Patterico's Pontifications


Romney vs Not Romney, Revisited

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 9:19 am

[Posted by Karl]

As Allahpundit thinks I am being too bullish on Rick Perry’s campaign, it is probably time to repeat my standard disclaimer and collect some of the analysis I have done not only in blog posts, but in comments and tweets.  First, the disclaimer: I am currently not supporting Perry or any of the other candidates. Perhaps I am overly cynical, but I have not been excited about a presidential candidate since Reagan — and that was as likely the result of youthful exuberance as it was Reagan’s merits.

When other people were starting to call Perry the front-runner, I was still analyzing the race as Romney vs. Not Romney.  In analyzing comments from Romney back Justin Hart (who is likely feeling vindicated these days), I wrote:

At the outset, I want to stress that his point about vetting is important. There is a reason why the GOP tends to nominate the person who is “next in line.” Running for president is not an easy thing. Having done it before means you have built a network of grassroots contacts, donors, consultants, and so on. Presumably, the candidate may have learned lessons about not only strategy and tactics, but about our complex country and the people whose votes must be won. And yes, having already run a gauntlet of vetting from opponents and the media is valuable to a candidate.

Romney has benefitted from his experience, while Perry has handed his rivals at least one club in his debate comment suggesting opponents of illegal immigration are racist.  How big a club it is depends on how Perry deals with it in the next few days. (Romney’s recent Democrat-sounding comments about entitlements may become a club for Perry, but they are not as emotionally egregious as playing the race card.)

Aside from that comment, I remain of the opinion that the debates themselves are not all that significant.  Rather, they are parts of the overall vetting of a new candidate.  The general media coverage of the campaign illustrates this point.

The 2012 campaign was barely covered from mid-July through early August, as public and media attention was focused on the debt ceiling debate.  However, Perry was the most covered GOP candidate every single week since he entered the race.  He was the only GOP candidate to receive significant coverage in a number of those weeks.  In the week the debates started, Perry was featured in more than 3 times as many stories as either Romney or Bachmann.  Thus, it is not surprising that Perry’s ups and downs have been magnified, relative to other candidates.

A look at the RCP poll average for the GOP nomination tells roughly the same story.  Although Romney, Cain and Bachmann had their bumps at different times, their overall numbers declined from mid-July through early August; Perry, despite not being in the race, was the exception to the overall trend.  Moreover, Romney’s turnaround started after the Labor Day weekend, while Perry was still rising, and a week and a half before Perry appeared in a debate.  As the two most popular candidates, Perry and Romney appear to have benefitted from increased public attention to the campaign at the traditional moment.  Notably, Romney is just now back to roughly where he stood in the polls on the day Perry entered the race.

Of course, given Perry’s current stumbles, some are straight-line projecting that Romney will continue to gain while Perry will continue to fall.  That is also the impression you would get from the odds at Intrade.  If Perry’s aura of invincibility is shattered, what is left?

What is left, for starters, are the things which caused me to conclude Perry is the likely GOP nominee in the first place.  He remains the largely successful governor of a major state in one of the party’s base regions.  He remains — despite his various deviations — more conservative than Romney, which is a bit of an advantage in the more conservative major party. 

Moreover, assuming for the sake of argument that the campaign reverts to the dynamic of Romney vs Not Romney, Perry remains the only candidate in the race who has shown the ability to beat Romney.  Other candidates could make a late entry.  However, an entry by Chris Christie would be just as likely to hurt Romney as Perry.  An entry by Sarah Palin would split the Not Romney vote, carrying a significant likelihood of helping Romney more than Not Romney.  Perry is currently the most viable Not Romney and the one best positioned financially to wage a long campaign against Romney, if necessary. 

Indeed, most of the criticism of Perry’s debate performances from the right have been that Perry has failed to effectively attack Romney’s weaknesses.  It is a criticism which — like Perry’s sudden rise in general — underscores that Romney himself has exploitable flaws as a candidate.  The tendency by Romney’s supporters is to dismiss them as priced into his stock.  However, it seems unlikely to me that those flaws will not become a focus of the campaign going forward, especially if Romney is perceived as regaining the lead.

In short, Perry’s hockey-stick ascent is broken and he could play himself out of the campaign.  The GOP electorate may conclude that there is no viable alternative to Romney.  But there are currently big reasons to conclude that Perry is far from done.  Straight-line projections about the campaign remain as hazardous now as they were when Perry’s numbers were skyrocketing.


262 Responses to “Romney vs Not Romney, Revisited”

  1. Per carlitos, I’m commenting on the new thread to notify others of its existence.

    Karl (37b303)

  2. If Miss Mittens Galore is the nominee then what the hell do we need a tea party for really

    the fierce urgency of fail is upon us and Perry is the last best hope for tea party ideas to find expression in our little white house

    chop chop people

    “Romney” is a concept what is very easy to process:

    to the manor born

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  3. Romney is a flipflopper.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  4. I think what may have changed in the last week is this: For many of us ABOs who at top of all want Obama out of the WH in 2012, “not Romney” always symbolized a choice that would be better than Romney–a person a little closer to our political philosophy–and electable in the General. Now, it is clear that “not Romney” could possibly also mean worse than Romney, not much closer at all in political philosophy, and perhaps substantially less electable in the General.

    elissa (451af6)

  5. Perry ascended like a bolt of lightening into the major competitor against Romney because of all you state, Karl.
    He has been closely covered by the media wishing to knock him down, and to some extent, they have succeeded – at least in slowing his rate of ascent.
    I doubt if any of the side-line standers will jump in unless there is a major stumble by either Mitt or Rick.
    A Romney collapse could draw Christie into a race he doesn’t seem to want; and a Perry collapse could likewise draw in Palin. Neither would enter to challenge a standard-bearer for their side of the party without that stumble as it would be devestatingly devisive, ensuring the re-election of President Millstone.

    Both of these candidates need to undergo lengthy, in-depth interviews (are you listening FoxNews) by respected journalists one-on-one, to present their positions in a non-soundbite format – accompanying “white papers” wouldn’t hurt either, for the benefit of those Leftist-intellectuals who would go into a coma just at the thought of tuning-in to Fox (but would probably be more widely read by those on the Right who seem to take thoughtful discourse more seriously than the surrender to feelings found on the Left).

    In a Mile-and-a-Half race, these guys are just crossing the finish line the first time and hurtling towards the Club-house Turn.
    We need to watch them match strides down the Back-stretch, and rub-shoulders through the Far-turn, before we can ascertain who might command the Stretch run to the Finish.

    Bernie Madoff (2e4e7f)

  6. Oops, caught by SockPuppet Friday again.
    Bernie was Moi!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  7. ==Both of these candidates need to undergo lengthy, in-depth interviews (are you listening FoxNews) by respected journalists one-on-one, to present their positions==

    Uh, “Bernie”, I agree with you in theory, but I am curious to whom you are willing to assign the mantle of “respected journalists.” George Will, maybe. Who else?

    elissa (451af6)

  8. elissa, i think that a choice between Romney and Perry is not one of two lessors, but of two men who would be heads-above the current holder of the office with styles of governance that are different from each other, and markedly better than what we are currently getting.
    Personally, I would lean more towards the Barber-shop/Main Street style of Perry, over the MBA/Wall Street style of Romney; but each has their strengths.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  9. Unfortunately, in the interest of “fairness”, it is hard to find a “respected journalist” on the Left, though Christopher Hitchens does come to mind (how’s his illness coming along BTW).
    A sit-down with Charley Rose would reach a lot of people on the Left.
    Fox has “on staff” a few “respected journalists” who are not identified as members of the VRWC:
    Chris Wallace for one, Charles Krauthhamer for another(syndicated through the WaPo – how RW is that – as is George Will).
    There is a pool of names respected within the profession residing at the WSJ, both on the front (news) page, and on the OpEd page.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  10. …more,
    I would stay away from the anchors at the three networks; it is time for them to pay for their mistakes and lack of objectivity – and PBS is poison, though Brian Lamb at C-SPAN would be good.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  11. Save us, Chris Christie, you’re our only hope.

    JRM (cd0a37)

  12. ricky perry flop flop

    newrouter (b9b577)

  13. Perry’s not ready for prime-time and it shows every time he’s matched up against Romney. On stage in a scripted event Perry looks pretty darn good, but in the give-and-take of the debate arena his inexperience undermines his performance.

    So, who you gonna vote for in an election between Romney and not-Romney (when not-Romney is Barack Obama).

    ropelight (6c9774)

  14. rope, that doesn’t even have to be asked.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  15. Romney’s got to get nominated first, ropelight.

    If all you care about is the debate arena, I guess Romney’s your guy. What about how they actually lead? Romney has a record. Tax increases. Spending increases. More regulation. Gun grabbing.

    I’m not going to vote for him in the primary, and that is final. I think that’s final for any reasonable conservative. Seriously, the guy is a tax and spend ‘moderate’ republican.

    The constant refrain from Romney supporters is that conservatives will vote for Romney after he’s nominated. Well, sure. That’s kinda missing the point.

    We need to reform spending. Another four years of Obama/Romney style tax and spend kicking the can down the road is cowardly, when we have Perry, who may suck in the “debate arena”, but actually knows how to win elections.

    It takes more than the “debate arena”.

    But if Perry can’t beat Romney in the primary, he doesn’t deserve to win. I don’t want to make excuses for the guy. But I think a campaign centered around things other than debates is completely realistic anyway.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  16. May I suggest Megyn Kelly? While she is much more conservative than any of the main stream media loons I have seen her stand up for a liberal guest/commenter if the conservative was being over the top.
    Not to mention that she’s easy on the eyes.

    The only non-fox reported I would bother to watch would be Jake Tapper. He works for the communists at abc but occasionally goes off his meds to ask questions like a real reporter.

    MaaddMaaxx (25e27f)

  17. Drew’s right. Of course anyone sane will vote for Perry or Romney against Obama.

    Though there are people who are less than reasonable about this. Can Romney be elected?

    What happens if a tax and spend moderate is nominated, and a lot of Outlaw! types say it’s time to burn the house down with a third party, to send a message?

    What about all those Christine O’Donnell supporters?

    The two party system moves to the middle under the idea a lot of people will accept a compromise. A lot of people think frustration with Obama is sufficient to avoid any of the problems we saw in 2010.

    I hope so.

    Romney being the next president is indeed an improvement. But some people have this idea that it’s worse for a Republican to be liberal or accept liberalism than for a democrat, as it shifts the debate and is difficult for conservatives to overcome.

    A vote for Romney is a vote against Social Security reform, or hard nosed spending cuts as Texas has seen and thrived under. It’s also a vote against Obama, but it’s not so black and white.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  18. Ropelight– Before this insanely overlong election season is over most of us will be sick to death of all the candidates and their personal quirks and their stump speeches and their commercials. But I believe the electorate will be most sick of Barack Obama, because he’s had a three year head start. And he is destroying America in front of our eyes.

    I go to bed and sleep soundly every night secure in the knowledge that I will vote for the team R nominee– whomever that individual happens to be. Anybody we put up against Obama is better than Obama. By a mile. And our country cannot survive four more years of Barack Obama. ABO!!!

    elissa (451af6)

  19. May I suggest Megyn Kelly?

    Isn’t that what it’s all boiling down to?

