Patterico's Pontifications

9/7/2017

Equifax Executives Sold Stock Worth Over $1 Million Before Announcement of Giant Data Breach

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:50 pm

You may have heard about the Equifax breach in which hackers got access to Social Security numbers of up to 143 million people — probably including you and me. Looks like some Equifax executives may have profited (or at least avoided losses) on the news:

Three Equifax Inc. senior executives sold shares worth almost $1.8 million in the days after the company discovered a security breach that may have compromised information on about 143 million U.S. consumers.

The trio had not yet been informed of the incident, the company said.

The credit-reporting service said late Thursday in a statement that it discovered the intrusion on July 29. Regulatory filings show that three days later, Chief Financial Officer John Gamble sold shares worth $946,374 and Joseph Loughran, president of U.S. information solutions, exercised options to dispose of stock worth $584,099. Rodolfo Ploder, president of workforce solutions, sold $250,458 of stock on Aug. 2. None of the filings lists the transactions as being part of 10b5-1 scheduled trading plans.

You probably will not be surprised to learn that the stock plummeted today on the announcement. Had these executives held on to the stock, they would have lost a lot of money. But instead, knowing about the breach, they sold the stock before the breach was announced.

It sounds outrageous, but the company claims that the sales represented “a small percentage of their Equifax shares.” Different people define “small” differently. I have a feeling the SEC will be taking a close look at this. If there were hijinks, someone might be going to prison. (Then again, maybe these dudes are members at one of Trump’s golf clubs and will skate. You never know!)

It is an interesting question whether insider trading should be illegal. The fact that we may recoil at it does not mean it is necessarily bad for society. And there are rational arguments that suggest that insider trading is a good thing, because it helps spread information. As economist Bob Murphy says:

In a nutshell, insider trading is beneficial because it moves market prices closer to where they ought to be. Those profiting from “inside knowledge” actually share that knowledge with the rest of the world through their buying and selling.

Murphy argues that if you parse out who actually loses when insider trading occurs, it’s not the public at large, but just other investors who might have done better through dumb luck. Meanwhile, when insiders profit from their greater knowledge, that knowledge is spread, to the benefit of the public.

Consider these facts from the above story: the company discovered the breach on July 29 — and we are just hearing about it today, on September 7. Was there a cover-up due to embarrassment, or a desire to minimize the company’s damages, to the detriment of the public? Perhaps. On the other hand, there might have been good law-enforcement related reasons for the delay:

The Atlanta-based company declined to comment on that delay or anything else beyond its published statement. It’s not unusual for U.S. authorities to ask a company hit in a major hack to delay public notice so that investigators can pursue the perpetrators.

And yet, that is cold comfort to anyone who is harmed by the breach, yet could have protected themselves over the last month. Perhaps allowing insider trading could have helped communicate news of the breach faster, even if the company — for legitimate or illegitimate reasons — kept the knowledge of the breach closely guarded.

Since I am not a securities law expert, I am also puzzled by exactly what it means to profit from insider knowledge, and where the line is drawn. If you sell your shares before announcing the breach, you’re probably profiting from the insider knowledge. But what if you set up one computer (or even browser tab) to effect a sale of stock, and set up another computer (or browser tab) to send a press release about the breach? Either can be accomplished by the push of a button. If you press the buttons in rapid succession — but press the button to send the press release first — have you profited from the insider information? Probably. So how long do you have to wait?

There may be settled answers to these questions. But I don’t know what they are — and if there are, chances are that the rules don’t make a whole lot of sense.

All this theoretical talk aside, I still kinda want to see these executives suspended above a vat of boiling oil by a sturdy cord wrapped firmly around their testicles.

Would that benefit society? Maybe not. But those of us who have almost certainly had their personal information stolen might consider it a very worthwhile project.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

156 Responses to “Equifax Executives Sold Stock Worth Over $1 Million Before Announcement of Giant Data Breach”

  1. Dingaling.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. this news came out i thought before the bell

    and yet the stock’s up on the day

    that seems really odd

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  3. oops sorry

    i’m still getting used to duckduck

    it sent me here and i got confuzzled by the afterhours number

    shoulda gone here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. wait no i was right

    it was up on the day and is down after close

    but i coulda sworn i saw this story on drudge during trading hours

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  5. hmm

    only conclusion i guess is the news came out after the bell so there’s no use spending time tracking down the when and how the news got out

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. The equity markets are already rigged for the big boys who have access to senior business managers and who have created super-sophisticated computer models/analytics which give them insurmountable edges over everyone else.

    Legal Liability? I commend to you a fabulous book which outlines just how immune the big boys are to meaningful prosecutions, regardless the severity of the breaking of regulatory law. The Chickensh+t Club by Jesse Eisenger. It’s a heckuva look into how the Deep State rolls, generally, as well.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  7. The last line of the story I linked says:

    Equifax shares tumbled 13 percent to $124 in extended trading at 7:49 p.m. in New York.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  8. tomorrow will be interesting

    i guess the market has the yahoo template to work from

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. Ozzy used to work for mci since 1999, but heck it was probably the Russians, isn’t that the default now, it keeps Mueller in suspenders and tie clips.

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. The opm had 20 million govt records filched, any consequences to that, rhetorical.

    narciso (d1f714)

  11. CROSS POSTED AT RUSSIAN/WIKILEAKS.COMMIE.

    GUS (30b6bd)

  12. POOOOOTERICO shares have tumbled a great deal more.

    GUS (30b6bd)

  13. …puzzled by exactly what it means to profit from insider knowledge…

    If caught and convicted, in all likelihood heavy fines– and jail.

    “You’re under arrest, Mr. Fox, for conspiracy to commit Securities fraud and for violating the Insider Trader’s Sanction Act.” – ‘Wall Street’ 1987

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  14. Donald Trump promised that crime would end after he was inaugurated. Had he kept his campaign promise, this incident would not have occurred.

