Patterico's Pontifications

3/25/2011

Bachmann For President?

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 4:57 am



[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

So news has been floating around that apparently Michele Bachmann is about to throw her hat into the ring for President.  And you know what?  I have already written the post on this topic months ago, over at Allergic to B.S. (language warning at the link), when they were talking about Scott Brown running for President.  Here’s what I said there:

But let me say right here, right now.  Don’t do it, Republicans. Scott Brown is an okay guy.  I cheered when he won the Senate race.  But here is the thing.  Do you remember the last time we picked a president whose résumé was summed up with a few years as a state senator, and part of a term as a U.S. Senator?  Do you know who the last President was who had so little experience?

Barrack Obama.  How is that working out for you, Republicans?

Hell, how is that working out for anyone?

The fact is résumés matter.  Let me tell you how I decide who to vote for, for president.  I start with their previous work experience.  I prefer someone to have some administrative experience.  In my mind, the best preparation to be the president is to be a governor first: it’s almost the same job, only on a smaller scale.  But I am willing to accept CEO of a corporation, a general in the army, or even mayor of a particularly large city. Then after I feel reasonably confident that the guy might know how to do the job, then I start looking into issues like ideology.

Oh and nothing matters more to me in ideology than terrorist-killing.

So like last time, you know who I wanted to be President? Giuliani.  Mind you, he is more liberal than I am, but he had more administrative experience than most of them, and I like his position on terrorist-killing.

Now I guess with his military background, Brown has Obama beat except…  well, then by 2012 Obama will have been president for four years.  I mean he has to have learned how to do something by then, right?  Right?

It might be tempting to think that by 2012 that Americans will be so sick of Obama that they will literally pick anyone else over him. But we shouldn’t give them a choice between Obama and “none of the above.”  We should give them a choice between Obama and someone who won’t need on-the-job training.

So let’s cut this out right now.

Seriously, what more is there to say, except that by that assessment Scott Brown would be more qualified to be President than Bachmann?  I like Bachmann, but I like her as a legislator, not as an administrator.  But look at her resume.  Here’s her official bio.  And here’ the wikipedia page, if that can be trusted.  I see nothing there that suggests she has enough executive experience to be President.

Now of course there is one good president you can point to that had about the same amount of executive experience, and that would be Lincoln.  But to be very blunt, we were not smart when we chose Lincoln to be President.  We were lucky. We picked a man with little (besides his evident intelligence) to suggest he was going to be the greatest president we ever had (in my opinion).  And yeah, I suppose there is the possibility of that kind of untapped potential in Bachmann, or Brown for that matter.  But how about instead, she goes and proves to me she knows how to run something, and then get back to me?

It might be the case that by next year Americans will be so sick of Obama that they will vote for almost anyone else.  I am just about there myself and have been there for well over a year.  But it is still important to offer a real alternative, not just someone who’s chief argument is that they couldn’t possibly be worse.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

191 Responses to “Bachmann For President?”

  1. So, the media do to Bachmann what they did to Palin. Only they do it in the primaries.
    She, like Palin, will be the arrow-collector, freeing up the rest of the field.

    Richard Aubrey (cafc94)

  2. richard

    excellent thought. people said that about o’donnell–that she drew so much fire and attention in the media, that it helped other republicans. i think james taranto made that argument.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  3. No, Brown’s recent votes on Fin Reg, New START, a whole host of other issues really disqualify him,
    The failure of the House, much less the Senate to do anything substantial on spending, or defund
    Obamacare’s implementing funds, really has been dissapointing. In contrast, someone I did have some
    strong reservations about, Governor Scott has come
    through, for the most part.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  4. I am salivating at the idea of Bachmann running. The woman is a walking disaster for the GOP. She gets her information from World News Daily, which is why you’ve been able to find her on Fox News complaining about Obama’s conspiracy to create a one-world currency, or force America’s youth into “FEMA camps”.

    She doesn’t stand a ghost’s chance of winning the nomination, but she’ll suck up a lot of attention from whoever becomes the real nominee.

    Kman (5576bf)

  5. Hmmm. Kman is salivating as he responds yet again to one of your posts obsessively.

    Oversharing, dude. Oversharing.

    Simon Jester (c7c587)

  6. narc

    well, if you go back to the post on Brown, it was written when he was newly elected.

    and yes, brown is alot more liberal than i think many people thought.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  7. Bachmann is the national version of Christine O’Donnell – she’ll get crushed in November if she’s nominated.

    I’m wondering if the GOP has learned from that experience.

    JEA (251640)

  8. I think the odds of Bachmann being president are astronomical, and her odds of being the GOP nominee only slightly better. Thus, the real question is whether she has an impact on the GOP primaries. I’ve seen some argue that her presence might nudge some candidates to the right, but I tend to doubt that, too. It’s more likely that she’ll have the effect of making the others seem more moderate to casual voters.

    It also seems more likely to me that any support she gets comes out of the pool of Palin voters, and maybe Huckabee voters or Gingrich voters (if any). In a crowded field, if Bachmann can draw a couple of percent away from any of these, it could affect the order of finish, and thus attitudes of the media and potential donors.

    Karl (45cc92)

  9. As with any incumbent running for re-election, the election will turn on whether voters feel good about the way things are going (and primarily economically). If so, re-election is a sure thing. If not, the challenger will win, unless the incumbent is able to portray the challenger as someone who would do an even worse job.

    And the best way to do this is to demonize and belittle the challenger, so that no voter in the their right mind could see the challenger as a viable alternative.

    With Bachman, it isn’t so much her lack of public office experience, it is, like with Palin, she is an easy target to ridicule and characterize as an extremist (note: I’m not saying I agree with the substance, just that she is an easy target).

    And while her lack of experience could and should hurt her in a normal race, it wouldn’t here. First, Obama was in a similar position, but more importantly, the way an incumbent stresses the issue is to talk about the successes he has had in office… and with Obama, what is it that he has done that will resonate positively with the mushy middle?

    steve (369bc6)

  10. Michelle Bachmann is the rep from the district just North of me. She is a lightning rod for the deranged left, who locally, hate her with the same level of passion given to Palin by the rest of the left.

    Her positions are generally something that I can agree with. But she comes off a bit schreechy, to my ear, when you listen to her. Certainly easy on the eyes though.

    Myself, I would like to see her get a bit more leadership within the House. I don’t see her as POTUS.

    Loren (998d8f)

  11. Mr Worthing quoted himself:

    Now I guess with his military background, Brown has Obama beat except… well, then by 2012 Obama will have been president for four years. I mean he has to have learned how to do something by then, right? Right?

    If the first 26 months are any indication, no, not right.

    The realistic Dana (3e4784)

  12. Seeing how there is all out attack on Kasich, Walker, Snyder, (who no one has ever even heard of before), it seems a little soon, but as with the examples I cited before, the left has no such reservations,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  13. She won’t get the nominee in 2012. I thought that Sarah Palin is going to run. Sarah is better than Michele.

    a conservative voter (8d321b)

  14. see this is what happens you elect one telegenic callow fluffernutter and then all the other telegenic callow fluffernutters get ideas

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  15. She hasn’t even run for office state-wide. I think her next step should be knocking off Franken or Koulba** (whatever her name is) for the MN senate seat, whichever of them is up in 2012.

    Right now it is questionable whether she could even win MN!

    SSG Fuzzy (12736d)

  16. feets!

    I did, in fact, laugh out loud… even if Bachmann’s background as a tax attorney seems more impressive than community organizer.

    Karl (45cc92)

  17. SSG Fuzzy? I thought only privates could be fuzzies, or maybe Second Lieutenants. :)

    The Army daddy Dana (3e4784)

  18. The last time a US Representative became president was Gerarld Ford. But he wasn’t elected to the office.

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  19. morning Mr. Karl!

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  20. I would suggest that a candidate that has little administrative experience, but talks about issues and has explicit plans has an edge (for me, at least) on a candidate that does the usual feel-good vagueness.

    I have to say that my 1012 hopes for the Republicans are not great. The GOP is in the middle of a prolonged faction fight, as we (I hope!) pry the RINOs out of leadership positions. We aren’t going to be done in 2012, so the best we’re likely to get is a compromise candidate who doesn’t totally please much of anybody. Fortunately, the way Obama is going we could win if we nominated a talking dog.

    My hopes lie in the Democrat party. not that I want them to win, mind! But the Democrats re-took Congress with a wave of populist or pseudo-populist candidates in 2006, and then dissed them badly when they got to Washington, putting all the power in the hands of old hard-core Liberals …. and the results are a mess for the Democrats. I’m hoping to see a Populist rebellion within the party. And not just because it would weaken the Democrats in 2012. If the populists seized control of the Democrats we would have BOTH parties moving away from the Liberal Intellectual Radical Progressive idiocy hat has poisoned the country for so long. And that would be a VERY good thing. Especially since it might give the ‘tea party’ people Democrats they could honestly vote for, which could only speed the Republican Party’s move towards real conservatism. No more “screw ’em, who else are ther going to vote for”.

    C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968)

  21. Kman no matter ow many times you try Michelle Bacmann just isn’t that into you she has standards.

    BTW you idiots think bush is so retarded but yet he committed 9/11 at the same time so don’t complain.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  22. “Michelle”

    Michele: “If I have to file papers and declare my candidacy to participate in the debates, I will.”

    Seriously, other than MD from Philly, I can’t imagine conversation at dinner with any herein.

    gary gulrud (790d43)

  23. “Seriously, other than MD from Philly, I can’t imagine conversation at dinner with any herein.”

    gary – How could I talk to you when you’re passed out in your mashed potatoes?

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  24. You will be glad to know, that your bestest friend, Mike Murphy, agrees with you, cupcake.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  25. how*

    DohBiden (984d23)

  26. Actually, that might be the best time for a conversation.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  27. BTW what’s wrong with a bachmann presidency?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  28. Ann Coulter is clearly more qualified.

