Patterico's Pontifications

10/30/2011

The obligatory Cain “inappropriate conduct” thread (Updated x8)

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 9:38 pm

[Posted by Karl]

Well, that’s a title I did not see coming:

Herman Cain’s campaign headquarters has released a response to a story, broken this evening on Politico, that in the 1990s two female employees of the National Restaurant Association “complained to colleagues and senior association officials about inappropriate behavior by Cain,” who at the time was head of the trade group.

Calling the story “thinly sourced allegations,” Cain spokesman J.D. Gordon said: “Since Washington establishment critics haven’t had much luck in attacking Mr. Cain’s ideas to fix a bad economy and create jobs, they are trying to attack him in any way they can.”  Gordon did not address any of the specific allegations in the report.  Asked for a more specific answer, the campaign did not provide details.

Gordon was similarly evasive calling into the Jerry Rivers show Sunday night.  As Guy Benson notes, these are anonymous, amorphous, years-old accusations.  On the other hand, Politico claims to have seen documentation describing the allegations and showing that the restaurant association formally resolved the matter.  Moreover, Camp Cain apparently declined to respond to Politico about the allegations for 10 days, which makes the initial, non-specific response here less excusable.

One question that immediately occurs is how Politico came upon this story.  The site’s Roger Simon suggested on Twitter it may have been original research (although he’s not in the byline for the story).  A lot of speculation will be this was Team Perry sticking a fork in Cain’s eyeball.  Team Romney might be a less likely suspect, given concern the story might ultimately benefit Perry — but maybe the Romney camp thinks Perry is too damaged to benefit.  In that scenario, Romney could win the Iowa caucus and wrap up the nomination quick.

Redstate’s Erick Erickson is pro-Perry (which may be why he downplays the sourcing question), but has a pretty balanced take on the immediate fallout:

First, a great many liberals who defended Bill Clinton will come forward to express outrage. Second, a few conservatives who went after Bill Clinton will defend Herman Cain. Third, many people will quietly brace for more to come out.

The Politico did not release names nor a lot of information. If there is a there there, more will trickle out and each trickle will weigh down the Cain campaign, taking it further and further off message.

We have never seen a candidate publicly vetted before like this. The closest comes with the rise of Mike Huckabee in 2008, when we witnessed what seemed like a never ending media attack. It was, in reality, the other campaigns running as quickly as possible to the media to pour out all the dirt they’d rapidly accumulated.

But Mike Huckabee rose only just before Iowa. The media and the campaigns were caught off guard. This time, people don’t want to be caught off guard. They want to make sure Herman Cain cannot become Mike Huckabee for 2012.

However the story plays out, it tends to underscore why Unelected Businessguy tends to have trouble in campaigns.  Such candidates have not received the same vetting as people who have been governors or Senators.  And they tend to be unequipped to go into war room mode when accusations like this appear.   Further, as I noted in the comments to the Perry attack post, I have never understood the “go easy” school of campaigning, because if vetting, attacks and such do not come out during the primaries, it is a fair bet they will come out during the general election, when it’s more difficult to address.

Update: Cain appeared on FNC. Here’s your key quote:

Yes. I have never sexually harassed anyone, let’s say that. Secondly, I’ve never sexually harassed anyone, and yes, I was falsely accused while I was at the National Restaurant Association, and I say falsely, because it turned out, after the investigation, to be baseless.

Note that Cain’s denial confirms the basics of the Politco story.  Also note the Politico story used the term “inappropriate conduct” instead of “sexual harassment.”  The lawyer in me cannot help but note that denial of the latter is not necessarily denial of the former, although the former is certainly less of a scandal than the latter.  How is it playing? FWIW, Larry Sabato was impressed.  Meanwhile, the WaPo asks, “You know who this benefits?”  The WaPo’s Aaron Blake,  given Cain’s apparent lack of knowledge about settlements, adds: “So Cain knew about the allegations but didn’t follow up to see what the outcome was?”

Update 2:  FWIW, Ace writes:

Here’s a big question: “Are we going to hear about other allegations in the future?”

He says, “Absolutely not.” But immediately says: “If more allegations come, people will [sic] simply make them up.”

I say this is a big question because I heard about this stuff a month ago, and I didn’t hear about two incidences. I heard about many more.

I did not have detailed information, certainly nothing publishable. But I heard there was a long and numerous history here.

Ace is not on the Cain Train; then again, this may be a reason he didn’t board.  In this vein, Allahpundit tweets: “Interesting phrasing in Politico’s lede last night: ‘At least’ two female employees…”

Update 3: Via Allahpundit, it may be that a less-than-100K settlement suggests innocence more than guilt, particularly if the NRA was insured (which we don’t know).  I do not specialize in this area, but it is true that insurers would be pretty sensitive to to cost of defending versus settling.

Update 4: Watch Politico’s Jonathan Martin squirm when asked about the specifics of the story.  The other takeway is an emphasis on the difference noted above between “sexual harassment” and “inappropriate conduct.”

Update 5 (A few more and I’ll be in Rick Ellerson territory):  Cain talks to Greta Van Susteren about one allegation, which seems like a non-scandal, but adds this about the settlement(s):

Cain said, “My general counsel said this started out where she and her lawyer were demanding a huge financial settlement…I don’t remember a number…But then he said because there was no basis for this, we ended up settling for what would have been a termination settlement.”  When van Susteren asked how much money was involved, Cain said.  “Maybe three months’ salary.  I don’t remember.  It might have been two months.  I do remember my general counsel saying we didn’t pay all of the money they demanded.”

As for reports that a second woman also complained about his behavior, Cain said, “I am totally unaware as to any formal charges coming from this other person.”  Cain said he was told the woman’s name by reporters at Politico. “I have no knowledge that she made a formal complaint,” Cain said.

The Examiner’s Philip A Klein asks: “How can Cain go from claiming he was unaware of settlement, to saying it involved 3 months salary, within a matter of hours?”  The answer is that this is amateur hour, emblematic of a candidate who has not taken his campaign very seriously throughout.

Update 6: ProPublica criticizies Politico.

Update 7: The NYT has marginal advancement of the story:

In separate interviews, two people who were affiliated with the restaurant group at the time and knew of the complaints said they knew of the second female employee, who had received a payment related to harassment accusations against Mr. Cain during his 1996-99 tenure as president. The two spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid being pulled into the matter publicly.

The two people who were affiliated with the group said the second woman similarly had complained about what she said had been Mr. Cain’s inappropriate conduct toward her. One of them said she had been taken aback by one interaction in particular while they were traveling, but this person declined to give details. He said he believed the allegation of harassment was not the only issue involved in the woman’s termination package.

As noted in the comments, RCP’s Sean Trende suggests the story is a GOP rival’s oppo dump, adding “The fact it is being dropped in Oct. suggests there is worse to come.”

Update 8: Reax to the Greta interview from NR’s Rich Lowry: “I think Cain seems quite sincere and believable, but he also makes you a little nervous about what he might remember next.”

–Karl

647 Responses to “The obligatory Cain “inappropriate conduct” thread (Updated x8)”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f8f210)

  2. which makes the initial non-denial here less excusable.

    What are they supposed to deny?

    I think you should rename this the obligatory epwj makes an arse of himself post.

    JD (318f81)

  3. A lively discussion of this just occurred in the prior thread.

    And they tend to be unequipped to go into war room mode when accusations like this appear.

    Exactly, Karl. Personally, I think Cain is being hit with a completely lame and unfair allegation, but should have had some kind of plan already in place for this contingency.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  4. Many people thought there was a “there there” with Slick Willie . . . and with Clarence Thomas

    Icy (46927e)

  5. “Many people thought there was a “there there” with Slick Willie”

    Icy – Many people knew there was a there there with Bent Dick Bill given his behavior in Arkansas.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  6. there’s not enough information to come to any conclusions meanwhile let’s reflect on this happy little datum our friend Mr. Instapundit shared with us the other day

    “…Now what if I told you that studies over the last ten years have shown that false rape accusations are likely in the ballpark of 25%, and could even be as high as 40%?”

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  7. New scandal-Herman Cain likes big butt and he cannot lie.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  8. JD,

    I had second thoughts about “non-denial” and have edited accordingly.

    That said, if you’re Camp Cain, and the Politico is seeking comment about a story of this nature for 10 days, you ought to have more of a position on it than to blame Politico, particularly if there’s nothing to it. I could even see holding back until the Politico ran the story, to get an idea what evidence the Politico thought it had… but then you ought to have more of a response ready.

    On the face of it, it looks like allegations were made and there were settlements. That doesn’t necessarily mean there was anything to the original claims, but five-figure settlements will give ammo to Cain’s detractors. If Cain has a better spin to put on it, it would have definitely helped him to give his side of it, or to deny the story if false, instead of blaming the messenger. They had 10 days’ warning.

    Karl (f8f210)

  9. I bet two cupcakes and a bag of those popcorners things I got on Jet Blue that this gets reported way way more than all the pervy sex crimes the dirty OWS monkeys are committing combined

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  10. All he had to say is – It absolutely didnt happen, never happened, this is the poitical season and anything goes –

    EPWJ’s comment from the other thread (I think the discussion should be in the right thread now).

    I agree, that would be better.

    You never know though. Maybe there’s some intricacy here. Maybe there is an ‘it’, but the ‘it’ is fairly lame, so if Cain issues a blanket denial, then he’s on the hook for the ‘cover up’ to something that was so lame they couldn’t come right out.

    All I know is that this accusation is incredibly weak at this point, so let the chips fall where they may. I suspect Cain is not handling this BS sleazy and unfair attack in the best way, but I’m not going sure I want the slickest politician to win, anyway.

    Granted, I prefer another candidate to Cain for other reasons.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  11. Well, just as long as he didn’t do something like get a blow job from an intern in the oval office while speaking on the phone to a foreign leader. That would really be a scandal— the likes of which we’ve never seen in politics.

    elissa (d8a277)

  12. I bet two cupcakes and a bag of those popcorners things I got on Jet Blue that this gets reported way way more than all the pervy sex crimes the dirty OWS monkeys are committing combined

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/30/2011 @ 9:58 pm

    I bet it’s reported more in the next 18 hours than Vera Baker has been in the past 4 years.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  13. so you’re not taking my bet?

    c’mon you guys there’s one born every minute and daddy wants a cupcake

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  14. Did this involve pubic hairs and coke cans?

    Been there, done that!

    Jim (24a875)

  15. I thought the country decided in 1992 that presidential candidates are allowed to rape women and that was ok.

    What’s the big deal over “inappropriate comments”?

    Jim (24a875)

  16. “Such candidates have not received the same vetting as people who have been governors or Senators.”

    You mean vetting of senators like obama?

    Jim (24a875)

  17. Nixon finding dirt on his opponent=bad

    Obama doing the same thing=Ok especially if it hurts his opponent.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  18. Dustin

    If you cant spin it with ten days notice…

    No wait – JD didnt approve this we all must realize that Karl needed JD’s permission to post this on his blog

    Lets all go to bed and wait for this campaign to end up with Ron Paul as our nominee

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  19. “…tends to underscore why Unelected Businessguy tends to have trouble in campaigns.”

    Not a convincing argument. Remember the story the NYT made up on Cain? If the one of the elected businessguys is nominated, the MFM will make stuff up if need be.

    Moreover, it’s as easy to vet an unelected businessguy as it is to vet anyone else.

    The one-sided vetting and fabrication process is upon us.

    RightKlik (b98edf)

  20. CORRECTION:

    …the story the NYT made up on McCain…

    RightKlik (b98edf)

  21. elissa

    Are you saying that its now acceptable for republicans to harass women because of Clinton? That women lost their rights to dignity?

    Did you just really say that sexual harassment is acceptable?

    Oh for goodness sake – HAPPYFEET QUIT WITH THE CUPCAKE RECIPES!

    I know people are shocked, stunned, but lets watch the fallout tomorrow

    All I know his that Bachmanns going to take a major bite out of his A$$ at the next debate

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  22. Moreover, it’s as easy to vet an unelected businessguy as it is to vet anyone else.

    But the point here is that this isn’t very easy, and it’s been ongoing for candidates like Perry or Mccain. Yeah, such guys still get the sleazy bs attacks, but because they have competed in elections several times, there’s at least some reason to be confident if there’s anything really bad out there, a competing candidate would have brought it up in a prior election.

    Karl’s vetting concern is not related to BS the NYT will just make up, but rather related to potential lasting scandals. There’s not much reason to think Cain has that in this case, but it’s a general issue with candidates who come out of the blue.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  23. Are you saying that its now acceptable for republicans to harass women because of Clinton? That women lost their rights to dignity?

    Elissa isn’t saying that. She’s snarking about how the standards for popular democrats are nonexistent.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  24. Eric- no I did not say that. And you know full well I did not say that. What’s got into you tonight?

    elissa (d8a277)

  25. Thank you, Dustin.

    elissa (d8a277)

  26. Elissa

    Well, just as long as he didn’t do something like get a blow job from an intern in the oval office while speaking on the phone to a foreign leader. That would really be a scandal— the likes of which we’ve never seen in politics

    We dont know exactly what Cain did, it did include an unwanted sexual advance

    i know you were snarking but this isnt a snark worthy event – it makes the whole party look bad and could cost us the election

    Its real serious that we let someone go for weeks unvetted that had SERIOUS allegations against him

    geezus what next …. The perfect storm for Republicans and e sink the ship in drydock before its launched

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  27. elissa – i know you are a very good person, I just wish that we all here wewre alittle more disgusted at Cains campaign for pretty much sinking the party -remember Foley?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  28. Oh holy… Cain was a senatorial candidate for Georgia back in the last election cycle. He lost the primary. But, he came damn close.

    He was attacked from all sides and vetted pretty thoroughly. Seems the bar has been lowered this election cycle to include nuisance suits and innuendo as this lame shit didn’t hit the fan the last go round.

    But yeah, only senators, governors and ‘really thoroughly vetted’ folks should apply in the future which, FAIL… anyone remember that dude from SC????

    Stephanie (ac9f18)

  29. Supposedly he acted and spoke in a way that made the complainant uncomfortable. OK, suppose he did; what of it? Did he give her reason to feel uncomfortable? Would a Reasonable Person have felt uncomfortable? This is just a repeat of the feminazi (and I use that word advisedly) standard, that what matters is not what you objectively did but the subjective feelings of your “victim”. If a woman claims to be uncomfortable with anything you did or said, then you’ve by definition harassed her, no mens rea or even objective offensiveness required.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  30. Repeat of my comment from the other thread:

    Towards the end the article quotes several people as saying that Cain treated women at work exactly as he treated men. I wonder whether that’s precisely what these alleged incidents were about – that he spoke to some woman in the same way he would have spoken had she been a man, and she was one of those women who only pretend to want to be treated equally with men, when what they really want is to eat their cake and have it too.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  31. We dont know exactly what Cain did, […] it makes the whole party look bad and could cost us the election

    You’re right, Eric. We don’t know exactly what Cain did. Isn’t that strange? If politico has been trying to put together something on him for ten days, shouldn’t they know what exactly it is Cain supposedly did?

    What if Cain assumed Politico would investigate the story, realize it was nothing, and so did not want to fuel the idea there’s a scandal?

    That’s not advanced political gamesmanship on their part, but we already know Cain’s camp is not advanced.

    I don’t think this is ‘the perfect storm’ to doom the GOP. Cain is probably not going to be the nominee. Primaries drag out. Having an organization matters tremendously. That’s why Newt and Cain are likely to underperform, and why many assume Perry is a major threat despite his current polling.

    Anyway, just an aside, once in a while you convey an understanding of the issue that is simply not compatible with most other folks. This often leads to an acrimonious back and forth, but I think the real issue here is that most folks looking at this issue, in good faith, are not ready to conclude much about Cain. No need to really get beyond that, IMO.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  32. If a woman claims to be uncomfortable with anything you did or said, then you’ve by definition harassed her, no mens rea or even objective offensiveness required.

    Comment by Milhouse — 10/30/2011 @ 10:36 pm

    Yeah, that’s always bugged the hell out of me. That’s exactly how I’ve always been taught sexual harassment is. ‘It’s not about whether you intended it, it’s about how the other person feels.’

    Bleagh.

    I just wish that we all here wewre alittle more disgusted at Cains campaign for pretty much sinking the party

    For what? They have said enough to show they dispute the merits of this being scandalous. They are not being super effective about it, but come on.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  33. BTW, Geraldo can kiss my ass.

    I am so tired of these utterly fake people.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  34. Dustin

    Bachmanns going to end him tomorrow on the morning news shows, if Santorum doesnt first –

    Unless this turns out to be a 100% falsehood then I cant see him showing up to another debate, I mean look what they did to perry he only wanted to stick girls with a needle to save their life…

    10 days thats disturbing from a seasoned operator CEO who was a seasoned talk show host renowned for his famou communication skills.

    Oh well, lets see

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  35. “We dont know exactly what Cain did, it did include an unwanted sexual advance”

    EPWJ – Allegedly.

    Politico claims 10 days. Who knows.

    Why is this alleged story like Foley? Please connect the dots.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  36. That’s exactly how I’ve always been taught sexual harassment is. ‘It’s not about whether you intended it, it’s about how the other person feels.’

    And the correct response, the only possible response is that I am not responsible for how other people feel. I am responsible for what I say and do, not for how other people feel about it. I refuse to be held responsible for anything that is not under my control. I refuse to go along with any proceeding that purports to hold me responsible in such a way. I will treat any such proceeding with the contempt it deserves, and will resist with appropriate force any attempt to compel me to take it seriously.

    Good thing I’m not a lawyer, eh?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  37. Milhouse

    The docimentation is about an ADVANCE so lets see

    I think the Cain campaign nows about the ND’s and by saying these are unverified they are hoping that the ND’s will protect them from being outed

    If thats their strategy

    B I G mistake

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  38. Good thing I’m not a lawyer, eh?

    heh

    Yeah, if you can’t stomach maddeningly frustrating systems that are plainly wrong, perhaps the bar is not for you.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  39. “We dont know exactly what Cain did, it did include an unwanted sexual advance”

    Again with the subjective standard. Why does it matter whether an advance was wanted? How the hell is a person supposed to be responsible for whether his or her advances are wanted? How is someone supposed to know whether an advance is wanted, except by making it?

    In any case, the Clinton precedent has established for all time, both as a matter of law and as feminist doctrine, that there is nothing wrong with making an advance to an employee, however crude, so long as it’s not repeated if rejected.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  40. perhaps the bar is not for you.

    Now if only I could figure out a way to make money from my writing…

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  41. Why is this alleged story like Foley?

    Because nothing illegal was ever even alleged?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  42. I hope Cain’s chief of staff goes on Good Morning America –and when he’s asked about the Politico claims I’d love to see him reach into his pocket, take out a cigaret, light it, take a deep drag and say, “So what was the deal with Larry St. Clair and Vera Baker, anyhow? Did you ever pin that down?

    elissa (d8a277)

  43. Lessee, John Edwards can knock a bitch up. Ted Kennedy and Dodd can go all “Night at the Roxbury” on a waitress. Billy Jeff can rape with impunity and abuse Castro’s finest export on an intern (amongst other things), but if that Cain so much as looks sideways at a woman…

    Gazzer (edeb1d)

  44. Milhouse

    I’m going to bed, reread what you typed – you basically said – I’m the dumbest person on the planet – in so many words

    Remember – I’m not responsible for how you respond to my words

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  45. Remember – I’m not responsible for how you respond to my words

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/30/2011 @ 11:01 pm

    Irony… it’s what’s for dinner.

    Stephanie (ac9f18)

  46. Karl, if the settlements were 5 figures as Fox News suggests, is this enough to defend such a suit and win? Are the settlements simply an association saving valuable cash? I’d expect such a law suit which had solid merit would settle for high 6 figures.

    The whole thing is not believable until Politico brings the women in and identifies them for their Anita Hill moment.

    {^_^}

    jbd (99eed4)

  47. Milhouse
    I’m going to bed, reread what you typed – you basically said – I’m the dumbest person on the planet – in so many words
    Remember – I’m not responsible for how you respond to my words

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/30/2011 @ 11:01 pm

    — Eric IS correct on this point. After all, it’s a big planet.

    Icy (46927e)

  48. BTW,Geraldo can kiss my ass.

    So can Rick Perry if the rumors about him orchestrating this attack are true[Which they are not.]

    DohBiden (d54602)

  49. 49. IMHO, if this rumor of a rumor were anything at all, there’d a been a suit in the 90’s.

    I watched the Thomas Judiciary hearings closely, and the personal character witnesses intensely.

    After rapt consideration, IMHO, there is absolutely no truth whatsoever that Thomas harassed Harris, in fact, despite her achievement and being not unattractive, Hill interested men, let alone Thomas, not in the slightest. The feeling is mutual, totally.

    Yet there isn’t a liberal in the country who would believe that. Kind of like a shibboleth.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  50. Gary,

    Dana Perino, a former spokeswoman for President George W. Bush, said on Fox News this morning that Cain “will have to stand on his own two feet for the rest of the week” and have a “better,” more substantive answer than what Gordon provided to Fox host Geraldo Rivera on Sunday night.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  51. Didn’t Herman Cain flirt (no pun-intended) with running for Pres in 2000? Could this have been a pre-emptive strike back then and resurrected now?

    And, I have to agree with those saying “What’s to deny?” Does he actually deny, “…physical gestures that were not overtly sexual but that made women who experienced or witnessed them uncomfortable”? It’s the United States of the Offended… anyone saying anything can be said to be offensive to SOMEONE!

    Not saying something didn’t happen and that his team couldn’t have handled it better but, sheesh, there’s no “there” there in this story.

    Jennifer (421d5a)

  52. I boggles the mind that people aren’t even interested in hearing the truth. It’s all liberal this, liberal that, Obama this, Obama that. Some are even making excuses on Cain’s behalf already.

    Seriously people. If it were really the Dems and Obama whose behind the whole thing, wouldn’t it make more sense to actually use it once Cain is nominated, preferably a month from the election?

    By releasing this story now, two months before the Iowa Caucus, who do you people think will gain from this? Among his competitors, whose demographic has Cain snagged? This is not rocket science people. All you need is some common sense…

    RocketMan (03db78)

  53. All Cain had to do was say what happened – its expensive in America to fight frivilous lawsuits – its a shame that we cannot get justice without a steep price in this country

    But he didnt say this

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  54. jennifer

    Washingtons a Tough town where innuendo and politically incorrect behavior is rampant.

    If politicians annd lobbyiests had to give out 5 figure settlements for every off color joke they tell, the GDP of the country would be triple the size it is today.

    The National Rest Association – given the high level of women employees in visible positions in the rest industry – is no novice to the issue of sexua harassment and probably had resources available to them far and above the average lobbying firm to correctly access whether the wrong doing rose to the level of structured payments

    Now if this is true, if politico made this up or the people made this up then – its their a$$

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  55. Did Anita Hill ever work for the Restaurant Association?

    Dennis D (e0b996)

  56. Oookay

    Ed at hotair jumps the shark – demanding that the women – who were victims – explain what happened to them to satisfy – Ed…

    why oh why do we do this…

    Apparently a powerful man, head of the company asked a low level employee to come to his hotel room –

    great….

    In one case it involved, I think, inviting a woman up to a hotel room of Cain’s on the road

    Dear Ed,

    According to Politico its quite possible that other people outed the women and they were contacted by the reporters – they face legal action and financial ruin if they violate their NDA’s and Cain is aware of this – we are watching a possible and totally horrible scenario where we might have a bully preying on young women maybe going on here and using his station and wealth to suppress the information and disgrace their credibility – (seems like this happened before)

    So Ed, I would walk back demands that these women ruin their lives again to satisfy your curiousity which seems to be with them and not the horribly disengenious way the Cain camp is handling this

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/31/cain-denies-sexual-harassment-claims/

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  57. Has epwj documented the unwanted advances he asserts? I didn’t think so because that is not what is being claimed. He is making an ass of himself. Again. Non sexual physical gestures have now been conflated with unwanted sexual advances. Typical douchebaggery from him, exemplified BT how he lied about what Elissa said. Seek help.

    JD (be35b9)

  58. It was 5 figure range, people. Which means 4 figures. Structured settlement?!

    JD (be35b9)

  59. the high tech lynching
    quick!… hide the pepperoni!
    nine nine and more nine

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  60. call JT Wentworth… 877-CASH-Now!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  61. JD

    Cain invited one of the women to come up to his hotel room. –

    did you call Fox News last night and have you contacted Dana Perrino for her demanding that Cain explain himself?

    Also, did you contact your local DA yet with all that evidence the FBI in Indy is waiting for you to bring in on Murkowski, they are waiting.

    Let me know how your interview turns out okay?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  62. Give me a break. You accused Palin of a specific federal crime, and Rubio of grand theft. I could not care less what Fox or Dana P said. I am responding directly to your nonsense.