    Trump should be held financially accountable for the losses of Equifax shareholders, and for anyone who suffers identity theft as a result of the data breach.

    There need to be consequences for government officials who don’t keep their promises.

    “The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon come to an end. Beginning on January 20, 2017, safety will be restored.” – Donald Trump, Republican National Convention

    Dave (445e97)

  15. Companies that gather information on people, and store and use that to their profit, should be liable for any and all damages that result from exposure of that data. Persons who are negligent should be criminally liable. If Trump were the man he pretends to be, this would already be a rule.

    This should also apply to government data collectors as well, but I won’t hold my breath.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  16. As for the sellers, it’s hard to believe they would have committed a felony to avoid a 15% loss on a fraction of their holdings. It would be really really dumb.

    Kevin M (752a26)


  17. The opm had 20 million govt records filched, any consequences to that, rhetorical.

    And those were a frack lot more than social security numbers. Some of those security questionnaires are like “List your relationships during the last 7 years.” “List all foreign persons you have had contact with.” Etc. And your fingerprints.

    They eventually fired the Chicana they put in place to have the right sex and color, but it took them a while.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  18. Companies that gather information on people, and store and use that to their profit, should be liable for any and all damages that result from exposure of that data. Persons who are negligent should be criminally liable.

    I don’t know about “criminally liable” but I would think civil remedies are available to people damaged by a company’s negligence in this way, unless by contract the victim has waived their rights.

    In the case of, say, a bank, you agree to what you and the bank are and aren’t liable for when you open the account, and I think that is fine. If there is sufficient demand, the market will offer higher security services for a price that reflects the cost of providing the additional security.

    Equifax is a bit odd, since (if I understand correctly what the company does) the people whose information was exposed might not have ever agreed to a contractual relationship with them. IANAL, but I would think they could well have significant exposure here.

    Dave (445e97)

  19. Their good capitalists. The individual is everything the state nothing. william edward hickman is my ideal. ayn rand. libertarian conservatism in action.

    william e hickman (5a21d9)

  20. Do I care if Big Jule brings loaded dice to the crap game with Nathan Detroit and Sky Masterson? Insider trading is an “insider problem” — for other traders and the reputation of their numbers racket. If the general public is worried about cheating: “Just don’t play!”

    Stuff like this is a distraction from the Super Big Giant Fraud perpetrated on the public by limited liability entities. The existence of limited liability entities. They should not exist. Every participant in an enterprise should be personally responsible for every action of the enterprise. That’s how you get fershluginer corporate fershluginer responsibility.

    nk (9651fb)

  21. White collar crime prosecutions are basically Al Capone getting the Chicago police to gun down Bugs Moran’s men on St. Valentine’s Day. Racketeers who have gotten their tentacles into government and are using the taxpayer-enacted law enforcement machinery to protect their rackets. If Wall Street wants to prevent its wise guys from engaging in inside trading, it should send its own torpedoes to take the violators for a ride.

    nk (9651fb)

  22. Stuff like this is a distraction from the Super Big Giant Fraud perpetrated on the public by limited liability entities. The existence of limited liability entities. They should not exist. Every participant in an enterprise should be personally responsible for every action of the enterprise.

    Hmm. I think in this case, one individual has a monopoly on culpability, though: Donald Trump.

    Investors, hearing Trump’s false and misleading assurance that crime would cease, would have entirely discounted the possibility of such a risk.

    And the company’s officers, being similarly deceived and misled by Trump’s promise, would have been remiss not to cut-back, if not zero out, the budget for security.

    Dave (445e97)

  23. Bushs’ Trump’s fault. Right.

    A fool and his money (5515cb)

  24. Mf global, countrywide aig, rattners own quadrangle all escaped serious accountability, why was that

    narciso (d1f714)

  25. If you really want to protect yourself from things like this, learn how to freeze your credit reports. Here is a good article on it.

    https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/06/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-embrace-the-security-freeze/

    For those that don’t know Brian Krebs, he investigates security and breaches like this. Here is his article on this breach.

    https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/09/breach-at-equifax-may-impact-143m-americans/

    I’m not affiliated with him or his site in any way. I’m just a fan.

    ay (7b1435)

  26. For the same reason Al Capone was sent to Alcatraz and Wirtz Corp. sells most of the liquor in Illinois.

    nk (9651fb)

  27. Chico, this is America. First, you get the money. Then you get the power. When you have the money and the power, you get your granddaughter beatified.

    nk (9651fb)

  28. Substitute Koreans for Native Americans in that bio, and you have Rev. Hoagie.

    urbanleftbehind (250c5f)

  29. I wonder what percentage of their wealth the Drexel family distributed to the poor? Money is a good servant, but a bad master.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  30. I once thought about freezing my credit after I became aware of attempts to falsely open accounts in my name. Fortunately, it did not come to that. I know how to conduct my business strictly in cash, so I was not worried about possible complications. But let me tell you, it was a most unpleasant experience.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  31. On-topic. There are so many ways to “place a bet” in the market, that are available to “the big boys” that restricting insider trading does nothing to them. Indeed, the restriction of insider trading is just a spite-full way of punishing “insiders” for protecting their interests.

    Have you ever seen the posture adopted by soccer players defending a free-kick?

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  32. Shylocks chiseling each other, I’d say.

    nk (9651fb)

  33. BTW nk, I laughed at your #29 comment.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  34. I watched the video of the last Al Smith Dinner, the one with Trump and Hillary. Visions of camels marching through the eyes of needles to the tune of “Stairway to Heaven” passed through my head.

    nk (9651fb)

  35. Mine, too. However, Jesus says “..a rich man…” so Hill has that going for her.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  36. You mean it wasnt the Maria Bartiromo Maxim special?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  37. The trio had not yet been informed of the incident, the company said.

    “That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.”

