Patterico's Pontifications

1/29/2021

Republican Group Works To Hold Accountable Party Members Who Bought (And Sold) The Big Lie

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:13 am



[guest post by Dana]

In a topper to this week’s posts looking at the dismal status of today’s Republican party, the Republican Accountability Project remains committed to the GOP. Members are working to restore the party’s reputation and credibility by lending support to Republicans who voted to impeach Trump and to hold accountable elected officials who bought (and sold) the Big Lie:

It is because of this lie—the lie that the election was stolen and fraudulent—that a pro-Trump mob sacked the Capitol and beat police officers attempting to protect the elected officials inside, leaving five people dead and many more injured. Even after the attack, 147 Republicans still voted against certifying the election results. Even today, GOP Senators like Rand Paul will not say that the election was fair and that President Joe Biden was the clear winner.

We cannot allow this lie to persist. It erodes Americans’ faith in the integrity of our electoral system. It creates more opportunity for violence from radical actors who have been told by elected officials that the election was stolen from them. And it threatens the very democracy we all cherish.

We will also defend those who are willing to defend our democracy. When President Trump was impeached by the House, 10 Republicans joined their Democratic colleagues and voted in favor, and five Republican Senators voted to proceed with Trump’s trial in the Senate. We believe that these Senators will do the right thing and vote to convict and disqualify Trump. Many of these principled, courageous Republicans are already facing primary challenges from the Trump wing of the party. We have their backs.

Republicans would like to simply move on. But without accountability there is no clear path forward. That is why we’ve launched the Republican Accountability Project.

With that goal in mind, here is the group’s just-released ad:

And while Rep. Matt Gaetz was in Wyoming trolling Rep. Elizabeth Cheney, fellow Trump-cronies who also pushed the Big Lie were targeted by the the group with billboards demanding their resignations:

Untitled

Other lawmakers targeted by the campaign include House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.), who this week has been criticized by Republicans and Democrats alike for a series of controversies, including past comments calling for violence against Democratic politicians.

The Republican Accountability Project is also going up on the air in each of their targets’ congressional districts and states with television ads tying the lawmakers’ rhetoric with the actions of the pro-Trump rioters behind the breach at the Capitol.

Those ads will air during Fox News’s “Fox & Friends” and “Hannity,” two favorite news programs of conservatives, the group said.

“These representatives and senators helped incite the attack on the Capitol by spreading lies about the election,” said Sarah Longwell, the executive director of the Republican Accountability Project. “They have proved that they are unfit to hold office. They should be nowhere near power.”

If the combined efforts of the Republican Accountability Project and newly-elected members, who stood by their convictions and voted their conscience despite the political risk, can make inroads into a now Trump-dominated GOP, the Republican party may actually locate its missing soul*. Thus, sane members of the party who refuse to be bound to Trump and readily acknowledged the legitimate win of Joe Biden, need not be compelled to form a new political party of their own.

(*h/t Appalled)

–Dana

102 Responses to “Republican Group Works To Hold Accountable Party Members Who Bought (And Sold) The Big Lie”

  1. Hello. I hope to see more committed Republicans work toward wresting the party away from Trump loyalists and restore it to its former solid footing.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. The RAP has my full support.

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  3. …hold accountable elected officials who bought (and sold) the Big Lie…

    ‘Populism’ is doing just that; the ‘Big Lie’ of the past 40 years:

    Reaganomics.

    Hosea 8:7 – “For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  4. Leftist organization lies and attacks Republicans film at 11. In the meantime, insider and crook who altered documents to illegally investigate and try and criminalize associates of Trump gets off with a slap on the wrist.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  5. I don’t think that RAP ad sends the signal you think it does.

    I’d like to see more of it though and I think NeverTrump should send fat checks to RAP for more.

    frosty (f27e97)

  6. Leftist organization lies and attacks Republicans film at 11.

    Ironic, that a group calling out Trump and his enablers Big Lie is “leftist organization lies”.
    Question, Rob. Do you believe the election was “stolen” and, if so, where’s your legitimate evidence of serious fraud?

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  7. @5. Are the letters in that anti-Cruz billboard bigger than one for Trump?

    There’s a lot of The Donald in Tedtoo. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  8. Leftist organization run by Lincoln Project leftists who said their goal last November was to defeat every Republican. They want to burn it down just like AOC and Omar desire.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  9. President Plagiarist helicoptering to Walter Reed.

    Who had 9 days in the office pool? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  10. Question, Rob. Do you believe the election was “stolen” and, if so, where’s your legitimate evidence of serious fraud?

    I’m also curious to know your answer.

    Dana (fd537d)

  11. Leftist organization run by Lincoln Project leftists who said their goal last November was to defeat every Republican. They want to burn it down just like AOC and Omar desire.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/29/2021 @ 10:55 am

    If we burn down the republican party who will prevent the space lasers from burning down our forests or keep the Rothchilds from their canable/pedo/statanic rituals. Oh no. Think of the children.

    Time123 (653992)

  12. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/29/2021 @ 10:57 am

    Is it going to be a weekend at Joe’s?

    frosty (f27e97)

  13. I’m open to evidence. I’ve seen plenty of fraud, not enough to change the election. I also know if Trump won in the way Biden did, we’d be seeing plenty of media investigations. Bellwether districts suddenly didn’t matter. The level of ballots that are rejected due to incomplete or incorrect information dropped to near zero.

    Still waiting for NeverTrump and their leftist compadres to apologize for their 4 year witch hunt screaming that Russia stole the election when it was cooked up by Hillary and her team to distract from her own criminal behavior.

    That’s for you Dana. I don’t give a darn what Paul wants. I ignore him by choice.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  14. Time123,

    still waiting for Omar to face the penalty for her crimes and be removed from office. I’ll be waiting forever just like I will for Clinesmith and his team to face jail time for their corrupt actions.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  15. The same media that went digging through Governor Palin’s trash will ignore the mountains of corruption on the side of the left. Look at how they cover for Andrew Cuomo and his deliberate murder of those living in nursing homes.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  16. Time123 (653992) — 1/29/2021 @ 11:00 am

    If we burn down the republican party who will prevent the space lasers from burning down our forests or keep the Rothchilds from their canable/pedo/statanic rituals. Oh no. Think of the children.

    It’s important to keep these stories straight. The people who believe the space laser/rothchild story don’t believe the R’s are doing much to prevent that so burning it down won’t matter.

    frosty (f27e97)

  17. Republicans getting mowed down on a softball field seems so long ago. Almost quaint, even.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  18. Look at how they cover for Andrew Cuomo and his deliberate murder of those living in nursing homes.

