Patterico's Pontifications

7/18/2023

Trump Whines, Luttig Shines

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:36 am

[guest post by Dana]

While Trump whines that he is the target of the special counsel’s criminal probe, former federal Judge Michael Luttig helpfully reminds him that this “is a consequence of the former president’s own provocation”:

“There is not an Attorney General or Special Counsel of either party who would not bring charges against the former president for his efforts on January 6 to overturn the 2020 presidential election. He has dared, taunted, provoked and goaded DOJ to prosecute him for his offenses on and relating to January 6 for two and a half years,” Luttig said.

“The former president has left Jack Smith no choice but to bring charges, lest the former president make a mockery of the Constitution of the United States and the Rule of Law.”

P.S. Unsurprisingly, Republicans are defending Trump after he made public that he is a target of the criminal probe into Jan. 6:

Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) suggested…that the government was targeting Trump out of fear he could win next November. “Recently President Trump went up in the polls and was actually surpassing President Biden for reelection. So what do they do now? Weaponize government to go after their No. 1 opponent…This is not equal justice. They treat people differently and they go after their adversaries,” said McCarthy, who after the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol said Trump “bears responsibility” for what happened.

House Majority Leader Steve Scalise (R-La.) also questioned the timing of the new development in the Jan. 6 investigation and whether there was a double standard being applied to the former president…not[ing] that the news comes as the House Oversight Committee is slated to hear testimony from two IRS whistleblowers this week who alleged an investigation into Hunter Biden was slow-walked by prosecutors…“Now you see the Biden administration going after President Trump once again, it begs that question — is there a double standard? Is justice being administered equally?” he said at the House GOP conference presser.

And crazy Marge suggested that because Smith has, in her words, “weaponized” the DOJ by these “ridiculous” charges, “we are worse than Russia, we are worse than China. We are worse than some of the most corrupt third world countries.”

Today’s Republican Party uh, at work…

–Dana

Comments (92)

92 Responses to “Trump Whines, Luttig Shines”

I would quibble with Luttig that Trump made a mockery of the Constitution and the Rule of Law when he attempted to overturn the 2020 election. But I take his point here.
Dana (560c99) — 7/18/2023 @ 11:38 am
Great title.

Kudos to Judge Luttig.
DRJ (083c28) — 7/18/2023 @ 11:44 am
I’ve added a P.S. to the post regarding the Republicans defending Trump after his announcement.
Dana (560c99) — 7/18/2023 @ 11:51 am
Trump is proof that many Americans aren’t discerning when it comes to politics. Those who are discerning, like all of the commenters here, are tired of the Trump show.
norcal (e5b4c8) — 7/18/2023 @ 12:19 pm
I feel like playing a game of “Is this a politician defending Trump or is it ChatGPT”. The GOP pols all deliver the same rote outrage stuff, except MTG gets in a few cuss words.
Appalled (91c80e) — 7/18/2023 @ 1:19 pm
Wasit a provocation when our VP had a fund supporting antifa criminals that engaged in trrterrorism?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/18/2023 @ 1:39 pm
“He has dared, taunted, provoked and goaded DOJ to prosecute him for his offenses on and relating to January 6 for two and a half years,” Luttig said.

Politically, I think Trump’s slow reaction to address the riot was impeachment/removal worthy.

But, what, exactly was his “offenses on and relating to January 6 for two and a half years” are we talking about? What penal code that Trump should be punished for?

I don’t want “conspiracy to commit fraud” or some banal generality. Lay it out, with puppets if necessary.
whembly (5f7596) — 7/18/2023 @ 1:57 pm
The real battle will be where the trials held and jury selection. First juror question what do you think of trump? Removed for cause.
asset (4ae4f2) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:10 pm
More digging, in defiance of the First Rule of Holes.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:13 pm
@6: Those folks are just banally corrupt. Trump is in a class by himself.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:15 pm
But, what, exactly was his “offenses on and relating to January 6 for two and a half years” are we talking about? What penal code that Trump should be punished for?

I don’t want “conspiracy to commit fraud” or some banal generality. Lay it out, with puppets if necessary.

whembly (5f7596) — 7/18/2023 @ 1:57 pm

My guess is that it will be another “talking indictment”, similar to the Espionage Act indictment.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:17 pm
My guess is that it will be another “talking indictment”, similar to the Espionage Act indictment.

