Patterico's Pontifications

8/30/2014

Why Is It So Hard To Take A Stand?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:53 pm

[guest post by Dana]

In an interesting op-ed, Yasmine Bahrani, a professor of journalism at American University in Dubai, boldly asks: Where are the Muslims protesting the Islamic State? And although there is disagreement to be found, Bahrani does provoke a consideration of the matter.

While Bahrani establishes that she supported recent protests against Israel, she is at a loss to explain the absence of Muslim protests condemning ISIS for their treatment of Yazidis, Christians – and even Muslims.

This is not the first time this question has occurred to me. For years, I have wondered about this absence of public outrage. When I asked about the murder of Iraqi civilians by Sunni and Shiite gangs, my fellow Muslims dodged my questions: “Why did the United States invade Iraq in the first place?” Yes, the U.S. invasion was a mistake. But why is it so hard to take a stand against the killing of women and children? I never got a straight answer.

While noting a few non-Western clerics have spoken out against ISIS, Bahrani points the finger back at Muslims everywhere:

Don’t Muslims have a responsibility to speak out more loudly than others? We need the world to see anti-Islamic State marchers taking to the streets with the passion that we saw at the Gaza rallies in London and Paris. Mainstream Muslims must express our rejection of extremism in clear terms, while doing whatever we can to stop young people from radicalizing.

The common refrain is: “That’s not Islam.” Of course it isn’t. Muslims know that, but we need to understand that others do not. And here’s the problem: To much of the world, the Islamic State, Nigeria’s Boko Haram and other such groups do represent the Muslim community. Today, say the word “Islam” and few think of the glories of our history and culture. Rather, they picture masked men with knives. And as long as our condemnations remain tepid, we give the impression that we accept the crimes of murderers whose savvy YouTube productions reach far and wide. Like it or not, the Islamic State is winning the public relations war.

Sadly, mainstream Muslims have no choice but to come to terms with the fact that groups of people are car-bombing, shooting, starving, kidnapping and beheading people in the name of Islam — not to mention blowing up churches and mosques. Where is the anger? Is it possible that the marches in support of Palestinians are well-attended because Muslims hate Israel more than we hate criminal gangs who have hijacked the narrative of our religion?

Of course it’s possible and perhaps even likely. Other than unadulterated fear, how else to explain the lack of thousands of outraged Muslims marching en masse through the streets of Europe and the U.S. expressing the same level of condemnation toward ISIS as they did with Israel? Surely what ISIS is doing can’t be considered less horrible than what protestors believed Israel to be doing. If so, how foolish, because if we’ve learned anything, it’s that ISIS has absolutely no qualms about which group of people they slaughter – including Muslims.

If this was only about hijacking a narrative, it would be one thing, but when that hijacking manifests itself in the mass beheadings, executions, murders and torture of men, women and children from various ethnic and religious groups, along with terminating the lives of any not swearing allegiance, it’s a far more grievous matter than just a PR calamity. Is the priority taking back a religion or condemning this new threat of barbaric inhumanity?

With the world’s considerable Muslim population, an enormous collective display of public outrage and condemnation of ISIS certainly could manifest itself in the streets – as witnessed with Israel.

In perusing hundreds of comments at her post, I did not see anyone who claimed to be a Muslim, actually answer Bahrani’s question.

(On a side note, Bahrani misses or ignores the salient point that it always has been, and likely always will be easy and without risk to condemn Israel from any place in the world.)

–Dana

102 Responses to “Why Is It So Hard To Take A Stand?”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  2. Dana, I grow so worried. I’m sure you saw this business, discussed by Mark Steyn.

    http://www.steynonline.com/6543/the-reformation-of-manners

    I do respect other cultures. I do not respect sex slavery for children, no matter the culture.

    But I keep coming back to the General Napier, in India:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_James_Napier

    This is the quote about the practice of sati, or burning alive widows with the bodies of their dead husbands.

    Napier forbid it. Just like today, some of the locals appeal to “cultural traditions.” Napier’s response:

    “Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.” </em

    >

    We lack the courage. Look at Napier then, and the UK now. That could be our future. I hope not.

    Simon Jester (bd20c7)

  3. Yasmine – Social media makes things look messier than they really are.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  4. the Religion of Peace® is a plague on the Earth. It doesn’t have to be, but until its fundamentalist practitioners forsake their objective of enslaving and dominating mankind, that’s the situation. They must be crushed.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  5. The Islamists are in it to win and dominate the world… they have proclaimed that. What don’t we understand?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  6. daleyrocks a gold star for you! Obviously you have been paying attention. The president is very proud of you for passing on his message about darned social media making the world look bad even though he claims the world is safer than it’s ever been.

