Patterico's Pontifications


Mrs. Obama’s Weight Criticized

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:32 pm

[guest post by Dana]

A funny thing happened on Fox News this week: Go-to psychiatrist Dr. Keith Ablow, who makes the rounds on various news programs, is not backing down from his from his recent comments criticizing Mrs. Obama’s weight, as well as calling her a hypocrite. His critics have called his comments sexist and I’m sure if one looked around, there would be racist accusations, too.

It happened on an episode of Fox’s show Outnumbered where Ablow was the token male. The discussion centered on a Kentucky school district opting out of the federal school lunch program because students don’t like the healthy lunches being provided.

Lisa ‘Kennedy’ Montgomery: As parents, we don’t need the federal government applying — projecting — these standards upon us. And Michelle Obama is so, like, the duchess when she speaks.

Kimberly Guilfoyle: She’s kind of annoying that way.

Montgomery: She is.

Ablow: And how well could she be eating? She needs to drop a few.

[Everyone goes “OOOOOOO”]

Ablow: I’m telling you, let’s be honest —

Harris Faulkner: You did not say that —

Ablow: We’re taking nutrition advice from who? Who are we taking nutrition advice from?

Montgomery: [Mimicking a man’s voice?] “Oh yeah, Michelle Obama, she needs to lose the junk in the trunk.”

Ablow: Well no, let’s be honest, there’s no french fries ever, that’s all kale and carrots? I don’t buy it.

Harris Faulkner: Oh my goodness gracious.

Ablow: Just sayin’. Her husband – I want some nutrition advice from Barack.

Montgomery: I like her booty.

Sandra Smith: Hold on. Let’s put the first lady aside and her presentation – I have no comment about that.

Today Ablow responded to critics:

“I do dislike hypocrisy and I really do believe that people speaking about diet should be role models themselves, and I’m not sure if the first lady is that role model,” Ablow said in an interview.

He didn’t stop there:

“I’m not taking food advice from an American who dislikes America, who in many photographs during her tenure as first lady is obviously not fit, and who has a record of saying things that show that she’s two-faced,” Ablow said Wednesday. “This should be obvious; I don’t know why it isn’t.”

Oddly clueless, Ablow also stated that he believed “people should be less sensitive talking about weight.”

So, women and their weight: shut up, don’t ask, don’t comment. It keeps order in the universe and peace in a husband’s life. However, if a public figure like Mrs. Obama presumes to tell others how they should live, what they should eat, and sets herself up as an example of correct living, she naturally opens herself up to criticism. (One notes that she is also influencing how taxpayer money is being spent on school lunch programs.)

And speaking of eating healthy, being fit, and sexism, the the Department of Health and Human Services has awarded $747,891 for the development of a video game to teach “vegetable parenting practices” because moms are too dumb to figure out how to get their children to eat their vegetables.

A grant for “Kiddio: Food Fight – Training Vegetable Parenting Practices” was given to Archimage, Inc. of Houston to help fund the project from May of 2013 through the end of August 2014.

“The genre of games that we research and develop are called ‘Serious Video Games’”, Archimage President Richard Buday tells “It’s a game to teach to mothers of pre-school age kids how to get their children to eat vegetables.”

According to Buday, a major focus is to help fight childhood obesity. “One of the problems is that parents may want the kids to eat better – fruits and veggies – but lack the understanding of how to do that.”

“What we’re trying to do is get to parents – in a medium that they enjoy and look forward to receiving information through – but in a non-didactic way.”


66 Responses to “Mrs. Obama’s Weight Criticized”

  1. Snicker.

    nk (dbc370)

  2. Nk, I think that candy bars are not on the approved list.


    Simon Jester (27b5e4)

  3. Personally, I love living in a country where malnourished means being fat. I would also use bariatric medicine as a better example of doctors pathologizing an incidence of living in an affluent society.

    nk (dbc370)

  4. no treble

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  5. Deep-fried carrots, kale-on-a-stick dipped in Honey-BBQ sauce.

    Snacking on the M&Ms with the White House seal.

