Patterico's Pontifications

6/11/2010

Saudi Arabia Gives Israel a Pass

Filed under: International — DRJ @ 7:43 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

The UK Times reports Saudi Arabia will let Israel cross its airspace to take out Iran’s nuclear sites:

“Saudi Arabia has conducted tests to stand down its air defences to enable Israeli jets to make a bombing raid on Iran’s nuclear facilities, The Times can reveal.
***
“The Saudis have given their permission for the Israelis to pass over and they will look the other way,” said a US defence source in the area. “They have already done tests to make sure their own jets aren’t scrambled and no one gets shot down. This has all been done with the agreement of the [US] State Department.”

I hope this U.S. defense source wasn’t the Times‘ only source. I also hope that if Israel does conduct an airstrike against Iran, President Obama will side with the Saudis and the Israelis instead of Iran and its enablers. For one of the few times in my life, I’m not sure which side the American government would support.

But at least now we know the old saying is true: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

— DRJ

63 Responses to “Saudi Arabia Gives Israel a Pass”

  1. Allowed to cross back?

    htom (412a17)

  2. This story should draw an interesting reaction from Imadamnutjob.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  3. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

    That’s kind of how I feel about Biden.

    Vermont Neighbor (5b9a87)

  4. Tomorrow morning would be good…

    Gazzer (d79016)

  5. A bit of sanity from a somewhat unexpected (but understood) source in the middle east.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  6. Repaint a few F15’s and the Saudi’s could pull off the job and blame the Israeli’s. (Except their pilots are nowhere near as good and they don’t have access to the weapons that Israel does.)

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  7. If we were serious, we would say “Do business with Iran and you don’t do business with America. Your choice”. North Korea, too, for that matter.

    nk (db4a41)

  8. There is a list that says that. You may not do business with businesses and financial institutions tied to the government and para-military forces of Iran, and expect to do business in the U.S.
    Now, respecting that proscription is something else. This administration is notorious for ignoring their sworn commitment to faithfully uphold and execute the laws of the United States.

    AD - RtR/OS! (d6c711)

  9. if we were serious about this, it would have happened 60-90 days from the first time Quods supplied rocket or EFP was found in Iraq, let alone killed one American.

    no warning, no sign, no request for consultation, just a swift, harsh, “don’t fuck wit us”.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  10. hmmm – I trust the Saudis assisting the Israelis to the degree I would entrust a child molester to babysit my kids. Anyone familiar with the term “Murder Hole?” – and no I do not intend “murder whore” to be heard by anyone reading this.

    enoch_root (174a66)

  11. G-d this in old news. This is recycling of information that was available months ago. Read the article below.

    In fact this information was first made public maybe as far back at 2009 by as I recall the Globe and Mail and Debka. Note the phrasing below includes the word “reran its offer”
    ——————————

    Saudis air corridor is open, US, Israel self-immobilized on Iran
    DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis June 12, 2010, 1:26 PM (GMT+02:00)

    Riyadh re-ran its offer of an air corridor for an Israel strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities (London Times), hoping to egg the US and Israel on to use it and recover their diminishing weight in the Middle East. Arab capitals are badly rattled by the thrusting partnership of the non-Arab Iran and Turkey and want to prod Washington and Jerusalem into action and out of their preoccupation with probing the flotilla incident. Jerusalem spurns the US demand to question Israeli servicemen as fueling the drive against Israel’s legitimacy.

    Read more

    http://www.debka.com/article/8845/

    Mike (ba41eb)

  12. hmmm – I trust the Saudis assisting the Israelis to the degree I would entrust a child molester to babysit my kids.

    You’d be surprised how much the urgent need for self – preservation changes the mind quite readily. I don’t like the Saudis, I’ve always felt them to be a bunch of narcissistic warlords – but one thing you have to give them, they’re not idiots.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  13. #Repaint a few F15’s and the Saudi’s could pull off the job and blame the Israeli’s. (Except their pilots are nowhere near as good and they don’t have access to the weapons that Israel does.)

    Comment by Have Blue — 6/11/2010 @ 8:20 pm

    Oh man, this would be such a catastrophe. It would also make for a pretty funny Mel Brooks movie.

