Patterico's Pontifications

5/24/2022

Another Horrific School Shooting Today (UPDATE ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:31 pm



[guest post by Dana]

This latest mass casualty incident took place in Texas, 85 miles west of San Antonio:

Fourteen students and a teacher are dead after a shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, according to Gov. Greg Abbott.

The 18-year-old suspect, a student at Uvalde High School, is also dead, he said.

“He shot and killed horrifically and incomprehensibly 14 students and killed a teacher,” Abbott said during an unrelated press briefing.

The suspect also allegedly shot his grandmother before entering the school and again opening fire, Abbott said. He did not say anything further about her condition.

Abbott said the shooter — identified by law enforcement sources and the governor as Salvador Ramos — had a handgun and also possibly a rifle.

Additionally, law enforcement and the National Counterrorism Center don’t believe there is a “terrorism nexus” at this time.

Also, there seems to be uncertainty about the number of fatalities. While Gov. Abbott said 14 students and one teacher had been killed, a local hospital reported that two people were killed and dozens more were injured. It’s early days yet, so things are bound to change as new information becomes public.

This is just gutting. I really can’t imagine the horror these families must be going through today. Not even remotely.

UPDATE:

The death toll from a shooting at a school in Uvalde, Texas rose to 18 children and 3 adults Tuesday night after an 18-year-old gunman opened fire inside an elementary school earlier in the day…Three people wounded in the attack are hospitalized in serious condition, Gutierrez told The Associated Press.

As a reminder, Robb Elementary School serves second, third, and fourth-grade students (about 7, 8, and 9 years old).

–Dana

227 Responses to “Another Horrific School Shooting Today (UPDATE ADDED)”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  2. The price we pay for the 2nd amendment. 14 dead grade schoolers or 20 is a small price to pay. Right?

    asset (1009d6)

  3. This is just gutting. I really can’t imagine the horror these families must be going through today. Not even remotely.

    Echoes of Sandy Hook. 2nd, 3rd and 4th graders. It’s wretched. Have a very close friend who operates a victims rights organization; their hands are full this very day w/t holes left to families in Buffalo– and now this… been on the phone to ’em already; the damage and wreckage from these remains for decades. And the scammers are at the ready to take $, too. Remember going to elementary school and always feeling safe? Those times are long gone. There’s something seriously broken within American society. And the rest of the world sees and knows it.

    DCSCA (cc071a)

  4. If this tracks the Sandy Hook case, he shot the grandmother to get the guns. I think 18 is too young to legally buy a gun.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  5. The price we pay for the 2nd amendment. 14 dead grade schoolers or 20 is a small price to pay. Right?

    Hard to say. We don’t know how many lives are saved by someone having a gun. If we judged cars only by people mowing down folks on a sidewalk, we’d think cars were an unreasonable danger, too. Or bathtubs, for that matter.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  6. @4. that’s an interesting proposal. Yet 18 year olds are handed taxpayer bought guns in the military. Obviously something is seriously broken in American civil society. And it makes ‘marketing’ American values overseas all the harder. The rest of the world sees it, and in the 21st century, shrugs; leaves it behind and moves on.

    DCSCA (cc071a)

  7. In John Brunner’s 1968 masterpiece “Stand on Zanzibar” he predicted sprees of violence by “muckers” who would, for no apparent reason, start killing people with whatever weapon was at hand. He seems to have been successful in this prediction. In England, it’s knives, here, it’s guns.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  8. nk must remember John Brunner’s “Stand on Zanzibar.” In it, people would go nuts from time to time and kill randomly. They were called “muckers” (I guess from “gone amok”).

    It’s all so sad, and people rush to find solutions, but they are within.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  9. OMG, Kevin. It’s like we are friends with one mind.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  10. I think 18 is too young to legally buy a gun.

    I believe the law says that 18 is too young to legally buy a gun.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  11. Christ, what an imagination I’ve got.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  12. I once put a cover on a textbook and labeled the spine THE HIPCRIME VOCAB

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  13. The funny thing is I haven’t read that since high school (shortly after it came out). It was a pretty heavy book for high school.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  14. ‘…when the strain gets to be ‘Too Much’…”

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  15. Kevin, I read a bunch of things too young. Brunner among them.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  16. CBS has pulled the season finale of “FBI” due to it’s theme of a school shooting.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  17. In England, it’s knives, here, it’s guns.

    As posted before, at an early meeting w/some Brits at a social gathering when we moved to London, the very question asked of us as Americans was where we kept our guns. We thought the were joking; we owned no guns. They were dead serious. Their response was: “Everybody in America has guns.” They believe this. That was the perception; and popular culture only magnified it and reinforced the image of the U.S. as a very violent society. The anti-war riots at the time televised worldwide didn’t help. The Metropolitan Police at that time didn’t even carry sidearms. As cities go, it was safe; until the IRA started setting off car bombs at random.

    DCSCA (cc071a)

  18. It will be de ja vu all over again. Calls to ban “assault weapons” and to do something, federally. Most suggestions will likely be irrelevant to this shooting…..background checks, red flag laws, bump stocks, assault weapons, and maybe even magazine capacity. I tend to think red flag laws with some enhanced individual protections are probably a good idea. More supervised background checks for gun shows and personal transfers seem reasonable. Still, it’s valid to say that nothing is full proof and criminals and disturbed individuals will push the boundaries.

    There are other affluent countries that have violent video games and mental health problems that do not have the level of violence we have. Some of that is gun saturation and somewhat…always grudgingly… an acceptance of the violence. Arming teachers and posting security guards will be the suggestion…but where does that money come from? And are teachers going to want to accept that responsibility? It’s an awful situation and horribe for those parents. Hearts and minds must change…I think we sit on a powder keg of anger and rage. Step one is to turn down the volume…..but we will have to want to do that.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  19. May the Lord comfort the families and friends. Words fail

    EPWJ (ded958)

  20. What is to be done. Arrest and prosecute politicians who vote against gun control for accessory to murder and only victims of gun violence put on the jury.

    asset (1009d6)

  21. CNN reports death toll now risen to 18; grandmother reportedly still alivel shoter had purchased two assault rifles, per Texas state senator comments- on his 18th birthday tipped plans to random woman on Instagram.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  22. Words fail

    Usually do; actions speak louder than words.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  23. We need actions not words. Ted cruz is evil devil!

    asset (1009d6)

  24. Texas seems to have its own wave of mass killings, without even counting such events at Fort Hood or Waco. In last 30 years, there have been mass killings at Sutherland Springs Church (2017, 27 killed); Luby’s Cafeteria (1991, 24); El Paso Walmart (2019, 23); Santa Fe HS (2018, 10); Plano (2017, 9), Harris County (2015, 8); Wedgwood Baptist Church (1999, 8); and Midland–Odessa (2019, 7).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  25. Biden will speak at 8:15

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  26. Arming teachers and posting security guards will be the suggestion…but where does that money come from? And are teachers going to want to accept that responsibility?

    Why just there? Why not grocery stores, gas stations, Walmarts, baseball stadiums, NFL parking lots; subway systems, train stations, bus lines, movie theaters, toll booths, libaries, street corners, coffee shops, restaurants — every place any Americans gather. Why not issue a piece to every citizen the day they’re born– or sign up for Social Security; here’s your SS number and your pistol. Where does this end– it’s madness. A close friend had a relative killed at the Aurora movie theater slaughter in Colorado; have spoken with the husband of a victim shot and killed at the King Sooper in Boulder via a victims right organization. The wounds never heal. And if Joe goes that route tonight and brings up Beau, damn him to hell. He can’t blame this one on Putin.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  27. Further update; 18 children dead; 2 adults killed.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  28. From one evil in Buffalo to another evil in Uvalde. Sickening. This one smells a lot like Sandy Hook.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  29. What is to be done. Arrest and prosecute politicians who vote against gun control for accessory to murder and only victims of gun violence put on the jury.

    I hope you find a country like that to live in, somewhere else. Maybe Mao’s China.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  30. @24: How many of those places were “gun free”?

    There have been other shootings where 1 or two people were shot before the gunman was stopped by someone else with a gun. That’s the way it should be.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  31. What is to be done? Serious, and I mean serious enforcement of the current gun laws. Felon with a gun? Twenty years, or maybe chop off his hand if we have too many people in prison.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  32. Texas allows rifle ownership at 18. Its 21 to buy a handgun from an FFL, but OK to buy one privately “…a private citizen may sell, gift, lease etc. a handgun to anyone over 18 who is not a Felon… “

    steveg (dad4ff)

  33. What is to be done? Serious, and I mean serious enforcement of the current gun laws. Felon with a gun? Twenty years……

    I would venture to say most mass killers don’t have felony records, so your proposal wouldn’t apply. Of the Texas killings listed in #24:

    Sutherland Springs Church (Yes, domestic violence)
    Luby’s Cafeteria (No record)
    El Paso Walmart (No)
    Santa Fe HS (No)
    Plano (No)
    Harris County (Yes, various felonies)
    Wedgwood Baptist Church (No)
    Midland–Odessa (No criminal record, determined to be “mentally unfit.” Bought gun through a private sale.)
    Robb Elementary (No, pending updated information).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  34. In Texas a felon in possession of a firearm will face up to 10 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $10,000.

    Unlawful possession of firearm crimes are punishable as follows:

    Class A Misdemeanor — Up to one year in jail and/or a fine of up to $4,000

    Third-Degree Felony — Up to 10 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $10,000

    Texas Penal Code § 12.42 imposes aggravated consequences for individuals deemed habitual felony offenders. Under this statute, if the alleged offender has been previously convicted of a felony other than a state jail felony, he or she can be punished for a second-degree felony, which can be a sentence of up to 20 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $10,000 if convicted for unlawful possession of a firearm.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  35. ABC News: President Joe Biden will address Americans [from the Roosevelt Room] in the terrible wake of Tuesday’s shooting at a Texas elementary school that left at least 14 young children dead. … He will address the nation at 8:15 PM EDT.

    =crickets= It’s now 8:30 PM in Washington: NoShowJoe. Forget to reset your watch to eastern time, Joe? Jet lag? Or is it Putin’s fault you’re late, too.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  36. UPDATE ADDED:

    The death toll from a shooting at a school in Uvalde, Texas rose to 18 children and 3 adults Tuesday night after an 18-year-old gunman opened fire inside an elementary school earlier in the day…Three people wounded in the attack are hospitalized in serious condition, Gutierrez told The Associated Press.

    As a reminder, Robb Elementary School serves second, third, and fourth-grade students (about 7, 8, and 9 years old).

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  37. How does an 18yr old afford 2 rifles and body armor. Wait, how is anyone allowed to buy body armor? Looks like there is an instagram trail. Why the heck does an 18yr old have so much rage….and inhumanity. Is this the violence that asset is hoping for and encouraging from his side? Again, step 1, dial back the rhetoric that at some point only has one release….violence.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  38. Like with the Tops shooter, who is also 18, where are the parents here?
    Did they not have any inkling about what was going in their lives?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  39. And so, he implies the pain of loss he nd Jill know thnat was Beau; how many times can Irish Catholic Joe bark, ‘why, what, how, where in God’s name’…

    Can Christians Blaspheme God?

    Taking God’s name in vain means to use it in a pointless, careless, or even an angry way, and when we blaspheme His name, we are taking the holiest, highest name in the universe and treating it with disdain, and to profane His holy name is sin.’

    Read more: https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/can-christians-blaspheme-god/#ixzz7UFx370yD

    Such a tragedy. And such a tragic response to it.

