Patterico's Pontifications

7/31/2021

Constitutional Vanguard: Is the Republican Party Deliberately Trying to Prolong the Pandemic?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:31 pm



Seems like a crazy claim, right? Maybe not so much. Watch what Trump does today. It’s what the GOP will be doing tomorrow.

[A]s applied to Trump, at least, Beutler is right. Donald Trump would be totally fine with the pandemic spreading if he thought it would hurt Biden and benefit him. You may have noticed that he doesn’t care about anyone but himself. If you showed Donald Trump a button that, if pushed, would guarantee his re-election . . . but would also cause the agonizing death of every person reading these words right now, he would ask you: “What’s the catch?”

So yeah, I think Donald Trump would be happy to prolong the pandemic to hurt Biden. It’s evident from his July 18 statement equating distrust in the vaccines with distrust in Fake News and the 2020 election results.

Will the Republican party go along with that strategy, even though it’s immoral?

If history is any guide, the answer is yes. If Donald Trump wants people to die so that Joe Biden’s approval ratings drop, the Republican party will fall in line.

Just like they always have.

The piece can be accessed here. Subscribe here.

430 Responses to “Constitutional Vanguard: Is the Republican Party Deliberately Trying to Prolong the Pandemic?”

  1. I’m going to be saddened by some of the comments, I’m sure.

    Get vaccinated. Period.

    Politics is awful.

    Simon Jester (a73139)

  2. Given the harm that the Republican Party seems all too willing to inflict, should we start thinking of it as a criminal enterprise?

    John B Boddie (026da3)

  3. I think Trump’s diabolical plan, John, would ultimately exterminate the anti-vaxers that hijacked Republican Party. Your worries will be for naught as the deadliest of all deadly pandemics wipes the slate clean of those fools.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  4. i just checked

    from may2020 to early nov2020, no post asking if democrats deliberately tried to spread the virus through protests which violated social distancing rules

    and no post yet asking whether democrats are deliberately trying to spread the virus through their carefully crafted flaunting of the law and title 42 at the border

    no one of prominence in the GOP is saying don’t take the vaccine, nor are they violating the law or intentionally violating social norms pertaining to virus spread

    covid vaccine rate variance across states and political affiliation tracks with flu vaccine rates

    that’s inconvenient, so we must find something nefarious when the administration’s message isn’t working and we can’t blame the administration

    JF (e1156d)

  5. About those deaths:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7io99EWEAATWyu?format=jpg&name=large

    Huh?

    My piece is about deaths of the unvaccinated.

    Your link addresses hospitalizations and deaths of the vaccinated.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  6. i just checked

    from may2020 to early nov2020, no post asking if democrats deliberately tried to spread the virus through protests which violated social distancing rules

    I’ve been vocal about that. Probably largely on Twitter. And the notion that that was “deliberate” is silly.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  7. I apologize. I misunderstood who Trump would like to kill. I figured if he was purposely killing in unvaccinated fools, it would be a strike against his own team. Seems like a pointless strategy.

    BuDuh (b898f8)

  8. I has a sad. Just sayin’…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  9. I apologize. I misunderstood who Trump would like to kill. I figured if he was purposely killing in unvaccinated fools, it would be a strike against his own team. Seems like a pointless strategy.

    It doesn’t make sense that Tucker Carlson wants to kill his viewers, but he still spreads garbage that does.

    It doesn’t make sense that Trump would want to kill his voters, but he still spreads garbage that does.

    In each case, these cretins have evidently calculated that the benefits from spreading anti-vax propaganda (eyeballs for Tucker, harming Biden for Trump) is worth the trade-off. Nobody ever said Trump was smart. OK, a lot of people did, but I meant rational people.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  10. I has a sad. Just sayin’…

    Ah, the value added by Colonel Haiku!

    Patterico (e349ce)

  11. I’m going to be saddened by some of the comments, I’m sure.

    An excellent prediction!

    Patterico (e349ce)

  12. And now I’m sadder still…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. How does killing your own supporters by taking an anti vaccination stance lead to Biden’s approval ratings dropping?

    I am missing part of the strategy I think.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  14. Matt Walsh
    @MattWalshBlog
    ·
    Jul 30
    320 people are dying of COVID per day nationwide. 1700 are dying per day of heart disease. 1600 of cancer. 473 from accidents. The COVID death rate is a tenth of what it was at its peak. 9 of the 10 most populated cities are recording 5 or fewer COVID deaths per day. Perspective.

    https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog

    For the sake of my question I am going to assume that this person has the correct numbers. What numbers do Tucker and Trump need to reach for their plan to come together?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  15. I think that some of the unvaccinated (and even some of the vaccinated like Carlson or Hannity) want the deaths to rise on Biden’s watch. That does not mean that all the unvaccinated, or all Republicans or all Trump supporters want that.

    There are some people who are staying unvaccinated out of spite, sure. Some are doing out of fear of the vaccine or misgivings about it. Some due to being young and invulnerable. Some because they believe some wild rumor about their nose falling off.

    The reason really doesn’t matter to me, as they are all prolonging the period where there is a large enough incubation host. And that’s really what matters, not why. If anything, the people who are doing this out of spite aren’t the people you can convince anyway.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. Nobody ever said Trump was smart.

    Nobody smart ever did anyway. People who thought that Trump was a genius probably meet a lot of relative geniuses.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. I just read they’re making our bacon disappear in California. I’m no longer sad, I’m despondent.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  18. How does killing your own supporters by taking an anti vaccination stance lead to Biden’s approval ratings dropping?

    You act as if logic was paramount here. Or even operative.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  19. I was hoping to see some logic in the accusation. I haven’t yet.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  20. @7 democrats were conscious of the conflict between protests and social distancing and pushed the former

    without the virus, democrats are out of power

    was the vaccine delayed so as not to help trump? it’s a buried story, so it must be silly

    JF (e1156d)

  21. @8 I apologize. I misunderstood who Trump would like to kill. I figured if he was purposely killing in unvaccinated fools, it would be a strike against his own team. Seems like a pointless strategy.
    You really think Trump is a team player? He’s a narcissist, who could care less about the Constitution and the rule of law, is destroying the GOP and has probably destroyed Mike Pence’s political career. I’m not shedding any tears for the Republican Party or Mike Pence. Pence was too dumb to not hitch his wagon to Donald Trump.

    @14 How does killing your own supporters by taking an anti vaccination stance lead to Biden’s approval ratings dropping?

    I am missing part of the strategy I think. You are missing way more than that. The strategy can be summed up in one word. GRIFT

    Purple Haze (34bae0)

  22. Some nice information about what is happening.

    https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-787/

    Up to you.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  23. How does killing your own supporters by taking an anti vaccination stance lead to Biden’s approval ratings dropping?

    I am missing part of the strategy I think.

    This is not complicated.

    If people die, the pandemic sticks around, mask mandates stay, business close, etc. during a Biden presidency it hurts Biden.

    Only one major figure is enough of a psychopath that he would be totally fine with increased death and misery as long as it helps him personally. That guy was our last president and wants to be our next one. If Biden is hurt it helps him.

    That is literally all he cares about. Not you, not me, not his wife, not his son, not his children, not his supporters, not anyone. Just himself. He’d feed Barron to the lions if it would win him re-election and he knew nobody would ever find out.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  24. So yeah, I think Donald Trump would be happy to prolong the pandemic to hurt Biden. It’s evident from his July 18 statement equating distrust in the vaccines with distrust in Fake News and the 2020 election results.

    Sorta flies in the face of ‘Operation Warp Speed’ though:

    ‘Operation Warp Speed ( OWS) was a public–private partnership initiated by Donald J Trump to facilitate and accelerate the development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, therapeutics, and diagnostics. The first news report of Operation Warp Speed was on April 29, 2020, and the program was officially announced on May 15, 2020.’ – source, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed

    Biden wasn’t even officially nominated by his party until August, 2020.

    Still…

    A Pill to Treat Covid-19? The U.S. Is Betting on It.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/17/health/covid-pill-antiviral.html

    Dr. Anthony Fauci [advising the Biden Admin.,] announced on Thursday that the White House was investing over $3 billion to advance the development of antiviral pills to treat Covid-19 as well as future virus outbreaks.

    The Long Shadow of the 1976 Swine Flu Vaccine ‘Fiasco’

    Some, but not all, of the hesitance to embrace vaccines can be traced back to this event 40 years ago.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

    The Public Health Legacy of the 1976 Swine Flu Outbreak

    ‘As the historian George Dehner wrote in his 2010 review on the lessons learned from the 1976 flu response, The Swine Flu Program was marred by a series of logistical problems ranging from the production of the wrong vaccine strain to a confrontation over liability protection to a temporal connection of the vaccine and a cluster of deaths among an elderly population in Pittsburgh.’ – https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-public-health-legacy-of-the-1976-swine-flu-outbreak?form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV

    President Plagiarist and his minions have so fouled up and muddled the messaging on this w/t hype of one-now-two-now-three-now-who-knows-how-many-booster-shots vaccine brews, remasking issues an optics- those vaccinated now must/maybe/should-but-not-mandated-to wear masks and so on… as a virus literally mutates monthly. They’re all over the map on this. Hell, his own CDC people have to ‘clarify’ or ‘walk back’ their own statements almost daily. Yet his adminstration can’t pressure the Chinese to nail down the source of this. This isn’t a Trump thing.

    So you can’t blame reasonable ‘folks’ for being wary, skeptical or suspicious of any of President Plagiarist’s proclamations around this… he’s a lousy communicator as it is. It has little to do w/Trump- who initiated the OWS crash program to get some kind of vaccine program up and running to begin with- and during the autumn campaign he and his own VP voiced political spin of suspicions over any Trump messaging about advanced vaccine programs. Biden’s blown it- particularly given his own spinning-18-wheeler history of BS, fabrications and lying. With his decades of government crap shoveling, he’s much more dangerous than NYC’s showman PT Barnum because he knows how to parse, obfuscate and play the game- as all senators do. The guy’s a bum. Recall him saying if he screws up on anything, he’ll simply say he is ‘sorry’– but that won’t heal the sick – or bring back the dead. And profit-driven Big Pharma is making make big, big bucks for itself and stockholders peddling one-shot-two-shot-booster-shot-vaccine batches to the government for months on end chasing a mutating bug until it’s time to drop the pill. Might wanna check on any Biden family interests, too: lots of Big Pharma firms in Delaware, alone.

    There’s a tablet for everything in America. Wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. So Trump IS literally Hitler.

    Good to know…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  26. Only one major figure is enough of a psychopath that he would be totally fine with increased death and misery as long as it helps him personally. That guy…

    Darth Cheney.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. Okay, one more time.

    “…There’s a tablet for everything in America. Wait for the pill….”

    I remember so many stories from you over the years, DCSCA. The Russian embassy soccer field, the fleet of cars, of supposedly meeting von Braun. OMG. So many lies, all to puff yourself up. That’s fine. You are just a bunch of electrons with irritating habits.

    But here, you are contributing to a point of view that will cost lives. You know literally nothing about pharmaceutical science, let alone biology in general. Or God alone help us, epidemiology.

    ANY new drug—including your “pill”—will take years to approve. Unless you fast track it, which is part of what you thought was a problem with the mRNA vaccines or the adenovirus-based J&J vaccines.

    Maybe there will be a therapeutic in the future, when people catch COVID-19. There is not one now. Period. We have vaccines now. For some people, monoclonal antibodies are an option—again, once you have the disease, and it is caught early enough. But the sample sizes of people taking the vaccines is enormous. Small sample sizes tell folks little.

    Patterico, Dana, I apologize for this post. But this nonsense is dangerous. He has a right to speak his opinion, and I have a right to call him on his ignorant and politically motivated foolishness.

    And yes, I know “…and the pig likes it.” But just as Patterico’s own posts have suggested that vaccine hesitancy can costs lives (because it can and does), I had to say something, because of my own background and profession.

    Again, folks, don’t listen to me. Listen to genuine virologists, published epidemiologists, and not political types. OMG. I have given links to genuine scientists and physicians talking about the problems in front of us, and how things change.

    And when someone drops the “wait for the pill” nonsense, ask them specifically how the “pill” works, and the pathways to approval, even under EUA policies. If they don’t truly understand those things, they are just venting hot air.

    Patterico, Dana, feel free to delete this comment if you think it best.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  28. Maybe there will be a therapeutic in the future, when people catch COVID-19. There is not one now.

    I posted this days ago on another pandemic thread here:

    SAN DIEGO — Four San Diego County treatment centers have been busier lately as more residents test positive for COVID-19 and sick people try to avoid a more serious bout with the illness.

    The sites are called Monoclonal Antibody Regional Centers and they’re used to treat people with COVID who are at higher risk for a severe case. That includes people over 65, those with diabetes, kidney disease or high blood pressure, and those who are obese.

    “Amazing results are keeping people out of the hospital, giving them that immune system boost they need,” said Dr. Christian Ramers, an infectious disease specialist with Family Health Centers of San Diego…

    … We are actually quite busy. In fact, we’re scheduling out about two to three days at this point. We’re essentially reaching our capacity, which is a good thing. It’s an incredibly effective therapy,” Ramers said.

    Dr. Ramers says the therapy delivers a 75-85% reduction in the risk of hospitalization. And those who are already vaccinated but still have symptoms can still get the treatment.

    https://fox5sandiego.com/news/covid-19-treatment-clinics-busier-with-spike-in-cases/

    Great news!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  29. 28. ROFLMAOIP =yawn= ‘I remember so many stories from you over the years, DCSCA. The Russian embassy soccer field, the fleet of cars, of supposedly meeting von Braun. OMG.

    Jealous. And really doesn’t refute the issue at hand… so…

    Okay, one more time:

    A Pill to Treat Covid-19? The U.S. Is Betting on It.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/17/health/covid-pill-antiviral.html

    If you wanna enhance your Big Pharma stock portfolio, gov’t research grants or just get pricked, go for it, Jester. But don’t try to jab other people for having the life experience to be skeptical and wary of rushed out vaccines.

    Freedom of choice is a good thing. Try it some time.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. …And when someone drops the “wait for the pill” nonsense…

    Like Dr. Fauci.

    No doubt you’ve been jabbed, Jester. Be sure to keep wearing a mask. Maybe two~ or three- starting August 1.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  31. It’s the magic Trump. Nothing is off the table so any accusation works.

    It’s like star wars fanfic.

    frosty (f27e97)

  32. COVID Pill Treatment Could be Available by End of Year

    By Rebecca Klapper 6/17/21

    Pills used to treat COVID-19 symptoms after infection could be available by the end of the year, U.S. health officials announced Thursday.

    A new program was announced by the Department of Health and Human Services known as the Antiviral Program for Pandemics. The program will help speed up clinical trials of potential drugs that can be used to treat COVID-19 symptoms.

    Should the drugs be approved in the clinical trials, they may start to be available by the end of the year.

    Dr. Anthony Fauci hopes for the drugs to be used when COVID patients first test positive for the virus or develop symptoms. “I wake up in the morning, I don’t feel very well, my sense of smell and taste go away, I get a sore throat,” Fauci said in an interview. “I call up my doctor and I say, ‘I have Covid and I need a prescription.'”

    The United States is devoting $3.2 billion to advance development of antiviral pills for COVID-19, officials said Thursday.

    Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, announced the investment during a White House briefing as part of a new “antiviral program for pandemics” to develop drugs to address symptoms caused by potentially dangerous viruses like the coronavirus.

    https://www.newsweek.com/covid-pill-treatment-could-available-end-year-1601668

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  33. If you want to attack Fauci, it simply reinforced the perception of muddled and mixed messaging from the current administration- yet he was part of the previous administration as well.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. BuDuh,

    Monoclonal antibody therapy is expensive but impressive. It is widely used in some cancer treatments like blood cancers, typically with few side effects. I had monthly MAB treatments in 2012-2013 and again in 2013-2014. I was in remission while being treated but neither lasted.

    My understanding is that it is an infusion of selected antibodies tailored to the disease you have — basically a specially tailored IVIG. It makes sense for at risk Covid patients just as IVIG is used to help people with poor immune systems. I am curious if it is a one-and-done therapy or if it has to be repeated like cancer treatments or IVIG. That would significantly add to the cost. My guess is that nursing home patients are in poor health so the antibodies may not last as long for them, but maybe a short-term boost is enough.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  35. My understanding of the Covid pill is that it is designed to minimize symptoms and duration like Tamiflu.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  36. I was saying a year ago that Trump is an agent of the First Horseman, Pestilence, and he and his muffins (Trumpmuffins that is) seem intent on proving me right.

    nk (1d9030)

  37. It is really fascinating stuff, DRJ. The Science Magazine link is informative. Apparently the antibody cocktail is potent enough that it fights off the vaccine. Also, as they researched using it as a preventative treatment, they decided that it was important to do an antibody test first on the subjects because they were essentially didn’t need more protection.

    In this article they note that the treatment an wipe out the vaccine for 90 days:

    https://www.wsfa.com/2021/03/04/been-treated-with-monoclonal-antibodies-youll-have-wait-days-get-vaccine/

    Powerful stuff.

    As far as the cost, I wonder if that is mitigated due to the Emergency Use Authorization the treatment has received?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  38. Sorry. That was confusing. They do the antibody test because a subject that already has Covid antibodies probably doesn’t need it.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  39. @37. Thing is, given the transience and efficacy of the vaccines as the virus keeps mutating, the messaging is increasingly muddled now. It’s hard to pitch getting vaccinated then to say well, now we’ve discovered you may still get sick after getting pricked and keep wearing a mask. It’s easy to see how they’ll be chasing mutations w/booster after booster after booster w/masks for chasers as well.

    And it is reasonable to be wary and suspicious of Big Pharma’s motivations. They’re makin a lot of money on this an milking it out as long as possible is proitable– and good for stockholders. And it is reasonable to use your own life experience and common sense in making judgements on getting quickie gov’t vaccines. My own experience in 1976 was not good; watching friends get violently ill from bad goop remains a vivid memory. Hence myself and family have avoided getting them -including gov’t flu shots- since then– and we’ve remained healthy. I’m certainly in the high risk group approching 70, and if folks want to get jabbed w/a government quickie- fine, but those who choose not to, especially given their life experience– certainly have the right to avoid it– and wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. If people die, the pandemic sticks around, mask mandates stay, business close, etc. during a Biden presidency it hurts Biden.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t hear anyone in the GOP asking for mask mandates or business closures.

    Hoi Polloi (b28058)

  41. Please forgive me… I am so thankful for being born an American… for my wife, for my children… for my grandchildren… for all of you.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  42. @42. Leading Causes of Death in the U.S.

    •Heart disease
    •Cancer
    •Accidents (unintentional injuries)
    •Chronic lower respiratory diseases
    •Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases)
    •Alzheimer’s disease
    •Diabetes
    •Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis
    •Influenza and pneumonia
    •Intentional self-harm (suicide)

    source, – https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

    Where’s that heart disease vaccine?!?!?!

    Oh. Right. Backordered with the flying cars. Or maybe just being delivered by Joe in his 18-wheeler.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. We know that Trump can probably be blamed for white conservative Americans not getting vaccinated. But what about minorities?

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

    Hoi Polloi (b28058)

  44. I don’t think the Republican Party (or Donald Trump, but I repeat myself) are deliberately trying to prolong the pandemic, it’s just a side effect of their electoral strategy to cater to their conspiracy theory base.

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  45. 45.We know that Trump can probably be blamed for white conservative Americans not getting vaccinated.

    Even though his own initiative via Operation Warp Speed whipped up the goop? There’re more to it than Trump. General suspicion of government; muddled messaging… it’s difficult to have much confidence in a lot of issues today given the collapse of the rule of law, the flamboyance of a PT Barnum or the shifting gears of our 18-wheeler Big Guy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  46. @46. Agree.

    Use the Birchers- then lose them.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. OT. Wow: Caeleb Dressel wins 5th Gold Medal for Team USA; ties Spitz and Phelps record.

    Outstanding.

    USA! USA! USA!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  48. Because of underlying medical conditions, some people are not good candidates for vaccines so it is still important to have effective preventive and treatment options.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  49. Because of underlying medical conditions, some people are not good candidates for vaccines so it is still important to have effective preventive and treatment options.

    So true. I wonder if the people who demand 100% vaccination ever considered that. Additionally, the vaccine is still in trials for the 11 and under crowd and due to the FDA having concerns over what they call “rare” side effects, it has been suggested that that age group will remain unvaccinated until winter 2021/2022.

    I wonder what percentage of the US population that represents? Demanding everyone gets vaccinated is unrealistic.

    BuDuh (b898f8)

  50. 50.Because of underlying medical conditions, some people are not good candidates for vaccines so it is still important to have effective preventive and treatment options.

    Exactly. Have a close friend who cannot tolerate or metabolize most meds – not even aspirin… and especially a quickie vaccine; has to live in house w/hospital level a/c filters, wear mask, gloves–has to leave mail sit for days– wipes down everything; has groceries delivered and even then, must wipe them down. Been doing it for 18 months.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. “Only one major figure is enough of a psychopath that he would be totally fine with increased death and misery as long as it helps him personally. That guy was our last president and wants to be our next one. If Biden is hurt it helps him.

    That is literally all he cares about. Not you, not me, not his wife, not his son, not his children, not his supporters, not anyone. Just himself. He’d feed Barron to the lions if it would win him re-election and he knew nobody would ever find out.”

    Thats quite an opinion

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  52. leading causes of deaths

    #4 is accidents.

    Look up Vision Zero. Its kind of like LA’s current COVID policy
    https://visionzero.geohub.lacity.org/

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  53. One thing that’s left out of all the vaccine discussions is that the experimental ones are on the market now because the pharma companies were given an emergency authorization waiver. They haven’t gone through the full clinical trial tests, and testing on young children only began in March of this year.

    They aren’t like traditional vaccines. Comparing them to polio or smallpox vaccines is a false one. They don’t provide sterilizing immunity (in fact, their function is primarily to mitigate symptoms if you get infected), and it’s been reported that their effectiveness degrades over time, although there’s been a lot of mixed news on this, so who knows how effective they really are over the long-term.

    However, one vaccine that shows promise is in the testing process by Novovax. Unlike the mRNA or the J&J shots, Novovax is trying to get actual FDA approval rather than an emergency use waiver. The vaccine consists of a dead, deactivated spike protein from moth cells and a tree bark adjuvant, but doesn’t express on the cells, and most importantly, doesn’t replicate. Reports on testing have shown that it’s less likely to cause side effects than the current ones, and its construction is similar to the pertussis and Hep B shots, so it’s using a form that’s been successfully employed for decades.

    I’ve mentioned before that I’m vaccinated (J&J), but my wife is not. She’s had serious concerns regarding the limited testing trials, the lack of liability for the pharma companies, side effects that she’s seen people she knows get from them, and possible side effects for herself as well, as she had a birth control implant up until recently. She’s indicated she’d be a lot more likely to get the shot if it had actual FDA approval and if it was more like a traditional vaccine, so hopefully Novavax will be able to get it on the market soon.

    I suspect having a vaccine that’s more like the Hep B or pertussis shots will help close the gap a bit further on people who are holding off on it.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  54. Trump in March

    Former President Donald Trump on Tuesday evening told his supporters to get the COVID-19 vaccine, saying it is a safe shot that works.

    “I would recommend it and I would recommend it to a lot of people that don’t want to get it and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly,” Trump told “Fox News Primetime.”

    Still, he continued: “But it is a great vaccine. It is a safe vaccine and it is something that works.”