    Let’s just nominate actors who look great on TV in the debate arena, who have invested the ridiculous time it takes to have a recitation on everything?

    This is cutting Perry way too much slack, though. Had Perry delivered a B- performance, I don’t think we’d be seeing so much complaining.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  20. Drew, Dustin, and elissa:

    I should have expanded on the not-Romney category to include surrogates, beards, and cat’s paws. Several current GOP candidates would fall into the ranks of default losers to Obama. Perry just might be one of them. His general sympathy for illegals could very well be the kiss of death.

    If Perry got the nod, I’d be back in a John McCain state of mind. OTOH I wouldn’t vote for Obama unless someone was holding a gun to my head, but OTOH the alternative of an illegal coddling pretender just wouldn’t generate much enthusiasm either.

    ropelight (6c9774)

  21. Perry had support
    before people were exposed
    to vapidity

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  22. Herman Cain is teed up to do well at the FL straw poll. yippppeeeee!

    tifosa (603a7d)

  23. that said, if he goes on to prove he can speak a coherent thought without a train derailment and somehow becomes the Republican nominee, I would vote for him in a heartbeat over King Barry ∅.

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  24. admit it, you’d vote for “a can of tuna” over Obama. (Please answer in haiku form :)

    tifosa (603a7d)

  25. what is Perry’s Plan?
    smirks, Gomer Pyle-like presence
    ain’t gonna cut it!

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  26. To anyone contemplating going 3rd-party just remember,
    as you satisfy your need for purity,
    your political and philosophical opponent who currently resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue,
    will be the one sending names to the Senate to fill vacancies within the Federal Judiciary –
    particularly SCOTUS,
    and will be appointing Cabinet/Agency heads to rain-down a new monsoon of regulatory doom upon this country you profess to love.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  27. Tiffy sure does like to prove that it is nothing but a partisan hack troll.

    JD (318f81)

  28. I’m told tifosa
    used to be una hermosa
    until he/she bleu
    Antonio Villaraigosa

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  29. Please, JD, that is giving it more credit than it deserves.
    It only aspires to be a partisan hack troll.
    Right now, whatever it is (but it resembles one of those “shovel ready jobs” Gary Johnson was talking about),
    it gets scraped off the bottom of my shoe.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  30. Thad McCotter and Judge Robert Bork have hopped aboard the Romney Express.

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  31. 28…Laugh of the Day!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  32. 30…The Establishment is calling-the-rolls.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  33. Romney v. Perry, is the current iteration of
    Rockefeller v. Goldwater;
    with all that that implies!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  34. just curious, do you get your language from the Constitution or the Bible?

    tifosa (603a7d)

  35. tifosa–see how easy it is?

    Yes I admit it
    I’d vote for can of tuna
    over Obama

    elissa (451af6)

  36. Romney, Perry like
    fire in belly versus
    Private Pyle so far

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  37. If you nominate Perry, you ensure that there will be a pro-sovereignty third party candidate. Conservative pundits will be spending all next year trying to guilt trip conservatives that they better vote for Perry or Obama will win. Does that sound like fun to you?

    j curtis (a66c20)

  38. not tunas with good
    taste, just tunas what taste good
    says Charlie Tuna

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  39. colonel’s heart go out
    to dustin and ian cuz
    it must be painful

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  40. third party talk plays
    right into Dem wet dream to
    re-elect bumble

    elissa (451af6)

  41. ______________________________________________

    The two party system moves to the middle under the idea a lot of people will accept a compromise.

    Not sure if it’s a sign of just how oddly leftwing much of the populace is right now, but based on various recent polls, Obama (aka Jeremiah Wright’s buddy) continues to get way more benefit of the doubt than any “goddamn America!” politician should ever receive—past, present and future. However, I’m not factoring in things like the surprising outcome of the recent special election in New York City to replace the infamous Weiner guy.

    OTOH, there was the flip side to that election, when voters in another Congressional district in New York threw caution to the wind, switched off their common sense, and gave thumbs up to a liberal/Democrat.

    I don’t take anything for granted. Moreover, in the thread under the posting about the end of DADT, I did observe a peculiar undercurrent of new-age liberal sentiment in a variety of people. THAT is why the tactics — and not just the politics or ideology — of the Republican candidate in 2012 are forced to accommodate a certain amount of squishiness. IOW, while I have no problem with (and prefer) a staunch conservative on the ballot in 2012, too many other people apparently will respond differently.

    Then again, what happened in that district in New York City a few weeks ago is what dreams (at least the ones I have) are made of. But it’s far too crucial to remove the current occupant of the Oval Office (aka President Goddamn America) to rely on dreams and wishes.

    Mark (411533)

  42. 33 addendum….
    President Millstone is no LBJ.

    Oh, I’m just reminded:

    Happy Birthday! Tony Bennett, #85!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  43. I hear 2 issues that trouble Republicans about the GOP candidates:

    1. The first issue is whether a candidate can plausibly debate and beat Obama.

    2. The second issue is whether the candidate is conservative enough.

    My impression is that issue 1 concerns Republicans when it comes to candidates like Bachmann, Santorum, Cain, and Perry (because of his poor debate performances). On the other hand, issue 2 concerns Republicans when it comes to candidates like Romney and Huntsman, as well as Perry (on immigration).

    I think what’s hurting Perry right now is Republicans have doubts about him on both issues. He obviously needs to improve his debate performances and, if he does, I suspect it will help him a great deal. But I also think he can help his chances by working on his immigration talking points — especially by explaining the difference between securing the border and educating state residents.

    It’s the federal government’s job to secure the border, and Perry should point out how Texas state and local governments funded and sent law enforcement to the Mexican border because Obama wouldn’t. At Perry’s request, the Texas Legislature passed tougher Voter ID laws that it looks like the federal government will challenge. Perry should also reiterate how he’s worked to secure the border with a fence in urban areas, where it makes sense, and with other resources where it doesn’t.

    But, to me, making in-state tuition available to illegal immigrants who reside in and were educated in Texas and are seeking citizenship, is up to Texas. So I’d like to see Perry frame this as a 10th Amendment issue rather than a “heartless Americans” issue. If border states decide to fund and educate in-state residents before out-of-state residents, so be it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. Mark, that upstate NY bi-election just proves the danger of conservatives going 3rd-party.
    The Dems recruited a long-time Dem to run as a “tea party” advocate, splitting the GOP vote in the district.
    The winning Dem received the historical average of Dem votes in that district going back almost a Century; but the GOP vote was split, handing her the victory.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  45. in limbo contest
    how looow can he go? now at
    thirty six percent*

    (*new economist/YouGov poll)

    elissa (451af6)

  46. DRJ, I put very little in Millsone’s “debate” abilities, as he won’t be able to bring TOTUS.
    Without that crutch, he’s even up – or even behind – Perry, who seems much more able “thinking on his feet”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  47. “Millsone’s”….Ah, Hell, you know who I mean.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  48. _______________________________________________

    will be the one sending names to the Senate to fill vacancies within the Federal Judiciary

    Nothing irritates me more than when people of the right overlook factors like the one you mention and believe there is even less at stake in the question of who does or doesn’t occupy the White House. Or when a percentage of Republican voters muse that — for my-way-or-the-highway reasons — 4 or 8 years can pass by under the guidance of a liberal White House administration without major consequences far into the future.

    I continue to read about foolish, idiotic court rulings handed down by people who were appointed to the judiciary by (drum roll, please) Jimmy Carter in the late 1970s. Or a time that’s over 30 years ago in the past.

    It’s like a rotten gift that keeps on giving.

    Mark (411533)

  49. Heh- Never forget the softball questions Barry was forced to field and anguish over during the 2008 debate season–both against Hillary and then against McCain. I do think he’ll be pressed a little harder this time, but it’ll still mostly be the same MFM crew working in tandem to help cover his sorry butt.

    elissa (451af6)

  50. AD,

    I agree with elissa. The GOP nominee will essentially be outnumbered in every Obama debate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  51. Yes, the MSM-types who will be selected for the Moderator/Panel positions will attempt to serve up softballs to Pres.Millstone, but when it comes time for a response from Perry/Romney, he needs to be able to attack the policy of the President in a manner that the press would not wish to.
    And, if the press then asks him to respond to the initial query that he ignored, ignore it again and bore-in on the weakness of the President.

    As we have seen on numerous occassions, if you get him “off his game”, and get under his skin, he reacts poorly.
    That has to be the goal:
    Goad him into an un-Presidential Moment.
    He’s Easy!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  52. I suggest asking Obama to name America’s intercontinental railroads and 57 states.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  53. Mark–I agree with you. In many respects I have greater contempt for the “steadfast” self-important purists on the right who refused to vote for McCain and stayed home in protest, than I feel for the poor saps who voted for Obama because they were duped and blinded by the unicorns and fairy dust.

    elissa (451af6)

  54. In Austrian.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  55. I’d guess that there is virtually NOBODY who voted for Obama who wishes they had voted McCain.

    tifosa (603a7d)

  56. DRJ

    Oh I think the MSM will invite Ron Paul to the Obama Perry debates….

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  57. DRJ–you do have mean streak don’t you?

    elissa (451af6)

  58. Oh, elissa, I don’t feel that way about voters. If McCain or Hillary had been elected, I honestly believe America would been even worse off over the long-term because we would have slid into socialism instead of jumped into it with Obama. At least now we have a clear ideological choice and an informed, energized electorate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  59. Or have Paul as the “Perry” mediator

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  60. The GOP nominee will essentially be outnumbered in every Obama debate.

    When outnumbered, the best defense is a good offense.
    Make your opponent fight on your terms, on your battlefield, at your pace.
    Stay inside his reach, as a boxer would say;
    or his OODA Loop, as is current in warfare.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  61. Eric,

    I hadn’t thought of that but I wouldn’t put it past the media, especially if Perry is the GOP nominee. They’d love to see Paul attack Perry.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  62. “making in-state tuition available to illegal immigrants who reside in and were educated in Texas and are seeking citizenship”

    DRJ – You repeated the part of Perry’s position that I don’t understand. People are in the country illegally but are seeking citizenship. How does that work if they are in the country illegally? Is there a separate naturalization process for illegal immigrants of which I am unaware?

    I just don’t understand what process is being discussed when those words are used. I understand the legal immigration and naturalization process, I think, but that is not what he’s talking about.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. ==I’d guess that there is virtually NOBODY who voted for Obama who wishes they had voted McCain==

    Oh tifosa, you don’t get out and talk to people much, do you? You really should.

    elissa (451af6)

  64. DRJ personifies, in a gracious, West Texas way, the saying:
    Don’t Mess With Texas!

    If you want any slack, you better earn it.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  65. elissa,

    Heh. I hope I’m not mean but I like sarcasm, which is one reason I like our clever Patterico. Still, I try not to use it online since it can easily be misinterpreted … but I couldn’t resist that.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  66. tiffy is in one of those thought-free bubbles of isolation.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  67. I looked at the Collegeboard’s (ACT) website and in the in-state tuition – the main residency test I could see for PA, MASS and AZ is the address of your high school transcript

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  68. “I’d guess that there is virtually NOBODY who voted for Obama who wishes they had voted McCain.”

    tifosa – A large number of people voted for Obama in 2008 because they did not want to be considered racists. A larger group of people will not vote for him in 2012 because they do not want to be considered idiots.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. DRJ– when I said you were mean, I was referring to your snark about the railroad, the 57 states and the Austrian language. I hope you knew that!

    elissa (451af6)

  70. Must be only in your world that there’s anything amusing/clever about condescension. Meh, GOTUNAGO! ;^)

    tifosa (603a7d)

  71. I’d guess that there is virtually NOBODY who voted for Obama who wishes they had voted McCain.

    Comment by tifosa — 9/24/2011 @ 12:36 pm


    JD (318f81)

  72. “They’d love to see Paul attack Perry.”