    DCSCA (e9888c)

  40. You do understand he also lost a young daughter in a car crash, right? Stop being an azzhole.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  41. I would venture to say most mass killers don’t have felony records, so your proposal wouldn’t apply. Of the Texas killings listed in #24:

    That was clearly just one example. I said enforce the current laws. There are more laws than just that one.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  42. But really, the idea that “there are too many guns” is just cover for “outlaw all the guns.” All those people talking about “reasonable gun control laws” really mean “take all the guns.”

    Because, if you don’t, you will get some crazy person getting hold of a gun.

    And if you get rid of all the guns, you have the entire population dependant on the State for their protection. This is the real goal.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  43. In Texas a felon in possession of a firearm will face up to 10 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $10,000.

    How many people are in TX prisons for violating these laws? My guess is “damn few” only because it’s that way everywhere. Unless a person is charged with another crime, the gun possession thing never comes up.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  44. You do understand he also lost a young daughter in a car crash, right? Stop being an azzhole.

    His wife and daughter.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  45. @40. AJ- Stop projecting like Joe; BTW, your fly is still down.

    ____

    Update: 19 children dead; 2 teachers.

    DCSCA (829516)

  46. Like with the Tops shooter, who is also 18, where are the parents here?
    Did they not have any inkling about what was going in their lives?

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 5/24/2022 @ 5:50 pm

    Some of them do, but they typically either enable their alienation or are just completely disengaged.

    The two people who attacked the STEM school in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, were radical left in their politics, drug addicts, and one of them is transgender. The one who attacked Arapahoe High School, just a few miles away, was also a radical left ideologue. The one who attacked the King Soopers in Boulder is a mentally ill Syrian Arab.

    You can imagine how reticent the local Denver press was to go in to too much detail about these individuals, unlike Harris and Klebold or James Holmes, the Aurora theater shooter.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  47. Keep an eye out for some Soros-funded “grassroots” movement to pop up after this like another March For Our Lives.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  48. Don’t care if he lost his car keys: this isn’t about him. Which he always tries to do.

    DCSCA (829516)

  49. Oh God, and now comes the part where we turn to Steve Kerr and LeBron James for their opinions. This is such a horrible story that the last thing we need to do is cheapen it by seeking out the NBA’s take on the matter.

    JVW (020d31)

  50. Memo to Joe:

    God helps those who help themselves.

    DCSCA (829516)

  51. The one who attacked the King Soopers in Boulder is a mentally ill Syrian Arab.

    As with the Jared Loughner attack in Tucson, the most aggravating part is when people later say stuff like, “Yeah, we really knew he had a screw loose and we were afraid something like this would eventually happen.” The Boulder shooter’s family later admitted as much, and the community college where he attended was so freaked out by Loughner’s actions that they banned him from campus, but “student confidentially rights” allegedly prevented them from reporting their concerns to the Pima County Sheriff. I really hope that we don’t hear that people close to the Ulvalde shooter had suspicions that he might be dangerous, but for whatever reasons decided not to do anything about it.

    JVW (020d31)

  52. trump, abbot and cruz will attend n.r.a. convention in texas in a few days. Now thats real bravery.

    asset (1fd518)

  53. “But really, the idea that “there are too many guns” is just cover for “outlaw all the guns.”

    That’s a bit of a strawman. As ambiguous and arbitrary as it was, there used to be an “assault weapons” ban….which did not include outlawing all handguns, shotguns, and other rifles. I get that folks love their AR-15’s….and it has its place as a weapon to protect one’s house….and it’s frustrating listening to many commentators today talk about how much more lethal that they are versus a rifle without the largely cosmetic features….but maybe there is a psychological component to this. Meaning, these are guns that are being romanticized….that are being marketed. Look at the story of Outdoorsman Jim Zumbo for some perspective….and the visceral over-reaction to his pointed comments.

    I know that not all killings are with AR-15 rifles or with rifles with pistol grips and muzzle suppressors. A pistol will accomplish the same goal….with extended magazine or not. I get it. But should we do something about the commonness that we have about weapons, that an 18yr old can go into a shop and spend ~$2k on guns and ammo and no one blinks (let’s exclude discussion of body armor for a second). He can’t drink and will have trouble renting a car, but a cache of gun power….no problem…liberty….I guess. We’re not heading toward confiscation….that’s hyperbole. But should we slow things down. We’re probably heading toward 400M guns (and how many more suicides). The solution of insisting on even more guns and turning our schools into bunkers seems…well….depressing.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  54. DCCCP: “BTW, your fly is still down.”

    Please lose your obsession with my crotch, it will only contribute more to your feelings of inadequacy

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  55. @51. Have had some close dealings w/victims and a victims rights organization involved with the aftermath of these tragedies. The scammers show up like ants on a sugar cube and try to exploit it and deepen the wounds for the survivors when the financials of tragedies like this come into play– and once the cameras leave and the press moves on to something else, the damage, loss and wounds still fester with individuals for years. And every family has a different story and reaction. The damage to the families and circle of people around those lost never really heals.

    DCSCA (829516)

  56. @54. But AJ- you brought it up to begin with; just zip it. 😉

    DCSCA (829516)

  57. More thorough red flag laws to start with. Why every state doesn’t have them is beyond me.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  58. He can’t drink and will have trouble renting a car, but a cache of gun power….no problem…liberty….I guess. We’re not heading toward confiscation….that’s hyperbole.

    And how did the U.S. react to the plethora of airplane hijackings in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, AJ; they certainly curtailed ‘freedom of travel’ by establishing plenty of hoops to jump through just to board an aircraft. It certainly didn’t stop all of them; see 9/11 for details; but it dampened them occurring for sure– and post-9/11, the screws were tighten even more. But consider this: would you trade 20th century abortion rights for stronger, smarter 21st century gun control? We could ask Scalia, but he’s dead. Which brings to mind– over 3 weeks, still no SCOTUS leaker outed. Why not?

    DCSCA (829516)

  59. More thorough red flag laws to start with. Why every state doesn’t have them is beyond me.

    Dana (2c7c1d) — 5/24/2022 @ 7:24 pm

    I recall that this was the argument for background checks when those were first implemented. It was revived for the first iteration of red flag laws.

    I doubt even more stringent red flag laws are going to prevent these incidents. They’ve been thoroughly baked-in ever since the mass media hysteria over Columbine, because the shooter knows they can inflict a lot of damage and make a name for themselves.

    Reforming mass society from the atomized, low-trust state that it’s in, enabled by the relentless alienation campaign of our cultural elites, is a better antidote than passing yet more restrictive laws. But I doubt we’re at a point as a nation where that kind of state is even salvageable. So, as Kevin pointed out, people are going to have to prepare for the gun bans to come down the pike, even though that’s not going to solve the core problem any more than the Assault Weapons Ban of the 1990s did.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  60. More thorough red flag laws to start with. Why every state doesn’t have them is beyond me.

    Wholly agree. These people are slipping through the cracks too easily and each event lends itself to the next and only serves as encouragement. There’s little to deter other than their own self-control.

    DCSCA (829516)

  61. red flag laws are not popular with some because many of the experts that would be assembled to decide your fate would be anti gun zealots who would gladly see you as collateral damage for the greater good.
    in some ways its like the people who want to limit speech that is “harmful” or “disinformation”.
    maybe we should give in and have a ministry of disinformation and red flags led by government appointees that can ignore the supreme court rulings on speech and 2A.
    18 year olds will fall through the cracks unless their body of work has been exceptionally public and egregious

    steveg (dad4ff)

  62. this is Elise Stefanik’s fault

    Liz Cheney just hasn’t figured out how yet

    JF (f25071)

  63. @52. trump, abbot and cruz will attend n.r.a. convention in texas in a few days. Now thats real bravery.

    It’s “something”… but it begins with ‘s’ not ‘b’.

    NRA Was ‘Foreign Asset’ To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals

    The National Rifle Association acted as a “foreign asset” for Russia in the period leading up to the 2016 election, according to a new investigation unveiled Friday by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore

    https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals

    … and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (829516)

  64. David a French is very good today:

    A well-drafted red flag law should contain abundant procedural safeguards, including imposing a burden of proof on the petitioner, hearing requirements, and a default expiration date unless the order is renewed through a clear showing of continued need. But its potential effectiveness (unlike the gun control measures Kessler analyzed in 2015) is crystal clear.

    In 2018—after the horrific school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey proposed a comprehensive safe schools program that incorporated a series of measures that were based on careful analysis of each and every significant school shooting since Columbine. I’d urge you to read the entire document. Ducey proposed enhanced background checks, an increased security presence at schools, and increased mental health resources. He also proposed a red flag law, and to support that proposal he included this chart (which may be easier to read here)

    …in every one of the deadliest school shootings, the shooter exhibited behavior before the shooting that could have triggered a well-drafted red flag law.

    New York had red flag laws, but the shooter to fall through the cracks. Consequently, Hochul tightened up the law after the shooting. It’s just not enough to have the law, there also has to be a clear understanding of the responsibility of law enforcement, teachers, parents, etc to act on them. As French points out, laws don’t enforce themselves.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  65. @64. If we can curtail airplane hijackings, we should be capable of managing this and still maintain the essence o/t 2nd amendment. It won’t stop all the incidents, but it can deter. There was a time in my life when you could literally just show a boarding pass, walk on to a plane and fly off to your destination without a body cavity search and your luggage “rifled.” Certainly can’t do that today- but we, the many, tolerate it and adapt because of the transgressions of the few– as inconvenient as it may be, and still travel.

    DCSCA (829516)

  66. If you read French’s piece in its entirety, you can see the chart to which he is referring. Also, it’s so critical to note, as he observed: in every one of the deadliest school shootings (on the chart), the shooter exhibited behavior before the shooting that could have triggered a well-drafted red flag law.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  67. I agree with French that the hold must have a time limit and require new evidence to renew. Also, the person subject to the hold should be able to testify and present evidence why the hold is not warranted. This is the single biggest concern of gun enthusiasts. Otherwise, I think that there can be broad support.

    Perhaps even the possibility of a hold might make individuals start to have second thoughts about acting out. Right now social media exposure is their fuel….the possibility of having social media rants used against them might shut down or dampen that fantasy. Obviously it’s not a general cure…there will still be loners….and people that are too ambiguous to report and secure a hold. But just establishing the community concept of looking out for each other is a good thing.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  68. I would posit that a number of problems in the country could be reduced by mental health counseling in childhood. However we can’t provide that because it would be expensive (though probably not more expensive in reality than fighting the war on drugs or throwing people into jail for various violent acts or later mental health treatment) and because therapy is confidential even for kids and some kid might tell their therapist that they are gay or trans before they tell their parents.

    IMO it would also help if the sane people would remember that a gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. We have an unnecessary gun fetish in this country and an inability to judge safety. One of my cousins is bipolar. One time when he was a teenager his mother was screeching at him (she’s a screechy woman and not my relative 😛 ) and he went up, got one of his father’s guns, brought it back downstairs and told his mother that he would shoot her if she didn’t leave him alone. My otherwise sane uncle did not get rid of his guns (or move them to my g’mother’s basement, where no one would be threatened by them since she couldn’t get down the stairs any more) because he needed his guns in his no crime middle class suburban planned neighborhood even though he was demonstratively less safe having guns in the house with his manic teenager.

    I also think that people should have to have and maintain safety knowledge and ability to use the gun on an ongoing basis in order to legally own a particular firearm.

    Nic (896fdf)

  69. This is the single biggest concern of gun enthusiasts.

    The ‘single biggest concern of gun enthusiasts’ is the ol’ “nose-of-the-camel-under-the-tent” syndrome.