    They don’t just cover for him – they bestow him with an Emmy.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  19. @12. Given hs plethora of EOs this week, he could have at least driven over in an electric car. Those whirlybirds… so much pollution! 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  20. “I’ve been to Walter Reed a lot. I spent almost six months there as a patient.” – President Plagiarist, 1/29/21.

    Swell.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  21. I’m open to evidence. I’ve seen plenty of fraud, not enough to change the election. I also know if Trump won in the way Biden did, we’d be seeing plenty of media investigations. Bellwether districts suddenly didn’t matter. The level of ballots that are rejected due to incomplete or incorrect information dropped to near zero.

    Can i ask what plenty means? I know of enough fraud to account for a few votes, but that’s it. I can’t tell if you’re saying it was almost decided by fraud or if your saying it was imperfect to the level they usually are.

    Also, since you say you’re open to evidence; GA did a check off absentee ballots in Cobb county and found 10 that were questionable. Most were sloppy handwriting. One was an honest mistake, and I think one couple signed each other’s ballot. the other 15K were fine. That’s pretty strong evidence that we didn’t have a large number of fraudulent absentee ballots and that your concern has an answer.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  22. Time123,

    still waiting for Omar to face the penalty for her crimes and be removed from office. I’ll be waiting forever just like I will for Clinesmith and his team to face jail time for their corrupt actions.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/29/2021 @ 11:03 am

    AFAIK Clinesmith didn’t have a team, he wasn’t leader he was an individual contributor. Durham, picked by Trump and Barr and appointed as Special Council lead the prosecution. They let him plead to charges where probation was an real possibility. I assume they don’t share your opinion of the seriousness of his punishment. I wish they did. I’d like to see precedent that when prosecutors (or police) falsify evidence they serve time.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  23. Time123 (653992) — 1/29/2021 @ 11:00 am

    If we burn down the republican party who will prevent the space lasers from burning down our forests or keep the Rothchilds from their canable/pedo/statanic rituals. Oh no. Think of the children.

    It’s important to keep these stories straight. The people who believe the space laser/rothchild story don’t believe the R’s are doing much to prevent that so burning it down won’t matter.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 11:05 am

    The crazy conspiracy theories are so thick it’s hard to keep track of what moonbat Qanon idea is mainstream and which one’s are restricted to fringe characters like General Flynn.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  24. NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/29/2021 @ 10:55 am

    The Lincoln Project has nothing to do with the Republican Accountability Project, Rob. The latter group are not Democrats.
    How about answering my question?

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  25. Oh, nevermind. The guy who accuses others of bad faith doesn’t have the good faith to answer me.

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  26. OK, doesn’t the fact that, when talking about space lasers and pedo/satanic ritual conspiracy theories we all immediately know that it’s the Republican party we’re talking about, beautifully illustrate just how unhinged the party has become – save for a minority of remaining not-loyal-to-Trump members?

    Dana (fd537d)

  27. just how unhinged the party has become

    Echoes of 1964; ‘Rockfeller Republicans’ said virtually the same thing back in Goldwater days.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. 4. NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/29/2021 @ 10:43 am

    In the meantime, insider and crook who altered documents to illegally investigate and try and criminalize associates of Trump gets off with a slap on the wrist.

    That wasn’t a serious investigation. The FBI was playing games. The purpose of the FISA warrant on Carter Page was to fend off Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid while avoiding spying on Trump or anybody associated with the Trump campaign. (Page was no longer associated with the campaign at that point.)

    Clinesmith altered an email the next year to protect the bureau, so that questions shouldn’t be asked about why the warrant was applied for in the first place.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  29. ‘Rockfeller Republicans’ said virtually the same thing back in Goldwater days.

    Then 4 years later they got their man, Richard Nixon, and a return to normalcy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. None of it would have happened if there was no Electoral College and the President was elected by popular vote. Thanks, Ted! Thanks, Josh!

    nk (1d9030)

  31. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/us/politics/mcconnell-trump-impeachment.html

    McConnell Was Done With Trump. His Party Said Not So Fast.

    …“Anybody surprised by that vote wasn’t paying attention before yesterday,” said Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri, a close ally of the Republican leader.

    For Mr. McConnell, a leader who derives his power in large part from his ability to keep Republicans unified, defying the will of his members would have been a momentous risk, putting his own post in peril and courting the ire of the far right.

    But in a series of discreet forays, the stoic 78-year-old had tried to nudge senators toward a different outcome.

    He made clear to associates after the Jan. 6 attack that he viewed Mr. Trump’s actions around the riot as impeachable and saw a Senate trial as an opportunity to purge him from the party, prompting an article in The New York Times that his office notably did not challenge. In a letter to colleagues, Mr. McConnell signaled he was open to conviction, a stark departure from a year before when he had declared that he was not an “impartial juror” in Mr. Trump’s first impeachment trial and guided him to acquittal.

    And then last week, in a speech on the Senate floor, Mr. McConnell flatly said the president had “provoked” the mob that sent the vice president and lawmakers fleeing as it violently stormed the Capitol, trying to stop Congress from formalizing his election loss.

    They were striking moves for Mr. McConnell, who for four years consistently supported and enabled Mr. Trump, including backing his refusal to concede the election for more than a month after Joseph R. Biden Jr. was declared the winner. Mr. Trump spent that period spreading the false claims of voter fraud that fueled the Jan. 6 rampage.

    But in the wake of the mob assault and a pair of Senate losses in Georgia, Mr. McConnell had come to view the former president as a dangerous political liability and saw an opening to marginalize Mr. Trump. He may have brought exceptionally energetic new voters into the Republican fold, Mr. McConnell and his advisers believed, but Mr. Trump’s excesses and personality had driven women and suburban voters away, and with them control of the House, the Senate and the White House in just a few short years. And after the Capitol riot, his actions had also put at risk the backing of donors and corporate groups that power the party’s campaigns.

    But in the wake of the mob assault and a pair of Senate losses in Georgia, Mr. McConnell had come to view the former president as a dangerous political liability and saw an opening to marginalize Mr. Trump….Still, the always-restrained Kentuckian never mounted a campaign to persuade other Republicans to join him, knowing how difficult it would be for his party to break from someone who polls indicate that half of its voters believe should remain their leader….Far from elucidating his position, Mr. McConnell has adopted a sphinx-like silence in public. As late as Tuesday morning, according to Republicans briefed on the conversations, his own aides were uncertain how he planned to vote on Mr. Paul’s motion. He has declined to explain his vote, telling reporters on Wednesday that as a juror in the coming proceeding, he planned to keep an open mind.

    “Well, the trial hasn’t started yet,” he said. “And I intend to participate in that and listen to the evidence.”

