Patterico's Pontifications

1/8/2011

Breaking: U.S. Representative Among 12 Shot in Tucson; Representative Read First Amendment During Reading of Constitution; UPDATE: Source Reports She Is Alive and In Surgery; Update: Cnn Confirms She is in Surgery; Update: AJC Says Federal Judge John Roll Dead (Update: Wounded!); UPDATE: Shooter Identified?; UPDATE: Obama Confirms Judge Roll Killed

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:10 am



Breaking news as we get word that U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords and 12 others have been shot:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was among as many as 12 people wounded in a shooting at a Tucson, Ariz., grocery store where she was holding a campaign event.

ABC affiliate KGUN-TV in Tucson reported that as many as 12 people had been shot, including Giffords. A law enforcement source told KGUN that the shooter was in custody.

Early reports are that she was shot in the head. No word on her condition.

Giffords is a moderate Blue Dog Democrat and is widely liked on both sides of the aisle. One interesting sidelight: she read the First Amendment during the House’s reading of the Constitution on Thursday, and was very excited about it:

“I just read the First Amendment!” Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, said gleefully as she exited the floor.

“I wanted to be here, I think it’s important,” Ms. Giffords said. “Reflecting on the Constitution in a bipartisan way is a good way to start the year.”

Facebook users can watch a video of it here.

And Aaron Worthing found this picture of Giffords with Speaker of the House John Boehner at her swearing in:

Caution and restraint are the watchwords of the day. Let’s hope she is OK.

UPDATE 11:11 a.m.: NPR says she and 6 others have died. Breaking news stories are sometimes wrong; let’s hope and pray this one is.

Oddly, aphrael points out that the story itself, under a headline saying she had been killed, claims her condition “was not immediately known.”

UPDATE 11:24 a.m.: Now NPR has removed the line about her condition not being known, and leaves the headline that she has died. I think we need to be cautious and wait for further reports.

UPDATE 11:26 a.m.: aphrael says CNN is also reporting that she has died.

UPDATE 11:30 a.m.: DCSCA says multiple sources are reporting the same thing.

Truly horrible. Luckily, we have Matt Yglesias to tell us that, even though we don’t know a thing about the shooter or his/her motives, it must have something to do with overheated political rhetoric.

Why don’t you just shut your trap and wait for the facts to come in, Matt? Most of us are still in shock and you’re already busy implying it was a political hit. Appalling.

UPDATE 11:49 a.m.: A local station denies the reports that she is dead:

LATE BREAKING: UMC officials confirm Rep. Giffords is in surgery. She has not been declared dead. **Please RT**

Again, this is why you always have to take early reports with a grain of salt.

Update by Aaron Worthing: As per Patterico’s admonition I won’t try to follow, Ping-Pong style, every update, but this seems pretty definitive that rumors of her demise were greatly exaggerated.  From Cnn:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is currently undergoing surgery for a gunshot wound to the head, a spokeswoman for the University Medical Center in Tucson said.

Nine patients were brought to the hospital, including a child. All of them are in either serious or critcial condition and are undergoing surgery, spokeswoman Darci Slaten said.

And this is new:

A federal judge was also among those shot, a law enforcement official said. It is not clear whether he was among those taken to the hospital.

Of course today is an object lesson on why breaking news stories are often wrong, so take that with a grain of salt, too.  By the way, why is Cnn keeping these people anonymous?  At least an explanation for why they are doing it should be given.

Update by Aaron Worthing: Take all of this with a grain of salt, but I figured this AJC blog was worth citing because it was the first to identify the federal judge allegedly shot, United States District Court John Roll, and the same article says he is dead.  So let’s say it is at least true that he was shot.  Which official then, is the target, and which was caught in the crossfire?  We can only speculate, which is why making political hay out of it is doubly stupid.

Update by Aaron Worthing: The AJC blog above has walked it back.  The judge isn’t dead, but seriously wounded.  Good news.

UPDATE BY PATTERICO 1:50 p.m. There are news reports identifying the suspect as Jared Loughner. A lot of interesting possible information regarding him is emerging, including an odd YouTube video:

Based upon the unusual name and location in Tucson, this appears to be a picture of the guy:

And he had a MySpace page, which has been taken down, but not before someone got a screenshot (link via Gabriel Malor’s twitter account):

All of this is highly speculative at this point, of course. Much more unfolding in real time in the comments. You should definitely look at this video, though. Very odd.

UPDATE BY PATTERICO: From Loughner’s MySpace page:

Name: Jared Lee Loughner
Channel Views: 271
Joined: October 25, 2010
Website: http://Myspace.com/fallenasleep
About Me: My name is Jared Lee Loughner!

Hometown: Tucson
Country: United States
Schools: I attended school: Thornydale elementary,Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College.
Interests: My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!
Movies: (*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)
Music: Pass me the strings!
Books: I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

And another video on his YouTube channel (not by him, but he apparently liked it) of a desert flag-burning by a guy in a Grim Reaper mask, as music blares “Let the Bodies Hit the Floor!”

Clearly this shooting is not the work of a crazed nutcase with a bizarre set of oddball beliefs. It has to be Sarah Palin’s fault!

UPDATE: The President has confirmed that Judge Roll was killed.

UPDATE: Seeing numerous reports that Rep. Giffords is conscious and can recognize her husband.

I have read that she was shot in the temple, with the shot exiting the forehead. This won’t be an easy recovery. But this is a wonderful report.

I have more on the human cost of today’s shootings here.

309 Responses to “Breaking: U.S. Representative Among 12 Shot in Tucson; Representative Read First Amendment During Reading of Constitution; UPDATE: Source Reports She Is Alive and In Surgery; Update: Cnn Confirms She is in Surgery; Update: AJC Says Federal Judge John Roll Dead (Update: Wounded!); UPDATE: Shooter Identified?; UPDATE: Obama Confirms Judge Roll Killed”

  1. Reports are she was shot in the head, which I find difficult to imagine surviving. NPR said she’d been killed, but then backpedaled, so it’s not clear.

    IN any event: even if she survives, this is not OK.

    Democracy fails if this becomes common.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  2. CNN is saying she’s in “serious condition”. One of her staffers is believed dead.

    Xmas (a79637)

  3. Reports are she was shot in the head, which I find difficult to imagine surviving.

    Happens all the time.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  4. Happens all the time.

    That astonishes me, but I’ll take it as true. :)

    aphrael (9802d6)

  5. The big question is:
    Who is the shooter, and what were his motives?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  6. Her husband, Mark Kelly, is an astronaut and active-duty military (source: Wikipedia).

    Pray for the family.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  7. CNN has confirmed she is dead :{

    This is a terrible day for America.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  8. Multiple sources reporting she has passed. So tragic. So senseless. So sad. Deepest condolences to her family and to all others injured.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  9. Aph

    > This is a terrible day for America.

    Exactly. I was working on this one when Patrick asked me to let him post on it. here’s what i planned to say, after showing the image of her being sworn in.

    That would be her posing with Beohner after being sworn in. And it highlights what is evil and undemocratic about this kind of thing. I don’t know Ms. Giffords from anyone. But what I know is that the people of her district chose her to represent them, to speak and vote on their behalf and even if she recovers the people of Arizona will most likely be denied that voice and vote until she recovers. One person vetoed the votes of all the people who chose her and that is wrong and evil, and yes, more serious than the average attempted murder.

    This is a dark day in america because the will of the people in her district has been vetoed.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  10. btw, patterico, i think that headline could stand to be streamlined a little.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  11. Good idea, Aaron. Just did so.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  12. CNN is doubling back on the report of her death. They say that there is a report that she’s currently at the hospital having emergency surgery.

    So…they have no idea.

    Xmas (a79637)

  13. Hospital refuses to confirm or deny anything but will have a news conference at 1.30 MST (per KTVU, a Tucson news station)

    aphrael (9802d6)

  14. Fox News is also confirming she died.

    Gawker interviews witness to the shooting:

    We spoke to an eyewitness, Steven Rayle, who was on the scene at the time of the shooting and helped to hold the suspect down while waiting for police. Here’s what he said:

    The event was very informal: Gifford had set up a table outside the Safeway and about 20-30 people were gathered to talk to her. The gunman, who may have come from inside the Safeway, walked up and shot Gifford in the head first, “point blank”. According to Rayle, who is a former ER doctor, Gifford was able to move her hands after being shot.

    After shooting Gifford, the gunman opened fire indiscriminately for a few seconds, firing 20-30 rounds and hitting a number of people, including a kid no older than 10 years old. Rayle hid behind a concrete pole and pretended to be dead. When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Gifford’s staff tackled him. Rayle helped hold the gunman down while waiting for the sheriff to arrive, about 15-to-20 minutes later. The EMS came about 30 minutes later. Rayle said he was “stunned” by how long it took medical help to arrive.

    The gunman was young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down, although he struggled at first. He was “not particularly well-dressed”; he didn’t look like a businessman, but more of a “fringe character,” Rayle said. The sheriff’s department arrived, arrested the gunman and cordoned off the parking lot.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  15. The city where I was born and raised has made headline news — for all of the wrong reasons. She is in surgery. There is NO OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION AT THIS POINT THAT SHE IS DEAD.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  16. It probably will turn out to be politically motivated considering it was a campaign event and both her and her staff were shot. I doubt it was a robbery.

    Jim (8de501)

  17. aph

    congressional law makes it hard to share news about a person’s medical condition. they literally have to get permission from the patient, or a legal proxy for the patient, which can be tough. its a noble idea taken to ridiculous levels.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  18. KGUN-TV, really?

    Wesson (dc314c)

  19. Icy Texan is right: both a local sherriff’s deputy and the hospital are saying she’s alive but in critical condition.

    Let’s hope her condition improves, she has a full recovery, and the gunman goes to jail for a long time.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  20. Patterico

    NPR writes:

    > Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head by a gunman at a public event in Tucson on Saturday. There are conflicting reports about whether she was killed.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

    My guess is people assumed it would be fatal, not realizing it was survivable. But that is just a guess.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  21. Reports continue to conflict on fatalities- CNN reporting six. Backgrounder- Giffords is/was married to Astronaut Mark Kelly, currently scheduled to command STS-134, Discovery, the last ‘scheduled’ shuttle mission. So, so tragic.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  22. KGUN-9 is the ABC affiliate in Tucson AZ.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  23. Aaron: and it’s much better to hold the news until the family has gotten there. It would suck if you find out your family member had died because you turned the radio on.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  24. and cnn isn’t even sure she was shot in the head anymore.

    > CNN could not confirm conditions for Giffords or any of the others wounded, but the Tuscon Citizen newspaper was reporting that Giffords was shot in the head.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

    So i think we have to mark it down is, “who knows if she is alive or dead?”

