Patterico's Pontifications

8/15/2011

Second Circuit to New Haven: No Matter What You Do, You Are Going to be Sued…

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 5:19 pm



[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

Do you remember Ricci v. DeStefano?  Maybe not by that name, but it was more famously known as the New Haven Firefighter’s case.

I think it is useful when talking about what is happening today to look at the facts as set out by the Supreme Court in that case:

In 2003, 118 New Haven firefighters took examinations to qualify for promotion to the rank of lieutenant or captain. Promotion examinations in New Haven (or City) were infrequent, so the stakes were high. The results would determine which firefighters would be considered for promotions during the next two years, and the order in which they would be considered. Many firefighters studied for months, at considerable personal and financial cost.

When the examination results showed that white candidates had outperformed minority candidates, the mayor and other local politicians opened a public debate that turned rancorous. Some firefighters argued the tests should be discarded because the results showed the tests to be discriminatory. They threatened a discrimination lawsuit if the City made promotions based on the tests. Other firefighters said the exams were neutral and fair. And they, in turn, threatened a discrimination lawsuit if the City, relying on the statistical racial disparity, ignored the test results and denied promotions to the candidates who had performed well. In the end the City took the side of those who protested the test results. It threw out the examinations.

Certain white and Hispanic firefighters who likely would have been promoted based on their good test performance sued the City and some of its officials.

So the case went to the Supreme Court and the Court ruled that throwing out the test results was unlawful discrimination against the white and Hispanic firefighters.  I think the concluding paragraphs of this opinion are equally relevant and indeed ironic given what happened today:

Our holding today clarifies how Title VII applies to resolve competing expectations under the disparate-treatment and disparate-impact provisions. If, after it certifies the test results, the City faces a disparate-impact suit, then in light of our holding today it should be clear that the City would avoid disparate-impact liability based on the strong basis in evidence that, had it not certified the results, it would have been subject to disparate-treatment liability.

Petitioners are entitled to summary judgment on their Title VII claim, and we therefore need not decide the underlying constitutional question. The judgment of the Court of Appeals is reversed, and the cases are remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

So what happened today to make that ironic?  The Second Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that a black firefighter can sue the New Haven Fire Department based on literally the same decision.  So basically the New Haven Fire Department lost in the Ricci case, was ordered to go forward with the promotions, and are now being sued for that exact decisions.

And I don’t mean that they are being sued for a similar decision, either.  I mean they are being sued for the promotions specifically involving Ricci and company.

They are literally being sued for obeying a court order.  Mull that over for a  moment and realize that our justice system is being reduced to absurdity.

But in all of this, the fault might lie at the feet of the district court, which I will note completely f—ed things up in the first place.  I mean whatever you think of the Ricci case,  the district court’s original opinion was indefensible.  The city said it would base promotions on how the firefighters did on the exam, but when the results came out, it was pretty blatantly obvious that they decided to change their minds based on the skin color of who did best.  This, the court reasoned, was not racial discrimination.  That was always a wrong answer as a matter of black letter law.  The correct answer is to say that it was discrimination but that not all racial discrimination is illegal, and then to determine if that racial discrimination was legal.  Like it or not, that was the law as of that date.  The precedents were clear on that point.

And then apparently the District Court screwed up again, perhaps aided and abetted by bad counsel for New Haven.  This is not the first time they have had to deal with these kinds of after-the-fact attacks in dealing with discrimination and there is a way to prevent this kind of suit.  You see, 42 U.S.C. § 2000-e(n) states that:

(B) A practice [ordered by the courts] may not be challenged in a claim under the Constitution or Federal civil rights laws—

(i) by a person who, prior to the entry of the judgment or order described in subparagraph (A), had—

(I) actual notice of the proposed judgment or order sufficient to apprise such person that such judgment or order might adversely affect the interests and legal rights of such person and that an opportunity was available to present objections to such judgment or order by a future date certain; and

(II) a reasonable opportunity to present objections to such judgment or order;

That language suggested a procedure, by which the court would give objectors a certain amount of time to object and if they didn’t, then they would forfeit their claims, all of which was not done thus opening the door to this litigation.

I still believe that New Haven is virtually guaranteed a summary judgment, but that only comes after discovery—which could be extremely costly for the city.

Anyway, you can read the entire Second Circuit decision on the matter, here.

And I will say that I still stand by this analysis of Ricci, here:

And, bluntly, the safer course would have been this. First, throw out every question that has no application to [N]ew [holding]aven (there were a few). Then re-score the test based on that change. Then, unless they can show the remaining questions were unfair according to race, certify the results.