    Nor Luap brings teh funny wherever he goes.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  73. In your case, tiffy, condescension is being nice!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  74. ______________________________________________

    So I’d like to see Perry frame this as a 10th Amendment issue rather than a “heartless Americans” issue.

    I don’t know where this places me ideologically or politically, but if statistics indicated that a high percentage of children in general who share the background and history of the young adults Perry was defending did exactly what those specific teenagers manage to achieve (ie, enter and graduate from college), I would see things differently. But when data indicates that a very large number of Latino children do poorly academically, with only a fraction of them going on to college — and how that trend remains evident generation after generation — nothing else is as important to me.

    I’d give Perry kudos if he were to raise the dilemma of this subject in the future. That’s because I bet a huge majority of the populace — left, middle and right, Republican and Democrat — becomes teary eyed and idealistic when thinking of public education. To them, the funding of K to 12 is “so noble, uplifting, heroic, compassionate and civilized!”

    I suspect a good cross section of even folks on the right flinch at the idea of “funding for education and teachers” being a case of pouring dollars down the drain. Some of them may even believe that “education” is THE answer to offsetting decades of illegal immigration. Or sort of like those who thought the War on Poverty starting in the 1960s would be the salvation of urban America.

    Mark (411533)

  75. From Florida

    Romney can’t win so he is trying to sabotage a Perry win. I guess he is realizing too late that Thursday finished him off in Florida despite the applause of pundits.

    You cannot go into the backyard of Marco Rubio and demagogue immigration, especially when you have people living in Texas and other border states that perfectly understand what Perry and his Legislature did.

    Irrespective of the straw poll results, Romney will lose Florida to Perry and to Obama, if he is the GOP nominee.

    TheRightMan on September 24, 2011 at 3:41 PM

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  76. O/T- here’s something for our vaunted Econ team (Bernanke, Turbo-tax Timmy, and Pres.Millstone) to knaw at:

    “GEORGE Osborne (UK Chancellor of the Exchequer) warned Europe last night it has SIX WEEKS to fix the financial crisis as the world faced economic meltdown.”

    Obama to Soros: What do I do now?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  77. daleyrocks,

    I don’t know anything about the citizenship process or what is required to prove intent when applying for in-state tuition. Instead, I think Texas has opted for a pragmatic approach that assumes most applicants:

    1. were brought to the U.S. as children by their parents, probably from Mexico;

    2. have been educated in Texas public schools;

    3. have not done anything criminal that put them on the radar to be deported;

    4. will assert they are willing to apply for U.S. citizenship or have done so already, if it is legally available; and

    5. want to stay in the U.S. and probably will continue to live in the U.S., unless they are deported.

    Obviously, not everyone meets these criteria but I think it’s fair to assume most of the ones who want to go to college will come close. And since we’re not going to deport everyone, I think Texans believe we’ll be a lot better off if we give these in-state students an equal chance to better themselves. It will help them and it will help Texas. It won’t help out-of-state students who want to come to our schools but this is a place where we have to put Texas first.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  78. As to FL, and Romney v. Perry;
    Byron York’s newest column quotes a FL GOP’er as saying that they think Perry is a “flash in the pan”.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  79. Jeb Bush and Tom Ridge for Huntsman. If Karl Rove jumps on boad unleashes the $$ avalanche, game ovah. Huntsman may be your tuna can. :^)

    tifosa (603a7d)

  80. elissa:

    DRJ– when I said you were mean, I was referring to your snark about the railroad, the 57 states and the Austrian language. I hope you knew that!

    That’s what I thought you meant, plus I realize we’re both kidding. But it would be fun to see someone ask Obama that.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  81. Did someone belch?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  82. Tifosa is well and truly a moron, with sincere apologies to morons everywhere.

    JD (318f81)

  83. Forget Romney. He’s a big government boy to the bone. He’s also guided largely by personal ambition, which is why he flips on positions, looking for the one that will get him a nomination or election victory.

    The Republicans can run anyone they please, but if they run Romney, I’ll likely vote for a 3rd Party (Libertarian, maybe) candidate as a protest. Unless, I chicken out and vote for anyone who can beat Obama.

    Perry ain’t that great either, but I like him a bit better than Romney, despite his positions on immigration and free handouts for illegals.

    Hopefully, neither one of them will get the nomination, and an actual right winger will be running for POTUS next year, instead of a Democrat in GOP clothing.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  84. DRJ, better than a question would be a “passing comment” from his debate opponent, as it would be a tool to “get under his skin”.
    The one thing that Pres.Millstone cannot stand is to be held up to public ridicule – the man has absolutely no sense-of-humor.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  85. Dave, I think you are selling Perry short.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  86. tifosa – You mean well, bless your heart.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  87. DRJ–did you see Andrew Malcolm’s column? The gaffes are bugging him, too. He is channeling you!

    elissa (451af6)

  88. DRJ @77 – It sounds like you have as much clarity as I do. I think Perry makes it sound like there is some actual process to your #4 that I have not seen anyone describe, which I think is highly misleading.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  89. elissa, I heard that Harry Reid is looking for a bridge in NV that he can push Obumble off of.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  90. Tifosa there is nothing amusing in a small dick.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  91. Doh, you really shouldn’t use language such as that; the next thing we’ll know, spvrty will be back.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  92. peewee johnson you
    give new meaning to wisdom

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  93. Mark:

    I don’t know where this places me ideologically or politically, but if statistics indicated that a high percentage of children in general who share the background and history of the young adults Perry was defending did exactly what those specific teenagers manage to achieve (ie, enter and graduate from college), I would see things differently.

    You sound pragmatic, and it would make you a great Texan!

    On a more serious note, Hispanic students make up just over 50% of Texas public school students and is the fastest growing group of students. As the link notes, “Hispanics have become the first in our nation to drop out and the last to head to college.” This nationwide problem and the fact Texas has so many Hispanic students is the main reason Texas has such a poor graduation rate, but we are working to change it. I can’t find more recent data but Texas graduation rates improved from 1994-2004. Texas is also working to improve Hispanic college attendance, but one “drawback” is that in general Hispanics don’t like debt so they are reluctant to incur student loans. (See why I think Hispanics are natural conservatives?)

    Finally, I can’t tell you how many of these students are illegal immigrants but FAIR estimates 11% of all Texas students are illegal.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  94. Doh, when your mind is on one track chances are you’re riding the train. ’nuff about yer cargo dude.

    tifosa (603a7d)

  95. #89, if Harry Reid is looking for an appropriate precipice, he should direct his attention to Nevada’s state seal. The RR bridge over Crown Point Pit might serve his purposes.

    ropelight (6c9774)

  96. daleyrocks,

    It may be misleading but count me in, because it makes me feel better to say they want citizenship even if there’s no way they can actually pursue it. The point to me is that as long as they are living here (often for generations), we need to give them the opportunities to educate themselves. Illegal Hispanic children make up a sizeable chunk of Texas population and many are capable of doing more than manual labor. As long as our public school system educates them without regard to their immigration status, I want to give them the same college opportunities other Texas students have.

    I also support ending the requirement that we educate illegal immigrant children but as long as it’s required, then I don’t understand why we should treat them different when it comes to college when we know they will continue to live here and use our resources. I’d much rather make them more productive workers by letting those who can attend college, attend.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  97. Gotta love if yo oppose illegals your anti-life.

    Keep it up perrytards.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  98. Yes we’re taking our oders from anti-life orginzations such as Numbers USA.

    Screw you racist anti-white nazis.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  99. I wouldn’t double down on Perry.

    Three big issues:

    1) Multiple demonstrable cases in which he hasn’t acted as the conservative he says he is and the fact that he’s defending these positions: A) In-state tuition for illegals, B) HPV mandate (would have been OK saying he should’ve handled as opt-in, but then fibbed all over it trying to defend)

    2) Miserably weak responses on foreign policy (and other questions). That “Pakistan rogue nukes” question was a train wreck. Andy Levy said, “Thank you, Miss Texas.” And that hit it on the head. Perry answered that question with all the skill of a Miss USA contestant…and not one of the bright ones either.

    3) GOP Voters are looking for The One. And we all know what that means. Not The One that they agree with 100%. Not The One who’s gonna fix everything. Not The One who’s the very most conservative.

    GOP Voters are looking for The One who can beat The One. The Obama Slayer.

    And seeing Perry stand there looking like a dope when asked questions by the likes of Brett Baer or his fellow candidates just doesn’t cut it.

    GOP Voters KNOW that they need someone who can stand up next to Obama and not be towered over intellectually.

    Three weeks ago, Perry looked like The Obama Slayer because he cut a more manly figure, and bore a record of success in the most crucial area, job growth. He looked twice the man that Obama does.

    But the debates have helped us all see how Perry handles adversity (and sometimes that’s just a simple question) …and he’s stumbled very badly. GOP Voters aren’t going to stick with him just for ideology or for his track record. If they picture the general election debates 1 year from now, and when both candidates are on TV 24/7 fielding questions, they’re not going to want it to be Obama vs Perry.

    Mitt’s not perfect, but he can stand on his feet next to Obama (as could Newt, possibly Cain, and, looking at the most recent debate, Santorum). But not Perry. No amount of coaching in the world is gonna prepare him for debating Obama. (And I’m of the firm belief that Obama’s not a great debater…I think he lost every debate to Hillary. But he’s the President and he cuts a cool figure that sets the bar high for opponents. So no one elderly need apply and certainly not a bumbler like Perry.)

    It’s not going to be Perry.

    koam @wittier (921256)

  100. Careful according to Faux conservaturd from hot Air your a far-right nazi.

    I hope the Piece of shats words come back to bite him.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  101. #96, DRJ, so, what do you tell a citizen student denied admission to UT so an illegal could attend on an affirmative action appointment?

    ropelight (6c9774)

  102. “It may be misleading but count me in, because it makes me feel better to say they want citizenship even if there’s no way they can actually pursue it. The point to me is that as long as they are living here (often for generations), we need to give them the opportunities to educate themselves.”

