Patterico's Pontifications

11/5/2008

Obama: A Flawed But Good Man Who Has Made Bad Decisions And Will Make More

Filed under: 2008 Election,General — Patterico @ 7:18 am



I have endured some criticism for saying that Barack Obama, with whom I disagree about almost everything, is a good man trying to do what he thinks is right for this country.

Some commenters have disagreed, citing Obama’s support for grisly forms of late-term abortion; his attendence of a church with a pastor who said anti-American things in some of his sermons; his relationship with unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers; his disturbingly close relationship with corrupt individuals such as Tony Rezko; his broken promises; and his many falsehoods about John McCain. They point to his campaign’s inappropriate use of the race card; his disabling of credit card verification checks; his minions’ attempts to silence free speech with threats; and much more.

There is something to all that, and I don’t think we should pretend these things didn’t happen, or give Obama a false halo. The fact is that John McCain did some things that weren’t too savory during this campaign as well, and as the saying goes, politics ain’t beanbag. Good men do bad things, and in the pursuit of ambition, they almost always do. Barack Obama is not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination.

What’s more, I think he will damage this country with bad policies. I’m not going to pretend otherwise. Inevitably, he is going to take actions that I think are disastrous, and somebody will come back and say: “Hey, Patterico! I thought you said Barack Obama was a good man!” Yes, but I never said he wasn’t going to do horrible things. It’s quite clear he will.

What’s more, there is no way in hell he is going to do away with the poisonous atmosphere in Washington, and anyone who thinks that he can is a fool. It will be amusing to watch him try.

But I make no apologies for saying he is a good man. He is my President. He is our President. And while he hasn’t always done good, I do believe he is fundamentally a good man and a patriot who wants to make this country a better place.

And let us not overlook the tremendous symbol we have in a black President. I am not convinced Obama will get us past racial strife, and indeed, I worry that the opposite may happen. I hope I’m wrong. But regardless of that, it is a very good thing that we can say that this country is willing to elect a black President. It shows that anyone can succeed in this country, regardless of race. Anyone.

We have to get past this idea that we have to personally demonize the other guy in order to fight his policies. We’ve said some spirited things about Obama in the heat of battle, and we’ve meant them. But he’s not evil. Let the Democrats be the party who demonizes the other side as evil.

Let us describe Barack Obama as a good but flawed man who is likely to do some very bad things to this country. But let us nevertheless wish him well, if not politically, then at least personally.

I think just the right tone was struck by guest blogger JRM in this open letter to Obama. If you haven’t read it, read it now.

215 Responses to “Obama: A Flawed But Good Man Who Has Made Bad Decisions And Will Make More”

  1. I see the stock market is not riding the Obama wave of glee.
    And in celebration of the Obama win Palestine fires 35 rockets into Israel,
    I wonder who’s side they think Obama is on!

    I am also looking forward to being called “racist” every time I criticize the President for the 4 years.

    ML (14488c)

  2. “I am not convinced Obama will get us past racial strife”

    I am also unconvinced he will reverse the Earth’s rotation.

    oneisnotprime (494091)

  3. I don’t disagree with you, Patterico. I was one of the first to say that Obama is no Clinton — Billy or Hillary.

    But I feel that I was let down by the good man I voted for in the last election. (The one I voted for in the election before only got 3% of the vote.) On my hot button issues, national security and abortion, I am sobbing bitterly with my Bible in one hand and my other arm around my gun cabinet.

    nk (95bfab)

  4. Your hopes, and those of JRM, are admirable.
    I have no such dreams.
    The modern Dem Party and particularly those who lead her, has not shown any propensity to not do things that ultimately will harm their host.
    Economically, we are in for a tough sled that will most likely last through a first term.
    Internationally, we see increased tensions in the ME this morning, and new problems arising in the Baltics.
    I see nothing but increased problems in the Caucasus –
    the Vienna effect, from P-E Obama’s equivocations during the last crisis.
    Come Jan 20th, we will hear a veritable cacophony of reasons why everything wrong in the country is the fault of GWB, and some of it will be true.
    But, correcting those problems will not be the job of GWB, but that of BHO.
    It is his backside that will be on the line, and that of the Congressional leadership of his Party.
    We know that the leadership on the Hill is incapable of doing anything positive for the country;
    so, it is on him.
    Good Luck!

    Another Drew (579482)

  5. I agree with you. I don’t care if he stumbles with his words, has illicit sex in the White House or makes money on his stock portfolio–I want the official policy of statism, of Big Government, Nanny Government, smashed, absolutely smashed. Maybe the only way to do that is to “rip of the mask off” by electing a statist, like Samizadata said, and give the people what they voted for.

    Republicans, or a third party, have that as their one mission. Otherwise, they’re finished.

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  6. What’s more, there is no way in hell he is going to do away with the poisonous atmosphere in Washington, and anyone who thinks that he can is a fool. It will be amusing to watch him try.

    You think he’s going to try? You’re the naive one, then. The only consistent thing about him is his corruption. He’s bringing the Chicago Machine into the White House.

    I see the stock market is not riding the Obama wave of glee.

    I’ll bet Gawker’s phony exit polls were designed to influence the market before it closed.

    Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c)

  7. I truly want to give him a chance to be “my” president and will strive mightily to do that for as long as I can. My efforts to do that will be made much more difficult by the lefts likely perpetual blaming of GWB for every exisiting and future problem and ascribing racism to any criticism of Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama did not earn my vote; he now needs to earn my trust.

    Old Coot (8a493c)

  8. But wait, there’s more…

    On Power-Line, I found this which could come in handy in referring to the work of the BHO-led Dem Party that will now try to change the way of life in America.
    Proposed File Headings…
    ..the destructive … the abominable … the tyrannical..

    Your mileage may vary.

    Another Drew (579482)

  9. AD, I agree it’s on him and him alone. He can and should not expect any help from me.

    And if they try to expropriate my property in pursuit of his vision of America, then so long and thanks for all the beef (as I do not eat fish).

    Dr. K (f196bc)

  10. I also think that Obama’s personality type is based on a sense of abandonment that the irresponsibility of both parents left him with. Now that he’s reached the highest level any “outsider” could ever attain, he might change, for the better. He’s got the validation now, he’s got a great family (even tho I can’t stand Michelle, she obviously is a good wife and mother), so maybe he will open up to the grandness of our founding principles instead of harping on the negatives all the time.

    Hmm, I’m speculating he might go from doom and gloom liberal to proud conservative. A girl can dream!

    Patricia (ee5c9d)

  11. Hey Patterico!

    Way to start things off on an optimistic note :(

    Would you like some spoiled milk with those sour grapes?

    Oiram (983921)

  12. A little realism is called for to balance the irrational exuberance.

    Dr. K (f196bc)

  13. What’s more, there is no way in hell he is going to do away with the poisonous atmosphere in Washington, and anyone who thinks that he can is a fool. It will be amusing to watch him try.

    What makes you think he will actually try? There is nothing in his history that suggests he has an ability to bring opposing sides together.

    JD (5b4781)

  14. Hey Patterico, the stock market is already down a few points. Darn Obama is already disappointing.

    Oiram (983921)

  15. You know, when I voted for Bush over Gore, I had the feeling that Gore wanted to be a positive force for the country, although I could not stand his condensention. Every speech was like he was lecturing to a 3 year old.

    Then when 9/11 happened, I thought that Gore would have done the right thing for the country – not necessarily the same thing that Bush did, but the right thing. And I would have supported him.

    Over the following 7 years, we heard nothing from the left to show that my belief in the better nature of the “loyal opposition” was warranted.

    If he wants to “heal” the nation, he’s got a tough row to hoe.

    Dr. K (f196bc)

  16. No good man sits in a church for 20 years with his kids listening to “white people invented the AIDS virus”. Would any of you sit in a church full of white people and listen to someone say black people brought AIDS here to kill us and jews greed runs the world? I freakin hope not. F this guy, F his fascist supporters who do not even know why they are voting for him, and f the propaganda organ known as the MSM. F them all in the mouth.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  17. Would a good man collude with ACORN?
    Would a good man disable his campaign site’s AVS in order to receive millions in illegal donations?
    Would a good man be friends with Rashid Khalidi?
    Would a good man have Bill Ayers as a close associate?
    Would a good man have Reverend Wright as a close friend and pastor?
    Would a good man take his children to Wright’s church?
    Would a good man be involved with Tony Rezko?
    Would a good man be friends with Father Pfleger and Reverend Meeks?
    Would a good man flagrantly use the race card and further divide this nation?
    Would a good man oppose giving post-natal care to infants that survive an abortion?

    Taken as a whole, the aforementioned do NOT paint the portrait of a “good man.”

    KC (aa037c)

  18. “Would you like some spoiled milk with those sour grapes?”

    Wow. If my post came across as “sour grapes” then either a) I didn’t communicate my point well or b) you misunderstood me.

    Patterico (1339a9)

  19. Patterico – I agree with you on everything you said, except for the section I highlighted above. It is rumored that he will have Rahm Emmanuel be his Chief of Staff, and that is a clear sign the coming together and unity are not really on their agenda. He is yet another Chicago politico, a partisan pit bull.

    The whole idea of coming together is bullshit anyway. He is not going to reach across the aisle, there is no reason for him to do so. Baracky and the Dems had a big win. To the victor go the spoils. This is all on them now.

    JD (5b4781)

  20. Patterico – Mario has a remarkable ability to misunderstand people, on purpose.

    JD (5b4781)

  21. “What’s more, there is no way in hell he is going to do away with the poisonous atmosphere in Washington, and anyone who thinks that he can is a fool. It will be amusing to watch him try.”

    Would anyone interested in bringing our country together support a church that taught people their own country was trying to freakin kill them? If you watch those videos when Wright was talkin about AIDS those were f@cking punch lines. The crowd got up and roared. He was teaching them to hate and fear their own government run by the evil white man. Obama sat there with his wife and kids and openly supported that sh@t. That is not bringing people together. Reading people write how they want to HOPE that he is not what he actually is makes me want to throw up in my mouth.
    Screw this guy.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  22. The issue of the election is not what Obama will do, it is what an unfettered Democrat Congress will do with no veto threat from the White House.

    Make no mistake, Obama is beholden to George Soros. The Hillary campaign said as much referring to MoveOn.org’s massive support of Obama. Soros’s overriding philosophy is to create a bulletproof, unchallengeable Democrat majority, in essence a single party state.

    Here’s how it will be done.

    1. Back door citizenship for illegal aliens, favoring Democrats with a tectonic shift in voting numbers.

    2. Silencing conservative thought through the “Fairness Doctrine” and FCC measures that will engender fear among license holders, such as 2 year licence renewals, increased pressure for community involvement, pressure to give licences to minority owners.

    3. Supreme Court appointments.

    4. Silencing media criticism of Democrats. This has been mostly accomplished, with the exception of Rupert Murdoch’s properties and a few others. Watch for anti-media consolidation laws aimed at Murdoch.

