Patterico's Pontifications

3/18/2011

“now YOU are a target;” The New Civility Targets Ann Althouse (Update: Possible Pulitzer and Interview with Shankman)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 6:04 am



[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

Update: I got morbidly curious and looked up the rules on entries for the Pulitzer Prize and, judging by this page and this one, I think maybe Ann would qualify. And she certainly would deserve it.

Update (II): Deroy Murdock has more on the threats made in Wisconsin and notices the similarity to Islamofascist language.

Update (III): Over at Big Government, an interview with Jim Shankman. My favorite part: “Shankman believes reports of thuggery and other misbehavior by Leftist protesters in Wisconsin are ‘all over-blown.'” He reminds me of the Islamofascists who threaten to murder anyone who claims Islam is a violent religion. His irony detector is broken.

Update (IV): Ann gets philosophical about internet threats and other silliness.

Well, you had to wonder how long it would be before the deranged left decided Ann Althouse was the enemy.  Althouse has two posts as of now from a Jim Shankman (here and here).  My only peeve is that it’s not obvious how she received these threatening documents and I wish she would fill that in a little more.

Of course Althouse’s sin has been to make the protesters in Wisconsin look bad.  How has she done that?  Mostly by picking up a video camera and letting them be themselves.

The creepy thing, reading the screed sent to Althouse is its familiarity.  As many here know, I participated in the Everyone Draw Mohammed protests last year and I didn’t mention it much but yeah, now and then I got death threats.  Generally my reaction was to delete it and let them know they have been reported to the FBI.  But here you can see a recent example that I haven’t gotten around to deleting yet.  I don’t want to make too much of it.  I’m not trying to make myself out to be courageous or anything.  Seriously, I believe what this really is, is impotent rage.  I am fully convinced that these guys are just idiots in their pajamas, in their mother’s basement, who think they can intimidate us this way but are in reality incapable of performing.

But this Anti-Althouse screed has a certain “American Taliban” kind of feel, especially in the notion that somehow because she had the temerity to show the world how these idiots really behave she has to leave town.  If the man was serious, he is proposing a very real totalitarianism on American soil.  Hopefully he has the same performance issues as the idiots who threaten me.

On the other hand, as pointed out in the “The Greatest Blog Post Ever Written” and this handy compilation of Wisconsin threats, violence and other bad behavior, there is a context there that would justify some actual fear and concern on Althouse’s part.

We all know that in the wake of the Gabby Giffords shooting the left tried to tar the entire right as “uncivil” in its dialogue which somehow led a communist to attack Giffords (I think the logic of the argument goes something like the business plan of the infamous Underwear Gnomes on South Park).  Indeed I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that the University of Arizona was creating a National Institute for Civil Discourse in honor of Ms. Giffords.  By comparison, Judge Roll will get a much more fitting tribute: a courthouse named after him.

We knew at the time that the party of the Teamsters were just blowing smoke when they pretended to be committed to civility.  The events of the last month only verify that.

————————-

Also you can witness Ann Althouse talking to Megyn Kelly about a video she shot recently:

Rule 5 is in effect, ya’ll.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

177 Responses to ““now YOU are a target;” The New Civility Targets Ann Althouse (Update: Possible Pulitzer and Interview with Shankman)”

  1. Sadly, it was just a matter of time. ‘Good thing she has tenure and it sounds like they’re both taking precautions.

    I predict there will be an incident of arson involving one of those businesses that received the extortion letter from the police and firefighter groups.

    The Left is literally playing with fire.

    Y-not (45d6ad)

  2. The parasitic left. Hooorah!!!!!!!

    Frankly, F* the Teachers. Let them eat noodles and rice. (Add Cops and Firefighters to this list)

    Sick of hearing about how “C” Students from High School deserve more and more and more when they choose that career b/c they could not do more as students and refuse to do much as adults.

    And worse yet, the more we spend to feather their beds — the worse the actual results get.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  3. Ann Althouse and her husband Meade have done exemplary work on covering the protests by the crybaby leftards union goons and their admiring teacher/student supporters in Madison. WHERE are the fabulous talking heads of so-called Mainstream Media in all this? AWOL.
    Naturally few people are thus aware of what really goes on because there is so little coverage. I was just reading comment elsewhere about the efforts to end federal funding of NPR. Some people think NPR is so fair and balanced and Fox news is unhinged. I have no problem with NPR doing whatever they wish editorially but NOT with our tax dollars.
    And it does appear that the local law enforcement in Madison gives tacit approval to the protestors, overlooking whatever crimes they committed. Still, great to see a bastion of Progressive thoughts under siege. Of course now the Left wants judges to overrule the new laws.

    Calypso Louie Farrakhan (798aba)

  4. torq

    i will respectfully disagree. i think teachers are underpaid, but also over privileged.

    We should do four things, imho. 1) reduce class size, 2) pay them more, 3) eliminate tenure, and 4) engage in a radical privatization of public schools, coupled with sizable vouchers so that every school charges and lives off of tuition and every student can afford a basic education.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  5. Professor Althouse and her husband are in the thick of it! Glenn Reynolds has written that the last time someone threatened her, they ended up “begging for mercy.” I wish I knew more about that.

    Some of the “incivility” is just people shooting their mouths off, of course. The trick is to find out when people “mean it.” Which is why I prefer a more civil approach.

    Patterico’s other post today speaks to this issue.

    As for teachers, Aaron, the real challenge is measuring how well students do, and how well teachers teach. It’s not easy to measure, but we need to have some kind of yardstick. It’s always been interesting to me to see unions resist the concept of rewarding teachers for good work. Odd, huh?

    And we can see where that kind of protectionism goes…

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  6. Aaron,

    “i think teachers are underpaid, but also over privileged.”

    Think about what you wrote ……… remember we are in a free, capitalist country where you can do whatever you want to do, then get back to me.

    When I was a kid, government work was low paying but the benefits were “not too much work, not intellectually demanding, lots of job security and benefits.” It has become “really well paying plus everything else.”

    Having been part of the education process, we need less teachers, rate of teaching to speed up, higher expectations of students and parents and more segregation of the C students from the A students.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  7. I couldn’t agree more, Aaron.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  8. I’m not afraid of libtard douchebags like Shankman. I like the FrankJ approach in dealing with them.

    “Most liberals are malnourished vegetarians, so they are underweight and easy to throw.”

    EC (dda60e)

  9. On the subject of education, folks, let’s review.

    1. Take the performance of students in 1960 as a standard (we were working hard on that, post-Sputnik).

    2. Look at changes in how we teach since that time.

    3. Follow test scores.

    4. Continue over the next fifty years.

    Problem is, the scores keep going down, and we kept relaxing standards.

    There is a name for taking a course of action, not liking the results, and then insisting that the course of action is best.

    Lots of things are wrong in education. The lack of focus on education is the most important part of the problem.

    My two cents.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  10. Hehe…whaddya know! I clicked the BigGovernment link and saw a pic of Shankman himself.

    Exactly how I pictured him!

    And yes, he does look skinny and undernourished. Althouse should be able to caber-toss his ass a good 20 feet or so.

    EC (dda60e)

  11. Aaron,

    Lower class sizes sends all the wrong messages to our kids and our parents.

    It is pixie dust thinking in a world with infinite resources to spend on kids.

    We over spend and over indulge the Education establishment and the use of bromides permeates the industry like cancer.

    The message we need to send to adults and kids is

    1) We have finite resources, your kid got issues — find a tutor somewhere. Lots of teachers here need extra cash.

    2) Parents, start parenting and stop driving kids to 5,0000000000,000000000000000 after school activities like dance and art and other useless things like soccer.

    3) Kids, you might be 7, but you need to be responsible in your own special way for mommy and daddy. If not, no chocolate for you or play dates.

    4) Not everyone needs college or for that matter junior or senior year of High School.

    5) Art and PE is great but not when you are flunking math or reading or writing or history or civics.

    … and I got like 50 others.

    If Education was run like a business, it would cut down its service offerings (classes), speed up the factory line (teach more subject matter in a school year), reduce the labor component in the production process (more students per teachers), and get the product out into the marketplace for consumption (get younger people back to work like 40-50 years ago) or further customization at a price (College and Tech schools).

