Patterico's Pontifications

8/5/2014

King Obama Contemplates Taxation Without Representation

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 1:39 pm

More power-grabbing by our new dictator:

The Obama administration is weighing plans to circumvent Congress and act on its own to curtail tax benefits for United States companies that relocate overseas to lower their tax bills, seeking to stanch a recent wave of so-called corporate inversions, Treasury Secretary Jacob J. Lew said on Tuesday.

Treasury Department officials are rushing to assemble a broad array of options that would “change the economics of inversions,” Mr. Lew said. Options are still being developed although no final decision has been made about whether to go forward with administrative action to strip away tax incentives for the deals.

Just like the American people, Obama has no respect for the Constitution or for separation of powers, and he is going to do anything that he thinks will be popular, safe in the knowledge that nobody will do anything about it.

But there is a solution for this action that does not rely on feckless Republicans to grow a spine. If Obama does this, corporations should refuse to pay the tax, and challenge it in court. The lesson of the Hobby Lobby case is that a corporation can stand up to the lawless administration and say: “No more.”

This is one of Obama’s craziest ideas, and that’s saying something. Taxation without representation, I remind the reader, was thought to be a legitimate reason to overthrow the government in revolutionary times.

105 Responses to “King Obama Contemplates Taxation Without Representation”

  1. Sarah Palin, prescient?

    ThOR (130453)

  2. is it enough for “high crimes and misdemeanors”, iow impeachment?

    jb (56b57b)

  3. If the Corporations refuse to pay the tax, would they then lack standing to sue in court? I thought the tax had to be paid before it could be challenged.

    Perhaps because it is on face value a constitutional violation they could proceed without paying taxes.

    DejectedHead (936516)

  4. 1. Sarah Palin, prescient?
    ThOR (130453) — 8/5/2014 @ 1:45 pm

    No bad for a fundie backwoods snowbilly who didn’t even go to an ivy league school.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  5. sort of like a financial berlin wall

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  6. U.S. Constitution

    Section 7

    All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

    Actual (7d9d51)

  7. I wish our Semi-Retired President would stop being so pro-business.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  8. 3. If the Corporations refuse to pay the tax, would they then lack standing to sue in court? I thought the tax had to be paid before it could be challenged.

    Perhaps because it is on face value a constitutional violation they could proceed without paying taxes.

    DejectedHead (936516) — 8/5/2014 @ 1:53 pm

    They might have to pay for a while until the judge would have to rule that this is so blatantly unconstitutional they’d win an injunction against the IRS.

    But I doubt even El Presidente Barack Maduro Castro Generalissimo Grande de Los Estados Unidos Bananas del Norte Obama Jong-Un would be stupid enough try this. I has the stink of political theater. Nutso, loony political theater, though.

    Maybe it’s a “squeezer;” President “My policies have been business friendly” Obama is threatening to do this just to shake down businesses for campaign cash.

    Or he’s trying to whip up some sort of campaign issue by getting an overreaction out of the GOP so they’ll talk about impeachment. Good for stirring up the base and fundraising as well.

    Or he’s trying to whip another sort of campaign issue by getting a different overreaction out of the GOP so they’ll talk about stopping him. Then he an hae a “he GOP is just for he rich and big corporations” meme to go with all the others. Also good for stirring up the base and fundraising as well. Or, so he’s trying to convince himself.

    I think this is so ridiculous it may indicate all the top Dems are losing it. Like when Pelosi went off her nut the other day. It dawned on me; maybe they finally realized things are spinning out of control all around them, the wheels are coming off, and they are well and truly hosed in November.

    We just need to treat this like the joke it is. Narcissists hate it when no one takes them seriously, so laugh a him.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  9. “Taxation without representation, I remind the reader, was thought to be a legitimate reason to overthrow the government in revolutionary times.”

    ObamaCare is itself taxation without representation. ObamaCare originated in the Senate, and the United States Constitution says the Senate cannot originate tax bills.

    Yet the US Supreme Court ruled that ObamaCare is a tax.

    It’s long past time to overthrow this government, peaceably if possible, but failing that, by force of arms.

    someguy (84ecc5)

  10. “3. If the Corporations refuse to pay the tax, would they then lack standing to sue in court? I thought the tax had to be paid before it could be challenged.”

    You can challenge a tax which has been assessed against you without paying it. I have done that several times after what I believed were bogus findings from IRS corporate tax audits. Interest continues accruing during the nonpayment period should you lose. Merely not paying it in the first place might not create the necessary standing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  11. Because that’s where the money is.

