Patterico's Pontifications

11/12/2008

L.A. Times on Obama and Race

Filed under: Dog Trainer,General,Race — Patterico @ 6:47 am

The L.A. Times has an article about blacks worrying that people will think racism is dead just because Barack Obama was elected President.

Hakeem Holloway may be a classically trained musician who has played with orchestras around the world, but when he crosses an L.A. city street wearing his typical uniform of jeans and a hoodie, white women have been known to eye him, a black man, and clutch their purses more tightly to their sides.

Frank Gilliam, the dean of UCLA’s School of Public Affairs, sometimes flies first class. When he does, white passengers often ask Gilliam, who is black, if he’s a record producer — if they talk to him at all.

“If they talk to him at all.” So am I now a racist if I don’t talk to someone on a plane?

I can’t afford to pay for first class and I don’t like talking to people on planes. But the next time I’m flying coach, I’ll remember that Frank Gilliam may be up in first class, seething that nobody is talking to him. Maybe I’ll go try to talk to him myself — that is, until the stewardess tells me to go to the back of the plane where I belong.

Do people really “often” ask him if he’s a record producer? Often? Really?

And this guy who wears the hoodies around and watches white women to see how tightly they clutch their purses? I don’t know. Maybe it’s true that white women clutch their purses more tightly. But it’s maybe also true that he is looking very carefully for that sort of thing. I would think how tightly women are clutching their purses is sort of a tough thing to gauge. Do women clutch their purses when I’m around? I don’t know; I don’t look. Would they if I were wearing a hoodie with the hood up? I don’t know; I don’t own a hoodie.

But I do handle a lot of cases where people are robbed by folks in hoodies.

There’s plenty of racism in this country and we’d be fools to deny it. But as this article makes clear, there are also plenty of perceptions of racism that may go beyond the reality.

Holloway, a 31-year-old double bassist with a master’s in music performance from USC, says one problem for African Americans is that success often blinds people to color — in the wrong way.

“We have plenty of black comedians, actors, athletes,” Holloway said. “And plenty of time, everybody regards those people as not black. Michael Jordan? ‘He’s not black. He’s Michael Jordan.’ Barack Obama? ‘He’s not black. He’s Barack Obama.’ “

Again, I don’t know how many people actually think Michael Jordan or Barack Obama aren’t black. Maybe they’re just thinking of Jordan and Obama as people first, instead of as black people first. If so, I’m not so sure that’s the “wrong way” of being colorblind.

The rest of the article similarly accepts at face value every story or perception of racism.

The election of Barack Obama is indeed a transformative moment in some ways. It shows that a black person can achieve the highest office in the land — meaning that if you have enough merit and try hard enough, any person can succeed.

Of course, it’s not going to wipe away racism, which still exists in this country. What this article makes clear is that even if racism were wiped away, the perception of racism would remain — and the L.A. Times would be there to accept that perception uncritically.

If Frank Gilliam should be so unfortunate as to sit in coach some day, he might end up next to me. If he’s going to determine that I’m a racist because I’m more interested in the latest Michael Connelly book than in talking to him, then I can’t see how the election of Barack Obama is going to fix that.

P.S. Can you imagine the L.A. Times uncritically repeating conservatives’ subjective perceptions that the media is biased against them — without a word of skepticism? Neither can I. Why do subjective perceptions of racism merit such unquestioning treatment?

188 Comments

  1. Just accept that you are racists. Period. End of discussion.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:50 am

  2. Charles Ogletree. NTTAWWT.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:51 am

  3. After reading this, I am pretty certain that I never want to talk to Frank Gilliam, no matter what color he is.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:51 am

  4. Perception is reality….

    But only for people who want their reality to be the one everyone else has to live…

    It’s called projection….

    And, JD, I condemn you for not wanting to talk to someone who already thinks you are a racist because you didn’t start the conversation first…

    Comment by reff (b996d9) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:56 am

  5. One of the reasons human survived a cruel world was our instincts to survive.

    I have seen as many black women clutch purses as whites — only difference is there are more white to observe.

    Maybe the LA Times should actually go a black neighborhood and spend some time observing behaviors as well as doing interview on Rodeo Drive or similar.

    Comment by Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:57 am

  6. Perfect post, Patterico.

    Comment by b (df882e) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:58 am

  7. Ahhh, the old-fashioned “anecdote article”.

    LATimes, surely you know that the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, right?

    Comment by Techie (62bc5d) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:58 am

  8. Clutch purses? Oh, clutch purses.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:59 am

  9. LATimes, surely you know that the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, right?

    Comment by Techie — 11/12/2008 @ 6:58 am

    Unlikely.

    Comment by CW Desiato (614aa7) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:00 am

  10. There are two racism problems, but the LA Times talked baout one while thinking it was talking about the other. Perceptions of racism are more widespread than actual racism and if the LA Times wanted to break into a different field, journalism, for instance, it would make an effort to note which one they are talking about.

    Comment by tim maguire (72f509) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:00 am

  11. I’ve just issued a new media directive, effective immediately.

    Before any of these slathering, race pimp sycophants with access to a printing press, radio microphone, or television camera, publish anything to do with race, they are required to properly define ‘racism’.

    As it stands now, the word is applied so broadly as to be impotent.

    So, unless and until these dipsticks can properly define the word, they will not be granted permission to publish on this subject.

    ~My work here is done.

    Comment by locomotivebreath1901 (89ba36) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:02 am

  12. This appears to be Hakeem. That way, if you’re ever sitting next to him in first class, you can strike up a conversation by asking him if he knew Biggie.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:04 am

  13. Racists. Consider yourselves denounced. Denounced and condemned. Denounced and condemned and shunned from polite society. Denounced and condemned and shunned from polite society and bad people.

    And, Kyoto.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:05 am

  14. Whoa #12. Is Hakeem the guy on the left? Or the one on the right? Both of ‘em look pretty scary to me, even without a hoodie.

    And Patterico, you really don’t own a hoodie? Really?

    Comment by BitterClinger (47b0b8) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:11 am

  15. Does his mouth not work?! Why is it that because someone does not strike up a conversation with him it is because of his race? Maybe he walks around, or sits in first class, with a scowl on his face. Maybe he had a giant slimy booger hanging out of his nose. Maybe he had a ginormous zit in the middle of his forehead. There are literally countless reasons why someone would not talk to this guy, none of them having anything to do with race. Since he chose to not strike up a conversation with a white person, Hispanic, or Asian in his little racist narrative, can we assume that he is racist towards those groups?

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:11 am

  16. I have noticed some women pull their jackets or sweaters together or cross their arms on their chests when I’m around. I don’t know why.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:12 am

  17. They are nk-ists.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:14 am

  18. Why is it that because someone does not strike up a conversation with him it is because of his race?

    Might be the chip on his shoulder.

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:18 am

  19. God, I hate it when they put crackers next to me.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:22 am

  20. Parrotist.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:34 am

  21. Even race hustler Jesse Jackson admits that he fears it when black youths are walking behind him. Of course those racist white teens don’t worry him.

    Our host needs to get with the program. He cannot be pulling that old Martin Luther King idea that people should be judged by the content of their character and not their color.

