Patterico's Pontifications

2/15/2021

Republican Congressman Who Voted To Impeach Trump Faces Shunning From Family Members

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:32 pm



[guest post by Dana]

As someone who has been squeezed by family members from both the Trump camp and the progressive camp because of my non-Trumpian-non-progressive brand of politics, I read with interest this profile of Rep. Adam Kinzinger:

A new profile on Congressman Adam Kinzinger, one of the few House Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump, reveals that several family members actually sent him a handwritten letter criticizing his condemnation of the former president’s actions that led to the riots at the Capitol.

Kinzinger spoke to the New York Times about his efforts to get the GOP to move on from Trump, but the report also highlights how he’s received criticism not just from fellow Republicans but from family members.

Lest you think that Kinzinger leaked the letter to the press to get back at family members, think again:

The author of the letter was Karen Otto, Mr. Kinzinger’s cousin, who paid $7 to send it by certified mail to Mr. Kinzinger’s father — to make sure the congressman would see it, which he did. She also sent copies to Republicans across Illinois, including other members of the state’s congressional delegation.

“I wanted Adam to be shunned,” she said in an interview.

The letter begins by telling Kinzinger that he is a disappointment both to his family and to God and that he has embarrassed the Kinzinger family name. It continues in the same vein:

We were once so proud of your accomplishments! Instead, you go against your principles and join the “devil’s army” (Democrats and the fake news media)…President Trump is not perfect. But neither are you or any of us for that matter! It is not for us to judge, or be judged. But he is a Christian.

Family signators then unwittingly bestowed a medal of honor on the representative:

“You should be very proud that you have lost the respect of Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Greg Kelly, etc., and most importantly in our book, Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh and us!”

Anyway, you get the picture.

For his part, Kinzinger understands that there is nothing he can do about how his family members view him:

Mr. Kinzinger said he has little desire to reach out to the loudest critics in his district’s Republican organizations, whom he hasn’t spoken to in years and said hold little sway over voters. The letter-writers in his family, he said, suffer from “brainwashing” from conservative churches that have led them astray.

“I hold nothing against them,’’ he said, “but I have zero desire or feel the need to reach out and repair that. That is 100 percent on them to reach out and repair, and quite honestly, I don’t care if they do or not.”

What he is interested in these days, is seeing the Republican party divorced from Trump. He understands that any efforts to fix the party is an uphill battle at this point in time. And he also understands that he could easily become a casualty of the party that he is trying to re-make:

He began a new political action committee with a six-minute video declaring the need to re-format the Republican Party into something resembling an idealized version of George W. Bush’s party — with an emphasis on lower taxes, hawkish defense and social conservatism — without the grievances and conspiracy theories that Mr. Trump and his allies have made central to the party’s identity.

To do so, Mr. Kinzinger said in an interview, requires exposing the fear-based tactics he hopes to eradicate from the party and present an optimistic alternative.

“We just fear,” he said. “Fear the Democrats. Fear the future. Fear everything. And it works for an election cycle or two. The problem is it does real damage to this democracy.”

As to his own future in the party, Mr. Kinzinger said he will know by the end of the summer whether he can remain a Republican for the long term or whether he will be motivated to change his party affiliation if it becomes clear to him that Mr. Trump’s allies have become a permanent majority.

“The party’s sick right now,” he said. “It’s one thing if the party was accepting of different views, but it’s become this massive litmus test on everything. So it’s a possibility down the road, but it’s certainly not my intention, and I’m going to fight like hell to save it first.”

No matter how it shakes out, I’m sure Kinzinger, who has already been censured by his party for his vote to impeach Trump, will land on his feet and be just fine. However, I’m not so sure about his family members who signed the letter.

–Dana

71 Responses to “Republican Congressman Who Voted To Impeach Trump Faces Shunning From Family Members”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. I didn’t want to pick apart the family’s letter because it seems tacky to do so, but this part is a good representation of the illogical and inconsistent views of the majority of Trump’s base:

    President Trump is not perfect. But neither are you or any of us for that matter! It is not for us to judge, or be judged. But he is a Christian.

    Trump isn’t perfect. Agreed.

    And none of us are either. Agreed.

    We shouldn’t judge, or be judgedbut Trump is a Christian. How do you know that? Because other Trump-supporting pastors have said so? Because Trump held up a Bible for a photo-op? Because Trump gave a Christmas message? What actual Christlike behaviors has he evidenced? What fruits of the Spirit has he demonstrated that point to the transforming power of Christ? And most importantly, how can one who says they don’t need forgiveness from God be a practicing believer?

    Dana (fd537d)

  3. I’m going to fight like hell

    I see what he did there. Very nice.