    JD (be35b9)

  63. I still think that the allegations, to this point, are extremely thin and I think that’s behind what Ed at HotAir is pointing out.

    If it comes out that there’s more to it, that’s totally different and I’ll agree that there are more explanations that are owed to everyone – including his family, I’d guess.

    As sensational as it was, I didn’t immediately believe the John Edwards story either even though there were many more details. I give Cain the same courtesy here. Think of what could have constituted this “inappropriate behavior”… Herman says, “Yes, I have that report in my room. Come by later and I’ll give it to you.” That is “inviting” someone to his room, no?

    As Roger Simon says in his Pajamas piece, he doesn’t even compliment women in his office because sometime in the future he may be accused of having “made them uncomfortable”.

    And, as Tim Carney said on Twitter, “If you don’t understand why someone might settle a bogus suit, you haven’t known many businessmen.” Accusers may or may not be truthful, but if they’re loud, it makes business sense to settle a case to end it. I am assuming the payoff happened, but not assuming that the allegations were true. I’m sure there are also legal reasons why the NRA can’t discuss it. If the accusers have let the cat out of the bag, the burden is on them I think.

    Jennifer (421d5a)

  64. Breitbart to be indicted any moment now.

    JD (be35b9)

  65. JD

    Okay I’m done responding to you, you’re a good guy – I dont know why you are giving a politician a pass here on something

    Here is something to consider – These women didnt come forward – someone outed them thrusting them into this

    So everyone keep this in mind, they possibly had nothing to do with this

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  66. JD

    What federal crime did I accuse Palin of? As I remember she filed over 37 false complaints about relatives and poltical enemies in her career and she joined a false democrat complaint against the head of the Republican Party in Alaska that was settled with a finding of nothing and a small payment.

    Rubio admitted himself to the theft and repaid and apologized for taking the money

    so your complaint lies with Marco not with me

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  67. I am giving nobody a pass. I am pointing out where you are fabricating things. I am pointing out where you go way beyond the existing evidence. I am pointing out your historical patterns of doing so. And I am pointing out the incredible double standards employed by the left and the MFM.

    JD (be35b9)

  68. You accused Palin of being a ghost-payrollee for a no-show 6 figure job. A federal crime. Do people get exonerated for grand theft by agreeing to pay someone back? You are a clown.

    JD (be35b9)

  69. Politico is for those considering too sleazy and leftwing to work for the Washington Post, and their
    track record as I pointed out last night, is goose
    egg, also the place is crawling with viruses,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  70. JD

    did you call Fox News yet? Are they also subjected to my powers of persuasion? did you call Pat and demand that Karl be removed from this blog yet?

    Come on JD – okay I promised to leave you alone – sharp edged guys are sensitive and no one cares about you and me.

    Have a good day, enjoy it – this is not about us – this is about electing someone who will lead our kids

    Lets get back to that – I will concede all your points forever – lets just not pollute this thread – I have heard some of this threads on politics can get quite heated – but thats just a rumor..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  71. Why exactly would I call Patrick and demand Karl be removed?

    JD (be35b9)

  72. We are not polluting anything. You are.

    JD (be35b9)

  73. JD

    No show jobs are legal – unfortunately – is Alaska the only state to have them – no – are these positions a problem in America – I would say yes

    Rubio admitted that his taking the money was wrong – thats all you need – if you excuse polticians from taking money – I mean getting haircuts, downloading 2,000 dollars worth of music and movies on your Ipod is a legit political expense right?

    Look – I know you have better things to do this morning than lose again arguments that politicians get overpaid 3 hour a week committee positions and Party credit cards used for personal expense is okay

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  74. Our current VicePresident’s last campaign, overstocked with contributions from subprime’s murderer’s row, had a 250 K fine from the FEC,
    does anybody mention it. Obama disabled the verification software on his campaign’s computers
    to prevent the origination of many of the contributions to be determined,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  75. but I’m not going to violate my promise to not talk about Palin and I apologize for responding to your tortured sense of ethics and wish you would rethink what you are saying here

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  76. We should remember that a “five figure settlement” could be anything from ten thosusand to 99,999 dollars. If the settlement is at the low end then its a nuisance settlement and no big deal. As for the reports this is a violation of confidentiality which should result in fofeiture of the settlement.

    eaglewingz08 (2e38fc)

  77. Good Allah. Wrong is not illegal. You accused him of a felony. No show jobs are legal? Operation silver shovel would beg to differ. Step away from the bong.

    JD (be35b9)

  78. Apparently this made no difference to ths soccer scrum last fall:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/17/AR2010071702753.html

    narciso (0fc95f)

  79. Ruedrich was conducting private business from his offices in the commission, that is why then Atty
    General Renkes authorized the investigations, subsequently was found to be doing the same thing.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  80. narcisco

    Uhhh, thats not the facts, ruedrich was accused basically of opening his home Yahoo account on his govt Laptop, Miller, was accused and fired for using government computers for political purposes.

    Look, if he did something wrong they would have convicted him right? but remember – the complaint was filed by the Democrat Party not by others WHO HAVE CLAIMED they filed the complaint, which is not true

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  81. Every politician Eric does not like is guilty of something.

    Icy (46927e)

  82. “Miller, was accused and fired for using government computers for political purposes.”

    EPWJ – You can do better than that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  83. Karl,

    Fox news is reporting that a fake company funneled campaign donations to Cains campaign to get it started – all orchestrated by the smoking guy

    Now, even as Team Cain tries to handle the sexier story of harassment hush money, the more boring claim bubbles up that Block violated federal campaign finance laws by having a company he established in Wisconsin improperly finance Cain’s campaign launch. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports that the company seems to have existed almost solely for the provision of funds to the Cain campaign. What we don’t know is what matters most: Where did the money come from?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/31/cain-campaign-gets-smoked-on-harassment/

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  84. http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/state-firms-cash-to-herman-cain-may-breach-federal-campaign-tax-laws-132898423.html

    Cain campaign just confirmed that they new about the settlements

    Fox news just said that Cain has known about the allegations – for weeks and the settlements were in the six figure range (Karl Cameron may have mispoken but he emphasised SIX figures)

    Cain up in a few moments – Cameron confirmed that fox news knew about these stories for weeks

    Cain is saying that it WASNT sexual harassment now

    geez

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  85. “I mean weeks before she married Todd a basketball player confirmed she wanted sex. If its true its disturbing for the family for sure but Mrs Palin can turn this into a strength by admitting it and confronting it. If they get divorced – its because this is one of many incidents (those moments that happen in a marriage) that caused Todd to call it quits.

    Palin was an adult 100% responsible for her actions, and she has used her clean wholesome persona for personal profit well beyond anyone but Al Gore.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 9/19/2011 @ 8:36 am”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  86. Am SURE Patterico, Breitbart and Stranahan will be all over this like they were on Weiner. This is a LEADING Presidential candidate after all….. Bueller? Bueller?……

    tifosa (f35385)

  87. tifosa

    the facts are not in yet, Weiner lied and accused people of falsely accusing him – so far Cain’s about to address this in less than 24 hours a considerably immediate and shorter timeline that Anthony

    And you are on the thread on Patterico talking about the subject – addressing the topic at hand and not sweeping it under the rug right? you do realize that?

    I think I have to walk back my comment that Milhouse is the Dumbest person on earth…

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  88. tifosa, wrentit saying that the issue is not being discussed? here in a thread about the issue? within a DISCUSSION forum?

    Icy (46927e)

  89. “are you saying”
    [stupid iPhone!]

    Icy (46927e)

  90. Exactly Eric your goon Tifosa is dumb.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  91. Comments 84 & 85 seem to confirm that the Perry campaign IS behind the release of this story

    Icy (46927e)

  92. I’m sure that the MONTHS of investigations are under way. Have at it… :^)

    tifosa (f35385)

  93. More validation of comment #82:

    “Santorum – Virginia Resident?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Santorum

    The part I find ironic about Rick and Mitt is both have serious challenges to their residency and concerns the spending of tax dollars to educate Santorums children

    I know people are squeamish to bring children into play but Santorum should have thought about that before opening his sanctimonious mouth when he cheated PA taxpayers out of tens of thousands of dollars in “Cyber” tuition so his kids could be home schooled while renting his house ii PA

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 9/23/2011 @ 7:27 am”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. Months of investigation? So far there’s not enough to justify minutes of investigation! What’s even being alleged, tifosa?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  95. Tifosa

    dude – its been a day – Cains being given the short shrift on Fox right now – he’s denied everything – says everything is totally false, good for him and a pox on politico if they are lying may they never see the light of day

    be reminded that there are claims of a papertrail out there, therein lie the rub

    And the “months” of investigation had to do with the criminal acts of sock puppeting, physical threats and more all well documented by Weiners supporters

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  96. Comments 84 & 85 seem to confirm that the Perry campaign IS behind the release of this story

    Comment by Icy — 10/31/2011 @ 8:24 am

    LOL

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  97. To me, it’s simple: Politico claimed that there are two separate signed agreements with the women who made the complaints, payoffs in exchange for leaving and keeping their mouths shut. If Politico produces the documents, they have proved their story; if they don’t or can’t produce the documents, it means that they deliberately lied.

    The practical Dana (3e4784)

  98. Dana

    Cain just confirmed the story – he’s making the claim it wasnt sexual harassment – which is where the interpretation that settlements are written a certain way and we still have to believe someone.

    I agree Politico is on the hot seat here but ehh so is Cain, there are papers out there so the story goes

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  99. At this stage in Weiner-gate he was denying it too. I would LOVE to see THEHermanCain be THE Republican candidate! That said, Jon. Huntsman.

    tifosa (f35385)

  100. 51. Non-sexual, physical gestures:

    My personal favorite-Left hand placed over right bicep aiding the artificial inseminator in removing his/her raised, clenched fist from the sloppy, wet uterus of a large animal TBD by gesturer.

    Example of use: During or after query for explanation of another Romney flop.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  101. Dana – I don’t think that is the right metric. Is anyone disputing the existence of the allegations, or the settlements?

    JD (be35b9)

  102. Golly, they are much quicker here than they were on Obama’s anti-American, anti-white, anti-Semitic, anti-gay spiritual advisor pastor (that they tried to cover up), and the LA Times is STILL hiding that Obama and the PLO tape.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  103. Dana, JD, my metric is this:

    Until someone comes out and vouches that they personally witnessed Cain doing something specific that is actually outrageous, I’m going to assume the reason for the vagueness and lameness is that this is an inflated piece of BS.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  104. Ace confirmed the he heard these rumors a while ago

    I say this is a big question because I heard about this stuff a month ago, and I didn’t hear about two incidences. I heard about many more.

    I did not have detailed information, certainly nothing publishable. But I heard there was a long and numerous history here

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  105. So, whatever happened to Gloria Steinem’s One Free Grope Rule?

    In a March 22, 1998 Op/Ed piece in the New York Times, she effectively gave support to the notion that a man may: (1) uninvited, open-mouth kiss a woman; (2) uninvited, fondle a woman’s breast; and (3) uninvited, take a woman’s hand and place it on the man’s genitals; and as long as the man retreats once the woman says “no” that this does not constitute sexual harassment. This has become known in the popular culture as the “One Free Grope” Theory. The Op/Ed piece was written in an attempt to defend then President Clinton against allegations of sexual impropriety that had been made by White House volunteer Kathleen Willey.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  106. Well, Eric, there’s no doubt that there are accusations about Cain.

    Again, the problem is that no one is willing to come forward at this point and say ‘this is what he did, and I saw him do it’.

    There’s a reason Ace didn’t publicize the rumor, despite preferring Perry to Cain. And good for him.

    If there really are many people out there that Cain has done this to, why are the settlements reportedly so low? Why are the accusations so vague and weak? Why aren’t there ten people coming forward yet, to expose Cain?

    Unfortunately, there is a possibility that Cain is being treated like Clarence Thomas. I remember how people assumed Thomas must be treating women a certain way, and it seemed racist to me. I’m not claiming you’re being racist, of course, but I do wonder if the reason there is such a rumor out there is because people see Cain as a sleaze despite having absolutely no justification for it.

    Politico spent ten days doing what? I assume searching for someone willing to go on the record. Apparently they failed.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  107. So, whatever happened to Gloria Steinem’s One Free Grope Rule?

    Of course they didn’t really mean it then. But they will just say ‘Cain is a minister who actually acts like he has morals and principles, so he’s a hypocrite! that’s what this is really about!!!!!!!!’

    In reality, there are similarly non-sourced accusations about Obama that simply aren’t published because Obama is a democrat.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  108. ” Such candidates have not received the same vetting as people who have been governors or Senators” Really, Karl? BHO was vetted?

    john b (ebdee3)

  109. 106. “Ace confirmed the he heard these rumors a while ago”

    And every such source had a pole between her legs, and when by a ‘nom de plume’ such as Misty, or Destiny.

    Color us unsurprised.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  110. Dustin,

    Accusations dont occur in a vacuum. They just dont, Anita Hill perhaps but that was soo convoluted but Cain has other problems including some questionable forming of a now defunct company that funneled as it looks hundreds of thousands of dollars to Cains campaign

    And Cain said he new nothing about it

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  111. Accusations dont occur in a vacuum.

    I disagree. I think we cannot rely on the existence of an accusation as evidence against anyone. I don’t want that to be the rule.

    If Cain is really so deplorable, someone who was victimized would want to prevent him from gaining tremendous power.

    I am prepared to believe that Cain was simply the CEO who was sued simply because someone found an excuse. I’m only prepared to believe he did something outrageous after someone personally makes the case.

    ” Such candidates have not received the same vetting as people who have been governors or Senators” Really, Karl? BHO was vetted?

    Comment by john b — 10/31/2011 @ 9:00 am

    Obama is a bit of an exception to the rule there. But democrats, especially Obama, seem to get a pass. Republican governors and Senators probably do not get much of a pass.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  112. The seriousness of the allegation is a decidedly leftist standard to use.

    JD (318f81)

  113. 112. “Accusations dont occur in a vacuum.”

    I have it from a very good source, one that I know intimately(Mr. Hand), that PeeWee’s mom dressed him in pink until the third grade, dominated his choice of friends and activities, never let him speak for himself in public, had a moustache and a raspy contralto voice, and, finally, drank cordials before noon.

    They were very close.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  114. “If Cain is really so deplorable, someone
    who was victimized would want to
    prevent him from gaining tremendous power.”

    Any woman who saw what happened to the VERY CREDIBLE Anita Hill would be nuts to volunteer for that.

    tifosa (f35385)

  115. Really, Karl? BHO was vetted?

    Comment by john b — 10/31/2011 @ 9:00 am

    Also, while I agree Obama got a pass, if we’re only talking about electability, he was elected president. Another way to look at this is that Obama’s very brief career meant many major issues with his background emerged very late (really in the primary). Hillary’s people were talking about his birth certificate. We heard about the cocaine. We heard about Rezko. We heard about Rev Wright. We heard about the anneneberg failure and Bill Ayers, his terrorist pal.

    This all came out way too late. It took tremendous cooperation from the media for Obama to survive, politically. Without that advantage, he would have been crushed with all that scandalous background. A Republican can’t operate under the rules Obama is granted.

    The seriousness of the allegation is a decidedly leftist standard to use.

    Comment by JD — 10/31/2011 @ 9:10 am

    Yeah, that’s giving the MSM all kinds of power over us.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  116. Tiffy is all juiced up today.

    JD (318f81)

  117. Any woman who saw what happened to the VERY CREDIBLE Anita Hill would be nuts to volunteer for that.

    Comment by tifosa — 10/31/2011 @ 9:13 am

    Bzzzzzt. Wrong answer.

    The correct answer was Jennifer Flowers and Paula Jones.

    Any woman who saw what happened to these honest and credible women would hesitate to put themselves in the hot seat.

    But if Cain really had such a ‘numerous’ ‘long’ history, someone would know about it, to the point where they could personally come forward. Wouldn’t even need to be the victim. Cain would not be able to victimize a bunch of women without earning the enmity of a lot of his other colleagues who also worked with these women.

    Sorry, but you’re dead wrong. Someone either thinks this is serious enough to vouch for, or it’s not serious.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  118. “Accusations dont occur in a vacuum.”

    EPWJ – Ever hear the phrase “Jackpot Justice?”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  119. dustin,

    Cain saying there were claims gives legs to the story – remember we are just hearing Cains side and now there are problems with his knowledge of campaign funding and what his 2 campaign managers were doing

    I know everythings a smear then whatever, Fox News Cameron confirmed that these rumors had paperwork and settlements were much higher

    Campaign Carl has a history of making things up?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  120. Dustin

    this is what happens when someone runs for speaking engagements and somehow damm – finds themselves as a front runner.

    Can you Imagine whats going to happen if Gingrich replaces cain as the front runner – ohhh my lord save us

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  121. Acknowledging the existence of something that was never in dispute gives legs to the story?!?!? Good Allah, you are denser than lead.

    JD (318f81)

  122. btw, it’s instructive that Tifosa looked back at all the women who have made accusations, and actually picked Anita Hill, the one who was probably treated with the most respect, and who actually came out OK (she’s a professor now, of course). There’s even an endowment in her name.

    Not all those women that accused Clinton and were destroyed for it. Even Monica was called a deranged stalker. Not the shipped off North America Vera Baker. It’s Anita! I recall the MSM taking her far more seriously than was justified. The ‘attacks’ on Hill amounted to her waiting a decade to complain, and also following Thomas to another job.

    I find Tifosa’s cool aid drinking to be very amusing.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  123. this is what happens when someone runs for speaking engagements and somehow damm – finds themselves as a front runner.

    Yes. This is what happens when someone is a conservative and actually is a front runner for president.

    That’s why I am not taking the allegations very seriously until someone actually tries to make the case in a substantial way. I expect this. I expect it will happen to any conservative front runner. It’ll happen in 2016, too.

    The allegations prove little more than the sun rising proves, since we know it’s to be expected.

    I prefer a difference candidate to Cain, and I do think his campaign lacks the performance or seriousness needed. Their reaction to this is one example, though probably not a very strong one. I also think it’s unfortunate Cain hasn’t run for some lower office before running for President. It definitely is a little more risky this way.

    But I also think Cain is probably being smeared.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  124. No, accusations don’t occur in a vacuum. The accusations against Cain first occurred in a context where he was running a company that could easily afford to pay nuisance money. They now re-occur in a context where he is running for political office. That’s not a vacuum.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  125. 116. ” the VERY CREDIBLE Anita Hill ”

    Fool. Hill had five character witnesses. Only one, another single, marginally older, black woman knew her as a friend and confidant. One other, a young professional dude had dated her approximately once. The most credible witness, an administrator, had routinely done business with her by phone and letter. One, the only other male apart from the foregoing dude, had never even talked by phone but simply knew of her work.

    Orrin Hatch read the text of her charge verbatim from a drug-store(DC not Tulsa) sex novel.

    Thomas had his entire clerical staff, coworkers with Hill, fervently backing him. Hill’s future boss at OK backed him as a “man of God”, Danforth backed him. Everyone they let in the door backing Thomas was credible.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  126. Enough about Cain, I want to know WTF was going on here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M4gz97Y9W8&feature=player_embedded#

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  127. Ah yes, the Romney cult baby wants to thread jack again.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  128. At the top of the show, Rush Limbaugh observes: “Herman Cain is making some people nervous, for this kind of thing to happen.”

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  129. What a troll Haiku has been lately. He’s worse than most of the liberal trolls.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  130. Gotta love ColonelHaiku………….No not really.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  131. What a pansy you’ve become, Dustin.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  132. A. Total. Pansy.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  133. What a pansy you’ve become, Dustin.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/31/2011 @ 9:46 am

    That’s what I expected from you, the Romney cult weirdo who brings up completely random links bashing Perry, to spam every thread, no matter the topic. You link truthers and bilderberger conspiracy kooks and hard left liars. You don’t care. You just pollute threads, ruining a conversation that is on topic.

    You’re an idiot, and this is the best you’re capable of, Haiku.

    You will either prove me right, or you will prove me wrong. My preference is you will prove me wrong, and stop spamming and crying when you’re called out. But we both know you will prove me right.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  134. I sure hope this whack on Cain isn’t traced back to the Perry camp. That would be devastating.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  135. You know if there was only a ‘Move On’ type outfit, for these times when we are switching the strings, on Nero’s violin while Rome is burning.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  136. Not a praiseworthy tactic that was employed against Cain. I truly hope that it wasn’t Perry, as he has an uphill claw/climb as it is.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  137. From the Rush Limbaugh show: First, that Cain denied it. It turns out he didn’t deny some kind of accusation was made years ago.

    Apparently the accusation is/was that he made a gesture t one of them at least that was “not overtly sexual but that made women who experienced or witnessed them uncomfortable.”

    Rush Limbaugh asked what that could be. One member of staff suggested something but he said no, that would be sexual. You can only hear what Rush Limbaugh says, unless he actually calls one of them into the studio and oputs tehm on the microphone, most notably “Bo Snerdly” the Official Obama Critizer. Maybe he’s been the only one so far.

    His staff, after I guess looking a little bit more at their information told him it was moving his tongue around his lips (e.g. like he had just tasted some good food) while looking at them.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  138. It sounds like maybe at that time it never reached the lawsuit stage. But did they file a lawsuit now? Did anyone encourage them to file a lawsuit if they did? Did it get settled? (without consulting Cain, who is no longer at the National restauirant Association)

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  139. His staff, after I guess looking a little bit more at their information told him it was moving his tongue around his lips (e.g. like he had just tasted some good food) while looking at them.

    It was that last slice o’ Godfather’s Pizza that made him do it. Who wouldn’t?

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  140. This apparently supposedly happened at a conference or convention where there were many people around.

    There’s also apparently a picture of Herman Cain circulating around showing that he liked a watermelon at one point.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  141. It turns out he didn’t deny some kind of accusation was made years ago.

    Yeah, some kind of accusation was made, apparently. But so what?

    They can’t deny an accusation was made, even if Cain is utterly innocent.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  142. Racist! Who doesn’t like watermelon?!?!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  143. You’re getting me all wrong. I don’t want this to end his candidacy. I want you R’s to consider this an ASSET and choose THEHermanCain to stand on stage with President Obama.

    tifosa (f35385)

  144. “You’re getting me all wrong. I don’t want this to end his candidacy.”

    tiffy – Why don’t you head back and join the OWS loozers?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  145. Corzine’s MF Global files for bankruptcy.

    I think the Liberals pay better. Not that anyone stays bought, just that there are certain contractors on retainer.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  146. Come on now, MF Corzine’s outfit, it’s like with
    Madoff, ‘is this thing on’?

    narciso (0fc95f)

  147. “Cain saying there were claims gives legs to the story”

    EPWJ – Cain appeared on Fox News and cut the legs off the story. Didn’t you watch the clip?

    What legs are you still hoping for?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  148. Actually, BHO was vetted, just not by the MSM, which refused to cover the issues found by the conservative media they way they will with Cain and other GOPers.

    Karl (f07e38)

  149. Satire or zany mad cap humor?

    http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/94772/

    narciso (0fc95f)

  150. Not a praiseworthy tactic that was employed against Cain.

    I agree with this.

    Sadly, this has been a pattern for some time. We saw it deployed against Daniels and Palin, then T Paw, then Perry, and now Cain.

    People are putting full page ads out there begging for sleaze (and suggesting to the stupid that there must be something like that out there).

    Similar to Haiku’s ‘if perry did it’ claim. We’ve seen endless and baseless accusations. I guess this is the way the GOP handles internal politics now.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  151. Oh dear, EU’s first post-Greece sale, of 5 Billion in eurobonds for 15 years, gets downgraded to 3 Billion for 10 years.

    Somebody is going to get fired next week for buying at any maturity.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  152. It doesn’t matter what the facts are, Dustin, hasn’t
    the last two months shown us this, you can have an email chain that shows a book is totally worthy of being pulped, yet if it’s in some one’s interest, it will not only published, but circulated far and wide,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  153. “Similar to Haiku’s ‘if perry did it’ claim. We’ve seen endless and baseless accusations.”

    I put the oft repeated statement by you and EPWJ that all of Mitt Romney’s success in life is due to his family wealth and father’s political and business connections in this category. You call it simple fact. I call it rank, specious, destructive, class warfare, unprovable speculation. Typical of EPWJ, but not of you.

    That plus the assertion that Romney has no character because he never had any character building experiences.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  154. Herm says he was falsely accused, and if anything was paid he didn’t know about it. He hopes it wasn’t much, nothing happened.

    Looks like Eric’s going to be hunting comely white women, he’s got practice.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  155. Comment by Dustin — 10/31/2011 @ 9:27 am

    I also think it’s unfortunate Cain hasn’t run for some lower office before running for President.

    He did run for lower office before.

    He ran for the Senate on Georgia in 2004 but lost badly in the Republican primary to Johnny Isakson.

