Patterico's Pontifications

2/1/2021

Is The Turmoil In The Republican Party Coming To A Head?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:50 pm



[guest post by Dana]

While the Republican Party seems on the precipice of a full-blown civil war, many have opined that it’s time for a third party to be formed. Whether such a move is undertaken by the MAGA members or the more principled members depends on who is speaking. Here are some solid arguments for the principled members of the party to officially form their own party:

In 1896, U.S. Sen. Henry Teller of Colorado, former Secretary of the Interior and one of the founders of the Republican Party, rose on the floor of the Republican convention and announced that he and 24 other Western delegates were leaving the party because they could not support the new platform language on the gold standard. In his speech, Teller said leaving his party would be painful, but “our consciences require us as honest men to make this sacrifice.” Teller and the others marched off the convention floor and formed the Silver Republican Party.

The example of Teller should guide principled Republicans today because the GOP must split. For too long, too many Republicans who were well-aware of who Donald Trump was, and what his movement represented, have been willing to look the other way to keep the Republican party from fracturing. That must end.

Instead of trying to hold it together, principled Republicans willing to put country before party need to encourage a split because a united Republican party — led by Trump or someone like him — is the greatest threat to freedom and democracy that America faces. We know that a united Trumpist GOP can win national elections. And we now know beyond all reasonable doubt that Trumpism is an authoritarian movement willing to subvert democracy and the Constitution.

To be specific, Sens. Mitt Romney, Ben Sasse, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins should join with the 10 House members who voted for impeachment, including Washington state Reps. Jaime Herrera-Beutler and Dan Newhouse, and the Republican officials who stood firm during the election, such as Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp, to form a new party, or a distinct dissident faction within the GOP…

That is what should happen. It is what has happened at similar moments repeatedly during our history.

The writer goes on to recount the number of times in U.S. history that our political parties split up, divided, realigned, and reformed, reminding readers that it’s only been for the last half-century that Americans have remained settled on two major political parties.

With that, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has called Trump’s upcoming impeachment trial a “ridiculous circus,” is making the news again by her claims that she spoke with Trump this weekend (though it was not confirmed by Trump’s camp). And this morning, she said that she will be visiting with him soon:

“But he’s doing really well,” she added. “I’m excited to go visit him soon and continue to give him a call and talk to him frequently. Great news is, he supports me 100 percent, and I’ve always supported him. President Trump is always here for the people, and he’s not going anywhere. So I look forward to, to joining him and what his future plans may be.”

However, Green continues to be a vexing problem for her party. Her unhinged conspiracy theories, her use of anti-Semitic tropes, her endorsement of violence against Democratic leaders and general nuttiness may be coming to a head. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell actually condemned her comments today. However, he chose not to call her out by name. In doing that, he missed an opportunity to exert pressure on other members who share her unhinged views:

…McConnell (R-Ky.) on Monday blasted Georgia GOP Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s embrace of “loony lies and conspiracy theories” as a “cancer for the Republican Party.”

“Somebody who’s suggested that perhaps no airplane hit the Pentagon on 9/11, that horrifying school shootings were pre-staged, and that the Clintons crashed JFK Jr.’s airplane is not living in reality,” McConnell said in a statement first shared with The Hill. “This has nothing to do with the challenges facing American families or the robust debates on substance that can strengthen our party.”

McConnell didn’t mention Greene by name in his three-sentence statement, but his rare, scathing remarks about a freshman GOP lawmaker from the other chamber suggests he recognizes the potential damage her violent rhetoric and bizarre conspiracy theories could inflict on congressional Republicans as they try to take back both the House and Senate in next year’s midterms.

Greene was anything but contrite in her response

This is such a Trumpian response. I can hear the MAGA crowd applauding her comeback: She fights back! She doesn’t back down! She says what others are afraid to say!

Meanwhile, House Minority LeaderKevin McCarthy is expected to meet with Greene on Wednesday to discuss her outlandish comments and behavior. The question of whether she will be stripped of her committee assignments remains to be seen. However, Democrats are poised to take action to remove her if McCarthy doesn’t do so himself.

Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger, who is not a fan of Greene’s, is flat-out calling for her removal:

Of course she should be removed. While we can’t prevent her from calling herself a Republican, we can take a stand, and need to.

He also responded to her on Twitter:

Kinzinger, fed up with the current state of the Republican party, is taking steps in hopes of reclaiming the party he no longer recognizes:

Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.), one of 10 Republicans to vote to impeach Donald Trump earlier this month, has launched a new political action committee that is designed to become a financial engine to challenge the former president’s wing of the GOP caucus and stand up against a leadership team still aligned with him.

Kinzinger, 42, a former star of the 2010 tea party class, said the Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol served as a final breaking point for the direction of the Republican Party, providing a stark divide between those who want to continue a path toward autocracy and those who want to return to traditional conservative values.

“The reality is this: This is a time to choose. . . . And my goal in launching Country1st.com . . . is just to say, ‘Look, let’s take a look at the last four years, how far we have come in a bad way, how backwards-looking we are, how much we peddle darkness and division,’ ” Kinzinger said on the program. “And that’s not the party I ever signed up for. And I think most Republicans didn’t sign up for that.”

Along with Kinzinger, Sen. Mitt Romney, who had already rebuked Green for spreading “nonsense” about the 2020 election having been stolen from Trump, tweeted about her alleged call with Trump:

Sen. Rob Portman also pushed back on Greene and her antics:

“I think Republican leaders ought to stand up and say it is totally unacceptable what she has said,” the Ohio senator told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union.” “I saw a couple videos over the weekend and one had to do with violence as I see it. There is no place for violence in our political dialogue. By the way there is no place for violence in our country. I mean, this is something we got to get away from. So yeah. I think people ought to speak out clearly.”

Asked if Greene, who has been appointed to the House Education and Labor Committee, should she be stripped of her committee assignments, Portman said the move could “send a message.”

“I assume that is something they’re looking at and I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens. And you know, I think that is the way to send a message,” he said. “The voters who elected her in her district in Georgia, you know, ought to be respected. On the other hand when that kind of behavior occurs there has to be a strong response.”

Perhaps if other members of the Republican Party can find the courage to effectively shut down Greene’s craziness, it could be seen as a warning to other MAGA members that enough is enough: the lunatic conspiracy theories, the continued lies about the election having been stolen from Trump, and all the other accompanying nonsense will not be tolerated by the party. If that were to happen, there might not be a reason to look into the formation of a third party as sanity would return to the GOP. But, let’s face it, this isn’t a group that has demonstrated any real fortitude and spine and rising to the occasion when the moment called for it. Nope. That’s not today’s Republican party. This is a group whose vast majority of members have exerted more energy and time to condemn Liz Cheney for voting her conscience than they have Greene, who clearly deserves their disapproval and rebuke. So maybe the time has indeed come for principled members to stop trying to hold it together put country before party.

–Dana

96 Responses to “Is The Turmoil In The Republican Party Coming To A Head?”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. Hello, Dana.

    I think that the undefeatable Jesse White has announced that he will not seek reelection for Illinois Secretary of State in 2022, and Kinzinger is angling to run for the job, that’s what I think. It has been a springboard to both the governorship and to the U.S. Senate, as well as a cornucopia of patronage clout, and Kinzinger is a young man.

