Patterico's Pontifications

1/8/2011

An “I am Spartacus” Christmas: Muslims Stand with Coptic Christians In Egypt

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 2:26 pm

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]

EricPWJohnson told me this was going to happen a two days ago and it went off as promised, a real palate cleanser after the sad news of today.  Recently the Coptic Christians of Egypt have come under terror attack for nothing more than practicing their religion.  But many good Muslims of the region have stepped up in the best way possible to address this threat:

Egypt’s Muslims attend Coptic Christmas mass, serving as “human shields”

Egypt’s majority Muslim population stuck to its word Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community, was honoured, when thousands of Muslims showed up at Coptic Christmas eve mass services in churches around the country and at candle light vigils held outside.

(Apparently the Coptics celebrate their Christmas on a different date.)

From the well-known to the unknown, Muslims had offered their bodies as “human shields” for last night’s mass, making a pledge to collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants and towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.

“We either live together, or we die together,” was the sloganeering genius of Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon whose cultural centre distributed flyers at churches in Cairo Thursday night, and who has been credited with first floating the “human shield” idea.

As they say, read the whole thing.  It is really uplifting stuff.

As almost everyone here knows, when terrorists threatened the creators of South Park, I was a participant in the Everyone Draw Mohammed protest.  From early on, a popular metaphor for this protest was this key scene in the movie Spartacus:

As Bagoh20 wrote toward the beginning:

“I am Spart[a]cus” is the perfect analogy to what this is. The South Park guys are the real one[s] being threatened and the only response that will defeat that is if millions stand up and say: [“]You will not confiscate our pens.”

So I salute every single person who has put their lives on the line to protect freedom of speech and religion.  That includes the over 700 people who drew cartoons at the site I created, the 100K+ people who participated at facebook before being shut down by a jihadist hacker, and those Muslims who sat with their Coptic brothers and sisters this Christmas.  Those Muslims are Good Samaritans in the truest sense.

Of course it is fair to note that the Everyone Draw Mohamed protest had the effect of offending many good Muslims, especially because those cartoons were often insulting beyond a mere depiction of Mohammed (pedophilia be upon him).  I acknowledged as much right at the beginning of the controversy:

But Ann Althouse, and James Taranto (who gives a nice backgrounder) reply (in paraphrase), “but you will offend moderate Muslims.”  Indeed we will and I want to be very clear.  If I could think of any other way to do this, I would do it.  I berated Althouse on her blog over and over, “what is the alternative?”  No one has offered anything.

But they are correct that there is a cost to this approach.  We will be posting messages that are dang near guaranteed to offend good Muslims who both respect their Prophet and the First Amendment.  To them I say your sensibilities are collateral damage in the fight for freedom.  To them I say it is a necessary evil.

I would have preferred to see our Federal Government show a more vigorous response to this, or just to see a stronger mainstream media response.  Imagine if during the Danish cartoon controversy every paper in the U.S. decided to reprint the cartoons or simply to create their own.  Instead, we were treated to pathetic display of Cnn showing pieces of paper showing the Mohammed cartoons, with Mohammed blurred out, reducing them to blurry piece of paper.  And Comedy Central not only censored images of Mohammed, but even a speech talking about the need to be courageous, while announcing that they would “courageously” mock Jesus Christ in a weekly TV show. Regular people, Glenn Reynolds’ Army of Davids, stepped up because no one else was doing it.  As I said over and over again, if someone had a better idea, I would welcome it.

But still this story should be filed away and recalled when someone says that all Muslims are bad or intolerant.  Muslims are capable of being positively heroic in defense of freedom, as this story attests.  And that is cause for optimism as we struggle against our common enemy in the terrorist movement.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

110 Responses to “An “I am Spartacus” Christmas: Muslims Stand with Coptic Christians In Egypt”

  1. As long as the first response by the Muslim community to a perceived slight, insult, alleged blasphemy, is to wreck violence upon the slighter, insulter, blasphemer, and they try to purge competing religions from the public-square through the same violence, Islam will be perceived as an evil in the world not to be tolerated.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  2. (Apparently the Coptics celebrate their Christmas on a different date.)

    Explanation here. Glossing over a few details, the Copts have their own calendar, which among other things has a leap year every 4 years without exception. By now, their calendar has shifted 13 days compared to the calendar the rest of the (non-Muslim) world uses. So they celebrate Christ’s birth on (the equivalent of) December 25th in their calendar, which is January 7th on our calendar.

    Confused yet? I am.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  3. *sigh*

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  4. Makes me sad. I just had a falling out with a Muslim lover. She’s a good person on her own, but repeatedly asks me to respect her religion.

    My answers to that are pretty strenuously, “No,” with reasons for it, and some profanity. I point out that not only is her prophet a mass-murdering, torturing pedophile who, according to her branch of Islam’s most trusted Hadith, ordered his men to burn a fire on a man’s chest, then “married” his wife and slept with her 3 days later … that she had expressed fear to me that her family would kill her if they knew the details of us … and that that is the lovely religion she is defending.

    That caused strain in our friendship. Fortunately, strain doesn’t erase attraction, but it still gets in the way of the really important things in life, such as mating.