    Amphipolis (e01538)

  12. Our repulsive prezzy is such a loser.
    If a conservative ever gets in the white house and changes a few polices, our economy will be on cortisone.

    mg (31009b)

  13. i love cortisone.

    mg (31009b)

  14. You’re a State Senator in Illinois and you want every automobile dealer to “contribute $5,000.00 to your re-election campaign”. How do you do it?
    A) Send out a solicitation to each dealer pointing out how business-friendly you have been and will continue to be.
    B) Have your staff issue a press release that you are studying Illinois’s automobile dealer law that forbids direct sales from the manufacturer to the consumer (the “anti-Tesla” law) with a view to repealing it.
    C) A & B.

    It’s a fund-raising gimmick to squeeze big buck contributions for Democrats from the multinationals.

    And he’s pulling the same crap with Israel, to squeeze the pro-Israel organizations, lobbies, and PACs. This is Chicago-style politics at its rawest.

    nk (dbc370)

  15. P.S. Which is too bad because I want multinationals taxed to tears.

    nk (dbc370)

  16. Greetings:

    I dunno. Betting on some conservative Titan of Industry to show up to pull our constitutional bacon out of Obama’s fire seems like a bit of a long shot to me. Like back in the days when the next legislative hurdle was going to be the one to put the kibosh on Obamacare.

    11B40 (844d04)

  17. It used to be that companies located themselves in the US, despite high corporate taxes, because it had such a great business climate. Now even if the tax rate was zero, they’d still leave.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  18. ObamaCare originated in the Senate

    The bill that passed said “HR” in front of it and that is ALL that matters.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  19. well, Ear Leader is a renowned Constitutional Scholar (TM), so, if he is contemplating it, it HAS to pass constitutional muster.

    after all, he’s a Constitutional Scholar (TM)… RIL.

    8-)

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  20. you should be thanking Him…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  21. he’s a stupid buttface

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  22. oh, he’s worse than that, feets. he has set the country back, set race relations back, insulted and angered our allies, courted and kow-towed to our enemies and his lack of leadership, executive skills and total disinterest in the country and people he was elected to serve have accelerated America’s race to the bottom and facilitated a perilous world.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  23. and I :fart: in his general direction…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  24. he’s a stupid buttface times infinity

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  25. Obama has no respect for the Constitution or for separation of power

    Obama: “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?”

    The US Congress: “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?”

    Mark (1c4a55)

  26. he’s a stupid buttface

    that’s an insult to stupid buttfaces evevrywhere…

    how DARE you compare me to that worthless bastage?

    8-)

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  27. i just get upset sometimes and I don’t think

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  28. Tonight as I was on my nightly walk with the Siberian Husky (a/k/a the “Dyerwolf”), I was seized by a sudden conviction that I then spent the next 45 minutes testing rhetorically, teasing it apart, wondering about its implications.

    I’m pretty sure Barack Obama will not be successfully impeached in the Senate.

    But suddenly I’m equally certain that he won’t relinquish office in a timely fashion — unless it’s under his terms, which will not be the Constitution’s.

    The Chicago Democratic Machine of which he’s a part, the history of which explains his entire presidency, doesn’t go quietly. Indeed:

    It doesn’t go.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  29. Ah, the “good news” about that (that Obama won’t go):

    It’s a moot point until January 2017.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  30. (Well, technically, not “moot” but “unripe.”)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  31. whaa?

    food stamp wants to golf, party with trash like beyonce, and above all get away from the angry neurotic no-longer-useful-to-him wannabe P.S. 25 lunch lady he married

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  32. i just get upset sometimes and I don’t think

    we need to talk about that issue over Manzano’s Tacos…

    they make a mean burrito y torta dos. just no cerveza.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  33. If this turns out to be true it probably means that Obama is going to do everything he can possibly think of to get the House to impeach him.

    Joe (33fd9a)

  34. we will this year for reals i promise

    see i never actually been there yet so for sure it’s bucket list

    btw have you been to Spitz yet?

    love all the food so far except the fried chick peas (w olives) are nothing special – they remind me of that mercifully short-lived fried spinach thing

    streetcar fries hell yes though

    the sangrias are special, but they’re kinda proud of them relative to the dinky little glasses they pour

    but it’s a great little place with great atmosphere and wolves and board games and such

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  35. Yeah, good luck with that you morons. If there is one entity that will not hesitate for a second in going to court to save a single penny, it would be a corporation. And when the Obama administration decides that its going to levy taxes based on imperial fiat with no constitutional basis whatsoever, those corporations don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of losing and they damn well ought to sue for every single penny of their legal expenses, too.

