Patterico's Pontifications

2/7/2009

“Stimulus” Deal Reached

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 2:02 pm



Democrats have reached a deal on a stimulus, along with “Republicans” Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe, and Arlen Specter. It’s $780 billion — only $5652 per taxpayer. What a deal. Thanks guys!

UPDATE: Meanwhile, even though newspapers have told us that the current economic climate simply demands a stimulus, there are credible people saying that a stimulus is exactly what we don’t need, and that there are other, better ways to improve the economy.

So it’s close to a trillion dollars and may have the opposite effect of that intended. Yay.

112 Responses to ““Stimulus” Deal Reached”

  1. A deal that would feel good to Andrew Sullivan, I suppose.

    The pissed off Dana (556f76)

  2. Still waiting for the Democrat’s and the MSM’s list of all previous successful “stimulus” programs. Especially, the list of successful stimulus programs based on government spending.

    Perfect Sense (0922fa)

  3. We are truly doomed. Idiots!

    Old Coot (who also wants DRJ back) (529757)

  4. Schiff is full of cack. He’s basically betting that the dollar will fall apart because he’s investing everything he has on gold and China. He has a vested interest in economic Armageddon. Why can’t you guys on the Right do any better than this parasitic loony?

    Peter (e70d1c)

  5. Peter,

    Do you have a similar refutation of the economists who signed the letter at the second link?

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  6. I saw an interview with Sen. Collins earlier today. It was painful. She could not explain how any of the “tax cuts” would actually help any taxpayers, and kept repeating that the economy needs spending, and this will prove that the government is serious about taking control of the economy. I almsot hurled. Screw her, Snowe, and Specter. I would rather Baracky have a filibuster-proof majority than to have these long-time RINO’s give the Dems cover for over $750,000,000,000 in Dem special interst spending.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  7. Schiff is full of cack. He’s basically betting that the dollar will fall apart because he’s investing everything he has on gold and China. He has a vested interest in economic Armageddon. Why can’t you guys on the Right do any better than this parasitic loony?

    While this is a fine Ad Hominem attack, your comment doesn’t actually address his statement, or suggest he is – in fact – wrong.

    Scott Jacobs (who wants DRJ to come back) (a1c284)

  8. Peter,
    Have you seen the clip of Schiff being mocked by all the optimists from about a year ago? Everything he predicted happened. How is it more reasonable to assume that our bubbles can last forever?

    Patricia (89cb84)

  9. We should quit referring to this as some stimulus package. It is special interest spending. Nothing more. Most of this should be debated in the normal course of the legislative process, and has no business in a so-called stimulus package.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  10. I vote we’re doomed too I think. This just isn’t the way normal healthy democratic countries handle matters of economics.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  11. Patterico and Scott – You must know by now that Peter only brings that kind of drivel, and will never substantively respond to your responses. All it has is heat. And a skull full of mush.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  12. He has a vested interest in economic Armageddon.

    Schiff is wisely preparing for the Democrat ordered Armageddon.

    Why can’t you guys on the Right do any better than this parasitic loony?

    Peter, Peter, Peter – its the Democrats who are the parasites. Schiff has a real job based on voluntary exchanges of goods and services. Why can’t the Democrats do any better than spending other people’s money?

    Perfect Sense (0922fa)

  13. He has a vested interest in economic Armageddon.

    As did George Soros, and he made billions on his bet – so he’s now a bad person in your world, yes?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  14. So it’s close to a trillion dollars and may have the opposite effect of that intended. Yay.

    Either that or it may have the exact effect Baracky is intending. We don’t really know him all that well enough to divine his intentions I don’t think. I don’t have any confidence in him doing anything helpful for my little country though. That’s what presidents used to do, and the American people voted for change.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  15. Fine. It passed. The President keeps saying it’s necessary to stop all the jobs that people are losing(I think I heard a figure of 500 million a month).

    So now unemployment is going to go down, right? Because that’s what the stimulus package is supposed to do, right? There will be a noticeable, sharp change in the employment figures starting on, say, Monday, right?

    Pious Agnostic (b2c3ab)

  16. Stimulus” Deal Reached
    Hurray! Now thats what am talking about! About time. wwwooooooooooohoooo!!

    Emperor7 (0c8c2c)

  17. Pat and Patricia: Well it’s not like the CATO institute doesn’t have an agenda, is it? Economist are such a strange group of people comprising everything from Mathematicians, to sociologists to, even biologists and physicists, but you can usually parse out the ones who’re not to be trusted.

    Schiff is saying that not only is the American economy going to implode spectacularly, but that it’s going to lead to a hyperinflation not seen in since Weimar Germany and sees the best strategy as getting out of dollars and buying Euros or Asian currencies or gold, but what sense does that make, when the Europeans for one are just as invested in derivatives as the U.S., (American financial dominance and what were supposed to be sound “cutting edge” financial products saw to that.) and the Chinese are facing internal unrest from all the American Co.s (Hasbro, Mattel for example) that are shuttering their factories there, not to mention the European Co.’s that are doing the same. It makes no sense.