    The kinds of bunker busters that could get through hundreds of feet of concrete are very heavy. Our latest weighs 15 tons (much more than an F-15 can carry). I wonder if Israel can pull this off. I know the US Air Force ought to, and probably is far better equipped for this specific kind of target. A B-2 and two ‘Massive Ordnance Penetrators’ for each major underground facility. Throw a Star of David on there just in case they fail, which they wouldn’t.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  14. Saudi proffers
    help to sons of Abraham
    common enemy

    ColonelHaiku (79bc23)

  15. the bottom line is they may hate the joooos but the saudis know what the facts are and the facts are no matter what the silly propaganda about israel and jews are reality is muslims do the most killing of other muslims with absolutely no compunction about it.

    in other words if iran decided it needed to wipe out the saudis to elevate shia islam over sunni/wahabbi islam, they wouldnt blink an eye and the saudis know it

    they know who the real barbarians at the gate are and its not the israelis…..

    rumcrook¾ (4a9bee)

  16. ahmadinejad
    in members only jacket
    obama for lunch

    ColonelHaiku (79bc23)

  17. Dustin – I do not have access to all of my reference materials right now but I believe I have seen F15’s with MER (Multiple Ejector Racks) carrying 6 1000 pound bombs on the fuselage centerline hardpoint. The centerline point and both wing hardpoints can carry a 660 gallon fuel tank.
    (The memory of the bomb load may have been an F15E Strike Eagle, so may not be applicable to the Saudis but is to Israel.)

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  18. hmmm – I trust the Saudis assisting the Israelis to the degree I would entrust a child molester to babysit my kids.

    I know, I guess the Saudis have to take that chance. I am no longer supporting the terror state of Israel after the Gaza fiasco. Turn off you TV sets and turn on your minds.

    BJ (52988c)

  19. Oh and I have read that MER racks are not currently carried on US aircraft limiting them to TER (and three weapons) per hard point.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  20. bj advises
    relax your mind tune in turn on
    hates him many jooos

    ColonelHaiku (79bc23)

  21. Remember the old leftist bumper sticker, that it will be nice when there is money for education and the military will have to run bake sales?

    Let’s start baking cookies to get Israel a few F-22’s.

    Hey, come to think of it, we probably have a better chance of getting the one to sell a few F-22’s to the Saudi’s who will lend them to Israel for the job.

    I do not for a moment think the Saudis are friends of Israel in any manner whatsoever, but as said above, they are rational, and they know who target #2 would be for Iran once Israel would be obliterated.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  22. MD in Philly – The F22 is strictly optimized for the air-toair fight. While it can carry air-to-ground ordinance it is not optimized for the role and probably not carry anything near the weight that even an unmodified F15 can. The F22 is designed to carry its weapons internally for stealth considerations.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  23. Israel has committed Human rights violations like the rest of the middle eastern countries. But worse because these acts were done in the name of Judaism. No sirs, Israel does not represent the Jewish world.
    A larger percentage of the German population were fooled by the propaganda of the media during the Holocaust. My grandfather was survivor and he has taught us well. We shall be of the 2% minority and will fight for justice of ailing nemesis Gazans against our Jewish brotheren in the name of Justice.

    [BJ, one of the rules here is to keep a consistent name. Commenting under a different alias, especially within the same thread, without acknowledging who you already commented as, is sockpuppeting. Pick a name and stick with it. –Stashiu]

    NB (52988c)

  24. Have Blue, the best F15 varient in Israel’s possession is the F15I ( amusingly I heard a self-proclaimed military expert call it the F151 (“one fifty-one”) on a tv program …

    The F15I is based on the F15E airframe, but with quite a bit of Israeli avionics and weapons upgrades.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  25. SPQR – You are correct. I thought we were still discussing the capabilities of Saudi F15’s.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  26. Have you ever noticed that the crazy posters cannot spell? Actually, I think they can. They just think it makes them more difficult to identify.

    Not so much.

    Eric Blair (20facf)

  27. We shall be of the 2% minority and will fight for justice of ailing nemesis Gazans against our Jewish brotheren (sic) in the name of Justice.

    NB… will you be helping the “ailing nemesis Gazans” load the rocket launchers or just providing them useful idiot-style assistance?

    ColonelHaiku (79bc23)

  28. fight for justice of ailing nemesis Gazans against our Jewish brotheren in the name of Justice.

    Merely a variation of the foolish sentiment evident in various people — almost always of the left — who give wide latitude and benefit of the doubt to felons because (wahh! sob, sob!) they came from broken homes, from a family ruined by greedy capitalism, from poor schools, from a society without enough social services, from a heartless community, from a racist, imperialistic culture, etc, etc.

    As for the victims of such felons?

    “Well, she shouldn’t have been walking around at night with a purse!”

    “He was driving around in a nice car, so his being carjacked means he just has to suck it up!”

    “Their house may have been burglarized and ransacked, but they still at least have a roof over their head — and plumbing and central air — at the end of the night!”

    “If they lived in a truly just, fair, less greedy, more humanitarian society, crime rates would be lower and we’d all be safer and happier!”