    Education spending is much like tax rates with the Laffer Curve — you can spend way too much. And we do.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  12. …. and by the way, the same wrong headed thinking and bromides that fuel the over consumption of education by US Citizens fuels the same over consumption of health care.

    When bromides and warm fuzzies over take critical analysis — larger and larger percentages of GDP disappear into “Industries” which keep saying “more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more
    .
    .
    .
    .
    more”

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  13. Now I feel guilty for enjoying my visits to restaurants, stores, parks and museums in Madison. That’s some creepy sh!t.

    gp (72be5d)

  14. Eating Steak is just a more efficient delivery methodology for the consumption of grass and corn and other great veggies.

    So in that sense, I, too, am a vegetarian — 1 degree of separation Vegetarian but whatever.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  15. Kman lecturing others on logical fallacies is like Winona Ryder lecturing kids not to shoplift bubble gum.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  16. I got lots of Sock Puppet crap to spew. When is that going up?

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  17. He changed his name on his Facebook page. Last night he was Jim Shankman. Today he is Karl Asoah:
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=651447561

    aunursa (a2a019)

  18. The anarchist thugs sure are amazingly inarticulate clowns.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  19. #20 … and I am sure they all have College Educations.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  20. Lots of things are wrong in education. The lack of focus on education is the most important part of the problem.

    My two cents.

    I agree with Simon’s sentiment here (although I doubt we come down in the same place when all is said and done).

    I think education is the silver bullet to restore America to its former greatness (or, if you will, propel it into future greatness). Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens — in other words, it should be treated, and thought of, just like national defense.

    Kman (5576bf)

  21. I think education is the silver bullet to restore America to its former greatness (or, if you will, propel it into future greatness). Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens — in other words, it should be treated, and thought of, just like national defense.

    This is a perfect example of the bromides I hear daily about education which are 95% incorrect IMHO.

    Absolute “feel good” nonsense.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  22. :roll: bad education is a threat to national security. That means the teacher unions in wisconsin would be charged with treason then.

    Kturdman is an idiot sometimes.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  23. kman

    well, throwing tons of money at the schools in D.C. didn’t make them better. to this day 1) the kids in D.C. would get a better education and 2) the government would save alot of money, if they just subsidized attendance at private schools.

    We pay more and get less.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  24. “the government would save alot of money, if they just subsidized attendance at private schools.”

    Vouchers. Let the money follow the students to the best performing schools. Bad schools get weeded out.

    EC (dda60e)

  25. well, throwing tons of money at the schools in D.C. didn’t make them better.

    Not surprising. It’s more than just spending tons of money — it’s spending tons of money wisely.

    EC

    Let the money follow the students to the best performing schools. Bad schools get weeded out.

    When you weed out schools, that increases the class sizes of remaining schools, making them perform worse.

    Why don’t the pro-voucher people get this?

    Kman (5576bf)

  26. #4,#12

    Below a certain class size (somewhere around five) the teacher is, in effect, a tutor. Once you exceed that limit it really doesn’t matter how much bigger the class gets, the drop off doesn’t get worse with size.

    And it’s not guaranteed that a teacher with a small enough class to tutor the students, will actually make the effort.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  27. Horse manure, Kman. The whole “If only you spent the money wisely” platitude ignores reality entirely.

    But that’s par for the course with you.

    People who think that “education” is a general good preferably slathered on like stucco to the student just show their vapidness.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. Some thoughts on our education system:

    1) Decertify all teachers’ unions.

    2) Tenure! End it, even at the college level.

    3) Fail children who fail, no social promotions.

    4) Kids who disrupt a class, or commit a real crime, should be suspended then, if that doesn’t make them straighten up and fly right, expelled. Do not listen to sob stories from parents who think their little angel is perfect. Actions >>> consequences. A great life lesson to teach.

    5) And like it was said above, grade teachers on their teaching, using some defined scale. I would not expect a special ed teacher to have the same teaching results as the teacher teaching AP courses.

    6) Oh, and stop having teachers come from teachers’ colleges where they learn how to teach. Start getting teachers from math or science or other degreed programs. Just because you have a Master of Ed doesn’t mean you know first grade math.

    Years ago, NYC tried a plan to get more real world experience teachers in the classroom, you know, people who were successful in the real world, with real jobs that had real consequences. Who killed that great idea? Yep, the teachers’ union.

    RickZ (882387)

  29. Florida Governor Scott has the right idea. He is pushing hard for merit raises for teachers who do great work and abolishing tenure. You do a crappy job and might not get a contract next year. I’m sure some teachers are truly dedicated but the slugs settle in and take advantage of the taxpayers. It seems Wisconsin teachers making their $100k+ in pay and benefits as a whole are not performing so well when you break down statistics. Mostly whites in Wisconsin and a place like Texas has many minorities. Wisconsin heavily weighted with white student performance numbers may have higher scores than Texas, but when you compare white vs white, black vs black and Hispanic vs. Hispanic for each state, Texas is out in front. Someone here from Texas can enlighten us on what kind of remuneration teachers receive there and what kind of taxes support the schools.
    Maybe someone can recall what kind of studies kids dealt with back in the early 1900s. It does seem course studies were much more rigorous and none of that touchy-feely liberal propaganda New Age garbage.

    Calypso Louie Farrakhan (798aba)

  30. “When you weed out schools, that increases the class sizes of remaining schools, making them perform worse.

    Why don’t the pro-voucher people get this?”

    Did it ever occur to you that these poor performing schools would be replaced by better ones? Or the good schools would expand to take over the bad ones, to maximize their opportunities to capture voucher money?

    No, ofcourse it didn’t.

    EC (dda60e)

  31. Meanwhile the anarchist and union thugs continue to intimidate with threats of violence while conservative voices are attacked with lies of violence.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  32. kman

    > When you weed out schools, that increases the class sizes of remaining schools, making them perform worse.

    When you create a system where no one can fail, you remove any incentive to perform well.

    make all of the schools for-profit and compete for the subsidies parents would get–vouchers, and either the survival instinct will kick in. or a school will go out of business and be replaced by one that actually cares about delivering a quality product.

    Seriously, you see this argument in no other industry, and indeed you don’t even see it in all of education. universities and day care centers can go under, without suddenly making it impossible for everyone else to do their job.

    what we have now is a socialized education system, with the problems that always come with socialism. liberals see socialism fail over and over again, but they never get the message, thinking, “hey, maybe this time it will work!”

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  33. EC

    bear in mind, kman is a lawyer who apparently knows nothing about how a business is actually run.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  34. Comment by Calypso Louie Farrakhan — 3/18/2011 @ 7:26 am

    Iowahawk went all serious on your very topic.

    http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html

    http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/badgering-the-witless.html

    RickZ (882387)

  35. “bear in mind, kman is a lawyer who apparently knows nothing about how a business is actually run.”

    I am surprised that Kman has never heard of the concept of “competition” before. I wonder what his thought process is like when decides to buy a car, laptop, cell phone, tv programming, mortgage, groceries, etc.

    EC (dda60e)

  36. When you create a system where no one can fail, you remove any incentive to perform well.

    So your solution is to have a system where schools CAN fail.

    That’s nice in theory, except that students will be attending those failing schools (at least until the plug is finally pulled). So how is that any different than what we have now?

    The question, to quote (*gag*) Bush, is “Is our children learning?” When you turn to a for-profit model, the question will very quickly become “Are our schools profitable?”

    Under that regime, a high school with a good football team and stadium will survive, even if its academics are crap.

    what we have now is a socialized education system, with the problems that always come with socialism.

    Would you call our national defense system “socialist” as well?

    Kman (5576bf)

  37. Our national defense system has nothing to do with schools you insignificant snit.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  38. EC:

    I am surprised that Kman has never heard of the concept of “competition” before.

    The concept is great in business, where you have winners and losers. The problem is that we’re talking about education — where the whole idea is to avoid having “losers” at all.

    Kman (5576bf)

  39. Yeah please stop quoting the guy you consider hitler to support your perverted agenda.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  40. Our national defense system has nothing to do with schools you insignificant snit.

    If you’re analogy-impaired, please stay out of the conversation.