    DCSCA (bd6bf7)

  70. IMO it would also help if the sane people would remember that a gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

    Except, unlike a hammer, a saw or a screwdriver, [or even a banana BTW] which by design, have a specific function in life, a gun is a ‘tool’ designed to kill. Big difference. It’s primarily a weapon, not a tool; ask John Cleese and Graham Chapman:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S66J4TZR40&t=11s

    DCSCA (bd6bf7)

  71. @40 BTW, AJ, lest you forget, Neilia Biden, and 13-month-old daughter, Naomi, were killed in a car accident; Beau Biden died of natural causes in a hospital bed. ; These 19 young, 2nd, 3rd and 4th graders – 7 to 10 years old- in Texas were deliberately murdered. Big difference. The obscenity is Joe’s calculated political penchant for always spinning tales to make tragedies and events about him with insincere empathy and faux, shouted outrage. It’s an easy tell. Some politicians can fake it; ‘azzholes’ like Joe Biden can’t.

    “Sincerity – if you can fake that, you’ve got it made.” – George Burns

    DCSCA (bd6bf7)

  72. From a previous thread:

    DCSCA never letting a tragedy go to waste without a snide comment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 5/24/2022 @ 2:49 pm

    @25. Pfft. Poor Rip: nothing snide about a statement of FACT.

    Pray the victims RIP; Rip.

    DCSCA (cc071a) — 5/24/2022 @ 2:52 pm

    I’m sorry DCSCA (aka Raymond Babbitt), I must have missed your compassion for the victims when you said “Another day of gun play in the good ol’ USA.”

    Rip Murdock (0bbf4f)

  73. The reason we still need all these guns is because people like our local liquidator might get into power.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  74. Oh God, and now comes the part where we turn to Steve Kerr and LeBron James for their opinions

    Huge men generally are against guns.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  75. As ambiguous and arbitrary as it was, there used to be an “assault weapons” ban….which did not include outlawing all handguns, shotguns, and other rifles.

    I remember back when everyone smoked, and they started passing “reasonable” laws about where one could smoke. Ans sure, it was reasonable not to smoke in a grocery store or on an elevator. Then one day you couldn’t smoke in the park or on the beach, or in the city of Carpenteria.

    And it became a real hassle to smoke and a lot of people quit (which was really the plan all along).

    Deja vu.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  76. Again, we only hear about guns when they are misused. People do not buy them so that they can be misused, they have other reasons for wanting them around. Protection, hunting, distrust of government, even sport shooting. There are about 400 million guns in the country and almost none of them are used in crimes.

    Every year there are several mass killings involving people driving cars into crowds. If this was all we ever heard about cars, we’d demand everyone ride the bus.

    As it is, guns are well regulated and controlled. 99.99% of them are in the hands of people who use then responsibly. Many in fact don’t use them, but simply keep them for eventualities. Not everyone can rely on the cops showing up when the sh1t hits the fan.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  77. I know that not all killings are with AR-15 rifles or with rifles with pistol grips and muzzle suppressors

    You misspelled “damn few”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  78. More thorough red flag laws to start with. Why every state doesn’t have them is beyond me.

    The objections are generally to the lack of proof required. Not all of them require a finding of fact, just a claim by someone who may have an axe to grind.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  79. I also think that people should have to have and maintain safety knowledge and ability to use the gun on an ongoing basis in order to legally own a particular firearm.

    Nic, there are a number of things I think would be of benefit, but the sad fact is I don’t trust the motives of the people proposing them. During his campaign, Biden made it clear that he’d round up all the guns if he could. The moment the State starts regulating something that the State HATES to have outside its monopoly, the temptation to tighten and squeeze becomes overwhelming. And pretty soon guns are only available to agents of the State.

    I suspect that some opposition to abortion restrictions, even “common sense” ones, like having access to a hospital if needed, is for similar reasons. Abortion supporters don’t trust the state of Texas not to nibble away until there’s nothing left. Same with this (actually enumerated) right.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  80. @Kevin@79 All laws in this country are a balance between control and freedom. Any law we make could slippery slope its way all the way into totalitarian dictatorship and any laws we refuse to make or reverse could start a snowball into anarchy. It’s all a risk where we go as far in one direction or the other as we can tolerate it until we don’t and then we tip in a different direction.

    Nic (896fdf)

  81. How many grade schoolers live are you willing to sacrafice on the alter of the second amendment? If you are being honest the number is unlimited.

    asset (effa36)

  82. @72. Sorry you did, too.

    DCSCA (d3c6e5)

  83. @75. And it became a real hassle to smoke and a lot of people quit (which was really the plan all along).

    But the difference is, Big Tobacco misled consumers of the addictive/deadly risk involved w/prolonged use their product.. for profit. “Most smokers use[d] tobacco regularly because they are addicted to nicotine.” – https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-nicotine-e-cigarettes/nicotine-addictive

    First came the mandated warning label on the product packages; then the designated smoking/non-smoking locales which were equally fair to smokers as much as non-smokers. Added incentive from insurance companies and employers also changed habits as well.

    DCSCA (d3c6e5)

  84. @81. That’s the ‘Americans care more about their guns than their kids’ argument.

    It’s a bit extreme. Though the kids have taken a beating, figuratively speaking, lately: first, a baby formula shortage; now the reality of hell. They can’t vote and don’t pay taxes; just like Ukrainians. Too bad the kids don’t have a union, or the AARP lobby – as the over 50 crowd does.

    DCSCA (d3c6e5)

  85. How many grade schoolers live are you willing to sacrafice on the alter of the second amendment? If you are being honest the number is unlimited.

    Well, I’d rather they shot marxists, to be honest.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  86. The truth is that gun control is to Republcians as abortion limits are to democrats. The same person here who thinks we have to ban guns to protect schoolkids has no problem with killing crowning infants for convenience.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  87. Just as I thought the number of children is unlimited you would let die for the second amendment.

    asset (effa36)

  88. @85. Well, I’d rather they shot marxists, to be honest.

    One morning a Marx shot an elephant in his pajamas. Was he gunning for Republicans? 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfN_gcjGoJo

    DCSCA (d3c6e5)

  89. @86. The truth is that gun control is to Republcians as abortion limits are to democrats. The same person here who thinks we have to ban guns to protect schoolkids has no problem with killing crowning infants for convenience.

    Got an email from a woman last night who blames the GOP for wanting to force women to have babies so they can kill them in schools w/guns. So there’s the other side of the same coin. It’s the crabgrass in the yard of a house on fire.

    DCSCA (d3c6e5)

  90. I know that not all killings are with AR-15 rifles or with rifles with pistol grips and muzzle suppressors. A pistol will accomplish the same goal….with extended magazine or not. I get it. But should we do something about the commonness that we have about weapons, that an 18yr old can go into a shop and spend ~$2k on guns and ammo and no one blinks (let’s exclude discussion of body armor for a second). He can’t drink and will have trouble renting a car, but a cache of gun power….no problem…liberty….I guess. We’re not heading toward confiscation….that’s hyperbole. But should we slow things down. We’re probably heading toward 400M guns (and how many more suicides). The solution of insisting on even more guns and turning our schools into bunkers seems…well….depressing.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed) — 5/24/2022 @ 7:12 pm

    Slow things down? How? Sure, we can follow French’s roadmap for red flag laws. We can close background check loopholes. But what difference will any of that make? With 400 million guns in our homes and on our streets, I suspect there will always be a gun available for every shooter who wants one.

    To be clear, I’m a lifelong gun lover. I’ve been shooting since I was barely as big as my first .22 rifle, and I’ve owned more guns than I can count, including all the evil ones (AR-15s, AKs, an Uzi, an HK SP5…) and plenty of the boring ones (trap and skeet guns, muzzle loaders, my dad’s service revolver, etc.). And despite all that, were it up to me I’d repeal the Second Amendment, even at the cost of all the enjoyment, not to mention security, guns have brought me. But I’d repeal it 40 years ago, before the country became flooded with an inexhaustible supply of guns – I obviously own some of the blame for that – and before the gun community became infected by a sub-culture that imposed a belligerent political agenda I believe dangerously contributes to and inflames our already overheated culture wars, making cooperative constructive change virtually impossible. (I resigned my NRA membership around the same time Bush Sr. did, for pretty much the same reasons he did.)

    But those things did happen, the Second Amendment is alive and well, and as such is entitled to broad deference. We shouldn’t be futzing around with the rights it guarantees just to feel like we’re doing something. So, returning to my question, what can we do that actually makes a difference? That actually saves a measurable number of lives? That doesn’t just satisfy our urge to do something for its own sake? Because it seems to me that those horses are out of the barn, both materially and culturally, and I don’t see a realistic way of getting them back in. And maybe under those circumstances the best thing to do, painful though it may be, is nothing.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  91. Perhaps giving Zelensky 40 billion was a mistake. Wondering if 40 billion spent on mental health issues in the U.S.A. would have been a better move. Political hacks know these incidents will continue as they have been for years, but hey give Zelensky are dough.

    mg (8cbc69)

  92. How many grade schoolers live are you willing to sacrafice on the alter of the second amendment? If you are being honest the number is unlimited.

    asset (effa36) — 5/25/2022 @ 12:06 am

    You’re just as likely to die in a drunk driving wreck as you are to be killed by someone with a firearm. But I don’t see gun confiscators lobbying to repeal the 21st Amendment, too.

    As I said above, you can either face up to the dysfunction of mass society, which gun violence is most certainly a symptom, and work on fixing that, or you can pass increasingly stringent laws and keep wondering why it doesn’t actually stop the violence from taking place.

    The reality is that school shootings are actually quite rare, even post-Columbine. What happened yesterday is a typical, what, month in Chicago? Two weeks? New York City’s had how many subway shootings now? But those places never get cited by the media as an example of America’s “gun fetish” gone wrong–I wonder why that is?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  93. But I’d repeal it 40 years ago, before the country became flooded with an inexhaustible supply of guns – I obviously own some of the blame for that – and before the gun community became infected by a sub-culture that imposed a belligerent political agenda I believe dangerously contributes to and inflames our already overheated culture wars, making cooperative constructive change virtually impossible.

    The belligerent political agenda came in response to an equally belligerent one from Handgun Control, Inc., and other gun control activists. The left never really did get over the NRA morphing from a hobbyist organization into a political advocacy group (“identify the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it”) after the former became especially vocal about banning firearms in the wake of RFK’s assassination, mainly because it was the one group that managed to effectively counter their agenda in the culture wars for decades. That it’s rotted out from within over the last ten years or so is hardly the point now, because they established a clear line of demarcation in one particular area of the nation’s culture that the left has failed to colonize and tear down in the last 50 years.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  94. Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 5/24/2022 @ 3:34 pm

    I believe the law says that 18 is too young to legally buy a gun.

    Certain types of guns; but the Supreme Court may declare that unconstitutional age discrimination. (I guess you could demand that anyone pay abig tax)

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  95. 18. AJ_Liberty (a36eed) — 5/24/2022 @ 3:59 pm

    More thorough red flag laws to start with

    No, we need green flag laws. And the determination not made by some expert, but by people who know the person. It is impossible to put your finger on exactly what makes for a risky bet.

    And certain weapons, like high capacity magazines, just should not exist. Period. They are of no use to an ethical defender. (it could reduce the number of people massacred)

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  96. “And maybe under those circumstances the best thing to do, painful though it may be, is nothing.”

    I guess we’ll find out eventually what motivated this 18yr old to shoot his grandma, then go on an unimaginable rampage. But after Columbine, I think we have a good suspicion. Some combination of psychopath and depressive, who finally wanted to be seen and understood and, frankly, cared about. Still a bit odd that he chose the elementary school versus his own high school to make his statement. I bring it up because, yes, probably an unsupervised 18yr old should not be buying multiple guns and body armor….and, yes, maybe a clearly articulated red flag law might have slowed down this demented fantasy, but is our culture simply going to keep producing psychopaths and sociopaths and depressives who see going out in a blaze of glory as attractive?