    I’m glad these Muslims were the decent, which is to say, less-observant, sort. Kudos to them and I hope they can free themselves (both their minds and bodies) from Islam’s influence sooner than later.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  5. How does the Coptic Calendar compare to the Julian and Gregorian Calendars?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  6. It marches in step with the Julian calendar (they didn’t drop 10 days in 1582 and observe leap years every 4 years without exception), but they have 12 months of exactly 30 days each, plus a “short month” of 5 days, or 6 days in leap years. They also have their own names for the months and don’t use January, February, etc.

    As for how the Coptic calendar relates to the Gregorian calendar, it’s currently 13 days behind the Gregorian and will be 14 days behind starting in 2100, when the Copts observe a leap year that the rest of the world does not. And so on for each new century except those divisible by 400, when their leap year matches the rest of the world’s and thus the calendar won’t shift for that century.

    Robin Munn (daae49)

  7. Whatever merits “Everyone Draw Mohammed Day” had or lacked, I frankly don’t see any connection between it and these attacks on Egyptian Coptic Christians.

    If you’re suggesting that there’s a moral equivalence between drawing deliberately offensive cartoons and volunteering to be a human shield for Egyptian Coptic Christians, I don’t think that’s a persuasive argument.

    Beldar (ff4f38)

  8. Beldar

    let’s see here. a threat to freedom of religion and speech. and people deliberately exposing themselves to the same danger. aside from that, no similarity at all.

    I will grant you the danger is more acute in egypt. of course alot of the the people who drew those cartoons were in the middle east, so i guess you could say those people were exactly like them.

    Btw, at least one person i recalled who made a cartoon was muslim.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  9. Beldar,

    Apparently Aaron is struggling with that, I sent him the link in good faith, his argument that people risking their lives and those of their relatives so christias can be free of violence and then starts with the smearing again

    There is no Moral equivalence

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  10. Aaron,

    Again, please explain why smearig a religious faith is a expression of your freedom?

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  11. Again, please explain why smearig a religious faith is a expression of your freedom?

    Comment by EricPWJohnson

    why “again”?

    This has already been explained to you several times. I explained it too. You’re burning a straw man.

    It’s no smear of a faith to not respect someone the faithful revere, anyway. It’s not smearing Christians to say Jesus wasn’t the son of God. It’s not smearing Jews to say bacon is tasty.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  12. eric

    What does freedom of expression have to do with expressing yourself freely?

    You silly man.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  13. Dustin,

    I hear you but the question was directed at Aaron, and yes Bacon is tasty

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  14. Aaron,

    Again why did you feel the need to smear all muslims again?

    Why?

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  15. Aggressively silly, AW. He has always been, and will always be.

    JD (ad76b9)

  16. Drawing a picture of Mohammed is smearing all Muslims? You are a tool.

    JD (ad76b9)

  17. Come on, EPWJ. Let’s all eat bacon and delight in anything that offends those who would kill Aaron for freedom of expression. That’s the point.

    Yes, South Park style humor offends good people sometimes. So what?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  18. BTW, I make pizza from scratch. I had no pepperoni or mushrooms, so I used bacon last night. It works extremely well.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  19. Doo not offend me or I will lop off somebody’s head.

    JD (ad76b9)

  20. Calling him a pedophile in a public thread i a thread supposed to give muslims praise but ended in more smears

    JD – thats how I read it

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  21. This story is told in Ritch Shydner and Mark Schiff’s “I Killed!”, by comedian Steven Alan Green…

    The late Eric Douglas – Kirk’s son – is onstage on Jongleurs, London’s biggest comedy club, a place where office parties and hen nights go.

    Eric’s telling jokes, but not getting laughs. He’s pacing and starting to sweat. Finally, some bloke in the crowd yells out, “Come on, mate, tell us a joke!” Douglas fires back with some aggressive put-down. Others join in, chanting, “Tell us a joke!” Forced back on his hind legs, Douglas gets very aggressive, “Do you know who I am?! DO YOU KNOW WWHO I AM?!”

    “No, who are you?” shouts a heckler, in an uninterested tone.

    Douglas snaps back, “I’m Kirk Douglas’s son! I’m Kirk Douglas’s son! THAT’S who I am!”

    Suddenly a lone bloke in the back row stands up and says very solemnly, “I’m Kirk Douglas’s son.”

    Then another audience member stands up, puts his hand over his heart, and says, “I’m Kirk Douglas’s son!”

    Soon, hundreds of audience members all stand up, hands on hearts, solemnly repeating, “I’m Kirk Douglas’s son!”

    TimesDisliker (f91f17)

  22. Was he a pedophile? Noting that Mohammed buggered Aisha is smearing all Muslims?

    JD (ad76b9)

  23. Eric

    > Again why did you feel the need to smear all muslims again?

    What smear? In fact the post specifically says some muslims are capable of being absolutely heroic in defense of freedom.

    Oh, wait, maybe this clears it up:

    > Calling him a pedophile in a public thread i a thread supposed to give muslims praise but ended in more smears

    Except that not all Muslims are Mohammed. I don’t impugn his actions to their beliefs. Indeed, I have seen evidence that most Muslims don’t even know about that.

    And typically a “smear” is something that is an unfair or untrue statement. What is unfair or untrue about noting that a man who had sex with a 9 year old girl is a pedophile?

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  24. btw, eric, here is a guy defending mohammed from the charge… by claiming there is nothing wrong with screwing a 9 year old girl.

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  25. “Again, please explain why smearig a religious faith is a expression of your freedom?”