    I suspect she’s not running nearly as much as she used to, while the Empty Chair is still getting in his golfing. She should perhaps walk the course with him. Wait, does he walk?

    Teaching children to eat healthy meals is a good idea. Providing them with healthy meals that they refuse to eat is a waste of money and does not teach healthy eating!

    htom (412a17)

  6. So, when’s Ablow getting audited?

    Roger Bournival (8b388c)

  7. also she never wears a hairnet

    that’s so gross

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  8. First world problems are stupid. The reason our kids are fat is because they don’t have to toil in the fields every day. The reason we are fat is because we don’t have to toil in the fields all day.

    As nk implied, I would rather worry about my waist than worry about my food. If it were not for the left, no one would have to worry about food or our collective waists.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  9. well…. michelle 0bama is actually a
    hybrid subhuman caveman-sasquatch
    this explains why MO weighs about 800 lbs…
    has manly hands, and the natural cave-man sasquatch walk
    MO does everywhere…. and also why she has to have
    a full body shave twice a week in order to maintain
    the illusion that she is female.

    they really should use michelle obama in some of those
    ‘so easy even a caveman can do it commercials’

    YourMaster (c7e392)

  10. Barack, does this dress make my butt look too big?

    Michelle, it’s not the dress. Your arms look marvelously toned, though.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  11. Mooch is way too fat to give health and/or diet advice to anyone. Well, she could say: don´t eat what I eat or you will end up as fat as me.

    And, Mooch, it is not your dress that makes your butt look big. Your butt looks big because it is big!

    jorgen (f8892c)

  12. Nothing worse than a hypocritical yeti.

    mg (31009b)

  13. Why is their a federal school lunch program? Are their economies of scale in provisioning cafeterias? Does the task benefit from absolute central co-ordination and control? Must we be stuck forever with the detritus of every passing thought of mid-level aides in the Johnson Administration?

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  14. Normally I wouldn’t get into a First Lady’s rice crispies. But then, normally a First Lady would stay out of mine. So turnabout is fair play.

    Yes, she’s too fat to tell other people what to eat. But what’s even worse is, what’s too fat? Does the gub’mint get to say? I say this as someone who has been obese all his life, according to the gub’mint chart. The fact that at one point in my thirties when I was playing Rugby I had a 48 inch chest and a 32 inch waist (I know this because I tried to buy a suit, and the guys at Men’s Wearhouse measured me and laughed saying, “No effin’ way”) didn’t matter. I didn’t meet the height/weight standards. The PFT coordinators were chart driven.

    Every time it was a struggle. The fact that I would inevitably score an “Outstanding” on the physical fitness test (max out on the push-ups and sit-ups, pass the sit-and-reach, and then it doesn’t matter how fast you run as long as you pass) didn’t seem to play a role. According to the charts I weighed too much. You might think, as I did, that having a stack of “Outstanding” awards for my performance in the Physical Fitness Test would bear some weight.

    No. I just weighed too damn much.

    They at least had the flexibility to measure me so I could eke out a 20 year career. Still, who came up with the damn charts in the first place.

    If anyone is interested, I’ve finally gained enough weight to by suits off the rack.

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  15. Michelle Obama is not giving the right advice, which is to avoid carbohydrates, and perhaps there are afew other things that are important so it should not be surprising that she may not be very successful, but she probably thinks she is.

    The “healthy” school lunches apparently are very unappetizing.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  16. by = buy

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  17. Steve57 (5f6c2a) — 8/14/2014 @ 6:06 am

    But what’s even worse is, what’s too fat?

    Not what they told you for years. The body mass index charts need to be adjusted upwards. People who weigh too little, are more vulnerable to infections.


    Obesity has been associated with worse infectious disease outcomes….


    Obesity correlated with less severe biliary infections. BMI inversely correlated with pigment stones and biliary bacteria; multivariate analysis showed an independent correlation between lower BMI and illness severity. Most patients with severe biliary infections had a normal BMI, suggesting that obesity may be protective in biliary infections.