    If I see someone with a chip on their shoulder, giving out the evil eye, I too avoid them. My attitude becomes “Eff you”. And best to avoid eye contact too. Why do so many people have a sense of entitlement? Yes, it is a sterotype, but the New Yorkers here in moonbat Palm Beach county often have a huge chip and expect people to kiss their asses, as in they want to be served first or be catered to. The Haitian black immigrants I’ve met are the opposite, going out of their way to be helpful and at least present a happy facade of joy and joie de vivre.

    Have a couple of Connelly’s books yet to read. Can’t recall him being a leftard, but have stopped reading those who let their BDS live on in their books. LeCarre is one example. Wondering now if show 24 has gone completely over to the dark side. Will find out on the 23rd. Must be great to be able to move about LA in such speedy fashion.

    Comment by madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:38 am

  22. Dan, I denounce your anti-saltine attitude. You need to embrace more hope and change.

    Comment by Eric Blair (a723e0) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:40 am

  23. There’s plenty of racism in this country and we’d be fools to deny it. But as this article makes clear, there are also plenty of perceptions of racism that may go beyond the reality.

    Perfect, patterico.

    Comment by MayBee (e66885) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:41 am

  24. I’ll bet he starts to get tired of all the old liberal white ladies starting conversations with the Obama election.
    Maybe sit down next to him on the plane and say:
    I’ll bet you are so happy about Obama’s election.. 97% chance of being right after all.
    Racism or statistical probablity in conversation starters?

    I know a kenyan immigrant who feels the US is very racist. He’s 6’7″ and some white kids asked if he wanted to play basketball on their intramural team.
    Then another time when he crossed the street and went between two parked cars, the white lady who was putting something in her trunk got startled.
    I should send the Times his email so they can get his brooding, anti social, moody take on America… or they could interview his brother who actually did experience dumb frat boy racism and wrote it off as assholes behaving stupidly and moved on.

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:43 am

  25. From 7:02am above:
    So, unless and until these dipsticks can properly define the word, they will not be granted permission to publish on this subject.
    From Patterico’s original entry:
    1)There’s plenty of racism in this country and we’d be fools to deny it
    2)Of course, it’s not going to wipe away racism, which still exists in this country.
    Patterico stop being a dipstick and define the term before falling into the same trap as the author of the LA times article.
    I cringe when someone blabs that he disagrees with someone who claims their is racism because it is not defined and vague but always ends up saying “of course there is racism in this country but not in this case” Once that is said that just reinforces the sham.
    I wish I had an answer on how to stop this charade but Patterico’s statements above do not help the situation.

    Comment by Moose (dcacef) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:43 am

  26. I was asked the other day if I am an actress. Was that sexist or racist?

    I wonder if this guy considers that other people read stuff like this, and it makes them afraid to raise conversations with strangers on planes for fear they’ll say the wrong thing. I don’t want to feel like I have to pass a test.

    The world would be a better place if we all made the assumption other people have good intentions (except for the guy with the hoodie pulled up, black or white. him I’m keeping an eye on)

    Comment by MayBee (e66885) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:46 am

  27. I just got this e-mail from someone who hasn’t heard of George Soros or the AVS problem. Someone who works in the media.

    “Thanks for your note, but I must be missing something. Obama’s campaign had no single, large, corporate donor… the ‘grassroots’ campaign of using the internet (his chief came from Facebook) brought millions of folks into the fold, who had never participated in politics before.”

    Sigh.

    Mickey Mouse and Doodad Pro will probably be unsearchable soon, now that the head of Google is on BHo’s transition team. George Soros will probably get a search engine cleanup, too.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:48 am

  28. MayBee – That was sexist and racist. And prolly looks-ist, for someone having the audacity to think that a beautiful woman with brains would ever dream of being an actress.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:54 am

  29. But how can I be good by reason of not being a racist if there are no bad people by reason of being racists?

    Racism is the sacredest of the liberals’ divine bovines. If there are no racists, liberals lose a major part of their definition of themselves.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:57 am

  30. Wait until the Chose One fails to deliver as promised. Newly empowered blacks will fan the flames of racism by saying BHO is not a real black because he is from Africa and he is not authentic black because he is half white.

    Remember, it is swell for blacks to refer to each other using the “N” word but nobody else can.

    BHO will succeed or fail depending upon how fervently he pursues the entitlement mentality among the perptetually petulant and angry who carry outsized expectations.

    Comment by vet66 (d8da01) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:57 am

  31. From your last post:
    “P.S. There won’t be any FEC audit of Obama, by the way. But there will be one of McCain.”

    Now there is racism.

    Comment by Thomas (4d15b9) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:59 am

  32. “him I’m keeping an eye on”

    Good idea in LA but you’d need a 360 degree swivel mount in Portland and Seattle. You’d wind up looking like Linda Blair when it’s raining.

    Is the English, French German and Italian strong aversion to gypsies racism or recognition that a large proportion of the gypsy population lives by petty thievery? Gypsies aren’t a “race” but they are certainly viewed with distrust all across Europe. Undeserved?

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:00 am

  33. “But I do handle a lot of cases where people are robbed by folks in hoodies.” Listening to police scanners in my rust-belt burg, rarely does a night go by where there is no mention of “hoodies.”

    Comment by gp (72be5d) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:03 am

  34. Hakeem Holloway may be a classically trained musician who has played with orchestras around the world, but when he crosses an L.A. city street wearing his typical uniform of jeans and a hoodie, white women have been known to eye him, a black man, and clutch their purses more tightly to their sides.

    Dress like a thug, get perceived as a thug. Were he wearing a tie and jacket, or business casual, the perception would be different. Gee, I wonder why?

    Comment by Horatio (55069c) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:04 am

  35. Vermont Neighbor, I emailed Ace about that awhile back. I hope someone’s been taking screenshots. It will be interesting to see if anything’s scrubbed from Wayback.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:04 am

  36. I remember going to the gun range one day and next to me was this black woman bitterly clinging to her 9 mm. After a nice grouping she exclaimed, “Mmm…damn…I shot that (n-word) UP!!!”

    Comment by Jack Klompus (cf3660) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:06 am

  37. There won’t be any FEC audit of Obama, by the way. But there will be one of McCain.

    The slippery slope of auditing works in the Oily one’s favor: public funding gets a gov’t audit and at the candidate’s expense.

    Obama’s Doodad Pro-Mickey Mouse scam, which deserves scrutiny, falls under the private donation category. So he wins on technicality. On ethics or fairness … he would lose.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:07 am

  38. I don’t know, I’m still wondering what happened to the predicted race war. Wasn’t there supposed to be a race war if one race’s candidate lost?

    Oh – that was if Obama lost! My bad.

    Comment by Amphipolis (fdbc48) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:15 am

  39. The first question to ask is where is there not fear of the other?
    You can call it racism, or xenophobia, or ethnic solidarity, or ?
    But, every organized society experiences some form of bigotry –
    and slavery still exists in Africa and the Middle-East.
    If the LAT was a real, working newspaper, they wouldn’t have time for this crap what with all of the corruption at City Hall, and at County.

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:16 am

  40. Dan C., awesome. I remember you or someone mentioned that here the other day.

    It’s one thing to have supporters logically happy about the win. But to play dumb about Soros and the credit-card fraud is beyond biased. Beyond nuanced (!)

    Supporters clinging to the nonsense that $150 million was raised in one month in $10- and 20-dollar amounts… politically coy, at best. Too much kool-aid, more likely. White guilt.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:20 am

  41. Talk about irregularties in the report for the $150 million month. Just wait to see the last report, whenever it comes out. Guaranfuckingteed that it will be ignored by his PR firm, the MSM.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:21 am

  42. “On ethics or fairness … he would lose.”