    The question answers itself.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  26. By the way, I object to Judaism and its successor, Christianity, for pretty nearly the exact same moral reasons I object to Islam.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  27. “btw, eric, here is a guy defending mohammed from the charge… by claiming there is nothing wrong with screwing a 9 year old girl.”

    I had a really weird situation in that I know a woman online from Iran. She’s lovely, a post-grad student, happily married to a very warm and loving and pro-Western specialist doctor. I’ve communicated with her for a couple years, and we’ve always had pleasant conversations.

    She’s a supporter of the Green movement and wants to get emigrate from Iran. I totally admire her. She is truly one of the good Muslims, as is her husband, and most of their friends.

    She must trust me, because she asked me if I want to chat with her 9 year old daughter, and I said sure.

    So I did, and it was sweet, and to make a long story short, she added me to her list, her mother said it was okay (she wants her daughter to practice English, presumably so they can emmigrate and her daughter can have a good life overseas, and even asked me if I want to work for her in Iran as a paid English teacher), and I now semi-routinely chat with a 9 year old girl (well, she’s now 10) who is very bright and wants to be a scientist.

    I love science, and it’s entertaining having intelligent conversations with someone so young. Our conversations are entirely innocent, of course.

    But it occurred to me … she is legally old enough to get married in Iran. How messed up is that?

    Yes, I am fan of Islam, but I can like individual Muslims (and Christians and Jews) just fine. However, what I can’t do is lie to them and tell them I think their religion is a good thing, when I don’t believe that at all.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  28. Aaron,

    Again, why do you feel the need to smear muslims?

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  29. Eric,

    mohammed = all muslims?

    is that your position?

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  30. “btw, eric, here is a guy defending mohammed from the charge… by claiming there is nothing wrong with screwing a 9 year old girl.”

    True, but neither Christians nor Jews are on strong ground when it comes to such behaviour. Consider Moses, the Israeli solders, and the female virgins of the Medianites (among many other examples).

    And presumably, the female virgins of the Medianites got off a heck of a lot easier than the male virgins (boys) did.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  31. eric will take any position handy, especially when his last one has been drawn & quartered.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  32. Aaron,

    Again, why did you feel the need in a feel good story to take the opportunity, to smear all muslims?

    Its a rather very simple question, but you do seem to be dodging it.

    Why?

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  33. Hey eric,

    When did you stop beating your wife?

    Don’t dodge the question by saying you never started, mind you…

    Of course I am being facetious, but to make a point. I don’t accept the premise of your question. I have not smeared all muslims. i have insulted mohammed, accurately.

    As for why, for the same reason i participated in everyone draw mohammed day, to continually draw the anger of the nutjobs toward me, and away from everyone else, to force the nutjobs to understand that nothing they do will stop this, so they might as well get used to it.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  34. I see Eric is back to his old tactic of falsely pretending to ask unanswered questions. A tactic that was old and worn out last year.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. It’s the voices, again.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3ff3b3)

  36. EPWJ, the ‘prophet’ was a pedophile. That’s at least as accurate as any other claim about him.

    So what’s up with your condemning someone telling the truth? What justifies you enforcing a blasphemy rule against Aaron?

    Your question doesn’t make much sense. It’s twisting away from what really happened. You say Aaron’s dodging when all he does is return to a discussion of the truthful action he took. You want to replace his mockery of one person with some kind of religious intolerance strawman.

    You repeatedly say ‘why?’ as though you haven’t already received a complete explanation for Aaron’s behavior. Maybe you don’t agree with it… a lot of people don’t. but it’s really, really unfair to pretend Aaron is avoiding his actions, or a discussion of it. He’s gone well out of his way to discuss what he’s up to. Do not avoid a direct analysis of his cartoon effort in order to attack him for something he obviously isn’t doing.

    That’s a bare minimum requirement to have a discussion. The way you’re handling this is just going to burn bridges. Remember how pissed off I got when you quoted my comment on the Texas Governor’s race, demanded I clarify if I supported Rick Perry, and then asked “why aren’t you answering me?” dozens of times? It got so old that I started posting a link to proof you had actually scrubbed my quote of my support for Perry.

    It’s totally unhelpful. Whatever end you have in mind is not served… especially if that end is thoughtful criticism of Aaron’s cartoons.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  37. Dustin

    > of Aaron’s cartoons.

    For the record, i only authored one. if you look at my cartoon, you really it would be cruel and unusual punishment to inflict more than one on the world–not because it was blasphemous, but because i suck at art.

    but more seriously, i just want to highlight that i literally couldn’t do what i did without alot of help, so it wasn’t all mine, even on the site i ran. and of course there were alot more at facebook, making my site look like a piker by comparison.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  38. That’s right, Aaron. Sorry for my lack of precision. It was an important statement on ‘if you’re going to try to kill anyone who says that, then I say it too. We’re not afraid’.

    It never seemed like a complicated concept to me, but an awful lot of people ignore the value of that statement in order to pretend it was a worthless insult to Islam.

    Yeah, it was blasphemous to a particular (wrong) version of Islam. No one should care.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  39. Dustin

    Well, to be fair, many of the comics were probably blasphemous to every version of islam. I mean i was tempted to start a category for people who drew mohammed as a giant shlong. And calling mohammed a pedo is insulting, even if we say truth is a defense.