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  25. The heavy security cordon that’s been imposed around the hospital and the fact that they’re diverting patients elsewhere strongly suggests she’s still alive, too.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  26. @17- Yeah, local affiliate. How bizarre is that.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  27. This is sickening and appalling.

    It also makes me shudder to think how we’ll end up responding to such news in the future if truly bloody and ruthless events become as common in this society as they’ve become in the land south of Arizona. IOW, the risk of us becoming so desensitized and jaded that when dealing with horrific news we soon merely pause, then wince, and then go about our business as usual.

    Mark (411533)

  28. Mark: I think I”m finding it particularly disturbing because of the timing; a governor of Punjab province in Pakistan was killed earlier this week by one of his own bodyguards because of his support for repealing the death-penalty-for-blasphemy law.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  29. btw, to prove what a tool that yglesias is…

    on one hand, someone once shattered her office door during the health care debate…

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html?hpid=topnews

    on the other hand, she is an advocate of illegal immigration crackdowns.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_arizona_multiple_wounded.html

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  30. UPDATE 11:49 a.m.: A local station denies the reports that she is dead:

    LATE BREAKING: UMC officials confirm Rep. Giffords is in surgery. She has not been declared dead. **Please RT**

    Again, this is why you always have to take early reports with a grain of salt.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  31. aph good point about security.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  32. In reading the comments at Yglesias’s very inappropriate tweet, it would appear it is he who is inspiring the overheated political rhetoric.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  33. They’re not “diverting patients elsewhere,” aphrael. Northwest Hospital is physically closest to the crime scene. University Medical Center has a stronger trauma team. They are sending the more seriously wounded to UMC, utilizing the medical resources as best they can.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  34. Lord, let’s hope she still is alive and can somehow pull through.

    JVW (4463d3)

  35. Icy Texan: something one of the babbling reporters on KGUN-9 said suggested that some patients who would otherwise have gone to UMC are being redirected elsewhere.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  36. Comment by Mark — 1/8/2011 @ 11:48 am

    On the other hand, there was no mass “man in the street” response to the events of 9/11, and that was remarked upon as the response of a civilized society.

    We have to remember that anybody can be killed if the killer is determined enough, and disregards his/her own security.
    This comes close to the assassination of Benazir Bhutto in that it occurred in a very public place, but at least she had a (so-called) security squad; but is highly suggestive of the day-to-day occurrances we hear about in Mexico, where it seems no politician is safe.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  37. I’m going to my son’s basketball game.

    Aaron, feel free to update the post if there is something DEFINITIVE that changes what we know. But let’s tread VERY CAUTIOUSLY. As I said at the outset, these early reports are often mistaken and people need to understand that at all times.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  38. No one knows, in the fog of the moment, it is a tragedy beyond measure, for her family, for those
    of her staffs, all those struck by the gunman.

    narciso (6075d0)

  39. KOLD is reporting she’s alive and in surgery…

    And CNN has someone on the phone saying the Congresswoman is in surgery.

    Xmas (a79637)

  40. Again, this is why you always have to take early reports with a grain of salt.

    In our 24/7 news cycle, the desperate push to be *first* is clear. Unfortunately it can result in drawing very wrong conclusions.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  41. Look, Dana, we don’t know the motives yet, but here’s an example of some rather standard overheated political rhetoric from the right:

    pssst,HankBondJr, you should realize that WE are awake now; Dr. Milton’s excellent commentary clearly points out that our country is in sad shape currently BECAUSE of 46 years of Dems-libs-progressives-socialists-and unfortunately we can even say, communists, but whatever they are called, we WERE sleeping while they ran amuck for 46 years! AND, with the sad shape that we are in, WE can boil “you all” (our adversaries to liberty) down to 2 categories; either “you” are: 1) DUPED or 2) EVIL; and I will explain both: 1) if you are still believing that the Dems-libs-communists really care about the individual, then you are ignorant of the facts, in spite of all your opportunities to learn, and thus you are a DUPE. Please know that you are being played by the communists. They just loveeee their liberal DUPES, to be their “boots on the ground” and they have them all all levels of the government and the private sector, and at all levels of intelligence. Nonetheless, DUPES are closed to learning the facts; but they can become UN-DUPED at anytime. 2) If you actually know the facts and you still spew the garbage which you do at your postings, then you are EVIL. To knowingly twist the facts as you do is pure and simple EVIL. Which are you? DUPED or EVIL?

    Don’t dispute, just check out Paul Kengor’s book Duped. You’ll see all you need to see and if you can be salvaged, you will be Un-Duped. His facts are footnoted and indisputable, and they are scary.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/7/buck-up-and-stop-obamacare

    Jim (8de501)

  42. If I may share my personal knowledge, having been born, raised, and lived 30+ years of my life in Tucson, the call letters for the local ABC (and apparently CNN) tv affiliate, KGUN, were intentionally chosen — way back in the day — to reflect a wild west and western movie connotation.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  43. Giffords apparently has been sensible about getting tough on illegal immigration. It will be even more tragic and grotesque if her assailant — assuming he had political motives — was responding not to something like that but to something in the other direction (ie, ultra-rightism?).

    Ironically, this was just posted on the Drudgereport near the story on the shooting of Giffords:

    ACAPULCO, Mexico (AP) – Police found the bodies of 15 slain men, 14 of them headless, on a street outside a shopping center in the Pacific coast resort of Acapulco on Saturday. The victims, all of whom appeared to be in their 20s, were discovered in an area not frequented by tourists.

    Handwritten signs left with the bodies were signed by “El Chapo’s People”—a reference to the Sinaloa cartel, headed by drug lord Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman—said Fernando Monreal Leyva, director of investigative police for Guerrero state, where Acapulco is located.

    Mark (411533)

  44. Patterico

    Agreed, until we get something for sure, we will be just bouncing around like a ping-pong ball.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  45. A friend of mine is an ER doc in Tucson. If she is attending to Ms. Giffords then at least I know the Congresswoman is in the best of hands.

    JVW (4463d3)

  46. 34. Icy Texan: something one of the babbling reporters on KGUN-9 said suggested that some patients who would otherwise have gone to UMC are being redirected elsewhere.
    Comment by aphrael — 1/8/2011 @ 11:55 am

    — Yes, because they are utilizing the available medical resources as best they can. Three other hospitals in the city — St. Joseph’s, St. Mary’s, and Tucson Medical Center — have helipads where lifeline helicopters can land. UMC has the highest regarded trauma center, and Northwest is the shortest distance away from the scene of the shooting.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  47. ______________________________________

    The following was posted by a presumably humane, compassionate, caring liberal. The timing is ironic and the message speaks for itself:

    DailyKos, January 6, 2011:

    I am from the Tucson area and live in Congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords’ district. I worked like a dog for her elections when she was in the Arizona House, surrounded by rightwing nutcases….i have given Gabrielle Giffords THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars in both good times and bad times for me financially.

    She wins her re-election and told me she was still a supporter of Speaker Pelosi at her victory party. We talked about how Nancy Pelosi was a successful woman and accomplished oh so much in just four years as Speaker. Today, just a little while ago, I saw on Andrea Mitchell Reports…that Giffords voted AGAINST Nancy Pelosi as our Minority Leader.

    Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is dead to me now. I won’t lift a finger, make one phone call, nor will i EVER vote for her in the future. And why did she do this? Giffords never told me she was conservative Democrat.

    Mark (411533)

  48. “Happens all the time.

    That astonishes me, but I’ll take it as true.”

    Action movies are different than real life. I remember one case about a man who shot himself with a .25 pistol (granted, small calibre), didn’t die, and then went down to eat dinner with his family with a mild headache, and went to hospital later.

    What a terrible thing to have happened. Just senseless. And many people dead or injured aside from her, including at least one child. Even if a person is so deluded they think an assassination in a democracy make sense, would it be too much to ask them to retain enough of a sense of ethics that randomly killing people, including kids, is still wrong?

    I suppose it would be too much to ask. And as Patterico points out, we don’t know what the motive was. That even could have been the motive, for all I know.

    Her husband, while undoubtedly an unusually strong man, must be having a hard time of it now, as must all the friends, family, and surviving victims.

    Tragic.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  49. mark

    i saw that. i am worried that this is by the gunman himself. But that is pure speculation, obviously. yes, you can say “you’re dead to me” and not mean it as a threat. but it can also be a threat.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  50. Fox radio unofficialy said that a federal Judge was also shot? Weird that a public event has such conflicting reports and wild speculation

    Prayers for everyone involved

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  51. Eric

    see the latest update. cnn says it, too, but no one seems to know who the judge was.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  52. Mark, that’s a pretty big jump to go from that post to suggesting that it was written by the person who shot her.

    Jim (8de501)

  53. @Dana/Aaron- shades of the day Reagan was shot… recall ABC’s Frank Reynolds grousing on air to ‘let’s get it right’ regarding Jim Brady. About 20 years ago A&E rebroadcast the realtime NBC News feed from 11/22/63 when JFK was slain and watching the the assembly of a major, breaking news story- blemishes, errors, accuracies et al., is a fascinating exercise and tests the resources of a news organization to the fullest.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  54. Mark, it’s obvious that this was pay-back by Nancy for voting against her (Heh!).

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  55. The hospital just pushed off their press conference for fifteen minutes.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  56. The AP is reporting that one of her aides has died.

    Jim (8de501)

  57. I noticed some horrible comments about this shooting at another blog. Won’t link and won’t even say which partisanship the commenters held.

    anyone who tries to score political points with this is disgusting. Period. If this turns out to be that Kos diarist from the left, it won’t mean Obama is at fault for his ‘punch back’ rhetoric, nor the conservative converse.

    What a tragedy.

    Giffords is not exactly where I am politically, but she’s really an excellent American. Her story is amazing and she’s one of the best Democrats in our congress. It’s hard to believe a Conservative would find her worth of murder, and it’s hard to believe a Liberal would, either. She’s a reasonable, fairly moderate, extremely impressive human being. I pray she survives, and I pray the others shot survive and the family of the dead find some comfort I’m unable to come up with.

    Whoever did this was an absolute bastard, possibly mentally ill, certainly evil. We just had proof last November, or the November of 2008, that violence is simply not necessary. We have elections that change power, and anyone who thinks violence is a good way to handle politics because of some perceived outrage is actually betraying democracy itself.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  58. is a fascinating exercise and tests the resources of a news organization to the fullest.

    Comment by DCSCA</blockquote

    What a ghoul. And clearly a troll. As I said earlier, this pathetic specimen shows a lot of joy at polluting threads and giggles at its pointless comments. It thinks it's hilarious to stir up some hate.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  59. CNN just reported the city manager says Gifford’s expected to survive surgery.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  60. According to Rep. Raul Grijalva, blame should be shared by the hate, anger and bitterness of our pubic debate.

    Get ready, there going to blame the Tea Party.