    Kman (5576bf)

  41. Kman

    > where the whole idea is to avoid having “losers” at all.

    bwahahahahahaha….

    So bad teachers should never be fired? bad schools should never close?

    And students who don’t do the work should never fail?

    here’s a hint. making it impossible to fail in terms of getting an F, being fired, or seeing a school close, assures the appearance of success while in reality it is a failure.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  42. #36, Ouch, Krugman just took it hard in the shorts.

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  43. Kman

    > please stay out of the conversation.

    You, who are honesty-impaired, should not be talking.

    We have asked you repeatedly to go away.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  44. #43, Pass a law banning Fs!

    #TIGER BLOOD WINNER#

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  45. > where the whole idea is to avoid having “losers” at all.

    bwahahahahahaha….

    So bad teachers should never be fired? bad schools should never close?

    Is that what I said?

    No, the goal is to not have bad schools at all.

    Kman (5576bf)

  46. What I find fascinating is Shankman’s utter lack of self-awareness. There is a certain brutish innocence here, as of a wild animal.

    melanerpes (c5f5da)

  47. “No, the goal is to not have bad schools at all.”

    Kman – Because our current system cannot acknowledge bad teachers or bad students. You’ve got the narrative down pat. Gold star for you.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  48. “Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens — in other words, it should be treated, and thought of, just like national defense.”

    Some who served or have loved ones serving in the military might disagree about that “free” part, and money spent on the military often means more chance of those loved ones coming home without paying the ultimate price. Certainly we have seen repeatedly that cutting the military budget ends up costing lives needlessly. I am not sure how that is responsible fiscal management by people who are supposed to be public servants rather than feudal lords.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  49. Kman

    > Is that what I said?

    Well, if it isn’t then how do you say teachers who are fired, are not “losers” in all of this?

    i mean if you want to say that you are singularly awful at understanding the direct implications of your words, all i can say is… lord, i hope you don’t work in contracts, like… ever.

    > No, the goal is to not have bad schools at all.

    well, if you take away the fear any consequences from failure, you assure that you will have bad schools. seriously you have no grasp of even basic economics, do you?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  50. Pulitzer Prize? Maybe next year, unfortunately.

    Journalism Guidelines
    Deadline: 2/1/2011

    Nop (fccb8c)

  51. I believe Kman is Paul Krugman.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  52. nop

    i know, but why not get started?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  53. Kman’s Traditional Democrat solution – Throw more money at a bloated broken system and maybe by some miracle something will improve, even though it hasn’t in the past 50 years.

    Republican Solution – Fix the bloated broken system. Don’t throw more money at it.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  54. “When you turn to a for-profit model, the question will very quickly become “Are our schools profitable?”

    Incredible. Is the commenter unaware of the higher performance of private schools? They get better results at lower cost with less danger to students than public schools.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  55. ““Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens”

    Typical Democrat attitude – Nothing is free for this country’s citizens, including national defense. Just because it’s paid for with other peoples’ money does not make it free.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  56. Aaron both her and Meade keep a “google alert” for “Ann Althouse” so the scrib posting hit that-the night before she even posted it.

    **********

    On a totally different topic as a relatively new commenter here and as close to a neutral observer as you might get here-when you first started posting on Japan-the Protein Wisdom crowd looked short of a couple of protons.

    They appoint themselves the What to Blog Police? I thought they looked insane almost instantly-then I tried wading through their side of the thing and the *proof* they had was that Patterico thought the same thing a long time ago after playing with them too much.

    My suggestion is that Patterico “quit them” like his old self instinctively knew to do-what looks like to be years ago.

    PS I grew up in Japan and I was raised by the Japanese-when I got stateside finally the kids kicked the Japanese out of me and the nuns tried to make me right handed -dyslexic ever since.

    Anyways-ancient Japanese saying: Pussy survive earthquake better cuz get out of there fasted.

    Ya I’m a pussy who cares-my ancestors live to say: Na,na, na, na-na.

    Speaking of which Shishuka my nanny always say run to Mt. Fuji.

    Anyways damn it if you hadn’t of posted I never would have seen that print made by your wife’s grandfather-

    absolutely beautiful.

    madawaskan (fd190b)

  57. Shit ” I grew up in Japan” ummm first 5 years….gawd. Anyways.

    madawaskan (fd190b)

  58. This thread started out being about The New Civility. Start another thread for How To Save American Education; hell, you could start a whole new blog on that subject.

    My two cents: it’s everybody’s fault except the taxpayers. I blame the students, parents, teachers, unions, ed schools, and govt. It sure as hell isn’t the taxpayers fault.

    gp (72be5d)

  59. well, if you take away the fear any consequences from failure, you assure that you will have bad schools

    You seem to be stuck on the notion that all we need is to incentivize folks, and all will be well.

    But the problem in the first place isn’t incentives (or lack thereof); it’s a lack of common sense standards and doing what is required to make schools meet them.

    It is ridiculous to say that you will close down schools that are “failing”. THEN what? Wait around and hope another private investor thinks it is profitable to swoop in and re-open it? What happens to students in the meantime? Crowd the classrooms of successful schools in the area?

    seriously you have no grasp of even basic economics, do you?

    I do, and that’s why I think education, like national defense, is too important to be left to the whims of economics and corporate greed.

    Kman (5576bf)

  60. I do, and that’s why I think education, like national defense, is too important to be left to the whims of economics and corporate greed.

    Astonishingly fatuous nonsense, Kman. The reality is that the least competent to be left in charge of education is the Education Establishment. They’ve demonstrated that they have no clue what they are doing. Every new fad in education for the last three decades has been an abject failure.

    And we see in Wisconsin that the education unions are violent thugs who put the interests of their fatcat unions above those of the children they hide behind.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  61. I got lots of Sock Puppet crap to spew. When is that going up?

    Comment by Torquemada

    Ya! Sockpuppet Friday-! Those are the damn funniest!

    madawaskan (fd190b)

  62. we see in Wisconsin that the education unions are violent thugs who put the interests of their fatcat unions above those of the children they hide behind.

    I think many — not all — of the criticisms against the teachers’ unions are fair criticisms. Many of their initiatives don’t necessarily help the cause of education, but the cause of their own wallets.

    Which is precisely why moving to privatize education is no improvement. Decisions will be made to effect the school’s bottom line — decisions which won’t necessarily help the cause of education.

    But at least with public education, with schools run by a local board of education, the voting public can still have some direct input.

    Kman (5576bf)

  63. Kman is Paul Krugman i’am telling you

    DohBiden (984d23)

  64. Public education controlled by a local board of education which is in turn controlled by the voting public?

    Um. Somebody doesn’t have any children in school, does he?

    But hey, thanks for the NPR point of view.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  65. And I do hope that folks are keeping count of the number of times that Kman posts on articles not written by Aaron.

    Creepy, as many have observed.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  66. Comment by Kman — 3/18/2011 @ 8:29 am

    Private schools are not new. Can you tell us in which of the 57 states private, for evil profit, schools have not outperformed public schools in general?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  67. Kman

    > You seem to be stuck on the notion that all we need is to incentivize folks, and all will be well.

    Actually I listed 3 other changes that must be made. But bluntly, if you have both positive and negative incentives, you bet your @$$ they will straiten up. In fact my first three suggestions are superfluous. If we introduce real competition instead of the monopoly of the state, the other three suggestions would happen naturally because that is what a smart business would do.

    It works for every other business. make it possible for them to fail, and they will be much more likely to succeed.

    > But the problem in the first place isn’t incentives (or lack thereof); it’s a lack of common sense standards and doing what is required to make schools meet them.

    But without firing teachers, or closing schools. Bwahahahahhahaha. Seriously, what do you think “doing what is required to make schools meet” your strandards actually means.

    > It is ridiculous to say that you will close down schools that are “failing”. THEN what?

    I didn’t say I would close them down. I said I would turn them into for profit enterprises and let them sink or swim. There is an important difference you don’t comprehend.

    > Wait around and hope

    You seem to imagine that most communities have only one school. That is not the case. but then again, you probably don’t have children given your lifestyle choices, so you might not realize.

    And you are the one who has unrealistic hopes. You don’t want teachers to be fired, you don’t want schools to be closed, but having removed any chance of being punished for failure, you hope they will just work hard as though they could be fired, as though their school could go out of business.