    That’s some dastardly plan he has to convince everyone to not get the vaccine to make JB look bad.

    frosty (f27e97)

  55. That’s some dastardly plan he has to convince everyone to not get the vaccine to make JB look bad.

    frosty (f27e97) — 7/31/2021 @ 9:14 pm

    I’ve long thought he should have come out in favor of universal health care, just to get the Democrats and the neocons to argue that Medicare and Medicaid were getting too expensive and that we needed to return to a cash-dominant system. Or proposing to double the budget of the National Park Service to get them to argue that we don’t need more park rangers and that the current facilities are adequate as they are.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  56. He’d feed Barron to the lions if it would win him re-election and he knew nobody would ever find out.

    True. Sadly, he’s not the first candidate who would do that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. @59. Nah. Tiffany, maybe.

    But at least he wouldn’t date Barron. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  58. COVID Pill Treatment Could be Available by End of Year

    Right up there with “We should have fusion by 1995!”

    Let’s say that some really good anti-viral drugs are in the offing. Which do you think will get approved first: a drug that has been going through the approval process for 5 years to help with AIDS, or some quickie drug to cure spiteful Trump supporters with Covid?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. That’s some dastardly plan he has to convince everyone to not get the vaccine to make JB look bad.

    Lunch-bucket-18-wheeler-truck-drivin’-Joey don’t need no help lookin’ kick-azz bad when he sees hizzelf in them aviators in the cab of a ‘Jimmy’ haulin’ hogs, ‘on I-one-oh ’bout a mile outta Shaky Town.’

    A man’s man, that Convoy Joe!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  60. @61. ROFLMAO Fauci Fibs?!? Film at 11.

    They say it will rain Thursday… but just where do your park your flying car, Kev? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  61. Politics is awful.

    Only if you can’t play the game; and it depends on if you’re pitching— or catching:

    “It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.” – Ronald Reagan

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. @61. “Right up there with, “I used to drive an 18-wheeler, man.”

    FIFY

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  63. Only way Ill vote again is for somebody worse than Trump.

    mg (8cbc69)

  64. This is our gubmint –
    Absolutely do not wear a mask

    You must, must, must wear a mask or you’re killing Grandma
    Don’t leave the house or you’re killing Grandma
    If you can’t avoid leaving the house, stay at least six feet away from any other human being you see or you’re killing Grandma
    Wash your hands 20 times a day
    Do not touch your face or anything else, ever
    Get vaccinated so you don’t have to wear a mask
    You have to wear a mask even if you’re vaccinated
    When the above rules change, and then change back, and then change back again, shut up about it or you’re a stupid MAGA-head
    Don’t forget to vote Democrat.

    mg (8cbc69)

  65. “I’m vaccinated” is the new “I’m vegan”

    I think the point is it is liberal trendy to be vegan and now its liberal trendy to be vaccinated, so people say they are vaccinated when they are not and they self identify as “vaccinated”.
    Its the Tom Bradley effect.

    Democrat chatterers are constantly saying that all of the Democrats in House and Senate are vaccination verified. Turns out that “verified” now means means “self identified as”.
    Maybe they are “vaccination fluid”.
    They cite studies that say Trump voters are not vaccinating, or that say cases are surging in red states but don’t supply death rates per 100,000. NJ, NY, MASS, RI all are ahead of MS in death rate per 100,000. CA and FLA are in the best 25 and FLA’s rate is 10% higher than CA.
    This death rate per 100,000 is the only stat that really matters and you can figure that the deaths should break down Biden Trump more or less how the state vote % went

    These other Red vs Blue vaccine aversion studies are polling, which is at best anecdotal evidence. There are polling studies that say that 12% more Democrats self identify as vaccinated than the Trump people do.

    LA County has a vax rate of 62% as of data 7-25-2021. 5,195,430 total out of an eligible population of 8.3M
    http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm

    In LA County, the unaffiliated vaccine eligible residents slightly exceed the # of combined Biden and Trump voters, so it is almost impossible to verify claims of Biden voters about their high rates of vaccinations and hard to verify the 12% “lead” Democrats supposedly hold over Trump supporters.
    So I came up with this… which may be way off, but I took data on all ethnic groups on the progression chart on the LA Covid site.
    I looked at the progression chart at the link and did rounded calculations on how many people eligible for vaccines were left in each ethnic group.
    For example there are the following common people groups that remain unvaccinated in LA County as of 7-25 in these numbers:
    800,000 White
    345,000 Black
    250,000 Asian
    2,000,000 Hispanic
    Team Biden has an overhang looming on its horizon. It has more people left on the board than there were Trump voters in total.

    There is another problem.
    The LA site shows the following progressions by January 2022 and leveling off:
    White Top out at 75% leaving 500,000 unvaccinated
    Black Top out at 60% Leaving 250,000
    Asian Top out at 85% Leaving 180,000
    Hispanic Top out at 65% Leaving 1,400,000

    Its possible the remaining 500,000 unvaccinated white people will all be white males who voted for Trump but I doubt it

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  66. That is an interesting breakdown, Steve. It made me think about how many times the “historic firsts” of certain ethnic groups is portrayed as a powerful message of progress. Here is an example:

    Xavier Becerra is the 25th Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services and the first Latino to hold the office in the history of the United States. As Secretary, he will carry out President Biden’s vision to build a healthy America, and his work will focus on ensuring that all Americans have health security and access to healthcare.

    https://www.hhs.gov/about/leadership/xavier-becerra.html

    Wow! First sentence billing on his ethnicity. Unfortunately It seems obvious now that such a highly touted quality doesn’t really mean squat when it comes to the health of the Latino community. But the box gets checked anyways.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  67. DC Mayor Bowser officiates maskless indoor wedding after reinstated mask mandate

    Fewer than 24 hours after Washington, D.C., Mayor Muriel Bowser celebrated her 49th birthday with a DJ and comedian Dave Chappelle, she officiated a wedding at The Line DC, a four-star hotel in the Adams Morgan neighborhood of the city.

    Despite the mayor’s order, the wedding reception featured hundreds of unmasked guests served by dozens of wait staff, including a conspicuously unmasked Bowser.

    Bowser, who was not sitting at the table designated for her during wedding toasts, did not wear a mask despite not actively eating or drinking. When approached by the Washington Examiner to explain why she was maskless at an event now legally obligated to enforce mask compliance, security blockaded the free press.

    At least 3 out of 5 adults in the district and 3 in 4 seniors have been vaccinated. Even with the delta variant of the coronavirus, vaccination has proven eminently effective, even more so than masks. Of the nearly 400,000 district residents fully vaccinated against the pandemic, just four (all of whom were elderly or had preexisting conditions) died.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dc-mayor-bowser-officiates-maskless-indoor-wedding-after-reinstated-mask-mandate

    Is she prolonging the pandemic for political reasons?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  68. Patterico – Here’s a related question to which I do not know the answer: Is Tucker Carlson trying to prolong the pandemic?

    Or is he simply indifferent to the consequences of his arguments?

    (I don’t have cable, and wouldn’t often watch the opinion programs on it, if I did. But I do check out Mediate regularly, just to see what’s going wrong.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  69. BuDuh:

    “I wonder if the people who demand 100% vaccination ever considered that.”

    Medical professionals are well aware of the people who cannot generate an immune response to vaccines or who are at a high risk for adverse reactions. That is why we have the concept of herd immunity.

    DCSCA: I understand 18 months seems like a long time. Our son is severely immune compromised. My son and I have lived this way for the last 30 years and will do it until either he or I die.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  70. Medical professionals are well aware of the people who cannot generate an immune response to vaccines or who are at a high risk for adverse reactions.

    I didn’t mean to impugn the actual professionals that understand the problem. I was being critical of the people who don’t understand the difficulties of achieving complete and total vaccination.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  71. @72. Sympathize deeply you, DRJ. Covid only added to my friend’s daily struggle. Even when the world was ‘normal’ it’s a difficult way to exist day-to-day. Endless testing for even a fraction of a med to possibly tolerate, too. Not even able to handle a quarter tab of children’s aspirin…

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  72. DrJ – You have my respect, and my sympathy.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  73. I assumed you understood that, BuDuh. That some don’t understand it is not a big deal to me. We need to help them understand. No one knows everything.

    That is common with the medically fragile, DCSCA.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  74. I appreciate the compassion but ours is a happy story, not a sad one. God helped us find the medical cause that claimed many of my ancestors’ lives. Our son is alive today as a result. It can be challenging but it is better than the alternative.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  75. BuDuh,

    read some more about the hypocrite DC mayor Bowser. After the mask mandate went back into effect she officiated another event maskless. When questioned about it, her people got involved as she ran away.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  76. @77. My friend is on a three month waiting list now for tolerance testing to even attempt to try a smidgeon of… penicillin no less. Just one of many, many tests. Most average, healthy people don’t comprehend the maze of worries in managing this sort of thing– or the fear of inadvertently injesting something or a derivative that might trigger a bad reaction.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  77. I’m vaccinated (though not vegan), but I’ll have to return to masking when the semester begins in a couple of weeks. Not to protect myself, mind you, but to protect the vaccine refuse-niks. They’ve invented a straw man that goes around FORCING people to get the vaccine. Of course, no such person exists, but it makes for a good rallying cry for idiots like Lauren Boebert. Who the hell is forcing her to do anything? She has a perfect right to be a selfish idiot and to encourage others to be, and I have a perfect right to call her a selfish idiot. So, I have to go back to mask wearing to protect selfish idiots from any viral load I, as a vaccinated person, might happen to carry. This vaccine has received far more scrutiny that any that has been approved, and millions of people have received it (far more than in any clinical trial in history). The mask mandate where I work only aggravates my seething resentment toward the refuse-niks. Just get the damn vaccine!

    Roger (e34354)

  78. “There’s risk in being alive today.” – Dr. Francis Collins, NIH Director

    And he thinks that’s helpful messaging?

    Unreal.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  79. @80. Been wearing a mask since February, 2020.

    It’s no big deal.

    So deal with it.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. Not to protect myself, mind you, but to protect the vaccine refuse-niks.

    Are the selfish idiot refuse-niks asking for your help, Roger? You are fully protected and incapable of getting infected and the only people cramping your style are the law makers that are forcing you to wear a mask.

    Also, are people with doctor approved exemptions from the vaccine, and children not yet approved, in the group “refuse-niks?”

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  81. National Institutes of Health director Dr. Francis Collins said Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union” that he supports business requiring proof of vaccination for customers.

    Anchor Jake Tapper said, “Some businesses are going a step further and requiring proof of vaccinations not just for employees, but even for customers in some cases. Audience members for broadway plays and musicals need to be vaccinated. Some bars in San Francisco and D.C. are requiring proof of vaccinations. Do you think as a public health measure it would be good for more businesses to require vaccine credentials in order to have vaccinated customers?”

    Collins said, “As a public health person who wants to see this pandemic end, yes. I think anything we can do to encourage reluctant folks to get vaccinated because they’ll want to be part of these public events, that’s a good thing. I’m delighted to see employers like Disney and Walmart coming out and asking their staff to be vaccinated. I’m glad to see the president has said all federal employees. I oversee NIH. With 40,000 people need to get vaccinated or if they’re not to get regular testing which is inconvenient. All of those steps, I think is in the right direction. Maybe that’s what it will take for some of those who have still been a little reluctant to say, okay, it’s time. The data will support the decision. They are making the right choice for their own safety. Sometimes it takes a nudge.”

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/08/01/nih-director-collins-businesses-should-require-vaccine-credentials-for-customers/

    Phase II, to satisfy the fully protected, like Roger, will need to be an “Immunodeficiency Card.” Followed by bringing in birth certificates so service can be denied to those who are 11 and under.

    Health and safety and all that…

    Just get the damn vaccine!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  82. JF (e1156d) — 7/31/2021 @ 1:23 pm

    and no post yet asking whether democrats are deliberately trying to spread the virus through their carefully crafted flaunting of the law and title 42 at the border

    That didn’t do it, but their attempts to slow down approval of treatments and vaccines and make sure nothing was authorized before Election Day might be more solid.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/biden-demands-trump-let-coronavirus-vaccine-process-happen-free-political-n1235040

    Former Vice President Joe Biden said Monday that President Donald Trump must allow the coronavirus vaccine development process to play out “free of political pressure” and called on the president to adhere to three rules as scientists rush to develop one.

    Dubbing them the “three principles of integrity” in developing a vaccine, Biden, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, demanded that Trump allow scientists and public health experts to make decisions on safety and efficacy — not politicians.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/09/08/910797792/president-trump-pushes-unrealistic-vaccine-timeline-in-effort-to-win-votes

    Pressed on whether he was politicizing vaccine development by suggesting that a vaccine could come before election day (very unlikely), President Trump insisted his pitch was that a vaccine would be available by the end of the year, and that he was just saying it may be possible by late October or early November.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-10-09/q-a-how-far-can-trump-go-in-pushing-a-covid-19-vaccine-that-isnt-ready

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  83. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/us/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine.html

    …Thrusting the issue of a coronavirus vaccine to the center of the campaign, Joe Biden said he trusted vaccines, but not a politicized development process. His comments came as the president publicly rebuked the top federal scientist….

    …Let me be clear: I trust vaccines,” Mr. Biden said. “I trust scientists. But I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either.”

    Shortly after Mr. Biden’s speech in Wilmington, Del., Mr. Trump seemed to lend credence to the former vice president’s criticism by publicly rebuking the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for saying that widespread vaccination might not be possible until the middle of next year. Speaking during an evening briefing at the White House, the president also kept up an attack line against Mr. Biden, misleadingly accusing him of “promoting his anti-vaccine theories.”

    ….The president’s comments that one could be rolled out before Nov. 3 have unsettled health officials, who worry that Mr. Trump is creating the impression that a vaccine might not be properly vetted at a time when the public is already concerned about political interference in the approval process.

    The president accused Mr. Biden last week of using the pandemic “for political gain” and falsely claimed that his opponent had “launched a public campaign” against a coronavirus vaccine.
    And Senator Kamala Harris of California, Mr. Biden’s running mate, said this month that if Mr. Trump assured the nation that a vaccine was safe, she would “not take his word for it….

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  84. Trump. of course, could not get people, who had their own reputations at stake, to support a vaccine that they didn’t believe in.

    I suppose what you feel depends on whether you think all the bells and whistles and hoops that medical treatments have to go through are really necessary and are foolproof.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  85. This vaccine has received far more scrutiny that any that has been approved,

    Was this scrutiny before or after the manufacturers recommend a third shot?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  86. Gov. Ron DeSantis signed an executive order Friday that effectively bans school systems from establishing mask mandates in response to rising COVID-19 cases.

    In a press conference Friday, DeSantis said his order would have the Florida Departments of Education and Department of Health create rules that would keep masks wearing up to a parent’s decision.

    The order itself states the departments will now make the rules to keep COVID-19 protocols from violating constitutional freedoms, parents’ right to make health care decisions for their children, and protect children with disabilities from being harmed by mask mandates.

    https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/live-gov-desantis-holds-press-conference-in-cape-coral/

    It’s this kind of inspired leadership that led to Florida generating 20% of the nationwide covid cases over the last few days.

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  87. FDA vows ‘all hands on deck’ effort to get Pfizer coronavirus vaccine full approval as quickly as possible
    ………

    “We have rolled out an all hands on deck” strategy to identify ways to expedite approval of the vaccine, which is currently being administered under the FDA’s emergency use authority, said Peter Marks, director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, in an interview.

    He said the center — which, in addition to overseeing vaccines, regulates biologics, stem cells and gene therapies — is “thoughtfully reprioritizing” its work to focus on the vaccine as much as possible. Pfizer received emergency authorization for its two-shot vaccine in December and applied to the FDA for full approval May 7.

    Moderna, whose vaccine also is being administered under emergency authorization, filed for full FDA approval June 1. Typically, it takes the agency at least several months to grant a full approval for a vaccine.
    Marks would not speculate on when the FDA might grant full approval, but some agency officials have suggested it could be a matter of weeks, not months.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  88. Guess who is married to actress Diane Baker?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)


  89. This vaccine has received far more scrutiny that any that has been approved,

    Was this scrutiny before or after the manufacturers recommend a third shot?

    BuDuh (7bca93) — 8/1/2021 @ 11:46 am

    Before.

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  90. So most of the vaccinated knew that a third shot was a distinct possibility? I have yet to meet any vaccinated person that was told that.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  91. “I’m vaccinated” is the new “I’m not an idiot”

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. I apologize, Rip. I misunderstood your comment.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  93. “I wonder if the people who demand 100% vaccination ever considered that.”

    80% would be fine by me.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. Dr. Fauci predicts Covid cases will rise Anthony Fauci Warns on Covid-19 That ‘Things Are Going to Get Worse’
    ……….
    “We are looking, not I believe, to lockdown but we are looking to some pain and suffering in the future because we are seeing the cases go up,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said Sunday on ABC’s “This Week.” He added, “The solution to this is, get vaccinated.”

    The latest statistics from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show a 64.1% increase in Covid cases over the week ended July 30 compared with the previous week, or an average of 66,606 cases a day. The CDC reported a current seven-day average of 6,071 new admissions of hospital patients with Covid-19, a 44% increase over the average for the week of July 16-22. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky previously has said that more than 97% of Covid patients entering the hospital nationwide were unvaccinated.
    …….
    Appearing Sunday on CNN’s “State of the Union,” Francis S. Collins, director of the National Institutes of Health, said the new guidelines are “mostly about protecting the unvaccinated.”
    …….
    While the number of cases in the U.S. had climbed, the number of Americans getting vaccinated also surged, particularly in states like Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi, where the rates of vaccination were lower, the officials said. Roughly 60% of eligible Americans are fully vaccinated.
    >>>>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  95. “I’m vaccinated” is the new “I’m not an idiot”

    FIFY

    IOW the immunodeficient and children 11 and under are idiots.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  96. Too bad Fauci didn’t give us the low down on deaths. They certainly must be skyrocketing.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  97. @88. Something just doesn’t sem quite kosher about all this; Big Pharma is essentially ‘chasing’ the bug as it merrily mutates along, milking the government for $, contracting for batch after batch and booster after booster until a time to drop the cheaper pill. Peddle the hardcover as long as you can– then release the paperback.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  98. @93 When my wife and I got our COVID-19 vaccinations, we both expected that we would need to get additional vaccinations in the future, much as we receive for influenza and pneumonia. I believe that many vaccine recipients understand that the virus is still being studied and can mutate, and that vaccines and threaputics for the COVID virus will continue to evolve.

    John B Boddie (026da3)


  99. >> This vaccine has received far more scrutiny that any that has been approved,

    Was this scrutiny before or after the manufacturers recommend a third shot?

    Non-sequitur. Approval requires two things:

    1) Is it safe, at least for those it is approved for?
    2) Is it effective for what it is to treat?

    All vaccines so far available have certainly passed #2 — it does provide significant resistance to serious disease for most strains, at a bare minimum. Probably much better than that. If resistance to a new strain might be enhanced by a third shot, that does not mean it isn’t effective.

    There is a long-term question wrt #1, but is seems likely that it passes that, too. As time goes on with no statistically significant bad results, they will get full approval.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. IOW the immunodeficient and children 11 and under are idiots.

    No, but if that’s your take-away ….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. Non-sequitur.

    Maybe you should read the comment of the person that question was directed towards.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  102. Do you think children 11 and under, and the immunodeficient total more of less than 20% of the US population, Kevin?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  103. 93.So most of the vaccinated knew that a third shot was a distinct possibility? I have yet to meet any vaccinated person that was told that.

    Exactly. 3,4,5… booster after booster… they’re setting up a pattern w/no end to it; a lucrative business plan.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  104. BTW, a good friend of mine is fighting lymphoma. His immune system is savaged by vearious treatments. Yet he got the (Pfizer) vaccine as soon as he was able, even though the protection was minimal. Why? Because minimal does not mean zero, and getting the actual disease would be life-threatening.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. …more or less than…

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  106. @89 a democrat is president, so it’s time to blame governors

    JF (e1156d)

  107. 71. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 8/1/2021 @ 7:50 am

    Is Tucker Carlson trying to prolong the pandemic?

    Ticker Carlson is most likely trying to keep his job, for which he may feel he needs to maintain a certain public persona. He refuses to say whether or not he got a vaccine, let alone the reasons why or why not.

    https://time.com/6080432/tucker-carlson-profile

    Or is he simply indifferent to the consequences of his arguments?

    (I don’t have cable, and wouldn’t often watch the opinion programs on it, if I did. But I do check out Mediate regularly, just to see what’s going wrong.)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  108. I have yet to meet any vaccinated person that was told that.

    Yeah, I got that flu shot and now they want me to get a shingles shot! No one said that I’d need a shingles shot when they gave me the flu one! Ahd worse, they want me to get another flu shot! What is wrong with these people?!?!?!?!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. Sorry for overquoting.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  110. Yeah, I got that flu shot and now they want me to get a shingles shot!

    Proof that you do know how to draft a non-sequitur. :-)

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  111. ‘…now they want me to get a shingles shot!’

    There’s a pill for it.

    Inexpensive; took it– 20 years ago.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  112. “@89 a democrat is president, so it’s time to blame governors”

    Lol, you’re ridiculous.

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  113. Thomas Massie
    @RepThomasMassie
    ·
    3h
    Several months ago, I tweeted that Facebook’s vaccine fact checker was funded by an organization that holds $1.8 billion of vaccine manufacturer stock.

    I feel obligated to correct that statement. I was using last year’s valuation.

    The value of that stock is now over $2 billion.

    On that note, I’m outta here.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  114. 68. steveg (ebe7c1) — 8/1/2021 @ 3:35 am

    Its possible the remaining 500,000 unvaccinated white people will all be white males who voted for Trump but I doubt it

    The New York Times has a front page story saying there are two different kinds of unvaccinated people, only one of which are Republicans. The Democrats, it says, are less adamant.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html

    It turns out, though, that this is not a single set of Americans, but in many ways two.

    In one group are those who say they are adamant in their refusal of the coronavirus vaccines; they include a mix of people but tend to be disproportionately white, rural, evangelical Christian and politically conservative, surveys show.

    In the other are those who say they are open to getting a shot but have been putting it off or want to wait and see before making a decision; they are a broad range of people, but tend to be a more diverse and urban group, including many younger people, Black and Latino Americans, and Democrats.

    With cases surging and hospitalizations rising, health officials are making progress in inoculating this second group, who surveys suggest account for less than half of all unvaccinated adults in the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  115. Proof that you do know how to draft a non-sequitur

    Also that I know how to mock. :-)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. The New York Times has a front page story saying there are two different kinds of unvaccinated people, only one of which are Republicans. The Democrats, it says, are less adamant.

    I read that, and noted that while they attribute the Republican attitudes to Trump, they neglect to discuss how Kamala and others talked up the “untested” nature of any vaccine before the election. It is no surprise to me that people who supported her continue to have reservations and it may account for the very slow uptake among African-Americans.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. Maybe you should read the comment of the person that question was directed towards.

    Since a third shot for Delta has nothing to do with approval of the vaccine for the strains then present, it was a non-sequitur.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. Why People Remain Unvaccinated

    Reasons given by the vaccine hesitant for not yet getting a shot.

    Note: People could select more than one answer.Source: Census Household Pulse Survey, July 5, 2021
    By The New York Times

    Side effects: 53%

    Waiting to see if safe: 40%

    Don’t trust vaccines: 37%

    Don’t trust government:27%

    Don’t believe I need it: 26%

    Other: 16%

    Think other people need it more: 12%

    Don’t like vaccines: 10%

    Doctor has not recommended: 7%

    Concerned about cost: 3%
    ———————————–

    What May Motivate the Unvaccinated to Get a Shot

    Share of people who say these incentives would make them more likely to get vaccinated.