    The suicide rate in high schools is unspeakably high; the depression rate in college is also suprisingly high. Then we mix in radicalization of those isolated, be it right-wing or left-wing, and we have an unholy cauldron, with guns being the tool to act out spectacularly. What can be done culturally to alter this trajectory? Part of this must be social media and how we choose to treat each other. We ratchet up anxiety, hate, and anger then seem genuinely surprised when a handful out of 330M go over the edge and act on it. Maybe an 18yr old isn’t exactly caught up in the left/right hate fest, but what is unconsciously absorbed? Hope? Joy? Peace? Or something else? We choose how to behave and interact….and often without accountability — Just getting our jollies on the internet.

    Now getting back to guns. I agree with Kevin that 99.99% of guns are not used in crime/violence. But which of us are immune from psychoses or depression or fits of anger? Guns can defuse a situation or they can escalate it. I also agree that the genie is out of the bottle and it’s not clear what making 50M guns suddenly illegal will do. But maybe there is a psychological component to it. I know a lot of people with AR-15’s. I know people who got them precisely because the Left was railing against them. Most could sport shoot and defend their homes and family without them perfectly fine (they will say so). So they’ve taken on more than a function; they’re now a symbol and these deranged and outcast individuals see it too, but in a funhouse-distorted-mirror sort of way. Should it matter to us? Maybe bans exacerbate the change of tone that is required. Maybe bans start to change the tone. Maybe society’s loners and losers aren’t going to wait for us to decide.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  97. “Sincerity – if you can fake that, you’ve got it made.” – George Burns

    What Joe Biden commonly attempts to fake is empathy – sometimes to a situation which doesn’t really exist.

    He did less of that yesterday. He was more honest, but seems to think he knows the solution: Reduce manufacturing of ever more lethal guns and rifles. (it would only orevent some person from racking up a high score — but perhaps that would cause a lot to not bother.

    And he doesn’t seem to understand there are people who disagree. He did not acknowledge that or attept to reason with them.

    The real cause is someone having an unhappy life, combined with alack of a conscience — the killer soothes himself by aiming to kill people.

    More would do it if they didn’t want to avoid the consequences: being killed, sentenced to death or life imprisonment.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  98. 68. Nic (896fdf) — 5/24/2022 @ 8:34 pm

    I also think that people should have to have and maintain safety knowledge and ability to use the gun on an ongoing basis in order to legally own a particular firearm.

    Just the continuous approval, backed up with cash to be forfeited if the gun is stolen or used in a crime (guaranteed by being frozen in a bank account, or available as a line or credit or in a retirement account)

    Ten people, at least 3 of the opposite sex and at least two at least ten years older or more, or older than a certain age,

    If the person backs out or loses his or her money or passes away, he or she must be replaced within a month

    Call it a green flag or green light law.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  99. Shoot, Dana beat me to French’s advocacy for red flag laws.
    What gets me is that NY has a red flag law that could’ve prevented the Tops Market shooter from getting his weapons, but nobody filed an Extreme Risk Protection Order. Where were his parents?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  100. …probably working some common connections in the Court of record to have it get lost (both were public employees, that maneuver was also employed by the Gifford’s shooter in Tucson/Pima County).

    urbanleftbehind (8102d1)

  101. https://www.newser.com/story/320958/mom-was-with-him-at-school-ceremony-hours-later-he-was-slain.html

    The gunman, who was killed, was identified as a local 18-year-old, and a state senator says “the first thing he did on his 18th birthday” was buy the two military-style rifles he used in the shooting, Fox 7 reports. He shot his grandmother, with whom he apparently lived, after an argument, Click2Houston reports (reports differ on whether she survived) before driving to Uvalde’s Robb Elementary School. He crashed his car through a barrier and into a ditch, shot at police officers who responded, then made his way into the school. “At that point as he made entry he began shooting children, teachers, anybody that was in his way; he was shooting people that were in front of him,” a lieutenant says. The AP reports he went from classroom to classroom shooting.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  102. Paul Gosar (R-AZ), where the “R” stands for racist, asserted without a shred of evidence that the Uvalde shooter was a “transsexual leftist illegal alien.” can’t speak for the “transsexual leftist” part (and neither should Gosar), but Gov. Abbott stated that the kid was born in America.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  103. “Where were his parents?”

    Same thing with Salvador Ramos in Texas. It seems like the mother may have kicked him out and that he was living with the grandmother. The NYPost article is a little unclear but it sounds like the mother might also have drug problems. My guess is that he saw no future and was angry and this was his way to become infamous and leave his mark. He has to be a sociopath to not care about the damage he was inflicting. I suppose the story is similar with Gendron in Buffalo — teens get weird enough that their family’s don’t want to deal with them. It’s sad.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  104. asset
    give me a number and a timeframe
    Abortions are 625,346 per year and I think we can all agree we are not willing to lose that many children a year to gunfire

    steveg (356246)

  105. So far, I haven’t seen any mention of the gunman having a father, a grandfather, an uncle, or even an older brother in his life. He did have some money, since he worked at Wendy’s, where at least some of his co-workers thought he was creepy.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  106. Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 5/24/2022 @ 3:34 pm

    I believe the law says that 18 is too young to legally buy a gun.

    Certain types of guns; but the Supreme Court may declare that unconstitutional age discrimination. (I guess you could demand that anyone pay abig tax)

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 5/25/2022 @ 6:28 am

    Gun laws barring sales to people under 21 are unconstitutional, appeals court rules
    …….
    In a divided decision, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit said the existing minimum age requirement for purchases from federally licensed gun dealers (currently 21) restricts the rights of law-abiding citizens and draws an arbitrary, unjustified line.

    The decision, which probably will be appealed to the full court, finds that 18-year-olds possess a Second Amendment right to gun ownership and notes that they were “required at the time of the Founding to serve in the militia and furnish their own weapons,” wrote Richardson, a nominee of President Donald Trump, who was joined by Judge G. Steven Agee, a nominee of President George W. Bush.
    ………
    The ruling drew a sharp dissent from Judge James A. Wynn Jr. Courts, he said, should defer to lawmakers, who demonstrated a sufficient interest in promoting public safety when they passed the age restrictions in 1968.
    ……..
    ……..(The) ruling does not mean that 18-to-20-year-olds can immediately buy handguns from federal dealers. The court’s order sends the case back to District Court in Charlottesville and gives the government an opportunity to ask the full 4th Circuit to rehear the case.
    ……..
    While federal law imposes an age limit of 21 for handgun purchases, the age limit for buying long guns is 18. Many states have passed more-restrictive age requirements for accessing firearms. For instance, in the aftermath of the 2018 mass shooting at a Parkland, Fla., high school, state lawmakers raised the minimum age to purchase rifles from 18 to 21.

    A federal judge upheld the state restriction in June after a challenge from the National Rifle Association. Other federal appeals courts also have upheld either the federal law prohibiting handgun sales to 18-to-20-year-olds or state measures restricting sales based on age.
    ##########

    I have no problem with this decision. If those aged 18-20 can vote, serve in the military, or enter into contracts, then they should be allowed to purchase firearms. I doubt the Supreme Court would extend this right to minors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  107. Whatever happened to single point of entry or point of entries with lockable foyers where a individual is stuck until released. Whatever happened to someone being armed. We continue to bait for lunatics looking for soft targets and lamenting the gun kills our soft targets.

    Richard Wetmore (ddc02c)

  108. The Supreme Court is likely to make it easier to allow concealed carry nationwide. New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen is a challenge to the permit requirements to carry a concealed weapon in New York state, but the SC could issue a broad ruling invalidating all permit requirements as a violation of the Second Amendment.

    The law requires anyone who wants a license to carry a concealed handgun to show “proper cause” for the license. Courts in New York have defined “proper cause” to require applicants to show a special need to defend themselves, rather than simply wanting to protect themselves or their property.

    Representing the challengers in the case, a gun-rights advocacy group and two men whose applications for unrestricted concealed-carry licenses were denied, lawyer Paul Clement told the justices that the text of the Second Amendment enshrines a right to bear arms, and the history and tradition of the United States confirm that the text protects an individual right to carry a gun for self-defense. Carrying a gun outside the home is a fundamental right that people in 43 other states enjoy, Clement observed. And the point of a constitutional right, he stressed, is that you don’t have to satisfy a government official that you have a good reason to exercise it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  109. Effects of Minimum Age Requirements on Mass Shootings
    ……..
    ……..Using a two-way fixed-effects linear probability model, Luca, Malhotra, and Poliquin (2016) estimated the effects of minimum age requirements on a binary indicator for whether a mass shooting occurred in a given state-year. The authors defined mass shootings as incidents in which four or more individuals were killed (excluding the shooter), the occurrence was not connected to criminal activity, and at least three fatally injured victims were not related to the shooter (e.g., family, romantic partner). The authors included two measures of minimum age requirements: (1) an indicator variable for whether laws prohibit vendors from selling handguns to those under age 18 or prohibit those under age 18 from purchasing handguns and (2) an analogous indicator variable for laws that set the minimum age at 21.

    The authors’ analysis covered 1989–2014 and included controls for state fixed effects, national trends, and a host of other state-level gun policies, as well as time-varying state-level demographic, socioeconomic, and political characteristics. They found uncertain effects of laws setting 18 as the minimum age of purchase on the probability of a mass shooting event occurring, but they found a suggestive effect consistent with laws setting 21 as the minimum age of purchase reducing the likelihood of a mass shooting occurrence in models that included controls for political factors……..
    ………
    ………On the basis of this study, we find inconclusive evidence for how minimum age requirements for purchasing a firearm affect mass shootings.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  110. (I guess you could demand that anyone pay a big tax)

    No, you could not, unless you want to say that churches have to pay a big tax to exist, or newspapers need to buy newsprint from the government store (as some authoritarian governments have played it).

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  111. And certain weapons, like high capacity magazines, just should not exist. Period. They are of no use to an ethical defender.

    If you mean 50 rounds, perhaps. If you mean 10 rounds, no. Modern, small caliber handguns easily contain 18 or so rounds in a double-stack clip. If I were limited to 10 rounds, I’d only buy .45s which are far more destructive.

    Then again, if your weapon is intended for fighting an illegal government (e.g. a Trump-style coup or an AOC-style suspension of the Constitution), then 50 rounds is probably the minimum you’d want.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  112. @96: Most murders are one-off. The neighbor, the spouse, the boss, romantic rivals, etc. For those, guns are handy, but not the only options. A baseball bat might be more satisfying if one is that enraged.

    For mass murder, sure, a semi-auto is ideal, but it’s also idea for self-defense as you may be under fire yourself and not in enough control of the situation to take careful aim.

    I think that, outside of being an ancillary to other crimes, most gun deaths are suicide. No limitation on functionality is going to help there.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  113. but the Supreme Court may declare that unconstitutional age discrimination.

    You mean the SCOTUS which can’t keep track of a set of papers? Just another bunch of bureaucrats to ignore.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  114. By the end of next week no one will be talking about this.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  115. @98:

    Sammy, what other constitutional rights do you want to impose taxes, deposits, bonds, training, licensing or or insurance requirements on?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  116. By the end of next week no one will be talking about this.

    Until the next time, of course. The real problem is not gun control, it’s crazy-people control.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  117. That was my opening number, but would be willing to also use the 600 number of those at the outmost boundary of periviability as a number we can all agree is way too high to lose to gunfire.

    Freedom’s have costs and those costs are nasty and brutish at times; always inescapable. We could eliminate all DUI related deaths if we simply banned all alcohol, illegal drugs and prescription medications that put a person under the influence. no?