And I suspect that some of the evidence of Trump’s deep involvement will shock.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:24 pm
Wasit a provocation when our VP had a fund supporting antifa criminals that engaged in trrterrorism?

It probably was a provocation that Harris tweeted in support of a fund (not “had a fund”) that helped bail out rioters (no evidence they were Antifa), which is not a good thing but, unlike Trump’s criminal acts, the tweet wasn’t illegal.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:29 pm
whembly, suborning electoral fraud would be an easy call, provided that Smith can tie Trump to the Fake Electors scheme. Beyond that, I can’t say, but seditious conspiracy could be on the table.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:32 pm
whembly (5f7596) — 7/18/2023 @ 1:57 pm

But, what, exactly was his “offenses on and relating to January 6 for two and a half years” are we talking about?

Nothing, except that he is still claiming that the election was stolen from him, and he keeps on claiming, on occasion, that people who supported him. But neither of these tings is a crime.

What penal code that Trump should be punished for?

They seem to be focusing on the idea that he knew his claims were unfounded – that he knew that he had really, genuinely lost the election – so even peaceful and Parliamentary acts intended to change the outcome are a form of sedition or obstruction of governmental processes. This, in my opinion, is stretching the law too far.

They more perfectly fit grounds for impeachment (if you think he just went too far and for too long.) It’s a matter of judgement when to impeach.

We don’t normally question if someone believes all (or even any) of the allegations in a lawsuit or what is contained in a petition to the government. And prosecute that person if the answer is: impossible.

Even when we do, the most we do is take actions against the lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits or (sometimes if an identifiable person is hurt by the claims) sue them for libel.

We expect a punishment in the court of public opinion. The problem is the court of public opinion has not been working — well enough – against Trump. (it helps that exaggerations and false and unreasonable claims are thrown in, like incitement of a crowd – which wasn’t even the main crowd that burst in – by the use of the word “fight.”)

The court of public opinion has worked well enough so that Trump can’t win a general election except in the right kind of split field, (like drawing an inside straight in poker) but what Trump is doing is tending to preclude the election of a genuinely good candidate by taking up the space of the main opponent.(and No Labels is no help)

Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:37 pm
@14

whembly, suborning electoral fraud would be an easy call

What does that mean exactly? Why would that be easy?

, provided that Smith can tie Trump to the Fake Electors scheme.

I’m not sure if that’s illegal either. “Alternate” Electors (not “Fact”) is a thing. BUt, those slates must be voted on by the individual states, and demanding (or even politically twisting arms) isn’t illegal either.

Beyond that, I can’t say, but seditious conspiracy could be on the table.

Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:32 pm

I’m dubious of this as well, because if they had something like that, they’ve would’ve brought it up during the 2nd impeachment or shortly afterwards.
whembly (5f7596) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:43 pm
12. Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 2:24 pm

And I suspect that some of the evidence of Trump’s deep involvement will shock.

I suspect you’ll be disappointed.(He was involved a little, but he was roped into aiding somebody else’s conspiracy)

I think they had the idea they could get Trump to reverse himself and agree to declare some form of martial law if they made enough of a commotion. But Trump knew that was suicide.

The indictment will focus on the idea he knew what he wanted Congress to do was unjustified both under the facts and in the law) And it’ll show that he repeated claims that he had been told by people he had picked to advise him – not to mention that he also claimed that everybody knew it, a nuance indicating he was lying that most people have missed) Everybody>

Including his campaign people? And members of his family? And friends? And appointees? What is Bill Barr? Chopped liver?

He would drop allegations and then repeat them again at another time.

And he seemed to have little discrimination in what he would allege.

If it was real, if he really believed some of that, he just wouldn’t do that.

The indictment will say that, on occasion, he seemed to admit privately that he had lost the election. (You could even throw in, if you wanted to, as proof, that at least that he knew he would not likely remain in office much longer, if not that he knew his claims of massive vote fraud were unfounded, the consideration of an attack on Iran’s nuclear program.)

And then argue that, given his true opinion, anything he did to attempt to continue in office for another term was illegal.

Just organizing the critical vote in Congress would be enough to convict. I think the indictment will probably argue that.