    He began a new political action committee with a six-minute video declaring the need to re-format the Republican Party into something resembling an idealized version of George W. Bush’s party — with an emphasis on lower taxes, hawkish defense and social conservatism

    That’d be something interesting to see. I noticed he didn’t mention any planned legislation and he left a whole lot to the imagination. Let’s hope this isn’t more GOPe focus grouped vapor-promises.

    On the family letter thing; that stuff just needs to be ignored. People have family disagreements that become public because we’ve become addicted to some toxic behaviors as a society. One of them is no one really wants to adult. Everyone has nutty family members and for some people in my family that includes me.

    frosty (f27e97)

  4. Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:42 pm

    Do we really need to have this conversation for the nth time? I think we all know that you don’t consider yourself in altar and pulpit fellowship with DJT.

    frosty (f27e97)

  5. “…you have lost the respect of Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Greg Kelly, etc., and most importantly in our book, Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh and us!…”

    If anyone doubts when I reference the GOP puppet masters…..here they are called out in one great shaming. She could have added Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, and Jerry Falwell Jr to complete the unholy triad of Trump enablers. What’s most sad is how religious people have been conned into believing that people with different political preferences….literally their neighbors….are the “devil’s army”…..and that only Trump is the way, the truth, and the life. How embarassingly un-Christian. The steady fear-and-anger programming from Talk Radio…then Fox News….and capped off by a new catechism of hate from the pulpit….has left us with a GOP plurality that appears mentally and morally neutered. The purveyors of Talk Radio and FNC have to recognize the damage that they’ve wrought….and start to fix it. I applaud Kinzinger….but he needs help….and he needs to be able to get his message of optimism and traditional principles out…..

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  6. frosty @ 4,

    Feel free to skip my posts.

    Dana (fd537d)

  7. He went to the NY Times…

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  8. He went to the NY Times…

    it’s almost like dishonesty is your passion.

    Lest you think that Kinzinger leaked the letter to the press to get back at family members, think again:

    The author of the letter was Karen Otto, Mr. Kinzinger’s cousin, who paid $7 to send it by certified mail to Mr. Kinzinger’s father — to make sure the congressman would see it, which he did. She also sent copies to Republicans across Illinois, including other members of the state’s congressional delegation.

    “I wanted Adam to be shunned,” she said in an interview.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  9. Klink,

    perhaps you need to read. Here you go.

    Kinzinger spoke to the New York Times about his efforts to get the GOP to move on from Trump, but the report also highlights how he’s received criticism not just from fellow Republicans but from family members.

    Here’s the link Dana so helpfully posted that you ignored.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/15/us/politics/adam-kinzinger-republicans-trump.html

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  10. The Times only highlights Republicans when they attack other Republicans or when they are useful tools to the left. In the past on the rare occasion when they allowed a Republican to speak without editorial control, Tom Cotton for example, people got fired.

    It’s a leftist cesspool for the leftist agenda.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  11. The one who wrote the letter and co-signed Trump’s treason is the one who should be ashamed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. you have lost the respect of Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Greg Kelly, etc., and most importantly in our book, Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh and us!…”

    Well, the feeling is mutual, although I have a longer list. Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Marco Rubio for starters. Glenn Harlan Reynolds is the more disappointing, as unlike some politicians, no one was forcing him to go fascist.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  13. Hmm…He went to the Times yesterday about a story that’s been out for a month. Cool, cool, cool.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  14. “The party’s sick right now,” he said.

    What goes around comes around; echoes of 1964.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. It sure is, DCSCA. The pedophile wing of the party wants control. Imagine that!
    Love it.

    mg (8cbc69)

  16. Now the Trump wing wants to get in on “cancel culture.”

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  17. I don’t know what I would do if I lost the respect of Laura Ingraham. It’s just too horrible to contemplate.

    nk (1d9030)

  18. #17

    I knew her in college. I have been living with the consequences of her lack of respect for years.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  19. Kinzinger spoke to the New York Times

    The New York Times does that a lot when they almost certainly were the ones who called. I think it is highly likely tha the New York Times went to him, and not the other way around.


    What he is interested in these days, is seeing the Republican party divorced from Trump,

    It seems like he wants to purge what is the majority of his party in Illinois. Maybe some events can come along to disassociate it.

    What we need is not another party, but more political independence, which includes being able to raise money in larger amounts.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  20. It’s hearing this election stealing stuff from a friend that is part of what moved Cassidy to vote this way, according to the New York Times.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/14/us/politics/republican-senators-impeachment-trump.html

    The seed for Senator Bill Cassidy’s decision to find Donald J. Trump guilty of inciting an insurrection was planted one day last fall, when he received an email from a friend that was full of the then-president’s false claims about a stolen election.