    The results were:

    Johnny Isakson: 346,670 (53% – and no runoff)
    Herman Cain 170,370 (26%)
    Mac Collins 133,952 (21%)
    Others.. insignificant

    From the Almanac of American Politics, 2006:

    Isakson passed up a chance to run against Cleland in 2002, but when Zell Miller announced his retirement in January 2003, Isakson announced for the seat a week later. For months he had no well known opponent but eventually he had two serious competitors in the Reopublican primary. One was Herman Cain, who grew up in a black neighborhood in Atlanta, worked for Pillsbury and Burger King, then became CEO and owner of Omaha-based Godfather’s Pizza. In 1994, as president of the National Restaurant Association, Cain attended one of Bill Clinton’s meetings on health care and denounced the Clinton plan. Afterwards he left the company and became a motivational speaker and returned to Atlanta.

    This loses a lot of facts. In fact he left the company in 1996 to become the CEO of the National Restaurant Association (after serving about two years as its president) He had two separate positions there. He stayed in Omaha but got an apartment in Washington. He quit that job in 1999 to run for President but his campaign didn’t get anywhere that year and he endorsed Steve Forbes in his second run, and joined Steve Forbes’ campaign as co-chairman.

    It was only after that that he moved back to Georgia.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  156. Karl,

    We will see, we will see.

    I know that lawyers never write settlement agreements that shield their clients from future embarassment :) Or that large sums of monies are paid.

    Ask Bill O’Reilly

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  157. Similar to Haiku’s ‘if perry did it’ claim. We’ve seen endless and baseless accusations. I guess this is the way the GOP handles internal politics now.

    What’s this I hear about Romney being involved in a grass-growing operation?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  158. That plus the assertion that Romney has no character because he never had any character building experiences.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 10:29 am

    Uh huh.

    But that’s true. Romney has no character. That’s just clear. He changes his positions on matters of core principles.

    And if he had built character at some point, he would… have character.

    That’s why I say I doubt he had any character building in his background.

    I don’t think this is on topic, but to be clear, you suggested an example of how Romney had character, and then noted you were not very familiar with your one example.

    t all of Mitt Romney’s success in life is due to his family wealth and father’s political and business connections in this category.

    That is definitely not what I said. I think Romney had a much easier start in business because his connections gave him advantages. He used those connections to make a ton of money, and that is impressive and shows skill, but it’s also true that he is not self made. We see version 3.0 of this when his campaign asks Romney donors to invest in Romney’s son’s business. Frankly, that’s probably a good investment. Romney’s son will probably have the right connections to have a shot at real success.

    I have no problem with that. I do not engage in class warfare. I distinguished that from Cain and Perry, self made men of great success despite being born to much humbler backgrounds. I personally find Romney’s story less inspiring, and when I ask myself why Romney has no character, I think it probably has something to do with being from his easier background or the political dynasty.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  159. Presumably there’s a clause in any settlements that prevents the parties from talking about it. If so, I wonder: Is Cain also bound by that clause or is he just a third party beneficiary?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  160. He did run for lower office before.

    I stand corrected, Sammy. Good point.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  161. Wondering further: If Cain was already bound by, the beneficiary of, or knowledgeable about any settlement, at what point does talking about this breach the settlement provision and/or (perhaps) release the other parties from their silence?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  162. DRJ

    I would think that since the beneficiary (the one who receives the money) most clauses extend only to them – it couldnt extend to Cain unless he signed off on the papers and agreed to it – which would invalidate his comments on he doesnt know who it is

    Also I cannot imagine a settlement containing the words Sexual Harassment being included

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  163. Wondering further: If Cain was already bound by, the beneficiary of, or knowledgeable about any settlement, at what point does talking about this breach the settlement provision and/or (perhaps) release the other parties from their silence?

    Comment by DRJ — 10/31/2011 @ 10:41 am

    That’s an interesting thought.

    Is Cain being sandbagged here? If he has to defend himself from something he agreed not to discuss, that’s pretty unfair.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  164. Obligatory Cain and Reagan were hitler incarnate post from Huffpunk.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  165. Anyway don’t we have more important things like exposing the cop car defecating radical anarchists for what they are?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  166. Meanwhile back at the ranch, yet another clean energy company went belly up this weekend.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  167. NPR May 7, 2011:

    http://www.npr.org/2011/05/07/135768988/herman-cain-a-political-outsider-and-proud-of-it

    In 2004, the African-American businessman stepped into his first political campaign — challenging Johnny Isakson for a U.S. Senate seat back in his home state of Georgia. He ran several TV ads, including one aimed at the federal budget debate that was going on back then.

    “I’m not a professional politician,” Cain says in the ad. “I’m a professional problem solver, and I believe we should cut the salaries of senators and congressmen 10 percent until they balance the budget. I call that conservative common sense.”

    Picture caption:

    Cain, Johnny Isakson (left) and Mac Collins (reflected in the mirror on the wall) wait before the start of a debate in Atlanta in 2004. The three were running for the U.S. Senate seat then held by Zell Miller.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  168. This sort of thing will plague black men who run for office or let themselves be nominated. Obama was the exception, of course, because one look at Michelle is enough to freeze the necessary anatomic parts.

    Mike K (4c76c8)

  169. Settlements almost never I think are for anything specific – they are global settlements against any claims on any grounds against that person or entity. That’s the way they prevent a slightly different lawsuit from being filed.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  170. Anyway don’t we have more important things like exposing the cop car defecating radical anarchists for what they are?

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/31/2011 @ 10:48 am

    Yeah, that’s a good point. We have real issues. The country has two groups of people with different visions for it. The OWS and the TEAs, and America deserves a full analysis of these people and their different visions.

    Instead, we have, once again, a conservative politician hit with a pretty empty scandal.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  171. Anyway don’t we have more important things like exposing the cop car defecating radical anarchists for what they are?

    #OWS’s true purpose?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  172. Doh

    No but stories like this will help Cain enormously:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/former-cain-staffers-harassment-allegations-unbelievable_604253.html?nopager=1

    Further more testimonials like this will blunt this story forever

    Of course paperwork may still hurt him but now I think only with his signature on it

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  173. Dustin, Doh

    Karl posted this, people crapping on cars, assaulting cops – is what the otherside is about

    Not new, not shocking, not news worthy

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  174. re: the settlement

    A lot of talk on Twitter about this, primarily from lawyers and ex-lawyers.

    According to Weigel (ugh), Cain said he recused himself from the matter and let the accountant and HR handle it.

    It would not be all that unusual for the “accused” to be largely excluded from an investigation. But it does seem a bit odd that he had no idea about the settlements. Allahpundit: “I just find it hard to believe Cain wouldn’t have to approve something like that given that it’s his reputation at stake.”

    Also taking the opposite position is former labor attorney… Jennifer Rubin(!), who shockingly thinks it’s absurd that Cain wouldn’t know.

    Bottom line: The Politico piece is so sketchy that there’s really no way to confidently answer any of these questions. And Politico reporters are getting pushback on the vagueness of the story on Twitter.

    Karl (f07e38)

  175. “Interesting phrasing in Politico’s lede last night: ‘At least’ two female employees…”

    Especially once they’d heard through the office grapevine that there was money to be made.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  176. Good link, Eric.

    Yes, that is perfect handling. Unfortunate that this wasn’t Cain’s first move, but again, I’m not sure we want the slickest politicians to win all the elections.

    I do think all conservative politicians should have folders with the right responses prepared to accusations of homosexuality or sexual harassment of employees or the rest of the playbook we see for any conservative candidate.

    Unfortunately, there are people who will lay such claims just because they are ugly people.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  177. Also, the reason for the second update, is to alert people that the purpose of the Politico story may have been to try to flush others out into public.

    Karl (f07e38)

  178. Funny how the two employees say Cain never harassed her.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  179. “I don’t think this is on topic, but to be clear, you suggested an example of how Romney had character, and then noted you were not very familiar with your one example.”

    Dustin – I’m glad you can now admit you said that Romney has had no character building experiences in his life. It was clear that it was you rather than me who disputed his Mormon Mission in France, the example I gave, built character:

    “I sincerely doubt 30 months in France necessarily builds character.”

    I have no idea what is going on with Mitt’s sons or how that helps solidify what you claim as “simple facts” or objective, good faith arguments about candidates when it is essentially sheer EPWJ-style wild-assed smear work.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  180. Further, as a comment on the campaign, note that a pro crew would have “hung a lantern” on this story: “Yes, there were claims made against me. It’s the sort of thing that goes with being a CEO or pres of a major trade organization. It’s the world we live in, the world fueled by class warfare…” And you could have done it before the Politico story ran.

    Karl (f07e38)

  181. “Also, the reason for the second update, is to alert people that the purpose of the Politico story may have been to try to flush others out into public.”

    Karl – Have Larry Flynt or EPWJ offered any rewards for additional information or accusers yet?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  182. Dustin – I’m glad you can now admit you said that Romney has had no character building experiences in his life. It was clear that it was you rather than me who disputed his Mormon Mission in France, the example I gave, built character:

    I say Romney shows no character now. Modus tollens, his background didn’t bring him any.

    I never wanted to discuss Mormonism. You brought that up, and I expressed confusion and asked specifically what about his experience there, when other men his age were fighting in Vietnam, really proved. IMO, his religion is not a reason to support or reject him.

    In ‘disputing’ your argument of his mission trip, I basically just said I am ignorant about that and already concluded Romney’s lack of character because of his unprincipled flip flopping.

    I have no idea what is going on with Mitt’s sons or how that helps solidify what you claim as “simple facts” or objective, good faith arguments about candidates when it is essentially sheer EPWJ-style wild-assed smear work.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 11:03 am

    There’s nothing wild styled about my claims, but I don’t want to thread jack. You can look into this. It’s very well known.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  183. btw, Karl, thanks for the updates and the good blogging as usual.

    I disagree with the Washington Post’s way of analyzing this, and the kind of innuendo people will read into that. Just because Romney gains the most from a Cain scandal (at least according to them) doesn’t mean the GOP is actually eating its own.

    Personally, I think it’s nearly a force of nature at this point that outspoken conservatives will get hit with harsh and poorly sourced scandals, and the media will show less skepticism than they will show towards moderates and liberals.

    I don’t like Romney, but I personally doubt his campaign would be behind this kind of smear because that is probably counterproductive, and they aren’t idiots.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  184. Hot Air post on this:

    http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2011/10/31/early-thoughts-on-the-herman-cain-sexual-harassment-story/

    One comment :

    I’ve seen three comments now on three different blogs using the phrase “An attorney friend in Atlanta, informed me six months ago, that Herman did not have the best morals.” Identical language.

    This sounds like a planted talking point. The attorney friend, and the quote, are outright fabrications. Or, in conservative-speak, outright lies.

    No, the attorney might be real – might even have arranged for these blog posts to be made. What this reminds me of is seattle545. This could just be one person looking for places to post.

    I actually found that comment only on Hot Air. It was from Kermit on October 31, 2011 at 9:50 AM and the person who recognized it as familiar was bonnie_ on October 31, 2011 at 10:12 AM.

    Kermit replies:

    bonnie, I tried to tell those who were star struck after hearing Cain speak here locally, in April about this. I only said to watch out and make darned sure that you are not backing a turkey.

    Kermit on October 31, 2011 at 11:19 AM

    I searched to see if I could find other blog posts woith identical language. It may be too soon. I didn’t find such an exact quote via Google.

    I found only:

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/10/30/the-oppo-dump-on-herman-cain-begins-in-earnest/

    I heard some of this from an attorney friend in Atlanta who is friends with several members of Cain’s church. It was put to me as, “They are not impressed with his morals.” I expect much more to be revealed in the near future.

    citizenkh Sunday, October 30th at 11:20PM EDT

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  185. Q. If this is true, why wait until now? Could be maybe Herman Cain maybe is just now getting very serious. Could be maybe Perry has sunk so low this can’t help him.

    All of this might be being done not so much by any candidate as by campaign professionals, who disparage any candidate not paying them a lot of money, or who don’t treat campaign staff with deference, and who maybe even pick and choose themselves who they want, ruling some in and out maybe based on with what administration could they make the most money.

    The last thing they would want is any candidate to win without using them. A new model of campaigning.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  186. Comment by Milhouse — 10/31/2011 @ 10:54 am

    #OWS’s true purpose?

    To make any criticism of Barack Obama’s legislative proposals on the economy, especially raising taxes on the highest 1%, politucally incorrect.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  187. Q. If this is true, why wait until now? Could be maybe Herman Cain maybe is just now getting very serious. Could be maybe Perry has sunk so low this can’t help him.

    Naw, I think it’s just that the MSM runs crap about conservative politicians with a low ethical threshold. If the story were true, I bet the democrats would actually hold on to it and hope Cain was on the ticket, then unload it, as late as possible.

    But if there is some hidden agenda, it’s probably just some disgruntled individual with an axe to grind against Cain. Perhaps a blackmail effort that didn’t work out. Who knows?

    I doubt this one will go anywhere.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  188. Comment by The practical Dana — 10/31/2011 @ 8:34 am

    If Politico produces the documents, they have proved their story; if they don’t or can’t produce the documents, it means that they deliberately lied.

    No it doesn’t. The problem is that to produce them somebody has to violate either attorney-client privilege, or break a confidentiality agreement, which may have some penalties.

    The leak almost certainly originally came from people bound by attorney-client privilege, not the women, who anyway wouldn’t have contacts in the press, or a PR agent.

    What the actual truth might be behind the accusations and the settlements is hard to tell.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  189. Dustin,

    Like you, I don’t necessarily buy that Romney would be the beneficiary here. However, I linked it because I previously noted that many will assume the story originated with Team Perry, and also noted that Roger Simon wanted to at least imply Politico generated the story on its own. We’ll likely never know.

    Karl (f07e38)

  190. Correction: October 31, 2011

    An earlier version of this post misspelled the surname of Herman Cain as McCain.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  191. Good call, daley. He’s nothing more than a besotted smear merchant.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  192. However, I linked it because I previously noted that many will assume the story originated with Team Perry, and also noted that Roger Simon wanted to at least imply Politico generated the story on its own. We’ll likely never know.

    Comment by Karl — 10/31/2011 @ 11:36 am

    Ah, I see. Yeah, given the way blog commenters see things, it is bubble bursting to see that Cain’s supporters will go to Romney more than other candidates.

    I just disagree with Wapo and, like you, the innuendo of blaming ‘who benefits’. My guess is a lot of that drama is completely artificial. It’s also a great way to kill two birds with one stone.

    Sometimes those deranged Palin supporters bashing Mitch Daniels were actually Obama supporters who want to hit two camps with one moby.

    Anyway, I think it’s good you linked the Wapo’s coverage even if I do think they are reaching.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  193. Um … blech.

    So, there are two possibilities here.

    (1) it’s true. in which case herman cain – a man whose politics I disagree with but who in many ways is the most interesting candidate of the election – turns out to be a slimeball and his candidacy is effectively over because he couldn’t treat other people decently.

    (2) it’s not true. in which case fake allegations of improper sexual behavior are being thrown at a candidate willy-nilly, with the result that (a) such allegations will be less likely to be believed in the future (even when true), (b) the issue is cheapened and somewhat trivialized, and (c) an innocent man is dragged publically through the mud.

    There’s nothing in this which should cause anyone joy.

    Can I stick my head back in the snow now?

    aphrael (a0f788)

  194. Why do all people stereotype jews and blacks as greedy money hungry sex hounds but when you call Chuck Schumer greedy all hell breaks loose?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  195. 199. Cain confirms they were “sexual” rather than “inappropriate” charges. I wonder if even that much can be taken for granted, Cain really has some loose ends lying about.

    Two months to go. “This is the way the world ends…”

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  196. That about sums it up, Aphrael.

    Sadly, we live in a world where people will trivialize serious issues like sexual harassment, either for a minor payday or just to get some attention, or I guess for political points.

    Innocent men in politics are trampled by dishonorable men every day.

    We’ve got two guys in this thread who thought it was funny to claim Perry is gay. Not because they believed it. Just because they are old men with the brains of children, and want to express, more than anything else, that they hate those they disagree with.

    And these are actually relatively adult comment sections. It gets much worse, not much better, if you look around.

    We’re already at a point where various cults of personality trash all challengers, and never really take the big picture seriously. The innocent people who get smeared, and the trivialization of any real problem out there, is not even considered.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  197. So what about Franklin Marshall Davis and Vera Baker?

    Why would Grams get the derisive obit when Gramps brought home the pederasts?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  198. And what about Romney’s grass-growing operation?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  199. “I never wanted to discuss Mormonism. You brought that up, and I expressed confusion and asked specifically what about his experience there, when other men his age were fighting in Vietnam, really proved. IMO, his religion is not a reason to support or reject him.”

    Dustin – Your attempt to rewrite the discussion is very disingenuous. It was a Mormon Mission, so the mention of religion was obvious, the purpose was to proselytize for his faith. How you avoid mentioning a religion while describing that is a mystery it seems only you have solved. The alternative to Vietnam? Perhaps you can point me to your comments on that. I’m having trouble finding them.

    “Just to be clear, I have not hidden my bias against Romney.”

    Just to be clear, you can’t defend you bias against him with the facts and objective, good faith argumentation you keep claiming to have. Just to be clear.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  200. Update 3: Via Allahpundit, it may be that a less-than-100K settlement suggests innocence more than guilt, particularly if the NRA was insured (which we don’t know). I do not specialize in this area, but it is true that insurers would be pretty sensitive to to cost of defending versus settling.

    I’ll tell you (or speculate) more.

    The accusation might not only have been made against Herman Cain. There are some clues to that in that what I heard of the accusation against Herman Cain seems almost trivial (although that could be a counterleak) and it is supposedd to have taken place at some kind of convention or something, and thoughts abouyt how this leaked.

    I had a thought:

    Perhaps two women came to the same unethical lawyer (specializing in sexual harassment discrimination and so on like that) and they were told the case would be much better if there were also some accusations against the CEO of the national restaurant Association. Not just some lower ranking person, not just that they were negligent in setting up a situation.

    The important thing to the attorney was to accuse the head even if it didn’t amount to anything.

    That would delegate decision making down to somebody else, mainly the insurance company. He may not have explained that detail.

    So both of them invented something or blew something totally out of proportion or deliberately misinterpreted something in retrospect.

    Then, they settled. The settlement didn’t, as usual, specify what it was for, or what allegations were found credible and what allegations were not, although Herman Cain got cleared of any wrongdoing in an internal investigation. The accusation itself however may not have amounted to any “wrongdoing” There may have been other accusatioins against other people that would amount to wrongdoing perhaps, but for which the National Restaurant Association might not be held responsible.

    I’m assuming something happened to get these women to a lawyer. I’m not assuming that what got them to that lawyer was anything that happened with Herman Cain himself.

    But rather the lawyer suggested the case would be much better if they could include some allegation against Herman Cain.

    What they came up with was maybe not a big lie, maybe even only a distortion, and it was just designed to get Herman Cain recused from the matter, so another lawyer or friend the lawyer knew at the National Restaurant Association or the insurance company would play a much bigger role in any decision.

    Years later, the unethical lawyer starts marketing the story because he’s got connections with some anti-Cain people, or maybe because, well, because he’s unethical and he doesn’t need someone not so unethical who knows óf him in high public office..

    The claim that there’s a lot more where that camwe from is…a lie, designed to cause people to pay more attention to the spoecific allegations, which news outlets won’t disclose.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  201. Comment by gary gulrud — 10/31/2011 @ 11:56 am

    Two months to go.

    That’s more than enough time to see how all this plays out long before any votes are cast.

    From Rich Galen’s Mullings newsletter:

    http://www.mullings.com/

    Here were the numbers from approximately the same point – October 2007 – in the Iowa process four years ago:

    Mitt Romney – 29%
    Fred Thompson – 18%
    Mike Huckabee – 12%
    Rudy Giuliani – 11%
    John McCain – 7%
    Ron Paul – 4%

    [Total: 81%]

    And the actual caucus results in January, 2008 were:

    Huckabee – 34.4%
    Mitt Romney – 25.2%
    Fred Thompson – 13.4%
    John McCain – 13.0%
    Ron Paul – 9.9%
    Rudy Giuliani – 3.4%

    [Total 99.3%]
    Des Moines Register poll of Republicans in Iowa
    October 30, 2011:

    Herman Cain – 23%
    Mitt Romney – 22%
    Ron Paul – 12%
    Michelle Bachmann – 8%
    Newt Gingrich – 7%
    Rick Perry – 7%
    Rick Santorum – 5%
    Jon Huntsman – 1%

    Note – numbers only add up to 85%

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  202. aphrael,

    I think option “(3) – it’s murky or exaggerated” is also possible, especially if this occurred at a time and place when male-female workplace relationships were evolving. What seemed perfectly acceptable behavior to some was completely unacceptable to others. For that matter, even some of today’s men and women have problems agreeing on appropriate workplace behavior.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  203. Mitt plays hardball & another Republican ‘front runner’ bites the dust, this time because of a Clarence Thomas problem. Good times.

    The Mormon is going to get the nomination, it’s inevitable. Which means Obama will be a 2 term President. Thank the Lord.

    Spartacvs (2d9449)

  204. 207. Thank you. You addressed my primary concern.

    There remains, however, a minority interest in seeing the end of days interrupt this glee.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  205. Your attempt to rewrite the discussion is very disingenuous. It was a Mormon Mission, so the mention of religion was obvious, the purpose was to proselytize for his faith. How you avoid mentioning a religion while describing that is a mystery

    I didn’t bring it up. I don’t care that Romney is mormon. You brought up that Romney was doing this, and also claimed it was character building because france has wine drinking catholics. I don’t care that Romney practiced his faith. It’s not a consideration for me.

    I’m not rewriting anything. You brought up his practice of his religion to attempt to say I am being unfair to note Romney lacks character. Your rebuttal completely avoids my argument, which is that Romney has flip flopped in a way I find impossible if he had character, because some of these issues simply aren’t issues 58 year old men change their mind about.

    The alternative to Vietnam? Perhaps you can point me to your comments on that. I’m having trouble finding them.

    I’ve noted it many times.

    Your attempts to deny my argument, and respond with something I didn’t say is not disingenuous, but rather simply dishonest, Daleyrocks. You even responded to me in that thread, so you know I made this point before. You aren’t having trouble finding them. You are simply a trashy psycho. That’s why you suggested I was gay with Rick Perry, and then change tune to posing as a civil respectable person now. You are not a respectable person just because good folks choose not to react to you with anger all the time.

    You have repeatedly used unbelievably strange arguments to excuse Romney’s terrible performance, his gun grabbing, his support for Romneycare, and ultimately, even suggested his policies in MA are not manifestly inferior to Perry’s policies in TX. All this to pretend this:

    you can’t defend you bias against him with the facts and objective, good faith argumentation

    WRONG. I am biased against Romney because he has a record of spending, taxing, gun grabbing, forcing health insurance via government intrusion, flip flopping on core principles, failing to be proactive when illegals are working on his property, failing to be proactive with sanctuary cities (while pretending to take the issue seriously later), and, ultimately, what I perceive to be a complete phoniness.

    Your responses have consistently been to ignore what I’m saying and argue I’m a liar based on things I’m not saying.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  206. “A Clarence Thomas problem”? Remember that there has never been a point in the last 30 years at which Clarence Thomas would not have handily won a Republican primary. So if Cain has become like Thomas then he will win.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  207. DRJ, that’s fair, although I think ‘murky or exaggerated’ carries with it most of the same negative consequences I listed in (2).

    For that matter, even some of today’s men and women have problems agreeing on appropriate workplace behavior.

    Aye. That’s certainly true.

    aphrael (a0f788)

  208. I still want to hear about Romney and his grass-growing connection. Why will nobody discuss that? Also, wasn’t he responsible for the scandal-ridden SLC Olympics? And his own father was a Mexican immigrant who came to the USA with no visa! And is it a coincidence that his name sounds very like “Romany”? Any Gypsy connection we should know about? Also, he masticates in public and his sister is a notorious thespian.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  209. Spurty never fails to lower the bar. Much like epwj in that regard.

    JD (be35b9)

  210. Perry’s campaign might benefit from Cain’s problems and certainly could have engineered this leak. But the Romney campaign also has a good reason to fear Cain’s candidacy, especially since one of Romney’s top advisers knows how compelling Cain can be and probably would have known about these allegations:

    If the Republican primary is now a Mitt Romney-vs.-Herman Cain contest, Romney has an ace up his sleeve: One of his top advisers has run a winning campaign against Cain before.

    Not many in politics can make that claim. In his only real previous try for elected office, Cain ran in Georgia’s 2004 GOP Senate primary, coming in second to now-Sen. Johnny Isakson.

    Back then, Romney strategist Stuart Stevens was a consultant to Isakson. Of Cain, Stevens recalls: “He scared the heck out of us.”

    Cain’s 2004 candidacy positioned him to the right of an establishment candidate distrusted by the base, particularly on social issues. Sound familiar?