    5. Tolernce of voter fraud friendly activities in the name of fighting voter supression.

    6. Reducing the influence of the internet, especially at election time. Look for stronger teeth in campign finance reform laws aimed at conservative thought.

    Taxes and other issues are chickenfeed compared to what is at stake here.

    Corky Boyd (e038ec)

  23. Odds are, when the 2012 election rolls around, the American economy will be at the top of the next business cycle.

    No matter what Obama does.

    snuffles (677ec2)

  24. 17..a good man? I’d like someone to point out any good men that he has in his background or where he worked across the aisle or compromised.
    The Fresh prince of Bill Ayers seems apropos. What associations other than corrupt, racist or terrorist does Obama really have? Seriously? So it looks like a beholding to Soros/ACORN/Daley administration to me. let’s see just what luminaries are in charge of the various cabinets.

    I’m am hopeful that some people will hold liberals responsible for what the government does in the next four years and not use the evil W as a continuing scapecoat, but I don’t see any intellectual honesty when the assholes who pushed for NINJA home loans and such and fought tooth and nail against reforms of same are the ones in charge of running the Congressional nuthouse.

    I am ashamed that voters actually reelected such criminal scum as Stevens, Murtha and Jefferson…not to mention the possibility yet of Stuart Smiley as Senator.

    I see no way to prevent severe economic hardship to the general population down the road. The fiscal policies of the past will eventually bring a day of reckoning. Let’s hope we are no worse off than Japan was, but I don’t see how higher tariffs and higher taxes/windfall taxes/cap.gains increases/expiration of Bush tax cuts will help at all.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  25. #18 What’s more, I think he will damage this country with bad policies. I’m not going to pretend otherwise. Inevitably, he is going to take actions that I think are disastrous……….

    Sorry Patterico hard not to miss misunderstand those sentiments.

    But I will take what you said about me misunderstanding at face value.

    Again Good luck in ’12.

    Oiram (983921)

  26. Obama has always said what he thought his audience wanted to hear, has always done what was in his immediate self-interest, and has always evaded when he could.

    Examples of the above include sitting in Wright’s church and linking with Ayers to get started, and then acting in the ways they wanted to stay in their good graces. As for evasions, remember his “higher authority” reply?

    As for after he is sworn in, we will live in interesting times, as per the Chinese curse.

    If there is one bright spot here, it may be that Reid will no longer be the most powerful Dem in DC. Depending on Biden’s scope, Reid may not even be the second most powerful.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  27. #20 Your funny JD.

    Oiram (983921)

  28. Crap. The guy’s a stone crook, like all Chicago pols. Gonna be some nasty stuff coming out, I’d bet on it.

    mojo (8096f2)

  29. This hopey shit I am hearing is disgusting. To “hope” like some zombie that this guy will be just a normal Dem prez is a freakin fantasy. Even Clinton didn’t sit in a church that taught its congregation that the evil US government run by the evil rich white men invented the evil AIDS virus just to kill black people. I would take Monica over that anyday of the freakin week.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  30. 20 years there, with his good buddy pal Wright put on his freakin campaign staff, and his excuse was “that is not the Rev. Wright I knew”. That was also FREAKIN DRAGGED out of him after his poll numbers dropped like a stone. WTF are you blind?

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  31. Comment by snuffles — 11/5/2008 @ 8:29 am

    See: 1936, and get back to us.

    Another Drew (579482)

  32. and mariO still cannot differentiate as well as Lauren between “your” and “you’re”.

    Another Drew (579482)

  33. AD,

    The U.S. economy grew at a real rate of 12% in 1936.

    http://facweb.bcc.ctc.edu/llum/GBUS101/GDPGrowth.pdf

    I guess the one thing I’m really looking forward to is Obama getting to pick Scalia’s replacement.

    snuffles (677ec2)

  34. Yes Patterico I agree with you after alot of though. There are also alot of good men who attend KKK white power churches too. Maybe we should wait outside and try to get one to run for president in 4 freakin years.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  35. Thought. My spelling sucks.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  36. I’m hoping that the new President will be more Clintonesque (at least during his 2nd term), and less Jimmy Carter. We’re going to find out shortly – the real measure of any President is whom he elects to put into his Cabinet. Emmanuel would be a very bad sign, indeed – but Volcker would be a very good one. I’m hoping for the best, and fearing for the worst on this one.

    Dmac (e30284)

  37. #32 After you cussed me out like common trash the other day Another Drew, I thought you were done with me?

    Oh well call me mariO if you like (I’ve been called worse by you).

    Hey your right by the way, I do have a problem differentiating between “your” and “you’re”, but at least I was able to differentiate between the right president for our country and the wrong one.

    Have a great 8 years Another Drew :)

    Oiram (983921)

  38. Fight For Free Speech Has Just Begun

    With far-left Democrats now drunk with virtually-unlimited power, the temptation to clamp down on the opposition in a vindictive manner, banana republic-style, will soon prove irresistible.

    That’s why the remaining freedom-loving Americans are going to have one hell of a fight on our hands. But there is a way to combat Obama’s coming thugocracy.

    Rather than sulking over Tuesday’s losses, let’s use these defeats as a springboard to fight for America’s future. Why repeat the pathetic behavior of liberals in 2000 and 2004, where depression and threats to leave the country became commonplace?

    We are stronger. Though evil has prevailed for now, good will win in the end.

    If not for brazen assertions by several Democratic Party leaders in recent weeks, such concerns might seem paranoid, but Senators Schumer of New York and Bingaman of New Mexico have made it clear that cracking down on free speech rights will be a top priority.

    There’s a good reason for placing the repression of dissent on the front burner: with Obama’s appeal likely to quickly wear thin (just ask any Massachusetts resident who has had to live under his buddy Deval Patrick for two years), the Dems can’t afford to tolerate effective opposition voices.

    Let’s face it: talk radio is in for a surge of listenership over the next several years as worried Americans look for a place to turn in the face of liberal failure in governance.

    If we can keep it on the air despite the planned push by Dems to eliminate it, the medium will prove more powerful than ever.

    What isn’t much known outside the radio industry, however, is that exterminating our favorite talk hosts won’t be painless for the Dems.

    That’s because most of the current major radio operators are just inches away from bankruptcy, thanks to the rejection of music formats by young people, excessive corporate debt caused by overpaying for station purchases and revenue migration to the Internet. Clamping down on talk radio will kill off these firms for good, yet nearly all of them are run by liberal Democrats who heavily supported Obama during this election cycle.

    In addition, there’s no way to terminate conservative talk radio without also wiping out Air America and other liberal programs.

    So any move to crush Rush, Hannity, Levin and the others comes with a significant price for the left: they must sacrifice some of their own in order to eliminate dissenting opinions. Your Radio Equalizer believes they will turn on these supporters in the name of the “greater good”.

    Meanwhile, for talk hosts and bloggers wondering what to do next, they should look to Boston (of all places) where conservative talk radio, local bloggers and (perhaps most importantly) the Boston Herald were able to successfully put Obama buddy Governor Deval Patrick on the defensive as soon as he entered public office.

    This was accomplished through intense pressure right off the bat. His credibility never recovered.

    For voters, the novelty of the Bay State’s first black governor quickly wore off once it became clear Patrick was arrogant, unproductive and insensitive to the needs of others. This is exactly how the first days and months of the Obama presidency are likely to play out.

    For a refresher on what happened in Massachusetts, here’s a great place to start.

    Let the left have their celebrations tonight, in a few short months they’ll be wondering why they were so excited. It’s a classic case of be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

    As for conservatives, we will quickly emerge from this stronger than ever, ready to retake the GOP (from the now thoroughly-discredited moderates) and save America from the ruinous policies of the new fringe-left government.

    radioequalizer.blogspot.com

    PCD (7fe637)

  39. #38 PCD Couldn’t read anymore past this “We are stronger. Though evil has prevailed for now, good will win in the end.”

    Just throw up a little in my mouth there, must be all of that evil.

    Oiram (983921)

  40. Comment by snuffles — 11/5/2008 @ 8:49 am

    Some historical data for you, values in current dollars…
    Year GDP…. Unemployment….
    ’29…..103.6B…….no data
    ’30……91.2B…….no data
    ’31……76.5B…….no data
    ’32……58.7B…….no data
    ’33……56.4B……. 24.9%
    ’34……66.0B …… 21.7%
    ’35……73.3B……. 20.1%
    ’36……83.8B……. 16.9%

    Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
    Yes, 1936 showed a growth rate of 15% over 1935, but the GDP was still $19.8B less than 1929 (-19%).
    This is the result of statist/protectionist/Keynesian economic policies instituted by both the Hoover,
    and Roosevelt Administrations, which distorted the free-market, and prevented it from working.

    Enjoy the next four years, they’re all yours.

    Another Drew (579482)

  41. “…you cussed me out like common trash…”

    You are, what you are!

    Another Drew (579482)

  42. He isn’t a good man, Paterrico. He operates from every bad principles. He hadn’t the character to override them.

    For posterity’s sake, I’ll just say “I told you so” now. You’ll find out what I mean in your own time.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  43. “every bad principle”, rather.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  44. Sorry, I don’t buy it. There is no objective evidence that Barack Obama is a good man. To believe so requires ignoring a lot of facts. Time will tell.

    grs (95626c)

  45. “We are stronger. Though evil has prevailed for now, good will win in the end.”

    What the effin’ hell? Evil? So 63 million people voted for pure evil?

    Please, get a grip, because you’re going off the deep end buddy.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  46. #42 Hey Sarah, I heard a lot of right wing pundits criticizing Democrats as seeming happy when the Iraq war was going bad. To a certain degree they were on target concerning too many of said Dems.

    I hope I’m wrong, but it sounds to me like your hoping for Obama to do bad. Isn’t this hoping that America does bad?

    Oiram (983921)

  47. #45 Hey Peter, honestly do you think we would of acted this way if McCain had been Pres Elect?

    Oiram (983921)

  48. I simply do not believe he has the nation’s best interests at heart.

    Dr. K (f196bc)

  49. #41 Yes you are.

    Oiram (983921)

  50. So any move to crush Rush, Hannity, Levin and the others comes with a significant price for the left:

    I think their demise regardless of your hyperbole, will come, not with a bang, but with a whimper.

    It’s the same with everything that has lost all credibility and become obsolescent.

    Yes, what I’m saying is that basically they’ll be ignored to death, and a more apt end I can’t imagine.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  51. Now you are experiencing the tone that the conservative portion of the electorate has been objecting to for the last eight years.
    I’m sure that if we go back in the archives, we can find some of your posts that parallel, or exceed the tone you now object to from others.
    Conservatives have long objected to political arguments that portrayed them, or their positions, as evil; when, at the same time, our arguments only said that the Left was wrong.
    Now, since the Left has won, and Conservatives are now the Party of Opposition, we will denounce all of your Wrong positions as, evil Wrong.
    If you want the level of political discourse to improve, I would suggest that you convince the person in your mirror.