I don’t think we want to go there.

If he ever gets convicted on the basis of something like that, it’ll be thrown out, after several years, by the Supreme Court, which has thrown out “violation of honest services” bribery type charges.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/18/2023 @ 3:03 pm
* he repeated claims that he had been told were unfounded by people he had picked to advise him.

So how could he claim that everybody knew his victory was stolen? And that he won by a lot?

But I think the indictment will miss that point.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/18/2023 @ 3:07 pm
Michigan attorney general charges fake Trump electors over alleged 2020 election crimes
……….
The 16 people each face eight charges, including conspiracy, election law forgery, and uttering and publishing, state Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a video announcement.
………
On Dec. 14, 2020, weeks after Biden defeated Trump by more than 154,000 votes in Michigan, the defendants met covertly in the basement of the state GOP headquarters and signed documents claiming to be the legally qualified electors for the state in the Electoral College, according to Nessel.

“That was a lie,” Nessel said. “They weren’t the duly elected and qualified electors, and each of the defendants knew it.”

The bogus electoral documents were then sent to the U.S. Senate and the National Archives “with the intent that Vice President Mike Pence would overturn the results of the election using the false electoral slate,” Nessel said.
……..
The charges announced Tuesday have maximum possible prison sentences of up to 14 years. The defendants have been given a week to surrender on the charges, said Nessel, whose office said the investigation is continuing.

CNN reported in early 2021 that Maddock, the co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party was heard on an audio recording at a public event as saying, “We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked us to do that.”
……….
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 3:10 pm
“That was a lie,” Nessel said. “They weren’t the duly elected and qualified electors, and each of the defendants knew it.”

That was done because the ekectirs had tovote by a certain date.

What he’s really saying is they had no case to be declared Electors and knew it.. But that is not fraud. Everybody knew who was who.

It’s this kind of thing that I don’t like.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/18/2023 @ 3:49 pm
How is not fraud to send in fake documents to the National Archives claiming that you are the duly appointed electors?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 4:11 pm
Because nobody is relying on these signed statements and they had some hopes they could be retroactively certified.

In 1960,there was a real question in Hawaii. Not here of course but fraud if the wrong word for this.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/18/2023 @ 4:33 pm
What Trump’s G.O.P. Rivals Are Saying About Another Potential Indictment
………
Nikki Haley, who served as United Nations ambassador under Mr. Trump and is now running against him, sounded exasperated when asked on Fox News about the investigation into his efforts to overturn the 2020 election and his role in the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol. She called it a “distraction” from important issues like foreign policy, border security and the national debt.
………
(Ron) DeSantis, for his part, said that any indictment would be part of “an attempt to criminalize politics and to try to criminalize differences,” while also saying that Mr. Trump should have “come out more forcefully” to stop his supporters from storming the Capitol on Jan. 6.

In other corners, silence reigned. The campaigns of Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami and Gov. Doug Burgum of North Dakota did not respond to requests for comment. And a spokesman for former Vice President Mike Pence — who, by certifying the election results on Jan. 6, made an enemy of his former boss — said that Mr. Pence had nothing to say Tuesday morning.
………
………(Vivek Ramaswamy) initially took a less fiery tack, saying he “would have made very different judgments than President Trump did, but a bad judgment is not a crime.” But not long after, he issued a conspiratorial statement, suggesting without evidence that the possible indictment was part of a plot to disqualify Mr. Trump from office under the 14th Amendment.

Three other low-polling candidates who, unlike Mr. Ramaswamy, have sought out the anti- Trump lane of the primary field reacted predictably.
……….
……….(F)ormer Representative Will Hurd of Texas, was scathing: “Losing to Joe Biden was so humiliating to Donald Trump that he was willing to let people die for his lies about a stolen election,” he said in a statement. He added, “Trump’s inaction then, and now being a target in the investigation, proves he’s not fit for office.”
###########
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 4:58 pm
Target Letter to Trump Raises Possibility of Obstruction and Fraud Charges
………
Norman Eisen, who worked for the House Judiciary Committee during Mr. Trump’s first impeachment and contributed to a prosecution memo modeling potential Jan. 6-related charges, said that the target letter suggested the special counsel “has more than enough evidence” to bring a case against the former president.