    Kevin M (298030)

  29. Yeah and ya know who’s more qualified than Ann Coulter?

    The wicked witch of the east.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  30. I like Fred and then he dropped out of the race and endorsed Meghan’s daddy and to myself I thought Fred you are a big stupid momo I regret having supported you now get your quitty quitty Meghan’s daddy-endorsing ass out of my inbox tyvm

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  31. Aaron,

    Nixon, arguably one of the best, had about as much epereince just 2 or 3 more years before being VP

    Also has a successful company, and a technical attorney in Finance and Taxes

    What experience does Romney have other than getting born into fabulous wealth and given a career by his parents and church?

    Gingrich is a contender, the most experienced, totally unelectable

    I think under a President Bachmann, you wont see spending dollar for dollar increasing

    Palin isnt running, and it looks like the conservatives in Alaska are undoing her initiatives – which precludes her from running (hey google it – not my doing)

    Perry is also considering a run, he might just be the one, Perry Bachmann ticket would work well or a Bachmann Perry

    But JFK, Carter, Nixon, Bush II, Obama, none had any executive experience (except Carter) and it seems that personality seemed to be the modulating trend this last 50 years

    EricPWJohnson (5c8233)

  32. I meant Bachmann in the second sentence

    EricPWJohnson (5c8233)

  33. Bush II most certainly had executive experience, Eric.

    And Nixon was one of the worst presidents the USA has ever had.

    I think it is absolutely critical that our nominee be a reelected Governor with a record of real reform. I don’t think Perry fits that bill perfectly but I can take his record as a substitute for reform, since Texas is relatively very well run.

    I can get over my visceral dislike of Perry because I’ve seen just how difficult it is for someone to learn leadership skills in the oval office. They wind up making tough calls by breaking their principles instead of taking the heat for their principles over the years (the way W did!).

    Romney lacks the necessary experience to be President, not to mention the lack of principles. Palin and Christie are far short on experience too, though both have principles and both have many successes.

    Bachmann is hopefully running for VP.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  34. Actually, if it were Palin vs Perry, I’d pick Palin just because she’s so ethical.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  35. When outspoken conservatives seem so easy to ridicule, it should come as no surprise that the GOP nominees always look like RINOs.

    I know know what to do about that, either.

    carol (5a5d33)

  36. “Palin isnt running, and it looks like the conservatives in Alaska are undoing her initiatives”

    EricPW – Are those conservative or Murkowski acolytes? Let me know please. You seem to have major identification issues with Alaska politics.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  37. It’s true that Palin fought hard against Murkowski style oil corruption. And it’s hard to know what EPWJ was referring to but I hope it’s not the case that the corrupt in my own party are undoing Alaska’s progress.

    That state is quite screwed up politically. The GOP should be in favor of more energy exploration and infrastructure, but I don’t think the GOP should be a puppet for oil companies to make profits with special deals.

    A lot of EPWJ’s complaint about Palin has to do with the fact Palin could get more money for the property of Alaska’s citizens than Mr Murkowski was even willing to get. He forgot who he was working for.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  38. “What experience does Romney have other than getting born into fabulous wealth and given a career by his parents and church?”

    Try reading his bio you bigoted putz.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  39. Actually, I’m curious too about why people say Romney’s experience is amazing.

    I realize he led a company, was an unsuccessful governor, and worked with the Olympics. That is impressive to a point, but I don’t think it is competitive for President.

    So I’m going to sum up his education. Undergrad at Brigham Young, Harvard MBA and JD (impressive). He was a top level executive at Bain, an investment company. He steered the financially successful Salt Lake games.

    In two of cases, there is the vague effort to give Romney credit for saving an organization from failure (Bain and the Olympics), but I don’t see the evidence. With Fiorina, I can name specific things she did to make HP financially viable.

    It so happens that Romney cofounded Bain Capital. In other words, Romney is great at getting people to open their checkbooks because he is both well connected to successful people and from a successful family. I certainly don’t hold that against him, and I guess this is a bit more helpful experience than community organizing, but from reading his bio I conclude Romney is drastically underqualified for the office of Governor (explaining his failure as a governor) let alone a Presidency.

    Personally, I see his religion as a plus. Mormons are really good people in my experience.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  40. Dustin

    Just one term as Gov for Bush and some change, but your dislike of Perry is somewhat common in Texas – the guys gotten horrible press, totally fabricated stories for over a decade, but somehow people in Texas don’t want to think about anyone else

    EricPWJohnson (5c8233)

  41. Does that mean if Obama had more executive experience beforehand that he’d be more adept at destroying America?

    j curtis (e41227)

  42. As regards Palin, I have gotten to the point where, should she be nominated, I would vote for her simply for the entertainment value in watching the Liberal Left media lose their collective mind for the next four years. They have told so many lies about Palin, and told them so badly, that my automatic assumption is that anything bad reported about her is untrue. Which is a hell of a way to assess a candidate, but what can I do? I have a life (bordering on a soap opera) and can only devote limited time to researching politics. By this time the Leftwing Media has spouted so much drivel about her that I can’t look into all of it, I have to take what I have looked into and generalize. And that leads to the assumption that nothing bad about her is true until I actually see her convicted of it in court, and even then I’d have doubts.

    See where all your smears got you, Leftwing Twit Media?

    A man (or woman) can be judged by the quality of his (her) enemies. It may not be the BEST way to judge them, but an argument can be made for it. And Palin has all the right enemies.

    C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968)

  43. Bush 43 was a reelected Governor who did an AMAZING job working with Texas democrats. He materially improved the political situation in Austin. He had exactly the kind of experience a person needs to learn how to handle coalition directing, negotiations that are riddled with problems, and the complex nature of a huge government operation. Even then I’m sure he had to learn a lot when he got to the Oval Office, but I think Bush was as well prepared as anyone can be.

    Yes, you’re right that Perry gets so much flack in Texas, and I even concede the some of it is unfair. Like I said, I’m willing to swallow my visceral dislike for Perry (and I’m not digging into the scandals associated with him) because I do think he has the experience needed. I also think in many cases he has been effective at criticizing Obama. I need to hear more about his plans for entitlement reform… and that goes for every candidate.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  44. Does that mean if Obama had more executive experience beforehand that he’d be more adept at destroying America?

    Comment by j curtis — 3/25/2011 @ 9:41 am

    Is Obama trying to destroy America? Sometimes I am absolutely sure he is.

    Sometimes, it looks like he’s painted himself into a corner, or waffled too long because he is not capable of leading.

    So I have two points: one, if Obama had successfully governed a state he would be more effective at administrating. Some aspects of his job shouldn’t be politically controversial. You just need a real leader to handle it. Obama makes even the silliest crap political, so you are inclined to dismiss this point and I’m not going to tell you that’s wrong. Two, Obama CAN’T get the experience I’m mentioning. It’s a threshold test in addition to an educational experience. Romney can’t become a reelected governor because he innately sucked at that job. Obama would have also ran his state into the ground.

    When I say I want our nominee to be a reelected governor, I am trying to weed out politicians who have hidden their leadership problem. A lot of these guys make great Senators because that’s a totally different skill-set.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  45. , I would vote for her simply for the entertainment value in watching the Liberal Left media lose their collective mind for the next four years

    Yes, that would be sweet. Palin represents the culture war, and it seems important to me that our side wins somehow. On the other hand, looking at Angle and Miller and a few other of her candidates (most of whom where great, IMO, some of whom were not) I think it’s clear she has a lot of weakness in swing states.

    Winning the election is more important than vindicating Palin, even though I do really want her vindicated politically. Obama is going to give our nuclear shield technology to Russia (and therefore Iran). He’s nominating some horrible judges. I think Palin would be a great president, but I do not think she can win the general election. I also think she lacks the experience to be a serious candidate, much as I think Romney lacks it.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  46. in my opinion, J. Curtis wins the thread. to the extent that my declaration means anything.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  47. I would favor Ron Paul but he is already old.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  48. Romney/Bachmann in 2012. Think about it.

    ropelight (5f1d7e)

  49. It’s all about the Donald.

    Leviticus (35fbde)

  50. Trump/Palin in 2012. Don’t think about it. I didn’t.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  51. Tough balancing act – too conservative a candidate loses the middle, too RINO a candidate loses the base.

    Considering how hard the Tea Party people are willing to work, and their donations, I hope the GOP doesn’t spit on them again.

    jodetoad (7720fb)

  52. So can anyone tell me why bachmann doesn’t deserve the presidency?

    Is it because we’ll all be sucked into a blackhole of nothingness?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  53. So can anyone tell me why bachmann doesn’t deserve the presidency?

    Yeah, because she didn’t win an election.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  54. Dustin ?

    you mean for president?

    EricPWJohnson (5c8233)

  55. “In two of cases, there is the vague effort to give Romney credit for saving an organization from failure (Bain and the Olympics), but I don’t see the evidence.”

    “Romney is great at getting people to open their checkbooks because he is both well connected to successful people and from a successful family.”

    Dustin – A couple of point. Apparently he was a respected enough consultant at Bain that they asked him to start that new group, Bain Capital, where they could put the money of presumably their employees and outside investors to work running companies according to the theories used in their management consulting business. Bain Capital was involved in both venture investments and leveraged buyouts. I read somewhere that the average annual return over Mitt’s reign was 113%. Getting people to part with money is only one part of the job. Selecting portfolio investments and managing them is much more important. Did his family do that for him?

    On the Salt Lake City Olympics just one question, how many such games have been profitable in recent memory?

    If anybody has evidence that his family or church ensured his success at Bain as EricPW implied, I would like to see it.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  56. Daley

    Romneycare, lost to Huckabee, spent 9 figures of his own money, lost to Huckabee

    Rich kid, fantastically wealthy parents, didnt turn around anything, left Bain and Bain Cap in a mess

    Lost to a smarmy preacher

    EricPWJohnson (5c8233)

  57. I read somewhere that the average annual return over Mitt’s reign was 113%. Getting people to part with money is only one part of the job. Selecting portfolio investments and managing them is much more important. Did his family do that for him?