    Unreal

    deadrody (4e433e)

  36. Why are we still talking “impeachment”? From all the Dems’ hysterical shrieking about it, it seems that’s what they WANT. (They need something, ANYTHING, to get their constituents out to the polls in November — and Obama’s abysmal record isn’t going to enthuse the LIV’s.)

    So, let’s charge him with “treason” instead. After his fair trial, I’d be perfectly happy to let The Won select his preferred means of execution from the following options: firing squad; electric chair; hanging; guillotine; or “the needle”.

    Sic semper tyrannis.

    A_Nonny_Mouse (a65840)

  37. tar baby

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  38. black hole

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. Wrong thread

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  40. Beldar, I think that Obama will give up the Presidency as all other Presidents. Why would he give up the chance to be King of the World at the U.N.? Wait, I mean Secretary-General.

    Just joking. Why would he give up the chance to be the world’s elder statesman at the age of 56 with an adoring press hanging on his every word while being able to play golf, eat hamburgers, smoke and jet around the world to do whatever he wants? Without those meddling women, Valerie and Michelle? He will be Clinton on steroids.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  41. But we’re not talking about “impeachment.” To the contrary, we are doing everything we can to avoid using the “I” word, so as to avoid lending credibility to Liberal claims that we are fixated on it. Now hush!

    ThOR (130453)

  42. It’s a moot point until January 2017.

    I think the coup emergency measures to prevent a right-wing takeover will be earlier.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  43. The GOP is going to try to win 14 Senate seats: easy wins in MT, SD, WV, tossups AK, AR, CO, IA, LA, MI, NC, and the longer shots in MN, NH, OR, and VA.

    In a true blowout, this would give the GOP 59 seats. At that point the remaining Senate Dems might be a bit less clingy.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  44. i worry though Mr. M

    does the GOP have enough senile geezerwhores like Roberts and Cochran and Meghan’s coward daddy in the stable to pull this out?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  45. Heck, Mr. happy, why worry about the old geezers when the new bunch bravely runs away as Sir Robin.

    Love him or hate him, I can not imagine Ted Cruz doing the same.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  46. Ted Cruz doesn’t run away

    he charters a jet

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  47. Yep, happy. I do try to keep up.

    At least Cruz doesn’t pretend to be trying to save the planet.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  48. or tax dollars

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  49. i honestly thought he had better sense than that

    but as it is

    i take it as a sign he has his share of harvardtrash entitlement issues

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  50. I can’t argue with that, happy. It’s a good point.

    I guess we all have to shuffle along and let the Dems run the country until we finally find a pure conservative to stumble into the presidency.

    Salon’s Joan Walsh is having a field day with the Rand Paul video and the left loves it. I can see why.

    I also understand that Cruz is not everyone’s cup of tea. At some point, though, do we really have to shuffle along when we actually have a chance to take the Senate and Presidency?

    The left has already decided that conservatism is a lost cause. Why do we have to prove them correct?

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  51. it’s not about purity

    and you can go back and look and know that a pikachu is remarkably consistent in these matters

    it’s about not letting the election of a wholly un-experienced, emptily-marxist slickly-marketed anti-american whoreslut first-term senator set the bar for whom we, as Republicans, nominate in the future

    notwithstanding that we nominated Meghan’s coward daddy

    notwithstanding that we nominated weirdo willard

    we know – all of us – we are forewarned, so to speak, that yes yes yes Cruz is just a piddling p.o.s. first-term senator, and having gone to effing Harvard, he should know that America traditionally sets the president bar a wee bit higher than that

    but no

    odds are he’s a slut and a whore – that he’s but self-styled craftily-marketed harvard trash (in many ways not unlike those slutty hyper-steroidal facebook twins) who will but cheapen the whore presidency of the United States to the sub-hooker/beyonce levels we’ve come to know and love

    he can be a losing candidate for president

    or he could stay in the senate and serve a function

    it’s his choice not mine

    but

    full disclosure

    so far only Mr. Governor Walker could conceivably earn my vote come yonder morning in November

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  52. li’l captain beefheart
    for surreal America
    trout mask replica

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  53. Now I seem to remember a definition of insanity, oft attributed these days to Einstein..