    At the same time, I praise him for taking on the job of designated pig-wrestler against whatsername, so other Republicans (and in particular Liz Cheney) won’t have to. It’s not an easy thing — the pig likes it.

    nk (1d9030)

  3. Trump pollster’s campaign autopsy paints damning picture of defeat
    ……..
    The findings are based on an analysis of exit polling in 10 states. Five of them — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania — are states that Trump lost after winning them in 2016. The other five — Florida, Iowa, North Carolina, Ohio and Texas — are states that Trump won in both elections.

    The report zeroes in on an array of demographics where Trump suffered decisive reversals in 2020, including among white seniors, the same group that helped to propel him to the White House. The autopsy says that Trump saw the “greatest erosion with white voters, particularly white men,” and that he “lost ground with almost every age group.” In the five states that flipped to Biden, Trump’s biggest drop-off was among voters aged 18-29 and 65 and older.

    Suburbanites — who bolted from Trump after 2016 — also played a major role. The report says that the former president suffered a “double-digit erosion” with “White College educated voters across the board.”
    ………
    Trump’s personal behavior, the autopsy makes clear, contributed to his defeat. “Biden had a clear edge over POTUS on being seen as honest & trustworthy,” Fabrizio writes.

    Trump’s response to the pandemic was also critical. The autopsy says that coronavirus registered as the top issue among voters, and that Biden won those voters by a nearly 3-to-1 margin. A majority registered disapproval of Trump’s handling of the virus.

    Most voters said they prioritized battling the coronavirus over reopening the economy, even as the president put a firm emphasis on the latter. And roughly 75 percent of voters — most of whom favored Biden — said they favored public mask-wearing mandates.

    The report also indirectly raises questions about the reelection campaign’s decision to pause advertising on TV over the summer and save resources until the fall. According to the findings, nearly 9-in-10 voters had made up their minds about whom to support by the final month of the race.
    ……..
    Link to report.

    Rip Murdock (328795)

  4. I realize that a number of Rs are concerned with midterms, and are uneasy about taking any risks that might upset constituents. Obviously some more so than others. Unfortunately, that supersedes all else with too many of them.

    Dana (fd537d)

  5. Trumpism is American fascism
    It is revealing how a political movement that claims to be dedicated to the recovery of national greatness has so readily and completely abandoned many defining national ideals. Donald Trump’s promise of American strength has involved the betrayal of American identity.
    ……..
    What type of citizen has Trump — and his supportive partisan media — produced? Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) still holds her job in Congress because she is representative of ascendant MAGA radicalism. Those who reflect her overt racism, her unhinged conspiracy thinking and her endorsement of violence against public figures are now treated as a serious political constituency within the Republican Party. Trump has come down firmly on Greene’s side. One participant in the Jan. 6 attack sent a video to her children saying: “We broke into the Capitol. . . . We got inside, we did our part. We were looking for Nancy [Pelosi] to shoot her in the friggin’ brain, but we didn’t find her.” The detail that gets to me? She sent this to her children. She was living in a mental world where vile, shameful things are a parent’s boast. And she saw her actions as the expression of a public duty — an example of doing her part.

    ……….Trump and his media enablers are elevating and blessing the very worst among us. They are making many Americans less suited for self-government and more dangerous to their neighbors. And they are doing so for the reason some of the Founders most feared: To lead the mob against true democracy.

    How can anyone view the trashing of our founding tradition as evidence of patriotism? Because some have adopted a very different political philosophy than the Founders held. This approach to government promises the recovery of a mythical past. It feeds a sense of White victimhood. It emphasizes emotion over reason. It denigrates experts and expertise. It slanders outsiders and blames them for social and economic ills. It warns of global plots by Jews and shadowy elites. It accepts the lies of a leader as a deeper form of political truth. It revels in anger and dehumanization. It praises law and order while reserving the right to disobey the law and overturn the political order through violence.

    …….. The 45th president and a significant portion of his supporters have embraced American fascism. …..
    ……… American fascism needs to be aggressively marginalized.

    This won’t happen if responsible Republicans decline to engage the debate or leave the field entirely. Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah), Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) and Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) need reinforcements. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) needs relentless ridicule for his weakness.
    …….
    …….(T)here is a massive moral gap between the politics of George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, John McCain and Mitt Romney on one side, and Trump’s civic barbarism.

    Much about the United States’ political future will depend on shaping a compelling, responsible American conservatism as an alternative to the Trump temptation. This may or may not happen within the GOP……..
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (328795)

  6. What no one can tell me is what this new party would stand for. Trump and not-Trump is fine for starters, but you have to actually have a center of agreement for a party to succeed.

    Sure, a “Trump” Party would be much as it has been, but what is this principled other party we speak of? Is it status quo ante, even though parts of that have been correctly held up to criticism? After all the primary point of disagreements here is about the man himself and his manifest unworthiness for office.

    Many principled Republicans (conservative is an overused and nearly meaningless word) disapprove of open borders. Not all Republicans approved of unfettered trade with China, even before Trump. The man did not create the wedges that he drove home. There are lots of Republican who didn’t think government should have a role in social issues. Looking at what Congress did over the years, the idea that Republicans had a lock on fiscal frugality is hard to believe.

    So, what in the world is this new party, except one that despises Donald Trump? If that’s all it is, it won’t work.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. Much about the United States’ political future will depend on shaping a compelling, responsible American conservatism

    Guess the “tax cuts and endless wars and that’s about it” don’t have the same cachet they did 15 years ago when Gerson had more stroke within the party. And of course he misses the forest for the trees, as healthy societies don’t have to worry about revolutions, whether it’s Antifa and BLM from the left, or the right-wing blue-collar workers Gerson and his fellow neocons helped hollow out economically over the last 30 years, and the ex-military that they sent to die in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    If Gerson wants to shape a “compelling, responsible American conservatism,” he and the rest of the neocons need to start by looking in the mirror.

    Factory Working Orphan (f916e7)

  8. Teller’s walkout from the Convention pretty much did nothing at all. He supported Bryan in 1896 and joined the Democrats officially soon after. Most of the Silver Republicans rejoined the regular Republicans after Teddy Roosevelt succeeded McKinley.

    What we have here is a total hijacking of the GOP by Trump and his followers. If a new party is formed, it needs to be distinct in policy, not just in personnel, or it will just be a temporary shadow suitable only for posturing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Questions about a new Party: Yes, No or member’s conscience?

    Abortion?
    SSM and gay rights?
    Racial preferences?
    Slavery reparations?

    Amnesty for current illegals?
    Immigration reform allowing greater immigration from Central America?
    H1-B program?

    Protectionist tariffs?
    Reciprocal tariffs?
    Retaliatory tariffs?

    Taxes raised to meet spending?
    Spending lowered to meet taxes?
    Balanced Budget Amendment?
    Spending limitation Amendment?

    Devolution of power to states, cities, people?
    Elimination of Department of Education?
    Elimination, devolution or consolidation of Departments of Energy, Labor, Commerce, Agriculture, HUD?
    Elimination, devolution or consolidation of large regulatory agencies.

    Constitutional Convention?
    Limitations on Commerce Clause, Necessary & Proper and other elastic clauses through Amendment or ruling?
    Amendment to allow veto of federal legislation by 3/4s of states
    Amendment to allow single-house veto of regulations?

    Congressional term limits?
    Judicial term limits?

    Gun registration?
    “Assault weapons” ban?
    Limitations on gun, ammo purchases?
    Red-flag laws?
    National carry permits?