    Arizona Bob (e8af2b)

  61. “Fox radio unofficialy said that a federal Judge was also shot? Weird that a public event has such conflicting reports and wild speculation”

    Not really. They were reporting widespread murders and cannibalism in New Orleans. I think it’s reckless how the media badly misreports in the beginning, but I suppose some “yahoo” (no political connotation intends) says something or other, and they have nothing else to go on, so they report that, and it’s later disconfirmed. That’s assuming the media is honest.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  62. Of the political assassinations in America in the 20th-Century, I can only think of one (that of MLK, Jr.) that could be considered to have been perpetrated by someone from the “Right” (though I would never consider The Klan an organization of the “Right” considering its roots as the paramilitary arm of the Southern Democrat Party).

    All the others, from McKinley to Reagan, seem to have been perpetrated by individuals more closely identified with the Left.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  63. AB, yes Grijalva has always been so moderate and circumspect in his public comments.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  64. Arizona Bob: I can say there’s something wrong with the hate, anger, and bitterness of our political debate, and intend to point it at members of both the left and the right; there’s plenty of hateful, disturbing, angry rhetoric on both sides.

    The press conference just got pushed off again by another fifteen minutes.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  65. Rep. Giffords sounds like a very conservative Democrat, especially when it came to securing the border.

    Arizona Bob (e8af2b)

  66. Patterico: By the way, why is Cnn keeping these people anonymous? At least an explanation for why they are doing it should be given.

    Because nobody knows yet (except maybe the police, who have a policy not to comment on ongoing investigations). The one eyewitness statement I’ve read so far says that the shooter was silent during the struggle to subdue him, and remained silent while he was being held down until the sheriff arrived.

    We may have to wait a day or two before learning the shooter’s motives.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  67. Federal Judge John M. Roll — dead.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  68. It sounds like she was reflecting, to a large part, the views of the residents of her District who see the damage done by an Open-Borders Policy in their everyday lives.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  69. The shooter is 21 years old, according to a local report.

    Arizona Bob (e8af2b)

  70. There is such a thing as hateful rhetoric that deserves criticism, but the idea that mainstream leaders inspired this is incorrect, and those who are already trying to score those points are disgusting. Not as awful as the shooter, but far worse than those they are criticizing.

    The real catalyst could be when fruitcakes decide to ‘punch back’ at their enemies for this violence. Blaming mainstream leaders for the violence is pretty inciting then.

    Makes a lot more sense to simply condemn violence itself, not link it to commentary that isn’t very plainly evil, and move on. There are no political points to score off this, except with awful people.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  71. Occasionally I’ve heard normally intelligent people comment that our nation and politics are the most polarized and violent since the civil war. I’ve said to them, “You may want to bone up on your American history, pal. 1968 was that year: political assassinations, civil unrest, racial unrest, violent clashes at the Democratic National Convention, college campuses on fire, Viet Nam casualties and protests.” The most horrible single year for our country’s stability in my lifetime’s memory.

    Please God, do not let us ever repeat that awful time. Today’s events in AZ are very troubling when viewed in that context.

    elissa (43095c)

  72. Sheriff’s Dept press conference said 18 total victims, multiple search warrants issued.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  73. elissa, that is my fear too. One death leads to a response murder leads to more, and soon you have legitimate instability. A lot of people are having trouble, confidence in the government is extremely low, and the ability to say disturbing things to the like minded has never been greater.

    It’s not that those laying blame don’t understand this. They just don’t care.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  74. Robin, fair enough, but i wrote that update, not patterico.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  75. Head of the UMC trauma program, in press conference, says:

    * ten patients at UMC
    * one died
    * five in critical condition
    * five still in surgery
    (critical/surgery clearly overlap)

    * congresswoman is still alive; she is in critical condition; neurosurgeons have finished operating; optimistic about recovery, she was lucid and able to follow commands before surgery.

    * she was shot in the head, one time, through and through on one side, shot went through her bed

    * the person who died was a young child, about nine years old

    aphrael (9802d6)

  76. Guy got a two-inch crowbar through one temple and out the other and survived. Another guy did not know about a Japanese bullet in his heart for forty years. The human body is an amazingly survivable thing.

    nk (db4a41)

  77. AW: Whoops; thanks for the correction. My eyes had skimmed right over the “Update by Aaron Worthing” text (in bold, even!) so I scrolled up to the post’s tagline to see who had written it.

    As I’ve just demonstrated, even when you try to get details right, you can make mistakes. :-)

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  78. Anyone who tries to make something out of a Daily Kos diary is going to get the rejoinder that Sarah Palin put a bulls eye over Giffords’s district (which she did).

    So I would lay off the speculation.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  79. aphrael –

    * she was shot in the head, one time, through and through on one side, shot went through her bed

    That last is a pretty obvious typo, but I don’t know what it was supposed to be. Also, “through and through on one side” is confusing me. Could you expand/clarify?

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  80. aph

    which contradicts the story that the judge is dead.

    mind you, i presume you are being accurate and the hospital would know, so…

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  81. This is horrible. Respect to everyone for their responses. Stop trying to lay blame until we know any facts. There is no reason to believe this was caused by any kind of rhetoric.

    EricPWJohnson (2b9678)

  82. Reports are she was shot in the head, which I find difficult to imagine surviving. NPR said she’d been killed, but then backpedaled, so it’s not clear.

    I took my medical students to the neuro ward at County a few years ago to examine patients with neurological findings. One of them was a guy who attempted suicide by putting the gun to his temple and pulling the trigger. He wound up with the bullet in his frontal sinus and powder burns. It was an interesting case for the students to interview. All he really did was rupture an eardrum and get a terrible headache. No permanent damage.

    Mike K (568408)

  83. was sockpuppeting yesterday. Sorry Eric.

    oops Chris Hooten (2b9678)

  84. Robin: sorry, “shot went through her brain.”

    “through and through on one side” is the phrasing used by the head of the trauma program.

    in context, “through and through” i think means the bullet entered and exited. “on one side” means, it was on one side of the head, although he refused to indicate which direction the bullet had come from, citing vague “forensic concerns”.

    6pm CST sherriff’s briefing is coming ahead.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  85. Patterico – Democrats used target symbology in their campaign planning as well. I would tell anyone raising either point to STFU.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  86. About the judge:
    This AZCentral report from 2009 indicated that during a period of intense debate over immigration, he and others had received death threats.

    In February, when U.S. District Judge John Roll presided over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher, the Marshals Service was anticipating the fallout.

    When Roll ruled the case could go forward, Gonzales said talk-radio shows cranked up the controversy and spurred audiences into making threats.

    In one afternoon, Roll logged more than 200 phone calls. Callers threatened the judge and his family. They posted personal information about Roll online.

    “They said, ‘We should kill him. He should be dead,’ ” Gonzales said.

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-roll-2011-1?sailthru_m=h2n#ixzz1ATrDGsRw

    Jim (8de501)

  87. Aaron – i’m reporting there what the guy at the hospital said. But note, the sherriff’s briefing said 18 victims, the hospital said 10 went there; is possible that other victims went elsewhere.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  88. Yes Patterico, because there is a list of libertarians/conservatives who have, in the last three years, committed acts of terror/violence against their “targets”, and not a single case of members of the far left doing something like that.

    Unless you count the Discovery Channel guy, The dude who crashed his plane in Texas, the nut-job in Denver during the campaign, the shots fired at the homes of members of Congress, the SEIU mob in front of that banker’s home…

    I’m still waiting for a decent list of people who took Palin’s list, and went and did anything besides vote.

    [Why are you acting like I am trying to blame Palin? I thought I was very clear about why I pointed that out. — P]

    The Departed (d027b8)

  89. Has anyone done a headcount of the Joooos?

    Just askin’

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  90. An evil vicuous, violent attack. A 9-year old child is dead.

    Fox reporting a 2nd suspect is in custody, though not clear if for questioning or a criminal suspect.

    Won’t dignify the suspect with his name, but no matter what he is an evil bastard who deserves the ultimate penalty.

    Bugg (996c34)

  91. It is being reported that this guy is the shooter…

    He seems like…

    Well, he seems to be completely nuts.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  92. Daleyrocks, she is Jewish, according to several media reports.

    Last thing I’ve seen from CNN and other media outlets: six dead, including the judge, an aide and a kid.

    Shooter is 21 or 22 years old, may have been a vet and has a real creepy You Tube video:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

    Jim (8de501)

  93. _________________________________________

    i am worried that this is by the gunman himself.

    Aaron, my hunch is that the commentator from Kos was merely voicing his unhappiness about the person who represents him in Congress. The timing of his blog entry and use of “dead to me” were merely odd coincidences in light of today’s shooting.

    What I don’t think is coincidental is the media purposefully resisting to include in their innumerable crime reports a flat-out description of a suspect. It’s gotten to the point that I bet the MSM is increasingly hesitant about describing even the gender of a suspect.

    After all, notice how the US military, no less, treated someone like Nidal Hassan right up to the day of his murderous rampage.

    So unless I’m overlooking a particular news story — quite awhile since the assault first occurred — something as basic as the description of the killer’s racial/ethnic background still hasn’t been revealed.

    Mark (411533)

  94. It is being reported that this guy is the shooter…

    Can we avoid the passive tense? Where is it being reported?

    Kman (26c32e)

  95. aph

    the judge is alive, the ajc says.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  96. This guy’s probably the shooter.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  97. AP says that the judge is dead based on a report by the Marshall:

    http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13808253

    Jim (8de501)

  98. Based on that youtube video,if that is the shooter, he’s a complete fruitcake.

    Bugg (996c34)

  99. Mark, it’s been reported that he’s 22 years old and white. His You Tube video (as nuts as it is) says he was in the service.

    Jim (8de501)

  100. Kman,. google the name “Jared Loughner” instead of criticizing ‘passive voice’ like an absolute douchebag. What are you, 95 years old? do you really not understand how to find information online yet?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  101. KMan: Politico, for one.

    Fox News Chicago says the US Capitol Police have IDd the shooter in custody as Jared Loughner.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  102. I just got spam filtered for my URLS in my response to KMan.

    It’s been reported by Politico, and Fox News Chicago says he Capitol Police have said the defendant in custody is Jared loughner.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  103. Patterico – Democrats used target symbology in their campaign planning as well. I would tell anyone raising either point to STFU.

    I would too. But that Daily Kos diary is no more or less inflammatory than the bulls eyes. Political rhetoric is not responsible for the actions of madmen and I am trying to explain to those on our side that if we strain to find a lefty to blame for this we will have it thrown back in our faces.

    Don’t think for a second I am saying Sarah Palin is responsible for this. What I am saying is that the other side will. We have to remain principled and cautious, not falling for inaccurate reports OR cheap blame games.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  104. Already I see the Sarah Palin crosshairs imagery used to attack her as inciting violence. I hope those offended find it even more disturbing that John Kerry joked to Bill Maher about assassinating President Bush:

    Maher: You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.
    Kerry: Or, I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  105. http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=13808224

    More on the suspect.

