Patterico's Pontifications

10/5/2011

Romney vs Not Romney: Inside the Numbers

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 4:00 am

[Posted by Karl]

The latest WaPo/ABC News poll showing Rick Perry slumping and Herman Cain booming while Mitt Romney’s standing does not move tells the overall story.  But the internals of that polling and statewide polls from PPP showing a Cain lead highlight how the Romney vs Not Romney dynamic plays out in the historical context of GOP politics.

On paper, Rick Perry would be the likely GOP nominee, by the combination of resume, regionalism and ideology.  However, the WaPo poll reveals that Cain’s gain comes at Perry’s expense in the South, while Romney dominates outside the South.  Perry’s slump is also steep among those aligned with the tea party movement.  Finding Cain leading in North Carolina, Nebraska, and West Virginia, PPP’s Tom Jensen observes:

The thing fueling Cain’s lead in all of these states is strong support from the furthest right segment of the Republican electorate.  Cain is at 35% with ‘very conservative’ voters and has a 14 point lead over Perry with them in North Carolina. In Nebraska he’s at 36% with them, putting him up 22 points over Gingrich and Perry.  And in West Virginia he gets 25% with them, giving him a 9 point edge on Gingrich and Perry.

Although the conventional wisdom is to attribute Perry’s slide to his debate performances, these polls should suggest his problem runs deeper than that.  I would suggest it is not performance, but content that is driving Southerners and conservatives away from Perry.  The debates are just one avenue through which these groups are learning that Perry is perhaps not as conservative as they thought on some issues, and has defended his position on those issues in ways that insult conservatives.  Thus, the base of the base is now gravitating toward Cain.

However, Jensen also has the broader context:

This most conservative group of Republican voters has been shopping for a candidate all year.  They’ve gone from Huckabee to Trump back to Huckabee to Bachmann to Perry and now to Cain. I would expect their support for Cain to be pretty temporary. One thing that’s been very clear through all these twists and turns though- they’re not going to support Romney.

How well Cain holds up to the level of scrutiny given to a top-tier candidate remains to be seen.  I would still say the same about Perry, who has been getting that scrutiny with much less time in the race than Cain.  Unsurprisingly, Allahpundit is pessimistic about both leading flavors of Not Romney:

Cain doesn’t have the cash or the name recognition to go the distance with Romney. All the good news for him lately will help solve the latter problem, but probably not the former. Perry has the money and the high profile needed, but I can’t tell right now if voters who have soured on him will give him a second chance.

You know who doesn’t have to worry about money? Mitt Romney, who will be picking up a bunch of Gov. Chris Christie’s rejected suitors, including Republican uber-fund-raiser (not to mention part-time Joan Rivers impersonator) Georgette Mosbacher and billionaire John Catsimatidis.  Not Romney will need a big wallet.

As for whether voters will give Perry a second look, no one can say for sure.  If Cain holds up under the usual vetting, Perry may not get the opportunity.  But the WaPo poll notes that 37% definitely would not vote for Romney now, down from 57% four years ago — which suggests many voters do not write candidates off entirely.  Moreover, Romney is still attacking Perry, which may tell you he thinks Perry remains a viable Not Romney threat.  Mitt watched John McCain go from next-in-line to dragging his own luggage through the airport to beating Romney in 2008, so who can blame him for being thorough?

Instant update: I think Allahpundit, writing about the new CBS poll, has a sharp take on Perry’s position. Also, pollster Mark Blumenthal notes that in the CBS poll, only 19% have made up their mind on which candidate to support.

–Karl

141 Responses to “Romney vs Not Romney: Inside the Numbers”

  1. “One thing that’s been very clear through all these twists and turns though- they’re not going to support Romney.”

    Good, I’m glad that ‘is very clear’.

    And based on the flaccid, cynical performance of the GOP in Congress you may extend the metaphor.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  2. Right as rain about not supporting Romney. Won’t even vote for him in the general, either, if he happens to be nominated. Enough already!

    cedarhill (d5030d)

  3. It would be quite a shame if purists rejected Perry, who is with the right 90% of the time, and as a result wound up with Romney, who isn’t with us ever unless it’s easy, at which point it didn’t really help us much.

    Don’t reject a 90% ally for a 50% ally out of purity. There are other reasons to reject Perry, and I know many (including myself) are annoyed with his couple of foolish comments and his squishiness on immigration. I think Cain would make a good nominee, actually, but he too is prone to saying annoying things and he’s not experienced at cutting government spending like Perry is.

    It’s up to Perry to show folks he’s ready for this, though.

    Money is a big factor, but didn’t Romney lose despite having a massive money advantage in 2008?

    I think Perry has to hit Romney hard, and then hit him harder, and then hit him even harder. The right loves a fighter.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  4. Whomever becomes the Not Obama candidate will garner 99.9% of support of GOP voters.

    It really is that simple.

    I will not vote for Romney in my primary. However, I would vote for him a thousand times and drag myself to the polls on hands and knees if necessary in the general against BHO.

    Ed from SFV (4b05ec)

  5. This all opens the door for she-who-must-not-be-named, who has a ready-made army of campaigners and deep, solid support.

    John Hitchcock (3dac1a)

  6. So a Mormon to carry the flag huh?

    My Bowels Hurt (8d652e)

  7. It should also be obvious to the GOP that they will not have Urkel as an opponent come Nov. 2012.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  8. I keep hearing rumors to that effect, gary, but I hope for the GOP’s sake those rumors turn out to be false.

    Lotta talk about Hill 2012 (which would be much steeper to climb than Barry 2.0) but I’m not buying it just yet.

    John Hitchcock (3dac1a)

  9. [Cain examined]

    Personally, Cains 9-9-9 plan needs to explain what he’s cutting as well

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  10. Well Dustin, he has to bring his “A game”, and he hasn’t yet, We’ll see if Cain can keep the momentum.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  11. Also, I always wondered when the US Mexico Border became the Texas Mexico Border?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  12. ian

    There is no A game, maybe thats the point, I think he should just ignore romney and the attacks and just tell people about Texas and what he will do.