    Patricia (5fc097)

  38. 18. As for the sellers, it’s hard to believe they would have committed a felony to avoid a 15% loss on a fraction of their holdings. It would be really
    really dumb.

    at did not stop Martha Stewart. The loss was a greater percent of the investment but it was also a pittance compared to her net worth. Sometimes people simply don’t take the time to think about what they are doing.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  39. … knowing about the breach …

    What are you basing your claim that they knew about the breach when they sold on?

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  40. Murphy argues that if you parse out who actually loses when insider trading occurs, it’s not the public at large, but just other investors who might have done better through dumb luck. …

    I am not impressed by the distinction between the public at large and people who own stock.

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  41. … And there are rational arguments that suggest that insider trading is a good thing, …

    In my opinion these arguments are largely nonsense.

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  42. for all we know this operation was perpetrated by failmerica’s sleazy corrupt fbi to screw over the president

    they’re just that trashy and petty you know

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  43. I am not impressed by the distinction between the public at large and people who own stock.

    Most of the public at large does not look to enrich itself from the labor of others by going silent partners with Shylocks.

    nk (9651fb)

  44. GUS represents the JOM intellectual contingent.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  45. James, I am thinking that the phrase “public at large” to be a polite euphemism for “the poor,” at least in his own mind.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  46. I’m still trying to figure out what kind of a system we live under that would expect people not to act on information that affects their finances, livelihood, income and future when available. Yeah, I know *insider trading*. That usually means a guy got better information than you did and you’re pissed. The very idea that an entire industry which depends on volatile, urgent information has the balls to prosecute “some” people for using it astonishes me.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  47. Mr. GUS is a spirited free thinker

    knows his own mind, that one

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  48. So Equifax is now offering something similar to LifeLock, only free… if you’ll agree to it be a part of any suit for damages.

    Lol.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  49. Here’s some insider info you can keep in your bank, if the Fed’s let you keep it there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  50. Invest in cannabis futures.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  51. Most of the public at large does not look to enrich itself from the labor of others by going silent partners with Shylocks.

    The meaning of this escapes me. Most people are fine with having bank accounts that pay interest.

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  52. James, I am thinking that the phrase “public at large” to be a polite euphemism for “the poor,” at least in his own mind.

    Lots of laws mostly benefit the rich. I wouldn’t argue against kidnapping laws on the grounds that they mostly benefit the rich.

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  53. James B. @55. You’re right. I should have stuck to Damon Runyon and stayed out of Shakespeare.

    nk (9651fb)

  54. If there is sufficient demand, the market will offer higher security services for a price that reflects the cost of providing the additional security.

    Yes, and very soon software EULAs will drop the clauses making them liable for nothing. It may be that the companies don’t collude, but their lawyers certainly adopt “standards.”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  55. If there is sufficient demand, the market will offer higher security services for a price that reflects the cost of providing the additional security.</blockquote

    That won't happen without government regulation. These "credit companies" won't even let you see your own credit. They won't allow you to challenge anything unless you're willing to jump through hoops, sometimes for months. These are clowns that make a damn good living collecting YOUR credit info without your authorization, compiling it then selling access to YOUR PERSONAL FINANCES to third parties without your consent. And if you call them to ask something the attitude is *screw you*.

    I'm one of the last guys to turn to the feds for relief but if there ever was an area that needs consumer reform it is the practices and regulation of credit *bureaus* like Equifax and the ridiculous fees, late fees, and interest on credit cards. My wife had an employee who was always bitching about a 50 cent ATM charge but was paying on a Discover card with a 26.9% annual rate. Penny wise, pound foolish.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  56. The current scheme of federal securities regulation is geared toward disclosures, not prohibitions. Sophisticated traders can and do closely monitor required public filings about insider stock transactions precisely because they may indeed be useful indicia of attitudes within a company.

    What’s missing from this story is the context that would be essential to determine whether these insider sales were made by people who indeed had access by virtue of their positions to material, not-yet-publicly disclosed information that could reasonably be predicted to affect the stock price, and whether those insider sales were clearly made in reaction to that inside information. If it were shown, for example, that those same insiders had been making comparable sales on a monthly basis for six months prior, that would be very powerful exculpatory evidence. Moreover, in trying to decide the effects of such insider sales, one must compare their size and value to the total market capitalization of the company, the volatility of its stock at other times, and a host of other factors.

    Several commenters here seem not to be aware, or perhaps are just being insufficiently mindful if they are aware, of the vast difference between publicly traded companies whose stocks are sold on exchanges like the NYSE or NASDAQ, and privately held companies (like Trump’s, for example). Only the former have duties of disclosure to the public generally. But when one decides to take one’s company public, go through the registration statement process, and then make all the required quarterly and annual filings required by the ’34 Act and its progeny, one gives up his expectations of being able to make decisions on the basis of material information about the company that hasn’t been disclosed through those required filings.

    That’s one reason why, for instance, Donald Trump’s business experience is pathetically limited when compared to, say, Rex Tillerson’s. Trump may have the bigger personal fortune, but he has utterly no experience in running — or even working for — a publicly traded company, so Trump is used to operating in total secrecy, and to being able to bury, buy off, or cover up his idiotic mistakes (of which I assure you there have been hundreds over the course of his career). Tillerson, by contrast, is used to being under a microscope lit by an anti-aircraft spotlight, in which his casual offhand comment about some potential deal or earnings likelihood can turn into years of ruinous securities litigation, against not only his employer (ExxonMobil in his case) but him personally as an officer.