    ————————–

    Jim (8de501)

  106. This appears to be a photo of the guy.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  107. Kman,. google the name “Jared Loughner” instead of criticizing ‘passive voice’ like an absolute douchebag.

    Googling it isn;t irrelevant. It would be helpful to know the source of the information that “Jared Laughner” is involved.

    Kman (26c32e)

  108. You could click the links, Kman.

    nk (db4a41)

  109. Googling it isn;t irrelevant. It would be helpful to know the source of the information that “Jared Laughner” is involved.

    Comment by Kman

    Why does it matter to you where departed got the information? If you clicked his link, you get the name. If you type the name into google, you get a large number of major news sources discussing his supposed involvement.

    This isn’t complicated.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  110. Provided by The Departed and Patterico.

    nk (db4a41)

  111. Oh never mind. Kman wants to be a petty little snot, and nothing I explain to him will improve his attitude.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  112. Patterico, I’ve got to disagree with you. Yes, ultimately the killer is the one responsible, but people with mental and emotional problems can be triggered by overheated rhetoric.

    Jim (8de501)

  113. A testy bunch today.

    Kman (26c32e)

  114. From another Kos diary:

    New Arizona gun law allows concealed weapons without permit
    by Joan McCarter
    Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 12:12:17 PM PST

    In horrific timing, Arizona govenor Jan Brewer just signed a new law lifting restrictions on concealed weapons.

    They miss the point entirely. Having it be “illegal” to carry a concealed weapon would not have stopped this man from carrying a concealed weapon and shooting 19 or so people. It would have allowed more people to be carrying weapons so one or more of them could have shot Loughner.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  115. The most incredible things can be survived. A friend of mine who’s an E.R. doctor in the Dallas area told me of the most incredible shooting he’s personally seen someone survive (he didn’t see the shooting itself, but he saw the patient at the hospital and got the details from the doctor who’d treated him when he first came in). The victim was shot in the face point-blank.

    The precise details of what happened are NOT for the squeamish, so I’ve rot13’d them — if you are grossed out by descriptions of injuries, do NOT decrypt the rest of this post. If you want to read on, go to http://rot13.com/, paste in the below text, and hit “Cypher” to read how the victim survived.

    Gur ohyyrg ragrerq guebhtu bar rlr fbpxrg, orgjrra gur rlronyy naq gur obal evz bs gur rlr fbpxrg. Vg gura fxvzzrq nebhaq gur evz bs gur fxhyy, orgjrra gur fxhyy naq gur oenva, zhpu yvxr n onfxrgonyy pvepyrf gur evz bs gur ubbc (gubhtu cebcbegvbanyyl zhpu fznyyre, bs pbhefr). Vg svanyyl rkvgrq guebhtu gur bgure rlr fbpxrg. Obgu gur ivpgvz’f rlrf jrer ehvarq naq ur jnf oyvaqrq sbe yvsr, ohg ur fhssrerq ab bgure vawhel, naq cnegvphyneyl ab oenva qnzntr, sebz orvat fubg cbvag-oynax va gur snpr.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  116. I would too. But that Daily Kos diary is no more or less inflammatory than the bulls eyes. Political rhetoric is not responsible for the actions of madmen and I am trying to explain to those on our side that if we strain to find a lefty to blame for this we will have it thrown back in our faces.

    So true. I believe that far too much was made of Lee Harvey Oswald’s flirtation with communism and pro-Soviet and pro-Castro tendencies. And I won’t even go into the idea that he was an agent of some military cabal with ties to Lyndon Johnson. To me, Oswald was just a deluded nutjob. I am guessing that the same will be true of this shooter, regardless of his political leanings.

    JVW (4463d3)

  117. Kman: this is the kind of circumstance under which people who care about politics and who love their country are likely to be somewhat testy. At a minimum.

    Me, I’m angry. But that’s only to be expected.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  118. Kman: Obviously you aren’t following anything on the news. Fox News is reporting that Jared Loughner is in custody. And they are reporting Judge Roll has died.

    This is not the time to act the fool, Kman.

    PatAZ (537b43)

  119. Oh sweet irony. Kman plays grammar cop while, simultaneously, Shep Smith on FOX is reading screeds by the alleged gunman, in which the suspect complains about — wait for it — a lack of grammar skills on the part of the public.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  120. P.S. Just to clarify, that’s not a recent incident I mentioned in post #108; it happened in San Diego about 20-30 years ago.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  121. Earlier today for a couple hours it seemed that NPR was taking the lead on the shooting story (including reporting much that was apparently quite incorrect) and was being linked by a number of other sites. One does not normally think of NPR as breaking news or for having the resources for getting first dibs at sensitive information like AP or CNN do. Just curious–anybody have any theories or insight on this anomaly?

    elissa (43095c)

  122. A testy bunch today.

    Comment by Kman

    Typical of you to carp at someone’s use of passive voice, refuse to click links or use simply ways to learn, and pause your anger to complain that others are testy.

    We all know who these ‘don’t be a ghoul and score points of this’ are meant for. They’re meant for people like you.


    Robin, nk, you’re right. People survive amazing things. I’m amazed this woman has managed so far. I’ll keep her family in my prayers. She doesn’t have children, but still has an amazing family. Her husband is an astronaut.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  123. But, sadly, look for the No Labels group to try to mine this for credibility.

    JVW (4463d3)

  124. DRJ:

    There are people asserting that this is the guy’s YouTube channel. Not sure if they are right or not, but look at what you see around 2:58:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4&feature=share

    Patterico (c218bd)

  125. Whether or not NPR has breaking news depends on their local tv or radio affiliates. Breaking news in the bay area, for example, often comes from NPR, because KQED has a large news staff.

    I don’t know about their Tucson affiliate but it seems possible, at least, that they do, as well.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  126. Or just play it in this comment:

    Patterico (c218bd)

  127. ________________________________________

    But that Daily Kos diary is no more or less inflammatory than the bulls eyes.

    I found the Daily Kos blog entry interesting because it gave greater context to Giffords. IOW, we’re aware that she’s not just a member of the Democrat Party, but that she aligns herself in a certain way in that party and on the ideological spectrum. Even more worthwhile to know such things when major public figures like, say, Michael Bloomberg a few months ago blabbed that he suspected a Tea Partier was behind the attempted bombing of Times Square.

    Also, because even in the age of instant communication — of the Internet and cell phones — it has taken quite a long time to obtain semi-detailed information on the killer. It’s almost like we’re still living in the era of the telegraph.

    Mark (411533)

  128. Daley: Interesting that you say that, as Rep. Giffords is Jewish.

    PatAZ (537b43)

  129. I think Patterico means 2:48.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  130. Comment by elissa — 1/8/2011 @ 1:37 pm

    Elissa, Tucson is a university town, so it stands to reason that they have a strong NPR affiliate. Since this was a local event, and since (frankly) it involved a Democrat member of Congress, it isn’t surprising that KUAZ would have a reporter on the scene, not expecting of course that something like this would happen.

    JVW (4463d3)

  131. Oh, my.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  132. Dustin, at 2.48 he’s talking about the definition of terrorist. at 2.55-2.59 or so he talks about how he’s an army recruit.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  133. Dustin, it’s quite alright.

    I am more than used to doughe-baggery.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  134. Why do people think someone’s complete insanity is a mitigating factor in whether they should be executed or not?

    Christoph (8ec277)

  135. The link with the Marine of the same last name is pretty dubious. For the same person to have been a Marine in late 2004 early 2005,a 22-year old today would have been 14/15 then. Impossible. Hopefully any Marine who unfortuantely shares the same first initial and last name is not being tarred with this. Some indication he was in a military training program, but the “veteran” stuff seems very ulikely.

    Bugg (996c34)

  136. I find it unlikely that this guy made it all the way through Army Boot. He seems the sort that would either spend his full 4 years in bootcamp, or get sent home after week 3.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  137. MEPS is where you are processed for entry training, pick an MOS, sign some official enlistment papers, etc. My MEPS was in the Houston Downtown Post Office (a large older building).

    The comment about how it’s just an ad hom to call him a terrorist was interesting.

    For an Army recruit, it’s still ‘impressive’ in a dry sense that he was able to shoot that many people in a short time. Any idea what weapon he used?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  138. Kman: Obviously you aren’t following anything on the news. Fox News is reporting that Jared Loughner is in custody.

    Yeah, NOW they are. But when the comment was first posted here, I hadn’t seen it anywhere in the MSM. That’s why I asked for a source because I wasn’t interested in rumor. Most people here are pretty good about making links….

    Not terribly unreasonable…

    Kman (26c32e)

  139. I find it unlikely that this guy made it all the way through Army Boot. He seems the sort that would either spend his full 4 years in bootcamp, or get sent home after week 3.

    Comment by The Departed

    Agreed 100%. Two things will make it difficult to graduate from Basic Training. One is simply being unhealthy, but the main problem is problems with authority. This guy would have a very hard time succeeding in the military. Though perhaps he made it through.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  140. Since her name has come up, here is Sarah Palin’s official statement from Facebook:

    My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona.

    On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

    – Sarah Palin

    JVW (4463d3)

  141. That’s why I asked for a source because I wasn’t interested in rumor. Most people here are pretty good about making links….

    Not terribly unreasonable…

    I googled his name before you asked about it (it’s common sense).

    Many major publications had information. You actually were terribly unreasonable to reject that, asking for something “helpful”.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  142. @58- Put down the mirror– and try decaf. Somewhat inapproriate if not surprising coming from you— and on this thread given the seriousness of unfolding events. Clearly you lack the professional experience or personal capacity of comprehending how rolling coverage of a realtime news story is assembled and reported. And really, to begin spinning/characterizing this tragedy in any way, shape or form at this point is inappropriate as well. Authorities have been pretty mum about the shooter and any possible motives.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  143. Gabriel Malor on Twitter linked this screenshot from Loughner’s MySpace page (since removed).

    There is a picture of a gun.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  144. “Dustin, at 2.48 he’s talking about the definition of terrorist. at 2.55-2.59 or so he talks about how he’s an army recruit.”

    Right after that he starts talking about the constitution.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  145. @70- Hypocrite.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  146. Saw a Fox reporter say this had to be an automatic weapon to get off so many rounds so quickly, which is not really true. A semi pistol with a fully-loaded magazine with a round chambered can be emptied very quickly with a minumum of training, even might allow for a fresh magazine. And if he was able to get so close to his targets, aiming wasn’t really an issue.

    Based on what is out thee now, this guy is a total nut.

