Patterico's Pontifications

8/23/2023

Pre-Analysis and GOP Debate Open-Thread

Filed under: General — JVW @ 2:49 pm



[guest post by JVW]

A whole mess of Republicans will take to the stage Wednesday night to argue over which one of them will be the last one to bow out of a primary which Donald J. Trump seems destined to win. (That’s me being snarky: for the record, I believe that there is a very good chance that Trump’s luster diminishes mightily this fall and early winter.) Since I had a bit of fun four years ago comparing the Democrat candidates to the sort of people I encountered in high school, and since it’s an idea appropriated from the late, great humorist P.J. O’Rourke whose writings I revere, I figured I would do the same this time around with the GOP. So, in alphabetical order, here we go:

Governor Doug Burgum
Not particularly well known because he lives out on a large ranch about 40 minutes away from school. Seems like a good enough dude, but his life clearly revolves around ranch work. And while that no doubt has imparted valuable life skills upon him, it also means that he isn’t really a part of the jocks or nerds or go-getters or any of the other school subcultures. You imagine he would be dependable in a school crisis, but you just can’t tell if he can relate to your or your friends.

Governor Chris Christie
Smart and witty loudmouth who is always arguing with someone. Loves the speech and debate team where he excels in extemporaneous debate and Lincoln-Douglas Debate. Plays catcher for the baseball team and is adequate on the defensive end, but only hits .240 at the plate and comes up short in clutch situations. You genuinely like him, though when he’s had a few beers all he really wants to do is find someone and argue with him about trifling matters, and that gets really old quickly. Carries grudges, and forgets nothing.

Governor Ron DeSantis
Solid guy: good student, fine athlete, perceptive, bold, and dependable. On the other hand, he’s not super sociable (especially in large group gatherings) and he has the tendency to pick fights that may have best been avoided, like the time he got the basketball team banned from the weight room because they were practicing dance moves while the football team was trying to pump iron. Seems a bit too serious and focused at times. Everybody at the rival school hates him because he has captained teams which continually beat theirs, but now the BMOC at his own school has become threatened by him and is thus colluding with his obnoxious posse and the rival school to undermine him.

Governor Nikki Haley
Smart, kind, pretty, and dependable. She’s the daughter of immigrants and her family owns a small business, so instead of having a heavy extracurricular life she tends to her family obligations. This means that while she is respected and liked by her peers, they don’t seem to really know her too well. She’s trying to be more socially active, but is having a hard time breaking into the various cliques.

Governor Asa Hutchison
Pleasant guy, pretty goofy, doesn’t seem to have a whole lot on the ball but is likable anyway. Worked hard to get elected president of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, but then weirdly starting criticizing the group for being too focused on Jesus, of all things. Nobody really loves the guy, but nobody truly hates him either.

Governor Mike Pence
Soft-spoken and friendly stalwart who plays on the offensive line in football, wrestles in the winter, and throws the shot and discus in the spring. Good student, but missed out on finishing in the top ten. Has had only one girlfriend whom he has dated for his last three years. They will almost certainly marry after college. Respected and liked by a diverse group of people, but just doesn’t leave a super-strong impression upon anyone.

Mr. Vivek Ramaswamey
You were confused when suddenly one day your senior year this sophomore guy is seen sitting with the cool kids at lunch. Turns out he’s smart and personable, but he does give off the vibe that he’s trying too hard to flatter you and gain your confidence. And it seems a bit odd that suddenly he expresses the exact same opinions that all the popular boys have and he emulates their mannerisms. For a few months he is a big cheese among the in crowd, but eventually they forget about him and move on.

Senator Tim Scott
Super likable guy, always seen in the halls with a big smile on his face. Says a friendly “Hello!” to everyone and seems somehow to always know their names. Most of the school admires and is genuinely fond of him, not the least because he will call white guys “brother” from time to time, but for some reason he never really distinguishes himself from his classmates in any meaningful way. You always expect that one day he will emerge as a class leader, but that day for whatever reason never seems to come.

I’ve been going back-and-forth on whether to include a high school analysis of the one guy who won’t be there on Wednesday to take part in the debate. One the one hand, why should non-participants be included? I really don’t want to have to learn enough about Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami to figure out where he fits in my political Riverdale after all. But I guess this guy will be a looming specter haunting tonight’s proceedings, so here we go:

Former President Donald Trump
A rich kid who became the kingpin of the school early on when his indulgent parents invited all of his schoolchums to annual birthday parties starting in Kindergarten. These parties featured unhealthy food, magicians, pony rides, bouncy castles, cotton candy machines, arcade games, and anything else that captures a child’s attentino. The birthday parties had ceased by the time young Donald reached seventh grade, but they had served their purpose in making him the most popular kid at the school. He hasn’t thrown any kind of social event since then, but he always teases the planning of a huge party with six kegs and three bands that he plans to hold “very soon.” It of course never takes place. He openly mocks his teachers to their faces and then complains that he is being singled-out for punishment when he is sent to detention. Nearly everybody pretends to like and respect him, and there is a strong clique in the school who idolizes him, but there are grumblings that school spirit suffers under him and that it is time that a new BMOC be crowned. But for now, he still rules the school.

There you have it. I don’t know if I am going to watch in real-time tonight; I’m lazy enough to just catch the highlights on YouTube or something. But maybe I will tune in if only to be further disappointed on how horribly we have fallen since the days of true leaders.

Share your reactions to the debate in the comments.

– JVW

273 Responses to “Pre-Analysis and GOP Debate Open-Thread”

  1. Watch for Phil Gramm to steal the debate with a well-timed quip about Ronald Reagan and the Tax Act of 1981. Hell, I’d probably vote for him.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  2. We know Christie is going to slam Trump, the question is how much he’ll slam DeSantis and Pence for being cowards, Ramaswamy for being a lying lightweight with zero political experience, and Haley and Scott for running for vice president.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  3. From the Weekend Open Thread:

    The 8 Republicans On The Debate Stage And How Likely They Are To Bash (MIA) Trump

    ………
    (Donald Trump) won’t be at this first debate, which is being hosted by Fox News, and most of his opponents for the GOP nomination aren’t likely to bring him up on stage without being explicitly asked about him. And when they do, inevitably, talk about Trump, it’s likely to be in glowing or neutral terms, even as they confront questions about Trump’s fitness for office following his fourth criminal indictment. …….
    ………
    8. Vivek Ramaswamy: Trump Stan All The Way
    ………
    Ramaswamy won’t go after one of his professed political heroes, someone he’s been compared to as he campaigns for president. ……(L)ike Trump, he’s floated conspiracies — suggesting the government may have lied about 9/11 and the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection — and extreme policies, like raising the voting age to 25 for most Americans and gutting the federal government.
    ……..

    7. Doug Burgum: Doug Who?
    ……….

    6. Tim Scott: The Evangelical Wild Card
    ………
    Scott is pitted against Trump for the support of evangelicals, a voting bloc that, according to the most recent Iowa Poll, Trump is carrying handily.