    When I graduated from law school in 1980, two of the hottest, sexiest areas of law that attracted the best and brightest lawyers (deal and trial) were securities and antitrust. Antitrust law is now a shadow of what it once was, and that’s mostly appropriate. But I’m distressed to find that among today’s law school graduates, only tiny minorities ever bother to take even a basic course in securities law and regulation, and they therefore have no clue whatsoever about how those laws define the channels through which most international commerce must be conducted.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  57. The specific reason I mentioned the necessity of knowing the context is because quite often, insiders aren’t selling stock they bought themselves in their personal capacities on the open market, but “option stock” or other types of stock that was given to them, or sold to them directly by the company at preferential rates, as part of their overall employment compensation packages. Federal law typically requires that such stock be held for a long enough period of time to ensure that the markets will have caught up to whatever insider information those people might have, and thereafter sets limits as to how much they can sell at any given time. Thus, it’s not at all uncommon to find insiders selling stock at regular intervals in limited amounts, not because of new insider information, but because they’ve already been trying to liquidate, in compliance with the law, the otherwise entirely illiquid stock they may have acquired through exercises of options or other employment compensation.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  58. James B. Shearer (c8deb5) — 9/8/2017 @ 9:14 am

    Neither do I.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  59. Good comments, Beldar.

    DRJ (15874d)

  60. “That’s one reason why, for instance, Donald Trump’s business experience is pathetically limited when compared to, say, Rex Tillerson’s. Trump may have the bigger personal fortune, but he has utterly no experience in running — or even working for — a publicly traded company,…”

    I agree, with one exception: I wouldn’t use the word “pathetically,” but rather “inadequately.” It is more charitable – and more likely to persuade his supporters to your view. I find myself empathizing with both Trump and his supporters, more often than not, due to headwinds arrayed against him from every quarter.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  61. @ nk (#22): We disagree about limited liability. What you recommend was indeed what the law provided for centuries. But for well more than a century and a half, the world (led by the UK and the US) have moved to a different model in which the law permits people to invest a limited amount of their capital in a business run by others at least in part, without thereby exposing their entire net worths to risk from litigation. Without that protection, those investments wouldn’t be made at all, and we’d still be riding on choo-choo trains with steam locomotives.

    When I fill up at Exxon, I don’t have any expectation, legitimate or otherwise, that if the gas fouls my engine, I can sue Mr. Exxon. I’m on notice from the word “Corporation” at the end of its name that Mr. Exxon isn’t standing behind the company’s commitments.

    Now there are indeed situations in which personal liability remains incredibly important. Lloyd’s of London still underwrites the most complicated insurance deals in the world on the basis of its “names,” its principals’ personal obligations, without limit. Or consider the consortium of banks, pension funds, and other long-term institutional investors who provided the interim financing for the Trump International in Chicago. They were dealing with a man, Donald Trump, who was already well known — infamous is the only proper word, actually — for hiding behind limited liability of various shell companies, so that he could (and regularly did) break the promises those companies had made without putting a dime of his own money at risk thereby. On a financial undertaking involving hundreds of millions, those lenders insisted that as an absolute precondition to loaning the money, Trump had to give a personal guarantee of $25M of the corporate debt his entities were incurring. They did so out of the mistaken belief that Trump’s personal word was more valuable than his word as given on behalf of limited-liability entities he controlled. And they — like everyone who voted for Trump in the GOP primaries — were inevitably proven to be suckers when Trump’s companies defaulted on their obligations in 2008 and he likewise defaulted on his personal guarantee, filing preemptive litigation to claim that the bursting of the real estate bubble was an “act of God” that excused him from personal liability.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  62. Yes, I agree, DRJ. Good comments, Beldar.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  63. I find myself empathizing with both Trump and his supporters,

    I would say I empathize with Trump but most assuredly not a good deal of his supporters. I’ve been prepared for this in life – because of my south side Cubs fandom – I dont suffer White Sox fandom well, though I like their ballpark experience way better than that drunken urinal on the North Side.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  64. felipe (#64), I don’t mean to imply that everyone who runs a private company is pathetically, or otherwise, limited in relevant business and management experience. There are many conspicuous contrary examples of people who decline to go private precisely so they can avoid the costs, both to fisc and privacy, of being subject to continuing SEC regulation.

    To assess the integrity of such private companies, one looks not to SEC disclosures, but to the trail of litigation they’ve left behind. Trump’s trail clearly identifies him as a serial con artist to anyone who cares to look. Most of the American voting public didn’t.

    By contrast, one of the most brilliant businessmen and managers I’ve ever seen or known of is a fellow named Gerald D. Hines here in Houston, who’s exactly the kind of successful international real estate developer that Donald Trump only pretends to be. The firm I worked for in the 1980s was Mr. Hines’ regular outside counsel, and our deal lawyers did amazing deals for him all over the world. But I was one of the team assigned to do his litigation work, and we sat on our hands because litigation was anathema to him, and he not only kept his own word, but he was very careful to deal only with people (unlike Donald Trump) who could be relied upon to keep theirs. His company was and remains private, not because of lack of sophistication, but because he didn’t want his long-term plans to be driven by quarterly profit reports and the reactions thereto by short-sighted investment managers.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  65. If you’re curious about public companies and their doings, remember that EDGAR is just about your only friend. But once you’ve met, he can give you all kinds of fascinating information, if you’re willing to invest the time and effort to look (and you know what you’re looking for).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  66. it’s an interesting thought problem how to best quantify how pathetic Donald Trump is while we have an obscene pervert like Mitt Romney and a cowardly jack-off like John McCain what are still quite obviously to this day very much pining pining pining for the presidency

    i guess everything’s relative huh

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  67. Here, for instance, is what EDGAR has to say today about Equifax, Inc. “Statements of changes in beneficial ownership” are the disclosures regarding insider sales.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  68. IIRC, there is a “safe harbor” exemption from the insider trading laws/regulations if the insider is transacting (buying/selling/exercising & selling) pursuant to a regular plan of transactions, such as regular exercise of options and selling of the underlying shares. It appears that the Equifax execs’ transactions were not of that type.

    ColoComment (e457e2)

  69. For anyone brave enough to enter the SEC’s labyrinth of edgar filings to look at Equifax’s insider filings, Form 3 is an initial statement of an insider’s holdings of company securities; Form 4 is a statement filed any time there is a change in those holdings.

    There are people who watch these “insider” filings very closely, possible either to try to get a jump on future stock trends, or the plaintiff’s bar looking for violations & eager to bring derivative actions where found.