    His advisers declined to speculate on his thinking.

    Mr. McConnell remains eager to move beyond Mr. Trump. While his House counterpart, Representative Kevin McCarthy of California, was set to meet Mr. Trump on Thursday in an effort to repair his relationship with the former president, the Senate leader gladly told reporters he had not spoken to Mr. Trump since Dec. 15, after Mr. McConnell congratulated Mr. Biden as the president-elect. He has told allies he hopes never to talk to Mr. Trump again.

    Yet his public silence has left even some of the most loyal members of his conference flummoxed.

    Senator Kevin Cramer of North Dakota, who said last week that Mr. McConnell had told him to vote his conscience on matters of impeachment, ticked through a series of possible explanations for the leader’s vote on Wednesday.

    “Maybe this is one of those votes that you can be a reflection of your conference, and clearly he does that a lot,” he said of Mr. McConnell. “Our conference was pretty overwhelming in its support.”

    The vote clearly bewildered some Democrats, some of whom questioned whether it was even worth the effort — or the costs to Mr. Biden — to spend time on an impeachment trial destined once again for acquittal. Senators Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia, and Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, floated a bipartisan censure of Mr. Trump in lieu of a trial, setting off a flurry of debate over the topic.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  32. I’m open to evidence. I’ve seen plenty of fraud, not enough to change the election.

    In other words, Rob will say that there’s insufficient evidence of large-scale fraud, but won’t take the next logical step and acknowledge that Trump has been lying to the American people for months. If you make sh-t up without regard to any underlying facts, you’re lying. If people go along with your lies, then they’re enablers.
    And to take it the next logical step, if you’re not only lying for months but inviting your adoring followers to show up during an important Constitutional proceeding with the tease that it would be “wild”, and then say things on that day such as…
    “fight much harder” and
    “you have to show strength” and
    “when you catch somebody in a fraud, you are allowed to go by very different rules” and
    “we will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about” and
    “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore” and
    “try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country”
    …then you, too, are guilty of fomenting an insurrection, no? Complicit all who were engaged in this and defending this.

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  33. The Democrats had to treat impeachment like a piece of legislation that would be difficult to get a 2/3 majority for, but that would be possible.

    They used to be able to do things like that. LBJ was famous for that. That’s how he got the 1964 Civil Rights bill and some other thins like Medicare through Congress.

    That means working carefully and consulting members of the other party to see what language they would accept, etc.

    And Joe Biden has some Congressional skills.

    McConnell was, and maybe still is, gettable, and he’d take others with him, but they didn’t try.

    Conviction in an impeachment is possible.

    Maybe a third (and more accurate) impeachment resolution, combined with preparing the public a little for it, would work.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  34. @Paul Montagu

    Everything there is roped out of context. Nobody would have interpreted that to be license for an mob attack and nobody did. It was not a “dog whistle.”

    And I don’t care what the QShaman (the man in the Viking costume) may now try to claim.

    https://swvatoday.com/news/national/article_295172c7-e768-5e45-ab68-c86b87ab5aca.html

    Chansley, who calls himself the “QAnon Shaman” and has long been a fixture at Trump rallies, told investigators he came to the Capitol “at the request of the president that all ‘patriots’ come to D.C. on January 6,” according to court records.

    Well, OK.

    Did Trump tell him to come with a U.S. flag attached to a wooden pole topped with a spear, barge into the Senate chamber and write a threatening note to Vice President Mike Pence??

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  35. Paul Montagu (197cca) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:02 pm

    In other words, Rob will say that there’s insufficient evidence of large-scale fraud, but won’t take the next logical step and acknowledge that Trump has been lying to the American people for months. If you make sh-t up without regard to any underlying facts, you’re lying. If people go along with your lies, then they’re enablers.

    This is a careful line to walk, hoping people don’t draw too many parallels to 2016, Russiagate, Impeachment I, and the non-stop walls closing in. Good job! You deserve a golf clap, let me see if I can find one in my desk somewhere.

    frosty (f27e97)

  36. Paul Krugman writes that the Republican Party is in a doom loop. (he just wonders if the country is too)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/opinion/republican-lies.html

    Here’s what we know about American politics: The Republican Party is stuck, probably irreversibly, in a doom loop of bizarro…

    …What isn’t clear yet is who, exactly, will end up facing doom. Will it be the G.O.P. as a significant political force? Or will it be America as we know it?

    ..In other words, the G.O.P.’s national leadership, after briefly flirting with sense, has surrendered to the fantasies of the fringe. Cowardice rules…

    …Political scientists argue that traditional forces of moderation have been weakened by factors like the nationalization of politics and the rise of partisan media, notably Fox News.

    This opens the door to a process of self-reinforcing extremism (something, by the way, that I’ve seen happen in a minor fashion within some academic subfields). As hard-liners gain power within a group, they drive out moderates; what remains of the group is even more extreme, which drives out even more moderates; and so on. A party starts out complaining that taxes are too high; after a while it begins claiming that climate change is a giant hoax; it ends up believing that all Democrats are Satanist pedophiles…

    …And the cowardice of the Republican establishment has sealed the deal. One of America’s two major political parties has parted ways with facts, logic and democracy, and it’s not coming back…

    …What happens next? You might think that a party that goes off the deep end morally and intellectually would also find itself going off the deep end politically. And that has in fact happened in some states….

    ….The bottom line is that we don’t know whether we’ve earned more than a temporary reprieve. A president who tried to retain power despite losing an election has been foiled. But a party that buys into bizarre conspiracy theories and denies the legitimacy of its opposition isn’t getting saner, and still has a good chance of taking complete power in four years.

    Now some of what Paul Krugman writes is just wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  37. @29. Yes, comparing The Big Dick to President Plagiarist is apt. 😉

    Still, Reagan picked up the AuH20 banner and ran to defeat in ’68; Gipper kissed a lot of Big Dick butt after that, too; Reagan hugged that golden flag like Trump hugged one; ran as an insurgent a l Trump against The Big Dick’s hand-picked successor; both lost again. Then the born-again Christian was held hostage to a duststorm, lost- and the hell of false prosperity was unleashed by Credit Card Ronnie and Trump was spawned.

    “Impooch With Honor.” – pet food bowl; Nixon political kitch, 1974

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  38. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:26 pm

    Now some of what Paul Krugman writes is just wrong.

    This was the guy who dropped the great wisdom on us that countries with McDonald’s don’t go to war with each other?

    One of America’s two major political parties has parted ways with facts, logic and democracy, and it’s not coming back

    Just one? Yea, Krugman doesn’t have an agenda.