    Mark (411533)

  29. Mark, Colonel… I think the two odd posters are one and the same. And probably someone we have seen before under a different name.

    Eric Blair (20facf)

  30. MOAB’s are IIRC delivered by C-130’s.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c1f0da)

  31. I am no longer supporting the terror state of Israel after the Gaza fiasco. Turn off you TV sets and turn on your minds.

    Comment by BJ

    Never has such an idiotic statement been associated with such an accurate moniker. Wear your name proudly, BJ.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  32. No sirs, Israel does not represent the Jewish world.

    You express your ideas quite eloquently – may we subscribe to your newsletter?

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  33. Eric, if this is an example of the kind of students you have to deal with these days, you have my unending sympathy.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  34. BJ gave us the Helen Thomas version of reality.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. Have Blue-

    You are right, of course, in terms of carrying the payloads. What I didn’t think through and make clear was the idea of making it there and back without being intercepted. While the smart money would be on Israeli pilots in modified F-15’s, I thought it would be downright stupid to bet against them with F-22 escort. But then I could be wrong, I’m sure you know more about military matters than I do.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  36. AD – MOAB’s (Massive Ordinance Air Burst) are different animals from the various massive penetrators. The latter use a lot of different tricks to get way down even against reinforced concrete.

    The WWII Grand Slam was designed to be dropped from high altitude and penetrate through the dirt overburden to explode against bedrock and use the siesmic effects against massive structures like dams and viaducts. The British had to specially modify Lancasters to carry it.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  37. Dmac, the part that is both funny and sad is how very sophisticated they believe they are. Mind you, there are many fine students. But the snotty entitled trustifarians? Not so much.

    Eric Blair (20facf)

  38. MD – The Iranians are commonly not considered to have an overly effective airforce. There is a lot of arguement over how many of their F14’s could even get airborne and a lot more about whether they have the missles to arm them. They can probably get more F4’s up but the armament issues are still there, though not to the same extent as a lot of the issues with the F14 relate to the Phoenix missile which is not an issue with F4’s.

    Several years ago the Iranians bragged about creating a new “super”stealth fighter that would sweep the allies from the skies in the event of war. When they finally revealed it at a parade it looked like they had simply replaced the single fin of an F5E Tiger II with tandem fins.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  39. Over a decade ago there was specualtion about the Iranians modifying HAWK surface-to-air missiles to use as air-to-air missles on their F14s.

    Even more recently they managed to crash their only real asset which was the Ilyushin AWACs aircraft they got when the Iraqi’s flew it to Iran rather than have it destroyed by the allies in the war. You could see it for awhile on Google Earth parked at several Iranian airbases.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  40. If you Google Earth Tehran’s airport, there’s a helo that looks an awful lot like a Sea Stallion. It never moves, and I’ve always wondered if it’s one we left behind at Desert One.

    and have Blue’s right that the F-14s would get torn apart. These aren’t the US Navy’s. Even we had a hard time keeping F-14s well maintained.

    My understanding is that Israel does have jumbo jet sized drone aircraft, so the F-15s they have might be tasks with SEAD while the robots carry huge penetrators.

    Sadly, this is all fantasy. The time to strike Iran was probably when Bush was a lame duck or during their massive unrest over their ‘election’.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  41. Dustin – The Iranians were operators of many different Us helicopter models. You can still see Hueys, Cobras, and Chinooks at many Iranian bases.
    The various models of the big Sikorsky helicopters are difficult to differentiate on Google. Count rotor blades if they are deployed and not folded (which in itself is a clue) and try to see if the tail fin is canted to the side. Trying to pick out the third engine is a lot more problematical most of the time.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  42. Massive Penetrators…
    Isn’t the latest iteration of these bunker-busters pretty much solid concrete with GPS-controlled guide-fins that are just pushed out the back of C-130’s/C-5’s/C-17’s from as high as you can get the aircraft?

    AD - RtR/OS! (c1f0da)

  43. Mark, Colonel… I think the two odd posters are one and the same. And probably someone we have seen before under a different name.
    Comment by Eric Blair — 6/12/2010 @ 11:04 am

    I was out this morning so just getting caught up. You’re right, they’re the same and I just gave a warning. Nice catch.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  44. Have Blue, you clearly know what you’re talking about. I just googled and Iran has the same helo we used in Desert One anyway (which is crazy… that’s an excellent helicopter). I should have figured that out. I guess I should be able to expect Army special ops types to blow anything up before they retreated in 1979.