    All these things need to be considered, and many will be the same as the Trump Party. Are enough different that it makes sense? After all Trump can’t live forever.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. Texas GOP fires staffer after he posted video from Capitol riot and spread false conspiracy theories at D.C. pizzeria
    The Republican Party of Texas has fired a staffer after learning about a series of social media posts he made, including one that places him in a crowd of people steps outside the U.S. Capitol last month on the same day that a mob of former President Donald Trump’s supporters stormed the building.
    ……..
    Less than two hours after The Texas Tribune contacted the Texas GOP about (field organizer Kevin Whitt) on Monday afternoon, the party said it had fired him.

    In an interview after the firing, Whitt told the Tribune that the party was “canceling conservatives, obviously.” He said he never got any indication his job was in jeopardy until the party emailed him Monday afternoon to tell him he was fired.
    …….
    On Jan. 7, the day after the Capitol siege, Whitt posted a video on Instagram showing a crowd of people a short distance outside a Capitol entrance, alarms going off in the background. While Whitt is not shown in the video, he can be heard speaking behind the camera.
    …….
    Another video on his Whitt’s social media accounts, dated mid-December, shows him confronting a woman inside the Comet Ping Pong pizzeria in Washington, D.C., which has been at the center of the debunked Pizzagate conspiracy theory. ….

    In the video, Whitt asks the woman how she feels about working “in a restaurant that is known for pedophilia.” The woman asks Whitt to leave, and he says she can call the cops and that he will not leave.

    Whitt then shouts into the restaurant: “Y’all are abusing children. You are pedophiles. Do not eat here. All of y’all should leave. They are serving up dead kids. This place is known … for a restaurant that is sex trafficking children.”

    Whitt told the Tribune that he “100% believe[s] that Pizzagate is real.” Before the video began, Whitt said he had been dining with friends at the restaurant and was heading to the bathroom, recording artwork on the walls and got into a confrontation with the woman about whether he was allowed to record.

    Both the videos from the Capitol riot and the pizzeria disappeared from Whitt’s social media accounts after the Tribune contacted him about them.
    ………
    ……… In a mid-December Facebook post, Whitt called the Proud Boys an “amazing” group of men and said there may be a “few bad apples that do dumb stuff,” but that was to be expected when people organize themselves.
    ………
    I’m stunned. He seems to be just the sort of person the Texas GOP wants to attract. Sounds like a PR firing.

    Rip Murdock (328795)

  11. Teller’s walkout from the Convention pretty much did nothing at all. He supported Bryan in 1896 and joined the Democrats officially soon after. Most of the Silver Republicans rejoined the regular Republicans after Teddy Roosevelt succeeded McKinley.

    Vance’s citation of Teller is rather ironic, because he clearly doesn’t realize how radical politics in Colorado was during that period. By the time the Silver Republicans formed, the state had elected an actual Populist Party governor, Davis Waite, in 1892, and saw so many labor strikes and riots during the 90s and into the 1900s that the Ku Klux Klan ended up becoming a major political force in the 1920s in response to the decades of upheaval. The Silver Republicans were populist in nature; defectors like Teller, along with former Populists whose disenchantment with the political status quo of the time led to the rise of the party in Colorado in the first place, played a significant role in the Democrats morphing into the socialist-friendly, progressive, New Deal party that it became in the 1930s.

    It’s all well and good to cite Teller as an example of a principled Republican splitting from the party, but Vance does himself no favors by ignoring the political environment in which that took place. It’s really nothing more than an argument from authority.

    Factory Working Orphan (f916e7)

  12. Marjorie taylor green is the future of the republican party. Liz cheney is the past! Minority leader mccarthy who wants to be majority leader in 2022 knows this.

    asset (6b2db1)

  13. Marjorie Taylor Greene will have a future all right–as a hiss and a byword.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  14. The GOP base wants Trump and MTG. They want magical thinking, insane conspiracy theories, and passionate culture war positions on social media.

    They want someone to tell them that their political opponents aren’t just wrong, they’re evil, and that all their policy goals will be accomplished once all the cucks are removed from the GOP. They want their candidates to flip the bird at ‘elites’ that look down on them.

    They want to believe that their views are widely shared and that there’s no way people who espouse those views could lose a fair election so any power in the hands of their opponents is illegitimate.

    MTG isn’t talking about policy, she’s talking about tribe.

    Time123 (36651d)

  15. Much about the United States’ political future will depend on shaping a compelling, responsible American conservatism

    Guess the “tax cuts and endless wars and that’s about it” don’t have the same cachet they did 15 years ago when Gerson had more stroke within the party. And of course he misses the forest for the trees, as healthy societies don’t have to worry about revolutions, whether it’s Antifa and BLM from the left, or the right-wing blue-collar workers Gerson and his fellow neocons helped hollow out economically over the last 30 years, and the ex-military that they sent to die in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    If Gerson wants to shape a “compelling, responsible American conservatism,” he and the rest of the neocons need to start by looking in the mirror.

    Factory Working Orphan (f916e7) — 2/1/2021 @ 9:48 pm

    You don’t comment much but when you do I find what you have to say interesting.

    Time123 (36651d)

  16. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/1/2021 @ 10:23 pm

    The establishment R’s won’t 3rd party because they’re not sure there are enough of them. It’d be easier if they switched sides and joined the D’s but they’d be replaced by a more orthodox D in the next election. There’s not much room for centrist or right of center D’s. In either scenario they also wouldn’t be able to make the sweet graft money as the loyal opposition.

    The test is whether the establishment R’s are strong enough to boot the new crowd. If they’re only strong enough to hold ground then they’ve lost. Time is not on their side.

    frosty (f27e97)

  17. Frosty, I’d make the following change to your comment at 16 The test is whether the establishment R’s are strong enough to boot the new crowd or get more like minded candidates elected in primaries. If they’re only strong enough to hold ground then they’ve lost. Time is not on their side.

    But otherwise I completely agree with you.

    Time123 (80b471)

  18. Rip Murdock (328795) — 2/2/2021 @ 7:36 am

    The article is light on details.

    The agents were shot while serving a warrant in a child exploitation case

    This sounds like interstate child sex trafficking. But those people don’t usually

    multiple shots were fired, and a person barricaded themselves inside the apartment

    Hopefully, the FBI agents recover. The TV version of getting shot on the job and being back at work for the next episode isn’t really a thing.

    You posted it in the R civil war thread. Do you think this was John Weaver and he didn’t want to go down without a fight? Let’s also hope no pizza was involved in any way.

    frosty (f27e97)

  19. The establishment R’s won’t 3rd party because they’re not sure there are enough of them.

    It’s not that there aren’t enough of them, it’s whether there is enough suppory among the electorate. Neither of the two parties is serving the center any longer. It’s now Left-authoritarian vs Right-Authoritarian. A party that was broadly centrist would have a lot of support.

    Both parties have become captive of their loudest members. Biden’s centrism is merely the beard behind which the Left operates and it’s not much of a beard. Ordering the military to accept transgender soldiers is a telling move, thoroughly disrespecting military culture in order to keep a fringe coalition partner on board.

    America is tired of this particular binary choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. reminding readers that it’s only been for the last half-century that Americans have remained settled on two major political parties.

    More like a century and a half – in fact longer – about a century and two thirds.