    If that wasn’t enough he believes that the stimulus will is exactly what will cause the hyperinflation that will lead to all this economic disaster, yet he’s been betting on Gold and Hyperinflation for years, when most economist I read say the real danger is that of Deflation, which is much more egregious and difficult to contain once it begins than inflation and that’s exactly what the Stimulus should help protect the country against.

    I honestly don’t think the downturn was difficult to predict and frankly, I’m not sure how all these people in high places and ivory towers did not see how unsustainable and illusory all the amazing “wealth creation” was and really just speculation and government over greasing the gears of business with fantastic tax-breaks, less regulation, less oversight and a willingness to bend over backwards to let the private sector do whatever they wanted.

    It’s not difficult to understand that when everyone is getting rich, no one is getting rich.

    I could see that and called that in 2005.

    Schiff only makes sense in that he sees this as a systemic situation that needs a systemic fix, but even there he’s loony tune because he thinks what would’ve prevented the credit crash was even less regulation and less government oversight.

    Look into Robert Schiller (Yale) or N. Roubini (NYU). Both those guys called it and both of those guys have solutions that don’t sound out of a comic book (like Schiff). Schiller especially is fascinating.

    Anyway, what we need is more regulation, better designed high quality derivatives and a massive stimulus bill that gets money into the economy as quickly and effectively as possible with spending on programs that have a long term and high rate or return.

    My 2 cents. Plus tax.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  18. Oh one last item of interest: Schiff was Ron Paul’s economic advisor. DO the math. Thank you and good night.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  19. Hurray! Now thats what am talking about! About time. wwwooooooooooohoooo!!

    High five, Emperor7.

    (Lovey??)

    Peter (e70d1c)

  20. okay. What do you think causes inflation, Peter?

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  21. What really concerns me is the effect this will have on interest rates. The T-bill auction last week saw rates climb in order to get them sold. This will be a huge white elephant on the market and they will either have to raise rates to get them sold or see the auction fail. The Obama-Peter geniuses think that everyone in the world will run to buy American debt when a trillion dollars of it is offered. I have a bad feeling about this.

    This will guarantee a primary opponent for Specter, probably Toomy who is very sharp and was on the NRO cruise. Bush failed to support Toomey in 2002 because he was hoping Specter would be a good Republican for a change. Unfortunately, it will be too late for a lot of the country.

    I was talking to my sister in Chicago just now. She and her husband go out to lunch and dinner more than I do and she was commenting on the restaurants closing. Obama is up there talking about catastrophe and people stay home and save money and pay off credit cards. All that is good but it is costing other people their jobs. I hope the jobless know why they are out of work.

    He is a disaster and it will be obvious by the end of the year. The worst of it is that the recovery seemed to be starting already and this could kill it off.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  22. It’s not difficult to understand that when everyone is getting rich, no one is getting rich.

    I could see that and called that in 2005.

    So I assume you are heavily invested in gold ? Too bad you didn’t have the ear of Barney Frank at the time.

    Tell us how you sold your house at the peak and bought gold.

    You did, didn’t you ?

    Peter ?

    Mike K (2cf494)

  23. #10 happyfeet:

    This just isn’t the way normal healthy democratic countries handle matters of economics.

    I don’t know that democratic countries can act in a healthy economic manner over a terribly long term: eventually, it would seem there arises a class that figures it easier to vote themselves the fruits of others labors.

    Egged on by a particularly nasty kind of politician, who would claim to be doing it “for the children,” of course.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  24. Economists are academics for the most part, except perhaps when occasionally elevated to a bureaucratic decision maker role (gulp). They are paid to be academics. Act on their theoretical conclusions at your own peril. They rarely do that themselves. Most appear quite content to hide in the ivy and take potshots at the market participants. That’s perhaps why one is hard pressed to find a wealthy economist. Unless daddy was a risk taker, you’re going to have to do it yourself.

    Schiff is one who puts his own funds at risk in real markets. He also manages funds. So, yes, there’s always the chance that someone is
    “talking their book” [book equates to a portfolio here]. Soros is infamous for that. Just last week he was working the BP in the media in order to offload his short position. Did well, too.

    But over the years I’ve learned much more from people who will risk their own money, or make their living competing for others’ investment funds, than those who put other people’s money at risk with nary a risk of their own. From what I’ve gleaned from Schiff’s recent writings, he’s in agreement with the ones who know that current Fed actions of increasing the money supply always decreases the value of the individual unit of currency. This is a monetary manipulation, not an economic strategy in and of itself. Yet with fiat currencies, there will necessarily be concomitant repercussions as the participants of an economy adjust their behavior to these changes of currency valuation.

    Simple example…if the lender understands he will be loaning out ‘strong’ dollars and being paid back in ‘weaker’ dollars, he will require more of those weaker dollars paid to him in the form of higher interest rates.

    When the Fed arbitrarily manipulates interest rates, this forces the private lenders to accept lower interest rates as the money supply is increasing. One can readily observe that the private lenders either decline to lend, or as witnessed in recent times, choose to protect their risk of return with derivatives. That’s just on the money side. Then there are the credit issues…really ugly stuff that.