    AD, we use concrete bombs to reduce collateral damage, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of bunker busters do have concrete. Israel has those GBU-28s, which are old howitzer barrels stuffed with 600 pounds of explosive (and weigh 5000 pounds).

    The ‘latest’ as far as I know (I’m not in the know) is the six times larger Massive Ordnance Penetrator, which we finished just after Bush left office, sadly. Its main reason for being is that the MOABs and others just are not up to the task of Iran’s most hardened facilities (thanks Russia!).

    Maybe Israel already made something this big, but the real problem is getting it to the target. All I can do is pray they are up to this inevitable conflict, and that Obama helps them out. Hey, it could be like that Aspirin Factory!

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  45. Whise side will Obama be on. [object]

    Moneyrunner (8f100c)

  46. good…

    123 (b50a2e)

  47. Our latest weighs 15 tons (much more than an F-15 can carry).

    Comment by Dustin — 6/12/2010 @ 10:02 am

    Dustin — I think that is correct (re: the carrying capacity of the F-15).

    For F-15 C/D and probably close for the E)

    Max weight: 81,000

    Empty weight: 31,700
    Fuel weight (int): 12,530
    Fuel wieght (ext): 12,810
    ————————
    sub-total wieght: 57,040

    81 k – 57.04 k = about 24,000 pounds

    and since 15 tons = 33,600 lbs

    then the 15-ton bunker buster is too much weight and exceeds the max take-off weight of the F-15 by almost 10,000 lbs.

    (Course there are nuclear bunker busters, that can be carried by F-15’s and even F-16’s, but that should not be an issue…should not be…)

    Pons Asiorum (0ae484)

  48. Pons, looking at your numbers, it could be possible to load up that 15 metric ton bunker buster (since 15 US tons is 30,000 pounds) if the external fuel was zero, could it not?

    I do not know how much fuel it would take for the round trip, but if it takes more than just the internal, it could be possible to short-load the fuel for take-off and top off in flight over Israel or the Mediterranean. If it’s not possible to refuel the externals mid-flight, the internals can be shorted the 10,000 pounds necessary, or a combination of shorting can be done. It is more difficult for an engine to get a plane off the ground than it is to keep the plane flying.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  49. Of course, ground clearance is a different issue entirely.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  50. Good points all, Mr. Hitchcock — I stand corrected, thanks.

    If it is possible, I have no doubt the Israelis will figure it out. No shortage of courage, skills or leadership over there (total opposite when compared to the Obama Admin).

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  51. John – When working up a warload for a modern aircraft you have to consider the capacity for the individual hardpoints as well as the overall max payload. An F15A/B/C/D has a center line point and a point on each wing as well as attachments for missiles on the lower corners of the fuselage. E’s can carry bombs where the others carry missiles, but none of them can carry anywhere near the maximum load on a single point.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  52. “For one of the few times in my life, I’m not sure which side the American government would support.”

    I really have to wonder just how stupid someone would have to be to be unsure as to whether the Obama administration would be supportive of Israel over Iran. I mean, really. Just how instensely moronic would someone have to be to actually question “which side” the US would take? Could a severe blow to the skull cause enough brain damage to leave them at such a doubt? Could be be a drug interaction? Congenital defect? Food poisoning?

    Really. Just what kind of stupid, retarded, moronic, idiotic, insipid, defective, sleazy, backwards,, paranoid, racist fool would actually wonder whether the Obama administration would back Israel over Iran?

    Just wondering, for curiosity’s sake.

    Also, does anyone around here have an actual legitimate adult critique of the Obama administration, or is it just brain damaged lunacy like this?

    JMJ

    [Released from the filter. You may want to read this, JMJ. — DRJ]

    Jersey McJones (d75d46)

  53. The B-2 Spirit was only barely capable of loading this weapon (2 of them) after significant modifications. And that’s a huge aircraft with a massive capacity.

    A tactical nuclear bunker buster and a highly survivable plane like an F-15 would be perfect but for the tremendous political weight of the using nukes against Iran for making nukes. I wouldn’t lose a second of sleep over this, except worry that the world would once again turn on Israel. And isn’t it amazing that it mostly already has? We’re more upset (as a world) over Israel building a house or searching a flotilla headed for Hamas than we are about *Iran* developing nukes with the promise to annihilate the Israelis.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  54. Look! Broken spam filters! I speck someone will filter the spam shortly.

    [I moved three comments to the spam filter, and I’m adding this to clarify that your comment refers to spam that is now gone. But they were kind of funny. — DRJ]

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  55. Jersey McJones, why on earth would you think someone is racist for that line of thinking?