    There is no reason to suppose that infections there are something special.

    Grade 1 obesity overall was not associated with higher mortality, and overweight was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality

    They try to manipulate the statisatics to avoid the obvious conclusion that the tables need to be adjusted upwards. The sentence preceding the one I just quoted goes:

    Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality.

    Note here that “Overweight” is a different designation than “Obese.” Overweight is a body mass index of 25.0 to 29.9 and Obesity is 30.0 to 39.9. See,

    And what it is saying inthat abstract is that “overweight” has a higher all cause mortality than slight obesity. (not than “normal weight” because that’s actually even higher!)

    “Grade 1 obesity” is a BMI of 30 to 34.9

    And that’s the ideal body weight, averaged according to all causes of death. Obviously, a person’s medical condition, might call for a different body weight.
    Still, who came up with the damn charts in the first place.

    I think this happened sometimes in the 1950s, or at least they started paying attention to them.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  18. BMI is a silly concept that should be shot in the head till dead. It makes no allowance for how much muscle a person has as opposed to flab.

    Mark Johnson (9d93c4)

  19. Sorry, I meant to say:

    And what it is saying inthat abstract is that “overweight” has a LOWER all cause mortality than slight obesity. (not than “normal weight” because that’s actually even higher!)

    Now that is averaging out dfferent weights weighted according to how many people are at each level.

    Anyway the point is, it starts to get more bad than goodf ast about a BMI of 34 or 35 maybe.

    Here are some more refeernces:

    According to new research this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), researchers say that being overweight may lead to a longer life….

    “We published an article in 2005 that showed, among other things, that overweight was associated with lower mortality — and we got an awful lot of negative feedback from that,” says the current study’s lead author, Katherine Flegal, a senior research scientist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Since that study, however, dozens of others have reached the same conclusion — even if it was hard for researchers and the public to accept.

    Here’s another:

    Normal-Weight People With Type 2 Diabetes Have Higher Death Risk: Study

    In surprise finding, odds of dying twice as high if weight is normal at diagnosis

    The web site feels compelled to warn you that this article was published more than a year ago, so maybe it is no longer true. (that may be a standard warning)

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  20. It is not that weighing too much may not be bad for you – it’s that the charts are wrong!

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  21. Sammy, I plan on making bank on the fact they are wrong.

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  22. I think poor Mrs. Obama and her advisors thought long and hard about what “cause” she should take on and be associated with and to try to influence both during the administration and in the history books (like Lady Bird and Laura Bush and Nancy R. before her). Sooo–highlighting better, healthier food, and healthier thinner more active children, while using the power of school lunch programs prolly seemed almost like a no-brainer. I mean, who could possibly argue with helping kids to be more healthy and to develop lifelong good eating habits?? I mean, how could the Republicans possibly ruin this? I mean, how could healthy food be controversial?
    It’s too bad that like everything else in the clusterfark White House it was not well thought through beyond the concept and the press release and photo ops stages. Execution matters and practical real world applications matter and visuals matter when real people are being experimented upon. The Obamas never got this and never will.

    elissa (9a7536)

  23. For poor Mrs. Obama, with her White House chefs and four-star restaurants at taxpayer expense, eating too much of way too delicious foods might be a problem. For poor inner city kids whose school breakfast and lunch might be the only meals they have that day*, and who need every bit of protein, fat, and carbs they can get, eating enough is the problem. She is a clueless blankety-blank.

    *Don’t take my word for it; ask the Chief Judge of the Criminal Court of Cook County.

    nk (dbc370)

  24. Just as Michelle sent her precious 2 daughters to private schools in Chicago and DC — while decrying the use of school vouchers for the proletariat — and likes the finer things in life in general, she is typical of people who talk out of both sides of their mouth.

    Liberals love a hands-off approach to cultural matters overall, or a if-it-feels-good-do-it ethos, but when it comes to the religion of health and the environment, they absolutely adore Big Nanny, Big Brother sticking their big noses into our lives.