    But that doesn’t mean Scott will make the case to religious voters that he’s more aligned with their values than Trump. Scott has been a staunch Trump backer in the U.S. Senate, declining to impeach him for his actions leading up to the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol.

    “The president is simply not guilty,” he said a month after the Jan. 6 attack. ………

    5. Nikki Haley: ‘Underestimated’ Trump Flip-Flopper

    You won’t hear Nikki Haley talk about Trump much by name on the campaign trail, despite the fact that one of Haley’s biggest career achievements was serving as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations at the behest of Trump, and then leaving on good terms in 2018.

    ………(She has given) her detractors plenty of runway to argue that she’s always attuned to what’s most politically expedient.

    After Jan. 6, Haley said Trump “went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him.”

    Later that same year: “We need him in the Republican Party. I don’t want us to go back to the days before Trump.”
    ……….
    Given her lack of traction in polls, Haley, who’s been in the race longer than any other Republican, might need a new approach to match the campaign swag that dares her rivals: “Underestimate me. That’ll be fun.”

    4. Ron DeSantis: Sick Of Being Silent?
    ……….
    New signs, however, point to DeSantis losing his resolve against criticizing the former president. He’s defied the “Make America Great Again” orthodoxy by admitting that Trump lost the 2020 election. Last week, DeSantis made his sharpest remarks yet against Trump, suggesting he should have never joined the 2024 presidential race in response to a question about the indictments. (DeSantis still argues that Trump’s legal troubles are the result of a weaponized government and political vendettas.)
    ………

    3. Mike Pence: Newly Emboldened By Jan. 6
    ……….
    In Iowa, Pence offered a glimpse of how he might handle Jan. 6 on the debate stage: “Frankly, my former running mate has spent the last 2½ years telling people something that just didn’t sell,” Pence told reporters there this month. “President Trump was wrong when he asked me, and he told the American people ever since I had the right to overturn the election. I had no right to overturn it.”

    2. Asa Hutchinson: The Anti-Trumper You’ve Never Heard Of
    ………

    1. Chris Christie: The Anti-Trump Hammer
    ………

    Polling shows DeSantis continuing to sink like a rock (see here and here); Doug Brugum may not attend due to a basketball injury.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. JVW, I am just sick to my stomach about politics. I despise bullies, and we have too many of them in politics.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  5. These parties featured unhealthy food, magicians, pony rides, bouncy castles, cotton candy machines, arcade games, and anything else that captures a child’s attention.

    You got me to chuckle with this. Well done.

    norcal (3fd450)

  6. PS: great essay. And I miss PJ, too.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  7. We are stuck with them, but these “debates” are lousy ways to judge potential presidents, especially with so many on stage at once.

    And I have long thought that — were it possible — it would be better to have reading and listening contests, since those skills are more important to what a president actually does, if he’s any good.

    Jim Miller (be7a38)

  8. The problem of watching GOP debate “highlights” is that what the editors call highlights are usually not what you would call “highlights.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  9. That’s why I watch the re-runs on C-SPAN. Sadly,

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 4:10 pm

    This. Highlights are just looking at things through someone else’s biased lenses.

    norcal (3fd450)

  11. Snow black and the eight dwarfs! I would like to here their answer to the question should abortion be totally banned?

    asset (be39e1)

  12. Snow black and the eight dwarfs!

    asset (be39e1) — 8/23/2023 @ 4:25 pm

    Nobody in his right mind could possibly call Christie a dwarf. 😁

    norcal (3fd450)

  13. A couple of additions to the HS stereotypes:

    Desantis is that one guy who takes everything too far.

    Trump only dates freshmen.

    Pence’s gf wears a purity ring, everyone is pretty sure she can. Nobody minds being in a group with him in class because does his part in groupwork, but he spends way too much time talking about his eagle scout project.

    Nic (896fdf)

  14. Pence’s gf wears a purity ring

    Pence’s gf is secretly dating one of the stoners, but will be true to Pence after they graduate. Mostly.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  15. Trump only dates freshmen.

    Correct. And it stays that way long after he has graduated. Occasionally he plays around with girls from another school.

    norcal (3fd450)

  16. Great additions, Nic.

    Kevin M, not nice.

    Trump is the guy who comes home from Christmas his junior year of college and hooks up with a high school sophomore girl who is friends with his younger sister. I’ll bet that most of us knew a dude like that.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  17. @norcal and @JVW Yep.

    Nic (896fdf)

  18. Thanks for the intros, JVW.

    I’ll watch for as long as I can manage without my dinner coming back up.

    Patterico (228f5a)

  19. DeSantis can’t even look normal during the singing of the national anthem.

    Patterico (228f5a)

  20. Like so many legit heroes, high school Donald was victimized and smeared by the real villains. (NSFW obscenity alert: one word at the very end)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  21. Christie and Asa Hutchinson booed.

    Patterico (a4747b)

  22. This is an idiot Trump crowd. If anyone criticizes him they will be booed.

    Patterico (a4747b)

  23. OMG. Do all these guys have to wear the same uniform? We are such a superficial country.

    norcal (3fd450)

  24. I hate this audience

    Patterico (a4747b)

  25. Christie smacks Ramaswamy. Love it. Audience needs a mute button

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  26. First observation: Ramaswamy is a troll peddling Bernie-style naive cynicism. Calling everyone else a tool is pretty risible.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  27. I hate this audience

    Patterico (a4747b) — 8/23/2023 @ 6:29 pm

    I guess there weren’t any professional wrestling matches to attend tonight.

    norcal (3fd450)

  28. Christie smacks Ramaswamy

    Haley smacked him harder (“Childish”), and Christie will be called a racist later tonight.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  29. DeSantis has a creepy smile. I think Tim Scott grew up poor. I think.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  30. Also, Haley is not wrong about the Republcians running up the debt too.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  31. Ramaswamy just said that climate change is a hoax. The guy is unfit and unqualified.
    Christie rightfully said he’s an amateur.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  32. This whole format — its been going on for years — that allows “rebuttals” when one is mentioned is effing guaranteed to have lots of attacks. It is a way to get more time by engaging in colloquy and is gamed every damn debate.

    Ramaswamy is banking on it, smearing everyone every time to make sure they respond to him. Don’t feed the troll.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  33. Haley is strong. Does look like a Lilliputian.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  34. DOES NOT…whoops

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  35. She’s by far the best dressed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  36. Yes. If they do not wear the right colors and a big enough flag lapel pin, they are clearly unamerican. (except Nikki Haley) It would be interesting if someone wore a red suit with a blue tie though.

    They are all over the place tonight. It’s more interesting than I thought.

    Haley has def done her homework and her debate prep.

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. Pence is annoying….Tim Scott is not impressing me yet

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  38. Props to Burgum for his defense of federalism

    norcal (3fd450)

  39. I agree Norcal….his answer about global warming was good too

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  40. Norcal,

    Agree. A guy who actually says something he knows won’t be popular as he pulls a Constitution out of his pocket.