    “The truth of the matter is that the world has always been messy. In part, we’re just noticing now because of social media and our capacity to see in intimate detail the hardships that people are going through.”.( Barack H. Obama speaking at Democrat fundraiser,at Aug 30, 2014)

    http://www.cnet.com/news/obama-social-media-makes-us-see-how-messy-the-world-is/

    elissa (bb0e28)

  7. If Obama, the DOJ and FBI would treat the Islamic terror threat as they do their perceived threat from Tea Partiers, America could rest easy. That’s how disconnected the federal government is from the people they allegedly serve.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  8. I do in fact think the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. Shoulda sent the Air Force. Not one square nice of non US ground that’s worth a Marine getting a scratch on his pinky.

    f1guyus (647d76)

  9. i’ve no trouble at all discerning between terrorists and regular muslims, even if one wants to suggest that they themselves do

    my feeling all along has been the obscenely perverted royal house of saud must fall fall fall before anything meaningful happens in terms of a reformation of Islam

    all this other stuff is peripheral

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  10. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 8/30/2014 @ 6:37 pm

    That is exactly right, Colonel!

    felipe (40f0f0)

  11. Shirley she can’t be serious:

    To be sure, many Muslims have spoken out against the Islamic State, and some clerics have condemned this gang of terrorists; Qatar-based Islamic scholar Yusuf Qaradawi, for instance, said the Islamic State violates sharia law and declared “null and void” the group’s declaration of a caliphate in Iraq and Syria. But their words merely echoed those of non-Muslims who have called for an end to the violence. Surely we can do better. Don’t Muslims have a responsibility to speak out more loudly than others? We need the world to see anti-Islamic State marchers taking to the streets with the passion that we saw at the Gaza rallies in London and Paris. Mainstream Muslims must express our rejection of extremism in clear terms, while doing whatever we can to stop young people from radicalizing.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  12. The easy answer is that Muslims prefer their heads in place and the fundamentalists have them cowed, now and forever.

    A more abstruse answer would assert there is no Truth in Islam.

    Where the Judaeo-Christian God says “My Words stand forever”, Allah is above his prior utterances, the Quran, and can rescind any oath he has made. The principle is called abrogation.

    Muslims value winning only, and winning means the other guy dies. Whether he’s lied, raped his mother, slaughtered children etc. to achieve this end is immaterial.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  13. There is an interesting article on American Thinker about this.

    Islam, Postmodernism, and Poltiical Correctness

    By Danusha V. Goska

    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/islam_postmodernism_and_poltiical_correctness.html#ixzz3BvlzKUiX
    Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

    Narciso, many Moslems, really? Perhaps a few. At least out of over a billion. It amounts to almost none. Frankly, if a Moslem is true to his faith, he’d be a terrorist by our standards. I believe there is something like 129 references to killing non Moslems in the Koran, there is not one requiring the killing of non Christians in the bible yet the Christians are the bad boys. NOTE: when I typed this Koran was automatically capitalized whereas bible was not. Odd, don’t ya think?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  14. muslims like to laugh a lot in my experience

    even though they hardly ever drink

    that’s one of the things that’s so neat about them

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  15. Where are the non-muslims protesting against IS? I would say there are more muslims acting against IS than non-muslims. Didn’t several shia miliatias mobilize?

    ghostofkeynes (f7a102)

  16. Hoagie (4dfb34) — 8/30/2014 @ 7:08 pm

    Good catch, Hoagie. Meanwhile, I guess good men are doing nothing, IYKWIMAITTYD.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  17. Sorry, she elicits an opinion from someone who calls for stoning of gays, and declared fatwas on coalition troops in Iraq, hence the sarcasm,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  18. ” Frankly, if a Moslem is true to his faith, he’d be a terrorist by our standards”

    There’s anothere thread where folks are telling people how to be or not be Christians. This one here is for Muslims.

    Why do you spell it “Moslem”?

    ghostofkeynes (f7a102)

  19. It’s a tricky wicket, because if one observes the first Surahs, 5 and 9, for instance, it’s kind of a
    demand, now Zawahiri, and now Quradawi thinks ISIL makes them look bad, that’s why they are popular,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  20. Surely what ISIS is doing can’t be considered less horrible than what protestors believed Israel to be doing.

    Israel and various occidental countries humiliate them. ISIS does not.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  21. 18. You say Muslim I say Moslem you say Koran I say Quran you say I’m a godless infidel I say die Kafir, we are all Coexisting.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  22. 20. Yeah, we use toilet paper and flush.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  23. “Israel and various occidental countries humiliate enrage them. ISIS does not”.

    I think this is what you meant to say.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  24. 21.18. You say Muslim I say Moslem you say Koran I say Quran you say I’m a godless infidel I say die Kafir, we are all Coexisting.

    This is why we love Gary.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  25. “There’s anothere thread where folks are telling people how to be or not be Christians. This one here is for Muslims.”

    ghostofkeynes – Obama already lectured them on how to be Muslims last week. Maybe you missed it. They’re not listening.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. I say mostly peaceful medieval death cult when I want to be politically correct.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  27. LOL, Daley. If only it weren’t true.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  28. 24. It is interesting on reviewing the descriptions of Armageddon how, like the current conflagrations, Israel is hardly focus of the action.

    “The bodies will be stacked like cordwood”.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  29. Today 20,000 police, or their analog, turned out in Islamabad to repel protesters at the PM’s quarters.