“By leading the effort to procure fraudulent electoral certificates across the nation, Trump helmed a conspiracy to defraud the U.S.,” Mr. Eisen said. “And by using those false documents to press Mike Pence to disrupt the Jan. 6 meeting of Congress, Trump attempted to obstruct an official proceeding.”
………..
These are some of the charges Mr. Trump could face in the Jan. 6 case.

Corruptly Obstructing an Official Proceeding

………..
In issuing criminal referrals as it ended its investigation, the Jan. 6 committee argued that Mr. Trump should be charged under the statute (Section 1512(c) of Title 18) based on two sets of actions. By summoning supporters to Washington and stoking them to march on the Capitol, lawmakers argued, Mr. Trump had violated that law. Mr. Trump’s lawyers would likely raise doubts over whether he intended for his supporters to riot in part because he also told them to protest “peacefully.”

The committee also cited Mr. Trump’s participation in the fake electors scheme as a reason to issue charges, pointing to his effort to strong-arm Mr. Pence to cite the existence of slates of electors pledged to Mr. Trump in seven states that Mr. Biden had actually won as a basis to delay certifying the election. The panel stressed how Mr. Trump had been told that there was no truth to his claims of a stolen election, which it said showed his intentions were corrupt.

Conspiring to Defraud the Government and to Make False Statements

Both the federal judge in California and the Jan. 6 committee also said there was evidence that Mr. Trump violated Section 371 of Title 18, which makes it a crime, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conspire with another person to defraud the government.

The basis for such a charge would be similar: Mr. Trump’s interactions with various lawyers and aides in his effort to block the certification of Mr. Biden’s electoral victory, even though Mr. Trump was repeatedly told that his allegations of widespread voter fraud were baseless.
………
A conspiracy to submit false electors to Congress could also implicate Section 1001, which makes false statements a crime punishable by up to five years in prison. In the documents case, Mr. Trump is charged under this statute, accused of having caused his lawyer to lie to the Justice Department.

Wire and Mail Fraud

A constellation of other potential crimes has also surrounded the Jan. 6 investigation. One is wire fraud. Section 1343 of Title 18 makes it a crime, punishable by 20 years in prison, to cause money to be transferred by wire across state lines as part of a scheme to obtain money by means of false or fraudulent representations. A similar fraud statute, Section 1341, covers schemes that use the Postal Service.

Subpoenas issued by Mr. Smith suggest that he has been scrutinizing Mr. Trump’s political action committee, Save America PAC. It raised as much as $250 million, telling donors the money was needed to fight election fraud even as Mr. Trump had been told repeatedly that there was no evidence to back up those claims.
……….
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 5:21 pm
i think mr. former president donald trump, who could save hundreds of dollars on his impeachment insurance by switching to geico, is finally getting what he has wanted since he was a little boy

when he says that this or that person hates him, millions of people believe him

not like mommy and daddy and that mean old nanny
nk (bb1548) — 7/18/2023 @ 5:44 pm
Profile in Courage:

………
“But with regard to the prospect of an indictment, I hope it doesn’t come to that,” said Pence, who is running against Trump for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination. “I’m not convinced that the president acting on the bad advice of a group of crank lawyers that came into the White House in the days before Jan. 6 is actually criminal.”

“And secondly, the truth is that the Department of Justice has lost the confidence of the American people. And there’s so many Americans that are deeply concerned about unequal treatment under the law,” Pence continued.

“I don’t know what the letter today means, the notification means, but my hope is that the judgment about the president’s actions on Jan. 6 would be left to the American people,” the former vice president added.
………..
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/18/2023 @ 5:47 pm
Gropey MacPenthouse only backs off when his rally-goers boo him. He has no sensibility that advice could influence, and no moral sense to make him repent.
nk (bb1548) — 7/18/2023 @ 6:15 pm
@27 as long as AOC and the squad along with bernie and his bros are willing to hold their nose and support biden and not vote green party biden’s tilt to the left is working. Only the left can cost biden the election as the democrat establishment has to support him at all cost.
asset (1ebaec) — 7/18/2023 @ 6:29 pm
Here is a archived general discussion of 18 USC Section 371 — conspiracy to defraud the government.
DRJ (531157) — 7/18/2023 @ 7:02 pm
Heeding McCarthy’s prompts… is there no end to this nuttery:

Former President Donald Trump has expanded his lead over Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and the rest of the Republican presidential field since Trump’s latest indictment on federal criminal charges, according to a new national NBC News poll.