    Stevens is not surprised to see Cain’s pitch resonating the way it is at the moment. He’s seen Cain’s appeal up close before.

    “I like him a lot,” Stevens said. “I like anybody who gets in this process for a reason and has fun.”

    Finally, if Politico originated this, it makes sense to me that it would be handled as a leak. Publishing information based on a leak helps Politico deflect accusations of racism: It wasn’t “us” who said Cain did this, it was the unnamed accuser(s). The last thing Politico wants to do is undermine Obama’s ability next year to play the race card against his accusers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  211. Women-Hermain Cain didn’t act inappropriate towards us.

    Lefties-Traitors to their gender start the attack on their character.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  212. Tammy Bruce’s rule, re Palin coverage, but it’s generally more applicable to all the candidates,
    if a story seems out of character, with what we
    already know, dismiss it or at least don’t suspend
    disbelief. And that has always served in good stead.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  213. Anyways Obama could rape Beyonce Knowles and the left will still endorse him and complain about a Mccarthyesque witchhunt.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  214. Cain once killed a wolf and used its skull for a bong.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  215. Perry’s campaign might benefit from Cain’s problems and certainly could have engineered this leak. But the Romney campaign also has a good reason to fear Cain’s candidacy,

    Whoever is behind this did something very dirty to be ashamed of, unless they have something substantial to back this up with.

    Finally, if Politico originated this, it makes sense to me that it would be handled as a leak.

    Great point. I guess it’s expecting too much for Ace to reveal how he heard about these rumors, since he would want to show he can keep a confidence.

    But I do think Politico in particular is hungry for any story related to the GOP primary. It doesn’t have to be part of a grand agenda. And their standards for what they will report are not my standards.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  216. Comment by Milhouse — 10/31/2011 @ 1:26 pm

    Remember that there has never been a point in the last 30 years at which Clarence Thomas would not have handily won a Republican primary.

    Last twenty years. October, 1991.

    Sammy finkelman (d3daeb)

  217. aphrael,

    I’m thinking of a “he said, she said” where both substantially agree what happened but disagree regarding what it meant. For instance, a male supervisor who puts his arm around a woman’s shoulder as a friendly gesture, while the female employee views it as an unwelcome sexual overture. Today, most of us know not to do something like that, but it hasn’t always been the case.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  218. Dustin,

    My guess is this surfaced during Cain’s Senate race, even if it wasn’t made public. But how can this not be news if there were complaints and possibly even settlements?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  219. Last twenty years. October, 1991.

    I meant thirty. He was popular among conservatives since the early ’80s, and it’s my opinion that he would have won any R primary had he chosen to run for something.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  220. But how can this not be news if there were complaints and possibly even settlements?

    I suppose you’re right. A man running for president has to expect his legal matters to be highlighted in the news. In my view, there’s little here to get animated about, but Geraldo’s ‘you’re not denying it right!!!!’ attitude is what I see as normal for attacks on conservatives lately. Even before anyone knows … anything about a scandal, the candidate is considered guilty.

    I can be pretty unrealistic in my expectations. I expect that a scandal not be brought up until there’s enough information to clearly explain what the problem was. This places a substantial burden on Politico to successfully investigate the matter and report it in a way that is actually informative. Like I said, unrealistic.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  221. But how can this not be news if there were complaints and possibly even settlements?

    Um, perhaps you can explain what exactly is newsworthy about the mere existence of a complaint, which anyone can make at any time for any reason or just for lulz? Or, for that matter, about possible nuisance complaints being settled for nuisance money? How is that more newsworthy than a minor fender-bender or the fact that on the 35th of January 1995 the candidate blew his nose?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  222. I do not like Obama but if there were lies circulating that he sexually harrassed women they need to stop.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  223. Um, perhaps you can explain what exactly is newsworthy about the mere existence of a complaint, which anyone can make at any time for any reason or just for lulz?

    All she’s saying is that a man is running for president and that means his settled legal matters have a certain significance. Even if it’s just a nuisance lawsuit settled because it costs more to defend in court, it’s the kind of thing that should be looked at.

    What’s unfortunate is not that people take a look. Let’s know more about all these candidates. What’s unfortunate is the guilty until proven innocent attitude that conservatives get, or what may even be some racism about the way black men are, which we saw with Clarence Thomas to some extent.

    In my opinion, journalists should see themselves as in a critical role in our society, and aspire to only present these stories in the most sober and honest fashion, after they have done substantial research. If Cain settled a nuisance lawsuit, go ahead and report that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  224. Milhouse,

    A complaint of inappropriate sexual conduct or behavior is relevant to character, and character is an issue in Presidential politics.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  225. DRJ – at the risk of running the conversation off topic, it somewhat saddens me that that kind of physicality is now no longer allowed. It would never occur to me that it’s a sexual gesture. *sigh*

    aphrael (a0f788)

  226. Let see if they can get the five w’s, where, what, who, when and why, right, then they can move on to commentary.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  227. Um, no. Inappropriate sexual conduct or behavior is relevant to character, but a complaint of inappropriate sexual conduct or behavior is not even slightly relevant to character.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  228. Sorry for speaking for you, DRJ. You don’t need that kind of assistance, obviously.

    I agree with you that scrutinizing the character of these candidates is important. The consequences of a low character president are tremendous.

    Just imagine if Nixon had been ethical. No President Carter, for starters.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  229. DRJ

    According to Hotair’s Allahpundit Cain know remembers details something he tried playing off earlier, perhaps emboldened by talk that settlements are small, Cain now remembers things

    great..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  230. it somewhat saddens me that that kind of physicality is now no longer allowed.

    Who doesn’t allow it? Just because one woman got some money from one company for complaining about it, did a memo suddenly go out that nobody can use such gestures any more? I never got that memo, and it would never occur to me not to use it, if I ever had occasion to. I mean, who can predict what some disturbed person will see sexual innuendo in next? As the old joke goes, “you’re the one showing me all these dirty pictures”.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  231. Just imagine if Nixon had been ethical. No President Carter, for starters.

    Just imagine if Nixon had been conservative.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  232. Cain contradicts himself: “not aware of any settlement” then soon after, in a taped interview with Greta, he said the woman got 3mo. salary.

    Karl brings up a good point. Cain should have come out with this long before now, AT LEAST the 10 days ago when he was informed Politico had it.

    tifosa (f35385)

  233. it somewhat saddens me that that kind of physicality is now no longer allowed. It would never occur to me that it’s a sexual gesture. *sigh*

    Comment by aphrael — 10/31/2011 @ 2:11 pm

    Zero tolerance is lazy leadership. Folks have to walk on eggshells instead of being people. But that ship has sailed. I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  234. Cain contradicts himself: “not aware of any settlement” then soon after, in a taped interview with Greta, he said the woman got 3mo. salary.

    Huh? Where’s the ocntradiction? You acknowledged that some time passed between the two statements. Thus, there is no contradiction.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  235. two hours? puh leez

    tifosa (f35385)

  236. Zero tolerance is lazy leadership. Folks have to walk on eggshells instead of being people. But that ship has sailed. I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

    It needn’t have sailed, if people just stop putting up with it. Every person who simply says “no, I will not submit to witch-hunting and subjective standards” is one stone in the dam.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  237. Accusations dont occur in a vacuum.

    EPWJ is a space alien. There, disproved.

    Kevin M (4eb9c8)

  238. Two hours of racking your brain and/or consulting records and people who were around at the time is sufficient either to recall more details or to find them out for the first time.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  239. Space aliens don’t occur in vacuum either. They have to breathe something. Unless they don’t.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  240. Sparticles exceeds at lowering the bar

    Icy (c22ba2)

  241. hahahah, uh, yeh. This broke last night and this afternoon he “racked his brain.”

    tifosa (f35385)

  242. Yes, he’s had all of a day to recall and/or research details.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  243. It needn’t have sailed, if people just stop putting up with it. Every person who simply says “no, I will not submit to witch-hunting and subjective standards” is one stone in the dam.

    Comment by Milhouse — 10/31/2011 @ 2:20 pm

    Not a bad reaction to have, but when you’re running a huge company and trying to make sure you’re making money, and have all this responsibility… sometimes you have to submit to unfair and stupid zero tolerance policies.

    Actually, this applies to a lot of people. Yeah, I’d love to go about my work day with certain filters turned down a bit. But I have priorities and am not brave enough to face down a lawsuit for offering a shoulder rub or making the wrong kind of joke.

    People put up with it because the legal system has great power. What we probably need is a loser-pays provision. Alternatively, shut down all but the top 25 law schools in the country and I bet a large number of our problems start to dissipate over a generation or so.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  244. Cain now remembers details

    sorry

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  245. aphrael,

    I agree, and fortunately most of the time people give each other the benefit of the doubt. In Cain’s case, it’s hard to know whether the incident(s) involved questionable behavior, an agenda, a misunderstanding, or something else.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  246. Alternatively, shut down all but the top 25 law schools in the country

    Here’s a better idea: shut down just those 25.

    But if we’ve reached a world in which random gestures such as holding your hand up to indicate a particular height are somehow perceived as offensive and banned from the workplace then the terrorists have won. We have a civic duty to resist whenever we can.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  247. Here’s a better idea: shut down just those 25.

    😀

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  248. Dude Barack Obama can sexually harrass women and they will still worship him because he is a marxist dem.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  249. Though IMO, the real problem is that there are so many lawyers they are desperate for enough work to feed their families.

    You should be truly outraged by someone’s behavior, for a reason that folks can identify with, before you take an issue to the lawsuit phase. It should be a major expression that you have a major problem.

    There are not nearly as many cases like that as there are lawyers who need cases like that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  250. I worked at a place that got sued for harassment.
    This young woman decided she was lesbian; which was fine except the workplace was at a christian school that had a conduct code and mission statement you had to sign off on.
    Working with her was always difficult even before the coming out. She was overly and dramatically emotional, rude and nasty.
    I was the only guy she’d speak to politely…sometimes.
    So she is pitching a fit and the boss touches her shoulder and tells her that she needs to learn to lower her volume and change the tone.
    She turned that into an attempt at a grope; charges it is a hostile workplace.
    Then slaps a “Lick Bush in ’88 bumpersticker on her VW.
    Next thing you know we are all herded into a room where a bunch of lesbian feminists harangue us for the day. One woman who was claiming that all white males were oppressors, singles me out as her example by asking me a question along the lines of taking what I’d learned so far in the seminar, how had I oppressed the lesbian at work?
    I said “I dunno, I’m her only friend so I thought I was doing ok…”
    The three women doing the seminar went nuts as my white male privilege was by definition oppressive and had I learned nothing?

    What horsecrap.

    Anyway, I hope Herman Cain actually did lick his lips and tell some woman that she was burning that dress up.
    It’ll prepare him for his first meeting with the woman that runs Argentina

    SteveG (e27d71)

  251. 😀 I heard a rumor that Barack Obama was a metrosexual jackwagon.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  252. Milhouse,

    We all make judgments about people’s character based on circumstantial information that might not rise to the level of proof. I think that’s especially true in national politics, where most of us never get to meet the candidates and certainly don’t know them well. It makes sense to have a different level of proof in a courtroom vs in life.

    As for workplace relationships, I think smart people change their conduct to avoid problems that threaten their employment or reputation. If you can avoid it, it’s just common sense to avoid letting a casual gesture morph into a sexual harassment claim.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  253. EPWJ is a space alien. There, disproved.

    Not so fast, there…

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  254. Instead of using the word capitialism let us use the word free markets.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  255. Does anyone know the timeline on when Politico told the Cain campaign about this story or when it leaked? Could the Cain campaign have been notified prior to October 1?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  256. Brett Baier just accused Cain of lying

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  257. I saw this report that Politico has been asking the Cain campaign for comment since approximately October 20, 2011, but I’m curious if anyone knows how long Politico has been looking into this.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  258. EPWJ — whose accusations are formulated within the vacuum between his ears — just lied about Brett Baier accusing Cain of lying.

    Icy (c22ba2)

  259. Did this attack qualify as an October Surprise? Is this perhaps what Bill Clinton was alluding to one month ago when he made a comment about having some derogatory info that would take down one of the Republican front-runners?

    Or would that be saved for next October?

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  260. No… found what I was thinking about and it definitely sounds much worse than this… from Jay Nordlinger:

    “Andrew Roberts, the historian, drops something tantalizing in the current Spectator. To read his “Diary,” go here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/wit-and-wisdom/diary/7256373/diary.thtml He attended a party on Martha’s Vineyard, a party also attended by the Clintons. “Bill told my wife Susan and me something rather shocking about one of the Republican presidential frontrunners, unrepeatable in a family magazine such as this. If it’s true, the race is still wide open . . .”

    If the Democrats have bombs to drop on the Republican nominee — whoever he is — they will likely drop them a year from now: as Election Day approaches. In the meantime, the Republicans oughta — you know: vet.”

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  261. sons a b*tches, anyway.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  262. Icy – go watch the video – he basically led in that Cain denied knowing anything then in an interview a few hours later – he did indeed know at least one person, told what happened and told what the settlement was

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  263. “We’ve got two guys in this thread who thought it was funny to claim Perry is gay.”

    Dustin – Those types of comments are terrible.

    “daleyrocks has a point.

    BY EPWJ’s standards of evidence, Perry is a flaming homo. Probably listens to Lady Gaga and everything.

    Why did Perry choose to make that public? By EPWJ standards.

    Comment by Dustin — 9/19/2011 @ 10:53 pm”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  264. “The alternative to Vietnam? Perhaps you can point me to your comments on that. I’m having trouble finding them.

    I’ve noted it many times.”

    Dustin – Your reference is to a thread two weeks later than the thread I pulled your comments from to claim you are not rewriting history?

    Sorry. No go.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  265. Ya think this one might just end up having extra cheese?

    Back to you, Mr. Romney. Flip those pancakes.

    Are you conservatives holding an ugly baby contest, or what?

    Larry Reilly (bedb92)

  266. “Your rebuttal completely avoids my argument, which is that Romney has flip flopped in a way I find impossible if he had character, because some of these issues simply aren’t issues 58 year old men change their mind about.”

    Dustin – On the contrary, my argument directly addresses your argument that Romney has never had any character building experiences. Your bizarre contention that it is bizarre to mention Romney’s religion in the context of a Mormon Mission and lack of intellectual curiosity about the duties required from the participants in such a mission bely your bias against the man. Contempt before investigation.

    Backtracking and rewriting what was said on that thread will not help your credibility and your inability to distinguish opinion from fact is another beacon of your bias.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  267. Larry Reilly – Happy Hour end early today, you lush?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  268. The answer is that this is amateur hour, emblematic of a candidate who has not taken his campaign very seriously throughout

    Or he is a liar, that could be it, Krauthammer just said well its not that he’s a liar..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  269. It’s trick-or-treat time in my neighborhood. Happy Halloween, everyone!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  270. happy halloween! I’m a have a tasty no sugar added klondike bar

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  271. Karl: “Update 5″

    I know it’s not easy to post, let alone Update posts, but I’m delighted you’re going to all this effort. Thank you!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  272. I may nibble on the treats, too, happyfeet. It’s a fun holiday, especially with all the precious princesses and superheroes arriving at my door.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  273. How can Cain go from claiming he was unaware of a settlement, to saying it involved 3 months salary…

    Mr. Herman says “we ended up settling for what would have been a termination settlement.” So probably he was previously distinguishing between a termination settlement and a settlement of vague and unspecified wrongdoings which he never did do cause of he’s a gentleman.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  274. the no sugar added klondike bars only have 170 calories – but I’ve been craving chocolate for days and days and they’re not exactly doing the trick

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  275. ==“How can Cain go from claiming he was unaware of settlement, to saying it involved 3 months salary, within a matter of hours?” ==

    I dunno. Maybe he had been having it checked out during that several hours of time and got the answer about a settlement so he could comment appropriately? Kind of like adding updates to a blog post when updated info becomes available and can be shared?

    elissa (f79462)

  276. No Wesley Clark listens to Lady Gaga.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  277. Are you conservatives holding an ugly baby contest, or what?

    Comment by Larry Reilly

    and we got a winner!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  278. Really disappointed by this post.

    One point that’s ignored – this settlement was supposed to be CONFIDENTIAL. Who’s talking? The women are – obviously. Aren’t they breaching the terms of their agreements?

    Who benefits from this non-story? Mitt Romney. Don’t think this is coming from Perry’s camp.

    Who wrote the Politico hit piece? Jonathan Martin – using anonymous sources. He also just happened to be the “reporter” who wrote the hit piece on Rick Perry – “Is Rick Perry DUMB?” And he wrote hit pieces on Sarah Palin, including the one alleging she was “wreaking havoc” on the campaign trail. ALL quoting “anonymous sources”. How many of those sources actually exist – and how many did Martin concoct?

    Read what Cain’s colleagues have said about him – including his long-term secretary – what a gentleman he has always been etc.: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/former-cain-staffers-harassment-allegations-unbelievable_604253.html

    And Karl’s comment about how experienced political candidates (meaning those who’ve held political advice) get “vetted” – oh, please. Yeah, just like Obama got vetted. Sure. Plus Cain ran for Senate before – and this garbage didn’t come up then. So much for the “vetting” process.

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    Miranda (4104db)

  279. politico is
    Air Obama nothing more
    and, yes… nothing less

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  280. Your too late Larry your friend Helen Thomas won.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  281. Kenneth Vogel may indeed be the single most disreputable “reporter” currently working in the mainstream media. And that is saying something.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  282. Wesley Clark listens to Blossom Dearie, biden.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  283. and she votes!

    http://youtu.be/OW56Z-0xwIQ

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  284. elissa – no ones buying that in the media – Krauthammer gives him 48 hrs if another case comes out – he’s done

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  285. someone is having fun with Democrat voters!

    http://youtu.be/NA-ST8nXl4U

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  286. “In the meantime, in a desperate grab for attention, Mitt tries to convince people he’s capable of being involved in a sex scandal.”

    tifosa (f35385)

  287. and one of the herd can speak! tifosa!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  288. …so, another tea down…Or wait, does this enhance his qualifications?

    tifosa (f35385)

  289. Tommy Christopher is an abundantly strange little man I think

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  290. Elissa – silly talk. I think everyone should go look at all of the claims epwj made last night, and asserted as fact, and compare to what is now known. Serial asshat.

    JD (be35b9)

  291. Has anyone ever seen epwj tiffyosa Mawy Reilly and tommy xtopher in the same room?

    JD (be35b9)

  292. Karl, for what it’s worth: It’s not a major part of my practice anymore, but in the past I’ve represented both plaintiffs and defendants in sexual harassment cases from time to time. I could be mistaken, but my impression are:

    Most businesses and associations have commercial general liability (CGL) insurance policies that promise to indemnify and defend the insured against a broad variety of risks. The insurance industry generally treats sexual harassment claims as being like intentional torts — battery, for example — that are excluded from coverage as part of standard policy boilerplate.

    Of course if you go to Lloyds of London or similar syndicates of specialty insurers and reinsurers, you can buy coverage for anything — Lauren Bacall’s legs, Tony Romo’s arm, the risk of aliens teleporting your data off your hard drive. It’s also possible for companies to purchase claims adjustment services — outsourcing that function — separately from liability insurance against any resulting judgments.

    But I believe that for the most part, businesses and organizations are generally self-insured — i.e., liable for both costs of defense and payment of any judgment out of their own pockets.

    Of course, cost of defense is an important factor to consider in settlement decisions no matter who is bearing those costs.

    Beldar (d2f94c)

  293. There’s also the possibility that the “inappropriate conduct” claim was alleged in the alternative under multiple legal theories, e.g., that the restaurant association was negligent in selecting Cain and putting him in a position to yada yada yada. Sometimes lawyers will deliberately include such an allegation specifically with the intention to trigger insurance coverage, thereby also triggering an obligation on the insurer’s part to provide a defense (i.e., hire and pay for defense counsel).

    But that’s typically done with a “reservation of rights” letter in which the insurance company says, “Okay, since you’re being sued in part for negligence, we’re defending, but just be aware, if you get tagged for something other than negligence, we’re not going to pay the judgment on your behalf because our policy doesn’t insure you against those other things.”

    Having that situation creates turmoil and potential conflict between insurer and insured — and, therefore, opportunities that can sometimes be exploited during settlement negotiations.

    Beldar (d2f94c)

  294. That’s good to know, Beldar, but as we have learned
    since August 2008, the facts are no obstacle, to the type of template, they want to present/

    narciso (0fc95f)

  295. is Mr. Allahpundit really and truly unaware how many times Wall Street Romney has had to explain his whimsical and capricious relationship with the holy and sacred fetuses?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  296. The answer is that this is amateur hour, emblematic of a candidate who has not taken his campaign very seriously throughout.

    Yeah, just a crazy guy who thought that stopping the US from sliding into the toilet was more important that this kind of utter slimeball BS.

    And we wonder why we have such a horrid political class.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  297. We all make judgments about people’s character based on circumstantial information that might not rise to the level of proof. I think that’s especially true in national politics, where most of us never get to meet the candidates and certainly don’t know them well. It makes sense to have a different level of proof in a courtroom vs in life.

    Of course. Did I suggest otherwise? But the existence of an accusation is not circumstantial information. It’s has no evidentiary value at all. It tells us nothing at all about whether the action complained of took place; and there is nothing even slightly wrong with being falsely accused.

    You falsely claimed that “a complaint of inappropriate sexual conduct or behavior is relevant to character”; I cannot let that stand, because it is a perverse standard that is applied too often.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  298. I was once accused of writing an email that I was sure I had not done, and yet when I researched it I found I had done exactly that, and cold sober too.

    People forget things. Usually things that never mattered much to them (like some subordinate making a BS claim and then accepting some token settlement). I’m sure that in a business that has daily terminations (Cain was involved in rebuilding two failing restaurant chains) this kind of thing is of little note. People who are being let go are usually not happy people.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  299. In other less significant news, Mahmoud Abbas, the money man behind the Munich massacre, says he will
    never recognize Israel, as a Jewish state

    allahpundit Allah Pundit
    “I will never recognize the Jewishness of the state, or a ‘Jewish state.'” twurl.nl/vkwpmn
    19 minutes ago

    narciso (0fc95f)

  300. “Skiddle Diddle Dee! Skiddle Diddle Dey!
    It’s just like a holiday.
    Skiddle Diddle Dee! Skiddle Diddle Dey!
    Herman’s on his way!”

    -source, Harvey Comics, ‘Herman & Katnip’ theme, ‘Skiddle Diddle Dee-Skiddle Diddle Dey’
    Words and Music by Hal David and Leon Carr

    http://www.angelfire.com/music3/EB/EccentricBachelor/Cartoon.html

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  301. IMP is off it’s meds again.

    JD (318f81)

  302. what’s a skiddle?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  303. _______________________________________________

    The answer is that this is amateur hour, emblematic of a candidate who has not taken his campaign very seriously throughout.

    Between the way he’s approached one possible skeleton in his closet and his stumbling over the idea of electrifying the fence at the border, Cain appears to be tactically clumsy. His ego — and probably anyone interested in getting into the White House has plenty of exactly that — has blinded him to his vulnerabilities.

    There’s way more hubris and shamelessness among the left — eg, Monica Lewinsky’s sleazy boy toy and “goddamn America” teleprompter guy — but such flaws do affect the right too.

    Cain, Romney and Perry had better realize they’re soon going to be playing in the big leagues, meaning they’re going to have to face ultra-rightists, conservatives, center-rightists, centrists, center-leftists, liberals and ultra-leftists. So if they can’t handle the penny-ante stuff right now, when dealing with only a portion of this nation’s populace, they’re really going to be swamped in upcoming months.

    Mark (411533)

  304. it’s interesting that the dirty socialist propaganda sluts at ProPublica will speak up in defense of a lynched R before Wall Street Romney or Mr. Governor Perry

    is this cowardice or opportunism you think?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  305. happy, I’ll bet you that the Romney or Perry campaigns were the source of this. Dems would have held it for the general election.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  306. well…. hmmm. That’s not very transparent Mr. Kevin whoever was the source of this should explain why they think this is how black conservatives should be treated

    plus I’m just curious

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  307. Milhouse,

    The Politico story’s opening paragraphs:

    During Herman Cain’s tenure as the head of the National Restaurant Association in the 1990s, at least two female employees complained to colleagues and senior association officials about inappropriate behavior by Cain, ultimately leaving their jobs at the trade group, multiple sources confirm to POLITICO.

    The women complained of sexually suggestive behavior by Cain that made them angry and uncomfortable, the sources said, and they signed agreements with the restaurant group that gave them financial payouts to leave the association. The agreements also included language that bars the women from talking about their departures.

    Politico sets forth reasonably specific information and claims it is based on “multiple sources.” Later, the report also claims Politico has confirmed the employees’ identities.