    Source: Kaiser Family Foundation survey, June By The New York Times

    Full FDA approval: Wait and See 48% Definitely not 8%

    Available from personal physician: Wait and See 46% Definitely not 10%

    Required to fly: Wait and See 41% Definitely not 11%

    Required for large gatherings: Wait and See 40% Definitely not 8%

    $100 cash: Wait and See 14% Definitely not 1%

    Free transportation: Wait and See 12% Definitely not 11%

    Free event tickets: Wait and See 13% Definitely not 1%

    $20 food coupon: Wait and See 9% Definitely not 1%

    ——————————————————————–

    The Wait and See people split 41-39, Republican/Democrat; the Definitely not people split 67-12 Republican Democrat

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  119. I think we have to be careful that in asserting what the GOP’s intent is. Trump’s intent is clear, that he’ll say or do anything to become president, including to try to corrupt an Acting AG to steal an election. Since he has no moral compass, breaking the law or putting peoples’ lives at risk won’t deter him.
    The intent of most of the GOP is to follow Trump, which is misguided, to put it mildly. There are too many otherwise conservative folks who’ve bought into too much disinformation and propaganda.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  120. “We have rolled out an all hands on deck” strategy to identify ways to expedite approval of the vaccine

    They are not skipping a single step.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  121. 122. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 12:58 pm.

    Trump’s intent is clear, that he’ll say or do anything to become president, including to try to corrupt an Acting AG to steal an election.

    What he did there is to ask the Acting Attorney General to issue a general statement, without trying to back it up, and he said he and Republicans in Congress would carry the ball further.

    Since he has no moral compass, breaking the law or putting peoples’ lives at risk won’t deter him.

    Breaking the law is a possible problem for him, because of possible punishment. He’ll only do it when he judges it safe.

    The intent of most of the GOP is to follow Trump, which is misguided, to put it mildly.

    According to Ross Douthat, it seems they can disagree with Trump as long as they don’t call attention to the fact that Trump is on the other side, and they don’t need his endorsement to win elections; but they can’t challenge him personally.

    Nobody imagines that a House infrastructure vote or a “random House election” is a referendum on Donald Trump. But in a presidential primary?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-2024.html

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  122. Is Tucker Carlson trying to prolong the pandemic?

    Wiser question: Is Big Pharma ?????$$$$$?????$$$$$?????

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  123. 41. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/31/2021 @ 5:55 pm

    It’s hard to pitch getting vaccinated then to say well, now we’ve discovered you may still get sick after getting pricked and keep wearing a mask.

    They’re now saying: WE never said that a vaccine was supposed to totally prevent it – just keep someone from serious disease and out of the hospital.

    It’s easy to see how they’ll be chasing mutations w/booster after booster after booster w/masks for chasers as well.

    There’s not too many mutations, and the vaccine is targeted to a part of the virus thta can’t mutaate mch without losing the ability to infect. There is also, long delayed, some kind of a plan/research for a flu vaccine that will work on all versions of influenza.

    The monoclonal antibodies sound very safe, but they can be too limited (only one or two antibodies, thanks to fear of not getting government approval) so they don’t cover all variants and of course it is a matter of half a year or more replacing them even though they know within a week of discovering the variant what to do.

    And you have to take it in a timely manner

    I keep on hearng this thing about getting vaccinated after getting the disease. Possibly useful, but not immediately after recovering..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  124. I am so suspicious of the FDA that I think they may have approved that Alzheimer’s drug that is based on the wrong theory of Alzheimer’s, and does little or nothing and has serious side effects in order so they should get less pressure to approve something, based on another theory, that works.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  125. One thing that’s left out of all the vaccine discussions is that the experimental ones are on the market now because the pharma companies were given an emergency authorization waiver. They haven’t gone through the full clinical trial tests, and testing on young children only began in March of this year.

    This is false. The vaccines aren’t “experimental” and they’ve have gone through all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  126. frosty, the part that you left out in your “Trump in March” comment was this:

    Trump, who was quietly vaccinated in January, added that “we have our freedoms and we have to live by that and I agree with that also.”

    It wasn’t an unqualified endorsement, because he basically said, “get the vaccine, but it’s okay if you don’t. You do you”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  127. 128. This is false. The vaccines aren’t “experimental” and they’ve have gone through all the necessary clinical trials.

    That’s a bit misleading-they go through ‘trials’ but not quite as rigorous as you’d routinely expect:

    ‘FDA may allow the use of unapproved medical products, or unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. Taking into consideration input from the FDA, manufacturers decide whether and when to submit an EUA request to FDA.’

    It’s all spelled out here but there are areas where some higher risk, ‘broken field running’ can occur addressing an ’emergency.’ There’s “wiggle room”:

    https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  128. What he did there is to ask the Acting Attorney General to issue a general statement…

    Sammy, this is you again bending over backwards to defend the indefensible. Trump was asking Rosen to deliver a false statement to the American people, a lie, all in furtherance of his personal ambition to reverse an electoral result, millions of legitimate popular votes be damned. He was already impeached once, with no sign that he learned from his prior lawbreaking.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  129. @126. There are plenty of letters in the Greek alphabet, Sammy.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  130. Say goodbye to persuasion: Vaccine mandates may be coming — but will they be legal?
    ………
    This month was a clear break from persuasion and a step toward coercion in dealing with those who refuse to be vaccinated. Even the normally staid Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is ramping up its rhetoric, declaring that the “war has changed” due to the Delta variant. For some, however, there is concern that Biden’s “they” is a declaration of war on them.

    Clearly, there is a rapidly diminishing level of communication between the “vacs” and “non-vacs.”

    Stage One: Reasoned consent

    Until recently, the Biden administration relied largely on what could be called the “reasoned consent” model. Not unreasonably, it assumed that Americans would want the vaccine, given the dire consequences of being unvaccinated. But this first stage was in some regards a failure: While more than 85 percent of the high-risk population of older Americans have been vaccinated, roughly half of the wider population has not been fully vaccinated.
    ……..
    Stage Two: Induced consent
    ……..
    Government officials then shifted from reasoned to induced or compensated consent. In Ohio, $1 million lottery prizes were offered to those willing to take the shots; other states offered free metro or free museum passes. It didn’t work — but that didn’t stop President Biden this week from telling states to use federal funds to offer $100 for every person who consents to take a shot. It is the monetization of vaccination under the logic that those not motivated by self-preservation will be persuaded by a C-note.
    ……
    Stage Three: Coerced consent

    We are now entering the “coerced consent” stage……..
    ……..
    Unwilling to face the legal or political challenges of mandating a vaccination program, the Biden administration has actively encouraged companies to bar unvaccinated people from planes, restaurants and other venues. The danger is that using companies to censor opposing views and restrict people can amount to a type of government-by-surrogate, a shadow state.
    ………
    More concerning are those calls to use mandates to make life miserable for anyone who still has doubts…….

    For the most part, the motivation behind government and private mandates are hard to litigate. Courts tend to defer to measures ostensibly protecting others from risk of illness; even in criminal cases, the government has been allowed to conduct “pretextual traffic stops” if it can cite an objective basis.

    There may be new legal challenges ahead, however. First, those with religious or medical concerns can challenge mandated vaccination programs.……. In truth, there are constitutional questions when you force people to take medications or vaccinations that violate their religious beliefs or that fail to satisfy a rational basis.
    ……..
    The greatest danger with the coercion model is that it will further deepen our divisions and turn vaccine resistance into a type of patriotic resistance for some people. Recently, a shocking poll found that almost 50 percent of Republicans believe “patriotic Americans [might] have to take the law into their own hands.” The poll shows how many Americans are increasingly alienated from the government, the media and the established order. Conversely, some commentators on the left have declared that the unvaccinated are terrorists using “biological warfare” against the nation.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  131. @129 so, we’re at trump endorsed the vaccine, said it was great, but he gave a nod to our anti tyrannical traditions and so we’re circling back to he hates the vaccine and wants everyone to die so biden looks bad

    only three countries (uae, malta and iceland) are at 70% and above

    only nine are above 60%

    i can’t figure out which trump message is getting out there but it must be bad and the world is in a maga frenzy

    JF (e1156d)

  132. 131. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 2:07 pm

    Sammy, this is you again bending over backwards to defend the indefensible. Trump was asking Rosen to deliver a false statement to the American people, a lie,

    Yes, but that’s all he was doing. It’s been characterized as something a little bit worse.

    all in furtherance of his personal ambition to reverse an electoral result, millions of legitimate popular votes be damned. He was already impeached once, with no sign that he learned from his prior lawbreaking.

    What he learned was it is hard to get a 2/3 vote in the Senate. The impeachment had inaccurately construed what Trump had done, so there was no lesson for him to learn.

    I think at that stage, after the election, Trump was not concerned about impeachment – he was concerned about his term expiring and not getting a new one.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  133. @133. A fella who’s been passing himself off as ‘lunch-bucket-average-joe’ for decades then blatantly lies about hauling azz driving an 18-wheeler isn’t going to “reason/induce/coerce consent.” He’s blown it; he’s a bum.

    Conversely, some commentators on the left have declared that the unvaccinated are terrorists using “biological warfare” against the nation.

    Blame the victims, eh?! The lab rats funded by -insert government bureaucrat name/names here- are the germ warfare culprits. Cooking up this crap putting 10 billion humans at risk, existing in a shell of livable gases, just 5 miles deep at best, is utter insanity.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  134. Also Trump didn’t indicate to the acting Attorney General that he knew it would be a false statement. He claimed to be getting information from the Internet.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  135. Maybe With Delta the CDC Will Learn to Count
    In Britain, they know 92% of the public has antibodies; here we panic in the dark.

    By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr.
    July 30, 2021 5:57 pm ET

    Britain has seen its Delta surge wane rather quickly. And unlike the U.S., it is not flopping around in the half-dark about what’s going on. Thanks to biweekly blood-sample surveys, the U.K. government knows how many people have antibodies from vaccination and/or infection. Thanks to surveys and modeling it also has a good idea how many are currently infected, invariably a multiple of those who get a positive test.

    This is infinitely more useful and relevant than any information U.S. authorities produce, a point starting to break through thanks to former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb’s appearances on CNBC.

    Of particular interest are the antibodies of younger Brits, a majority of whom until recent days had yet to be vaccinated. As of June 14, 31.7% between the ages of 16 and 24 reported receiving the vaccine; 59.7% tested positive for Covid antibodies. Because older groups rushed to be vaccinated, this helped authorities understand the extent of natural immunity. For the record, 92% of Brits now show evidence of antibodies.

    And America? Weirdly, we had to rely on guerilla statisticians like Youyang Gu of MIT to know how many might have had Covid. Models are imperfect but they bring us closer to the truth than “trackers” that currently highlight a total of 35 million positive tests, when it’s highly probable that at least 130 million Americans have contracted the virus. As for the antibody total that would tell us how near we are to herd immunity, forget it…

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/delta-variant-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-natural-immunity-herd-11627679672

    That is as much as I can quote without a subscription.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  136. Mask mandates violate religious liberty by hiding faces made in God’s image, Catholic school says
    …….
    In a case (heard on Wednesday, July 21, 2021), attorneys for Resurrection School in Lansing and two parents will tell the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit that Catholic doctrine holds that every person is made in God’s image.

    “Unfortunately, a mask shields our humanity,” the school argued in its lawsuit. “And because God created us in His image, we are masking that image.”
    ………
    Resurrection School thinks mask-wearing interferes with the institution’s mission of giving its students a Catholic education. The school’s lawsuit argued that in addition to physically blocking God’s image, face coverings make people anti-social and interfere with relationships. The Catholic faith teaches that people are relational beings and that these relationships mirror the relationship between God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit — believed to be three people, but one God.

    “A mask is disruptive to this essential element of the Catholic faith, and it is disruptive to the teaching of young children for these and other reasons,” the school concluded.

    Resurrection School added that some students experience discomfort and difficulty breathing and speaking when they wear masks. In addition, the school argued, wearing masks “conveys the message that the wearer has surrendered his or her freedom to the government.”
    ………
    The idea that human beings are created in God’s image is central to Catholicism and several other faiths. It is understood to be an affirmation that every person has intrinsic value, said M. Therese Lysaught, a professor at the Neiswanger Institute for Bioethics and Health Policy at Loyola University Chicago. She said the concept requires that believers honor God’s image in other people and act as God’s image themselves.

    Sincerely arguing that wearing a mask obscures God’s image would also require contending that women shield God’s image when they wear veils to Mass or that surgeons do so when they operate, Lysaught said………
    ……..
    …….. The district-court judge seemed to accept in his ruling that the plaintiff’s beliefs were sincere, said Sarah Barringer Gordon, a constitutional law professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

    The judge still denied the school’s request to stop enforcement of the mask mandate because he found the rule was neutrally applied and did not target religious schools. But Gordon said some recent court rulings seem to favor a more rigorous requirement that laws limiting religious exercise must address a compelling government interest.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  137. @133 coerced consent and a vaccine mandate are both genius

    this will solve two thorny problems at once: 1) covid spread, and 2) illegal immigration, when biden starts enthusiastically enforcing this at the border

    win win!!

    JF (e1156d)

  138. BTW, my corrected link about the vaccine not being an “experiment” and such is here.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  139. ……. only three countries (uae, malta and iceland) are at 70% and above

    only nine are above 60%

    Not sure what your source is (since you didn’t provide one), but the population of four countries are above 70% (Malta, UAE, Iceland, and the Seychelles) are fully vaccinated, eight are between 60-69%, and fourteen are between 50-59% (including the US just barely at 50.1%). Most of Western Europe and Canada (except for France) far exceed the US vaccination rate.

    I doubt Trump’s messaging on anything has any effect outside the US these days.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  140. All these French Trumpsters

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1421686668348870656

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  141. This is false. The vaccines aren’t “experimental” and they’ve have gone through all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 1:50 pm

    No, they haven’t–because children under 11 only started going through those trials in March. And none of them have received official approval from the FDA, but are still operating under an emergency authorization waiver. Novavax isn’t trying to skip the line, but get formal approval rather than an emergency waiver.

    Reuters can’t even keep their own propaganda straight:

    When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval (here).

    Then employ the use of weasel wording:

    While these are the first mRNA vaccines to be rolled out to the general public, the technology behind them has been developed over a number of years (here).  

    Then they set up a strawman:

    CLAIM 2 - “All were allowed to skip animal trials”  

    Not surprising from Reuters, but as members of the cathedral classes they certainly need to keep their narratives in line.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  142. #121 Sammy – There is much useful information in that poll. What I conclude from it is that we have to use a variety of approaches to persuade those who are not vaccinated, yet, to get their shots. For instance, to take an easy example, the 3 percent who worry about costs need to be told that the shots are free and, if necessary, they can get free rides, too.

    The “Definitely not” people are a harder problem. I think we need to reach them — to the extent that we can — through people they trust. I have been pleased to see Alabama Governor Kay Ivey and Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson making efforts to do just that, and would hope to see more efforts from similar leaders. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has been excellent on this subject, but so far has received little credit for his efforts.

    (And we should not forget that there are people on the left in that “Definitely not” group, who will have to be reached by different leaders.)

    It would also be helpful if there were some public lawsuits against those who have behaved recklessly with the virus, people like Rand Paul, for example.

    We can each do our little bits. For example, I could use a haircut soon. When I go to my usual place in a few days, I will ask the stylists if they are fully vaccinated — and only make an appointment if one of them is.

    (As I have said before, there are some groups, for example, public employees in contact with the public who can be required to be vaccinated, as a condition of employment.)

    I would be curious to hear what people like NJRobb and JF think we should do — if anything — to persuade those in the “Definitely not” group to change their minds.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  143. It would also be helpful if there were some public lawsuits against those who have behaved recklessly with the virus, people like Rand Paul, for example.

    Here he is acting like an uninformed jerk:

    Rand Paul Breaks Down His Viral Debate With Dr. Fauci

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xuQtNM1YQ

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  144. I would be curious to hear what people like NJRobb and JF think we should do — if anything — to persuade those in the “Definitely not” group to change their minds.

    I would like to see robust antibody and T-cell testing amongst the unvaccinated and several peer reviewed double blind studies that make the case that the people with naturally immunity are a considerable threat to humanity.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  145. @142 source

    you’re spinning really hard, rip, as usual

    most western european countries do not far exceed the u.s.

    you’re just flat wrong

    western european countries lagging the u.s. cuz trump:

    norway
    sweden
    finland
    france
    switzerland
    poland
    czech republic
    slovakia
    slovenia

    seven others like germany and italy are within just a few % points

    but, i get your point

    the u.s. is doing a bad job cuz biden sucks at leadership and effective messaging

    JF (e1156d)

  146. When I go to my usual place in a few days, I will ask the stylists if they are fully vaccinated

    Will you ask them if they are asymptomaticly spreading Covid as well? Apparently that can happen. Be safe out there.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  147. Rand Paul suspected he had the virus, ordered tests, and while he was waiting for the results, went to the Senate gym and exercised without warning anyone, or wearing a mask. (I have my doubts whether he believes in the Golden Rule.)

    Source.

    (I assume we all know that people can be infectious even when they have little or no symptoms.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  148. Is there a follow up article on how many people Paul killed?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  149. #151 BuDuh – I would like to see one. (Regardless of the results.) He certainly inconvenienced many, making it harder for them to do their jobs.

    I believe the other Dana is from Kentucky. Perhaps he (or she) can help us out.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  150. @150 what a scoop for the ap

    don’t tell them what’s going on at the border

    JF (e1156d)

  151. Here is the other Golden Rule:

    Aug 1 (Reuters) – Pfizer Inc (PFE.N) and Moderna Inc (MRNA.O) have raised the prices of their COVID-19 vaccines in their latest European Union supply contracts, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

    The new price for the Pfizer shot was 19.50 euros ($23.15)against 15.50 euros previously, the newspaper said, citing portions of the contracts seen.

    The price of a Moderna vaccine was $25.50 a dose, the contracts show, up from about 19 euros in the first procurement deal but lower than the previously agreed $28.50 because the order had grown, the report said, citing one official close to the matter.

    The European Commission said on Tuesday that the EU is on course to hit a target of fully vaccinating at least 70% of the adult population by the end of the summer.

    https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-moderna-raises-prices-its-covid-19-vaccines-eu-ft-2021-08-01/

    Just in time for necessary booster shots. Never let a crisis go to… oh you know.. the thing.

    So much for “We’re all in this together.”

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  152. I don’t think any exist, Jim. If they contact traced a Covid death to Paul, you wouldn’t have had to reach back to March of 2020 for a “Rand Paul is bad” story.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  153. #80
    “I’m vaccinated (though not vegan)”
    I saw some great looking vegan taquitos on TV last night, avocado and chile arbol sauce with black beans and potatoes? Yum. But if I were to make them at home there might be PORK chorizo.

    “but I’ll have to return to masking when the semester begins in a couple of weeks. Not to protect myself, mind you, but to protect the vaccine refuse-niks.”

    I am assuming you are a professor or teacher. Statistically speaking your chance of hurting people between 1 and 49 is so small that it doesn’t register. In the USA, the number of dead in that age group is 28,691 out of a total nationwide death toll of 601,124 or roughly 5%.
    In the college age group 18-29 2,470 have died out of a population of 53.3 million. Look at it from top down rather than bottom up. The whole world is not VisionZero.

    “So, I have to go back to mask wearing to protect selfish idiots from any viral load”

    First, as a vaccinated person your viral load is very light. Second you do not have to wear a mask because of selfish idiots. You HAVE to wear a mask in your setting because of the diktats of the bureaucrats above you in the your food chain. (OK they may also be selfish idiots)

    “.. it makes for a good rallying cry for idiots like Lauren Boebert. Who the hell is forcing her to do anything? She has a perfect right to be a selfish idiot and to encourage others to be, and I have a perfect right to call her a selfish idiot.”

    No one is forcing [Boebert] to do anything because she refuses to let them, but Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House is trying via fines etc.

    “So, I have to go back to mask wearing to protect selfish idiots from any viral load I, as a vaccinated person, might happen to carry.”

    Well, its a choice you make, or a coercion you accept. My guess is its both, but someone above you is probably saying you can’t work here if you don’t wear a mask and you’d rather work there. There are two groups of idiots at work in your life and I am sorry the bureaucrats that control your chosen profession ignore the science of vaccination and the law of rare events (For example, the number of telephone calls to a busy switchboard in one hour follows a Poisson distribution with the events appearing frequent to the operator, but they are rare from the point of view of the average member of the population who is very unlikely to make a call to that switchboard in that hour.)

    “seething resentment” hurts you more than it hurts them. I get that way too when people force me to do theater. I’m not too hard on the non-vaxxers compared to the “authorities” because this virus and its death rate are really a fart in a whirlwind. (601,000 dead of COVID out of 328M Americans is .03%)

    “Just get the damn vaccine!”
    I feel that way too, but primarily because it would get the Karens back in the house with their cats

    Sincerely want you to find calm, be happy, have fun, get through this and be able to laugh. May you and yours be safe, healthy

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  154. “Just get the damn vaccine!”

    Recall hearing that clarion call in 1976– and watching young college friends who got the freebee get violently ill, burning up w/fever, sitting naked in their own vomit in the showers, crying, ‘just kill me…’ after getting stuck w/a bad batch Jerry’s Swine Flu goop. Feel free to get jabbed by the latest government quickie. But respect those with life experience who remain steadfastly wary and suspect of such quick brew government goop.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  155. #155 BuDuh – So you don’t know whether any competent journalists have done the necessary research, either. That’s unfortunate. I think we would know if he had paid for such an investigation — and, if he hasn’t, he should.

    I would like to think we can agree that his personal behavior back in March was reckless and endangered many others. (On the other hand, I think you are going too far when you imply in #154 that medical professionals like Rand are motivated only by money.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  156. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing at all, Jim.

    Let’s start with #154 and the connection to Rand Paul.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  157. Here’s recent COVID data from Florida.

    It might be too early to call Governor Ron DeSantis’s current COVID policies a success, with daily new cases hitting an all-time Florida record.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  158. BuDuh – Ok. You implied that the medical professionals running Pfizer were motivated by money. You said this was another Golden Rule, in other words, a universal that would apply to other medical professionals (at least).

    Rand Paul is a medical professional.

    So, having finished that, do you agree with me that his behavior in March was reckless?

    And do you agree that he should try to find out whether he infected anyone with COVID?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  159. @160 what are the governor’s covid policies?

    are they any different from biden’s policies?

    JF (e1156d)

  160. He who has the gold makes the rules, Jim. I assumed you have heard that one before. Please reread #154 with that in mind.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  161. I agree that what he did 16 months ago was reckless. Although it would be interesting to see if he has robust immunity now, since I assume a denier like him would have caught Covid again.

    I do not know what investigation was done so I’m not sure what Paul should have done. To try and at least work with your hypothetical of him having infected someone that the AP couldn’t find, I will say that I do believe he was obligated to get in touch with everyone he was around.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  162. #162 JF – Here’s your search string: “Ron DeSantis + Covid policies”.

    (I don’t remember seeing steveg thank me, when I helped him similarly.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  163. GOP lawmaker who once spurned masks urges people to take covid-19 seriously
    A Tennessee legislator who went from unmasked gatherings with fellow legislators to being placed on ventilator days later has emerged with a message for constituents after a harrowing eight-month experience with long-haul covid-19:

    Take the coronavirus seriously.