    You might think that a party that goes off the deep end morally and intellectually would also find itself going off the deep end politically.

    Well, no. We’ve years of evidence that a party can roll on after going off the deep end morally and intellectually.

    frosty (f27e97)

  39. Maybe a third (and more accurate) impeachment resolution, combined with preparing the public a little for it, would work.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:03 pm

    The fact that it would be the third, combined with the fact that the whole procedure would have started after Trump left office, would make it fail. Many people who support the current impeachment, or at least are not opposed to it, would oppose another one on the grounds that it wouldn’t feel right. “You’re doing this again? You’ve already had two bites at the apple. How much longer are we going to keep reliving this? C’mon now, give the man a break!” (To coin a phrase.)

    Plus, if the third proceeding would be meant to substitute for and improve on the second, we would have commentators coming out of the woodwork bringing up the concept of “double jeopardy” — irrelevant, since impeachment is a political and not a juridical proceeding, but facially appealing from a moral standpoint. (One of the cornerstones of American jurisprudence, after all, is that it would be fundamentally unfair for the system to be allowed to keep trying you until either they lose interest or one of their efforts finally succeeds. Whether impeachment works that way or not, any efforts to withdraw and redraft the charges would now run squarely into the moral intuition of most that it ought to.)

    Demosthenes (1e7dbc)

  40. Everything there is roped out of context.

    Nope. I don’t accept your tortured refusal to connect the dots, Sammy.

    Paul Montagu (197cca)

  41. AFAIK Clinesmith didn’t have a team, he wasn’t leader he was an individual contributor.

    Clinesmith knowingly and willingly lied to the court (ie, perjury) and came away with…a $100 fine.

    LOL

    Perjury is only a crime if you don’t know the right people.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  42. Shouldn’t the voters in the republican party decide what happens to the “leaders” of the republican party?

    J. W. Morris (ae9309)

  43. J. W. Morris (ae9309) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:42 pm

    Shouldn’t the voters in the republican party decide what happens to the “leaders” of the republican party?

    Yes, absolutely. So long as they are the right voters who vote for the right things because it’s right. Go America! Democracy!. Otherwise, no and other members of congress should expel anyone voted in by the wrong voters.

    frosty (f27e97)

  44. AFAIK Clinesmith didn’t have a team, he wasn’t leader he was an individual contributor.

    Clinesmith knowingly and willingly lied to the court (ie, perjury) and came away with…a $100 fine.

    LOL

    Perjury is only a crime if you don’t know the right people.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:41 pm

    1 year probation and 400 our community service and I think the punishment should have been much more severe.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  45. This is a careful line to walk, hoping people don’t draw too many parallels to 2016, Russiagate, Impeachment I, and the non-stop walls closing in.

    Why would it be a “careline line to walk”, frosty? Why whatabout with so-called “parallels”?
    It’s a fact that Putin mounted a “sweeping and systematic” effort to undermine our 2016 election.
    It’s a fact that Trump tried to enlist the help of a foreign power to take down his chief political rival, which is illegal.
    It’s a fact that Trump and all his defenders have no legitimate evidence of serious fraud.
    One standard, no?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  46. J. W. Morris (ae9309) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:42 pm

    Shouldn’t the voters in the republican party decide what happens to the “leaders” of the republican party?

    Yes, absolutely. So long as they are the right voters who vote for the right things because it’s right. Go America! Democracy!. Otherwise, no and other members of congress should expel anyone voted in by the wrong voters.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:49 pm

    MTG shouldn’t be expelled because she’s a trash bag full of lies. The voters knew that when they picked her. We are however free to mock those amoral fools for doing so. GOP leadership is also free to say ‘She’s too crazed to sit on committee.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  47. “Yes, absolutely. So long as they are the right voters who vote for the right things because it’s right. Go America! Democracy!. Otherwise, no and other members of congress should expel anyone voted in by the wrong voters.”

    “On October 27, one week before Election Day, Greene sat down for a live interview with pro-gun activist Chris Dorr broadcast on Facebook from a Pennsylvania gun shop…The only way you get your freedoms back is it’s earned with the price of blood.”

    How do you work with these people?

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  48. “GOP leadership is also free to say ‘She’s too crazed to sit on committee.”

    Good luck with that.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  49. Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:59 pm

    We are however free to mock those amoral fools for doing so

    Yes we are

    frosty (f27e97)

  50. Paul Montagu (197cca) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:02 pm

    In other words, Rob will say that there’s insufficient evidence of large-scale fraud, but won’t take the next logical step and acknowledge that Trump has been lying to the American people for months. If you make sh-t up without regard to any underlying facts, you’re lying. If people go along with your lies, then they’re enablers.

    This is a careful line to walk, hoping people don’t draw too many parallels to 2016, Russiagate, Impeachment I, and the non-stop walls closing in. Good job! You deserve a golf clap, let me see if I can find one in my desk somewhere.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:20 pm

    In 2016 Russia committed crimes to interfere in our election. There was reasonable suspicion that members of the Trump campaign were aware of this and involved and a properly predicated investigation was begun and carried out by a life long republican. Hillary Clinton conceded that trump won the day after the election and Obama welcomed Trump to the white house.

    In 2020 Trump lost an election and made numerous allegations of fraud and improper process, none backed by any compelling evidence and lost 60 lawsuits. After that he continued to make the claim and add his voice to theories so farfetched i won’t even bother to summarize. Trump supporters attacked the capital, erected a gallows outside of the capital building and called for the death of VP Pence. Trump never conceded fled the white house before the inauguration and has reportedly refused to speak to Biden. His supporters continue to follow his lead.

    I see no honest parallel between the 2.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  51. Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:04 pm

    How do you work with these people?

    In that particular case, it’s easy. Stop advocating for gun bans, stop plans to regulate firearms possession, stop plans for mandatory buybacks, stop plans for restrictions on firearms and ammo sales, etc. In fact, you don’t even need to work with “these people” at all if you’d stop all of the federal 2a nonsense.

    frosty (f27e97)

  52. @44

    AFAIK Clinesmith didn’t have a team, he wasn’t leader he was an individual contributor.

    Clinesmith knowingly and willingly lied to the court (ie, perjury) and came away with…a $100 fine.

    LOL

    Perjury is only a crime if you don’t know the right people.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:41 pm

    1 year probation and 400 our community service and I think the punishment should have been much more severe.

    Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:57 pm

    To be fair.

    He’s lost his government job.

    He’s in danger (but not likely) of losing his pension.

    He’s definitely may have his law license suspended for a time.