    On the sheer stupidity of McCain-Feingold, McCain lost. Sucked in by the Pew misinformation campaign and spit out by Axelrod. Having learned nothing whatsoever, he was then sucked in once again by Pew on immigration (egged on by blind men sitting in their fouled “sanctuary” nests, extrapolating the failure of their community to the entire country).

    Proposing complex solutions for exaggerated or nonexistent problems has been a lefty specialty for quite some time. To not see this LAT piece as just another paving stone on the road to “reparations” is to miss the point of the misinformation campaign completely. Unfortunately, that’s common error that I expect to see repeated indefinitely. There just aren’t that many people capable of distinguishing symptom from disease and correctly identifying either.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:21 am

  43. What we need is a picture of Gilliam.

    Could be the guy likes to wear baggy hockey shirts and a dozen gold chains around his neck.

    Comment by PrestoPundit (ff5e16) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:24 am

  44. Obama’s election may go a long way to resolving racial problems in this country, perhaps by changing the paranoid and skeptical outlook of many black folks in this country such as those interviewed in the Times piece; folks that seem to have an uncanny knack for spotting racist behavior wherever they go…

    I don’t know their individual life experiences but I would think that Obama’s election, facilitated in part by the vast number of white folks that voted for him, should prove to them the same thing that we’re being told that it proves to the world; in America there is no caste system or second class citizens, and her promise and opportunity are truly open to all…

    Having said that, I believe that Obama’s election will in no way signal the end, or even denoument, of the identity politics charade; a connivance that is anathema to E Pluribus Unum and the whole notion of our republic…

    Lacking a common ethnicity, heritage, religion, all of the typical bonds that nation states enjoy, we must instead rely on our common currency, language, and the shared rights, equality of opportunity, and responsibilities enumerated in our social compact, the Constitution….

    By stressing our difference, rather than our shared cultural bonds, identity politics directly undermines our naturally diverse society; one where no one group dominates, but a social and cultural amalgam arises as each new immigrant group influences, but is assimilated, into our national identity. So, instead of the secular cultural hegemony that should be wrought by the very nature of our social compact, we instead suffer an adversarial national dissociative identity disorder.

    Comment by Bob (99fc1b) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:27 am

  45. First I learn that Barack Obama is black. Now Michael Jordan, too!!!
    By any chance, is Michael Jordan also Jewish and they haven’t told us yet?

    Comment by Ira (28a423) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:36 am

  46. What we need is a picture of Gilliam.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:37 am

  47. As predicted, the grievance – mongers cannot handle it when their chief grievance is de facto answered. So instead of admitting that the game is finally up, they just move on to something else – still waiting for the pickets outside of Dairy Queen protesting their usage of too much vanilla ice cream in their Blasts.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:11 am

  48. Interesting, nk.
    He offers courses on race and politics, African-American studies, electoral campaigns, political parties, and the presidency…
    He makes frequent public appearances on the NBC Nightly News, ABC Nightly News, CNN, C-Span, KNBC, KABC, KRON, and KPIX.

    It is in his financial interest to keep the issue of racism on the front burner.

    Comment by MayBee (e66885) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:15 am

  49. Comment by MayBee — 11/12/2008 @ 9:15 am

    A race-hustler with a PhD.
    Bigotry in a Black Robe!

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:20 am

  50. Racist blacks who voted (95%) for Hussein are looking for any excuse to remain the racist they proved they are. Even with slavery effectively eleminated in 1865 (other than black slavery to the democrats welfare system) they will always look for any excuse to claim ‘whitey’ owes them. I don’t remember a slave and sure never owned a slave. Time to give up the whine, along with the MD 20-20 and Ripple. You have lost your major ’cause’, Hussein took it away.

    Comment by Scrapiron (ce69ff) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:23 am

  51. People often ask me if I work in radio. They must think I’m ugly.

    I was going to give Gilliam the benefit of the doubt, being as this is the LAT. Then I saw from nk’s link that among other things, Gilliam is a consultant to the “Council on Foundations.” Yeah, and I have a “Certificate of Achievement for Outstanding Effort in the Field of Excellence.” That job must be pretty indefensible if even the title sounds phony-baloney.

    Comment by fat tony (cb087d) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:30 am

  52. Add it up, suckers: everyone’s always eyeing me apprehensively, + the poor service I get in restaurants, = I am black. Give me my money, Amerikkka!

    Comment by J. Peden (a56977) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:33 am

  53. So if I sat next to Gilliam on a plane and asked him if he makes his living discussing African American issues, would that be less racist than asking him if he’s a record producer?

    Comment by MayBee (e66885) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:34 am

  54. If we do move forward on the ridiculous reparations thing, wouldn’t we need to add / subtract the benefits that AA laws have provided over the years? I mean, we have our first AA- appointed president with no resume who’s basically put his buddies in the race-baiting business out of work.

    Or will Jesse Jackson just be Secretary of Reparations?

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:35 am

  55. On the sheer stupidity of McCain-Feingold, McCain lost. Sucked in by the Pew misinformation campaign and spit out by Axelrod. Having learned nothing whatsoever, he was then sucked in once again by Pew on immigration (egged on by blind men sitting in their fouled “sanctuary” nests, extrapolating the failure of their community to the entire country).

    You know, Rick. Sometimes McCain’s moves were unpredictable, odd or questionably RINO. Lady luck was not on his side here. But either way he’s certainly more an aisle-crosser than is the poseur.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:41 am

  56. “But either way he’s certainly more an aisle-crosser than is the poseur.”

    He sure is. It has earned him a picture next to “hoist by his own petard” in the encyclopedia. My point is that he was a sucker for the Pew play on “campaign finance reform” and he’s a sucker on immigration. How hard is “strengthen the Border Patrol, enforce existing laws and speed up deportation”?

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:09 am

  57. ^ You’re totally right. I went off point but your observations are accurate (and ironic).

    I don’t know if the newly organized GOP in ’12 will handle the border as it should be handled. (Okay, at least as mods and cons would like.) There are jobs to fill. Cheap labor’s not been a party-specific issue.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:22 am

  58. “Would they if I were wearing a hoodie with the hood up? I don’t know; I don’t own a hoodie.”

    Then STFU!
    I keep hearing people looking at the polls of black people’s feelings about America and dismissing it as paranoia. Or looking at the incidents that happen that make black people feel discriminated against and always, always trying to play it down. Sure, there’s no colored-only doors. But you still see an example of prejudiced behavior every day when you have dark skin. People DO pull their children and purses closer, people DO look at the ground as you pass, even when you’re smiling. Know how I know? Because they didn’t react that way when the white gentleman ahead of me passed them. Even in a button-up shirt the response is still the same. Basically, in order to get a fair shake I would have to be dressed head to toe in a full suit.. 24/7

    Comment by Cru (73d698) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:30 am

  59. Greetings:

    Several years ago, on one of my internet safaris, I came across the US Department of Justice’s web site. In looking over the murder statistics, I discovered that a white person had a 3-4 times the probability of being murdered by a black person than a black person had of being murdered by a white person. This was a straight murder to murder comparison, unadjusted for the disparity in the size of the groups in the overall population.