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  54. Tina knew what from what when she told us, frankly

    we don’t need another hero, Mr. Colonel

    we don’t need a gloriously-pure and putatively gloriously ethnic canadian-texan republifart to ride in on his palin-blessed steed and lead us to fetus-loving gay-hating three-legged-stool republican nirvana

    Mr. Governor Walker will more than suffice thanks.

    you can tell Mr. Governor Walker from the whoreslut first-termer senators like Paul and Cruz, as well as from Meghan’s coward daddy and weirdo willard, cause of how he’s actually successfully governed something… that didn’t result in a prototype for obamacare

    Mr. Governor Walker

    all else are castles built in the air

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  55. Writing a poem
    In seventeen syllables
    Is not so easy

    But who am I to say?

    nk (dbc370)

  56. Of course, the real question is why Congress gave tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas in the first place. I know the proximate cause — corporations gave Congress members bribes. But what’s in it for America?

    nk (dbc370)

  57. i don’t get the part about the trout mask

    i love trout but mostly with sauce

    which is more to complement the naturally-delicious trout flavor not to mask it

    but i’m sure if you’re hungry enough your average sauceless trout is more than splendid

    pls advise

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  58. if i see wild-caught idaho rainbow trout on the menu i say yahoo buddy sign me up for some o dat tasty trout

    and don’t skimp on the sauce!

    does that make me a bad republican?

    does it?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  59. “trout mask” is like “the killer in me is the killer in you”

    i mean c’mon

    wtf does that even mean, punkin?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  60. “Of course, the real question is why Congress gave tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas in the first place.”

    nk – Do you mean incentives like keeping corporate taxes higher here than everywhere else in the world and taxing worldwide income, not just U.S. income?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. “tax it” is never really the answer

    they tried it early on with tea

    then they tried it with income

    then corporations

    and gas

    and tanning

    and merlot

    and then the pervy not-to-be-left-alone-with-young-children john roberts extended it to healthcares

    now there’s some ditzy democrat hooch from new york what wants to tax sugar

    is this who you are anymore, americans?

    really?

    it’s sad

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  62. I’m pretty sure Barack Obama will not be successfully impeached in the Senate.

    Question, Beldar: Wouldn’t just levelling charges in the House seriously damage his law license? It may depend on what state Preezy 404 deigns to take leave of us proles in, but IIRC Billy Jeff nearly got his revoked in Arkansas. I think a 2-year suspension was finally decided on.

    Bill H (f9e4cd)

  63. Govna Walker has turned into a establishment rump swab.
    I’ll ride with Cruz on a charter, rather than a turd in a toilet.

    mg (31009b)

  64. 57. Of course, the real question is why Congress gave tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas in the first place. I know the proximate cause — corporations gave Congress members bribes. But what’s in it for America?
    nk (dbc370) — 8/5/2014 @ 10:48 pm

    Congress doesn’t “give” tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas. Reread what was actually written, please.

    The Obama administration is weighing plans to circumvent Congress and act on its own to curtail tax benefits for United States companies that relocate overseas to lower their tax bills

    We have the highest corporate tax rate of any G20 member nation, and the second highest in the world, at 40%.

    Nobody is bribing anybody to pay that. What Obama is moaning about is a US company can just move across the border Canada and lower it to 26%.

    Also, the US has a residential system, which means no matter where my US company makes money, I owe uncle sugar 40%, less a credit for whatever foreign tax I paid. But that tax is deferred until I bring the money back to the US.

    If Canada has a territorial system my new Canadian firm pays 26% on what I do in Canada,and no a dime more on anything I make offshore.

    So if my subsidiary in Taiwan, where the rate is 17%, makes money I an bring it back to Canada. To bring it back to the US I have to pay another 23%.

    So really, nk, the USG is paying companies to move offshore. They sure are paying US companies to keep whatever money they make offshore, offshore.

    Obama, demonstrating the kind of headwork that turned Detroit into Detroit, is going o fix this by figuring out ways to confiscate more money from companies.

    In other words, all he stuff he’s been doing that have had record numbers of companies running for the doors the past 5+ years he’s going to do more of. To fix the problem.