    Alarmed that Mr. Trump’s lies were gaining credence, Mr. Cassidy, a Louisiana Republican, became part of a small minority in his party — and one of only a few officials in the South — to acknowledge President Biden’s victory. Months later, after Mr. Trump’s campaign to overturn the election culminated in the Capitol riot, Mr. Cassidy was one of only seven Republican senators who voted on Saturday to convict him.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  21. I still think Kinzinger intends to run for Secretary of State of Illinois in 2022, when the undefeatable Jesse White steps down leaving an open field. A Republican might still be electable statewide in Illinois if he is not a Trump-supporting Republican.

    nk (1d9030)

  22. #19

    A Republican Party owned by Trumpists will not accept anything less than continuing fealty to the leader. Because that is what Trump demands. And that merges well with the folks who always wanted moderate Republicans dismissed from leadership roles, and a base fed for years about how the GOP’s problem has been that it’s just too wimpy to fight those rough tough scheming and cheating Democrats.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  23. #19

    A Republican Party owned by Trumpists will not accept anything less than continuing fealty to the leader. Because that is what Trump demands. And that merges well with the folks who always wanted moderate Republicans dismissed from leadership roles, and a base fed for years about how the GOP’s problem has been that it’s just too wimpy to fight those rough tough scheming and cheating Democrats.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 2/16/2021 @ 6:40 am

    I think it’s more about loyalty to the tribe. Trump stripped out adherence to principle or policy goals and just make it 100% culture war. There’s always been an element of that, but now it’s the main point and everything else is a minor concern.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  24. But could Cassidy, like Kinzinger is suspected with regard to ILSoS, be angling for Governor of LA? That’s one office which has not fallen to Trumpy Rs in 2 most recent tries (2015, 2019), although it took a pro-life WM cajun Dem to pull it off.

    Kinzinger will need a lot of 1-day only crossover Dem votes in the respective R primary to get over the party nomination hump -whichever statewide office he seeks. Such gambits are not unheard of here, The teachers unions almost put moderate Kirk Dillard in the R nom for Gov in 2014 as a easily defeatable; the same forces kept sitting gov Rauner in the R nom against a more conservative Jeannie Ives (think a less Q Amanda Chase)in 2018.

    urbanleftbehind (9f1de9)

  25. @6 before we start let me say upfront that I don’t know anything about anyone else’s faith, including DJT. If we found out tomorrow he had the mark of the beast on the back of his head I wouldn’t be surprised. At this point anything is possible.

    Disclaimer done; let’s dig a little then.

    Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:42 pm

    How do you know that?

    She doesn’t. How do you? How does anyone know either way? They don’t. The question isn’t “is a Christian” it’s how to be a better one.

    Because Trump held up a Bible for a photo-op? Because Trump gave a Christmas message?

    My general sense is that people who do these opportunist displays of piety are running afoul of the 3rd commandment. Does that make them un-Christian or not Christian? No, I wouldn’t say that. Do the public professions make them Christian? No, I wouldn’t say that either.

    What actual Christlike behaviors has he evidenced? What fruits of the Spirit has he demonstrated that point to the transforming power of Christ?

    This is a better question but only marginally in this context. If I were his confessor or talking to him personally this would be a great opportunity for instruction. But here you’re just complaining that you haven’t seen any evidence, or evidence that you’re willing to accept. Are you using this for instruction or any constructive purpose? Are you sure this doesn’t reflect more on you than him?

    And most importantly, how can one who says they don’t need forgiveness from God be a practicing believer?

    This really seems like the heart of your comment; what you are pointing to is pride. I don’t think he was making a larger statement about doctrine. However, you are aware that some doctrines do teach something like this? Notably Calvin had some interesting conclusions about predestination. I don’t agree with that but there are some very interesting variants of this that are alive and well today.

    With respect to pride; I wouldn’t say that prevents a person from being a believer. Again, if I were his confessor this would be another opportunity for instruction.

    Are you sure you aren’t falling into the same trap of pride? It sounds like your righteous indignation is triggered by DJT being called a Christian, you consider yourself a Christian, and you don’t want to have that in common.

    frosty (470cf8)

  26. This is a better question but only marginally in this context. If I were his confessor or talking to him personally this would be a great opportunity for instruction. But here you’re just complaining that you haven’t seen any evidence, or evidence that you’re willing to accept. Are you using this for instruction or any constructive purpose? Are you sure this doesn’t reflect more on you than him?