    In the end, it’s your money. Better know the risks, and that includes the risk of doing nothing. At any given point in time it’d be a wise move to learn whether your money is losing or gaining in buying power. And what to do about it either way. Now if one doesn’t have any money, then that kind of solves the problem. Although it does lead to one feeling like a ping pong ball in a Class IV wind. I’ve been in both predicaments. You just make the best of each as it comes.

    allan (ad9bc3)

  25. The Megaporkatropolis is so big you can smell the bacon cooking in Washington D.C. in Washington State (you can probably smell it in Alaska and Hawaii too).

    Joe (dcebbd)

  26. probably Guam and American Samoa ta boot!

    Joe (dcebbd)

  27. EW1(SG) … that’s really grim and I want to argue that but it’s sort of a moot point come Monday I think. Dirty socialist checkmate is what this is.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  28. #22 Mike K, quoting some troll that’s otherwise in my scrollover zone:

    It’s not difficult to understand that when everyone is getting rich, no one is getting rich.

    The problem with this statement of course, is that there is a difference between wealth and riches~the world is a much wealthier place now than in my childhood: the variety of foods in the market is greater, people live longer, our homes are larger, more people than ever can afford an auto of their own, and on and on…and not just in this country, but everywhere that trades with us and each other.

    The problem for socialists and muzzy headed liberals like the one Mike quotes is that there remain disparities in wealth and riches, because somebody still has more!

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  29. #27 happyfeet:

    but it’s sort of a moot point come Monday

    Oh, I think its been a moot point for some time now.

    Certainly since Johnson’s “Great Society.” and perhaps even further back.

    I think the real shocker is that we have reached what may be a tipping point in the world economy, in that for the first time since the Great Depression, it seems poised to crash and burn, with President O!bama and the rest of the Limo Libs in charge pouring accelerant on the flames.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  30. We’re Americans. We can survive the jug-eared shit.

    nk (a12124)

  31. And also two very confused and bitter hoochies from Maine. And Arlen.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  32. Here’s an article that discusses Schiff’s track record, called Peter Schiff Was Wrong. By the way, Schiff’s daddy is the legendary convicted tax protester, Irwin Schiff.

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  33. Peter once again demonstrates the depths of his ignorance, this time in economics.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  34. okay. What do you think causes inflation, Peter?

    There’s no question that a trillion dollars injected into the economy raises the specter of inflation, but I don’t think it’s the catastrophic hyperinflation Schiff is talking about and the American Dollar is still, believe it or not, the safest and most attractive currency in the world. That is not going to change for the foreseeable future. This country should’ve never gotten into this much debt to begin with and I’m sure you know who I blame for that: all those small government fiscally responsible Republicans in the Congress. Who when Bush was in office, were justifying tens of billions of dollars being spent in Iraq, but now have suddenly discovered their values and are against billions of dollars being spent here, for infrastructure and programs that yield long term benefits to the economy (nationwide on-demand high speed wireless broadband!)

    Obama is up there talking about catastrophe and people stay home and save money and pay off credit cards. All that is good but it is costing other people their jobs. I hope the jobless know why they are out of work.

    Um, so wait, him talking about it for 17 days as president is causing people to lose jobs?? How about when McCain was finally talking about it. Did that cause people to lose jobs? So the recklessness of the last 8 years had nothing to do with it?

    So if the stimulus is passed, people will feel more secure and go out to eat at restaurants and people will keep their jobs, right?

    One last thing Mike, a couple of days ago you proved how ACORN was being given $6 Billion dollars (it was actually more like $5.5 or so but who wants to be precise when you need to create an illusion of a deep and irresponsible liberal Putsch to spend all the people’s money?)

    The reason you said they were getting $6 Billion dollars (the whole thing right?) is because they could apply</i>, along with every other community and neighborhood associations in the country for funds in the stimulus bill being made available for community programs.

    Doesn’t that level of twisting of the truth embarrass you at all? Is it just that you know that since the Right still more or less controls the narrative in this country that demonizes liberals you think you can get away with such a deplorable and unethical lie and distortion? It’s crazy. Like Limbaugh distortion techniques 101. Make a definitive accusations on the most tenuous and specious of grounds that harp on the well established myths and narratives the GOP has installed against Dems and Liberals and just keep repeating it, no matter how utterly ridiculous the accusation is.

    But, you now alone, JD above is going on and on about how everything in the Bill is for special interests, and he’s doing the same thing you are, making an untrue statemtn based on a myth and backed up by the most ridiculous and logic twisting nonsense. Or the other big narrative you guys are hot and horny about perpetrating that Obama is a coward and weak. Again, limbaugh distortions 101: All liberals are cowards and weak.

    Don’t you guys every tire of this sh*t?

    Anyhow, I just thought I’d point that out. Enjoy it for now, because the changes that are coming to the holy narrative firmament the right has enjoyed since Reagan and right wing radio came into prominence is going to reach its expiration date. Why? You ask. Because, we’re in a new place in this country and I think there’s a serious change happening. And the distortions and false narrative you guys have taken for granted and enjoyed for so long is going sound as relevant and dated as doo wop.