    I can’t wait ’til we see the nuclear ordnance in play.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  30. As tom Lehrer would say, “And we’ll all go together when we go”.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  31. Today US planes hit Amerli, where ISIS somedays back slaughtered Turkmen as heretics, men, women and children.

    Please recall Turkey, on the mere danger to these, their countrymen, sending their agents in, incognito, during the last go around.

    Turkey is all for gassing Alawites but this is going to strain Sunni ties.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  32. General Pershing
    now there’s a man with a Plan
    who don’t like bacon?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  33. that last part was apocryphal, but he did deal with the juramentados, Erdogan’s little experiment, has turned out much like ‘the Duke Bros’ re Valentine, ie badly,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  34. Satan has a plan
    for murderous Islamists
    they’ll be giving head

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  35. 34. To porcine virgins.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  36. america feels smaller and smaller the longer obama is president

    kinda like what happened to kodak

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  37. Who loves ya, baby…oh sorry, you said kodak.

    Gazzer (26a83c)

  38. The answer is actually simple, though she doesn’t want to face it: The reason there are so few Moslem condemnations of this is because they know that it is Islam. They like to claim that it isn’t, because they don’t like to face the truth about their religion. They are not violent bloodthirsty animals, they are civilised people and so are all the Moslems they associate with, but deep down they know that their Islam is watered down, tamed, reformed, not authentic, and that if Mohammed were to come back he would condemn them, and tell them to either join the jihad or fall to it. They’re ashamed of their civilisation, of their lack of bloodthirstiness, of their wish to live in peace with nonbelievers. And they know that if they get into a debate on the subject they will lose, because the ISIS people have the evidence behind them. So they remain quiet and try desperately to pretend it nothing to do with them.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  39. There’s anothere thread where folks are telling people how to be or not be Christians. This one here is for Muslims.

    I don’t want them to be good Moslems. On the contrary, I want them to go on being the bad, peaceful Moslems they are. But it is an objective fact that Mohammed was a highwayman, a bloodthirsty murderer, robber, and rapist, and therefore that the true Islam which he taught is that of the sword and the machine-gun and the nuclear bomb, and the sane, civilised Islam that most Moslems follow is inauthentic, a sort of “Reform Islam”.

    Why do you spell it “Moslem”?

    Because “Mussulman” and “Mohammedan” are obsolete. “Moslem” is the correct way it is spelt in English; I refuse to change it just becuase they decided on a whim to impose a strange new spelling on the world. I don’t believe people “own” their names, or have the right to dictate to others what to call them.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  40. Where?
    At the Mosque, praying to Allah.
    ISIS is the modern personification of the Propeht Muhammed (PBUH), everything it does, he did – what’s to protest.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  41. The fact that everybody is ignoring is that most Muslims at the very least tacitly support this barbarism. If I’m wrong show me at least a thousand Muslims marching against these supposed hijackers of “true Islam.”

    I’ll wait.

    Funeral Guy (afbf7b)

  42. How long have you been spelling it “Moslem”?

    “The fact that everybody is ignoring is that most Muslims at the very least tacitly support this barbarism”

    Againts muslims? I would say most of the people fighting against IS are Muslism.

    ghostofkeynes (f7a102)

  43. “That’s not Islam.”

    No. Over a thousand years of history show that it is.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  44. Maybe there is no stand to be taken. Maybe the so called moderate Muslims really do want the extremist Muslims to kill all of us non-Muslims.

    Maybe all of those moderate Muslims want to live under Sharia and make non-Muslims lesser citizens.

    Jack (a742cc)

  45. “Maybe there is no stand to be taken. Maybe the so called moderate Muslims really do want the extremist Muslims to kill all of us non-Muslims.”

    You do realize the ‘extremists’ are mostly killing Muslims, some not even that “moderate,” right?

    ghostofkeynes (dc23b6)

  46. yes, they regard the unsufficiently devout, as polytheists, as living in the state of dhaliyah, so why not more protests,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  47. Here we go again with the fallacious trope of Islamic “moderacy.” I agree that the total absence of a chorus of condemnation from the Islamic world with respect to ISIS’s barbarism (and, that of its terrorist ilk, such as Hamas) is telling. But, the professor is missing the obvious reason for that absence of condemnation. Most Muslims whom the Left alleges are “moderate” give tacit (and often overt) rhetorical, financial and other support to the Jihadists. What Ms. Bahrani fails to understand is that the so-called Muslim “moderates” are utterly powerless to rein in and to excommunicate the jihadists from the Islamic tent, precisely because the latter group are the ones who are merely following Islamic scripture and tenets faithfully and to the letter!

    Futhermore, she naively fails to comtemplate or even acknowledge the salient fact that Islam is an ideology of self-perceived supremacy. Muslims believe that there is no legitimate belief system outside of Islam. This gives the jihadists an incredibly misguided — but, nonetheless, a wonderfully focused and allegedly Divine — mandate to convert or murder all people who are not Muslims, whether they be non-believers or adherents of other faiths. Because, the “infidel” must be destroyed. It is this aspect of self-appointed ideological/theological supremacy, along with the Qu’ran’s unabashed vilification of non-Muslims, which lend Islam its unmistakably totalitarian and fascistic tenor. A fanatic who believes that he has been given an open-ended license from God to slaughter non-Muslims as he pleases is incredibly dangerous. Even the Nazis didn’t believe that they were carrying out Divine instruction.