    Those things are not “nothing”.

    whembly (fcc090)

  53. “In that particular case, it’s easy. Stop advocating for gun bans, stop plans to regulate firearms possession, stop plans for mandatory buybacks, stop plans for restrictions on firearms and ammo sales, etc. In fact, you don’t even need to work with “these people” at all if you’d stop all of the federal 2a nonsense.”

    Ah, yes, the “price of blood” people are the reasonable ones.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  54. 39. Demosthenes (1e7dbc) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:39 pm

    The fact that it would be the third, combined with the fact that the whole procedure would have started after Trump left office, would make it fail.

    I know, I know tere’s a problem with that. Best would be for the House to add an additional (more honest and moderate) charge now, after holding a day or two of hearings, and have it tried together at the same time as the current impeachment trial. It should accuse him pfpushin claims he knew were wrong and using his position and prominence to repeatedly urge that people in official positions do things that had no right to do. If there is evidence he could also be accused of dereliction of duty during the attack on the Capitol. Bu Democrats are highly unlikely to bring a “superceding indictment.”

    It would have to be provoked by something Donald Trump did, like reiterating his claims that he won the election by a landslide.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  55. A point of clarification, Dana, for those who are conflating RAP with the Lincoln Project.
    Bill Kristol is a Republican and principal of RAP, and he had no relationship with the Lincoln Project, which is rightfully considered a Democrat fundraising operation. They might make entertaining commercials, but I can’t and won’t support. Kristol was affiliated with Republican Voters Against Trump, which also made good commercials but were not as prolific as the other guys.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  56. Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:12 pm

    Hillary Clinton conceded that trump won the day after the election

    Really?, oh you said the day after?

    It’s fine to think they aren’t comparable but don’t say

    Hillary Clinton dismissed President Trump as an “illegitimate president” and suggested that “he knows” that he stole the 2016 presidential election

    wasn’t a thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. ” the Lincoln Project, which is rightfully considered a Democrat fundraising operation.

    Founded by noted Democrats George Conway and Steve Schmidt.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  58. Plus, if the third proceeding would be meant to substitute for and improve on the second, we would have commentators coming out of the woodwork bringing up the concept of “double jeopardy” — irrelevant, since impeachment is a political and not a juridical proceeding, but facially appealing from a moral standpoint.

    It also is not double jeopardy because it would not be for the “same offense”

    The whole problem is, that what Trump did do, he’s mot accused of – he’s accused of doing something he didn’t do, and most of it would be impossible to do. (let someone try to successfully incite a crowd to assault a building.)

    This assault began being planned in November, well before Trump could conceivably have wanted this to happen

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/self-styled-militia-members-in-three-states-began-planning-in-novembe-for-recruits-weapons-ahead-of-capitol-breach-us-alleges/2021/01/27/f13b0bfc-60b9-11eb-9061-07abcc1f9229_story.html

    https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2021/01/29/ohio-militia-members-started-planning-capitol-violence-in-november-prosecutors-say

    Ohio ‘Militia’ Members Started Planning Capitol Violence in November, Prosecutors Say

    Posted By Jake Zuckerman, Ohio Capital Journal on Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 10:15 am

    …Members of an unregulated Ohio militia began plotting a violent attempt to overturn the presidential election just days after cable networks first projected President Joe Biden had won, federal prosecutors say.

    A grand jury handed up indictments against three people Wednesday, including Jessica Watkins, 38, and Donovan Crowl, 50, two members of the self-described “Ohio State Regular Militia.”

    Insurrectionists mobbed the building as Congress was in the process of certifying the results of the presidential election in a fruitless attempt to forcibly reverse the outcome. That same day, two pipe bombs were located at the Democratic and Republican party headquarters, mere blocks away.

    Five people died during the raid, including a U.S. Capitol Police officer hit in the head with a fire extinguisher and a rioter shot by police. Another Capitol Police officer killed himself days after the raid.

    At least 81 members of Capitol Police and 58 members of Washington D.C. Metropolitan police were assaulted that day, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

    …..On Jan. 6, Crowl and Watkins donned reinforced vests, camouflage helmets, ballistic goggles and communications devices. They joined fellow members of their broader militia known as the Oath Keepers and formed a human train, as captured on video, slicing through a dense crowd up the stairs of the east side of the Capitol.

    Just after 2:40 p.m., they “forcibly entered” the building, according to prosecutors, and pushed past a police officer who appeared to be trying to stop the crowd.

    Caldwell and an unidentified individual meanwhile stormed past exterior barricades and positioned themselves on the Capitol’s west side balcony.

    “Inside,” Caldwell wrote in a Facebook message at 3:05 p.m. to an unidentified recipient, according to prosecutors.

    The indictment contains new details about the trio’s alleged coordination with fellow members of the Oath Keepers, a right-wing extremist group within the broader militia movement. Its members are predominantly police officers or veterans and often harbor antigovernmental views. Watkins has said she formed the militia in late 2019 and later fused it with the Oath Keepers.

    Prosecutors say as early as Nov. 9, Watkins, 38, started soliciting recruits for an operation tied to the election.

    ….In December, Crowl attended a “training camp” in North Carolina while Caldwell arranged hotel stays in Washington D.C. Watkins worked on seeing if “NC boys” are coming, according to prosecutors. Caldwell later said at least 40 people from North Carolina, maybe more from Mississippi were coming.

    In an earlier filing, police said when they raided Watkins apartment, they found a printed recipe for plastic explosives, along with cell phones, “numerous” firearms, a paintball gun with rubber-steel balls, pool cues cut down to baton size, “zip/cable ties” and others.

    The calls to violence, as prosecutors detail, are fairly explicit. Caldwell wrote on Facebook on New Year’s Day that he took an oath (he is a veteran) to support and defend the Constitution of the U.S. against enemies foreign and domestic.

    “I did the former, I have done the latter peacefully but they have morphed into pure evil even blatantly rigging an election and paying off the political caste,” he wrote. “We must smite them and drive them down.”

    Radio communications through the Zello walkie-talkie app, intercepted by reporters and published in The Guardian, captured Watkins and other militia members communicating in real time as they enter the building.

    “We’ve got a good group, there’s about 30, 40 of us,” she said. “We’re sticking together and sticking to the plan.”

    Her last communication, a recording of which prosecutors say they obtained as well, is candid.

    “We are in the mezzanine, we are in the main building right now, we are rocking it,” she said. “They’re throwing grenades, they’re shooting people with paintballs, but we’re in here.”

    An unknown male responds telling her to be safe, and states, “Get it, Jess. Do your f***ing thing. This is what we f***ing [unintelligible] up for. Everything we f***ing trained for,” according to a transcript of the recording within the charging documents.

    After the raid, Caldwell messaged Crowl, suggesting they localize the insurrection.