    It’s important that the non-Trump part be the bigger faction. In terms of voters at least. This can happen if as little as one third of current officeholders is no Trump. You need also some existing state parties to change their national affiliation.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b302e)

  21. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/1/2021 @ 10:23 pm

    No questions about character? Or about loyalty to Trump? Because that’s what this fracture is all about.
    It’s less about issues and more about morality and unhitching from a singular contemptible human being. The question, then, is whether that’s enough to break off to form a new traditional conservative party that rejects Trump’s nationalism-populism-racism-xenophobia. To me, yes, because we’re not just talking about Trump or Greene and such, we’re talking about all the party members who wedded themselves to Trump and who intend to keep his crap legacy going.
    Right now, it looks like a majority of the GOP won’t unhitch and won’t turn their backs on the guy. My only choice is try to marginalize the cancerous Trumpists while I’m in the party until they’re marginalized, or join that 3rd party if/when something viable comes along.
    Another thing, Rip’s link to Fabrizio is meaningful in this sense. It confirms previous post-election polling. There were no secrets about the result. Alyssa Farah was one of those who saw that polling, and she quit instead of being told to spin Trump’s lies about a “stolen” election.

    Fossett: Do you think that anyone had that power, that ability to influence, or to tell Trump that the election fraud talk was going too far?

    Farah: I know there were a number of people who conveyed that early on. But I do think that it took on a life of its own. And early on, I truly believe the president knew—when I was still in the White House in late November, he knew that he had lost. And it was something that was almost like tacitly acknowledged, like we’re going to make this painful, but we know what happened. And then, something turned. And I don’t know if it was the wrong advisers getting to him with bad information or what.
    […]
    And one thing I would just note: The results of the election almost perfectly aligned with our internal polling. So this notion that everyone’s kind of surprised and it turned out so different than we were expecting—I mean, from what I was read into, we always knew Pennsylvania was going to be a huge uphill battle, as was Arizona. North Carolina would be a squeaker. We’d win Florida.

    Georgia was the one that we just did not adequately have a read on, on how close that would be. But none of this should have come as a surprise to anyone who was following the data.

    Trump knew that he lost, yet he perpetuated his Big Lie regardless. This has to be part of the impeachment managers’ case.

    Paul Montagu (89207d)

  22. The establishment R’s won’t 3rd party because they’re not sure there are enough of them.

    It’s not that there aren’t enough of them, it’s whether there is enough suppory among the electorate. Neither of the two parties is serving the center any longer. It’s now Left-authoritarian vs Right-Authoritarian. A party that was broadly centrist would have a lot of support.

    Both parties have become captive of their loudest members. Biden’s centrism is merely the beard behind which the Left operates and it’s not much of a beard. Ordering the military to accept transgender soldiers is a telling move, thoroughly disrespecting military culture in order to keep a fringe coalition partner on board.

    America is tired of this particular binary choice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/2/2021 @ 8:17 am

    You might need to re-calibrate where you think the center is. Rescinding Trump’s EO was a move back to the center.

    WASHINGTON, D.C. — As President Donald Trump’s ban on most transgender military servicemembers continues to face legal challenges, 71% of Americans support allowing openly transgender men and women to serve in the military.

    Time123 (36651d)

  23. No questions about character? Or about loyalty to Trump? Because that’s what this fracture is all about.

    No, because 1) it is assumed, and 2) a party based on hostility to an individual isn’t a party, it’s a resentment.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. The establishment Rs are less likely to third party than the Rothschilds are likely to vaporize Mar-a-Lago with their space lasers.

    I mean, like, seriously, dude? Who comes up with this stuff?

    What they’re going to do is what Kinzinger and Rand Paul are respectively doing. Where having one’s lips attached to Trump’s behind is a liability they’ll pull away, where it’s an asset they’ll stay glued, and both will use the vast party machinery, and the brand — the GOP brand! — to the fullest possible advantage.

    nk (1d9030)

  25. Looks like 2 FBI agents were killed in that Sunrise raid

    frosty (f27e97)

  26. You might need to re-calibrate where you think the center is.

    Perhaps. It’s not a matter of acceptance as individuals though, but about fitting into military culture. I just cannot see it working in the Marines, for example. Maybe the Air Force. Trump’s EO was welcomed by the military command, iirc.

    The point, though, is that neither party addresses the center, and probably haven’t since the nineties. There is a HUGE cap between the party platforms. It’s like abortion, where two absolute positions consume all the air (and one is favored by the courts), but 60% of the electorate wants a middle ground solution.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. nk, do you really think that the two parties today have anything of interest to centrists? Or do you just think that there are no centrists left?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/2/2021 @ 8:38 am

    The Trumpist GOP is the Resentment Party, Kevin. Also the Grievance Party and Tribal Party. He made the party gravitate around him. A new conservative party would take it back to the issues of the day instead of making it about a charismatic douchebag.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  29. You might need to re-calibrate where you think the center is.

    Perhaps. It’s not a matter of acceptance as individuals though, but about fitting into military culture. I just cannot see it working in the Marines, for example. Maybe the Air Force. Trump’s EO was welcomed by the military command, iirc.

    The point, though, is that neither party addresses the center, and probably haven’t since the nineties. There is a HUGE cap between the party platforms. It’s like abortion, where two absolute positions consume all the air (and one is favored by the courts), but 60% of the electorate wants a middle ground solution.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/2/2021 @ 8:50 am

    Again, 78% of respondents support the same thing biden just did. How ‘centrist’ does he need to be? 85% 90%?

    Time123 (36651d)

  30. nk, do you really think that the two parties today have anything of interest to centrists? Or do you just think that there are no centrists left?

    It doesn’t matter what I think. None of the Hadley Lamars and William J. Le Petomanes are going to get off the GOP bus in the middle of the (political) jungle and hope to catch another one to their phoney-baloney jobs.

    nk (1d9030)

  31. That’s Headley!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. Paul,

    You seem to think that your resentments, being justified, are fundamentally different. My point is that a party split that is only based on dislike of a person is nothing to base a party on. The anti-Jacksonians didn’t last.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/2/2021 @ 8:57 am

    the Resentment Party, Kevin. Also the Grievance Party and Tribal Party

    At best it’s a resentment/grievance/tribal party but these claims just seem like projection. The D’s mastered all of those things a long time ago so this isn’t much of a moral argument. Resentment/grievance/tribalism is the name of the game now.

    What’s going to be interesting is when the sheep the D’s have been herding and the sheep the R’s have been herding realize the real issue is the shepherds. Or more likely when the sheepdogs in each group realize that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  34. My point is that a party split that is only based on dislike of a person is nothing to base a party on.

    I think you’ve got it backwards, Kevin. The GOP as it stands is based on the adoration of a singular person, which is nothing to base a party on.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  35. Perhaps if other members of the Republican Party can find the courage to effectively shut down Greene’s craziness…

    Like they shutdown Newt’s craziness. LOLOLOL

    Always amusing when recently elected senators only at risk once every six years crack wise about House members with tails up for grabs every two years. The Turtle and Pierre Delecto- both party losers- ain’t no Chuck Yeagers; their GOP has swopped ends on ’em and be augering in. Hit the silk, fellas– or crash and burn with past glory.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. 33. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/2/2021 @ 9:15 am

    The anti-Jacksonians didn’t last.

    Abraham Lincoln was an anti-Jackonian. He became one after reading alot of newspapers in 1827.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_career_of_Abraham_Lincoln

    In March 1832 Lincoln announced his candidacy in a written article that appeared in the Sangamo Journal, which was published in Springfield. While Lincoln admired Henry Clay and his American System, the national political climate was undergoing a change and local Illinois issues were the primary political concerns of the election. Lincoln opposed the development of a local railroad project, but supported improvements in the Sangamon River that would increase its navigability. Although the two-party political system that pitted Democrats against Whigs had not yet formed, Lincoln would become one of the leading Whigs in the state legislature within the next few years…

    The news of his true political beliefs did not reach Washington:

    …With the closure of the Lincoln-Berry store, Lincoln was again unemployed and would soon have to leave New Salem.