    The woman who has never been proud of being American, but who’s now living large in the White House, could have at least directed her energies to the power of the pulpit, instead of intrusive government, by highlighting to and educating the masses about the way the food industry saturates everything with sugar. She could have used a tactic similar to that of Nancy Reagan’s “Just Say No” approach. But people of the left have a habit of screwing up concepts and methods time and time again.

    Mark (5758a9)

  25. If you want your children to eat healthy meals, consistently put healthy food on the table and eat it yourself. Teach them from early age what foods to eat and how much to eat by your own clear and persistent example. Nothing else is nearly so persuasive. Monkey see, monkey do.

    ropelight (75c145)

  26. Really though. We’re not criticizing her whole package. She’s just a little heavy on the left.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  27. It all well and good for first ladies to have pet causes. Lady Bird didn’t like billboards. Nancy did not approve of illegal street drugs. Laura promoted literacy and reading. How well these pet causes of gone over if Lady Bird ran outdoor advertising company, Nancy shot-up street drugs, or Laura was illiterate? Yet for some reason Michelle can wear dresses the size of circus tents and purport to be some kind of expert on diet and exercise. Mrs. Obama’s diet and exercise program, what ever it may be, does not work. She should not be in habit giving advice to other people about diet and exercise.

    David Lentz (be9e6c)

  28. Ogabe’s sham spouse is playing the cards dealt her. A fat azz and bitterness is baked in.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  29. Rasict and sexist is no way to go through life, son.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  30. A funny thing happened on Fox News this week:


    carlitos (c24ed5)

  31. ♪ ♫ hate big government and I can not lie.
    You other brothers can’t deny….♩ ♬

    Dave (in MA) (037445)

  32. every since the selfie with the Danish princess……

    EPWJ (29d77c)

  33. ever since the selfie with the Danish princess – phone thrown into lake

    EPWJ (29d77c)

  34. 29. Enuf with the racist card orc. It does not substitute for a brain stem.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  35. A fat azz Childbearing hips?

    nk (dbc370)

  36. I wonder if the First Yeti’s offspring ever get tired of hearing their classmate’s jokes?

    (Yo mama’s so fat the National Weather Service names her farts. . . Oh No! A broccoli typhume! Yuck!)

    I denounce my jr. high self.

    PPs43 audit in 3…2…1.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  37. It is certainly not racist to observe cultural and phenome characteristics.

    Mooch was raised in race-hustler, womanizer, Jesse Jackson’s home. She is stuck in a marriage of convenience to a peacock gay prostitute.

    I would be hard to imagine a lower status in today’s Amerikkka.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  38. The First Lady deserves the same level of respect that she and her husband show those who disagree with their behavior, politics, policies and agenda.

    Less than none.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  39. Rasict and sexist is no way to go through life, son.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/14/2014 @ 9:03 am

    having issues with spelling is, as well.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  40. is WHAT?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  41. David Lentz (be9e6c) — 8/14/2014 @ 8:17 am

    Mrs. Obama’s diet and exercise program, what ever it may be, does not work. She should not be in habit giving advice to other people about diet and exercise.

    But, as Rush Limbaugh has pointed out, results don’t matter. Only intentions count.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  42. Spallink and grammar are a problem, too.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  43. 20. Sammy Finkelman (b0c537) — 8/14/2014 @ 6:38 am

    It is not that weighing too much may not be bad for you – it’s that the charts are wrong!

    21. Steve57 (5f6c2a) — 8/14/2014 @ 7:19 am

    Sammy, I plan on making bank on the fact they are wrong.

    But when will they correct them?

    I think they might still continue to use the same words, but say Level 1 obesity is generally the the best weight to have.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  44. is no way to go through life, carlititos…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. Dana–How is Ablow “oddly clueless” here, as you say? Seems to me he got it exactly right, in his initial comments and in his amplification of them, which (refreshingly) wasn’t a mea culpa. You’ve now launched takedowns of Coulter and Ablow, for silly reasons. Any conservatives you DO like? I don’t understand why you contribute to this blog; was so much better before your recent and unfortunate ubiquity.