    Another Drew (579482)

  52. I still believe in giving the man a fair chance at the job – let’s see how he does over the next year, and then we’ll at least have a record of actions to judge him on. Watching the huge rally here last night, I couldn’t help thinking that a lot of folks are going to be sorely disappointed in their candidate – merely because he’s made far too many elliptical promises that cannot possibly be satisfied. After all, you can’t unilaterally “heal the planet and keep our oceans from rising.” Granted, it was just rhetoric, but some of the more ardent among his supporters actually believe this will happen. But I do hope that he keeps his head and doesn’t become completely beholden to his benefactors – time will tell.

    Dmac (e30284)

  53. Shorter AD:

    Even though the economy grew 8 times faster in 1936 than it did under the recent(and soon to end) Republican rule, it was still crippled by evil Socialism!

    Why are you guys rewriting the past when you need to start rewriting the future?

    You’re going to be busy over the next 8 years.

    snuffles (677ec2)

  54. After eight years of hearing Democrats say “Bush is not my president,” and that the Supreme Court stole the 2000 election for him, and that Diebold voting machines in Ohio stole the 2004 election for him, it’s perfectly all right for people to say that Obama is not their president.

    Official Internet Data Office (df6254)

  55. Patterico, don’t listen to the nay-sayers and cynics. They are just trying to come to terms with the new reality. They will soon come around, Give them time. I completely agree with everything you wrote. You are a man of integrity and wisdom. I could vote for you. With the elections over, Obama will no longer be seen as the candidate of change. The underdog with an insurgent army, ready to take over. He is now going to be viewed differently. Not as before. He is now the PE. That changes everything. We must pray and hope that he is able to stand up to the onerous task at hand. Being President is no child play. But I am hopeful that he will do well. Most of the time.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  56. Corky Boyd got it right above.

    I can’t help but think of that focus group of Obama supporters on TV a few months back that when asked to list Obama’s accomplishments could not come up with even one.

    Obama was elected because he promised to give everyone everything they wanted.

    But reality prevails regardless of the ignorance and stupidity of vast numbers of voters.

    Congress has about the lowest approval rating possible and now we have a President who will enable them to perform at even more idiotic levels.

    I am certain that within a year disillusionment will set in as many people finally realize that Obama is not who they thought he was, that he is not going to give them everything they wanted, and that Obama plus our idiot Congress is a very bad thing for our nation.

    If I had to bet money on it, I would bet against Obama being a “good man” in his heart of hearts.

    Dr. Dean (695f35)

  57. Oiram:

    Hey Peter, honestly do you think we would of acted this way if McCain had been Pres Elect?

    I would’ve been crushed, simply because of what was and is at stake in this election, but would I have gone on like that, absolutely not. I don’t think McCain is evil no matter how foul a campaign he ran and how many lies he allowed to be told and repeated and how he tried to game the Jesus and Nascar set with Sarah P (who in my opinion is the cancer that’s destroying the GOP).

    The amazing thing is that SarahW and PCD here don’t see how this approach is the very thing that will continue to splinter and debilitate their party and drive voters to the Democrats.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  58. hate to disagree with you in your house Patterico, but you can’t polish a turd no matter how hard you try.

    Juggy is fundamentally *not* a good man: he’s a lying crook and a devious bastard who has only his personal interests and goals at heart.

    and no, he’s not my president.

    redc1c4 (27fd3e)

  59. *”Cancer” as David Brooks, called her a “cancer on the party.”

    I wonder if PCD and SarahW think Brooks is evil too??

    Peter (e70d1c)

  60. #51 If your talking to me. Please locate on archives a parallel to some of the negative posts you see here.

    I always hope for the best and I have never accused Bush and Republicans of lies. I have actually defended them on that matter with ultra liberal friends.

    Now I have made mistakes in my talking points here and in life. I’ve even learned a thing or two from Patterico and friends that have made me possibly tilt a little less left.

    I’m o.k. with looking in my Mirror…… are you?

    Oiram (983921)

  61. I don’t think McCain is evil no matter how foul a campaign he ran and how many lies he allowed to be told and repeated

    Do you even realize that you basically contradicted yourself in the very first sentence here? Let’s see if I can perform the same task: “I don’t think Peter is a moonbat, despite the many despicable things he’s said here previously, and ignoring the unspeakable actions he’s taken.”

    Is this the kind of passive – aggressive stuff you’re going to be posting here during the next four years? Sorry, but you’re not fooling anyone -try another tack.

    Dmac (e30284)

  62. For the Obamabots, some cautionary words…

    STEVEN DEN BESTE: Not the end of the world.

    Another Drew (579482)

  63. #54 What percentage do you think of Democrats over the last 8 years considered G.W. not to be there president?

    I don’t have actual figures, but I think it’s about 20 to 25 percent. Way too high.

    But having said that, doesn’t it mirror Republicans who think the world is going to end only because they think it says so in the bible?

    My point is all parties have their lunatic fringe.

    Oiram (983921)

  64. The thin veneer of civility of Obama supporters has already been ruptured in just this thread, and Obamassiah hasn’t even taken office yet.

    PCD (7fe637)

  65. No, snuffles is right about the business cycle.

    Almost.

    If it isn’t at the top in 2012, it will be Obama, Pelosi, and Reid’s fault. Period.

    Get some suspenders, snuffles. Your lot has to put on the Daddy pants now, and they’re going to be too big.

    Phil Smith (1cf25d)

  66. Comment by Another Drew — 11/5/2008 @ 9:46 am

    Sorry, forgot the link…
    http://chizumatic.mee.nu/not_the_end_of_the_world

    Another Drew (579482)

  67. But I make no apologies for saying he is a good man. He is my President. He is our President.

    These two things are not linked.

    I will support our President because he is our duly-elected President. But that he is President does not make him a good man. You construct a straw man when you tie the two things together.

    We have to get past this idea that we have to personally demonize the other guy in order to fight his policies.

    Again, a straw man. No one is saying that we must do this. No one is, in fact, demoinzing him in order to set up an opposition to his policies. He is not a good man and his policies are bad. I do not oppose his support for ACORN because he is a bad man but because actively supporting a group with an ultimate goal of collapsing our electoral system. His support of such a group, fully knowing their goal, makes him a bad man. Do you see the difference?

    I don’t need to paint him as a bad man to explain why his tacit approval of the attempted destruction of Joe Wurzelbacher was manifestly wrong. But his support makes him bad. Again, there’s a difference and you have it entirely backwards.

    Jimmie (3f021d)

  68. #61 DMAC your right.

    Sorry Peter, but he’s got a point.

    Oiram (983921)

  69. Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 9:47 am

    Except, the world IS going to end!
    It’s just a matter of time.

    Another Drew (579482)

  70. I am not so sure about being a good man – A good man would do the right thing when nobody is watching – Ayers Wright, Acorn, Khadili, Campaign financing

    Joe - Dallas (d7c430)

  71. If it isn’t at the top in 2012, it will be Obama, Pelosi, and Reid’s fault. Period.

    But the current recession America is in has nothing to do with conservative economic policies like tax cuts, right, Phil?

    You have to make the hypocrisy explicit.

    Even then, the irony will be lost on the far right.

    snuffles (677ec2)

  72. Where does it say that in The Bible?

    Official Internet Data Office (df6254)

  73. Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 9:50 am

    Let us try this:
    #61 DMAC, you are right.

    If you want to be taken seriously, you have to be literate.

    Another Drew (579482)

  74. #72 Exactly my point OIDO.

    But ask End Of World Nuts where to find it and they will interpret it their way.

    Oiram (983921)

  75. I asked you. Where does it say that in The Bible?

    Official Internet Data Office (df6254)

  76. OIDO #69 Exibit A.

    Oiram (983921)

  77. Hilarious. Go fishing for red herring much, snuffles? At any rate, no, the current economic crisis has nothing to do with tax cuts specifically. Revenues were up – it’s just that spending was up more. Try not to display your economic illiteracy so blatantly.

    But take note, folks – BlameBush is alive and well, and will remain so.

    Phil Smith (1cf25d)

  78. Try to focus, please. I asked you. Where does it say that in The Bible?

    Official Internet Data Office (df6254)

  79. OIDO #76

    Notice I said on #63

    But having said that, doesn’t it mirror Republicans who think the world is going to end only because they think it says so in the bible?

    The emphasis needs to be on “Think”.

    Oiram (983921)

  80. The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 11/05/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

    David M (447675)

  81. I apologize if I’m not up on the current economic lies the far right is telling itself these days, Phil.

    For some reason, they aren’t repeated that much in the respectable financial press.

    snuffles (677ec2)

  82. Peter, you have some faulty vision. Obama is the one who lied his Donkey off to get elected.

    It is you, Oiram, snuffles, etc. who have exhibited the my way or the highway mentality, and it did not splinter the Donkey party.

    PCD (7fe637)

  83. I am not so sure about being a good man – A good man would do the right thing when nobody is watching – Ayers Wright, Acorn, Khadili, Campaign financing

    Yup. That said, he is the President-elect (de facto, if not de jure, as the Electoral College hasn’t met, yet), and will be the President. I’ll give the office the respect it deserves — some — and the occupant the respect that he earns . . . which, so far, isn’t much, except for some of his skills and talents.

    Joel Rosenberg (5ec843)

  84. Comment by snuffles — 11/5/2008 @ 9:52 am

    Exactly right.
    The current economic difficulties have nothing to do with the tax cuts put into place during the first Bush-43 Administration.
    This crisis was brought about by the collapse of the sub-prime market which was created by the policies of the Carter (CRA) and Clinton (Fannie/Freddie/CRA) Administrations, and the Democrats that were running the two GSE’s, plus the political protection that was provided to them on Capitol Hill by leading Democrats such as Chris Dodd who got a sweet-heart mortgage as a “Friend of Angelo” Mozillo of CountryWide.
    This has nothing to do with tax cuts, and it will take tax cuts to get the economy moving again; specifically, reductions in the Capital Gains Rates to encourage those with capital (money) to go back into the market and invest.
    If the government attempts to replace individual investors in the market, it will fail just as it did in the 30’s, prolonging a financial crisis, and creating another Depression.

    Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it, first as tragedy, then as farce.

    Another Drew (579482)

  85. Speaking as someone who lives in Illinois and is familiar with the Chicago machine and all the harm that it can do, Obama’s offer to Emanuel of the chief of staff position isn’t encouraging, particularly since Emanuel, I believe, was recently quoted as saying that Republicans could go blank themselves.

    rochf (ae9c58)

  86. I hope I’m wrong but I see no reliable indications that Obama is a ‘good man’. He strikes me as the kind of man who will do anything, say anything, in order to reach his goal. His every critical decision in education, politics, religion, and social connections seem to me to be aligned with one goal: the acquisition of power to impose his decisions on other people. But to what end? To achieve social justice? His personal contributions to charity don’t indicate that. To heal racial divides? His divisive rhetoric denies that. In the end, he has reversed himself on so many aspects of what should be core convictions that I still can’t guess what his are, or even if he has any. Coupled with his inexperience by any practical measure, and the kinds of people he has surrounded himself with — race-baiters, anti-semites, rip-off artists, and socialist revolutionaries — and the resulting picture is not an encouraging one. As hard as I look, I can see no ‘good man’ at the center of it all that might pull back from the brink when the combination of existential forces are pushing him towards it.