Because here is the reality of the situation. I have pointed out in the past where I thought that disparities existed in tests. For instance, I have taken hundreds of IQ tests, and I remember one in particular that asked about the meaning of the book of Genesis, but only asked generally what the Koran was. So clearly that is a test that favors Jews and Christians over Muslims, because while the first group is rewarded for specific knowledge of their holy book, the second is not, and I said so at the time. But I don’t think that kind of thing is happening here. I would be really surprised if they are asking questions on the test that is rewarding one set of knowledge that white people are more likely to have, and not exploring areas of knowledge that African Americans are more likely to have, which pertains to firefighting.

There are actually four possibilities to explain it that I think are more likely. The first is that this is just a statistical burp. I believe the average white person is just as suited as the average black person to be a firefighter, but that doesn’t mean that there are never any statistical deviations from that in particular places. In one community, I would assume that more black people than whites would make great firefighters; and in another, more white people than black people would be.

The second is that something in New Haven society keeps the best potential black firefighters from becoming firefighters in the first place, that doesn’t restrain white persons.

The third is that maybe the African American firefighters could have done better but effects of discrimination over their life have held them back. So for instance, maybe their minds simply haven’t been nurtured over their lifetimes as much as the white firefighters.

And the fourth is that maybe in the past New Haven has practiced discrimination against African Americans, so that in the past firefighters were more likely to be white. So then those white firefighters very often raised their children to follow in their footsteps and therefore have given their children a lot more training in the area of firefighting. So maybe Ricci is a great firefighter in part because his daddy, and his granddaddy, and his great-granddaddy were all firefighters, and he benefits from all of that familial knowledge. (Speaking hypothetically; I don’t know nearly that much about Ricci.)

I have a feeling that the last one is the most likely possibility.

Now, in all of those possibilities it is still the case that as of this day, the best scorers on the test are likely the best firefighters, and if there is any discrimination to blame, it is not the test itself, but forces outside of the test itself. And however much we might lament those outside forces (and I do) and the wasted potential, the fact is if your house is burning down, do you want the guy who would have been a great firefighter but for discrimination that keeps him from acquiring the knowledge to be a great firefighter, or the guy who is right now a great firefighter?

The question answers itself.

It also suggests that rather than taking the easy way out by quotas and the like that New Haven can and probably should engage in an aggressive program of developing African American firefighters to their fullest potential. So the affirmative action should be there, in the form of affirmatively finding black potential and developing it. Rather than ignoring what are more likely than not real differences in knowledge and ability, New Haven should instead work to erase those actual differences.

Which is indeed what is so pernicious about the de facto quota they tried to establish here—it would have allowed New Haven to ignore the underlying reasons for the disparity, rather than address and correct them. It doesn’t do the people of New Haven or the black firefighters themselves any favors if they are promoted when they don’t deserve it.

The ruling in Ricci was a positive step in the right direction.  It is now on the authorities in New Haven to work to actually erase the racial differences that exist there, rather than just covering them up.

I still think that is right.  Affirmative action in the form of raising people up, making them affirmatively better, rather than just by holding other people back.

(Hat tip: How Appealing)

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

138 Responses to “Second Circuit to New Haven: No Matter What You Do, You Are Going to be Sued…”


  1. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that a black firefighter can sue the New Haven Fire Department based on literally the same decision.

    Hey, it’s clearly time to SMAck that ass!!!

    You know, the moronic judge(s) who keep making these absurdist decisions.

    Smock Puppet, Facepalm Expert (c9dcd8)

  2. AW, don’t forget that the “concerned Latina” was on the wrong side of this decision when she was on the Circuit Court.

    One thing you could say for the old “Spoils System”, these things didn’t happen – you got rewarded for loyalty to the machine, and it didn’t matter how many houses burned down, unless the machine got booted out.
    Perhaps these positions should be put up for public auction?
    How much worse could it be?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (61abdc)

  3. you can’t fix stupid; you can only mock it mercilessly.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  4. Sonia Sotomanwhore should ESAD.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  5. AW, isn’t that cute? DohBiden learned a new dirty word.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  6. Aw isn’t that cute?

    Your side has called Palin a lot worse.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  7. Sonia Sotomanwhore

    Really?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  8. What..? I don’t even…no. I have no words that I could say in front of my grandmother about this without getting my fool head knocked off.

    So I’ll refrain. :::muttering under breath $%#@%^::::

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  9. Sorry if that was too far.

    But after what they called Palin I just think their outrageous outrage is a stretch.

    BTW PTSD does exist but the left really doesn’t care about our military.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  10. AW, isn’t that cute? DohBiden learned a new dirty word.

    Which word is that?

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  11. The legal fiction here is that a fair test would not reach a racially disparate result. However in reality you can have a fair test or you can a racially equal result, but you can’t have both.