    Guy Jones (df6cf0)

  48. Which is exactly why there is no reason for Moslems to live In the United States. It’s not just a religion it’s a political entity. We cannot have another political entity living within our own, they are incompatible. It makes as much sense for a Moslem to live in our republic as it makes for a conservative like myself to move to Ponyang. What could I possibly have in common with a bunch of Asian communists?

    They are here for one reason: to convert Americans. And they’ve found fertile ground for that in our prisons. I read somewhere recently that about 50% of black Americans who go to prison come out Moslem. They in turn, go back to their families and neighborhoods and spread the word.

    Yes, we have freedom of religion but Islam is not just a religion. Islam is a form of dictatorship which has nothing in common with us. And no place here. I know it’s hard for Americans to understand that an ideology that purports itself to be a religion needs to be thrown the hell out but it must. Mohammed was not a religious leader. Read about him. Read the Koran. Mohammed was a conqueror, murderer, rapist, pedophile and genocidal nut case. He used religion to control people and to give them the “divine” inspiration to slaughter anyone who disagreed in the name of Allah. These people don’t play well with others. In case you haven’t noticed.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  49. Guy Jones (df6cf0) — 8/31/2014 @ 6:48 am

    A fanatic who believes that he has been given an open-ended license from God to slaughter non-Muslims as he pleases is incredibly dangerous. Even the Nazis didn’t believe that they were carrying out Divine instruction.

    They only circulated propaganda abroad that was consistent with what was being circulated inside Germany.

    Not so Imperial Germany, which was happy to promote Communism in Russia, recovery of the lost territories of Arizona, New Mexico and California, in Mexico, various nationalism, and invented this brand of Islam.

    Any fatwas justifying this should be compared with the original German, written by Max von Oppenheim in 1914. Imperial Germany didn’t believe this either, but they circulated it. the Nazis, however, only promoted Nazi propaganda.

    Sammy Finkelman (335ac9)

  50. The Koran is utterly at odds with our Constitution. It is not possible to claim allegiance to Islam and the Constitution simultaneously. That we allow people who proclaim adherence to this barbaric cult to enter our country is beyond outrageous. We’re welcoming our own conquerors.

    creeper (0089bf)

  51. Happyfeet;

    Regarding the House of Saud, you may very well be right, but there is one hellacious good reason we don’t want to attack the Saudis if we can accomplish our aims another way;

    If we attack the Saudis we will win. And if we win, we will be stuck administering Mecca and Medina and the annual Hadj. Tat has to be the biggest recurring administrative nightmare on earth, and that’s without adding all the acid indigestion attendent on Mecca being in the hands of infidels.

    Let the Saudis deal with the Hadj; they deserve it, the swine.

    C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801)

  52. “Muslims hate Israel more than we hate criminal gangs who have hijacked the narrative of our religion?”
    Well, no. hate IS the narrative of the Muz. So, no hijacking; but a macabre celebration.

    jb (9074c5)

  53. Absolutely correct, creeper. But years of leftist politically correct brainwashing has rendered most Americans incapable of seeing and speaking the truth. Moslems have no business in the United States. They’re here to subvert, convert and undermine our way of life. They start with small things (they learn very well off the leftists) like not wanting to pick up people with dogs or alcohol in their cabs. Then move on to “washing stations” and demanding prayer times five times a day even during work. Then women in habibs on driver licenses. And I would really like to know who’s brilliant idea it was to let Moslems in the military. Would we have let Nazis in the army in ’42? Islam has declared war on us. Just because we (our idiot government) refuses to recognize that fact does not make it so. They have attacked us, bombed marathons, murdered our people, blown up our ships and buildings and beheaded American citizens. These are not the acts of a religion they are acts of war by an enemy. When will this country say Enough! and throw them out? When will we start bombing the living shit out of them like we did Germany and Japan?

    You know I’m not PC, I’m just an old warrior from Vietnam. But when I saw the enemy I knew what to do. Hint: I never took a prisoner.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  54. And if we win, we will be stuck administering Mecca and Medina and the annual Hadj.

    Not if we turn them to glass.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  55. Why do I keep going into moderation?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  56. Hoagie;

    What maies you think tuening Mecca intoma large glass crater would stop the Hadj? I mean the Camel-pesterers are so reasnable about everything else……

    C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801)

  57. So where’s the Hadj gonna go?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  58. Fundamentalist Islam should be resisted by force of arms when and where necessary and their bedfellows on the left should see the same level of respect they show those who don’t follow their ruinous philosophy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  59. Hoagie,

    Why would it go anywhere? They’d make pilgrimage to the crater, and softheads the world over would whine until we supported them there.