    However, in May 1833, with the assistance of friends interested in keeping him in New Salem, Lincoln secured an appointment from President Andrew Jackson as the postmaster of New Salem, a position he kept for three years. During this time, Lincoln earned between $150 and $175 as postmaster, hardly enough to be considered a full-time source of income. Another friend helped Lincoln obtain an appointment as an assistant to county surveyor John Calhoun, a Democratic political appointee. Lincoln had no experience at surveying, but he relied on borrowed copies of two works and was able to teach himself the practical application of surveying techniques as well as the trigonometric basis of the process. His income proved sufficient to meet his day-to-day expenses, but the notes from his partnership with Berry were coming due…

    Sammy Finkelman (5b302e)

  37. In 1834 Lincoln’s decision to run for the state legislature for a second time was strongly influenced by his need to satisfy his debts, what he jokingly referred to as his “national debt”, and the additional income that would come from a legislative salary. By this time Lincoln was a member of the Whig party. His campaign strategy excluded a discussion of the national issues and concentrated on traveling throughout the district and greeting voters. The district’s leading Whig candidate was Springfield attorney John Todd Stuart, whom Lincoln knew from his militia service during the Black Hawk War. Local Democrats, who feared Stuart more than Lincoln, offered to withdraw two of their candidates from the field of thirteen, where only the top four vote-getters would be elected, to support Lincoln. Stuart, who was confident of his own victory, told Lincoln to go ahead and accept the Democrats’ endorsement. On August 4 Lincoln polled 1,376 votes, the second highest number of votes in the race, and won one of the four seats in the election, as did Stuart.[108] Lincoln was reelected to the state legislature in 1836, 1838, and 1840.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b302e)

  38. “…McConnell (R-Ky.) on Monday blasted Georgia GOP Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s embrace of “loony lies and conspiracy theories” as a “cancer for the Republican Party.”

    So sez Tumor The Turtle.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. You might need to re-calibrate where you think the center is. Rescinding Trump’s EO was a move back to the center.

    WASHINGTON, D.C. — As President Donald Trump’s ban on most transgender military servicemembers continues to face legal challenges, 71% of Americans support allowing openly transgender men and women to serve in the military.

    Time123 (36651d) — 2/2/2021 @ 8:26 am

    Nonsense push poll done for the feelz goods by those who don’t have a clue of the discipline required to serve. Mentally ill people don’t last for a reason.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  40. It’s not politically correct to say so, but there is a very high overlap for suicide and transgender. there are good reasons for the way the Army was when I served, all units I was in were 100% male, and homosexual conduct was actually unlawful then (don’t ask don’t tell). It eliminated a lot of potential internal problems. It did so in an inherently sexist, discriminatory way, but I believe the military was more lethal and effective with no legal chance of romance in the unit, no chance of crushes and preferences, none of the nonsense I’ve seen in other fields. I presented a paper in college about this, and my theory that we could have all women combat units, all men combat units, with shared HQ units. This was not appreciated by my professors!

    I also worry about the simple durability of women. Sounds sexist, but even a very fit female athelete, stronger than me, is much more likely to be injured. They did a test in my brigage (field artillery, where heavy items were moved by hand) and the injury rate was the problem, not the PT scores. I worry with transgender, with therapies and hormones, it really does bring up some complicated concerns.

    All in all I think the military is one of those things that should be an exception to the normal rules. It would be ineffective in plenty of workplaces to establish what is normal and demand everyone should meet that standard, for mental health, for physical health, for character, language perhaps. For a unit that should be absolutely as effective as possible in a war, I think it becomes an effective ideal.

    Either way, whether we have transgender soldiers should be a question about whether the military is more effective with or without. It should not be an issue of social justice or civil rights. They should study that issue and the decision should be without emotion. Many times in the Army they talked about Truman and integrating by race. Of course, the Army was stronger with racially integrated units, provided they trained together and really were a unit. It meant wider experiences and more power to solve problems. I think that argument can be made for sexual integration, but it needs to be made dispassionately. Instead we’re all shaming eachother for being ‘wrong’. This is the last line of defense for our people, so why are we doing this to ourselves?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  41. “Our big tent is not large enough to both accommodate conservatives and kooks.”
    –Mitt Romney, Groundhog Day, 2021

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  42. @42. Kooks… and cultists, too– or so he ‘believes’…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlbDHejQFV4

    ‘… and I believe, that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America…”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. … and I believe, that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America…”

    If they did it while in Egypt, it’s not at all unlikely. The ancient Egyptians were renowned sailors, the best of that era.

    nk (1d9030)

  44. More turmoil…

    There’s a conspiracy theory called Frazzledrip. Even for QAnon types, it’s pretty fringe, which is saying something. Recall that the central belief in Q-world is that there’s a secret cabal of Satan-worshiping, sex-trafficking pedophiles running the government.

    Frazzledrip is worse. It is the name of an imagined video of a young girl on Huma Abedin’s laptop in a folder labeled “life insurance.” Abedin, the ex-wife of former Rep. Anthony Weiner, was an aide to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

    According to Vice, the nonexistent video shows Clinton filleting off the young girl’s face. The two women take turns wearing the girl’s face as a mask to terrify the child so blood is suffused with adrenochrome. They drink her blood as part of a satanic ritual.

    Oh, Frazzledrip also believes Clinton murdered New York City police officers who saw the video and covered up their deaths as suicides.

    Now, you don’t have to be a Clinton fan — I’m certainly not — to recognize this garbage as evil and insane. Marjorie Taylor Greene, the QAnon-friendly Republican representative from Georgia, disagrees. She endorsed the theory on her Facebook page in 2018.

    This is the gal who Trump had a conversation with and reportedly gave her a big thumbs up.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  45. DCSCA is worried about Mitt’s religion. I’m with Paul. the Trump religion is a lot scarier, a lot stupider, and does not produce nice, happy people the way a lot of conventional religions do.

    In fact, Trump’s religion seems to be corrosive to the hearts and peace of a lot of Americans.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  46. @44. “… and I believe, that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people…”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. the Trump religion is a lot scarier

    Shorter: Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  48. Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism.
    — Vladimir Lenin, 1870-1924

    nk (1d9030)

  49. @46. “… and I believe, that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri…”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  50. God is on your side? Is He a Conservative? The Devil’s on my side, he’s a good Communist.
    — Joseph Stalin, 1879-1953, Soviet leader
    (to Churchill)

    nk (1d9030)

  51. @49. Red blooded: fruit of the loins, Ron Reagan, is an atheist. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  52. Hollywood conservative comes out of closet:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsZPWsVNTqo

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  53. One thing that Reagan has in common with Trump is an expressed view that he won a massive landslide re-election. Another is that he is not the president today!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  54. I think you’ve got it backwards, Kevin. The GOP as it stands is based on the adoration of a singular person, which is nothing to base a party on.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/2/2021 @ 10:03 am

    It’s telling that the more prolific commenters on here completely ignored Kevin’s quite comprehensive list of legitimate policy issues, ones that remain relevant despite changing times and attitudes amongst the populace towards them, and avoided the very real dilemma he presented, simply to indulge in deflection and/or disengagement. Granted, several of these are not “yes or no” type issues, or even simply “personal conscience” ones. However, a significant portion of them are, and it shouldn’t be that difficult for patrons of a politically conservative blog to identify the ones they support and the ones they don’t. Particularly when the OP cited an article that discussed the temporary split of a faction of the GOP in 1896 over one very specific argument between the Silverites and the Goldbugs, in an era where populism had gained steam as a political force.