    Actually I think this is progress. Usually courts try to avoid crystallizing contradictions like this.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3de3a)

  12. No, Dana, ESAD is an obscene and [very] sick expression. Only a vicious degenerate would say it.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  13. r you can get a racially equal result.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3de3a)

  14. summit

    oh lighten up. telling a person to eat sh– and die is not that horrible mainly because it is repeated so much as to be robbed of most meaning.

    Its like pretending that when i say f— you, i am actually making a proposal to have sex with you. Grow up.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  15. Class. Real class.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  16. And the taxpayer loses.

    Why are judges allowed to cause us this kind of expense? When are judges held accountable for incompetence? When can we tar and feather the bastards?

    Smarty (32cee6)

  17. @12

    Oh, that’s not a “word”, it’s an acronym.

    It’s also not really that bad compared to the garbage Democrats routinely toss around.

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  18. summit

    Oh come off it, get off your high horse. No one here thinks you have never told anyone to ESAD. Give me a break.

    There is nothing more tedious than when a liberal suddenly pretends that he or she is a prude.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  19. Oh, that’s what it means. I’m blushing.

    Summit, if you post here, you kinda have to go with the flow with Doh and happy and others. I don’t always agree with them, but they’re not that bad.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  20. Ah, moral relativism. They talk that way. So it’s okay for us to talk that way, too. Hey, you want to talk and act like trash. That’s your prerogative.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  21. There is nothing more hypocritical when a democrap pretends to be against curse words also.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  22. Well I would say ‘the Wise Latina’ is nothing but, that Miguel Estrada was certainly a more worthy candidate, that’s why he was borked, back in the day.

    ian cormac (81c5c2)

  23. When can we tar and feather the bastards?

    That would contravene the U.N. Convention on Human Rights.

    So, let’s T&F the U.N.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (61abdc)

  24. Give me a break. I don’t want to fight with you. You seem like an honest poster. Doh may seem harsh, but he’s no KOS kid.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  25. I’m A KOS kid that is rich coming from someone who engages in hypocrisy like them.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  26. Summit

    > Ah, moral relativism.

    No, I am saying you are being a dishonest POS. You don’t actually believe what you are writing.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  27. @20

    Sure. I gave up trying to be better than libs a few years ago.

    I see no reason to abide by standards you won’t.

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  28. Whoops. AW disagrees.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  29. This is actually a great development. We are finally facing the inevitable full circle when it comes to modern reasoning against plain principle as expressed in the Constitution.

    The Commerce Clause is about to bite the liberals right in the butt. If we can just hold off on a new Justice until the GOP prez gets elected, we’ll have the votes to roll back constitutional Federal interventionism as we have known it since FDR.

    More fun will be had around abortion privileges. Science has now supported full life at 21 weeks. Full governmental protections can now kick in for the final tri-mester AND a complete ban of infanticide is likely to move forward.

    A new dawn is coming. Will we be around to witness it?

    Ed from SFV (7d7851)

  30. Aaron, saying its so ain’t going to make it so, and it ain’t going to make you feel better about yourself either. BTW, demonizing me by lying that I’m a liberal makes you only that much slimier.

    Classy, Aaron, classy.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  31. AW:

    But seriously, assuming summary judgment, does the city have any recourse to recover expenses?

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  32. Ag80– check out the Florida thread from earlier today. That may give you some insight why this one is also being hijacked.

    elissa (ac1977)

  33. ag80

    actually yes.

    in title VII cases, the prevailing party can recover reasonable attorneys fees.

    But that is assuming that the plaintiff can pay, in which case new haven is screwed.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  34. Aaron, Summit is an unabashed troll certainly not worth your time.

    He’s really quite pointless to engage.

    Anyway, permit me a facepalm at the ridiculousness of our present system of justice. Philosophers redivine the tea leaves.

    Even a genius cannot truly understand our laws anymore. It simply isn’t possible. What it takes to run a business or fire department is just too much these days. That’s great for accountants and the bar, but it’s not so great for businessmen who just want to apply a craft and make a living.

    I’m tired of a government that even thinks in terms of race. It’s just one of many abstractions that presents an unsolvable problem and an endlessly aggrieved society.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  35. summit

    ah, more concern trolling. you’re boring me.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  36. elissa: Thanks, I missed that.

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  37. I wasn’t referring ESAD… I’m just tired of women being labeled whores. Enough already. Stick to the very real issues that Sotomayor (and any other so called whores) present. That way you might appear smarter, too.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  38. A tort if you do, a tort if you don’t.

    Summit is extremely odd today.

    JD (318f81)

  39. AW:

    But, is there any good-faith argument under the law that says, “Hey, lawyer, the Supreme Court already decided this, why are you wasting the court’s time?”