    Not that the softheads would STOP whining if we did.

    C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801)

  60. How long have you been spelling it “Moslem”?

    “The fact that everybody is ignoring is that most Muslims at the very least tacitly support this barbarism”

    Againts muslims? I would say most of the people fighting against IS are Muslism.

    ghostofkeynes (f7a102) — 8/31/2014 @ 4:49 am

    Typical leftist who thinks racial groups are monolithic. The only agreement among Moslem’s is their universal hatred toward Jews. I worked with a Shiite Moslem who believed that Sunni Moslems where not “real” Moslems and deserved death. This is an educated man who is degreed and well off, not some illiterate “back of the desert camel didler” that some think jihadists are, but educated and well off. There are a number of factions of Moslems whose only commonality is they call themselves Moslems and hate anyone who isn’t a Moslem.

    The word Islam is often translated as peace, you hear Islam on the news described as the “religion of peace”, but that is not very accurate. A better translation would be peace through conquest. It’s a sin for a Moslem to not live under Islam. Therefore, if Islam is the ruling government, then there is peace.

    Islam is a religion that was started by a mass-murdering, pedophile, rapist, thieving slave trader who had sex with his daughter-in-law. And Since all the the above statements are documented by the Koran and Hadith, a Moslem can’t deny those statements without blaspheming. If a non-Moslem denies that is a description of Mohamed, then they should go read the Koran and the Hadith, that information is not hidden. To say it is not true is propagating a lie and deceit.

    ISIS is only doing what the founder of Islam. Mohammed did, so why are people surprised? Has ISIS done anything that Mohammed didn’t do?

    Tanny O'Haley (f5a155)

  61. Why Is It So Hard (for Muslims) To Take A Stand?

    For some of the same reasons Germans didn’t take a stand against Adolph Hitler, or the Russians didn’t take a stand against Stalin, or Cambodians against Pol Pot, or Cubans against Fidel, or urban Blacks against the Crips or Bloods, or Guatemalans against MS-13, or battered wives against their husbands, or elementary school children against playground bullies.

    ropelight (8ac227)

  62. Islam is a religion that was started by a mass-murdering, pedophile, rapist, thieving slave trader who had sex with his daughter-in-law

    I don’t think the average person in the Western World is aware of that. I know I was totally ignorant of just how ruthless, violent and vile Mohammed was until not too many years ago. Certainly on the day after 9-11 when George W Bush said Islam was a “religion of peace.”

    I recall Patterico expressing awhile back — around the time I too was oblivious to the real history of Islam’s founder — a sort of easygoing attitude about Islam, perhaps based on such ignorance, and possibly somewhat influenced by a sense that Islam inculcated traditional social values.

    Mea culpa and pfft to me, since that describes a bit of my own foolishness at one time.

    Mark (14a4db)

  63. Retired cretin in the terminal stage of dementia on our topic:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/jimmy-carter-tells-islamic-conference-principles-of-allah-are-key-to-peace/

    Like if we hadn’t suffered Putin’s jilted wannabe understudy we’d consider Jimmy above zero on his score as POTUS.

    We’re just lucky Pooter is a freaky hetero.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  64. Muslims are quite capable of protest, and not just against Israel. They were quire capable of protesting bad government in Egypt and elsewhere.

    The problem here is FEAR. ISIS is feared, far more than tyrannic governments, by everyone – including journalists in America. Few protesters believe enough in protesting to face this. So ISIS atrocities go largely without protest. And silence equals tacit consent.

    Amphipolis (e01538)

  65. Look into “trust cultures”. John Ringo did something on this in “The Last Centurion”.

    Phillep Harding (0ae744)

  66. Well yes, but that raises the question, frankly too many of the scriptural authorities they rely on,
    cannot really challenge the logic of ISIS, I cite Quradawi, today as Bin Baz might been cited a generation ago, the latter was the mentor of Juhayman Utaibi, and yet issued the fatwa that justified US bases on Saudi soil

    narciso (ee1f88)

  67. How long have you been spelling it “Moslem”?

    Ever since I first saw the word in print.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  68. hey Jihadist scum
    you gonna pull those pistols
    or whistle “Dixie”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  69. 64.Muslims are quite capable of protest, and not just against Israel. They were quire capable of protesting bad government in Egypt and elsewhere.

    The problem here is FEAR.

    Well that explains it, Amphipolis. Moslems would be protesting all over the United States against other terrorist Moslems just like they did after 9/11 and the Boson bombing (sarc) if it weren’t for FEAR. Yea, that’s it here in America they live in FEAR of the ISIS Moslems.

    And they’d be at Piccadilly Circus protesting the London bombings, but for FEAR. They do however manage to drag their worthless asses into the streets of France….but that’s a riot not a protest.

    Are you out of your friggin’ mind?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  70. 68. I dunno, honor killings in Dearborn, workplace violence at Ft. Hood, SoCal killings for maybe insurance, etc., leave leave not a lot of room for courage from half the Muslim population.

    Tell me again, its modesty that has Muslim wimmens wearing their whole wardrobe in August?

