Patterico's Pontifications

9/17/2008

Obama and his media pals mislead on Wall Street turmoil

Filed under: General — Karl @ 12:09 pm

[Posted by Karl]

The Washington Post claims:

A decade ago, Sen. John McCain embraced legislation to broadly deregulate the banking and insurance industries, helping to sweep aside a thicket of rules established over decades in favor of a less restricted financial marketplace that proponents said would result in greater economic growth.

Now, as the Bush administration scrambles to prevent the collapse of the American International Group (AIG), the nation’s largest insurance company, and stabilize a tumultuous Wall Street, the Republican presidential nominee is scrambling to recast himself as a champion of regulation to end “reckless conduct, corruption and unbridled greed” on Wall Street.

That is a selective rendering of history, to say the least.  McCain did not even vote on the final version of the Financial Services Modernization Act in 1999.  He did vote for the original Senate bill, which Pres. Bill Clinton threatened to veto in no small part because the original Senate Bill “would dilute requirements that banks make loans to minorities, farmers and others who have had little access to credit.”  In contrast, Sen. Joe Biden voted against the original Senate bill but voted for the final version — presumably in part because it kept open the pipeline for those riskier loans. 

Moreover, in 2005, McCain was pushing the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act to rein in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and require more stringent regulation by the Department of Housing and Urban Development, by which time Barack Obama — who did nothing — was on his way to becoming a top recipient of of donations from Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Wall Street firms enmeshed in the sub-prime mortgage mess. (Indeed, the biggest chunk of industry donations to Camp Obama comes from the Finance, Insurance & Real Estate (FIRE) sector — just edging out Lawyers & Lobbyists.)  So McCain did not suddenly embrace this issue; if anyone has, it is Obama, who is grasping for an issue to regain the lead in the public opinion polls with less than 50 days until the election.

The disingenuous WaPo hit piece furthers Obama’s attempt to make the current Wall Street turmoil a partisan issue, though as Megan McArdle points out, the Democratic talking points in this regard are “supertwaddle.”  She also delivers a gentle smackdown to both her deranged colleague Andrew Sullivan and Obama over the notion that either Clinton or Bush could have done much to head off the current situation.  Both of those McCardle posts should be must-reads, as they also largely debunk the notion that the Financial Services Modernization Act is a major factor.   

I would be both more charitable and less charitable to the Clinton and Bush Administrations than McArdle in certain respects.  As the Village Voice recently noted:

Andrew Cuomo, the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country’s current crisis. He took actions that—in combination with many other factors—helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments. He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded “kickbacks” to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans. Three to four million families are now facing foreclosure, and Cuomo is one of the reasons why.

Moreover, the Voice piece points out that Fannie and Freddie fueled the private market for these practices as well (as did cheap money, from here and abroad).  To be fair, many of the Cuomo impulses were amplified by HUD during the Bush years, though only after the Bush Administration proposed what the New York Times called “the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis,” only to see it fail in the face of bipartisan opposition.

Those who attempt to make the current troubles on Wall Street a GOP scandal or comment on Bush Administration policy have to contend with the reality that the FSMA passed the Senate by a 90-8 vote and passed the House by a vote of 362-57, with support from Harry Reid, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, etc.  Conversely, efforts to reform Fannie and Freddie withered in the face of bipartisan opposition.

Nor are Barack Obama’s hands clean on the issue.  In addition to the tens of millions in donations taken from the FIRE sector, Obama’s national finance chair was an owner and board chair of Superior Bank of Chicago, which pioneered sub-prime lending, developing the financial instruments that helped set the stage for the current sub-prime meltdown.  His campaign fundraising bundlers include: Louis Susman, Michael Froman and J. Michael Schell of Citigroup; Steve Koch of Credit Suisse; Bruce Hayman, David Heller, Eric Schwartz, and Todd Williams of Goldman Sachs; Mark Gilbert, Christine Forester, John Rhea, Nadja Fidelia, and Theodore Janulis of Lehman; and Robert Wolf of UBS Americas.  Such bundlers help make up a more loosely defined “national finance committee,” whose members are are made to feel part of its inner workings through weekly conference calls and quarterly meetings, advance copies of his speeches, access to his top advisers, opportunities to influence the campaign’s message, and so on.  During the primaries, Obama’s proposals were more industry friendly than either Hillary Clinton or John Edwards.  And Camp Obama has been seeking advice on mortgage and housing policy from no less than disgraced former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Delano Raines.

Thus, Obama’s desperate attempt to make a bipartisan problem into a partisan issue goes beyond dishonest into the hypocritical, as is the WaPo’s bizarre attempt to portray McCain as the opportunist — though neither is as bizarre as Biden trying to blame it on the Bush tax cuts.

(h/t Memeorandum.)

– Karl

102 Responses to “Obama and his media pals mislead on Wall Street turmoil”

  1. “attempt to make a bipartisan problem into a partisan issue”

    So I guess you’re saying the GOP is the a party of more government regulation.

    Hmmmm. I never would have guessed since they have controlled the Congress since 94 and did absolutely nothing except deregulate.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  2. In 1999, John McCain voted for passage of the Senate version of a bill that would eliminate current barriers erected by the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act and other laws that impede affiliations between banking, securities, insurance and other firms. The bill also would exempt small, non-urban banks from the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), revise the Federal Home Loan Bank system and require that owners of automated teller machines (ATMs) provide notice on the ATM and on-screen of any charges imposed for the use of the terminal. The bill passed 54-44. [S. 900, Vote #105, 5/6/99]

    jharp (f4bed7)

  3. Jharp,

    No, I’m stating as fact that the FSMA passed on an overwhelmingly bipartisan basis and that McCain was one of the few who at least tried to rein in the GSEs. Try refuting either one of those facts.