    Are lawyers completely free to thumb their collective noses at the Supreme Court?

    Ag80 (9a213d)

  40. Snappy come-back there, Aaron. Yes m’am. LOL

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  41. The Sophists, called, they said knock it off;

    ian cormac (81c5c2)

  42. look calling Sarah Palin a word that rhymes with blunt is alright.

    But calling Sonia Sotomayor a manwhore is antiamerican.

    That is how the maoist mind works.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  43. That is unnecessary, Doh, unless you want to descend to the depths of a Maher and likeminded
    sorts.

    ian cormac (81c5c2)

  44. It is all taxpayer money so there is no limit on the amount to be disbursed. Bernanke said give me a helicopter and i will fix everything with free money. Free money is not an oxymoron in leftist lexicon.

    dunce (8dd87b)

  45. Doh–I think you can still call her Satanomayor.

    elissa (ac1977)

  46. Satanmayor is a wise latina like Helen Thomas is sexy.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  47. New Haven must be a really fun place to work…kind of like having summit around….

    flicka47 (426379)

  48. 😆 flicka your funny

    21 years older and wiser.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  49. This is a very Kafkaesque situation. Does New Haven want to go bankrupt defending one proposition or the other? Maybe they should dissolve the city and reorganize, and tell everyone there will be a volunteer fire dept with no chain of command- everyone bring your own filled bucket to toss on the fire.

    After the Left’s incredibly profane attack against Palin, they have no standing (to use a legal phrase) to complain about any name-calling.
    That said, no one needs to resort to name-calling to criticize Sotomayor’s record; people needed to jump to such phrases with Palin because at the time they didn’t know what else to say about a governor with an 80%+ approval rating who had beaten both the Dems and the entrenched Repubs.

    MD in Philly (cd9679)

  50. Dude this is connecticut where they voted for the liberal over Linda Mcmahon because they believe she personally killed Chris Benoit.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  51. The legal fiction here is that a fair test would not reach a racially disparate result. However in reality you can have a fair test or you can a racially equal result, but you can’t have both.

    It should be pretty fucking obvious.

    If a test were given on pineapple farming, Polynesians would outscore Scandinavians.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  52. Summit your a libtard.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  53. Maybe they should dissolve the city and reorganize, and tell everyone there will be a volunteer fire dept with no chain of command- everyone bring your own filled bucket to toss on the fire.

    There was a fire near my house today. Several houses were destroyed. As the airplanes flew over my house to put it out (it was a bad fire), some goofball on twitter is screaming about how in ‘Perry’s Texas they aren’t using federally approved encryption, risking lives!’

    Ah, the mentality of a bureaucrat. She went on about how federal grants demand the right encryption, while the planes and helicopters did all they could to put the fires out.

    They want to infest every little thing, and their need to nitpick will never end.

    But fires in Texas have been a huge problem, and it’s yet another problem the state government is doing an amazing job keeping under control. Amazing coordinated response.

    But they weren’t doing everything by some playbook written by some lobbyist in DC, I guess.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  54. Summit is extremely odd today.

    Comment by JD

    Tamandua is my guess for this one.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  55. A lot of this would just go away if the losing lawyer was required to pay all expenses out of his own pocket.

    Huey (ddf1a4)

  56. Tamandua is my guess for this one.
    Comment by Dustin — 8/15/2011 @ 8:48 pm

    You know I would have caught that by now, right? 😉

    Summit has consistently posted using the same name, no anonymizer, and commenting style. I hate to see him clash with people I respect, but he’s not dishonest. I think there’s some miscommunication combined with both a legitimate difference of opinion and a bad day. This is one of those times when it looks like a statistical hiccup has occurred and everyone should just let it go.

    Just my opinion, YMMV.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  57. The Legal system has always been prone to absurdity. The legal system of the Hittites was probably prone to absurdity. Even a legal system in which judges stuck strictly to interpretation based on text and precedent would produce absurdities …. often. This is why less law is better than more law, as a rule.

    I have said this before, elsewhere (and maybe here, though I don’t recall it) but it bears repeating; The problem isn’t that a government with the power to give you everything you want has the power to take everything you have. The problem is that such a government is necessarily so vast that it can squash you like a bug without meaning to …. or even noticing.

    It was decided some time back that it was a part of the duty of the State to make sure that all people were treated fairly. Not equally before the Law. Fairly. Anybody who didn’t see that that decision would inevitably lead to rulings like this had stars in their eyes, and their brain stuck in neutral.