    Do you live in a Muslim favela?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  71. 42. How long have you been spelling it “Moslem”?

    “The fact that everybody is ignoring is that most Muslims at the very least tacitly support this barbarism”

    Againts muslims? I would say most of the people fighting against IS are Muslism.

    ghostofkeynes (f7a102) — 8/31/2014 @ 4:49 am

    Except according to groups like Boko Haram, IS, etc., they aren’t Muslims. And they have significant support for taking that position. Boko Haram of course means “non-Islamic learning is forbidden.”

    There are exactly two Muslims who have won the Nobel Peace Prize for science. Neither did their prize winning work in the Muslim world because western science is un-Islamic. One was a Pakistani physicist, Mohammed Abdus Salam, who was a member of the Ahmadiyya sect. He had to leave the country members of his sect accept western science. For that reason among others the Pakistani parliament declared his sect un-Islamic, so he had to leave.

    Hypocrites and apostates are not Muslims. The Quran doesn’t have much to say on the subject. But the Sirah, Muhammed’s biography, and the hadiths, the traditions of the first Mustlims, have much to say about it. As do all the schools of Shariah. Aspostasy in Islam doesn’t consist merely of renouncing the religion entirely. It consists of rejecting even a single verse of the Quran because Muslims consider it to be the revealed word of Allah. It’s not merely divinely inspired like the Bible, which is both divine and human. Allah dictated the Quran word for word to Muhammad. You must accept every word of it, and it is full of scientific misinformation. Such as the sun sets in a mud puddle, and you can actually walk to where the sun sets and see it for yourself. Shooting stars are actually javelins that Allah throws at jinns (demons) who try to sneak into paradise. Both men and women produce semen, and if they have a child together then the child will look like whichever parent ejaculated first.

    If you don’t believe that, then you are an apostate. Also, Muhammed proclaimed that anyone who doesn’t fight the unbeliever in the name of Allah is a hypocrite (jihad really is the sixth pillar of Islam). Hypocrites and apostates are kufr, unbelievers and not Muslims. You will not find one single authoritative source that will say otherwise.

    Milhouse @38 is exactly right. “Moderate” Muslims don’t speak out because groups like IS and Boko Haram are practicing Islam. “Moderate” Muslims are simply not very good Muslims. Most of them don’t even know that, because Islam does not encourage its adherents to know much about their own religion. But these fundamentalist groups can point to centuries of authority that supports what they do.

    This is why AQ had no qualms about killing people who consider themselves Muslim on 9/11. Because Muslims who live and work and pay taxes in the West to be unbelievers. Because they are supporting the West’s war efforts by doing so, and the penalty for waging war against Allah and his messenger and spreading corruption in Muslim lands is that they be killed, crucified, mutilated, or exiled.

    The only way a Muslim can legitimately live in the West is on welfare, to support jihad, and to prevent other Muslims from becoming westernized. They consider welfare to be a form of the jizya; what the dhimmis owe the holy warriors so they don’t have to work but instead fight in the name of Allah.

    Steve57 (0634d5)

  72. Steve57, correct me if I’m wrong (I often am ) but weren’t the two Boston bomber brothers on welfare?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  73. “Except according to groups like Boko Haram, IS, etc., they aren’t Muslims.”

    So now I gotta ask whether you agree with Boko Haram and IS.

    ghostofkeynes (6b174d)

  74. Yes, and so were the parents.

    The parents did work, though, and so did the older brother’s wife. But he stayed home and refused to work.

    Steve57 (0634d5)

  75. But he stayed home and refused to work.

    Well, he was a warrior for allah why would he work? Now, all those moderate moslems who came out in support of America, Boston and the killed and maimed in the marathon by protesting moslem violence, were they on welfare I wonder?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  76. A) Any re-interpretation of Islam was officially and forever closed in what, the 9th century? Islam can never go through their version of the Christian Reformation. B)As written in the Koran and Hadiths, Islam is a violent, evangelical, and incredibly intolerant religion. C) Any Muslim who squawks too loudly about the above stands to be labeled an apostate, sentenced to death and D) subject to the duty of every “good” Muslim to execute that sentence.

    It will take some enormously courageous Muslims, the first many of whom will likely die for their efforts, to even begin to think of changing the above. Even if given the imprimatur of approval by the highest of clerics, a huge “if”, there will always remain a segment true to the Faith as the misogynist, pedophilic, murderous false prophet* Mohammed wrote it.

    *As for being a false prophet, Salman Rushdie did not come up with the title “Satanic Verses” out of the blue. Every Muslim knows to what that refers. Mohammed’s “visions”, always dam convenient in their timing, had a few that were too far off for even his followers. He begged forgiveness, claiming that in his weakness, Satan spoke to him and gave him these false visions, hence the term.

    NeoCon_1 (deb0c0)

  77. 72. “Except according to groups like Boko Haram, IS, etc., they aren’t Muslims.”