    But many muslims said throughout the controversy that the rule against merely depicting mohammed only applied to muslims. this was very much like the judeo christian notion of idol worship. So this was imposing the dictates of their faith on us, which most muslims seemed to be opposed to.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  40. And calling mohammed a pedo is insulting, even if we say truth is a defense.

    This is an excellent point, and I want to draw attention to it. As yesterday’s show of support clearly demonstrated, there are plenty of Muslims in the world who oppose the radicals’ position. (If every Muslim supported them, the world would be a bloodbath right now). We don’t want to yield an inch to the radicals’ demands that we submit to them, but we also don’t want to push the moderates away. And one surefire way to push someone away is to insult a person or a cause they hold near & dear to their heart.

    Think “hearts and minds campaign,” and you’ll have the general idea. We’re in this for the long haul; we shouldn’t be doing things that might give short-term satisfaction (of the schadenfreude kind, usually) but that will cost us in the long run in hearts & minds not won over to our side. Needlessly insulting a figure that moderate Muslims venerate is one of those things.

    Robin Munn (cd9337)

  41. Robin

    if pointing out the truth about their profit means that suddenly they won’t support freedom of conscience, then they really weren’t our friends in the first place. And if the choice is between standing firm with those who are being threatened with murder, and hoping to win some kind of ephemeral hearts and minds, its not a hard choice for me.

    You are saying, after the Federal Government, and the mainstream media has left brave people going all the way back to Salman Rushdie flapping in the wind, having the endure these threats alone and with little support, that the moral thing to do is to continue that, lest we offend a few people and make them suddenly hate freedom. Well, I don’t find that very persuasive.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  42. I have no interest in EricPW’s adoption of the progressive position that the truth constitutes a smear. Liberals have already tried to impose too much political correctness on this country and protect everyone’s right to be offended except conservatives and Christians. I call BS.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  43. Thank you for this story, it is an encouraging thing to note.

    I would have liked it better, FWIW, without the reference to Everyone Draw Mohammed. I agree with Beldar, in one instance people are making a direct act of kindness in the interest of other people at the risk of their own life. In the other action, though it might have had to do with freedom of religion, it was not by itself an act of kindness toward anybody, that I can tell.

    Constitutional lawyer (3d3f72)

  44. Interesting, somebody called “Constitutional lawyer” just said what I was going to say.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  45. Aaron,

    Agai, why did you feel the need to smear all muslims in a feel good story – I see that you are still dodging the question

    Why did o a great story of people sacrificing everything for christians decide to smear them?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  46. Smearing great people doing great things? Why?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  47. Aaron,

    You misunderstand. I said “needlessly“, and I meant it. As for the rest of your post, I’m not suggesting we should do any of that. We should stand up for those like Rushdie who are being threatened by radicals. We should take a stand against murder threats. And we should encourage moderate Muslims to do the same. Please explain to me how insulting Mohammed helps defend Rushdie, or helps take a stand against murder threats… because it clearly doesn’t help encourage moderate Muslims to stand with us.

    And as for your point about “they really weren’t our friends in the first place,” well, if someone spat in your face, would you be inclined to help them out? As you yourself pointed out, calling Mohammed a pedophile is insulting, even if it’s true. So if you’re trying to win moderates over to our side, why go out of your way to push them away?

    The rest of your post seems to be a false dichotomy. If it’s truly a choice between standing firm with those who are being threated with murder vs. winning hearts and minds and we can’t do both, then of course it’s not a hard choice. But what I’m saying is, there’s no reason we can’t do both, as long as we avoid spitting in our would-be allies’ face. That’s just stupid diplomacy.

    There’s a time and place to point out Mohammed’s sexual history. Protesting the treatment of women in modern Islam would be one such place, for example. Trying to persuade moderate Muslims to protest the actions of their radicals would not be such a place.

    I could go on, but I’m already starting to repeat myself. I hope I’ve made my point clear enough.

    Robin Munn (cd9337)

  48. P.S. I love Firefox. This laptop has a tendency to overheat and cause programs to crash, and Firefox crashed while I was finishing the above comment. I thought I’d lost it all — but when I reloaded Firefox, not only were all my tabs still there, but my entire comment was still in the text-entry box, all the way up to the point where the crash had happened. I wish more software acted like that.

    Robin Munn (cd9337)

  49. Robin

    My point exactly – but you are giving Aaron credit perhaps where its not due – he has a problem with Islam that to me and some others is being neatly wrapped up in a justification of a few very violent individuals behavior.

    He won’t answer the question of why he feels the need to smear 1.2 billion people at every opportunity and it strikes to the credibility of the body of his work and also reflects very poorly on this blog, on me on everyone who frequents it, who does not confront him on his motivations.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  50. EPWJ reflects poorly on itself. Quit being a nozzle.

    JD (ad76b9)

  51. “There’s a time and place to point out Mohammed’s sexual history. Protesting the treatment of women in modern Islam would be one such place, for example”

    Robin – Pleas provide the appropriate date and location.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  52. Robin and EricPW – Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country. I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  53. Again, why did you feel the need in a feel good story to take the opportunity, to smear all muslims?

    He can’t help it.

    Actually, I suspect it’s this false sense of daring-do, as in….

    So I salute every single person who has put their lives on the line to protect freedom of speech and religion. That includes the over 700 people who drew cartoons at the site I created…

    Oh, good God.