    Yes, this is impressive.

    On the Salt Lake City Olympics just one question, how many such games have been profitable in recent memory?

    I had the same thought. That’s impressive.

    But it’s still a bit vague to me. I am sure that something Romney did contributed to those successes, but I don’t know that this is causation or correlation with someone else’s contributions.

    I also think even if Romney did invest money very smartly, that doesn’t mean he would be a good governor or president, and in fact, I don’t think he was a good governor.

    It means he probably has more business sense than Mccain, Huckabee, or Obama, but I am not even willing to go that far. He’s extremely well connected, and sometimes that means he has an inside scoop on good investments or good managers.

    Fiorina can site specific hard choices she made to get HP on its feet. These choices are even a liability for her with many people. That’s the kind of thing I need to hear about Romney because, at the end of the day, the leadership he would need to employ with America is to make hard choices to cut entitlements, against tremendous pressure. Even if I try hard to be fair to Romney, his record suggests he cannot resist tremendous political pressure.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  58. If anybody has evidence that his family or church ensured his success at Bain as EricPW implied, I would like to see it.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    I have no problem believing that people trusted a fellow Mormon with their money. I have no idea if that happened, but it makes sense to me. Also, successful families often rely on their trust of one another with larger deals.

    I’m not mormon, but they are good people who won’t steal from me, in my experience. If that’s the kind of thing that helped Romney bring in the funds he needed at Bain, that’s no scandal.

    I know a lot of people actually respond to the dark anti-mormon crap, but I can’t understand that.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  59. you mean for president?

    Comment by EricPWJohnson

    I mean that no one ‘deserves’ to be the president just because they are somehow awesome.

    Bachmann has not been a successful or reelected Governor, so I hope she’s running for VP or running to inject her ideas into the debates, shaping our nomination to include entitlement reform.

    I will be shocked if the GOP, after watching Obama’s horrible lack of leadership skill, nominates someone who doesn’t have serious executive experience. That’s no slight on Bachmann that she’s not that person.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  60. btw, Daley, I’d also like to hear EPWJ answer your challenge.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  61. As regards Palin, I have gotten to the point where, should she be nominated, I would vote for her simply for the entertainment value in watching the Liberal Left media lose their collective mind for the next four years.

    Exactly. Palin is in many respects (though not in all) the USA’s version of Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen. Joh drove the left and the MSM crazy, especially by the way he kept getting elected despite their best efforts. How could the voters be so stupid, the MSM would all cry. Surely last election must have been a fluke; surely he’ll lose badly this time. And he’d smile and win again. The USA MSM may figure this out round about Palin’s eighth year in the Oval Office. Or not.

    Then again, Palin’s a “maverick” and also a “quitter”, so I can easily see her resigning the presidency some time in the middle of her 7th year, perhaps 4-Jul-2019, so as to let Vice President Jindal enter the 2020 primaries as an incumbent.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  62. “But it’s still a bit vague to me.”

    Dustin – If it’s vague to you, do some more research. Most serious people would agree that to conclude all his success is due to his family and church connections is specious without any real knowledge of the actual facts. You are usually better than this. EricPW is not.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  63. “I’d also like to hear EPWJ answer your challenge.”

    Dustin – So would I, but he’s usually too cowardly. He still has not apologized for calling Palin a racist.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  64. Most serious people would agree that to conclude all his success is due to his family and church connections is specious

    I agree. There’s no evidence of this. What I’m saying is that even if Romney’s success is because people trusted their family ties or religious ties to him, I don’t see that as a problem.

    Like I said above, I’m sure something Romney did contributed to Bain’s success and Salt Lake Games’s impressive profitability. And when I try to do the research, I don’t get much that helps me understand that.

    Romney has had an awful lot of chances to make his case to me. Hell, as I’m in Texas, he was my guy when it came down to Romney v Mccain v Huckabee. I really can’t accept ‘the reason is out there, do more research’. Romney needs to explain how his choices with Bain or Salt Lake relate specifically to leading the USA out of debt.

    I think he’s vague about this because he is not going to gut entitlements.

    Anyway, please don’t interpret my comments as backing EPWJ’s claims up. They are instead trying to say “so what?” to them.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  65. And full disclosure, I do find it difficult to give a certain breed of politician a fair shake. John Edwards, Rick Perry, and Mitt Romney all seem similar in a fundamental, apolitical way. This may seem really odd to some people, but I bet a few of you get what I mean.

    I just don’t like ’em. I’m willing to get over it, but I’m harder on Romney because I think he’s ‘fake.’

    Dustin (c16eca)

  66. “Anyway, please don’t interpret my comments as backing EPWJ’s claims up. They are instead trying to say “so what?” to them.”

    Dustin – Sorry. To me it sounded like you were backing them up, plus the admission you did not know much about made the comments sound especially poor to me. Classic EPWJ.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  67. Yeah, I understand. That’s why I left the additional comment that I think EPWJ ought to back up what he said.

    I just don’t think this conspiracy where people trusted Romney in business for those reasons would be so bad.

    Also, I don’t think Romney is a horrible person. I have no trouble buying that he’s very smart, cares about this country, and had some kind of ability to keep a company in the black. But the presidency requires many rare bullets on the resume. One is solid political executive experience and another is a hard, credible promise to reform entitlement spending, even against political pressure.

    A lot of people have one or the other. I don’t think Romney has either. I know the guy has been demonized unfairly and I probably should be less civil when his mormonism is brought up at all.

    I don’t want to have to discuss whether or not I’m willing to support some extremely weak GOP candidate in 2012 like I did in 2008.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  68. Aaron is exactly right about executive experience. In 2008 this was one of my two reservations about Fred Thompson; I ended up supporting him anyway because there was nobody else in the field I could support, but it was a serious problem. (The other one was his co-sponsorship of McCain-Feingold, and the inadequacy of his backdown from that position.)

    In Palin’s case, four years as governor would have been better than the two-and-a-half she had, but 2.5 years is still enough of an apprenticeship, especially combined with the executive experience she has as a mayor and as a small business owner. That’s a diversity of executive experience, so she has a sense of what scales and what doesn’t, which is arguably better than four years as governor and nothing else.

    Being governor of a huge state like Alaska is also better experience than being governor of a compact state that leads you to think in terms of centralisation. And being governor of a border state gives a lot of practical experience in the boring details of foreign affairs, as she famously tried to explain to Katy Couric.

    On top of all that, her decision to quit the governorship is actually a recommendation: it shows that she’s able to put the good of the state above her own good. She must have known at the time that quitting would harm her presidential chances, and a lesser person would have said “screw the state, I’m after bigger game”. But she didn’t do that. She saw that the state was being harmed by her continuing in office, so she did the right thing for it and resigned. That she also thereby set up her chosen successor, Sean Parnell, to enter the 2010 election season as an incumbent, is further testament to her willingness to put the cause ahead of her personal ambition.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  69. On top of all that, her decision to quit the governorship is actually a recommendation: it shows that she’s able to put the good of the state above her own good.

    Don’t think that the fact this happens to be the truth changes the fact that this is a huge political liability for Palin.

    With low info voters, some of whom wouldn’t even think about their vote until very close to election day, an easy to communicate narrative is very persuasive. ‘Quitter’ comments will absolutely saturate every level of popular culture, and a lot of swing voters will not listen to your accurate explanation.

    I have to say, I do think Palin has executive experience, but she doesn’t have enough for me. Neither does Christie or West. But like all things, I am going to be forced to compromise. If Palin is the closest I can get to an electable experienced executive with an intent to reform our entitlements, I will find that unfortunate, but fine.

    That’s the same reason I was a Romney supporter when it came down to he vs Huck and McCain.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  70. The wicked witch of the east.

    Actually, Pelosi is from San Francisco.

    Kevin M (73dcc9)

  71. Oh sorry the wicked witch of San Fransisco.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  72. How about the Wicked Witch of Westchester (formerly known as Lady Macbeth)?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  73. Um who?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  74. She’s not a witch. She’s not anything you’ve heard. She’s you.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  75. Unless the GOP loses its collective mind, the nominee will be a governor. The next year will be a showcase of governors as they deal with the corrupt public employee union system. Christie has a head start but says he doesn’t want the job. Kasich has Washington experience and a good history on the deficit. Daniels has been there longer if he can break through and get his message across. Walker has been taking the arrows but could end up a VP nominee if he gets some support in Wisconsin, especially in the supreme court election on April 5.

    Bachmann will appeal to the same group that Huckabee does, the social conservatives. Santorum is also trying to appeal to that group but I don’t think this will be the year that voters are going to vote on abortion or prayer in school.

    Palin has a broader appeal and could be the nominee if one of the governors who is leading stumbles. She has been subjected to the slings and arrows for longer.

    The Legacy Media will be desperate to prove they are relevant and so will try to swing the election to Obama. He is making it harder for them every week. I don’t see a Reagan on the horizon but Obama is worse than Carter as a president. Who would have thought that possible ?

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  76. “I also think even if Romney did invest money very smartly, that doesn’t mean he would be a good governor or president, and in fact, I don’t think he was a good governor.

    It means he probably has more business sense than Mccain, Huckabee, or Obama, but I am not even willing to go that far. He’s extremely well connected, and sometimes that means he has an inside scoop on good investments or good managers.”

    Dustin – I have a problem with statements like the above based on no knowledge. McCain and Obama have no business experience. I don’t know about Huckabee. Romney has demonstrably excellent business experience yet you throw cold water on it based on what? The inability to compare it to the lack of experience of the others? Get serious. You can’t compare something to nothing so don’t try, it makes you look silly, like you are deliberately trying to attack Romney.

    At least attack his record as a governor where there is a framework for comparison, rather than nonsensical BS like the above.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  77. McCain and Obama have no business experience. I don’t know about Huckabee. Romney has demonstrably excellent business experience yet you throw cold water on it based on what?