    “We need to do this at the local level. Let’s storm the Capitol in Ohio. Tell me when,” he wrote.

    Prosecutors allege the trio soon attempted to cover their tracks. They say Caldwell on Jan. 8 began deleting Facebook communications about the event.

    After the Ohio Capital Journal identified Watkins as an insurrectionist on Jan. 13 and The New Yorker identified Crowl as the same Jan. 14, the two left Ohio for Caldwell’s in Virginia. Caldwell, the indictment states, directed Crowl to conceal his travel and hide evidence of his involvement on the raid.

    In her only interview since the raid, Watkins said to this outlet she didn’t destroy any property or tussle with any police officers — which contradicts the prosecutors’ account. She admitted to entering the Capitol but denied having committed a crime.

    “To me, it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw until we started hearing glass smash,” she said. “That’s when we knew things had gotten really bad.”

    Along with conspiracy, the three face charges of obstructing an official proceeding, destroying government property, and entering a restricted building.

    On Nov. 7, around the same time the militia allegedly began its planning, Watkins, Crowl and one other person appeared at the Ohio Statehouse to “protect people,” as Watkins said, during clashing protests that formed after the networks called the race for Biden.

    The three have patrolled a dozen protests in Ohio and Kentucky prior to breaching the Capitol.

    In response to a November inquiry, the Ohio Department of Homeland Security said Ohio law and the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protected the militia’s right to patrol the clashing protests.

    Speaking to The Washington Post, Thomas Plofchan, a lawyer for Caldwell, said prosecutors were using his client as a scapegoat. He denied Caldwell’s involvement with the Oath Keepers and said his client is innocent.

    Crowl confirmed to The New Yorker he entered the Capitol, claiming his intentions were peaceful and he had never been violent.

    Attorney information for the three suspects was not available Thursday on the federal court docket and attempts to contact a court employee were unsuccessful.

    Originally published by the Ohio Capital Journal. Republished here with permission.

    The impeachment claim, that Trump incited the assault by what he said that day s falling apart in front of our eyes.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  59. Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:22 pm

    Ah, yes, the “price of blood” people are the reasonable ones.

    There are reasonable 2a options on the table but if you want to wear down the 2a don’t whine when you can’t do it for free.

    frosty (f27e97)

  60. Entitled establishment republicans and their running dogs in the media, think their views are more important then the 74 million ignorant white trash republicans that they loathe! Now you think your ENTITLED to retake the republican party for the wealthy donor class and their lackeys. Your money can no longer buy power in the republican party. 10% will no longer control the other 90% by buying candidates to compete with trump candidates. Populists are not leaving the republican party to you.

    asset (153435)

  61. “There are reasonable 2a options on the table but if you want to wear down the 2a don’t whine when you can’t do it for free.”

    The Jewish space lasers will keep us safe.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  62. I don’t know how long people will be able to maintain this double think:

    1) That Donald Trump incited it by his speech on the Ellipse, and

    2) That it was being planned for almost two months, and that the Capitol Police should have been better prepared.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  63. In that particular case, it’s easy. Stop advocating for gun bans, stop plans to regulate firearms possession, stop plans for mandatory buybacks, stop plans for restrictions on firearms and ammo sales, etc. In fact, you don’t even need to work with “these people” at all if you’d stop all of the federal 2a nonsense.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:19 pm

    Combine what Davethulhu quoted with your rant here, and what we get is: “Give us everything we want, or we’ll destroy you.” Which is certainly an interesting negotiating tactic, but perhaps not the best PR message coming from supposedly responsible gun owners.

    However, given what the friends of Marjorie were willing to do at the Capitol three weeks ago, it’s actually pretty apt.

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  64. @44
    AFAIK Clinesmith didn’t have a team, he wasn’t leader he was an individual contributor.
    Clinesmith knowingly and willingly lied to the court (ie, perjury) and came away with…a $100 fine.

    LOL

    Perjury is only a crime if you don’t know the right people.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:41 pm

    1 year probation and 400 our community service and I think the punishment should have been much more severe.

    Time123 (f5cf77) — 1/29/2021 @ 12:57 pm

    To be fair.

    He’s lost his government job.

    He’s in danger (but not likely) of losing his pension.

    He’s definitely may have his law license suspended for a time.

    Those things are not “nothing”.

    whembly (fcc090) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:21 pm

    i’m not saying he got a slap on the wrist. i’m saying his punishment should have been more severe.

    Time123 (653992)

  65. [blah blah bibbity blah rant that makes me miss happyfeet]

    asset (153435) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:33 pm

    At this point, you seem like more of a liability to me…

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  66. Assaults like the one on the Capitol take at least six weeks of planning. (that’s why the next date for the insurrectionists os March 4)

    These attacks can be a surprise to the people attacked but they are never a surprise to the attackers.

    There never was a surprise military attack (that was co-ordinated in any way) that a surprise to the aggressor.

    Japan did not decide on the spur of the moment to attack Pearl Harbor.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  67. Entitled establishment republicans and their running dogs in the media, think their views are more important then the 74 million ignorant white trash republicans that they loathe! Now you think your ENTITLED to retake the republican party for the wealthy donor class and their lackeys. Your money can no longer buy power in the republican party. 10% will no longer control the other 90% by buying candidates to compete with trump candidates. Populists are not leaving the republican party to you.

    asset (153435) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:33 pm

    Which do you think is the bigger priority;hanging Mike Pence, the Jewish Space Lasers, or the satanic sex dungeons in the pizzeria basement?

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  68. The impeachment claim, that Trump incited the assault by what he said that day s falling apart in front of our eyes.
    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:31 pm

    LOL.

    Don’t worry – Democrats will figure out how to square that circle.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  69. I don’t know how long people will be able to maintain this double think:

    1) That Donald Trump incited it by his speech on the Ellipse, and

    2) That it was being planned for almost two months, and that the Capitol Police should have been better prepared.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:36 pm

    “Look, either you can blame me for burning down Grandpa’s shed because I threw a lit match on it, or you can blame my brothers because they were pouring gasoline on it for twenty minutes beforehand. But you can’t blame me AND them!”

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  70. I don’t know how long people will be able to maintain this double think:

    1) That Donald Trump incited it by his speech on the Ellipse, and

    2) That it was being planned for almost two months, and that the Capitol Police should have been better prepared.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:36 pm

    What if we find out that some people went planning violence and other did it because Trump encouraged them?

    Or that people planned violence but refrained until they heard what they thought was direction from Trump?

    Time123 (653992)

  71. Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:42 pm

    Combine what Davethulhu quoted with your rant here, and what we get is: “Give us everything we want, or we’ll destroy you.” Which is certainly an interesting negotiating tactic, but perhaps not the best PR message coming from supposedly responsible gun owners.