    Romney will say and do anything – will lie on a drop of a pin and not be called out on it by the moderators or the press – Fox is in full court – anti-perry because he told the truth about social security

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  13. That’s not terribly reassuring on Cain’s part, if he didn’t know Awlaki’s status, at the time, as for
    two additional taxes, really, that’s can ‘t possibly
    go wrong.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  14. You don’t support a candidate based on who looks good in the polls over a year out from the election. This is especially true when the incumbent is perpetual failure. You vote for who you like and let the chips fall where they may in the polls and the primaries. The poll cited here where “only 19% have made up their mind on which candidate to support” shows that the election could go to just about anyone.

    CrustyB (d4da92)

  15. Perry trailed Kay 56-31 percent

    he won, she made no mistakes, is popular in Texas

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  16. Kay voted to start a trade war with China yesterday… that Cornyn poofter too

    nasty people

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  17. Ah facepalm with a Chluthu, really,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  18. Happy

    A trade war with China is looong overdue, in the end it will be the ned of communism

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  19. America is too weak sniveling and cowardly to even think about engaging in such a war Mr. Johnson… our political class will use the fallout of such a conflict to further their rape of our freedoms

    it would be the mother of all not-to-be-wasted opportunities

    it’s how they roll

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  20. Happy

    I disagree that a trade war with China has that effect at all. In fact much of the problems we are having is the fake intrusion of chinese goods produced at great cost not least cost in china and made competative through manipulation of the urrency echange not the free trade principles that guide everyone else

    Europe has made deep cuts to china and they somehow survived

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  21. haters have to hate
    weak-sucks will suck it weakly
    may the best man win!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  22. reason rick is toast
    and then he was before or
    for before he was

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  23. Some here however disagree (not me of course)

    When assessing which changes to make, lawmakers need to remember these two rules:

    1.Taxes matter to business. Business taxes affect business decisions, job creation and retention, plant location, competitiveness, the transparency of the tax system, and the long-term health of a state’s economy. Most importantly, taxes diminish profits. If taxes take a larger portion of profits, that cost is passed along to either consumers (through higher prices), workers (through lower wages or fewer jobs), or shareholders (through lower dividends or share value). Thus a state with lower tax costs will be more attractive to business investment, and more likely to experience economic growth.

    2.States do not enact tax changes (increases or cuts) in a vacuum. Every tax law will in some way change a state’s competitive position relative to its immediate neighbors, its geographic region, and even globally. Ultimately it will affect the state’s national standing as a place to live and to do business. Entrepreneurial states can take advantage of the tax increases of their neighbors to lure businesses out of high-tax states.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22658.html

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  24. much of the problems we are having… is the strangulating over-regulation of our economy and our inherent cowardly acceptance of 1.5 trillion dollar deficits year after year after year

    when America shows it has the balls to drill its own oil like a grown-up country and stops nominating ANWR cowards like John McCain and Barack Obama for the presidency and when they learn how to make cars without spending kabillions in welfare monies for fat-ass united autoworker thugs and when they learn how to budget their monies like they didn’t have a crack habit THEN maybe they can think about starting trade wars with the big dogs

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  25. happy trails to you
    until you’re beat agin, rick
    happy trails to you

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  26. Col

    New polls are coming out Showinf Rick and Cain at the top and Romney and Newt tied for 3rd

    its a long long long time to the first election

    Also Perry in 3 weeks raised 17 million, so I dont think its over yet

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  27. 9. 20,000 Libyan sidewinders are missing, Urkel is going to need a pardon post Jan. 20, 2013, Dead Meat topping the ticket nationwide is Donkapolypse,…

    18. Chupacabra Cornyn blows. What TEA candidate is Perry backing with endorsement, funding and foot soldiers to replace Hutchinson?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  28. I don’t know Mr. gary… Kay said she was retiring but that was just another of her lies

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  29. poll just out that Romney beats obama 46-42. PErry not, Cain not

    tifosa (555db2)

  30. Dead Meat topping the ticket nationwide is Donkapolypse

    Yes, but NObama actually believes he’s the bee’s knees. His mild ego and his slight narcissism won’t allow him to bow out gracefully.

    I’m hoping, anyway. I want him to run for re-election because of all the down-ticket carnage he would cause the Socialist Democrat Party. It’s the best chance to get this ship turned around on less than a half century.

    John Hitchcock (3dac1a)

  31. Gary

    Cornyn is one of the most conservative senators

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  32. What were Reagan’s numbers against Carter in March, 1980? Oops, darn those poll-worshipers and their regular failures. Kinda like Keynesians and all the unexpectedly poor economic numbers.

    John Hitchcock (3dac1a)

  33. if it were up to John Cornyn Charlie Crist would be a senator and Mr. Marco Rubio would be a nameless sod

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  34. John

    Rick rarely led in Polls, Romney has always led in polls, so who knows

    All I know is that the next debate is going to be a Perry beat fest as everyone on the left and the right is scared to death to have to talk about overspending and over entitlements

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  35. wrong as usual, pee wee.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  36. Reform that Ponzi scheme, Rick Perry!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  37. Two more points from the web today, though I don’t have time to dig up the links at the moment. HotAir and Drudge are reporting theat Perry raked in a ton of cash. How much of that was in the last two weeks would be interesting to know. Also, the NYT contacted the author of a book about the growing science of elections, who put out her chapter on Perry as an e-book, because his approach is so unorthodox. Perry has invited in political scientists to run controlled experiments within his campaign. The author opined that Camp Perry likely does not think their approach needs to change. It’s one thing for me to buck the CW regarding the debates; it would take chutzpah bordering on arrogance for Perry to continue to not care about them in the face of the current polling.