    The next couple of years are going to be intense. Fasten your seat belts. Hope we all get through it alright.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  35. This interview with Robert Barro is to the point – that this “stimulus” bill is a disasterous joke.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  36. The last time there was a Democratic President, a Democratic House, a Democratic Senate, and a Fairness Doctrine was 1980. We all know what a disaster that turned out to be.

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  37. “I could see that and called that in 2005.”

    Peter – Link please.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  38. This country should’ve never gotten into this much debt to begin with

    I think you’re missing something though. Think about this. Those dirty socialists just passed a major entitlement expansion with SCHIP and what? No one really said anything. None of the blogs I like anyway. We know it’s not paid for. I can’t be the only person who read that and started chantix the next week. So there’s an extra let’s say 20 billion of debt that’s on top of the dirty socialist spending orgy coming Monday.

    Here’s the deal. After Monday, everything else looks like small potatoes. Who’s gonna give a flip about piling on another 20 billion here or 40 billion there? Baracky? No. Harry? No. Nancy? Ha. And sure as hell not those dippy postmenopausal loons from Maine.

    Baracky has only begun to spend. Don’t forget we still have to eradicate global poverty and wage unrelenting was on teh little carbon dioxide molecules. That is not distortion. That is not false narrative. That’s what our daft neophyte president says with his own dumb mouf.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  39. oh. unrelenting *war* that should be

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  40. The problem for socialists and muzzy headed liberals like the one Mike quotes is that there remain disparities in wealth and riches, because somebody still has more!

    No, the problem for me is that human greed is so self-serving and self-blinding that no one begins to even understand anymore how deeply they are screwing not only themselves, but the whole country, even people who stay away from unethical business practices or just want to save their money. The system rewards bad and unwise behavior and it would be fine if the people who took part in such crack addict like market behavior (and ask anyone, investing is as much of a high and an addiction as anything you want to name) only effected themselves. But that’s not the case is it? No the whole country is screwed at the moment because of the stupid and foolish behavior of brilliant political ideologues with fantastical visions of a magical genius free market that was supposed to be infallible and perfect.

    If people want to be rich, they should produce something real and worthwhile for others and I include art or literature in that or software or food or cars or medical supplies or guitars, so on and so forth, not abstract schemes that game the system (which was rigged anyway).

    Peter (e70d1c)

  41. you have a very jaundiced view of your fellow Americans I think

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  42. Please don’t blame the Federal Government for too much borrowing and too much debt. As bad as that was, it was dwarfed by the debt built up by the private sector, as they lent money for a seemingly infinite number of mortgages, played with credit default swaps, and built up a notional $700 trillion in derivatives.

    It’s all debt and it’s imploding. The credit contraction is happening faster, and money is disappearing faster, than Bernanke can print it.

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  43. Baracky will hit at a deficit of at least 12% of GDP though. That’s … excessive.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  44. Green flag racing. Go 88! Wreck Kyle Busch.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  45. Don’t blame the government mandate to issue mortgages to people who couldn’t afford to own homes. Don’t blame the government mandate to excuse Fannie and Freddie from normal government oversight while Fannie and Freddie were pumping millions into Democrat campaign coffers. It’s the private sector that followed the government mandates that is to blame.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  46. How does the amount that Baracky will spend in his first 3 weeks in office compare to how much we have spent in Iraq, to date?

    JD (fb1fc9)

  47. Dr. K. #22, having looked at #39, I believe you have your answer.

    I smell someone who thought they were smart and took a bath.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  48. the changes that are coming to the holy narrative firmament the right has enjoyed since Reagan and right wing radio came into prominence is going to reach its expiration date.

    Actually, it’s a shame that rightwing radio didn’t exist far, far before Reagan and the 1980s, in that one of the biggest icons and heroes of the left — who perhaps is given some slack even by a variety of conservatives, partly due to his dealings with Hitler and World War II — in actuality was as much of a dope as his successor is over 60 years later.

    As for spreading some blame around, I will admit that George Bush during his 8 years in office allowed too many bloated budgets to get through without his veto. However, I also knew that a typical Democrat occupying the same White House would have been delirious with delight over the idea of upping the ante in spendthrift budgeting, and Obama merely verifies my assumption.

    newsroom.ucla.edu, 8-10-04:

    Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    After scrutinizing Roosevelt’s record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

    “Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump,” said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA’s Department of Economics. “We found that a relapse isn’t likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies.”

    In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

    Mark (411533)

  49. Doesn’t that level of twisting of the truth embarrass you at all? Is it just that you know that since the Right still more or less controls the narrative in this country that demonizes liberals you think you can get away with such a deplorable and unethical lie and distortion? It’s crazy

    Twisting the truth ???? I said 6 billion and it was actually 5.5 billion ?

    I denounce myself.

    Kid, why don’t you read the account of how Barney Frank got the $12 million to the little internet bank in his district? They write a bill so that it applies to one entity but doesn’t name it. ACORN is the principle “community organizer” outfit in the country and just happens to have a long-standing association with the president. What do you think the chances are that they will be successful in their “application?” About the same as Barney Frank’s favorite bank ?