    I said he probably has more business acumen, but I’m not willing to go as far as to say I know it. Romney has had a lot of chances to explain how he personally made specific decisions that were difficult and yet successful. He has failed to do so. Did he make money because of great leadership? If so, those decisions occurred.

    You can’t compare something to nothing so don’t try, it makes you look silly, like you are deliberately trying to attack Romney.

    I freely admit I have a hard time being fair to this guy. I’m not trying to attack him, but I am very skeptical that the often repeated claim he is a brilliant leader is the truth, rather than a vague correlation with positive results.

    My throwing cold water on Romney being a better businessman than Huck or Obama was a cheap shot and meant to be taken as flip. Then again, Mccain made some cunning deals with savings and loans (I’m joking again)!

    I’m not going to attack Romney’s record. It hasn’t been established that he’s made a single hard decision, under pressure, that time proved wise. He has to compete against people who have stood up to pressure like Walker and Daniels and Palin, and I think his flip flops on principle issues place a very heavy burden on him to give me a reason to believe he’s a leader at all.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  78. Daley,

    Not implied, his father was one of the most important businessmen, politicians and religous leaders in America

    Romneys firm leveraged buyout wrecked companies, and we see the results,

    Romney was defeated by an poorly educated populist who was outspent by romney by a breathtaking amount

    and the polls always had Mitt leading but always coming in 3rd, then 4th

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  79. Daley,

    Not implied, his father was one of the most important businessmen, politicians and religous leaders in America

    Romneys firm leveraged buyout wrecked companies, and we see the results,

    Romney was defeated by an poorly educated populist who was outspent by romney by a breathtaking amount

    and the polls always had Mitt leading but always coming in 3rd, then 4th

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  80. I can see myself supporting Daniels, Barbour, or Pawlenty rather than Palin, if they make a good enough case. Daniels would have to come out with a strong zionist statement, on the level of Alan West’s, in order to convince me not to worry about the fact that he’s an Arab. Past that he’d have to stake out a position on foreign policy, because right now I have no idea what he thinks about it.

    Barbour and Pawlenty would have to pin down their positions on lots of things that Palin’s already done; but both impress me with their performance in office. Barbour handled Katrina so well that I’d like to think he’s the person to trust in case of a national disaster. I just don’t know enough about his policies to decide whether to support him. He’s also “old guard” and I’d want to know about his relations with the TEA party movement in his state.

    But for now I’m still supporting the same combo I have been since December 2008: Palin/Jindal.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  81. Repeating on sense does not make is anything but nonsense.

    JD (318f81)

  82. Repeating nonsense does not make it anything but nonsense.

    JD (318f81)

  83. “Not implied, his father was one of the most important businessmen, politicians and religous leaders in America”

    EricPW – Give me concrete examples where he was “given a career by his parents and church” as you specifically alleged above.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  84. Not implied, his father was one of the most important businessmen, politicians and religous leaders in America

    Isn’t that a good thing? Don’t you want a father to be successful and respected? I don’t see why this undermines Mitt’s success. Yes, he was rich enough to cofound an investment firm, but Daley is right that it more than doubled its investment money.

    I just look at his record on entitlements, and wonder if there’s any specific example where he showed the specific kind of leadership I’m shopping for. I’m talking about making people unhappy in the short term, and standing up to that pressure to avert the long term disaster.

    So he was on the steering committee for an Olympics that made money. That kinds of argument doesn’t persuade me. Without specifics, it merely shows Romney is not incompatible with making money.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  85. Dustin – it seems pretty clear that practically nothing would persuade you, since the actual record is insignificant. Maybe he just got lucky, repeatedly?

    JD (318f81)

  86. I don’t like him, but to question his acumen as being probably mor than the others, but unwilling to state for a fact is, frankly, astonishing.

    JD (318f81)

  87. Daniels would have to come out with a strong zionist statement, on the level of Alan West’s, in order to convince me not to worry about the fact that he’s an Arab.

    He’s of middle eastern descent, but this seems as legitimate an issue as Romney being mormon (not at all). He’s an American.

    Regardless, I tried to find comments from Daniels on this topic and have to concede that Milhouse has a point. Mitch has to convince me that he’s on the same page as I am on foreign policy. I hope Bolton runs, if only to make sure this comes up at the debates.

    All we can do is wait for the debates and hope someone steps forward with all the ingredients we’re looking for. Basically what Milhouse already said.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  88. He’s a syrian christian so odds are he is for israel.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  89. Dustin – it seems pretty clear that practically nothing would persuade you, since the actual record is insignificant. Maybe he just got lucky, repeatedly?

    Comment by JD

    This is unfair, JD. I have conceded that it is impressive that he made money, while finding that not to be good enough to show he’s going to reform our entitlements, since his record on entitlements is poor, IMO.

    How did Mitt Romney make money at the Salt Lake city olympics? As best as I can tell, the reason those Olympics made money were geographic, and Mitt was on the steering committee. You’re insinuating that Romney’s leadership was the reason.

    I’m not being unfair to ask exactly what decisions he made, against the grain, that did this.

    How did he make money at Bain? I think he probably had a good eye and was able to listen to good advice about which investments to make. That’s great. I’d like some specifics that relate to the leadership I’m asking about.

    to question his acumen as being probably mor than the others, but unwilling to state for a fact is, frankly, astonishing.

    Why? When I said Romney merely probably has more business sense than Huckabee or Obama, that isn’t like saying I think the evidence for all three is similar. I’m saying it’s too vague.

    People keep telling me to read his bio. I did, and proved it is extremely vague, and the best response I get is to repeatedly say he was present when money was made.

    Yes, JD, maybe he got lucky or is taking credit for someone else’s work. Why is it that this guy who poured so much money into marketing the notion he has an amazing business record unable to show me a difficult decision that places him a cut above the rest?

    So all I can say is that there is vague evidence that he’s probably good at investments. JD’s claim that nothing will convince me otherwise is not accurate.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  90. Mitch being born to parents whose parents were of Arab Christian ancestry is a problem?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    JD (318f81)

  91. This world is f@cking surreal sometime. I want Rmney to be President about as much as I want a root canal, but the idea that his record is vague, or has not been fleshed out, is laughable.

    JD (318f81)

  92. “Yes, he was rich enough to cofound an investment firm, but Daley is right that it more than doubled its investment money.”

    Dustin – The figure I cited was an annual number – money doubled each and every year on average. Wake up. Bain Capital was a spinoff of his employer, the consulting firm Bain. He did not need his own money to do that. The CEO of Bain selected him to run it. You clearly have not followed his bio and do not understand how private equity firms work.

    Romney was brought in as President and CEO of the Salt Lake City Olympics Steering Committee, not just a committee member, after allegations of bribery and mismanagement led to the resignations of prior members. Fund raising was way behind target when he was brought on board with those scandals. Add in the post 9/11 security precautions, running the games at a $100 million profit was a huge accomplishment. Hey, but Romney probably just attended a few meetings.

    Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

    EricPW – How wealthy was the Romney family exactly? Do you have figures?

    Was Bain Capital controlled by Mormons?

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  93. Mitch is very America you can tell cause of number one his name is Mitch and number two he lives in Indiana

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  94. Romney’s flip flopping is more of a problem than his mormonism.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  95. “Why is it that this guy who poured so much money into marketing the notion he has an amazing business record unable to show me a difficult decision that places him a cut above the rest?”

    Dustin – Maybe it because you have demonstrated that your eyes are firmly shut.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  96. 22.“Michelle” “If I have to file papers and declare my candidacy to participate in the debates, I will.”
    Seriously, other than MD from Philly, I can’t imagine conversation at dinner with any herein.
    Comment by gary gulrud — 3/25/2011 @ 7:08 am
    23.“Seriously, other than MD from Philly, I can’t imagine conversation at dinner with any herein.”
    gary – How could I talk to you when you’re passed out in your mashed potatoes?
    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/25/2011 @ 7:11

    I ignore you folk for a few days and I see I’m in the middle of something I have no idea what of. Who am I going to dinner with, where, why, and who’s paying?

    I say we let Obama win 2012, then recall him in 2014 with some combo or Rubio, West, Walker. I have no idea who may be hitting stride in 2012, but lots of folk look like they could in 2014.

    If many repubs run, including Bachman, it would be good if they all focused on areas of Obama’s record. bachman knows taxes and stuff.

    Besides, she’s raised how many foster kids? That’s executive decision making. If you show up and say “Present” to a house full of kids, do you know how long that will work out???

    MD in Philly (f0e1bd)

  97. American or not, it’s natural for an Arab to identify with his fellow Arabs and when all else seems equal take their side against the Jews. As an American he may recognise that Israel is a valuable ally, but that doesn’t mean his sympathy will be with it, the way that those of zionists like Palin and West are. Nor is his Christian rather than Moslem background an indication of support for Israel; Christian Arabs, especially those who left before 1948, are just as likely as Moslem ones to have their natural sympathy and identification be with their fellow Arabs. Cf Helen Thomas, James Zogby, James Aboureszk, John Sununu, George Mitchell. Maronites in Lebanon didn’t become pro-Israel until the 1980s.

    As for John Bolton, if he’s not seriously running for president I’m not sure it’s a good idea to put on a dummy run just to get in the debates; I’d rather he hook up with a serious candidate and have the candidate promise that if he wins Bolton will be Secretary of State. That would reassure me about Daniels, for instance.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  98. MD in Philly, there is no recalling a president!

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  99. Or maybe because Romney is a flip flopping dousche.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  100. American or not, it’s natural for an Arab to identify with his fellow Arabs and when all else seems equal take their side against the Jews.

    I disagree.

    And supporting Israel can be just for the purposes of supporting a western democracy in a sea of dictatorships and extremism, rather than violating one’s racial loyalty to fellow Arabs for Jews.

    I agree Daniels and the rest need to convey a foreign policy argument.

    Dustin – The figure I cited was an annual number – money doubled each and every year on average.