    “It is a disease that wants to kill us,” state Rep. David Byrd (R) said in a statement Friday. Byrd, 63, described an ordeal that included 55 days on a ventilator in which covid-19 ravaged his memory, his muscles and his organs — it led to him having a liver transplant in June; his condition was so grave that his family at least once began planning for his funeral. Stressing that covid-19 is real and “very dangerous,” Byrd encouraged people to get vaccinated.
    …….
    “This is not an issue that should divide us,” he wrote.
    ………
    In Wayne County, Tenn., which encompasses Byrd’s district of rural Waynesboro, less than a third of adults are fully vaccinated, according to data tracked by The Post. Wayne County’s 31 percent fully vaccinated rate is below Tennessee’s rate of 39 percent and the United States’ overall rate of 49.6 percent.
    ……..
    (Byrd) chronicled the terrifying “lightning speed” with which covid-19 overtook his lungs: a diagnosis a day before Thanksgiving. “Every breath was pure agony,” Byrd wrote of the period before his Dec. 5 hospitalization.

    “Everything that can go wrong with Covid did,” he wrote. “Despite the excellent care I received, I got sicker. The virus invaded my lungs and organs and it wasn’t looking good for me. My wife and family prayed for a miracle while facing the very real prospect of planning my funeral.”

    As he was placed under anesthesia before being intubated, Byrd said, he realized he might not wake up. When he came off a ventilator nearly two months later, he said, he faced a “brutal and lonely” recovery during which he was unable to walk or use his arms.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  164. BuDuh – A serious Rand Paul search would not be cheap, or quick. I don’t know if one has been done, even for all the Trump rallies that definitely spread the disease, although it has been easy to find examples of people who probably got it at those rallies.

    And, most of our news organizations have far less resources than they did even a decade ago. (Exception: the “failing” New York Times).

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  165. @165 you appeared to be the expert, jim

    but, guess what, if i do that search for desantis then do the same for biden, i see only one difference between their policies

    desantis isn’t letting unvaccinated illegals in by the thousands daily

    that’s biden

    so, i guess you were just scoreboarding covid deaths based on no actual knowledge of the governor’s policies

    and, thank you!

    JF (e1156d)

  166. That is probably why they aren’t digging into a more recent actual super spreader event instigated by the Texas Dems, the House Dems, and members of Biden’s administration.

    But you’d think they would get some volunteer journalists to dig into this because of the pandemic. Hopefully the Dem Delegation institutes a serious investigation on their own.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  167. #166 Rip – As Franklin said: “Experience is a dear teacher, . . . “

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  168. There is plenty of evidence that Democrats denouced the “rush” to get a vaccine out and said that the Trump administration “couldn’t be trusted” on vaccine testing. As if Rudy G was in charge.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/kamala-harris-dangerous-vaccine-game/
    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521672-cuomo-public-should-be-very-skeptical-about-covid-19-vaccine
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-biden/democrat-biden-warns-against-rushing-out-coronavirus-vaccine-says-trump-cannot-be-trusted-idUSKBN2671NW

    All of these statements before the election were heard by their supporters and influence actions to this day. We focus on the “spite” crowd among Trump supporters, but there are a lot of independents and Democrats (and even some anti-Trump Republicans) who still say they think the vaccines were rushed and they don’t trust them. You don’t have to believe that Dr Fauci is a lizard-man from Lemuria in order to distrust the US government.

    Bide, Harris, Cuomo and others should buy time on the networks to announce they were wrong, the vaccines are safe and the real danger is not ending the pandemic as soon as possible. Trump’s bunch won’t accept a call to duty, but Biden’s just might.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  169. Los Angeles Covid Surge Being Driven By White, Affluent Neighborhoods

    Covid cases continued to rise in Los Angeles County on Thursday, albeit more slowly. The raw number of daily cases rose 17% in the past week, to 3,248. That’s roughly half of the 7,458 cases recorded in California on Thursday, even though Los Angeles County’s population accounts for only roughly 25% of the state’s residents.

    Driving this rise, according to Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer, have been more affluent communities on the West Side including Beverly Hills, Bel-Air, Beverly Crest, Venice, Studio City, Sherman Oaks, Encino. The winter surge was driven by higher case rates in Central L.A.
    ……
    “White residents — who have traditionally experienced lower case rates than LatinX and Asian residents — are now second (in raw case rate) only to Black residents,” said Ferrer.

    According to Ferrer, the increase in more affluent areas of the city is being driven by a younger, less-vaccinated population. “Transmission in these neighborhoods is mostly being spread among young adults,” she said, before speculating on other factors behind the increase. She ventured that these are “people with resources who can now go out and about more,” to restaurants, social gatherings or large parties, even if they are not vaccinated.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (e03271)

  170. stupid link field

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  171. That’s a bit misleading-they go through ‘trials’ but not quite as rigorous as you’d routinely expect

    Yeah, usually they are tested for several years to rule out some long-term effects. THe FDA has been roundly criticized for keeping life-saving drugs off the market in the past and they came up with emergency-use authorizations to deal with this. Covid isn’t the first time they were used. AIDS drugs, the Hep C cure, cancer treatments and other drugs that might help people who can’t wait.

    Can you imagine what the response would have been if Biden had announced that the Covid vaccines would “just have to wait for long-term testing to be done”?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  172. @172: It should be pointed out that young affluent Angelinos are hardly “strong conservatives” or Trump supporters.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  173. @174. Still waitin’ fer that there ‘heart vaccine,’ Kev… just like them there flying cars. But ‘ol 18 wheeler Joe, he be sure to deliver, won’t he.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  174. @175 affluent white people are a proxy for trump people

    that’s the only reason why it’s news

    every single bad covid thing that’s happened since the virus started is due to trump, or trump supporters, or trump proxies

    it’s the answer to every question, like 42 in hitchhikers guide

    JF (e1156d)

  175. #168 JF – Perhaps you should use a different search engine. Google and Bing are the best known.

    Here’s an example from Bing.

    Local officials across Florida are bucking Gov. Ron DeSantis and his anti-mandate coronavirus strategy as infections soar in the state and nation. They’re imposing vaccine and mask requirements for government workers and even declaring states of emergency. In a sign of how worrisome the new Covid-19 surge is, Disney World is ordering all guests over 2-years-old to wear masks indoors at its Florida theme park, regardless of vaccination status.

    Others may want to continue the tutoring; I want to do some reading now, but I’ll be back in a week or so.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  176. It’s time to send in relief; call the bullpen and get Harris throwing warm-ups.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  177. 172–Driving this rise, according to Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer, have been more affluent communities on the West Side including Beverly Hills, Bel-Air, Beverly Crest, Venice, Studio City, Sherman Oaks, Encino. The winter surge was driven by higher case rates in Central L.A.

    Isn’t that the district of right-wing reactionary Ted Lieu?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  178. No, they haven’t–because children under 11 only started going through those trials in March.

    Irrelevant, FWO. Just because a certain population isn’t authorized to use the vaccines, and just they haven’t received FDA approval, doesn’t mean they’re “experimental”. They’re not. All three drugs passed all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  179. Still waitin’ fer that there ‘heart vaccine,’ Kev

    Do you just make up sh1t and then respond to it?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  180. Isn’t that the district of right-wing reactionary Ted Lieu?

    As far as I know there is no elected Republican in Los Angeles County.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. Irrelevant, FWO. Just because a certain population isn’t authorized to use the vaccines, and just they haven’t received FDA approval, doesn’t mean they’re “experimental”. They’re not. All three drugs passed all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 7:14 pm

    So why did they just start testing on young kids in March? Why hasn’t the FDA formally signed off on these after all this time if they passed the “necessary” trials?

    Also, I don’t pay attention to “factchecks,” as I don’t trust the press or their claque of parrots in any way, shape, or form. So save your links.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  182. A top Border Patrol union official is warning that agents are having to release COVID-positive migrants into the U.S. “day in, day out” — amid the ongoing crisis at the border, which also has Border Patrol agents worried about their own health.

    “Not everyone we encounter we test, only those that exhibit some type of symptoms and not everybody has symptoms that has it,” Chris Cabrera, a vice president of the National Border Patrol Council, said Saturday on “Fox News Live.”

    “And we’re releasing people out of the door day in and day out with actual positive tests for COVID and more keep popping up,” he said.

    Cabrera also warned that his sector alone has seen 20,000 apprehension of migrants at the border, with 2-3,000 every day just in the area — and that doesn’t take into consideration those who are evading overwhelmed Border Patrol agents.

    As a result, Cabrero warned that a number of agents have been quarantined or are sick with the virus

    “We have a lot of agents quarantined right now, which adds to our problem, on top of agents who are sick with COVID, so we’re concerned about catching it ourselves, we’re concerned about our families and coworkers and it just seems everyone’s turning a blind eye to it when we have a real situation down here,” he said

    More than 188,000 migrants were encountered in June alone, taking the number of migrants encountered this fiscal year to more than a million. While more than 100,000 of those resulted in expulsions under Title 42 public health protections, the U.S. is releasing many migrants, including family units, into the U.S.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/border-patrol-official-covid-migrants-released-day-in-day-out

    Are Fox News and the CBP trying to prolong the pandemic?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  183. Different Diane Baker, DCSCA.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  184. @86. That’s interesting, DRJ, because when you do a Google search of him, in his personal stats it comes up as ‘Diane Baker’ in blue text — then you click on it and it sends you to the page w/t actress Diane Baker:

    Francis Sellers Collins ForMemRS is an American physician-geneticist who discovered the genes associated with a number of diseases and led t… en.wikipedia.org
    Born: April 14, 1950 (age 71), Staunton, Virginia
    Spouse: Diane Baker

    Such are the mysteries of the Interweb.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  185. @182. Do you just make up sh1t and then respond to it?

    Here’s the poop, Kev:

    “I used to drive an 18-wheeler, man.” – Joe Biden =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  186. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 1:53 pm

    It wasn’t an unqualified endorsement, because he basically said, “get the vaccine, but it’s okay if you don’t. You do you”.

    OMG frosty! He didn’t tell people to take the vaccine or they’re killing people. He’s such a fascist for telling people they’ve got to choose for themselves. The unmitigated evil of it all!

    I’ve seen, spread across multiple threads, the idea that Trump is telling people not to get vaccinated or that if only he would tell his supporters to get vaccinated they would. If all of that stands on him giving an qualified endorsement then it’s laughable.

    He’s said on numerous occasions that the virus is safe and people should get it. That he’s not giving an unqualified endorsement isn’t a reasonable rebuttal and it’s such a dishonest standard.

    It’s amazing reading through the comments with people rationalizing any lie that fits their bias and then moralizing about lying. And it’s not limited to Trump.

    So, he’s an evil psychopath bent on extending the virus and the linchpin of this plan is to give a qualified endorsement. Yea, you do you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  187. “Attention. Attention. Now pitching for the ‘Washington Senator,’ number 56, Kamala Harris.

    And will the owner of a 1973 Mack 18-wheeler parked by the ice cream concession stand please return to your rig- your lights are on– but nobody is home.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  188. The more you mention the pill, DCSCA, the more I think you’re just afraid of needles. :)

    norcal (a6130b)

  189. All three drugs passed all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 7:14 pm

    No, they haven’t. If they had, then the vaccines would have received full approval*, instead of Emergency Use Authorization.

    It would be accurate to say that certain trials, not all, required by the FDA, have been completed. Even the he use of the word “passed” (wherever used) implies only that the trials “end-points” have been met, not that a drug has received a final FDA approval. Again, the vaccines in question, have only an Emergency use authorization. This difference is important, both medically and legally.

    *Use of the word “full” is also misleading. Many drugs, once approved by the FDA, still, are required to conduct and complete additional trials in order to remove “black boxes,” contra-indications, and other requirements (such as testing for certain pre-existing conditions) placed on an approved drug. Additional trials are always required to demonstrate safety and efficacy, as well as for an expansion of use to other target groups, or even different “off-label” uses. Some drugs are pulled from the market after losing FDA approval because they have failed these additional trials, or after an accumulation of reported adverse effects.

    felipe (484255)

  190. frosty (f27e97) — 8/1/2021 @ 8:44 pm

    I agree with your comment, and you obviously meant use “vaccine”:

    He’s said on numerous occasions that the virus is safe and people should get it. That he’s not giving an unqualified endorsement isn’t a reasonable rebuttal and it’s such a dishonest standard.

    felipe (484255)

  191. Oh, for quibblers who wish to voice the obvious ” a vaccine is different from a drug!” Well, yes, obviously. I believe my point was about drugs and trials, yes?

    felipe (484255)

  192. In the interest of providing information for the edification of us all. Vaccine approval.

    felipe (484255)

  193. For those interested in when the vaccine will be cleared for children, a little CDC spiel, to be taken with a grain of salt, on the topic of Covid19.

    felipe (484255)

  194. … and I’m spent.

    felipe (484255)

  195. Sturge Weber Syndrome in children is brutal. Adalynn has the number 1 dr. in the field and she says to wait and see what the tests will be on children with Sturge Weber. Since we have all had the china flu the antibodies are working. Adalynn is as healthy as she possibly can be. Now for all you know it alls to tell me what a disgraceful person I am.

    mg (8cbc69)

  196. I, for one, find you worthy of honor, mg.

    felipe (484255)

  197. @83. Also, are people with doctor approved exemptions from the vaccine, and children not yet approved, in the group “refuse-niks?” As soon as I sent my comment, it occurred to me that I ought to have clarified that. No, of course I don’t include people with medical reasons for not being vaccinated in that category. But it also occurs to me that that much should be obvious, and should not need clarification.

    Roger (e34354)

  198. Would you be ok continuing to wear your mask, Roger, for the sake of the now obvious group with medical conditions? And what about the 11 and under children who are unvaccinated due to the FDA holding up their lifesaving injections? Do they still deserve your scorn?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  199. BuDuh (7bca93) — 8/2/2021 @ 5:45 am

    What is the racial and gender breakdown for this group? A lot of people will need that data before they can answer the question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  200. felipe, all three vaccines passed all the clinical trials. Authorization v. approval is a separate issue. The FDA gave EUAs because they concluded that the benefits from the vaccines exceeded the risks, and this is bearing out under real-world conditions.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  201. He’s said on numerous occasions that the virus is safe and people should get it. That he’s not giving an unqualified endorsement isn’t a reasonable rebuttal and it’s such a dishonest standard.

    What previous occasions? Like when he made the vaccine all about him? To you it’s “dishonest” that he can’t or won’t make an unqualified endorsement. To me, not. Why is it so hard for Trump to give an unconditional endorsement for vaccines, frosty? Why did he not join the other ex-presidents in that PSA? Why has he not produced his own PSA?
    This is not unlike his climbdown after his Helsinki debacle, when he said he “accepted” American intelligence on Putin’s meddling, but then he just couldn’t help himself with, “It could be other people also. There’s a lot of people out there,” which was complete bullsh-t.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  202. NYT Lies About Trump Again With Claim He Pushed DOJ To Declare Election ‘Corrupt’

    The very evidence The New York Times cites to allege Trump told a DOJ official to ‘just say that the election was corrupt’ shows it came in an entirely different portion of the discussion.

    https://thefederalist.com/2021/08/02/nyt-lies-about-trump-again-with-claim-he-pushed-doj-to-declare-election-corrupt/

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  203. This is false. The vaccines aren’t “experimental” and they’ve have gone through all the necessary clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/1/2021 @ 1:50 pm

    They aren’t really experimental, especially in the sense that that word “experimental” usually invokes, but the FDA is far, far, far too conservative.

    They did cut short their usual trial period, which is waiting six months after vaccination to see of harmful effects result. Initially they cut it down so much so that it looked like emergency authorization might come before Election Day so, responding to criticism from….Democrats, they changed that, much to the consternation of the Trump Administration, so it would be pushed past the election.

    The change also required, prior to authorization, more people to become deathly sick and, every reasonable person would say, die, after getting the placebo, so that there would be more statistical power behind the assertion that the vaccine prevented that.

    It would have been pushed back past the end of 2020, but there was an upsurge in cases, so all the t’s were crossed and all the i’s dotted while Trump was still president.

    You could have proved the vaccine worked by measuring antibody levels instead of waiting for people to get sick and die and seeing how many more people who got the placebo died compared to the number of people who got the real vaccine. Or they could even have done it by deliberately infecting some people who had gotten the vaccine. But they were not going to deviate that much from their usual procedures.

    They are not doing that now. And they are having the same detailed review, only trying to go through the paces a little faster.

    Everybody knows they are going to approve it

    They just don’t want to say that not all the hoops are necessary. If they truly were necessary, the vaccine hesitant are justified. You want them to be more “Catholic” than “the Pope?”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  204. felipe, all three vaccines passed all the clinical trials.

    For the life of me, I do not understand why you cling to this wording, and to the transient status it represents. The FDA still hedges the results. I understand why they would be cautious – they are supposed to be the standard bearers. But you are not the FDA, and your reputation is not on the line, but you still wish for your pronouncements to be taken seriously – you cannot have it both ways. You will end up with neither.

    Authorization v. approval is a separate issue. The FDA gave EUAs because they concluded that the benefits from the vaccines exceeded the risks, and this is bearing out under real-world conditions.

    Apparently you are unaware that you have repeated to me, the same information I outlined in my comments. The big-picture has eluded you, but that is all right, you’ll survive, as will I.

    felipe (484255)

  205. I am pleased to say that I am doing my best to persuade people to get vaccinated.

    “How?” I hear you ask. By the simple expedient of not wearing a mask. It should be widely known by now that the mask does not protect the wearer — it protects those who come in contact with him. And how do they know that I’m not contagious, eh?

    nk (1d9030)

  206. Should there be any other readers who fail to see the big-picture:

    COVID-19 Vaccines

    The FDA has regulatory processes in place to facilitate the development of COVID-19 vaccines that meet the FDA’s rigorous scientific standards.

    What that means: The vaccines are still undergoing development, until full approval.

    I argue that very person who is given the vaccine is a member of one of the largest medical trials in history. I expect that the FDA, media, et alii, will deny this. As Happyfeet would say “this is obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis.

    felipe (484255)

  207. 145. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/1/2021 @ 3:33 pm

    No, they haven’t–because children under 11 only started going through those trials in March.

    There are separate trials for different age groups. The pharmaceutical companies chose to do things that way, to maximize their chances of winning the race for emergency authorization. Pfizer chose age 16 as the minimum age and Moderna and J&J chose age 18. Then Pfizer got approval for ages 12,13,14 and 15. Now they’re shooting for ages 5-11.

    Pfizer and Moderna chose two shots and spaced them as closely together as they could where there was still some value of gaining a benefit (immunology tells you more spaced out shots would give a bigger benefit) and J&J chose to try it with one shot, partially because they were afraid the body would develop immunity to the cold virus carrier and the second shot might not add anything.

    Pfizer also went for storage in the coldest temperatures, although they’ve tried since to get FDA authorization for storage at higher temperatures.

    The one shot J&J is less effective than one shot of Moderna or Pfizer, but because one shot is what the protocol calls for, any person who received one shot of J&J is considered “fully vaccinated” but someone who received one shot of the two others is not. Things are that crazy.

    J&J is now running , or about to start running, a clinical trial with two doses.

    Novavax isn’t trying to skip the line, but get formal approval rather than an emergency waiver.

    They were running into manufacturing issues, and I think they were behind in the race anyway.

    It’s not that Novavax doesn’t want emergency authorization, but the FDA may not be inclined to grant it, since there are enough alternative vaccines.

    https://weillcornell.org/news/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-novavax-covid-19-vaccine

    Manufacturing regulatory issues have prevented Novavax from seeking emergency use authorization from the FDA. It may do so by July at the earliest and possibly as late as late September. Because the three other authorized vaccines are well stocked, FDA may require Novavax to apply for full licensure, which could take several months.

    Novavax’s unique selling points are:

    1) No multiplication within the body

    2( Higher approved storage temperature.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  208. nk (1d9030) — 8/2/2021 @ 9:18 am

    Well said. I find no fault with those who would persuade others to this course of action, nor do I find fault with those who, using their own judgment, decide the matter for themselves. It is a freedom I insist that my enemies should have.

    felipe (484255)

  209. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/2/2021 @ 6:52 am

    He has. I posted it. In the link you posted he says

    So everybody go get your shot

    In another part he says

    I handed the new administration what everyone is now calling a modern day medical miracle. Some say it’s the greatest thing to happen in hundreds of years, hundreds of years.

    But you turn that into

    Why is it so hard for Trump to give an unconditional endorsement for vaccines, frosty?

    Did you even read the article? How is he against something he’s taking credit for being a miracle and something everyone should get?

    This is why I called it a dishonest standard. No matter what he does it won’t be enough for you. You’ll imagine there was a wink and a nod or some other nonsense. Then you’ll turn around and say he’s discouraging people or telling people not to get it and cite as proof a speech were he tells people to get it and that it’s the greatest thing in hundreds of years.

    Making it all about him isn’t the issue but it’s what you’d complain about if he did his own PSA.

    frosty (f27e97)

  210. Pfizer didn’t take any money fpr research from Operation Warp Speed because they didn’t want the government laying any claim on any of the money they would make.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/11/24/938591815/pfizers-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-contract-excludes-many-taxpayer-protections

    When the Department of Health and Human Services released Pfizer’s $1.95 billion coronavirus vaccine contract with Operation Warp Speed last Wednesday, the agreement revealed that the Trump administration didn’t include government rights to intellectual property typically found in federal contracts.

    The drugmaker has downplayed its involvement in Operation Warp Speed, the Trump administration’s more than $10 billion program to make a coronavirus vaccine available in record time. Although Pfizer didn’t receive government funding this spring toward research and development of the vaccine, it nevertheless received one of the largest Operation Warp Speed supply contracts to date on July 21.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  211. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 8/2/2021 @ 9:40 am

    Indeed, Sammy. I say that OWS lit a fire under some companies who were worried they would miss out on, or perhaps lose prestige to, another company that might produce a vaccine under its auspices. OWS ignited/expedited the research and smoothed the way for the FDA to green-light an EUA.

    felipe (484255)

  212. 199. mg (8cbc69) — 8/2/2021 @ 3:45 am

    Since we have all had the china flu the antibodies are working.

    About one third of the unvaccinated people in the United States have been exposed to the Wuhan flu.

    The China flu would more properly refer to its ancestor, which spread through China after the first lab leak, in late August or early September, 2019.

    The variant that spread in Wuhan, which was worse, and against which the vaccines were designed, spread to to Milan. Italy from Wuhan and then to New York, resulted from the second lab leak in early to mid October.

    I think there were two separate lab leaks. And the first time they thought they could keep it under control and keep it secret because the disease was mild.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  213. https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA

    Roger, are the people in these videos members of the group “refuse-nics?”

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  214. The FDA has regulatory processes in place to facilitate the development of COVID-19 vaccines that meet the FDA’s rigorous scientific standards.

    They still test aspirin, and have change the warning labels on it several times.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  215. they changed that, much to the consternation of the Trump Administration, so it would be pushed past the election.

    And even though this probably changed the outdome of that very close election, it is patently FALSE to all the election “corrupt” because it was important for Trump to lose. Amiright!?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  216. @91. That’s hard to swallow, norcal. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  217. ^191

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  218. Patterico, Good article but I think it depends on the reader’s understanding of how Trump will say multiple contradictory things and claim no matter what happens he was right all along. This helps his supporters by giving them quotes to point to and forces other to show the difference in scale between the various contradictory messages. I don’t know how many people would actually be open to this type of persuasion. But it would be interesting and I don’t know if I’ve seen anyone break that down with clear data. This article makes it clear what the dominant message from the Trump wing is.