    Come on. Maybe you really were born yesterday.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  50. “…since the Right still more or less controls the narrative in this country that demonizes liberals you think you can get away with such a deplorable and unethical lie and distortion? It’s crazy…”

    Well, the last sentence is accurate, anyway.

    I would hate to see what that poster felt was a media run by the Left wing, given that the poster feels that the Right is running the media.

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  51. In the meantime, if any organization receives any of this “stimulus” money, that organization’s freedom of religion is abridged. The lines in the bill are so vague that senators were asking if a college could be held liable if a handful of students chose to hold an impromptu Bible study in their dorm rooms.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  52. So very little of this travesty is stimulus. This is a spending bill. Period. And the pigs are already at the trough.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  53. “But that’s not the case is it? No the whole country is screwed at the moment because of the stupid and foolish behavior of brilliant political ideologues with fantastical visions of a magical genius free market that was supposed to be infallible and perfect.”

    Peter – That’s funny. Can you actually back any of that drivel up with facts?

    I think we’re screwed because of the interference of political idealogues, read democrats, into the functioning of free markets for real estate in the form of strong arming lending institutions into making loans to borrowers they wouldn’t otherwise have made any then resisting the prudent oversight of the two largest mortgage purchasers in the U.S. who had implicit government guarantees for their operations, leading to an acceleration of risky lending activity and the explosion of a derivative market based on that lending. Government interference in otherwise free markets was the cause of the problem not what you suggest, but unreasonable people differ.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  54. I think spending a trillion dollars in a dirty socialist frenzy your first two weeks in office while screeching in panic like a little girl what’s encountered a big hairy spider sort of demonizes itself really. But I’m happy to help.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  55. I blame Bush. And Phil Graham.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  56. FWIW – I dislike Kyle Busch almost as much as the dirty little socialist.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  57. The Messiah just bought himself and the Demo-craps the mid term and 2012 elections with MOSTLY Republican money.

    Most of this pork to goose the economy well past 2009 and into 2010 ++

    Quite ingenious.

    Obama über alles!!!!! (48dd5e)

  58. The system rewards bad and unwise behavior and it would be fine if the people who took part in such crack addict like market behavior (and ask anyone, investing is as much of a high and an addiction as anything you want to name) only effected [sic] themselves. But that’s not the case is it? No the whole country is screwed at the moment because of the stupid and foolish behavior of brilliant political ideologues with fantastical visions of a magical genius free socialist market that was supposed to be infallible and perfect.

    Fixed that for ya’.

    We haven’t had free markets in this country for a long time (unless you count technologies where the government hasn’t had time to catch up to them, or are small enough to escape the attention of a powerful lobby). Certainly not in my lifetime, which goes doubly for you.

    And historically, even free markets are subject to perturbation by bad actors: who can get away with malicious behavior because it’s unknown to the market. But the more “perfect” the communication, the less opportunity for an individual bad actor (whether it be an individual in the form of a person or a coporation of some kind) to screw around, because the market won’t willingly reward that bad behavior.

    Unlike our current “mixed” economy~a euphemism for socialist control of many markets and large sectors of others, where bad behavior is often induced by regulations legislated by possibly well meaning individuals, or more often, self centered twits like Specter, Pelosi, et al.

    Really, all this is very elementary, and anybody who has ever built a loyal customer base in any market understands it.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  59. EW10 – You cannot let facts get in the way of Petey’s pollution. He is servicing Teh Narrative.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  60. #58 JD: Hi, JD!

    Oh, I know. But I think he might actually believe some of that crap he spews.

    So I denounce myself for pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes! (And think Dunphy’s post above purrrfeckly timed.)

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  61. ok sure. Baracky is a dirty opportunistic socialist but I’m not wholly unseducible. Maybe I won’t get on board but I can grudgingly respect something elegantly marketed what has a vision and a coherence and a compelling elevator pitch. But there’s none of that in Baracky’s frantic gawky rape of our little treasury. There’s no vision. There’s nothing grand of purpose. It’s just ugly and grasping and nakedly contemptuous of the people it purports to serve. Over half of it is hey … you. Poor person. Here’s the deal. You can has monies. Why? Cause we know how you tick, pitiful poor person, and what you will do is run right out and spend it. What? Oh. Spend it on whatever. We don’t care. Oh and hey. Here’s some extra food stamps. You like that, right? Sure you do it’s like Christmas. Get some Ho-Hos. Have a steak. Whatever. All you gotta do is give us a little uptick in the quarterly GDP that we can get Jeannine Aversa to ooh and ahh at. We have an understanding? Ok now go away.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  62. As a few others have noted, Obama over the past several days at least could have gathered top Democrats and Republicans together at the White House and, if you will, forced them to negotiate with one another, with his performing the role of moderator. But that’s assuming he really wanted to be — or wants to be — bipartisan. Instead, he’s met in private with some leading Republicans, which is fine, and several weeks ago even schmoozed with some major conservative columnists/commentators, which is fine again.

    But I now suspect such meetings weren’t just so much an example of window dressing as much as they were a case of hubris and ego on his part, a belief that his magnetic personality and charm — the specialness of his being “The One” — would make his opponents swoon and bow before his feet.