    When i see a man who has lived a long life in the public eye and can’t find any words or deeds that appear influenced by the teachings of Christ it’s hard to conclude they’re a devote follower. They might be a nominal member of the church, a CEO Christian, or identify as a Christian but that’s different.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  27. When i see a man who has lived a long life in the public eye and can’t find any words or deeds that appear influenced by the teachings of Christ it’s hard to conclude they’re a devote follower. They might be a nominal member of the church, a CEO Christian, or identify as a Christian but that’s different.

    We are talking about Trump, not Biden.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  28. Here is how the Kinzinger family addresses the Christian question:

    …(If God can forgive and use King David in the Bible, he can use the same with President Trump). Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffers, to just name a few, of many pastors, who mentor President Trump, know that he is a believer! Obviously, you did not hear President Trump’s Christmas Message to the American People…where he actually gave the plan of salvation, instructing people how to repent and ask the Savior into their heart to be “Born Again” (To believe in John 3:16)

    A copy of the first page of the letter (without paywall) is here:

    https://www.mebere.com/karen-otto-adam-kinzinger-letter-family-greg-wedding-illinois-nyt

    Appalled (1a17de)

  29. When i see a man who has lived a long life in the public eye and can’t find any words or deeds that appear influenced by the teachings of Christ it’s hard to conclude they’re a devote follower. They might be a nominal member of the church, a CEO Christian, or identify as a Christian but that’s different.

    We are talking about Trump, not Biden.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 2/16/2021 @ 7:43 am

    You’re free to make up your own mind.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  30. But, it’s easy to see how someone that said this might be motivated by Jesus call for charity or loving out neighbors.

    “This is not a nation that can, or will, simply stand by and watch the suffering around us. That is not who we are. That is not what faith calls us to be,” he said. “That is why I’m reestablishing the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships to work with leaders of different faiths and backgrounds who are the frontlines of their communities in crisis and who can help us heal, unite, and rebuild.”

    He added: “We still have many difficult nights to endure. But we will get through them together and with faith guiding us through the darkness and into the light.”

    I’m not saying Biden is a good Christian or Catholic. I’m saying that I can see how some of the things he does seem motivated by things Jesus taught. I didn’t see that from Trump much in his presidency, and not at all prior to his career as a politician.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  31. When his arteries, or the electric chair, finally claim Trump, these people will be holding vigils and waiting for him to rise on the third day…

    Dave (1bb933)

  32. The message the Kinzinger letter describes is written about here:

    http://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/10288/20201213/president-trump-delivers-the-most-important-christmas-message-to-all-americans.htm

    Unfortunately, the link to the message was assassinated in the recent purge of Trump from the internet. Maybe somebody can find it and let us know if Trump sounded like he was a hostage forced to read a prepared script by kidnappers.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  33. When his arteries, or the electric chair, finally claim Trump, these people will be holding vigils and waiting for him to rise on the third day…

    Hopefully they are standing inside a pentacle when it happens.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. I’m saying that I can see how some of the things he does seem motivated by things Jesus taught.

    Please point out where Jesus suggested taking other people’s goods and money and giving them to the poor.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. Please point out where Jesus preached his fiscal policy.

    Dave (1bb933)

  36. There’s no logic in religion. Combine that with Kinzinger’s relatives giving new meaning to “counter-intelligence” ….

    nk (1d9030)

  37. Please point out where Jesus spent significant time worrying about the safety and comfort of the rich, as opposed to the needs and suffering of the poor.

    Victor (4959fb)

  38. He went to the NY Times…
    NJRob (eb56c3) — 2/15/2021 @ 10:17 pm

    Does that nullify the content and spirit of the letter handwritten by a relative, signed by several others, and distributed widely by them in the hope that he will be “shunned” for the sin of not being unconditionally loyal to the politician they hero-worship?

    I guess the problem in your eyes is not that those Trump-worshiping relatives are behaving in an un-Christian way in service to their god-king; no, the problem is that their nastiness is getting even wider exposure than they may have expected, and that a lot of people see it for what it is.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  39. Dave (1bb933) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:23 am

    Please point out where Jesus preached his fiscal policy.

    Jesus doesn’t seem to have given many lectures on macro-economics. He seemed to be more about micro.

    But maybe or this.

    frosty (f27e97)

  40. Faith in miracles – in defiance of natural law – is the foundation of populist economic theory…

    Dave (1bb933)

  41. As David French has cautioned, it’s dangerous to closely tie your religious faith to any political party….because then your faith gets inevitably corrupted by personalities and positions that are anything but informed or inspired by Biblical ethics. That said, the Evangelical allegiance to Trump is doubly confounding because most of the time, Trump doesn’t even seem to try. For some reason, the demand for people of character has been sacrificed at the altar of political expediency. Pro-life judges and attacking social progressives are enough to rationalize the rest. It’s amazing…and disappointing…in so many ways….. It all seems to hinge on this existential desperation of defeating liberalism that does not match the actual threat. But outrage and hyperbole sells….and we’ve been suckered in by it…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  42. The Fundamentalist racket has been running the long con a lot longer than Trump. To the Grahams and Falwells, he’s just a fly-by-night. Still, he’s one of them, so when he came along, they showed him professional courtesy, and let him work the rubes too. They weren’t going to queer his pitch. “Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump!” is their code. It didn’t cut into their take and it even brought in new marks, so they’re playing along.