    Since that time, I have seen this observation mentioned just one time in the mainstream media and that was by Michael Barone in US News & World Report.

    Maybe Obama’s Granny was right to be afraid

    Comment by 11B40 (71cdf2) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:31 am

  60. Maybe this is what “Change we can believe in” really means — a change from occasionally talking about race to talking about it non-stop.

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:38 am

  61. So if I sat next to Gilliam on a plane and asked him if he makes his living discussing African American issues, would that be less racist than asking him if he’s a record producer?

    Considering the way he’s barbered and dressed, I’d ask him, “I like them big-breasted and light-skinned. Whatyougot and how much?”

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:43 am

  62. Mr. Gilliam should realize that it is not insulting to be thought a record producer. Now if they asked if he were a pimp, that would be insulting.

    Comment by dchamil (2bbdce) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:51 am

  63. nk – You are all sorts of wrong ;-)

    Icy – We already had the difficult national conversation about race. We have been stained by Original Sin, and are racists. I am not sure what was so difficult about that.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 10:51 am

  64. I don’t know if the newly organized GOP in ‘12 will handle the border as it should be handled.

    I trust that they won’t – much of big business is foursquare for a massive legalization bill, since they can keep more of their healthcare costs off the books, not to mention FICA and the like. If that sounds too cynical, I remember the companies who campaigned with Bush on that score. I never understood McCain’s support for that bill, since he’s not exactly been a big supporter of large businesses in the past.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:23 am

  65. This is not racisim: Attending a hate whitey church for 20 years.
    This is racism: Not talking to someone on a plane.

    I am confused.

    Comment by Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:26 am

  66. JD, it must be time for The Reverend Wright hour — a national broadcast to follow 60 Minutes in prime-time every Sunday night.

    Get us all a li’l bit of that old-time re-edumacation!

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:28 am

  67. #65 Hope not ICY,

    But I’m also glad we don’t have to endure the John Hagee hour.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:34 am

  68. There goes Oiram comparing apples to yaks.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:49 am

  69. Dmac,

    Have you actually looked at the demographic ‘pipeline’ and considered the implications of the size of the entrance cohort in comparison to the exit cohort? Have you considered the impact that Obama’s Progressive Baby Killer Brigades have had and are having in reducing the number of individuals necessary to fill the 75% of all jobs for which no college degree or advanced training is necessary?

    Because I can guarantee you that manpower planners in large firms have. It isn’t necessarily a matter of cost at all. If the bodies aren’t available to fill the slots (and within two years they’re not going to be), what, precisely, are large scale employers of low skill workers supposed to do?

    Here is the projection synopsis. There is another, more detailed analysis available at the BLS site for anyone who cares to do a little searching.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:51 am

  70. John Hagee already has a show. Open your mind and watch it sometime.

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:54 am

  71. 2 4 6 8

    We don’t want to assimilate!

    Yo! Where’s my slice of your pie, bitches?

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:57 am

  72. Pie is on hold, daley, and you will not be getting pie, they will be taking some of yours. They are still working out the details on the free gas and mortgage payments.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:01 pm

  73. #67 Not comparing JD, just glad not to see both have an hour after 60 minutes.

    #69 I have ICY,

    But sorry, I couldn’t really get passed the following lunacy:

    “I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are—were recipients of the judgment of God for that.”

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:02 pm

  74. Good, Oiram, because your fellow travelers that tried to make that comparison nearly made my head explode.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:06 pm

  75. “I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are—were recipients of the judgment of God for that.”

    Sounds very Old Testament, doesn’t it?
    Is the OT wrong?

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:13 pm

  76. #74 Old Testement, new Testament, I could care less.

    Nonsensically in todays times.

    Anyone who says that to his followers does not have my ear.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:16 pm

  77. Comment by Oiram — 11/12/2008 @ 12:16 pm

    Which is why you will never be confused with someone with religious convictions.

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:21 pm

  78. “Anyone who says that to his followers does not have my ear.”

    That means you aren’t his follower and he wasn’t saying it to you :)

    He is free to believe what he wants as we are free to believe he’s an idiot.

    Comment by Lord Nazh (899dce) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:31 pm

  79. “Anyone who says that to his followers does not have my ear.”

    Oiram – How about the following:

    “Nationalism provided that history, an unambiguous morality tale that was easily communicated and easily grasped. A steady attack on the white race, the constant recitation of black people’s brutal experience in this country, served as the ballast that could prevent the ideas of personal and communal responsibility from tipping into an ocean of despair. Yes, the nationalist would say, whites are responsible for your sorry state, not any inherent flaws in you. In fact, whites are so heartless and devious that we can no longer expect anything from them. The self-loathing you feel, what keeps you drinking or thieving, is planted by them. Rid them from your mind and find your true power liberated. Rise up, ye mighty race!”

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:31 pm

  80. Have you actually looked at the demographic ‘pipeline’ and considered the implications of the size of the entrance cohort in comparison to the exit cohort?

    I have, and thank you for that link – haven’t read that one previously. But you may have missed my point (I did not fully detail it, for purposes of brevity). While there’s no question that our country will need a large influx of new workers (including immigrants) over the next 50 years, the devil is in the details.

    http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html

    For truly comprehensive immigration reform to pass, there must be a clear path for all immigrants to follow, regardless of their country of origin. As things stand at present, it’s far more difficult for an Eastern European to get a green card in comparison to someone swimming across the Rio Grande and working illegally here. There’s an element of fairness that’s not being addressed in this debate, along with the reality that we are the only major Western country with an unsecured border at present. There is also the little matter of new generations of some immigrant groups not assimilating as easily as previous ones, due to the matter of being able to function at a subsistence level without having to learn fluency of the English language. Until these concerns are dealt with openly in this debate, a true reform bill will not pass without a permanent resistance from a majority of the populace.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:32 pm

  81. Hey, Oiram — If Obama ever says anything that you consider to be nonsensical (for instance, a trillion dollars in new spending while simultaneously balancing the budget), will you disavow him as hastily as you have Pastor Hagee? And how convenient that you mentioned the one issue for which he gained mainstream notoriety — something which did not require you to actually watch his show at all.

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:34 pm

  82. #78 Very good daley, you figured out that Jeremiah Wright does not have my ear either.

    You deserve a cookie.

    Just so you know:

    McCain and Obama both had my ears.

    Get my point?

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:40 pm

  83. Dmac,

    You’re correct. I did not follow your point as presented in the subsequent comment. I agree with your contention but I don’t believe we’re going to see any “open dealing” concerning anything for the next four years.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:40 pm

  84. Hey ICY, about as nonsensical as not raising taxes during war time.

    Yeah, your right it is convenient that I mention Hagee’s mainstream notoriety quote.

    I disagree with him on a lot more than that though, but not enough room on my monitor here.

    Same as Wright.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:46 pm

  85. McCain and Obama both had my ears.

    It’s ok, TNWWT.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:46 pm

  86. And I thought Jack Slade was the only one who collected ears…

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:53 pm

  87. Here’s an idea: cut spending and don’t raise taxes . . . EVER, at any time.

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:55 pm

  88. BTW, nice cop-out on Hagee. All you know is the talking point.

    Comment by Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/12/2008 @ 12:56 pm

  89. Comment by Icy Truth — 11/12/2008 @ 12:56 pm

    What else would you expect, Icy.
    This is the Cliff-notes generation.