    Kman (26c32e)

  54. I guess it would be too much to ask kmart and epwj to show an actual insult to all Muslims.

    JD (ad76b9)

  55. daley,

    The question is and will remain, why did Aaron use his position on this blog and with this good story to take the time to again smear 1.2 billion muslims deliberately.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  56. JD

    No the question still is why did Aaron use this opportunity to smear muslims –

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  57. Daleyrocks – it seems that epwj is going to do his standard repeat the same drivel over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

    JD (ad76b9)

  58. JD

    No, he just hasn’t answered yet

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  59. Why would he answer a dishonest question?

    JD (ad76b9)

  60. JD,

    Why would he smear people? Simple question

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  61. Eric

    > Agai[n], why did you feel the need to smear all muslims in a feel good story – I see that you are still dodging the question

    No, Eric, the only person smearing anyone is you.

    First, you are smearing all Muslims by imputing the behavior of one, Mohammed, to the whole. I have met Muslims who were utterly appalled to hear what their prophet had done. Of course they had not remained Muslims for long, but that is exactly why we need to be free to say these sorts of things. If you will not adhere to a religion if you know the truth about a prophet, why exactly should that truth be suppressed?

    Second, you are smearing me for pretending I dodged your question when I clearly have not.

    By the way, when did you stop beating your wife?

    Seriously, normally I respect your comments, but you have veered into troll territory, here.

    > he has a problem with Islam

    You are the one stereotyping Muslims, not me.

    Robin

    > I said “needlessly“, and I meant it.

    And I believed it was necessary, and I meant it.

    > We should stand up for those like Rushdie who are being threatened by radicals.

    Good, how exactly do you propose that we do so?

    > well, if someone spat in your face, would you be inclined to help them out?

    Spitting in a person’s face is a physical act. If you do it you can be charged with a crime and sued for battery. If this isn’t true in all 50 states, its true in almost all of them. By comparison our constitution positively protects your right to blaspheme a faith.

    > I love Firefox

    That is really cool. Nonetheless save often, as they say.

    Kman

    Well, there is a shock, that you join in the dishonesty. Which means of course once again you are the one stereotyping, stalker boy.

    I mean next you will call me racist, because apparently to you, Islam is a race.

    http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com/2010/07/another-liberal-accuses-others-of.html

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  62. Aaron,

    Again, why did you feel the need to smear all Muslims, okay I’m wrong you’re right on everything but then again, why did you feel the need to smear all muslims

    The parade of ficticious? people “that” you “know” isnt justifying why you decided to use this opportuity for yet another smear –

    I see you are creating arguments that the question isnt fair – that has nothing to do with what you wrote – there is no one here who read that as anything but a smear

    and that was clearly your intent – mine is why? Do we really need to drag up your earlier forays on this blog and your statements?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  63. Robin and EricPW – Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country. I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  64. AW – point and laugh. Mock and scorn.

    JD (ad76b9)

  65. I mean next you will call me racist, because apparently to you, Islam is a race

    No, I’ll be content to call you Captain ManBearPig.

    Thank you, Captain ManBearPig and the other Spartacans, for saving mankind. Your Medals of Valor are in the mail.

    Kman (26c32e)

  66. And EPWJ continues his lame sixth grade rhetorical trick.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. Eric

    > there is no one here who read that as anything but a smear

    The dishonesty of that statement speaks for itself.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  68. Daley,

    No, I’m just asking Aaron why he has a problem smearing muslims

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  69. Amusingly, EPWJ, you never answered my question many months ago as to why you formed an opinion about the content of a video of an incident when you knew you had not seen it.

    You never answered that one either.

    But then, we knew your little juvenile debate tactic was old by seventh grade.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  70. Aaron

    Again, as I am dishonest person, you must understand that you decided to smear muslims – I’m just asking why? others have also chimed in

    So why Aaron? Do we need to drag up your previous comments?

    You clearly made up things in your reply’s to me introduced “evidence” that somehow was your motivation and justification – that we ever ever heard before these “people” that “you” know

    Its an old blog tactic

    So why in a feel good story did you decide to choose to smear all muslims

    Feel free to write the embassy’s of the arab and muslim countrys and poise your statements to them and await their response – I think the answer will be the obvious one we all already know

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  71. there is no one here who read that as anything but a smear

    I did not read it as a smear. Nor did others that commented above.

    SPQR – why are you insulting and smearing 6th graders?

    JD (ad76b9)

  72. When are you going to advance to high school debating tactics, EPWJ? We all await your answer. When?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  73. SPQR

    Aaron wrote a smear on all muslims I’m just asking why and am enjoying his making up people coversations topics that he never covered before

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  74. No you are not, EPWJ. You are playing a juvenile game that you’ve played here for years.

    It got old a long time ago. Grow up.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  75. SPQR

    Just asking him why when muslims were risking everything – their ow lives for CHRISTIANS did he need to smear them at the same time as worshipers of a ped

    you can make this about me but he was the one who decided to do this

    plenty of other news out there

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  76. No, EPWJ, you are the one convinced of the brilliance of a sixth grade debating trick of repeating the same question over and over again.

    Grow up.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  77. SPQR

    The only game here is the smearing and why – thats it – sure I have flaws yada yada yada but why did he do it?

    Its interesting if you read his old comments before he was a blogger here just oe of us smoes – its the real Aaron not the cya we are seeing here

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  78. Breaking News – ANDREW BREITBART INDICTED !!!!!!