    One things that’s interesting is seeing people that will agree that vaccination is a good idea lose their minds because the Dems have happened to end up on the right side of an issue. Some parts of the GOP are encouraging vaccination, but they don’t seem to be the more influential part and are being attacked for it by the more MAGA groups. Look at the reaction to the Desantis and the AK governors statements.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  219. Rip Murdock Posted this in the open thread; https://www.prri.org/research/religious-vaccines-covid-vaccination/

    I didn’t have time to look at it before. But the methodology seems very strong and the longitudinal nature of the report is really interesting.

    It does a nice job breaking out the different reasons people are hesitant or refusing to get the vaccine which leads to some potential solutions for those who are merely hesitant.

    Child care
    Paid time off for the vaccine or dealing with side effects.
    Encouragement from faith leaders
    A slim majority (56%) supported requiring vaccination to participate in public activities.

    Anyway, it’s great bit of research and anyone that’s interested in the details should take a look.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  220. Oklahoma GOP leader compares vaccine mandates to the Holocaust: ‘Take away the star and add a vaccine passport’
    …….
    “Those who don’t KNOW history, are DOOMED to repeat it,” read the caption, below an image of a Star of David patch with “Unvaccinated” written across the top.
    …….
    The Nazis “gave [Jews] a star to put on, and they couldn’t go to the grocery store, they couldn’t go out in public, they couldn’t do anything without having that star on their shirt,” Bennett said. “Take away the star and add a vaccine passport.”
    ……..
    Bennett is the latest GOP official to equate the persecution of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to mandates related to the coronavirus. In March, Rep. Madison Cawthorn (R-N.C.) compared vaccine passports to Nazis forcing Jews to wear the yellow Star of David. In June, Washington state Rep. Jim Walsh (R) wore a yellow Star of David during a live stream, stating that it conveyed how “denying people their rights … can lead to terrible outcomes.”
    …….
    The image of the yellow Star of David patch that Bennett posted on the Oklahoma Republican Party’s Facebook page on Friday included what appeared to be identification numbers and a chip.

    The post also said: “Limited access to travel within their State, Province or Territory. The bearer may not fly, cannot enter a pub, restaurant, club or theatre. … WAKE UP PEOPLE — Is this sounding familiar?”

    Top Oklahoma GOP lawmakers condemned Bennett. Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt, Lt. Gov. Matt Pinnell, and Sens. James M. Inhofe and James Lankford, along with other state and federal lawmakers, released a joint statement Friday evening in which they called the Facebook post “irresponsible and wrong,” the Oklahoman reported.

    “People should have the liberty to choose if they take the vaccine, but we should never compare the unvaccinated to the victims of the Holocaust,” the statement said.
    …….
    Despite the stark disapproval from his colleagues, Bennett defended his claims in the video he posted Sunday afternoon and refused to apologize.

    “The Star of David — when they put that on the Jews, they weren’t sending them directly to the gas chambers. They weren’t sending them directly to the [incinerator]. This was leading up to that,” Bennett said.

    He warned that vaccine mandates are “totalitarian” and that if Oklahoma Republicans don’t act now, “it’s going to end in the same exact result as we saw when nobody stood up whenever the Jews were told that they had to wear that star.”

    Bennett also called the vaccine mandates “communist,” “unconstitutional” and “a direct attack on our liberties.” He criticized his fellow Oklahoma GOP members for speaking out against his post and accused them of not caring about Oklahomans’ “liberty and freedom.”

    In a statement released Saturday night, the Jewish Federation of Greater Oklahoma City called Bennett’s comparison “ill-informed and inappropriate.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  221. 219. I don’t think it actually changed the course of he election. But preventing a vaccine from being announced before the election could be viewed as a Dem attempt to prevent the result of the election changing. (Biden was in the lead)

    I don;t think it would have changed the result unless maybe Biden attacked the vaccine after it was announced..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  222. Bennett is the latest GOP official to equate the persecution of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to mandates related to the coronavirus.

    ‘Course the reversal comes into play– rather than condemn the non-vaccinated w/a star–why not ‘stick the pricked’ – the vaccinated – w/a government mandated, tattooed number. ‘Heilarious.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  223. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/2/2021 @ 10:57 am

    It depends on the reader having a confirmation bias. That and a poor memory and a poor attention span. Those goal posts are moving so fast they’re only a faint glimmer like hummingbird wings.

    frosty (f27e97)

  224. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/2/2021 @ 11:17 am

    The holocaust link, which is inappropriate, notwithstanding, the mandates are totalitarian. Whether you think they’re a good idea or not at least be honest enough to acknowledge the truth.

    frosty (f27e97)

  225. Frosty, Are you saying that Trump has been consistent and clear in his message? Or that his point lately has changed and been clear? Or are you saying that despite his multiple contradictory statements you think accusing him of supporting vaccine hesitancy is unfair?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  226. Frosty, how about requiring vaccination before letting children attend K-12? or Colleges requiring it prior to starting on campus learning? Or employers requiring it before employees return to working on site? Are those totalitarian also?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  227. rather than condemn the non-vaccinated w/a star–why not ‘stick the pricked’ – the vaccinated – w/a government mandated, tattooed number. ‘Heilarious.’
    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 8/2/2021 @ 11:52 am

    well, then, what you got there, is [one of]”the signs of the beast.”

    felipe (484255)

  228. Frosty, how about requiring vaccination before letting children attend K-12? or Colleges requiring it prior to starting on campus learning? Or employers requiring it before employees return to working on site? Are those totalitarian also?

    Are the immunodeficient(that cannot risk the vaccination) to be excluded from the campus and the workplace or do they get an exemption in your hypothetical?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  229. And to be clear about my policy preference

    I would not support passing a law that criminalized non-vaccination.

    I would support the individuals rights to require that customers and employees be vaccinated before entering their building.

    I would also support local governments with similar requirements where they could show a compelling need, such as a school or library. I would not support governments right to do this where they could not show such a need, such as an outdoor park.

    I would want exceptions made for people who vaccination isn’t medically advisable. I’m on the fence about conscience objections. I’d like to allow it, but I feel like too many people would use it as a pretext.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  230. I would want exceptions made for people who vaccination isn’t medically advisable.

    Why?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  231. Buduh, Up until the CV19 vaccine became a loyalty test for MAGA we had rules for vaccinations that were easy to follow. I remember having to provide records of mine before I started college too long ago. Some of the nutty left didn’t like them and that lead to outbreaks of measles in a few twee areas but for the most part kids got their shots before school and all sorts of diseases weren’t an issue. To deal with team “healing power of crystals” some places had to remove their conscience objection. This put people who do have a sincere religious objection in a tough spot.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  232. @233, because there are legitimate a medical reasons not to get the vaccine. They’re rare, but they exist.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  233. Wouldn’t you be giving a blessing to a drunk driver, albeit unintentionally drunk, with that exemption? How does the health and safety of others survive such a loophole?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  234. There is much wringing of hands here about being mean to people who have compromised immune systems. I would think this group would tend to be hyper-cautious and triple mask when Fauci says to double mask.

    In any event, I would think a person truly concerned with the rights of people who can’t get the vaccine would be supportive of pushing as much vaccination as possible. Because the surest way of protecting this group would be to arrive at herd immunity through vaccination.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  235. @236, not sure I’m following your question but; the idea is to create herd immunity where even if someone gets the disease they’re not able to pass it on. AFAIK the number of people who medically shouldn’t e vaccinated isn’t high enough to impact that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  236. If herd immunity is the goal, and a doctor’s note on being immunodeficient is clearance for that person to eat at the All Vaccinated Bistro, why wouldn’t accept a doctor’s note that says that the individual has natural immunity?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  237. @239, I’d be ok with that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  238. I wonder why this administration doesn’t think like you or me, Time. It is as if they wish to prolong the pandemic.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  239. BREAKING: Sen. Lindsey Graham has tested positive for COVID-19. Graham, who is vaccinated, tweeted that he learned he had the virus on Monday.

    =mike-drop=

    Wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  240. @234 We’re fortunate that the vaccine greatly reduces the risk of the virus.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  241. We’re fortunate that the vaccine greatly reduces the risk of the virus.

    Tell that to Lindsey Graham.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  242. @243 What’s your point DCSCA?

    Being vaccinated doesn’t every mean that you are 100% immune.

    People contract viruses all the time and many times, you don’t know you’ve had it (asymptomatic). That’s how viruses works.

    The “pill”, if it exists won’t give you 100% immunity either.

    whembly (0a8536)

  243. @246. It’s obvious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  244. DCSCA:

    Are you talking about a COVID pill or Lindsey Graham?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  245. @245, look at the changes in hospitalization rate for vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  246. @249. Look at Lindsey Graham instead- who as a U.S. Senator- has access to the best medical care in the land.

    Lots of Lindsey’s pricked pals he’s been hobknobbing with or working [or playing] closely with on the infrastructure legislation in the Senate ‘behind closed doors’ or on the Senate floor, best get retested.

    And it would be helpful to all Americans to know which batch/manufacturer of goop he was pricked with. But then, they don’t want to hurt the stock of that Big Pharm firm, do they.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  247. “Tell that to Lindsey Graham.”

    “I am very glad I was vaccinated because without vaccination I am certain I would not feel as well as I do now,” Graham said. “My symptoms would be far worse.”

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  248. @252. ROFFLMAOPIP-

    Now he’s DOCTOR Lindsey Graham???????????????

    How the fvck does HE know that?????? He is a bull-slinging Senator– his symptoms may just be correct for his body; hi ‘vaccine’ might jut have been a lousy batch– how the HELL does he know????

    HE DORESN’T. He’s a sh!t-shovelling politician: a bum.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  249. We just had Lollapalaver in Chicago. You couldn’t get in without State ID and proof of vaccination. But you all just keep on keeping on, by all means.

    nk (1d9030)

  250. “Wait for the pill.”

    Is come from Glorious People’s Pharmaceutical Collective in Coocoo-Gaga Oblast, da, Comrade?

    nk (1d9030)

  251. Frosty @227……the mandates are totalitarian. Whether you think they’re a good idea or not at least be honest enough to acknowledge the truth.

    There are no mandates, a real mandate would not have exceptions for religious or medical reasons. Certain groups have always been required to receive vaccinations-health care workers, students and teachers and the military. Mandatory vaccination programs by states and municipalities have been consistently upheld by the Supreme Court since 1905 (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11).

    Generally, states use the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s schedule of immunizations as a guide, and require children to be vaccinated against a number of diseases on the schedule, including diphtheria, measles, rubella, and polio. Various state laws also require vaccination against hepatitis B and meningococcal disease for incoming college and university students. In addition, Virginia and the District of Columbia require female students to be vaccinated against the Human Papillomavirus (HPV). Recently, some states and cities have begun requiring young children in preschool or daycare to receive influenza vaccinations.
    ……
    In Zucht v. King, (260 U.S. 174 (1922)) the Supreme Court upheld a local ordinance requiring vaccinations for schoolchildren. The Court invoked Jacobson for the principle that states may use their police power to require vaccinations, and noted that the ordinance did not bestow “arbitrary power, but only that broad discretion required for the protection of the public health.”
    ……..
    …..[T]he military has broad authority in dealing with its personnel, both military and civilian, including the protection of their health. Military regulations require American troops to be immunized against a number of diseases, including tetanus, diphtheria, influenza, hepatitis A, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and yellow fever. Inoculations begin upon entry into military service, and later vaccines depend upon troop specialties or assignments to different geographic areas of the world. Courts have upheld the legality of military mandatory vaccination orders. For
    example, in United States v. Chadwell, two U.S. Marines refused to be vaccinated against smallpox, typhoid, paratyphoid, and influenza because of their religious beliefs. In upholding the convictions, the Navy Board of Review court (now the Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals) stated that religious beliefs were not above military orders and that “to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to military orders, and in effect to permit every soldier to become a law unto himself.” Federal courts do not appear to contradict this reasoning……..

    Footnotes omitted.

    Are these vaccination mandates “totalitarian”?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  252. Lindsey Graham reportedly attended a small gathering on Joe Manchin’s houseboat before testing positive for COVID-19

    The weekend before Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) tested positive for COVID-19, he was reportedly at a small gathering on his colleague Sen. Joe Manchin’s (D-W.V.) houseboat in Washington, D.C, multiple news outlets are reporting.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  253. @255. Da. Da Big Pharma!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  254. whembly (0a8536) — 8/2/2021 @ 1:39 pm

    Being vaccinated doesn’t every mean that you are 100% immune.

    You may be only 39% as likely to be diagnosed as someone who wasn;t vaccinated.

    That’s the report from Israel. Now they are talking about the delta variant – but maybe it’s the Delta plus.

    In that statistic, they don’t seem to distinguish at all between barely testing positive and hospitalization although they note that separately.

    Something’s going on – but what?

    A. The vaccine spoiled.

    B. The coronavirus test is faulty, or has become contaminated.

    C. Most people have been at least partially – the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated, and so the distinction between them isn’t so great – and we have a much worse variant, or we have heavy infection.

    In a few days we may know the answer.

    The “pill”, if it exists won’t give you 100% immunity either.

    The pill DSCSA is talking about would give people temporary, passive near immunity. Something like that exists for influenza.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  255. : Sen. Lindsey Graham has tested positive for COVID-19. Graham, who is vaccinated, tweeted that he learned he had the virus on Monday.

    We’re starting to see this, but only now. Ging back no more than a few weeks, and they say it has to do with the delta variant. It may be present where the pCR test picks it up, in the nose, but that is not where the deadly problems arise.

    12 dys ago: (but updated)

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/21/1018872469/worried-about-breakthrough-covid-cases-heres-what-to-know

    Severe cases among vaccinated people are possible but extremely rare — the vaccines dramatically reduce the risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalization or death. And 97% of those currently hospitalized with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, according to Walensky…

    For context, as of July 19, out of 159 million fully vaccinated people, the CDC documented 5,914 cases of fully vaccinated people who were hospitalized or died from COVID-19, and 75% of them were over age 65. It’s not clear how many of these breakthrough infections the delta variant caused, but it’s now by far the dominant variant in circulation.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  256. About the military requiring vaccinations:

    The New York interviewed an 82 year old man who was against vaccination. He says that when he was in the army, which would have been in the 1950s or early 1960s, he escaped being vaccinated.

    This is how:

    They would get a vaccine card and have them stamped before getting the vaccine. Then they went on line. He always managed to excuse himself to go to the bathroom, and by the time he got back, his turn had always passed. They never noticed.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  257. The vaccine can’t be mandated by anyone (or is it that it can’t be mandated with immunity from liability?) until the FDA gives its full OK.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  258. 262, This was in a New York Times story. but I also find it here on the Internet:

    https://prodigitalseva.com/who-are-the-unvaccinated-in-america-theres-no-one-answer

    Pete Sims, 82, who said he definitely will not get a COVID-19 vaccine in Houston, Texas, on Friday, July 30, 2021. “It has to do with my civil rights. The United States government’s main job is to protect me from foreign and domestic enemies. Not my health. I’m in charge of my health,” Sims said. (Brandon Thibodeaux/The New York Times)

    Servicemen would periodically line up, hold out a vaccination card, get it stamped and when their turn came, hold out their arms.

    Moments before the injection, Sims always managed to take a bathroom break. He said he would emerge after his turn had passed.

    And here:

    https://indianexpress.com/article/world/who-are-the-unvaccinated-in-america-theres-no-one-answer-7432758/

    Google made it very hard to find the New York Times link:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html

    There seems to be a slightly different and fuller version there:

    Pete Sims, 82, recalls ducking mandatory vaccines during his time in the Air Force in the late 1950s.

    Servicemen would periodically line up, hold out a vaccination card, get it stamped and when their turn came, hold out their arms.

    Moments before the injection, Mr. Sims always managed to take a bathroom break. He said he would emerge after his turn had passed.

    Now he lives in Houston and identifies as more of a libertarian than a Republican, though he voted for Donald J. Trump in November. But Mr. Sims was emphatic that his politics have not shaped his near lifelong antipathy to vaccines.

    “It has to do with my civil rights,” he said. “The United States government’s main job is to protect me from foreign and domestic enemies. Not my health. I’m in charge of my health.”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  259. felipe, your own link, the one you’re tsk-tsking me with, outright stated that the vaccines were “rigorously tested” and passed all three necessary testing phases, and nowhere were they referred to as “experimental”. You’re not just contradicting me, you’re contradicting your very own cite.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  260. Bill Melugin
    @BillFOXLA
    ·
    5h
    NEW: I asked the executive director of Catholic Charities of the Rio Grande Valley how many COVID positive migrants they are currently housing in local hotels. She told me “I have been advised not to comment.”

    A second hotel has been confirmed. Texas Inn in Weslaco.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1422247796715970562

    Just get the damn vaccine!

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  261. This is why I called it a dishonest standard. No matter what he does it won’t be enough for you.

    I just gave you the criteria for an unqualified endorsement of the vaccine, but if you want to ignore that, then fine, whatever, frosty. Carry on.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  262. 7th Cir. Says: No Right for Students to Attend Public University Without Being Vaccinated
    From today’s decision in Klaassen v. Trustees of Indiana Univ., denying a motion for an injunction pending appeal (decided today in an opinion by Judges Frank Easterbrook, joined by Judges Michael Scudder and Thomas Kirsch:

    ………
    Given Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), which holds that a state may require all members of the public to be vaccinated against smallpox, there can’t be a constitutional problem with vaccination against SARS-CoV-2. Plaintiffs assert that the rational-basis standard used in Jacobson does not offer enough protection for their interests and that courts should not be as deferential to the decisions of public bodies as Jacobson was, but a court of appeals must apply the law established by the Supreme Court.

    Plaintiffs invoke substantive due process. Under Washington v. Glucksberg (1997), and other decisions, such an argument depends on the existence of a fundamental right ingrained in the American legal tradition. Yet Jacobson, which sustained a criminal conviction for refusing to be vaccinated, shows that plaintiffs lack such a right. To the contrary, vaccination requirements, like other public-health measures, have been common in this nation.

    And this case is easier than Jacobson for the University, for two reasons.

    First, Jacobson sustained a vaccination requirement that lacked exceptions for adults. But Indiana University has exceptions for persons who declare vaccination incompatible with their religious beliefs and persons for whom vaccination is medically contraindicated. The problems that may arise when a state refuses to make accommodations therefore are not present in this case. Indeed, six of the eight plaintiffs have claimed the religious exception, and a seventh is eligible for it. These plaintiffs just need to wear masks and be tested, requirements that are not constitutionally problematic. (The eighth plaintiff does not qualify for an exemption, which is why we have a justiciable controversy.)

    Second, Indiana does not require every adult member of the public to be vaccinated, as Massachusetts did in Jacobson. Vaccination is instead a condition of attending Indiana University. People who do not want to be vaccinated may go elsewhere. Many universities require vaccination against SARSCoV-2, but many others do not. Plaintiffs have ample educational opportunities.

    Each university may decide what is necessary to keep other students safe in a congregate setting. Health exams and vaccinations against other diseases (measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, meningitis, influenza, and more) are common requirements of higher education. Vaccination protects not only the vaccinated persons but also those who come in contact with them, and at a university close contact is inevitable.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  263. I certainly hope that everyone is vaccinated, and past the necessary time period for full protection, before they attend Obama’s birthday bash. His powerful endorsement of the vaccine will take a hit if he doesn’t make sure his guests are safe.

    Hopefully a complete guest list with vaccination status is released shortly.

    I wonder if Biden is worried about the potential for this to become a super spreader event?

    President Biden will not be attending former President Obama’s 60th birthday party on Martha’s Vineyard, a White House official confirmed.

    “While President Biden is unable to attend this weekend, he looks forward to catching up with former President Obama soon and properly welcoming him into the over 60 club,” the White House official told The Hill.

    Obama turns 60 on Wednesday. Biden is slated to travel to Rehoboth Beach, Del., on Friday.

    https://www.thehill.com/homenews/administration/565900-biden-not-attending-obamas-60th-birthday-party

    How sad that the most popular president in history is unable to go to Obama’s party and tell some stories.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  264. Neither party is pure on this issue. Both Biden and Harris made statements prior to the election that threw shade on the vaccine. Now they are pushing the vaccine hard.

    Trump also plays both sides. The fact that he didn’t make a big show of getting the vaccine like other leaders have done is telling. Yes, he has recommended getting the vaccine, but he doesn’t match Biden’s current emphasis. He doesn’t put out a PSA. His statement on July 18th is further evidence of succoring (or suckering–take your pick) his supporters who don’t want the vaccine.

    The important thing is what Biden and Trump are doing now to encourage the vaccine. Trump isn’t as clear and emphatic as the Democrats are. He just isn’t.

    Anyone who takes a break from the poo-flinging contest and is honest with himself can see that this is the case.

    norcal (a6130b)

  265. By the way, here’s the word salad from last February at a CPAC conference, where Trump “encouraged” everyone to get a vaccine.

    When I left office and we’re very proud of this because this was something that they said could not be done. The FDA said it, everybody said it. Any article you read said it couldn’t be done. It would be years and years, I handed the new administration what everyone is now calling a modern day medical miracle. Some say, it’s the greatest thing to happen in hundreds of years, two vaccines produced in record time with numerous others on the way, including the Johnson and Johnson vaccine that was approved just yesterday.
    And therapeutic relief also, if you’re sick, we have things now that are incredible. What has taken place over the last year under our administration would have taken any other precedent at least five years. And we got it done in nine months. Everyone says five years, oh, five years.
    Can you imagine if you had to go through what all of the countries of the world who are now getting the vaccine or soon will be getting it from various companies, but can you imagine if all of those countries had to go through what they’ve been going through over the last year? You’d lose hundreds of millions of people. I pushed the FDA like they have never been pushed before. They told me that loud and clear. They have never been pushed like I pushed them. I didn’t like them at all, but once we got it done, I said, I now love you very much. What the Trump administration has done with vaccines has in many respects, perhaps saved large portions of the world. Not only our country, but large portions of the world.
    Not only did we push the FDA far beyond what the bureaucrats wanted to do. We also put up billions and billions of dollars, 10 billion to produce the vaccines before we knew they were going to work. It was called a calculated bet or a calculated risk. We took a risk because if we didn’t do that, you still wouldn’t have the vaccines. You wouldn’t have them for a long time. So think of that, we took this bet. We made a bet because we thought we were on a certain track, but you’d be starting to make them right now. It’d be a long time before you ever saw. It takes 60 to 100 days to manufacture and inspect new doses. And that means that 100% of the increased availability that we have now was initiated by our administration. 100%. In fact, the director of National Institutes of Health, Francis Collins, he’s Fauci’s boss, actually, I think he’s a Democrat too, by the way, recently said that our operation warp speed was absolutely breathtaking and that the Trump administration deserves full credit, which we do. And as conservatives and Republicans, never forget that we did it. Never let them take the credit because they don’t deserve the credit. They just followed now, they’re following our plan, but this has been something that they really call, they call it an absolute miracle. Joe Biden is only implementing the plan that we put in place. And if we had an honest media, which we don’t, they would say it loud and clear. By the time I left that magnificent house at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, almost 20 million Americans had already been vaccinated. 1.5 million doses were administered on my final day alone. 1.5 million in a day. Yet Biden said just a few days ago that when he got here, meaning The White House, there was no vaccine. He said, there’s no vaccine. Oh, good. Say it again, Joe. Now I don’t think he said that, frankly, in a malicious way. I really don’t. I actually believe he said that because he didn’t really know what the hell was happening.
    Never let them forget. This was us. We did this. And the distribution is moving along, according to our plan. And it’s moving along really well. We had the military, what they’ve done, our generals and all of the people, what they’ve done is incredible. But remember, we took care of a lot of people, including, I guess on December 21st, we took care of Joe Biden. Cause he got his shot. He got his vaccine. He forgot. It shows you how un-painful all that vaccine shot is. So everybody go get your shot. He forgot so it wasn’t very traumatic obviously, but he got his shot and it’s good that he got his shot.