    See? It’s simple if you do the analysis and have read Dashiell Hammett. He really was a real private eye for the P!nkertons before he started writing you know.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. nk —

    Hm. I thought Elmer Gantry was the go to for 20s analysis of religious grifters. Which Continental Op story takes on the phony God Racket?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  44. The Dain Curse in direct answer to your question, Appalled. However, my description of grifter ethics is from “The Assistant Murderer”, featuring Alexander Rush, another Hammett private eye.

    nk (1d9030)

  45. And from the immortal Larsen E. Whipsnade.

    nk (1d9030)

  46. 32. Appalled (1a17de) — 2/16/2021 @ 7:57 am

    Unfortunately, the link to the message was assassinated in the recent purge of Trump from the internet. Maybe somebody can find it and let us know if Trump sounded like he was a hostage forced to read a prepared script by kidnappers.

    Is this what you are looking for?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuP2FD1F6eQ

    The one that’s maybe supposed to be like a hostage video, except it isn’t, is included here:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-trial-live-updates/2021/02/11/967034292/house-democrats-use-trumps-own-words-to-argue-he-showed-no-remorse-after-attack

    Trump does tell them to go home, but he maintains all his claims.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  47. What does sound like a hostage statement is the one from the fired New York Times reporter, where he confesses that any use of a horribly denigrating word is intolerable regardless of context.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9230137/Top-New-York-Times-reporter-RESIGNS-apologizes-bad-judgement-use-N-word.html

    Donald McNeil Jr. announced he was standing down from the paper after 45 years in a letter to staff Friday following the incident coming to light last week
    He said he ‘originally thought the context in which I used this ugly word could be defended’ but now realized ‘it cannot’

    Top bosses had previously said he should be ‘given another chance’ saying McNeil hadn’t used the word with ‘malicious or hateful intent’

    But they also changed tact Friday telling staff in an email ‘we do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent’

    A group of 150 staff sent a letter to execs Wednesday slamming the paper’s lack of action and demanding a probe into ‘newly surfaced complaints’ against him.

    Hannah-Jones, the reporter behind the 1619 Project, vowed to call parents and students who took part in the trip to find out what happened, sources said.

    The leadership team responded vowing to ‘improve our workplace culture’ and promising staffers they will see ‘results’ over how the company handles issues.

    It emerged last week that multiple students and parents had lodged complaints about McNeil back in 2019 following a Times-ran school trip.

    McNeil allegedly used the N-word, said white privilege does not exist and made disparaging comments about black people.

    Part of the staff of the New York Times is looking for counter-revolutionaries. The publisher seems to be cowering.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  48. The Fundamentalist racket has been running the long con a lot longer than Trump. To the Grahams and Falwells, he’s just a fly-by-night. Still, he’s one of them, so when he came along, they showed him professional courtesy, and let him work the rubes too. They weren’t going to queer his pitch. “Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump!” is their code. It didn’t cut into their take and it even brought in new marks, so they’re playing along.

    Love this, nk. Well said.

    Dana (fd537d)

  49. we do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent

    This is drifting off thread but I’m wondering how this is going to work if this actually is the new standard. Why isn’t replacing the N-word with N-word also racist language? It’s not like we don’t know what the word is. Has the Times decided to not tolerate Webster’s dictionary? How are they not tolerating racist language by their reporting using racist language?

    frosty (f27e97)

  50. I’m glad that Karen seems to feel that she speaks for God (Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain) but I can’t see where being or not being a Christian has much to do with whether or not he should be held responsible for his behavior. If someone steals stuff from me, I am not particularly concerned with whether or not they are churched or baptized or confirmed or have accepted Jesus as their personal savior. It’s irrelevant. Christians and non-Christians alike make bad decisions and you don’t get a pass on dealing with the consequences for those just because you are a believer.

    Nic (896fdf)

  51. we do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent

    This is drifting off thread but I’m wondering how this is going to work if this actually is the new standard. Why isn’t replacing the N-word with N-word also racist language? It’s not like we don’t know what the word is. Has the Times decided to not tolerate Webster’s dictionary? How are they not tolerating racist language by their reporting using racist language?