    Bleech.

    Mark (411533)

  63. Today’s Barron’s doesn’t seem to agree with Peter’s distorted view of history either:

    CONTRARY TO A VIEW POPULARIZED DURING THE 2008 presidential election season, the current economic crisis was not the result of deregulation.

    The Bush administration made many mistakes, but deregulation was not one of them.

    Not only was there no major deregulation passed during the past eight years, but the Bush administration and a Republican Congress approved the most sweeping financial-market regulation in decades.

    The bipartisan Sarbanes-Oxley Act was enacted in 2002 to prevent corporate fraud and restore investor confidence after the collapse of Enron and WorldCom. It failed to prevent the accounting fraud and influence-peddling scandals at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And even after those scandals were widely understood, regulators sent Fannie and Freddie back into the market to continue buying subprime loans, lending and borrowing with implied taxpayer backing.

    Across the government, the Bush administration supported new regulations that added almost 1,000 pages a year to the Federal Register, nearly a record. If this is insufficient regulation, it’s hard to imagine a scope that would be effective……..

    http://online.barrons.com/article_email/SB123396551669058895-lMyQjAxMDI5MzAzNzkwNjc1Wj.html

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  64. Hurray! Now thats what am talking about! About time. wwwooooooooooohoooo!!

    High five, Emperor7.

    (Lovey??)

    Comment by Peter — 2/7/2009 @ 4:25 pm

    And we now have the camel-molesters’ opinion, too.

    nk (a12124)

  65. Daleyrocks – Only an unrepentant racist could have written that comment.

    JD (fb1fc9)

  66. Peter’s economic ignorance is reaching legendary heights.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. JD – Homophobe.

    nk – May the fleas of a thousand camels fly up the Emperor’s pooter.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  68. Achmed will pay her extra for that.

    nk (a12124)

  69. The Bush administration made many mistakes, but deregulation was not one of them.

    No, that’s not true. In retrospect, the SEC’s deregulation of the net capital rule in 2004, enabling investment banking firms to increase their leverage from 12-to-1 to 40-to-1,was a colossal mistake. The Wall Street cowboys made so many dumb big bets that all five public investment banking firms either went out of business (Lehman Brothers) were merged (Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch) or left the business by getting a bank charter (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley).

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  70. Well it’s not like the CATO institute doesn’t have an agenda, is it?

    The clip I’m talking about is not from the Cato Institute. It was from Kudlow’s show–yes, the righties were mocking him!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfascZSTU4o

    Patricia (89cb84)

  71. That’s a bit glib kind of isn’t it, Mr. Data Office? Here let’s look at this thinger here.

    In line with new capital adequacy standards coming into force soon under Europe’s Basel accords, brokerages granted CSE status would be able to use in-house, risk-measuring computer models to figure how much net capital they need to set aside. Under Basel standards, some institutions could soon be cutting their net capital by as much as 50 percent. But the SEC’s new CSE rule added a $5-billion floor to the Basel model, reducing the likely level of reductions to 20 to 30 percent.

    I read that as saying the stupid Europe people decided to unilaterally allow their bank type things to keep less money on hand to cover for stuff they owed. So the U.S. had to have looked at that and said crap, now those stupid Europe people will have a competitive advantage over our bank type things. Ok we need to do something. So what they did is sort of follow along but tried to actually make U.S. standards a bit more stringent than the stupid Europe people’s ones.

    So maybe it was a bad idea but it was the stupid Europe people what were the instigators. I think you’re being a little judgey is all. The SEC wasn’t being all madcap or anything. They weren’t being zany. It was just an oops.

    The New York Times suppresses that part cause they’re dirty socialists what lie.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  72. Those brokerages did use in-house, risk-measuring computer models to figure how much net capital they needed to set aside, but they only worked for so long. They obviously indulged their temptation to misprice risk, because the bigger the risk, the bigger the bonus.

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  73. Well sure but mostly my point is if we can blame the stupid Europeans I say let’s do it.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  74. Those dirty socialist Europeans are responsible for a lot of problems in the world and the Democrats admire them, so I agree we should blame them at every opportunity.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  75. #74 daleyrocks: So then, I denounce myself for not denouncing the Euroweenies earlier.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  76. I’m so dirty, dirty, dirty.

    Filthy…

    Scandinavian dirty…

    European dirty…

    FOREIGNER dirty…

    I must really, really disgust daleyrocks.

    How can he stand it?

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  77. oh. Sorry Mr. Vobiscum. Here’s a nice socialist song what I listen to sometimes. You will like it I hope.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  78. Still waiting for that long list of successful government spending stimulus plans.

    Perfect Sense (0922fa)

  79. only $5652 per taxpayer

    .

    Considering the latest jobless figures just out that number of taxpayers is quickly dwindling so you can up that figure of $5652 quite a bit.

    brett (afbffb)

  80. Stimulus plans that worked?

    Never. Ever.

    That’s why we’re STILL suffering under the Great Depression.

    Never recovered from it, because stimulus spending NEVER works.

    Got that?