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:03 pm

  90. “#78 Very good daley, you figured out that Jeremiah Wright does not have my ear either.”

    Oiram – That’s Obama.

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:04 pm

  91. #89 “Had” you mean Daley. “Had” it’s past tense.

    Or were you not paying attention?

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:07 pm

  92. #87 Look who’s talking point ICY. ;)

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:08 pm

  93. “Or were you not paying attention?”

    Oiram – Huh? I cut and pasted your text.

    The long quote I pasted was from Obama, not Wright, or weren’t you paying attention.

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:11 pm

  94. #87 Look who’s talking point ICY.

    Is that English?

    Comment by bonhomme (d737be) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:12 pm

  95. Here’s an idea: cut spending and don’t raise taxes . . . EVER, at any time.

    Comment by Icy Truth — 11/12/2008 @ 12:55 pm

    Even during war time? How do we pay for the extra trillion this war is costing us?

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:17 pm

  96. Instead of all this arguing about race and what blacks need/want, why not just surrender and agree to whatever the race extortionists desire? The Jesse Jackson family seems to have done quite well as members of the oppressed minority. No problemo for Jesse to refer to Hymietown or knock up his business subordinate while counseling his own potus on extra-marital sex.

    So let’s decide who of those lacking pallor deserve the race reparations? Do all those recent transplants from Africa or Caribbean count? How about Obama, whose own trashy mom was American albeit Causcasian?

    Where is the Obama stock market honeymoon? I have nothing in the stock market. I don’t know how well my Pa. state employees pension fund is doing lately, but they were up 17% last year. So you greedy, evil, racist Rethuglicans are finding out that to the victors belong the spolis? How will mass job layoffs affect the underclass (humble blacks and white trash)? Where do the Obamaa have their own monies invested and how will his policies impact them? Or supporters like Oprah and the Hollywood glitterati? Is Noam Chomsky pleased with the markets melting down? I understand he and Soros want socialism but actually invest like capitalists? What hand has Soros been playing in the current mess? How much money did he actually funnel to O!s campaign? Just rhetorical because I’m sure the O-fellating media doesn’t give a rat’s ass about honesty and fair play. Will joker Stuart Smiley be allowed to steal that US Senate race in Minn.? Nice that late blocks of votes come in for him, but no one else’s numbers change, eh? Powerpoint has a nice series aboutit and the head up Obama’s rectum media doth not care. Nor the so-called US Justice Dept. apparently.

    Comment by madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:20 pm

  97. #93 Sorry about the lack of English there. See my good man bonhomme, I was using a play on words, a little brevity if you will, pointing out that ICY loves to wave the “talking points” card at me while he has his share of “talking points” cards in his own deck.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:21 pm

  98. I read books and wear headphones on airplanes because I do not want to talk to anyone. My favorite flights were on nearly empty planes. That does not happen anymore…I’ve sat in First Class twice. They never talk to each other. These complainers are the Grievance Committee that will never die.

    Comment by Peg C. (48175e) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:26 pm

  99. nonsensical (for instance, a trillion dollars in new spending while simultaneously balancing the budget

    Don’t sell him short, he promised net spending cuts, not just a balanced budget.

    not raising taxes during war time.

    Why is this a Leftist canard? Specifically, why do the Leftist seem to think that raising tax rates will increase revenues, or that raising tax rates while the economy is slowing down will not hasten same?

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:28 pm

  100. Lol, so let me get this straight reducing spending and cutting taxes is a “talking point.” haha

    Comment by G (722480) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:29 pm

  101. G – To Baracky and chicken marsala, that is exactly right.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:33 pm

  102. I saw Oprah cry at Obama’ s glorious achievement in a racist world. If this woman isn’t compensated for her pain and suffering from the ills of many generations ago, there is no justice.

    Free Oprah now and give her the reparations money she deserves.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:43 pm

  103. #98 JD, until you can prove to me that Aliens or oil revenues in Iraq are paying for this war, the “canard” is on your end.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:46 pm

  104. #98, JD, Leftists know that raising taxes will result in reduced revenues. They just say it to confuse the issue and to mislead the uninformed.

    Comment by Ropelight (1dddd9) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:52 pm

  105. #102 JD that reminds me.

    You never answered my question posed back on November 6th.

    Small Business Taxes
    Take a look at the post and then scroll down to comment #198.

    Since we’re on the subject of taxes, I’m curious to know what your feelings were about those comments.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 1:55 pm

  106. #102 was non-responsive to the actual questions posed. Try again.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:01 pm

  107. In re. the other thread, until you can show us where Baracky actually defines makes, any assumption you make is simply a wish on your part.

    Back to #102. #98 JD, until you can prove to me that Aliens or oil revenues in Iraq are paying for this war, the “canard” is on your end.

    That has not one single solitary thing to do with what I asked you. Nothing. I asked why it is that you think that a war necessitates increasing tax rates. I asked why it is that you assume increased revenues for increased tax rates. I also asked why you discount the idea of raising taxes during an economic slowdown to be a bad thing.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:05 pm

  108. #107 JD, really?

    Once again, do you really need to be told by then Candidate Obama that a person’s $250,000 income is the amount made after expenses?

    “Income” JD “Income”.

    Please think this through.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:10 pm

  109. #106 I know that’s not what you asked me JD, but I needed a clarification on your ideas of what Obama’s tax plan is first.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:12 pm

  110. On taxes, I like how my boss opened up our conference call last week. “We’d like to congratulate our newest employee, Barack Obama, who now is the highest paid among us, won’t contribute anything to our company, infact, actively will work against our future growth and success as a small business.”

    Comment by G (722480) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:15 pm

  111. VN – Forget about freeing Oprah. I’m still waiting for some of that Free Tibet. Do you know where they’re handing that out?

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:26 pm

  112. Oiram – I think you misunderstand this, on purpose. I do not believe Baracky for one single solitary second about taxes. I do not believe that the ceiling will be at $250,000, or $200,000, or $150,000 or $120,000, depending on which day the campaign was talking and who was talking. He is going to redistribute wealth. Period. You can quibble about semantics from now until the cows come home but it will not make Baracky right on taxes, and it will not magically make his “plan” clearly defined. DRJ and others repeatedly showed you how makes has a variety of different meanings within this context, which you continue to ignore.

    #108 – Pure unadulterated drivel. My questions to you had nothing to do with Obama’s tax plan. I have a fundamental understanding of his tax “plan”. Cornhole those that actually pay income taxes.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:31 pm

  113. Democratic Tax Plan…
    Only the Rich will have their taxes increased.

    Democratic Dictionary…
    Rich: Anyone with a job.

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:35 pm

  114. See JD and anyone else listening, your need for explanation from Obama that his $250,000 tax plan represents after expenses only, tells me that you may have been mislead concerning past debates.

    For example way back when when we spoke of record profit earning by oil companies, you knew it was profit after expenses correct?

    Again sorry to harp JD, but this could of been Obama’s mistake in not clarifying enough. Perhaps he could of won by an even bigger landslide if your not alone.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:37 pm

  115. #104
    mariO (sorry, I’m dyslexic)

    I time traveled back to the thread you referred to and want to know…

    Is that an S-Corp?

    What are you defining as “overhead” and/or “expenses”?

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:37 pm

  116. 113. Oiram how stupid are you? Seriously? “Profit after expenses” hahah idiot. Profit is profit.