    It’s a lot easier to use Trump as a scapegoat and dismiss his supporters as cultists than to acknowledge that his supporters might have real, actual grievances with the so-called “conservative movement” that predate Trump, and latched on to him specifically because they felt the party’s leaders weren’t taking those concerns seriously. Does anyone really think it’s a coincidence that he literally announced his candidacy the very next day after Jeb Bush did? Show Kevin’s list to an average Trump voter, ask them which of those issues they supported, or didn’t, or had mixed feelings on, and they’ll likely provide an answer. Ask them which ones they think the GOP sold them out on, and they’ll definitely point those out, too.

    That’s how political movements have been built in this country since the Whigs formed in response to the Jackson presidency. It’s how the two major parties have evolved since the Civil War, in some cases doing a complete 180 and taking the opposite stance on certain issues after a couple of generations. The neocon wing doesn’t like to acknowledge it, but Goldwater, Reagan, the Tea Party–these ALL began as populist surges within the GOP against what the base felt was a centrist, far-too-accommodating party establishment. That these individuals all had a better grasp of policy than Trump is hardly the point. Their support started from the bottom of the party, not from the top, just like Trump’s. If the party’s leaders want to remain nothing more than controlled opposition, they’ll continue to dismiss it rather than harness it in a positive direction.

    So Kevin’s point still stands–the anti-populist faction of the GOP need to take a clear, hard stand on just what issues they want the party to support, find leaders that will aggressively defend that platform, regardless of what the media, the entertainment complex, or academia says about them, and convince the base that this platform will win elections. If they aren’t willing to do even a simple intellectual exercise like Kevin’s list, then they’ll need to make a choice like the Silver Republicans did to either meld back into the GOP in whatever form it takes, or switch over to the Democrats. Opaque appeals to broad, undefined generalizations aren’t going to cut it right now.

    Factory Working Orphan (f916e7)

  55. It’s telling that the more prolific commenters on here completely ignored Kevin’s quite comprehensive list of legitimate policy issues,

    Well it’s a long list.

    My priority has usually been fiscal restraint. People scoff at the idea of a balanced budget, but that’s what I want. Along with that, obviously less government, less picking winners, less dependency. I did want tall walls and wide gates for immigration, a foreign policy that worked from admin to admin.

    It’s a lot easier to use Trump as a scapegoat and dismiss his supporters as cultists than to acknowledge that his supporters might have real, actual grievances with the so-called “conservative movement” that predate Trump, and latched on to him specifically because they felt the party’s leaders weren’t taking those concerns seriously.

    i think you’re right. After all, the GOP has been pretty bad at the things I supported it for. But I’m not sure if it’s all about good policy. Trump really got his boost with the birther stuff. There’s a lot of irrational hate about him. there’s also a rejection of politics as usual. Conservatives see cities with rampant crime and they want law and order.

    But any chance of the GOP taking much of anything seriously these days seems minimal. How can evangelicals who want huge checks but no vaccines meet minds with people like me? So far, there’s only been one argument: the democrats are scary. They do the same thing, insist every conservative is a white supremacist insurrectionist, super scary. It shouldn’t be like that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  56. I think you’ve got it backwards, Kevin. The GOP as it stands is based on the adoration of a singular person, which is nothing to base a party on.

    And that “one guy”?!”!?:

    “Pop” Hugh Lisism.

    Helluva fella; been makin’ hizself known and at home for 35-40 years.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. The real cancer for the Republican Party is weak Republicans who only know how to lose gracefully.

    Between 2009 and 2015, before Donald Trump arrived to “save” the party, Republicans gained over 1000 seats in state legislatures, governors’ mansions and congress.

    The idea that Republicans needed Trump to win elections is another whopper that the President Reject’s cult just loves to repeat to each other.

    Dave (1bb933)

  58. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/1/2021 @ 10:01 pm

    What we have here is a total hijacking of the GOP by Trump and his followers. If a new party is formed, it needs to be distinct in policy, not just in personnel, or it will just be a temporary shadow suitable only for posturing.

    Or less.

    It would have to not only abandon Trump, but also some of his issues, while also opposing (at least the specifics) of a lot of what Democrats are for, Which is easy, but it must be principled. It could be place for anything even a little bit innovative. It culd be a wide tent, but each candidate in it, must be distinctive.

    Right now the Republican Party is associated with several distinctly minority positions, although the most important one is pure politics – the trustworthiness and value of Donald Trump. But it is not the only one.

    Yes, No or member’s conscience?

    A members’s conscience on everything. That would be its distinctive feature. Some ideas, like a balanced budget amendment, will be acknowledged hopeless causes with very little support.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b302e)

  59. NJRob @40 and Dustin @41,

    The poll is by gallup and appears to be well done. It’s not a push poll and the sample size is large. It doesn’t say, and I wasn’t trying to say, that allowing Transgender people to serve is a good military strategy. It says that the majority of respondents (78%) support doing so. Kevin had asserted that Biden’s actions in reversing Trump’s ban was a bone to the far left. I’m showing data that it’s broadly popular and Kevin’s opinion of what is far left for this issue is incorrect.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  60. The Conservative Party has to be the party of: (1) trade liberalization, (2) smart immigration, (3) tax policy that makes the U.S. an attractive destination for investment and that promotes business expansion during cyclical slowdowns, (4) sensible business regulation, (5) a strong but cautious foreign policy that builds and fosters coalitions, (6) de-centralized welfare, education, and social programs to the maximum extent that is possible and practical, (7) originalist jurists, (8) fiscal discipline (including military spending and tax policy), (9) individual liberty, personal responsibility, and opportunity, (10) commitment to efficiency, consolidation, and modernization of government services, (11) respect for the Constitution, Constitutional norms,the rule of law, the vote, and key institutions of our democracy, and (12) leaders of character, integrity, intelligence, experience, and discipline.

    My biggest complaints right now with the GOP are with (12), (11), (8), (1) and (2) and (5) (to some degree) and its relative inability to articulate a strategy to move incrementally forward on many of the others. The GOP is being held hostage to the whims of Trump and his enablers….rather than commitment to principle. A new party seems like an awesome undertaking, given the infrastructure required and the communication barriers to getting the message out effectively. In thinking about it, since most Republicans would agree with 80% of my list, the better strategy is to create a wing of the GOP that works to peal off as many elected officials and voters as possible….with the goal to marginalize and isolate the extremists. Principles will out live personality….now is the challenge to find those champions to lead the effort….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  61. According to Politico the house GOP caucus doesn’t want to have to choose between publicly condemning MTG’s garbage conspiracy theories and making themselves look like kooks by supporting her. This is what a host of safe gerrymandered districts get’s you. A class of representatives that know they’ll lose a primary if they don’t support an anti-sematic trash bag. Because if they don’t vote for her the angrier members of their base will vote them out in favor of someone more willing to loudly tell entertaining lies that make them feel good.

    MORE ON THAT SCOOP …

    INSIDE MCCARTHY’S TENTATIVE PLAN TO DEAL WITH GREENE: During a two-hour meeting Tuesday night with Greene, McCarthy explained to the QAnon supporter that her controversial past statements were coming to a head. The problem, McCarthy told her: Democrats are threatening to force a vote to remove her from her committees — and that puts the entire GOP Conference in a bad spot. McCarthy tried to give Greene options, according to a person familiar with their talk: She could denounce QAnon and apologize publicly for espousing hurtful conspiracy theories and endorsing violence on Democrats. She could remove herself from the panel to spare her colleagues a vote on the matter. Or, she could face removal from her own GOP peers.