    Bugg (996c34)

  147. More here and it looks like Loughner left a similar comment here almost a year ago.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  148. Justin/Jared/whatever….
    This guy has synapses firing at the speed of light, yet all his receptors seem to be down for maintenance.
    I see a full-blown insanity defense here.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  149. Thanks for the pic via Gabriel Malor. Obviously a Glock, though I don’t know what model.

    I’m amazed he managed that many accurate shots. With that pistol, either he was extremely accurate or he managed to reload. Glocks have lower capacity magazines because of the way they are reinforced (larger magazines exist, sticking out the handle, but I suspect he’d have included such a menacing looking accessory in his picture).

    DCSCA: yawn.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  150. He’s Catholic.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  151. aphrael and JVW–

    thanks for responding to my question concerning NPR. Considering that the shooting info was put up headlining NPR’s official webpage– and that they were the ones to report multiple deaths, which was then linked by numerous other sites– the folks at NPR do not come across particularly well in what was already a rather bad week for them publicity wise.

    elissa (43095c)

  152. It’s still not clear to me what his motive might be, but perhaps that’s a moot question when he’s clearly got (at least) one screw loose.

    Kman (26c32e)

  153. And this thing shot a kid. I suppose perhaps it only seems impressive because I didn’t see him shooting into a dense crowd where it’s impossible not to miss.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  154. There is a picture of a gun…
    It’s a Glock!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  155. Sheesh, I have to turn to the Huffington Post instead of a major part of the MSM (eg, AP) to get info as fundamental as this:

    Jared Laughner, the person reportedly being held under suspicion of shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), was described by eyewitnesses as a young white man who looked like a “fringe character.”

    Laughner apparently shot Giffords and 12 others at a public event at a Safeway grocery store in Tucscon. He reportedly shot the congresswoman “point blank” in the head and may have come from inside the store. After shooting Giffords, he allegedly fired 20-30 rounds and hit “a number of people,” including a child. He attempted to flee after running out of ammunition and was tackled by one of Giffords’ staffers.

    Eyewitnesses have described Laughner as “young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing.”

    ^ In this instance, I can’t accuse the media of being sluggish in giving more details on a suspect due to their blase attitudes about PC-run-amok practices in reporting.

    Mark (411533)

  156. UPDATE BY PATTERICO 1:50 p.m. There are news reports identifying the suspect as Jared Loughner. A lot of interesting possible information regarding him is emerging, including an odd YouTube video:

    Based upon the unusual name and location in Tucson, this appears to be a picture of the guy:

    And he had a MySpace page, which has been taken down, but not before someone got a screenshot (link via Gabriel Malor’s twitter account):

    All of this is highly speculative at this point, of course. Much more unfolding in real time in the comments. You should definitely look at this video, though. Very odd.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  157. Older Glock mags for 9mm had, actually, fairly high capacity (12 IIRC). Federal laws changed that and made high-capacity mags illegal (well, further manufacture was illegal, existing ones were legal in the “That sawed off shotgun is legal if it was made so before a certain date” sense, making them highly sought after).

    The Departed (d027b8)

  158. And this thing shot a kid.

    Well, shots were fired back, according to eyewitnesses. So we can’t say whether or not the kid was caught in crossfire.

    Kman (26c32e)

  159. Seems like what ever security there was on site was totally taken by surprise. In fairness, though, a determined person can get very close to almost anyone. The greatest threat in a suburban grocery lot on a Saturday monring is probably vehicles driven by absent-minded folks. It is an unprecedented attack. Only other Congress member I can think of who was murdered wasy Leo Ryan in the Jonestown massacre.

    Bugg (996c34)

  160. Comment by Bugg — 1/8/2011 @ 1:50 pm

    Most media types don’t know the difference between a full-auto, and a semi-auto.
    Any self-loading firearm to them is an “auto”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  161. The POTUS confirms that Judge Roll is dead.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  162. The Glock 17 manufactured after the expiration of the Clinton GunBan will have a magazine capacity of either 17 or 19 rounds (+1 in the chamber).

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  163. If I had to guess, I’d peg the Glock as a Glock 17. Wish I could see the ACTUAL pic he had up, as all Glocks have their model etched on the side.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  164. Also, the Glock 18 (which is a selective fire version of the 17) came with 32-round capacity magazines. They tend to be very conspicuous, and un-handy – when used as they project quite a ways from the butt-grip.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  165. @AD

    Or he went to a gun shop or surplus store, and picked up an old-style mag.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  166. Comment #150, while ‘true’ on it’s face, is still not really helpful to the current discussion, is it?

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  167. The YouTube videos at the MySpace page linked by DRJ are being removed one by one.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  168. IT, since when has kmart been helpful in any discussion?

    And, as to the 32-rd mag, there would be no law in AZ preventing anyone from possession of such.
    And, in fact, there are probably more than a couple Lawfully Possessed Glock-18’s in the State, and not neccessarily by LE types.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  169. The Glock 17 manufactured after the expiration of the Clinton GunBan will have a magazine capacity of either 17 or 19 rounds (+1 in the chamber).

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS!

    Wow, I totally stand corrected, then.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  170. Well, actually, Dustin, I should have said “sold”, as the 17 was always manufactured to have the ability to accept a 17-rd mag, and after the ban expired, they changed the standard mag to increase the capacity by two.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  171. Mark’s quote answers a lot of my speculation, though. He probably had to reload, since he fired 20-30 rounds. Maybe he had the extended magazine, though. He actually managed to run out of ammunition and was tackled afterwards.

    Sad. I hate to say it, and I don’t say so to score points, but this is a good example of a time for a citizen to be carrying a concealed handgun.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  172. This is the main YouTube video that interests me.

    It was posted about a month ago and it appears to show a Grim Reaper character who burns an American flag. The location appears to be in desert terrain. I don’t recognize the song that is playing but the chorus seems to be “Let the bodies hit the floor.” The entry is titled: “America: Your Last Memory In A Terrorist Country!”

    His profile:

    Name: Jared Lee Loughner
    Channel Views: 271
    Joined: October 25, 2010
    Website: http://Myspace.com/fallenasleep
    About Me: My name is Jared Lee Loughner!
    Hometown: Tucson
    Country: United States
    Schools: I attended school: Thornydale elementary,Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College.
    Interests: My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!
    Movies: (*My idiom: I could coin the moment!*)
    Music: Pass me the strings!
    Books: I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  173. My best wishes to all of the victims, not just the Congresswoman.

    IMP is loathesome.

    JD (ad76b9)

  174. I’m trying to download the videos DRJ linked (the myspace link is dead now). Hopefully it works, but anyone who actually has done that before probably should pick them up before they are vanish-ed.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  175. Jared Lee Loughner’s closing comments in one of his Youtube videos:

    No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver!

    No! I won’t trust in God!

    The guy is obviously certifiable. But if one wants to ludicrously attempt a categorization of his politics, the first part is quasi-libertarian/right, the second part is quasi-atheistic/left. Simply put, he’s a kook coming and going.

    Mark (411533)

  176. Mark, looks like it.

    Not that it matters much to me. Killing political opponents is not part of the democratic or republican platform… these people are always crazy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  177. “The YouTube videos at the MySpace page linked by DRJ are being removed one by one.”

    Why?

    Christoph (8ec277)

  178. It is shocking to learn that the person who did this was some kind of nut.

    Who would have guessed?

    Clearly, though, it’s Sarah Palin’s fault. And the fault of overheated rhetoric.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  179. Concealed Carry….
    AZ is a “Constitutional Carry” state, where anyone who may lawfully possess firearms may carry concealed without any permitting process. This is also true in Vermont* and Alaska, but residents of these three states still require permits to carry concealed if they wish to do so in other states that recognize their home-state permitting process (*except residents of VT, which has no permitting process – and you are therefore not able to legally carry outside of VT unless you have acquired a non-resident permit from some other state which would be recognized).

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  180. In an update, Allahpundit at Hot Air says there are reports of a second suspect arrested and a third suspect being sought.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  181. =IMP is loathesome==

    So true, JD. The quote “have you no decency, sir?” comes to mind with respect to him. Especially today on this thread.

    elissa (43095c)

  182. ____________________________________

    Books: I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto…..Mein Kampf…..Comment by DRJ — 1/8/2011 @ 2:12 pm

    More evidence that Loughner’s derangement is perhaps bi-ideological, possibly fanatical on both sides of the same coin.

    Mark (411533)

  183. Comment by Patterico — 1/8/2011 @ 2:18 pm

    Are you sure?
    What with the book-tour, I would fall-back to the tried and true:
    It’s Bush’s fault!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  184. Comment by Mark — 1/8/2011 @ 2:20 pm

    I always found The Republic quite disturbing.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  185. Does this guy mean “conscious dreaming”?

    With his ranting about grammar and proper language you wouldn’t think he would get that confused with “conscience dreaming” — which is what, exactly?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  186. Since we know the name of the alleged shooter, why hasn’t it been reported if, and what, he is registered to vote as?
    Could it be that he’s not a, gasp, conservative, TEA Party, Republican?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  187. Day Dreaming?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  188. “conscience dreaming” — which is what, exactly

    Maybe his (malformed) conscience required him to take action?

    Christoph (8ec277)

  189. Here’s the song that accompanied the YouTube video I linked above. It’s called “Bodies (Let the Bodies Hit the Floor)” by a group called Drowning Pool.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  190. Dreaming about scolding himself, I’m sure, Patterico.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  191. Shep Smith is on Fox calling this guy a “right winger”.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  192. My wife asked me what the hell I was listening to when that youtube video came on. I haven’t explained the news to her because she’s in and out gardening and having a great day (she has made it known that she doesn’t need to know about this stuff until she checked the news on Monday).

    Lucky her.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  193. Conscience dreaming?

    To dream that your conscience censures you for deceiving some one, denotes that you will be tempted to commit wrong and should be constantly on your guard.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  194. sorry patterico for accidentally erasing your update. it looks like you are “back on duty” so i won’t be updating for a long time unless you actually pass the baton back to me.

    Btw, i think it is possible to restore your prior version using wordpress.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  195. I restored it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  196. What kind of sick F’ck shoots a kid? And who the hell cares THAT much about the gold standard – where did that come from

    Note to news organizations that are celebrating the news that the congresswoman is doing well, like a wining football game, we lost several irreplaceable people

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  197. The YouTube videos are back now. Must have been flagged by users, evaluated by YouTube staff, then restored.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  198. Assuming it is proven he was in fact the shooter, I definitely hope Jared Lee Loughner is put to death, and as quickly as possible.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  199. ______________________________________

    I always found The Republic quite disturbing.
    Comment by AD-RtR

    The killer also listed the following as one of his favorite books:

    Wikipedia:

    We the Living is the critically acclaimed first novel published by the Russian-American novelist Ayn Rand. It was also Rand’s first statement against communism.

    Meanwhile, on his Youtube site, Loughner links to a video of a burning of the US flag as one of his favorites.