    Comment by G (722480) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:43 pm

  117. but I needed a clarification on your ideas of what Obama’s tax plan is first.

    No one can “clarify” his plan because he’s never laid it out completely in the first place. Just in the past week, his advisors have been floating all sorts of “changes” to his “announced” plans on basically everything, which is why so many are fearful of his true intentions.

    First rule of taxation regarding candidates – if they can’t rule anything out explicitly, get ready to bend over.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:47 pm

  118. I’m thinking Oiram is confused over “net” profits vs. profits.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:48 pm

  119. #111 Thanks JD, I don’t mind your feelings as long as you understand what Obama means by “$250,000, or $200,000, or $150,000 or $120,000″ (I was pretty clear on the amount Obama said).

    But at least you understand that whatever amount you think Obama told you, that it’s after expenses.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:48 pm

  120. #117 Your thinking wrong DMAC.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:48 pm

  121. Is that “net profits”, “net-net profits”, or “net-net-net profits”?

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:50 pm

  122. #114 StevenG

    When someone tells you they make $300,000, do you assume that they mean before expenses?

    I.E. Employees, Employees benefits, production cost etc?

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:51 pm

  123. Wow, you guys really need Obama to tell you that $250,000 does not mean gross profits.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:52 pm

  124. Gross and Net have different meanings out here on the West Coast – ask Art Buchwald about Hollywood Accounting.

    Comment by Another Drew (080b14) — 11/12/2008 @ 2:57 pm

  125. Well Friends,

    Let me just say that if your making one million dollars in gross profits, and your overhead is about 75 percent of that, and President Obama finds a way to tax you on the one million and not the $250,000………. I’ll start to consider him the Anti-Christ as well.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 3:11 pm

  126. 117 Your thinking wrong DMAC.

    OK, then tell me what the answer is.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/12/2008 @ 3:43 pm

  127. Patterico: There’s plenty of racism in this country and we’d be fools to deny it.

    Well then, call me a fool then. But how about you? You say there is plenty of racism in this country? Fine. Prove it.

    Comment by Ed (f06af4) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:00 pm

  128. Y’all are going to let an idiot steal a thread in broad daylight?

    What about a chat concerning Obama’s racism? He parked his smug ass in a pew and listended to racist spew for twenty years. No interest in that?

    His tax policy lies won’t be ripe for another couple of months. It’s not as if there will be any problem finding broken promises made by the clown – nor fools to defend him.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:09 pm

  129. His tax policy lies won’t be ripe for another couple of months. It’s not as if there will be any problem finding broken promises made by the clown – nor fools to defend him.

    Rick, while I share your views, after Hank Paulson’s announcments today, Obama will have plenty of cover by blaming the Bush administrations handling of the economy. You have to admit that the “bailout” has been nothing short of a disaster with no end in sight.

    Comment by Mossberg500 (9fd170) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:16 pm

  130. Mr Klompus wrote:

    I remember going to the gun range one day and next to me was this black woman bitterly clinging to her 9 mm. After a nice grouping she exclaimed, “Mmm…damn…I shot that (n-word) UP!!!”

    Clearly, clearly, the targets demonstrate racism themselves: always a black silhouette on a white or neutral background. Why don’t they have white silhouettes on black backgrounds, hmmm?

    Comment by The Dana in Pennsylvania (556f76) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:21 pm

  131. S-Corp “Owner Benefit” can be partially classified income and rest dividends … with the associated tax benefits of dividends. If Obama really want to screw small busines guys he would eliminate this.

    OT: Nice piece by NBC News on how crackers have gone out to buy guns because of Obama. Nice. Fair and Balanced.

    Comment by Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:25 pm

  132. Gun blogs have been bragging about it — yes, bragging — all this week. NBC is behind the curve.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:30 pm

  133. Mossberg500,

    Electing a commie has always had a deleterious effect upon stock markets in countries which have done so. I agree with you about where Obama will place the blame and the fact that Paulson owns part of the problem but “restoring investor confidence” with the inauguration of a commie in sight is a rather challenging task.

    As small business owners face the firing decisions forced upon them by the error of the electorate one might hope that they will consider Obama bumper stickers to be “Fire Me First” proclamations. Those being fired can just consider it to be an educational experience and expense.

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:30 pm

  134. P.S. I already have enough guns. I only bought a couple of boxes of fresh ammunition on election day. Because I live in a suburb of Chicago. (Truly. No sarcasm intended.)

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:32 pm

  135. You got it wrong. Embrace the term ‘racist’ — just like some gays embrace queer. After all, being ‘racist’ would make us fair of face folk just like our black brothers and sisters who voted 95% against McCain and in some states 90% plus against Hilary. Whites need to moblize as whites, or else we wont be 40% of California’s population, we will be 5%.

    Comment by stari_momak (67e4f0) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:34 pm

  136. Hmm!

    “I like black people just as much as they like me. No more, no less.”

    RACIST. (With apologies to JD.)

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:44 pm

  137. Comment by The Dana in Pennsylvania — 11/12/2008 @ 4:21 pm

    They do! Just look on the wall at the more than 2-dzn different types of targets a well-stocked range should offer.

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:44 pm

  138. For our friends on the left, racism must continue. We have outlawed racial discrimination in every venue that can even remotely be considered a public accommodation, we have pushed programs to give minorities edge points or bonuses in applications for schools or jobs, we have enacted “hate crimes” legislation, we have our friends on the left eliminating social opprobrium from the “seven dirty words,” but still recoiling from the “racial epithet,” [shameless blog plug alert!] and we have basically done everything within reasonable — and that’s stretching it — possibility in condemning or outlawing every sort of public act or statement which might indicate racial discrimination.

    So, what is left to do that the law and public policy are competent to do, assuming that thought crimes remain beyond legal sanction?

    That’s where Dr Gilliam’s article comes in. For our friends on the left, victimology must be kept alive, because victimology results in actual policy and programs, things which have a specific gain for the people who are the accredited victims.

    What government policy is there that can deal with the obvious and serious problem of white women clutching their purses a bit more tightly when they see Dr Gilliam in his “street cred threads?” While I assume — perhaps an unsafe action here — that Dr Gilliam won’t be able to sue (successfully) a wealthy white woman who visibly clutches in his presence for causing him severe emotional distress, as long as insidious, private racial “misgivings” can be alleged, even if they have no quantifiable direct effect, they serve as evidence of discrimination when there is any inequality of results discernible along racial lines. The government programs continue, and the government money flows in the direction the aggitators desire.

    Comment by The Dana in Pennsylvania (556f76) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:46 pm

  139. Comment by Rick Ballard — 11/12/2008 @ 4:30 pm

    DJIA down 411 today!

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:47 pm

  140. #138 “DJIA down 411 today!” Another Drew says with a grin :)

    Ahh yes, been listening to Rush and Hannity lately? Apparently so.

    Cracks me up. The Dow was on a slide Another Drew, with or without Obama. Or have you not been paying attention?

    Oh wait, maybe investors think like many here that Obama is going to tax small businesses making $250,000 in gross profits…….. fat chance they’re smarter than that.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:56 pm

  141. Let me just say that if your making one million dollars in gross profits, and your overhead is about 75 percent of that, and President Obama finds a way to tax you on the one million and not the $250,000………. I’ll start to consider him the Anti-Christ as well.

    Gross profits? Do you mean “gross revenues”?