    It must not have gone as well as McCarthy hoped, because he then called a late-night meeting with the panel that designates committee assignments to discuss removing Greene. According to our sources, the room agreed that a House vote on this issue would be catastrophic politically for their members who are already angry at being associated with Greene’s crazy statements. That must be avoided, they concurred.

    McCarthy told the room he would speak with House Majority Leader STENY HOYER to try to broker a deal. McCarthy would offer to remove Greene from one committee — Education and Labor — if Democrats back off a House floor vote to remove her from both. (Greene also sits on the Budget Committee.)

    It is unclear whether Hoyer will go for this. The pressure on Democratic leaders to do something drastic to punish Greene is only increasing. McCarthy’s members also talked about re-appointing Greene to another committee Tuesday night, but that will never fly with Democrats.

    It’s important to note the plans could all change if Greene apologizes or removes herself, or if Democrats refuse to back off their threatened vote. But Republicans in the room complained about how bad a precedent Democrats dictating GOP committee assignments sets — and also expressed worry about Democrats making Greene a martyr with the Republican base when they just want her to go away.

    Kevin and Factory Worker Orphan, this is the problem. The debate isn’t about policies. It’s about respect and the culture war. MTG doesn’t have any unique policy goals or visions for the country.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  62. Greene is a nutjob, but she is an elected Congressperson. Unless she calls for the violent overthrow of the government, I don’t see a basis for ejecting her from Congress, or even stripping her of committee assignments. I would suggest to the Democrats that this is not a Rubicon they want to cross as they have several members with despicable views. Karma is a heartless b*tch.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. MTG doesn’t have any unique policy goals or visions for the country.

    So, she should imitate The S

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. MTG doesn’t have any unique policy goals or visions for the country.

    oops.

    So she should imitate the Squad and come up with some liberty-destroying platform? I’m not sure how this gives one legitimacy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  65. The poll is by gallup and appears to be well done. It’s not a push poll and the sample size is large. It doesn’t say, and I wasn’t trying to say, that allowing Transgender people to serve is a good military strategy. It says that the majority of respondents (78%) support doing so. Kevin had asserted that Biden’s actions in reversing Trump’s ban was a bone to the far left. I’m showing data that it’s broadly popular and Kevin’s opinion of what is far left for this issue is incorrect.

    Time123 (d1bf33) — 2/3/2021 @ 5:20 am

    Yeah I think it’s easy to be skeptical of polls after 2016’s election, but they aren’t generally wildly wildly off. and of course it seems really crappy to tell someone they can’t serve their country and we only recently even let people serve when gay. The notion we should roll back like I wish it were is pretty unpopular. My argument isn’t really relying on popularity though.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  66. I think you’ve got it backwards, Kevin. The GOP as it stands is based on the adoration of a singular person, which is nothing to base a party on.

    Hardly. It is based on agreement on a list of policies that changed the direction of the party. You confuse their lack or antipathy toward Trump with adoration. One of the things that happens at the far ends of a political spectrum.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. I think they should take the deal, as long as she agrees to quit endorsing nutball conspiracy theories that involve killing or imprisoning her new colleagues or other people for reasons of legally voting in ways she dislikes. It looks like collegiality and McCarthy owes them one for not making him choose to look like an insane nutjob himself or like he’s throwing the party under the bus.

    Nic (896fdf)

  68. BTW, FWO agrees with me on the necessity of a rival center-right (or even straight center) party differentiating itself from the current GOP. We differ on which of the two we would join.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. MTG doesn’t have any unique policy goals or visions for the country.

    I think espousing a belief that the US is run by a group of Satanic child cannibals and her goals is to bring them down by whatever means necessary.

    I’d say that is a pretty unique vision for/of our country.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  70. MTG is no crazier than “I was MURDERED”-Ocasio Cortez, or the rest of the Squad, a sideshow to keep people entertained now that the vacuuum felt by the greatest political entertainer is being keenly felt. Matter of fact, if Congress is to be truly representative, we need at least a Squad-sized element of MTGs in Congress at all times.

    “it could be seen as a warning to other MAGA members that enough is enough: the lunatic conspiracy theories, the continued lies about the election having been stolen from Trump, and all the other accompanying nonsense will not be tolerated by the party.”

    I mean, they pretty much demonstrated that when they accepted Biden’s electors with a bare minimum of procedural protest.

    “So maybe the time has indeed come for principled members to stop trying to hold it together put country before party.”

    Such “Principled members” who hold ideological taste as the highest good are not party-leading populists but party-infiltrating parasites, like the neocons before them. Their ideal position is always an unelected or at least an unchallenged one. For instance, our so-called principled

    “As President Donald Trump’s ban on most transgender military servicemembers continues to face legal challenges, 71% of Americans support allowing openly transgender men and women to serve in the military.”

    YOU’RE WRONG BECAUSE A POLL CONDUCTED BY THE OTHER SIDE’S PARTISANS SAID SO! Amazing how for such ‘principled’ people there’s almost never actually a principle to die on in practice, If protecting innocent children from having their bodies irreparably mutilated by an alliance of sex perverts and greedy doctors isn’t the “hill to die on” for “conservatives,” what, exactly, is?

    Spare us the whining about how high-profile people hold icky views you don’t personally like. You represent no shared views, coalitions, or interests but your own.

    Principled Pete (1f2435)

  71. It doesn’t say, and I wasn’t trying to say, that allowing Transgender people to serve is a good military strategy. It says that the majority of respondents (78%) support doing so

    But I *WAS* trying to say it was a bad move for the military. Which is why your poll strikes me as a non sequitur.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. Biden is doing things that make little sense, other than they appease a group of his supporters.

    One can find polls where 80% of people think X, but the truth is that almost none of them have thought much about X, nor do they care a whole lot. This is one of the reasons why using polls to govern is the worst aspect of democracy: government by the uninformed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. Questions from 2025: Should a child who desires a sex change operation need the approval of his/her/its/their parents? After all, the parents might be hopeless bigots, or even violent.

    Yes, I’m being silly here. Or am I?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  74. Steppe Nomad said

    MTG is no crazier than “I was MURDERED”-Ocasio Cortez

    Can you please specifically show her actually saying this?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  75. It’s telling that the more prolific commenters on here completely ignored Kevin’s quite comprehensive list of legitimate policy issues, ones that remain relevant despite changing times and attitudes amongst the populace towards them, and avoided the very real dilemma he presented, simply to indulge in deflection and/or disengagement.

    FTR, I did acknowledge Kevin’s list on policy, FWO, but I departed from him because of the lack of character issues on his list.
    The thing is, any other major candidate would’ve beaten Hillary; the head-to-head polls showed that. Any Republican president would’ve picked conservative judges, put forth a conservative agenda and presided over a strong economy that we inherited from the previous administration.
    The problem is, any other Republican president except Trump would’ve taken the virus seriously, which means that other Republican would’ve polled well enough to win reelection and carry a Senate GOP majority into 2021. It was Trump’s gutter character that brought us to this place, and now his same blight has infested both houses of Congress.
    Also, I haven’t said that the people who voted for Trump are cultists, because that’s misleading. I know a lot of folks who voted for him for non-culty reasons.
    However, it’s undeniable that there a lot of cultists out there, the kind who still believe to this day that the election was “rigged” and/or “stolen”, despite three months of bupkes for serious evidene. That’s a problem in this GOP.
    The infiltration of QAnon nuttery into the GOP–a group endorsed by Trump–is also a problem for this party. It’s the antithesis of what traditional conservatism is all about.
    As for a 3rd party, I don’t believe we need a long checklist of issues to thumbs-up or thumbs-down about. A statement of a dozen or so principles should be enough, if it ever comes to that.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  76. @PP@71 I am confused. Are our soldiers adults who can choose to march into battle and risk and lose their lives for their country? Or children being manipulated by sex perverts? What if a Colonel decides to transition after 25 years of service? Are they still a child being manipulated by sex perverts? Because, I’ve gotta tell you, there wasn’t a whole lot of discussion going on about transgenderism in the mid 90s, which would’ve been the last time my hypothetical colonel would’ve been a child.