    Patterico (a4747b)

  41. Tim Scott is not impressing me yet

    Tim Scott is a nice guy, but he really doesn’t make anything jump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  42. Chris Christie knows better than what he’s saying about how to solve the crime problem. He could’ve give a REAL answer, and he didn’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  43. Hutchinson is Casper Milquetoast.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  44. Next question: why are all of you losing by over 30%?

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  45. Scott is right that “federalism” does not work all that well in the age of plane travel when some states (like mine) will allow abortion in week 39. The Constitution allows regulation of interstate commerce, and this clearly is that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  46. George Soros….DRINK!!

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  47. This is what I want to see happen:

    Charlie Sykes isn’t wrong when he says that the “show of hands” questions disdained by candidates and viewers might be the most important asked. A show of hands is even less informative than a 60-second scripted soundbite, but in this case the binary clarity it will produce on certain “sensitive” subjects is necessary. Did Biden win the election? Did Mike Pence do the right thing on January 6? Are any of the indictments against Trump good reason not to vote for him next fall? Should he be pardoned if convicted?

    Cut to the chase and cut out all the verbal diarrhea.

    Dana (4bcfee)

  48. Interesting how little Trump has been a topic so far

    Patterico (a4747b)

  49. DeSantis can’t stop bobble-heading.
    I’m warming to Burgum. Christie and Haley are solid, IMO.
    Pence is a platitude-filled bloviator, and Ramaswamy is a slimy car salesman with teeth that are so white you can’t look at them directly without pain to the eyes.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  50. Ramaswamy sounds like Roger Rabbit.

    They’re all creepy, honestly. Even Nikki is more shrill than I remember.

    nk (21d481)

  51. Ah here we go that’s gonna change

    Patterico (a4747b)

  52. Rama[expletive deleted]head is a cretin

    Patterico (a4747b)

  53. I forgot to mention Scott, mainly because his words have been forgettable.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  54. Tee’d up….get the popcorn. Now we see who will poke the bear

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  55. @Paul@49 I’m getting the same salesman vibe from Ramaswamy.

    Too many of these people are bush league. And they shouldn’t be.

    Nic (896fdf)

  56. Way to tease the commercial break!

    norcal (3fd450)

  57. Hutchinson just can’t stand out in this forum. He is good at sitdown one-on-one interviews. Too bad, he might be the smartest and the most experienced. Oh well…

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  58. I forgot to mention Scott, mainly because his words have been forgettable.

    His only point was that abortion is not a state issue. Everything else is blehh

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  59. Haley is forceful and confident. I like it.

    norcal (3fd450)

  60. Just because it is, alas, time for me to start paying attention to these things, I see that I am older than Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, and, obviously, Vivek Ramaswamey. Here is how they rank in order, oldest to youngest:

    Asa Hutchison (b. 1950), Doug Bergum (1956), Mike Pence (1959), Chris Christie (1962), Tim Scott (1965), Nikki Haley (1972), Ron DeSantis (1978), Vivek Ramaswamey (1985).

    JVW (1ad43e)

  61. @Paul@49 I’m getting the same salesman vibe from Ramaswamy.

    He’s a Trumpist troll.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  62. Ramaswamy needs to be called out on his Taiwan and Russia BS….and then his 9/11 BS. Anateur was exactly right

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  63. Trump indictments discussed next — get ready for Christie to be booed by this crowd of ignoramuses

    Patterico (a4747b)

  64. And, now: Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  65. Four Baby Boomers (boo!), three Gen-Xers (yay!), and one Millennial (no comment).

    JVW (1ad43e)

  66. Asa Hutchison (b. 1950), Doug Bergum (1956), Mike Pence (1959), Chris Christie (1962), Tim Scott (1965), Nikki Haley (1972), Ron DeSantis (1978), Vivek Ramaswamey (1985).

    JVW (1ad43e) — 8/23/2023 @ 6:56 pm

    I’m older than four of them, and younger than four of them.

    norcal (3fd450)

  67. Trump indictments discussed next — get ready for Christie to be booed by this crowd of ignoramuses

    It’s Chinatown, Pat.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  68. Ratsaswarmy was waiting for this.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  69. The crowd is preventing speech, just like like Antifa.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  70. Ratsy also won’t STFU when it’s not his turn.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  71. The GOP voters are embarrassing themselves

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  72. Tim Scott is still digging. TFB.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  73. Tim Scott (head shake)

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  74. Pathetic, Christie getting booed like that, and Trump-Mini-Me-Ramaswamy trying to talk over him.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  75. He passed the shovel to DeSantis.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  76. Tim Scott trying to have it both ways

    norcal (3fd450)

  77. If they do not wear the right colors and a big enough flag lapel pin, they are clearly unamerican.

    I like Tim Scott, but he’s no Einstein. “First thing I’d do is fire Merrick Garland”? Lol.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  78. And now DeSantis having it both ways

    norcal (3fd450)

  79. Answer the question Ronnie

    Patterico (a4747b)

  80. DeSantis can’t make the case against Trump

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  81. Answer the question

    Patterico (a4747b)

  82. Why would a Trump supporter vote for DeSantis?

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  83. Bobble head to the max

    Patterico (a4747b)

  84. I like Tim Scott, but he’s no Einstein. “First thing I’d do is fire Merrick Garland”? Lol.

    Indeed. I bet he’ll fire VP Harris, too.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  85. I do like that a few of them seem to understand that the constitution is an important document even while discussing Trump.

    Nic (896fdf)

  86. Haley tosses Trump under the bus. Good. And good soundbite.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  87. Haley: truth bomb

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  88. Ratsy buts in again.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  89. Can Christie please sit on Ramaswamy?!

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  90. I hand it to Christie for standing up for Mike Pence without reservation

    Patterico (a4747b)

  91. (Sorry about the misplaced blockquote @77. The comment about Scott should have been standalone.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  92. Can Christie please sit on Ramaswamy?!

    Lol I should not be laughing at that but there you have it

    Patterico (a4747b)

  93. I think that Pence is getting a bit holier-than-thou here, by challenging others to support the Constitution.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  94. OK Mike, what about the days after J6?

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  95. Haley seems to see her lane as practical moderate republicans and suburban women (which the Rs need to win). I don’t know that there are enough cars in that lane. She’s sounding strong though.

    Nic (896fdf)

  96. Ratsy favors Putin.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  97. STFU you little troll. DCSCA on stage.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  98. They should turn off Ramaswamy’s mic.

    Nic (896fdf)

  99. I never thought I’d see a GOP crowd cheering for Putin.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  100. Ramaswamy is in a moral black hole.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  101. STFU you little troll. DCSCA on stage.

    🤣

    norcal (3fd450)

  102. 1991, not 1990

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  103. “Peace through strength”

    What a concept.

    Now Ratsy is getting booed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  104. Haley another truth bomb

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  105. Go Nikki.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  106. “Good vs evil”

    I always thought that Reagan’s speech to the Evangelicals (the “Evil Empire” speech) was his shining hour.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  107. I didn’t like Ramaswamy going in, and now I like him even less. He’s an amateur and a troll. I can’t believe he’s 3rd behind DeSantis.
    DeSantis’ answer on Ukraine was crap. Haley is right, we’re only 11th in aid to Ukraine as a percent of GDP.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  108. I have never hated a crowd of people this much

    Patterico (a4747b)

  109. The troll trolls.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  110. “You have no experience in foreign policy, and it shows.”