    Karl (37b303)

  38. Mitt Romney leads in a Quinnipiac University poll released today with 22 percent support among Republicans and those leaning Republican. He’s followed by Herman Cain (17 percent), Rick Perry (14 percent), Sarah Palin (9 percent), Newt Gingrich (8 percent), Ron Paul (6 percent), Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum (3 percent), and Jon Huntsman (1 percent). When Palin supporters were forced to give a second choice, the results were: Romney (24 percent), Cain (18 percent), and Perry (15 percent).

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279225/romney-leads-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  39. Perry just has to prove he can make the sentences and then look out

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  40. “Fifty-eight percent of GOP primary voters say they are watching the debates. Only 10 percent agree that children of illegal immigrants should pay in-state tuition rates.

    Seventy-four percent of GOP primary voters would prefer that Sarah Palin not enter the race.”

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  41. “Rick Perry raised $17 million last quarter, his campaign announced today…

    To put that number into context, in the previous quarter, Mitt Romney (who has not yet released his third quarter numbers) raised $18.25 million, Ron Paul and Tim Pawlenty $4.5 million, Michele Bachmann $4.2 million, Jon Huntsman $4.1 million, Herman Cain $2.48 million, Newt Gingrich $2 million, and Rick Santorum $582,348.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279218/perry-raises-17-million-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  42. Happy

    Marco Rubio made a speech – as speaker of the Florida house – he was a differenty person

    charlie Christ imploded after being the 2nd most thrifty governor in the country (Florida in 2nd to last in state spending – Texas is Last) and was accused of spending more than he did and fought Rubios spnding initiatives which is why the two dont like each other

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  43. China has more engineers than we do already… poor sad helpess declining America needs all the help it can get

    even from Paco and Marisol

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  44. Charlie Crist smells like jurgens lotion and little boys

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  45. Col

    Mitts raised 18 in 3 months, Perry 17 in three weeks

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  46. tifosa: poll just out that Romney beats obama 46-42. PErry not, Cain not

    Can we stop with the worn out Romney-is-more-electable argument? Tired of it.

    Polls of this kind are absolutely meaningless at this stage, but it seems to be just about the only argument the Romney folks put forth.

    If you support Romney, talk substance — not meaningless polls.

    beer 'n pretzels (2f4b27)

  47. I think its going to be a 4way for awhile with Cain Romney Perry and Newt until people have to pull a lever and only one of the 4 has a job making decisions – so that what it all comes down too

    All of the three Republicans above would mae a great president.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  48. Perry just has to prove he can make the sentences and then look out

    Comment by happyfeet

    There Will Be Sparks.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  49. gogogo go rick perry he’s burning up the quarter-mile

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  50. I sense some disenchantment, pikachu,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  51. the dark is always darkest when the lights are off Mr. cormac

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  52. Fox news right now asking Cain why he’s raising taxes

    vetting….

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  53. Didn’t someone just recently tell us that a Perry nomination was a done deal?

    JD (352bcf)

  54. ‘those words they were using’ yadda, yadda’

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  55. At this point I think the Beltway insiders may be resigned to Romamba but not a confident front of unification.

    His strength, 25% polling as frontrunner in the Heartland is underwhelming with a year remaining to sicken of his face and faceless persona.

    McLame at least had the military on board. Until the Palin pick, following closing the deal with the GOP and Mittens dropping, he was at 42%.

    I say the insiders are willing to throw away the victory and the polls are complete crap.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  56. Well at least one government employee has figured out how to survive the economic crisis. 85 year old Duchess of Alba, one of Spain’s richest, marries her 61 year old toy boy. You need to check out the wedding picture. And see? There is hope for ambitious toy boys of any age!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/duchess-ofalba-marriage-2011-10

    elissa (6a6d2d)

  57. “There is hope for ambitious toy boys of any age!”

    elissa – Heh. Link does not work, for which I give thanks.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. JD

    No, what I said was if he climbs to 50% its over – thas before fox news changed the constitution, basic geography, and white washed Obamas Romneys record

    I as facsinated as Perry became the owner of the US border with Mexico as the Governor of Texas and was politically responsible for 150 years of Federal entitlement policies

    and any candidate that climbs that high effectively ends the race

    But its okay he’s getting most of the cash :)

    BTW – we missed any comments or predictions by you :)

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  59. There were a couple of polls yesterday that asked if people’s view of Cain was less because of Cain using the race card against Perry on Sunday interviews with Mike Wallace and Christiane Amanpour? 61% yes, 39% no.

    Cain has run as not running on race, yet he slammed Perry for a hit piece written by the Washington Compost when it was clear that Cain was not in possession of all the facts (agreeing with Amanpour about Perry “owning” the deer lease, when Perry didn’t own it and didn’t lease it, his father did).

    Yesterday, Romney jumped on the “insensitve” bandwagon, but some think it is unwise for Romney to go there considering he belongs to a religion that barred blacks from membership until the late 1900′s.

    So now Cain is the rocket soaring high in the polls. But it is still months from the first primary, and as we have seen with both Romney and Perry, those political rockets have a habit of coming down as fast as they rose. If Cain become’s the actual front runner, the media will go after him with a vengence. We will see if he plays the race card then. If he does, he will be a dead duck. And eventually, Romney will attack Cain with the vitriol he is now using against Perry. Those events could (I said could) work in Perry’s favor. If Romney and Cain are beating up on each other, Perry will be doing what he does best; personal retail politics, i.e. taking it to the people directly.

    My guess is that there is a Romney/Cain quid pro quo. Cain said, before the Compost hit piece on Perry, that he could never support Perry and would, in fact, support Romney as he did in 2008. Is Cain positioning himself for a VP slot? It is worth perusing.

    Today, Walter Williams, an economist I admire, came out with an article saying that Social Security IS a Ponzi Scheme and anyone who thinks it is not should read his article.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  60. 63. “My guess is that there is a Romney/Cain quid pro quo.”