    C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968)

  58. Comment by Dustin — 8/15/2011 @ 8:48 pm

    Ha Dustin. I agree. That was my first thought as well. The passive aggressive is the tell. Suck ups, double meanings, then out of control rages/zingers when challenged. I think Stash mentioned last week he has a bead on that one who has posted under several other names, too.

    elissa (ac1977)

  59. This be funny.

    S. Carter aka J-Z (786e37)

  60. Stashiu–
    Sorry my post crossed with yours. I hope you’re right (and you almost always are) but somehow I don’t think this is going to end well. When people consciously attack multiple commenters and attempt to hijack multiple threads that are addressing good topics–there’s usually a reason beyond someboidy having a bad day.

    elissa (ac1977)

  61. I’m irrational. I don’t know anything.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  62. Well Daley–of course. You’re not an Ivy Leaguer, silly.

    elissa (ac1977)

  63. This is one of those times when it looks like a statistical hiccup has occurred and everyone should just let it go.

    I’m totally cool with that. More drama is the last thing this blog needs.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  64. It also suggests that rather than taking the easy way out by quotas and the like that New Haven can and probably should engage in an aggressive program of developing African American firefighters to their fullest potential. So the affirmative action should be there, in the form of affirmatively finding black potential and developing it. Rather than ignoring what are more likely than not real differences in knowledge and ability, New Haven should instead work to erase those actual differences.

    Because what this is doing is distinguishing and separating a group of people by color, it seems discriminatory. And yet clearly there is the need to increase the knowledge and ability of some so that they too can progress. What a conundrum.

    Where do the lawsuits end in this? Everyone has a valid complaint…

    Dana (4eca6e)

  65. “It also suggests that rather than taking the easy way out by quotas and the like that New Haven can and probably should engage in an aggressive program of developing African American firefighters to their fullest potential. So the affirmative action should be there, in the form of affirmatively finding black potential and developing it. Rather than ignoring what are more likely than not real differences in knowledge and ability, New Haven should instead work to erase those actual differences.”

    I don’t see this working. If you try to improve one group they will claim unfair hardship as discrimination. If you just deny training to the better groups you are unfairly discriminating and should be sued. It is far easier to achieve equality by dragging down the better firefighters and far safer to just go with a quota and ignore superior motivation, achievement, and performance in favor of strict ethnic ratios. I think we have seen that few governments have had the integrity or courage to resist the safe path. The Federal government is still taking this path in judging banks on issuing loans, aren’t they?

    I think the only result of this kind of BS will be dumping tests or performance standards in favor of subjective evaluations and quotas. Or just much less government.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  66. The firefighters that were willing to work harder to do better had already done so. It was reflected in the tests. The ones who were not willing to study as hard for the tests are not going to cooperate with efforts to make them perform better or learn more.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  67. “Hey, you want to talk and act like trash.”

    In my caser it’s not a case of want, I just can’t control myself!

    :)

    Dave Surls (d12fb8)

  68. “No Matter What You Do, You Are Going to be Sued”

    That being the case, they might as well go ahead and do the right thing, which is to hire the best people possible, and to hell with what color they are.

    “When the examination results showed that white candidates had outperformed minority candidates…”

    Then just go ahead and hire the palefaces fer Chrissake.

    Dave Surls (d12fb8)

  69. I just can’t control myself!
    Comment by Dave Surls — 8/15/2011 @ 10:39 pm

    ::nodding head:: that damn impulse control. I seem to have come without that particular feature, too. 😉

    ppk_pixie (1df0c8)

  70. “Well Daley–of course. You’re not an Ivy Leaguer, silly.”

    elissa – You are correct that I did not lower my standards to the Ivy League for any of my degrees.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  71. Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/15/2011 @ 9:02 pm

    Actually, I had a good day.

    It was that little pack of jackals who had a bad day. :-)

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  72. 72.Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/15/2011 @ 9:02 pm
    Actually, I had a good day.
    It was that little pack of jackals who had a bad day.

    Comment by Summit, NJ —

    My observation, FWIW.
    When someone known for their fair-mindedness and generosity of heart steps in to try to clear up misunderstandings and bring reconciliation, to rebut that person is personally seen as bad manners and an effort to keep dissension alive just for dissension’s sake. Once this characteristic has been clearly displayed and confirmed, we generally take note and act “accordingly” (whatever “accordingly” is to each individual).

    MD in Philly (cd9679)

  73. the air very thin
    brain misfires and sh*t can fly
    up at the summit

    ColonelHaiku (d1f5ff)

  74. #73 – (yawn)

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  75. i think the woman is unlikely to be a wh..well you know as she is at best too old and ugly. it is certainly fair to call her a stupistupidlyd evil AA hack bad joke though.

    maximus (657dab)

  76. Summit is Froma Harrop.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  77. Ref comment by Dana — 8/15/2011 @ 9:29 pm
    “Because what this is doing is distinguishing and separating a group of people by color, it seems discriminatory. And yet clearly there is the need to increase the knowledge and ability of some so that they too can progress. What a conundrum.
    Where do the lawsuits end in this? Everyone has a valid complaint…”
    = = = = = =

    WHY is it gummint’s job (state, city, federal, whatever) to “raise up” the underperformers, anyway? Shouldn’t “he who hires” just be looking for the best hire-ee?