    People are crazy

    These assholes here had relatively humane weapons by contrast but opted for burning people alive/machete hacking
    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/02/25/students_burned_alive_in_slaughter_at_nigerian_school.html
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/29-boarding-school-students-burned-alive-shot-dead-islamist-militants-flna6c10555828

    Religious morons complicit in death
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire

    Students lucky to have not killed anyone
    https://africa.cgtn.com/2016/07/21/kenyan-students-burning-schools-demanding-longer-holidays/

    steveg (7c3b79)

  118. .Using a two-way fixed-effects linear probability model, Luca, Malhotra, and Poliquin (2016

    Pfft. Using a calendar, this government managed to move legislation through its system that shoveled $40 billion out the door to non-taxpaying, non-U.S. citizens in Ukraine in three weeks.

    It’s been 10 years since Sandy Hook. ‘The hallmark piece of federal legislation to be inspired by Sandy Hook was the proposed Assault Weapons Ban of 2013. Introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein a month after the shootings, the bill banned the sale of more than 150 specific firearm models as well as magazines that held more than 10 rounds of ammunition. Although there was widespread public support for more restrictive gun laws, the bill was defeated 60–40 in the Senate. Another bill, the so-called Manchin-Toomey proposal (named for Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Republican Sen. Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania), would have mandated criminal background checks for firearm sales over the Internet or at gun shows. The bipartisan legislation was backed by a clear majority in the Senate, but the 54 “yeas” fell short of an agreed 60-vote threshold and the proposal was rejected. A measure to restrict the sale of “large capacity ammunition feeding devices” (magazines that held more than 10 rounds of ammunition) was rejected 54–46. Although these initiatives failed at the federal level, similar bills were signed into law in the states of New York, Connecticut, Colorado, and Maryland.’ – britannica.com

    Watering the tree of American Popul;ism. This is why folks ‘storm the castle.’

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  119. I have no problem with this decision. If those aged 18-20 can vote, serve in the military, or enter into contracts, then they should be allowed to purchase firearms. I doubt the Supreme Court would extend this right to minors.

    Um, courts HAVE extended the consent right in abortions to minors.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  120. We could eliminate all DUI related deaths if we simply banned all alcohol

    We could cut it way back if we stamped the DL of every DUI offender with MAY NOT BUY ALCOHOL and carded everyone.

    You’d also see alcoholics being VERY careful to not drive drunk.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  121. Texas governor gets heckled at spin-shoveling presser in Uvalde; state officials reveal ugly side of selves in response.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  122. They card most everyone now, actually. When the state DMV was closed during Covid and people could not get their license renewed, some stores were denying alcohol sales to elderly folks with expired licenses.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  123. I wonder if the grandmother, seeing the guns, tried to take them away.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  124. ‘The gunman in the deadliest school shooting in Texas history bought two AR-style rifles legally just after his 18th birthday — days before his assault on Robb Elementary School in Uvalde. He legally purchased two AR platform rifles from a federally licensed gun store on two days: May 17 — just a day after his birthday — and May 20, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said, according to a briefing that state Sen. John Whitmire, chair of the Senate Criminal Justice Committee, received from state authorities late Tuesday. The gunman bought 375 rounds of 5.56-caliber ammunition on May 18.

    In Texas, you must be at least 18 years old to buy a rifle, and the state does not require a license to openly carry one in public.’ – https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/25/uvalde-shooter-bought-gun-legally/

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  125. They card most everyone now, actually.

    Believe that.

    Was in Walmart the other day and a guy in front of me at the checkout who was easily 60 years old was buying a bottle of wine and the checker asked for his ID- and recorded his DL number into the register as the purchase was processed.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  126. @114. By the end of next week no one will be talking about this.

    Don’t go snide, Rip: we know 19 kids and 2 adults who certainly won’t.

    =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  127. The gun and USA are intertwined, but mental health and acting out on schools in mass killing incidents is not uinque at all to the USA
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-43921567

    This guy was 28 and was still pissed off about being bullied at the school 15 years ago.

    Schools and parents world wide need to be very aware of bullied misfits.

    I used to shoot 200 rounds a month through my AR and if /when the Feds show up in my workshop, they will find 1000’s.

    I have a feeling KevinM is right about the Grandmother and if so, she died a hero even though her sacrifice did not stop the attack. May she rest in eternal peace

    steveg (7c3b79)

  128. The real problem is not gun control, it’s crazy-people control.

    You can’t control living, breathing crazy-people. [January 6 and Vladimir Putin demonstrate that.]

    You can control access to inanimate objects… like liquor, Sudafed, the White House… and guns.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  129. @127. steve- Sthe shooter, was 18, not 28; and the grandmother is in critical condition, still alive.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  130. The link I gave was to a a Chinese guy who stabbed a bunch of kids at the school where he had been bullied 13 years prior
    Sorry if I was unclear

    steveg (7c3b79)

  131. I’m fascinated by the way people blame the folks who have been tasked with mental health/danger to society checks.
    The Buffalo shooter is a case in point.
    Sure, there was abundant online evidence found once about 100,000 people put in 100,000’s of hours into crowd sourcing the search when the authorities probably had less than 4 hours to put into it

    steveg (7c3b79)

  132. Well, now we know who the heckler was:

    “Texas Democratic gubernatorial candidate Beto O’Rourke confronted Gov. Greg Abbott (R-Texas) at a press conference in Uvalde on Wednesday following the elementary school shooting that left 21 people, including 19 children, dead. Abbott had been providing information on mental health in the wake of the shooting when O’Rourke rushed up to the podium. “You are doing nothing,” O’Rourke said, only feet away from Abbott. “You said this was not predictable, this was totally predictable, and you choose not to do anything.” Uvalde Mayor Don McLaughlin could be heard yelling, “sir you are out of line. Please leave this auditorium.” “You’re out of line,” McLaughlin shouted. “I can’t believe you’re a sick son of a bitch who would come to a deal like this to make a political issue.”

    O’Rourke was then escorted out of the auditorium. He later addressed the press outside.” – TheHill.com

    Stay classy, America.

    DCSCA (1a7366)

  133. > We could eliminate all DUI related deaths if we simply banned all alcohol, illegal drugs and prescription medications that put a person under the influence. no?

    Banning alcohol did not eliminate alcohol consumption and created a huge underground market and massive criminal organizations.

    Banning drugs has worked about as well.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  134. Somebody should have unholstered and challenged Robert Francis to round of fisticuffs.

    urbanleftbehind (8102d1)

  135. Actually, having an alcohol inhibitor as standard to the ignition system for vehicles would likely reduce DD incidents, but they’re an added cost manufacturers balk at- like seat belts were back in the day- a hassle for most sober folks who just want to jump in and turn the key, too– and there would be work arounds and illegal disconnect efforts. Metal dollar coins are more cost effective than paper dollars, too. THhe public rejects them. Jet fuel can be made safer, too:

    A new study describes polymers that could potentially increase the safety of aviation fuel, both during transportation and in the event of a collision.

    https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/fuel-additive-could-lead-to-safer-jet-fuel

    DCSCA (46bd60)

  136. @51 I don’t have any faith in those statements. They’re no better than any other post event prediction. I suspect they are more the result of coping with some cognitive dissonance by people close to the event than anything else. And I think we all enable it. Because the obvious question to those statements is “then why didn’t you prevent it”.

    frosty (648974)

  137. People don’t seem to realize that there was a big change in the summer of 2020 when law-abiding citizens were told during the BLM riots/looting/arson that the police could not respond due to overload (and in some cases simply deciding to sit back and watch so they wouldn’t further anger the rioters) while lives and property were in danger and even lost.

    Nobody is going to convince law-abiding gun owners to give up their ability to protect themselves, their families, friends and property if law enforcement is incapable or unwilling to uphold their oath to protect the public from criminals.

    Making things even worse is that the rioters were celebrated by a lot of politicians while citizens who protest anything from vaccine mandates to election results to grade school sex/gender grooming are called ‘terrorists’ and ‘insurrectionists’ (strange how the only shooting death on Jan 6 was the cop shooting an unarmed woman. I remember some saying ‘good’ when the cop was allowed to walk.

    Another thing missing is a discussion on what’s changed to make school shootings happen more in the last 20 years than before. America has always had a lot of guns. When you find the answer to that question, you might actually be closer to a solution.

    Or just ignore it all except to blame Ted Cruz and the NRA.

    Obudman (f172db)

  138. I’ve seen a number of comments comparing guns to alcohol. This is a fundamentally flawed argument. The issue isn’t as simple as we can control access to alcohol so why can’t we control access to guns.

    Guns are a proxy for self defense and that is a fundamental issue. When a law abiding person says they want a gun they are often saying they want to be able to defend themselves. When someone calls for gun control it’s a proxy for limiting the options people have to defend themselves.

    And it’s ridiculous on multiple levels for someone to get into the whole “I don’t think you need more than (checks current talking points) 5 bullets to defend yourself” arguments.

    There is no version of this for alcohol. The two simply aren’t equivalent.

    frosty (648974)

  139. @138. Guns are a proxy for self defense and that is a fundamental issue.

    Pfft. So is alcohol:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlcuKw2aG1U

    “Whiskey?!” – Indiana Jones [Harrison Ford] ‘Raiders of the Lost Ark’ 1981

    DCSCA (aa73eb)

  140. Officials in Texas described in chilling detail on Wednesday how an 18-year-old gunman shot his grandmother in the face and left her wounded at her home, drove a pickup truck that crashed at a high speed by a nearby elementary school, and exchanged shots with police officers on the scene who were unable to stop him before he killed 19 children and two teachers in a massacre in a single classroom.

    The gunman was inside the school for roughly one hour before a tactical unit from the border patrol shot him several times, killing him.

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/25/us/shooting-robb-elementary-uvalde/the-deadliest-us-school-shooting-in-a-decade-shakes-a-rural-texas-city?smid=url-share

    What were the cops doing for an hour outside the school after the gunman went in?

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  141. @104 A fetus in the first trimester is not a 7 year old child. 10 things that did not kill 19 children in texas yesterday 1 disney 2 banned books 3 pronouns 4 dr. seuss 5 gay m&ms 6 mentioning the word gay in your commencement speech 7masks 8 jessica cisneros 9 crt 10 beto o’rourke One thing that did GUNS! 4500 children died by guns in 2020 the leading cause of deaths for children.

    asset (7f4d67)

  142. Davethulhu (ee3282) — 5/25/2022 @ 1:47 pm

    What were the cops doing for an hour outside the school after the gunman went in?

    The same thing as the cops in Columbine?

    Maybe they had gotten all the children in that room out the window and the gunman was barricaded in there alone.

    Did it all take place in one 4th grade classroom?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  143. He contacted on Instagram a girl whom he never was in contact with before – said he had a surprise. Didn’t say what.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  144. After school shooting, California Senate passes Lone Star State-style bounty law targeting ghost guns, assault weapons
    ……..
    California senators passed a bill Tuesday on a 24-10 vote which would allow private citizens to file suit for at least $10,000 against makers or sellers of untraceable ghost guns and illegal assault weapons.
    ……..
    “If states can now shield their laws from review by the federal courts that compare assault weapons to Swiss Army knives, then California will use that authority to protect people’s lives, where Texas used it to put women in harm’s way,” Newsom said last year.
    …….
    The bill defines illegal assault weapons as including AR-15 semiautomatic assault rifles — the type of firearm used in virtually every mass shooting in the United States.

    Ghost guns, which are sold in parts without serial numbers or background checks to be assembled by the user, are also targeted by the bounty law.

    The unserialized weapons have been increasingly used in lethal shootings in California and have been identified by city and district attorneys and law enforcement leaders up and down the Golden State as a top concern.