    Insiders may prefer the status quo en toto but they will be mollified should any of Romney, Cain or Perry wins the general.

    Not saying Cain is Forrest Gump or Perry can be bought like a cheap suit, just the Beltway will have dodged the TEA bullet for another term.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  61. I don’t see how someone can say that a GOP candidate is toast, at least not at this point. It’s too early. I also hope conservatives won’t get so polarized that we forget the goal is to support the eventual Republican nominee and beat Obama. What we can’t afford is for the losing candidates’ supporters to stay home in November 2012.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  62. “What we can’t afford is for the losing candidates’ supporters to stay home in November 2012.”

    My first opportunity to vote POTUS was a Nixon/McGovern/Socialist offering. I declined.

    This time in MN, the Constitution Party will again run a candidate, or I can write in. No need to sulk at home.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  63. My NOT Romney vote is set but I and I am sure many others have not yet decided who will get our NOT Romney vote. Leaning to Perry because I want drilling and tort reform. If he begins to improve his debate skills, then he will most likely be my NOT Romney vote. Otherwise, maybe Cain.

    Texas Mom 2012 (cee89f)

  64. In 1860 Lincoln was the Whig IL State Assemblyman-Elect and the incumbent did not run for re-election. Against 3 national opponents Lincoln won an Electoral College landslide with 40%.

    Even if Urkel is still alive, 40% can, in 2012, provide a landslide, the devil is in the details.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  65. Is Romney having an inner crisis?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  66. I don’t see how someone can say that a GOP candidate is toast

    Agreed.

    Frankly, I think people need to open up their wallets. If you don’t want Romney to be the nominee, donate to someone you do want to be the nominee. I think you have to look at Cain and Perry’s backgrounds and commentary, and pick the one you think would be the best president, and send them a little money.

    Do you want to sit there in November 2012 as Obama and Romney promise entitlement goodies, wishing you had done more in 2011?

    It’s barely even begun. Those trying to make a show of how Romney has sealed the deal are doing that for sheer politics, because they know that’s far from true. Romney couldn’t even beat Mccain.

    Reform that Ponzi scheme, Rick Perry!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku —

    Haiku is right. We need Perry if we’re going to see reform. Romney knows it needs reform, but he’s not tough enough to do it, and is even using
    Chuck Schumer’s talking points about how scary reform would be despite knowing this is wrong.

    We need to rally around somebody who isn’t Romney. If that’s not Perry, that’s fine, but I think it should be Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  67. Have EPWJ and DohBiden been drinking from the same canteen?

    Icy Texan (2db96e)

  68. The Democrats and the GOP establishment both want Romney to win the Republican nomination, but for opposing reasons. Democrats think Obama has the best chance of beating Romney, and the GOP establishment would rather lose the election than have a TEA Party candidate at the top of the Republican ticket.

    ropelight (cf8c8f)

  69. Frankly, I think people need to open up their wallets.

    That only encourages them (Heh!).

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (65a0b7)

  70. Palin has the power to shake up this election, either by running herself or endorsing someone.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  71. Anonymous, just like the TEA Party; except, it has no core beliefs, no goals, no aspirations, just a narcissisum that borders on pathological.
    No wonder Nishi fits in.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (65a0b7)

  72. ==or endorsing someone==

    Do you really think so, DRJ? I guess I fear that for the general, an R. candidate having Sarah’s endorsement (even from back in the primary) could be hurt more than it could help him.

    elissa (6a6d2d)

  73. Palin has the power to shake up this election, either by running herself or endorsing someone.

    Comment by DRJ — 10/5/2011 @ 11:37 am

    Oh yes indeed.

    I do not have a problem if she runs. I suspect she won’t, and I further suspect the cries if she did would be ridiculous.

    But anyway, she is quite powerful. I think she should ask Cain, Perry, and anyone else she is considering, for a meeting and then tell us her honest view for better or worse. I think that would have an enormous impact on the primary.

    I’m not going to say Perry = Tea party, but I think both he and Cain generally get it, and I think both these men are sincere about it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  74. . candidate having Sarah’s endorsement (even from back in the primary) could be hurt more than it could help him.

    Elissa, Palin is polarizing, so it’s not like you’re being unreasonable in this analysis, but a lot of people wind up endorsing or supporting somebody.

    It’s likely all major Republicans will support the GOP nominee, so I’m not sure they will be terribly moved by Palin’s endorsement. At least if we’re talking about voters who aren’t firmly Obama supporters.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  75. I remember when Sarah Palin endorsed Rick Perry for governor that was very exciting.

    Then later she told us he was corrupt.

    Bummer.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  76. Right, consider that your candidate, is being asked to atone for something that was resolved 28 years ago, then talk to me about polarizing again,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  77. “While a bunch of politicians have gone to Washington, hat in hand, seeking a bailout, Governor Perry has said we should stimulate the economy with tax cuts and maintain spending discipline,” Palin said. “Rick Perry is true to conservative principles even when others think the party needs to go a different direction. I like that about him: he doesn’t care which way the wind blows, he acts on his beliefs.”

    Palin Endorses Perry in 2009.

    And I think her comment here captures Perry’s biggest obstacle yet is what I like about him.

    He’s is what he is, not blowing in the wind or choosing exactly what I want to hear, yet also not precisely on the same page I’m on for a few issues.

    And since he’s been a leader far longer than most of his competition, it’s easy for people with less resume to complain about hard calls Perry’s made. But if they are such great leaders, why are so few of them leading today? Where have they been?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  78. Right, consider that your candidate, is being asked to atone for something that was resolved 28 years ago, then talk to me about polarizing again,

    Comment by ian cormac — 10/5/2011 @ 12:09 pm

    ummmm, you have a point there, I guess. I don’t think about it this way. Is Perry’s rock scandal a major impediment to his electability?