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  111. Wasting time on this boob….

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  112. Ramaswamy needs to be taken out back and have done to him the kind of thing that happens to you when you get taken out back

    Patterico (a4747b)

  113. You know, get a stern talking to

    Patterico (a4747b)

  114. Nikki is enraged here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  115. You know, get a stern talking to

    The kind Putin gives

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  116. Bobblehead

    Patterico (a4747b)

  117. The problem is, and continues to be, the voters (including this audience). I have no idea how the GOP becomes solidly viable again.

    Dana (4bcfee)

  118. Ah the executing drug dealers without a trial applause line

    Patterico (a4747b)

  119. Gang, I just re-registered to vote in California and changed my party affiliation from No Party Preference back to GOP. You have to do that in order to cast a vote in the Republican primary. I would urge other disaffected Republicans to do the same. We can always change back after the primary is over.

    To re-register, just go to the Secretary of State website and choose the register to vote option. Even if you are already registered, you go through that process again. At a certain point they ask if you have been registered in California before, and you tell them yes and then change your party preference.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  120. Wasting time on this boob….

    Troll feeding.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  121. I have nothing in common with this audience

    Patterico (a4747b)

  122. JVW I am likely to do the same, but I used to think it would be to vote for DeSantis. Not too sure about that now

    Patterico (a4747b)

  123. Burgum sounds like he knows more than DeSantis

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  124. Ah the executing drug dealers without a trial applause line

    Well, you can’t do it WITH a trial….

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  125. Another pathetic xenophobe answer from DeSantis, that we’re sending aid to secure Ukraine’s border but not spending enough to secure our own border, as if the US government can’t multi-task.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  126. Border wall complete (head shake)

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  127. Brett Baier: STFU

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  128. Burgum sounds like he knows more than DeSantis

    DeSantis is limited in what he can say, Burgum has nothing left to lose (i.e. freedom).

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  129. Asa Hutchison is just saying random words and phrases about the border now. It’s like magnetic poetry.

    Nic (896fdf)

  130. JVW I am likely to do the same, but I used to think it would be to vote for DeSantis. Not too sure about that now

    Well, if you really hate Trump and if both the audience and Ramaswamy are stand-ins for Trump in this debate (shaking my head at anyone who didn’t expect a Millennial dot-com titan to be an utter dickhead), then I would think voting for anybody but Trump (or I guess Ramaswamy) would be an empowering feeling or whatever that cliché is.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  131. DeSantis will attack labs in Mexico. I guess that’s because he can’t kill drug dealers without a trial.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  132. I think military ops in Mexico requires working with Mexico….I’m not sure if DeSantis looks like a diplomat.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  133. Invade Mexico? No downsides to that. 🙄

    norcal (3fd450)

  134. Another pathetic xenophobe answer from DeSantis, that we’re sending aid to secure Ukraine’s border but not spending enough to secure our own border, as if the US government can’t multi-task.

    I’m not watching the debate, but it sounds like that is exactly the criticism that DeSantis is making: that the U.S. can’t seem to multi-task to help Ukraine and solve its own border problem at the same time. Of course we know that the real issue is that the Biden Administration and Democrats don’t really want to solve the border problem, at least not in a way that doesn’t bring in a few million more politically exploitable immigrants.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  135. Pence was the only one with a real answer to the immigration question. Christie had at least an aspirational one. Everyone else was nonsense.

    Nic (896fdf)

  136. Questions I would ask:

    Ramaswamy: Would you appoint Giuliani as AG?
    Pence: What were you thinking when you agreed to be Trump’s VP?
    DeSantis: If your child told you she wa gay, what would your response be?
    Christie: What is your position on gun control, exactly?
    Burgum: Why are you running?
    Scott: Say something surprising or original.
    Hutchinson: Say something surprising or original.
    Nikki: Say something stupid.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  137. Not sure if this debate will turn Trump voters…..though I think it might scramble those below a bit

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  138. Audience members jumping up and waving at the camera like it’s a ball game. Idiots.

    norcal (3fd450)

  139. Nikki: Say something stupid.

    “Donald Trump has been of tremendous benefit to our party, and we owe him a great deal.”

    JVW (1ad43e)

  140. DeSantis and Ramaswamy should go down in the polls after this debate, DeSantis for his canned overly-prepped answers and odd demeanor (and Ramaswamy for the reasons stated above), but this is a Republican Party that I scarcely recognize anymore.
    Christie and Haley and Burgum should gain, but like I said about this dysfunctional political party.
    Scott has been disappointing. I like Hutchinson but he’s in Christie’s lane.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  141. So far:

    Nikki wins.
    Pence helps.
    Christie as expected.
    DeSantis slight minus.
    Scott, Huitchinson, Burgum, why are they here?
    Ramaswamy: Big loser.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  142. I think you needed DeSantis, Haley, and Scott to make the argument directly to Trump supporters why they need to change their vote. I haven’t heard it. Christie and Hutchinson sure…once the booing stopped. Burgrum just can’t talk about it….well….ain’t that nice

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  143. Nobody has mentioned E-Verify, the most effective tool against border hoppers (one half of illegals) and visa overstayers (the other half of illegals).

    Don’t let them work, and don’t give them welfare. Attraction gone.

    norcal (3fd450)

  144. Baier will need some shots after this

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  145. I think you needed DeSantis, Haley, and Scott to make the argument directly to Trump supporters why they need to change their vote.

    Did Ramaswamy give any indication for why any Republican should vote for him over Trump? I get that he wants to stay close to what he perceives as the party’s base, but at some point it would seem he has to make the case for why he would be a more effective President than Trump Part II.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  146. I remember “Civics” in 1970, long before D.Ed. Bunch of clock watching ignoramuses, even why a teacher who knew his stuff.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  147. *with

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  148. Baier will need some shots after this

    I bet they’re being lined up now. Haley may join him.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  149. Did Ramaswamy give any indication for why any Republican should vote for him over Trump?

    Pure brown-nose. He wants to be Trump’s VP.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  150. Haley’s not done, either.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  151. Desantis has no answer to the education question. Just say no to ignorance of Civics.

    Noisy boy also has no real answer: The fed will do stuff the fed isn’t allowed to do. Civics!

    Bugrum is consistently dedicated to keeping the fed out of state issues. Rather refreshing. Also, an adult answer.

    Haley gives a very mainstream republican education answer. I thought she’d avoid the silly part of the question, but she didn’t. Sigh.

    Nic (896fdf)

  152. Like her education answer

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  153. Did Ramaswamy give any indication for why any Republican should vote for him over Trump? I get that he wants to stay close to what he perceives as the party’s base, but at some point it would seem he has to make the case for why he would be a President than Trump Part II.