    This month, San Diego netted its first conviction under the city’s ordinance barring anyone from having a ghost gun.
    ………
    Assembly Bill 1594, introduced by Ting, Gipson and Assemblyman Chris Ward of San Diego, would exploit a loophole under federal law so California residents who have suffered harm by guns could bring a civil action against gun makers and sellers when state law is broken.

    AB 1594 passed the Assembly Appropriations committee in a 12-4 vote on May 19 and was ordered to a third reading in the Assembly on Monday.
    ##########

    Never let a crisis go to waste.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  145. @126-

    Don’t go snide, Rip: we know 19 kids and 2 adults who certainly won’t.

    It’s not being snide, it’s stating the truth. Americans are getting numb to tragedy, and leaving the victims behind. A week from now you won’t see any breathless news reports from Ulavde, just like the Buffalo shooting has been relegated to the back page. There will be a fresher tragedy to occupy America’s mind.

    You asking America to stay “classy” is rich since you have not.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  146. Sixty-nine years ago today.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  147. What about the genuine hispanic guy who told Beto “that’s propaganda bro” or the other real hispanic who told Beto he struck out twice already and on behalf of ranchers, farmers, oil workers to get out.
    Beto is clearly going for the suburban wine mom vote

    steveg (33797f)

  148. =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (1a7366) — 5/25/2022 @ 11:15 am

    Some friendly advice: enough with the “=mike-drops=.” (And by the way, it’s “mic drop,” not “mike drop.”) I’d like to keep this polite, so all I’ll say about the comments to which you attach that rhetorical flourish is that they’re never the triumphal argument-enders you seem to think they are. Calling attention to them as such is an embarrassing self-own. Seriously. It’s cringe. I know this is a small detail in the scheme of things, but do yourself a favor and cut it out.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  149. @145. It’s not being snide, it’s stating the truth. Americans are getting numb to tragedy.

    Except they’re not. Victims rights groups to the contrary; just got off the phone w/one. Merely frustrated at the complete lack of action by elected officials to respond responsibly– particularly those nested in the GOP.

    =mike-drop=

    @148. ^

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  150. @148. Politely dropping the MIC- the Military Industrial Complex- would be a joy, lurker.

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  151. Somebody should have unholstered and challenged Robert Francis to round of fisticuffs.

    It was his Howard Dean moment.

    He’s the Texas Denny’s Breakfast Special: toast w/a side order of toast.

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  152. @141. Yerah but the ‘American s care more about their guns than their kids’ argument is an extreme that won’t fly- especially when it comes from a Michael Moore-type. If Reagan had crowed it, it might resonate more w/t NRA Dead Heston righties. Instead, ‘… from my cold, dead hands’ lives on.

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  153. They’re likely going to find this shooter researched Sandy Hook at some point; too many parallels to be coincidental. But Texas has some cracks in their weapons access legislation- but Texas isn’t NY or Connecticut. Don’t expect Abbott and his team to address them.

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  154. What kind of gun would jesus own? AR-15?

    asset (f94214)

  155. Has alex jones called it a hoax with paid child actors yet?

    asset (f94214)

  156. OT- Congrats to Boeing/NASA and the Starliner team for a nominal land landing- always risky- in NM– the flourish of red, white and blue chutes, Yankee Doodle Dandy.

    ‘CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — Boeing’s crew taxi returned to Earth from the International Space Station on Wednesday, completing a repeat test flight before NASA astronauts climb aboard. It was a quick trip back: The Starliner capsule parachuted into the New Mexico desert just four hours after leaving the orbiting lab, with airbags attached to cushion the landing. Only a mannequin was on board.

    Aside from thruster failures and cooling system snags, Starliner appeared to clinch its high-stakes shakedown cruise, 2 1/2 years after its botched first try.’ -AP.com

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  157. @155. Have discussed w/a VRG to push for publication of the images of the carnage from these tragedies as the vivid impact and damage of these tragedies is muted and sanitized by the media w/o them- but it is a crime scene as well and once adjudicated, it is up to the families and they usually and respectfully don’t wish to publicize them- understandable for obvious reasons.

    DCSCA (4ef63e)

  158. asset
    thanks for the response
    In your response: “4500 children died by guns in 2020 the leading cause of deaths for children.”

    Lets go inside the numbers for takeaways so you don’t have to read the rest of the post or all the work at the links
    2811 were homicides. On suicide, it is impossible to do more than guess what would happen if guns were not available but the general consensus is that there would be fewer
    During the pandemic, homicide numbers were up across the board in all age groups.
    During the pandemic, drug overdoses and poisonings were up 84%
    The gun death rate in the early 1990s was higher than it is today

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761
    From 2019 to 2020, the relative increase in the rate of firearm-related deaths of all types (suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined) among children and adolescents was 29.5% — more than twice as high as the relative increase in the general population. The increase was seen across most demographic characteristics and types of firearm-related death

    In addition, drug overdose and poisoning increased by 83.6% from 2019 to 2020 among children and adolescents, becoming the third leading cause of death in that age group. This change is largely explained by the 110.6% increase in unintentional poisonings from 2019 to 2020. The rates for other leading causes of death have remained relatively stable since the previous analysis, which suggests that changes in mortality trends among children and adolescents during the early Covid-19 pandemic were specific to firearm-related injuries and drug poisoning; Covid-19 itself resulted in 0.2 deaths per 100,000 children and adolescents in 2020.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/04/22/1094364930/firearms-leading-cause-of-death-in-children
    Researchers analyzed data collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showing that there were a record 45,222 firearm-related deaths in the U.S. in 2020.

    Patrick Carter, one of the authors of the research letter and co-director of the University of Michigan’s Institute for Firearm Injury Prevention, said about 10% of those deaths — 4,357 in total — were children…. For children, 65% of firearm deaths are homicides and 35% are categorized as suicide

    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/28/1076396871/gun-violence-rise-killing-children-pandemic

    Children have also been out in public more, often around the older teenagers and young men who have driven much of the recent increase in shootings. Police say the rise in chaotic gunplay between rivals, or drive-by shootings, is especially risky for nearby children.
    Some experts caution that, as disturbing as it is to see the rise in shootings of children, it’s important to keep in mind that the numbers are also going up for other age groups.

    https://www.childrensdefense.org/state-of-americas-children/soac-2021-gun-violence/
    Although Black children and teens made up only 14 percent of all children and teens in 2019, they accounted for 43 percent of child and teen gun deaths (In 2020 that number rose to 52%)
    Eighty-six percent of children and teens who died from gunfire were boys.
    Eighty-five percent of child and teen gun deaths occurred among 15- to 19-year-olds

    https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/2020-gun-deaths-in-the-us-4-28-2022-b.pdf
    2020
    • The overall gun death rate among children and teens under age 19 increased by 30%—this
    increase was driven by a dramatic (40%) increase in the gun homicide rate and 11% increase in
    the gun suicide rate.
    • There was a 47% increase in the firearm homicide rate among Black women from 2019 to 2020.
    • The rate of gun suicides was the second highest in three decades, and 2020 was only the second
    time ever there were over 24,000 gun suicides.

    2020 had the highest number of gun deaths ever, but not the highest rate because the
    U.S. population in 2020 was larger than in prior years. While there were fewer gun deaths in the
    early 1990s, the gun death rate in the early 1990s was higher than it is today because the number of
    gun deaths compared to the population was higher.

    2020 had the highest number of gun deaths ever, but not the highest rate because the
    U.S. population in 2020 was larger than in prior years. While there were fewer gun deaths in the
    early 1990s, the gun death rate in the early 1990s was higher than it is today because the number of
    gun deaths compared to the population was higher.

    steveg (33797f)

  159. What kind of gun would jesus own? AR-15?

    asset (f94214) — 5/25/2022 @ 4:27 pm

    “You should give up all your guns because jesus said to be compassionate in the bible somewhere.
    No, I’m not a christian and have nothing but contempt for your backwards religious beliefs.
    So yeah, this argument wouldn’t work on me, but maybe if I use it on you, you’ll do what I want.”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  160. @145. It’s not being snide, it’s stating the truth. Americans are getting numb to tragedy.

    Except they’re not. Victims rights groups to the contrary…..

    You can always find a subset of the population who cares, but overall, Americans don’t. Victim rights groups have done squat; there is not evidence of any success. Americans overall have accepted these tragedies as a fact of life, otherwise there would be mass demonstrations demanding action. If Americans don’t get upset over a million dying from COVID, then they won’t be upset about anything. If Americans resist getting vaccinated, they will certainly resist the government (or relatives) getting protective orders to be involuntary committed, or deny them access to guns. Robb Elementary is the 27th school shooting this year, with by far the highest casualty count.

    ……..There have been 119 school shootings since 2018, when Education Week began tracking such incidents. The highest number of shootings, 34, occurred last year. There were 10 shootings in 2020, and 24 each in 2019 and 2018.

    There have been 213 mass shootings overall this year, an average of ten per week. In 2021 there were 693 mass shootings. In 2020 there were 611. In 2019 there were 417. Source

    Americans have become numb to this violence; it is the only way to cope.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  161. asset: “What kind of gun would jesus own? AR-15?”

    Well, if it’s God of the Old Testament, I’m thinking M134 minigun (rotary machine gun)….like the one from Predator…or maybe the Browning M2 from Rambo. Both would be formible against the wicked, the Egyptian first born, cleaning out the Amalekites, or to teach Job’s family a lesson about faith….and firepower.

    Now Jesus would be more like Neo in the Matrix blocking the bullets with a force field. Though, Turn the other cheek probably doesn’t work well with Neo’s Kung Fu…or basically every other aspect of that movie character.

    Given Gunpowder wasn’t invented until the 9th century, it makes all this just wild speculation. I hope this helped.

    AJ_Liberty (a36eed)

  162. You know, I really hate commenting given some of the responses here. But there are some great folks, too, so this is for them.

    In the 1980s, I was in a molecular biology workshop at Woods Hole for the summer. There was a Swiss fellow helping to teach, who was a really nice older guy.

    But how he hated all things American. Even though the US was funding his visit, and he married an American.

    He was very charismatic. So I would sit and listen to him pontificate daily at the table where we all had lunch. But it really bothered me that he would put every American thing under a microscope, and don Mr. Magoo glasses about non-American sources. Pretty typical, I know. But it still bothered me.

    I learned in graduate school that I in fact did not have a right to my own opinion. So I kept quiet. But finally, I had enough.

    Kurt was carrying on about how Americans had a fixation on weapons. Everyone was nodding.

    I couldn’t help it. “Kurt,” I asked, “isn’t it true that you have a fully automatic weapon in your home, and a large quantity of ammunition?”

    Everyone looked at me.

    “Well, that’s the situation with all Swiss citizens. They are members of the militia, protecting their nation.”

    Kurt stammered that he was trained.

    “Oh, I am sure you were. But here in America, citizen—even veterans—are not permitted to own fully automatic weapons. And folks in the Service certainly can’t keep their fully automatic weapons at home.”

    This was before the internet, but I urged folks to check out my accuracy.

    Grumble, grumble, saith Kurt.

    “Oh, Kurt?” I asked. He looked at me.

    “Your wife is American, right?” He nodded.

    “Has she become a Swiss citizen?” He nodded again, looking sour. He knew where I was going.

    “So…she gave up the right to vote here, and only recently was able to vote, as a woman, in Switzerland, right?”

    Everyone looked at me.

    “Yeah, Switzerland didn’t let women vote until 1971. Some cantons—kind of like states—held out for much longer.”

    Quiet at the table.

    “Friends, I didn’t mean to be a jerk. But when I visit other countries, I really don’t care to criticize my hosts. Just saying.” I got up and left.

    Any wonder I have trouble fitting into academia?

    But my late father taught me about honor.