    That’s worth considering. I would not prefer Perry to Romney if I didn’t firmly believe Perry is quite electable. Romney polls well, but the GOP is on thin ice.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  79. All politicians, in one way or the other, are “corrupt”; they are (after all) just men or women.
    We’re trying to elect a President here People, not nominating someone for Sainthood, or Pope!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (65a0b7)

  80. We’ll plug corporate tax loopholes so companies will pay their fair share.

    Obama AND Romney said this.

    Hilarious video.

    I do not understand why the GOP establishment wants four more years of this kind of attitude.

    Bonus humor points when Romney calls himself part of the middle class.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  81. ==I do not understand why the GOP establishment wants four more years of this kind of attitude==

    Dustin, I know you already know this, so please don’t be offended if I reiterate it: What the GOP establishment wants is the same as most of us want–Obama and his ilk out of the White House and a string of down ticket 2012 victories that extends the GOP presence in both houses of congress. That is the only way Obamacare can be repealed and the only way battleship liberal can even possibly be turned around (if it’s not already too late).

    I may be wrong, but I think how America feels over all about the GOP top ‘o the ticket will have a big influence on who they vote for down ticket as well. It’s all tied together.

    elissa (6a6d2d)

  82. That’s a very insightful response, Elissa.

    how America feels over all about the GOP top ‘o the ticket will have a big influence

    This is true. In both directions. A candidate the left can demonize effectively will help get dems to the polls, and a candidate the right can believe in will do the same, but if we’re talking about the middle, a Romney strategy is less scary than a reformer strategy.

    So it isn’t the end of the world if Romney is elected, but I think his agenda will do little for Tea Partiers. Our consolation prize will be, hopefully, a powerful congress that sends reform bills to Romney. And that’s not so bad.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  83. A point that’s not getting adequate mention is that without Conservative support (that is TEA Party support) the GOP can’t win in 2012.

    Sure, Conservatives will hold their noses, turn out, and vote a straight Republican ticket on election day. And they can be counted on to dutifully put up yard signs and display bumper stickers. But, like in 2008, they won’t volunteer to knock on doors or work phone banks, nor will they write checks for a candidate they don’t trust.

    It’s not near enough to be against Barack Obama and his Socialist agenda, Conservatives have to be motivated to give up valuable time with their family and friends, and persuaded the cause is worth their effort. Conservatives have to be energized and excited to work for their party’s nominee or it will be 2008 all over again.

    McCain lost in some measure because he couldn’t inspire confidence. Romney is in danger of a similar fate.

    ropelight (cf8c8f)

  84. ropelight, I think it’s just too hard to build a campaign entirely out of opposition.

    I want to beat Obama, but it’s not very fulfilling to spend the next year+ in Anti-Incumbent mode. I want to support something I believe in positively.

    That’s what Ron Paul’s fans have. They support someone’s agenda. It’s an agenda I don’t agree with in major ways, and it’s politically unrealistic, but they aren’t entirely about beating the other party’s guy no matter what (in fact… they kinda seem cluelessly aloof to that).

    Romney would really be another version of the Mccain campaign. Romney is out there today being a complete RINO on SS reform. You could take his words and tell someone you were quoting Obama or Schumer and no one would doubt you for a second. He’s clearly got a ‘don’t rock the boat’ tenor. The only change is that while Mccain got votes from people who predicted an Obama disaster, Romney will get votes from people who remember an Obama disaster.

    And much of that disaster is the mandate to buy health insurance, and the frustration of seeing the nation spend and spend because no one has the spine to balance the budget. Might I add that Perry’s plan specifically includes fighting hard for a balanced budget amendment.

    It is unfortunate that Perry’s defense has included contempt for those taking the hard line on immigration. But it is what it is, and I think rejecting a 90% ally should be done only with the greatest care.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  85. She did not say Perry was corrupt you cockass.

    Let’s protest Warren Buffet and bring him back to reality so our children can have a future………..who is with me?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  86. ==Conservatives have to be energized and excited to work for their party’s nominee or it will be 2008 all over again.==

    rope–I hear ya. But never forget that McCain was running against “a kind of a god” with one hand held behind his back due to PC. He was also running in a nation with serious Bush fatigue. Whoever ends up as teh GOP nominee is not running against the same Barack Obama this time. That is important to keep in mind.

    elissa (6a6d2d)

  87. Whoever ends up as teh GOP nominee is not running against the same Barack Obama this time.

    I just read that Obama’s daughters are being listed as “senior staff” for incredibly expensive globe trotting junkets. We’ve got some heavy hitting investigations coming, too. I think next spring, Obama will be hit so hard on corruption scandals, and his best defense will be that he was not running his administration at all.

    And to the folks needing jobs who saw Obama on the golf course, this is not going to go over well.

    So perhaps this is not the best year to make the most pragmatic compromise, but instead to go for a great reformer. We have to decide if 2012 will be an election merely about rejecting Obama in favor of someone who is smarter but not ideological, or if 2012 is about mandating reform.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  88. Well McCain had tied his own hands, I suppose on the advice of Schmidt and Wallace (who is better
    at underhanded slurring, than actual strategy, as current events show)there was one person on that campaign, who saw Obama as the self important,
    left wing ideologue,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  89. but instead to go for a great reformer
    But, she hasn’t announced (yet).

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (65a0b7)

  90. No, she certainly hasn’t. Not sure what her plans are.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  91. “We’ll plug corporate tax loopholes so companies will pay their fair share.

    Obama AND Romney said this.”

    Dustin – Perry said it too when he raised the franchise tax in 2007 that he refuses to call a tax increase. You can see it hurt the standing of Texas in the survey of tax environment that EPWJ was spamming the thread with earlier.

    I favor applying the same standards to all the candidates, not just the ones who are not your favorites.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. We’ll plug Moochelle Obamas butt.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  93. Union workers use us asthe taxpayers as their vessel but have the audacity to complain about greed?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  94. Yesterday, Romney jumped on the “insensitve” bandwagon, but some think it is unwise for Romney to go there considering he belongs to a religion that barred blacks from membership until the late 1900′s.