    I agree the claims may not be true or they may make things sound worse than they really are, but Cain’s response suggests some of the story was true. Apparently there were one or more complaints and one or more settlements. Complaints claiming “inappropriate conduct” don’t prove bad character but they can bear on character, at least in the part of the world I live in.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  308. Via Twitter, RCP’s Sean Trende:

    The Cain story is almost certainly from an R campaign. The fact it is being dropped in Oct. suggests there is worse to come.

    Also, Cain’s horrid response to this should *really* worry GOPers.

    Also, five-figure settlement isn’t that interesting. My clients would routinely pay that just to avoid litigation costs.

    Karl (f8f210)

  309. here this is an interesting column from Macaca Post propaganda slut Jen Rubin see how many ironies you can count

    The ombudsman inquired as to what business he had running a sex story without proof of the sex. When Keller lamely answered that this was not the “point of the story,” the ombudsman tartly called this ignoring “the scarlet elephant in the room.”

    McCain looks like he will survive this (his campaign is $2M richer after raising money from an email touting the brush with the Times), but now one wonders if Keller will.

    I counted about 16 in just that one excerpt but rtwt

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  310. The fact it is being dropped in Oct. suggests there is worse to come.

    that part seems dubious to me… Iowa is in just 60 days or so and Mr. Governor Perry’s fundraising is falling off fast in the very present tense and Wall Street Romney has hit a very real ceiling in the number of people what will claim out loud to support him

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  311. feets!

    Point taken. OTOH, 60 days is a long time in politics.

    Karl (f8f210)

  312. it can’t be longer than it feels

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  313. Milhouse,

    I want to clarify my last comment. I agree it’s wrong to publish recklessly, and I also agree publishers have a duty not to rely on gossip and innuendo. But I’m not sure how to draw the line in cases like this. If the facts were the same but Politico named the accusers, wouldn’t that clearly be news?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  314. The Times is not notably more clear:

    In separate interviews, two people who were affiliated with the restaurant group at the time and knew of the complaints said they knew of the second female employee, who had received a payment related to harassment accusations against Mr. Cain during his 1996-99 tenure as president. The two spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid being pulled into the matter publicly.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  315. there’s no excuse whatsoever for not publishing the allegations as they knew and understood them

    without that the story is meaningless to all but the most unthinking

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  316. that’s too many negatives past the event horizon, pikachu,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  317. not publishing the allegations is not the same as not lying Mr. narciso

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  318. happyfeet,

    The way I read narciso’s comment is that we’re not sure what you’re saying because of the double negatives. Are you saying Politico is wrong for reporting the story, Politico is wrong for not reporting the names of the sources, or something else?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  319. Politico is wrong for not publishing the details of what was alleged by the anonymous allegers I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  320. The way they constructed the piece, with mostly anonymous sources, and how they allowed a rebuttal,
    by named sources 10-12 paragraphs later,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  321. without that the story is meaningless to all but the most unthinking

    Thankfully we have a few of those here to explain it.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  322. Complaints claiming “inappropriate conduct” don’t prove bad character but they can bear on character, at least in the part of the world I live in.

    No, they don’t, not in any part of the world. There is nothing even slightly bad about being the subject of a complaint. It simply has no bearing on character. What you say and do bears on your character; what others say or think about you does not.

    The flaw in your thinking is that you treat the existence of a complaint as at least tending to show that there was misconduct. But it doesn’t. Not only is there no reason to suppose that a complaint is true, but even a truthful complaint may be for conduct that isn’t wrong. In the absence of any data we can only assume as a first guess that a complaint is equally likely to be true or false, and that if true it’s equally likely to be substantial or frivolous. So there’s only a 25% chance of it being both true and substantial. In this case we do have some data; we know that the complaints were about someone of previously impeccable character. That increases the likelihood that they were either false or frivolous. Thus the existence of the complaints tells us precisely nothing about Cain’s character.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  323. If the facts were the same but Politico named the accusers, wouldn’t that clearly be news?

    No. Because there’s nothing interesting to be learned from the mere fact that accusations were made. It’s only news if there is some reason to suppose that he may have actually done something wrong.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  324. Cain’s lack of political experience won’t allow him to handle and survive the press over the next year. 2012 = Romney vs. Obama, end of story. Conservatives are once again unrepresented in the POTUS race.

    CrustyB (d4da92)

  325. I understand being concerned about anonymous sources but isn’t that allowed in journalism? Basing a report on anonymous sources certainly strikes me as a good reason to remain skeptical about whether the report is true. But relying on anonymous sources is not, in itself, a violation of a journalist’s code of ethics.

    As litigators say, it goes to weight not admissibility.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  326. It goes to the general credibility of Politico, which has been rife with these sorts of unsourced
    allegations,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  327. anonymous sources are fine anonymous allegations are deeply deeply weird

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  328. Larry Sabato stabbed George Allan in the back in his Senate race and I no longer consider him an objective source or commenter.

    Mike K (4c76c8)

  329. we can’t reveal to you what the dastardly Mr. Cain is alleged to have done but you can imagine it’s pretty bad

    journalism!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  330. Milhouse:

    Because there’s nothing interesting to be learned from the mere fact that accusations were made. It’s only news if there is some reason to suppose that he may have actually done something wrong.

    The media can’t report accusations as fact, but they can report the fact that accusations are made — even if it’s based on anonymous sources. However, most media also recognize a higher duty of care with anonymous sources. (See, for example, the AP’s Statement of News Values and Principles.)

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  331. I can’t find Politico’s standards/code of ethics. If anyone can find it, I’m interested in reading it and (hopefully) learning if this article met those standards.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  332. ==The Cain story is almost certainly from an R campaign. The fact it is being dropped in Oct. suggests there is worse to come==

    I’m not entirely convinced it’s an R plant for a couple of reasons.

    1.Should he get that far, Cain poses a huge threat to Obama in the sense that he could well pick off a few of the black voters Axelrod desperately needs and is counting on. Most blacks will never vote for Perry or Romney. But Cain?–some might.

    2.Also, Cain’s presence as a clear contender on the right obviously and completely mucks up the major leftist campaign narrative that all Rs are racists who hate Obama because he’s black– and that’s the big reason why they want Barry to fail. But, holy moly, Cain is blacker and much more authentically a Black American than The One, so “the narrative” can’t work as long as Cain is viable and on the campaign trail.

    The Dems, therefore, need to get rid of Cain sooner rather than later for both those reasons. They cannot afford to wait or to hold off until the general election, particularly because of the second reason (even if they highly doubt Cain will be the eventual nominee).

    elissa (f79462)

  333. DRJ,

    It’s shocking how many news orgs either have no code or don’t make it public. The WaPo is in the latter category.

    Karl (f8f210)

  334. plus the Dems could be forgiven for seeing Mr. Cain as being he who is angling for a spot on a Wall Street Romney ticket, and they may want to do on him what they tried to do on Mr. Rubio

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  335. It’s more in the Axelrod m.o. unsealed records, timed to eliminate the opposition, Hull and Ryan
    in their respective primaries.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  336. Yes. happyfeet, that VP angle you mention is a third very good reason to suspect the rats.

    elissa (f79462)

  337. “Complaints claiming “inappropriate conduct” don’t prove bad character but they can bear on character, at least in the part of the world I live in.

    No, they don’t, not in any part of the world. There is nothing even slightly bad about being the subject of a complaint. It simply has no bearing on character. What you say and do bears on your character; what others say or think about you does not.

    The flaw in your thinking is that you treat the existence of a complaint as at least tending to show that there was misconduct.”

    I am in agreement with Milhouse here. Who knows how much information Politico gave the Cain campaign to comment on 10 days ago. They did not say. Cain was clear this morning that the investigation the NRA conducted found no misconduct. I am not troubled by the differences between his earlier and later statements – somebody fed him more info.

    Investigation concluded, Nothing there. Get rid of the troublemakers. Settlements to leave.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  338. Beldar – Insurance coverage for harassment these days is most often covered under separate Employment Practices Liability policies and/or D&O policies for Officers and Directors I believe.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  339. Dustin – Your reference is to a thread two weeks later than the thread I pulled your comments from to claim you are not rewriting history?

    Sorry. No go.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 3:29 pm

    Ridiculous goal post shifting from an obvious bad faith debater. You link whatever thread you’re talking about. I probably made the same point there as well. You keep coming up with random and irrelevant stipulations. You asked for an example, and you got one. Once again you are provably wrong and find some irrelevant excuse, and once again it amounts to an irrelevant point anyway. You weren’t really making an argument. Just grasping for straws.

    Dustin – On the contrary, my argument directly addresses your argument that Romney has never had any character building experiences. Your bizarre contention that it is bizarre to mention Romney’s religion in the context of a Mormon Mission and lack of intellectual curiosity about the duties required from the participants in such a mission bely your bias against the man. Contempt before investigation.

    I’ve repeatedly asked you to explain what specifically proves the character building you’re talking about. You bring religion up and just expect me to accept anyone who ever went on this mission trip must have character?

    You say I lack intellectual curiosity, but I repeatedly asked you to explain your case. You actually act as though my not making your case for you proves I’m somehow wrong.

    It is very bizarre to claim Romney has character just because he went to france as a mormon, and refuse to substantiate that at all. I do not care about such things as his faith. You would need to be more specific. Did Romney do something impressive? I think a few months in france while his fellow Americans are fighting in a war is not a major sacrifice, but I’m open to some kind of argument from you. You never made it.

    You are obviously trying to ignore my point. Romney’s flip flop on abortion is particularly unprincipled. He was so passionate in his support for Roe v Wade. He prefaced this view in a stark story of a woman dying. His flip flop was timed in the most cynical manner, and yet again he has a preface regarding the sanctity of human life. He claimed he supported abortion rights for nearly forty years, and then claimed he was strongly pro life. He even defended himself from a charge he was insincere about being pro choice, with great emotion, then showed similar emotion when called insincere on the flop side.

    You completely ignore this. In my opinion, which is obviously well grounded, such a flip flop is alone proof that Romney lacks sufficient character. That’s my argument. You have failed to address it at all. You suggest there’s something about “wine drinkers” that Romney was around in France that shows Romney has character. What? What? What? What?

    I’ve asked you a dozen times to explain. How am I incurious?

    Face it, Daleyrocks: you are a shill.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  340. Daleyrocks a shill?

    Say it ain’t so.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  341. btw, I’m still waiting for you to back up your claim Perry is “gay” used the “needle of sex” on girls, or is chicago level corrupt, Daleyrocks.

    You question my opinions being legitimate. They aren’t even unusual opinions. Everyone is familiar with the argument that Mitt Romney is an unprincipled phony. Daleyrocks’s insistence that I am somehow a horrible person for not accepting his ‘but he’s a mormon’ defense cannot possibly have been intended to persuade anyone.

    Has a single person been convinced by that?

    If someone tried to smear Cain with some sex scandal (that’s how it looks to me) then they are a sleaze. Just as sleazy as Daleyrocks’s hysteria about gardasil being the “needle of sex” and Perry being homosexual. He knows he was wrong, which he basically admitted when he said he was justified because he thought EPWJ said something that was unfair too. The two wrongs makes a right theory.

    I’m sick and tired of this. If a Romney fan has a problem with my opinion, they should just explain their opinion. They should resist the urge to pretend Romney is the victim of oppression every time someone notes they think he’s a flip flopping liberal RINO.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  342. ==Face it, Daleyrocks: you are a shill==

    Is there really much difference between being a shill for a candidate and a vocal/donating supporter of a candidate?

    Dustin supports Perry. daley supports Romney.
    Dustin shills for Perry. daley shills for Romney.

    Soooo—?

    elissa (f79462)

  343. daleyrocks,

    You’re certainly right that mere allegations don’t prove bad conduct or character and I didn’t mean to imply that it does. (Also, I’m glad you raised this again because I missed that part of Milhouse’s comment above.) As I said above, the claims about Cain may not be true or they may make things sound worse than they really are. My point was that inappropriate behavior reflects on character, not that I know inappropriate behavior occurred.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  344. shill is such an ugly word how about advocate or loyalist

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  345. Right on, elissa! I’m sick and tired of shills saying they are sick and tired!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  346. Dustin,

    I wouldnt make judgements on Romney’s character, he’s a fine person.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  347. Soooo—?

    Comment by elissa — 10/31/2011 @ 8:25 pm

    I don’t shill for Perry, Elissa. When I think he’s wrong, I say so freely. I admit I have a strong preference for him, and explain my reasons in good faith, and I admit I have a strong bias against Romney, and freely provide my rationale for that.

    But I’ll put that aside.

    Is there anything wrong with two people, a Perry and Romney supporter each, offering their competing opinions? No. That’s a very good thing.

    What sets me off, and if you look you’ll see this is what sets me off quite a lot, is when someone is not offering their competing opinion, but rather actually trying to make the conversation unpleasant enough that the argument they don’t like is actually eliminated. Just personal attacks, one after another. Off topic demands brought up in thread after thread. Lies.

    And again, I said this was all off topic a while ago, but if someone is going to …misremember t what I said, I’m going to correct them (I even linked the argument he claimed I did not make).

    I’d rather this thread just be about Cain’s issue.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  348. I wouldnt make judgements on Romney’s character, he’s a fine person.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/31/2011 @ 8:31 pm

    Character is the most important issue for me, Eric. I make judgments about the character of every candidate. I personally suspect the vast majority of people running for president are deeply screwed up, and I am suspicious of them all.

    Romney’s flip flops show he does not stand for anything. Some of them touch on issues that Romney characterized as very dear to him. I think he will say absolutely anything, and do absolutely anything, and simply do not trust him.

    I think Romney has many merits. He’s very smart, a very good communicator, and he understands business at a level I don’t and none of his competitors do (a guess). But he lacks the will to stand on principle.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  349. Interesting to see the NYT piling on tonight,

    New questions about the stewardship of his campaign arose on Monday after The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that the campaign may have accepted tens of thousands of dollars in goods and services from a tax-exempt organization founded by Mr. Cain’s chief of staff, Mark Block, an apparent violation of campaign finance laws.

    Documents obtained by the newspaper suggest the group, Prosperity USA, paid for Mr. Cain’s travel expenses to Iowa, Louisiana, Las Vegas and Houston as well as $3,764 for iPads. Federal election and campaign laws prohibit tax-exempt groups from engaging in political activity or contributing to election campaigns. Officials at the campaign and the group did not respond to messages seeking comment.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  350. ixnay on the illingshay!
    but advocacy is A-OK

    elissa (f79462)

  351. I heard rumors that Charles Johnson from LGF sexually harrassed someeone he asked them who’s your blogfather.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  352. A shill ignores contrary evidence, not perceptions mind you, but actual facts, Perry has been disapointing, considering his record, Cain, has as
    well, is a certain yardstick of competence too much
    to ask for, on policy.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  353. Stop thread hijack now!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  354. Stop thread hijack now!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/31/2011 @ 8:42 pm

    I think the thread jack started in comment 128 when you brought up Rick Perry completely out of the blue.

    Would you disagree?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  355. Perry is a good man at heart. He can’t think on his feet, and that last 8min. 23 sec. youtubed speech of his makes me suspect he was flying on eleven different herbs and spices when he gave it, but he’s a character.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  356. “My point was that inappropriate behavior reflects on character, not that I know inappropriate behavior occurred.”

    DRJ – I certainly agree with you.

    Right now, the only person directly involved we have heard from is Herman Cain as far as I am aware. I found nothing he said less than credible and the amounts bandied about for settlement suggest payment for separation rather than compensation for wrongdoing.

    Unless I am wrong, all accounts of wrong are coming second or third hand at a minimum. EPWJ’s hope, however, springs eternal.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  357. Perry is gay??? no way.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  358. anonymous sources are fine anonymous allegations are deeply deeply weird

    Aren’t all media reports that rely solely on anonymous sources essentially making anonymous allegations? I think the issue for journalists is whether there is some confirmation of part of what the anonymous source says, not whether the reporter knows the overall allegations are true.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  359. Stop thread Hijack now!

    Project much?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  360. ixnay on the ay-gay!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  361. we don’t even know what the allegations are is what I mean to say by “anonymous allegations”

    how could we ever know them to be confirmed? Are we to take Politico’s word for it? That’s not a for real source of journalism.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  362. “You question my opinions being legitimate. They aren’t even unusual opinions.”

    Dustin – I don’t question your opinions, you are certainly entitled to them. What I question is when you call opinions facts. Example with respect to Romney:

    “It is simply a fact they did not do this on their own initiative. Huntsman sr is a billionaire. George Romney also worked hard and it is beyond doubt that both Mitt and Jon had a lot of opportunities. They are not self made.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  363. As noted in the comments, RCP’s Sean Trende suggests the story is a GOP rival’s oppo dump, adding “The fact it is being dropped in Oct. suggests there is worse to come.”

    Damn your eyes, Rick Perry!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  364. daleyrocks,

    I find Cain to be credible, too, and I think he’s handled things well tonight after his campaign’s initial wobbly response. But …

    I’m still worried there’s more to this story and I’m also concerned Cain has not authorized serious opposition research on himself, meaning he isn’t ready for a Presidential campaign. Cain is one of the frontrunners now. It’s not enough to say he’s ready for the media “lynching.” He actually has to be ready. In Cain’s favor, however, I’ll be happy if Romney and Perry can handle things this well when it’s their turn.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  365. You know the left use words that they demonize th eright for using.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  366. I heard that Tommy Christopher was just contacted by the “mother” of one of the alleged Cain victims–they talked via skype–he verified her identity–and now he is preparing an article to say that Cain did nothing inappropriate.

    elissa (f79462)

  367. “Ridiculous goal post shifting from an obvious bad faith debater.”

    Dustin – Decafe. The above is exactly what you have done on this thread. Review it.

    I started with this:

    “And I think this is so relevant because it’s simply a fact that Mitt Romney does not have any character. Because he never had any character building experiences.
    Comment by Dustin — 9/28/2011 @ 6:17 pm”

    You claim it was bizarre of me to mention that Mitt went on a 30 month religious mission to France (I won’t mention it was Mormon this time) and seriously doubt that it was character building even though you don’t know sh*t about such mission and don’t want to know sh*t about such missions.

    Then you claim you raised questions during that debate about why he went on an overseas mission when his peers were serving in Vietnam. I say I can’t locate those comments and you point me to something two weeks later. WTF?

    Then you move the goal posts and claim I am ignoring other argument you keep making about Romney”s flip flops. Who cares? I’m focused on the arguments you made about his family and his absence of character building experiences, not some other argument.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  368. “daley supports Romney.”

    elissa – Oh no, my objective was to counter the aggressively dishonest smear campaign against Romney and for Perry conducted here by EPWJ and Dustin. They don’t like Perry being questioned or the flaws in their arguments exposed.

    Too bad.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  369. elissa,

    Heh. Politico could call the victims Veronica and Betty.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  370. elissa – He saw their driver’s licenses.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  371. “It is simply a fact they did not do this on their own initiative. Huntsman sr is a billionaire. George Romney also worked hard and it is beyond doubt that both Mitt and Jon had a lot of opportunities. They are not self made.”

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 8:56 pm /blockquote>

    OK?

    I believe Romney was born the son of a governor and into a very well connected family. I’ve noted many times that it’s impressive what he did, but I’m more impressed with the self made story of Cain or Perry.

    Why in the world are you bringing this up? Oh, that’s right, because you want to change the subject for the 50th time.

    I don’t see anything objectionable about this quote of mine. You never explained any reason I was wrong. Like many times, you demanded I explain how I’m wrong, and I didn’t, so you claimed I was being dishonest but you never actually… proved… a damn… thing…

    I think it’s totally reasonable to say that the Romney family is extremely wealthy and connected, with dozens of politicians and millionaires. Good for them. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I’m more impressed with self made men and women. The Sarah Palins and the Rick Perrys who did not have a famous last name on the buildings of universities or government buildings.

    And yes, when I look to why Romney lacked the character to have a principle on many of the issues he’s flip flopped on, I think it may be because he didn’t have the experiences a man who grew up on a farm and served in the military had. Just speculation, of course.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  372. The left love to repeat lies often.

    Remember these idiots insist Acid Rain would happen in the 1970S

    They are still insisting it will happen in 45 years today.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  373. “You never explained any reason I was wrong.”

    Dustin – Is your statement actually fact or really opinion?

    It is just not possible to have an adult conversation with you on the subject of either Perry or Romney the way it is with other commenters. You lose your sh*t.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  374. Daleyrocks, where’s the link?

    You asked me to reference a specific argument, and when I linked it, you rejected it because it was from the wrong week. I have no idea what makes one thread right and one thread wrong, but I’m curious if you’re ever going to actually show me with thread you were referencing.

    You’re the one making the accusation. Let’s see the link.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  375. Dustin – Is your statement actually fact or really opinion?

    Is it a fact that Mitt Romney came from a well connected family? Of course it is. Are you serious?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  376. Daleyrocks is an romneybot.

    So do the left want to call us white supremacists for opposing Islam?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  377. Still not seeing why Daleyrocks is demanding I defend comments from … I have no idea when … in threads he never links …

    Oh wait, yeah I do. He is angry that I’m commenting here about Cain, and wanted to argue with me, so he picked a fight he lost a month ago.

    I guess they don’t want to talk about the thread topic.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  378. So is it racist to Support Cain?

    So is it racist to oppose islam?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  379. happyfeet:

    how could we ever know them to be confirmed? Are we to take Politico’s word for it? That’s not a for real source of journalism.

    That’s what I’ve been trying to discuss. I don’t think journalistic ethics requires that the report be “true,” only that it is based in part on information that has been confirmed. We agree Politico hasn’t proved what happened, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong to report this. What’s really wrong is that Politico doesn’t track down and report Democratic stories as willingly as it reports Republican stories.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  380. He is angry that I’m commenting here about Cain, and wanted to argue with me, so he picked a fight he lost a month ago.

    The Return of the Victory Mince.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  381. It is just not possible to have an adult conversation with you on the subject of either Perry or Romney the way it is with other commenters. You lose your sh*t.

    he cain’t hold his mud? Dayum!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  382. This

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  383. shillfoolery

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  384. What’s really wrong is that Politico doesn’t track down and report Democratic stories as willingly as it reports Republican stories.

    Comment by DRJ — 10/31/2011 @ 9:26 pm

    The bias is undeniable.

    Personally, I would rather Politico cover stories like this more carefully or not at all. In a way, it’s probably for the best that every chip against every candidate fall as early as possible, though there will be an october surprise no matter.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  385. must stop

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  386. fairly soon

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  387. Disco Stu and his racist spew!

    Icy (c22ba2)

  388. Burma Shave

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  389. @ daleyrocks (#348): Thanks, you’ve taught me something new!

    Beldar (d2f94c)

  390. Are you conservatives holding an ugly baby contest, or what?
    Comment by Larry Reilly — 10/31/2011 @ 3:38 pm

    — You win!

    Icy (c22ba2)

  391. Larry Reilly’s mom is having sex with the Milkman ain’t she?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  392. And here’s what nobody’s talking about today thanks to Politico and Mr. Cain:

    Fast and Furious
    Calls for Holder resignation
    Solyndra
    Obama’s other tanking solar and green companies
    Al Qaeda flag flying in Libya
    the super committee goings on
    trouble at multiple Occupy sites
    Obamacare waivers
    unemployment
    student loan bubble

    Mission accomplished!!

    elissa (f79462)

  393. I just read the entire front page of politico, Elissa.

    It’s amazing how almost none of what you mentioned is on there.

    The mention the Obama’s war efforts like this “Do Republicans now consider it acceptable to accuse a president of politicizing a war?” Seriously. That’s the headline.

    Dozens of links regarding Cain’s ‘scandal’.

    I get that their beat is politics, but your list of issues seem like politics.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  394. OMG, ‘shirley they can’t be serious’. after Gitmo, andAl Qua Qua, and Abu Ghraib, they say that with a straight face, of course, we didn’t intend to deliver a country right into AQ’s hands, as this
    Libyan operation seems to have been,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  395. DRJ, I think you’re still not getting it. The Politico story does not even allege that Cain did anything wrong. What it alleges is that complaints were filed against him. This allegation is now confirmed; complaints were indeed filed against him. But that is not newsworthy information. It does not bear in any way on his character. If he didn’t do anything wrong then he is no worse a person for having had the complaints filed against him than he would be had they not been; and if he did do something wrong then he is still no worse a person for having had the complaints filed against him than he would be had they not been. What would affect his character in the second case would be the misconduct, not the complaints.

    Once again, you seem to be operating as if the existence of a complaint makes it more likely that misconduct has occurred. But it doesn’t. Misconduct happens, and complaints happen, but one does not imply the other. People who misbehave are sometimes complained of and sometimes not; and people whose behaviour is impeccable are also sometimes complained of and sometimes not. The fact that Cain was complained of is therefore of no more legitimate public interest than the fact (if it is one) that he blew his nose.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  396. Hitler was no socialist i mean he killed other socialists……………..so he is Hemran Cain reincarnate.