    JD (ad76b9)

  79. SPQR – how many times has the clown asked that same dishonest question?

    JD (ad76b9)

  80. Eric

    The only smear is coming from you.

    Let’s break this down.

    > he need to smear them at the same time as worshipers of a ped

    First, I don’t think they would say they worship Mohammed. I think they would say they follow him. They only worship Allah. But that is a quibble.

    Second are you denying that Mohammed was a pedophile? Are you denying that he had sex with a nine year old girl? Or are you denying that this is pedophilic?

    I have shown you evidence that he was, and indeed no Muslim I have ever talked to has even denied it. they just claim that hey, it was a different time, and how dare we judge him by modern standards. Which is a funny thing to say given that their faith was supposed to contain eternal rules of right and wrong? But there you go.

    But you keep insisting it is a smear. since you do not rebut the truth of it, i can presume it is because you CAN’T REBUT IT. So the claim that i have smeared them is in fact a smear.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  81. “No, I’m just asking Aaron why he has a problem smearing muslims”

    EricPW – I am asking you a separate question which you are dodging for some reason.

    Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country? I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    Why do you feel that we need to treat adherents of Islam with kid gloves when we do not necessarily feel the same way about adherents of other religions? Is it due to the tendency of some members of Islam to react violently when offended or threaten violence when offended? In this country we have an expression that the cure for bad speech is more speech. Surely you are familiar with that expression. When you break out of your pattern of circular logic, please give everyone a heads up.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  82. Aaron

    There is great great dispute as to the ages of both Mary and Aleysh’a

    I wasnt there, but many “tainted” sources have both ascribed them to be child brides ad some “tainted” sources have ascribed them to be both underaged teenagers

    Since neither you or I or about anyone really freakin knows – and you are smart enough to know this – then given was she was 9 when she was “given” which means married and 15 when the marriage was consummated

    MAry on the other hand was pregnant very young 13 to 16 years old

    So some sources say

    But you knew all this and made a smear anyway because you do this and I can almost guarentee that you never ever had this conversation with a muslim a practicing devout muslim on this subject

    It would be like me smearing the pope at a knights of Columbus speech – these fantasies of yours just don’t happen and you are making stuff up to “justify” your smears plain and simple

    Had you decided like Beldar and Robin had suggested (and hudreds if ot thousands who read this thought) to make a seperate topic of the child bride controvesy then you wouldnt have heard from me – but that was clearly ot your intent

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  83. Now epwj is trying to tell AW what AW’s intent was.

    JD (ad76b9)

  84. Daley,

    I am asking Aaron why he made knowlingly false claims and is now making up false undocumented sources here in the comment section to justify what he is admitting was a smear but not a false one.

    Which is now extremely interesting or not.

    I was at the Library in Alexandria Egypt just a few days ago and was at one of the churches and had visited several coptic churches. I personally work with Egyptians almost daily and my wife supervises several.

    None of them have indicated anything remotely similar to andrews claims here. I have been in meetings, societies and lived among them for going on 7 years now – Iranians, Indonesians, Iraquis, Saudis, Yeminites, Syrians, and so on, shared decision making policies sat down and help develop sharia banking policies and advertizing.

    The Ped thing never came up in casual conversation, terrorism yes, pedy stuff no.

    Just sayin

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  85. Sorry I was talking to andrews while typing this Aaron :)

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  86. EPWJ, still waiting for you to grow up.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  87. JD,

    Or maybe I’m just asking him to explain it without making stuff up creating legions of muslims friends who discuss deepest of religious subjects with him, of course in all his posting he never ever mentioned these “friends” before

    Yeah that could be it

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  88. SPQR

    So’s my wife, kids, parents, friends, associates, and neighbors. The dog likes me just fine..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  89. Eric

    > There is great great dispute as to the ages of both Mary and Aleysh’a

    First, we are not talking about Mary who never verifiably had sex. I mean I tend to assume that after Jesus was born, she and joseph did, but Catholics maintain she remained a virgin until death.

    Second, no I have never heard of any dispute. Care to link to ANYONE disputing it?

    > then given was she was 9 when she was “given” which means married and 15 when the marriage was consummated

    The sources actually say she was married at 6 and it was consummated at 9. A lot is made of this because it was a real test of faith for her father.

    > MAry on the other hand was pregnant very young 13 to 16 years old

    God did not have sex with her.

    I mean maybe you don’t accept the Christian version of it, but since all we know about her comes from that…

    > But you knew all this

    Um, no. Psychic reading fail!

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  90. Aaron,

    Okay so you believe something that just cannot be proven, you have no proof and you knew this so – you are anti muslim, based upon the rationale that we saw yesterday to justify horrific behavior.

    Muslims defended christians with their LIVES and the LIVES of their families and you repaid them by reciting unproven unverified nasty borrish rumors that have been around for centuries

    as fact

    smearing as you have done before..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  91. “No, I’m just asking Aaron why he has a problem smearing muslims”

    EricPW – I understand where you have been living in recent years and I think it has affected your thinking about the various freedoms we enjoy in this country relative to those you see in the Middle East. I am asking you separate questions which you are dodging for some reason.

    Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country? I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    Why do you feel that we need to treat adherents of Islam with kid gloves when we do not necessarily feel the same way about adherents of other religions? Is it due to the tendency of some members of Islam to react violently when offended or threaten violence when offended? In this country we have an expression that the cure for bad speech is more speech. Surely you are familiar with that expression. When you break out of your pattern of circular logic, please give everyone a heads up.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  92. And you are not addressing your phantom conversations with legions of muslims on this subject (I know you didnt and you know you didnt and guess what no one here believes it either – come on man come clean dude – you made it up – you know you did!)