    JVW (1ad43e) — 8/23/2023 @ 7:39 pm

    I think Ramaswamy is what happens when you strip Trump’s world view and personality of Trump’s obsessive need to talk about himself. Is that enough to siphon off many Trump voters? I doubt it.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  154. Chucky prattles on.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  155. He might move up as their 2nd choice

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  156. I think that Hutchinson would have made a great junior high civics teacher.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  157. “alongside Navy Seals”?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  158. President will create Comp Sci programs (head shake)

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  159. Pence takes a shot against Ramaswamy.

    Ramaswamy- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP TALKING!

    Hutchinson- That was the question before this.

    Scott- As president, I will quote from the Bible.

    DeSantis- I really really really want to talk about my military service.

    Nic (896fdf)

  160. Oh my God UFOs

    Patterico (a4747b)

  161. Christie is not interested in talking about UFOs.

    Nic (896fdf)

  162. If there are UFOs — capable of crossing many light years (do you have ANY idea how far that is?) — we had better hope they like us.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  163. Nice pivot for a big man

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  164. Oh my God UFOs

    It only gets worse. They chose Hannity to explain this train wreck.

    BuDuh (4e5f40)

  165. Trump has to be pissed. They hardly talked about him at all.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  166. Christie is able to switch it up and show a little charm. Nice.

    norcal (3fd450)

  167. “Donald Trump has been of tremendous benefit to our party, and we owe him a great deal.”

    I might quibble with this some, but he did refocus the party on 2016 instead of 1980. After that, not so much.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  168. They chose Hannity to explain this train wreck.

    Hannity is a tool, and he’s not Trump’s tool anymore.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  169. “Donald Trump has been of tremendous benefit to our party, and we owe him a great deal.”

    A sop

    norcal (3fd450)

  170. Wasn’t Desantis JAG? I’m not going to bag on JAG officers, I have a good friend from college who went in that direction, but they aren’t taking down Fallujah any more than the assistant district attorney is knocking down doors to make a drug bust.

    Nic (896fdf)

  171. That forum would not allow a case against Trump. I’m sad to say we need debates without audiences.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  172. Ratsy is getting the last word. Meh.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  173. 172, DeSantis will get the last word, no?

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  174. It’s not a failure of leadership. All the leaders do is give the people what they want. The problem is that people want conflicting things.

    norcal (3fd450)

  175. Ooops. Yes, he will. Forgot about DeSantis, which is part of his problem.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  176. Nice pivot for a big man

    Chili Palmer ftw

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  177. “Time for Choosing”

    Send the Navy Seal to the Oval Office!

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  178. Ramaswamy would make a great televangelist if not for you know what.

    norcal (3fd450)

  179. Closing statements:

    Burgum: Things are terrible. I’m a hard worker. Drugs are bad. Energy prices are bad. The boarder is bad. The economy is slow. Horses! Regulations bad. Innovation good.

    Hutchison: Things are terrible. Biden Bad, Trump Bad. I good. I’ll be conservative and people will do the right things. (less depressing that Burgum)

    Scott: We were poor. My mom worked hard. Sports good!

    Christie: I know how to campaign! I’ll win! I have blue collar values!

    Haley: Military wife metaphor. I’ll win! I can do all thing things and make it better! I AM FIERCE!

    Pence: Biden is bad. Everything is terrible. I have experience! Americans good! God good!

    Ramaswamy: I’m a young feller. I’m the same as everyone else, not just brown. Platitudes. I LOVE THE CONSTITUTION! (except that trump thing)

    DeSantis: Forgot to talk for a minute. Biden Bad. Me Blue Collar. Military! Family! I was the BEST in Florida. I AM THE BEST!

    Nic (896fdf)

  180. Ramaswamy would make a great televangelist if not for you know what.

    He’s a Vegan?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  181. I liked Christie, Haley, and Burgum.

    Ramaswamy is annoying as hell.

    norcal (3fd450)

  182. He’s a Vegan?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 8:06 pm

    Very funny!

    norcal (3fd450)

  183. Who won?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  184. 181, I’m with you

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  185. I’m with you

    I am honored to have such company!

    norcal (3fd450)

  186. Laura Ingraham thought it was a “fantastic” event.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  187. I’m flipping maniacally between post-debate coverage on Fox and MSNBC, hoping implausibly that one will be less insufferably knee-jerk than the other.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  188. Try CNN….their panel is broad

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  189. I think so people may have made gains, others not so much.

    Burgum- I think people will have learned things about him. He generally sounded good, but I think he’s too much toward the libertarian side of the party to go very far in the current mood.

    Chris Christie- Had a solid night, but it’s hard to tell how much what he has to say speaks to the Republican voter. I think he probably is pretty attractive to the blue collar republican, but not ones who swoon over trump.

    Ron Desantis- I don’t know that he made any progress, but I don’t think he necessarily lost ground. He hit a lot of talking points. Very little substance, but I don’t think most people will notice that.

    Nikki Haley: Sounded really good. Knew what lane she was aimed at. I think she might have made so gains. For my money she’s the one the non-Trump people should coalesce around if they want a good chance to win the election, but I don’t know that the lane she’s aimed at will provide her with enough to support.

    Asa Hutchinson: He was fine.

    Pence: Sounded like an adult, but also like a stuffed shirt. I don’t think he plays well for most of the country. It’s like listening to your principal talk over the intercom when you are in HS.

    Ramaswamey- Dear god he’s annoying. Also he has no lane.

    Tim Scott: Had nothing really to contribute. Also doesn’t know what lane he wants to be in. I don’t know that there really is one. Seems like a nice guy, but doesn’t feel like someone who would be able to hold the reigns of the presidency. Affable, but not powerful.

    Nic (896fdf)

  190. Thanks, AJ. Done.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  191. I suppose it was somewhat gratifying to confirm my dislike of DeSantis. Not as gratifying as the two Hostess Zingers and two chocolate chip cookies, but some.

    Otherwise: Meh! Ain’t none of them gonna be the boss of me.

    nk (2794f7)

  192. They still make the Hostess Zinger? Why don’t we have them here in California? Gavin Newsom and the Democrats probably outlawed them for some silly reason.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  193. That’s something J.B. Pritzker would never do, of course.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  194. Pence: Sounded like an adult, but also like a stuffed shirt. I don’t think he plays well for most of the country. It’s like listening to your principal talk over the intercom when you are in HS.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/23/2023 @ 8:25 pm

    Accurate and funny!

    norcal (3fd450)

  195. @norcal I do my best. 😛

    Nic (896fdf)

  196. 🙁

    Dustin (5b1c43)

  197. *waves at Dustin* Hey, good to see you. How go the things?

    Nic (896fdf)

  198. I vaguely recall a fellow named Dustin. 😊

    norcal (3fd450)

  199. AG has a thread on Vivek’s flip-flopping, including his thing about climate change.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  200. Is it just me, or did the audience seem to turn on Ramaswamy towards the end?

    norcal (3fd450)

  201. I was pretty much ignoring the audience, so I’m afraid I don’t have any idea.

    Nic (896fdf)

  202. I agree with you about Haley being on her game, Nic.

    Can you imagine her debating Biden? She would run circles around him. So much that there might be an outpouring of sympathy for Biden.

    norcal (3fd450)

  203. I think she’d probably run him over. She’d be poised and smart and knowledgeable and she’s articulate. I don’t think Biden being your affable uncle on stage would help him. Maybe he still has the sharps to still hold his own, but I don’t think so.

