption.

    It’s a good idea. I might add to Milhouse to consider this a bit like a Bush/Cheney ticket, only with Cheney in the top role and Bush in the secondary role. It’s a pretty nice upgrade, if you assume the ticket was always going to be a compromise.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  287. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah how dare she not bow and scrape and kiss gay butt.

    Piss off you psycho.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  288. Not only is Christie fat, he wears his fat guy seatbelt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l91zCmSVhg

    (too soon?)

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  289. Carlitos !!!!!!!!!

    JD (318f81)

  290. I like Perry with Nikki Haley the best. But no hurry.

    Corzine is an icky Goldman Sachs whore. Terrible person.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  291. William Shatner’s MacArthur Park was awesome!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  292. Dustin–Since you’re here on this thread and the thread is a jumbled up mess anyway, I’ll just mention that the last couple of days I’ve seen a whole lot about your Texas drought and wildfires. It’s been big on our local news as well as ABC network and PBS newshour. I know the lack of coverage has been bugging you and it looks really awful for people, animals, crops and property.

    elissa (edcfac)

  293. Thanks, Elissa. I probably shouldn’t be such a baby about it. We’ll pull through, but it hit my town kinda hard.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  294. JD!!!!

    feets!!!

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  295. Mr. carlitos!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  296. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah how dare she not bow and scrape and kiss gay butt.

    Piss off you psycho.

    Comment by DohBiden — 8/31/2011 @ 7:47 pm

    DohBiden doesn’t appreciate that gay butt is the tastiest. In terms of kissing.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  297. Texas… if it ain’t stingin’ ya, bitin’ ya or kicking yer ass, it’s burnin’ yer ass down to the ground!

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  298. I LOL’d a little at “Sarah Palin’s second book.” Kinda like Obama.

    Carlitos, go find the nearest body of water and stick your head in it for 10 minutes. Yes, Palin has written two books. Yes, she had help from Lynn Vincent, at least for the first one, but they are her work. She didn’t just dictate some tapes and have Bill Ayers turn them into books.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  299. William Shatner’s MacArthur Park was awesome!

    daley… you are one sick and twisted puppy, lol.

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  300. Milhouse!!!!!!!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  301. I just felt left out.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  302. palin dream of moose
    not low-life, good-fer-nuthin’
    dad she never had

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  303. three books if you count the facebook posts that she put up

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  304. happy feet with nutz
    dipped in santorum with a
    cherry on the top

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  305. Palin like obama?

    So she was a community organizer?

    The palin haters are just as psychotic as her most ardent supporters.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  306. Someone left the cake
    out in the rain. I don’t think
    that I can take it.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  307. happy wait in vain
    senator patty murray
    will not run for prez

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  308. Colonel – I’m baaaack!

    More 1970s total awesomeness.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  309. Dustin!!!!

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  310. I’m a watch tv now

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  311. Hey daleyrocks, I was (thisclose) to the former mayor this evening. He was at the Sox game and he, along with owners of a local restaurant group, had a table at the bar at Sox Park. He looks … relaxed.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  312. colonel know in heart
    two terms of Zero we won’t
    have pot to piss in

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  313. Why is everybody so crabby and cranky tonight? The president’s much anticipated jobs speech is not until Thursday. Save up some cranky for that. You’ll need it.

    elissa (edcfac)

  314. A Cheney/Bush ticket would have been grand (except for the fact that Cheney has never been electable); but Bush, while a “big government conservative” at least had his heart in the right place on the fundamental basics, such as the bill of rights. If he ended up president we could rest assured that he wouldn’t launch a jihad against our freedoms. With Christie and his opposition to the 2nd amendment, as well as his global-warmenist sympathies, I’m not so sure. Also, he’s a prosecutor, and I’m suspicious of them as a species (sorry Patterico); they may do their job conscientiously (as I’m sure Patterico does), but too many of them seem to see the rights of defendants as an obstacle to be got around, rather than the point of the entire enterprise of government. Maybe I’m just too close to the examples of Giuliani and Spitzer.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  315. 10-4, rubber ducky… sheesh, daley!

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  316. carlitos – Hizzoner should be relaxed, what with all that money he socked away.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  317. c’mon elissa
    colonel got so much more piss
    and vinegar left!

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  318. Palin’s facebook notes (which are entirely her own work) are must-read material, but they’re not a book. She needed help with the first book, because she’d never done that before.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  319. elissa – No crankiness here. Spreading love through music.