    @Kevin@74 If you think you are being silly, you should stop thinking that. That question will, at some point in the not distance future, likely be asked by the courts. And there are still parents out there who think that the best solution to a gay kid, much less a trans one, is to beat the (slur for gay) out of ’em and make ’em a real man.

    Nic (896fdf)

  77. Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 2/3/2021 @ 5:14 pm

    Can you please specifically show her actually saying this?

    Do you think AOC has been telling a lot of truth lately? That story she’s been telling about her harrowing experience in her office is some quality stuff.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. A new conservative party would take it back to the issues of the day instead of making it about a charismatic douchebag.

    ROFLMAOPIP

    “We’re the bright young men;
    Who want to go back to 1910;
    We’re Barry’s Boys

    We’re the kids with a cause;
    Yes a government like grand-ma-mas;
    We’re Barry’s Boys…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgOA47dDjeg

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  79. Here I was saying that the Lincoln Party or Traditional Party can get by with a dozen or so principles, and AJ already laid out a good list.
    BTW, in the interim we could start with a Lincoln Wing or Traditional Wing, not unlike the Freedom Caucus, so at least there would be an established group to lever with.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  80. @61. You mean… a =drumroll= “Contract with America’ ?!?!?!?!

    ROFLMAOPIP

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  81. FTR, I did acknowledge Kevin’s list on policy, FWO, but I departed from him because of the lack of character issues on his list.

    I should point out that I don’t see “character” as a policy goal. Rather it is a necessary (but not sufficient) requirement for leadership.

    I expect some of the policies that Trump brought to the table to outlast him quite a while. He failed to get things enacted not because the policies were rejected, but because he was rejected (and couldn’t govern worth spit).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. You mean… a =drumroll= “Contract with America’ ?!?!?!?!

    It won the GOP 54 House seats, 8 Senate seats and control of both houses.

    “Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!”
    –Lord John Whorfin

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. Liz lives; secret ballot: no balls; no guts.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. Nic (896fdf) — 2/3/2021 @ 5:18 pm

    That question will, at some point in the not distance future, likely be asked by the courts.

    If kids can make this decision do you also think they can consent to sex, enter into contracts, buy tobacco, drink, drive, or vote? Are we going to start rolling back all of the ages and if so to what age?

    Or would we just adjust the age for this?

    frosty (f27e97)

  85. @83. “It’s a Mad House. A MADDDD House!!!!” – George Taylor [Charlton Heston] ‘Planet Of The Apes’ 1968

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. @61: Pretty much a center-libertarian platform. Except for trade liberalization, which is meaningless in a world where one must compete with businesses that use slave labor and are allowed to wantonly destroy the environment, I pretty much agree. Of all the Reagan-era reforms, allowing China open access to our markets was probably the most myopic, substituting ideology for reality.

    Take for example solar panels, a business with sizable intellectual property barriers to entry. Letting China run the table on this for a decade or two, as solar becomes more and more important, while pretending that they have the same costs and constraints as US manufacturers is catastrophically foolish.

    But other than that, it’s a fine list.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. I should have said: “should have sizable intellectual property barriers to entry.” As we know, that’s not a large concern in China.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. @87. Reaganomics?!?! ROFLMAO; fuel the rebellion.

    Love it.

    “Feed me!” – ‘Little Shop Of Horrors’ 1960

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. Turmoil is 61 Republicans who are so Trumpy that they secretly voted against Liz Cheney.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  90. @90. Turmoil is 145 so terrifed they have to vote in secret to avoid a primary challenge.

    No balls. No gut. No principles.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  91. Get ready for the Greene New Deal.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  92. Can you please specifically show her actually saying this?

    Do you think AOC has been telling a lot of truth lately? That story she’s been telling about her harrowing experience in her office is some quality stuff.

    So no, you cannot show her saying that, thanks for admitting it in clear text.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  93. @frosty@85 You will note that I did not say that I thought that they should be able to, only that it wasn’t a silly question. Personally I don’t really think anyone should be getting elective plastic surgery of most kinds until they are over 18 and that people should get extensive therapy before they get gender surgery.

    (also the age of consent for sex does in fact vary state by state, very often it’s under 18, not that that’s here nor there for the purposes of this discussion)

    Nic (896fdf)

  94. Kevin, I acknowledge that trade liberalization can and does cause disruption, when competitive advantage kicks in and we lose manufacturing jobs to China for instance. But economists are not on the fence about the net advantages of more liberal trade. It’s not even close…..even someone like David Autor at MIT who has written extensively about loss of jobs after allowing China into the WTO is adamant about its net benefits. See his article here:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/17/a-simple-explanation-of-why-trump-is-wrong-on-trade-according-to-a-top-expert/

    You are right that China muscled its way into solar panel production, but you miss that the cost of solar panels has fell precipitously in those 2 decades (by a factor of 10) meaning that consumers, businesses and municipalities can now purchase them more cheaply and reap the benefits….cutting their costs on energy and allowing them to then buy other products/services. You also miss that many disputes are taken to WTO and are actually adjudicated in our favor. Is there a lingering IP problem? Probably, but just in the same way there was back in the early 1800’s when an early U.S. was competing against France, Spain, and Great Britain. TPP would have actually helped us with IP, not the other way around. Most of everything Trump said about trade is wrong. Trade deficits are not evil…and are often misleading. Most everything in iPhones is not from China, but since final assembly occurs there, all iPhones are credited to China. Would you rather double the cost for your iPhone….and not buy something else…or save that money? Trade deficits correlate to good economic news and our deficits grew during the Trump years as our economy was cutting unemployment.

    I agree with Autor that maybe you go slower with some of the trade liberalization…and perhaps plan better for job dislocations. It’s also clear that more benefits go to the well educated and more costs to the working poor. But NAFTA has been a net good….by a lot….companies benefit from being able to sell their products and services to more people….and consumers benefit from more variety and lower prices. Trade also seeds cooperation between nations and tamps down the causes of wars. We will probably need to agree to disagree on this one. I’m sticking with the economists and the data…you can stick with Trump on this one….if you like

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  95. I don’t think that Trumpism and the right-populist trend is going away for the foreseeable future in the GOP. The fact that it took a secret ballot to reaffirm Cheney’s position as Conf. chair shows that most of them kowtow to the sentiments of a solid majority of the GOP base. It sucks of course, but that trend isn’t going to disappear overnight. Realistically, if the GOP is to win nationally, they will need to have a delicate coalition between the non-populist and populist wings of the party. Each side will have to compromise a bit. It probably can be done if the Trump supporters are okay with jettisoning the behavior associated with Trumpism, as well as QAnon conspiracies. The GOP would probably have the incentive to do that for 2022, given that they are just shy of a House and Senate majority. Time will tell.

    HCI (92ea66)


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