    More lies from the retired putz…

    Colonelhaiku (a4b693)

  95. I don’t find it fair to blame Romney for the practices of the Mormon faith. Romney grew up in a family that was Mormon for generations, after all.

    A lot of churches reform their views over time. I recall that baptist churches such as the one my wife grew up in do not permit women to preach.

    I do not know precisely what the Mormon black issue is, but I believe it was that blacks couldn’t be clergy until the 1970s. Indeed, that’s to say that as Mitt’s generation came of age, the Mormon church got better, but again, I am not an expert.

    Religion should be off limits.

    Anyway, as a different matter, I find it quite amusing that Romney’s fans will bash Perry for his excellent tax record.

    Texas is favorable to the taxpayer. Businesses come here because red tape and taxes are much more reasonable than in, say, MA. Perry doesn’t have to hide his successful tax record, and indeed it is Romney’s fans who try to deny him credit for his tax policy, saying it’s just plain nothing special since Texas is just automatically a utopia.

    Mitt’s problem with taxes is not just that his policy was worse (and indeed, his tax policy was MUCH WORSE than Perry’s). Mitt’s problem is sincerity. In many ways, Mitt has tried to deceive the voters in order to have it both ways on taxes. If you want a gun, the gun tax is $100. It was $25 before Mitt. Mitt championed increasing taxes on businesses, while also phrasing these hikes as loophole closings.

    Sure, if you’re totally unreasonable, you can pretend Rick is just as bad as Mitt on taxes, but that’s silly. Rick’s policies were not meant to deceive. He wants low taxes, and so Texans have low taxes and reelected our low tax governor. Simple as that, and those trying to compare should admit this plain fact.

    But let’s leave family, religion, and other stuff like that out of this.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  96. I don’t think candidates should be responsible for everything their religions stand for but IMO religion shouldn’t be off-limits. Obama’s chosen church and the beliefs of its minister should have mattered in 2008. I’d also be worried about a candidate who believes in Scientology.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  97. I do not know precisely what the Mormon black issue is, but I believe it was that blacks couldn’t be clergy until the 1970s. Indeed, that’s to say that as Mitt’s generation came of age, the Mormon church got better, but again, I am not an expert.

    Black men could not hold the Melchizedek priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until a revelation to the Prophet of the church in 1978. There is a very good documentary “The Black Mormons” which can be had on DVD.

    The day that was lifted is celebrated by every Mormon I have the honor of knowing.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  98. Romney is an opportunistic whore and he’s gonna seize on everything and anything he can cause goddamnit it’s his presidency

    it’s his it’s his it’s his

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  99. happyfeet, you are a bigoted, tasty vegan pancake syrup swilling slug. Your mere presence here lowers the collective IQ by a measurable amount.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  100. Scientology’s a huge dealbreaker that’s an evil evil scam what preys on young people

    it’s a hide your kids hide your wife and hide your husbands thing when you see them ones

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  101. Hi Mr. Colonel how are you? Romney is the one candidate what is running to have been thoroughly inspected by the voters not long ago – in 2008 in fact – and he was found to be second-best to guess who?

    spoiler alert

    Meghan’s coward daddy!

    I don’t know how he can ever hope to come back from that decisive a rejection.

    Maybe if he spends a lot of money?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  102. Romney seems like a good and decent man, happyfeet. He’s not my first choice but I have no doubt he would do a better job as President than Barack Obama. Surely you think so, too?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  103. I’m seriously not sold on that DRJ. I don’t know that he’s a good and decent man I think he’s a vain man with a hyper-enlarged sense of entitlement – just like Team R’s last nominee.

    Two things…

    I think a nomination of Romney would represent an emphatic rejection of Tea Party principles. That moment would be over.

    I think the people to whom Romney would owe his presidency are not the sort of people we want our president beholden to. We don’t have time for that. Our poor little country is going to sink beneath the waves of debt and fail and hopelessness.

    It makes me so sad.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  104. and for Romney to seize on the macaca post’s silly 80′s racism rock story says as much about his character as it does about Cain’s and that guy with the nasty nasty google problem

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  105. happyfeet,

    Electing a conservative President would be a plus but it will never be enough to implement Tea Party goals. The real power comes from electing solid conservatives to Congress.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  106. I agree with that too… but we don’t have time to salvage america incrementally I don’t think

    it’s crunch time, and we don’t need to put some asinine JC Penney catalog model in our little white house who is so bereft of intellectual honesty that he looks at social security and pompously declares it not to be a ponzi scheme but America at its heartwarmingly redistributey best

    gack

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  107. Happy

    Ihave/had some collegues/employees who used to work for him. People have different persona’s at work, at home, in politics, at church and even on Blogs.

    romney would make an excellent president if he learns that he is not going to make everyone happy and do the heavy lifting that he knows in his heart has to be done.

    He is a very nice warm man, a gentlemen, spoiled yes, used to getting his way, disrespectful to other candidates – yes but this is politics and it brings out the worse in weaker people.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  108. I have/ahd some colleagues

    sorry

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  109. and I’m too tired to type straight – more than usual

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  110. ok but I don’t think he merits elevation to the presidency at this moment

    there wouldn’t be any real point to it – he just wants the t-shirt I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  111. I have/ahd some colleagues

    sorry

    Make sure you tell them to get thoroughly checked for STD’s, PeeWee!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  112. Lots of hostility here. What are you afraid of, Haiku?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  113. and for Romney to seize on the macaca post’s silly 80′s racism rock story says as much about his character as it does about Cain’s and that guy with the nasty nasty google problem

    Comment by happyfeet

    All is fair in love and politics. I think he has restrained himself admirably on the several occasions where Perry was on the ropes, punch-drunk and reeling incoherently.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  114. Lots of hostility here. What are you afraid of, Haiku?