    So now I gotta ask whether you agree with Boko Haram and IS.
    ghostofkeynes (6b174d) — 8/31/2014 @ 1:57 pm

    I also agree with the Pakistani, Malaysian, Indonesian, Egyptian governments (I’m sure I’m missing a few) who define who is and who is not a Muslim in their legal codes. And Muslim clerics and scholars. And all four of the Sunni schools of Islamic law. And more importantly Muhammed himself.

    None of what I said is in serious dispute. You will run across some outliers such as the Quran-only reformist Muslims. But then they aren’t considered Muslims either because denying the validity of the Sahih Hadiths and relying on the Quran alone is in and of itself a form of apostasy.

    So of course I think they’re right. All the evidence is on their side.

    Steve57 (0634d5)

  78. 75. …*As for being a false prophet, Salman Rushdie did not come up with the title “Satanic Verses” out of the blue. Every Muslim knows to what that refers. Mohammed’s “visions”, always dam convenient in their timing, had a few that were too far off for even his followers. He begged forgiveness, claiming that in his weakness, Satan spoke to him and gave him these false visions, hence the term.

    NeoCon_1 (deb0c0) — 8/31/2014 @ 2:05 pm

    The Meccan pagans believed in three female gods; al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat. They were the daughters of Allah, who was the chief deity. Muhammad really couldn’t convert anyone to his new religion until he did it at sword point. Which wasn’t an option during his Meccan period. So in an effort to convert Meccans he agreed to allow those three deities to remain in Islam as intermediaries.

    That flew in the face of everything he had been preaching about there being no god but Allah. So he claimed Satan put those false words in his mouth.

    It is in the hadiths.

    Steve57 (0634d5)

  79. how else to explain the lack of thousands of outraged Muslims marching en masse through the streets of Europe and the U.S. expressing the same level of condemnation toward ISIS as they did with Israel?

    People only march when somebody organizes them.

    They march against Israel in an attempt to turn the western world against Israel.

    They don’t need to march to turn the world against ISIS – they have much better arguments, which can be made directly to the heads of western governments, or gotten into the media, so no Arab governments or institutions are arranging for demonstrations that.

    A march to convince Moslems to oppose that would have the same kind of effect as a politician saying “I am not a crook.” It raises the spectre of guilt.

    There’s also the fact many clerics supported by Arab governments and institutions have come half way toward supporting the likes of ISIS.

    Sammy Finkelman (335ac9)

  80. happyfeet (8ce051) — 8/30/2014 @ 6:54 pm

    my feeling all along has been the obscenely perverted royal house of saud must fall fall fall before anything meaningful happens in terms of a reformation of Islam

    all this other stuff is peripheral

    That is true.

    Of course, today the King of Saudi Arabia is warning us about ISIS.

    They”ll be here in two months, he says.

    Sure. [Not!]

    The Caliph Ibrahim does not want to make the same mistake as Osama bin Laden, I think.

    Hitler, also, avoided attacking U.S. ships before Pearl Harbor. He didn’t want to make the sme mistake Imperial Germany did.

    Sammy Finkelman (335ac9)

  81. 31. gary gulrud (46ca75) — 8/30/2014 @ 7:55 pm

    Today US planes hit Amerli, where ISIS somedays back slaughtered Turkmen as heretics, men, women and children.

    They were also dropping relief supplies. And Obama wouldn’t do it without involving the British, and the Australians and the French. (at least for food and water etc drops)

    I think were were only in danger, and they hadn’t yet killed any. They did execute a Lebanese soldier (one of 19 they captured in an incursion into Lebanon)

    Sammy Finkelman (335ac9)

  82. As I understand it (which is very poorly) one of the prime beliefs of Islam is In sha’Allah. Objecting to other Muslim’s plans would seem to be putting one’s own desires ahead of Allah’s.

    htom (412a17)

  83. 75. …Mohammed’s “visions”, always dam convenient in their timing…

    NeoCon_1 (deb0c0) — 8/31/2014 @ 2:05 pm

    Yes, his favorite wife Aisha noticed that, too. Allah was always quick to deliver a revelation that allowed Muhammed to do what he wanted to do. Such as how everyone else in Islam was restricted to four wives, but he had 11. And there was the time when he promised to stop raping his slave girl, Miriam the Coptic Christian (as if slaves can freely give their consent, especially to man who would go around killing their fathers, brothers, uncles, etc., in the process of enslaving them).

    He promised that after he sent one of his other wives, Hafsa on a fake errand just so he could have sex with his slave. Hafsa, figured out he had sent her on a wild goose chase and returned in time to catch him having sex with his slave in here own bed, and went ballistic. He promised never to touch the girl again.

    Conveniently Allah delivered a revelation telling him that it was lawful for Muslims to sleep with his slave girls, and released him from his vow. Allah also rebuked his wives and threatened that maybe his messenger should divorce all of them and marry a new set of wives.

    Aisha said to Muhammed:

    “Your God indeed rushes in coming to your aid!”