    Again, his derangement appears to have no philosophical boundaries.

    Mark (411533)

  200. Hell no. I hope it takes DAYS.

    Guy killed a kid. A quick death is too good for him.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  201. Ironically, the very active Arizona Tea Party is scheduled to have their national meeting in Phoenix next month. They have had to defend themselves from all manner of accusations – racism, bigotry, all manner of *supposed* right-wing nuttery. There will be a gnashing of teeth targeting them.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  202. Nine-year-old girl

    Forget any pending federal charges. Death, for that offense alone.

    Icy Texan (8455ee)

  203. Comment by The Departed — 1/8/2011 @ 2:56 pm

    As has been attributed to The Old West:

    Get a whip, hangin’s too good for ‘im!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  204. Serious question for you, Icy Texan. Initial facts (and yes, he needs to be analyzed by a government psychiatrist to ensure these videos weren’t just some kind of pre-medidated cover for an insanity defence, which seems a hell of a long shot) tend to suggest he is quite insane.

    Do you still believe he should be put to death?

    I do. I was just curious what you think.

    I know that the justice system would most adamantly say no.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  205. I wonder why a federal judge would be at an event like this. Maybe it was a coincidence and he was just shopping.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  206. Congresswoman Giffords’ father apparently blames the Tea Party. In addition, the link says her neurosurgeon is cautiously optimistic:

    “She was shot in the head, through and through,” surgeon Peter Rhee said. “She was shot one time. It went through her brain. I am as optimistic as it gets in these situations.”

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  207. “But that Daily Kos diary is no more or less inflammatory than the bulls eyes.”

    Patterico – Daily Kos put a bulls eye on Giffords in 2008.

    http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  208. OK. So?

    That’s my point.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  209. “Daley: Interesting that you say that, as Rep. Giffords is Jewish.”

    PatAZ – I did not know that. Makes no difference to me. Are you suggesting a conspiracy or something?

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  210. “OK. So?”

    So, nothing. Merely searching the internet so you don’t have to.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  211. @DRJ Apparently the Judge was not taking part in the event. He merely lived nearby, and was stopping to say hello.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  212. “Congresswoman Giffords’ father apparently blames the Tea Party”

    Gifford’s father is under immense strain and is also operating with incomplete information. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.

    But, if at some point, he doesn’t drop that line of statement or offer a plausible reason for believing it, then at that point, I would feel free to draw negative conclusions about Gifford’s father.

    Until then, I’m assuming he’s reacting to a combination of horrific pain and bad info.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  213. Congresswoman Giffords’ father apparently blames the Tea Party.

    I’m willing to give him a pass on that. He is no doubt traumatized about what happened to his daughter, and the article makes it seem that he tossed that out as an off-handed statement.

    JVW (4463d3)

  214. So, nothing. Merely searching the internet so you don’t have to.

    Oh. OK.

    I think I’m still irritable because a couple of you seemed to think I was blaming Sarah Palin for this, when I was making the opposite point.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  215. I cannot imagine how traumatic this would be on her father at this point, so I am going to ignore his douchey comment.

    JD (ad76b9)

  216. Daily Kos put a bulls eye on Giffords in 2008.

    http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

    Hey, maybe Charlie Johnson will balance out his post by posting that image as well.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  217. I’m willing to give him a pass on that. He is no doubt traumatized about what happened to his daughter, and the article makes it seem that he tossed that out as an off-handed statement.

    Yeah, he was asked if she had any enemies. Her office had been vandalized after the health care vote and Palin (and, yes, Kos) had targeted her. I can see him wondering if there was any connection.

    But by now it should be clear, as most of us expected, that it was another one of these nutcases.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  218. I do not think that we should be quick to blame this on an ideological bent, yet, at the same time, we should not shrink from making observations that some leftist that would take what we say out of context anyway, might think.

    Christoph – Do you know that, or do you think that?

    JD (ad76b9)

  219. Sarah Palin isn’t to blame for this, but I do question the wisdom of using bulls eyes and crosshairs when applied to people in a political message.

    I remember some animal rights group put a poster on a light post of Paris Hilton that I saw once, with her in the cross hairs.

    Okay, that’s not directly analogous, but I didn’t like it because while, at the time, I knew next to nothing about Hilton, I still realized some nut might look upon it as a message to act, rather than just a propaganda point.

    Cross hairs over an excessive budget and a pile of money? Okay. But it’s a violent image and one risks political damage by using it.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  220. Probably a shortened headline is order, Patrick. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  221. Do I know what, JD?

    Christoph (8ec277)

  222. Palin and Kos targeted her? They had competing political goals, not a gunsight aimed at her. To take those pictures as anything other than ordinary political rhetoric seems to be one heck of a reach.

    JD (ad76b9)

  223. JD, no doubt at all this guy’s own contradictory and bizarre ideology was behind his decision to hate his country and want to see Americans die.

    But this man has no bearing on the legitimacy of Obama or Palin or Kos’s POV. He’s just insane.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  224. No I don’t know for a fact the father is operating under incomplete information, if that’s what you’re asking, JD.

    I assume everyone is acting under incomplete information at the moment. However, what info we do have definitely doesn’t point to this guy being a tea-partier, and does point to him being (at least in 2007) a leftist, and now an anarchist, or something.

    That can be teased out later. I don’t think there was any reason to accuse the tea party of being to blame here. I’m giving him a pass for the simple reason that … well, you know why. That and he probably doesn’t have all the facts.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  225. In other words, insofar as some out there want to score points for the more general right v left or other political battle, they are deeply wrong and immoral to do so on the basis of this shooting.

    But that’s not to say this guy didn’t have ideology. He clearly had one, and it was clearly pretty damn screwy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  226. “Palin and Kos targeted her? They had competing political goals, not a gunsight aimed at her. To take those pictures as anything other than ordinary political rhetoric seems to be one heck of a reach.”

    Yes, yes, yes, I totally agree.

    However, I ripped down that Paris Hilton poster because, to a crazy person, it could seem a lot more than that.

    I just don’t know that using crosshairs, and then naming individuals within the crosshairs, is wise. Even if it had nothing to do with the outcome here, it opens up a politician to retroactive criticism for their choice of political imagery.

    I for one would limit violent imagery such as crosshairs to people who are really my enemy, in the sense that I wish them to die. That’s what crosshairs are for.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  227. Palin and Kos targeted her? They had competing political goals, not a gunsight aimed at her. To take those pictures as anything other than ordinary political rhetoric seems to be one heck of a reach.

    Comment by JD

    They targeted her for criticism. In the spirit of peaceable discourse that Giffords celebrated herself.

    Obviously (in my view), “dead to me” is a distinction from “I want to kill you” just as a picture of a target over a district is distinct from “we should shoot this person”.

    I know JD doesn’t need this explanation, but I’m seeing many who do.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  228. its all useless to asign political blame most of the time.

    like imagine if the guy says “i shot her because the jews got us into the iraq war.”

    Well, now is he following David Duke? Or Cindy Sheehan? or both?

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  229. Even though this guy have been a leftist, there is nothing to indicate that leftism itself encouraged him to try to kill a Blue Dog Democrat.

    I mean, maybe he personally was so angry at her for being somewhat conservative that he did, and that’s pure speculation, but even if so, others on the left aren’t to blame for his malice.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  230. “I think I’m still irritable because a couple of you seemed to think I was blaming Sarah Palin for this”

    Patterico – Heh! I thought that was happyfeet, not you. Althought this AP news story seems to blame overheated political rhetoric for violence and singles out Sarah Palin’s rhetoric. Strangely they only mention examples of violence and vandalism against Democrats, when there are plenty of others to choose from. I sure it was just because they were rushing to get the story out.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  231. And Verum Serum pointed out how the DCCC targeted GOP districts in 2004, but the default setting was to blame the Tea Party, Palin, and Afghan war vets
    in that order.

    narciso (6075d0)

  232. I agree any family member has a pass at a time like this, but it’s still ironic that her father labels the “whole Tea Party” as his daughter’s enemies. Isn’t that the kind of rhetoric that makes people targets, too?

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  233. Aaron, a further problem is that it doesn’t matter if he did hold a very clear and popular ideology.

    Say this guy murdered that 9 year old girl because she liked plain M&Ms, and he thinks anyone who doesn’t prefer Peanut M&Ms must die.

    Does that mean that anyone who prefers Peanut M&Ms is now somehow implicated?

    If he killed Giffords because he hates moderate democrats, that doesn’t mean anything even if it’s really clear he was a liberal democrat or a conservative republican. His method is not part of any respectable platform, and his ideology is irrelevant aside from understanding the mind of the disturbed.

    No doubt, it will become more apparent that his ideology itself is nothing like anyone respectable, but it’s really not relevant if it weren’t.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  234. “I agree any family member has a pass at a time like this, but it’s still ironic that her father labels the “whole Tea Party” as his daughter’s enemies. Isn’t that the kind of rhetoric that makes people targets, too?”

    Very, very well put, DRJ.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  235. I know that the justice system would most adamantly say no.

    That, Christoph.

    I never meant to suggest that anyone’s actions reflect on Palin or Obama or anyone’s views, Dustin.

    Clearly, this guy was a deranged violent teabagger and a fan of Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto. `

    JD (ad76b9)

  236. __________________________________________

    Congresswoman Giffords’ father apparently blames the Tea Party

    Well, whaddya know. In his case, I’m sure the Congresswoman’s father IS of the left. Probably similar to a Michael Bloomberg, with his foolish early suspicions that the attempted bombing of Times Square was the work of an American affiliated with the Tea Party.

    The blame game has been played continuously and illogically on so many occasions by “progressives.” Hardly surprising since liberals have a knack for mis-identifying the good guy and the bad guy. For confusing good situations with bad situations, and visa versa.

    A possible attempt by people (mainly on the left) to exploit today’s tragedy for propagandist purposes is one reason I was interested in getting to the bottom of the killer’s M.O., assuming he had any. After all, anyone remember the way that liberals in 2002 turned Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone’s funeral into a disgusting, mean-spirited campaign rally?

    Mark (411533)

  237. “They always get threat[ened],” Gifford said, sobbing. “We don’t really have any information. The police department was supposed to call us but they didn’t.”

    From the linked article, it would appear her father is not only upset and in shock over the shooting itself, but upset that they were in the dark. That he mentions the whole Tea Party would seem in line with someone in such a state of emotional distress. Lashing out would not be unusual. Time will tell.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  238. I never meant to suggest that anyone’s actions reflect on Palin or Obama or anyone’s views, Dustin.

    Of course not. I tried to make clear I knew that.

    Just explaining that Palin and Kos did target her, and there is nothing wrong with that, because it’s not unpeaceful targeting.