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 11:37 am

    I’ll follow the drift. What I think they’re trying to say is that if someone uses racist language our employee uses words that have traditionally been used to denote a racist message or inflict emotional distress in a way that appears racist to us , we’re not going to tolerate it, even when based on our history with the person we don’t want to think they were trying to be racist.

    At least that’s my interpretation based on the context.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  52. Nic (896fdf) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:00 pm

    I’m glad that Karen seems to feel that she speaks for God

    There’s a lot of that going around.

    I can’t see where being or not being a Christian has much to do with whether or not he should be held responsible for his behavior

    There’s always someone ready to use their bible as a club and invariably someone else pulls out their version with the study notes and pictures of the holy land because it’s a thicker club.

    frosty (f27e97)

  53. Bret Stephens wrote about it. It’s not clear if he wanted to make it his column but the publisher spiked it and it was circulated internally at the New York Times and leaked to the New York Post and published on Friday witha front page headline.

    https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/ny-times-spikes-column-that-criticized-papers-handling-of-n-word-controversy

    The Washington Free Beacon, meanwhile, pointed out that the Times recently used the N-word in its own reporting on Princeton classics professor Dan-el Padilla Peralta. And Pulitzer Prize-winning colleague Nikole Hannah-Jones, the reporter behind the controversial 1619 Project, has recently used it in tweets.

    When Washington Free Beacon asked Hannah-Jones about the discrepancy, she reportedly tweeted out the reporter’s inquiry, including his cellphone number — in violation of the site’s terms of service. She then wiped out her entire Twitter history — a move that the paper subsequently defended.

    Here is the column (possibly revised)

    https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/read-the-column-the-new-york-times-didnt-want-you-read

    …A hallmark of injustice is indifference to intention. Most of what is cruel, intolerant, stupid and misjudged in life stems from that indifference… Late last week, Donald G. McNeil Jr., a veteran science reporter for The Times, abruptly departed from his job following the revelation that he had uttered a racial slur while on a New York Times trip to Peru for high school students. In the course of a dinner discussion, he was asked by a student whether a 12-year-old should have been suspended by her school for making a video in which she had used a racial slur.

    In a written apology to staff, McNeil explained what happened next: “To understand what was in the video, I asked if she had called someone else the slur or whether she was rapping or quoting a book title. In asking the question, I used the slur itself.”

    In an initial note to staff, editor-in-chief Dean Baquet noted that, after conducting an investigation, he was satisfied that McNeil had not used the slur maliciously and that it was not a firing offense. In response, more than 150 Times staffers signed a protest letter. A few days later, Baquet and managing editor Joe Kahn reached a different decision.

    “We do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent,” they wrote on Friday afternoon. They added to this unambiguous judgment that the paper would “work with urgency to create clearer guidelines and enforcement about conduct in the workplace, including red-line issues on racist language.”

    This is not a column about the particulars of McNeil’s case…This is an argument about three words: “Regardless of intent.” Should intent be the only thing that counts in judgment? Obviously not. Can people do painful, harmful, stupid or objectionable things regardless of intent? Obviously.

    Do any of us want to live in a world, or work in a field, where intent is categorically ruled out as a mitigating factor? I hope not….

    No wonder The Times has never previously been shy about citing racial slurs in order to explain a point. Here is a famous quote by the late Republican strategist Lee Atwater that has appeared at least seven times in The Times, most recently in 2019, precisely because it powerfully illuminates the mindset of a crucial political player…

    [quote deleted – go to the link[

    ….s this now supposed to be a scandal? Would the ugliness of Atwater’s meaning have been equally clearer by writing “n—, n—, n—”? A journalism that turns words into totems — and totems into fears — is an impediment to clear thinking and proper understanding.

    So too is a journalism that attempts to proscribe entire fields of expression. “Racist language” is not just about a single infamous word. It’s a broad, changing, contestable category. There are many people — I include myself among them — ho think that hardcore anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism. That’s also official policy at the State Department and the British Labour Party…

    ….We are living in a period of competing moral certitudes, of people who are awfully sure they’re right and fully prepared to be awful about it. Hence the culture of cancellations, firings, public humiliations and increasingly unforgiving judgments. The role of good journalism should be to lead us out of this dark defile. Last week, we went deeper into it.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  54. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:19 pm

    I think you need to remove

    in a way that appears racist to us

    They’ve already said it’s not a matter of whether something appears racists.

    words that have traditionally been used to denote a racist message or inflict emotional distress

    That would match up better. But that implies context doesn’t matter either. This is starting to look like the beginning of a Monty Python sketch.