    Comment by Steverino (db5760) — 11/12/2008 @ 4:58 pm

  142. Since Obama’s nomination at the DNC….
    9/1/08, market opened at 11546;
    11/12/08, market closed at 8283.

    Quote.com ….

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:06 pm

  143. Steverino,

    When you see someone saying “gross profits”, it means something that rhymes with “boron”.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:09 pm

  144. Our esteemed host wrote:

    I don’t own a hoodie.

    I do, but it gets cold in the winters in the Poconos, and I do work outside part of the day. The question is: why would anyone who lives in southern California need a hooded sweatshirt?

    Comment by The Dana in Pennsylvania (556f76) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:11 pm

  145. The market has lost more since O’s nomination, than it did from the first of the year up to his nomination.
    And yes, we are in a severe bear market, and my investments are down 25%, and I’m not happy about it – not even counting the drop in house value in the last 18-24 months.

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:11 pm

  146. When I was growing up, where I was growing up, a gray flannel hoodie under a denim jacket was a signal for gay. So I never got one either.

    Comment by nk (87c95e) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:14 pm

  147. Sorry about playing into the thread jack.

    Racism is big business.
    Seriously.
    Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the rest are employers for cryin out loud.
    ACORN would not exist.
    Black Studies would not exist.
    I could go on and on.

    Uncle Sugar will keep on paying as long as these folks keep screaming racism.
    I’m guessing the black “racism industry” is worth billions annual gross revenue… but zero net profit (like Hollywood)… oh wait…
    black racism is “non-profit”.
    Explains the First Class seats on the airline then

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:14 pm

  148. Mr. Gilliam, if I am ever seated next to you on a plane, please know ahead of time that as I quietly ignore you it has nothing to do with your color, your occupation, or your victimology.

    Rather I am pointedly ignoring you because I have learned that as a woman, striking up a conversation with a man can too easily be misperceived (again with perception) by said man as something more than just innocuous conversation and I really don’t care enough about you and your feelings to risk a very uncomfortable situation. Hence my nose in a book, my ipod, my pretending to sleep. I trust that you are mature of enough to understand this and that the world does not revolve around you Mr. Gilliam.

    I will not stereotypically assume you are a record producer if you will not stereotypically assume my ignoring you has anything to to do with the color of your skin. Deal?

    Comment by Dana (79a78b) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:32 pm

  149. Well then, call me a fool then. But how about you? You say there is plenty of racism in this country? Fine. Prove it.

    Since you asked so nicely . . . no. I have a feeling nothing I’d say would convince you anyway.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 11/12/2008 @ 5:56 pm

  150. I would only respond as Dennis Prager has noted:
    There is racism everywhere in the world.
    Is the United States a racist country? No!
    Is there racism within the United States? Yes!

    What is needed to stop racism in everyday life, is for each individual to stop engaging in racism.

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:04 pm

  151. The question is: why would anyone who lives in southern California need a hooded sweatshirt?

    Because sometimes it gets really cold here, like 60 degrees even!

    Comment by LYT (97de86) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:22 pm

  152. Yes, and then there are the blizzards with the driving sleet.
    Oh, the Humanity!

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:24 pm

  153. We have been stained by Original Sin, and are racists. I am not sure what was so difficult about that. Comment by JD — 11/12/2008 @ 10:51 am

    I agree the problem, JD, is when “they” think that only “we” have been stained with original sin; hence since they need no atonement, they don’t need mercy; having no mercy, nothing will be satisfactory for atonement “we” need. If the “we” included “them”, we’d be on an equal footing.

    “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”.
    Hopefully there are people that think Obama being elected means something good about race relations (given he was elected), and when Obama gets criticized they will remember it happens to all presidents.
    That said, anybody inclined to think that we were too racist of a country to elect an AA president may still think, “We have a token AA president, the rest of us still get treated as trash.” Most cities have many AA police officers, that doesn’t seem to help with community relations, though (maybe it would be worse, but that’s not much consolation).

    A serious note- when reparations were first discussed, the govt and we the people should have taken it seriously for descendants of lynchings and such in the early 1900′s. First of all we had already fought a war with hundreds of thousands dead, the loss of income, etc. of the families left without husband and father, and great destruction of the wealth that had been gained through slave labor. Second of all, wrongs done in the 1900′s were more likely to be documented and living relatives within one or two generations could be identified. You could really address the fact that “great-grandpa Jones” was killed unjustly.

    A humerous note- I always new Michael Jordan was African American, what surprised me was there was this guy named Larry Bird that was a great pro-basketball player and he was white.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:35 pm

  154. #144 Another Drew-
    Have no fear as O! does not want to alienate you Republicans just yet because he needs to be win in 2012.
    Look for some dandy bear market rallies. During the Crash and Depression of ’29-’32, Dow lost 89% of its value, but rallied at times and you could have profited 18% in 10/29, 48% in 4/30, 23% in 12/30, 27% 6/31, 35% 10/31 and 25% early ’32.
    The Nasdaq dropped 78% between 2000 and 2002. You could have made 35%-44% in three bear market rallies between 2000 and 2002. I guess the problem is choosing wisely and being quick about pulling the trigger. I’m one of those idiots who did the buy and hold thing for nearly two decades and got destroyed. Been in cash since Feb. and see what I think are great values, but the market doesn’t care about that apparently.
    Yes, real estate has been dandy. My area is down around 50% in a couple of years, but I was reading about a town in California where nearly every homeowner is under water as far as what they owe and what property is worth.
    Time for you people in rust belt to fill up on home fuel oil and gas? Obama does not want fossil fuels polluting algore’s carbon scam business. In the mid eighties here in Boca again. No need for any stinkin’ hoodies, but the local gangs wear them regardless. That and those goofy ass watch caps.

    Comment by madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:43 pm

  155. Comment by madmax333 — 11/12/2008 @ 6:43 pm

    Well, once the Homeland Security Corps gets up and running, I’m sure that they’ll crack down on deviate behavior such as hoodies, back-wards ball caps, and not tucking in your shirt-tails.

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:52 pm

  156. …and drooping drawers, too.

    Comment by Another Drew (5fedf0) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:53 pm

  157. Have no fear as O! does not want to alienate you Republicans just yet

    I’m glad we may still vote in 2012. Not sure if Obama is dreaming about a Presidential library someday in Kansas or Kenya or wherever the hell it is he’s from. I’m a little nervous this guy thinks he’s a lifer.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 6:58 pm

  158. “A serious note- when reparations were first discussed, the govt and we the people should have taken it seriously for descendants of lynchings and such in the early 1900’s.”

    Why not innocents hung by vigilantes in the Old West as well? Shoot, why not the X% of whites who suffer disproportionately due to the higher incidence of black on white crimes? Why not every white citizen for the disproportionate amount of tax money wasted from Johnson on in the Great War for Mediocrity? (or War on Poverty – upickem).

    Why not for me ’cause I’m not 6’10″ with a good jump shot?

    Comment by Rick Ballard (e3e91f) — 11/12/2008 @ 7:57 pm

  159. Where’s my slice of your pie?

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:03 pm

  160. For example way back when when we spoke of record profit earning by oil companies, you knew it was profit after expenses correct?

    When you say record profits, record revenues, etc … you are talking hard dollars, not percentages. Their percentage remains nearly constant, turning around 8-10% profit. Hardly record.