    DRJ – I understand what you are saying, but the position is a an admission that we will never enforce our immigration laws, so why bother trying. That’s why I have a problem with it. It is de facto rather de jure amnesty.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  103. I don’t agree with NumbersUSA by the way so you can drop dead ignorant trolls.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  104. daleyrocks,

    Thank you for raising this issue because it made me look up the Texas statute, and it’s very interesting. TEC 54.052 et seq. requires that, to qualify for in-state tuition, a student must:

    Have resided in Texas for 3 years prior to high school graduation or receipt of a GED;

    Resided in Texas for a year prior to attending college (which could overlap with the 3-year period);

    This provision applies to all students seeking in-state tuition, whether they are legal residents, citizens, or illegal immigrants. In addition:

    If the student is not a U.S. citizen or Permanent Resident, he/she had to file an affidavit with his/her [college] institution, indicating an intent to apply for Permanent Resident status as soon as able to do so.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  105. Further to my 102, Perry has given no indication that he would change that position if elected president, so amnesty I think is his basic default position.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. “indicating an intent to apply for Permanent Resident status as soon as able to do so.”

    DRJ – It is, I believe, a meaningless representation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. daleyrocks,

    The DREAM Act was amnesty because it provided a path to citizenship. The Texas law is different. It’s no more amnesty than it’s amnesty to let illegal immigrant children get a public K-12 education.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  108. ropelight

    Texans have this thing where we decide who goes to our schools and who doesnt and who pays for this and who pays for that

    Kinda like other states.

    Me, I was wondering about this instate tuition – as a whole – and how it is going to cause problems for everyone – not just illegals, Texas has grown so fast and several if not all of the core Texas schools are world renown for their education and many citizens are denied entry into those schools for out-of-state and international students wanting the best education in the world.

    Being denied admission, is there a quota of out of state vs in-state populations? I couldnt find anything definitive

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  109. Perry has said he is against the DREAM Act because it’s amnesty and he’s not for amnesty. He said it this week in Florida.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  110. “The Texas law is different.”

    DRJ – I agree, which is why I said it was de facto rather than de jure amnesty. Perry is not enforcing the law, which admittedly is federal. If he is not concerned about it at the state level, why should we have any confidence he would have any interest in it at the federal level? I don’t based on what he is said. I am heartless.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  111. DRJ he is a flip-flopping idiot who is giving Flopney a run for his money.

    The perrytards will accuse you of racism fo rbeing against illegal immigration.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  112. “Perry has said he is against the DREAM Act because it’s amnesty and he’s not for amnesty.”

    DRJ – I keep going back to points I have raised before. How does he prevent the illegals and their foreign born children from becoming a burden on society, something he has publicly stated he wishes to avoid. Legally they cannot work in this country.

    Again, the conclusion points to non-enforcement, although he has also said he supports a guest worker program.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  113. that creepy Santorum douchebag with the nasty nasty google problem made it sound like all the illegals going to college in Texas were going to UT – that’s silly.

    The vast majority are going to community college programs. And good for them. A single illegal immigrant what goes to college is worth a dozen red-blooded all-american piggy piggy union whores I think.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  114. DRJ – His rhetoric just does not match reality.

    Thanks for the discussion.

    Out for a bit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  115. ropelight:

    #96, DRJ, so, what do you tell a citizen student denied admission to UT so an illegal could attend on an affirmative action appointment?

    Consider suing, because what I support has nothing to do with affirmative action. I oppose affirmative action and it’s ruining UT.

    On the other hand, if the illegal immigrant student has better grades and test scores than the citizen student, I’d tell the citizen student to go to another school and work harder in the future.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  116. DRJ

    They more you answer it the more they will just keep asking the question, at some point you have to realize that this really isnt a discussion they want to vent.

    But thats just my opinion, Texas seems to be everyone’s business but other states have these wide and far ranging systems whichlet children from dozens of other states attend at the instate tuition under reciprocal programs.

    This practice somehow doesnt seem to engender the same territorial outrage and hand wringing.

    Out of all the schools my daughters and their school mates who received applications, only west Point required a certified Birth Certificate.

    UT, A&M didnt ask for one even though their high school address was from an overseas country,

    To satisfy UT my and my wifes company indicated that we were transferred out of houston to doha and the intention is that we will return one day, day to be determined, and that was more than satisfactory for at least 60 other children from my wifes company who almost exclusively attend Texas schools.

    So, this outrage to me seems more politically expedient than an actual issue that’s keeping people up at night.

    Its something the pundits ponder over because they have nothing to talk about for another few months

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  117. As budget allocations for public colleges and universities have come under increasing pressure, admissions for out-of-state and international students have expanded in proportion to a decline in in-state admissions. Bottom line is that outlanders pay more so residents get short shrift and affirmative action only adds to the inequality home grown students suffer.

    ropelight (6c9774)

  118. daley and DohBiden,

    I don’t think Perry is being inconsistent — I think he’s being pragmatic, which is what leaders do — but I have family members who agree with you and swear they won’t vote for him because of it. I’d be a lot happier with Perry than Romney but I can live with both. However, I completely understand if people feel they can’t vote for someone because of particular issues.

    I appreciate the discussion, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  119. I like Perry pretty well, enough to vote for him.

    His actions and stands on immigration and handouts/special privileges to illegal aliens are totally unacceptable, however, and I’m none too happy about the executive order/HPV vaccine thing.

    But, he might be the best thing available.

    We’ll see in a year or so.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  120. Ok, I do see that the race of declareds has now devolved to Romney vs. NotRomney. For the reasons you mention, Perry will not be cause to fold the revolt like pulling a deuce in the hole.

    I could be wrong too about the intransigence of TEAs, that they will end like reeds blown in the wind, e.g., Rubio or West actually would take V.P. irrelevance with Romney when the outcome will certainly be the outer darkeness in four.

    But if all that comes true it will certainly mean the TEA attempt to coopt from within is a failure and time to abandon the GOP altogether.

    gary gulrud (790d43)

  121. let illegal immigrant children get a public K-12 education.

    We don’t “let” illegal immigrant children into K-12, we have been “ordered” to by SCOTUS.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  122. Whatever we have perrytards complaining about far-right anti-illegal immigration versions of planned parenthood.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  123. In Illinois and also in Wisconsin, I believe, there have been concerns raised recently with respect to admittance policies to the big state schools. The scores and minimum grades for admitting some black and Hispanic students were shown to be considerably lower than the scores of some white students who were rejected. Everyone knows this has been going on for a while due to EEO but apparently the “spread” has gotten worse to the consternation of some professors and many alums. Even without the published studies I already knew this, because the brainy daughter of friends (white) was not accepted at the U of I, but her best friend and buddy (who is Hispanic and a great kid) was, with scholarship, even though both her GPA and test scores were lower and her activities at the same H.S. were less impressive.

    I really am trying to keep an open mind about all of this, and maybe I am missing something– but how can it be possible that Dream Act-type policies for admission to state schools for thousands of illegals, when coupled with already existing (some would say abusive) EEO policies, do not further dilute opportunities for any state’s best students to get into the very best state schools. There is only so much room to begin with, and it seems the pool of “competition” is getting larger and larger.

    elissa (451af6)

  124. the Orrin Hatch Dream Act is a different thing entirely – that explicitly uses college as a path to citizenship

    that’s not what Texas is doing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  125. elissa

    “thousands of illegals”

    I dont think there are many illegals attending as the cost of Texas schools in state is quite high as are other universities – even the junior colleges are getting rather pricey

    Another thing Perry did was be the first Governor to redo tenure and base it on productivity not longevity.

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  126. First governor to try to redo tenure and base it on productivity


    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  127. Twitter: Cain won FL straw poll w/37% Perry 15% Romney14% Santorum 11% But the excitement, HUNTSMAN DOUBLED HIS NUMBER at 2%

    tifosa (603a7d)

  128. ==Comment by EricPWJohnson — 9/24/2011 @ 2:43 pm==

    Well, that number would be good info to nail down, EPWJ. Perhaps a way for Perry to address this flap and “misunderstanding” is to tell us (and the other debaters) approximately how many/few illegal students are truly involved? I am certainly under the impression it is more than you are suggesting. What are the facts? The numbers themselves would not alter some of the important issues daley has raised, but they certainly might alter perceptions that in-state residents are having to give up coveted and rare seats at University to non-citizens and that taxpayers are subsidizing them.

    elissa (451af6)

  129. tifosa,

    Thanks for the good news from Florida. Having a competitive primary is the best thing that could happen to the GOP.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  130. elissa,

    According to the Dallas Morning News, an estimated 12,300 or 1% of Texas college students were illegal immigrants getting in-state tuition in Fall 2010. By the end of 2010 that number had risen to 16,000. And as noted in the first link, a significant drawback in the law is that students who require credentialing (like nurses) are unable to practice after they graduate. That’s why I respect people who disagree on this, because it’s not all a win-win.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. Thanks much, DRJ. Basic facts are always good to have for useful discussion and when trying to learn and understand stuff.

    elissa (451af6)

  132. Comment by elissa — 9/24/2011 @ 2:34 pm

    To The Progressive, such admissions policies are part and parcel of the same “spread the wealth” philosophy that drives their “economics”:
    Take from the Haves, and give to the Have-Nots!

    It is sooooo Egalitarian, is it not?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  133. DRJ, there are 1.23MM college students in TX?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  134. Gotta love the left wanting to not allow two consenting adults bashing their brains out………and we’re the nanny state?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  135. in tomorrowland almost all the plants are edible

    a lot of people what go to disney don’t know that

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  136. 1.445 million, to be exact, but that includes 2-year and 4-year institutions.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  137. I suspect more “affidavit” college students attend 2-year institutions than 4-year colleges, but that’s just my guess.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  138. I could be wrong too about the intransigence of TEAs

    yes, you could be wrong, gahwee.

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  139. AD:

    We don’t “let” illegal immigrant children into K-12, we have been “ordered” to by SCOTUS.

    True, but it’s the law and Texas has to deal with the population we have. We want the best workers and educational opportunity is part of having the best workers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  140. Happy Birthday! Tony Bennett, #85!

    I left my heart… where did I leave it??? You kids get offa my lawn!

    ColonelHaiku (87d081)

  141. 1.445MM!
    I forget that you can’t seem to turn around in TX without bumping into a JC.
    That 1% figure is more reasonable when you consider the JC population, which is probably 2/3rd’s or more part-time.

    As to the SCOTUS decision:
    It is just another brick on the “Welcome Wall” that says “Come on in!”.

    What you encourage/subsidize, you get more of;
    What you discourage/tax, you get less of.
    We are masters at sending mixed-messages.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (2e4e7f)

  142. it’s 14 months to the election. don’t count Perry out just yet. The only person you can count out is the guy who already dropped out. I’ve already forgotten his name.

    Jeez, you people want your nominee THIS WEEKEND, apparently.

    Jones (7e5261)

  143. We’re a picky and demanding group of internet folks, Jones. It’s part of what makes us so much fun to be with.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  144. elissa DRJ

    here ya go all the official info you need on Texas higher education

    do not operate heavy machinery, fry turkeys, or juggle flaming bowling pins while reading these reports…

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  145. Thanks, Eric. That’s where the data from my comment #137 came from. Click on “Enrollment — Statewide” under Quick Facts in the left sidebar. If I have time, I’ll look later and see if I can find illegal-immigrant-specific data.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  146. #140. “True, but it’s the law…”

    Well maybe you should start to treat that law with the same awesome respect that mestizos have for _our_ law.

    The whole under-the-table point of illegal alien labor is that it be CHEAP labor. If you educate them or their children, that takes them out of the cheapest labor pool, and then guess what? More will arrive to occupy that bottom rung that you vacated out of mindless niceness. It’s a pure matter of hydraulics. This is part of how a trickle becomes a flood.