On the semi-upside though:

Still, the survey finds half of Republican primary voters say they would consider another leader besides Trump — which suggests a potential opening for a rival to capture the GOP nomination, even as 6 out of 10 Republicans believe the indictments and investigations Trump faces are politically motivated
Dana (560c99) — 7/18/2023 @ 8:35 pm
I’m dubious of this as well, because if they had something like that, they’ve would’ve brought it up during the 2nd impeachment or shortly afterwards.

All those folks looking at 20 years in prison might have developed looser tongues. James McCord might have kept silent if he wasn’t sentenced to 20 years for the Watergate job.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 11:41 pm
It’s this kind of thing that I don’t like.

Indeed. Piling on the little fish, for arguable crimes that defrauded no one only serves to give credence to Trump’s claims of persecution.

But still, there WERE Trump electors in each of those states, duly enrolled, Had the election result been overturned, they would have been “duly elected.” I’m not sure why this other group had to get involved.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/18/2023 @ 11:45 pm
This same brand of assholes invaded the Michigan Capitol while armed and plotted to kidnap the Governor. Feel sorry for the homeowner, not the cockroaches.
nk (bb1548) — 7/19/2023 @ 5:07 am
Asset,

your girls continued their racist attack against Israelis. How do you feel about that?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/19/2023 @ 5:24 am
I’m dubious of this as well, because if they had something like that, they’ve would’ve brought it up during the 2nd impeachment or shortly afterwards.

The second impeachment didn’t have the benefit of the evidence developed by the January 6 Select Committee or the Justice Department investigation.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 8:30 am
It’s this kind of thing that I don’t like.

Indeed. Piling on the little fish, for arguable crimes that defrauded no one…….

You don’t think the US government can be defrauded, only individuals?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 8:34 am
The charges against the fake electors in Michigan are being brought by the State’s Attorney General under state law.
nk (4e04ed) — 7/19/2023 @ 8:51 am
THE THREE REPORTED CHARGES AGAINST TRUMP: 371, 1512, AND (MAYBE) 242
………
……… Rolling Stone says the target letter cites three charges.

The letter mentions three federal statutes: Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud the United States; deprivation of rights under color of law; and tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant.

……(T)wo of these are totally expected:

18 USC 371: Conspiracy to Defraud the US has generally been discussed in terms of the fake elector scheme — basically, an effort to get 16 electors in all the swing states to submit fraudulent certificates to NARA. That the scheme was fraudulent is easy to prove. What’s harder to prove is Trump’s personal involvement it, which will have required DOJ to breach several levels of privileged communication to prove (something they took steps to do on Lisa Monaco’s first day on the job). That said, we’ve seen that they’ve been doing that, most recently with proffers from both Boris Epshteyn and Rudy Giuliani, who implemented the scheme.

But this is a broad statute, and DOJ could also charge Trump with ConFraudUS for campaign finance crimes, among other known Trump acts.

18 USC 1512(c)(2): What is described as witness tampering here is almost certainly obstruction of an official proceeding, the same crime with which 300 other alleged January 6 criminals have been charged. The title for that crime is witness tampering. (Though Jack Smith could also charge Trump for attempting to tamper with Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony.)……..

………(I)t would require the government to prove that:

Trump took steps to obstruct the certification of the votes. I would expect this to consist both of his pressure on Mike Pence, but also on his support for the mob, including for the threats the mob made on Congress.

Trump intended to obstruct the vote certification. This would require proving that he knew the significance of the event, which DOJ will prove with the weeks of plotting he put in before the event.

Trump had corrupt purpose in doing so. The standard for corrupt purpose as regards this statute is still being decided by the DC Circuit, but it will end up being some combination of “otherwise illegal activity” and “corrupt benefit.” The former might be proven by showing that Trump knowingly gave an illegal order to Mike Pence. The latter would easily be proven by showing that Trump wanted to retain an office he didn’t win.

………
The last of these statutes is more of a surprise.