    > I do, and that’s why I think education… is too important to be left to the whims of economics and corporate greed.

    Socialism will work this time! really!

    And your metaphor to the military is, well… stupid. There are some things that can only be done by the government. Fighting war is one of them, because the only alternative is heavy use of mercenary forces which 1) won’t be willing to die for a cause and 2) could be bought out by your opponent at any time. By comparison it’s obvious that private schools could teach our children by the fact that THEY ALREADY DO, ALL THE TIME. We don’t talk about private k-12 schools failing.

    What you want to do is continue what we have now, schools not closing, but still failing.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  68. Machinist, you and I both know the reason that private for profit schools perform better: people don’t respect things that are “free.” That goes for students and especially for parents.

    Sure, you can find “bad” private schools and “great” public schools.

    What I struggle with is how to measure performance of the teachers, and the students. No matter what anyone comes up with, people attack the yardstick used.

    But if you can’t measure it, it isn’t real.

    Still, I know where the smart money is: private schools that promote ownership and accountability, up and down the line.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  69. I went to a private school but that makes me an evil islamophobe according to Kmart.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  70. But at least with public education, with schools run by a local board of education, the voting public can still have some direct input.

    Comment by Kman — 3/18/2011 @ 8:29 am

    When was the last time a member of the public was seated at the negotiating table when public union contract time came up? That’s right, never. Dems gave away the store to public unions in negotiating sessions; there was no other side. So the public ends contributing to Dems, whether they liked it or not, through their (mostly property) taxes which pay the teachers’ salaries who have mandatory dues withheld which go to the union which then makes contributions to Dem candidates so the process can start all over again at the next negotiating session. A great scam which is finally coming to a rightful end.

    RickZ (882387)

  71. Hopefully when the economy collapses the teachers unions are told to take a hike.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  72. By comparison it’s obvious that private schools could teach our children by the fact that THEY ALREADY DO, ALL THE TIME.

    …. which is comparatively easy to do when you don’t have teach ALL or even MOST of the children in a community.

    To say nothing of the fact that most kids who attend private school are predisposed to do well in school because of their socio-economic background.

    What you want to do is continue what we have now, schools not closing, but still failing.

    A closed school, which is what you want, is a waste of resources — of land, of property, of human capital. Like in business, where it is more cost-efficient to fix a bad employee rather than fire him and retrain a new hire, it is better to fix failures in the school system rather than create an assembly line of failures.

    Kman (5576bf)

  73. Stalked on two threads simultaneously, Aaron. It’s like you are a cheerleader being chased by the vice president of the chess club.

    But I did like his last sentence. I’m starting to think that not only is this fellow not a parent, but he has never worked in a company. I cannot think of a better example of a “feelings uber alles” philosophy than this stalkerboi.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  74. Comment by Simon Jester — 3/18/2011 @ 8:40 am,

    Vet good point!

    When I was in management I often was used as a troubleshooting manager when things were not working right. In a new situation one of the hardest things to do and one of the hardest things to sell upper management on was the need for an objective measure of performance that would include productivity, efficiency, speed, accuracy, and safety. Most upper management wanted to retain systems that allowed subjective judgments, basically favoritism and prejudice, in evaluating performance. Few wanted the time invested in a proper system which meant most comparisons between departments or employee promotions were seat of the pants as there was no objective way to know if a move that hurt one department but helped another was a net gain or loss and 20% or more of effort was used in interdepartmental squabbling. Once a proper system was developed it made it easy to look good as these things could not only be measured but documented. The only way to pay top dollar for good employees without increasing payroll was to know who deserved less.

    I think parents do a good job of evaluating private schools. If they don’t see good results in their kids or they don’t think their kids are in a safe environment they will take them out, and don’t listen to excuses. The results are obvious in performance of private school students vs public schools.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  75. “Vet” = “Very”

    Tarnation! I was public school, what can I say?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  76. By comparison it’s obvious that private schools could teach our children by the fact that THEY ALREADY DO, ALL THE TIME.

    This is the most threadbare of all the excuses the public teachers unions trade in.

    To say nothing of the fact that most kids who attend private school are predisposed to do well in school because of their socio-economic background.
    Another favorite teachers union propaganda claim long ago proven objectively false. Private schools do have the advantage of more motivated parents.

    Its been shown time after time that merely giving public schools more money is a failed approach. The education establishment is full of pet projects that need more money, and consistently fail to improve student success. Failure is the main result of teachers unions. The classic example remains the Head Start program – shown time after time, year after year, to have no lasting improvement in student outcomes, it keeps showing up as the favorite way to waste money.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  77. “To say nothing of the fact that most kids who attend private school are predisposed to do well in school because of their socio-economic background.”

    BS! Look at poor inner city kids that get to go to private schools on vouchers, which are usually less than the public school cost. The difference is more one of concerned parents. The ones who don’t care will might leave their kids in public schools but that should not mean that concerned parents should have to sacrifice their children in that PC alter.

    By your standard, publicly funded free colleges should outstrip private, for profit, institutions. Can you suggest some examples of tax payer supported free colleges that are rated in the top leagues? Why haven’t the for profit institutions all cut back on education to where they are considered second rate? Why would private elementary or high schools do so?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  78. Machinist, this character is just spouting Teh Narrative. What you are saying is correct, and anyone who looks into it can see it to be the case.

    No sense in arguing with him, though it is of course your choice. He is just stalking Aaron, after all.

    To get to your point, however, instead of creepy stalkers, there is another problem: many parents are not involved. What to do about them? It’s not an easy problem.

    “Waiting for Superman” drives some Lefties round the bend, but is worth a read.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  79. I’ve read bumper stickers in Boulder with more depth than Kman’s beliefs on education.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  80. Kman

    > But at least with public education, with schools run by a local board of education, the voting public can still have some direct input.

    Actually when you are reduced to a beneficiary and a voter, you get very little power. But if you are a customer…

    > which is comparatively easy to do when you don’t have teach ALL or even MOST of the children in a community.

    No, you have it wrong. They don’t teach all or most of the children in the community because they are frozen out by the anti-competitive nature of the market.

    > To say nothing of the fact that most kids who attend private school are predisposed to do well in school because of their socio-economic background.

    I know lots of kids who go to private school, given that about half my family is catholic. The only thing unusual about their background is that they actually care about their kids education.

    > A closed school, which is what you want, is a waste of resources — of land, of property, of human capital

    A failing school is a waste of resources too. but if you let schools close they are likely to be the only unwasteful option: a successful school.

    > Like in business, where it is more cost-efficient to fix a bad employee rather than fire him and retrain a new hire, it is better to fix failures in the school system rather than create an assembly line of failures.

    In business, employees are made to reform with the threat of being fired. Duh. i mean it is hilarious. You want the schools to be run like a business, but you expect that to happen without making them a business.

    If you want schools to be concerned with efficiency, then make it a matter of financial life or death. Duh.

    I mean when I was driven out of high school by discrimination, was that efficient? No, the public school failed in its duty to teach me, but still got my parents’ tax dollars, to add insult to injury. And at that same school i frequently witnessed conduct that was hard to explain without talking about racial animus. But those students were too poor to go anywhere else. So they were trapped with the choice between a school where they were very likely facing racial discrimination or dropping out of school. Our public school system is failing, and it is disproportionately non-whites who get the worst of it. AND YOU SUPPORT THAT. you oppose measures like vouchers and privatization, which would allow those students and their parents to choose a school that they think will treat them right.

    You would tell a poor black student facing discrimination that, hey, don’t worry, maybe he can convince the voters to fix the situation for him.

    And don’t say that racial discrimination is illegal. Lots of things are illegal. it was illegal for my school to discriminate against me even before the ADA, under the FRA. it didn’t stop them. and we all know there are times when you know discrimination is occurring but it just can’t be proven. the best, surest way, to protect those kids is to give them options.

    make it so the maxium “the customer is always right” applies.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  81. SPQR, do you know the story? There was a fellow who would do the following whenever he saw a car with that silly “Split Wood, Not Atoms” bumper sticker: screech to halt, open his glove compartment, and place the following bumper sticker over the first:

    “MORE NUKES. LESS KOOKS.”