    Genius.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  65. I read up on it. So they’re shell corporations, just a book on a lawyer’s shelf in Bermuda, while their headquarters, their stockholders, and the majority of their operations are in the United States. Why should they get away with it? Let them move their headquarters to Russia or China and have their board of directors subject to the death penalty for contaminated baby formula if they don’t like American rules.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. 65, 66. Guys like permabull Jim Pethokoukis don’t want corporations paying tax.

    So again, instead of tax reform, and IRS extermination, we get crony capitalism.

    The Feds are getting desperate for their revenue because they paid out $2 Trillion in entitlements over and above money laundered to the DNC.

    At some point, Luddites, you will have to start shooting or die.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  67. Nitpicking, but come on, lawyers:

    “63.I’m pretty sure Barack Obama will not be successfully impeached in the Senate.”

    The House impeaches, the Senate tries high crimes and misdemeanors.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  68. Government has become the enemy.

    The Republic is dead. Democracy a failure.

    We are all just biding our time, playing out a busted hand, until people with a backbone revolt.

    The poor will burn their homes, the DHS will crack down, police departments will be decimated and turn tail and then we’ll see what Amerikkka’s got.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  69. I know a few of you are aware but the current Market run up(evidently falling apart over the last week) has been fueled by corporations borrowing and re-purchasing their own stocks as insiders sell their options.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-05/three-chart-alarm-fed-has-set-corporate-bond-market-big-fall

    Query for all, please don’t raise your hands, just answer pell-mell, what happens to the value of existing corporate debt as the Market crashes and Treasury yields collapse?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  70. BTW, the zerohedge link is to a David Stockman(Reagan OMB Director) article.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  71. Is there any reason to believe the human nature (in particular left-leaning idiocy) of people in countries like Venezuela, France, Mexico, Spain, Greece or Argentina is necessarily worse or vastly different from what’s found in the US?

    nbcnews.com via drudgreport.com: As for the politicians measured in the NBC/WSJ poll, President Obama’s overall job rating stands at an all-time low of 40 percent, a one-point drop from June. And Obama’s favorable/unfavorable rating remains upside down at 40 percent positive, 47 percent negative.

    But if the president’s numbers are bad, Congress’ are even worse. Only 14 percent approve of the job Congress is doing – the seventh-straight NBC/WSJ poll dating back to 2011 when this rating has been below 15 percent.

    In addition, Americans hold congressional Republicans in lower regard (19 percent favorable, 54 percent unfavorable) than congressional Democrats (31 percent favorable, 46 percent unfavorable).

    AP, August 6: Gov. Chris Christie trails former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton among New Jersey voters surveyed in a poll about the 2016 presidential race. The Quinnipiac University poll released Wednesday shows Clinton leading the Republican governor 50 to 42 percent. Both are considering 2016 runs but haven’t committed.

    The poll also shows Clinton with strong support among women New Jersey voters surveyed. Men are divided. Clinton has a slight edge among independent voters.

    New Jersey voters give the Democrat a 60-38 percent favorability rating while they’re evenly split at 47 percent for Christie.

    Don’t cry for us, Argentina.

    Mark (1c4a55)

  72. 6. That’s the wrong section to cite.

    The important section to cite is Article 1, Section 1:

    Article 1 Section 1: All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. Now, of course if this sis done, it won’t be by pretending to enact a new law, but to be a reinterpretation of existing law.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  73. “Why should they get away with it?”

    nk – How is what they are doing any different than any foreign corporation with significant operations in the U.S., say a Honda or a Toyata. Why the hell would you treat them differently?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  74. That’s Japan’s problem. Honda and Toyota pay their 36% to the IRS on money they make in the United States, and otherwise follow American laws. Then they deal with their home government.

    Abbott and Mylan can be foreign corporations. I already said that. Don’t let the door hit them on their assets on the way out. Then they can argue the First Amendment in a Chinese court or, getting real, have a worker’s representative on the board of directors of their factory in Tennessee under German law (that’s VW). But if they’re American-owned companies, why should they be allowed the fiction that they’re foreign for purposes of taxation while eating American bread, and drinking American water, and enjoying the benefits of America’s laws for all other purposes?

    nk (dbc370)

  75. Re the First Amendment, can Honda and Toyota donate to political campaigns under Citizens United?

    nk (dbc370)

  76. In addition, Americans hold congressional Republicans in lower regard (19 percent favorable, 54 percent unfavorable) than congressional Democrats (31 percent favorable, 46 percent unfavorable).