    Karl (f07e38)

  4. jharp#2:

    Try reading my post, in which I expressly state that McCain voted for the original version of the bill. He did not vote on the final version, and I provide you the link for it.

    Karl (f07e38)

  5. Try refuting either one of those facts.

    Karl – harpy does not deal in facts. They get in the way of Teh Narrative.

    JD (41e64f)

  6. JD,

    Yeah, j missed the 2006 election also. Go figure.

    Karl (d24934)

  7. “He did not vote on the final version”

    And you consider this a plus?

    Are you aware when it is known they have the votes to pass something frequently they do not bother to show up to vote.

    McCain clearly supported both versions.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  8. McCain clearly supported both versions.

    Cite? You know, actual statements from him saying he supported both versions?

    Not saying he did or didn’t, just looking for something beyond your supposition.

    Rob Crawford (6c262f)

  9. …and you devined this through what?
    Chicken bones?
    Tea leaves?
    Bamboo sticks?
    Smoke curls?

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  10. jharp score so far:

    1. Strawman;
    2. True, but misleading cut-and-paste job;
    3. Speculation.

    Karl (d24934)

  11. Wall Street Update.

    Dow down 450 points

    Goldman Sachs down 20% ($10 billion retirement savings gone)

    Morgan Stanley don 28% ($10 billion retirement savings gone)

    Washington Mutual is next (to 0) (taxpayers already on the hook for that one)

    And the CEO of AIG to get $5 million severance package.

    Go trickle down economics! Vote republican!

    jharp (f4bed7)

  12. GSE reform bill in 2005

    When the House was run by the GOP.
    Why would a GOP WH give a GOP Congress the Bird?
    Sounds like Mr.Oxley, who’s signature legislation is chasing IPO’s overseas and has cost his current employer $Billions, is a little bitter.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  13. Smacks of JAR ^^^

    Icy Truth (a38535)

  14. Oh, and regulation?

    We don’t need no stinking regulation! Just ask Senator McCain.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  15. #11, that is.

    Icy Truth (a38535)

  16. harpy would be squawking like a parrot if these same companies were turning a 15% profit margin. It is a nasty little mean-spirited troll.

    JD (41e64f)

  17. #4 – Karl

    Try reading my post

    – How . . . DARE you demand that jharp read anything beyond the title of the thread and the comments of those he opposes? Hey! You have your process and he has his.

    Icy Truth (a38535)

  18. god made me do it,

    Yeah, I take the Bush WH to task in the post, though they did take a run at the issue starting in 2003. And also noted, McCain backed the 2005 reform effort. And as Another Drew notes, Oxley is perhaps not the most reliable barometer, either.

    Karl (d24934)

  19. It is interesting to watch the blind rats following the Obamacheese. jharp and i see truth (no Diogenes here) fit the mould. Obama was the recipient of lots of $$$$ from Fannie and Fredie. Kept the regulators off their back while former members of the Clinton admin stole us blind and they want use to believe is is Bush’s fault or it is somehow related to McCain. A non-partisan commission to investigate and punish should and will be established. One must wonder how much of the money Obama gets is delivered to hils close friend William Ayers and the Weather Underground.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (e18128)

  20. “harpy would be squawking like a parrot if these same companies were turning a 15% profit margin.”

    I’ve got no problem with people making piles of money. I’m all for it. It’s the dishonesty and deceit and misleading everyday American’s to part them from their hard earnned retirement savings that pisses me off. And republican policy enables it to happen. (80′s Savings and Loan deregulation and subsequent bailout?)

    “It is a nasty little mean-spirited troll.”

    Actually I’m a very decent guy and well liked within the community. And get this. I’m an entrepreneur too! Stated my business from nothing and 26 years later still going strong.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  21. Bullshit. When oil companies make less than 10% profit margins, you squeal like a stuck pig. You only approve of the right people, and the right industries making money. You are aggressively hypocritical. You may think you are a decent guy, but your actions suggest otherwise.

    JD (41e64f)

  22. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the legislation that WaPo is excoriating 1) made it possible for Bank of America to buy out Merrill Lynch this week, thereby averting a broader crisis, and 2) was known as Gramm-Leach-Bliley, the “Leach” being former Congressman Jim Leach, a founding member of Republicans for Obama.

    NYC Lawyer (b06dde)

  23. Amazing how they get away with convuluting facts eh jharp?

    Oiram (983921)

  24. McCain interview shortly before the New Hampshire primary.

    “I don’t know the dimensions of this. It’s hard to know what the dimensions are…. [I]n this whole new derivative stuff, and SIBs and all of this kind of new ways of packaging mortgages together and all that is something that frankly I don’t know a lot about.

    “But I do rely on a lot of smart people that I have that are both in my employ and acquaintances of mine. And most of them did not anticipate this. Most of them, I mean I can find some that did. But, a guy that’s on my staff named Doug Holtz-Eakin, who was once the head of the Office of Management and Budget, said that there was nervousness out there. There’s nervousness. There was nervousness that we had such a long period of prosperity without a downturn because of the history of our economy. But I don’t know of hardly anybody, with the exception of a handful, that said ‘wait a minute, this thing is getting completely out of hand and is overheating.’

    “So, I’d like to tell you that I did anticipate it, but I have to give you straight talk, I did not.”

    jharp (f4bed7)

  25. We don’t need no stinking regulation! Just ask Senator McCain.

    He. Did. Not. Vote. To. Deregulate. You. Douchnozzle.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  26. Amazing how they get away with convuluting facts eh jharp?

    Not one of you responded in any way substantively to a direct question from Karl above. Not even close. Until such point in time, we will continue to mock. It is all you are worth.

    JD (41e64f)

  27. In fact, McCain called for better oversight and regulation of Fannie/Freddie back in 2005.

    Dems blocked such a move.

    Try again?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  28. Scott – Facts. They get in the way of Teh Narrative.