    Nic (896fdf)

  204. Can you imagine her debating Biden? She would run circles around him. So much that there might be an outpouring of sympathy for Biden.

    We always tell ourselves that our candidate will whoop Biden’s ass in a debate, but we saw what happened with Sarah Palin in 2008, Mitt Romney in 2012, and Donald Trump in 2020. Hey, I get that Biden is nowhere near as cognizant as he was in his Palin and Romney debates, and he’s never been a particularly bright guy to begin with. But we saw that the debate format continually allows a guy like Biden (and Trump for that matter) to bluster, dissimilate, prevaricate, obfuscate, and flat-out bullshit to a degree where a honest debater doesn’t stand a chance. So I don’t think we can expect a Nikki Haley or a Ron DeSantis to rack up a decisive victory against Joe Biden in a Presidential debate, though hopefully they can win over a few hearts and minds.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  205. If nothing else we would get a Candy Crowley moment where the GOP candidate would find him/herself debating not only Biden, but also the moderator too.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  206. So, just an interesting factoid. Ramaswamey apparently had a Paul Soros fellowship. Yes, that Soros family.

    Nic (896fdf)

  207. If nothing else we would get a Candy Crowley moment

    JVW (1ad43e) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:17 pm

    I have a feeling (or is it just a hope?) Haley would counter the moderator more effectively than Romney did.

    norcal (3fd450)

  208. Nic (896fdf) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:23 pm

    Curious

    norcal (3fd450)

  209. AG has a thread on Vivek’s flip-flopping, including his thing about climate change.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/23/2023 @ 9:46 pm

    As the commenters in that thread point out, he previously acknowledged the existence of climate change, then tonight called the climate change agenda a hoax, so it’s not a perfect contradiction. Now I’d argue that for purposes of this discussion, climate change vs climate change agenda is a distinction without a difference. An agenda can’t be a hoax. The reasonable implication of what he said tonight is that the factual predicate for the agenda, climate change itself, is the hoax. Nonetheless, slim though it is, it’s a reed to which his defenders can cling.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  210. I shudder to think that Vivek could extend the duration of the Trump cult. He’s only 38.

    norcal (3fd450)

  211. I have a feeling (or is it just a hope?) Haley would counter the moderator more effectively than Romney did.

    “One of us is going to leave the room”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  212. I shudder to think that Vivek could extend the duration of the Trump cult. He’s only 38.

    Bubba is not going to flock to a brown, rich, Vegan Buddhist who wants to ban meat.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  213. Sorry, Hindu.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  214. Bubba is not going to flock to a brown, rich, Vegan Buddhist who wants to ban meat.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:52 pm

    I just watched an Iowa post-debate focus group hosted by CNN.

    Bubbas are flocking to him.

    norcal (3fd450)

  215. Also, he’s a nut.

    Ramaswamy supports expanding presidential power, pledging to rule by executive fiat to a degree unprecedented among modern U.S. presidents. He supports abolishing Department of Education and eliminating and replacing the FBI, and IRS. He asserts that the president has the unilateral power to abolish these agencies by executive order, although under the Constitution, Congress has the power of the purse. He has pledged to fire “at least half the federal workforce” and dismantle federal civil service protections, turning federal jobs into at-will jobs. He has called for an eight-year term for all government employees and pledged to revoke the executive order issued by President Kennedy that gave federal employees a right to collectively bargain. He also has proposed repealing the federal law that requires presidents to spend all the money Congress appropriates.

    Ramaswamy favors raising the standard voting age to 25.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  216. Bubbas are flocking to him.

    They don’t know him yet.

    He has described himself as an animal rights activist, writing that it is “wrong to kill sentient animals for culinary pleasure.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  217. Ramaswamy’s manners channel Trump, of course. I think I prefer Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  218. it is “wrong to kill sentient animals for culinary pleasure.”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 10:59 pm

    I almost choked on a dead animal reading that.

    norcal (3fd450)

  219. Get out your peace signs and love beads! Republican party is now the anti-war hippy vegitarian peace freaks party. Jane fonda get off the anti-aircraft gun republicans are going to shoot down zelensky with it!

    asset (be39e1)

  220. A perfect summation of Vivek, retweeted by our host.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  221. And of all the crazy things today, for some reason this tweet is the only one that made me LOL.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  222. Yeah that smile is just creepy. I can see his advisors telling him: Ron, just loosen up a bit…look like you are having fun! Then they watch and think, dear God!

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  223. I’ll tell you, comrades, I now have a kinder, gentler feeling for Trump supporters, you know, the ones who put Trump overwhelmingly ahead in the polls. I mean, these are their other choices?

    nk (7c2efa)

  224. The sad point was when the contingent was asked: if Trump was convicted, would they still support him as the nominee? Only Hutchinson’s and Christie’s hands stayed down. At that point, it was confirmed that the GOP was a syndicate. If we can’t agree that the President should not be a felon, then do any of the policy squabbles even matter? A candidate has 91 charges pending and the crowd and moderators couldn’t move fast enough away from dealing with that elephant…and its electability. The bus continues to be steered by the morally confused.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1)

  225. Only Hutchinson’s and Christie’s hands stayed down.

    Christie’s hand was more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkvmnLgrd-Q

    When Baier tried to save Christie, Asa stepped in with a believable response. Christie really struggled to read the audience.

    BuDuh (4e5f40)

  226. The best I can say is that perhaps they were confused about the extent of the pledge that they made to support the nominee. What precisely it means to support the nominee might also be a little nebulous. I would wager that is why Christie was waffling. I have no doubt that Christie will NOT support Trump in any meaningful way whether he is convicted or not. Those in the audience cheering seem perfectly fine with a President serving from prison. I guess this is where the law-and-order party is at these days: a syndicate.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  227. The sad point was when the contingent was asked: if Trump was convicted, would they still support him as the nominee? Only Hutchinson’s and Christie’s hands stayed down. At that point, it was confirmed that the GOP was a syndicate. If we can’t agree that the President should not be a felon, then do any of the policy squabbles even matter? A candidate has 91 charges pending and the crowd and moderators couldn’t move fast enough away from dealing with that elephant…and its electability. The bus continues to be steered by the morally confused.

    AJ_Liberty (3983d1) — 8/24/2023 @ 5:33 am

    Very Putinesque of you. He would applaud your resolve of using the State to jail your political opponents and using that to discredit them.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  228. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/08/ny-times-lets-the-mask-slip.php

    The commies at the NY Times agree with you AJ. They think elections are bad for civilization too because they might elect people you don’t support.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  229. @157

    “alongside Navy Seals”?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/23/2023 @ 7:47 pm

    He was attached and deployed with the Seals during the Iraq war surge.