    ColoComment (e457e2)

  70. I’ll give you an example of how well Mr. Hines does in choosing with whom he does business. Hines Interests developed, manages, and retained a large ownership interest in Houston Galleria Mall, a huge mixed-use upscale retail complex that in turn spurred the 1980s-1990s boom on the west side of Houston just outside Loop 610. People come to Houston from all over the world for medical treatment, but they always go shopping at the Galleria.

    I had the Galleria’s docket for three years. During those three years, I had occasion, on behalf of Hines Interests, to file exactly one commercial eviction case. That’s not to say that everyone who rented space there prospered and stayed forever. But it is to say that Hines’ managers steered all but one of those tenants to an agreed-upon exit without either side needing the involvement of lawyers.

    If Trump had been running the place, I’m sure the comparable retail square footage would have generated litigation work to keep several lawyers busy on a full-time basis. That’s his history, as reflected in the court records.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  71. Beldar (fa637a) — 9/8/2017 @ 10:54 am

    You are ever gracious in your responses to me, Beldar – I just wanted to acknowledge that, and to assure you that I never thought you implied such a thing. You made such excellent efforts at persuasion, that I thought, to myself, this word “pathetically” is sure to overshadow his point in the mind of Trump’s supporters, rendering it inert to them. I should have said as much in previous comment.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  72. transunion and experian they’re both down today too, transunion in particular

    people are gonna have to reappraise the risk of the whole industry i guess

    but since experian suffered a pretty serious hack in 2015 i wonder if they’re thought to have already gone through a lessons learned phase

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  73. “Statements of changes in beneficial ownership” are the disclosures regarding insider sales.
    Beldar (fa637a) — 9/8/2017 @ 11:04 am

    Yes, the Form 4, filed with the SEC.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  74. @ urban (#67): White Sox did better than most teams have at home against this year’s Astros. We were hoping for better, given the Sox’ overall record and the ‘Stros amazing road-game record.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  75. @ felipe (#75): I only reciprocate your exquisite courtesy, my friend. And you’re right, I have a hard time describing Trump or Trumpkins in neutral language. I’ve mostly lost my desire to do so, however, since the number of repenting or even second-thinking Trumpkins appears to be so very small. Good on you for your patience.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  76. The problem is Beldar, you fail to recognize the difference between a *Trumpkin* and a person who is an American patriot with Trump as his President who has “gotten over” it. Trump’s President, get over it. Our problem is where to go from here. Unless you’re with antifa you should be working to set a course not constantly b!tch about Trump and Trumpkins.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  77. President Trump’s done much good and much good he’ll yet do

    unlike obama he doesn’t want to rape and degrade America – he wants to do stuff to make America better and stronger!

    some of it isn’t stuff i agree with like slopping the piggy incompetent military

    but other stuff i really like for example tax reform and energy production and working to address failmerica’s egregious trade imbalance and contending head-on with failmerica’s execrable CNN Jake Tapper fake news propaganda slut media (i love this more than fish tacos where they grill the fish instead of fry it and then top it with crunchy munchy cabbage blend and a lil bit of sauce)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  78. The problem is Beldar, you fail to recognize the difference between a *Trumpkin* and a person who is an American patriot with Trump as his President who has “gotten over” it. Trump’s President, get over it.

    No conservative “got over” the fact that Obama was president, or gave him a pass out of patriotism.

    Our problem is where to go from here.

    Same as Obama: replace the Democrat in the White House with a conservative Republican.

    Dave (445e97)

  79. this why people voted for bernie sanders. the people want to see banisters incarcerated not enriched at the public’s expense.

    hickman (6186a4)

  80. No conservative “got over” the fact that Obama was president, or gave him a pass out of patriotism.

    Liar! Every conservative got over Obama being President or there would have been twelve months of non-stop crazy on TV, in the media, in movies, in sports and now in movies like the crazy-azzed are doing now. Did the conservatives dress up as dinosaurs and vaginas or wear “pussy” hats? Did they set up plays assassinating Obama in the park daily? Need I go on?

    And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said nor suggested anybody give Trump “a pass” out of patriotism. Stop lying.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  81. Preach it, Rev!!!

    Colonel Haiku (6c3d91)

  82. Dave is such a conservative! He touts what he knows didn’t – or never will – happen.

    Colonel Haiku (6c3d91)

  83. Unless you’re with antifa you should be working to set a course not constantly b!tch about Trump and Trumpkins

    Sure sounds as if you are equating not criticizing Trump with “patriotism”.

    My problem with Trump is that he shows every sign of being incompetent as President: meaning unable to do the job. The only accomplishments come when other people are able to get the job done. And even–did you notice his implied threat to revive DACA if Congress doesn’t act within six months (which they probably won’t, since one side will insist on the wall and no amnesty, and the other will insist on amnesty and no wall).

    kishnevi (1a00bd)

  84. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 9/8/2017 @ 1:28 pm, I got over the fact Obama was Preezie about five minutes after it happened. Yes, it sucked. But how long am I supposed to cry about it?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  85. In my comment above at #61, I missed the last sentence in this paragraph from the linked Bloomberg story (emphasis mine):

    The credit-reporting service said earlier in a statement that it discovered the intrusion on July 29. Regulatory filings show that on Aug. 1, Chief Financial Officer John Gamble sold shares worth $946,374 and Joseph Loughran, president of U.S. information solutions, exercised options to dispose of stock worth $584,099. Rodolfo Ploder, president of workforce solutions, sold $250,458 of stock on Aug. 2. None of the filings lists the transactions as being part of 10b5-1 scheduled trading plans.