    JD (41e64f)

  29. “Bullshit. When oil companies make less than 10% profit margins, you squeal like a stuck pig.”

    Bullshit, right back at ya. And I suppose you’re a big fan of $4.00 gas sold by oligopolies. And wars for oil are probably right up your alley too.

    “You only approve of the right people, and the right industries making money.”

    Right on that one. I only approve of the honest ones doing well.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  30. He. Did. Not. Vote. To. Deregulate. You. Douchnozzle.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 9/17/2008 @ 1:39 pm

    McCain the deregulator.

    http://progressiveaccountability.org/2008/09/17/john-mccain-the-deregulator/#more-102

    jharp (f4bed7)

  31. Yes. He was ONLY talking about lenders. Only.

    Seriously, being that stupid should be painful…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  32. Amazing how they get away with convuluting facts eh jharp?

    Comment by Oiram — 9/17/2008 @ 1:38 pm

    I think those days are about to end.

    The 2006 election was a significant start.

    What was that saying by W? You can fool all of the people most of duh – some of the people duh part of -

    You can’t get fooled again.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  33. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III —

    It is interesting to watch the blind rats following the Obamacheese. jharp and i see truth (no Diogenes here) fit the mould.
    – And you’re accusing me of WHAT exactly?

    Icy Truth (db1823)

  34. And I suppose you’re a big fan of $4.00 gas sold by oligopolies. And wars for oil are probably right up your alley too.

    Stay away from your suppositions and assumptions. Your gut does not serve you well. Quit arguing with those voices in your head.

    JD (41e64f)

  35. You can’t get fooled again.

    – Look at who you nominated! You’ve already been fooled again.

    Icy Truth (db1823)

  36. I’m tired of going around the blogs trying to set the jharps of the world straight on all of this. Perhaps he will pay attention to a nonpartisan source, The Motley Fool, which explains it all very succinctly in this article.

    What really happened and who is responsible

    Pay particular attention to Amgelo Mozilo. He turned Countrywide into the biggest subprime lender and started the race to the bottom in lending standards as he tried to corner the market. Fannie Mae enabled him by buying all of Countrywide’s subprime MBS. Fannie Mae enabled the subprime boom to happen, creating gigantic risk which has ultimately ended up in the lap of the tapayers, just as its Republican critics warned about for years.

    When the subprime market turned, Fannie and Freddie refused to mark down the value of those subprime securities, as every other bank and mortgage company had to do, resulting in billions of losses for them but the appearance of continued health for Fannie and Freddie. They have probably been insolvent for over a year. But the government had no legal authority to do anything about it, thanks to the Democrats who bottled up the legislation.

    The financial system in the U.S. was a house of cards, and the first floor holding it all up was Fannie and Freddie. And Democrats who ran those companies and their pals in Congress made sure that were was no serious regulation of them. This all began WAY before FSMA was passed, and FSMA had nothing to do with it.

    rockmom (e42807)

  37. jharp,

    Pop quiz: In 2005, John McCain backed a bill that would have increased regulation and oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. True or False?

    Karl (d24934)

  38. A reader writes:

    My wife and I are in our 40s. We’ve been putting money away in our respective 401k plans since 1999. When Bush took office the Dow was around 10,659 (approx.). Today the Dow is approaching the same level as when Bush took office (by contrast, Clinton added about 7000 points to the DJIA). We have lost 7 years of savings. How are we supposed to make that up? What if another Republican is elected? Another 8 years of this and we’ll be in our late 40s with practically nothing saved for retirement and we’ll probably be sucked dry by the health insurance costs for our family of 3 (soon to be 4) since, under McCain, it’s unlikely that employers will continue to provide coverage.

    On top of our retirement that’s disappearing, we’ve got to consider exploding day care, education, fuel, and other CPI costs while our income stagnates or declines. You guys think Europe, China, or Russia are gonna go down the tubes with us? Hell no, if Americans elect another Republican those countries are going to begin isolating the U.S. in an effort to protect their own economies. Republicans are right, the End Times are near.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  39. Pop quiz: In 2005, John McCain backed a bill that would have increased regulation and oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. True or False?

    Comment by Karl — 9/17/2008 @ 2:01 pm

    Why don’t you just tell me. I don’t do quizzes.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  40. Karl,

    This is a well-written, well-thought out, and well-sourced essay. Thank you for posting it.

    DRJ (0754ed)

  41. let’s have a special prosecutor- the dem’s have the narrative and the cover-they always do have the cover- where are the rep’s with any balls?- this is politics-we need a pit-bull

    ddessk (359493)

  42. McCain’s Fannie and Freddie Connections
    John McCain railed against Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac on the campaign trail today, saying that the CEOs that led the lenders to ruin “deserve nothing” and should have to pay back their severance packages. In an Wall Street Journal op-ed co-bylined by his vice presidential pick, Sarah Palin, McCain suggested bold reforms for Fannie and Freddie that would “terminate future lobbying, which was one of the primary contributors to this great debacle.”

    If that’s the case, McCain should look first to his campaign staffers as the cause of that debacle. One of them was Fannie Mae’s head of lobbying, and spread tens of millions of dollars around Washington in the form of lobbying contracts. A number of McCain staffers were on the receiving end of those contracts, collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars each from the lenders to rep their interests. And McCain’s campaign manager served as president of a lobbying association that fought to protect Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae from the sort of regulation that McCain is now proposing.

    In McCain’s op-ed in the Journal, he and Palin wrote:

    For years, Congress failed to act and it is deeply troubling that what we are seeing is an exercise in crisis management rather than sound planning, and at great cost to taxpayers.

    We promise the American people that our administration will be different. We have long records of standing up to special interests…

    But McCain’s own campaign staffers are those special interests, a fact that casts doubt on both McCain’s hiring judgment and his ability to pursue tough reforms of Fannie and Freddie.