    The seals don’t to deployment by themselves, they have a large team and infrastructure that supports the seals.

    whembly (5f7596)

  230. I think DeSantis and Haley were the only candidates that did what the needed to do.

    The others were, eh.

    whembly (5f7596)

  231. Very Putinesque of you.

    No, it’s rule of lawesque. All Trump had to do was concede the election and comply with a subpoena for the documents, and he wouldn’t be facing Jack Smith in court or getting his mugshot taken today, but no, your guy chose to be a criminal.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  232. @231 So, we’re dispensing with the presumption of innocence now?

    Good, good.

    Remember that standard going forward.

    whembly (5f7596)

  233. Haley’s best moment, and I am sincere about this, is when she told Brett and Martha that they needed to regain control of the mess they created. I really hate the “adult in the room” cliche because it is usually an immature dolt that claims to be the adult. Haley didn’t make any such claim, she just took a leadership role while everything around her looked like a limp wristed prison fight amongst insurance salesmen.

    I wonder if her direction to the derelict moderators will make it into the transcript.

    BuDuh (4e5f40)

  234. All Trump had to do was concede the election

    What day did Trump leave the Whitehouse?

    BuDuh (4e5f40)

  235. Wasn’t Desantis JAG? I’m not going to bag on JAG officers, I have a good friend from college who went in that direction, but they aren’t taking down Fallujah any more than the assistant district attorney is knocking down doors to make a drug bust.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/23/2023 @ 7:54 pm

    LOL! I remember someone here who pointed that out and he got roasted…….oh, wait that was me.

    Rip Murdock (6347cf)

  236. BuDuh thinks leaving the White House while denying the validity of the election is conceding the election.

    It’s a standard he would never apply to Stacey Abrams.

    How does that sort of comment contribute to rational discussion? It’s just annoying and stupid trolling. I don’t appreciate it.

    Are you capable of better, BuDuh? If so, let’s see it. If not, get off my site.

    Patterico (7a1f85)

  237. Very Putinesque of you. He would applaud your resolve of using the State to jail your political opponents and using that to discredit them.

    He would applaud your resolve of allowing Trump to commit crimes without consequence.

    See how that tone is annoying and counterproductive?

    Is it truly your view that if Trump committed crimes, he should not be prosecuted for them if his political opponent is in office? Does that really seem like a good rule to you?

    Patterico (228f5a)

  238. Even if DeSantis’ service was well well behind the Navy Seals, his service was both noble and appreciated. It’s a big plus that he chose military service. Now his call to invade Mexico…I do have questions about THAT.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  239. I know people get all excitable and outraged and self-righteous in campaign season, but I am determined to have good commenters not treated like shit by partisan shills.

    Patterico (7a1f85)

  240. Goodbye, Pat.

    BuDuh (4e5f40)

  241. What day did Trump leave the Whitehouse?

    Did Trump publicly concede that he lost the election or not? This isn’t hard.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  242. @238

    Even if DeSantis’ service was well well behind the Navy Seals, his service was both noble and appreciated. It’s a big plus that he chose military service. Now his call to invade Mexico…I do have questions about THAT.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 8/24/2023 @ 8:17 am

    He certainly wasn’t “knocking doors” as Seals do. His role was more for the team support.

    However, do you have citation on that DeSantis would support invading Mexico?

    I agree, that’s an insane idea.

    Now, using diplomacy, using special forces to take out Cartel installations and the likes should be on the table.

    But, actual invasion and occupation? No. Dumb af.

    whembly (5f7596)

  243. Here’s an NFT version of Trump’s mugshot.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  244. However, do you have citation on that DeSantis would support invading Mexico?

    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said at the first GOP presidential primary debate on Wednesday that he would authorize military force into Mexico as a way to tackle the Mexican drug cartels funneling fentanyl into the U.S.

    DeSantis, who has previously promised to authorize lethal force at the border against drug smugglers, was asked if he would support sending U.S. Special Forces over the border into Mexico to take out fentanyl labs and the operations of drug cartels.

    “Yes, and I will do it on day one,” he said.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  245. @231 So, we’re dispensing with the presumption of innocence now?

    This forum is a court of public opinion, not law. The only thing I presume about Trump is that everything he says is false until proven true.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  246. Sending the military into Mexico has become a standard talking point for nearly all the Republican candidates.

    They’ve been watching Clear and Present Danger one too many times.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  247. Trump had a choice on 1/20/2021, leave White House grounds of his own volition or, if he didn’t, Joe Biden would be calling the Secret Service and ordering them to remove the trespasser.
    Voluntarily leaving in lieu of being forcibly removed is in no way a concession that he lost.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  248. The seals don’t to deployment by themselves, they have a large team and infrastructure that supports the seals.

    So, he slept near their barracks? His statement was intended to convey something else.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  249. I agree, that’s an insane idea.

    Now, using diplomacy, using special forces to take out Cartel installations and the likes should be on the table.

    How is sending in Special Forces different from an invasion? Both violate Mexican sovereignty. What if Americans are captured or killed while in Mexico? Do you hold the Mexican government responsible, even if we hadn’t asked their permission?

    What do we do when the cartels retaliate through bombings, assassinations, and kidnappings in the US, just as they do in Mexico?

    The idea of sending any military force into Mexico is a bad idea. It’s was done once before, and it was just as unsuccessful as this idea will be.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  250. @231 So, we’re dispensing with the presumption of innocence now?

    If I see a guy mug someone, I will not “presume innocence.” The court may have to, but I do not.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  251. The seals don’t to deployment by themselves, they have a large team and infrastructure that supports the seals.

    Gotta have your lawyer along.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  252. They’ve been watching Clear and Present Danger one too many times

    If so, they had the sound turned off.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  253. Since Republicans say they don’t need evidence of direct payments to Biden to prove corruption, the same standard should be applied to Trump, where the evidence is in plain sight.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  254. The idea of sending any military force into Mexico is a bad idea. It’s was done once before, and it was just as unsuccessful as this idea will be.

    It was actually done twice. The first time was quite successful, adding California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and parts of Utah and Texas to the USA. We actually got more than that, but gave the rest back.

    The only downside was that the new territories precipitated the Civil War by raising the “expansion of slavery” argument to a much higher level.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  255. So, we’re dispensing with the presumption of innocence now?

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  256. “Alongside US Navy SEALs” makes it sound like DeSantis was right next to Special Forces while storming a beach, not their legal advisor.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  257. It does make for a Monty Python sketch. Dave Allen had one of Scottish commandos going on a clandestine night raid with a bagpiper.

    nk (4c3e53)

  258. Sigh. If only that was the most “meatball” thing about DeSantis.

    nk (4c3e53)

  259. @253

    Since Republicans say they don’t need evidence of direct payments to Biden to prove corruption, the same standard should be applied to Trump, where the evidence is in plain sight.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/24/2023 @ 9:05 am

    Isn’t that already happening to Trump?

    whembly (5f7596)

  260. @259. Not even remotely.