    Socratease (64f814)

  87. Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 10:00 am

    Every astro-physicist will tell you that the Earth is going to end when the star it circles dies.
    That will occur in 10 or 20 Billion Years, give or take.
    It has nothing to do with the Bible.

    Another Drew (579482)

  88. You’ve gotta be kidding. I am sorry but being unrealistic and wrong swings both ways. We can demonize people wrongly and we can credit other people wrongly as well.

    This is a Chicago thung (to quote Pres Clinton) who has run the most dishonest, unethical, sleazy campaign in the history of this nation.

    He has lied about who he is, what he believes and his associations.

    Sorry this guy deserves all the bad press he doesn’t get.

    LISA (943ea3)

  89. It must be nice to think that debating involves nothing more that vaguely attributing lies to one’s interlocutors, without specifying what you claim to be false.

    You’re doing a fine job of demonstrating your need for suspenders. May I recommend that like Justin Wilson, you purchase a belt as well?

    Phil Smith (1cf25d)

  90. #87 Thanks for the clarification Another. I just took you off the 20% list.

    Oiram (983921)

  91. I ahve to say, the premise of the article is idiocy on stilts. What evidence is there that Captain BS is “a good man?” Every known associate is a radical or worse. Deliberately chose the most corrupt city in the country to begin his political career. Refuses to provide names of donors. or any of his own writings. Sorry, but that doesn’t add up to “good” in my books.

    ginsocal (e79c16)

  92. Having a wonderful effect on the financial markets….

    Dow down 285…

    Another Drew (579482)

  93. I just took you off the 20% list.
    Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 10:21 am

    Ask me if I care…
    On second thought, don’t ask, for I don’t.

    Another Drew (579482)

  94. Having a wonderful effect on the Russians….

    Medvedev confronts US on missiles, on election night…

    Official Internet Data Office (df6254)

  95. #92 LOL Blame Game. I was waiting for it. On second thought your back on the 20% list Another D. ………… as if you care.

    Oiram (983921)

  96. I’ll give you an example of what I considered to be “good men,” two past Illinois Democratic Senators – Alan Dixon and Paul Simon. I disagreed with Simon on many issues, but I believed he did what he thought was right for the constituents of his state. I would also add to that list the name of past GOP Senator Peter Fitzgergald, who withstood incredible pressure from both parties in his own state not to put in a truly non – partisan Federal prosecutor in Chicago (the other Fitzgerald, no relation).

    If Obama moves to replace Fitzgerald immediately, then he’ll have already lost a great deal of built – in goodwill among many of his supporters here; it will signal that the “Chicago Way” of politics will trump all else regarding his mores of leadership.

    Dmac (e30284)

  97. #94 Ummmmm……. your smart enough to know that Bush is still president right?

    If I’m not mistaken Obama doesn’t take office till January.

    Oiram (983921)

  98. “I do believe he is fundamentally a good man and a patriot…”

    I don’t see how you can be a patriot and belong to a church that calls on God to damn America and that demands a non-negotiable committment to “Africa” from its parishoners.

    I look at Barack Obama, what he’s done in the past, what he’s doing now, and I don’t see anything at all patriotic. I don’t think he gives a hoot about America, and I don’t think he intends to do what’s good for America.

    Dave Surls (83046d)

  99. Way to start things off on an optimistic note :(

    Would you like some spoiled milk with those sour grapes?

    Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 8:01 am

    Get back to us when people with giant papier mache heads start throwing eggs at Obama’s inauguration parade.

    MayBee (37070f)

  100. The day before election Barack Obama was in Ohio and saw a young man with several puppies. He asks the young man what the dogs were. The young man replies, they were just born a few hours ago and they are democrats. Obama moves on but remembers his daughters wanting a dog. The day after he is elected president he returns to Ohio and goes to the young mans house who just the day before showed him the puppies. Obama tells the young man he wants to buy the DEMOCRAT puppies he saw yesterday. The young man replies. They are not Democrats, they are REPUBLICANS. Obama with a puzzled look on his face looks at his aides and says to the young man: REPUBLICANS? How can that be? They were DEMOCRATS yesterday? The young man responds: Oh, but today they opened their eyes.

    Jay Ross (8ef6ea)

  101. #99 Good Point MayBee about the papier mache.

    Please note that I retracted a bit on the comment you read on comment #25

    Sorry Patterico hard not to miss misunderstand those sentiments.
    But I will take what you said about me misunderstanding at face value.

    Oiram (983921)

  102. Very well-put, Jay.

    Icy Truth (0466e6)

  103. Ya’ll need to stop being so hard on Mr. Fry.

    After all, he’s just a typical white person.

    Clingy too.

    ThomasD (211bbb)

  104. This post is complete bullshit.

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  105. If I’m not mistaken Obama doesn’t take office till January.

    He’s going to have to take immediate actions on things that cannot wait until his inauguration – Pakistan, possibly Iran, the GM/Chrysler auto bailout, and other large capitalized companies that are already lining up at the Federal trough for immediate assistance. This will not be like other Presidencies as of late – no grace period for the O – Man, and it’s one the reasons why McCain couldn’t close the gap in the final stretch. This kind of financial crisis was a godsend to his campaign, but now he owns it, despite what his partisans keep screeching about today. It won’t wash – he cannot have it both ways on the issue.

    Dmac (e30284)

  106. #92 LOL Blame Game. I was waiting for it.

    Um, you’re smart enough to understand that the market today is reacting to the election yesterday, right? The market reacts to recent news, always has and always will.

    Steverino (647a08)

  107. Yeah alot of good people refer to their own citizens as “bitter clingers who hate people that do not look like them”. Yes that really is what it takes to be a good person. We all probably have a neighbor or friend that attends Klan churches but that is ok too. They are good peoples I love em.
    /

    Mr. Pink (a64369)

  108. Did you all get that? Mr. Pink’s post is complete bullshit.

    Icy Truth (0466e6)

  109. By the way, I refuse to take seriously anyone who — after being schooled on the issue — still can’t distinguish between a contraction and a possessive pronoun.

    Steverino (647a08)

  110. But wait Dmac, if you tell me Obama needs to start taking action as far as picking the appropriate cabinet members I’ll give you that one.

    But as far as “Taking Action”????

    Bush is still president bottom line.

    As far as “owning” our financial crisis, your absolutely right. But if he starts to make decisions now as president elect, I’ll even start raising my eyebrows about his actions.

    Oiram (983921)

  111. #46 Peter :

    I hope I’m wrong, but it sounds to me like your hoping for Obama to do bad. Isn’t this hoping that America does bad?

    To the contrary. But if the past predicts the future, and his bad character and weak understanding are taken into account, I think my “I told you so” is going to sting some time down the road.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  112. All aboard!!!! The sinking ship that is the Republican Party is leaving.

    Telly (753bad)

  113. Bush is still president bottom line.

    Of course – but he’s going to be advising Obama about any major decisions taken over the next few weeks, and there’s a plethora of them. Trust me on this, Obama’s imprints are going to be all over those decisions, as they must. We are still in a time of war, and the other pressing financial concerns cannot be kicked down the road at this point.

    Dmac (e30284)

  114. #109 If you’re telling me that you refuse to take seriously a commenter on a right wing blog who happens to make a grammatical mistake from time to time but will accept the current president of the United States who has made a living out of it………….. well I guess YOUR going to have live with you’re mistakes.

    LOL

    Oiram (983921)

  115. Gee, Telly – thanks for stopping by and offering your incisive Highlights for Children – style commentary.

    Dmac (e30284)

  116. Can’t contain myself any longer: Someone needs to tell Tom Brokaw that it’s time for him to go to the home. Comparing the current economic situation and “the need for ‘service'” to the situation our country was in immediately after Pearl Harbor!

    It’s going to be okay, Tom. Here’s your melba toast and your Metamucil . . . and your pill.

    Nitey-nite.

    Icy Truth (0466e6)

  117. This post is complete bullshit.

    I think we got your general idea much earlier – but thanks for reminding us of your true thoughts on the matter once again.

    Dmac (e30284)

  118. #113 Of course Bush will be advising Obama, it’s his job. But isn’t it a leap to say that “Obama’s imprints” are going to be all over Bush’s decisions?

    At least wait until January to start the political blame game DMAC.

    Oiram (983921)

  119. Icy, the only person left in that discredited news operation was Brokaw – their talent stable is virtually bare at this point. If they had run their cable outlet with any degree of professionalism, bringing Mr. Slurry – Speech back would never have been necessary. They made their beds, and now they’re stuck with it – replete with Olberman and Matthews now being mocked wildly by their own compatriots in the MSM.

    Dmac (e30284)

  120. Now that the Chosen One has been chosen, now that the post-racial candidate has proven just how post-racial he and the country are, WILL ALL OF YOU DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT RACE ALREADY???

    [I swear, if I hear Brian Williams say “African-American” one more time . . .]

    Icy Truth (0466e6)

  121. Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 11:04 am

    Your “time to time” grammatical errors are a pathology which only demonstrates your immaturity and unseriousness.
    Which is why you are mocked, repeatedly.

    Another Drew (579482)

  122. At least wait until January to start the political blame game DMAC.

    You need to read the past histories of Presidents from opposing parties who took over in crisis situations – advise and consent was critical to the successful transitions of administrations.

    Dmac (e30284)

  123. #109 If you’re telling me that you refuse to take seriously a commenter on a right wing blog who happens to make a grammatical mistake from time to time but will accept the current president of the United States who has made a living out of it………….. well I guess YOUR going to have live with you’re mistakes.

    First, you don’t do it “from time to time”, you do it consistently, even after being corrected on it. It’s deliberate ignorance.

    Second, when has President Bush confused “you’re” and “your”? Give me one cite.

    Third, I “accept” the President because he is the President. Whether I agree with him or his policies, I accept the fact that he is the President.

    Finally, there is a difference between not speaking well and not writing well. I’ve known lots of brilliant engineers who can’t speak well. I’ve never heard of a person who can’t use proper written grammar that was anything more than average intellect. If you’d take some time to think about it, you’d understand the difference.

    Steverino (647a08)

  124. Unfortunately, men are judged by their actions. Obamessiah consistently does bad things. To me, that isn’t the mark of a good man at all: it’s the mark of a bad man.

    Good men, yes, can flub and make mistakes, but there is no mistaking it… A man who is for anything as evil as partial-birth abortions is not even close to a good person. We are what we do and say.

    This man we will soon call President (or God, depending on how much you worship him) is not doing what he does for the good of the people because if he did want to do what was best, he would get us back to the Constitution and what was set out there. Evil takes away a person’s God-given right of freedom and choice. That is the ultimate evil.