    Aquiles Suarez, listed as an economic adviser to the McCain campaign in a July 2007 McCain press release, was formerly the director of government and industry relations for Fannie Mae. The Senate Lobbying Database says Suarez oversaw the lending giant’s $47,510,000 lobbying campaign from 2003 to 2006.

    And other current McCain campaign staffers were the lobbyists receiving shares of that money. According to the Senate Lobbying Database, the lobbying firm of Charlie Black, one of McCain’s top aides, made at least $820,000 working for Freddie Mac from 1999 to 2004. The McCain campaign’s vice-chair Wayne Berman and its congressional liaison John Green made $1.14 million working on behalf of Fannie Mae for lobbying firm Ogilvy Government Relations. Green made an additional $180,000 from Freddie Mac. Arther B. Culvahouse Jr., the VP vetter who helped John McCain select Sarah Palin, earned $80,000 from Fannie Mae in 2003 and 2004, while working for lobbying and law firm O’Melveny & Myers LLP. In addition, Politico reports that at least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, pocketing at least $12.3 million over the last nine years.

    For years McCain campaign manager Rick Davis was head of the Homeownership Alliance, a lobbying association that included Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, real estate agents, homebuilders, and non-profits. According to Politico, the organization opposed congressional attempts at regulation of Fannie and Freddie, along the lines of what John McCain is currently proposing. In his capacity of president of the group, Davis went on record in 2003 and insisted that no further reform of the lenders was necessary, in contradiction to his current boss’s sentiments. “[Fannie and Freddie] are subject to an innovative and stringent risk-based capital stress test,” Davis wrote. “The toughest in the financial services industry.”

    At a campaign rally Wednesday morning in Fairfax, Virginia, John McCain said that the heads of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ought to give back the millions of dollars they’ve earned. What about the lobbyists who helped Fannie and Freddie game the system? Maybe McCain can ask them — at the next campaign strategy meeting.

    http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/09/9663_mccain_fannie_freddie.html

    jharp (f4bed7)

  43. jharp,

    I already did tell you, with a hyperlink. Try reading. But until you are willing to honestly answer that question, no one is going to take you even remotely seriously.

    Karl (d24934)

  44. jharp

    re: #43. As pointed out in the original post Obama’s campaign teems with Fannie/Freddie-friendly folk as well. That’s the point, which I mention as you clearly did not bother to read it. But at least McCain actually tried to do something about the problem in 2005.

    Karl (d24934)

  45. “Why don’t you just tell me. I don’t do quizzes.”

    In other words, you never answer a question directly.

    “…and you devined this through what?”

    Harpy reads his fecal matter each morning – he thinks it’s kinda like reading tea leaves, but without all those bothersome theatrical contrivances. Straight from the source to his mouth.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  46. Not only that, but in his VERY few years in the US Sentate, he’s become the #2 recipient of Freddie/Fannie donations… Only Sen Dodd has gotten more, and he CHAIRS the COMMITTEE that is supposed to provide oversight of them.

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  47. Karl – Explaining things to jharp is like teaching a pig how to sing. You know how that goes.

    Wilful ignorance, obtuseness, dishonesty and hostility are his stock in trade. At least datadave can occasionally be entertaining.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  48. I’d like you GOP apologists to kindly share the republican successes of the past 8 years.

    Record job losses?

    Blowing $1 trillion to empower Iran?

    Letting Bin Laden remain free to plot attacks?

    Record setting Wall Street bailouts?

    Getting 4,500 soldiers killed to empower Iran?

    Getting 40,000 soldiers wounded to empower Iran?

    New policy of torturing our prisoners?

    Getting rid of Habeus Corpus?

    Spying on Americans?

    $4 trillion in deficits?

    Bank failures?

    The New Orleans FEMA debacle?

    Ignoring warnings and allowing the worst terror attack in U.S. history?

    Which one is it?

    Yeah, the GOP has really worked it’s magic.

    Heckuva job!

    jharp (f4bed7)

  49. Epic fail on that glorious I-cannot-address-the-actual-topic list.

    Though on the upside, at least he doesn’t continually tell you you’re a racist for disagreeing with him. So, you know. That’s a plus.

    PCachu (e072b7)

  50. Based on #49, I repeat my point:

    Wilful ignorance, obtuseness, dishonesty and hostility are his stock in trade.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  51. “Stated my business from nothing and 26 years later still going strong”

    The hot dog cart is still in the same spot… but now we have relish!

    SteveG (71dc6f)

  52. Not seeing much in the way of GOP accomplishments.

    Just insults. Which is quite the usual when you’ve got nothing.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  53. I don’t understand all of this, I’ll be the first to admit.

    Wasn’t deregulation popular in the 90′s? I seem to recall that it was, but have no citations.

    Doesn’t that mean it is a bipartisan mess that McCain tried to get out of more recently than the Democrats?

    That seems to put McCain ahead on this one – is that an accurate conclusion? I know many here will agree with the conclusion, but I’d like to know if my reasoning is sensible

    KatAttack (edae44)

  54. In a few weeks we will make a choice that will decide our future.
    This time the stakes are much higher then most people could imagine
    I would like to point out some things You may already know with a new perspective.

    I follow a economist named bob proctor who has called the top and bottom of every market crash since the 70s correctly.
    He perfectly predicted the current real estate market meltdown ,and the picture he paints about what will happen in the next couple years
    Is terrifying. He thinks it could get worse then the great depression.
    Banks in the US are going under one after the other. Country wide the largest morgage bank in the world
    Bear Stearns and Lehman brothers , and Merrill Lynch which are 3 out of the top 5 wall street firms.
    And now Fanny and Freddy which hold 50 percent of the home loans in the United States.