    No, he make it about him at all. This is akin to the folks who said that Trump said “peacefully” on 1/6 but failed to mention that he said “fight” 20 times. His followers got the message.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  266. I don’t think that shows him discouraging the vaccine, though he’s done that elsewhere. I wish they’d play that on loop on Oan.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  267. Not saying he’s encouraging ppl in that quote. But it’s better then his recent statements

    Time123 (5d8bdb)

  268. DCSCA

    Did you wait for the pill?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  269. I’d like to allow it, but I feel like too many people would use it as a pretext.

    California initially did allow such objections when they mandated childhood-disease vaccinations for public school kids, but there were so many spurious objections (“I believe it causes autism”) that they limited it to medical reasons. And even then people tried to get their doctors to make stuff up.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  270. The vaccine can’t be mandated by anyone (or is it that it can’t be mandated with immunity from liability?) until the FDA gives its full OK.

    The EEOC begs to differ.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  271. T123, that cut-and-paste was probably his most unequivocal support of the vaccine, but it was a short sentence buried in 91 minutes of non-stop stream-of-conscience gasbaggery. There was that, and his conditional support in March, and that was pretty much all I could find of his “support” for vaccines in the Biden era. As putative leader of the GOP, his relative silence on the topic also communicates a message, especially in context of his latest comments last month that equated a lack of trust with the election with a lack of trust on vaccines.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  272. @273. You can’t sue Pfizer or Moderna if you have severe Covid vaccine side effects. The government likely won’t compensate you for damages either

    -Under the PREP Act, companies like Pfizer and Moderna have total immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines [unlike those who got/get pricked w/bad goop] .

    -A little-known government program provides benefits to people who can prove they suffered serious injury from a vaccine.

    -That program rarely pays, covering just 29 claims over the last decade.

    source, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

    Now there’s a hard pill to swallow, Kev.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  273. “Paging Doctor Howard, Doctor Fine, Doctor Graham.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  274. 268. ‘I certainly hope that everyone is vaccinated, and past the necessary time period for full protection, before they attend Obama’s birthday bash. His powerful endorsement of the vaccine will take a hit if he doesn’t make sure his guests are safe’.

    Something Sick Bay McCoy would mutter to Spock. Which is why Kirk always captained the Enterprise.

    “Damn it Jim, I’m a doctor, not a senator from South Carolina!”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  275. #201
    The law of rare events tells us we don’t need to wear a mask for unicorns who cannot take vaccines unless you can narrow the odds down to a zip code or something useful.
    Otherwise its like locking yourself in a bunker because a meteor might strike.
    If I am a teacher and I am told one of my students cannot get vaccinated due to *fill in blank* of course I’d mask. But if its one in 400,000 and I live in a county of 400,000 and no clue if there is anyone in my entire county with this issue?
    No

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  276. @269. The Plagiarist is president now, norcal, not PT Barnum.

    It’s up to Grandpoppa Clutch, ol’ 18-wheelin’ Convoy Joe, to drive the messaging home.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  277. What if, and I’m just brainstorming here, but what if we covered the vaccine in peanut butter or wrapped it in cheese?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  278. @282. brainstorming = ‘reign’ of pain:

    Peanut allergy – Symptoms and causes – Mayo Clinic

    Peanut allergy signs and symptoms can include: Skin reactions, such as hives, redness or swelling Itching or tingling in or around the mouth and throat Digestive problems, such as diarrhea, stomach cramps, nausea or vomiting Tightening of the throat Shortness of breath or wheezing Runny nose… etc., etc, … -source, http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/peanut

    Cheese Allergy – Allergies List

    Cheese allergy is caused due to the presence of milk proteins within cheese. Milk proteins can trigger an allergic response in certain individuals that results in a large variety of different clinical symptoms. The allergic response is an immune response that can range from either being mild to rather severe. – source, allergieslist.com/cheese-allergy

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  279. I think Time’s joke went over your head DCSCA

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  280. @284. Think again: better over the head than down the throat.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  281. Cheese allergy is caused due to the presence of milk proteins within cheese.

    Oddly, I am seriously allergic to many types of cheese (e.g. Parmesan, feta) but have utterly no problem with milk or butter. It’s proteins, of course, but only those that exit the fermentation process.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  282. As far as wearing a mask to protect those who won’t protect themselves … not going to happen. Now, if I’m in place where there are lots of people and I don’t know who’s been stupid? Then I’ll put on my 3M-brand N95 mask. But not for them.

    BTW, you can get those actual N95 masks at Home Depot or Walmart again.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  283. If kids have a peanut allergy, which was preventable, their parents need to tell the school and then they will do their best.

    “Fatal food anaphylaxis is a rare, dramatic event which often involves young people and commands wide media attention – as with other high profile, rare events the public perception of risk may be significantly greater than the true risk [20]. Given the importance of anxiety as a contributor to the quality of life impact of food allergy [21], our finding that fatal food anaphylaxis incidence is relatively low may be important information for food-allergic people and their careers. Some people with food allergy and their families have restricted lives because of fear of anaphylaxis and fatal outcomes, which they may estimate to be more likely to occur than reality.”

    337 children have died of covid in about 1.8 years time.
    In that same time 250 died of food allergies but we did not shut down anything over that, not even the Peanut Butter death merchants like Jiffy and Reeses candy

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  284. 286. Problem with pills?

    Wait for the suppository, Kev. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  285. felipe, your own link, the one you’re tsk-tsking me with, outright stated that the vaccines were “rigorously tested” and passed all three necessary testing phases, and nowhere were they referred to as “experimental”. You’re not just contradicting me, you’re contradicting your very own cite.
    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/2/2021 @ 3:22 pm

    You are mistaking me for some one else, Paul. I have never used the word “experimental” in any of my comments. And no, I am not contradicting you, nor any of my citations. Perhaps you think so because you have mistakenly assigned to me an agenda that I do not possess. I have clearly stated what my points are and illustrated them with links. Your comments demonstrate that you do not understand what I have said or why I have said it, because you think I am tsk-tsk -ing you. Your comments exhibit an unnecessary defensiveness. I am not attacking you.

    I will however, laud you, now that you have changed your position, from “all three vaccines passed all the clinical trials.” [an absolute statement!] to, “passed all three necessary testing phases.” Good for you! It shows that you have made progress in finally acknowledging the folly of claiming “all clinical trials” to “all three necessary testing phases.” But the unnecessary ostinato in this newly stated position manifests itself in the continued use of one single word; “all.” It is a limiting word that does not reflect actual CDC policies. Three phases are not all there are, Paul.

    I will risk hardening your heart in stating that finally, you have come to the understanding that the clinical trials that have met the end-points, defined by the FDA, were “necessary,” and that clinical trials are conducted in “phases;” evidence that you have educated yourself recently. Now, it is my hope that you discover, for yourself, one of my implied points (to which I wished you had already arrived); that necessary does not mean “sufficient.” You could have ommited “all” and been uncorrectable.

    Since I sense a certain inertia on your part, I will add clarification to my meaning. The clinical trials, having met certain end-points, were deemed by the FDA to be necessary for them to issue an EUA, but not sufficient to grant approval. This is what I would have you understand. It is not too fine a point, but one that is impossible to communicate to a communicant entrenched in a specific position.

    By all means, avail yourself of the last word, but let that be the end of the matter; the returns have finally diminished.

    felipe (484255)

  286. Beautifully written comment, felipe.

    norcal (a6130b)

  287. felipe-199
    You made my day.
    Thanks.

    mg (8cbc69)

  288. felipe-
    My greatest blessings call me grandpa.

    mg (8cbc69)

  289. Something Sick Bay McCoy would mutter to Spock. Which is why Kirk always captained the Enterprise.

    “Damn it Jim, I’m a doctor, not a senator from South Carolina!”

    You forgot to put the bewildered Lindsay Graham face next to the sinister smiling Sulu/George Takei meme.

    urbanleftbehind (39f86f)

  290. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/2/2021 @ 12:29 pm

    Or are you saying that despite his multiple contradictory statements you think accusing him of supporting vaccine hesitancy is unfair?

    You’ve said he’s said a thing w/o providing links to back it up. I provided links that has him saying the opposite. Now you’ve moved the goalposts and asked someone else to make the case you can’t make.

    What multiple contradictory statements? All you and Paul have been able to claim is that he hasn’t done enough. Considering the audience that will be a condition that’s never met.

    No, I’m not saying it’s unfair. I’m saying it’s dishonest.

    frosty (f27e97)

  291. Frosty, did you read the sub stack that this comment section is discussing?

    Links you requested where posted in the open thread, and not limited to Trump.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  292. But since it’s easy to find; here’s his statement a few weeks ago

    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/news/statement-by-donald-j-trump-45th-president-of-the-united-states-of-america07181116

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  293. Sunday July 18 statement. Trump: “Joe Biden kept talking about how good of a job he’s doing on the distribution of the Vaccine that was developed by Operation Warp Speed or, quite simply, the Trump Administration. He’s not doing well at all. He’s way behind schedule, and people are refusing to take the Vaccine because they don’t trust his Administration, they don’t trust the Election results, and they certainly don’t trust the Fake News, which is refusing to tell the Truth.”

    This was two weeks ago and is certainly a shift in posture from his March CPAC comments that generally encouraged people to get the vaccine. Here, we now see a twisted incentive: if you want to keep the administration behind schedule, don’t get the vaccine. Only people who believe the election results are getting shots….and you can’t possibly believe that fake news! An objective reader would be troubled by a prepared statement like this…versus an off-the-cuff-comment….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  294. felipe, I’ve already said upthread that the vaccines have passed all the necessary clinical trials, and that’s exactly what your FDA link said. Of course approval is different from authorization. But as a practical matter, it’s a distinction with little difference. However, that distinction is being made all too often by the anti-vaxxer set as if that’s supposed to really mean something. It has been proven safe and effective well beyond the clinical trials.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  295. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/2/2021 @ 12:34 pm

    Frosty, how about requiring vaccination before letting children attend K-12? or Colleges requiring it prior to starting on campus learning? Or employers requiring it before employees return to working on site? Are those totalitarian also?

    Just to be clear, because that seems to be a recurring issue, we’re not talking about vaccinations generally, or vaccinations that cover much more contagious or deadly viruses or vaccines with a long history. We’re talking about the covid vaccines.

    It’s totalitarian and unnecessary to mandate vaccination of children for whom the vaccine isn’t authorized and who aren’t at risk and aren’t appreciable virus vectors, i.e. under 12.

    It’s totalitarian and unnecessary to mandate vaccination of anyone not at substantial risk from the virus, i.e. K-12 and college.

    It’s totalitarian for the government to mandate vaccinations as a condition of employment (and because I know this will be a thing I’m talking about government employment here).

    You’ve invented a new thing with employers requiring it to return to work and congratulations you’ve found a loophole where it’s not technically totalitarian for a specific employer to require people to identify their vaccination status. It is creepy. But lucky you, welcome to fascism where the state outsources those mandates to “private” enterprise generally.

    I noticed in a number of posts following this that some people are confused by this concept. Requirements to be vaccinated to do a certain thing, i.e. join the military, attend a college, etc., aren’t what we’re talking about with the covid vaccine mandates. What we’re currently talking about is “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Vaccine, No Service”.

    Mandating the vaccine is an extreme position and yes it’s totalitarian. If you’re on board at least be honest enough to say so.

    But, the message is “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Vaccine, No Service” one minute and then “but some service for some people in some situations maybe we’ll decide case by case as we go but certainly not anyone that looks like they aren’t on our team” the next. You shouldn’t wonder why people are pushing back.

    frosty (f27e97)

  296. You certainly want the FDA-approval process to be meticulous (and beyond politics)….and follow all of the scientific protocols….with due caution to long-term effects…..effects which do require longer horizons to study. However, people do continue to get sick….and die. And the overwhelming number of those people are ones that are not vaccinated. The effects of “long covid” are also not completely studied. How much evidence do we need before we conclude that, yeah. it’s a serious condition that the vaccination helps to avoid. How many lives will we lose from people holding out for approval? Yes, approval provides more confidence…especially for individuals in unique medical circumstances….but where is the evidence (of hundreds of millions of shots) currently pointing? Is the probability leaning in one direction? Yes, many of us have made that leap….which by itself does not make us perfectly objective….and many of us groan with the burden of having to re-don the masks….we hate going backwards. But still, check your motivations and your understanding of the probabilities…..I would have for people to die for politics….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  297. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/2/2021 @ 3:36 pm

    This is why I called it a dishonest standard. No matter what he does it won’t be enough for you.

    I just gave you the criteria for an unqualified endorsement of the vaccine, but if you want to ignore that, then fine, whatever, frosty. Carry on.

    I didn’t ignore it. You quoted me not ignoring it. You’ve seen a quote where he gives an unqualified endorsement and you found a way to discount it. Your criteria are that he has to convince you and that’s obviously not a thing possible within the confines of this reality.

    frosty (f27e97)

  298. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/2/2021 @ 6:59 pm

    but what if we covered the vaccine in peanut butter or wrapped it in cheese?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/well/live/food-allergies.html

    Years ago a college student who knew she was deathly allergic to peanuts died after eating chili that had been thickened with peanut butter..[link to March 23, 1986, NYT article] ….The only real food allergies are adverse immunological responses, Dr. Sicherer explained. The body reacts to an otherwise innocent food as if it were a life-threatening infection and launches a full-scale offensive. Symptoms may include hives, trouble breathing, vomiting or anaphylaxis — a severe, potentially fatal shock reaction that occurs within seconds or minutes of exposure to an allergen, sometimes in only tiny amounts. That is why most airlines no longer offer peanuts to fliers — a mere sprinkling of peanut dust can prove fatal to some people with peanut allergies.

    https://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/allergies/food-allergy/peanut/how-many-people-die-each-year-from-peanut-allergies.htm

    Estimates say that in the United States, thousands of people visit the emergency room annually because of allergic reactions to food. Somewhere around 150 to 200 people die in the U.S. each year because of food allergies. It’s estimated that around 50 percent to 62 percent of those fatal cases of anaphylaxis were caused by peanut allergies. Meanwhile, around 10 people in the United Kingdom die each year because of food allergies. However, these figures are not completely reliable, in part because allergic deaths aren’t considered reportable events.

    Although the number of people who die annually from peanut allergies is in the low hundreds at most, peanuts have gotten a reputation for being particularly deadly.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  299. felipe (484255) — 8/3/2021 @ 12:04 am

    “all three necessary testing phases.”

    They ran the Phase III and Phase II trials simultaneously.

    But if you pass the Phase III trials you really don’t need the Phase II trials. Similarly, there’s not too much sense in running animal trials at the same time or after human trials. This is placing form over substance. Now maybe they started the Phase II trials earlier.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  300. Trump is now trying to use vaccine hesitancy as a lever to get people to accept, or not dispute, his claim that the election was stolen from him. It was kind of inevitable he would succumb to the temptation.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  301. I don’t think requiring vaccination against deadly and communicable diseases before entering public spaces is totalitarian if the vaccination is safe, readily available, and there’s a medical exception.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  302. 300. The incentive Donald Trump has in mind is: If you want people to take the vaccine, say that the election was stolen from him.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  303. Sammy, It was a joke because that’s how you persuade pets to take pills. I didn’t mean it seriously.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  304. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 4:56 am

    I don’t think they are. There is a comment from Trump

    people are refusing to take the Vaccine because they don’t trust his Administration, they don’t trust the Election results, and they certainly don’t trust the Fake News, which is refusing to tell the Truth.

    that we’ve got to go into Trump-whisper mode to decode. Yes, we’ve got explicit examples of him saying get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good thing but now we’ve got this seemingly cryptic statement that once decoded reveals the nefarious truth!

    Now, maybe I didn’t read the article thoroughly enough, but it seems like the idea that the entire R party is deliberately trying to prolong the pandemic rests on this one quote and the idea that Trump is being “uneven”. You don’t think some of the “unevenness” is in the eye of the beholder? There is nothing in that statement that says “don’t get the vaccine”. A person has to imagine that “it’s what Trump really meant” to get that out of that comment.

    Do you understand the difference between explaining the observation of a thing and the decoded message that the illuminated can find buried there? I’m really thinking you don’t.

    Oh, I forgot the trusted leader of the GOP running behind the twitter handle catturd2. I’ll give you that one. I do wish catturd2 would get on board the bus for the common good.

    frosty (f27e97)

  305. Better: If you want people to take the vaccine, when you tell people to take the vaccine, also say that the election was stolen from him/

    Or maybe…

    If you want people to listen to you if you tell them to take the vaccine, you should have also said previously that the election was stolen.

    He’s trying to twist the knife.

    That’s what people get for badgering him to promote getting the vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  306. I don’t think requiring vaccination against deadly and communicable diseases before entering public spaces is totalitarian if the vaccination is safe, readily available, and there’s a medical exception.

    We have defined two medical exceptions so far:

    1. Immunodeficient with a doctor’s note.

    2. The antibody Tcell proficient with a doctor’s note.

    How about adding unaffected age groups with a doctor’s note?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  307. Interesting story.

    At work I lead a moderately sized group of people who sit in several different places. I was asked by my boss to get feedback on how people felt about coming back to work live. One of our biggest problems is finding enough people and we’re very focused on what our teams think. Most of my team are engineers and they’re all hard to replace. This was a conversation that somewhat mirrors the online discussion that we’ve all had / seen. The difference is it’s at work, it’s live, and it’s with people you know. So politics mostly stayed out of it and everyone was respectful, polite, and often kind. This was from a while back.

    -Most people felt covid was serious, but not everyone. One of my engineers is apparently not great at stats.
    -Older people (40+) were more cautious about getting sick. One guy said he’d had a bad flu a couple years ago, was out for over a week, lost 12 lbs, and wasn’t fully recovered for over a month. Clear age divide within the team about risk.
    -No one liked masks.
    -Everyone said they were vaccinated, and because of that didn’t want to wear masks. General feeling that it’s not fair to make vaccinated people wear masks. Given the choice between requiring vaccination or requiring masks they wanted to require vaccination or keep working remotely.
    -General concern abut being fair to people who didn’t want to get vaccinated.
    -the people who have to be in every day had the least sympathy towards being fair. They want to stop wearing masks ASAP.
    -No one thought the vaccine was 100% effective. Everyone felt it was good enough to replace other mitigation factors.
    -General agreement that the new level of cleanliness needs to continue forever.
    -Debate on if vaccination status should be on the honor system. I cut this off when someone starting to bring politics into it so I don’t really know what they thought.
    -Everyone liked the flexibility of working remotely, and wants to keep that. There was some discussion about if it’s ‘fair’ that some can and some can’t based on needs of the job but no clear consensus. The people who have to be there physically seemed to be implying they should get paid more but didn’t say so directly. One person said it this way; “everyone did their part, some of us had harder parts to do.” Ended this topic for obvious reasons.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  308. Speaking of not trusting this administration. Despite Desantis having 50, or so, “get vaccinated” events, Psaki accused him of being anti-vaccine.

    Does Biden’s administration want to prolong the pandemic?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  309. Your criteria are that he has to convince you and that’s obviously not a thing possible within the confines of this reality.

    No, I think I defined my criteria well enough, but you’re busy calling me dishonest and engaging in your own personal hypotheticals. If Trump came out tomorrow and unconditionally encouraged every adult to get a vaccine, I would give him credit.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  310. BuDuh, Maybe. Seems like a public health question that would be determined by how leaving kids unvaccinated would impact heard immunity. Which is probably a question it will be impossible to answer definitively until after the fact when you compare places that did with places that didn’t.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  311. Did you mention that natural immunity is on your exemption list, Time? That might be a faster path to zero masks.

    Incidentally, I wonder what f business will start mandating properly fitting N95 masks in light of Biden’s administrations stance on other face wear?

    Joe Biden’s top covid advisor just went on CNN and admitted the masks people are wearing don’t work against covid. As I’ve been saying, this is all just cosmetic theater.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1422261427210006541

    Maybe he was taken out of context? I haven’t found a transcript of the entire interview.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  312. …I wonder if business…

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  313. Do you understand the difference between explaining the observation of a thing and the decoded message that the illuminated can find buried there? I’m really thinking you don’t.

    Your point is really clear. But I think it’s wrong. The data shows a very strong correlation between supporting Trump and being anti-vax. The casual effect seems clear. There’s a very large chunk of the MAGA leadership that’s pushing vaccine hesitancy. See the statements from OAN, Fox News Hosts, Trump associates like Flynn, and MAGA elected officials like MTG, Gaetz, etc. I’m not saying Trump’s the most vocal, i’m saying he’s part of it.

    Here’s what Flynn said about Hannity and Desantis. Haven’t looked to see if this was before or after Hannity backed off encouraging the COVID vaccine.

    https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn-criticizes-desantis-hannity-vaccine-push-they-know-that-they-have-influence-1612777

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  314. Minorities listen to Michael Flynn for medical advice.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  315. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 6:27 am

    I don’t think requiring vaccination against deadly and communicable diseases before entering public spaces is totalitarian if the vaccination is safe, readily available, and there’s a medical exception.

    None of those things make it not authoritarian or totalitarian. They’re just excuses to justify it.

    All sorts of things are deadly and there are all sorts of things the government can do to make us “safe”. That’s yet another genie that we won’t get back in the bottle.

    The pattern here is obvious. We’ve got a threat that is being overstated, we’ve created an outgroup to identify as the source of the threat, and we’re begging the government to keep us safe. Yea, that always ends well.

    frosty (f27e97)

  316. A couple other things. The libertarians who are vaccine-hesitant should prefer that there be no formal approval because that would give the government the impetus to implement top-down mandates.
    Personally, I oppose governmental vaccine mandates, particularly for minor-aged kids because they’re mostly asymptomatic or experience mild symptoms. If a school district requires vaccines for adult staff, I don’t oppose that. Same for private businesses. Same for colleges. That’s their choice, but I prefer a carrot-over-stick approach.
    I think vaccine passports are a terrible idea. We don’t need more policies where someone at the front door says “papers please”.
    As for mask mandates, I oppose all of them except for maybe in hospitals/clinics, because they basically punish the vaccinated, i.e., the folks who already took appropriate precautions.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  317. Noted jerkwad Massie listened more intently to the same video I posted above and rightfully concluded that Biden’s Covid honcho recognizes natural immunity:

    Thomas Massie
    @RepThomasMassie
    ·
    13h
    wow, a Biden advisor concedes that “prior infected” have immunity, and cloth masks are a joke compared to N95.

    https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1422354128576122884

    Hopefully the administration gets these mixed messages under control.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  318. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/2/2021 @ 8:48 pm

    Then I’ll put on my 3M-brand N95 mask.