    Who is “us” in this sentence? The 2a people don’t “want” anything new. At best they “want” to leave things to the local states. The better formulation is “Leave things alone, or we’ll destroy you.” It’s the anti-2a crowd that has shown up and decided that something must be done or else.

    If Greene wants to use hyperbolic language to get across the point that people are serious about the 2a, good. If that triggers you I’m sorry.

    frosty (f27e97)

  72. Founded by noted Democrats George Conway and Steve Schmidt.

    Independents, actually. Schmidt took it a step further last month when he registered as a Democrat.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  73. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:36 pm

    I don’t know how long people will be able to maintain this double think:

    witness the power of the internet. you got an answer almost right away.

    frosty (f27e97)

  74. @73, My suggestions addressed the contradiction in a simple and straight forward way.

    Time123 (653992)

  75. The better formulation is “Leave things alone, or we’ll destroy you.”

    Thanks for agreeing to the second part. That’s all I was trying to get across.

    If Greene wants to use hyperbolic language…

    Nope. Uh-uh. People who approve of social media posts about killing members of Congress, and whose fellow travelers recently breached the center of American government (some of whom were looking to ACTUALLY DO THAT), are not allowed to play the “hyperbole” card. It has been permanently removed from their deck.

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  76. You know Hillary conceded because she literally gave a concession speech on Wednesday 11/9/2016, and Obama started the transition process shortly thereafter. Let’s not confuse that with her after-the-fact sour grapes whining.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  77. Time123 (653992) — 1/29/2021 @ 2:04 pm

    @73, My suggestions addressed the contradiction in a simple and straight forward way.

    It was a fair answer. Not challenging it.

    I think it’s a waste of time to get into the “incitement” arguement. It just seems like a “yes, it is, no, it isn’t” back and forth.

    But Sammy asked a question and he got an almost immediate response. Both are already accepted as true.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. Frosty, Fair enough. I hope the senate Trial is detailed and thorough.

    1. I want to know what really happened and not what i think happened.
    2. It will diminish what Biden can try to do.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  79. Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 1/29/2021 @ 2:07 pm

    Nope. Uh-uh. People … are not allowed to play the “hyperbole” card. It has been permanently removed from their deck.

    deck? card? I don’t know this deck you speak of. I’ll give the same suggestion I gave on the expulsion topic, you should go to the GA 14th District and explain to them this idea of the deck and card. Make sure you tell them you’re there to get their guns. That district seems like it’d have a lot of people waiting for someone to come collect them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. @Dana@26

    I have no dog in this hunt, never having been either a Dem or a Republican, but it seems to me that it should be concerning to the Republican party that only 25% of the people in our center right country identify as Republicans, while 31% identify as Democrats.

    Nic (896fdf)

  81. “Make sure you tell them you’re there to get their guns.”

    Make sure you don’t interrupt them while they’re calling in death threats to Sandy Hook parents. Sorry, I mean “crisis actors”.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  82. Neocon Bill Kristol is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  83. @81. It hasn’t bothered them for years, given the alternatives, as long as they could create an control the image of a candidate, sucker fringe and extremist groups repeatedly w/empty rhetoric to create coalitions to win cycles, then abandon them… but this time, it was one time too many.

    Now they’ve swopped ends on them and lost control. No Yeagers in that group; hence the ol’ Neocon GOP is augering in. Hit the silk, Liz.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. I flopped down in my easy chair and turned on channel 2
    A bad gunslinger called Salty Joe was a-chasin’ poor sweet Sue
    He trapped her in the old sawmill and said with an evil laugh
    “If you don’t give me all of your guns, I’ll saw you all in half”

    And then he grabbed her (And then?)
    He tied her up (And then?)
    He turned on the buzz saw (And then? And then?)

    Why, honeychile, poor Sweet Sue done gone and voted for Donald Trump and all was right again.

    Ref: Along Came Jones

    nk (1d9030)

  85. Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:04 pm

    How do you work with these people?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:19 pm:

    In that particular case, it’s easy. Stop advocating for gun bans, stop plans to regulate firearms possession, stop plans for mandatory buybacks, stop plans for restrictions on firearms and ammo sales, etc. In fact, you don’t even need to work with “these people” at all if you’d stop all of the federal 2a nonsense.

    Seriously, you think that Greene is motivated by concerns over gun control? She’s a nutter through and through. America can’t be held hostage by compromising with the crazies.

    Rip Murdock (bea13b)

  86. Rip Murdock (bea13b) — 1/29/2021 @ 7:06 pm

    Biden ran on a radical anti-gun platform. If your plan is that anything less than that is nuts and can’t be reasoned with then you’re the reason we’ve got Greene and why we’ll get more like her.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. @87-
    Personally I believe Americans should be able to own any weapon that can be hand carried by a soldier.

    Rip Murdock (328795)

  88. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 11:48 am

    Clinesmith altered an email the next year to protect the bureau, so that questions shouldn’t be asked about why the warrant was applied for in the first place.

    We sort of slide by this one. Clinesmith was an attorney for the FBI and he altered information coming into the FBI, aka made false statements to the FBI related to an active investigation.

    The document was altered to show that Page was “not a source” for the CIA, even though the original message from the CIA indicated otherwise.

    and then

    Clinesmith … acknowledging he had committed a crime but did not mean to mislead FBI agents.

    And everyone just nods along and says a slap on the wrist is more than enough.

    Tell me again what happens to other people who make false statements to the FBI? Who keeps telling me the FBI and DOJ aren’t rotten at the core. This sort of stuff is an insult to honest field agents.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. Judges aren’t dumb. Well, okay, not most of them, anyway, but you don’t have be Einstein to see that Clinesmith’s prosecution was pure vindictiveness on the part of Trump’s hitmen, Barr and Durham.

    And I’ll tell you something else, too, Trump worshippers. Ain’t no Trump supporter got no moral authority whatsoever to tall about law and justice. Not after the January 6 treason, not after all of Trump’s pardons of cronies and photo-ops, and not after the execution of a woman.

    nk (1d9030)

  90. @90 whatabout, whatabout, and whatabout but also some ad hominem

    frosty (f27e97)

  91. Yes, frosty, I know you have your fingers in your ears and “nyah, nyah, nyah, can’t hear [me]!”

    nk (1d9030)

  92. The big lie. I reject your paradigm and adopt my own. That is politics today. It’s criminal. A big lie maybe. Anybody fomenting the stolen election lie as the Big Lie needs to kiss my behind because in the past five years, that is certainly not the Big Lie.