    The goverment took them over because they are essentially bankrupt.
    If they didn’t the entire financially system would virtually shut down, the stock market would crash
    And we would suffer beyond what any of us have seen before
    The future of these companies will fall into the hands of our next president
    And all of our economic future depends on them reorganizing these companies right.

    Lehman, Merill Lynch, and Bear Sterns have survived for over 150 years and survived even the great depression
    They are important because the are the biggest engines of growth in america and
    they are connected to almost everything.
    The last time the real estate market numbers looked this bad was during
    The great depression and real estate often leads the way into major economic recessions.

    One out of 10 Americans is somewhere in the foreclosure process.
    During the last 8 years the average person saw there salary drop instead
    Of increase. These are all facts no one will argue with.
    The truth is we are only in the start of the worst economy we have seen in our generation
    and a very real possibility of another depression.

    Bush just like Mcain doesn’t understand the economy.
    That not just my opinion its his own words. Not only does he not understand how to fix it
    He does not understand exactly what is broken. Its no surprise that he doesnt. The people that make up these
    securities use complex math models very few people understand.
    They are basically bundles of thousand of loans some good and some bad that are then given rules based on quantitiative
    math. It will take the best and brightest minds in the world to get us out of this, and the same things bush and mcain have done for the last 8 years
    Have not worked so far and wont work in the future.

    If you do what you have always done then you will do get what you have always __________
    90 percent of the time they have voted the same.

    Please don’t just take my word for it Start to read up on some of this yourself. MSN money, elliot wave and, bloomberg
    Have tons of articles That prove we are in the heading into one of the worst economies any one has ever seen.

    So why are the polls even close then ?

    The chairman of mcains campaign recently said that people don’t vote on issues
    they vote on a personality composite which means. He is trying to sell personality instead
    of results.

    He believes people will vote against there own self interests.
    Lets teach him we are smarter then that and elect the ticket that can
    bring us back from the brink of a economic abyss.
    If you think i am kidding do your own home work you will find
    We are at the start of this mess not the end.

    Mcain admits in the year 2008 he cannot use a computer even to send email
    Its almost impossible then he will understand the complex securities such as cdos that are destroying wall street
    and the home values on your street.

    We are not bulletproof america it time to wake up and hold these people accountable.

    How many people that you go out and have drinks with would you really want running the country?
    Lets stand up and fight for our country now while it will still make a difference
    Lets elect Obama Biden 08

    kurt (9c1de6)

  55. kurt — how many different sites have you posted that cut&paste twaddle?

    wls (26b1e5)

  56. All I know is that Nancy ‘what me worry’ Pelosi had NOTHING to do with anything. Or something like that.

    Bel Aire (2fd7f7)

  57. The last few posts contain so much dispair over the future, I figure all of you guys are prime candidates for the firearms I sell; I’ll even throw in the single cartridge you’ll need.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  58. All my talkin points are belong to me!!!!

    ****** jharp ******

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  59. daleyrocks,

    Try the google for GOP accomplishments.

    I’m sure you can come up with something better than childish insults.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  60. “Is terrifying.”

    No, actually what is terrifying is that allegedly sentient beings would post such a ridiculous mishmash of rantings.

    “Which one is it?”

    Is there a heading in which we call you the winner of the all – time world’s biggest douche award? OK, I pick that one, then.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  61. Your arguments are always childish, that’s why we respond in kind.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  62. Sherrod Brown yesterday on the Senate floor first brought up McCain’s involvement in the Keating five scandal then went on.

    “It is not so much his economic proposals but his economic record,” Brown said of McCain. “His main adviser is Phil Gramm — he was his mentor in the Senate — and you just tie it all together. Of course John McCain supported the oil industry, he has oil lobbyists working for him. Of course John McCain supported these trade agreements, he has got Wall Street people working for him… It is all wrapped up together. John McCain is a creature of these interest groups in Washington. He is no maverick and, from the Keating Five on, his ethics have been questionable.”

    Ouch!

    jharp (f4bed7)

  63. jharp:

    Bullshit, right back at ya. And I suppose you’re a big fan of $4.00 gas sold by oligopolies. And wars for oil are probably right up your alley too.

    Personally, I’m a bigger fan of dumbasses who scream in a single sentence that the war in Iraq was all about oil, and blame the same administration who prosecuted it for the fact that gasoline is so expensive today, without recognizing the irony.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  64. It’s just keeps getting better.

    Governor Palin’s private yahoo e mail account has apparently been hacked.

    Too dam funny. A United States Governor running for Vice President of the United States is too dam dumb to not use a yahoo account for official business.

    It’ll be interesting what is forthcoming out of those e mails.

    Does that make you GOPers a tad edgy?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  65. “I’m a bigger fan of dumbasses who scream in a single sentence that the war in Iraq was all about oil, and blame the same administration who prosecuted it for the fact that gasoline is so expensive today, without recognizing the irony.”

    Please help. I don’t see the irony.

    Does it have anything to do with them blowing up the pipelines?

    jharp (f4bed7)

  66. Governor Palin’s private yahoo e mail account has apparently been hacked.

    It’ll be interesting what is forthcoming out of those e mails.

    I spoke too soon. I don’t think we’ll be seeing the content of those e mails.

    It is a federal crime to hack into someone’s e mail account.

    Nevertheless it was pretty dam dumb of her.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  67. Blaming the poor, people of color for getting loans for houses they couldn’t afford is the Right Wing Narrative and the evil Democrats forced banks to give bad mortages to such people. Joe Scarborough of MSNBC said that this morning more or less….loans to ‘dead beats’ are causing this crisis. If you buy into this theory, Karl, you are proving thor’s illogical criticism correct. I didn’t see racism before until I heard a whole range of Republicans blaming this crisis on the victims of usurous loans, variable rates jacked to the sky by crooked brokers, and esp. the “masters of the universe” jacking each other with false money based on future earnings from unsustainable financials based upon no money or ‘bad money’…(Read Bad Money by Kevin Phillips…then get back me, Karl et al.)