    They have no claim to a promise of a better life for their progeny –ever– because they are lawless invaders, who barged in here in open contempt of our laws. What they are owed is a prison term, and their endless children are owed a quick permanent one-way bus trip back to their own country. Period. There is no covenant with them, of the type which we make with legitimate immigrants. They and their children and their children’s children are owed nothing. We made no promises to them, nor to their children. The promises come with legal entry. I don’t see how it’s unjust, or “punishing” anyone, merely to withhold from them something that isn’t rightfully theirs. I want to live in Trump Tower. Is it “punishing” my children that they can’t live there because their dad doesn’t own a condo in it?

    We never said we wanted illegal alien bank presidents or college professors and we don’t need such a thing. What we said we needed were poorly-paid drudges, and that is what they agreed to: to be an underground helot class. Now they say they want to “come out from the shadows”? Guess what, the “shadows” were the terms and conditions of employment! The “shadows” were the point of the whole ugly inexcusable deal. Without the “shadows,” there is no deal. Go home.

    I don’t think a permanent helot class is healthy for American democracy, but that’s simply another way of saying they must go. If we are to have helots then let them remain such permanently, because that is the entire point of having helots. And if they don’t like it, well, Mexico awaits. And if _we_ don’t like it, and we shouldn’t, then we must seal the border, cart them all home, and live as a free people. Because they’ll just keep sneaking back, til they learn to fix their own perfectly fixable country.

    Perry says if I disagree with him then I don’t have a heart. Bullsh!t. My problem is not that I don’t have a heart, it’s that I don’t have an infinite wallet, I don’t have infinite patience for a foreign and unwelcome people eating up our children’s sustenance, and I don’t have enough space for every single pauper on earth who shows up uninvited and asks, not for a handout, but to move in with me for keeps.

    And if this nonsense continues then I won’t have a country, either.

    d. in c. (0b8a2b)

  147. DRJ

    I thought as much its interesting that Texas lumps 2 year and 4 year colleges together

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  148. I have to leave for the evening but there are a couple of things I haven’t said that I would like to touch on. First, I’m a conservative and I believe in competition and incentives. I understand not wanting to do things that encourage illegal immigration, but America is a land of freedom and opportunity. Couple with that is the fact the law requires us to educate and provide emergency health care for illegal immigrants and, as long as these facts exist, Mexican immigrants will always want to come to the U.S. I don’t think a policy that provides in-state tuition for Texas residents, including illegal immigrants, is going to significantly impact that dynamic. (In addition, Americans are flocking to Texas as it is. Is it any wonder that Mexicans want to come here, too?)

    Forecasts say Texas’ population will be 50% Hispanic by 2025, possibly sooner. Unless something changes in American law, odds are 10% or more will be illegal immigrants and this isn’t a new trend. They are Texas’ future and I’m selfish for myself, my kids and my State: I want everyone who already lives here to be as assimilated, included, and educated as possible. So my question to Rick Perry isn’t why he wants educate Texas residents. My questions are “Do you support e-Verify and sanctuary cities?” and “How will you secure the border?”

    PS to d. in c. — I believe in obeying the law. Reading your comment, I suspect there are many other things we disagree about, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  149. So the left believes that electric cars are good for the environment even though it is not……….Thanks but no thanks flip flopney but we don’t need you in the WH.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  150. ________________________________________________

    Forecasts say Texas’ population will be 50% Hispanic by 2025, possibly sooner.

    That statistic makes me think of an article in today’s LA Times, from a columnist who’s both a female and of the left—ie, issues related to children and the idea of public education being on hallowed ground probably are embraced by her to an even greater degree.

    There is a saying that “demographics is destiny.”

    There also is the rhyme of “all the king’s horses and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty together again.”

    Some of what’s discussed in this thread goes beyond politics, in that all the “king’s horses” (Democrats and Republicans, and independents, etc) and all the “king’s men” (liberalism, centrism and conservatism) won’t be able to ever solve a good portion of the dilemma pointed out below. However, such groups and philosophies can make things worse. But they’ll also probably never get a really firm handle on these problems., Sandy Banks:

    Art teacher Jeremy Davidson skipped the annual back-to-school-night at Manual Arts High this week. He’d walked off the job the day before — after 10 years at the mid-city campus — done in by a group of unruly ninth-graders who’d hijacked his sixth-period drawing class. While Davidson was “trying to give a lesson on shading,” the troublemakers were “whacking each other with rulers, throwing paper across the room, getting up and walking around.”

    They blocked the door when he tried to close it, talked over him when he tried to teach.

    The first time it happened this semester, he summoned security “four times during the period and help never came.” Day after frustrating day, he said, the scenario replayed. And when he sought support, administrators met his request with a checklist: Have you contacted their parents? Have you encouraged the students? Have you treated them with respect?

    Davidson bristled at the implication. “Seven students needed to be removed, so I could teach the other 45…. And I’m expected to spend a week providing all this documentation, while these kids spend 50 minutes each day destroying the class for everyone else.”

    Davidson shared his story with me a few hours after he left campus. Two days earlier, he had emailed The Times, complaining about “the awful conditions” at Manual Arts. Still, I had to wonder, what kind of teacher abandons those students when the semester has barely begun? A teacher at the end of his rope, Davidson told me; one who has had his fill of broken promises and dashed hopes.

    “You keep raising your expectations, but nothing changes,” he said. “After all these years, I look around and see that things are just getting worse.

    These two postings in the letters forum under the article were among the most interesting to me…

    Fedupteacher at 1:05 PM September 24, 2011:
    In fact, a so called “education specialist” (a group of them were hired over the Summer) came into my classroom to observe the unruly freshmen. He told them they’re not at Muir Middle School anymore and their behavior was not acceptable. They ignored him. After five minutes of his futile efforts trying to appeal to them rationally, he started yelling at one of the students, “Get the hell out of this room and wait in the hall.” He yelled at more students and thankfully took several out of the room with him. He couldn’t handle for 5 minutes what I’d been dealing with for two weeks, and he did everything the principal said not to do when dealing with students. I wonder if Mike McGalliard or Rupi Boyd would have handled the situation any better than the “education specialist” who’s earning $110,000 a year?

    plumbstar1 at 7:59 AM September 24, 2011:
    During the 2004–2005 school year, [Manual Arts High School] had 3,766 students, including:

    3,054 Hispanics (81.1%)
    701 African-Americans (18.6%)
    5 White Americans (1%)
    4 Asian Americans (1%)
    2 Native Americans (1%)

    As of 2010, the dropout rate at Manual Arts was 68%.

    If Nidal Hasan, responsible for the massacre at Fort Hood, was given the ultimate in politically-correct treatment even within the confines of the (supposedly no-nonsense, pro-disciplinary) US military, why expect things to be any better in the context of a public school system, which is generally dominated by a culture and employees who are out-and-out of the left?, October 2008:

    The Latino Education Crisis: The Consequences of Failed Social Policies, by Patricia Gandara and Frances Contreras, offers an unflinching portrait of Hispanics’ educational problems and reaches a scary conclusion about those problems’ costs. The book’s analysis is all the more surprising given that its authors are liberals committed to bilingual education, affirmative action, and the usual slate of left-wing social programs.

    Hispanics are underachieving academically at an alarming rate, the authors report. Though second- and third-generation Hispanics make some progress over their first-generation parents, that progress starts from an extremely low base and stalls out at high school completion. High school drop-out rates — around 50 percent — remain steady across generations. Latinos’ grades and test scores are at the bottom of the bell curve. The very low share of college degrees earned by Latinos has not changed for more than two decades. Currently only one in ten Latinos has a college degree.

    Mark (411533)

  151. Sorry but the first part was not in refrence to the 2nd part.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  152. “So my question to Rick Perry isn’t why he wants educate Texas residents. My questions are “Do you support e-Verify and sanctuary cities?” and “How will you secure the border?””

    DRJ – Thanks. I agree. I think my questions were broader than just the tuition issue since Perry’s remarks have been broader as well. It’s just that for me his remarks about the tuition issue naturally lead to the same types of questions you raise above based on his answers.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  153. I’ve seen what you describe upclose, Mark, but it’s more of the institutional culture that the schools operate in,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  154. DRJ — you’re a civilized and insightful writer, but I suspect you’re not exactly what one would call a dab hand at the fine art of negotiation. In your scenario, here’s what happens (in fact it’s what’s happening now)…

    WELL-MEANING CENTER-RIGHT GUY: I want everyone to be as assimilated, educated and included as possible. To that end, President Liberal, what will you do to secure the border?

    PRESIDENT LIBERAL: What will I do?! (SNORT) Exactly nothing. Why should I? You already told me your bottom line in the opening round! Nope, we’re just gonna keep on with the process until we drive you hate-filled tea-tards into extinction and re-make the country into some nightmare thing you’d never recognize in a zillion years!

    WELL-MEANING CENTER-RIGHT GUY: Okay, fine. Just, whatever you do, please don’t call me a racist.

    A while ago I read, I forget where (might have even been on this blog), an insightful little remark that a liberal lawmaker said to a conservative in the California state legislature not too long ago…

    LIBERAL LAWMAKER: Here’s how it works — if I win, I get to take your money. But if you win, you only get to keep your money. There isn’t a third option where if you win, you get to take _my_ money. So I only have to win once.

    Until we start taking _their_ money, as it were, nothing is going to change. Oh, look! It’s leftist Mitt Romney running against ultra-leftist Barack Obama!

    Democracy works, it really does!

    (Sorry if this sounds like too much snark, you’re a classy guy so it’s certainly not meant as a dig; it just seems to be the sharpest and fastest way to make the point.)

    d. in c. (c313fc)

  155. What they are owed is a prison term, and their endless children are owed a quick permanent one-way bus trip back to their own country.

    OK. That’s what they are owed.

    In a sense I think this is correct, though I do appreciate that their taxes paid for my education in Texas. DRJ has a point that an educated Texas is better.

    Don’t be surprised by that high number of Texans in school. We’ve got a large number of Universities. Even our second tier of schools, like University of Houston and Texas Tech, are quite excellent schools that would be flagships in 40 of the 50 states.

    I believe the highest ratio of books to people on the planet is Austin Texas, too.

    But our accent is loathed by the coastal elites, so we all be dumbasses.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  156. classy lady

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  157. Democracy works, it really does!

    (Sorry if this sounds like too much snark, you’re a classy guy so it’s certainly not meant as a dig; it just seems to be the sharpest and fastest way to make the point.)

    Comment by d. in c. — 9/24/2011 @ 6:43 pm

    DRJ is a lady.

    BTW, I think DRJ is probably quite adept at negotiation, but is dealing with reality.

    Your ‘what they are owed’ is not possible for a Texan government to accomplish. It’s like negotiating for a free car, or for North Korea to become peaceful.

    It appears your way around this is to just say ‘let’s ignore what the feds control’. OK… but we can’t.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  158. Michael tubolard wants to boycott Georgia

    When will the peronista left weigh in?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  159. Peron has transformed argentina to a hellhole but lets go to Argentina with 18& inflation.