    Not trying to pick a fight but why N95? I don’t think the P100 is that much more expensive for the extra protection. Don’t forget that your eyes are also a path for the virus.

    frosty (f27e97)

  319. Dishonesty, COVID overreaction and a genetic predisposition to totalitarianism will sink the Democrats.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  320. Hopefully the administration gets these mixed messages under control.

    Thanks for the morning chuckle…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  321. Frost, I was clear and specific to deadly and communicable diseases. Do you feel that schools and colleges are totalitarian when they require immunization records before they let students attend?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  322. @320, In the open thread there’s a link to pretty good research about what’s driving vaccine hesitancy in different demographic groups. Rip Murdock posted it first.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  323. Speaking of the charlatan Massie, he is trying to fool everyone again:

    Thomas Massie
    @RepThomasMassie
    ·
    19h
    “Ending the COVID-19 pandemic will require long-lived immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Here, we evaluate 254 COVID-19 patients longitudinally up to 8 months and find durable broad-based immune responses.”

    “…spike-specific IgG+ memory B cells persist, which bodes well for a rapid antibody response upon virus re-exposure or vaccination. Virus-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells are polyfunctional and maintained with an estimated half-life of 200 days.”

    “Interestingly, CD4+ T cell responses equally target several SARS-CoV-2 proteins, whereas the CD8+ T cell responses preferentially target the nucleoprotein, highlighting the potential importance of including the nucleoprotein in future vaccines.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8253687/#!po=0.609756

    https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/142227110083102311

    Here is another quote from his NIH link:

    This in-depth longitudinal study demonstrates that durable immune memory persists in most COVID-19 patients, including those with mild disease, and serves as a framework to define and predict long-lived immunity to SARS-CoV-2 after natural infection.

    Meanwhile others are hopeful that they get a third shot.

    GET. VACCINATED. ALREADY.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  324. That thread is too long for me to sift through Rip’s posts, Time. I’ll just stipulate that Rip posted a link that outlines that the MAGA vaccination hesitant are also largely minorities. No wonder the Dems are scared about an election audit.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  325. If wishes were Norwegian horsegirls, we be ridin’…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LarJtrHNJME

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  326. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 6:53 am

    The data shows a very strong correlation between supporting Trump and being anti-vax.

    Given that Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states there are a lot of Black and Hispanic Trump supporters.

    frosty (f27e97)

  327. So you’re going to use sloth to excuse ignorance? Bold strategy. 😉

    https://www.prri.org/research/religious-vaccines-covid-vaccination/

    Since you’re feeling lazy today I’ll quote some key parts

    (the sloth, laziness, and ignorance things are intended to be jokes. You usually provide data to back up what you say and I appreciate that. calling out the joke since enveryone is touchy lately. Hope you’re not upset)

    Opportunities for increasing vaccine uptake are evident in substantial portions of Black, Hispanic, and younger Americans reporting logistical barriers to getting vaccinated.

    More than four in ten Hispanic Protestants (44%) say that having time to get vaccinated or deal with the possible side effects is a critical reason (22%) or one of the reasons (22%) they have not gotten vaccinated yet. More than one-third of Americans ages 18–29 (38%), 30–49 (37%), Black Protestants (37%), and Black Americans (36%) say the same.
    Black Protestants are most likely to report that a health condition is a critical reason (18%) or one of the reasons (18%) they have not gotten vaccinated. About one-third of Hispanic Protestants (34%) also report that health is a critical reason or one of the reasons they have not gotten vaccinated.
    Hispanic Protestants are most likely to report that lack of childcare is an issue (21%), but one in five Black Americans (20%) struggle with this as well. The same is true of having reliable transportation: Hispanic Protestants (21%) and Black Protestants (18%) are most likely to say this is a critical barrier or one of the reasons they have not yet gotten vaccinated.
    Across all four barriers, Republicans, rural Americans, and white evangelical Protestants are no more likely than all Americans to report these as critical challenges or reasons they have not gotten vaccinated, despite their lower-than-average vaccination rates.

    Divisions persist among Republicans by which television news outlets they trust most. Republicans who most trust mainstream news outlets are more likely than Americans on average to be vaccine accepters (77%), while 14% are hesitant and 8% say they will not get vaccinated. More than six in ten Republicans who most trust Fox News report being vaccine accepters (64%), while 18% are hesitant and 18% refuse to get vaccinated. Republicans who do not trust TV news sources are less likely to say they are vaccinated (53% are vaccine accepters, 23% are hesitant, and 24% refuse). Notably, less than half of Republicans who most trust far-right news (45%) are vaccine accepters, while 8% are hesitant and 46% say they refuse to get vaccinated. Republicans who most trust far-right news outlets have become more likely than they were in March (31%) to refuse vaccination.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  328. Given that Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states there are a lot of Black and Hispanic Trump supporters.

    I’ve addressed this before. See the comment I just made to BuDuh for additional explanation.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  329. Frosty, Do you have an answer to if the requirement that children be vaccinated for MMR before they attend school is totalitarian?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  330. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 7:16 am

    Frost, I was clear and specific to deadly and communicable diseases. Do you feel that schools and colleges are totalitarian when they require immunization records before they let students attend?

    We’re talking past each other because you want to generalize this to other vaccines and diseases. I’ve already answered this for COVID. Do you have any specific examples?

    Do you think the HPV vaccine should be mandated by schools and colleges? Or the flu? They are both deadly and communicable.

    frosty (f27e97)

  331. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 8/3/2021 @ 7:26 am

    I was hoping for Norwegian horsegirls today because Tuesday and you delivered. Well done.

    frosty (f27e97)

  332. I’ll just excerpt a little this survey of the percent of subgroups vaccinated, the survey that frosty doesn’t like.

    Democrats: 86%
    White adults: 67%
    Hispanic adults: 63%
    Black adults: 60%
    White evangelicals: 58%
    Rural residents: 54%
    Republicans: 52%

    Yes, I think it’s fair to say that the data shows a very strong correlation between supporting Trump and being anti-vax.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  333. I thought “one dose” was considered unvaccinated, Paul?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  334. @337, I guess my statement wasn’t complete. I’ll expand on it.

    I don’t think requiring vaccination against deadly and communicable diseases before entering public spaces is totalitarian if the vaccination is safe, readily available, and there’s a medical exception. Given the impact of Covid (over 600,000 dead even with the efforts we took) I would support requiring it once it’s approved for your age group.

    Where to draw the link is a public health policy issue and a legitimate function of government. I’m not saying every decision made will be correct or one I agree with, but I think the political process is the right way to balance how deadly/communicable a disease has to be to justify this.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  335. Thanks for the link, Time. And no offense taken to your humor.

    I found this quote interesting:

    Refusals have held steady across most demographic groups, although some subgroups have become significantly less likely to say they will refuse to get vaccinated, including, notably, Black Protestants (19% said they would refuse in March; 13% said they would refuse in June) and Republicans (23% said they would refuse in March; 19% said they would refuse in June).

    Seems like the republicans are improving despite Trump’s efforts.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  336. Paul, I’ve seen that chart but not who did it or how. Do you have that or do you know the methods?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  337. BuDuh, Based on the data it seems like there’s a split within the GOP on this.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  338. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 7:38 am

    Are you referring to @334? That doesn’t address the issue of Black and Hispanic vaccination rates unless you’re doing what I mentioned and assuming those Blacks and Hispanics are R’s.

    frosty (f27e97)

  339. if you read the study it talks about what’s driving low vaccination rates by different demographics. I copied som of the executive summary on that into my comment. it might be easier to understand as a straight assertion of fact and not a targeted response to a specific statement of yours.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  340. @340, probably safe to assume that someone who got one dose isn’t resistant to vaccination in principle.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  341. Joe Biden’s top covid advisor just went on CNN and admitted the masks people are wearing don’t work against covid.

    They don’t prevent the transmission of Covid, as some people, including those writing for newspapers, carelessly say.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/us/politics/covid-pandemic-guidelines.html

    Mask-wearing prevents transmission of the virus to those most at risk.

    Now thw word “prevent” can carry the meaning of partially prevent. But I think they more assume the advice has more justification than it does.

    The standard blue masks we see reduce transmission, by some 30% to 70% – and probably also result in milder cases, and reduce the exponential rate of spread of serious disease.

    Here’s what a previous article said:

    Published July 27, 2020 Updated Nov. 24, 2020

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-protection.html

    Researchers have long known that masks can prevent people from spreading airway germs to others — findings that have driven much of the conversation around these crucial accessories during the coronavirus pandemic.

    But now, as cases continue to rise across the country, experts are pointing to an array of evidence suggesting that masks also protect the people wearing them, lessening the severity of symptoms, or in some instances, staving off infection entirely.

    Different kinds of masks “block virus to a different degree, but they all block the virus from getting in,” said Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease physician at the University of California, San Francisco. If any virus particles do breach these barriers, she said, the disease might still be milder….

    ….Ideas about the importance of viral dose in the development of disease have cropped up in the medical literature since at least the 1930s, when two researchers formally noted that mice exposed to larger quantities of germs were more likely to die. More recently, scientists have gone as far as to puff different amounts of a flu virus up the noses of human volunteers. The more virus in this nasal plume, they found, the likelier the participants were to get infected and experience symptoms.

    …..But earlier this year, a team of researchers in China tried something similar in hamsters: They housed coronavirus-infected and healthy animals in adjoining cages, some of which were separated by buffers made of surgical masks. Many of the healthy hamsters behind the partitions never got infected. And the unlucky animals who did got less sick than their “maskless” neighbors…

    ….More than 80 percent of those infected aboard Japan’s Diamond Princess in February — before masking had become common practice — came down with symptoms, she noted. But on another vessel that left Argentina in March, and on which all passengers were issued surgical masks after someone onboard came down with a fever, the level of symptomatic cases was below 20 percent.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  342. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/3/2021 @ 7:55 am

    You keep pointing to the graphic w/o linking to the underlying article. Is that the one from the survey?

    Because if you go to the KFF site you’ll also find:

    As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.

    Overall, across these 40 states, the percent of White people who have received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose (48%) was roughly 1.3 times higher than the rate for Black people (36%) and 1.2 times higher than the rate for Hispanic people (41%) as of July 19, 2021.

    As of July 19, less than half of Black and Hispanic people have received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose in the vast majority of states reporting data.

    I’m not sure why the survey data doesn’t match the vaccination data. But for those numbers to match the narrative that the epidemic of the unvaccinated is caused by Trumpers there needs to be a lot more Black and Hispanic Trumpers than we’ve seen in other data.

    frosty (f27e97)

  343. @339 that’s not the correlation drawn in the post, which is there’s a correlation between what trump says and the unvaccinated

    there’s a high correlation between democrats and cop killers

    it must’ve been something biden said

    he wants cops killed

    JF (e1156d)

  344. @349 covid vaccine rate spread approximates flu vaccine rate spread across states

    cuz trump is anti flu vaccine

    JF (e1156d)

  345. I thought “one dose” was considered unvaccinated, Paul?

    That’s not my understanding, BuDuh, or the Mayo Clinic’s.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  346. Biden advisor [sic] concedes that “prior infected” have immunity,

    While public health officials have started saying that, that message is not getting through, nor is anyone interested in promoting testing for the presence of antibodies (which test is not so good after several months.)

    We keep hearing news stories about people who got very sick pledging to now get vaccinated. (for purposes of travel to Israel, which is now still extremely limited, prior infection is accepted in lieu of vaccination, but only infections that were contemporaneously diagnosed)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  347. probably safe to assume that someone who got one dose isn’t resistant to vaccination in principle.

    Too bad that they didn’t ask how many were fully vaccinated. That would give a better perspective. We have no idea how many people are not going back for their second shot. Maybe they didn’t like feeling ill after the first shot? Maybe they think one shot is good enough? Who knows?

    I think there was a study on the failure to get the shingles booster shot. It was either on the timing of the second shot or not getting it at all. One can only hope the Covid vulnerable are well informed. And if the survey asked about complete vaccination status, we would have a better idea.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  348. Paul, I’ve seen that chart but not who did it or how. Do you have that or do you know the methods?

    I copied the image from an AllahPundit post, T123, which shows other correlations in addition to the chart from the KFF survey, which he linked to here.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  349. I thought “one dose” was considered unvaccinated,

    Not “fully” vaccinated, except for the Johnson and Johnson vaccine where the protocol now calls for only one dose, even though one dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine provides a greater degree of protection than one dose of J&J.

    But the public health advice is more governed by legal distinctions than scientific ones.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  350. How many people have been vaccinated in each state? This map shows the percentage of each state’s population with at least one dose of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine, plus the percentage of people who are fully vaccinated.

    I’m not sure I see what you saw, Paul. The header has two groups. People with one dose of the vaccine and people who are vaccinated. Is there somewhere else in your link where it says that one dose equals vaccinated, with the obvious exception of the shot that only required one dose.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  351. 310. I know it was a joke (brainstorming you said) but it actually would be a bad idea if it could be done.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  352. Cuomo is in deep guano. I wonder how his new book sales are faring.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  353. Cuomo benefits from “pervert” headlines as they coverup the “murderer” ones.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  354. BuDuh, the Mayo site doesn’t claim the partially vaccinated to be “unvaccinated”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  355. BuDuh (7bca93) — 8/3/2021 @ 8:47 am

    Neither of those seems to bother his constituents. Maybe those are positives.

    frosty (f27e97)

  356. I found this report from March that details the missed second shots. I find their disclaimer to be very troubling:

    The findings in this report are subject to at least four limi- tations. First, second-dose status was unknown for 7.9% of first-dose recipients (i.e., persons with an unknown manu- facturer for the first dose and persons who lived in one state with limited data reporting).

    Second, persons might have been counted twice if they received doses from two different reporting entities or if their first and second doses were not linked because they were assigned a different recipient ID at their second-dose administration, possibly resulting in an underestimate of series completion. This jurisdiction mismatch could have contributed to the series completion and missed dose rates for AI/AN persons because tribal nations can border multiple jurisdictions and also because they might have received their vaccine through a separate allocation to the Indian Health Service. Conversely, if the same recipient ID was assigned to two or more persons in the same reporting entity, doses administered to two separate persons might have been coded as a first and second dose, pos- sibly resulting in an overestimate of series completion.

    Third, several winter weather events led to canceled vaccination clinics and distribution challenges, which might have played a role in certain differences among jurisdictions.

    Finally, race/ethnicity data were missing for 45.9% of persons who had sufficient time to receive the second dose, limiting the ability to interpret dif- ferences in vaccination completion and timing of receipt of the second dose by race/ethnicity.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7011e2-H.pdf

    An 8% margin of error? Are they trying to prolong this pandemic?

    IMO, that 8% number is suspect by the admission made in their second point.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  357. The point is that there appears to be three classifications, not two: Fully, partial and “un”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  358. I see. I guess a partially eaten hot dog isn’t uneaten, so I see your point. But if the hot dog must be fully eaten per the hot dog eating contest rules, it also doesn’t count as eaten.

    Since both you and know the rules of the vaccine contest, you clearly understood the point I was making, but word games…

    I retract my unvaccinated comment and replace it with having only two tires on a four wheel car in a braking contest.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  359. The point is that there appears to be three classifications, not two: Fully, partial and “un”

    I can accept that. Too bad the survey lumped fully and partial in the same category.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  360. My mistake. The 8% screwup is strictly regarding their first point. The second point is a problem in and of itself.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  361. BuDuh (7bca93) — 8/3/2021 @ 8:54 am

    I’m less worried about 8% than I am about the error bars on all of this data. How long did we go with the vaccinated at 69.[some number we are pretending to be a significant digit]%? It seemed like we were at 69.9% forever. We’re throwing around subjective survey data and comparing it against data collected via a known process and pretending the former is better than the latter and ignoring that the collected data has issues too. We’re making substantial policy decisions using “science” and “data” as a club when the “science” and “data” have been shown to be incomplete at best.

    The common mantra seems to be that if you question someone’s data you’re innumerate or [cluth the pearls] not on the same team but hold on I’ve got a tear-jerking heart-rending anecdotal story to tell you about a guy that got sick and regretted his choices and don’t pay attention to the fact that my last several rounds of claims haven’t proven correct.

    Does anyone remember the claims that having the vaccine meant the virus didn’t even get into your body?

    frosty (f27e97)

  362. Does anyone remember the claims that having the vaccine meant the virus didn’t even get into your body?

    Who claimed that?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  363. Data is imperfect but it seems clear the vaccine dramatically reduces hospitalizations and fatalities. We should try to get everyone vaccinated as quickly as we can.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  364. @370 and so what if they did?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  365. Speaking of data, here some data the UK.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2021/07/how-uk-s-covid-19-vaccine-rollout-has-dramatically-reduced-deaths

    Pretty compelling improvement. We should encourage people to get the vaccine as soon as possible.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  366. To the Left, the truth is a buzzing fly.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  367. ‘Meanwhile others are hopeful that they get a third shot.’

    Book early; booster #47: July, 2024.

    _____

    Ring! Ring! Private sector calling: Cuomo now wholly qualified for gigs at Fox, CBS… NBC [news & entertainment divisions]– and all of Hollywood.

    “Hello boys, did you miss me?” – Governor Lepetomane [Mel Brooks] ‘Blazing Saddles’ 1974

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  368. My 2 cents, the federal government does not have a broad police power so a federal vaccine mandate would have a serious constitutional hurdle (non-starter absent some alien invasion scenario and martial law). States do have a police power to deal with health and welfare concerns of its citizens, so there would only be a political hurdle….and the problem of getting coordination. Of course the feds can use economic regulation….of anything that substantially impacts interstate commerce….to regulate how people conduct commerce….but policing this would probably require some sort of passport (not popular)….and would most likely require state enforcement, with many states balking if it was not fully funded or simply not wanting to do it (like selectively enforcing immigration or drug laws).

    I comment a lot about polarization here and its caustic impact on democracy. I think we’re seeing that here with wide-spread skepticism about government and mistrust of the other side. I wonder what it will take for people to come together. If not a pandemic, what?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  369. @376, I wish I had an answer.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  370. ‘I wonder what it will take for people to come together. If not a pandemic, what?’

    See December 7, 1941 for details.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  371. @370 We’ll count you as a no. It’s been in several comments but I’m sure if I post one I’ll be told it was sarcasm. I overstated it a little, and the sarcasm was intended. I’m sure the former will be understandable while the latter will get criticized.

    If you want to look beyond comments here:

    You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations – Joe Biden

    and he wasn’t being sarcastic.

    The following was considered medical misinformation worthy of being banned from social media:

    * vaccinated people can catch COVID
    * vaccinated people can spread COVID
    * the vaccine wasn’t performing as expected against delta
    * the vaccine didn’t provide long term protection

    at least until the CDC came out and confirmed all of those. I think people were getting booted from social media for posting links to the CDC release.

    @372 I keep being told that credibility matters. I keep being told this by people who have damaged their credibility with faulty reasoning, science, and data and who are keen on imposing their will on others.

    frosty (f27e97)

  372. One would think the failures in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the failures by rinos covering up for Clintons Benghazi would pizz people off on both sides and punish the guilty.

    mg (8cbc69)

  373. Thank you, frosty. Biden was appropriately busted for that comment.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  374. Credibility does matter. People should be skeptical of what Biden says. But, despite the fact you don’t want to address the argument head on

    -COVID is a highly contagious diseases that last year killed about 10 times as many people as a bad flu seasons (600,000 vs 60K).
    -The vaccine dramatically reduces your chances of contracting covid. If you do get it your risk of death is near zero.

    Because of that we the more people who we can vaccinate the bettter.

    -Anti-Vax sentiment is high among MAGA (see the data at the link I posted as well as others)
    -RW & MAGA leader have been encouraging this

    It would be good if they would start consistently encouraging he vaccine.

    there are other reasons people aren’t getting vaccinated. Those were discussed in the link I posted also.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  375. Forgot to add that heard immunity reduces the chance of vaccine resistant mutations developing.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  376. It’s “herd immunity” not “heard immunity”

    I don’t think greater immunization reduces the chances of a vaccine resistant mutation developing. It increases it, because that is the only kind that would spread. (similar to the dea of npt overusing antibiotics)

    This is trying to turn every fact into an argument for more people getting vaccinated. No, that would be a counter-argument against mass vaccination (not much of one)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  377. Sammy, thank you. I’ll pay more attention in the future. I’m outside my field, but my understanding was that if we reduce the number of people who have and spread the disease we reduce the population of the vaccine that could potentially mutate. Am I misunderstanding the mechanism?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  378. 360. Cuomo isn’t in such big trouble. Less than Newsome.

    His book sales never went anywhere but that doesn’t matter to him since he got a big advance, and that is not refundable if he writes the book and they accept it..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  379. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 10:51 am

    despite the fact you don’t want to address the argument head on

    This isn’t the problem. The problem is you want to have a different argument.

    I say there are a lot of reasons for people to be skeptical of statements from the Biden admin, the media, D’s, R’s, the CDC, the government generally, “experts”, etc. and you say this is coming from Trump or Trumpers.

    I say I’m against vaccine mandates and you want to have an argument about vaccine hesitancy and how that’s caused by Trump or Trumpers.

    I say hesitancy is high with a number of groups and you say hesitancy is high among MAGA or because of Trump.

    I say it’s understandable why people are disagreeing and you say the other side, MAGA, Trump or whoever, just needs to do whatever you’re side has decided is the current plan.

    You see the pattern right? Every discussion isn’t had head-on because it’s always diverted into you making it about Trump and Trumpers. In fact, with you I don’t think the argument is ever about the fundamental thing. Whatever we’re talking about invariably becomes a proxy for talking about Trump or Trumpers. You get frustrated because I don’t feel compelled to make it about Trump or Trumpers or, as you say, address the argument head-on.

    frosty (f27e97)

  380. It’s herd like a herd of sheep. Now heard (as opposed to seen?) immunity.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 11:13 am

    but my understanding was that if we reduce the number of people who have and spread the disease we reduce the population of the vaccine that could potentially mutate. Am I misunderstanding the mechanism?

    You reduce the number of possibilities – bit for that you must take into account the entire world, but you give any vaccine resistant variant a tremendous advantage. It may take a little more time.

    The people who argue we need to get everybody vaccinated so as to prevent the emergence of vaccine resistant variants just aren’t thinking. Or better, they’re not trying to think this through. Everything becomes an argument for vaccination.

    Variants are most likely to develop, by the way, in the bodies of people with a persistent infection

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  381. Cuomo isn’t in such big trouble……

    Over book sales, maybe (who cares). But I’ll bet he will be impeached over the sexual harassment. The presser was devastating.

    Cuomo and Trump have one thing in common: They both think the NY AG is biased.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  382. I Was the Architect of Operation Warp Speed. I Have a Message for All Americans
    ……..
    …….. [T]he reluctance and even refusal of many Americans — including many of my fellow conservatives and Republicans — to get a Covid-19 vaccine is a frustrating irony for those of us who worked to expedite these vaccines. While the vaccines have had doubts cast upon them by politicians throughout their production and rollout, whether a person lives in a red or a blue state has no bearing on the vaccines’ efficacy. They work incredibly well, and more than 160 million fully vaccinated Americans are proof.