    Nothing could be further from the truth: fanny mae, poor people getting houses they couldn’t afford…that’s the false narrative..but Phil Gramm’s deregulation of the banks, hedge funds, etc….is the basic increase of corruption in Wall Street and since Gramm is McCain’s chief economic’s advisor McCain needs to called on his support for this disaster……and the deregulation of markets, Ayn Rand’s philosophy as practiced by alan greenspan and trickle down are much bigger reasons for this oncoming disaster.

    datadave (e0f125)

  68. Palin’s email…
    Go to PowerLine for further info.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  69. dd…
    When you can actually connect two or more cogent thoughts together, we will attempt to read your drivel.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  70. The FBI and Secret Service is investigating the hacking. In general, all the idiots who play these nasty games should be crucified. How is Palin dumb because her account got hacked? Why do so many clueless moonbats think they Palin will crash and burn? Why do Obambots fear her so damn much? Can’t wait for all the leftist trolls here to defecate in their panties when the idiot bastard’s son Obambi gets whipped by us racist hicks in flyover country. What venom did Baracky spew about his lessers at that fancy $28 k a plate no-media allowed shindig?

    I don’t watch it, but heard Cavuto blasted O’Reilly on the Factor last night for his populist bullshit, especially regarding oil companies. Am I the only who thinks all the cable news network clowns suck..the ones competing against one another as so-called analysts?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  71. “How is Palin dumb because her account got hacked?”

    Having her account hacked does not make her dumb.

    Conducting government business on a yahoo account does.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  72. “Blaming the poor, people of color for getting loans for houses they couldn’t afford is the Right Wing Narrative and the evil Democrats forced banks to give bad mortages to such people.”

    DD – Who should be blamed for people buying bigger houses than they can afford and financing them with bigger mortgages than can afford in your world? Baby Jesus?

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  73. Kudos to Karl for an outstanding post.

    #72 Madmaxx,

    I saw Cavuto on O’Reilly yesterday. Cavuto took him to task over his complaint that the price of a barrel of oil had fallen by a certain percentage (I don’t remember the exact amount)while gas prices per gallon had fallen only 7% in the same time period.

    Cavuto said that had gasoline prices risen at the same rate as oil we would have been paying something like $7.00 per gallon of gasoline.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  74. jharp…
    The report on P/L does not mention any AK business on this “private” acct.
    If you have other info, please link it so that we may be elucidated.
    Otherwise, you might consider shutting your pie-hole.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  75. In addition to the point already made by daleyrocks, I notice dd is very upset about Gramm, but not at all about Leach, who was given a prime speaking slot on the first night of the Democratic convention. And not upset about Obama seeking advice from Raines, whose Fannie Mae misstated earnings and lined his pockets with bonuses.

    Karl (1b4668)

  76. Gee Karl, do you think that might be because dd is just a hack,
    and hasn’t had an original thought since before the invention of fire?

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  77. Another Drew,

    Most likely. I doubt he could make the argument that the Village Voice is some racist rag, but it lays out at some length what went wrong at the GSEs. Not that dd will bother to read it.

    Karl (1b4668)

  78. #55 – kurt

    In a few weeks we will make a choice that will decide our future.
    – Partially. The choice of president does not wholly decide our collective future.
    This time the stakes are much higher then most people could imagine
    – Meaningless non sequiter. The stakes are as high as they ever are.
    I would like to point out some things You may already know with a new perspective.
    – We are quite familiar with left-wing perspective, thank you very little.
    I follow a economist named bob proctor who has called the top and bottom of every market crash since the 70s correctly.
    – Wait. Are you saying that the economy is cyclical, and that it’s actually possible to plot it on a graph and extrapolate information from it?
    He perfectly predicted the current real estate market meltdown ,and the picture he paints about what will happen in the next couple years Is terrifying.
    – So he’s amassed a personal fortune by playing the market in recent years, has he?
    He thinks it could get worse then the great depression.
    – Hard to credit, since it is nowhere close to that situation right now.
    Banks in the US are going under one after the other.
    – What, they can’t coordinate and all go under on the same day? How rude!
    Country wide the largest morgage bank in the world Bear Stearns and Lehman brothers , and Merrill Lynch which are 3 out of the top 5 wall street firms.
    – Is there a point to that list, other than to bring up Chris Dodd’s preferred lender (at below market rates)?
    And now Fanny and Freddy which hold 50 percent of the home loans in the United States.
    – Very good recitation of the news. Are we going to get to the “new perspective” part now?
    The goverment took them over because they are essentially bankrupt.
    – Guess not.
    If they didn’t the entire financially system would virtually shut down, the stock market would crash
    – Not true, but you keep going. You have a lot of personal energy.
    And we would suffer beyond what any of us have seen before
    – No fear-mongering here. Nope, none at all.
    The future of these companies will fall into the hands of our next president
    – It’s right there in the Constitution: the POTUS is the CEO of the economic powerhouses of the USA . . . or maybe it’s Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the USA; I forget which.
    And all of our economic future depends on them reorganizing these companies right.
    – Not directly, but it could be helpful.
    Lehman, Merill Lynch, and Bear Sterns [sic] have survived for over 150 years and survived even the great depression
    – Lehman Brothers – 158 years (Ding!), Merrill Lynch – 94 years (Gong!), Bear Stearns – 85 years (Gong!). Well, 1 out of 3 ain’t bad.
    They are important because the are the biggest engines of growth in america and they are connected to almost everything.
    – Wrong . . . and Wrong.
    The last time the real estate market numbers looked this bad was during The great depression and real estate often leads the way into major economic recessions.
    – The recession that some have claimed began a year ago but still hasn’t happened yet?
    One out of 10 Americans is somewhere in the foreclosure process.
    – One out of 100, but don’t let exaggerating by a factor of 10 stop you.
    During the last 8 years the average person saw there salary drop instead Of increase. These are all facts no one will argue with.
    – US Census Bureau Data:
    2007 $26,804
    2006 26,352
    2005 25,036
    2004 23,857
    2003 23,276
    2002 22,794
    2001 22,851