    It doesn’t matter to me which party a person belongs to. If anyone, Obamessiah or even Sarah Palin, wanted to get into the White House to enact laws forcing me to accept murder in the form of abortion, forcing me to pay for someone else’s healthcare, forcing me to give up my right to choose – well, I’d call that person evil.

    vilate (b3304d)

  125. #115, that’s an insult to Highlights! heh.

    vilate (b3304d)

  126. #123 Wow……….. We don’t have enough time or room to go into Bush’s gaffs…. written and or spoken.

    That’s like asking me to cite every time I have made a mistake or more importantly every time you overlooked a fellow comrade of yours here who has made a grammatical mistake.

    Get Real Steverino, this is a blog site not the oval office.

    By the way I agree with you that Bush is my president as well.

    Oiram (983921)

  127. criticizing Democrats as seeming happy when the Iraq war was going bad.

    They did not “seem” happy, they were happy, as it was helping them politically. They “seemed” to be cheerleading for our opponents.

    Hey Peter, honestly do you think we would of acted this way if McCain had been Pres Elect?

    I would’ve been crushed, simply because of what was and is at stake in this election, but would I have gone on like that, absolutely not.

    You are one of the more angry and vitriolic trolls around here. The mere idea that you would have been more gracious in defeat is laughable on its face. Just look at the pure bile in what followed the above statement.

    Mario – Come January 9th, this is all on Baracky, San Fran Nan, and Harry.

    JD (5b4781)

  128. Obama is the most dishonest man to ever run for major office in my life time.

    The man is a disciple of the political amoralist Saul Alinsky, and Obama follows his creed of “the ends justify the means”. Obama has _taught_ Alinsky to other radicals, for God’s sake.

    The man has worked closely with the most corrupt criminals in Chicago politics, endorsing corrupt members of that machine over reform candidates — and Obama has personally profited time and again from his complicity with this criminal conspiracy.

    The man has long been motivated by deeply racial — and racist — view of the world, well documented in many, many places.

    Wake up Patrick. You’re a fool in this, and you should admit it.

    What evidence do we have that you know anything about Obama?

    None.

    And this post of yours is more evidence.

    PrestoPundit (ff5e16)

  129. You’re joking, right?

    PrestoPundit (ff5e16)

  130. #127 They did not “seem” happy, they were happy, as it was helping them politically. They “seemed” to be cheerleading for our opponents.

    That’s fine JD I’ll accept that some Dems did that. But isn’t what’s going on this post concerning Obama’s future successes by your comrades more of the same thing? That was my point.

    You are one of the more angry and vitriolic trolls around here. The mere idea that you would have been more gracious in defeat is laughable on its face.

    JD, I’ll have to say to that nonsense is this:
    Guess will never know :)

    Oiram (983921)

  131. “Guess we’ll never know”

    (Sorry Patterico grammatical police Steverino)

    Oiram (983921)

  132. “Obama is the most dishonest man to ever run for major office in my life time.”

    So you weren’t alive for George W? :)

    Telly (753bad)

  133. Patterico, I find your defense of “Good Man” Obama not only flimsy and unsupported by fact, but disingenuous demagoguery. You provided not a single instance where Obama has shown “goodness”. Instead, you say, John McCain did some bad things too. A fatuous moral equivalence and an insult to Mr. McCain, who through his generous donations to many charitable causes, adoption of an orphan infant, standing by old friends who were otherwise scorned and abandoned, and numerous other examples has proven himself a “good man”. To say that Obama is a “good man” because he is president, even though he will do bad things because he believes in them, is absurd. By that measure, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were “good men”. Furthermore, calling Obama a “patriot” is unfounded. A man who believes the Constitution of the country is fundamentally flawed, disrespects the National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance, and treats our soldiers and veterans with disdain is no patriot. Lastly, I fail to see how the symbolic signifigance of the United States selecting a black president has anything to do with the questions of Obama’s goodness. Al Sharpton ran in the Democratic primary four years ago. Had he been elected, would that qualify him as a “good man”? Yes, Obama is my president, and I will support him when he does good things for our country, but I do not hold much hope of that happening, as there is no evidence extant of Obama being “good”.

    Joe (98b642)

  134. No, none of us were around for the election of George Washington.

    Another Drew (579482)

  135. “No, none of us were around for the election of George Washington.”

    zing

    Telly (753bad)

  136. Mario – They are entitled to their opinion, and it does have some merit. I tend to agree with Patterico on this one.

    Oiram – You agreed that Peter went one to refute his own point in by his own words that followed above.

    JD (5b4781)

  137. I appreciate your words. But I’m taking issue with calling the Obamaman a black. Got kind of a longish post on my pages if you’re interested.

    CatMoves (1d502a)

  138. Mario – They are entitled to their opinion, and it does have some merit. I tend to agree with Patterico on this one.

    Oiram – You agreed that Peter went on to refute his own point in by his own words that followed above.

    Telly can only aspire to “Highlights” material.

    JD (5b4781)

  139. Go find the Spike Lee interview from this morning. You will puke a little in the back of your mouth.

    JD (5b4781)

  140. #123 Wow……….. We don’t have enough time or room to go into Bush’s gaffs…. written and or spoken.

    I asked you for one instance where Bush confused “you’re” and “your”, which is what I criticized you about. Your reaction tells me you can’t find one.

    Look, everyone makes grammatical errors, and by and large, I look past them. But it takes a special kind of intellectual laziness to constantly confuse “you’re” and “your” in writing. After dozens of posts with the same error, I will dismiss the writer.

    You apparently didn’t disagree with my point that the market today is reacting to the election yesterday.

    Steverino (647a08)

  141. Highlights huh? That happens to be George W Bush’s favorite

    Telly (753bad)

  142. #136 Sorry JD, I think there was a compliment in your first sentence…… I guess I’ll take it where I can get it.

    Second sentence I didn’t understand:

    Oiram – You agreed that Peter went one to refute his own point in by his own words that followed above.

    Oiram (983921)

  143. I know you are, but what am I?

    Is that the best you have?

    JD (5b4781)

  144. Mario –

    You are one of the more angry and vitriolic trolls around here. The mere idea that you would have been more gracious in defeat is laughable on its face.

    I said that in re. Peter’s oh so eloquent rant, decrying the lack of graciousness in defeat. He then proceeded to run through his litany of Republicans are evil talking points, thus essentially refuting himself in a matter of a couple sentences.

    JD (5b4781)

  145. #140 I’ve been dismissed before Steverino (I’ll survive).

    I do disagree with your point about the market reacting to the election. It has been up and down for the past couple of months. Sure it could be Obama’s win, but do you know that for sure?

    Making me look ridiculous for refusing to show you an example of Bush confusing “Your” with “You’re” is like me making you look ridiculous by not showing us irrefutable proof that the markets are down because of last night’s election.

    Maybe you haven’t, but many here are already citing today’s market as a reason to not have voted for Obama. Ridiculous to say the least.

    Oiram (983921)

  146. This is for you, JD:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Z8pSXCNFI

    snuffles (677ec2)

  147. #61 DMAC, you’re right.

    Sorry Peter, but he’s got a point.

    Comment by Oiram — 11/5/2008 @ 9:50 am

    There is a BIG difference between being grossly unethical, as McCain’s campaign (and ultimately the man himself is responsible,) and being evil.

    One can be one, without being the other.

    Somehow, Obama is evil according to some here, simply on the unfounded lies, smears and because he had the nerve to beat a Republican, in a presidential election, and to me it all smacks of the entitlement the Right has had towards the presidency for the last 20 years. Because they’re the TRUE Americans, they’re the only ones who care about this country and defending it and it’s people being free.

    But this is a NEW DAY, and a NEW ERA and new phase in the American experiment and I should stop going on about these very real slights, lest I become one of those cranks who can’t accept the reality of a new situation and lives in the past. Ahem.

    I know the GOP will never apologize for the grotesque abuse they pulled under Bush Jr., maybe someday, for now I just would like some acceptance of cause and effect.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  148. “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” – Mencken

    JD (5b4781)

  149. #144 Gotcha JD sorry for the misunderstanding. Hey man isn’t there anything you could do for that dyslexia?

    Oiram (983921)

  150. There is a BIG difference between being grossly unethical, as McCain’s campaign (and ultimately the man himself is responsible,)…

    Please cite the “grossly unethical” actions of the McCain Campaign.

    Another Drew (579482)

  151. Making me look ridiculous for refusing to show you an example of Bush confusing “Your” with “You’re” is like me making you look ridiculous by not showing us irrefutable proof that the markets are down because of last night’s election.

    I don’t make you look ridiculous, oiram, you do that with your own words.

    Irrefutable proof? I never claimed to have that. But it’s absolutely boneheaded to insist that a market which has historically reacted to the biggest event of the day all of a sudden isn’t reacting to it today.

    Steverino (647a08)

  152. My comment @ 12:01 is directed to Peter’s @ 11:56.

    Another Drew (579482)

  153. 147, Peter are you one psychological projector. The unethical one is “THE ONE” who was elected. One day, the ballotbox stuffing Democrats will come to justice.

    Oh, Peter, if it is more Patriotic to pay higher taxes, is not Charles Rangel UN-Patriotic for not paying his taxes, and when caught, not paying penalties and interest as any unelected-to-office citizen? If Obama were so ethical and honest, why didn’t he denounce Rangel?

    PCD (7fe637)

  154. Comment by Steverino — 11/5/2008 @ 12:05 pm

    On 8/29/08, the NYSE DJIA opened @ 11,713 after hearing Barack Obama’s acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention.
    Today, following the selection of President-Elect Obama, the DJIA closed @ 9282.
    Down 2,431.

    There’s the benchmark you have to stand to.

    Another Drew (579482)

  155. #150 – Drew –

    Here are some examples:

    1) McCain agreed to take federal financing and then renounced that position,

    2) Then raised an unprecedented amount of campaign money in ways that encouraged and facilitated fraud and violations of election laws (e.g., no verification of the lawfulness of credit card donations),

    3) Gave money to ACORN and shared name lists with them to help them maximize how many illegal or duplicate registrations they could make, and

    4) Paid firms to post already-known-to-be-false youtube videos under fake names about the other VP candidate (Axelrod to Winner).

    Oh, wait! Those are Obama and not McCain examples. Sorry, my bad.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  156. Comment by Another Drew — 11/5/2008 @ 12:18 pm

    Steverino, my closing comment is not directed to you, but to the usual suspects.

    Another Drew (579482)

  157. Comment by jim2 — 11/5/2008 @ 12:19 pm

    That’s all right Jim, everyone can be blinded by partisan anger from “time to time”.

    Another Drew (579482)

  158. The unethical one is “THE ONE” who was elected.

    Examples please.

    If Obama were so ethical and honest, why didn’t he denounce Rangel?

    Um…and why exactly would Obama want to bark up that tree, because they’re both African-American?

    Good logic. Of course it also explains the idea that the only way Obama won 349 EV was by ballot stuffing, because Dems are so evil.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  159. Um…and why exactly would Obama want to bark up that tree, because they’re both African-American?