    EleanorBC (5a2acb)

  46. Pacino weighs in…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  47. Rasict and sexist is no way to go through life, son.

    i don’t know why not… it got the Obama’s all the way to the White House.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  48. EleanorBC,

    If you read the post carefully, “oddly clueless” was specifically used in reference to Ablow’s statement that he thought “people should be less sensitive talking about weight.” I don’t think there are many people – particularly women – who will become less sensitive talking about weight. It would seem he would have a clue already.

    It’s peculiar you see this as a takedown of Ablow, because in the post I make no judgements of him. I quote him and his convo on the program. Instead, the point I did make was that I believe Mrs. Obama is fair game to criticism about her weight.

    EleanorBC, because I disagreed with a noted conservative like Coulter, it seems as if you see that as betraying conservatism. Do you believe we as conservatives must agree with *every* self-proclaimed conservative? Are we not able to have the room to critically consider them and their words as individuals and not just as someone on the same team? Does conservatism demand blind loyalty? Because that’s not the kind of conservative I am, nor want to be. We all know what comes from blind loyalty and I want no part of that. I would like to think that under the big tent we can disagree, we can argue, we can criticize and ultimately, we can challenge one another. And it’s okay if we don’t agree. It does not put us on opposing sides. It simply allows us to be individuals who think for ourselves as opposed to group think. And to me that is the liberating beauty of conservatism, especially when compared to the other side of the aisle where one must be in lockstep at all times.

    I don’t understand why you contribute to this blog; was so much better before your recent and unfortunate ubiquity.

    I was invited by Patterico to write here, so perhaps you should ask him. It is easy for you to skip over my posts. My name is at the top of posts, so just scroll down, or pop back in later when someone else has posted.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  49. Dana:

    Ablow and Coulter are standing and fighting the good fight. You’re bending down and tying their shoelaces together, then giggling. Is how I see it.

    But I’ll sign off now. Last word to you.


    EleanorBC (5a2acb)

  50. We need a Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office for the Doctrine of the Conservative Faith.

    Three things you don’t ask a lady:
    — How old are you?
    — How much do you weigh?
    — Is that your real hair-color?
    A guy who thinks he can have an “honest conversation” about any of those things is clueless.

    nk (dbc370)

  51. i just don’t like her at all I think she’s low rent

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  52. 52. Coulter I presume.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  53. Dana–don’t despair at criticism or feel you must defend yourself. The regulars here know who you are and are glad you’re guest posting. That said, I will share this observation: I think your style of blog posting is quite different from Patterico’s own, and in fact from many other bloggers who want to make a very specific point–to educate–to advocate a position– to drive policy–and then they pound that point home (sometimes with a vengeance.) For some readers your blogging style difference may take some getting used to.

    Your posts seem to me to be much more subtle. They are thought provoking. As you do in this post, you often lay out several news reports about something and spice it with people’s quotes related to those events, encompassing several worldviews or positions related to the topic. These quotes frequently appear to be in conflict with each other. But in doing this you then give your readers free rein to draw conclusions and to think through how we individually really feel about a particular topic, and why that might be. As you pointed out to EleanorBC, there are often disagreements among commenters here–some arguments are major and some shaded very narrowly.

    Bottom line. If you were trying to make a specific point on this post or “taking down someone”, I freely admit that I missed it completely. OTOH, if your intent was to engage a broad discussion on the related topics of the tender subject of weight in our society, hypocrisy in discussing weight, differences in how men and women may be sensitive toward or talk about body image, and/or over-reach by government into parental responsibilities for their kids’ health and food choices then you succeeded.

    elissa (9a7536)

  54. i’m actually a fan of coulter

    i don’t always agree but i find her charming and articulate and of a better class than a lot of the hired help what serves up the cable tv news fodder these days

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  55. Some people are genetically predisoposed towards carrying fat on their thighs and butts rather than on their arms and bellies.
    It is still fat…