    Obama will outdo them if he wins in 2012.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  160. what is Perry’s Plan?
    smirks, Gomer Pyle-like presence
    ain’t gonna cut it!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 9/24/2011 @ 11:41 am

    Um, yeah.

    I like how he led Texas, and I like how Texas works at least on 90% of issues (Which is a lot for someone like me).

    Perry can’t just say ‘look at Texas’. Romney will list out things, even in outline format. “1, this and that, 2, that and that and this, 3, bla bla that that this”

    It’s not asking for much to expect Perry to prepare such lists, and understand them. I assume that’s forthcoming. You know what they say about assumptions.

    /still think he’s the best option, but it does him no favors to pretend this is sufficient.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  161. the Kirchner clan, which are like the Clinton/Obama clan on steroids, Doh, her last victory was due in part to QE 2, thanks again Ben,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  162. When I’m depressed I eat some tasty sammin, rich in natural vitamins and nutrients.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  163. Romney-Don’t cry for me massivetwobits.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  164. some days tasty sammin’s just not enough – those are the days you’ll be glad for the healing protection of gardasil!

    Gardasil. Because some days tasty sammin just isn’t enough.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  165. _____________________________________________

    the Kirchner clan, which are like the Clinton/Obama clan on steroids

    I’m always interested in how leftism affects a nation and its populace, and on many occasions I’ve quipped that California is becoming America’s version of Greece/Mexico/France/Venezuela. I really should add Argentina to that mix.

    In case people believe the notion that “demographics is destiny” is the ultimate factor behind a society’s success or failure, they need look no further than a nation like Argentina to realize that politics/ideology trump just about everything else. That’s one reason I’ve often mused that if, as one example, the black or Latino community in the US suddenly became mostly conservative or truly centrist, instead of predominantly liberal and blindly loyal to the Democrat Party, it not only would be like a person going through an epiphany late in life, it would be like a version of the proverbial phoenix rising from the ashes.

    Argentina benefits from rich natural resources, a highly literate population, an export-oriented agricultural sector, and a diversified industrial base.

    Although one of the world’s wealthiest countries 100 years ago, Argentina suffered during most of the 20th century from recurring economic crises, persistent fiscal and current account deficits, high inflation, mounting external debt, and capital flight. A severe depression, growing public and external indebtedness, and a bank run culminated in 2001 in the most serious economic, social, and political crisis in the country’s turbulent history.

    Interim President Adolfo RODRIGUEZ SAA [of the right, and successor to years of generally liberal/Peronist presidents] declared a default – the largest in history – on the government’s foreign debt in December of that year, and abruptly resigned only a few days after taking office. His successor, Eduardo DUHALDE [a “centrist” within and by the standards of Argentina’s leftist Peronist Party], announced an end to the peso’s decade-long 1-to-1 peg to the US dollar in early 2002. The economy bottomed out that year, with real GDP 18% smaller than in 1998 and almost 60% of Argentines under the poverty line. Real GDP rebounded to grow by an average 8.5% annually over the subsequent six years, taking advantage of previously idled industrial capacity and labor, an audacious debt restructuring and reduced debt burden, excellent international financial conditions, and expansionary monetary and fiscal policies.

    Inflation also increased, however, during the administration of [leftist] President Nestor KIRCHNER, which responded with price restraints on businesses, as well as export taxes and restraints, and beginning in early 2007, with understating inflation data.

    Cristina FERNANDEZ DE KIRCHNER succeeded her husband as President in late 2007, and the rapid economic growth of previous years began to slow sharply the following year as government policies held back exports and the world economy fell into recession. The economy has rebounded strongly from the 2009 recession, but the government’s continued reliance on expansionary fiscal and monetary policies risks exacerbating already high inflation.

    Argentina: white (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%; mestizo, Amerindian, other 3%

    Mark (411533)

  166. The left got DDT banned at the cause of human life now will they try to ban inhalers thus killing asthma sufferers.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  167. I think the immigration answer is getting the attention because its a hot button issue, but the big picture issue is that Perry has not capitalized on the newcomer bounce and is stumbling badly. I had high hopes for Perry but ask yourself this – if he is making this many unforced errors and and communicating so poorly, what is he going to do when the media does the inevitable and makes a concerted effort to paint him as Scary Crazy Conservative Monster Who Wants To Kill Your Kids Guy?? The Worst Than Palin and Bush Put Together Guy?

    And Perry is doing all he can to hand the ammo to the media, even before they start in on him. There is a very good reason that Romney is leading the generic ballot against Obama and Perry isn’t – Perry will excite the Tea Partiers but not the swing/disinterested voters. And the second group is one you have to have in order to win, even against the worst President since Carter.

    Kaisersoze (298188)

  168. Corporations don’t pay their fair share in taxes

    /Lefty who evaded their taxes

    DohBiden (d54602)

  169. Lets follow the instructions on the ‘Hitchkiker’s Guide to the Galaxy,”; don’t panic.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  170. _______________________________________________

    And the second group is one you have to have in order to win, even against the worst President since Carter.

    That’s why arguments along the line of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (ie, how conservative or squishy a Republican candidate is or isn’t) tend to wash over me. The situation is so pathetic and desperate right now in Obama’s Goddamn America, that a desire for political purity is sort of like going out and sniffing roses in the garden.

    Mark (411533)

  171. ______________________________________________

    they try to ban inhalers

    We really do live in an age of insanity.

    But if you — who at least judges the implications (and symbolism) of things like the end of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” differently than I do — perceive today’s reality as bad from your vantage point, imagine how insane things look from my angle.

    Lefty who evaded their taxes

    This is the epitome of that… Tax Analysts has recently acquired from the National Archives copies of the tax returns that [Franklin D.] Roosevelt filed between 1913 and 1937. And as a group, they reveal something striking: Roosevelt — a vicious and moralistic scourge of tax avoiders everywhere — had a penchant for minimizing his own taxes.

    During his first term in office, FDR repeatedly claimed that he was exempt from the high tax rates on personal income that Congress had enacted — and Roosevelt had approved — in the revenue acts of 1934 and 1935. (Labor Party Press): Under labor-backed president Franklin D. Roosevelt, taxes on the super-rich rose to 90 percent. No American, said Roosevelt, needed an income above $25,000 (about $250,000 a year in today’s money).

    Mark (411533)

  172. Sorry but it is over at Hot Air they want to ban inhalers to save the ozone.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  173. “But our accent is loathed by the coastal elites”

    Get outta here. I’m from California, I’m as elite as it gets, and I LOVE southern accents.

    I even say “y’all” myself from time to time.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  174. “Michael tubolard wants to boycott Georgia”

    Bad news.

    If the blimp boy ever stops eating, America’s farmers are doomed.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  175. Interesting post, but to me is seems to focus overly on trends, rather than a big reason why Perry is starting to have trouble: immigration.

    Perry was (past tense) my tentative pick for the nomination, but then he committed the unforced errors on immigration: speaking out against the fence without laying out what he’d do otherwise, being against e-verify. That “you don’t have a heart” line for the debate, when speaking about preferential tuition for illegal aliens (paid for by taxpayers). Not having immigration policy on his website (no wonder he wants to hide it).

    I didn’t know what his immigration policy was, but it’s not what I assumed. I also wonder if he’s competent: insulting the party base with that “you don’t have a heart” line is not a sane thing to do if you’re running for the Republican nomination.

    He needs to spell out what his policies really are. I certainly won’t vote for him unless he does (in the primaries or November) because if he’s an open-boarders type like McCain who tried to ram amnesty down our throats, to hell with him, and right now I’ve heard nothing to indicate otherwise. He needs to adress this issue.

    I held my nose and voted for McCain in 2008, but never again. So help me, if the GOP sees fit to nominate a third pro-illegal nominee in a row (Bush being the first, McCain the second)I’m staying home in November, and I sure as hell won’t donate any money this time. You can only tolerate betrayal so many times, after all.

    I don’t like Romney, but I’d vote for him if he’s the nominee based on what I know at the moment. That’s a lot more than I can say for Perry right now.

    I hope the other candidates pound the hell out of Perry on this issue. He needs to clarify his position, and fast. If he has an even marginally acceptable immigration policy, I could vote for him, but I’m not seeing any signs of it. All I’m seeing is an open borders type. I hope I’m wrong.

    And do we really want a nominee dimwitted/arrogant enough to insult a large portion of the party while running for the nomination? That kind of empty headed sanctimonious arrogance is what we get from Obama. If Perry’s the same (and apparently lacking in competence too), Obama looks good in one way only: he’d be gone in four years. Perry could stick around for 8. (and I utterly loathe Obama).

    Arizona CJ (f147c7)

  176. if Team R is the part of whining about illegal immigrants while the country is literally about to be disemboweled by a scimitar of debt and fail they’re not really fit to govern – and especially an unprincipled Obamacare-loving pansy like Miss Mittens Galore is not going to inspire me to give a damn

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  177. True, Pikachu, but he has to show that, and he just hasn’t been on his game lately, Mittens by contrast, has no interest in the match, he just wants the office,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  178. Miss Mittens Galore deserves the office cause of he’s got a golden ticket! He’s got a golden twinkle in his eye!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  179. Romney’s Big Tent: (or let the naysayers go suck eggs)

    Republicans, Conservatives, Christians, Independents, TEA Party Patriots, and honest Democrats can all put aside their differences and unite behind Romney to defeat Obama and his Socialist enablers in a paradigm shifting election of such staggeringly wide and deep proportions as to reduce previously held divergent positions to attendant issues.

    First we need to reject Obama, then we need to put the economy back on an even keel, then reduce the size and scope of government, eliminate the current tax code, secure our borders, fight terrorism, and outlaw public sector unions. Then there will be time enough to resurrect our differences.

    ropelight (eb06ea)

  180. sorry I mean *party* of whining

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  181. I’m not resigned to kicking the Tea Party in their little tea nads and voting for the leastest tea party candidate in the race

    another thing to consider which I do consider a lot is that Obama and his minions have brutally raped Texas even more viciously than they’ve raped the national economy the treasury and the health cares. I don’t trust Romney to right these wrongs.

    Romney’s #1 concern will be to win a second term. This is a man what has ceaselessly pined for the presidency for at least the past six years, doing nothing else productive besides. That’s deeply deeply weird and people what are prone to those sort of fixations usually play with themselves a lot.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  182. And most were specifically a little more open to Cain, who impressed them during the debate and had made a number of impromptu appearances around the hotels adjacent to the Orange County Convention Center.

    But even on Saturday, Perry might still have recovered some support with an inspiring speech before the voting. Instead, he headed off to Michigan, and it was Cain who delivered a barn-burner that brought at least seven standing ovations from the delegates. Wavering Perry delegates became Cain voters.

    Okay so Cain did a Ron Paul – worked the crowd for days morning noon and night.

    Perry didnt hold a breakfast, oh he paid for it but this meme he worked the crowd is just that, didnt happen.

    5 years of campaigning Mitt was 3rd?

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  183. Happy,

    Footage of Romney in the mid 90’s saying he isnt really a Republican during his debates with Ted are coming to a TV screen near you

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  184. 183, 184. All right, I’m open to the possibility these are alternate personalities of Sparty.

    gary gulrud (790d43)

  185. that strikes me as highly implausible Mr. gulrud

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  186. Breitbart to be indicted any moment now.