    I’m also still curious about n-word itself. Is it supposed to bypass this “traditionally used” issue because it’s new? We don’t have a history of crackers saying ‘n-word’ so it’s ok? It’s just a proxy for the other word. It’s only ok because it’s used when you are intending to not be racists. I’m sure it’d be offensive if I just used some pig-latin like language where I change everything to [first letter]-word.

    frosty (f27e97)

  55. And the thing is, the NYT dealtt with this two years ago, but now it was revived. Double jeopardy!

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  56. @22. The big mistake is to conflate Trumpists w/populists. He just picked up the flag and carried the Buchanan, Perot and Palin banners forward… channeled their rage into eyeball-grabbing TeeVee imagery w/a an in four face savvy marketing mix and won. Remove Trump from the equation now and the caldron of populism is still there simmering for another boil over– and it’s a problem for both major parties due to their 40-plus year history of non-responsive needs of the greate midde and lower middle class governed. It’s a foolish to believe President Plagiarist, oozing Dupont swamp sog from all pores, is going to be cut any slack from these ‘folks’ in either party, too– just because he’s ‘not Trump.’ The number of angry indies grows.

    All the jerk has done is sign EOs, cry he has ‘a plan’ for everything while demonstrating the constipated senatorial inaction you’d expect from an old man w/50 years in government. Town Halls w/t Coop pleading for ‘bipartisanship’ doesn’t cut it. Every day he dithers, more citizens die and more businesses founder. If he truly had any leadership balls n waned to address te emergency had n- at lest w/t image of concern, he’d pull a Truman and call these lazy-azzed Congresscritters back from their vacation [hell, they just had a long one over the holidays] and demand they get to work. Every day he waits means lives and livelihoods lost.

    Action this day was Churchill’s motto; little wonder President Plagiarist had Winnie’s bust removed from the Oval.

    “The President leads by example.” – White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki 2/16/21

    Swell. We’re screwed.
    _______

    @43. Pfft. David French is irrelevant– and apparently slept through the Moral Majority days of Ronnie’s 1980s– when it worked for his side.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:19 pm

    I think you need to remove

    in a way that appears racist to us

    They’ve already said it’s not a matter of whether something appears racists.

    words that have traditionally been used to denote a racist message or inflict emotional distress

    That would match up better. But that implies context doesn’t matter either. This is starting to look like the beginning of a Monty Python sketch.

    I’m also still curious about n-word itself. Is it supposed to bypass this “traditionally used” issue because it’s new? We don’t have a history of crackers saying ‘n-word’ so it’s ok? It’s just a proxy for the other word. It’s only ok because it’s used when you are intending to not be racists. I’m sure it’d be offensive if I just used some pig-latin like language where I change everything to [first letter]-word.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 1:21 pm

    I didn’t see where they said it not a matter of if something appears racist, but I’m going from the quote in sammy’s comment, not the article.

    I think in a way that appears racist to us is implied because there isn’t an absolute standard and they’re going to have to make decisions with respect to employment.

    To your point about saying ‘n-word’. People use ‘n-word’ and everyone knows what word they mean. But ‘n-word’ isn’t intended to be offensive and there’s no history of it being offensive. In fact, it’s used specifically not to give offense. That’s the context around it. I’m sure you can find applications where it would be offensive, and it can be used to convey thoughts that are themselves offensive. If you created an entirely new context it might be offensive there. But this seems like a pretty trivial point. All common language depends on context.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  58. Time123 (dba73f) — 2/16/2021 @ 2:21 pm

    We do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent

    I think you and I are interpreting this differently. I would ask you to read the article. They initially found that it was not intended to be racists, i.e. the reporter did not appear to be using it with racist intent. Given the context within which the reporter used the word it was clear he was not being racist. They didn’t later discover evidence contrary to that. They later decided that it didn’t matter.

    I think in a way that appears racist to us is implied

    I don’t think you can infer this. They investigated the situation and determined that it did not appear racist to them. It doesn’t appear racist to me.

    because there isn’t an absolute standard

    They’ve just created one. Their standard is using the n-word gets you fired. I don’t think they will be consistent but that’s a different issue.

    and they’re going to have to make decisions with respect to employment.

    Exactly, they already have other examples of other employees using the term. The person making the biggest stink about this reporter is one of those employees.

    frosty (f27e97)

  59. I have been married, for 41 years, 8 months and 28 days, to a liberal Democrat who hates Donald Trump, who despises Donald Trump, who abominates Donald Trump, yet somehow, some way — even though she watched the shampeachment feces show on CNN, which chased me out of that room — we aren’t getting divorced over it.