    Perhaps because Rangel is a leader within the Congress who should be setting an example for others in complying with the laws that he writes.
    Oh, forget that, I completely forgot that Congressmembers are exempt from the laws that they expect the rest of us to observe.
    Afterall, he was only light on his taxes by 10, 20, 30 Thousands of Dollars? Minor oversight.

    Another Drew (579482)

  160. Peter – Do you have a warehouse full of strawpeople?

    JD (5b4781)

  161. 1) McCain agreed to take federal financing and then renounced that position,

    Oh right, because McCain wouldn’t have done the same thing in a heartbeat if he had the support of so many regular people and not just GOP fatcats (and those didn’t even like him anyway cos he wasn’t Jesus obsessed enough).

    2) Then raised an unprecedented amount of campaign money in ways that encouraged and facilitated fraud and violations of election laws (e.g., no verification of the lawfulness of credit card donations),

    Proof please. Millions of people gave in small modest increments. I know because I was one of them. I suggest the GOP sue to have these sources investigated and agree to the same thing for McCain and the RNC. But they won’t touch it with a ten foot pole because they’re hypocrites. So put up or shut up.

    3) Gave money to ACORN and shared name lists with them to help them maximize how many illegal or duplicate registrations they could make, and

    Again, another negro strawman created by the right. ACORN isn’t perfect, but the ties between Obama and ACORN are tenuous at best with Obama representing them, in conjuction with the Department of Justice.


    4) Paid firms to post already-known-to-be-false youtube videos under fake names about the other VP candidate (Axelrod to Winner).

    Again another Right wing moonbat stunt originated by thug and bully, Rusty Schakleford at MYPETJAWA, except that for all his nifty due diligence, ole Rusty forgot to go the extra mile and make it known that McCain worked with Winner & Co. in 2002. But I did and wrote about it on Metafilter much to the chagrin of big bad ole Dr. Rusty Shackleford and his pet Jawa.

    You guys can try and spin this loss anyway you want, but you’re still not going to get away with it even if the election is over, because lies and smears are still lies and smears and liars are still liars.

    Peter (e70d1c)

  162. Alright, look guys, this is wrong. I think the Dems owe it to be more gracious in victory and I’m sorry if I sound harsh, so I’m calling it quits for the day. This sort of back and forth isn’t productive and we should all try and get past all this partisan crap anyway.

    Be Well,

    P

    Peter (e70d1c)

  163. Anyone see the disconnect between the vitriol in #161 and the attempt to declare itself to be a gracious winner in #162?

    Oh right, because McCain wouldn’t have done the same thing

    You are a mind reader? McCain may be a lot of things, but unprincipled is not one of them.

    Proof please. Millions of people gave in small modest increments. I know because I was one of them. I suggest the GOP sue to have these sources investigated and agree to the same thing for McCain and the RNC. But they won’t touch it with a ten foot pole because they’re hypocrites. So put up or shut up.

    This is just intentional aggressive ignorance. None are so blind as those that refuse to see.

    Again, another negro strawman created by the right.

    Racist

    JD (5b4781)

  164. But this is a NEW DAY, and a NEW ERA and new phase in the American experiment

    I’ve noticed that Peter has an unfortunate tendency to sound like those loudspeakers at the Maoist education camps in Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos. I’d tell him to rent “The Killing Fields” for a primer on what I’m talking about, but I fear the irony would be lost on him.

    Dmac (e30284)

  165. Somehow, Obama is evil according to some here, simply on the unfounded lies, smears and because he had the nerve to beat a Republican,

    Peter. He didn’t have the nerve to beat a Republican. Hell, he didn’t even have the experience. HE HAS GEORGE SOROS and THE CHICAGO MACHINE.

    Obama himself is a machine pol. Call it what you want. Look to the man’s past to look to our future. Oh, wait. He’s covered everything up. Very savvy. Clearly, he studied the Clinton years very closely.

    His election is a paid coup. He’s the figure-head. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Vermont Neighbor (c91cfe)

  166. 161 – Peter –

    1) McCain made his pledge early and long before any details were known. Have you ever heard of McCain-Feingold? Just because Obama never sponsored tough legislation in the Senate does not mean that others do not.

    2) The credit card ploy was so well documented in the last month on the web, that your denial is ludicrous. Here’s one source:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102803413.html

    3) ACORN isn’t perfect, right. Talk about strawpersons – showing your sexism, weren’t you? -Here’s one source:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aaZPkeEy_t9c&refer=us

    4) It’s not about what anyone did in 2002. It’s about what they did in 2007-8. And Rusty nailed the Dems solid, as you apparently acknowledge, since you did not dispute it. Heck, one of the Winners admitted it.

    Yet, I agree with your last phrase. However, it applies to the Dems and this time there was proof.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  167. “Let us describe Barack Obama as a good but flawed man who is likely to do some very bad things to this country”

    and…..that Satan fellow is a good guy to play golf with too. the modern problem is that contrary to moral relativism, ( which is abundant even on right wing conservative blogs), there are absolutes, there is good and evil. Oba’s agenda is based in hatred, your hopeful assessment in Orwell-speak nonsense

    L Elion (0382e0)

  168. Patterico, I suspect you’re a good man despite being of the Republican flavor. (As a former Republican I have a hard time being generous…so thus ‘suspect’).

    I take Obama will be ‘centrist’ and even pleasing to the thoughtful Republicans (a minority) like McCain.

    Thank you for giving Obama centrists hope that some peace will ensue at least for awhile.

    Just having african-americans gaining a truly positive role-model is worth this. (I counter those Republicans saying that Obama ‘used’ his negro-ness to win…with what the hell waz Sara Palin selected for other than her woman-ness.)

    I seems Republicans and Democrats have very similar game plans…so does it have to be the inevitable culture war?

    Anyway, I expect other conservative blogs to be like Protein Wisdom…bloody minded terrorists from within. )

    datadave (2fa7ed)

  169. We have to get past this idea that we have to personally demonize the other guy in order to fight his policies. We’ve said some spirited things about Obama in the heat of battle, and we’ve meant them. But he’s not evil. Let the Democrats be the party who demonizes the other side as evil.

    Patterico:

    I appreciate the sentiments in this post, but I was wondering whether you meant it when you called Obama “dishonest, low-life pondscum” a few months ago?

    Foo Bar (5a0221)

  170. Some people can rent “Killing Fields” and wonder how something so promising could go wrong…. and then they’d blame it on US policy in Southeast Asia

    SteveG (71dc6f)

  171. Foo Bar – I think he was referring to you when he typed that.

    JD (008a90)

  172. If brakabama is a “good man”, just who the fuck isn’t? If a lying sack of shit communist is a “good man”, I don’t want to know any good men.

    ccoffer (03677a)

  173. Patterico

    I’m late to this thread, so if this has been covered, my apologies.

    Issues of culture and morality is something I write about/think about a great deal. And while I can understand you hewing to the tradition that says, “Game finished, both sides shake hands and go on with the day”, I think your willingness to move from a neutral position to a sweeping positive one about Obama, the man, is premature and more than a little problematic.

    I am not here to examine your motives, only to tell you of my perception of your pronouncement.

    I will not dispute that absent any contrary evidence that Obama is a good man – in the micro – husband, father, grandson. But that goodness doesn’t necessarily translate into “good” or “honorable” in the macro. And there we have evidence of Obama’s lack of character, in the kindest terms.

    Am I speaking of rhetorical flourishes? Political promises? Exaggerations on the campaign trail? No, I’m talking about the structural way the campaign was handled and Obama’s complicity in one of the dirtiest, fraudulent and dishonest campaigns I’ve experienced.

    What is the manner of the character of a man who makes the charge (allows his campaign) that Bill Clinton is a racist? Bill Clinton? What is the manner of the character of a man who allows his campaign to mock McCain’s physical disabilities that came as a result of his torture? What of the nuclear attacks on Stanley Kurtz including what amounts to a DOS attack on the radio station on which he appeared? McCain was always quick to publicly denounce what he thought were unfair attacks on Obama, but there was deafening silence from The One over the vicious, scorch the earth attacks on Sarah Palin and her family, especially the “Trig is not Sarah’s baby!” stuff.

    And what of Obama’s deliberate disabling of basic credit card security? What of the character of a man who facilitates millions and millions of tainted dollars?

    Such a man is more than merely “flawed”. We are ALL flawed. How we approach our flaws … try to fight them versus embracing and expanding on them … is our moral measure.

    We all have a moral bank account, where our behaviors constitute deposits and withdrawals.

    Obama is overdrawn and a speech, no matter how elegant and filled with “can’t we all get along?” moves him immediately into the black.

    I don’t forget his deliberate designation of all opponents as “racist”. He owes this country a sincere apology in that regard.

    But I’m not holding my breath because my measure of this man is that he is not a good man. I would hope for a half way decent leader, but that would no more redeem his character than all the good leadership and deeds in the Nixon presidency made up for Richard’s deep flaws.

    I await this generation’s Woodward and Bernstein to look into the fraud of Campaign Obama. That is my audicity of hope.

    Darleen (187edc)

  174. That is a powerful comment, Darleen, and it expresses a lot of the things I’m feeling now.

    DRJ (cb68f2)

  175. I agree we don’t have to demonize someone in order to criticize policies. I would prefer a world where both Dems and Repubs did that.

    But that does not mean that some may warrant being demonized, even if they promote policies you agree with.

    But the evidence is with PrestoPundit — 11/5/2008 @ 11:32 am
    -The man is a disciple of the political amoralist Saul Alinsky, and Obama follows his creed of “the ends justify the means”.
    His long list of problematic associates have been listed before, so I won’t again. I’ll list instead some of the old friends from high school and college and recent years that have come forward to speak on his behalf without “baggage”:

    As far as electing an African American as President, I’m concerned it will not really mean much at all.
    Many, if not most of us, have thought we could elect an African American or woman president for some time now, if they were qualified and the best choice. We seek to walk out Rev. King’s dream of looking at the content of character, not the color of skin. The election of Sen. Obama may have proven that an African American can get elected, but it doesn’t show that we’ve gotten beyond voting for someone because of the color of their skin. I am sure that many, perhaps Obama and his wife themselves, still think that a large percentage of Americans are racist, especially among those 50+ million who refused to vote for the one.
    I guess it is some evidence that an African-American can achieve anything, even president, and that’s good. But people will still believe what they want. They can say we criticize Obama just because of race, that just because he was treated fairly doesn’t mean that all are treated fairly. People who thought racism was a problem can still think racism is a problem

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  176. McCain was always quick to publicly denounce what he thought were unfair attacks on Obama, but there was deafening silence from The One over the vicious, scorch the earth attacks on Sarah Palin and her family, especially the “Trig is not Sarah’s baby!” stuff.

    The above is what sealed the deal for me as far as my assessment of Obama. That he, a husband and father, would not speak up and blast the MSM for wretched attacks of this nature revealed his true character. He didn’t have the brass to do what was right and slap down the hand that fed him: the MSM. He made a clear to choice to look the other way because he needed the media to bring it home.