18 USC 242: It prohibits someone from impeding someone’s rights “under color of law,” which can mean “beyond the scope of one’s official duties.” Charging Trump with 242 may be a way to charge him for attempting to deprive 81 million Biden voters of their right to vote, to deprive Joe Biden of his right to be assume the Presidency, and to deprive election workers of their right to work safely. Charging him under 242 would eliminate any dodge Trump might make — for example on the call to Brad Raffensberger — that he was simply acting within his official role as President.

This charge may be why, since last year and increasingly in recent weeks, Jack Smith has focused on the harassment of election officials. Just today, AJC reported that Smith subpoenaed footage from the State Farm arena counting center, suggesting Ruby Freeman might be treated as a victim here as well, which would be well, well deserved.
……….
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 8:51 am
Interfering with government process is fraud, Kevin. Interfering with our free elections is the worst possible fraud because it defrauds everyone.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 9:57 am
You don’t think the US government can be defrauded, only individuals?

Of course it can, but this effort would not have defrauded a 5yo.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 10:57 am
It was also pointless, as there was already a slate of Trump electors in each of those states. No one had to do anything, if the state result was overturned.

Is it fraud if I claim something that is patently false, and I know that you know it is patently false? For example, I claim to be John Wilkes Booth and ask for an advance on my autobiography?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:03 am
Trump is RAPIST, says civli court judge, in denying Trump request to lower jury’s award.

In an opinion issued on Wednesday, US District Judge Lewis Kaplan, who presided over the trial, wrote that the trial evidence demonstrated Trump “raped” Carroll in the plain sense of the word.

“The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape,'” Kaplan wrote. “Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump in fact did exactly that.”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:05 am
@39

Interfering with government process is fraud, Kevin. Interfering with our free elections is the worst possible fraud because it defrauds everyone.

DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 9:57 am

I don’t think any of that would stick, as Smith is likely to run headlong into the SCOTUS’s admonition that prosecutors refrain from invoking fraud and other vague statutes to criminalize deplorable behavior by public officials, in PERCOCO v. UNITED STATES and CIMINELLI v. UNITED STATES .

I think Smith only has a case, if there are financial implications, such as fundraising to “stop the steal” and the likes.

Frankly, all these indictments is working in Trump’s favor. There’s more coming in GA as well. This means, Trump’s defense team has a good argument to delay these cases till after ’24 election.

Not sure if that’s what Democrats wanted.
whembly (5f7596) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:31 am
Ryan Goodman calls the MI Fake Elector Scheme a “strong case“, and I can’t argue otherwise. There’s a problem when people fraudulently sign documents with titles like “Certification of the Votes of the 2020 Electors From Michigan” to fool the voting public into thinking those papers were legitimate.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:45 am
No one had to do anything, if the state result was overturned.

The fake electors weren’t a backstop to a court overturning a result, they were submitted to the National Archives and Pence as alternatives for the Biden electors.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 12:49 pm
Trump’s defense team has a good argument to delay these cases till after ’24 election.

LOL!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 12:54 pm
The federal judge presiding over Donald Trump’s trial for allegedly mishandling classified documents appeared skeptical Tuesday about the former president’s request that it be delayed until after the 2024 election.

U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon also appeared wary of prosecutors’ request to begin the proceedings as soon as this year.
……….
Some of the debate between prosecutors and the defense appeared to focus on Trump’s status as a former president running again for that office. Trump’s attorneys have cited his busy campaign schedule as well as his other court cases in arguing for delaying this trial.

Prosecutors, though, said it was a core part of American democracy that no person is above the law, and they rejected the idea that Trump’s obligations necessitated a delay.

“Mr. Trump is not the president. He is a private citizen,” David Harbach, one of the prosecutors, said in court. “He is no different from any other busy, important person who has been indicted.”
………..
Cannon suggested that the significant amount of discovery in the case, along with various other legal issues, seemed to be a more “suitable” framework for determining the trial’s timing than focusing on the 2024 election. She did seem open to the idea that starting the trial this year might be untenable, but asked the defense attorneys to be more specific than just asking that it be pushed until after the election.