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  93. Daley

    I dont really read your comments – but keep trying

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  94. Eric

    > The Ped thing never came up in casual conversation, terrorism yes, pedy stuff no.

    I wouldn’t expect it to. It must be very hard for a good muslim to process this, because it is so evil.

    But did you ask them what the truth is?

    Btw, there is plenty of evidence on the subject. eg:

    http://www.bible.ca/islam/dictionary/A/aisha.html

    and numerous other sources are listed here at wiki.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

    Again, i have said this for years and no muslim has even disputed this. at most they say mohammed was 10 when they consummated it.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  95. Eric

    > you have no proof

    Except I have provided proof.

    > you are anti Muslim

    No, I am anti-Islam in the sense that I do not ascribe to that faith and consider it (and indeed all other faiths but my own) to be false.

    I do not impute the behavior of Mohammed to all of his followers. To a large extent I believe his followers. I do not think they are all bad, that they are all terrorists or child molesters.

    But what is the point arguing with you? You already think you know what I am thinking and you will pretend I said things I did not.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  96. wikipedia Aaron?

    I mean get one of your legions of muslims who believe what you say to blog here (no socky)

    I want you to find anyone here besides the small gang of usuals that beleive you were

    A. Not using this story to smear muslims

    B. Believe that you had these conversations

    C. Even had a conversation with a Muslim

    D. That you claimed you had proof but all you could dig up was Wikipedia?

    Aaron, everyoe knows you were making stuff up clarvioancy not required

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  97. Eric

    You know, I was going to write a lengthy response but all I have to respond to is this:

    > you claimed you had proof but all you could dig up was Wikipedia?

    Anyone who scrolls up can see I provided two other links before citing the sources listed at Wikipedia.

    So… lying… or just can’t count? YOU MAKE THE CALL!

    [edited after the fact for stupid typo]

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  98. Daleyrocks is asking you an interesting question, epwj. It is no surprise that you ignore it.

    AW – given the lies epwj has told about you, in this thread alone, your patience is commendable.

    JD (6e25b4)

  99. “I dont really read your comments – but keep trying”

    Heh!

    “No, I’m just asking Aaron why he has a problem smearing muslims”

    EricPW – I understand where you have been living in recent years and I think it has affected your thinking about the various freedoms we enjoy in this country relative to those you see in the Middle East. I am asking you separate questions which you are dodging for some reason.

    Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country? I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    Why do you feel that we need to treat adherents of Islam with kid gloves when we do not necessarily feel the same way about adherents of other religions? Is it due to the tendency of some members of Islam to react violently when offended or threaten violence when offended? In this country we have an expression that the cure for bad speech is more speech. Surely you are familiar with that expression. When you break out of your pattern of circular logic, please give everyone a heads up.

    Coward.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  100. You just don’t understand them like epwj. He writes sharia banking laws while restoring the Pyramids.

    JD (6e25b4)

  101. I can’t blame him for pretending not to read my comments after all the times I’ve kicked his butt on different threads for his inane analysis.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  102. Once upon a time the intent of this post was to point out the behavior of a large number of Muslims “proving to be a neighbor” to their Coptic Christian countrymen in Egypt. This is worth taking note of and praising.

    It would have been good had this post stayed on that topic.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  103. MD in Philly – You are correct that it was a praiseworthy act to protect the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Next week it will probably go back to the normal persecution and discrimination, I fear.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  104. Maybe for some, daley. I would guess that most of those who participated on behalf of the Coptics are the kind of folks who don’t do much active persecution anyway, but who also don’t stand up for them on a daily basis. Perhaps a few “wolves in sheep’s clothing” as well. I’m sure there will not be a tremendous change any time soon, but only God knows if some hearts and minds were changed that will truly make a difference in the end.

    This is my guessing from general knowledge, I have no direct information of the events.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  105. daleyrocks –

    Robin and EricPW – Are you saying that muslims are too backward and stupid to understand what is being said about their religion and the elements within it in this country. I think that is essentially the point you are making. You could be a little more upfront about it, though.

    Huh? I haven’t been paying attention to what EricPW has been saying, but how do you get that from what I was saying? My point was the opposite, that Muslims do understand what’s being said about their religion and that we should keep issues separate. Don’t bring up arguments about Mohammed marrying a 9-year-old when you’re, say, defending Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali against blasphemy charges: it’s irrelevant to the point at hand and won’t help persuade your listeners in the slightest.

    Aaron –

    And I believed it was necessary, and I meant it.

    You’re going to have to explain why to me, then, because I don’t see it. How will pointing out sordid details of Mohammed’s personal life help defend people like Rushdie or Hirsi Ali? How will it help persuade Muslim leaders to allow more religious freedom in their countries?

    Now, when you’re discussing something like Hirsi Ali’s controversial statement that “Muhammad is, seen by our Western standards, a pervert” — then yes, it’s necessary to bring it up. But when you’re discussing something unrelated, like persecution of other religions in Islamic-dominated countries, why bring up something irrelevant?