    Dana (79a78b)

  177. I take Obama will be ‘centrist’ and even pleasing to the thoughtful Republicans (a minority) like McCain.

    If Obama is judged as “centrist,” it probably will be from the perspective of someone who’s very, very, very liberal. And if you were formerly a Republican, then I suspect you nonetheless leaned to the left on most matters, to the right on but just a few.

    Mark (411533)

  178. Foo Bar:

    I appreciate the sentiments in this post, but I was wondering whether you meant it when you called Obama “dishonest, low-life pondscum” a few months ago?

    I think I said in the post, Foo Bar: “We’ve said some spirited things about Obama in the heat of battle, and we’ve meant them.”

    Yeah, I sure was angry at Obama for that dishonest statement he made about Gov. Palin. And I express myself with less care in comments (you linked a comment) than I do in posts. And yeah, I meant that at the time. If I had it to say over, I would hate the sin more than the sinner; i.e. I would say that is a dishonest, low-life, pondscum thing to say.

    And you know what? If you keep hunting up quotes of mine where I said mean things about Obama (oh, I’m sure there are more), you’ll remind me of more and more bad things he did. Who knows? Maybe you can do what the Republicans here have been unable to do: convince me that he truly is a bad man.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  179. Dana – Obama did make a statement about how the families, and especially the children should be out of bounds. It seemed kind of self-serving to me, especially in light of the fact that the media and the Left ignored it.

    JD (008a90)

  180. Mark – datalessdave was never a Republican. The only way he was ever a Republican is if you redefine the word to mean Marxist.

    JD (008a90)

  181. JD

    Obama did indeed say that families should be left alone, without ever denouncing certain charges — like Trig being Bristol’s baby instead of Sarah’s — as lies. And he never followed up his singular statement, either with another warning or with behavior showing he meant it.

    Funny how the only time reporters got kicked off the plane was when their newspapers endorsed McCain.

    Darleen (187edc)

  182. Darleen – I am not defending the dirty little socialist. I was just pointing out that he did say something. I made no judgment on whether or not he meant it, or that he took no follow-up to get his people to actually pay attention to the standards he set out.

    JD (008a90)

  183. As far as electing an African American as President, I’m concerned it will not really mean much at all.

    I recall being naive enough back in 1992 to assume that social, cultural and political changes in America since the Los Angeles riots of 1965 had been significant enough that a repeat of such fanaticism was not likely to occur, such as following the verdict of the cops charged with beating Rodney King.

    No such luck.

    However, the election of Barack Obama to the White House really is a symbolic victory above and beyond the rest. But I suspect that the warm, fuzzy feelings engendered by such a sea change will lose a lot of sparkle in a few years, and leftist sentiments throughout America (particularly in the African-American community) will rear their ugly head all over again.

    And so eventually a variety of Americans will start shouting “it’s racist to not give President Obama more benefit of the doubt!!! It’s racist to not be more positive towards, and happy with, President Obama. It’s bigoted to criticize President Obama!! It’s a return to the era of Jim Crow to say that Obama shouldn’t be re-elected!!!”

    Martyr-ville to the 10th degree.

    Mark (411533)

  184. There’s no way not to have this come off as other than condescending, but I was impressed with this. It’s not just generosity, but common sense. Maybe even an implicit acknowledgement of the highly selective and carefully stage-managed nature of many negative claims that come out against many politicians during elections (against either party).

    I don’t really feel that I owe a public official any greater deference than a private citizen, so I can’t say that this declaration will move me to be gentler to Republican political figures. But it does sort of inspire me to be less obnoxious to you, personally. Not a deal, just a welcome renunciation from Manchieanism, serving as a good sign for the utility of civil debate.

    It’s hard to discuss complexity with zealots, so we imitate them. And polarization self-perpetuates; and if insults were bullets, comment boards would be Yugoslavia.

    glasnost (88b245)

  185. Don’t say that too loud, glasnost, or Jeff Goldstein will accuse me of seeking a “pat on the back” from you and yours. (Oh, wait: he already did.)

    I still think the guy’s going to govern from the far left, and has shown no real tendency toward moderation — though he talks a good game.

    Man, would I love to be proved wrong.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  186. and has shown no real tendency toward moderation

    You folks are too kind 😉

    As happyfeet would say, he is a dirty socialist what wants to take your monies.

    JD (008a90)

  187. You know, I for one am disgusted with people advancing Obama’s cause against all available evidence. All the date indicates Obama IS NOT a good man. He isn’t a centrist, or a pragmatist. If Patterico has some secret treasure trove that indicates he isn’t the handmaiden of Ayers and the disciple of Wright, then produce it.

    Of course, that treasure trove doesn’t exist. Patterico just went soft-headed due the hopey-changiness of it all. So his wishful thinking about what kind of man he hopes Obama is trumps the need for evidence. Which sums up Obama’s campaign to a T.

    You’re a little late to the game, Patterico. But congrats on your conversion. Me, on the other hand, I plan on holding out at least until they have to waste the gas to drive me to the re-education camp.

    Steve (a5ad01)

  188. It’s too bad your commenters are unable to follow your example. I think the comments section here reinforces what was never in doubt to anyone who saw the Clinton years – loathing, contempt, and vindictive intolerance knows no political party. We’re as 100% certain that it’s your team who wins the prize for nasty, dishonest, lunacy as you are that it’s our team who wins. Realistically, we all consume selectively the information that reinforces what we already believe. No one’s keeping anything like an accurate score. No two people would even agree on how to begin the scoring.

    glasnost (88b245)

  189. I’m banned from Jeff Goldstein’s site, because he wrote a work of short fiction about some white celebrity I’ve never heard of being date raped with a bottle by a gang of black guys, purporting to be making some kind of point about multicultural guilt, and I called him an a**hole to his face for it. It was sadism porn with a thin layer of parable.

    I play by eye for an eye. I’m civil to civil people. I don’t know Jeff Goldstein personally, and blogosphering is not beanbag, but my opinion is that he’s A) very smart and B) even by blogopshere standards, a warped guy who’s been indulging his basest emotions for a little too long. And I don’t say that about all conservative commentators.

    glasnost (88b245)

  190. Wow. I’m a bloody-minded terrorist, a “warped guy who’s been indulging his basest emotions for a little too long.”

    Does that mean Patterico will show up here to call me a good man?

    And no, glasnost, you never called me an a**hole to my face. Hell, you don’t even use your own name.

    But the post in question was from the Shannon Elizabeth Comments on the News series, the “gang of black guys” was, if I remember correctly, the Sugar Hill gang (plus a couple dwarves), and Shannon consented to the sex, because she didn’t want to offend her suitors.

    Some call that “sadism porn with a thin layer of parable.” I call it absurdism with a specific politic point.

    Oh. And it’s truly funny to see datadave here slurping on Patterico.

    When you eventually ban him, Patrick, he’ll write you a very friendly email wishing you the best and claiming he really enjoys your site, then he’ll go around bashing you wherever he’s allowed to post.

    A real prince, that one is.

    Jeff G (735284)

  191. Does that mean Patterico will show up here to call me a good man?

    Actually, yes. I think you are.

    You haven’t given me any credit for good motivations all day long. You consistently assume that I’m saying what I’m saying for some pretentious and insincere effect.

    But I’ve been reading you for years, Jeff, and I’d rather not write you off in a day just because you’re currently pissing me off — even though you seem to be willing to write me off in a day, and give me no credit for any of my past conservative views. All of a sudden I have no motivation in life, according to you, other than to suck up to leftists that I don’t particularly like anyway.

    I’m willing to be patient with this and assume this is all a phrase. After all: you’re pissed off, I’m pissed off; we’re all pissed off — because Obama is going to ruin the courts and screw up a lot of other stuff. So we’re mad.

    But you’re still a good man. An occasional asshole, sure. But a good man.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  192. Someone’s lost their mind.

    Sorry, bub, using the judicial system to try and silence your critics, taking illegal contributions and, in fact, encouraging them, condoning the registration of gold fish and dead people and ditching your friends so you can prosper is _not_ the act of a Good Man.

    A Good Man says what he means and means what he says, he’d rather die than win by cheating and he’d never throw his friends under the bus for his own benefit. A Good Man takes care of his family…his extended family like his brother and aunt…and never simply uses them and then dumps them like a used condom.

    Obama is not a Good Man.

    You list _all_ these faults and more yet still call him a good man? Did you fall down last night and bump your head?

    sheesh.

    Quilly Mammoth (ff49e7)

  193. Hey Patterico…

    Tensions are high. The “purity above all” Republicans have made a horrifying discovery: Obama is worse for their side than McCain. But many among the “base” held their nose and voted for Obama, or for Barr, or sat out the election.

    So here we are. I remember 1992, so I am not surprised.

    So, when you wish for the best, given what has happened, many people will be irritated, because of this knowledge that, as usual, Republican infighting cost us dearly. Just as infighting has cost the Democrats from time to time.

    The trolls aren’t helping, either.

    Nothing we can do about situation, or the trolls, either. But this is a sign that the Right will need to organize, and “sell” their product to the public. The time of blaming Bush or the RNC or McCain or whatever is over. All the folks who couldn’t stand McCain should work very hard to create the image of a Republican party they would like to see. And one that the American public will like as well.

    Me, I voted for McCain, but I am happy to join them in the battle to build a Republican Party of the 21st Century.

    We should look forward, not back.

    As for Mr. Goldstein, I recommend you buy his armadillo a drink. It’s a proven winning strategy. I hear stories that he has been known to steal the ‘dillo’s drink from time to time, but I think those are just stories.

    He loves his armadillo.

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  194. Let me refine my comments:

    #

    I truly want to give him a chance to be “my” president and will strive mightily to do that for as long as I can. My efforts to do that will be made much more difficult by the lefts likely perpetual blaming of GWB for every exisiting and future problem and ascribing racism to any criticism of Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama did not earn my vote; he now needs to earn my trust.

    Comment by Old Coot — 11/5/2008 @ 7:54 am

    I understand the wishful thinking. But that’s all it is; wishful thinking. That’s what kept occurring to me throughout the campaign. Whenever Charles Krauthammer said that “of course” Obama wasn’t as radical as his pastor or “Christo” Buckley said Obama was a centrist because he secularly prayed it was so, and now Patterico with his “good man” declaration, I want to know where you get your drugs? Because I’m not on board with the wishfulhopeychangey cult yet. So I still would appreciate something formerly known as evidence. Perhaps, if I may be so bold, a fact.

    I won’t hold my breath. Feel free to cast aspersions on my ancestry and patriotism for DARING to ask the question. Namely, how the hell, Patterico, in defiance of all available facts did you arrive at that particular conclusion?

    After all, it’s a brave new world. Naturally, it’s unnatural to ask it you have a source upon which you’ve based your remarkable insight into Obama’s character, which you preemptively declare to be good.