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  82. Comment by Simon Jester — 3/18/2011 @ 9:11 am,

    You are right, of course. I know better.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  83. Still, Machinist, it always does me good to know that I am not alone in my thinking. So thanks for posting your thoughts, regardless.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  84. AW:

    They [private schools] don’t teach all or most of the children in the community because they are frozen out by the anti-competitive nature of the market.

    Uh… it really does have something to do with the fact that an overwhelming amount of any community simply cannot afford private schools.

    > To say nothing of the fact that most kids who attend private school are predisposed to do well in school because of their socio-economic background.I know lots of kids who go to private school, given that about half my family is catholic. The only thing unusual about their background is that they actually care about their kids education.

    My point exactly. I would think that trait is common among people whose kids are in private schools…. which explains (at least in part) why private schools produce better students.

    Our public school system is failing, and it is disproportionately non-whites who get the worst of it. AND YOU SUPPORT THAT. you oppose measures like vouchers and privatization, which would allow those students and their parents to choose a school that they think will treat them right.

    Kman (5576bf)

  85. AW:

    Sorry. Hit “Submit comment” prematurely.

    Our public school system is failing, and it is disproportionately non-whites who get the worst of it. AND YOU SUPPORT THAT. you oppose measures like vouchers and privatization, which would allow those students and their parents to choose a school that they think will treat them right.

    No, I’m saying that when you flood the private school system with everything and everyone from the public school system, you’re going to change the private school system and, in the end, you’ll just continue the same problems. So you haven’t solved anything, except to make the educational system further out of reach of citizen oversight.

    Kman (5576bf)

  86. Kman

    > Uh… it really does have something to do with the fact that an overwhelming amount of any community simply cannot afford private schools.

    Really? If we eliminated all taxes that go to schools, and let the parents keep the money, you don’t think the majority of them could scrape together enough to afford private school tuition.

    But of course there are some kids who can’t afford it, and guess what? Vouchers pulls the rug out from under that argument entirely.

    But really, there’s no point in arguing any more with you. You don’t admit when you are provably wrong. You won’t admit it, here either.

    Your fundamental belief, obviously, is that the entire problem with our schools is unmotivated students. You don’t believe that a lack of motivation among teachers is the problem. we’ll let everyone judge who realistic that is.

    But I have seen first hand how uncaring teachers can be. And one of the teachers who discriminated against me, won an award for supposedly being one of the best teachers in the state.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  87. And by the way, AW, don’t kid yourself: the incentive-based voucher program you advocate would cause private schools to skim high-achieving students for themselves, while expelling or counsel out poor performers.

    Think about it. You really think that vouchers would put an end to being “driven out of high school by discrimination”?

    Kman (5576bf)


  88. I’ve read bumper stickers in Boulder with more depth than Kman’s beliefs on education.

    Fixed it for ya, SPQR.

    Darth Venomous (a0b6a2)

  89. Actually, Aaron, there are two “problems” with Kman:

    1. His arguments all derive from what he wishes to be true, without looking at data. This has been proven, time and time again. He doesn’t look things up or think deeply, at all.

    2. Big government does good things. At least, when there is a “D” associated with it.

    I could add the third: that he is a creepy stalkerboi toward you personally, but then, most everyone knows that.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  90. Oh, and:

    “…Hit “Submit comment” prematurely….”

    Best Unintended Self-Indicting Humor EVAH! On several levels.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  91. Kman

    > And by the way, AW, don’t kid yourself: the incentive-based voucher program you advocate would cause private schools to skim high-achieving students for themselves, while expelling or counsel out poor performers.

    That is also something that happened at my PUBLIC SCHOOL, you idiot. and that was in your state, btw.

    But no, in fact, if the parents can pay they will find a seller. yes, some schools will try to become “elite schools” with elite students. so what of it it? Again, you know nothing about economics.

    Seriously, look at the university system. yes, they have Yales and Harvards. But they also have the University of Phoenix and Devry. if you are willing to pay, someone is wiling to sell.

    > You really think that vouchers would put an end to being “driven out of high school by discrimination”?

    Of course not. but it would improve things by giving those kids options. if a poor black kid faces discrimination now, they have no options. but if give them vouchers and they can say, “screw you, i am taking my business elsewhere.”

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  92. That is also something that happened at my PUBLIC SCHOOL, you idiot. and that was in your state, btw.

    Yes, I KNOW. That’s why I said it. Goes to my point that vouchers and privitization doesn’t change anything.

    (And it’s my adopted state, as you well know).

    if a poor black kid faces discrimination now, they have no options. but if give them vouchers and they can say, “screw you, i am taking my business elsewhere.”

    But take a typical non-urban county which (right now) accommodates, say, three public schools and one private school. Privitize it and give out vouchers. How much “elsewhere” can there be?

    Kman (5576bf)

  93. “But take a typical non-urban county which (right now) accommodates, say, three public schools and one private school. Privitize it and give out vouchers. How much “elsewhere” can there be?”

    It’s painfully obvious that you do not have any children.

    Parents will move heaven and earth to get their kids into a good school if they think they have a decent shot at it.

    EC (dda60e)

  94. Again, the Lefties really hate “Waiting for Superman,” but it is an important documentary, and I recommend the book.

    The wikipedia entry…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22

    …gives a flavor of the kind of uproar that this documentary has caused.

    I recommend that people dive in. We say we care about how our children are doing. Talk is cheap. Invest some time learning facts, and not just form people at thinktanks with a political orientation.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  95. As for Kman’s eventual response, I predict:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5wLfflmzHY

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  96. Kman

    > Goes to my point that vouchers and privitization doesn’t change anything.

    You keep acting as though if these parade of horrible happens EVER in a private school it proves it is just as bad.

    But what you keep missing is my point, which is that THEY WILL HAPPEN LESS. And when it happens IT WON’T BE AS MUCH OF A DISASTER BECAUSE THE STUDENT WILL HAVE MORE OPTIONS.

    > But take a typical non-urban county which (right now) accommodates, say, three public schools and one private school. Privitize it and give out vouchers. How much “elsewhere” can there be?

    In which you ignored the part where I talked about turning the current public schools into private schools.

    So in your scenario (which is fanciful, by the way), they will have four options instead of only one. But even two options, in your imagined scenario is better than one.

    EC

    > It’s painfully obvious that you [Kman] do not have any children.

    Well be kind. Kman has made certain… ahem… lifestyle choices that make him unlike[ly] to ever have children.

    [fixed after the fact.]

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  97. “Well be kind. Kman has made certain… ahem… lifestyle choices that make him unlike to ever have children.”

    Kman can always adopt.

    EC (dda60e)

  98. Aaron, to be fair, I know several gay people who have adopted children and are quite invested in making sure that those children get the best educational opportunities possibles.

    Of course, they do much more than just argue from their personal opinions; they go out and research and get involved. Because they have a stake in the outcome.

    The sad part is that we all ought to have a similar stake in the outcome.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  99. Kman has made certain… ahem… lifestyle choices that make him unlike to ever have children.

    I have indeed. Choices like loving and caring for a woman who survived ovarian cancer but who was left barren.

    You’re a real d*ckheaded f*ck, AW.

    Kman (5576bf)

  100. I was on my lunch break earlier and am catching up on missed replies:

    “The concept [competition] is great in business, where you have winners and losers. The problem is that we’re talking about education — where the whole idea is to avoid having “losers” at all.”

    Are you familiar with how scholarships work?

    EC (dda60e)

  101. “Well be kind. Kman has made certain… ahem… lifestyle choices that make him unlike[ly] to ever have children.”

    That crosses a line, Aaron. It is unproductive to the discussion and demeans you and this site. Wish you wouldn’t go there.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  102. Why, EC! I’m sure the goal is to have everyone perform above average!

    Isn’t our educational system grand, particularly in mathematics?

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  103. “Why, EC! I’m sure the goal is to have everyone perform above average!”

    I’m getting a ‘Harrison Bergeron’ vibe from Kman.

    EC (dda60e)

  104. Machinist, Aaron is joking that Kman is obsessed with him. I guess it’s a little off color, but it’s hardly gay bashing.

    Kman’s claim that Aaron was referring to his barren wife is simply a lie.