    This is a love blog. Just ask Mr. Feets.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  320. Sorry it’s just that Palin haters sometimes use the tactics that her cultists use.[I thought they hated the cultists?] Demonize anyone who does not agree.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  321. True fact shamelessly stolen from Ace, Dick Cheney once killed and ate a congressman in front of a visiting troop of girl scouts, as part of his demonstration of “how a bill becomes law.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  322. At this point it’s all about pacing yourself, Colonel.

    elissa (edcfac)

  323. Yeah daley. If nothing else, his kids / nephews can support him if things go wrong. :roll:

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/7255589-452/city-pension-funds-could-lose-1-million-in-deal-with-daley-nephew.html

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  324. Colonel obviously want more songs.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  325. carlitos – As always it is not what you know, but who you know that matters here.

    Who sent you?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  326. Colonel no Dixie Chicken

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  327. Can I make a post as scattered as this thread…

    Never left cake out in the rain, but we apparently left one in a snow bank somewhere between Irwin, PA and Bryan, Ohio when I was a child. Home to grandma’s for Christmas, when we got there the cake my mom made was not to be found. The theory, never verified, was that the cake was left on top of the car while getting ourselves in at the start of the trip.

    When in residency we did two months in the ER of a children’s hospital. One of the “souvenirs” on a shelf was a bottle of “Gripe Water” taken from a parent- apparently a common treatment for colicy babies in some of the West Indies- “active ingredient” was juniper berry extract, “inactive ingredients” included like 20% ethyl alcohol!!

    Thanks for the suggestion, AD. I don’t have any device to get Pandora when not at home, but we do listen to it at home sometimes. I typically listen to my “Rich Mullins” station. I don’t think I ever would have sought out Sirius, but it came free for 3 months with the car. It is really handy when driving long distances.
    Chuck Mangione, George Benson, and Al DiMieolla (sp?), my foray into jazz.
    Karl- so, that was an electric sitar of all things. as feets would say, nobody tells me anything (except you did just now).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  328. I haven’t followed the music comments as closely as I should. Does this fit tonight’s theme?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  329. #312
    That’s why cell phones were invented…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  330. Apparently not. But I like it anyway, despite her politics.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  331. Sarah said, “Do me, happyfeet.” But feets couldn’t take it — melting in the dark — all his sweet green icing flowing down.

    Icy Texan (b1b8ac)

  332. Excellent selection DRJ.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  333. ==Does this fit tonight’s theme?==

    There are no rules here tonight, DRJ. In the immortal words of our old friend Alcee Hastings, “Rules? There are no rules. We make ‘em up as we go along.”

    elissa (edcfac)

  334. ARTHUR: Master! Your people have walked many miles to be with You! They are weary and have not eaten.
    BRIAN: It’s not my fault they haven’t eaten!
    ARTHUR: There is no food in this high mountain!
    BRIAN: Well, what about the juniper bushes over there?
    ELSIE: Heh?
    FOLLOWERS: Heh! A miracle! A miracle! Ohh!…
    SHOE FOLLOWER: He has made the bush fruitful by His words.
    YOUTH: They have brought forth juniper berries.
    BRIAN: Of course they’ve brought forth juniper berries! They’re juniper bushes! What do you expect?!

    Icy Texan (b1b8ac)

  335. Happyfeet-Sarah fetch me a sandwich.

    Sarah Palin-Fetch yourself the sandwich

    Happyfeet angrily-YOU WILL FETCH ME A SANDWICH AND LIKE IT FOR REALS THIS TIME.

    Srah Palin-Whatever.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  336. DRJ,

    Nice, tho Zevon’s version is also good. Plus, Cowbell.

    Karl (37b303)

  337. DRJ, at least it wasn’t “Blue Bayou” – I got soooo sick of that song.
    At least Linda had the good sense to go away, something she didn’t share with The Moonbeam.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (f8e76c)

  338. DRJ!!!!!!
    Not really, because the focus (using the term very loosely) was sort of odd things from the 60′s-70′s-, and your link was just good typical stuff- but as said, the main point was being a bit scattered amidst the craziness, at least that’s what I went with

    Karl!!!!
    That was interesting. I always thought the sound was simply electronically manipulating the sound of an electric guitar.

    There was some car commercial where these animals kept jumping/flying through the ceiling window (I know there’s a better name)- maybe a video should be made that starts out with “Muskrat Love” then morphs into “Born to Be Wild” with a honey badger…

    That is all

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  339. Mike Ditka in Philadelphia!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  340. And now we have come full circle with the honey badgers.

    JD (318f81)

  341. nothing better than
    “Carmelita” by Zevon
    at least colonel think

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)

  342. God throw Dustin bone
    rain for parched Texas from the
    frickin’ laser beams

    Scientists: Giant lasers fired into sky could be used to create rainfall: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2032057/Laser-assisted-water-condensation-used-create-rainfall.html

    ColonelHaiku (ac06bc)


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