    /Lefty

    DohBiden (d54602)

  397. Occupy Chicago protesters call for the collapse of the american government.

    Reagan fought against these people.

    So did Mccarthy but that was a witchhunt according to the commies.[I don’t always Agree with Mccarthy.]

    Sorry for the O/T.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  398. “Still not seeing why Daleyrocks is demanding I defend comments from … I have no idea when … in threads he never links …”

    Dustin – The date and timestamp on the comment are not big enough clues for you? Seriously? Grow up.

    “What sets me off, and if you look you’ll see this is what sets me off quite a lot, is when someone is not offering their competing opinion, but rather actually trying to make the conversation unpleasant enough that the argument they don’t like is actually eliminated. Just personal attacks, one after another. Off topic demands brought up in thread after thread. Lies.”

    What seems to set you off is I backed up my comments with your actual quotes and documented you trying to rewrite history. Sorry about that.

    I also blew away the bogus comparisons you were making between Texas spending and Massachusetts spending, apples and oranges, and similar crap like that. So please stop whining about lies.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  399. Still waiting for that link, Daleyrocks.

    I also blew away the bogus comparisons you were making between Texas spending and Massachusetts spending, apples and oranges, and similar crap like that. So please stop whining about lies.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 11:41 pm

    No, you most certainly failed to do that.

    MA’s spending 50% more of every dollar earned in MA than TX is. You have tried some radical excuses for MA.

    What seems to set you off is I backed up my comments with your actual quotes

    ?

    Quotes that I stand behind. And quotes that you bring up for no apparent reason a month later.

    Your self congratulations don’t make you right. You continually lose these exchanges. MA is governed terribly, and is doing worse than TX is. My low opinion of Romney is hardly radical.

    Let’s see your link.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  400. So please stop whining about lies.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/31/2011 @ 11:41 pm

    And yes, Daleyrocks, you are a liar. And trashy. And usually you bring nothing to the argument but insults. When you attempt to argue, you wind up with some ridiculous sophistry such as your triple layer stipulation you deem mandatory for any comparison of MA to TX (even then, TX was 2% better, but it’s hilarious that you would think such a result doesn’t prove your analysis to be unfair).

    I’m still waiting for you to back up your claim that Rick Perry is gay. I’m still waiting for you to back up your hysterics that Perry used the ‘needle of sex’ on girls. I’m still waiting for you to show me “chicago level corrupt’. But that’s not how it works, right? If you can find the slightest reason to disagree with my opinion, even after I’ve shown a reasonable basis for it, that’s reason for you to be outraged and bring it up weeks later in different topics. But if Daleyrocks tells an outright lie, that’s just something he will ignore.

    Because you are a hack.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  401. It still blows my mind that anyone would seriously attempt to convince others that Texas is not actually succeeding relative to other states, especially blue states.

    Blows my mind.

    But why is Daleyrocks even bringing this up in this thread? He says he was triumphant… why would be need to re-litigate it if he felt that way?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  402. let’s be honest about this whole story:

    only racists afraid of a strong black man running for President would bring this sort of “story” forward. that the MFM, composed of only white people, with a few token men and women of color, could engage in such a blatant attempt at lynching in this day and age with no public outcry shows how far this country has to go to achieve true racial equality.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  403. why would be need to re-litigate it if he felt that way?

    because he’s a pi$$ant?

    just guessing. 8)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  404. I liked the Burma Shave bit.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  405. JD

    Leftwing rag spreading rumors that cain made an unwanted sexual advance

    One of these people said that Mr. Cain, during an industry-related conference, asked a female employee of the association to visit his room. The person said that woman declined Mr. Cain’s suggestion, there was no physical contact and Mr. Cain was not intimidating. A second person, a member of the restaurant association’s board, told the Journal that a special committee of the trade group’s board looked into the woman’s complaint.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204394804577010290848096330.html?mod=rss_Politics_And_Policy

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  406. Eeks. Egads. Stone him. Lynch him. What a disgusting thing for him to do. He is evil personified.

    JD (be35b9)

  407. Narcisco – Breitbart will be indicted any time now.

    JD (be35b9)

  408. JD

    So will Murkowski 😉 Let us know how your interview goes ….

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  409. Also,

    Where is that information on his indictment you keep talking about? – oh thats right – just another thing you take out of context because you are a disengenious liar

    People forget that JD about you.

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  410. I think most people might find that CEO’s wanting female employees to come tothier private hotel rooms to not have the character that most people look for in a president

    of course not JD

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  411. Post #405… spot on, elissa!

    goddamnit all, stop your incessant whining, Dusty Springperry!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  412. Milhouse,

    I agree it’s wrong to believe in someone’s guilt based solely on allegations. What I disagree with is that allegations are not newsworthy. Are you saying that because the allegations may not be true, they shouldn’t be published?

    I believe that past conduct and character is relevant when it comes to politics but that isn’t what makes this story newsworthy. Journalistic rules that allow the media to report accusations makes this newsworthy, and my focus has primarily been whether this story complies with those rules.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  413. DRJ

    Wy would someone allow his company to ruin their reputation by settling? also are we supposed to believe this meme that its cheaper? to settle than to defend the company?

    Most companies settle to avoid being found guilty in public thats why

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  414. Milhouse,

    In general, I do think it’s true that filing a complaint makes it more likely misconduct occurred than if no complaint had been filed. The mere fact of filing a complaint doesn’t prove a wrong occurred and it’s not evidence of wrongdoing, but people who believe they’ve been wronged are more likely to complain.

    The problem with claims like these is how easy it is for people to believe they’ve been wronged based on vague conduct.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  415. Milhouse

    He denied, then verified, so he lied

    All in one day

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  416. Ray Donovan, after he had been acquitted of charges,
    that he had been involved with the Mafia, famously
    remarked ‘where do I go, to get my reputation, back’

    narciso (0fc95f)

  417. DRJ

    This went beyond a complaint, there was an investigation, then a resolution.

    Also, the association this morning disavowed Cain, thats not good they will NOT endorse him for president after indicating just last week that they would

    And they have forbidden their members from talking about Cain

    none of these are good for Cain and lend credit to the meme that these were gentle misunderstandings and this is a seasoned CEO who has worked with women in the workplace for over 3 decades, not some country preacher who was thrust into a new situation like he keeps portraying

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  418. narcisco

    If you buy the argument he was falsely acused the NRA this morning just disavowed Cain and forbid their members from talking about him

    These are the people who investigated the claims they also caught the human resources manager lying for Cain so, I think that cain not only is done, but should be shunned

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  419. 405. That’s Ok, shoulder-launched AA missles are finding their way into Donk contractors hands via open borders.

    Louis’ army has discovered the Busted’s a Manchurian on more levels than the wingnuts envisioned.

    Look for a massively redundant effort to alter history: tainted falafel brings down customized Boeing 747 at sea in freakish dynamically-cooled North Atlantic gale. Counter measures are retrieved from the Laurentian abyss.

    Allahu Ahkbar! Gathafi: I strike at thee, ibn Dunham!

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  420. Eric,

    Businesses and their insurance companies often settle claims, even reputation-based claims, when the costs of litigation outweigh the costs of settlement. Unfortunately, even small claims can generate big legal costs.

    Look at how many medical malpractice claims settle, even when doctors think the claims are bogus or will damage their reputations. The high costs of litigation make it very hard for people to litigate based on principle.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  421. Plus, any payments could have been in connection with termination agreements and not settlements. We don’t know enough to say.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  422. The Politico story is officially a net positive for Cain not.

    Even Howard Stern & Robin Quivers both reported the story as an obvious smear against Cain.

    Very important to note Howard & Robin don’t like Cain as a candidate, are opposed to his policies, & mock his answers in the news section daily (parroting mainstream media spin)…but in this case they unequivocally read the Politico story as a political smear job and spoke and that this was unfair to Cain.

    If this resonates as an unfair attack even with those who would never support him, Cain’s going to see a boost in the polls due to the Politico story.

    koam @wittier (b0a81f)

  423. Greece’s government has fallen.

    Italy appears ready to renominate the lire.

    Keep your head on a swivel for falling bodies thru week’s end.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  424. I agree it’s wrong to believe in someone’s guilt based solely on allegations. What I disagree with is that allegations are not newsworthy. Are you saying that because the allegations may not be true, they shouldn’t be published?

    In this case nobody is alleging misconduct. The story alleges that someone filed a complaint.

    In general, I do think it’s true that filing a complaint makes it more likely misconduct occurred than if no complaint had been filed. The mere fact of filing a complaint doesn’t prove a wrong occurred and it’s not evidence of wrongdoing, but people who believe they’ve been wronged are more likely to complain.

    Does the fact that someone believes they’ve been wronged make it more likely that they have been?

    Sexual harassment complaints are such an industry, the standards for filing them are so loose, and the cost of filing them and losing are so tiny, that I think you’re making a fundamental error in giving their mere existence any weight at all. Without knowing who made the complaint (and thus having no way to judge their credibility), and without knowing what the complaint alleged (and thus having no way to know whether the alleged conduct, if it happened, was wrong), the report that complaints were filed is without any useful content whatsoever. It is irrelevant to any judgment of Cain’s character, and it’s perverse to use it to judge his character — tea leaves would be more reliable.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  425. “It still blows my mind that anyone would seriously attempt to convince others that Texas is not actually succeeding relative to other states, especially blue states.”

    Clues to what I am saying – the words I actually write, not the words you rewrite.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  426. DRJ, if you found out that someone did time in the USSR or Red China, what would that do to your assessment of their character? After all, they may have been convicted of an actual crime, that we would recognise as wrong. And if convicted of such a crime, they may have actually done it. And if they did it then they’d be a bad person. But this is a futile path to tread, because there is no relation between someone’s likelihood of having committed a real crime and someone’s having served time in a communist prison. The prisons contained both criminals and heroes, and those walking the streets also contained both criminals and heroes. One must judge such a person’s character the same way whether or not he did time, so the fact that he did time is irrelevant (except that if he did time for some heroic deed then it enhances his character).

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  427. “I’m still waiting for you to back up your claim that Rick Perry is gay.”

    Dustin – See #271. Same point applies to Gardasil.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  428. Thanks for an interesting discussion, Milhouse.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  429. “Wy would someone allow his company to ruin their reputation by settling? also are we supposed to believe this meme that its cheaper? to settle than to defend the company?”

    EPWJ – What exactly was settled? You seem to have special knowledge here? It seems two disgruntled employees were paid to leave the organization. Explain the stain.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  430. “Also, the association this morning disavowed Cain, thats not good they will NOT endorse him for president after indicating just last week that they would

    And they have forbidden their members from talking about Cain”

    EPWJ – Links?

    Also, it is SOP for any organization or business to forbid its members or employees to talk to the press in order to control the message through a designated spokesperson. If you know as much about business as you claim, you should know this.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  431. ______________________________________________

    If there is any doubt about Perry’s heterosexuality, then technically he would be bisexual, not “gay.” Then again, we live in an age of increasing bisexuality — and same-sex marriage — so such a trait may soon be in vogue.

    Actually, I think this in-fighting about Perry, Romney and Cain is dumb, if only because they all have their weaknesses and all show signs of being susceptible to tactical mishaps and ideological squishiness. My only concern about such characteristics is how they will or won’t effect “ABO,” or “anyone but Obama,” in 2012.

    BTW, public schools in California are now required to teach kids — from K through 12 — about famous people who were or are GLBT, and a school in San Diego recently chose two girls (who currently identify as homosexual) to be the homecoming king and queen. So having a gay dude or woman eventually in the White House is the next wonderful, beautiful frontier in the left’s (in Obama’s) concept of an America that is no longer goddamned.

    Mark (411533)

  432. Yes, another Politico link, that doesn’t mean what
    the lead say it does,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  433. Mark – I think the goal is not having a gay dude or woman in the white house, but is rather having nobody care whether there’s a gay dude or woman in the white house.

    The point to the California law about famous people who were GLBT is to provide GLBT youth with role models.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  434. The point to the California law about famous people who were GLBT is to provide GLBT youth with role models.

    Even if it is not true.

    Mike K (4c76c8)

  435. Mike K – I don’t follow.

    There’s a legitimate historical debate about whether people in the pre-modern era would have identified as homosexual in anything comparable to the modern sense. Calling someone in the Renaissance era ‘gay’ is problematic because the word carries with it all sorts of connotations which aren’t appropriate to reflect back into the Renaissance era.

    But it is perfectly clear that, for example, Babur experienced same-sex attraction. (His own writings are quite clear on the subject). And yet it’s impossible in a public grade school to talk about attraction as something independent from self-identification as gay. So any curriculum wanting to talk about it will oversimplify in a way that a historian would find maddening.

    But … 95% of what’s taught in history classes in grade school is an oversimplification. This is no different, and claiming that Babur was gay (or, at least, bisexual) is no worse an oversimplification than saying that the Crusades were about freeing the holy land: there’s a kernel of truth to it, but there’s a lot of nuance and detail stripped out.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  436. _____________________________________________

    rather having nobody care whether there’s a gay dude or woman in the white house.

    Forget “gay.” I think the public should start using the word “bisexual” instead of “gay,” since a lot of non-heterosexual behavior appears to be full of a surprising amount of free will and free choice.

    So how about a president who’s bisexual? Beyond that, how about one who’s into polygamy? In a way, that could describe the odd relationship between Bill and Hillary.

    I think it’s interesting that the new government of Libya is implementing Sharia law, or, in particular, now granting guys the right to have more than one wife.

    Polygamy is the next new frontier—or actually old one, since polygamy has been far more mainstream in parts of the world than the concept of same-sex.

    I have to snicker at the various liberals in countries like Libya and Egypt (or throughout the Western world) who were gunning for the downfall of Gadaffi and Mubarak, if only because they assumed the replacement regimes would be so much better, so much more hip and modern.

    Mark (411533)

  437. Cain is saying today that yesterday was one of his best fundraising days evah.

    Today also, Mahdi ibn Dunham is taking his Jobs initiative to the G20.

    We, the vettors, and the Beltway together may have been sidestepped prior to IA.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  438. That was Richard Falk’s conjecture about Khomeini, instead of learning from his mistake, he became a Israel hating Truther on the UN staff.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  439. Mark: I think there are people who experience only same-sex attraction, people who experience only opposite-sex attraction, and people who experience both; and I really don’t think anybody should care about which of these another person experiences unless they’re trying to get involved with that person.

    I *also* don’t have a problem with polyamory, though, so I may be an extreme outlier on this subject. (I think state recognition of polygamous marriages is difficult because of the financial/economic issues which would arise upon trying to partially dissolve such marriages – it’s hard for me to construct a good set of defaults for such situations. And I’m concerned about non-consensual polygamy and uncertain how a consent rule could be enforced in, say, situations like the Warren Jeffs one).

    As for liberals who wanted Qadaffi and Mubarak to fall: I was one of them. Not because I thought the replacement regimes would be ‘hip and modern’, but because I thought the replacement regimes would be responsive to the desires of the people of Libya and Egypt, who should have the same right to determine the destiny of their countries that we do to determine the destiny of our country.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  440. Wy[sic] would someone allow his company to ruin their reputation by settling?
    — 1) The National Restaurant Association was Herman Cain’s company? 2) Their reputation was ruined by this?

    This went beyond a complaint, there was an investigation, then a resolution.
    — Dots, meet your connector. Yes, Eric, it looks worse BECAUSE they did NOT sweep it under the rug. Right again!

    Also, the association this morning disavowed Cain
    — That’s a lie. They did NOT “disavow” him.
    they will NOT endorse him for president after indicating just last week that they would
    — That’s a lie. They NEVER said they would endorse him.
    And they have forbidden their members from talking about Cain
    — That’s a lie. Maybe you should actually READ the stories you link to. Comprehension is a marvelous thing.
    this is a seasoned CEO who has worked with women in the workplace for over 3 decades, not some country preacher who was thrust into a new situation like he keeps portraying
    — He portrays himself as someone that was unprepared to handle the business world? Not. Ya know, if you’re just gonna spew totally unsubstantiated ad homs like this, you might as well change your name to Larry Reilly right now.

    I think that cain not only is done, but should be shunned
    — Have you found a cave for him to live in yet?

    Icy (c22ba2)

  441. You wanted Mubarak and Qaddaffi to fall because you do not care if the replacement is worse.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  442. 47. About a month back the National Bank of Egypt had 2 months of reserves. Tourism, the primary source of income and foreign currency other than foreign charity is extinct.

    Wunner how things are going now?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  443. _______________________________________________

    and people who experience both;

    aphrael, they apparently are more common than what I previously assumed to be true, and that definitely has changed my POV on the politics of “GLBT.” I previously had a bit more sympathy for such people, based on the assumption they were forced into types of behavior they couldn’t change or modify. IOW, I realize the savvy of traditional social-cultural conservatism was more spot on than even I gave it credit for being a few years ago.

    I’ve often pointed to the example of British actor Rupert Everett, one of the few people in the entertainment industry who has publicly declared himself as gay. Yet he has also commented on the various women he has had serious, legitimate affairs with.

    Another reason why I give more credit to the conservative concept of behavior being more malleable and discretionary than what most liberals want society to buy into:

    Yahoo.com, October 14: A new study reveals that women’s sexual preferences tend to be a gray area (yep, identity confusion wasn’t just for those college dorm days). In fact, researchers at Boise State University found that in a group of heterosexual women, 60 percent were physically interested in other women, 45 percent made out with a woman in the past, and 50 percent had fantasies about the same sex.

    In addition, sexuality gets more, not less, fluid with time — yet more proof that experimentation isn’t just for college. In a study conducted by Diamond, the older a woman was, the more likely she was to describe her sexual preference as “unlabeled”. “We have this idea that sexuality gets clearer and more defined as time goes on,” says [Lisa] Diamond [from the University of Utah]. “We consider that a sign of maturity to figure out who you are. I’ve seen it’s really the opposite.”

    ^ At the very least, when sexuality is being discussed in public, more and more folks should start using the word “bisexual” instead of “gay” or “lesbian.” Otherwise, I now realize just how laughable it is for anyone to say “Rick Perry is gay,” or “Hillary Clinton is a lesbian,” and then be totally puzzled when the truth actually is more ambiguous or contradictory.

    Mark (411533)

  444. Cain should be shunned but John Edwards shouldn’t

    Please die EPWJ.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  445. ==Wy would someone allow his company to ruin their reputation by settling? also are we supposed to believe this meme that its cheaper? to settle than to defend the company?
    Most companies settle to avoid being found guilty in public thats why==

    Eric–My comment here is not meant to address the specific Cain situation–whatever it turns out to be. So please don’t go off all half-cocked again. This comment is directed specifically at your comment. Your comment is BS. Because every assumption in it is BS.

    You’ve happened to tread into a topic on which I am very conversant and have personal experience. I’ve spent more than a little time in corporate America and spent more than a few years in a department that was co-located, co-headed and co-ordinated with the company’s extensive law department. I interacted with it every single working day (and often weekends). I participated in making decisions on behalf of the company. I can say with absolute certainty that your stated beliefs, views and assertions of why and what companies do, and do not do, to protect reputations, remove further trouble, resolve issues quietly, honor contracts, and preserve corporate treasure are flawed flawed flawed.

    elissa (94a9da)

  446. Mark: speaking as someone who has only experiened same-sex attraction, I would agree that bisexuals are more common than anyone expects … but I would disagree that there’s any reason to be unsympathetic; I just don’t agree that acting on same-sex attraction is wrong.

    Doing so behind the back of your spouse? Totally contemptible. But that’s a different issue.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  447. DohBiden, there’s something to that.

    I’m saying that I value the right of the people of those countries to choose their government – and to have a government which doesn’t oppress them, which both the Qadaffi and Mubarak governments clearly did – more than I care about the risk that they will choose poorly from my perspective.

    They may choose poorly. But if so, it’s their choice; I don’t have the right to make the choice for them.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  448. ____________________________________________

    But that’s a different issue

    But male nature is generally non-monogamous, if not promiscuous. So if the pro-GLBT crowd (virtually all liberal) believes humans can’t modify their behavior in one area of sexuality, but should be able to modify or control it elsewhere, then they truly are fools if they can’t accept the concept of polygamy and are bothered by infidelity. Of course, when it comes to the latter, many people (particularly women—such as in Hollywood) are the essence of “limousine liberals.”

    Mark (411533)

  449. Most of the people I’m familiar with in the pro-GLBT crowd are open to polyamory.

    Infidelity is another problem altogether – the issue there is, however, the lying, not the sex.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  450. Well Scalia, is tactfully refusing to say ‘I told you’ in light of New Hampshire’s acceptance of civil unions between siblings, there are few tracks
    on the slippery slope left.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  451. Gary, at 639:

    The Greek government has not fallen.

    It may be very close to it, but it hasn’t happened yet.

    The Prime Minister wants to hold a referendum on the bailout package. This has caused much internal dissension within the governing party, and has forced a confidence vote.

    The confidence vote is expected on Friday.

    See here for details.

    (If you don’t pay the WSJ, here’s the capsule summary):

    “The party is in major turmoil,” a senior socialist party official said. “I can’t exclude more desertions today, which will lead to early elections.”
    Mr. Papandreou’s decision was announced just days after European leaders in Brussels agreed on a set of measures to reduce Greece’s debt burden and beef-up the firepower of a rescue fund to make sure the continent can prop up other troubled nations in the currency area. If the Greek government survives a confidence vote expected Friday, the referendum on the aid deal is expected to take place in January.

    ——–

    The situation in Europe is pretty bad. But fear-mongering and exaggeration isn’t helpful.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  452. And I like how you so called right wingers[Looking at you EPWJ] repeat the lie about Palin seeing Russia from her backporch.

    If leftys were college educated they would shun Bill Clinton and shun Keynesian Economics.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  453. Translation of aphrael’s screed-How dare you speak the truth.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  454. If leftys were college educated they would shun Bill Clinton and shun Keynesian Economics.

    That really doesn’t follow. A very large percentage of college economics programs rely on keynesian economics as the basis for their macroeconomics teaching.

    You can, of course, argue that they’re wrong to do so. But it seems silly to claim that if people of a particular political persuasion [x] went to college, they would shun economic theory [y], which is taught in many colleges as one of the founding theories of modern economic thought.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  455. DohBiden: “how dare you” seems like a poor translation of what I wrote. I can’t really identify any words which express that sentiment.

    Might you be kind enough to point me at the ones you think express it?

    aphrael (5d993c)

  456. There has been a general consensus for centuries if not millenia, that there was a certain standard way
    of organizing society, in an attempt to clarify some injustices, we risk throwing out ‘the baby with the bathwater’

    narciso (0fc95f)

  457. The situation in Europe is pretty bad. But fear-mongering and exaggeration isn’t helpful.
    Comment by aphrael — 11/1/2011 @ 9:46 am

    — Ya hear that, Gulrud? Shaddup!

    Icy (c22ba2)

  458. Not so much ‘shut up’ as ‘get your facts right’. :)

    aphrael (5d993c)

  459. Yes you boys are correct, I was early. Pasok has lost members of its coalition and its majority, one that would hold a referendum on the deal bound to fail.

    So we still wait, will the deal be blown or the government fall, and then the deal be renegotiated, perhaps?

    A one-year bond issued by the Greek goverment now, given the above, pays 100%, if anyone is willing to buy.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  460. The obots are finally waking up to the fact he doesn’t care about them just his paycheck.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  461. More fearmongering, this time CNN:

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/01/markets/thebuzz/index.htm?iid=Lead

    The point is there is no happy ending and we are days not weeks from a hard default following MF Global’s demise.

    That will mean credit collapse over the weeks that follow.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  462. The euro turns out to have been a very, very bad idea.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  463. Sorry for the O/T-But Clinton dropping the ball on the 93 WTC bombing lead to the 9/11 Terror attacks 8 years later.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  464. Comment number 405 by elissa — 10/31/2011 @ 9:48 pm

    And here’s what nobody’s talking about today thanks to Politico and Mr. Cain:

    [10 things mentioned.]

    You can add the gesture about doing something about the generic drug shortage problem. (Not that it would get that much attention anyway)

    This is a problem which is getting worse with time – a problem caused by a completely broken druig regulatory system – a problem not addressed at all during the entire history of this Administration till this time (but I guess they’ve been looking at what petitions get signed at whitehouse.gov)

    he only just now endorsed some bills.

    This is a gesture that everybody knows is not enough. (while he declares Congress won’t act, so I will)

    This is the same way he handled the student loan bubble.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  465. See:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/31/health/policy/medicine-shortages-addressed-in-obama-executive-order.html?scp=3&sq=generic%20drugs&st=cse

    Obama Tries to Speed Response to Shortages in Vital Medicines

    By Gardiner Harris

    October 31, 2011

    “The president’s order is a modest effort that, while possibly helpful, is unlikely to resolve the problem soon or entirely. Administration officials characterized it as one step in a long and complicated effort. Indeed, Mr. Obama eschewed more ambitious proposals — like government drug stockpiling or manufacturing — that would have injected the government more directly into the nation’s drug market and cost more but that might have been more effective.”