    Kman, have your actions made Aaron aware that you dress in women’s clothing in public? This is a straight question, not a joke or insult or attack. If so, that’s part of why he interprets your 9 year obsession with him, to include personal emails, to indicate your creepy obsession has a romantic aspect to it.

    I know from trying to argue with you that you can take the easy road (a short sighted, later disproven lie) to escape losing an argument, but the truth is that Aaron just thinks you’re a weirdo.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  105. machinest

    he never claimed to be married to a woman before. my joke was that he was gay.

    and bluntly, i give no credit to any thing he claims to be true that i can’t verify anyway. I’m not saying it is a lie, just that i treat everything he says as presumptively untrue. its not like he doesn’t tell brazen lies on a regular basis.

    And certainly it is hard to explain why he gets extra angry when i say anything against gay rights, if he is not personally affected by it.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  106. Also, Kman, if you’re not lying about your wife, I am sorry that happened to her. But I have no idea if you’re telling the truth about that because (understandably) I don’t trust you.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  107. Machinist is right that this is unproductive, Aaron.

    It’s amazing how you reply to practically anyone who comes along. The only bloggers I see doing that are the ones who are trying hard to attract a few readers. I wonder if you shouldn’t reply to Kman, since replying to him at all honestly requires one to point out his poor character sometimes.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  108. Dustin

    bluntly, kman is such a piece of sh-t that it wouldn’t shock me if he would just make it up.

    especially given that it is actually close to something that did happen to my wife. she lost an ovary to cancer and the other has some kind of issue, so she won’t have children. and kman knew all about when she was pregnant for a week and then miscarried.

    So color me skeptical. i think he is more likely than not trying to play “me too.” If he was married, don’t you think he would have mentioned it before?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  109. I posted my comment before seeing his. I knew what you were saying.

    regardless of his lifestyle your comment seems out of line. If he is out of line then put him in moderation. Didn’t Patterico recently ask commenters to avoid commenting on other commenter’s personal lives?

    When I read your story earlier I admired your frankness in sharing it and I thought this would probably bring the troll in, as indeed it did. I admired your willingness to share the story, obviously knowing that it would bring him around.

    You lose that credibility when you toss out such personal remarks when he has stayed on topic. That is regrettable.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  110. machinest

    you know, after nine years of his continuous bullsh*t, i am not going to be kind to him. and bluntly, you have to admit you are asking a bit much of me.

    i mean right now on the other thread he is opining on wisconsin law. it is clear he doesn’t know anything about it. but unlike me, where i admit that i don’t know the law, he plunges ahead pretending to know what he is talking about.

    how does that contribute to a discussion.

    And he has been doing this kind of thing with me FOR NINE YEARS.

    So i am sorry if i have zero patience with him. but i hope you can at least understand it.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  111. “it is clear he doesn’t know anything about it. but unlike me, where i admit that i don’t know the law, he plunges ahead pretending to know what he is talking about.”

    Kman is Cliff Claven?

    EC (dda60e)

  112. If he was married, don’t you think he would have mentioned it before?

    Your obsession with my personal life is more than creepy. I understand it — after all, ad hominem arguments often require a certain knowledge of the subject, even if it’s made up. But it’s still creepy, especially when you enter the realm of my personal life, about which you know even less than you do than the law.

    That said, I never claimed to be married. And that’s all I’m going to say the subject.

    And you’re still a feckless piece of sh*t.

    Kman (5576bf)

  113. regardless of his lifestyle your comment seems out of line.

    Just to be clear, Kman’s primary lifestyle trait is hounding Aaron for 9 years, not being homosexual. And it’s hard to separate his BS from thread to thread. That enables him to be extremely hostile and lie, and then act like a dispassionate, polite critic in the next thread.

    You’re right that it’s not productive, Machinist, but why do we have to wipe the slate clean just because this is a new thread? Bringing this closer to the topic, what if Shankman commented at Althouse’s blog and she called him a stalker even though he hadn’t said anything about it in that thread? Seems like we should carry a reputation from one thread to another, even from one blog to another.

    Kman deserves ridicule, but you are on the money when you say it’s not productive. No more than it would be for Aaron to seriously talk to the bastards who threaten him over his protest of the cartoon jihad, or for Althouse to seriously engage Shankman.

    How productive was Dan’s interview? It was entertaining, but it also shows that if you’re really nasty, major bloggers will help you spread your POV. For someone who is as clueless as Shankman, that’s a golden ticket.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  114. Just at how Kman moves from suggesting Aaron attacked Kman’s cancer sticken wife to now saying he doesn’t have a wife and Aaron is obsessively trying to follow Kman around, and is a ‘piece of sh*t’.

    No, Kman… you are the one sending personal emails to Aaron after you’re aware he wants you to leave him alone. You’re the one who dresses in women’s clothing in public (correct me if you’ve never done so).

    Dustin (c16eca)

  115. “Just at how Kman moves from suggesting Aaron attacked Kman’s cancer sticken wife”

    He just said “a woman”, not his wife.

    But whatever…

    EC (dda60e)

  116. Aaron,
    Kman destroys his own credibility to anyone that reads him for a while. You do nothing for yourself by destroying your own in sinking to his level. You can not match him at being a dick.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  117. Kman

    > Your obsession with

    Hahahahhaha. You stalk me for 9 years and you call me obsessed?

    > than you do than the law.

    Says the man who couldn’t tell a state constitution from a federal one. You have long since squandered away your right to ridicule my knowledge or skill in the legal profession.

    > That said, I never claimed to be married.

    I am sorry, that was the implication you made when you said you loved and cared for (something to that effect) a “barren” woman. By the way, what a curious choice of words. My wife will never have children, but I never would call her barren because it is such a hurtful way to put it.

    > And you’re still a feckless piece of sh*t.

    You don’t like me? THEN LEAVE. I have been asking you to leave me alone for 9 years.

    But you and i both know you are just playing the victim here. even if you are telling the truth–which i doubt–you know you never even mentioned it before.

    you have been stalking me, lying, citing sources that don’t support you, and just in general being a dishonest piece of sh*t for nine years. And you have the nerve to play upset because i made fun of you for your obsession?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  118. Dustin:

    Just at how Kman moves from suggesting Aaron attacked Kman’s cancer sticken wife to now saying he doesn’t have a wife

    I never mentioned I had a wife once.

    And the fact that you think I did is typical. You create your own reality, your own assumptions, spins, etc. And then when I don’t conform to them, *I* become the “liar”. Do you realize how pathetic that makes you?

    You’re the one who dresses in women’s clothing in public (correct me if you’ve never done so)

    In a play, you idiot. A play. I’ve been involved in theatre and film since I was a kid.

    But AW spins it to you a certain way, and you lap it up like a sycophantic puppy dog. I’d find it amusing if I wasn’t so embarrassed for you.

    Kman (5576bf)

  119. By the way, what a curious choice of words. My wife will never have children, but I never would call her barren because it is such a hurtful way to put it.

    Yeah, I noticed that too. That’s a good indication he’s lying. That and the fact he’s lied about everything else and appears to be obsessed with following a guy around.

    Kman, please go away. You say Aaron is horrible, and yet you’re spending at least 8 hours a day, sometimes far more, tracking his every word. You also hide your own blog from us. Everything about you screams bad faith.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  120. I would find Kman’s sycophantic defense of Obama so amusing if it weren’t so treasonous.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  121. But AW spins it to you a certain way, and you lap it up like a sycophantic puppy dog. I’d find it amusing if I wasn’t so embarrassed for you.

    Aaron hasn’t told me much about you. I’ve asked out of concern, because you do act psychotic sometimes. He refuses to out you, even in private, and did tell me that you were a talented actor, and praised for your ability to portray a woman as well as a man. I hesitate to mention that because I don’t want to be so specific you are outed, but I do think your own oft stated principles demand that you let me scrutinize your blog as a dissenting commenter. If you won’t, then you were lying about your principles behind stalking Aaron.

    I do not have hatred for gay men. If you were a woman stalking Aaron, I’d feel the same about you.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  122. dustin

    his bad faith screams bad faith. lol

    but i think what kman is saying is he lives with her and loves her, but they are not married.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  123. Kman sides with feisal abdul rauf so it is pretty itronic he would accuse AW of having anti-gay prejudices.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  124. You stalk me for 9 years and you call me obsessed?