    And I repeated that figure in Mitt’s defense, remember? It was in this thread.

    How am I embarrassing myself? If Mitt wants to be President of the United States, he needs to make a good argument. Often that argument is that he’s a business genius, and when I ask for specifics, I get told to do the research myself. What the hell kind of candidate can’t just make it clear in his bio? But OK… I read his bio and remarked on what I found impressive while asking for specifics about the only two business successes in his long career. I even make clear exactly what I’m looking for, and how specifically I relate that to a particular decision pattern my ideal candidate can make.

    For this, I’m called unconvincable?

    Sorry, but I’m been more than fair to Romney in this thread. I could be relating all the many arguments we’ve heard about his principles, but instead I’m doing research and asking fair questions about it. I do not trust Romney, and I even admit that I come at this with a bias. You won’t get a more fair analysis from a skeptic than I’m giving.

    As impressive as those financial results at Bain are, Daleyrocks, I don’t know exactly what Romney did to achieve them, what others did to achieve them, or how they relate to his bid for office. The burden of proof is on Romney to show me he would be a good president, rather than on me to prove he wouldn’t be.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  101. Add in the post 9/11 security precautions, running the games at a $100 million profit was a huge accomplishment.

    He was also in charge of the overall budget, staffing, etc, as well as being the primary fundraiser: that alone is probably executive experience equal to running a big city, at least.

    And the position also meant he was working at an international level, which means he probably has more foreign relations experience than anyone that’s been named in this thread, except Bolton.

    My problem with Romney is the flip flop factor.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  102. Mitt’s first instincts are problematic, but it has nothing to do with his face, supporting the sacking
    of the GM CEO, endorsing Obama’s soft shoe on the green revolution, and pushing Hosni, under the bus,
    at first chance,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  103. Dustin – Maybe it because you have demonstrated that your eyes are firmly shut.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    I am open about my views on Romney and other candidates. I can either just admit I have a bias, and explain specifically why, while setting a fair request for the argument that would change my mind, or I can lie about it, pretending my bias doesn’t exist.

    Romney did what, exactly, on the steering committee, that justified you crediting him with Salt Lake City making money? Would they have made more money without Romney there? Less? Why? In what way would those Olympics have been less profitable without him? As far as I can tell, Romney did nothing special.

    At Bain, Romney brought in investors. That means he was able to show serious people a serious plan, and convince them he could follow through. Great. But presenting in this vague way, Romney totally fails to show he is a brilliant financial analyst. This seems to be the most credible part of the claim Romney would be a great president, and it’s just not enough without some specifics.

    And we both know those specifics probably don’t exist, or we’d have heard all about them by now.

    ——

    Obama made a real estate deal that was far more profitable than Bain’s percentage. Presented this vaguely, someone could say he’s a financial genius, but we all know it was just a crooked deal with Tony Rezko.

    Donald Trump could also be presented both as terrible or brilliant without someone highlighting specifics.

    The reason it seems like my mind is closed is because Romney’s had long enough to make his case that I realize it will never be made. It has nothing to do with me being unfair.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  104. He was also in charge of the overall budget, staffing, etc, as well as being the primary fundraiser: that alone is probably executive experience equal to running a big city, at least.

    This wasn’t mentioned before, unless I missed it.

    OK, I can acknowledge that this shows both executive experience and skill. It’s better than some candidates can show, and less than some candidates can show.

    he probably has more foreign relations experience than anyone that’s been named in this thread, except Bolton.

    I find that hard to believe. Again, I need to know specifically how he negotiated with foreign governments.

    I don’t mean to be a dick about this. Maybe the problem is that too many people are completely insincere when they argue about candidates that it’s hard to believe someone seriously wants to know exactly what they are asking about.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  105. And supporting Israel can be just for the purposes of supporting a western democracy in a sea of dictatorships and extremism, rather than violating one’s racial loyalty to fellow Arabs for Jews.

    But the racial loyalty can determine the level of enthusiasm and commitment. One can support Israel as an intellectual proposition without being committed to the idea (which I think describes Obama), or one can be a firm supporter with some level of emotional commitment (which I think describes Bush) or one can even be over enthusiastic (which I think describes Palin at this point). Where does Daniels fall on that spectrum? We don’t really know, and it’s fair, in light of that Arab ancestry, unless and until he gives us evidence otherwise, to think his support for Israel may be of the lukewarm variety which Obama demonstrates.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  106. I find that hard to believe. Again, I need to know specifically how he negotiated with foreign governments.

    I was comparing him to the other people mentioned in this thread as possibilities. Unless I missed someone or something, the only one who’s actually dealt with foreign governments as a negotiator/diplomat is Bolton, and he’s not actually running at this point. Romney’s resume may be thin on this point, but because of the Olympics (which, remember, is an international organization involved with foreign governments) it’s probably thicker than that of the rest of the field.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  107. Kishnevi, I get where you’re coming from. I hate that kind of argument, though.

    And I think it’s irrelevant. All the candidates need to express their various foreign policy views. All of them need to make a clear statement on Israel and the GWOT and also the sub issues like GITMO or extraordinary rendition or waterboarding or how to contain Iran.

    I know a lot of Jews and WASPs who are far less supportive of Israel than I am (my heritage is a lot closer to Daniels’s).

    It’s fair, in light of the fact he’s probably running for president, to expect some serious explanations on these issues. I don’t want to start caring what people’s heritage is.

    Onto Romney again Here’s a story about the Salt Lake City’s Olympics.

    Romney’s brief comment is straightforward and honest. He expected to break even if you don’t count a $380,000,000 contribution from US Taxpayers, which was far more than they contributed to the LA or Atlanta games. I’m not counting the $1,000,000,000 in infrastructure improvements from federal dollars.

    In other words, Romney succeeded at the Salt Lake Games thanks to tax and spend politics and a very good TV deal. Some taxpayers subsidized for others.

    To be fair, the story makes clear Romney inherited a financial disaster and turned it around to a profitable (at that time they thought break even, but they did better) situation. that’s great, but it’s only possible thanks to massive federal spending.

    That’s why I asked for specifics. I’m sick and tired of people taking credit for things they didn’t really accomplish. It’s easier to make a profit when the government pays a huge chunk of your expenses.

    I’m annoyed that I’m called unfair for this kind of POV.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  108. 98.MD in Philly, there is no recalling a president!
    Comment by Milhouse

    I say “turn about is fair play”, Obama doesn’t feel he needs to go by the Constitution, neither do I- besides, he is the one who took an oath to uphold it.

    And I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me who I’m supposed to be going to dinner with, where, why, and who’s paying?

    I

    MD in Philly (f0e1bd)

  109. If Palin were to acknowledge that she is in no way shape or form a person what is of presidential caliber she would be well on her way to earning the respect what has so far proven so elusive I think.

    Just an idea for her to think about if she wants to take her little act to the next level.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  110. Pikachu, have you thought of what your new best friend, Mike Murphy said, maybe you can have that
    supercookie, while you ponder.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  111. I do not know this Mike Murphy I will google him up

    brb

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  112. After CNN broke the news that the third-term representative was taking steps toward a presidential bid, Republican strategist Mike Murphy assured Time magazine readers that she was a kook: “As I tweeted a few weeks ago, Michele Bachmann makes Sarah Palin look like Count Metternich.”*

    ok now I have to google Count Metternich this isn’t a fun game

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  113. Austrian diplomatic theorist, Kissinger wrote his thesis on him,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  114. I always love these people who assure Time magazine of something or other. It’s not good enough to say it. They have to assure TIME…

    The comparison of Palin to Metternich has mind boggling potential–not because of any supposed differences in mental acuity (which is probably what Murphy meant), but the differences in style and political philosophy. It’s not for nothing that Kissinger chose him for his thesis topic.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  115. “And I repeated that figure in Mitt’s defense, remember? It was in this thread.” – You acknowledged that Romney doubled peoples’ money, not that he did it on an annual basis, a HUGE difference.

    “I don’t know exactly what Romney did to achieve them” – One problem is that you have not really specified exactly what you need to hear to be convinced. When most folks I know hear that when an operation generated a 113% compound annual return over a CEO’s tenure, they assume the CEO had something to do with it. You remain unconvinced on that point and assume all Romney did was raise money.

    “Romney did what, exactly, on the steering committee?” Congratulations, now you appear to have done some research. He inherited a disaster. Did those government dollars appear out of thin air? Who obtained those?

    “I’m annoyed that I’m called unfair for this kind of POV.” You’re not being called unfair for that POV. You’re being called unfair for blithely calling Romney just a member of the steering committee, when he was in charge of the whole thing, not knowing it went from fiscal hole and disgrace when he took it over, to a profit.

    You are being called unfair for assuming that the only thing the CEO of a private equity firm does is raise money and misinterpreting the rate of return figure posted earlier.

    “I don’t mean to be a dick about this.” Then stop beating around the bush and say what bugs you about Romney and areas you need more information. I’m sick of people casting aspersions on candidates because they don’t understand something or have not done their homework or are scared of their religion.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  116. Sorry – The above comment was for Dustin

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  117. “He expected to break even if you don’t count a $380,000,000 contribution from US Taxpayers”

    I garondamtee you a federal contribution to Olympics in a place like Chicago would have disappeared down a rat hole so quickly it would have made your head spin.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  118. He invested in some key companies that had significant growth, Clear Channel, being one of the top of my head, there were others that had labor troubles, after it had been sold off, the one the Globe, used to take him down in ’94, that Taibbi was recycling in Rollings Stone,Coulter describes the details in Guilty, Chapter 7, as I recall

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  119. Me I’m not terribly chuffed about this Romney person either I suppose I could tell you why if you really wanted to know. It’s a lot the same as why I’ve a bit of disdain for that Palin woman.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  120. It’s fair, in light of the fact he’s probably running for president, to expect some serious explanations on these issues. I don’t want to start caring what people’s heritage is.