    Simon Jester (61f707)

  163. I’ve seen a number of comments comparing guns to alcohol. This is a fundamentally flawed argument. The issue isn’t as simple as we can control access to alcohol so why can’t we control access to guns.

    Guns are a proxy for self defense and that is a fundamental issue. When a law abiding person says they want a gun they are often saying they want to be able to defend themselves. When someone calls for gun control it’s a proxy for limiting the options people have to defend themselves.

    And it’s ridiculous on multiple levels for someone to get into the whole “I don’t think you need more than (checks current talking points) 5 bullets to defend yourself” arguments.

    There is no version of this for alcohol. The two simply aren’t equivalent.

    frosty (648974) — 5/25/2022 @ 1:14 pm

    That’s the point though–we DO control access to guns. There are multiple laws at the federal and state levels controlling who can purchase and possess guns, just as there are for alcohol. The latter in particular costs over twice as many lives every year as firearms, even when you count suicides.

    I’ve told leftists I’m willing to go along with whatever shibboleth gun control law they happen to be pushing at the given moment, if they’re willing to have everyone buying booze undergo a background check to deny DWI and violent offenders from purchasing it–just like guns. Somehow, I’ve never gotten any takers, even though it’s a perfectly reasonable compromise.

    The “we require a license and insurance to use cars, why can’t we do that for guns” is another favorite of mine. I would LOVE for firearms to be treated EXACTLY like cars. Doing so would nuke most existing gun control laws instantly.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  164. AJ_Liberty (a36eed) — 5/25/2022 @ 5:44 pm

    Good comment.

    I think Jesus would make another whip; And get all Indiana Jones on the wicked!

    felipe at another terminal (084d77)

  165. Active shooter incidents rose over 50% in 2021 compared to 2020

    The number of active shooter incidents in the U.S. rose by 52.5% from 2020 to 2021, and over four years, from 2017 to 2021, there was a 96.8% increase, the FBI said in a report published Monday. The bureau noted that the data over those four years shows “an upward trend.”

    In 2021, the FBI designated a total of 61 shootings in 30 states as “active shooter incidents,” resulting in 103 people killed and 140 wounded, excluding the gunmen.

    Last year saw the highest number of deaths as a result of active shootings – 103 total – since 2017, a whopping 171% increase from 2020.

    The FBI defines an active shooter as “one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.” The definition implies the use of a firearm, and the “active” descriptor refers to the “ongoing nature of an incident, and thus the potential for the response to affect the outcome.” In comparison, a mass killing is defined as “three or more killings in a single incident.”

    Twelve of the 61 active shooter incidents also met the criteria for mass killings.
    ……..

    America is comfortably numb.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  166. @RIP@160 Some of us don’t get to be numb. Some of us walk into schools every day knowing that we’d be dead if it happened at our school because we’d take those bullets in exchange for even one of our student’s lives. Some of us look into our colleagues’ in acknowledgement that they’d be dead too. But we can’t ruminate on it because if we did we couldn’t do our jobs.

    Nic (896fdf)

  167. ‘@160. You can always find a subset of the population who cares, but overall, Americans don’t…’

    Except they do.

    ‘Americans overall have accepted these tragedies as a fact of life…’

    Except they don’t.

    “Americans have become numb to this violence; it is the only way to cope…”

    Except it’s not. Or perhaps it is for you…

    According to a Morning Consult/Politico survey taken last year, 84% of American voters support universal background checks for gun purchases.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/25/why-cant-america-stop-mass-shootings-gun-control

    ‘Ninety-two percent of Democrats favor criminal background checks on all gun buyers; so do 89 percent of Republicans. Eighty-eight percent of Democrats and 75 percent of Republicans support red flag laws (Fox). Ninety-two percent of Democrats would require individuals to obtain a license before purchasing a gun; 65 percent of Republicans agree’- Quinnipiac.com.

    This certainly doesn’t indicate indifference, “numbness” or acceptance of the problem and signals frustration at inaction. A government that shovels $40 billion out the door to defend/protect non-paying, non-U.S. citizens in three weeks but a decade after Sandy Hook has failed to address defending/protecting its own school children has mess up priorities. Which is why the tree of populism keeps rooting deeper and deeper and folks’ storm th castle’. Hardly a numb citizenry.

    So pitching the number of mass shooting corresponds to acceptance with numb indifference to the carnage is flawed– or wishful thinking. Try pitching that woo in Aurora, CO., Newtown, CT., Las Vegas, NV., Parkland FL., Buffalo, NY., on the campus of Virgina Tech… or at the funerals in Uvalde, TX. See how it sells.

    =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (21bed9)

  168. ….we can control access to alcohol so why can’t we control access to guns……

    Alcohol and guns are actually very similar. Someone who wants alcohol will either make their own, have someone else buy it for them, or get it from their parents. It is an illusion that we control alcohol, just like it is an illusion we can control guns.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  169. According to a Morning Consult/Politico survey taken last year, 84% of American voters support universal background checks for gun purchases.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/25/why-cant-america-stop-mass-shootings-gun-control

    ‘Ninety-two percent of Democrats favor criminal background checks on all gun buyers; so do 89 percent of Republicans. Eighty-eight percent of Democrats and 75 percent of Republicans support red flag laws (Fox). Ninety-two percent of Democrats would require individuals to obtain a license before purchasing a gun; 65 percent of Republicans agree’- Quinnipiac.com.

    Too bad even with that overwhelming support you can’t get Congress off the dime. Obviously it doesn’t translate into action. Do you think the “folks storming the castle” are among those that support gun control? LOL! They are the ones who wish to see no gun control whatsoever.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  170. @160-. Some of us don’t get to be numb. Some of us walk into schools every day knowing that we’d be dead if it happened at our school because we’d take those bullets in exchange for even one of our student’s lives. Some of us look into our colleagues’ in acknowledgement that they’d be dead too. But we can’t ruminate on it because if we did we couldn’t do our jobs.

    Yes, Nic- and that’s all the more tragic as it’s just that much more stress dumped on top of a stress-filled job where you’re responsible for a large group of kids. There was a time- certainly in my youth, where schools and classrooms were open, with easy access and the only individual on corridor patrol was the Hall Monitor. No cops. We could even wear our Scout uniforms to school and proudly display an official scout pocket knife on the belt. Try that today… and get detained PDQ. We don’t need teachers armed for action nor “Fortress Woodrow Wilson Elementary Schools” we deserve dedicated educators with moderate sized classes and student bodies hungry to learn, not dead bodies strewn on classroom floors.

    DCSCA (21bed9)

  171. @168. Too bad even with that overwhelming support you can’t get Congress off the dime. Obviously it doesn’t translate into action…

    Too bad?? It doesn’t signify the “numbness” you suggested to the carnage. Merely frustration; and ending the filibuster could crack the wall. Clearly you really don’t get the what keeps American Populism at the boil, either. It’s certainly not “numbness.”

    DCSCA (21bed9)

  172. What were the cops doing for an hour outside the school after the gunman went in?

    Waiting for SWAT. SOme agencies have adopted the LAPD rule of first-two-guys-go-in. Some are still working on the Columbine rules of waiting until they run out of bullets.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  173. What kind of gun would jesus own? AR-15?

    Hard to say. As it was He let them nail Him to a cross. But the Jews at Masada certainly would have liked AR-15s.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  174. =mike-drop=

    I tried.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  175. =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (1a7366) — 5/25/2022 @ 11:15 am

    Who is this “Mike” and why does DCSPCA keep dropping him?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  176. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

    EPWJ’s comment at 19

    May the Lord comfort the families and friends. Words fail

    EPWJ (ded958) — 5/24/2022 @ 4:04 pm

    remains the most decent one from the commenters on this thread.

    nk (09b0ae)

  177. @164: How many incidents were there where an active shooter was stopped before he got to the magic number or “3”? How many of those shooters were stopped by the use, or threatened use of firearms? Bet you that statistic is nowhere in sight.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  178. @172. ‘What kind of gun would Jesus own? AR-15?’ ‘Hard to say. As it was He let them nail Him to a cross’

    Then he’d have a Cross to bear: a SIG Cross Bolt Action Rifle, of course.

    Or, perhaps, the crossbow– as the Lord works in mysterious ways. 😉

    DCSCA (210359)

  179. #162 Simon Jester – Thanks for that interesting story.

    (Sometimes, when comments have accumulated, I will go down to the bottom of a post and read up, so that I can skip over the comments that are more noise than signal.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  180. @RIP@160 Some of us don’t get to be numb. Some of us walk into schools every day knowing that we’d be dead if it happened at our school because we’d take those bullets in exchange for even one of our student’s lives.

    I’m sure of it. In the Virginia Tech case, a lecturer blocked the shooter from his classroom while getting the door latched. It cost him his life.

    But given that we are not going to get guns out of public hands, I’m not sure what best to do. We have fire-alarm gizmos in school hallways, perhaps there’s a way to lock classroom doors in an emergency.

    Then again, it would be a big expense for a rare event…

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  181. Outside-the-box: Is the amendment that’s the problem the 2nd? Why not the 8th?

    I can think of some rather horrific punishments for someone who would do this to grammar school kids.

    Half-hanged, drawn and quartered.
    Burned at the stake.
    Boiled in oil.
    Feet first into a wood-chipper.
    Rolled down a hill inside a white-hot barrel.
    Fed to a bear.

    But that damn 8th Amendment….

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  182. Question: What burden does the gun-store owner bear here? Unlike nearly everyone else involved, he sold this guy two AR-15s and ammo, without a worry in the world. I imagine his life right now is a bit stressed, but suppose that gun stores were liable, even just a little bit, for who they sell to.

    Never mind the background checks or other State-ordered barriers, why not give the gun store owner an incentive to not sell to crazy mass killers. Maybe he’s liable for $50,000 for each death caused by the person he sold the gun to.

    I bet you there would be some heartfelt questions asked before the sale.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  183. Bars are liable for drivers who kill after getting drunk there.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  184. @167. Alcohol and guns are actually very similar… It is an illusion that we control alcohol, just like it is an illusion we can control guns.

    You’ve never been carded, cut off by a bartender, or visited by the illusions of pink elephants. Maybe merely locked and loaded.– or simply loaded. Guns & booze:

    “One’s too many an’ a hundred’s not enough.” – Bartender Nat [Howard Da Silva] ‘The Lost Weekend’ 1945

    DCSCA (210359)

  185. America is comfortably numb.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 5/25/2022 @ 5:52 pm

    Sure, but it’s not unusual. Does anyone here not remember the late 60s through the early 80s, when domestic terrorists were kidnapping and killing people, bombing and burning government buildings including Congress (with assistance from the National Lawyers Guild, which all of you may recall were quite prominent at the Floyd riots with their lime green hats and vests), on such a consistent basis that the incidents would get pushed to the back of the newspaper?

    Puerto Rican separatists bombed New York City around 300 times. SDS caused 41 bombings and arsons on college campuses in 1968. After a while, it all became old news, to the point that radical leftists bombed the Senate and military bases in 1983 and 84, and the Philadelphia police dropped actual ordnance on a black liberationist group in 1985 and hardly anyone blinked.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  186. @182. Bars are liable for drivers who kill after getting drunk there.

    That’s a relatively recent development, though, seeded in the 80’s if memory serves, and taken root since.

    DCSCA (210359)

  187. @181. If it was a legal sale and everything conformed to the Fed., rules/regs and Texas law, it’s a legal sale. The seller may carry some private, personal guilt but shouldn’t burden themselves with that. Not their fault. The Wrights reportedly carried some guilt for how the airplane was used as a weapon- but shouldn’t have either.

    DCSCA (210359)

  188. @Kevin@179 At my school classroom doors are kept locked. Some teachers prop the doors open, but they are still in the lock position so that all they have to do is pull the door closed. We also have lock-down alarms, any staff member can declare a lock down if they see danger, and we each have specific roles to fill should a lock down go into effect.