    Any why don’t the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons take some of their shakedown money and use it to establish training centers for those (or as Eric Holder said “my people”) who WANT to improve their skills and their earnings and their lives?

    Call me cranky, but when do we get to the end of stupid on the subject of group entitlement? NOBODY’s “equal” on everything. Some people are better at some things, others better at other things, that’s the way life is. Why is it a federal case every time?

    A_Nonny_Mouse (57cacf)

  78. The passive aggressive is the tell

    This struck me last night when I first read it.
    We had a commenter here in the past who was notorious for their Passive/Agressive mood swings who went by at least two names:
    The was “The Emperor”, and one which was short-handed to “lovey”, though they openly acknowledged the change from lovey to emperor, but the P/A remained, and “she” demonstrated many of the same traits we see today with “Summit”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (ce6d84)

  79. Any why don’t the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons
    because then they would be accountable for the outcome, and like most “hustlers” they can never be held accountable for that would be destructive to the image they have created for themselves.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (ce6d84)

  80. 79. Re: #61 The passive aggressive is the tell – Elissa

    This struck me last night when I first read it.
    We had a commenter here in the past who was notorious for their Passive/Agressive mood swings who went by at least two names:
    The was “The Emperor”, and one which was short-handed to “lovey”, though they openly acknowledged the change from lovey to emperor, but the P/A remained, and “she” demonstrated many of the same traits we see today with “Summit”.

    Comment by Another Drew – Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! — 8/16/2011 @ 11:28 am

    “Passive/Aggressive”, huh? LOL

    You and Elissa have degrees in psychology, do you?

    No? Then perhaps one or both of you took a college course in psychology?

    No? Then perhaps one or both of you read an article in Psychoogy Today?

    No? Then one can conclude that both of you have personality and character flaws which render you incapable of coping with alpha males, which could explain why both of you find yourselves in the untenable positions of leading pathetic lives, ya think?

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  81. Psychoogy Today(sic)

    I tried reading it, but it stunk up the out-house too badly.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (ce6d84)

  82. You accusing someone of leading a pathetic live is ironic.

    Are you gonna have a heart attack over me saying ESAD again?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  83. But, Hey!
    If it looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck, and quacks (and you certainly are quackers) like a Duck, it must be Summit, NJ.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (ce6d84)

  84. “…Then one can conclude that both of you have personality and character flaws which render you incapable of coping with alpha males, which could explain why both of you find yourselves in the untenable positions of leading pathetic lives, ya think?…”

    You know, I won’t go after elissa. And AD isn’t easily cowed. But that’s just my opinion. By all means, a big tough alpha male shouldn’t have a thing to fear.

    Show the world!

    Simon Jester (cdcfc2)

  85. Now, if you were an ALFA male, we might be impressed.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (ce6d84)

  86. “which render you incapable of coping with alpha males”

    Evidence of said alpha male please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  87. –Comment by daleyrocks — 8/16/2011 @ 8:25 pm–

    You weren’t paying attention. He showed us that insulting a fine lady anonymously on the internet showed us he had “balls”, remember?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  88. Now, now, you gossipy yentas, I meant that in the nicest way. :-)

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  89. “alpha male”

    Interesting. I have dogs. They’re fun to watch as they interact with one another. Naturally, the older ones are more dominant than the younger, but ohhh how the youngster likes to poke, prod, nudge and generally annoy my alphas. The oldsters tolerate it, sometimes they bat the goofy pup around. But its always the silly, non dominant critter that likes to stir up the nonsense.

    Funny, that.

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  90. An actual alpha would never feel compelled to claim to be an alpha.

    JD (318f81)

  91. “He showed us that insulting a fine lady anonymously on the internet showed us he had “balls”, remember?”

    Machinist – I think that is part of the alleged Ivy League education package.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. I would suggest that one not need a degree in psychology to recognize passive-aggressiveness; women excel at it, and can smell it from a mile away.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  93. 82. Psychology Today(sic)

    I tried reading it, but it stunk up the out-house too badly.

    Comment by Another Drew – Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! — 8/16/2011 @ 8:19 pm

    LOL. Why am I not surprised that you have an outhouse, goober?