    It has been true for at least a generation (longer, I think) that Republicans have a smaller core but perform better among non-aligned voters and weakly aligned voters. Not sure about now, but I do recall public opinion research ca 1985 which identified the Democratic core as comprising 18% of the electorate and the Republican core 9% of the electorate.

    There’s always been a certain amount of identity voting in national politics in this country. After the dissipation of the Southern Democratic bloc vote, identity voting has returned with a vengeance in an among certain ethnic and racial categories. I supposed you could add evengelicals, but the Democrats tend to be antagonistic to the signature concerns of evangelicals, which is not typically the case re the Republican Party and racial minorities.

    As we speak, for about 15% of the electorate, give or take, a Democratic affiliation is just part of the clothes you wear, so you get disparities like the one above.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  77. “That’s Japan’s problem. Honda and Toyota pay their 36% to the IRS on money they make in the United States, and otherwise follow American laws. Then they deal with their home government.”

    nk – You mean it’s their country of domicile’s problem and whatever taxes they pay in foreign jurisdictions is governed by tax treaties between their home country and the foreign country. There should be no difference. You just have a totalitarian hard on for penalizing American companies for attempting to lower their external costs.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. “But if they’re American-owned companies”

    nk – Define the term.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. Right now, the tax code’s definition is less than 20% foreign owned. Which is what I started out with. They’re already getting a ginormous break. Which allows Apple to only pay a consumption tax, or no tax at all, on money it chooses to bring in to the United States but no tax at all on money it keeps in foreign countries until it decides it wants it here.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. Rauner is in the news now. He keeps his foreign income in the Caymans. If he uses it for his vacation homes, his yacts, his private planes outside the United States he pays no U.S. or Illinois tax. If he needs some money to spend in America, he only pays taxes on what he uses. If it’s for his business, he gets it back as a capital or ordinary business expense deduction.

    nk (dbc370)

  81. “Right now, the tax code’s definition is less than 20% foreign owned.”

    nk – Right, and how the heck would you determine that given how many shares of public companies are held in street name, by mutual funds or other nominees these days?

    Unless somebody is voluntarily paying more than they owe in individual taxes to the government every year it seems like a moronic argument to expect corporations to act the same way.

    When two-faced billionaire Warren Buffet was flapping his gums about how he paid a lower tax rate than his secretary and that the rich should pay more taxes back in 2010, anybody who knew anything about his history knew it was total BS. He recently stated it was his duty as a corporate manager and an individual to pay the government as little in taxes as legally allowable. Why would anybody act differently?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. Why does that bother you, and why do you insist on more “solutions” that would further exacerbate the “problem”?

    JD (8fa684)

  83. nk, All I an say is there must be something in the water up there in Chicagoland. Because you and Obama are clearly thinking alike on this. That gub’mint an just treat companies (and people) like ATMs and they’ll just stick around and take it.

    What part of, “capital flows to where it an do the most good” don’t you guys get?

    http://www.citylab.com/work/2014/05/can-you-guess-which-us-states-people-most-want-flee/9019/

    Illinois is number one on that list, so clearly there’s something about it you don’t get.

    And no I don’t mean everybody; I’m from Kali so I know there are pockets of sanity. But we at least were too few and far between so I went to Texas. Which is the point; capital flows inside countries, too, from high tax, over regulated, confiscatory states to the free states.

    As an aside, Kali’s Lt governor once came out to ask us why we left. We told him and he refused to believe it. Which confirmed we made the right choice because those guys have no intention of changing their was. The further they drive Kali into the ground, their only idea for fixing things will be to do the same thing, except harder and faster.

    And of course, capital flows between countries. Except it’s not flowing this way, is it, nk, as your example @81 shows. Don’ complain about Rauner; just look a him and realize that’s how you want it. It must be, nk, that’s the result of the tax system you want. He could be creating jobs here instead of offshore with that money. But he’d have to be insane to bring it back against his own interests.

    Ah, but Obama has a solution. “Economic patriotism;” because Rauner and those like him are bad Americans. That’s all very Soviet, don’t you think? You might get your hands on Rauner’s money. Once. Bu he’ll never work to recreate it, just so you can take it again.

    The same kind of sane a system that would encourage Rauner to bring that money back would also attract foreign investment. “Economic patriotism” won’t.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  84. Tax the rich feed the poor tax the rich till they aint rich no more! Warren 2016

    tax (298064)

  85. I think of Warren, and I think of this.

    http://antonblog.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/cargo-cult_1.jpg

    http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608025300425703614&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

    http://disinfo-drop.s3.amazonaws.com/CargoCultPlane.jpg

    Cargo cults.