    The truth is we are only in the start of the worst economy we have seen in our generation and a very real possibility of another depression.
    – The truth is you are a radical alarmist who doesn’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
    Bush just like Mcain doesn’t understand the economy. That not just my opinion its his own words. Not only does he not understand how to fix it He does not understand exactly what is broken.
    – Certainly not your unbroken stream of babble.
    Its no surprise that he doesnt. The people that make up these securities use complex math models very few people understand.
    – So YOU are saying that it is unreasonable to expect someone outside the industry to understand it. Got it.
    They are basically bundles of thousand of loans some good and some bad that are then given rules based on quantitiative
    math.

    – You’re right. I don’t understand it; but then I have a hard time with made up words like “quantitiative”.
    It will take the best and brightest minds in the world to get us out of this, and the same things bush and mcain have done for the last 8 years Have not worked so far and wont work in the future.
    – Don’t worry. McCain will put Mitt on the job . . . all will be well.
    If you do what you have always done then you will do get what you have always __________
    – Do you actually want someone to fill in the blank? or rewrite the sentence so that it’s coherent?
    90 percent of the time they have voted the same.
    – Obama has voted the same as Bush (who does not vote, by the way) 40% of the time. Does this mean that he’s wrong on 2 out of every 5 votes?
    Please don’t just take my word for it
    – No problem there.
    Start to read up on some of this yourself. MSN money, elliot wave and, bloomberg Have tons of articles That prove we are in the heading into one of the worst economies any one has ever seen.
    – Keep a good thought.
    So why are the polls even close then ?
    Because your candidate sucks like a $2 whore with a cold sore in her tongue-ring hole.
    The chairman of mcains campaign recently said that people don’t vote on issues they vote on a personality composite which means. He is trying to sell personality instead of results.
    – He is telling the truth. Polls researching the reasons why voters make their picks back him up.
    He believes people will vote against there own self interests.
    – I believe you can learn the proper use of “there, their, they’re” if you crack open a grammar book.
    Lets teach him we are smarter then that and elect the ticket that can bring us back from the brink of a economic abyss.
    – We will. Don’t be surprised when you see who it is.
    If you think i am kidding do your own home work you will find We are at the start of this mess not the end.
    – Mess happens. It happened under Carter; it happened under Clinton . . .
    Mcain admits in the year 2008 he cannot use a computer even to send email
    – He isn’t physically capable, you insensitive bigot against the handicapped.
    Its almost impossible then he will understand the complex securities such as cdos that are destroying wall street and the home values on your street.
    – You have to be able to use a computer in order to understand how Wall Street works? How did Wall Street ever exist without computers?
    We are not bulletproof america it time to wake up and hold these people accountable.
    – What people?
    How many people that you go out and have drinks with would you really want running the country?
    – John McCain. I don’t have drinks WITH him, but I’ve certainly imbibed my share of beverages distributed by his wife’s business over the years.
    Lets stand up and fight for our country now while it will still make a difference
    – That’s right. Country First. . . . Say, that’s catchy. Somebody should adopt that for their official slogan.
    Lets elect Obama Biden 08
    – Let’s send Obama bin Biden back to the Senate, where they will do — relatively speaking — less damage.

    Icy Truth (b28aae)

  79. One need only look at the names of those who were CEOs of Fredie and Fannie to know who is responsible. Jamie Gorlick???, Jim Johnson??? If Gorlick had not been part of justice, 9/11 may have been avoided. Something about not being about to look at a computer belonging to a terrorist. Chime in cheese eaters. I see truth, I accuse you of being an obamite. With all that that means.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (e18128)

  80. Icy,

    Nicely done, but my fave is this:

    “I follow a economist named bob proctor who has called the top and bottom of every market crash since the 70s correctly.”

    Bob must be even wealthier than Bill Gates and Warren Buffett combined, must’nt he? He must have intersting ideas; I would like to subscribe to his newsletter — and I strongly suspect he has one.

    Karl (1b4668)

  81. The newest Mensa member wrote: Governor Palin’s private yahoo e mail account has apparently been hacked. Too dam [sic] funny. A United States Governor running for Vice President of the United States is too dam [sic] dumb to not use a yahoo account for official business.
    – Who said that she used her PRIVATE account for OFFICIAL business, tard? Oh, and what is the “funny” part?

    It is a federal crime to hack into someone’s e mail account. Nevertheless it was pretty dam dumb of her.
    – That’s right; blame the victim. What a perfect Southern lib lawyer you’d make.

    Icy Truth (b28aae)

  82. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III —

    Hey, thanks for coming back. Now, are you going to clarify what your problem is with me, or what?

    Icy Truth (b28aae)

  83. Republicans = Nanny-State; how many financial institutions are the American people going to own. Lets give 1 Billion dollars to Georgia…not the state of Georgia. What a Marist Nanny State supporting group of people. Claim you want small government but actually Maxist-Leninists in sheeps clothes

    stu (a7f174)

  84. Icy Truth- like Alice Kramden, you are the best. Keep giving liberal loons hell. Many of the sheeple are rather impressionable though. Actor Dennis Haysbert,while doing the car insurance ads,says if we are not in a recession, it sure FEELS like it. That sounds like a liberal mantra to me.
    The Messiah is praying for all the bad news he can spin to convince people it is fault of Bush the Moron. Meanwhile Nancy Pelosi acts like the three monkeys and thinks dems are blameless.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  85. stFu -

    – Actually, that’s all

    Icy Truth (db6433)

  86. max – Alice rules!