    You can repeat that lie all you want, AW. Doesn’t effect me at all. I know better. So do you.

    I am sorry, that was the implication you made when you said you loved and cared for (something to that effect) a “barren” woman.

    Just the same, your propensity to make false assumptions and repeat them as “fact” is a shortfall or yours, not mine.

    I have been asking you to leave me alone for 9 years.

    Another lie.

    But you and i both know you are just playing the victim here. even if you are telling the truth–which i doubt–you know you never even mentioned it before.

    There is a LOT of things about me that I have never mentioned before. In fact, most of what you do know about my personal life (the true stuff, I mean), comes from your stalking of me — isn’t that right?

    It’s all very strange. No matter what the topic, you can’t HELP but make it about ME.

    Which is bad enough, but you can’t even be RIGHT about me.

    I wonder where that arrogance comes from — to think you know certain personal things about me, and to claim that I am lying about other personal things about me. It’s a sick kind of arrogance that really perplexes me.

    But in the long run, it shows the intellectual weakness of your positions. I mean, anyone whose stock reply is “Well, your a gay stalking bad lawyer doodyhead” ruins his own cred after a while.

    Kman (5576bf)

  125. Dustin,

    Lets not get personal with Kman, TAKR the high road, its not you to go to his level

    EricPWJohnson (477908)

  126. “…It’s all very strange. No matter what the topic, you can’t HELP but make it about ME….”

    Again, folks, keep track: how often does stalkerboi post on a thread that is not originated by Aaron?

    But nooooooo. He’s not an obsessive stalker. Not at all.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  127. Oh now Kman is accusing Aaron of ruining his own cred.Quelle Ironie.[French for how ironic.] Aaaaaah never mind Kman never had any cred.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  128. Just the same, your propensity to make false assumptions and repeat them as “fact” is a shortfall or yours, not mine.

    Uh, no.

    You certainly suggested that Aaron’s comment that you couldn’t have kids was a reference to this extremely sad story about your wife. This is not some false assumption, as Aaron already noted you’re never honest.

    It’s pretty sick, since this mirrors a sad story that you learned when stalking Aaron for the past 9 years.

    BTW, when you keep following someone around after they ask you to leave them alone, that is creepy.

    You never demonstrate Aaron is wrong.

    You always act angry with him at the drop of a hat, calling him a piece of sh*t.

    You lie when you summarize any law or article or situation.

    All you’re doing is asserting, repeatedly, the opposite of Aaron’s POV. You admitted to me you’ve been doing it for nearly a decade. If you get really embarrassed, you’ll disappear for a few hours, and even that is very noticeable. That’s how bad you are about this.

    You said you believed we must welcome dissenting voices and scrutinize views we do not agree with. What is the URL to your blog? The only reason you refuse to tell me is because you are extremely embarrassed by your behavior. So stop.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  129. Kman

    > No matter what the topic, you can’t HELP but make it about ME.

    because you are a dishonest little trolling stalker sh*t who is known to shoot his mouth off WITHOUT EVEN READING THE POST. You act in a completely unethical manner on these boards and then you expect me to be neutral about your sh*tty personality? we aren’t supposed to notice after a while that we are safer assuming everything you say is a lie? and everyone here has noticed.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  130. Lets not get personal with Kman, TAKE the high road, its not you to go to his level

    Comment by EricPWJohnson

    That’s reasonable. My argument against Kman is often personal, because I do not care that he’s disputing blog posts. I care that the way he does so is disturbing and ridiculous.

    I do not think I am at his level, but I would like to be a dissenting opinion on his blog. Not more than a comment or two a week, but I think it’s a fair request that he open himself up to scrutiny, given his obsession here.

    That said, let me say again, I do not have a problem with gay people, and if Kman’s version of Aaron’s story is true, I’m sorry he experienced that (and of course, I’m also very sorry for Aaron’s experience, and also sorry Kman seems to rub things like that in Aaron’s face).

    Try as I might, I cannot resist responding to cranks on the internet.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  131. and everyone here has noticed.

    If everyone here had noticed how “completely unehtical” I have been on these boards, then why do you feel the need to turn the comment thread into the subject of *me*? Why the big anti-Kman campaign?

    If I’m truly that bad and “everyone knows it”, then why don’t you and others who feel like you simply ignore me? I’ll say my piece, and leave to the more open-minded readers (who care about the weight of an argument and not the ad hominem attacks) to consider what I say.

    Or could it be that you really truly just want an echo chamber?

    Kman (5576bf)

  132. Oh, c’mon, you odd little troll. You take reflexively oppositional positions to what one person writes…and yet you have the nerve to call this place an “echo chamber”?

    As Jerry Seinfeld says: “Really?”

    And I think you know that the majority of posters here don’t consider your actions as draped in glory and honesty.

    If you feel this way, why not get your own blog, and write there? Or is it easier to be a reflexive dissenter?

    I think you know the answer to that question.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  133. Kman, your argument includes “you are a piece of sh*t”. No one is considering what you have to say.

    The reason so many people respond is because when they don’t, you ramp up the hostility and drama until you’re screaming that someone has oppressed you and is slurring your dear wife you don’t have.

    What is the URL to your blog? Let your commenters there weigh my arguments. My understanding is that you tell them lies, and the reason you don’t want anyone here commenting there is because it is actually very easy to prove you knew you were lying.

    Let them consider what I say. You just said that’s worthwhile in your case… why are you better than me?

    Dustin (c16eca)

  134. Kman

    > Why the big anti-Kman campaign?

    Because you don’t stop. after getting continually beaten in just about every fight, after being continually shown to misrepresent your citations, after catching you lying, arguing horrific things just to be contrarian, FOR NINE F-CKING YEARS you still do it.

    Go away asshole. Go to a new blog, pick a new nickname and learn to debate honestly and ethically.

    you would never dare behave like this in court. you would be sanctioned for it. but you have no problem acting this way here.

    > Or could it be that you really truly just want an echo chamber?

    see, PERFECT EXAMPLE of your dishonesty. there are other liberals on this site AND YOU KNOW IT. we don’t have a problem with liberals generally, JUST YOU.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  135. Why not ban the little twerp?

    I like this place for the often intelligent and thoughtful comments. If want to read crazy, I can always go to LGF.

    RickZ (882387)

  136. Dustin,

    He lied, hands down

    If Aaron said they were sun worshippers Kmans wife would be suffering from Melanoma or a melanoma survivor

    EricPWJohnson (477908)

  137. rickz

    not my call, sadly. because i would just for being a stalker.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  138. But enough jackin the thread, Kman is Kman – just dont respond to him

    EricPWJohnson (477908)

  139. AW, you think Patrick would have an objection?

    RickZ (882387)

  140. we don’t have a problem with liberals generally, JUST YOU.

    No, you have problems with liberals generally. Not just me. Liberal comments get shot down with childish name-calling, etc. Get real.

    And that’s fine. You gotta expect that on the Internet.

    I just don’t understand why you (and by you, I mean YOU, Aaron) can’t rise above it. I don’t know why you end up being reduced to a wordier version of the “liar liar pants on fire” type of blogger. In the long run, it doesn’t make me look bad, although I know you think it does.

    Kman (5576bf)

  141. So getting back on topic…

    Kman, what’s your answer to post #98?

    EC (dda60e)

  142. rick

    so far he has prevented me from blocking him. patrick doesn’t like to block people very often.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  143. EC

    seriously he won’t admit he is wrong when he is provably wrong.

    so forget getting him to admit you are right if the point has any debatability at all. even if what he is saying defies the laws of economic gravity.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  144. Aaron,

    If Kman wants to be taken seriously, he’s going to have to defend his answers. I, like everyone else, would love to hear his answer to my question.

    EC (dda60e)

  145. EC:

    Sorry, EC. Trying to pick up the thread of this thread….

    I take it you want me to answer: “Are you familiar with how scholarships work?”

    The answer is “yes”. Although, I don’t understand what the relevancy.

    Kman (5576bf)

  146. EC, you are not holding your breath in the meantime I hope.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  147. “I take it you want me to answer: “Are you familiar with how scholarships work?”