    (which by the way illustrates also exactly what’s wrong with the budget process. Stockpiling is maybe not the best idea but it’s at least one idea.)

    NMore from the story:

    Still, Mr. Obama’s order and others he has issued recently reflect his belief in the power of government to improve people’s lives. By contrast, top Republican legislators and presidential candidates have almost uniformly argued that resolving the nation’s economic and other problems depends mostly on scaling back or ending government regulations to allow the free market to function more effectively. No regulatory agency touches people’s lives more thoroughly than the F.D.A., which regulates 25 cents of every dollar spent by consumers.

    Along with Mr. Obama’s order, on Monday the administration will release two government reports that mostly blame a dysfunctional marketplace for drug shortages, directly contradicting assertions by some commentators that government rules are to blame. The analyses found that 74 percent of the medicines in short supply in 2010 were sterile injectibles, the kind of drugs delivered in hospitals or clinics to treat cancer or anesthetize patients before surgery.

    The economic and technical hurdles to participating in this market have made it exceedingly inflexible, the analyses found. Just five large hospital buying groups purchase nearly 90 percent of the needed medicines, and only seven companies manufacture the vast majority of supply. In most cases, one company produces at least 90 percent of a drug’s supply, and crucial ingredients — many of them made in mammoth plants in India and China — are often difficult to find, verify and approve, so years are needed to create new capacity. While demand has grown steadily in recent years, supply capacity has remained largely unchanged.

    Of course it’s regulation. Including price regulation, which is what made such drugs not just expensive, but something altogether unavailable.

    One problem is that Medicare sets a maximum orice. Well, that makes sense. Except when there are spot shortages. If it was something else you’d pay more temporarily. But Medicare doesn’t recognize such situations. And if the purchaser’s own money was at stake in some way, they won’t overpay.

    Regulation and supervision is such that it costs more and more money to manufacture long apporoved drugs.

    We also get some companies being bought and then the new owners who have a de facto, although not legal, monopoly – they then go about jacking up the price – not to infinity but to point where it still wouldn’t pay for a new manufacturer to get into the market.

    The problem is that FDA regulation only concerns itseelf with how things should NOT be done, but it doesn’t concern itself with how things are actually going to happen. And it never has.

    Now, not only has it made the pipeline for new research 30 years long, it’s actually taking old drugs off the market – even safety regulation, maybe combined with the price regulation, is too much.

    That’s under our current system. Obamacare of course did not deal with this and would only make things worse.

    An earlier story:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/health/policy/20drug.html?sq=generic%20drugs&st=nyt&scp=17&pagewanted=all

    A crucial problem is disconnection between the free market and required government regulation. Prices for many older medicines are low until the drugs are in short supply; then prices soar. But these higher prices do little to encourage more supply, because it can be difficult and expensive to overcome the technical and regulatory hurdles. And if supplies return to normal, prices plunge.

    New York Times August 25, 2011 editorial:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/opinion/the-shortage-of-vital-drugs.html?scp=3&sq=generic+drugs&st=nyt

    For the longer term, bipartisan bills in Congress would require drug makers to give the F.D.A. six months’ warning of problems that might disrupt supplies. For that to work, the penalties for noncompliance would need to be stiff.

    Has anybody thought that a too strong penalty might encourage even more companies to get out of that business? Remember, we actually need these drugs to be manufactured – and not by liars in China.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  466. From the Wall Street Journal: There was no settlement of the sexual harassment claim. ((that’s why Cain didn’t know about it)

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  467. 483. Just as we suspected. So Cain even saying anything other than Politico’s insinuation of a “sexual harassment charge” was unjust and in error was a mistake, and one they intended him to make.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  468. Link, Sammy.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  469. Let me explain, because this was missed by practically everyone.

    The Wall Street Journal reported this morning:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204394804577010290848096330.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    W.W. “Biff” Naylor, a California restaurant owner and restaurant association board member, cast doubt on the idea of a settlement by the trade group. Mr. Naylor said he was unaware during Mr. Cain’s three-year tenure at the association of any sexual allegations concerning Mr. Cain. Mr. Naylor said he also was unaware of any harassment-related settlement going before the executive board, on which he also served.

    “There is no way we would have paid a settlement without this going before the executive board,” said Mr. Naylor, who as chairman hired Mr. Cain as the trade group’s president in 1996.

    Now this does not mean that they didn’t pay her.

    But from the side of the restaurant association, this was not treated as a settlement of the sexual harassment claim. (The settlement papers themselves wouldn’t say anything about what this was for. They are always global settlemnents of all claims and they really can’t be anything else)

    The Wall Street Journal indicated that she (at lesst one of them) had some other claim, too:

    Two people with knowledge of the situation told The Wall Street Journal that the trade group came to a financial agreement with at least one female employee in the late 1990s after she alleged an inappropriate advance by Mr. Cain.

    One of these people said that Mr. Cain, during an industry-related conference, asked a female employee of the association to visit his room. The person said that woman declined Mr. Cain’s suggestion, there was no physical contact and Mr. Cain was not intimidating. A second person, a member of the restaurant association’s board, told the Journal that a special committee of the trade group’s board looked into the woman’s complaint.

    Both people said the investigation resulted in a financial arrangement. It was unclear whether the agreement was a settlement tied to the woman’s complaint or was a more routine severance payment linked to an employee’s departure.

    Now go back to the New York Times article refernced in Update 7 above:

    He said he believed the allegation of harassment was not the only issue involved in the woman’s termination package.

    And furthermore, also, Herman Cain was not involved:

    Herman Cain stated Monday (Reported various places. I am not sure where he said this, but I think it was Bloomberg TV, if I read the New York Post right.)

    It couldn’t have been very much money, or I would have had to know about it.

    I was falsely accused of sexual harassment, and when the charges were brought, as the leader of the organization, I recused myself and allowed my general counsel and my human resource officer to deal with the situation and it was concluded after a thorough investigation that it had no basis.

    This may have been an EEOC investigation, not an internal investigation. A special committee of the board was appointed. It may simply have referred the complaint to the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission.

    Presumably the report came back negative or inconclusive or that the accusation did not fit the definition of sexual harassment and that was it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  470. ==You can add the gesture about doing something about the generic drug shortage problem.==

    Sammy–interesting you mention that. And thanks for posting the NYT editorial which I had not seen and all the additional info about the reasons. I only recently became aware of this generic drug shortage thing because of (of all things) our pet. The cat has been on permanent medication that we got in generic form from the vet clinic. It is a medicine also prescribed for humans. The cat is small, the dosage is small and the cost was about $11. every four months. Two weeks ago the vet said they could no longer get the product to dispense themselves after trying all their sources. She contacted a local Walgreens for me and they did not have it–or the non generic version either. Finally after several calls to pharmacies the vet located it (in non generic) at a specialty pharmacy twenty miles away which filled the prescription for me for almost $60. They are not sure how much longer it will be available from their source either.

    elissa (94a9da)

  471. “A very large percentage of college economics programs rely on keynesian economics as the basis for their macroeconomics teaching.”

    aphrael – You hit the nail on the head by suggesting people make an argument that those colleges are wrong to teach debunked Keynesian economics. The problem is overcoming the ideology of the professors.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  472. Daleyrocks – the thing is, whether or not it has been debunked is still under dispute. To the extent that its persistence is ideological, sure, lets overcome the ideology; but lets not replace it with an equally strong unfounded ideology on the other side.

    I would prefer to teach both the austrian and the keynesian theories and then try to figure out when and under which circumstances each model is more useful than the other.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  473. Milhouse #440:

    In this case nobody is alleging misconduct. The story alleges that someone filed a complaint.

    The original Politico article states “[t]he women complained of sexually suggestive behavior by Cain that made them angry and uncomfortable.” I’m not saying the report is true or that, even if it’s true, the alleged behavior was illegal. But help me understand why you believe “sexually suggestive behavior” is not an allegation of misconduct?

    Does the fact that someone believes they’ve been wronged make it more likely that they have been?

    It could, but that’s not what I said above. I said that people who believe they’ve been wronged are more likely to complain than people who don’t believe they’ve been wronged.

    Sexual harassment complaints are such an industry, the standards for filing them are so loose, and the cost of filing them and losing are so tiny, that I think you’re making a fundamental error in giving their mere existence any weight at all. W

    I think there are aspects of this we agree on. For instance, at comment 429 I said: “The problem with claims like these is how easy it is for people to believe they’ve been wronged based on vague conduct.” I think that’s related to what you’re saying.

    In addition, my guess is that some people feel the same about various laws and claims. People who favor legalizing marijuana probably think it’s wrong to prosecute someone for possessing, using or selling marijuana. People who believe it’s wrong to make drivers wear seat belts may well become indignant over being cited for not wearing theirs. But the fact that particular laws or rules may seem unjust in the way they are implemented, prosecuted, or viewed is not a reasonable basis to act like the rule or law doesn’t exist.

    Similarly, I understand if you feel sexual harassment laws shouldn’t exist — I might be receptive to that argument when it comes to most “hostile workplace” claims — but as long as they do, I don’t understand expecting the media and the public to ignore such claims. Instead, I think it’s better to be skeptical of these and all claims that haven’t been proven in a court of law.

    Milhouse #442:

    DRJ, if you found out that someone did time in the USSR or Red China, what would that do to your assessment of their character?

    You’ve picked the wrong person to engage if you’re really comparing the American legal system to the justice systems of the Soviet Union or China. I know people, and perhaps you do, too, who have been subjected to those systems and I’m not interested in wasting my time on that comparison.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  474. “Daleyrocks – the thing is, whether or not it has been debunked is still under dispute.”

    aphrael – Of course you are correct. I am persuaded it has been debunked, but there are bitter clingers who believe otherwise. I am not a fan of the Austrian School. It has spawned way too many loons.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  475. Let us return to a time in the past, where an accusation is made by a known accuser, and the alleged violation is a bit more specific than “inappropriate behavior”.
    Just what specific behavior was considered “inappropriate”, and why?

    This has all of the probity of a Salem Witch Trial.

    AD-RtR/OS! (6cdad1)

  476. AD–there is no room for logic and caution here. There is a re-election to be won!! The ends justify the means.

    elissa (94a9da)

  477. I agree with you that we need more facts about the claims, AD. In fact, Dustin and I were among the few who agreed with Aaron’s post regarding why we needed more details in the Lara Logan case. I’m not arguing we shouldn’t have more details, only that the lack of details doesn’t prevent this from being newsworthy. Frankly, I think Politico should report what it has, but I also favor limiting the media’s confidentiality privilege so I may not be the best person to decide that issue.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  478. Some ends are just too costly.
    But, that being the case, does The Lightworker really want to set us down on that Path to Perdition?

    AD-RtR/OS! (6cdad1)

  479. I agree in part.
    The media, if it wishes to use anonymous sources must accept that they are a highly visible target about which any claim, no matter how far-fetched, is now fair-game.

    What pseudo dirt can we come up with against the members of Journolist, for example?
    Does Martin Bashir still (as JD would say) bugger goats? And if not, when did he stop?
    Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    AD-RtR/OS! (6cdad1)

  480. Lara Logan case . . . Herman Cain case

    Apple, meet orange

    Icy (ee6749)

  481. Comment by Milhouse — 11/1/2011 @ 7:22 am

    DRJ, if you found out that someone did time in the USSR or Red China, what would that do to your assessment of their character? After all, they may have been convicted of an actual crime, that we would recognise as wrong. And if convicted of such a crime, they may have actually done it. And if they did it then they’d be a bad person. But this is a futile path to tread, because there is no relation between someone’s likelihood of having committed a real crime and someone’s having served time in a communist prison. The prisons contained both criminals and heroes, and those walking the streets also contained both criminals and heroes.

    In 1980, when Fidel Castro (in an attempt, ultimately mostly successful) to get the United States to guard the exits to his Communist prison, released many ordinary criminals from prison – they were told anybody that wanted to leave Cuba could go, they can, and if not they’ll stay in that bad prison – they were even forced onto the boats – it turned out that many of them had very good cases for political asylum.

    It turned out that whenever a high ranking member, in good standing, of the government or connected with the government or whatever, had a child that had a relationship with someone that they didn’t want:

    A) If the child was a daughter and the unfavored suitor a boy, the man was charged with and conmvicted of rape.

    B) If the child was a son, and the father didn’t like the girlfriend, she was charged with and convicted of prostitution.

    There were other cases where people had stolen food from the government in such circumstances that it was not regarded as a crime by the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  482. The real criminals from Cuba, at least the incorrigible ones, didn’t confess anything. The only screening was that they were asked.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  483. How is it different, Icy? I would understand if Lara Logan and the complainants in the Cain case were reluctant to have the details of their cases made public, but doesn’t the public have an interest in learning those details so we can better judge the validity and impact of the reports?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  484. 496., 498. Is it not Politico that needs the questions answered to escape inconsequence?

    Me, I’m sleazier than Cain. He seems clean enough, and steady enough thru this one dilemma. Not quite a Rubio over WaPo defeat but close enough.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  485. gary gulrud,

    I’m not sure I understand your comment but I think you’re saying that Politico needs to substantiate its report for the benefit of its reputation. I suppose that’s true from our perspective, but my guess is Politico doesn’t really care about its reputation with conservatives.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  486. I’m surprised the teachers union haven’t rallied against Cain and called him aminstrel kind of guy.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  487. doh

    I’m still alive but check in tomorrow :)

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  488. Pro-tip – Always trust comments from EPWJ.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  489. 504. Yes, and Cain is obviously being cut a break as ‘political ingenue’ not merely by his true believers but by those for whom he is a mere empty square, a safety play.

    If someone were to catch fire they’ll happily move on, but his attraction is he’s not a politician let alone Not-Romney. They’ve moved on from this skirmish.

    He’s an oddball, a disgruntled female or two of some rank, named him among other issues in conference with their superiors. They parted ways.

    Big deal. If not gospel, this sketch is close enough for government work in Amerikkka.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  490. One of the women have asked to have the confidentiality agreement waived so she can rebutt Cain?

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  491. DRJ, I’m not going to rehash the Lara Logan argument I had with Aaron, other than to say that the public having an interest (as you phrased it) and the public’s “right to know” (as Aaron put it in the L.L. case) are two different things.

    Icy (ee6749)

  492. Meanwhile… back at the ranch, the Perry video has gone viral and some Republican strategists are saying that the governor needs to address it… the sooner, the better.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  493. Okay, but I think one similarity is the competing interests between privacy interests and a desire for more details in a case with political or national impact.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  494. Look how people accept the leftwing media (e.g., Jonathan Martin) defining the agenda, saying that there are allegations being made that Cain invited some woman up to his hotel room, but then in the next breath saying but we [Politico] won’t go into detail.

    It is trite, it’s defamation of character and it shows the lengths that some in the media will go to trash a black conservative.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  495. Chris Chrstie is a krook?

    Project much leftys?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  496. Stashiu expalin why it was moderated?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  497. Comment by DohBiden — 11/1/2011 @ 4:13 pm

    Chris Chrstie is a krook?

    No, John Corzine. Well maybe not a crook, but somebody at his firm was maybe. What Corzine did is something else.

    He was not on Wall Street in 2007/2008 at that time being Governor of New Jersey. So, Joe Nocera of the New york Times says, he didn’t learn anything.

    What Corxine’s accused of that’s bad is that he had a severance agreement, that said that if he was dismissed for any reason, he’d get abig severance payment…. This takes accounmt of a merger.

    Now, he managed his firm into bankruptcy. What he did was he took huge bets on the Europoean sovereign debt market. And his firm wass leveraged 40 to 1 – that means he had marginn of 97 1/2 percent. Ordinary people can’t go above 50 percent I think. I don’t know.

    He bet on that because he thought his political experience told him that Europe would never allow these countries to default. And it technically hasn’t so far. The Greek deal was designed to avoid a legal default that would trigger the Collaterized debt obligations – it was a negotiated “voluntary” writing off of debt by only some creditors – mainly banks, who in turn would be bailed out by the ECB. the whole thing wouild collapse but only after a while. The terms that were imposed on Greece were probably mathematically imposisble to meet. But in the meantime the people of Greece didn’t like it., So the Prime Minister said now he’ll call a referendum.

    Anyway before that all happened the market value of Corzine’s bets dropped even though there hjad not been any default..

    So Corzine was planning to sell the company. because if he sold the company, he’d collect on his severance payment but if it went bankrupt he wouldn’t. If he sold the company he’d collect – even if he sold it at a share price of 1/8 of what it used to be.

    But he couldn’t sell it becausze money turned out to be missing. It is suspected that customers’ money was used to try to hold on to the bets longer – until the value of the instruments he had bought went up.

    Of course maybe this is just one of your reversals of names.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  498. Ah’m from a little, tiny town… a town so tiny that each of us had our own tomcat.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  499. Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/1/2011 @ 3:08 pm

    One of the women have asked to have the confidentiality agreement waived so she can rebutt Cain?

    So says her lawyer. The agreement is not with Herman Cain but with the restaurant association.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  500. The Spelling Mafia strikes again!

    The name of bthe human resouirces administrator is Mary Ose, not to be confused with the other Mary Ose from California. But the New York Post spelled her name Mary Use.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  501. Doh Biden,

    No idea… why is that important to you? I usually make a notation so people know if I’ve done something that messes up the comment order. Sometimes it’s clear why it went into moderation, either unintentionally or otherwise. Other times I can figure it out. Haven’t really looked at that one, it was in moderation less than 15 minutes, and right now I’m only here when I can make the time… literally taking it out of my sleep time. So, I’m going to sleep and I’ll be back whenever.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  502. Does anyone know what that Perry video was all about? What could the man have been thinking?!?!

    He is fortunate that people have been distracted by this phony Cain issue. I just don’t understand how Perry – or his advisers – could possibly think that this would be acceptable.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  503. I didn’t think the Perry video was really very remarkable it was just a pedestrian rubber chicken talky talk

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  504. You are one of the few who feel that way, happyfeet… at least that I’ve heard from.

    Our local talk radio guys (Armstrong and Getty) who had been fairly positive about Perry’s candidacy (at least until Perry started his nosedive right after entering the race) think that it’s just about a wrap of his candidacy.

    Their audience is overwhelmingly conservative and I heard nothing positive in their calls, emails and/or tweets.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  505. I wonder if others have noted any notice taken or feedback, whether positive or negative?

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  506. maybe I should watch it again

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  507. Dr. K’s giving him a pass, says he looked a little “lubricated”…

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  508. ok I watched it again it doesn’t alarm me really to be honest he seems kind of tired

    I liked the part about the horrific debt

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  509. Specially in light of this tidbit;

    The lawyer for one of the Cain accusers, Joel P. Bennett, just told the panel on Anderson Cooper’s CNN show that it was “his understanding” that the allegation was “leaked to Politico from a Board member of the National Restaurant Association”. Could it have been the former President of the NRA who took over after Cain left, who is a Romney supporter?

    narciso (0fc95f)

  510. narcisco

    well, so these women may have a huge suit against Cain and the NRA

    and Romney isnt involved – he doesn’t play that way

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  511. Romney’s that guy that funneled a million shady dollars into his campaign – he’d have no problem launching a disgustingly racist attack on Mr. Cain if he thought it would help him achieve his goal of someday sitting in a cornerless office looking all spiffy

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  512. Sorry, happyfeet. You’ll have to look elsewhere for the sort of base and tasteless candidate you dream of.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  513. Happy

    come on now buddy lets slow down Cains problems are Cains problems,

    Afterall Cain had no problem wrecking Perry with accusations of racism and is using the race card to defend his actions that he is responsible for

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  514. It really seemed like more of an Axelrod move, but
    the circumstantial evidence is intriguing,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  515. narcisco

    oh I’m not discounting it but Romney would have played it through santorum or bachmann, letting them out Cain in a debate where it would ave been devasting

    Oh I think the guys done,

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  516. how will you spin this one Karl?
    Cain on China

    They’ve indicated that they’re trying to develop nuclear capability and they want to develop more aircraft carriers like we have.

    lolololllol!

    wheeler's cat (e07004)

  517. Perry should defend Mr. Cain cause of he knows what it’s like when the media macacas you.

    I think it’s been very cowardly for Perry to be so quiet like he doesn’t have an opinion. His silence makes me think he’s not ready for prime time. Not if it involves moral leadership. He’s about as for reals christian as a nasty ass zit I think and his silence is the same as condoning politico’s sleazy tactics.

    Romney’s silence however is in perfect keeping with his opportunistic do anything say anything character.

    Santorum’s criticism is exactly what you’d expect from an 80s reject with a nasty nasty google problem. Does anyone else think he looks like a constipated Adam Sandler from The Wedding Singer? I do.

    Condoleeza Rice is still awesome applesauce though.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  518. Happy

    Perry said we shouldnt judge or make any assumptions, until facts are in and he hadn’t seen any

    compare contrast tat with Hermans treatment of Perry

    what was Rick supposed to say?

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  519. narciso–Actually, it feels almost too coincidental to me. I’m not ready to let Axelrod off the hook just yet. This kind of political wet work often passes steathily through multiple hands to hide its origins. How nifty for them if the O campaign can manage to tarnish both Cain and Mitt in one sleazy operation.

    elissa (94a9da)

  520. who does Cain remind you of, feets?
    the Gitmo gaffe, not knowing what right of return was, and now not knowing that China has had nuclear capability for decades…..
    could it be….
    a black, male, bald Sarah Palin?

    hahahaha

    wheeler's cat (e07004)

  521. I still lean toward Axelrod, because I think of Mitt like Winthorpe in ‘Trading Places’ not that clever.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  522. we can judge Politico’s sleazy reporting Mr. Johnson

    in fact we have a moral imperative to do so I think

    for America

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  523. Happy

    As soon as Cain went above 12% everyone, Me, Ace, Fox News, CNN got information on Cain.

    Me I delete the stuff as I do on everyone – yes even Sarah. Ace confirmed he got it so did Fox – its been circulating

    Cain knows it, only Politico decided to be the one to out the guy

    politics is sleazy but just this year……

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  524. elissa

    its not been a big secret out there, this was coming

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  525. its officially over – large payouts to Cain accuser

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  526. oh dear

    what if we had a presidential election and no credible R showed up?

    there’s no what if about it

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  527. here’s the NYT story

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  528. Annnd more

    Herman Cain’s campaign reversed itself Tuesday and acknowledged that Cain profited when his campaign did business with his motivational speaking company

    http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/cain-profited-from-campaign-1215080.html

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  529. he republican circular firing squad of 2012

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  530. oooof!

    Campaign finance experts say it is not unusual — nor is it illegal — for candidates to do business with their own companies. But political analysts say the fact that money from campaign contributors wound up in Cain’s personal company doesn’t look good to voters.

    “You’re using campaign funds for private purposes,” said Bob Grafstein, political science professor at the University of Georgia. “Your campaign should not be for personal enrichment.”

    ohhh snap!

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  531. Is that it, this is what all this folderall was about, near beer.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  532. Has even one of epwj’s assertions, in front of the facts, proven to be true?

    JD (bad6e1)

  533. narcisco

    no, that was considered the milder of the two – the other one wants a piece of Cain, also he lied – all day about it

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  534. which makes the initial non-denial here less excusable.

    What are they supposed to deny?

    I think you should rename this the obligatory epwj makes an arse of himself post.

    Comment by JD — 10/30/2011 @ 9:46 pm

    best… comment… evah….

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  535. “As soon as Cain went above 12% everyone, Me, Ace, Fox News, CNN got information on Cain.”

    EPWJ – You get the info from your Chinese landlord through that North Korean cutout, right?

    Dude, you are so tapped in.

    That’s exactly how you heard about the Sarah Palin/Glenn Rice hook up in 2001, when Sarah was still Mayor of Wasilla and nobody cared who she was, right?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  536. also he lied – all day about it

    no it sounds like his statements today were about the chick where he made the comment about her height

    the NYT says he hasn’t addressed anything about the the year’s pay chick yet (link at #549)

    The precise nature of the encounters between Mr. Cain and the two women remained murky. He has said over the past two days that he joked with one of the women about her height, but he has not addressed what happened with the first woman — the one who received the $35,000 payment, according to the people who knew of it — or even acknowledged there was an incident with her. Her friends and colleagues said she had told them at the time that she was upset about the situation.

    I misunderstood this at first

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  537. As soon as Cain went above 12% everyone, Me, Ace, Fox News, CNN got information on Cain.