    Whether such skepticism is rooted in political misgivings, conspiracy theories or lack of accurate and timely information, there are still millions of Americans unwilling to take the simplest of steps to end this pandemic. That makes it incumbent upon all leaders and health experts to be honest about how safe and effective the vaccines are and urge vaccination.
    ……..
    Some who are hesitant to get vaccinated point to the fact that the vaccines remain under emergency-use authorization rather than full approval. It’s vital for Democratic and Republican leaders to explain clearly and repeatedly that the F.D.A. held these vaccines to such high standards that the only real difference is that full approval requires steps like analyzing longer-term safety and efficacy data, and inspecting manufacturing facilities. Hundreds of millions of doses of these vaccines have now been given to Americans over the past year, providing us with some of the most robust real-world evidence of their safety and efficacy that we’ve ever had for new vaccines. A vast majority of adverse events with the vaccines occur in the first 42 days or so.
    ……..
    …..[W]e did not predict the politicization of vaccines that has led so many Republicans to hold back. As of mid-July, 43 percent of Republicans said that they have not been vaccinated and definitely or probably wouldn’t be, versus 10 percent of Democrats, according to a poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research. I’m glad former President Trump got vaccinated, but it would have been even better for him to have done so on national television so that his supporters could see how much trust and confidence he has in what is arguably one of his greatest accomplishments.

    The vaccines could be a victory lap for the Republican Party, and I call upon all party leaders and conservatives to double down on encouraging vaccination……
    …….
    In seeking to end this pandemic, the Biden administration is exhorting all unvaccinated adults in our country to get their shots, and I fully support it in this call. It would be tragic to see more lives needlessly lost when we are so close to beating this virus once and for all.
    >>>>>>>>>>>

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  383. George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicki is objecting to the school’s mandatory vaccine policy for faculty and students as a condition to returning to campus. Zywicki is raising an issue that is largely being ignored by the Administration and the media in the push for mandatory vaccine rules by private companies: the millions with natural antibodies to the virus. Zywicki recovered from the virus and says that blood tests confirm that he has antibodies. Given that test, he does not want to expose himself to an unnecessary vaccine given the risk (albeit low) of complications or a negative reaction.
    Zywicki has taught at George Mason since 1998 and is being represented by the New Civil Liberties Alliance. The case could represent an important challenge. The Biden Administration has openly called on private companies to enforce an effective vaccine passport system. However, George Mason is a public institution. Even though it might be able to secure review under the low rational basis test, Zywicki and his supporting experts are saying that there is no rational basis to require him to be vaccinated against a virus that he already has antibodies to combat.
    Zywicki has relied on a letter from his physician who advised him not to get a vaccine. He also has a joint statement from Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford and Martin Kulldorff of Harvard, saying that it makes no sense to require him to get vaccinated when he shows such natural antibodies. They note that “the existing clinical literature overwhelmingly indicates that the protection afforded to the individual and community from natural immunity is as effective and durable as the efficacy levels of the most effective vaccines to date.”
    His case highlights a glaring issue in the failure of the Administration and private businesses to distinguish between unvaccinated individuals and individuals who are unvaccinated but with antibodies. I have not been able to find a clear answer on why people like Zywicki cannot show test on antibodies rather than proof of vaccinations. Studies indicate that recovered victims show the same level of antibodies. It seems like the issue should be antibodies whether produced naturally or through vaccinations. At a minimum, it is worth discussing.
    I was eager to receive the vaccine and my entire family took the first opportunity to become vaccinated. However, I would be interested in reading a full discussion of this issue. However, there are few places where such a discussion is occurring in an uncensored format.The media has portrayed anyone who does not get the vaccine as morons or even terrorists. However, millions have recovered from the virus and may be making the same decision as Zywicki. Part of the problem is that such debates are often banned by social media companies under their censorship policies. You are not allowed to discuss whether it is responsible for some like Zywicki to decline the vaccine due to natural antibodies.

    The university issued a statement that did not address Zywicki’s case directly or even the underlying question of requiring vaccinations for those with natural antibodies. One possibility is that the university could argue that the risk of vaccinations is so low that there is no reasonable basis for declining vaccination. On the other hand, it could claim that the variation among natural antibodies and the administrative burden is very high in allowing such exceptions to be claimed. However, it would seem like the university could simply require a test showing a minimum level of antibodies.
    It is an ironic fight in a school named after George Mason who was a fierce advocate for individual rights. Indeed, George Mason’s motto is “Freedom and Learning” and features the Declaration of Rights on its seal. Mason was the principal drafter of the Declaration.

    https://jonathanturley.org/2021/08/03/george-mason-law-professor-challenges-school-vaccine-mandate/

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  384. No, I’ve raised points in this thread that have nothing to do with Trump or bring up other aspects of the situation.

    For instance you said this

    I say hesitancy is high with a number of groups and you say hesitancy is high among MAGA or because of Trump.

    Yet I’ve pointed out a couple of times that I provided a link to research about things that are driving low vaccine rates in various demographics.

    In 341 I stated my position and what I thought was reasonable. It had nothing to do with Trump or the MAGA movement.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  385. From Rip’s quote:

    It’s vital for Democratic and Republican leaders to explain clearly and repeatedly that the F.D.A. held these vaccines to such high standards that the only real difference is that full approval requires steps like analyzing longer-term safety and efficacy data, and inspecting manufacturing facilities.

    Yeah… who should be concerned about that???

    LOL.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  386. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 11:13 am

    Yes, a little. Your comment assumes that the vaccine provides immunity to all possible future variates of the virus and then it’s removed from existence just by virtue of herd immunity. There’s also an implication that not showing symptoms is the same as stopping the spread.

    Sammy’s comment is similar to what happens with antibiotic resistance.

    It also overlooks something we’re seeing with the delta variant and asymptomatic spread. If the vaccine is spreading among the population but no one is showing symptoms then it can mutate freely into a problematic version.

    There is an important difference between reducing the spread and eliminating the virus.

    The quality of the argument is open to debate as Sammy said but a different analogy might be between the cold and smallpox. The common cold is really an array of various coronaviruses (coronavirus is a relatively generic term). Most people have some form of natural immunity to them but they still spread and mutate, sometimes into something unpleasant. On the other hand, there was a worldwide effort to stop smallpox that involved finding and dealing with every single case. Naturally occurring smallpox was wiped out, i.e. is was eliminated.

    Herd immunity generally creates the common cold situation and not the smallpox situation. The general public is not immune to smallpox and it was not a herd immunity situation.

    frosty (f27e97)

  387. 394. Corners were cut, but these are corners that should not have existed in the first place. And it;s quite crazy to do Ohase II tests after starting Phase III tests.

    It’s vital for Democratic and Republican leaders to explain clearly and repeatedly that the F.D.A. held these vaccines to such high standards that the only real difference is that full approval requires steps like analyzing longer-term safety and efficacy data, and inspecting manufacturing facilities.

    That would amount to arguing with the “science” and they don’t want to.

    They don’t want to say the standards are too high.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  388. Yes, a little. Your comment assumes that the vaccine provides immunity to all possible future variates of the virus and then it’s removed from existence just by virtue of herd immunity. There’s also an implication that not showing symptoms is the same as stopping the spread.

    My understanding, which could be wrong, is that the vaccine reduces your chance to get covid and if enough people were vaccinated it would reduce the rate of replication to something less then 1. This would prevent the vaccine from spreading and staying active and thus reduce it’s opportunity to live and mutate.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  389. Zywicki has relied on a letter from his physician who advised him not to get a vaccine.

    When did he get that note? It;s generally advised not to get one within three months of recovery from Covid. Donald and Melania Trump waited that long, too.

    a glaring issue in the failure of the Administration and private businesses to distinguish between unvaccinated individuals and individuals who are unvaccinated but with antibodies. I have not been able to find a clear answer on why people like Zywicki cannot show test on antibodies rather than proof of vaccinations.

    This probably reflects lobbying by the pharmaceutical companies. Why else even consider the possibility that a vaccine wold confer greater and more long lasting immunity than an infection?

    Of course there are logistical problems with exempting recovered people and someone could have have a mild infection. But anyway he says, look at antibodies. They may be different and a wider variety of antibody than that produced by the vaccine.

    Studies indicate that recovered victims show the same level of antibodies.

    I think studies show that recovered victims usually have more (that is, an infection confers somewhat greater immunity than a single dose of the vaccine) but one shot of Pfizer or Moderna adds something, but two doses don’t, if given on the regular vaccination timetable.

    Anyway, the CDC seems mostly uninterested in this question.

    It seems like the issue should be antibodies whether produced naturally or through vaccinations.

    Yes, it should unless you or the government don’t want to pay for the tests.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  390. The rate of replication is related to how many serious cases there are. As the virus circulates, people, on average, get a higher and higher initial dose, and more and more people get more and more sick, till you get a situation like there was in New Delhi.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  391. frosty @395.

    No, that argument assumes that the vaccine provides immunity to all current varieties of the virus and then it’s removed from existence before a possible future version of the virus that the vaccine does not work to prevent can come into existence.

    But we’re not close to vaccinating the whole world.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  392. Treating all infections, no matter the initial dose, as the same leads to terrible ideas like quarantining together people who are infected. They need to be separated from each other!! And even the single isolated person needs lots of fresh air. Besides Vitammin C, Vitamin D3 etc and the monoclonal antibodies. Which Trump also took credit for (quite correctly, but he didn’t push them enough)

    … Some say, it’s the greatest thing to happen in hundreds of years, two vaccines produced in record time with numerous others on the way, including the Johnson and Johnson vaccine that was approved just yesterday.

    And therapeutic relief also, if you’re sick, we have things now that are incredible. What has taken place over the last year under our administration would have taken any other precedent at least five years. And we got it done in nine months. Everyone says five years, oh, five years.

    Now I don’t know how many people said it would take five years.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  393. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 12:34 pm

    is that the vaccine reduces your chance to get covid and if enough people were vaccinated it would reduce the rate of replication to something less then 1

    This is a case where it’s important to be specific. COVID-19 is a disease that results from an infection from the SARS-COV-2 virus.

    You can be infected by SARS-COV-2, incubate the virus, and shed the virus without having any symptoms of COVID. I’d say that means you didn’t have COVID but everyone isn’t interpreting this the same. You can “catch” a cold virus because you’re always picking up various COV type viruses, host it, and transmit it but unless you felt bad you’d say you didn’t catch a cold meaning you didn’t get sick.

    This is the same way a person can have and spread HIV but not have AIDS.

    So, when someone says it reduces the chance of getting COVID I interpret that as it reduces the chance of you getting the disease, i.e. the symptoms and the immediate consequences thereof. That does not mean you aren’t a host for the virus and giving it a place to replicate and mutate. It might be a less friendly place but that isn’t the same thing.

    The issue of viral load that Sammy mentions is a complicating process and it’s not binary.

    You’ve said to reduce the rate of replication to less than 1 which I understand as meaning we’re talking about person-to-person transmission and not viral replication within the person. This is also inconsistently used to talk about the vaccine’s ability to reduce the viral load within the person and the viral load the person sheds. Those are related but not the same thing. It’s possible to reduce the viral load within the person and the load the person sheds and the shedding still be enough to spread the virus.

    I’d say we don’t have enough data to suggest that the vaccine brings R less than 1 but that’s one of the many things that gets me labeled a vaccine skeptic.

    frosty (f27e97)

  394. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 8/3/2021 @ 12:53 pm

    Agreed. I worded that incorrectly to the point of being mistaken.

    frosty (f27e97)

  395. @401, according to the CDC the vaccine helps prevent you from getting Covid at all. I haven’t seen a clean explanation of by how much or clarity on what exactly they mean. I assume from the wording that they mean you don’t replicate it, not that you’re asymptomatic

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  396. Also, not trying to be dismissive or curt. I just don’t have time to write much on this atm.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  397. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/3/2021 @ 2:05 pm

    You are now maybe seeing why I’m not a fan of the quality of information we’ve been getting or people’s understanding of it.

    The phrase “at all” is a hopeful reading of that site. The link you sent doesn’t say that. And this isn’t a gotcha it doesn’t literally say that response.

    COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at preventing COVID-19 disease, especially severe illness and death.

    COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19.

    This page says it was updated on June 25th but

    How long COVID-19 vaccines protect people

    and

    How effective the vaccines are against new variants

    are comments that I’ve been making, and getting pushback here as being anti-vax, well after the 25th.

    I interpret

    keeping you from getting

    as keep you from having symptoms. I’m in the minority but it’s also why I don’t trust the delta R numbers.

    Population immunity makes it hard for a disease to spread from person to person.

    but not impossible. Virology, epidemiology, probability, and stats are stone-cold b1tches.

    The existence of breakout cases by themselves didn’t clue you in that something was wrong with your “at all” reading? Or every time someone said “and if you get it the chances of getting sick or dying is much lower”?

    frosty (f27e97)

  398. Frosty, My understanding is that the vaccine does an imperfect job of preventing you from contracting the virus and that imperfection is responsible for the break out cases.

    Time123 (f78123)

  399. I interpret

    keeping you from getting

    as keep you from having symptoms. I’m in the minority but it’s also why I don’t trust the delta R numbers.

    Seems like this would be answered in the clinical results. Have you looked?

    Time123 (f78123)

  400. @406 we’re drifting from @385 now correct?

    If the vaccine does an imperfect job why did you think it prevented you from getting COVID “at all”, i.e. you don’t replicate it? You have to be replicating it to be a breakout case. Are you thinking it’s binary? Those people protected by the vaccine are shedding zero SARS-COV-2 and those not protected are shedding some non-zero amount that may be less than that spread by an unvaccinated SARS-COV-2 carrier?

    It may be possible but I think the underlying mechanism is both more complex than that and not well enough understood to make strong claims like that. But the original point was about herd immunity and the population available for mutation. Everything you say can be true and you’ve still got a population available for mutation. I think, for example, that if we randomly tested everyone we’d find a lot more SARS-COV-2 in the set of both vaccinated and unvaccinated than we think exists.

    frosty (f27e97)

  401. Time123 (f78123) — 8/3/2021 @ 2:54 pm

    I don’t understand your question. Maybe you look in the clinical results and tell me what you’re looking for?

    frosty (f27e97)

  402. 402. frosty (f27e97) — 8/3/2021 @ 1:46 pm

    This is the same way a person can have and spread HIV but not have AIDS.

    I don;t think so. Every person infected with HIV will get AODS unless they belong to a 1% minority among Europeans, and it won;t be cleared from the system. And people are said to have Covid if infected at all – it’s not a later or more severe stage of the disease.

    So, when someone says it reduces the chance of getting COVID I interpret that as it reduces the chance of you getting the disease, i.e. the symptoms and the immediate consequences thereof. That does not mean you aren’t a host for the virus and giving it a place to replicate and mutate. It might be a less friendly place but that isn’t the same thing.

    It reduces the chance of a positive test result, partially because it reduces the window in which the test will be positive.

    The issue of viral load that Sammy mentions is a complicating process and it’s not binary.

    Of course it isn’t binary.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  403. The San Francisco Department of Public Health and Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital said Tuesday they are allowing patients who received Johnson & Johnson’s single-dose Covid-19 vaccine to get a second shot produced by either Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna.

    J&J recipients can make a special request to get a “supplemental dose” of an mRNA vaccine, city health officials said in a statement to CNBC, declining to call the second shots “boosters.” J&J’s vaccine requires only one dose and recipients are considered fully vaccinated two weeks after receiving the shot….

    … Health officials said they do not recommend booster shots at this time, aligning with guidance from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    “This move does not represent a change in policy for SFDPH,” the public health department said in a statement. “We continue to align with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidance and do not recommend a booster shot at this time. We will continue to review any new data and adjust our guidance, if necessary.”

    The CDC does not currently recommend Americans mix Covid shots in most circumstances, and federal health officials say booster doses of the vaccines are not needed at this time….

    … a new study has suggested the J&J vaccine is much less effective against the delta and lambda variants than against the original virus. The researchers who led the study, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, now say they hope J&J recipients will eventually receive a booster shot of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine.

    The new research is at odds with a study from J&J, which found the shot is effective against delta, especially against severe disease and hospitalization, even eight months after inoculation. It is likely to reignite the debate of mixing and matching shots in the U.S. as the highly contagious delta variant continues to spread across the U.S.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/03/jj-covid-vaccine-recipients-can-get-supplemental-pfizer-or-moderna-shots-in-san-francisco.html

    Normally I would ask if an entity in the article wishes to prolong the pandemic, but this target rich environment leaves me satired out.

    What the heck is going on here? Don’t they know that all the necessary studies have been completed?

    Hopefully this mess makes it to the next vaccine hesitancy poll.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  404. I guess I should have at least said GET. THE. MISMATCHED. SUPPLEMENTAL. DOSE. ALREADY.

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  405. Let’s use math here, these vaccines are 95% effective in preventing infection or severe illness of Covid. 95% isn’t 100%, that’s why the numbers are different. Now, not vaccine is 0% effective, there is a pretty big difference between none and 95%.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  406. A union representing teachers in New York on Monday came out against the state’s vaccine mandate for public workers, saying while it does encourage teachers to get vaccinated, it will not support a requirement.

    “We have advocated since the beginning of the year that any educator who wants a vaccine should have easy access to one,” the New York State United Teachers (NYSUT) union said in a statement.

    “We would support local efforts to encourage more vaccinations, such as through programs that require that those who are not vaccinated get tested on a regular basis. But it’s critical that districts come up with plans to make testing available on-site and at no cost. What we have not supported is a vaccine mandate,” NYSUT added.

    https://www.thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/566024-new-york-state-teachers-union-opposes-staff-vaccine-mandates

    Why do teachers want to prolong the pandemic?

    BuDuh (7bca93)

  407. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 8/3/2021 @ 4:16 pm

    And people are said to have Covid if infected at all – it’s not a later or more severe stage of the disease.

    And I’m suggesting this isn’t the best way to discuss COVID (the disease and its symptoms) and SARS-COV-2 the virus and its transmissibility. When you tell someone that you won’t get the symptoms of COVID if you’ve had the vaccine and you also imply that not having the symptoms means there is no possibility of spreading the virus.

    frosty (f27e97)

  408. 412.

    The new research is at odds with a study from J&J, which found the shot is effective against delta, especially against severe disease and hospitalization even eight months after inoculation.

    If it has eight months followup, the shots must have been administered noo later than November, and this is probably from the pre-authorization clinical trials. That means they are talking about the old Delta, but there ar e three versions of delta I think.

    It is likely to reignite the debate of mixing and matching shots in the U.S. as the highly contagious delta variant continues to spread across the U.S.

    In the U.S. because mixing is being done in som other countries.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-decision-to-mix-vaccines-could-cause-travel-difficulties-for-millions

    While research has shown that mixing a viral vector vaccine, such as AstraZeneca, followed by an mRNA vaccine, such as Pfizer, produces a significant immune response, some countries, including many in the European Union, don’t recognize certain vaccines and vaccine combinations.

    That means that those with mixed doses may not be considered fully vaccinated and could require additional COVID-19 safety measures such as testing and quarantining. Cruise lines can also deny boarding to passengers

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-conservatives-push-feds-to-ensure-canadians-who-got-mixed-covid-19

    Tory health critic Michelle Rempel Garner sent a letter Thursday to Health Minister Patty Hajdu highlighting multiple reports of Canadians being barred entry to countries due to their mixed vaccinations.

    The Calgary Nose Hill MP said in the absence of federal direction, provincial health authorities have begun to offer third doses to Canadians who need to travel where their vaccination status is not recognized abroad.

    She said the Quebec Health Department is telling potential recipients the safety of this practice is unclear and that they should seek advice to weigh the risks of a third dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines.

    Risks: All medical treatments are considered guilty of causing harm until proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  409. frosty (f27e97) — 8/3/2021 @ 5:34 pm

    When you tell someone that you won’t get the symptoms of COVID if you’ve had the vaccine and you also imply that not having the symptoms means there is no possibility of spreading the virus.

    Actually I think it’s mostly speculation as to how much, if any, someone who tests positive but is asymptomatic can spread the virus. Some people want them to use less sensitive tests and avoid the issue.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  410. BuDuh (7bca93) — 8/3/2021 @ 5:13 pm

    Why do teachers want to prolong the pandemic?

    Well, the pbvious reason is because with remote learning and no student achievement tests they can’t, even in principle, be fired or put on probation, but Nic I think said teachers want to teach.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  411. It’s really hard to take people advocating this seriously. I think they’re sincere, but completely unhinged from reality.

    https://www.mediamatters.org/newsmax/newsmax-guest-calls-effort-vaccinate-americans-framework-future-genocide

    GIBSONThis comes straight out of the Marxist handbook, right? You try to set as many different groups against each other as you can in a nation to weaken it, tear it apart, and rebuild it in the image you want. At first, in America, it was racial tension – Black versus white. Now we’re moving from vaccinated to the unvaccinated.

    And I’ll tell you, it’s scary because whenever you see guys saying, you see leaders saying, you can go to the gym if you have the vaccination. You see the president talking about the problem that is the unvaccinated. These things have played out before in history. Where you take a certain group of people and demonize them. And I’ll tell you what it is, it’s a framework for animosity between two groups at best. At worst, it’s a framework for a future genocide. We need to stand up and speak out against this kind of stuff. This isn’t even FDA approved. It is insanity.

    GRANT STINCHFIELD (HOST): Well, look pastor, I appreciate you coming on the program with the strong voice because I think others will learn from you. And I think others who are pastors as well will learn from this that there’s strength in numbers. And so I appreciate you laying it on the line for us. God bless you, sir.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  412. Sammy & Frosty, you might find this and the study liked by silver, interesting

    https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1422878323827433472?s=21

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  413. @419 – You know what else used to be unhinged from reality? The idea that COVID came from a lab in Wuhan. Also, that the government would ignore the law and tell landlords people don’t have to pay them. Also, the idea that you wouldn’t be able to go to a show or a restaurant in NY w/o the proper paperwork.

    frosty (f27e97)

  414. If you want to be as crazy as he is go right ahead. Just don’t expect people to take you seriously if you can’t distinguish between “The virus probably didn’t come from a lab escape” and “WHITE GENOCIDE”

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  415. @420 – I liked this comment from the thread:

    I think a lot of people were under the impression that two shots would make them immune for life — not that two shots + annual boosters would “lower their viral load.”

    We went from you won’t get it “at all” to “it’s complicated” which is what I’ve been saying from the start. In the meantime telling people what they wanted to hear has undermined confidence.

    frosty (f27e97)

  416. The complicated nature of how this works would undermine confidence a lot less if every new learning or partially answered. Questions weren’t misrepresented as evidence that all theories are equally valid and exploited to stoke fear by grifters and lunatics that think this might reasonably be thought of as a step towards genocide.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  417. Most Unvaccinated Adults See the Vaccines as a Greater Health Risk than COVID-19 Itself

    Well, there you go, people too dumb to know the difference. Willfully ignorant, mentally disturbed…dumb…DUMB. And a deadly risk to everyone, including themselves.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  418. This is interesting and explains some of what I see going on.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/vaccine-refusers-dont-want-blue-americas-respect/619627/

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  419. Well, there you go, people too dumb to know the difference. Willfully ignorant, mentally disturbed…dumb…DUMB.

    And poor Mr. Not-President Trump relied on them to make him President again. Building on sand, Trumpcakes like are.

    nk (1d9030)

  420. frosty (f27e97) — 8/4/2021 @ 9:04 am

    Also, the idea that you wouldn’t be able to go to a show or a restaurant in NY w/o the proper paperwork.

    That kicks in September 13.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  421. If you want more people to get vaccinated, you could offer and promote antibody tests before.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  422. 93% of the cases in Florida are delta, and 91% in one hospital are unvaccinated.

    There seem to be some signs that the infection is more serious than before and has different symptoms.

    I’m sure somebody knows what the significant mutations are but its not getting reported yet.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)


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