    I would think those explanations mandatory. Or to put it another way, if Candidate A gives an unsatisfactory explanation, and Candidate B gives no explanation, I’ll opt for Candidate A.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  121. You are about as fair to Romney as you were to the witch, Dustin. Being President and CEO of the steering committee is a wee bit more than just being on the committee, as you seem intent on describing it as.

    JD (acb2e8)

  122. I think it i effing ridiculous to apply a standard to someone because they had a grandparent that was a Christian immigrant from an Arab country.

    JD (acb2e8)

  123. Found that Murphy piece in Time.

    something tells me he doesn’t like Bachmann.
    Instead, the vital swing voters who will decide the 2012 election will look at Michele Bachmann on the campaign trail and howl like villagers getting their first torch-lit glimpse of Frankenstein’s monster.

    But she is a sure-fire loser, both in the GOP nomination race and — should fearsome Martians invade the Earth and demand at ray-gun point that she be the Republican nominee — in a general election

    But his real complaint is that GOP voters no longer stay quiet and do what the party bosses tell them what to do.

    There was a time in the Republican Party, before the chaos of the Internet, cable TV howlers and all the rest of the modern campaign circus when pragmatic political bosses would labor silently and effectively to prevent train wreck candidacies like Michele Bachmann from sprouting up and distracting attention from the very serious business of nominating the party’s Presidential candidate. No more, alas.

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  124. Comment by JD — 3/25/2011 @ 7:28 pm
    It’s not applying a standard, JD, it’s reading the tea leaves because at the moment there is no other evidence as far as I know for what his views on the Middle East or other foreign policy matters are.

    (If you know of any statements he has made, please point me to them.)

    kishnevi (60aae7)

  125. This was Murphy’s wisdom almost two years ago:
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1904136,00.html

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  126. Being President and CEO of the steering committee is a wee bit more than just being on the committee, as you seem intent on describing it as.

    Yeah, that’s true. I was asking for specifics, and you were too busy insulting me to bother actually… ya know… explaining that to me. Kishnevi explained it and then I granted that was impressive experience. I guess you missed that, but it’s right in this thread.

    Yes, I am as fair to Romney as I was towards O’Donnell, which is to say extremely fair. Even with people freaking out that I am skeptical of some politician they like, I’m still willing to grant a point in their favor when I come across one.

    Sorry, but Romney has a high burden to overcome for a lot of voters due to his changing his mind on what his fundamental values are. When people are extremely vague about his business skill, and play games when asked to clarify, it’s not convincing.

    They guy used a ton of federal money for those olympics, JD. Is that how he’ll save the federal government from debt? From my POV, it looks like he was responsible for those Olympics being more successful, but it also looks like his solution was the same tax and spend ideas that have led to bigger problems.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  127. In just two years America will be too wretchedly poor and brokedick and dependent on Arab oil to have any other “Middle East policy” except for bending over and smiling, and then letting the Chinese take their turn. Be gentle, China, America the weak will say. Such are the wages of cowardice, and no nation in history has blanched so fiercely in the face of duty as has Barack Obama’s America. Ours is a country what eagerly spent its way into a legs-splayed oblivion, simply because it didn’t have the courage to do what was needed when it needed to be done.

    Who knew when we were little the American flag was but boomertrash toilet paper?

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  128. Romney is a witch that should be burned at the stake, and/or dunked in water.

    JD (318f81)

  129. You acknowledged that Romney doubled peoples’ money, not that he did it on an annual basis, a HUGE difference.

    OK, my mistake. That is an amazing rate of return.

    You are being called unfair for assuming that the only thing the CEO of a private equity firm does is raise money and misinterpreting the rate of return figure posted earlier.

    I didn’t assume anything. I asked what he did, specifically, that is responsible for that rate of return. When someone asks a question, and says they are not yet convinced, and even says that someone is probably good at something, the only assumption is that they need to hear the full story.

    BTW, I’m still waiting. So far, it’s unclear how Romney managed that insanely awesome rate of return.

    Then stop beating around the bush and say what bugs you about Romney and areas you need more information. I’m sick of people casting aspersions on candidates because they don’t understand something or have not done their homework or are scared of their religion.

    I’m not scared of his religion. That’s a very cheap shot. You’re the one making assumptions.

    I have been extremely specific in my questions.

    I’ve also been specific about what bugs me about Romney, without going over all the same things people always say about him because we all know it’s well established that his fundamental values have flipped 180 degrees when most convenient, and that he was not a popular governor at the end of his single term. I don’t trust politicians whose principles flip flop, so when I see Romney taking credit for incredible successes without specifics, I ask for those specifics.

    Pretending I’m some anti mormon bigot is not going to help Romney.

    I garondamtee you a federal contribution to Olympics in a place like Chicago would have disappeared down a rat hole so quickly it would have made your head spin.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Ok. So? Romney’s olympics lost money if you take that money into account. As best as I can tell, Romney took over when it was a disaster, so I’m not blaming him for that. See? I’m extremely fair to Romney. I don’t assume he gets credit for a success or a failure without specifics.

    You say you’re sick of people being too critical of GOP candidates. I’m sick of fluff candidates who look pretty and are actually ineffective leaders, or lack fundamental principles they are willing to stand for even if it’s costly to them. I haven’t hidden this bias of mine, and I haven’t been unfair to Romney’s resume, which is certainly impressive in some senses, but falls so far short of Presidential it’s laughable he’s even running.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  130. Romney is a witch that should be burned at the stake, and/or dunked in water.

    Comment by JD

    He’s a good man who can’t be trusted with the highest pressure job in the land, or with cutting entitlement spending.

    O’Donnell was willing to be dishonest at the drop of a hat and was politically too far to the right to win in that commie hellhole.

    I still don’t know why you were convinced I was unfair to O’donnell.

    Sarcasm is not an argument. Frankly, the people I do not trust are not welcome at the debates, IMO. I do want to hear all the other candidates give their views at the debate, but the ones who have shown a lack of honesty about their principles shouldn’t waste my time.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  131. Dustin,

    Romney lost to a guy who lost, the only one that I know of to overcome this was actually – Reagan, who lost to ford who then lost to Carter, – given the fact that he spent 110 million to Huckabees 12 million (still confirming Hucks 12)

    Romney had noting to do with the Salt Lake City success – calling something a profit when gobs of taxpayer money are dumped into a project is a stretch.

    Also, if he’such a financial wiz kid – whats this about him living in Utah while working in Boston?

    Look it up, to run for Gov he had to amend his returns for several years

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  132. Romney had noting to do with the Salt Lake City success

    Well, from what I can tell, it was in extremely bad shape when he stepped in and cleaned the mess up, and I don’t know that it’s his fault gobs of taxpayer money were spent. I would need some specific reason to pin that on him. I think Kishnevi clarified what Romney was doing well enough that it’s only fair to admit he had a lot of executive experience and made major improvements to the Olympics.

    I can’t stand Huckabee and have a hard time even talking about him fairly. Much harder than evaluating Romney. I do note Huckabee’s budget in Arkansas was drastically higher than the Olympics and Huckabee left the state with a pretty good surplus (he also taxed the living hell out of his state). If I recall correctly, Romney didn’t leave MA in debt either, though Romneycare predictably has ballooned into a disaster (And I do blame Romney for this, because what the democrats have done with this entitlement, such as raising the poverty threshold, was quite predictable).

    I don’t say this in support of Huckabee, but to point out that when I did not automatically grant that Romney is superior to others on this topic, it’s not really that insane.

    EPWJ, sometimes when you criticize a politician it looks like you’re throwing everything you can think of at them. That sets the tone in a way where people are defensive rather than conversational.

    If you look at how Kishnevi and I interacted on Romney, it’s conversational and even positive for Romney. When someone asks an open ended question, it doesn’t need to invite a bunch of attacks.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  133. Romney is a pickleninny what has stood around for four years with a hand on his hip saying “I should totally be president. You know who should like totally be president? ME!”

    Meanwhile there were things in our doomedy doomedy doomed little country what needed doing. Things what might have helped. Romney left all that rot to Jindal and Daniels and Barbour and Mr. Paul Ryan and various and sundry other not-totally-gay Team R stalwarts. He was grooming himself, you see.

    Not unlike a baboon with a waterpik albeit a really really rich baboon. And you know what monkeys do. They rip your face off.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  134. Fisking EricPWJohnson’s #31:
    Nixon, arguably one of the best, had about as much epereince just 2 or 3 more years before being VP
    — OR, 4 years in the House and 2 years in the Senate. Feel free to continue the argument with the hamstas in yo head, but more IS more.

    What experience does Romney have other than getting born into fabulous wealth and given a career by his parents and church?
    — Oh, and that ‘Governor of Massachusetts’ thing (and running the Olympics) if you think that counts for anything.

    Gingrich is a contender, the most experienced, totally unelectable
    — By definition, ‘contender’ and ‘unelectable’ are incompatible terms.

    Palin isnt running, and it looks like the conservatives in Alaska are undoing her initiatives – which precludes her from running
    — Two lies about her in one sentence! You are nothing if not an economical writer.

    Perry is also considering a run, he might just be the one, Perry Bachmann ticket would work well or a Bachmann Perry
    — Nob, door numb!

    But JFK, Carter, Nixon, Bush II, Obama, none had any executive experience (except Carter) and it seems that personality seemed to be the modulating trend this last 50 years
    — JFK was in the Senate, Bush II was a governor (like Carter), Nixon (no great personality) was Vice-President, an Executive position (at least the last time I checked). Does babbling incoherently cause you to believe your own ramblings?

    Icy Texan (722f65)


  135. and yes, brown is alot more liberal than i think many people thought

    Oh, GEEEZ.

    It’s TED KENNEDY’S DISTRICT!

    Did you REALLY believe they were going to actually elect someone who would usually agree with Rush about the right choices?

    The amazing thing about the waltzing bear is not how well he waltzes, but that he waltzes at all.