    Funny how you never talk about their record tax liabilities, and record tax payments.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:05 pm

  161. Mr. Gilliam, if I am ever seated next to you on a plane, please know ahead of time that as I quietly ignore you it has nothing to do with your color, your occupation, or your victimology. It is pretty much because you are an ass.

    Fixed that for you, Dana.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:05 pm

  162. ^ Heh.

    Right on, bro.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:06 pm

  163. Comment by daleyrocks @ 2:26 pm

    Agreed. Mo free, mo better!

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:07 pm

  164. You ain’t getting any pie daleyrocks. Michelle is going to be taking your pie, and giving it to someone that they have deemed to be more important than you.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:07 pm

  165. Its going to be a long 4 years …

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:08 pm

  166. God damn Obama.

    No malice, either. I mean that in a Jem-Wright sorta way.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (5ea336) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:11 pm

  167. JD – You told me about the pie earlier, but it’s the era of hopenchange. I thought I’d ask again to see if anything had changed.

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:23 pm

  168. “I trust that you are mature of enough to understand this and that the world does not revolve around you Mr. Gilliam.”

    Dana – How do you feel about that song “The Impossible Dream?”

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:25 pm

  169. daley – You can hope for change all you want, but you ain’t gettin’ any pie, at least not until you have completed the re-education camps, at which point you might be eligible for someone else’s pie.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:30 pm

  170. Comment by daleyrocks — 11/12/2008 @ 8:25 pm

    daley, with Hope and Change the new reality, I ask you, how can there even be an Impossible Dream?!

    Comment by Dana (79a78b) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:39 pm

  171. I dream of the day when our Leftist overlords no longer control the levers of power.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:42 pm

  172. Since we are already well off topic, doesn’t that interview with Rahm Emmanuel about the mandatory civilian defense courses kind of creep you out?

    There was a quote in there about everyone having a shared experience, either barracks or riding on a train, that just really creeped me out.

    On a lighter note, every time I hear his name, I think of Emanuelle on Taboo Island.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:45 pm

  173. JD – Was that Emanuelle II?

    Dana – On the other hand, hasn’t Mr. Gilliam just become one of our new overlords, so the world does in fact now revolve around him. Just sayin’.

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:52 pm

  174. JD – The sandwich scene. My girlfriend liked that one, IYKWIMAITTYD.

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:54 pm

  175. daleyrocks – Yes.

    I think it is fun that all of the people that in the past have railed about “teh man” just became “teh man”.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 8:57 pm

  176. __________________________________

    There’s plenty of racism in this country and we’d be fools to deny it.

    And there’s also plenty of simpleminded liberalism in this country too—-and a high percentage of people in the black community suffer from it—–and we’d be fools to deny it. And, generally, those infected by leftist bias tend to be noticeably disengenous, phony and even idiotic about quite a few sociological, cultural issues, including who or what is racist or not, who or what is bigoted or not.

    Comment by Mark (411533) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:21 pm

  177. In case any of you are doubting your racist bona fides, I shall remind you that the very nature of your being defines you as a racist.

    Comment by JD (94c827) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:23 pm

  178. Patterico: Since you asked so nicely . . . no. I have a feeling nothing I’d say would convince you anyway.

    I’m not asking you. I’m challenging you to stand by your own words. And if you can’t convince me, fine. Prove me wrong and prove to everyone here that America has plenty of racism. They are reasonable, even if I as you imply, am not.

    Or we can take another approach. I know you are a man protective of your honor. Well, you are a racist. You have plenty of racism in your mind, heart and actions.

    Now, is the onus on me to prove this?

    Comment by Ed (f06af4) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:30 pm

  179. Ed, plenty. So what?

    You are probably a bigot too so WTF?

    Comment by Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:33 pm

  180. Is 9:30 the designated moron check-in time?

    Comment by daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/12/2008 @ 9:38 pm

  181. Patterico made a claim with no supporting evidence. Ed called him on it. Patterico invoked argumentum ad hominem. Ed returned the favor via a hypothetical.

    my take:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeWF0LC3R2o

    Comment by Adriane (b8ecd8) — 11/12/2008 @ 11:39 pm

  182. #179, yeah, in the hypothetical I used to accuse Patterico, yeah, absolutely, the onus is on me to prove it. Can I? No, I can’t, which is my point.

    By the way, if this is Robert Rodriquez, the film maker, I’m a big fan of your work.

    #180, absolutely, I am a moron of long time standing. God bless me, my salvation is knowing my weaknesses. And they are many.

    #181, I spent the most time on your comment, mainly because I’m on a dial-up and viewing your Marvin Gaye song has been taking a long time. But I think you got a good handle on what I’m trying to say.

    Comment by Ed (3fec75) — 11/13/2008 @ 12:11 am

  183. Ed, you need to actually read Patterico’s many prior postings on this subject before issuing any self – described challenges that he must obey, according to your whims.

    Comment by Dmac (e30284) — 11/13/2008 @ 7:28 am

  184. Dmac, I’m a bit of a lurker. I have read more than just this one post of his.

    Comment by Ed (3fec75) — 11/13/2008 @ 7:55 am

  185. There is definitely racism in this country, we all should be able to agree on that. But there are also plenty of slanted stories like this one by the leftist illuminati media that try to put their own stamp on racism.

    Comment by Jeff (3cb047) — 11/13/2008 @ 8:44 am

  186. Cracks me up…………. you are all willing to blame Obama for the stock market plunge.

    Come to think of it……….
    Hey……. you know what?

    Let’s also start blaming Obama for the price of oil going down!

    Not the “Drill Baby, Drill!”.

    #2.35 cents here in California….. Thanks Obama!

    Recheck your logic folks.

    Comment by Oiram (983921) — 11/13/2008 @ 9:41 am

  187. Comment by Oiram — 11/13/2008 @ 9:41 am

    The price of oil futures reflect what traders believe will be the demand for oil in the future versus the known supply.
    Because of the economic outlook (a declining stock market is a leading indicator on economic activity), traders believe that there will be lower economic activity in the future, thereby depressing the demand for, and the price of, oil products.
    So, the market’s anticipation of a business-unfriendly Obama Administration has depressed the current price of oil futures, which sets the market price of oil products.
    Enjoy it while it lasts, since BHO earlier this year said he had no problem with $4-5/gl gasoline, it was just the abrupt run-up in the price that bothered him.
    Once the Wall-Street situation is resolved, we will see Administration/Congressional action that will ramp up the costs of oil products again.
    We have already seen a tip-of-the-hand in that they have said that they will overturn certain Bush-43 Executive Orders opening up areas of the Continental U.S. for oil exploration/extraction.
    Restricting potential supply will drive up prices, again.
    Imposing a carbon-tax will drive up prices, again.
    Declaring, for CAFE purposes, that CO2 is a poluttant and must be regulated as such, will drive up prices, again.
    We very well could look back in a few years to the days earlier this year of $4.50/gl gas as “the good old days”.

    You need to rethink your understanding of basic economics, and the ways in which a global economy works, for you seem to be lost in both areas.

    Comment by Another Drew (51839f) — 11/13/2008 @ 10:01 am

  188. Fancy that, women react badly to a man who is watching how they hold their purse.

    Gotta be racism, because there could be no other possible reason.

    Comment by Ronsonic (986aaf) — 11/13/2008 @ 10:04 am

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