    JD (318f81)

  187. 140

    True, but it’s the law and Texas has to deal with the population we have. We want the best workers and educational opportunity is part of having the best workers.

    As I understand it, none of these people (illegal immigrants) can work legally in the United States. So this argument basically concedes that we are never going enforce our immigration laws. Which I am unwilling to do.

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  188. One of the best things about Perry is also the worst things for his campaign: Perry comes from a conservative background and state, and I believe he has basic conservative values. But it’s easier to be blind-sided by viewpoints that are foreign to your own beliefs and to stumble in responding to them, unless you’ve had to defend those beliefs in campaign situations.

    Perry hasn’t had to defend his beliefs in Texas the way he will have to on the national stage because most Texans share his basic beliefs. I think he will learn and do better, but we’ll see. I don’t know if he will become a better campaigner but I know he won’t give up.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  189. 189,

    I think there’s a difference between dealing with the population we have and embracing illegal immigration and amnesty, especially since states like Texas have no control over immigration decisions.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  190. That’s deeply deeply weird and people what are prone to those sort of fixations usually play with themselves a lot.

    hmmm… fixations like Sarah Palin and tasty, vegan pancakes?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  191. post #181… count me in, ropelight!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  192. you have clearly never had tasty thai vegan pancakes and Sarah Palin contrary to being a fixation she ain’t nothin but a thang

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  193. Donning my Garden-Party Skunk mantel, I would just say that reversing the leap into Socialistic-Authoritarianism that is President Millstone’s heartfelt program will be much easier at the ballot-box this coming year, than it will be if he is re-elected and the next plateau has to be ascended (see Frederick Douglass for his Three Box Theory of Freedom).
    You may feel uncomfortable holding that nose (again) when voting for the GOP nominee, but it will be nothing compared to the uncomfort level brought by chaos and revolution.

    Just Sayin’!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (109f56)

  194. 191

    I think there’s a difference between dealing with the population we have and embracing illegal immigration and amnesty, especially since states like Texas have no control over immigration decisions.

    Educating illegal immigrants certainly encourages an eventual amnesty so they can legally work. And states do have some influence on immigration policy as Arizona shows. Which state is sending a more welcoming message to illegals?

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  195. the one that’s creating all the jobs while the other states wallow in fail?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  196. I already addressed that. I don’t think in-state tuition rates offered to people who have lived in Texas for 3 years is a significant incentive. The incentives to come to America are jobs, opportxunities, freedom, and free K-12 education and emergency health care. Texas isn’t giving them free tuition, only in-state rates to people that actually live in-state.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  197. you have clearly never had tasty thai vegan pancakes

    nor do I have coarse hair growing on the palms of my hands.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  198. #196, if we accept the premise put out by Romney-Backmann-Santorum that in-state tuition draws more illegals, then how do you explain this:

    Four other states, Utah, New Mexico, Washington state and Oklahoma all have in-state tuition for the children of illegal immigrants. California and Arizona, do not.

    Not withstanding the Pew Hispanic Research Center says that most illegals, especially from Mexico, are young (under 35), male and unmarried, how do you explain that California, with no in-state tuition rules, ranks #1 with over 5 million illegals? How do you explain the illegal problem in Arizona, with no in-state tuition?

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  199. ________________________________________________

    insulting the party base with that “you don’t have a heart” line is not a sane thing to do

    That reminds me of the “compassionate conservative” phrase that George W Bush bandied about before the election in 2000. Or a sense that rightism needs a qualifier in order to be seen as proper, whole and appealing.

    I often post excerpts to this forum from surveys and studies that indicate liberals actually display behavior that is the antithesis of what they fancy themselves to be, or what they think their ideology instills in humans. That a larger percentage of those on the left, NOT on the right, are less generous when it comes to giving money, time and even blood to charity. Moreover, that folks of leftist tilt — or who are certainly registered Democrats — are more likely to believe that black people suffer from low aptitude and that segregating a community is acceptable.

    I bet a lot of people, from all backgrounds — including Rick Perry and George W Bush — are unaware of the actual quirks of human nature and ideology, and that even a variety of conservatives (in moments of shallow reflection behind closed doors) may buy into the stereotype that liberals are somehow more humane, giving, sophisticated and educated than the average person, or that liberal sentiments are more likely to instill such qualities in the populace.

    I know I was in the dark about the true nature of liberals and conservatives — and left-leaning versus right-leaning biases — until not too many years ago.

    Time to wake up.

    Mark (411533)

  200. Comment by DRJ — 9/25/2011 @ 9:16 am

    No!, for the true freebee, they come to CA, where the Leg and Gov have set aside funds for “grants” to cover the cost of tuition to the illegal immigrants that qualify for the “CA DREAM”.
    So, not only do they take a spot in the student body that could have been given to a citizen, they get a free-ride on top of it.

    Is it any wonder that CA is slowly turning into Greece (or Argentina, with a much-higher mix of minorities)?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (109f56)

  201. 198

    198.I already addressed that. I don’t think in-state tuition rates offered to people who have lived in Texas for 3 years is a significant incentive. The incentives to come to America are jobs, opportxunities, freedom, and free K-12 education and emergency health care. Texas isn’t giving them free tuition, only in-state rates to people that actually live in-state.

    It is not the particular benefit that is the incentive, it is the welcoming attitude that it conveys.

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  202. #140, the government claims that illegals cannot legally work here. So why do they issue ITINs that allow illegals (non-resident aliens) to file income tax returns?

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  203. Comment by retire05 — 9/25/2011 @ 9:24 am

    See my #202!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (109f56)

  204. 200

    Not withstanding the Pew Hispanic Research Center says that most illegals, especially from Mexico, are young (under 35), male and unmarried, how do you explain that California, with no in-state tuition rules, ranks #1 with over 5 million illegals? How do you explain the illegal problem in Arizona, with no in-state tuition?

    Obviously whether or not in state tuition rates are granted is not the only (or even the most important) factor determining rates of illegal immigration. Border states are going to have bigger problems and bigger states more absolute numbers of illegals.

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  205. 204

    204.#140, the government claims that illegals cannot legally work here. So why do they issue ITINs that allow illegals (non-resident aliens) to file income tax returns?

    The income tax laws apply to illegal income.

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  206. If you leftys want to complain about us invading bears territories and stealing their food go ahead but I don’t want to be a part of your idiocy.

    Romney is a flip-flopping Idiot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  207. #203, no, no, no. Bachmann, Santorum and Romney all said that in-state tuition was a draw for illegal immigrants.

    If that is the case, then Washington, Utah, New Mexico and Oklahoma should be their point of destination, not Arizona, California and yes, even Pennslyvania and Massachussets.

    I attended the 140’s reenactment of Gettysburg. A young man, a volunteer at the event, sat down beside me in the stands. We struck up a conversation and he asked where I was from. I told him “Texas.” He then started complaining about the number of illegals that were in Pennsylvania who came to work the farms and the orchards. He complained how the illegals came to work, but never left and were causing a strain on the state. My mouth dropped when he told me “I don’t know why you Texans can’t keep them down there where they belong.”

    Well, we have illegals. And the feds are not going to deport them unless they commit some other crime. We, in Texas, would rather have them complete their eduation (a deterrant to turning to crime), become citizens and productive tax payers. When the feds start deporting them, it will become a different story, until then……

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  208. I can’t remember a single question about climate change fraud from any of the debates it’s all about tardasil and how much we hate hate hate that mexicans come to our country uninvited

    well I could care less I don’t want to be in the tardasil/whine-about-mexicans party I want to be in the party what is alarmed about existential threats facing our fiscally lugubrious international laughingstock of a country

    illegal immigrants are so last decade wait til your little country meets its new friends hyperinflation and global irrelevance

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  209. Happyfete your an race-baiting POS.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  210. _______________________________________________

    So help me, if the GOP sees fit to nominate a third pro-illegal nominee in a row (Bush being the first, McCain the second)I’m staying home in November,

    I don’t think Romney is any less squishy about that issue, and there’s a very good possibility that Bachmann or Palin won’t approach the matter in a way all that different from DRJ (or, in turn, Perry). Or that Republicans like Cain and Pawlenty (and certainly Christie, and definitely Paul, and absolutely Huntman) won’t get pangs of touchy-feely apprehension and doubts about the dilemma behind closed doors.

    I was observing the various responses to the end of “don’t ask, don’t tell” in the other thread, and you’re just going to have to accept that decades of new-age liberalism have impacted a high percentage of EVERYONE. So if you’re going to be a single-issue voter when it comes to the problem of illegal immigration, be prepared to be disappointed.

    And if you sit out elections because of a “my way or the highway” approach to voting, be prepared for ending up in a truly (TRULY!) foolish, truly (TRULY!) leftwing society—see the text posted previously on the history of Argentina dating back 100 years.

    Mark (411533)

  211. It’s fun to be considered a squishy RINO for a change. I’m usually the heartless one around here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  212. #207, if the non-resident alien worker (an illegal) files a tax return using an ITIN, why doesn’t the feds then deport that person the first time they file since they know where they are?

    Accept it. The feds are not going to deport these kids. Not unless they commit a serious crime. You deal with what you have, not what you want it to be.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  213. _____________________________________________

    And the feds are not going to deport them unless they commit some other crime

    It’s odd how people (or societies) go through extremes. So we’ve gone from the era of Operation Wetback, when Dwight Eisenhower in the 1950s ordered Border Patrol agents, along with local law-enforcement agencies, to round up illegal aliens (which in some instances included even people who were here legally, if not outright citizens) and force them out of the country, to today’s environment—when the big controversy is whether illegals should get the in-state rate (or even flat-out subsidies) for college tuition.

    I want to take the dynamics of Operation Wetback, sprinkle in a bit of the absurd political correctness of the 21st century, and then split the difference.

    Mark (411533)

  214. 214

    Accept it. The feds are not going to deport these kids. Not unless they commit a serious crime. You deal with what you have, not what you want it to be.

    The feds under Obama (or Bush and probably Parry). I deal with things the way they are and work for things the way I want them to be.

    James B. Shearer (26df3c)

  215. any country what’s worth a sh*t has tons of illegal immigrants

    it’s a thing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  216. Any country what’s worth a sh*t says a big F*ck you to whitey.


    Btw the polar bear population is rising so a big screw you to the envirotards.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  217. #214, what did Reagan, Bush I, Clinton or Bush II do to deport illegals. Work place raids happened under Bush II. They have almost totally ended under Obama.

    You may work for things the way you want them, but the reality is that the federal government is NOT going to deport children who were brought here unwillingly, even when they reach the age of 18. You are one person, one vote.

    In 2009, Pew Hispanic Research reported that of the children that have illegal parents, 77% of them born to Mexican parents are U.S. born, 62% to other undocumented illegals.

    They also reported that the highest concentration of illegals are in the states of California, Nevada, Arizona and New Jersey. None of those states give in-state tuition. So the argument that in-state tuition is a draw seems to be a false meme, put out by Romney-Santorum-Bachmann.