    The answer is “yes”. Although, I don’t understand what the relevancy.”

    My question about scholarships was in reply to your statement about how education is too important to be subjected to competition, because you didn’t want there to be “winners” and “losers”. How do you think a scholarship works? Aren’t there winners and losers too?

    EC (dda60e)

  148. Kman – So are you confirming that you do not cross dress outside of public theatrical performances?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  149. Kman A.K.A Paul Krugman cross dresses as Sister Helen Thomas on fridays from 6:20 AM till 6:35 PM.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  150. So are you confirming that you do not cross dress outside of public theatrical performances?

    Comment by daleyrocks

    One reason I mentioned that is that Kman is mentally disturbed and acts as though he is desperate for attention. Everything I’ve ever learned about him shows he is desperate for attention. Making up this story about his wife, then slinking away from it, cross dressing for performance art, and saying absurd thing, one after another, to Aaron’s audience, for almost a decade.

    He’s disturbed.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  151. HEY!!!This is not a comment about Kman or by Kman, so read it please!

    Education is as important as national defense, as “our form of government is wholly inadequate for a society not composed of people of virtue” (or something like that).

    The problem is the education system turns out people that can’t tell a red herring from a codfish, as illustrated here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-g-QRogcN0

    (The really good stuff starts at about 2:59)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  152. Poor Ms. Althouse thinks there is a right not to be publicly be ridiculed for being a reactionary hack. She seems to agree with the Sarah Palin interpretation of the first amendment. Pretty appalling from someone who teaches constitutional law at a first tier state university.

    I mean how the hell are they going to picking baseball up out of their yard?

    Aaron, your erosion of the word “threat” is really terrible. The guy doesn’t like her and threatens to mock her publicly for her public comments and that’s a “threat.” Is a fainting couch standard issue for y’all now or do you have to go buy one after you become a right winger?

    timb (449046)

  153. timb, you are a liar. Ann Althouse thinks there is a right not to be subject to threats of violence and intimidation.

    Lying left-wingers like you disagree which is pretty appalling. But not surprising.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  154. 150.Poor Ms. Althouse thinks there is a right not to be publicly be ridiculed for being a reactionary hack

    So, timb, you won’t mind if we publish your home address and threaten to harass and intimidate you everywhere you go?

    Some chump (4c6c0c)

  155. timb, he didn’t merely threaten to mock her. Do not lie.

    He threatened to F— her up, put things in her food, go into her property, and run her out of her town, and even then I’m really being generous.

    If you think the promises in his threat are protected by the first amendment you are an idiot. If you think they are acceptable, then you are a totalitarian.

    You’re the one who opposes freedom of speech. Althouse’s.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  156. timb-

    baseballs can hurt, and entire blog wars can happen over talk of getting hit by a baseball, they can also go through windows

    besides, you should be looking at the YouTube link.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  157. The thing that ticks off both the left and right about Althouse is that she’s provacative and some of her arguments appear influential with moderates.

    And while I do not find this episode to make Althouse more authoritative, by the logic of a lot of other people, Althouse’s influence is going to grow tremendously. She is angering monsters who hate being exposed by her mere video of their behavior. That’s very compelling, to a lot of folks.

    And if she or her husband do not win a Pulitzer, then it’s an indictment on Columbia University. Of course… what else is new.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  158. Did someone really deny that this was a threat? really?

    JD (318f81)

  159. timb

    let’s not lose sight of this deception:

    > a reactionary hack.

    all she did was pick up the camera and point it at them and ask a few normal questions. they made themselves look like idiots.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  160. JD, timb would claim that the sun rose in the West if he thought it would discredit a Republican. Lies, seething hatred and name calling is all he trades in.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  161. Timb let’s see if your as forgiving if someone threatens Hu Jintao or the jerkoffs at No Penis Required.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  162. It looks as if he changed his Facebook identity again.

    Last night he was Jim Shankman.
    This morning he was Karl Asoah.
    This afternoon he is Ed Ward.
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=651447561

    aunursa (a2a019)

  163. Lots of things are wrong in education. The lack of focus on education is the most important part of the problem.

    Absolutely. The public school today is no longer just about learning the three R’s but has evolved into a full-blown social institution with an ever increasing demand on teachers to assume more of a parenting role. It’s the result of a unhealthy symbiotic relationship: the state wants our kids to fairly indoctrinate in some areas and parents are willing to forego their responsibilities and freely give them over with little thought given to what is taking place.

    Another issue that stymies the education process is the enormous amount of time and money spent on teaching non-English speaking children. Not only is it hurting states financially, it is also taking away time from English speaking children and therefore cutting down their learning time.

    While the superb ‘Waiting for Superman’ makes a strong and compelling statement about public education, it is a telling tragedy that such a film is even necessary to make.

    Dana (9f3823)

  164. About to do some comment surgery. It may leave the thread looking a shambles, with comments responding to no longer existing comments. I don’t really care.

    Machinist, I completely agree with your observations that commenters should not get personal. However — and this is not your fault — but you are unaware that Kman was personal and off topic from the beginning. At lunch I put the following comment from Kman in moderation:

    I’m not trying to make myself out to be courageous or anything.

    *Cough*. Then why are you bringing it up?

    We knew at the time that the party of the Teamsters were just blowing smoke when they pretended to be committed to civility

    Composition fallacy, as well as
    Hasty Generalization fallacy.

    That was his first comment out of the gate and it was an insult. I should have noted that I was removing the comment but I got distracted by other things.

    I think Aaron also needs to not personally insult Kman IF Kman is making arguments — however dishonest or silly they might seem to Aaron. BUT if Kman insults Aaron his comments should disappear. As I’m about to make a whole bunch more comments do.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  165. Bah. There are too many and I have other things to do. Just please stop.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  166. Patrick

    That’s fine. Nine years is a long time to put up with someone’s crud and i hope you understand the emotion behind me blowing up at him if not justifying it.

    Checks and balances are a good idea for government, and here, too. I apologize to you for making that necessary.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  167. I hope someone enjoyed Steve Taylor.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  168. Ann Althouse is smart and pretty and a lot of times she makes more better and more persuasiver conservative arguments than actual conservatives.

    I admire that about her.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  169. Dana, you should hear the uproar on campuses about “Waiting for Superman.” I thought that, just maybe, what parents thought of it was more fundamental. Silly me.

    There is a book describing the documentary that is well worth anyone’s time.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  170. Mr. Feet:

    Like the proverbial honeybadger, Ann Althouse just doesn’t care. She says what she thinks, politely, and if people are rude in response, why, that is on them.

    I admire that above all.

    Simon Jester (ea2bef)

  171. honey badgers are very America not Barack Obama’s America the real one

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  172. #157 Do you really think Althouse/Meade have any chance of winning a Pulitzer? Investigative journalism that detracts from the leftwing feel-good BS? I mean, does anything not advancing the progressive agenda ever win awards? Ditto for the Nobel committee. One might think GW Bush did far more to free millions of people from dictatorships that the idiot current POTUS who was selected in anticipation of greatness?
    #162 So the doofus is in a relationship with another man who has ties to ACORN? His literati mommy didn’t do such a good job raising him to be a good citizen.

    Calypso Louie Farrakhan (798aba)

  173. If you’re analogy-impaired, please stay out of the conversation.
    Comment by Kman — 3/18/2011 @ 7:50 am

    — Thus spake the king of the apples-to-cumquats comparison.

    Icy Texan (cec02e)

  174. Via Jim Treacher, add James O’Keefe to the list of people threatened.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  175. I don’t care if people want to threaten Republicans. I don’t care if people want to threaten Democrats.

    But please to not threaten Ann Althouse that’s not cool.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  176. “Why not ban the little twerp?”

    I don’t post much, but come here a lot, because I appreciate the blogging and the comments. As a non-lawyer, the legal insight is valuable, as are the different POV’s, usually pretty civil.

    This party hijacks so many threads, making them difficult and tedious to follow, that it really hurts your site. Can understand not wanting to ban people, but this is like having a major invasion of ants in your house and letting it continue.

    My 2 cents. I’ll keep coming here, really like the work you do.

    jodetoad (7720fb)


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