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  94. I do feel like I have a subscription to Psycho Today lately.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  95. Gee, why do I suspect that one of you is a paranoid psychizophrenic and the rest are all sock puppets on a site that doesn’t get any traffic? Too funny.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  96. Gee, why do I suspect that one of you is a paranoid psychizophrenic and the rest are all sock puppets on a site that doesn’t get any traffic?

    Oh, you wound me, you really really do.

    Your mother is overweight.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  97. * schizophrenic *

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  98. Dustin,
    We’re all hacker sock puppets? Didn’t we just see this film?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  99. Summit, if you really don’t want to keep a reputation here of being a liberal troll, you might want to consider dialing the maturity up a bit.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  100. Why are you obsessed with outhouses?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  101. Sock puppet #100, don’t you ever laugh at yourself? I do. LOL

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  102. “on a site that doesn’t get any traffic?”

    Summit, NJ – Wait just a minute. You’re here. That’s all that matters, right? It’s all about you.

    Amirite or amirite?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  103. I do feel like I have a subscription to Psycho Today lately.

    Comment by Dustin — 8/16/2011 @ 9:13 pm

    How many times have I told you to not to buy Ron’s comic books? 😉

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  104. And you, sock puppet #105, are one slimy and very sick, little freak.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  105. Summit, I’m not a sock puppet. But you do seem to be a rather inane troll.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  106. Aw gee, sock puppet #107, you can dish it out, but you can’t take it.

    Boo, hoo, hoo, whining crybaby. Get bent, you old fart.

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  107. “Boo, hoo, hoo, whining crybaby. Get bent, you old fart.”

    Let’s Go Ivy!!!!

    Winning!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. Well, oh paranoid schizophrenic one and sock puppet yentas and jackals, good-night and have bad dreams. :-)

    Summit, NJ (75c9eb)

  109. Oh dear. I see Joizy City dropped in again. The foul emissions and air pollution arising from Joizy are especially noxious this evening. Call the EPA! There must be a regulation for that.

    elissa (ba6b85)

  110. There must be a regulation for that.
    Comment by elissa — 8/16/2011 @ 10:22 pm

    down here, we employ the “point and laugh” method. no annoying unions/govt numbskulls involved 😉

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  111. The only sex summit has is from his Michelle Obama blow up doll.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  112. I may have misjudged Summit. Damn. Hate it when that happens.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  113. Based on the original lawsuit description it sounds to me like New Haven needs to partner up with the Firefighters Union and come up with a better way to promote. It sounds like there was a racial bias in the test (with a yet to be clearly identified root cause) that resulted in lower scores for black firefighters. What New Haven should do nexxt is conduct a careful analysis of the test results, release the results of this examination, and then take appropriate actions.

    One possibility would be to identify those questions where the black firefighters scored poorly and then hold training courses in those areas open to all FF’s eligible to take the exams.

    If, on the other hand, the racial bias resulted from the extra courses that the high scorers took then New Haven should have make those courses a pre-requisite before allowing anyone to sit for the exam.

    Presumably all eligible FF are paid similarly so the course cost should be equally shared between those FF wishing to be promoted and the City.

    Regardless of any lawsuit, it does appear the City has work to do to correct a seemingly real problem. But first they must identify what caused the disparities and take action.

    GoDaddy (6ed79d)

  114. I may have misjudged Summit.
    Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/16/2011 @ 10:42 pm

    You were kind enough to give him the benefit of the doubt (and enough rope, so to speak).

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  115. Sir Stashiu* is always chivalrous and noble.

    *(see how much better that sounds)

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  116. Sounds like a lisp, and nobody wants that. Nice try though Sir. Mac. 😉

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  117. Sounds like a lisp, and nobody wants that. Nice try though Sir. Mac.
    Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/16/2011 @ 11:41 pm

    I think the periods between Sir, and Mac really emphasized the nuance and…distinction the honorific bestows.

    Don’t you agree, Thir Thathiu? *innocent look*

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  118. I thought I heard mischief back here.

    I don’t think they use “Sir” in Texas. Honorifics here are “Old Boy” or “Good Old Boy” or “Buddy”, or so I’ve heard.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  119. I should say the word “Sir” is not used as a title. Of course we are polite here.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  120. Don’t you agree, Thir Thathiu? *innocent look*
    Comment by ppk_pixie — 8/16/2011 @ 11:50 pm

    :eyeroll:

    Et tu? 😉

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  121. Et tu? 😉

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/17/2011 @ 12:25 am

    I’m all about the equality LOL

    And Sir Mac- darlin’ I’m from the south, I was properly drilled in the correct honorifics.

    Nice try, tho 😉

    ppk_pixie (901c40)

  122. “Nice try, tho ”

    :roll:

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  123. Summit ia probably one of Yelverton’s sockpuppets.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  124. there is no there there
    empty and devoid of Life
    down at the summit

    ColonelHaiku (d1f5ff)

  125. “No Matter What You Do, You Are Going to be Sued”

    That being the case, they might as well go ahead and do the right thing, which is to hire the best people possible, and to hell with what color they are.