    Brown is waltzing to a substantially “right of Teddy” tune. That, in itself, is both amazing and far more than anyone had any business looking for in that seat. That it’s still left of where a sensible person would want it to be isn’t the least bit surprising.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  136. Does babbling incoherently cause you to believe your own ramblings?

    I have found this to be very effective.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  137. Of course there’s always the guerilla librarian, from Monty Python, truth is Bachmann has done quiet
    a bit of service, exposing various administration
    schemes, including the totally blinkered Geithner
    idea of another reserve currency other than the dollar, or the Obamacare inplementing funds, in the CR. And yet the more viable candidates, so called, have done little to act on it.

    Meanwhile the likes of Walker, who really has tried to install some semblance of sound budgeting, well he’s getting shelled left right and center,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  138. Happy:

    I don’t know you, but that may be the the most profound thing you ever said. In a good way.

    Ag80 (efea1d)


  139. Palin and Christie are far short on experience too

    Palin I’ll grant you somewhat, since she got the Veep nom only 2 years into her term, but by the time the election rolls around Christie will have close to 4 years under his belt. You might want more but he’s shown guts and principles and a willingness to go against entrenched powers-that-be, and those are certainly qualities the next PotUS is going to need In Spades.

    It’s time we had some elected reps who will stand up and make the hard choices and force the rest to follow them. Otherwise, we need to keep voting out the bastards until the whole system collapses or they Get It.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  140. 119. Me I’m not terribly chuffed about this Romney person either I suppose I could tell you why if you really wanted to know. It’s a lot the same as why I’ve a bit of disdain for that Palin woman.
    Comment by happyfeet — 3/25/2011 @ 6:59 pm

    — So what is it? you have the same disdain for Mormons that you have towards women?

    Romney left all that rot to Jindal and Daniels and Barbour and Mr. Paul Ryan and various and sundry other not-totally-gay Team R stalwarts. He was grooming himself, you see
    — Oh yes, because the only job that the two of them engage in is self-promotion and eternally running for office; is that it? How long had Reagan been a former governor when he won?

    Icy Texan (722f65)

  141. Yes, Igotbupkis, that’s fair.

    I know everyone is at odds with a lot of my opinions today, but I admit I think 4 years executive experience is still falling short. Specifically, I think reelected governors have the necessary experience to be credible candidates.

    As you say, I might want more, but he’s shown guts and principles and a willingness to make his case. Damn you are right that this is extremely critical. And to be a little more on topic, I think Bachmann has at least this.

    I want the charisma of Rubio with the experience of Daniels with the fire of Christie. That’s right… I want Newt. Just Kidding.

    I’m probably going to have to compromise. I had to in 2008 when I supported Romney over Mccain and Huckabee. I’m going to reserve my decision until the debates, but right now I prefer Daniels and would be thrilled with Christie. Both of them are imperfect, but that’s life.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  142. Mr. Texan I splained in #133 I do not disdain Mr. Romney for his mormonyness. But it’s not a selling point neither.

    Bingo!! dingdingding!!! Both Palin and Romney are self-promoters what much like Barack Obama have confuzzled the seeking and winning of the presidency with a successfully executed marketing campaign.

    This is what they have in common, and yes these are similar pursuits. But also there are some very real and fundamental differences. Or at least there used to be.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  143. Newt is a pompous global warming whore. When he’s not cheating on his wife with one of his staffer chicks he’s usually letting global warming tie him up with stockings while he purrs I’ve been a naughty naughty Newt I need a spanky spanky.

    True story.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  144. happyfeet, who would you pick for the nomination?

    And no, I wasn’t serious about Newt. He’s brilliant and I wouldn’t really mind him that much as president. He could be a good one, for all I know, but he’s not electable and he’s made quite a few political errors. I also think my man, Daniels, has made some marketing errors that have a lot of people suspicious of him. He shouldn’t be our nominee if he can’t play politics well enough to beat Obama.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  145. I would pick Mr. Daniels and then just take a moment to feel very good about our country being in extraordinarily capable and determined hands. I sometimes wonder but that I’ll never know this feeling again, and this makes me feel sad.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  146. Dustin,

    You are right about throwing everything in, its just was in a hurry, we have a huge sandstorm and had to drive all the way across town for track practice that they wisely decided to cancel – after I got my youngest there

    Expat life, and ast night was in the middle of the night.

    Look, Romney isnt the Dr NO to spending that we need, you are right, we need an as$HOLE like Perry who really doesnt give a flip, doesnt care if the senators of the other party flees the state, and just looks at his nails while the crying and whining about the poor and the children goes on and on and then cuts the budget across the board.

    Dosent care about what people say or think about him,

    Bachmann as that same quality

    these are the kinds of people we need

    Romneys heart is in the right place – its just his spine isnt

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  147. “I’ve also been specific about what bugs me about Romney, without going over all the same things people always say about him because we all know it’s well established that his fundamental values have flipped 180 degrees when most convenient, and that he was not a popular governor at the end of his single term.”

    Dustin – The above type of criticism is fair. Saying you mistrust his Olympic work or business work because you have no evidence that he actually did anything is not. It’s simple. I already explained what private equity firms did way above. What U.S. games did not accept large amounts of public money?

    Again, how wealthy was his family?

    EricPW – How about a link about those amended tax returns?

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  148. Daley – I have been trying to figure out what the relevance of that whole amended tax return thingie is. Is epwj just pulling shlt from his arse again?

    JD (318f81)

  149. JD – He is big fan of it. To me it depends what the amendments were for. Residency are one thing, cheating another. He did not say in this instance, predictably.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  150. I just cannot figure out how it is relevant to his competence. Again, the ironic part of this is that I cannot stand Romney, but like with many others, the actual reasons to not support someone are being glossed over for BS reasons.

    JD (318f81)

  151. No who you really want in Tom Delay, he had almosta Colonel Hannibal Smith attitude toward the Dems, and look what they did to him. by one of those rogue prosecutors, Ronnie Earle,

    narciso (b545d5)

  152. Daley and JD

    Here you go

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mitt_Romney_residency_issue

    In April 2002, after returning to the state and deciding to run for governor, Romney altered his 1999 and 2000 tax returns, changing his residency status for those years to Massachusetts resident from Utah resident. In doing so he paid back to Utah $54,000 in property tax deductions.

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  153. JD

    Again, yet again you are wrong, dead wrong totally completely dead dead dead dead wrong.

    But really no one’s surprized eh?

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  154. Really, EPWJ, given your history of, um, unusual statements…why do you try to pick fights?

    But then, everyone here knows. Why not give it a rest?

    Simon Jester (4f139f)

  155. Simon

    Read the thread – I didnt pick the fight and its common knowledge that Romneyflip flops including deciding where he is living, has lived etc

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  156. Okay, I will play along with the clown. What, exactly, am I wrong about, epwj. After you get done with that, answer daley’s specific question above. Then, explain just WTF your residency BS has to do with well, anything, especially how that relates to his competency as an executive. I suspect there is a sandstorm brewing in the deep sands and you will do your standard gibbering gibbon routine.

    JÐ (822109)

  157. Dustin – The above type of criticism is fair. Saying you mistrust his Olympic work or business work because you have no evidence that he actually did anything is not. It’s simple. […] What U.S. games did not accept large amounts of public money?

    That’s fair, but I’m just asking questions about his resume. It’s often cited, and very rarely is it well explained. I have a hard time trusting Romney and so I also have a hard time trusting his background.

    As a result, the Sale Lake experience is clarified quite a bit. There are some specific examples of how Romney was running a lot of aspects of it. These responsibilities are impressive, but nowhere near presidential caliber. It’s more like Obama claiming executive experience for running his massive campaign. Sure, there’s some leadership involved, but it’s not a qualification for leader of the free world.

    The profitability Romney gets credit for doesn’t really exist when you compare the Salt Lake Games’s burden to the US Taxpayer with other Olympics. That’s just math. He still appears to have saved those games from a much worse financial situation, but I know exactly why Romney doesn’t go into specifics on this.

    This is not a good example of why I can count on Romney to fight against federal spending, after all.

    It’s not like I’m just pulling crap from this air. I think this discussion is resolved. I asked for details and got some. It’s impressive to a limit.

    I already explained what private equity firms did way above.

    Me too. Again, I’ve tried to be fair to Romney, noting how as CEO he probably did x,y,z, and apparently did so very well. I then ask precisely what he did that’s amazing. After all, he’s running for leader of the free world, and having ruled out his Governorship or Salt Lake Olympics as excellent performance, I need something akin to how I described Fiorina or Christie or Walker. Some excellent, hard, leadership that might save us from the debt crisis.

    I’ve heard nothing like that. If I come across as unfair because I’m sticking to my guns, sorry.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  158. JD

    He is a financial guru is he not?

    Does he not know where he lives?

    Is he completely unaware of the implcations of each states Tax structure? (you cant really make a case that Romney – who blamed his accountant – didnt know where he lived)

    He was flirtng after the olympics as running for Governors of either Utah or Mass

    Oh and we haven’t gon into the difference in state income taxes yet – those records are not public yet but I’ll bet they may become public accidentally if he gets the nomination

    In comclusion – a Wall Street Executive, specialist extradinaire in sophisticated financial deals taking advantage of volumes of faint tax related minutia – didnt know which state he should file taxes in for several years

    okay then

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  159. So anyway JD thats it – a apparently was avoiding the higher income taxes and taking advantage of the lower property taxes s well while living and working mainly in Boston at the tie he was claiming to be a resident of Utah

    Now there are circumstances that he may have paid Mass taxes on his income but we dont know until he runs and he did pay taxes on his income under Utah which at that time I believe had an income tax but was 20% or more lower than Mass.

    Without disclosing his returns – we will never know

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  160. You know, JD, I read that the majority of Romney flipflops are Christian these days. Due to rock throwing. Also, there have multiple reports of meltdowns during the past 20 years, because his taxation policy in Alaska.

    I heard it on Al-Jazeera; don’t give me a bad time about it; take it up with them. Besides, you aren’t an expert and he makes more money than you do..