    This was a shorthand suggestion that these particular trades appear to fall outside the legal sales, which ColoComment correctly referred to as a safe harbor provision, under SEC Rule 10b5-1 scheduled trading plans. That a trade is made outside this safe harbor doesn’t mean that it’s illegal, any more than a ship leaving a safe harbor en route elsewhere is guaranteed to sink. But it does deprive these executives of their best and easiest defense if they’re in fact investigated for insider trading. Ultimately, the government (in an SEC enforcement action) or the private plaintiff (in a private-party or derivative lawsuit under the civil securities laws) still has to prove the insider possessed the information and intentionally traded on it in violation of SEC Rule 10(b)(5) promulgated under authority of section 10(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

    I have a great war story about a ’34 Act lawsuit against the State of Pennsylvania that I drafted one morning on a train from Manhattan to Philly, a lawsuit that was resolved less than 12 hours later, but this isn’t the right place or time. I’ve refrained from telling that story for more than three decades now because I’ve been waiting for someone who’d be highly embarrassed by the story to die; now he’s done that, but it’s still a couple or three years too soon to tell in public, just as a matter of taste. Maybe I should hang onto it for the first chapter of the book DRJ (but no publishers) keep telling me I ought to write.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  86. @ Hoagie: My beef is with Trump and the people who voted for him in the primaries, not those who gritted their teeth and voted for him in the general.

    I am not going to refrain from pointing out his many defects while he’s busy undercutting his own party’s congressional leadership in a way that will screw over what Trump claims to be his own (and the party’s) agenda, which is exactly what the moron did this week.

    Sorry about that. (Not sorry.) If you didn’t vote for him in the primary, I’m not criticizing you. When and if Trump does things that deserve praise, I’ll give it to him. But I’m damned sure not going to sit silent as he screws the pooch out of impatience and ego, which is what he did this week.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  87. TL/DR: I ain’t getting over Trump being stupid as long as he continues being stupid.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  88. (I didn’t take you seriously btw about that antifa stuff, Hoagie — I know you know me better than that, my friend.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  89. Did they set up plays assassinating Obama in the park daily?

    http://mspmag.com/arts-and-culture/the-morning-after/review_julius_caesar_the_guthr/

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  90. Who needs a publisher these days, Beldar? You should definitely write that book.

    DRJ (15874d)

  91. It wasn’t meant to be serious, Beldar. It was meant to be snarky. I know where your loyalties lie, I think. I was just trying to say there is something else between a *Trumpster* and a #neverTrumper. Some of us are actually trying to figure a future for America and bitching about Trump 24/7 doesn’t help. In fact it accomplishes nothing more than give the enemy hope.

    I guess I just don’t hate Trump as much as a lot of you guys do. But I am worried about America like a lot of you guys are.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  92. Unless you’re with antifa you should be working to set a course not constantly b!tch about Trump and Trumpkins

    Pointing out Trump’s mistakes is setting a course. We learn from mistakes and use that knowledge to decide what to do next.

    DRJ (15874d)

  93. Beldar (fa637a) — 9/8/2017 @ 3:19 pm

    Fret not, Beldar. The sentence in question is included in Patterico’s post.

    felipe (023cc9)

  94. My jihad is the Gamma cast and the Barbarian squat. What’s yours?

    I was just doing a little light workout with the Indian clubs.

    We all should do more of it. It’s the only thing that has kept my shoulders sane.

    https://sfiran.com/travel/iran-destinations/pahlevani-zurkhaneh-rituals-tehran

    I somehow may have gotten the reputation for hating Muslims. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  95. President Trump must succeed where he can and he must be forgiven for failing to succeed where he cannot.

    President Trump isn’t an ideology.

    The man’s a reprieve. A glorious and undeserved Indian summer for this sad pitiful little country.

    A reprieve, and the whisper of a hope: decline isn’t inevitable.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  96. If anything, constant complaining that Trump should be supported no matter what he does is the opposite of setting a course. There is no learning from successes or mistakes of we act like everything is grand, whether it is or it isn’t. We have free speech because we reach the best results from discussing the pros and cons of every decision.

    DRJ (15874d)

  97. Lois Lerner escapes justice… motherfather!!!

    Colonel Haiku (6c3d91)

  98. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=TuGPvNXu9Mc

    “Prof Guirado CMM – Ancient Indian Heavy Gada Swing – Macebell Tribute to Gada Training”

    I prefer to use a ten-pound sledgehammer from Northern Tool and Supply.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  99. DRJ (15874d) — 9/8/2017 @ 3:53 pm

    I second that, even if I am new to this subject: I would enjoy reading Belder’s book. I enjoyed Dr.Mike K’s book.

    felipe (023cc9)

  100. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 9/8/2017 @ 3:54 pm, I’m curious. Did I give the impression I hate Trump?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  101. DRJ, concur that free speech is the only way to settle differences without bloodshed.

    I am therefore extremely happy to have played a small role in defending western civilization.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  102. Republicans are supposed to be the party of limited government and personal responsibility. The GOP is supposed to be reluctant to enact new laws and spend more money, but that isn’t what Trump is doing. He wants everything done quickly, without debate, and no debt ceiling. That is the way Democrats do business, not Republicans.

    DRJ (15874d)

  103. poop-lick paul and sleazy mitch seem as yet incapable of taking personal responsibility for not having had a serviceable plan or strategy at hand for raising the debt ceiling

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  104. You I still respect Ted cruz, but so e of his backers like Glenn beck, whose zigzagging all over the place, like in a ice storm.

    narciso (d1f714)

  105. And stop putting words in my mouth. I never said nor suggested anybody give Trump “a pass” out of patriotism. Stop lying.

    I never said you did. Stop lying.

    Dave (445e97)

  106. I was just trying to say there is something else between a *Trumpster* and a #neverTrumper.

    Indeed there is. I made that point the other day.

    Some of us are actually trying to figure a future for America and bitching about Trump 24/7 doesn’t help. In fact it accomplishes nothing more than give the enemy hope.

    I disagree. If he’s doing something dumb, like working with Democrat Congressional leaders to thwart the interests of Republican leaders, then bitching about him loudly and publicly shows that there are people who disagree with his actions. That’s why we have things like blogs and comments and free speech.