    On the contrary, if they’re going to be sued either way, they may as well do as they wish, and discriminate in favour of blacks. Dave, you’re making the mistake of assuming that the city wants to do the right thing; but who do you think the city is? What do you suppose is the ethnic makeup of the city council? And what do you suppose is its political makeup? If there were no courts and no law, what do you think the city would do?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  126. It sounds like there was a racial bias in the test (with a yet to be clearly identified root cause) that resulted in lower scores for black firefighters.

    Um, why does it sound like that to you? Why can’t you accept the possibility that the white applicants did better at the test because they were better?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  127. If, on the other hand, the racial bias resulted from the extra courses that the high scorers took then New Haven should have make those courses a pre-requisite before allowing anyone to sit for the exam.

    Why should it do any such thing? It’s the applicants’ choice what preparations, if any, they wish to make for the test. Why is it the city’s business?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  128. One possibility would be to identify those questions where the black firefighters scored poorly and then hold training courses in those areas open to all FF’s eligible to take the exams.

    What about those questions, if any, where white applicants scored poorly? Why not hold training courses in those areas?

    The bottom line is, why do you care that the black applicants didn’t do well? Why should anyone except those applicants care? Why is it a bad thing if the racial makeup of the senior firefighters happens to be different from that of the junior ones? Who but a racist gives a s–t about such things?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  129. Wait a minute. I must be missing something very basic, because I could swear I read, just above, that the Supreme Court wrote “If, after it certifies the test results, the City faces a disparate-impact suit, then in light of our holding today it should be clear that the City would avoid disparate-impact liability”. Does that not mean what it sounds like? Isn’t this a direct instruction from the Supreme Court to all inferior courts not to entertain such a suit? So why is the 2nd Circuit ignoring that instruction? Could someone please explain what it is that I’m not seeing?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  130. OK, I’ve now read the 2nd circuit decision, and it does address this, at great length but with no substance. “Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” is how I’d describe the “reasoning”. The panel wanted to ignore the Supreme Court, so it did.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  131. OK, I’ve now read the 2nd circuit decision, and it does address this, at great length but with no substance. “Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” is how I’d describe the “reasoning”. The panel wanted to ignore the Supreme Court, so it did.

    Those judges should be impeached for defying the Supreme Court.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  132. The whole idea of disparate impact is nonsense on stilts, because it’s premised on the nonsensical assumption that race is irrelevant, and all people are equally likely to be good or bad at everything. Everybody knows that this is false. Some people are better than others at certain things, and a good deal of that difference is genetic, which means that race is very likely to affect a person’s odds of being good or bad at any given thing. An outcome to any test, of any kind, that is perfectly balanced as to race is unlikely, and is not particularly desirable. There is no reason to prefer one racial makeup to another; just pick the best people, and whatever makeup results is by definition the correct one at that moment.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  133. judges should be impeached

    Would that not require a political class that possessed something that passes for a backbone?

    IIRC, the last Federal Judge to be impeached now sits in the House of Representatives.
    Boy, they really hurt his career.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (1a601a)

  134. The bottom line is, why do you care that the black applicants didn’t do well? Why should anyone except those applicants care? Why is it a bad thing if the racial makeup of the senior firefighters happens to be different from that of the junior ones? Who but a racist gives a s–t about such things? Comment by Milhouse — 8/17/2011 @ 9:18 am

    First off it is Experienced Firefighters sitting for the exam, and not just some average Black, White, or Hispanic kid just out of High School. Presumably the test is just about Fire Department related issues. Observable dispersion of data in such a test should warrant additional examination.

    Secondly when data disperses, for whatever reason, there is an underlying explanation. If the data dispersed solely based on the race of the test taker then there seems to be issues that need correcting. Again these are experienced fellows and not just kids off the street.

    Finally it is in the best interest of the City to have the most qualified candidates in these senior positions. Consequently if there are outside courses that improve the skills of the applicants then it is in the City’s interest to foster interest in those courses. Such help should improve the skills of all and not just one racial group.

    Personally I don’t believe that a test should be sole decider in promotions…but that seems to be how New Haven does their promotions…

    GoDaddy (6ed79d)

  135. Secondly when data disperses, for whatever reason, there is an underlying explanation. If the data dispersed solely based on the race of the test taker then there seems to be issues that need correcting. Again these are experienced fellows and not just kids off the street.

    So what? Some of them are better than others. Why should it be noteworthy that the better ones have a different genetic background than the worse ones?

    Milhouse (ee8a5d)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.7322 secs.