    Hax Vobiscum (edacf7)

  81. Actually, it was the aftermath of WWII that ended the Depression. We won, our factories were the most streamlined in the world, and ready to pump out products domestically and around the globe. Our merchant fleet was large and modern. We were the industrial power because most every other industrialized nation had been decimated by bombing or lack of raw materials. The useful govt stimulus at that time was the GI Bill which kept the returning soldiers off the unemployment lines while also providing a new supply of educated workers. Take a look at any long term stock chart. The time line is pretty easy to see.

    The Depression era govt spending did help keep people alive and clothed, but it never brought significant growth in commerce and industry during the time between the 1929 and WWII. There’s no point in discussing whether govt spending will solve the current malaise. Everyone has their opinion, but the proof will have to wait until this is played out. I have my strategy in place. Good luck to all.

    allan (ad9bc3)

  82. That would be $5652 per taxpayer + interest.

    Rich (7b0289)

  83. Never recovered from it, because stimulus spending NEVER works.

    Got that?

    Not paying attention in class again, because it certainly wasn’t “stimulus spending” that closed out the Great Depression. In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise.

    But it’s looking like we’ll get a front row seat this time to see first hand.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  84. No, the problem for me is that human greed is so self-serving and self-blinding that no one begins to even understand anymore how deeply they are screwing not only themselves, but the whole country, even people who stay away from unethical business practices or just want to save their money.

    What about the greed of people who want to vote themselves a trillion dollars of new spending? Or the people who want to be on the receiving end of that spending?

    Doesn’t it count as greed for someone to demand government build them a dog park with somebody else’s money?

    Oh, and what about the greed of people who demanded they be eligible for mortgages even though they could never repay them? Or the greed of the people who forced those loans to be made?

    The most pernicious form of greed is the greed that cloaks itself as doing good for other people. And, frankly, that’s what disgusts me about the modern left: they condemn “greed” while bellying up to the trough of other peoples’ wealth.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  85. Rob, you said it all. I have no way of understanding an Obama voter who isn’t a) racially involved or b) young and ignorant. Peter’s description of greed and capitalism (or wealthy people or the GOP) is the exact description of Obama’s scheming ways to a T. It’s impossible to understand half the country, not because they voted D but because they don’t connect the dots: Obama=Chicago=Acorn=Soros=Blago=Rezko=Ayers=Wright=Farrakhan. Unlike another liberal poster who is lucky enough to post here, Peter is well-spoken and articulate. (Shout-out to censored blogs, i.e. HuffPo.) I don’t understand how he can block out vast amounts of information.

    No, the problem for me is that human greed is so self-serving and self-blinding that no one begins to even understand anymore how deeply they are screwing not only themselves, but the whole country, even people who stay away from unethical business practices or just want to save their money.

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)

  86. If World War II ended the Great Depression, are you saying that the solution to current economic distress is not a stimulus bill, but to bomb Germany and Japan instead?

    Official Internet Data Office (6eae5c)

  87. When I read pronouncements from Mount Obama these days I gain confidence in The One. He’s already figured out who caused the problem – Bush – and what didn’t work – Bush – and who’s a big meanie – Bush. Once he puts his fine analytical mind on the solutions they’ll tumble just as easily.

    Get a clue, O. You can’t bring the country together when you’re constantly whining that the previous guy is ruining your career.

    EBJ (437cb7)

  88. Government spending did stop the Great Depression. But it was WWII spending. But I can see how O might think harking back to FDR a winning PR strategy. But can the MSM keep the lid on the fact that five years into FDR’s new deal unemployment was over 20%?

    Thanks, 52%ers!

    EBJ (437cb7)

  89. When people say it will cost $? per person for this bill, is that a one time only payment? Does payment come from everyone in the USA, illegals, non-tax paying individuals as well as the 138 million taxpayers?

    Judith (76ca0a)

  90. The problem is not just that FDR’s attempts to takeover the economy did not end the Great Depression but that the Depression lasted for years longer in the US than the rest of the industrialized world because of FDR’s disasterous programs.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  91. The most pernicious form of greed is the greed that cloaks itself as doing good for other people. And, frankly, that’s what disgusts me about the modern left: they condemn “greed” while bellying up to the trough of other peoples’ wealth.

    “There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as caring and sensitive because he wants to expand the government’s charitable programs is merely saying that he is willing to do good with other people’s money. Well, who isn’t? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he will do good with his own money— if a gun is held to his head. “–PJ O’Rourke

    Another Chris (a3bb8f)

  92. Judith, the money will be endless: Taxpayers and states will be further weakened, thus the path for big government to step in and socialize. Time will prove Obama as a complete nightmare for this country (together with a same-party Congress).

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)

  93. Two weeks seems to have done the trick really.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  94. racially involved

    nice way to put it. I hadn’t heard that before. Inoffensive yet just a touch enough condescending to usefully communicate an idea I think.

    happyfeet (4eacbc)

  95. At least ACORN will get 5.5 billion in order to fight all these lawsuits coming from their endemic voter fraud, all the while committing massive new voter fraud to keep the liberals in power and to bring more socialists to power. We can celebrate that part of the stimulus bill.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  96. I must really, really disgust daleyrocks.