    Google it.

    Serious, JD, it’s just a game to this guy. At the lake house.

    Simon Jester (4f139f)

  161. So, you are just making shlt up then, epwj. Gotcha.

    JÐ (6e25b4)

  162. Then, explain just WTF your residency BS has to do with well, anything, especially how that relates to his competency as an executive.

    I don’t see the problem, either. EPWJ, sometimes it comes across like you’re just throwing whatever you can come up with against whoever you’re targeting.

    When I ask about Romney’s leadership ability and how it relates to the debt crisis, there’s an obvious point. What’s the point if he moved or amended his taxes? If that was Romney’s biggest problem I’d be really happy.

    Think about your favorite candidates, Perry and Bachmann. I could come up with 200 pages of complaints about Perry.

    My point is that these guys have to compete against one another. I think there are candidates with much better and more relevant leadership experience than Romney has, so my comments have an ultimate point other than just bashing Romney.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  163. btw, I think my commentary on Mitt is done for the time being. I didn’t mean to instigate a huge ruckus, but I am glad to have learned more about him.

    It’s a bit worrisome for me, because I know JD doesn’t like him and I doubt Daleyrocks would say he’s the best contender, so what happens when we start arguing about the better candidates? Or when we’re arguing with people we’re not on pretty good terms with?

    I think this is going to be the worst primary in American history. Worse than the antebellum election. The right is full of frustration, and every candidate is a coming up a little short.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  164. And so in conclusion the dividey videy Palin is a stupid idea for a candidate and the Huckabee, he has grotesque excess skin folds some of which are probably prone to infection and the Romney, he’s a prancey prancey pony with a cherry on top and the Newt is a depraved adulterous global warming whore what likes him a little spanky spanky and the Bachmann is just wasting everybody’s time cause I mean c’mon get real.

    It would be helpful for the America if these monkeydunks would go away for until the election happens they could all get campers and go to a KOA campground and just hang out and play hackey sack and get off the grid for awhile and reflect on their uselessness and think about how in the future they can maybe be more functional as opposed to decorative.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  165. *hacky* sack I meaned

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  166. Dustin, I am reminded of what Rumsfeld said, and was pilloried about: you go to war with the forces you have, or words to that effect.

    I would feel MUCH better if the Left was equally exacting regarding their candidates. But they aren’t. Even with some folks on the Left being upset with BO at present, they’ll still vote for him reflexively.

    So if the Right gets all purity-ified regarding their candidates, why, we’ll get four more years of BO. And probably two more SCOTUS appointments. And there will be people, some of whom post here, who will stamp their feet and just insist that the R candidate they dislike would be as bad or worse than BO.

    It’s in the prior posts on this website, and it is complete and utter lunacy. Sorry.

    So…what’s the answer? I think that folks would be better served getting involved NOW. That doesn’t mean clever word play, or finding things on the internet. It means going out and getting involved, now, in hopes of “better candidates” making it through the primary process.

    But that takes work. Some of the readers will step up. Others prefer to snark and make jokes (and I am not pointing fingers at anyone; it is a general observation).

    Again: you don’t like the field developing for the 2012 election, why, start working NOW to push the candidates you do like. I’m actually getting involved in grassroots organizations where I live.

    It’s not amusing and funny, and the locals I have been talking to are scared. It’s easier to make jokes and try to sound clever and be negative. But trying to push “good” candidates is important, especially when you think about Four More Years.

    Simon Jester (1b9771)

  167. they should be scared America stands on a precipice of very real doom, so precarious are its finances – the boomertrash have bequeathed a hellishly squalid and impotent whorenation to their kids and grandkids and it’s gonna get ugly

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  168. Less hackeysack, and more local involvement, maybe?

    Simon Jester (1b9771)

  169. Eric is like the middle child of the family.

    He’ll make shit up just for the attention it brings him.

    Icy Texan (b75196)

  170. local involvement? The writing is on the wall. You Americans have squandered your prosperity you let George Soros’ little boy blow it and now there’s no corn for the cow.

    local involvement? Your little country isn’t printing printing printing money locally. It’s doing it quite openly on the international stage like a cheap whore flashing her reptiles on a street corner.

    local involvement? Your little country doesn’t need more zoning it needs to man up and stop being so craven and cowardly and face the pressing issues what are dooming her to a future of being spat on kicked and ridiculed by hard-working, brave Chinese Brazilians and Indians.

    you need a candidate what will stand up and call Obama out for the cheap craven Soros prostitute he is. Who will point at his whore wife and say hoochie we don’t give a crap what you think about our diet our little country is drowning in debt we need a candidate what will say look you homo losers you can’t afford to bomb Libya who do you think you are? A superpower?

    It is to laugh.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  171. Well, someone is laughing. Spend your energy however you like.

    Simon Jester (1b9771)

  172. derp!

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  173. JD

    You saw the links and the information, you can choose to ignore interviews with him, court cases a 41 page ruling, his amending his tax returns for 2 possibly 3 years

    We know facts get in the way of name calling, glad you don’t participate in it – much…

    So you were dead wrong – again, and again..

    EricPWJohnson (c88554)

  174. Oh, my:

    “…So you were dead wrong – again, and again…..”

    Like I said, a game. Dude, think about how you have been skooled, over and over again. How you have said the most outrageously bizarre nonsense. Pick a new subject, and try to build a reputation for non-over the top weirdness.

    Folks can and will give you a chance. But right now, calling anyone at all “wrong” or “weird” is, um, a bit ironic.

    You can get angry if you like, but JD is not the only person who laughs at your posts. Seriously.

    Simon Jester (1b9771)

  175. What language was #72 written in? How hard is it for you to answer a simple question, rainman epwj?

    JÐ (306f5d)

  176. Romney is a flip flopper get over it EPWJ.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  177. “Again, yet again you are wrong, dead wrong totally completely dead dead dead dead wrong.”

    EricPW – No. You usually don’t get a homestead deduction in a state which is not your principal residence. Amemnding your returns to change the state of your principal residence would require the taxpayer to pay back such prior deductions. If you knew anything about taxes, you would understand that.

    The amendments came about as a result of the Democrats trying to disqualify Romney from the gubernatorial ballot. His taxes were prepared by an outside firm who messed up the residency angle while he was working on the Olympics. He wound up on the ballot. Can you actually point to anything untoward on the amended returns?

    Here’s a link:
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56111,00.html

    I’m also awaiting support for your allegation that all his success in life is due to his family’s wealth and his church. Also please disclose his family’s wealth.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  178. “I have a hard time trusting Romney and so I also have a hard time trusting his background.”

    Dustin – That’s been pretty obvious and it would have saved a lot of jerking around for you to just come out and say that. Basically it doesn’t really matter what people say, you don’t trust the guy, for some unidentifiable reason. You did not do your homework on his background before spewing ignorant comments about it on the thread, because there was no need, you have a gut dislike for the guy.

    I’m not a Romney supporter, I just don’t like candidates unfairly smeared the way they have been on this thread.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  179. Hear hear!

    Icy Texan (b75196)

  180. Well that’s nothing new, isn’t it, daley,just some candidates are supposed to bear with the lies, omissions, distortions, and some are supposed to be immune, come what may.

    narciso (b545d5)

  181. narciso – EPWJ never cleans up after himself. Not house trained.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  182. One can support Israel as an intellectual proposition without being committed to the idea (which I think describes Obama),

    Obama doesn’t support Israel at all. Any support he shows is merely political necessity. The man was a personal friend of both Edward Said and Rashid Khalidi; they and their wives and the Obamas had each other over for dinner, and babysat each other’s children. Samantha Powers was his foreign policy guru. Not to mention his relationships Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers. It is impossible for someone with those associations not to hate Israel and want to see it disappear; it is possible for such a person to realise that saying so out loud would not be a good idea.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  183. I think it i effing ridiculous to apply a standard to someone because they had a grandparent that was a Christian immigrant from an Arab country.

    Like it or not, ethnicity is a fact. Shutting ones eyes and wishing it weren’t so won’t change anything.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  184. Vice-President, an Executive position (at least the last time I checked).

    Check again. The VP isn’t really part of the executive branch; he doesn’t fit neatly into the 3-branch model, but if anything he’s in the legislative branch. Article I gives him an actual job to do; Article II doesn’t. As Palin correctly noted in her debate with Biden, while Biden showed his ignorance.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  185. I mentioned earlier that if Daniels were to announce that John Bolton will be his Secretary of State and foreign policy guru then my qualms would be satisified. How about drawing up a few “dream administrations” for examples? Here’s what I’ve been thinking:

    1. President: Mitch Daniels
    2. VP: Bobby Jindal
    3. State: John Bolton
    4. Energy and Interior (to be consolidated into one dept): Sarah Palin
    5. Defense and Veterans (to be consolidated): Alan West
    6. Attorney General: Eugene Volokh. (OK, get realistic: Michael McConnell)
    7. OMB or Treasurer: Paul Ryan
    8. Homeland Security (to be wound down): Haley Barbour
    9. Labor: Chris Christie
    10. Education (to be wound down): Newt Gingrich

    Any more ideas?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  186. the department of education needs to be abolished it’s a bordello of fail

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  187. Hence “to be wound down”. It can’t just be abolished; that’s not how these things work. Even thoroughly bankrupt companies get administrators to wind them down.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  188. And if Education is “a bordello of fail”, what do you call “Homeland Security”? Bush knew it was a bad idea to create this department in the first place, but he did it as a bribe to the Dems to back him in the War on Islamist Terror. Like all bribes paid to Dems, it wasn’t worth it.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  189. Oh, I forgot:

    8a. Deputy DHS: Bruce Schneier.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  190. Yes and now we can be called racist by the leftshats for putting up an anti-amnesty candidate……….Wait who cares what the leftshats think.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  191. the goal is for Homeland Security to be a piggy piggy union slush fund staffed by fat indolent illiterate twinkie-eaters … we’re very very close

    happyfeet (ab5779)


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