    Kos’s more recent behavior to yell about Palin is a different matter. that is ghoulishly using a tragedy for points.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  239. http://mobile.twitter.com/democracynow/status/23827262436544514

    It did not take Democracy Now and the leftists to start.

    JD (ad76b9)

  240. I noticed the interesting AP selections, too, daleyrocks, and bookmarked an earlier version that ended with this paragraph:

    Giffords herself has drawn the ire of the right, especially for her support of the health care bill from politicians like Sarah Palin.

    Her Tucson office was vandalized a few hours after the House vote to approve the health care law in March, with someone either kicking or shooting out a glass door and window.

    Despite the animosity she has generated from the right, Giffords describes herself as a former Republican and current Blue Dog Democrat.

    “You know, actually as a former Republican, you know, I consider myself someone who is pretty in the middle, I’m a blue dog Democrat, and one that is interested in making sure that our country maintains our prosperity and frankly, our superiority over other countries and that’s where we look at these threat, obviously our defense budget, our level of education,” she said in an interview with Fox this week.

    Not surprisingly, that last paragraph has been deleted in the more recent AP versions of this report. I say “not surprisingly” because wouldn’t Giffords’ statement tend to upset someone on the left more than someone on the right?

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  241. ___________________________________________

    I think I’m still irritable because a couple of you seemed to think I was blaming Sarah Palin for this

    I guess you have to remember to insert “/sarc” into such postings. But I’m assuming the posters you’re referring to are newbies to this blog. If they’re not, a test for reading comprehension should be required of visitors to your website. /sarc

    Mark (411533)

  242. DRJ – the last paragrph in the NY Post article you linked went out of its way to point to threats over healthcare directed at Dems. It never even alluded to any of the many violent incidents directed at Team R.

    JD (ad76b9)

  243. JD, it’s not often that someone missuses ‘literally’ as your link does, and it’s nowhere near the most annoying thing they just did.

    At any rate, if someone wants to say that kind of thing is beyond their line, they either blame those on ‘both sides’ who did it, or they are a ghoul, scoring points off tragedy.

    DRJ’s AP quote deletion is really disgusting, too. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised (as she isn’t). Gotta build up a narrative, and use your control of what not to say. Tea Party = violent, I guess.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  244. hot air has some reportage suggesting that there was a second or possibly third suspect.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/01/08/breaking-congresswoman-five-others-shot-in-tucson-az/

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  245. Obviously (in my view), “dead to me” is a distinction from “I want to kill you”

    There are bloggers who would disagree with you, Dustin.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  246. JD,

    I don’t think I was very clear so let me start over.

    I agree the articles on this shooting are generally including references to violence or heated rhetoric aimed at the left … but Giffords’ last major interview quoted her as saying things that the far left would be more angry with than the far right. So I’m not surprised the AP dropped that quote because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  247. dead to me is not the same as i want to kill you.

    But, it can be the same, depending on the writer.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  248. #

    Obviously (in my view), “dead to me” is a distinction from “I want to kill you”

    There are bloggers who would disagree with you, Dustin.

    Comment by The Departed

    I’m sure there are.

    But why “to me”?

    Why specify say they mean dead in a way that is special “to me”.

    Because they don’t mean “dead” as in no longer actually living, but rather that they have lost faith, respect, willingness to deal with, etc, for that person, as though they are no longer relevant living people.

    It’s an expression that clearly distinguishes away from actual death.

    Some idiot out there might have actually misused the language and dead ‘dead to me’ to imply ‘dead to everyone, because of what I’m going to do to you’, but in that case they misspoke.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  249. specify = specifically

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  250. Right Scoop has several posts of those on the left blaming Palin for this.

    Also, it appears Charles Johnson posted that the AP reported Palin was deleting gunsight maps on her PAC website, but the updates with a correction that apparently, she wasn’t. One could hear the disappointment in her voice. He immediately follows up that post with photos of all the Tea Party rightwing violent rhetoric because the right is attemptin spin away any responsibility for the violent rhetoric flowing from this side of the aisle.

    So it begins.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  251. btw, past death threats on the judge who died.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/federal-judge-among-those-killed-in-az-shooting/

    and let’s face it, there is a long list of people who would hate any federal judge. their job is to regularly piss people off. That’s why we pay them less than Gibbs’ relatively modest salary.

    I don’t cry for underpaid judges, but if you had to decide who did a more valuable service for our society…

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  252. Oh, DRJ. You were clear, I just did a poor job of reading.

    JD (ad76b9)

  253. “So I’m not surprised the AP dropped that quote because it doesn’t fit the narrative.”

    DRJ – I read the AP story a little earlier and did not check the current version when I grabbed it to link here. The version I read earlier had the text you indicated is now deleted, which I agree is significant.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  254. Charles Johnson is beyond discussion at this point. He’s just screaming and stupid, with absolutely no thoughtfulness whatsoever. No principle. No idea. Nothing.

    Now he’s on team “I hate the tea party”, so everything must be spun that way. Now, the tea party is evil just because it doesn’t want to associate with a shooting? That guy is less than a person.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  255. The judge had ticked off Ranchers with a recent decision in 2009, but all indications he was a fairly conservative judge (ahem, recommended by
    McCain) nominated by Bush.

    narciso (6075d0)

  256. Is Jared a member of one of Dick Cheney’s assassination squads? Have the bloggers on the left raised that question yet? TBagg or Blue Texan are just the defectives to go down that path.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  257. Damn, Aaron. John Mccain’s response is excellent.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  258. It is beyond contempt to see the Kos kiddies and their loathsome juvenile brethren try to turn this event into political hay within minutes and without any evidence at all.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  259. It’s not just Kos, SPQR. It’s also the intellectual elites in the NYT. Just got done reading Krugman.

    You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we’re going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.

    …I see that Sarah Palin has called the shooting “tragic”. OK, a bit of history: right-wingers went wild over anyone who called 9/11 a tragedy, insisting that it wasn’t a tragedy, it was an atrocity.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  260. Dana, Krugman has been equally contemptible for years.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  261. Poor imagery…

    Saying someone’s in the “crosshairs” (and with all of the available reticles out there, does anyone still use the traditional cross-hairs?) is no different than saying you’re going to focus like a laser on something; with the exception that the cross-hairs are not, by themselves, destructive – whereas the laser is, or can be with enough power behind it.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  262. Actually, daley, I do thank you for that Markos screenshot — since I now found out that he put a message on Twitter blaming Sarah Palin for the shooting.

    This may be worth a post. I just put something on Twitter about it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  263. Krugman’s still trying to get over the Stalin quote:
    One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are but a statistic.

    And, I think we should step around using the death of a nine-year old to make any points;
    her death is most likely just “collateral damage” and she was not anyone’s intended target.
    This guy seemed to know exactly who he was targeting, since reports indicate he walked right up to the Congresswoman and put one round through her head.
    The rest was just to either make a point, scare the Hell out of everbody, or to allow himself to get away in all of the confusion; or all three.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  264. Earlier, I posted a comment about a patient my students examined who had tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the temple. The bullet ended up in his frontal sinus above his nose. It appears that the exact same thing happened with Giffords. I heard a report a few minutes ago that the bullet exited her forehead. It probably missed her brain altogether.

    I heard the You Tube video content a while ago. He sounds like a paranoid schizophrenic to me. The stuff about the government trying to control our minds with grammar is exactly what you get from schizophrenics. They feel they are losing control and attribute this to someone trying to control their minds.

    When I worked in a psych unit as a medical student, the busiest (and quietist) place was the TV room. The patients were all sitting there very quietly concentrating on the TV. They all thought it was controlling their minds. It was a local joke.

    Mike K (568408)

  265. Mike K…
    Is it the mindless being subject to mind-control?
    It does have a bit of mirth in it, doesn’t it?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  266. ____________________________________________

    Maybe this will be a case where one can connect the dots…

    mobile.twitter.com via Drudgereport.com:

    caitieparker @lakarune I haven’t seen [Jared Loughner] since ’07. Then, he was left wing.

    caitieparker @antderosa As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.

    caitieparker @antderosa he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven’t seen him in person since ’07 in a sign language class

    caitieparker @antderosa He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent”

    Reason.com: The people who give the least are the young, especially young liberals. [Arthur C.] Brooks [a public policy professor at Syracuse University] writes that “young liberals — perhaps the most vocally dissatisfied political constituency in America today — are one of the least generous demographic groups out there. In 2002, they were 12 percent less likely to give money to charities, and one-third less likely to give blood.”

    He writes that young liberals are less likely do nice things for their nearest and dearest, too. Compared with young conservatives, “a lower percentage said they would prefer to suffer than let a loved one suffer, that they are not happy unless the loved one is happy, or that they would sacrifice their own wishes for those they love.”

    Mark (411533)

  267. SPQR

    oh, there is evidence. but kos is removing it from their site.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  268. The YouTube links remind me of the rants of the man who crashed his plane into the IRS building in Austin. Sometimes I wonder if our highly educated and connected society has created more ways for people to share their rants, and unfortunately for some that’s not enough and they choose to act on them.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  269. Krugman has been equally contemptible for years.

    And yet to millions who read the NYT, he is the great intellectual giant to be trusted. That Nobel Prize carries a lot of weight with many.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  270. and unfortunately for some that’s not enough and they choose to act on them.

    Or they act upon them because they discover that, upon putting their best thoughts out there, they find out that the rest of the thinking world considers them bug-fuck-nuts.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  271. Nobel Prize for being a demonic midget should not carry much prestige.

    JD (ad76b9)

  272. daleyrocks:

    I used that screenshot in a new post.

    Sorry for being grumpy earlier. I should have known this would come in handy.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  273. Army confirms suspect in Rep. Giffords shooting, Jared Loughner, attempted to enlist in service but was rejected – NBC

    No reason why he was rejected.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  274. Dana: I trust Krugman when he’s talking about relatively narrow strands of economics, where he has much training, knowledge and experience. But 99% of his columns have nothing to do with that.

    aphrael (9802d6)

  275. I have to ask, aphrael, exactly what economic topics do you trust Krugman with? Certainly nothing he’s written about over the last 2+ years…

    The Departed (d027b8)

  276. No reason why he was rejected.

    Looking at his internet postings, I don’t think there’s much in the way of reason that needs to be given.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  277. Possibly the Army’s rejection of Jared Loughner had to do with psychological reasons/evals.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  278. Daley: I totally agree with you about “blame the Jews”. The part about Rep Giffords being one was only a comment. Didn’t mean anything untoward about it.

    PatAZ (537b43)

  279. You think?

    In other news, it is reported that water is wet.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  280. The Departed, it would seem likely, however, it could be something else entirely.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  281. p.s. no sarc needed. I’m just not inclined to jump to conclusions today – too many have already.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  282. http://weaselzippers.us/2011/01/08/dem-congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-arizona/

    From the comments;

    The REAL Bob says:
    January 8, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Just read some of this, not all. Don’t have the time. But I do want to point out that many of us have been saying that once things reach ‘the tipping point’, there would be assassinations and it would be from the Left claiming it came from the Right.