    Time123 (c49e34)

  261. Isn’t that already happening to Trump?

    whembly (5f7596) — 8/24/2023 @ 10:03 am

    No, regarding Trump the evidence against him is well documented, unlike the allegations against President Biden.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  262. Trump suggests in Carlson interview that U.S. could see more political violence:
    ……….
    Asked by former Fox News host Tucker Carlson whether the nation is headed toward open conflict, Trump responded: “I don’t know. I can say this: There’s a level of passion that I’ve never seen. There’s a level of hatred that I’ve never seen. And that’s probably a bad combination.”
    ……….
    “Jan. 6 was a very interesting day because they don’t report it properly,” he told Carlson in the previously recorded interview, which was posted Wednesday night on X, the website formerly known as Twitter. “People in that crowd said it was the most beautiful day they ever experienced. There was love and unity. I have never seen such spirit and such passion and such love. And I’ve also never seen, simultaneously and from the same people, such hatred at what they’ve done to our country.”
    ……….
    Earlier in the interview, Trump repeatedly avoided Carlson’s invitations to speculate on whether he could be targeted for assassination.

    “The next stage is violence,” Carlson said. “Are you worried they’re going to try to kill you? Why wouldn’t they try to kill you?”

    Trump did not directly answer. Carlson tried again later. “If you chart it out it’s an escalation,” Carlson said, recounting the two impeachments and four indictments against Trump. “So what’s next? They’re trying to put you in prison for the rest of your life, that’s not working. So don’t they have to kill you now?” Trump again avoided answering directly.
    ……….
    ……….In a local talk radio interview in Iowa in July, host Doug Wagner repeatedly pressed Trump on the prospect of how his supporters could react if he were detained pending trial. “It’s a dangerous thing to even talk about because we do have a very passionate group of voters,” Trump said. “Nobody’s even suggested this except you.”
    ……….

    Tucker Carlson egging on his viewers to threaten violence.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  263. @260

    @259. Not even remotely.

    Time123 (c49e34) — 8/24/2023 @ 10:08 am

    Wait… wait. So Trump’s not indicted for those plainly corrupt activites???

    Are you sure we’re not crossing our wires here?

    whembly (5f7596)

  264. Of course it is whembly. But there are none so blind…

    NJRob (a34cf9)

  265. @256

    “Alongside US Navy SEALs” makes it sound like DeSantis was right next to Special Forces while storming a beach, not their legal advisor.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/24/2023 @ 9:19 am

    This is pettiness.

    At no point did DeSantis make it sound like he was conducting special forces actions along side the Seals.

    It’s YOU who’s erroneously making it sound like there’s some stolen valor there when there isn’t.

    whembly (5f7596)

  266. “So Trump’s not indicted for those plainly corrupt activites???”

    Isn’t he indicted because the prosecutor presented evidence to a grand jury supporting the elements of the crime? No one gets indicted because partisans make accusations. There does need to be evidence, and enough of it to satisfy the burden such as a reasonable doubt. At trial, the defense tests the evidence and questions whether the burden is met. Biden won’t get indicted if there is no direct evidence and very little circumstantial evidence.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  267. Gang, I just re-registered to vote in California and changed my party affiliation from No Party Preference back to GOP.

    The California GOP has rigged its Super Tuesday primary in favor of Donald Trump:

    ………
    ………Under the old rules, Republican presidential candidates could win three delegates in each congressional district in California, which allowed them to target specific areas without running an expensive statewide campaign. In previous primaries, multiple candidates could walk away with at least some delegates under their belts.
    ………
    But for the March primary, if any candidate can secure more than 50% of the votes statewide, they will get all 169 delegates…… If no one wins a majority, the delegates will be awarded proportionately based on each candidate’s share of the statewide vote. Currently, California is one of 14 states set to hold their presidential primary on March 5, but it offers the biggest chunk of the estimated 1,234 delegates needed to win the Republican nomination.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  268. Source for post 267.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  269. #267 and #268 Rip – Thanks for that info.

    Jim Miller (89da91)

  270. Ron DeSantis (01:41:50):

    Yes, and I will do it on day one. Here’s the thing, the cartels are killing tens of thousands of our fellow citizens. You want to talk about a country in decline? You have the cartels controlling a lot of part of your southern border.

    What kind of nonsense is this?

    The cartels control part of the northern border of Mexico. (also some other places in Mexico)

    https://www.utrgv.edu/human-trafficking/blog/northern-mexico/gulfcartel/index.htm

    In recent years, transnational criminal organizations have fought over cities in the northern state of Tamaulipas. The Gulf Cartel currently controls the border cities of Matamoros and Reynosa. Both cities have suffered high levels of violence since the Mexican government launched an offensive to capture Gulf Cartel leaders in these cities. One of the consequences of the government’s operations was that the cartel broke into smaller factions, each contending for vacant leadership positions. One of the sources of revenue for the Gulf Cartel is migrant smuggling. In both cities, occurrences of human trafficking for compelled criminal activities have been reported. Unofficial sources indicate that forced recruitment of migrants and locals is widespread. ..

    ….The two cities experience a high influx of migrants. However, unlike cities in southern and central Mexico where migrants only come from the south, Matamoros and Reynosa also experience an influx from migrants coming from the north. The United States deports a significant amount of migrants to Matamoros and Reynosa on a daily basis.

    In other words, some deported people become foot soldiers for the cartels when they weren’t before…

    Experts told us that migrants in Reynosa were unmolested while they waited to cross into the United States with the assistance of migrant smugglers. Nowadays, however, organized crime in Reynosa kidnaps, extorts, and force migrants to commit crimes. Extortion, ransom payment, and compelled labor for criminal activities usually take place in cartel’s safe houses. Migration experts and advocates reported that TCOs have now complete control over the illegal migration moving north.

    Brilliant strategy!

    This is because it’s mindless. Because nobody cares what goes on outside of the United States.

    They keep on saying “southern border, southern border”

    All this is because we made it virtually impossible for an ordinary person to cross the border on their own.

    Immigration enforcement built up the cartels, and didn’t even get them to abandon their drug business. And there customs enforcement created fentanyl.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  271. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/24/2023 @ 8:55 am

    How is sending in Special Forces different from an invasion? Both violate Mexican sovereignty.

    So do drone strikes in Syria, Yemen and other places.

    What if Americans are captured or killed while in Mexico?

    You’ve got the same problem in any war. Of course you could limit yourself to drones. The cartels will try planting false intelligence to get the united States to kill innocent people.

    Do you hold the Mexican government responsible, even if we hadn’t asked their permission?

    You could treat Mexico like Pakistan was treated in 2001.

    What do we do when the cartels retaliate through bombings, assassinations, and kidnappings in the US, just as they do in Mexico?

    You’ve got to leave the a way to retreat.

    The idea of sending any military force into Mexico is a bad idea. It’s was done once before, and it was just as unsuccessful as this idea will be.

    It worked in Afghanistan for twenty years. And U.S. casualties were reduced to just about zero by 2020 – until Biden decided to make sure they stayed at zero by leaving Afghanistan. The terrorists wanted to make sure they killed some U.S. soldiers as a reminder to stay out.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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