    Icy Truth (db6433)

  87. #49

    No terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11.

    No socialization of U.S. health care.

    Saddam Hussein dead.

    Democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    A president who is not getting blow jobs from interns while pretending to care about his wife and lying to a grand jury.

    For Sale sign taken off the Lincoln Bedroom.

    rockmom (e42807)

  88. http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/091608/sta_333013278.shtml

    ANCHORAGE – Moments after Gov. Sarah Palin’s first speech as Republican John McCain’s running mate, she sat with her kids backstage, thumbing one of the two BlackBerrys that are always with her. You can see them in photographs from that day on the campaign blog of one of McCain’s daughters.

    The tech-savvy governor has one of the devices (which allow users to read and send e-mails) for state business and another for personal matters, but those worlds intertwine.

    Palin routinely uses a private Yahoo e-mail account to conduct state business. Others in the governor’s office sometimes use personal e-mail accounts, too.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  89. jharp,

    There is now a post on the e-mail, so why not troll in a thread where you would actually be on topic.

    Karl (1b4668)

  90. “No terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11.”

    Wrong. After ignoring the warnings and allowing 911 there were also the anthrax attacks.

    “No socialization of U.S. health care.”

    Good one. No one has proposed or is proposing socialization of U.S. health care. Get real.

    “Saddam Hussein dead.”

    And Iraq has cost us $1 trillion, continues to cost $12 billion a month, has gotten 4,500 killed, and 40,000 wounded. With no end in sight.

    Heck. Of. A. Job.

    “Democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

    You mean theocratic governments backed by Iran.

    “A president who is not getting blow jobs from interns while pretending to care about his wife and lying to a grand jury.”

    Quite a feat. Good job. Bushie.

    “For Sale sign taken off the Lincoln Bedroom.”

    Put the crack pipe away.

    And thank you for the response.

    An excellent summary of Bush’s greatest achievements.

    jharp (f4bed7)

  91. Karl, I thought I had posted this earlier. Maybe it was another thread. John McCain voted NO on the Gramm-Leach-Bliley ACt conference report in 1999. His was the only no vote.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  92. Mike K,

    You are misreading your link. McCain is recorded as “No Vote,” as in did not vote. He did not vote “Nay.”

    Karl (1b4668)

  93. The failed community organizer to the rescue!

    Perfect Sense (0b988a)

  94. Karl, thanks for the insights.

    Ira (28a423)

  95. Post 12: Go trickle down economics! Vote republican!

    In other jharp can’t explain his made up claim about McCain.

    Gerald A (ebb8b5)

  96. I mean in other words jharp can’t explain his made up claim about McCain. When someone asks for actual facts change the subject, talk in generalities etc. Both of which the idiot does in his later posts.

    Gerald A (ebb8b5)

  97. Wow. The bots are really active on all the mid-road sites.

    Things must be tough in ObamaLand.

    With the polling only dead even after the worst two weeks Wall Street has had in a long time and the press in full bay howling for Palin’s head, something is clearly wrong with the Obama campaign. It should be ahead by 15 points.

    But it’s not. Hence the bots.

    vnjagvet (d3d48a)

  98. Actually, I enjoy watching the Harpster’s brags about his brilliance and success. But from time to time, some Freudian truth slips out. Like this one:

    Stated my business from nothing

    Well, I would think so. But you know the saying: talk is cheap.

    There is no way that this guy is a grown up. His malaprop comments, creative spelling, odd punctuation…they all scream a graduation date in the early to mid 90s.

    It is fun to keep up with this character’s claims, I have to admit.

    Eric Blair (81e599)

  99. The economy-if you think Obama will solve think Again…He won’t he can’t he is the boy who throws the rocks, looks inocent by hiding his hand behind him..just like he denounces everyone that he has association with that will hurt him win…believe me everything obama says and does if for pure self serving political gain!!! The man will only bring us dispair!
    All Obama’s associations: Google them! Wow scary?Google Obama Ayers
    Google Obama Khalid al-Mansour
    Google Obama Donald Warden
    Google Obama Mohammed Hasan Chandoo
    Google Obama Rezko
    Google Obama Saul Alinski
    Google Obama Wright
    Google Obama Khalidi
    Google Obama Malcolm X
    Google Obama Alwaleed bin Talal
    Google Obama Farrakhan
    Google Obama Woods Fund
    Google Obama Red Party
    Google Obama ACCORN

    Vote Responsibly08 (a7aba2)

  100. A brillian community organizer..only one thing wrong… a brilliant community organizer for Accorn…
    A senator: 173 days as Jr. Senator and he thinks he has more experience than Palin.
    This is what is going to solve our ecconomic problem? No this article says it all…
    Obamamaniacs you need to really give this a big thought!The price we will all pay with Obama is heavy…don’t do it!

    Vote4aSafeAmerica (a7aba2)

  101. jharp even now knows the anthrax perpetrator. What a psychic!

    SPQR (26be8b)

  102. McCain the deregulator.

    http://progressiveaccountability.org/2008/09/17/john-mccain-the-deregulator/#more-102

    Glass-Steagall repeal has nothing to do with the Fannie/Freddie mess. As most everyone knows by now, it was lax lending standards. At least I thought everyone knew that. As stated above, the Dems like you (Clinton, Biden etc.) were opposed to a bill that McCain supported: “the original Senate Bill would dilute requirements that banks make loans to minorities, farmers and others who have had little access to credit. In contrast, Sen. Joe Biden voted against the original Senate bill but voted for the final version — presumably in part because it kept open the pipeline for those riskier loans.” In other words tighten up lending requirements. That was taken out of the final bill that McCain did not vote on but Biden voted for and Clinton was willing to sign.

    Gerald A (ebb8b5)


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