    During WWII their ancestors saw people arrive in boats and hack runways of the jungle. And then planes arrived and delivered all sorts of good things.

    But the planes and the good things went away, and they want them back. So they thought about it, and hit on a plan.

    Clearly if you hack runways of the jungle planes arrive and deliver all sorts of good things. So that’s what they did, along with building a few plane “decoys” to further attract others.

    They’ve been waiting ever since. You might think they’d have lost faith, but they firmly believe this is how things work.

    Warren, Obama, and the rest of the “you didn’t build that, we built the infrastructure that made your success possible” school of economics have the exact same concept of how things work and he same unshakeable faith in their convictions as these people.

    Welcome to your jobless recovery!

    And no matter how long it takes, they’re going to stick with the plan.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  86. baraaaaaaack obama
    your fiscal incontinence!
    just hold yer mud, dude!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  87. Perry is certifiably and objectively insane.

    JD (8fa684)

  88. Apples and oranges, Steve. Granting them the fiction that they’re foreign corporations is giving them not only a free ride, but an incentive not to invest in America but to have it only as a market.

    nk (dbc370)

  89. “I’m bound by the Constitution”
    - el Presidente Barack Obama… said with a straight face, about an hour ago

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  90. “Perry is certifiably and objectively insane.”

    I disagree. He had that huge red-face moment during the Republican debates leading up to the 2012 election, but he had the grace to withdraw when he saw the writing on the wall. He also has raised his IQ approximately 17 points by wearing the horn-rimmed glasses.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. When two-faced billionaire Warren Buffet was flapping his gums about how he paid a lower tax rate than his secretary and that the rich should pay more taxes back in 2010, anybody who knew anything about his history knew it was total BS. He recently stated it was his duty as a corporate manager and an individual to pay the government as little in taxes as legally allowable. Why would anybody act differently?

    And isn’t it rich that Buffet’s own Berkshire Hathaway reportedly owes the IRS hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes.

    Limousine liberals like Buffet really irk me because they’re so damn phony-baloney when it comes to their supposed egalitarian instincts. No better illustration of that in the pantheon of the Democrat Party and US liberalism is Franklin D Roosevelt, who scolded the wealthy for trying to avoid the tax man while he had the gall to tell the IRS that his own sizable income shouldn’t be taxed at the higher rate he and Congress had enacted into law.

    Moreover, I notice quite a few liberals bemoaning (hypocritically) that the affluent should be paying more in taxes while saying very little (if anything at all) that modest-income or middle-class Americans pay too much to Uncle Sam, etc.

    Mark (1c4a55)

  92. 89.Apples and oranges, Steve. Granting them the fiction that they’re foreign corporations is giving them not only a free ride, but an incentive not to invest in America but to have it only as a market.
    nk (dbc370) — 8/6/2014 @ 4:12 pm

    ???

    Who’s talking fiction?

    Let go of your fixation on shell companies.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  93. “an incentive not to invest in America but to have it only as a market”

    nk – High tax rates give corporations not to make further investments in America. Think about it.

    Take a look at the financial statements of most U.S. multinationals these days and see where the bulk of their assets, employees and profits derive from. Depending on the industry, it’s not really fair to call them American companies.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. The next step for Amerikkka isn’t to get corporations to pay more taxes but, like Greece, where no one pays taxes because they are confiscatory.

    Our tax code is an incentive for those with cash flow to pay tax lawyers and accounting firms well to avoid taxes.

    Taking away one ‘loophole’ simply exposes others. Meanwhile we have stories every week of TBT prosecute banks and corporations getting away with larceny. You want everyone to pay their fair share?

    GLWT, Pilgrim.