    The Dana in Kentucky (c3b452)

  60. Mr Snowman wrote:

    We do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent

    I think you and I are interpreting this differently. I would ask you to read the article. They initially found that it was not intended to be racists, i.e. the reporter did not appear to be using it with racist intent. Given the context within which the reporter used the word it was clear he was not being racist. They didn’t later discover evidence contrary to that. They later decided that it didn’t matter.

    One of the #woke discovered it, and as Bari Weiss said, the management are terrified of the young #woke in the newsroom.

    Why? I have no idea, because they could fire them all and have 22 applicants to fill every open position that very day.

    The Dana in Kentucky (c3b452)

  61. The Dana in Kentucky (c3b452) — 2/16/2021 @ 5:46 pm

    we aren’t getting divorced over it.

    Sounds like a win. Good luck

    frosty (f27e97)

  62. The Dana in Kentucky (c3b452) — 2/16/2021 @ 5:54 pm

    Why? I have no idea, because they could fire them all and have 22 applicants to fill every open position that very day.

    But would they be substantially different? I think they’d need to recruit from Poland, or maybe Australia, to get anything other than a stepford j-school product.

    By the way, fire, fill, and open position have been added to the Times list of unacceptable words. There’s a good chance day will be added tomorrow.

    frosty (f27e97)

  63. The NYT is the house organ of an elite club. The club does not tolerate that kind of language. Why, it would be like if one’s butler said “damn” while serving the three o’clock tiffin. I’m not joking.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. “David French is irrelevant”

    Well if anyone would know irrelevant…..

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  65. @66. … he would.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  66. nk (1d9030) — 2/16/2021 @ 6:14 pm

    Elite club? From @55

    The Washington Free Beacon, meanwhile, pointed out that the Times recently used the N-word in its own reporting on Princeton classics professor Dan-el Padilla Peralta. And Pulitzer Prize-winning colleague Nikole Hannah-Jones, the reporter behind the controversial 1619 Project, has recently used it in tweets.

    When Washington Free Beacon asked Hannah-Jones about the discrepancy, she reportedly tweeted out the reporter’s inquiry, including his cellphone number — in violation of the site’s terms of service. She then wiped out her entire Twitter history — a move that the paper subsequently defended.

    It’s really more sometimes you feel like a n-word and sometimes you don’t (btw, by n-word I mean nut. Just wanted to make sure everyone knew I wasn’t using a racially insensitive word. Ableist, maybe but at least I didn’t use the c-word. btw-again, by c-word I mean crazy. Trying to keep everything f-word friendly. And by f-word I mean family.)

    frosty (f27e97)

  67. Mr Snowman wrote:

    Why? I have no idea, because they could fire them all and have 22 applicants to fill every open position that very day.

    But would they be substantially different? I think they’d need to recruit from Poland, or maybe Australia, to get anything other than a stepford j-school product.

    Maybe if they didn’t hire New Yorkers?

    One would hope that the new hires would get it, that wokeness doesn’t work, and if they are liberals, they need to keep it out of their news pieces.

    And hiring journalism school grads is a big part of the problem. Newspapers need to hire people who actually understand economics to cover economics, reporters who understand something about the subjects that they cover.

    Instead, the Times retains reporters who sleep with their sources.

    The Dana in Kentucky (c3b452)

  68. I heard on the radio news this morning that his family has sent a second letter. According to the report, it accuses him of “treason” and blames him for the storming of the Capitol. I need to get a clearer report.

    Adam Kinzerger shouldn’t get angry with or disassociate himself from them, as they, or at least one of them, feels compelled to do – he should just say it is pathetic.

    Sammy Finkelman (7e803d)

  69. The second letter is not new. It was dated Tuesday, January 19. The first letter was dated January 8.

    https://www.mystateline.com/news/politics/in-second-letter-kinzingers-family-says-congressman-brainwashed-by-fake-news-media.

    Kinzinger had said his relatives were misled after their first letter.

    The relatives, reacting in their Jan. 19 letter, “Seriously, Adam, really! You are the one being misled (brainwashed) by the Democrats and the fake news media. Again, we thought you were ‘smart enough’ to realize they were manipulating your mind. We have not disowned you, you have disowned yourself.”

    “ … If anyone is inciting violence and dividing this country it is … the fake news media and the Democrats!! It is beyond our comprehension that you have submitted and conformed to the leftist Democrats’ ideals. The fact that you have done this is reprehensible.”

    The Sun-Times was not successful Tuesday night in reaching any of the 11 relatives who signed the letter

    They accused him of self-gain and called him a RINO.

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/2/16/22286690/adam-kinzinger-relatives-second-letter-slamming-him-trump-impeachment-vote-country-first

    Sammy Finkelman (7e803d)


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