    I guess I just don’t hate Trump as much as a lot of you guys do. But I am worried about America like a lot of you guys are.

    I believe that with all my heart about you, and respect it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  107. to thwart the interests of Republican leaders

    and what leaderly interests might these be

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  108. Your guess is as good as mine, a mean game of parcheesi

    narciso (d1f714)

  109. @ Hoagie (#95), who wrote:

    I was just trying to say there is something else between a *Trumpster* and a #neverTrumper.

    I absolutely agree with this, and that’s where I perceive you to be. Perhaps it seems to you and others that I’m reflexively and always critical of Trump, but I could dig back through a couple of weeks posts here, to the one in which our host asked about Trump’s best evidence that he’s a deal-maker, to which my answer was the fragile and mostly symbolic but still worthwhile work he accomplished in his Saudi Arabia trip.

    I can’t praise him over a friendly fire incident, though, which is the most charitable way to describe what he did to his own supposed party this week by joining hands and dancing in a circle with Chuck and Nancy. He shot toes off not only his own foot, but off every Republican congressman’s and senator’s feet too. A few more such “victories” and we’ll have a Democratic Congress again.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  110. It’s absolutely characteristic of Trump, for example, to say — as he has now — “Hey, maybe the Democrats are absolutely right and we need to get rid of the federal debt ceiling.”

    Translation: Let’s give Congress a blank check forever.

    That’s just incandescently stupid. No Republican, no conservative, and no foe of the Democratic Party could possibly ever say that. It’s the equivalent of a poker player not knowing that an ace is the highest card.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  111. I believe that with all my heart about you, and respect it.

    Thanks, and right back at ya Patterico.

    @114 Beldar, I get it. And I must agree my main worry is that we end up with Democrat Congress again. I don’t expect a bunch of phony praise of Trump just because he currently represents the Republican Party. I also realize up until eleven seconds before he announced his candidacy he was a life-long New York Democrat, Hillary supporter and supporter of any and all Democrats that could and did serve his purposes. That is the nature of business/politics in big Democrat controlled cities. You have no Idea what I had to go through both in Philly and Atlanta to build my businesses which were chicken sh!t compared to Trumps. They must have squeezed tens of millions out of him.

    What I don’t like hearing is a constant din of hostility about meaningless and unimportant things Trump does or says. It only serves to feed the sharks. Just as an example the whole brouhaha about Melania’s stiletto shoes. Or the nonsense about some mythical collusion of business types because they golf at Trump’s resorts. It’s all bull because if they had something he’d be up on impeachment charges and you all know it. This crap is just taking time away from what we need to be telling Trump and the Congress we want.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  112. Ditto rev, the dept ceiling will one day collapse on Us

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. I’m sorry, there is a lot more I need to say and explain but I’m having a very hard time breathing today and typing saps my strength I need for breathing purposes. Maybe we’ll get clarity another time. For now good night. I’ll be reading but I just can’t type any longer.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  114. Save your strength, rev, you summon great wisdom in a shirt time.

    narciso (d1f714)

  115. nk, if you’re still following this thread, I have a question for you: In Illinois, are lawyers allowed to practice law through a corporation or limited partnership or LLC that would absolve them of personal liability for their malpractice?

    We’re not in Texas. The rationale is that as a learned profession, we must, as a matter of public policy, be forced to stand in person, financially, behind the advice and representation we render to our clients. Although we can set up a business under any of those structures, we can’t write the bylaws or charter to disclaim that personal liability, and if we try, Texas law treats that as void.

    I approve of this impingement into free enterprise and bargaining because I think that’s a liberty we voluntarily relinquish in exchange for the privileges of the profession. But I don’t have a similar problem with Mr. Exxon disclaiming his liability.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  116. Yes, save your strength Hoagie. I’ll add my prayers to those who are already praying for your health.

    felipe (023cc9)

  117. Hoagie, I bet you’re tougher than the rock of Gibraltar. But I’ll pray for your health. I never have been comfortable talking about prayer. Christ said to go into your innermost room and pray in secret. All the best, Hoagie.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  118. I don’t always agree with Hoagie, but who cares? It’s an honor to have him here as a reader.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  119. Question on the debt ceiling:
    The ostensible purpose of the debt ceiling is to act as a control on government spending (no blank check for you!). However, absent a formal budget process during the last… 9? years, Congress has adopted a pattern of authorizing programs and policies that must be funded (e.g., Harvey aid), but does not concurrently appropriate actual funding for them. To the contrary, Congress says, “Let’s spend money on hurricane relief. That’s a plan,” and the government simply spends & spends from the Treasury until, periodically when the combination of money spent and money obligated but not yet spent threatens to exceed the total of the revenue collected and the debt “ceiling,” everyone goes OMG we need to raise the debt ceiling so we can borrow more money to pay our obligations!
    When someone asks, “Why must we always raise the debt ceiling,” the answer is that the country cannot default on its obligations. Everyone sighs, and says, “You’re right. We need to raise the debt ceiling.”
    So, what good is it? What practical (practical, NOT theoretical) purpose does it serve, and why would we miss it if it didn’t exist?

    ColoComment (e457e2)

  120. Me and Hoagie almost had a falling out over Trump, Pat. But I never doubted for a second he’s a good man.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  121. the debt ceiling is the entire reason our debt is so low

    dispensing with it would lead to an unsustainable debt load

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  122. the debt ceiling is the entire reason our debt is so low

    dispensing with it would lead to an unsustainable debt load
    happyfeet (28a91b) — 9/8/2017 @ 8:57 pm

    Well, scr*w it, I’ve got mine. Let my nieces and nephews fend for themselves.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  123. nonono

    me and ng talk about this all the time

    if she wants to have even the option of having her kids with her there in LA when they grow up

    they gotta buy some rental property now what can be lil A’s house when he’s older

    that’s the math

    it sucks but that’s how you have to think

    America just thinks in circles though (federal government)

    we tried using the debt limit for to keep debt down so we did sequester

    put poop-lick paul didn’t like it and cowardly war hero John McCain hated how he couldn’t do piggy-slop all up in our pitiful useless military

    so they got rid of it, and now we have more debt than even and a crappy military to boot

    yay debt ceiling!

    yay America!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  124. oops i did a wrong-type

    now we have more debt than *ever* is how i should have done it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  125. I’m sorry you aren’t doing well, Hoagie. I hope you get your transplant soon.