    Perhaps I can give someone the benefit of my experience. Having been through the anti-war riots in 1970 when Nixon invaded Cambodia and the kids in colleges all around the country went nuts, I learned three very, very important lessons.

    First, never believe any rumor. Four students were shot and killed at Kent State that day. The rumor mill had it at 7 students.

    Second, we all learned that our “beloved” gooberment was willing to throw all, and I mean ALL, its resources at the students and the anti-war movement. (The stories I could tell.)

    Third, and most importantly, there was some guy at my school who was on the podium 24/7 demanding that the students riot and destroy everything in their way. At my school, all we saw was some tear gas and a lot of noise, though. No violence but this guy was relentless.

    Well, I was pretty well connected in those days so I knew a LOT of stuff most people didn’t know. Turns out, 6 months later, we found out that this guy worked for the U.S. Government as an agent provocateur whose sole job was to whip up the crowd so that the Goobers could identify who were the ones behind the riots. The buy, whose name was Greg ‘Something’ had claimed he was a student at my school but as it turned out, he never had attended and was nowhere to be found after things calmed down.

    All of which leads ME to think that this was staged by Ocaca’s agents.

    Here we have a dupe who killed an anti-Obama legislator in a border state at a critical time during Ocaca’s implementation of his dictatorship, creating chaos and confusion, anger and fear. It’s the perfect setup. And the Left is so fucking stupid and emotional, ignorant and just itching for a fight, the Ocaca agents likely figure they have nothing to lose and everything to gain since the MSM will cover this up completely and also blame it on the Right.

    Notice, they’ve started the blame game even before this poor woman even died.

    Nope. No matter what anyone says, and based on my many years experience with our corrupt gooberment, I personally am convinced at this point that it’s a setup from start to finish. Find a guy who’s nuts. Convince him to shoot. Make it possible to do it. Get him there one way or another and their plan is complete.

    Just so you nutty asses on the Left start with the accusations that I’m the one crazy, I have over 40 years experience with this kind of things and I know a LOT of people on BOTH sides of these situations, both in country and overseas. I hate to believe it might be true but my exprerience says it is true.

    Sad event, good to be learning early the guy would have been more comfortable in Bill Ayers living room than Sara Palin’s. Who knows maybe he visited Chi town often?

    She was a strong up and coming DINO, possibly centered enough to actually get to the national stage. That equates to threats from within the Dems. It’s possible.

    Another shooter profile article

    RTF (1b95d6)

  283. Laundry day at left blogs!

    Laundry Chute

    But then of course some of the cleaning is just wise and not really trying to be deceitful. maybe..

    RTF (1b95d6)

  284. Krugman was pretty good in the 90s when he was researching and writing about free trade. Though a liberal, his general message was “free trade is inevitable, and it carries certain benefits, so we need to welcome it.” That is what he won the Nobel for, and as I recall hearing, it was this sort of center-left-centrism in economics that the NYT hired him to opine upon. Of course, once safely ensconced in Times Square Headquarters, he started writing about foreign policy, budget priorities, and a host of other things that he has no particular expertise in (this is the 90% that aphrael references above). He also became even more full of himself than he had been previously, despite the seeming impossibility of it.

    And Charles Johnson is contemptible and does not merit mention on this blog. The New York Times Magazine (irony alert!) takedown of him a year ago remains the definitive profile.

    JVW (4463d3)

  285. This guy will never see a Death Row, but will spend the rest of his days and nights on a Psych Ward, looking for the attorney that can wrangle him a release such as Hinckley received.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  286. AD

    dude, you know this is arizona, right? not washington d.c.

    i predict the death penalty.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  287. Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said …that authorities may have a photo of another suspect.

    Dupnik says officials believe a suspect in custody may have come to the grocery store parking lot with another person, and that person was in some way involved.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  288. But, this guy is certifiably looney-tunes, and the Ninth-Circuit overlooks AZ.
    This is just the kind of case that Kennedy will get squishy on, so no over-rule of the 9th.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  289. I predict he will not be competent to stand trial.

    Krugman comparing this to 9/11 to carp at Palin calling the shooting tragic is really, really, really insane. It’s so insane that I know he doesn’t mean it, and is rather trying to be hateful and score points off death.

    This wasn’t 9/11. 9/11 was a lot different than an isolated act of tragic violence from a crazy man. It was murder of thousands and a huge event, and indeed, was more than tragic.

    Krugman’s another little ghoul rubbing his hands together with glee when he gets something nasty to blame on Rush and Beck. But he’s the one whose rhetoric is dangerous.

    Blaming the mainstream right for this shooting will escalate the hate.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  290. And yet to millions who read the NYT

    If it’s any comfort, Dana – there is a lot less than even one million who reads that rag anymore. Their circ. is in the crapper and circling the drain, we still get their feeble Sunday edition for about 90% off their retail rate.

    I trust Krugman when he’s talking about relatively narrow strands of economics, where he has much training, knowledge and experience.

    Krugman has repeatedly contradicted himself over the past few years, twisting himself into contortions in order to justify the stimulus and deficit spending in general. I don’t think he even bothers to care about what he’s writing about anymore, he’s reflexively partisan on every subject now, including economics.

    Dmac (498ece)

  291. I just finished watching the world’s least informative press conference. We had to listen to the old fart sheriff go on and on about all the vitriol on radio and TV. Guess what party he belongs to. No real information. Fox News was much more informative.

    Mike K (568408)

  292. @Mike K

    This was all I could easily find that gave a reliable hint as to the man’s party.

    http://skinny08.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/tucson-weekly-endorsement-clarence-dupnik-for-pima-county-sheriff/

    The Departed (d027b8)

  293. _______________________________________

    This was all I could easily find that gave a reliable hint as to the man’s party.

    Scratch below the surface and I’m sure you’ll find liberal predilections in Dupnik.

    I mull over the existence of people like that in law enforcement, no less, then raise the matter of the big-hugs, kiss-kiss way the US military — no less, again — treated Nidal Hasan right before he massacred enlistees at Fort Hood, and it becomes obvious that “I’m liberal, therefore I am” bias is corrupting every facet of society.

    I bet Dupnik is such a fool that he shrugs and whistles a happy little tune when confronted with the headless murder victims that are cropping up regularly south of the border.

    “Oh, that bloodshed is not due to vitriol and hateful rhetoric in Mexican society!” I can envision him proclaiming. “No! That’s because we’re big, greedy drug users in America! That’s because we don’t give enough foreign assistance to our sad, poor, humble neighbor to the south!! That’s because we’re….RACISTS!!”


    Associated Press:

    “When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous,” [Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik] said. “And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.”

    Mark (411533)

  294. Well, it’s official, he’s a Leftist, since Wolf Blitzer just said that we don’t know if he’s a nut of of Left, or of the Right.
    And then Donna Brazil follows up that there is way too much antagonism in current political rhetoric.
    What a hoot!
    And, since he’s so mentally disturbed, how did he get a weapon?
    And the ex-FBI guy says it’s just way too easy for disturbed individuals to buy weapons, completely disregarding the mandatory back-ground check for firearms purchasers that must be conducted through…..
    the FBI data base.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  295. Glock purchased legally, and he had an “extended” magazine.
    -Jeanie Reserve, CNN.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  296. Comment by RTF — 1/8/2011 @ 5:12 pm

    If what you are citing is anywhere near the truth, then the second suspect/person of interest that the Sheriff is looking for will never be found (just as Suspect #2 in connection with the OKC bombing was never ID’d/located).

    AD-RtR/OS! (7c91a7)

  297. Suspect #2 has been identified as the cab driver who brought Loughner to the location. The cab driver walked into the Safeway with Loughner to get change for the fare. The cab driver has been cleared of any participation but perhaps part of Loughner’s planning ahead included taking a cab instead of driving to the scene himself.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  298. Thanks DRJ.
    There was a talker on Fox last night that posited just such a scenario as that, and thought that S-2 would turn himself in, but was staying out of sight until the level of rhetoric calmed down a bit.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7c91a7)

  299. More from KGUN on the brave citizens who stopped Loughner from reloading:

    There have been reports of a female and two males who tackled the suspect. Ms. Patricia Maisch was at the event, in the rear of the line, waiting to take a photograph with Congresswoman Giffords when the suspect began shooting. When the suspect tried to load a fresh magazine into his weapon, Ms. Maisch was able to grab the bottom of the magazine and prevent it from being inserted. This pause in shooting allowed for two men, Roger Salzgeber and Bill D. Badger, to tackle the suspect to the ground and restrain him until deputies arrived. An additional male, Joseph Zamudio, also assisted in restraining the suspect’s legs. Initial information reported Ms. Maisch was injured during the event. This information was inaccurate and she did not report having any injuries.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  300. The NY Times’s Thom Shanker reports: A military official said Sunday that the suspect was not accepted by Army recruiters because he failed a drug screening test.

    Not the reason most expected.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  301. Dana, I think failing a drug test is an easily verifiable and cheap way of weeding someone out compared to a formal psychiatric evaluation. My guess is a drug test is an early step and a psych eval happens towards the end of the process once everything else is fine. I think the process my son went through to join the police went this way- drug test among the first things, psych eval among the last.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  302. That’s interesting, MD. There were those who snarkily assumed he was rejected because he did not pass the psych eval – like it as a given. I think that was a reasonable assumption but as with so many things, they aren’t always what they appear. This kid didn’t even get far enough along to be evaluated. What a shame, too. Perhaps the Army would have been able to act on any red flags that came up during said tests. But perhaps they would have just rejected him without further comment to him or his family. I don’t know how it works. I just wish someone along the way could’ve seen the danger signs and reached out to him.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  303. The Wall Street Journal adds some interesting information:

    Mr. Montanaro said his friend “was never really political,” but “really tried to be philosophical.” Mr. Loughner liked “contemplating the meaning of words and the origin of language,” Mr. Montanaro said.

    That interest might have triggered Mr. Loughner’s first meeting with Ms. Giffords in 2007. Mr. Loughner said he asked the lawmaker, “How do you know words mean anything?” recalled Mr. Montanaro. He said Mr. Loughner was “aggravated” when Ms. Giffords, after pausing for a couple of seconds, “responded to him in Spanish and moved on with the meeting.”

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  304. While we’re talking politics, lets take a moment ot honor this man, who might very well have saved Giffords’ life.

    aphrael (fe2ce4)

  305. There were several heroes, aphrael, not to mention the calm 911 callers. I’m so proud of these Arizonans.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  306. Not the reason most expected.

    In addition to being completely nuts, he’s described as a “left-wing pothead”.

    Failure to pass a drug test is hardly a shocker.

    The Departed (d027b8)


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