    Steve57 (0634d5)

  84. yes ‘god wills it’ that’s where the Spanish expression, ojala comes from, of course it’s left for the speaker to say what is God’s will.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  85. inchal·lah. foreign term \ˌinchhä-ˈlä\. Definition of INCHALLAH. : give Allah an inch, Allah has a propensity to take a kilometer

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  86. … And as long as our condemnations remain tepid, we give the impression that we accept the crimes of murderers …

    That is because THEY DO think it OK.

    Remember, we have been telling Muslims for years they are “victims.”

    And as we all know when Victims commit crimes and atrocities — it is OK.

    It is the white guys’ fault.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  87. 72. And the antiChrist is Christian because..he says he is?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  88. the problem is the sauds are on balance, more moderate than the tribesmen they rule over, the Ateyba,
    Ghamdi, and Quahtani in particular,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  89. “They consider welfare to be a form of the jizya; what the dhimmis owe the holy warriors so they don’t have to work but instead fight in the name of Allah.”

    Steve, I am learning from you. Now I see why almost all Muslim clerics in Britain are on the Dole. Probably all of them. If welfare was banned a lot of Muslims in the West would go home or starve.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  90. yes, Muslims are big on the Cloward-Piven strategy. Overwhelm the state… falls right in line with a culture that treats its women as beasts of burden.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. Obama doesn’t have a strategy for defeating ISIL because he doesn’t want one. ISIL is his creation, ISIL is the rebel group he and Hillary were arming with the weapons being collected in Benghazi and transshipped through the Turkish port of Iskenderun.

    ropelight (b27b81)

  92. #79 Sammy, USS Rueben James was sunk by U552 on 31 Oct. 1941. And Hitler took the initiative in declaring war on the U. S. Roosevelt would have had some difficulties in declaring war on Germany in the days following Pearl Harbor. I hope your confidence in the safety of the U. S. from ISIL terrorism is based on more than your knowledge of history.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  93. 92. Who knows what the Renegade really thinks. His Occidental career with Chandoo and Hamid seemed to be mooting a Sunni/Shia hudna.

    Jarrett, CIC puppeteer, is in Iran’s pocket, OTOH, Prom Queen owes the Sauds and fears them more than Amerikkka. The Sauds want to keep Qatar under some control and wanted the gas pipeline for that purpose.

    The Turks were the intermediary of weapons including US supplied missiles, Saudi purchased nerve gas, etc. But they half to be hoping ISIS causes more damage to the Kurds than Turkish ethnics.

    Muslim Hood and its offspring Hamas are plainly dead meat. antiChrist likely would prefer his headaches flew away but he prolly also wants to cut his losses and somehow turn ISIS into a positive.

    GLWT c@cks*cker.

    gary gulrud (384f70)

  94. bobathome (5ccbd8) — 9/1/2014 @ 10:32 am

    Sammy, USS Rueben James was sunk by U552 on 31 Oct. 1941. </i.

    I had the feeling taht was maybe not 100% correct.

    And Hitler took the initiative in declaring war on the U. S.

    Only because he thought the United States would beat him to it.

    Roosevelt would have had some difficulties in declaring war on Germany in the days following Pearl Harbor.

    That’s true. He started to prepare arguments.

    But Hitler didn’t know about this.

    I hope your confidence in the safety of the U. S. from ISIL terrorism is based on more than your knowledge of history

    I think they don’t want to do it yet.

    So far, a common ISIS propaganda video theme is recruits tearing up their passports. Of course that could mean there are exceptions.

    Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2)

  95. There is this fatwa in Britain against ISIS/ISIL?IS/Daesh which is gradually accumulating signatures.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184627#!

    Several senior British Muslim clerics have added their support to a fatwa (Muslim religious decree) against the Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS) terrorist group, ITV News reported on Sunday.

    The fatwa calls IS “an oppressive and tyrannical group” and forbids British Muslims from joining.

    Part of the fatwa, published in the Sunday Times, reads, “IS is a heretical, extremist organization and it is religiously prohibited to support or join it; furthermore, it is an obligation on British Muslims to actively oppose its poisonous ideology, especially when this is promoted within Britain.”

    The decree was written by Sheikh Dr Usama Hasan, a former imam in east London and now head theologian at the anti-extremist Quilliam Foundation, according to ITV News.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  96. Apparent;y it is this:

    http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/about/

    Better than what the State Department is doing.

    It does not appear to be taken seriously, has managed to be “discredited” by the extremists, and and it lost government funding.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/184584#!

    http://www.5pillarz.com/2013/10/09/quilliam-foundation-never-has-a-british-muslim-organisation-been-more-reviled/

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  97. “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die: but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” Churchill, The River War.

    Islam, as a force, raises brave and fearless warriors, and apathetic and sluggish people.

    Tennhauser (ee4be9)

  98. Now theer are some demonstrations (but they do seem limited to ISIS, and the governemnts of the UK and Germany are probably behind it also)

    #NotInMyName: Young British Muslims stand up to ISIS in online campaign

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/notinmyname-young-british-muslims-stand-4274392#ixzz3DmevjZhe
    Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

    German Muslims Protest Against Islamic State Group

    http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2gm2r7/german_muslim_community_announces_protest_against/

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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