    I dislike people calling decent people whores or worse. I’m like that.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  115. no that’s not the case Mr. Haiku that all is fair and blah and blah

    we are at a moment what for our sad little country is an existential one

    we need to be talking about how to keep our little ship from plowing into the rocks

    But no. Romney wants to talk about wayward mexican people and some rock what he thinks is fraught with meaning and he wants to celebrate social security like it wasn’t a dagger pointed at our debt-sodden little country’s heart.

    He’s not running for president of the America we’re living in cause he knows he’d never win that one.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  116. I don’t like it either, ColonelHaiku, but it sounds like you’re perfectly willing to do the same. Why else would you respond by telling people to get checked for STDs?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  117. I don’t understand this reverence for American politicians. They’re a pretty dismal lot by anyone’s measure I think.

    Look at the mess they’ve gotten us in. Look at all they’ve squandered, and so capriciously.

    There’s something deeply not right with these people.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  118. Pee Wee doesn’t make the cut. He has repeatedly demonstrated his lack of honesty and predilection for inventing events out of whole cloth.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  119. Obama’s chosen church and the beliefs of its minister should have mattered in 2008. I’d also be worried about a candidate who believes in Scientology.

    I was mistaken to be so absolutist. you are right to find these situations to be worrisome.

    I’m hard on many aspects of Romney’s behavior, but I think it’s fine to assume in private life he’s like most Mormons, who are far better folks than the Rev Wrights out there, IMO.

    There is a very good documentary “The Black Mormons” which can be had on DVD.

    I’ll look into it. Sounds very interesting.

    The day that was lifted is celebrated by every Mormon I have the honor of knowing.

    That what I figured. It’s not like reforms happen in a vacuum of ambivalent people.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  120. this one came out right before romney ran last time

    I don’t think for a second it was a coincidence

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  121. “Anyway, as a different matter, I find it quite amusing that Romney’s fans will bash Perry for his excellent tax record.”

    Dustin – As usual, you miss the point. You are amused by Jon Stewart comparing Romney to Obama because he justified raising taxes as closing tax loopholes. I point out, just to be fair, Perry did the same thing and won’t even acknowledge it was a tax increase. In fact, the scheme was so bad, he had to come back later and exempt a whole passel of small businesses from the scheme. That was my point. I’m amused you ignore it, as you do other criticisms you make of Romney that can also be applied to Perry.

    Massachusetts certainly has a worse tax environment than Texas. Was it all caused by Romney? Hell no and it is dishonest to imply it was. Texas overall has done a good job keeping taxes low, Massachusetts has not, but neither Perry nor Romney get all the credit or blame.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  122. Dustin does not “as usual” miss the point Mr. daley that, my friend, is hyperbole

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  123. I couldn’t stop laughing. EPWJ wrote:

    “…and I’m too tired to type straight – more than usual
    …”

    NTTIAWWT, I suppose. Hysterical. Right up there with “I work here is done.”

    Simon Jester (dddc0d)

  124. Oh, and Colonel? There are a lot of fans of Mr. Feet’s habit of insulting others in weird and supposedly edgy/cutsie ways. It’s so much easier than actually, well, criticizing policy.

    But I’m not popular for not joining the “it’s teh funnee” chorus when the “hoochie” and “whore” and “coward” insults get to flying.

    So I wish you well in registering your difference of opinion.

    Simon Jester (dddc0d)

  125. look I’m sorry I’m sorry I can’t join the happy tribe of sycophants what orbit your American politicians but the proof is in the pudding so to speak and mostly they all suck ass is my observation

    the key thing you need to know about sweet sarah sunshine is this:

    she was for the bridge to nowhere before she was against it

    and that my friends is same as rape

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  126. Massachusetts certainly has a worse tax environment than Tex

    Yup. And Mitt made it yet worse.

    Whereas the one basic thing that really keeps taxes low is…

    anyone? anyone?

    low spending.

    There’s reason #1 I support Perry. He cut spending. If it could be cut, it was cut. Even education, the sacred cow of all state politics.

    Taxes are great here, and they will continue to be, because Perry’s approach is fundamentally more serious than Romney’s. Romney, again, raised taxes even for owning a freaking gun to $100, an increase of 400%. And then noted it’s not a tax because he calls that one a fee. As businesses fled MA to Texas, he noted it’s time to make businesses pay more taxes, only that’s not a tax because it’s a loophole closing (I guess I’m simplifying this? not by much).

    Meanwhile, did Romney oversee spending cuts? No. Spending went up. and up. and up.

    That’s what I mean. On this one, Romney is not far from most Republicans. Republican politicians, especially well established ones, generally talk about low taxes while they absolutely ensure high taxes because spending is going up.

    That’s what the Tea Party is all about for me. That’s one of many reasons I just don’t trust Romney, who I am informed is the official nominee already.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  127. Always with the classiness, Mr. Feet, especially with the lovely rape reference. But as I say, you have many admirers. But there are many people who just don’t respond to you.

    Gosh, I wish I was as certain of everything as you are of cilantro. You sure don’t like it when the people who disagree with you call you offensive names. In fact, everyone thinks that is a bad idea…but it’s okay when you do it. Funny thing, that.

    But then, it gets all fighty. You just go ahead and let your freak flag fly.

    Simon Jester (dddc0d)

  128. “Whereas the one basic thing that really keeps taxes low is…

    anyone? anyone?”

    Dustin – Federal Funding?

    Texas gets about half its funds every year from the federal government. Of course more than half of those funds are specifically matched, such as Medicaid or Medicare reimbursements. The rest of the federal funds are designated for specific purposes rather than general purpose discretionary spending, but boy howdy, getting those funds from Uncle Sugar helps keep the tax pressure off your own constituents. Seems like a strange position for a supporter of “small government” too.