    DRJ (15874d)

  126. which one of these is the chart what shows us how effective that “debt ceiling” is in controlling failmerica’s debt?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  127. (trick question)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. I hope you’ll be well enough to argue with again soon, Hoagie. Take care.

    Dave (445e97)

  129. Thank you guys for your kind thoughts and prayers. Sometimes it’s almost as if we were sitting around a bar just shooting the sh!t. I just had a bad day yesterday. It was very humid and although I have a whole house dehumidifier system it still overwhelmed my ability for my beat up old lungs to function. Plus, I think I overdid the exercise.

    When I left here I *nebulized* myself (sounds kinky) took a few shots of Symbicort, turned my oxygen to 6LPM and fell asleep. I feel fine now. Well, as fine as I can.

    I have been on the transplant list for 13 months as of today (but who’s counting?). I’ve been called twice but the first the donor had pneumonia and the second there was only one lung available and I need bilateral. So we wait. I feel bad for June, my wife. She hasn’t really been able to do anything for a year watching over me. We can’t go farther than a one hour drive from University of Pennsylvania Hospital so vacations are out.

    Anyway, thanks again. It’s nice for an old fart to be missed. Even by folks that exist to me in the blogosphere. I have developed a great deal of respect for you guys. Even the ones I never agree with “usually” make some good points. At least when they’re not just trollin’ to be pains in the a$$.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  130. They’re okay when they not hopped up on the goofballs and grass, Rev.

    Happy Saturday!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  131. Hoagie,do you have central AC? If you do, keep it on at as low a temperature as you can stand to help keep the humidity low. My aunt had emphysema, and I learned that trick from her.

    The best to you.

    kishnevi (39af22)

  132. Fortunately kishnevi I have zoned air because I do take your advice and keep the air as cool as I can. The zones make it so June can go someplace where she isn’t freezing, hahaha. Seriously, though. You’re right, the cool air keeps the humidity down and breathing much better. Funny, a friend came over last week to show me his new car and he remarked “You could store meat in here” so you know where I’m at.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  133. I’m glad you are feeling better, Hoagie. But I hope you will soon feel this way. Happy Saturday, Hoagie, and Colonel, and everyone.

    felipe (023cc9)

  134. i hadn’t realized jennifer lawrence was screwing her directors now

    i’m not really a tmz person lately but i feel like i should’ve known that

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  135. her movie’s called mother! and her boss/boyfriend is old enough to be her daddy!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  136. meanwhile douchebag george clooney’s new movie what he directed starring chunky-ass white boy matt damon is getting ridiculed by the sjw smart set

    But the film still communicates that its A-plot — the one about white people doing horrible things to one another — deserves more weight than the one about white people doing horrible things to their black neighbors. It’s a shame, especially if you ponder the race-focused drama from the Coens and Clooney that might have been.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  137. Yes they did a similar thing, with Steve sodebergh, back in 2004, when Clooney bulked up

    narciso (d1f714)

  138. Jesus.. I just read Eric Bolling’s son died. Talk about a horrible one two punch. Bless his heart.
    Posted by: DeplorableJewells45 at September 09, 2017 02:20 PM

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  139. Its a little like what kirsten stewart did with the director of huntsman. Right before she waved her commercial career goodbye

    narciso (d1f714)

  140. American Ultra’s a real struggle for me

    i think i’ve knocked out about 15 minutes so far

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  141. Some films Rent with the investment in time.

    narciso (d1f714)

  142. The 59th Street Bridge Song, felipe, really? Actually I used to love Semen & Carbuncle. I was such a douche till I came back from Nam. Then I had grown too much.

    It’s hard to imagine that in my life I went from marching along with MLK for black rights in the segregated South with my sister and church group, to fighting in Vietnam for the freedom of little yellow people I didn’t even know, to building restaurants and employing blacks, Hispanics and especially handicapped people, raised a couple troubled black inner city kids and gave them a wonderful life they never would have had all the way to now when I’m a hated Christian, white, bigoted racist Nazi. What a trip it’s been. It’s wonderful to be appreciated.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  143. @ Hoagie, who wrote (#134):

    Anyway, thanks again. It’s nice for an old fart to be missed. Even by folks that exist to me in the blogosphere. I have developed a great deal of respect for you guys. Even the ones I never agree with “usually” make some good points. At least when they’re not just trollin’ to be pains in the a$$.

    There are people who comment here who make me think, “What the hell am I doing investing time to read (or skip through) some of this garbage, it’s just making me angry.”

    But then there are a handful of people who’ve earned the kind of respect you’re talking about in what I just quoted, brother. That’s the upside that makes it worth enduring the chaff and nonsense. Be well.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  144. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 9/9/2017 @ 12:57 pm

    Lol, yes, I thought you would appreciate it.

    felipe (023cc9)

  145. And no, I am not trying to vex you, Hoagie.

    felipe (023cc9)

  146. 149… your life story has the makings of an interesting book, Rev. Hope you have that transplant soon.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  147. Thank you Colonel. “My life story” is still being written I hope. I will say that when I was first on the transplant list I was full of hope and positive feelings. Now, after 13 months I’m turning a bit depressed and negative.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  148. So how long do you have to wait?

    I think maybe an hour. It couldbe less. When federal officials announce some new statistic, I think they’re suppose to wait an hour before commenting on it. Not the same thing, but that might indicate the time period. Probably it isn;’t amatter of settled law. But mutual funds and so on like that have to be given a chance to react.

    Sammy Finkelman (2e9ec5)


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