    W

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  95. Guido Oliveoilini and his three brothers, U.S. citizens living in Chicago, and their sister Maria, an Italian citizen living in Rome, have rental property on the Italian Riviera. They incorporate, as an Illinois corporation. Because of Maria’s 20%, it’s considered a foreign corporation under the tax code. What U.S. and Illinois taxes do the brothers pay if any, and when if ever?

    nk (dbc370)

  96. What U.S. and Illinois taxes do the brothers pay if any, and when if ever?

    I’m pretty sure the corporation would pay federal taxes on any earnings in the US, and state taxes on earnings in whatever states it did business. The brothers would pay federal and state taxes on any salaries or dividends they received.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  97. More to the point:

    http://theweek.com/article/index/265755/why-corporations-shouldnt-pay-any-taxes-mdash-zero-zilch-nada

    …And let’s remember who benefits when businesses reduce their tax burden — perfectly legally! — by moving overseas. Mitt Romney was bang on when he said “corporations are people.” Workers bear 70 percent of the corporate tax burden, according to the Congressional Budget Office. American Enterprise Institute economists Kevin Hassett and Aparna Mathur have found higher corporate taxes lead to lower wages, with a 1 percent increase in corporate tax rates associated with a 0.5 percent drop in wage rates. No wonder the OECD found corporate taxes to be “the most harmful for growth” of all taxes.

    Indeed, the corporate income tax is so harmful that we should just get rid of it. That would really help America’s struggling middle class. Economic modeling conducted by Boston University economist Laurence Kotlikoff finds “a very strong, worker-based case” for swinging the ax. Fully eliminating the corporate income tax, he writes, would cause “rapid and dramatic increases” in U.S. investment, output, and real wages. More investment means more jobs, higher productivity, and higher wages. Real wages of unskilled workers would rise 12 percent over the long term, and those of skilled workers would increase 13 percent. Now, Kotlikoff’s findings are probably at the high end of estimates. But they are tantalizing nonetheless.

    You can imagine, too, how multinational corporations currently based in low-tax countries might suddenly see the huge advantage of headquartering themselves in the no-tax U.S…

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  98. 57. nk (dbc370) — 8/5/2014 @ 10:48 pm

    Of course, the real question is why Congress gave tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas in the first place. I know the proximate cause — corporations gave Congress members bribes. But what’s in it for America?

    Congress didn’t give corporations any tax incentive to relocate their official headquarters overseas. What you have actually is a loophole.

    The U.S. is apparently the only country in the world that taxes foreign profits in the first place. In the U.S. they are taxed but only when repatriated. Periodically, Congress passes temporary lower tax rates to encourage the repatriation of profits and there is a temporary surge of tax revenues. This is the only place lobbying goes on.

    U.S. companies cannot relocate overseas. But they can be bought by a foreign company or merge with a foreign company and have the successor company be the foreign one.

    You need some kind of a bright line to distinguish a U.S. from a foreign corporation. There could be some restrictions on mergers. You could also maybe try taxing profits even if not repatriated.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  99. Hmm, I didn’t know Walgreen’s had gone public. It was still privately-owned when Mr. Walgreen was trying to commit his druggie daughter. If I cared, I’d look up whether he sold it in order to leave his granddaughter a simpler trust fund.

    From the linked story: Then he just happened to remind Wasson that “nearly 25% of Walgreen’s profit was from U.S-funded Medicare and Medicaid programs.”

    Apparently, Walgreen’s has no problem with taxes. As long as it’s making money off the taxpayers but is not one of them.

    nk (dbc370)

  100. Of course, the real question is why Congress gave tax incentives to corporations to relocate overseas in the first place. I know the proximate cause — corporations gave Congress members bribes.

    Apparently the bribes were not large enough to get Congress to lower Corporate tax rates. Oops, another conspiracy theory down the drain.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  101. “Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin, the new intimidator in chief, played a lead role in the Walgreen shakedown.”

    nk – Siding with the dumbest man in the Senate does not say good things about you. He could not qualify for a mail room job at a company like Walgreens.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  102. 101. Apparently, Walgreen’s has no problem with taxes. As long as it’s making money off the taxpayers but is not one of them.
    nk (dbc370) — 8/7/2014 @ 12:18 pm

    Concur. Medicaid patients should not be able to receive treatment from anybody, because if you accept Medicaid payments and treat them that makes you a parasite feeding at the public trough.

    But this?

    U.S-funded Medicare

    ‘Scuse me, people pay into that their whole lives. Sure, it’s a Ponzi scheme. But it’s a Ponzi scheme the gub’mint puts a gun to your head and makes you participate in.

    Have a heart, nk.

    Steve57 (ba12a7)

  103. “101. Apparently, Walgreen’s has no problem with taxes. As long as it’s making money off the taxpayers but is not one of them.
    nk (dbc370) — 8/7/2014 @ 12:18 pm”

    If Walgreens’ customer base mirrors the population, 47% don’t pay taxes. Silly argument.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


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