    Richbert88 (995a5b)

  93. The big lie. I reject your paradigm and adopt my own. That is politics today. It’s criminal. A big lie maybe. Anybody fomenting the stolen election lie as the Big Lie needs to kiss my behind because in the past five years, that is certainly not the Big Lie.

    Well, there are 35,000 others to choose from, pick.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  94. 58. 62. 68/69/70

    The impeachment claim, that Trump incited the assault by what he said that day s falling apart in front of our eyes.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:31 pm

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/29/2021 @ 1:53 pm

    LOL.

    Don’t worry – Democrats will figure out how to square that circle.

    They key thing is not to repeat both claims in the same room at the same time.

    But eventually that will happen by accident.

    You can argue that some people did it for this reason – they were planning violence – and others did it for another reason, or that the people planning violence were waiting for a go-ahead from Trump or what they thought was a go-ahead.

    The problem with that is that it will probably turn out that most of the 300 plus people that are known to ave gone into the Capitol didn’t hear Trump speak, and those who did were being encouraged by other people in the crowd, and that nobody reasonable would think anything Trump said was an encouragement to violate the terms of the permit for the rally at the Capitol. The word “fight” used all the time.

    ?

    Or that people planned violence but refrained until they heard what they thought was direction from Trump?

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  95. 89/ frosty (f27e97) — 1/30/2021 @ 8:40 am

    The news reports don;t make any sense at all. The judge said Clinesmith was lazy and wanted to save himself work. How does being lazy cause you to change the wording of an e-mail? Is Clinesmith claiming he didn’t check? Then how can it be said he altered an email?

    https://nypost.com/2021/01/29/fbi-lawyer-who-doctored-carter-page-email-gets-probation

    Former Trump 2016 campaign foreign-policy adviser George Papadopoulos — who spent 14 days in jail before he was pardoned last month after admittedly lying to the FBI during the agency’s Russia probe — blasted Clinesmith’s no-jail sentence.

    “Prosecutor Anthony Scarpelli said in court that Clinesmith’s conduct was ‘more egregious’ than that of George Papadopoulos,” Papadopoulos tweeted Friday.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  96. Or that people planned violence but refrained until they heard what they thought was direction from Trump?

    Except there was no such direction from Trump.

    There were people with bullhorns directing people to do the wrong thing.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/01/pro-trump-rioter-historical-art-defense.html

    I do what the bullhorn tells me. So say Kevin and Hunter Seefried. CNN reports the “father-son duo had come to the Capitol on January 6 to hear Trump speak and they marched to the Capitol following a person with a bullhorn, they told the FBI.”

    I think this has got facts garbled. Maybe they came to Washington D.C. to hear Trump speak but Trump didn’t speak at the Capitol.

    Alex Jones was also there with a bullhorn and he was trying to get people to go to the right place (even if he knew what was going to happen, he was careful to personally act properly) apparently to little or no avail.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/jan-6-rally-funded-by-top-trump-donor-helped-by-alex-jones-organizers-say-11612012063

    Messrs. Alexander and Jones were at the Capitol grounds together on Jan. 6, and Mr. Jones supported protesters with a bullhorn, video footage shows. He urged them to be peaceful and proceed to the area on the Capitol grounds where Mr. Alexander had secured a demonstration permit, according to Mr. Alexander and the footage

    This may have been a clever conspiracy by Ali Alexander and others, but of course in that case it’s reasonable to suppose that Donald Trump himself was conned. Alex Jones wanted to speak at the rally in the Ellipse but Trump told ” former campaign adviser Katrina Pierson, who had begun working with rally organizers” on January 4 that he mainly wanted members of Congress there. Alex Jones didn’t get to speak at the rally in the Ellipse but he got that at another rally held January 5. (Was he scheduled at the one that never took place at the Capitol? Did he or did he not truly expect that to take place?)

    An investigating committee would know who to subpoena. Also Caroline Wren, Amy Kremer and Cindy Chafian,

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  97. Sammy, I worry about you sometimes, I really do.

    nk (1d9030)

  98. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 1/30/2021 @ 7:53 pm

    I don’t think I disagree with. I only think you understate it. This is someone who works for the FBI, who falsified information in an active investigation, and that information was presented to a judge as part of a FISA warrant that involved a presidential candidate. He doesn’t deny doing it. He doesn’t deny that it was a crime. He denies the intent to deceive but what other reason is there to have changed it? He has not conflicting evidence to justify changing it.

    But people who, in other circumstances, are apoplectic about destroying norms and faiths in institutions shrug this off as no big deal. I don’t wonder why they do that. I understand. I think it’s ironic that they make the same revenge argument that people made for Flynn and Papadopoulos to dismiss it. But this is a big deal and the light sentence is also a big deal.

    frosty (f27e97)

  99. deck? card? I don’t know this deck you speak of.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/29/2021 @ 2:23 pm

    My deck has the standard 52 cards. Yours might have fewer.

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  100. frosty (f27e97) — 1/30/2021 @ 9:00 pm

    This is someone who works for the FBI, who falsified information in an active investigation, and that information was presented to a judge as part of a FISA warrant that involved a presidential candidate.

    By that time, the presidential candidate was resident and had fired the FBI Director. The FISA warrant on Carter Page had produced nothing of value, and this was for another application renewal. I am not sure if the application was granted; I think the last one was in May, 2017, and Clinesmith altered the email inn June.

    He doesn’t deny doing it. He doesn’t deny that it was a crime. He denies the intent to deceive but what other reason is there to have changed it? He has not conflicting evidence to justify changing it.

    The news reports I read are not specific enough to make his defense make any sense. Somehow the people who write them don’t see that. Obviously, even if untrue,
    it did not come across as sheer nonsense to the judge, but how it cannot be nonsense I have no idea.

    I don’t think this was an attempt to “get” Trump. It could not have that effect. I think this was an attempt to protect other people at the Bureau.

    But people who, in other circumstances, are apoplectic about destroying norms and faiths in institutions shrug this off as no big deal. I don’t wonder why they do that. I understand. I think it’s ironic that they make the same revenge argument that people made for Flynn and Papadopoulos to dismiss it. But this is a big deal and the light sentence is also a big deal.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)

  101. But people who, in other circumstances, are apoplectic about destroying norms and faiths in institutions shrug this off as no big deal. I don’t wonder why they do that. I understand. I think it’s ironic that they make the same revenge argument that people made for Flynn and Papadopoulos to dismiss it. But this is a big deal and the light sentence is also a big deal.

    I wonder how many other false statements he or others at the FBI made. I think here it was part of an effort not to have the original FISA warrant questioned or reexamined.

    Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f)


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