    And it’s not a matter of taking sides. Of course Obama isn’t going to bomb Israel on Iran’s behalf. But without a strong level of support, the scales are so weighted against Israel that it can be a threat to her very existence (is this strange to you as well?).

    Tell me, which side would Helen Thomas take? I think she would obviously take Iran’s, as all Jews must be cleansed from ‘Palestine’ in her worldview. And Helen Thomas is less radical than Rev Wright, huge antisemite, or Bill Ayers, terrorist. There’s a reason the democrats are hiding the Khalidi Bash tape.

    You want Obama’s loyalties and strange secretive ties to absolute maniacs beyond Helen Thomas to be completely off limits, hence the ‘racism’ charge. I think, within the bounds of US politics, Obama is veering as far as he can to permit Iran to gain nukes and to constrain Israel.

    Obama gave an order that his picture is not even to be taken with Benyamin Netenyahu. What an extremist!

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  56. I gotta say JMJ did not provide anything other than blather in its comment. Just a “how dare you children attack Obama!! You must all be racists!!!” As far as its comment goes, there’s no “there” there.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  57. According to General Jones, what action would the US take if Israeli warplanes entered Iraqi airspace enroute to targets in Iran?

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  58. Hint – it was not provide escort.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  59. Have Blue, I have no idea if you flew Night Hawks, but if you were flying an interceptor and got an order to shoot down an Israeli aircraft, would you obey the order?

    I probably shouldn’t admit it, but I would certainly have taken pause to consider it, even though in the situation you mentioned, it’s a lawful order that I’d have been under oath to obey (I’m long out of the service).

    Israel needs two of those lesser Aircraft Carriers and some JSFs. They have a huge problem with the geography.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  60. According to this map and Saudi permission, Israel can bypass Iraq altogether so long as Israel has the fuel.

    And as far as following a lawful order, it’s difficult to lawfully order a shooting down of an ally plane. And even so, I would have difficulties getting a radar lock on the target.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  61. And even so, I would have difficulties getting a radar lock on the target.

    Sounds good to me. Thankfully, this is certainly not a possibility. They would get clearance or find a different way. That they found a different way hopefully isn’t an indication that they asked permission and were denied. I’d hate to think our military was denying them self defense because of our president.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  62. John – Yes which was one of my first thoughts when the news on the Saudi poition came out. What does it say about the world when the House of Saud is more supportive of the security of Israel then the Obama aministration.

    Dustin – I might have a series of intermittant faults in a whole host of systems from radar to missile seperation mechanisms.

    At one time the speculation would be that the route would be out over the Mediteranean, thennorth to cross over Turkey (aerial refueling over the safe airspace in Turkey while flying east) then turning south to fly into Iran through the mountains. The recent problems with the Turkish-Israeli relation puts paid to that.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  63. An army travels on its stomach.

    Sometime in the future:
    “Syria Israel clash on Golan” NY Times headline

    Obama calls for a cease fire, to address UN Security Council.

    Hezbolla in Gaza and Lebanon join in attack.

    Israel mobilizes reserves.

    President Obama calls for calm.

    Egypt moves troops to Israeli border.

    UN calls for cease fire, asks African countries for peacekeeping troops.

    Israeli troops halt attack of three Arab armies in fierce counter-attack.

    Iran sends Revolutionary Guard to aid Arab brethren in repelling “Zionists.”

    Israel accused to killing civilians in fierce urban fighting in Gaza and Lebanon.

    Obama asks for UN fact finding group to determine who is responsible for civilian casualties;
    calls for restraint on all sides.

    Israeli ordnance and ammunition begins to inhibit military action. Request for resupply sent to Washington.

    Obama asks Joint chiefs to study situation.
    Prepares new UN resolution.

    Israeli ammunition falls to critical levels, Urgent request for new supplies sent to Washington.

    Obama urges restraint on all parties, Egypt demands America stay out.

    Obama says that Russians military deliveries to Iran and Syria “not helpful.”

    Munitions exhausted, Israel withdraws from Golan Heights.

    Obama calls for cease fire not heeded by Syria, Egypt, Iran.

    Fighting breaks out on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Israeli government flees to undisclosed location.

    Obama calls for UN brokered cease fire. Request for supplies denied, Administration fears that they will fall into invading Syrian and Iranian hands.

    Obama denounces ethnic cleansing of Jews following fall of Jerusalem. Somali UN peacekeepers sent to area to restore order.

    Remaining 3 million Jews guarded by UN troops.

    Obama asks Poland, Germany and Russia to accept their share of refugees.

    “Three million Jewish refugees add to America’s grand mosaic. Obama to greet first planeload.” NY Times headline

    Moneyrunner (8f100c)


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