    Me I delete the stuff as I do on everyone – yes even Sarah. Ace confirmed he got it so did Fox – its been circulating

    Cain knows it, only Politico decided to be the one to out the guy

    politics is sleazy but just this year……

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/1/2011 @ 7:14 pm

    Eric has super secret all knowing sources ya’ll. Next he will divulge Von Braun’s secret rocket fuel. Brietbart to be indicted for national security breach any minute.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  538. Eric, you are a certifiable loon. Now go get on your imaginary high horse, put on your tinfoil ten gallon hat, and please ride off into the sunset of your wild ass dreams.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  539. Me, I knew about Perry’s rock issue for years but I didn’t think it was a problem so I didn’t tell anybody about it.

    This game is easy to play!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  540. life is a rock mr. daley

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  541. I am going to be out of town counting Jews in Iran next week. I don’t think it’s going to take as long as I’ve been told by some people to expect.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  542. Easier yet is to count the Christian Churches or Synagogues that now exist in most of the Middle East countries.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  543. Scuzzefavor is a true conservative. She is so much of a conservative that she endorses libturd candidates.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  544. Fire doesn’t melt steel. Damn, making crap up issssss easy isn’t it?

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  545. Mr. Feets – Drop the rock.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  546. Does anyone care what that sideshow clown Ace thinks about anything?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  547. I can smell what the rock is cooking Mr. daley.

    Can you?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  548. smells like… pancakes!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  549. I predicted Stanford was going to beat USC in triple overtime last weekend. I just didn’t tell anybody before the game.

    Prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  550. Mr. Feets – My rock is cooking pork roast wif apricot sauce.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  551. your rock kicks my rock’s ass I think my rock might be walking over to Habit Burger

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  552. We need Kristen Gillibrand to weigh in. Honestly I’m glad she cares about the military but she might believe the lies against Cain.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  553. And Happyfeet will lay the peoples elbow down on the stomach of big government.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  554. Sorry for the O/T-But Clinton dropping the ball on the 93 WTC bombing lead to the 9/11 Terror attacks 8 years later.

    And the FBI (under Bush Sr) dropping the ball on R Meir Kahane’s assassination led directly to the WTC bombing.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  555. “… Isn’t it bliss; Don’t you approve;
    One who keeps tearing around and one who can’t move;
    But where are the clowns; Send in the clowns…”

    source- ‘Send In The Clowns,’ lyrics by Stephen Sondheim

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  556. Well, I can always, always count on DCSCA to provide unintentional (from his perspective) humor…about himself. Honestly, it is like he doesn’t even read his own posts.

    Sad little clown, he is.

    Simon Jester (492257)

  557. Bush Sr. was an idiot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  558. By the wya i do not want to return to the Far-left Status Quo

    DohBiden (d54602)

  559. ________________________________________

    Not because I thought the replacement regimes would be ‘hip and modern’, but because I thought the replacement regimes would be responsive to the desires of the people of Libya and Egypt

    But you must be both puzzled and disgusted by the variety of liberals throughout the Western world who suddenly become so easygoing about or very, very tolerant of reactionary religiosity — and any political dynamic incubated by it — if it involves Third-World or emerging-world societies and Islam.

    With the modern industrialized world (or mainly Europe and North America) becoming so culturally leftwing over the past several decades — and since nature often is into yin and yang — it seems somehow fitting that an opposite extreme of that is manifesting throughout the Middle East and small immigrant enclaves of Europe.

    The foolish left of the West and the Sharia-embracing populace of Islam deserve one another. They’re like two pieces of a rather deranged puzzle.

    Most of the people I’m familiar with in the pro-GLBT crowd are open to polyamory.

    aphrael, they also need to admit there is quite a bit of free will and free choice in how people behave sexually, whether it involves hetero, bi- or homosexual activity. It certainly is contradictory when those in the GLBT group happily embrace the acronym of “LGBT” — with an emphasis on the “B” — on one hand, while on the other hand arguing that homosexuality is almost always not a matter of choice (a bad one, at that), that it’s even analogous to race or ethnicity, or to a blind or paraplegic person.

    Mark (411533)

  560. Right wing reactionaries=Evil and redundant

    Islamocommunist reactionary-Not so bad.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  561. Transnational progressivism, it’s a thing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  562. The leftys are theocrat aplogists.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  563. Well Mark, one considers the old man Quradawi, the other imam behind the Sadat assasination, from his
    home in Doha, he preached supports for Shaheeds , in Iraq, but not in his neighborhood, yet that didn’t lose him the friendship of London Mayor
    Livingstone, a leading voice behind the Egyptian
    Revolution, and also the Libyan one, having declared
    a fatwa against Gathafi, months before his demise.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  564. “I don’t think this question matters that much anymore because Romney’s been very clear that he’s against Obamacare and he’s going to repeal it. So I for a second don’t worry about whether he’s going to shy away from repealing the president’s health care law.”

    First Christie, and now Ryan. All Romney needs is Mitch Daniels’s blessing, and he’ll have the whole trifecta. This really complicates things for the stalwart anti-Romneys. Groups unaffiliated with the GOP, like FreedomWorks will still be there to bash him from the entitlements/health care angle. But as Romney gets closer to the finish line, there will likely be a lot more Republicans willing to overlook his past if it’s the only path to repealing ObamaCare.”

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/11/01/paul-ryan-okay-romneycare/

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  565. Wall Street Romney will repeal Obamacare right after he builds a fence on the border I bet

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  566. Hate Street Happy will find that groove right after he wolfs down a stack of tasty vegan sh*tcakes.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  567. Anyone who criticizes Romney hates america or something.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  568. Lots of spam today.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  569. I put ACE in the same category as Charlie the Goat effer Johnson. DRAMA QUEENS.

    gus (36e9a7)

  570. Wow the romneybots sure love their authotorianism.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  571. Did I spell that right?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  572. How many days until we pick a candidate?

    Will the bandwidth survive?

    How many times am I going to be wished to die? 😉

    (Doh, you are currently tied with my teen at 2 this week :) )

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  573. oh let me weigh in on missspellings = I’m an expert

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  574. Look if your a femanazi you are no conservative.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  575. Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/1/2011 @ 7:36 pm

    Herman Cain’s campaign reversed itself Tuesday and acknowledged that Cain profited when his campaign did business with his motivational speaking company

    http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/cain-profited-from-campaign-1215080.html

    Upon reading the story it develops:

    Not only was that NOT a violation of campaign rules, it would have been a violation of campaign rules NOT to make money on it.

    The Cain campaign paid $50,937 to his company, called T.H.E. New Voice Inc., for copies of two pamphlets, called “Leadership Requires Leadership” and “Common Sense,” campaign officials said. The pamphlets have been passed out to people during Cain’s campaign.

    Campaign officials said that while federal regulations generally prohibit a candidate from making personal profits from political contributions, the law allows a candidate to make purchases from his or her own company.

    Candidates for federal office are not barred from using campaign funds to pay their own companies for goods and services, said Rick Thompson, former executive director of the Georgia ethics commission and a consultant on campaign finance compliance to such clients as Gov. Nathan Deal.

    The law requires that the campaign pay market rates. The candidate’s company cannot simply hand over the product at free or reduced rates, since that would constitute an improper corporate gift, Thompson said.

    The campaign did not purchase copies of Cain’s autobiography “This is Herman Cain” from his motivational speaking company, but rather from the publisher and retailers. These purchases were reported to the publisher as “author purchases” and consequently were not credited toward his royalty payments, campaign officials said.

    It’s understandable why the Cain campaign at first denied he made any money from it because most of that involved a middleman or perhaps because…wait a second, the article doesn’t explain how Herman Cain or his company made any money if no royalties were collected. Does Herman Cain also own the publisher?

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  576. Sleeza Morecokeski, now there’s a Senator!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  577. I’m really not that surprised considering the attitude that some took to a certain candidate’s
    campaign disbursements, fanned by Sorosmedia, that turned out to be totally bogus, but like ‘Emily
    Litella,’ never mind on to the next misunderstanding,

    narciso (0fc95f)

  578. Sammy,

    I think its not as much money in profit to be a deliberate attempt at graft, Cain just needs to end this practice and refund any “profits” back either to the donors or to his campaign

    Looking at some internal polls and speaking in Kentucky and IL yesterday to several hundred people I see that Texas is being blamed for illegal immigration throughout the country, anyting I said any explanation was not accepted – people – at least in these crowds are using the “Browns” as ey put it for all their economic ills.

    Cain looks strong and will perhaps run away with this thing. America is much more sleazy than it was a decade or 2 ago

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  579. It’s not easy being attacked by the media and overall I’m impressed with Cain’s response. But this excerpt from an article in The Hill makes me very curious and worried for Cain:

    Attorney Joel Bennett told CBS’s “The Early Show” on Wednesday that his client hasn’t spoken publicly because of the confidentiality agreement, but that Cain’s comments might have cleared a path.
    ***
    According to Bennett, one of the stipulations of the confidentiality agreement was that neither party could make disparaging remarks about the other. Bennett said Cain violated that agreement on Fox News on Monday when he said that he had been told that the accuser’s performance in the workplace “was not up to par.”

    I’ve bolded the part I find curious, especially the phrase “neither party.” Initial speculation was that this involved one or more agreements between an employee and her employer, the National Restaurant Association. Several people mentioned that Cain probably wasn’t involved in the investigation — because he was the accused — and that he wouldn’t be a party to any settlement because he wasn’t the employer.

    But Bennett’s statement suggests Cain was a party to the agreement. If that’s true (and it’s a big “if”), then it will be much harder for Cain to claim he didn’t know the details of the allegations or the settlement. It should also make him much more careful about what he says, since a careless statement could jeopardize the confidentiality agreement. (It would be interesting to know if there is a contractual remedy for a breach, or if applicable law allows a party to reopen the settlement in the event of a confidentiality breach.) For Cain’s sake, I hope this was a misstatement by Bennett.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  580. DRJ

    Apparently a witness to the events is coming forward who is saying that if the women talk – its over for Cain

    Its beginning to look like the Nikki Haley thing

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  581. Cain is being sniped, from behind the confidentiality agreement, He’s having to parry back from half remembered details, and minutae provided by third parties, one would think leaking
    any part of this document’s contents, would be a breach, but that’s a rhetorical point.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  582. “According to Bennett, one of the stipulations of the confidentiality agreement was that neither party could make disparaging remarks about the other.”

    DRJ – To me it’s an interesting question if Bennett is breaching legal ethics by talking about the content of the agreement, especially since he claimed not to recall its details and did not have a copy of it. He was waiting for his client to send him a copy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  583. “Its beginning to look like the Nikki Haley thing”

    Something with no credible witnesses that went nowhere?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  584. “I think its not as much money in profit to be a deliberate attempt at graft”

    Of course. How are Rick Perry’s book sales, btw?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  585. daleyrocks,

    I don’t know what parties to confidentiality agreements or their lawyers are allowed to say. I believe it would depend on the terms of the agreement and the provisions of whatever jurisdiction’s laws are applicable to disputes under the terms of the agreement. The association’s national office is located in Washington, DC, but there are also offices in Chicago and apparently all 50 states, so I don’t know what jurisdiction’s laws they may have selected.

    But my focus is on whether Cain was a party to the settlement. I could see reasons why he might be a party and why he might not but, if he was a party, I am more surprised at the way he’s responded since this story broke.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  586. “But my focus is on whether Cain was a party to the settlement.”

    DRJ – I understand your focus. My point is Bennett is clearly the agent for one party to the settlement regardless of whether Cain is a party to the agreement. Seems like a no brainer to me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  587. Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/2/2011 @ 9:18 am

    How many days until we pick a candidate?

    The Iowa caucus (which for Republicans is only a straw poll and not a caucus, where people change heir candidate as they seek at least 15% in a precinct) is scheduled for Tuesday, January 3, 2012 (not Monday)

    About 9 weeks from now. 62 days.

    It is, in most cases, a secret ballot with no pre-printed names and people vote after listening to speeches. The picking of delegates to district conventions, who in turn select delegates to the Iowa state convention who in turn select the actual national convention delegates, is a separate process, and no results are kept by the Republicans as to how that relates to Presidential preference. All we hear is what is, in effect, a first ballot. They also write or vote on political platforms or issues.

    Anybody born before November 8, 1994 will be able and anybody else can observe as long as they don’t say anything. They need to be eligible to vote in Iowa. People can change party registration on the spot.

    because the voting does not effect what candidate will get Iowa’s convention votes, New Hampshire still considers itself first. At least the republicans. The Democrats count New Hampshire as the first primary.

    The New Hampshire primary is scheduled for Tuesday, January 10, 2012. It might have moved up earlier but Nevada caved in as to the date of its caucuses, against at least the initial wishes of the Romney campaign. People not registered in any party can vote in either party’s primary.

    The Nevada Republican Party decided on Saturday, October 22, 2011 to push back the date of its caucuses to Saturday Feb. 4, after initially scheduling them for Saturday January 14. that was only 4 days after New Hampshire and by New Hampshire law the presidential primary has to be at least 7 days ahead of any other primary.

    That’s why it’s now in January instead of March, and they were prepared to move into 2011 if necessary. Nobody messes with New Hampshire.

    South Carolina will vote on Saturday, Jan. 21, followed by Florida on Saturday Jan. 28. Florida is doing this without permission and will lose half its delegates. (in 2008 Michigan and Florida were supposed to lose all their Democratic delegates.)

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  588. Most of us are only able to conjecture about what may have occurred, what type of agreement may have been reached and what confidentiality conditions were agreed to in this particular case. But I can say this with certainty: Just as Obama’s actions forever altered the reality of bondholders’ rights, the publicity around this Cain spectacle will change forever the way companies, lawyers and yes, individuals view the trustworthiness of settlements that rely on mutual confidentiality and were specifically agreed to on that basis. Very troubling in my opinion.

    elissa (79adbf)

  589. According to Bennett, one of the stipulations of the confidentiality agreement was that neither party could make disparaging remarks about the other. Bennett said Cain violated that agreement on Fox News on Monday when he said that he had been told that the accuser’s performance in the workplace “was not up to par.”

    Which one was he talking about?

    This is like those puzzles you sometimes see in the backs of crossword puzzle books.

    As near as I can tell:

    A) One of the accusers may have initially been fired and the lawsuit started about that, but there is no lawsuit for an at-will employee unless there’s an illegitimate reason for firing her.

    B) The other one had some kind of a bad personal situation at work that did not involve Herman Cain and quit.

    C) One maybe dredged up some minor interactions with Herman Cain which became sexual harassment.

    D) One totally invented stories about Herman Cain.

    E) One collected $35,000, which was a year’s salary.

    F) One got 3-6 months severance pay.

    G) The one who did not get $35,000 is an Ivy League graduate who lives in the Washington D.C. area.

    H) The one who did not get $35,000 is the one to whom Herman Cain talked to about her height.

    I) Herman Cain claimed, or seemed to claim, that he only remembered one case. Or did he?

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  590. Comment by elissa — 11/2/2011 @ 11:38 am

    the publicity around this Cain spectacle will change forever the way companies, lawyers and yes, individuals view the trustworthiness of settlements that rely on mutual confidentiality and were specifically agreed to on that basis.

    They still will work, so long as one of the parties does not go into politics or needs to be confirmed by the Senate. Or becomes a public figure in some other way.

    Very troubling in my opinion.

    No, good. Secrecy agreements aren’t good. Or if you think they have good aspects, they have bad ones as well. It’s better if they lived without them.

    If done, they should have reasonably short time limits.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  591. “No, good. Secrecy agreements aren’t good. Or if you think they have good aspects, they have bad ones as well. It’s better if they lived without them.”

    Sammy – Whether you consider them good or bad I think all depends on the hat you are wearing at the time – employee, employer, third party, etc.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  592. Meanwhile, diddlers play, as Rome burns.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  593. Sammy, you may not like them and I may not approve of them, but confidentiality agreements and settlements contingent upon confidentiality have been part of the legal lexicon and toolkit and have been successfully used for decades for private conflict resolution. Often times the courts are not an optimal venue for either party. As long as they exist, are legal, and are mutually agreed to, the settlements need to be pretty much sacrosanct. Period. These are legal documents, not vague negotiations later subject to situational ethics. At least that’s how I see it.

    elissa (79adbf)

  594. I love the romneyphiles accusing Cain of flip-flopping.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  595. It seems to me that a confidentiality agreement only applies to the parties that agree to it. Unless the actions that gave rise to the agreement were secret and never discussed with anyone’s co-workers, friends or families prior to the agreement — a dubious assumption — then an agreement by itself wouldn’t prevent non-parties from talking about what they know. Others may choose to keep quiet but they don’t have any contractual obligation to do so.

    In addition, that’s one reason why someone in Cain’s position might be made a party to any settlement agreement, either by signing the agreement itself or an ancillary agreement. The point would be to make him subject to a confidentiality clause, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  596. So let me get this straight all black conservative men are sex addicts according to the left………….and we engage in racial stereotypes?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  597. New thread!

    Now with more inappropriate conduct! Allegedly!

    Karl (f8195e)

  598. DRJ–

    This is interesting. I think we are coming from different directions but maybe reaching similar conclusions. If that type of agreement has holes such as: None of the parties are contractually allowed to disclose the events or settlement arrangements, but if somebody’s secretary knows something, or if I’ve told my mother stuff, or if after a few wine coolers I blab to my neighbor and then THEY as non parties can safely talk to the National Enquirer or Politico, (even thought they first heard it from me– who was supposed to keep it confidential) then why in heck would any competent lawyer in good faith ever negotiate such a deal? Or why would anybody on either side of a dispute ever sign such a paper or pay/receive money towards a private settlement if it can be so easily breached or circumvented or jeopardized?

    For additional clarity take Herman Cain out of it for a minute and view it through the lens of, say, Tiger Woods’ divorce. His lawyers have certainly found a way to make sure none of his or Elin’s friends or family speak out even though they certainly know a lot!

    elissa (79adbf)

  599. Tifoa sexually harrassed Bieber.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  600. elissa,

    Most confidentiality clauses I’ve seen involved attempts to protect trade secrets so, thankfully, I don’t have experience with situations like this. These are gossip-y situations and people talk about these things. However, in cases like this, I assume attorneys use confidentiality clauses in the hope it will help curb future gossip by preventing the people with direct knowledge from talking.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  601. There is no oil in the Gulf of mexico anymore morons.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  602. “if somebody’s secretary knows something, or if I’ve told my mother stuff, or if after a few wine coolers I blab to my neighbor and then THEY as non parties can safely talk to the National Enquirer or Politico, (even thought they first heard it from me– who was supposed to keep it confidential) then why in heck would any competent lawyer in good faith ever negotiate such a deal?”

    elissa – I’ve never seen one with a clause written in that manner, e.g. the actions of third parties voiding the agreement. The ones I have negotiated on behalf of an employer bound all employees since they were executed by an officer of corporation on behalf of that corporation. We would can anybody who talked about them, but the number of people involved was typically very, very small.

    The concern was not necessarily trade secrets, but compensation, since the situation of each employee was likely to be different and you wanted the ability to tailor each agreement to the individual situation without getting sued up the wazoo.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  603. We would can anybody who talked about them, but the number of people involved was typically very, very small

    I think that’s a good point. You try to keep things confidential only if you can reasonably expect to keep them confidential because you have the ability to bind most/all of the people who know. My gut feeling is that too many people would hear or know about something like this to keep it confidential.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  604. “My gut feeling is that too many people would hear or know about something like this to keep it confidential.”

    DRJ – If there’s money or benefits on the table that can disappear or get reduced, the people directly involved have a very strong incentive to stay quiet. If you have talkative support people involved in the preparation of documents, that’s another problem.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  605. I will vote for Obama if Cain wins-Perrytards

    Ok can the perrybots stop pretending to be an ally of america?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  606. Trying to compare this Cain harassment of women to the Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas is very weak. In the Clarence Thomas case there was no settlement. And why did the National Restaurant Association settle with one of the two women that complained to the extent of (as reported) $35,000.00; because there was something to the complaint. These large corporations, not unlike insurance companies, do not pay a dime unless there is reason for the settlement.

    Just remember folks. There’s no refund on your current contributions to the Cain campaign; which may go away quickly.

    AdrianS (accc54)

  607. Perry will probably end up wishing this never happened – it’s gonna suck all the oxygen out of the room and he really really needs a lot of oxygen to reboot his campaign cause he’s not polling very well among the children of the corn

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  608. And why did the National Restaurant Association settle with one of the two women that complained to the extent of (as reported) $35,000.00; because there was something to the complaint. These large corporations, not unlike insurance companies, do not pay a dime unless there is reason for the settlement.

    And you know this how?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  609. Secracy agreements have an important exception: They do not apply if somebody is responding to a subpoena, although I suspect Herman Cain might be unaware of that.

    Cain could easily get – at this stage in his campaign – some House Committee to launch an investigation of all this.

    If what John Edwards did is to be construed as campaign spending, surely the leaking of this surely which much have involved spending money is a form of campaign spending – maybe an independent expenditure not co-ordinated with any campaign – but more important campaign spending than most other things.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  610. Corrections to my comment number 619 at 11/2/2011 @ 11:32 am

    Anybody born before November 8, 1994 will be able [to participate in the Iowa caucuses]

    That should be November 7th, 1994. The election next year will be on November 6. People turn 18 on the day before their birthday.

    The year 2012 is a leap year and the November election will be 2 days earlier on the calendar than it is in 2011.

    South Carolina will vote on Saturday, Jan. 21, followed by Florida on Saturday Jan. 28.

    That should be Tuesday, January 31. I was confused.

    I don’t understand why they didn’t wait until February 1, when they would get twice the number of delegates as on January 31. All right, February 1 is a Wednesday, but still….

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  611. March 6, 1999 National Journal article (updated in some way October 20, 2011

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/from-pizza-to-k-street-to-president–19990306

    From Pizza to K Street to President?
    By Louis Jacobson


    Most presidential candidates spend a term or two as a Governor or a U.S. Senator before daring to launch a White House bid. Herman Cain wants to jump from his current job as the head of a Washington trade association straight to President of the United States.

    This fall, Cain closes out his third and final term as president and CEO of the National Restaurant Association. That position followed a rags-to-riches rise in the business world, highlighted by his role in the rescue of the floundering Godfather’s Pizza chain.

    Now Cain is poised to become only the second African- American to seek the GOP presidential nomination. After contemplating a run for years, Cain told National Journal, he will decide by November whether to enter the race. He has established the Omaha, Neb.-based Citizens for Cain Exploratory Committee.

    Cain said that he did not take the restaurant association job to further his presidential ambitions. But, Cain added, he ”would rely very heavily on my friends in the restaurant industry” if he decided to run. ”This job has given me the opportunity to meet a lot of people who are not only restaurateurs but citizens.”
    …..

    To understate the case, the little-known Cain is a long shot, at best. Yet Cain’s friends say that his grasp of policy issues and powerful oratory make him someone to watch. ”Herman is viewed in the business community and by Republicans on the Hill as a dynamo,” said a lobbyist who has worked closely with the restaurant group.

    ……

    Most association presidents are either veteran lobbyists or retired lawmakers who live in Washington. By contrast, Cain lives in Omaha, and spends only about a third of his time in the nation’s capital. Mostly he’s on the road, meeting local restaurant owners or delivering motivational speeches.

    Cain said his proudest achievements were raising the restaurant association’s membership from 33,000 companies to 37,000 (though he acknowledges that his initial goal was 45,000) and boosting the group’s ranking from 24th to 15th in Fortune magazine’s 1998 list of the most influential lobbying groups. Some critics contend that the association has moved too far to the right by attacking proposed minimum-wage increases and child labor statutes. But GOP lobbyists retort that the group’s clout remains high on Capitol Hill.

    Observers say Cain’s charisma is his main strength. ”When I’ve attended industry meetings, people have turned to me and said, ‘I’d support him in a second’ ” for President, said Robin Lee Allen, senior editor of Nation’s Restaurant News, a New York City-based trade publication.

    If he runs, Cain says he will advocate market-oriented reforms of health care and Social Security, plus a ”simpler and fairer” tax system. Each of these issues ranks high on the GOP’s economic agenda. But unlike many in his party, Cain opposes school vouchers for private schools and backs efforts only to ”revisit,” not eliminate, affirmative action. He declined to give his position on abortion rights.

    In the primaries, Cain’s moderate social stances could pose problems. But his personal wealth and links to the association’s grass-roots money could help, a lobbyist said. Cain once showed up at a restaurant group board meeting, took the microphone, and challenged the 70-or-so board members to match his on-the-spot political donation. ”People responded,” the lobbyist recalled, ”but the room was ashen-faced for a moment.”

    The long odds against his presidential bid lead some analysts to maintain that Cain could leverage his free media coverage during the campaign into another office. Cain conceded that he would welcome a vice-presidential nomination or a Cabinet appointment if the GOP nominee wins in 2000. But for now, Cain emphasized that he’s focusing only on a presidential bid.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  612. For what it is worth:

    You know late 1998, early 1999 – that was when the Clinton people were interested in finding out about any kind of sexual impropriety involving prominent Republicans.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)


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