    Nic (896fdf)

  189. So far, I haven’t seen any mention of the gunman having a father, a grandfather, an uncle, or even an older brother in his life.
    Jim Miller (406a93) — 5/25/2022 @ 8:24 am

    you’re expecting people to acknowledge the importance of male role models, and that’s just a bridge too far

    it’s about guns

    stay focused

    JF (770e9c)

  190. there’s a lot more bullying in japan, for example, and you can get a gun there if you really want one

    but bullied outcasts there mostly turn their destructive tendencies inward rather than outward

    i think because there’s a very strong family influence, societal norms and a sense of honor

    no one, not even the crazy, will bring dishonor to their family

    It’s not just japan, but most other countries as well

    family structure, societal norms, and honor

    the three things being eradicated in our culture, not by accident but by design

    it’s fully intentional

    JF (770e9c)

  191. Its a bit different for a bartender to have a guy sit there for 3 hours pounding drinks or a guy stumbling in fumbling with his debit card and ordering doubles walking into broom closet thinking its the bathroom (not that I’ve done that OK? It was the stock room) vs a guy who comes into a gun shop, passes background check, shows up sober after the waiting period and isn’t screaming into his whiskey about killing school children.

    steveg (e794ae)

  192. “you’re expecting people to acknowledge the importance of male role models, and that’s just a bridge too far”

    Did the Buffalo grocery store shooter lack a male role model?

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  193. Banning alcohol did not eliminate alcohol consumption and created a huge underground market and massive criminal organizations.

    Banning drugs has worked about as well.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 5/25/2022 @ 12:09 pm

    And, just to complete the trifecta, banning guns would be just as effective.

    norcal (3f02c4)

  194. @188. At my school classroom doors are kept locked. Some teachers prop the doors open, but they are still in the lock position so that all they have to do is pull the door closed. We also have lock-down alarms, any staff member can declare a lock down if they see danger, and we each have specific roles to fill should a lock down go into effect.

    Nic, that’s such a sad reality. How do the kids react to it? Normal? Are they aware that’s not how it was not all that long ago?

    DCSCA (ee9a0e)

  195. And, just to complete the trifecta, banning guns would be just as effective.

    Deterrence. Managing hijacking is the model to follow.

    DCSCA (ee9a0e)

  196. @DCSCA@194 It is sad. We also have an 8ft (maybe taller, I’m not a tall person so sometimes height is hard to judge 😛 ) high fence around the campus that was only put in 5 years ago. The kids don’t really understand that it didn’t used to be like that. They are young enough that they think it’s just the way things are.

    Nic (896fdf)

  197. Did the Buffalo grocery store shooter lack a male role model?
    Davethulhu (ee3282) — 5/25/2022 @ 8:19 pm

    probability uses a lot of math

    and math is hard

    JF (770e9c)

  198. @196 my kids have gone through regular lockdown drills at school

    and they know exactly what it’s for

    JF (770e9c)

  199. The “everyone is numb” argument isn’t much better than ignoring why people own guns. Just because someone doesn’t come to the same conclusion as you or isn’t as emotionally engaged doesn’t mean they are numb. It’s only slightly better than the old “why do you hate kids” and “for the children” arguments.

    But if we’re going with numb; we kill >600000 kids every year voluntarily. For no better reason, in most cases, than that they’re inconvenient for the mothers. And we’ve been doing that for decades.

    We’ve been essentially ignoring the fyntenal and opioid crisis. The number of people dying from that is also much larger than these school shootings.

    If people are numb is it any wonder?

    Personally I don’t think the issue is numb. I think it’s more a case of people having a relatively rational sense of scale.

    frosty (648974)

  200. If it was a legal sale and everything conformed to the Fed., rules/regs and Texas law, it’s a legal sale

    Let’s say that you come into my store. You ask to buy two Beretta PX4s and 500 rounds of 9mm (assuming I have some). We do the background check, and while we are waiting you start going on about how you want to kill a lot of people.

    Check comes back OK, and I sell you the guns. You go off and kill a lot of people. But I’m off the hook because the background check came in OK?

    If so, we have a problem.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  201. we each have specific roles to fill should a lock down go into effect.

    I hope you never have to use that plan.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  202. Nic, that’s such a sad reality. How do the kids react to it? Normal? Are they aware that’s not how it was not all that long ago?

    Been to the airport lately? There was a day when OJ could run through an airport to catch his flight. Probably wouldn’t work any more.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  203. @203. Yes. See #65: If we can curtail airplane hijackings, we should be capable of managing this and still maintain the essence o/t 2nd amendment. It won’t stop all the incidents, but it can deter. There was a time in my life when you could literally just show a boarding pass, walk on to a plane and fly off to your destination without a body cavity search and your luggage “rifled.” Certainly can’t do that today- but we, the many, tolerate it and adapt because of the transgressions of the few– as inconvenient as it may be, and still travel.’

    DCSCA (ee9a0e)

  204. @Kevin@202 We fortunately haven’t had to use it in the way you mean, but we’ve had 2 non-drill lockdowns this year. One was due to a crime in a neighborhood shopping center where the police chased the suspect into the neighborhood near the school and the other was due to a mentally ill and very high man shaking the fence and yelling at our students in PE and then running around the school to try to enter campus through the gate near the office. Our school resource officer took care of that issue. We also had a PE teacher who found a ziplock of fentanyl out on the edge of campus. Also one of my students who is less likely to use their frontal lobe was smoking in a restroom and threw the butt into a trash can full of discarded papertowels and set the restroom trash on fire. So, you know, some interesting events.

    Nic (896fdf)

  205. Notice the media only wants to talk about law enforcement (L E) respond when the border patrol agent came in and took out the shooter 40 minutes after first local police action. sh*t is going to hit the fan on this one. News media won’t be able to protect local latinx officials much longer. AP is already running stories and their are videos that will make the parkland cop look tame by comparison.

    asset (c30327)

  206. why did it take 90 minutes from 9-11 call toending the shooters rampage? (daily mail)

    asset (c30327)

  207. The old Lightbringer Obama had some interesting thoughts.
    SAD.

    mg (8cbc69)

  208. @205 What you are describing sounds horrible. It sounds like a Marine with the 1000 stare coming home from a tour in a war zone.

    Why don’t you quit? I’m not being sarcastic. Do you ever wonder that you’re an active participant in something that’s giving both you and future generations PTSD? There’s got to be a way to educate kids that doesn’t require that.

    frosty (648974)

  209. 201, that’s a slippery slope, you could also ask the same question of an Indiana gun shop owner or one near say Fort Campbell KY who is selling firearms and ammo to young African American men talking about smashing an opp or listening to city-block specific drill music within earshot (a nondescript nerd/grandma straw buyer is more common) Broken window style / snitch “deterrence” would bring in a civil rights lawsuit by the Ben Crumbs of the world so fast the gun organizations wouldn’t need to lift a finger.

    urbanleftbehind (2b999d)

  210. asset, most people are gonna see it as circumstances i.e. a BP on his way back from home or lunch to the border station or San Onofre-type inspection checkpoint. LAPD responded to a school shooter in Santa Maria by the happenstance of several officers residing there and taking their kids to the same school: that’s a whole other debate about housing costs, commutes, that the Californian, current and former can elaborate on

    urbanleftbehind (2b999d)

  211. …..why not give the gun store owner an incentive to not sell to crazy mass killers…..

    And how is a gun store owner supposed to identify a “crazy mass killer” buyer? Give each buyer a psychological exam?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  212. Give each buyer a psychological exam?

    Maybe. At least talk to them about why they want to buy a gun. 99 9 times out of a 1000, it will be just fine, but crazy people say crazy things.

    It makes more sense to place blame at the gun shop than on some distant manufacturer.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  213. I have no idea why the last is in moderation, but it is.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  214. Why I want to buy a gun is no one’s business.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  215. 216-🍻

    mg (8cbc69)

  216. Maybe it isn’t, Rip, and maybe I don’t sell you the gun. The point I’m trying to make is that some bureaucratic background check shouldn’t be the only line of def. The seller has a duty to make a judgment too.

    Kevin M (3d39cc)

  217. It’s now coming out that the school officer did NOT confront the shooter.

    Kevin M (3d39cc)

  218. 35. Biden will speak at 8:15 </i?

    He actually spoke at 8:45. The speech was prepared pretty fast. Cynics would say it was largely based on an old speech draft, which is not a crime.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  219. Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 5/25/2022 @ 10:48 am

    Sammy, what other constitutional rights do you want to impose taxes, deposits, bonds, training, licensing or or insurance requirements on?

    You’re thinking religious organizations or printing. Religiou organizations are mos similar.

    I don;t think the rightof the “people” to keep and bear arms is a personal right because then there would be no difference between keeping and bearing. And I’m not proposing taking it away – I’m just porposing this be a group right.

    As for what kind of weapons, the SSupreme Court in Heller was incoherent and begged the question. They said arms in common use. But common use is dependent on law.

    We don’t have James Bond type gadget guns, or even guns that are orange. Weapons cn be outlawed, And f they have to be outlawed also for thre police, OK. And red flag laws don’t work but green light laws would and would be less of an infrringement/

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  220. @frosty@209 Why don’t you quit? I’m not being sarcastic. Do you ever wonder that you’re an active participant in something that’s giving both you and future generations PTSD? There’s got to be a way to educate kids that doesn’t require that.

    I’m good at my job, I like the kids, and someone has to do what I do. Also, you get used to whatever weird thing is going on.

    Nic (896fdf)

  221. I don;t think the rightof the “people” to keep and bear arms is a personal right because then there would be no difference between keeping and bearing. And I’m not proposing taking it away – I’m just porposing this be a group right.

    As for what kind of weapons, the SSupreme Court in Heller was incoherent and begged the question.

    Well, the SC disagrees that it is a personal right. As far as what weapons that right would apply, I would hazard to guess that the types of weapons that have historically existed for personal use: handguns, rifles, and shotguns. I would add any weapon that single soldier could carry, but that is my personal opinion.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  222. Maybe it isn’t, Rip, and maybe I don’t sell you the gun. The point I’m trying to make is that some bureaucratic background check shouldn’t be the only line of def. The seller has a duty to make a judgment too.

    Kevin M (3d39cc) — 5/26/2022 @ 1:26 pm

    A gun store clerk is no one to make a judgement about someone’s motives or sanity. How would they make that judgement? By the clothes you wear? By your accent? A gut feeling? What happens if the clerk denies someone a gun they were trying to purchase for protection and they end up murdered? Can their estate sue the dealer?

    Your idea is as idiotic as allowing victims to sue gun manufacturers (or your idea to sue gun dealers).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  223. Dealer’s choice. Under ATF regulations, an FFL has broad discretion to refuse to sell a gun to anybody regardless of whether they check all the boxes (one of which is “Watcha want the gub for?”).

    nk (17e93b)

  224. And, for a while, Patterico had a policy of putting a certain commenter into moderation on particular posts. I recommend it for another commenter(s) on this and the subsequent Uvalde tragedy posts.

    nk (17e93b)

  225. 208. Yes. Obama tweeted that we shouldn’t be distracted by this from thinking about George Floyd on the second anniversary of his death,

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  226. Deranged gun control knobs being encouraged to confront and harass Cruz in restaurant.

    There are elections to win.

    Meanwhile the training the Uvalde Police Dept. had just two months ago included this:

    “Time is of the essence. The first priority is to move in and confront the attacker.”

    https://twitter.com/bymikebaker/status/1530357140191186944?s=21&t=qd2uotV1cDLIl2dLi3qPjg

    Obudman (509171)


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