    I can’t answer that question, but your overweening faux – intellectualism has been exposed too many times to count at this point. You remind one of the infamous fop James Wolcott over at Vanity Fair, who harbors a secret obsession with conservatives in general, and allows said obsessions to manifest themselves in inane prattle and an extreme overusage of strawmen.

    BTW, you don’t happen to own an ocelot named Whiskers, do you?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  97. “I must really, really disgust daleyrocks.”

    Hax – You give yourself way way too much credit. It’s merely a question of mind over matter. I don’t mind you because you don’t matter. You are just polluting one of my favorite blogs with nonsense.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  98. Olympia Snowe contact info: Phone: (202) 224-5344
    Toll Free: (800) 432-1599
    Fax: (202) 224-1946

    Susan Collins contact info: DC Office Information
    413 Dirksen Senate Office Building
    Washington, DC 20510
    Phone: (202) 224-2523
    Fax: (202) 224-2693

    Arlen Specter contact information: DC Address: The Honorable Arlen Specter
    United States Senate
    711 Hart Senate Office Building
    Washington, D.C. 20510-3802
    DC Phone: 202-224-4254
    DC Fax: 202-228-1229

    Remember be respectful. Be polite. Be firm. VOTE NO ON THIS STIMULUS!

    Joe (17aeff)

  99. If World War II ended the Great Depression, are you saying that the solution to current economic distress is not a stimulus bill, but to bomb Germany and Japan instead?

    Comment by Official Internet Data Office

    There actually is a semi-serious suggestion that a war with Iran would do it. The principle reason, I believe, why this and all Keynesian remedies will not work is because, in 1939, the US was underemployed and had lots of vacant capacity for manufacturing. Those two factors fit the Keynes theory perfectly and he wrote his book with that situation in mind.

    Our present economy, for better or worse, is different. It is a service economy with global trade a major component. We have a large, uneducated underclass that will not respond to any stimulus except by spending welfare money. What we need is a stimulus to the small business model that generates most new jobs in this economy. The old industrial model is dead; the auto industry shows that. The transplant auto makers have a different model with automation and quality circles that use workers with very different skills than the traditional union worker.

    Our education system has let us down and there is no prospect of help in this bill. For example, Milwaukee has 15 vacant schools and a declining public school population. Nonetheless, they get $85 million for schools that is specifically banned from use by the voucher schools that are enrolling more and more students.

    The bill is brain dead and will just create more debt.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  100. The bill is brain dead and will just create more debt.

    It will also give government and its hangers-on more power. That’s the real goal, not the debt.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  101. Thanks happy feet.

    I think the media is indulging in a weird form of racial profiling. It’s sort of patronizing, considering so many accomplished minorities made it long before Obama. I guess growing up in a Blue state, I never got close to anything but ‘equality for all.’ Everyone is equal. Minorities are special.

    The work world has shown me the hard bias of AA hiring.

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)

  102. The cato institute, which is opposed to things like roads and highways and maybe even fire departments, is giving us economic advice.

    imdw (803b85)

  103. Got hyperbole?

    Like, better the Cato Institute than a bunch of pocket lining socialistic Muslim-lovers now in office.

    See how your subtle use of artful exaggeration looks?

    Eric Blair (1aa50b)

  104. “Got hyperbole?”

    Indeed. They are libertarians.

    imdw (6b47cf)

  105. According to the CBO, the stimulus bill will actually hurt the economy in the long run. However, there is the possibility it will stimulate illegal immigration. In addition to providing up to 300 thousand construction jobs for illegal aliens, the bill will bail out irresponsible states like California. This will allow them to avoid dealing with one of the primary reasons they have a budget deficit. That reason is the extensive and expensive social net they have extended to illegal immigrants. Obama’s stimulus will stimulate illegal immigration

    The Intellectual Redneck (2c07a1)

  106. Indeed. They are libertarians.

    Gosh, who knew?

    Dmac (49b16c)

  107. a bunch of pocket lining socialistic Muslim-lovers

    Hey, I think that could fit nicely on his podium!

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)

  108. Yes, we can!, Vermont Neighbor!

    Eric Blair (cc9718)

  109. I want him gone by January ’17, preferably earlier. He can take all the O keys. Just exit and get out. : )

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)

  110. The list of economists signing their names on some vague statement is hysterical. It reminds me of something. um. oh yeah, of the list of climate scientists (which expanded) who signed on to the “global warming is real” vague statement. They were mocked as belonging to a “religion” based on models. Does this mean that all these economists also belong to a religion? Friedmanians? Freidmaniacs? Freedies? Solvent Church of Friedman?
    Are we in for a decade of economic religious wars with politicians executing each economic plan only halfway so that even if a plan might have worked it definitely won’t work once passing through the hallowed halls of Congress?

    EdWood (ef5e2c)

  111. I think the ad signed by 200 economists had weight. I was stunned the NY Times took the money to publish that thing against dear leader. Just goes to show the whores needed money.

    What a tragedy we’re facing. My heart is broken with what’s about to unfold. God damn anyone who supported this hustler.

    Vermont Neighbor (ab0837)


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