    Those federal funds did help Texas double spending in nominal dollars over the past decade. I have not checked, but what other states receive a similar overall ratio of federal dollars to overall spending?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  129. “Meanwhile, did Romney oversee spending cuts? No. Spending went up. and up. and up.”

    Dustin – Funny thing about those Romney numbers. They are presented differently than the Texas numbers. Apples to apples how different are they?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  130. _______________________________________________

    What were Reagan’s numbers against Carter in March, 1980? Comment by John Hitchcock — 10/5/2011 @ 7:08 am

    Interesting that you should ask. Your piquing my curiosity about the situation 31 years ago is one reason I appreciate this forum. IOW, I find my lack of knowledge or clarity about some question or issue makes me want to do a bit of web searching that I’d otherwise not feel prompted to initiate.

    Time.com: For weeks before the presidential election, the gurus of public opinion polling were nearly unanimous in their findings. In survey after survey, they agreed that the coming choice between President Jimmy Carter and Challenger Ronald Reagan was “too close to call.” A few points at most, they said, separated the two major contenders.

    But when the votes were counted, the former California Governor had defeated Carter by a margin of 51% to 41% in the popular vote—a rout for a U.S. presidential race. In the electoral college, the Reagan victory was a 10-to-l avalanche that left the President holding only six states and the District of Columbia.

    After being so right for so long about presidential elections — the pollsters’ findings had closely agreed with the voting results for most of the past 30 years — how could the surveys have been so wrong?

    At the heart of the controversy is the fact that no published survey detected the Reagan landslide before it actually happened. Three weeks before the election, for example, TIME’S polling firm, Yankelovich, Skelly and White, produced a survey of 1,632 registered voters showing the race almost dead even, as did a private survey by Caddell. Two weeks later, a survey by CBS News and the New York Times showed about the same situation. Some pollsters at that time, however, were getting results that showed a slight Reagan lead. ABC News-Harris surveys, for example, consistently gave Reagan a lead of a few points until the climactic last week of October.

    Re-interviewing 2,651 adults who had been questioned before the election, [Warren] Mitofsky [director of polling for CBS News and the New York Times] found that some 13% of the voters changed their minds in the last few days of the campaign and that Reagan got the lion’s share of the switchers.

    The Harris organization, which is claiming great credit for doing better than other public polls, was four points off Reagan’s actual voting percentage, the largest error factor it has ever had in a presidential election. Gallup not only also missed the winner’s voting percentage by four points but further erred by saying that Reagan was ahead by a margin of only three points.

    Looking for explanations of what went wrong, [Richard] Wirthlin [head of the Reagan campaign's polling] believes that the other pollsters erred by estimating that there would be more Democrats in the final body of voters than there turned out to be. He also criticizes the others for asking the key presidential-choice question first instead of last, after asking about issues and impressions of the candidates. This, he insists, produced a pro-Carter bias.

    ^ Good think I wasn’t old enough to have been all that political minded back in 1980. Otherwise I’d have been pretty POed observing so many polls — right up until the end — giving such an optimistic slant to an earlier version of Obama, namely Jimmy Carter. However, as bad as Carter was (and is), at least he wasn’t as staunchly “Goddamn America” and so intertwined with a truly pathetic (or appalling) ultra-liberal background (Hi, Bill Ayers! Hi, Frank Davis! Hey, Jeremiah Wright!) as his current Democrat successor is.

    Mark (411533)

  131. Dustin – Funny thing about those Romney numbers. They are presented differently than the Texas numbers. Apples to apples how different are they?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/5/2011 @ 9:48 pm

    No need for riddles.

    Perry cut agencies. Just about all of them. Period.

    You employ sophistry to try to muddy the facts up. It’s very difficult to know precisely what you’re alleging half the time.

    How much out of every MA citizen’s pocket does MA spend? How much out of every TX citizen’s pocket does TX spend.

    APPLES TO APPLES, MA is 50% more. No exaggeration. Out of every $1000 a Texan earns, he loses 45 of it to fund the state. Out of every $1000 a MA citizen earns, he loses 65 to the state. And did Romney make that better, or did he make it worse?

    He made it worse. Spending went up, nearly across the board, when I read Romney’s own budget proposal I linked recently. You know, the one where he calls corporate tax hikes a decisive way to handle a budget crisis, while spending goes up?

    The only saving grace for Romney was that it was a boom period, and tax and spend policies can persist a little better in a boom.

    One thing I notice about EPWJ’s factbook link is that Texas’s population is surging ahead. It’s amazing unemployment isn’t 20% with all those people flooding here.

    It’s not what Perry did that made this possible but rather what he didn’t do. By cutting the size and intrusions of government, Perry let us take care of ourselves.

    That’s harder to do than it sounds, which is why so few leaders have Perry’s record.

    One thing that Perry has benefited from is Texas’s balanced budget laws. That is also at the top of Perry’s agenda for the federal government.

    Perry has a solution that is tested and works. It doesn’t work perfectly, but it works.

    Romney has sophistry about how you have to be really really smart and see how Romney is actually conservative despite reality.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  132. “You employ sophistry to try to muddy the facts up.

    Dustin – You argue like a liberal by shifting goal posts – see Perry raising taxes above and your attempt to change the discussion to overall tax rates.

    “It’s very difficult to know precisely what you’re alleging half the time.”

    Pro-tip – Look for clues in the words I actually write.

    “How much out of every MA citizen’s pocket does MA spend? How much out of every TX citizen’s pocket does TX spend.”

    Shift back to different subject.

    “APPLES TO APPLES, MA is 50% more.”

    Do those MA figures exclude Federal dollars? The TX figures do. Again, all credit to Perry and all blame to Romney?

    “One thing that Perry has benefited from is Texas’s balanced budget laws.”

    Yes, certain types of borrowings maintain the fiction of a balanced budget, while most people would call it deficit spending. See revenue anticipation notes.

    Some people don’t want to take an honest look at Perry’s record and are blinded by animus toward his opponents.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.7023 secs.