    5kg fat on MO’s butt and thighs is the same as 5kg of fat on my belly and arms.
    The media wants us to see those things as different.
    And in simple math it is calories in calories out… obviously carlories in MO exceed calories out of MO. That weight on has to be coming from some sort of excess

    steveg (794291)

  56. elissa,

    Gee, thanks for your kind words. I don’t feel defensive, although I don’t like being misunderstood and misread, however. With that, though, I don’t take things like that too personally and I’m not very inclined to try to convince someone of what I am and am not. One effort and that’s about it. Plus, I figure if the boss is happy with things, then I am too. I’m old enough to understand not everyone likes me and I certainly can’t please all the people all the time. (With that, though, I will double check with the boss, just in case!)

    I’m not in the habit of taking down anyone or being particularly aggressive in pounding my point home or “educating” anyone. It’s not my style. I prefer to lay it out in measured tones and well reasoned points, and God willing, someone just might think about it further. However, if I have an honest disagreement with anyone, I am going to articulate it and not shy away. If that articulation results in a “take down”, then that’s simply a by-product.

    With this post, I didn’t set out to take down Ablow, because obviously I didn’t. There is always a broader point, always a bigger picture, always more issues at play: hypocrisy in discussing weight, differences in how men and women may be sensitive toward or talk about body image, over-reach by government into parental responsibilities for their kids’ health and food choices , as well as Mrs. Obama setting herself up as an example on how we should live, thus opening herself up to criticism. Yes to all.

    I guess I don’t believe in sacred cows (absolutely no pun intended). Whether conservative or liberal.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  57. Dana @49 – Well done reply to EleanorBC. She obviously does not get it and did not have the capacity to understand your response.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. 51. …– Is that your real hair-color?

    nk (dbc370) — 8/14/2014 @ 6:39 pm

    Sort of a subset of that is, “Do the curtains match the carpet?” Guys, YOU DO NOT WANT TO ASK THIS QUESTION! Forget I mentioned it.

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  59. it’s just so pitiful

    given the tremendous platform she was given

    we’re 6 years in and all she could accomplish was make school lunch suck even harder?

    the hoochie is a LOSER

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  60. You’re right Steve57, as a pick-up line that prolly is a no go.

    elissa (9a7536)

  61. As a general rule, you’re right, elissa.

    On the other hand I’ve been to a few dives where after everyone got liquored up enough it could have passed for polite conversation. And everyone was getting liquored up, so no problem.

    A couple of places in Alaska and Nevada spring to mind. The kind of place where you don’t have to worry about the law because it’s only July and the highway patrol drove through last March, so you’re good for another 10 months. And that whale of a retired police lieutenant finally found the remotest corner in the US where she was the hottest thing around. Because it wasn’t going to be Fort Lauderdale, where she retired from.

    I wouldn’t recommend anyone gather cues on how to interact socially from my experiences.

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  62. “You’re right Steve57, as a pick-up line that prolly is a no go.”

    elissa – Some places I’ve been in Wisconsin that is a hands down winner, even before last call.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. Dana, I had stayed out of this thread. Then I discovered someone was dissing you because of your post. You certainly don’t need my approval for anything, but I truly value and admire what you write and how you interact. That is true when I agree with you, and even more so when I do not.

    I saw this essay on the Internet today, and it reminded me of people like yourself, in some ways (though let me hasten to add that there is some salty language in the article; nevertheless its core is about being polite to others). And you are nothing if not polite.

    I appreciate what you bring to this group, and I am but one voice among many who think so.

    Simon Jester (dd1562)

  64. 63. …Some places I’ve been in Wisconsin that is a hands down winner, even before last call.
    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/14/2014 @ 9:58 pm

    I’ve never been to Wisconsin.

    I have been to bars in S.E. Asia that the producers of Full Metal Jacket must have rejected because they didn’t think the audience would believe it. Like that bar in Olangapo City, The Freaks Stagger Inn. Home of the world’s oldest prostitute. As far as I could tell; the only light in the place was a kerosene lantern at the end of the plank that served as the bar.

    Is Wisconsin like that?

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  65. 45. Subtle.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

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