    Look at it another way. Say you’re trying to debate financial policy in a mixed group of conservatives and liberals, and for a change the discussion is staying cool and rational. (Yes, this is rare, but I’ve personally seen it happen.) Then someone brings up an emotionally-charged topic like abortion, and the conversation collapses into a shouting match. Mentioning abortion was not necessary in that context, and it didn’t help. All it did was kill any chance of having a productive debate on financial policy. Same thing with statements like “Mohammed was a pedophile” — they’re going to end the chances of moderate Muslims listening to you on any other subject. And as we’ve seen today, there are plenty of moderate Muslims who will stand with us on the subject of religious freedom.

    P.S. Please note that I am not trying to equate “Everybody Draw Mohammed” day with statements like “Mohammed was a pedophile”. I just realized that the “it” in your “it was necessary” statement might have been “Everybody Draw Mohammed” day, in which case we’ve been arguing past each other about two entirely different topics.

    > We should stand up for those like Rushdie who are being threatened by radicals.

    Good, how exactly do you propose that we do so?

    Give them political asylum. Refuse to bow to pressure to hand them over to their host countries. Provide security details for them when necessary. Criticize Islamic doctrines of intolerance. All kinds of ways.

    > well, if someone spat in your face, would you be inclined to help them out?

    Spitting in a person’s face is a physical act. If you do it you can be charged with a crime and sued for battery. If this isn’t true in all 50 states, its true in almost all of them. By comparison our constitution positively protects your right to blaspheme a faith.

    I was using spitting as a metaphor for the emotional content of the contempt conveyed. The legality of it has nothing to do with my point. You have a right to say whatever you like about a religious faith… but it’s bad tactics to do so if your intent is to persuade rather than merely to insult. If your intent is only to insult Muslims and get them mad, of course, then calling Mohammed a pedophile will achieve your intended purpose.

    Now, as I said earlier — if the “insult” to Mohammed that you’re talking about was merely depicting him in print… then that’s an entirely different case, and much (if not all) of what I’ve been saying doesn’t apply. Because I agree with you — the prohibition against depicting Mohammed does not, and should not, apply to people of other faiths, and we should not let the threats of violent fanatics intimidate us into giving up our freedom. And as you’ve pointed out, many moderate Muslims do recognize that fact as well. If you recall, the original Jyllands-Posten cartoons provoked pretty much no reaction in the majority of the Muslims of the world until three fake (and very insulting) cartoons were added for the express purpose of inciting riot. So yeah, I agree that “Everybody Draw Mohammed” day was necessary for the sake of standing up against tyranny. My point was only about claims like “Mohammed was a pedo”, which are rarely relevant to the discussion at hand and much more likely to push people away than to be useful.

    Robin Munn (cd9337)

  106. “Huh? I haven’t been paying attention to what EricPW has been saying”

    Robin Munn – It doesn’t matter whether you have been paying attention to what EricPW has been saying, because my questions were separate from his dialogue with Aaron. You in fact largely answer them in your comment:

    “Because I agree with you — the prohibition against depicting Mohammed does not, and should not, apply to people of other faiths, and we should not let the threats of violent fanatics intimidate us into giving up our freedom. And as you’ve pointed out, many moderate Muslims do recognize that fact as well. If you recall, the original Jyllands-Posten cartoons provoked pretty much no reaction in the majority of the Muslims of the world until three fake (and very insulting) cartoons were added for the express purpose of inciting riot. So yeah, I agree that “Everybody Draw Mohammed” day was necessary for the sake of standing up against tyranny.”

    EricPW will not address the question of why he believes one religion above all should remain immune from offense, of whatever nature.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  107. Robin

    > You’re going to have to explain why to me, then, because I don’t see it.

    I did. Read the link to the mission statement for the site I created. It explains it all.

    > why bring up something irrelevant?

    Because I never miss a chance to repeat what has infuriated the entire nation of Pakistan.

    > Give them political asylum.

    Salman rushdie doesn’t need to be protected form his government, but from nutcases… like Cat Stevens.

    > I was using spitting as a metaphor for the emotional content of the contempt conveyed.

    Bad metaphor, then.

    > The legality of it has nothing to do with my point.

    The legality of it, and the fact that it is actually a physical act has everything to do with mine.

    > You have a right to say whatever you like about a religious faith… but it’s bad tactics to do so if your intent is to persuade rather than merely to insult.

    I am neither attempting to persuade or insult. I am intentionally exposing myself to the same danger as rushdie, etc.

    By the way, Robin, I do distinguish significantly between your comments, which seem to amount to an honest disagreement, and Eric’s which have gone off the deep end of dishonesty. I assumed you knew that but I wanted to be clear.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  108. Religious discrimination and violence have been steadily growing in Egypt, and the Government’s failure to prosecute those who persecute Christians only adds fuel to the fire. Unless the Government takes firm actions to pass Anti-discriminatory laws (equality in the building of places of worship and swift punishment for those who incite hatred), the Alexandria church bombing will not be the last. On the contrary, it will be first step in Egypt’s spiral into social unrest. There is a glimmer of hope: the environment of “acceptable intolerance” is slowly changing. Calls for unity from the media and intellects that “we no longer are Muslim or Christian – we are all Egyptians” are spreading. However, these calls will continue to be undermined until the Government removes “religion” from off the personal Identification Cards. It’s a long shot, but only then can we say we have taken steps out of the dangerous spiral that threatens to engulf all Egyptians.

    Isis (8764cb)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5116 secs.