    I want to ask you this: considering the makeup of the SCOTUS, with Sotomayer on the bench, and Kennedy a swing vote, what do you think the chances are that the court, if challenged, would extend the right to education to the Ivy Towers?

    And do you think this is a winning argument for any Republican who will watch Obama go into the barrios of every major city and repeat the lie that Republicans are anti-immigrant? Why was this issue a non-issue until Rick Perry threw his hat into the ring?

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  218. Todd Palin is not going to divorce his wife

    Sarah didn’t cheat on Todd with anyone.

    Romney is still a flip-flopping sham.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  219. You know that tiny speck of conscience that Maher, showed last week, he had to cut it out.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  220. Did you know Sarah Palin likes her men barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  221. Doh, or is that she “…likes her men barefoot in the kitchen and (geting her) pregnant.”?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (109f56)

  222. As I understand it, none of these people (illegal immigrants) can work legally in the United States. So this argument basically concedes that we are never going enforce our immigration laws. Which I am unwilling to do.

    Comment by James B. Shearer — 9/25/2011 @ 8:39 am

    Actually, I think you may have missed the little detail that Texas does not provide in state tuition to these folks unless they are trying to become citizens (which they can do lawfully, and I note they didn’t break our immigration laws… their parents did).

    I think it’s better for these people to be invested in being a law abiding professional that pays taxes instead of drawing welfare, etc.

    It is a shame that illegal immigration is prevalent, but that fact remains Perry has done a lot to curtail illegal immigration, while also not pretending he has solved the problem. Texas has a lot of illegal immigrant kids to educate. It’s hard to figure out the ideal solution. Denying them even a public school education, as one here suggested, isn’t going to make Texas a better place.

    Ideally, we ramp up border enforcement and get E-Verify to a point where it just plain works and all employers must use it. Also, we try to get Mexico on track to being a place folks don’t want to flee from.

    Which does bring me to consider Fast And Furious, which is likely to ruin our relations with Mexico and also made Mexico more hellish.

    Those saying they reject Perry for his stance on this issue I totally understand and respect, but those who wouldn’t vote for him in the general are fools.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  223. It looks like what we should have done to the likes of Chavez, to arm a paramilitary force or forces to destabilize the Gov.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  224. Looks like libs even know dreck when they see it:

    McGinniss’ tripe is bombing.

    224. “they are trying to become citizens”, i.e., pinkie swear–they must file an affidavit to the effect and there is no follow up.

    gary gulrud (790d43)

  225. 224. “they are trying to become citizens”, i.e., pinkie swear–they must file an affidavit to the effect and there is no follow up.

    Comment by gary gulrud — 9/25/2011 @ 5:53 pm

    Yeah. You got me there.

    As I said, if this is a bridge too far for someone to support Perry, I understand that. In the primary.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  226. Cain won the straw poll in Fla?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  227. Yep, he did,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  228. Cain’s strength in Florida surprises me. I have no idea what to make of it.

    Did any polls predict this outcome?

    Is this at all an indication of actual voter support in FL, or is it yet another attempt for an underdog to gain headlines?

    If someone like Cain can compete against Perry and Romney, the GOP is totally different than I thought it was. And I mean that in a good way.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  229. Perry didn’t bring his A game, Mitt was condescending as heck, Crist’s people were as deft as always, and Cain showed up,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  230. Mr. Cain would be a perfectly acceptable nominee I think plus the number 9 is one of my favorites

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  231. Perry is still looking in his attic for where he left his A game from 2009.

    Crist’s people are all that’s left to hire (which raises the question as to who another candidate would hire if they are to run).

    I suppose Palin could just hire Cain’s staff and take his endorsement.

    I dunno. If Cain really does have the best handle on Florida, this race is completely wide open. Except to Bachmann, thank God.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  232. Mr. Cain would be a perfectly acceptable nominee I think plus the number 9 is one of my favorites

    Comment by happyfeet — 9/26/2011 @ 6:57 am

    His name is Cain and he keeps saying 999. I can’t imagine what the religious kooks would make of the guy if he were president.

    You have to admit he’s made a few gaffes. Nothing truly sinister, but that religious test stuff, which I think he backed off from.

    Despite that, he’s better in my view than Santorum, Bachmann, Romney, Huntsman (D). I would prefer Newt, Perry, and dare I say Palin to Cain being the nominee.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  233. you dare much

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  234. I like that his 999 Plan can be re-stated as Plan 9 (x3), if you take my meaning.

    “Flying saucers over Washington DC?!?!”

    I like the guy, and I like the idea of a non-career politician in the White House, but given the cynical toxic reality of the landscape, I worry about a non-pro getting gobbled up for lunch on his first day by the pros.

    I could be wrong, though. Guy’s got a real man’s CV.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  235. You’re right, D in C. It’s not like Cain is just a nobody with no clue. He’s just not a pro politician.

    And I think those who don’t give Perry a pass for this, but do give Cain a pass for this, are being reasonable.

    A Baptist Minister who sold a lot of Pizza. Very American, and totally not DC.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  236. Herman Cain really meant to call his plan the 8675309 plan.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  237. Cain doesnt have a plan just a slogan, what cuts is he going to make?

    All straw polls are more of a publicity stunt, Cain worked the very very small crowd inside and out and was going to do well no matter what.

    Also the attendees, nyone going for 3 days to a conference are hyper issue political groupies, not at all representative of the avg voter.

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  238. any one going for 3 days…

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  239. Did you know Sarah Palin had a one night stand with George Lopez.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  240. DohBiden’s bizarre and irritating random-word comments are getting really tiresome, and making it both hard to read a thread and hard to maintain a serious-minded discussion.

    Lookit, I know my early George Carlin, and I dig a class clown as much as the next feller, but Know Yer Limits is a useful maxim.

    d. in c. (cae88c)

  241. Comment by Dustin — 9/26/2011 @ 7:05 am

    His name is Cain and he keeps saying 999

    Not 999, but 9-9-9. 9% income tax repalcing income tax and payroll tax, 9% corporate income tax, 9% sales tax. Gary Johnson was more of a 1-track mind. All he talks about is immediately balancing the budget by cuitting everything including defense spending. Gary Johnson, John Hunstman and Ron Paul seem to be isolationists.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  242. Comment by Dustin — 9/26/2011 @ 6:36 am

    Cain’s strength in Florida surprises me. I have no idea what to make of it.

    It’s a low-turnout caucus and the leading candidates didn’t compete.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  243. I wasn’t trying to dis Cain. I think his plan is great, btw.

    I like Cain, but occasionally he makes gaffes. I think that’s totally forgivable. He’s not a politician like Perry, so I just don’t expect the polish.

    Cain is sincere and he’s credible. I probably won’t vote for him, but he’s definitely high on my list.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  244. 9% federal sales tax? On top of state and local sales tax? Or does Cain plan on states giving us their one secure source of revenue in the hopes that when the feds collect that sales tax they will get at least a part of it back? How is making sales tax in some states as high as 8% going to make the economy any better? People will buy less.

    Sorry, don’t want to depend on D.C. any more than we do now. Matter of fact, we need to depend on them less.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  245. Sorry, that should have been “as high as 18%”

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  246. I’m parodying the Glenn Rice situation.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  247. ==I have no idea what to make of it. ==

    Maybe with the Cain vote it’s simply that Republican voters are saying to Dems, “We are not racists. We’d be happy to have a quality Black man in the White House. We just happen to despise the policies and attitude of your Black man who is currently living in the White House.”

    elissa (3a8545)

  248. With Cain in the white house Lech Walesa will be happy.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  249. How will the dhimmis who run the media react?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  250. People will buy less.

    Comment by retire05 — 9/26/2011 @ 2:01 pm

    Sure. Of course. When you tax something, you get less.

    Unfortunate for China.

    Taxation is never going to be perfect. Tax employment (income) and you get less of it.

    I don’t think this plan has much to do with the states depending on the federal government more. I’m not sure where that’s coming from.

    It’s a substantial increase in your sales tax. Most states and retailers are well equipped to handle this sales tax. There will be some evasion, but not like with income tax.

    Illegals, for example, will probably wind up paying their fair share. So will criminals.

    There are a lot of good reasons for this, and some against. I think the pros substantially outweigh the cons. Tax enforcement won’t go away entirely, but most of us won’t have to worry much about the IRS at all. I think it’s a lot more practical.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  251. Dustin and DRJ (and other Texans) did you see this gem from our campaigner and chief?

    At a fundraiser in San Jose, Calif., Obama said that some in the audience might be former Republicans “but are puzzled by what’s happening to that party,” and voters should back him if they believe in a “fact-based” America. “I mean has anybody been watching the debates lately?” Obama said. “You’ve got a governor whose state is on fire denying climate change.”

    And there’s more. So much more.

    elissa (3a8545)

  252. That is vile, Elissa. He is mocking a situation, scoring cheap political points, on the back of grateful one he has largely ignored. Not to mention that the existence of fire has not one damn thing to do with global warming.

    JD (318f81)

  253. Obama is a secret muslim what else did ya expect?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  254. Dustin and DRJ (and other Texans) did you see this gem from our campaigner and chief?

    Drove me nuts, Elissa.

    I was eating a hamburger with my wife and looked out the window and a tiny trickle of smoke turned into yet another fire.

    I don’t think it was a grassfire… just a house. But the entire restaurant went silent.

    Everybody knows someone who has been affected. Thousands of folks are homeless.

    And Obama’s making stupid smirky comments about global warming. Like Rick Perry personally should have known better.

    When it’s Obama’s administration that has totally screwed up how they deal with this issue.

    Why must everything be politicized? Bush didn’t smirk about how democrats blew it on 9/11. That’s almost how I am taking it that Obama would make that kind of comment.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  255. Dustin–surely representing all Texans from both political parties Gov. Perry will make some sort of public response to that hideous insult from Obama about the fires, will he not? I doubt the fires discriminated between Dem and Repub victims. And as JD points out the fires have NOTHING to do with “global warming”, anyway.

    elissa (3a8545)

  256. Elissa, I hope Perry does make some kind of official level response.

    The idea this is a global warming issue is ridiculous.

    I think Obama detects that Perry is under a lot of fire and not handling it super well, so he hopes to also attack Perry. I think Obama is quite scared of running against Perry, who is sufficiently conservative that most folks will vote for Perry instead of a fake-Tea candidate, which in my opinion is the only hope Obama has of being elected (via Romney, of course, not that Romney would want this to happen)

    My little house is on the edge of a large yellow (formerly green) prairie that stretches on as far as I can see. I do not believe in manmade global warming. From the sound of things, Obama thinks it would be kinda hilarious if my house burned down.

    Obama has no hope of winning Texas, so he doesn’t care if he treats Texas like dirt. That’s been clear for years, and I’ve heard from so many Texans ‘we just need to hold out until 2012′.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  257. Dustin – Perry could suggest that Obama instruct the EPA to issue rules limiting the amount of smoke emitted from naturally occurring fires and volcanoes given his knowledge of the subject.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  258. I don’t know where that random “grateful” came from in my prior comment. Suffice it to say, The One has largely ignored the tragedy in Texas, and brought it up to mock. So f@ck him. Perry should unload on hi snarky b@tch arse, and it will have an effect on how I view him as a candidate if he does not.

    JD (cae88c)

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