    Steve (a5ad01)

  195. “All the folks who couldn’t stand McCain should work very hard to create the image of a Republican party they would like to see. And one that the American public will like as well.”

    Let’s start by saying that Obama isn’t a good man! Call him a con man and a thief; that’ll endear us to the public.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  196. Indeed, Patterico. And there is this horrible image from Greek mythology: we should be careful not to become what we detest in others.

    But perhaps you and I aren’t pure enough for the Republican Party?

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  197. Indeed, Patterico. And there is this horrible image from Greek mythology: we should be careful not to become what we detest in others.

    But perhaps you and I aren’t pure enough for the Republican Party?

    Eric Blair (a723e0)

  198. Let’s start by saying that Obama isn’t a good man! Call him a con man and a thief; that’ll endear us to the public.

    How about not calling him anything? How about labeling him neither “good man” or “bad man”? Just leave him at a neutral distance.

    And if “con man” or “thief” are overly strong words to apply to the next occupant of the Oval Office, how about instead describing him as misguided, as too liberal (or leftwing), as someone prone to exhibiting very flaky, very unreliable, very screwball, very I-love-Jeremiah-Wright judgment?

    Mark (411533)

  199. Darleen, JD and Jeff are liars.

    Darleen, Obama did indeed defend Palin from attacks, saying, “my own mother had me when I was eighteen.” He said that when critics of Sarah’s parenting abilities wondered aloud about her ‘fittness’ as a mom, let alone a candidate. Duly noted in the rightwing press…and you lied saying he encouraged the evitable partisan exclamations over such a loud mouth “maverick”. Obama stood above the fray…and is recognised for his calm ability to avoid the nastiness observed in the crowd at McCain’s gracious concession speech. He was great but the booing wingnuts in the crowd were not. And you lied and said Obama attacked Palin like the wingnuts attack him. Liar.

    JD, full of shit as usual. I was a great supporter of Nixon and Goldwater…although before voting age. Politics comes young in my family. Obama’s got my offspring excited while in grade school. JD, liar.

    Jeff, lies about how he was ‘attacked’ by demented leftists and his employment curtailed in academia by leftists. It’s his own demonstrative inability to tolerate those who disagree with him that limits his employment. He hated McCain a few months back and then became a avid supporter of the McCain/Palin ticket. Couldn’t help himself. Has repeatedly called Ron Paul an antiSemite, etc, etc. Liar.

    Good luck fighting with the far Right-Wingers. They’re a despicable lot but a lot of it is fun to watch (Jeff and friends) and a worry for someone like me who is a little paranoid about what they’ll do during another Democratic presidency. Alas, Timothy McVie will probably have many followers yet again. I consider jeff to be only a cowardly version of McVie. A Terrorist of words. btw, Jeff never emailed me back or acknowledged my email until he used it on some partisan bashing with lying devoting a post on his site to someone he’s always name-called and despised. I had been kind to him even sending twenty bucks his way…..but never received anything but criticism and attacks from his and others. He even lies about banning me…blocks me and then unblocks me as I supply something to talk about for his advertizers to get more traffic from. When he bans the Trolls he hates, his traffic goes down and then he unblocks said trolls. I’d care less but the drama there is so fun to read. He also has posted words with my nom. on his site and later deleted them. He’s very thinskinned among other things. I acknowledge the entertainment at PW. And the Evil there. It’s a political porn site.

    just saying so you’ll know. I only go there to feel the old “Naked Communist” kind of John Birch shit from my youth and to observe the common RightWing argumentation. Kind of gets boring in the more popular progressive sites that are so overpopulated. Also, Jeff is an easy mark to argue with and get him all aggitated. Funny seeing an intelligent educated person thinking that Obama is going to turn the USA into the USSA…oh, yeah. Cracks me up! More likely is the Right will start a civil war over a mild mannered slight raising of the Oligarch’s taxes for offensively high deficits caused by GW Bush’s regime. Many of the ‘oligarchs’ like Warren Buffett even think a little more taxes from him (he only pays less than 19 percent overall) would be patriotic. Jeff et al think that’s Socialism? That’s about all Obama is likely to do in the face of a potential Great Depression.

    datadave (1e1aed)

  200. demented dave is living is a Sim-world somewhere in mommy’s basement.

    You don’t get to cherry-pick Barry’s deeds, daveyboy.

    Obama stood by while his campaign painted Bill Clinton as a racist. While his campaign painted ANY criticism of him as racist.

    That alone makes Obama a man of questionable character.

    Obama’s election is historic and the bright side it gives final lie to the Left’s slander that America is a racist nation. Oh, I don’t think we will see any apologies, but at least I can laugh heartedly and point at such idiocy.

    Darleen (187edc)

  201. For all of the strides our country has supposedly made in race relations with the election of Obama, I can’t wait to see all of the blame-game tactics once Obama and his leftist illuminati ideals cause worldwide criticism and it is labeled as racist.

    Jeff (7082b1)

  202. Folks – I told you the first time that datalessdave commented that he was an idiot.

    JD (008a90)

  203. Anybody who loves his kids and his wife is a good decent person

    Lets showcase what Obama policies and actions not the insecurities of those that lost

    Face it McCain was the worst candidate in 100 years for the Republican Party geez the guy almost switched parties 4 years ago

    Lets move on to 2010

    Love to see the look on Pelosi’s face when the gavel is taken out of her hands

    EricPWJohnson (b61ef9)

  204. JD

    Personal attacks?

    you can personally attack someone, or You can point out why you think they are wrong

    One method demonstrates that you have no real response

    The other proves that you do

    I enjoy reading the latter from you as you rip logically people tomes to shreds

    good stuff

    EricPWJohnson (b61ef9)

  205. “I am not convinced Obama will get us past racial strife, and indeed, I worry that the opposite may happen.” I certainly hope we get all post-racial, but I’m also from Missouri. This statement reminds me of the predictions, following Sept 11, that we would now become a more serious nation, specifically abandoning our enthusiasm for reality television.

    sierra (4be1ff)

  206. #

    Patterico you make me sick!

    How can a basically decent guy be responsible for genocide?

    What the Hell am I taking about?

    Are we going to just forget about how he campaigned for Odinga in 2006 and had the foreign policy aide in his U.S. Senate office (Mark Lippert) act as intermediary during Odinga’s 2007 campaign.

    The campaign plan that Odinga laid out was developed in cooperation with Obama.

    Part of that campaign plan was to incite racial violence after Odinga lost. Such violence was responsible for nearly 1000 deaths.

    Did Obama encourage Odinga regarding this part of the strategy At the very least we know he didn’t condemn him or try to stop him from that path even though he had such a close connection to the campaign.

    Decent Man? To say so makes you a RACIST as you are saying that the deaths of these people since they were “just” black people in Africa doesn’t really matter.

    Steve (c3463f)

  207. Steve…let us know when you run out of paste.

    Another Drew (080b14)

  208. As an ongoing pattern, Obama will first do nearly everything to ban guns and make attempts to have the second amendment either repealed or so diminished that our right to have and own guns will become criminal, in spite of what our rights are. When all of these attempts fail, before the end of his first term, he will utilize the civilian forces that he has created to be as strong and powerful as our military, he will create a crisis of magnitude proportions that he will declare Marshall Law and rescind the elections of 2012. Thus keeping him and his cronies in power.

    Jake (d671ab)

  209. people are saying that obama is making bad decisions, but can they prove it? the most main reason why people think that he not good to make good decisions, is because he’s a black man making stand. standing up for people who are scared to stand up for themselves. people sit around complaining about what they could or cold have done, instead of doing something about. but then they steal have the ardansity to complain. if your not going to do something about it why bother compaining. Damage have been done to this economy before obama came to step in. so you cant blame obama for the damage that has already been done!

    lyenet (ee93f2)

  210. 210 you’re so right about people steal having the ardanisty to complain. I like your irregular ebonics spelling style. Apparently Freddie/Fannie Mac pals gave O!bama so much in way of contributions because they knew he would look out for the underclass and hold firm those tenets of truth, justice and the American way, all the while eschewing typical Chicago Way politics. One can see the grand results for the tenants in the Chicago Public Housing acts. Obama turned his back on the nasty ass developers and Rezko in order to ensure that the poorest among us had decent housing. Obama is the Man. He does without adequate fruit and arugula to the less fortunate, including that school in Kenya that he so generously donates to and his various relatives such as the dude living a trendy sort of beatnik life in a crude hut and his dear illegal auntie mooching off the Boston taxpayer in public housing. Really swell of Mr. Bush to make sure nothing untoward happens to her before O! takes office.
    One might also pray that Obama fashions an equitable plan to award all blacks reparations for past racist acts by those evil honky mofo’s that still manage to keep the good black man down, forcing him to oft abandon his children and subsist on inadequate supplies of malt liquor, inferior crack, skanky white ho’s with skinny asses, cheap bling and the low end Beemers. Boo hoo.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  211. Comment by madmax333 — 11/18/2008 @ 3:14 pm

    You’re getting just too good at this.
    Next thing we know, you’ll land a gig at The Nation.

    Another Drew (57c107)

  212. AD Repent your sins and prostrate yourself to the O!Messiah forthwith. You and your greedy, racist, ilk here at PP make my heart zinc, given that you steal have the ardansity to strive to bring down a proud black man who is brighter, more loquacious, more personable, more educated, more sensitive and intuitive than the lot of you. Thanks god for good people like love2008, oriam, peter and the rest of the gifted and highly nuanced liberal crew here are able to stymie your nattering nabob of negativity knuckleheads spewing venom about a really good and charitable fresh prince of bill ayers icon.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  213. Comment by madmax333 — 11/18/2008 @ 4:06 pm

    You know, if you keep this up, Bobby Wexler is going to start thinking of you as his best bud.

    Another Drew (57c107)

  214. Ad- Next to Obama, Bobby Wexler is my main man. Seventy seven percent of Jews voted for Obama. Ninety percent of American Muslims voted for O! and only 2% for McCain. Meanwhile Zogby poll shows 57% of O! voters thought GOP controls Congress and only 12% are aware that O’s policies would cause energy prices to skyrocket. 94% knew Palin had a preggers daughter and 86% knew that GOP spent $150k on Palin’s wardrobe. The Obama-fellating media did a swell job spreading the real worthy news.

    I need to find out just where Wexler’s mom-in-law lives so I can cruise his neighborhood and strive for a tingle down my leg. Btw, I find very few Japs who didn’t fall head over heels for Obama. Seriously, the wenches are signing their e-mails with variations on obamamama and rubbing his victory in.

    Does anyone have a clue from which rock lyenet originated? Is American educkashun really that bad or is he one of dem furriners driving a cab?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  215. Seventy seven percent of Jews voted for Obama. Ninety percent of American Muslims voted for O

    …and the Lion shall lay down with the lamb…

    When reality hits, it’s going to be a real bitch!
    But, it’s going to be all your fault for not explaining the facts of life to these over-hormoned teen-agers.

    Another Drew (57c107)


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