“I can appreciate that more time is necessary, but we need to set a schedule,” Cannon told them.
………

Source
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 1:00 pm
Frankly, all these indictments is working in Trump’s favor. …….Not sure if that’s what Democrats wanted.

whembly (5f7596) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:31 am

I’m sure they would rather run against a Donald Trump who has been indicted on dozens of federal and state felonies than a candidate who hasn’t.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 1:04 pm
Looking at this carefully, this was purely because they wouldn’t commit to taking and proving biohazard security precautions. Aimed at the future.

They gave them a lot of time.

Apparently, this was a compromise position by the Biden Administration.

They would disregard the past but they would want to be sure of the future. How could you argue against it, even if you would not want to imply the possibility of an origin at the lab.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 1:41 pm
Number 40 should have been in the other thread.

41. Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:03 am

It was also pointless, as there was already a slate of Trump electors in each of those states.

But the regular Trump electors weren’t about to vote.

This was insurance against the possibility that the state would be able to appoint new electors or that Congress would accept these electors but they wouldn’t have voted on the proper date so they needed to vote. They had some legal theory.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:03 pm
I mean number 49 was supposed to be in the Wuhan lab thread,

Trump had corrupt purpose in doing so.

I think you also need the people who carry out the obstruction to have a corrupt purpose.

Trump would need to break character in urging other people do things.

Otherwise he’s only insisting on what he says are his rights. He’s not blatantly asking other people to do something wrong or illegal.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:11 pm
Trump’s defense team has a good argument to delay these cases till after ’24 election.

LOL!

Agreed. The state cases, particularly the silly NY “felony” case, can damn well wait on the federal trials. i think Florida goes first, then DC. Both can be concluded by early 2024.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:12 pm
showing that Trump knowingly gave an illegal order to Mike Pence.

Trump never gave an “order” to Mike Pence. He couldn’t. He wanted Pence to do something.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:12 pm
@34 Half the people in Israel agree that netanhayu and the likud coalition has racist/fascist policy and a few have called for the expulsion of palestinians. Some of the squads views are different then mine on peace settlement as I want to have Egypt take over the gaza strip which we will have to pay for so their soldiers can stop attacks on israel.
asset (a5e512) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:15 pm
BTW, I think that if Trump is convicted of insurrection, he is disqualified. If he happens to win an appeal later, the can run again then. While a prison sentence might be stayed due to an appeal, the disqualification is instant at time of conviction and persists as long as the conviction exists.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:16 pm
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/19/2023 @ 11:45 am

fool the voting public into thinking those papers were legitimate.

You can fool the voters without having to sign anything at all.

You could even lie about signing.

They signed that in the hopes that what the statement said would later be upheld. There was no good basis for that, but that was the purpose – not to fool anyone that the Governor or whoever agreed that they were electors.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:16 pm
Half the people in Israel agree that netanhayu and the likud coalition has racist/fascist policy

Yet they voted for him. Maybe some of them view it as a feature.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:17 pm
54. asset (a5e512) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:15 pm

as I want to have Egypt take over the gaza strip which we will have to pay for so their soldiers can stop attacks on israel.

Menachem Begin wanted Egypt to take over the Gaza Strip. Sadat wasn’t interested and neither is Egypt today. Israel doesn’t want to occupy it either.

The West Bank is like Taiwan under Chiang Kai-shek – they can’t hold elections. And besides, what Israel is worried about is that Hamas could have over Ramallah government whenever Abbas leaves office – he’s 87 years old and in about the 18th year of his 4 year term. No elections because half their territory id not under control of official government. Its like one of those former Soviet breakaway territories. or maybe Taiwan under Chiang Kai-shek

Gaza is considered part of an independent Palestinian state (news articles are datelined: Gaza, Palestine) but the Ramallah government is the one that issues passports. And nobody wants Hamas to. It’s considered a terrorist group also by the EU

Gaza is considered hostile territory by Israel and partially blockaded.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:29 pm
@58 I said we will have to make (BUY) egypt and it wont be cheap. @57 Half voted for netanhayu and the religious parties which have plenty of racism the other half voted against that corrupt fraud.
asset (a5e512) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:36 pm
Talk about a Palestinian state is like they are talkig about another reality. It is not the problem- just a problem for how the world is organized. The crucial problem in the Middle East is hatred and vilification of Israel. Almost all issues are created by the conflict

The Arab side must state that they have done wrong. They have lied, they have schemed, they have killed, they have rewarded killers and they must state that they do not want to be enemies of Israel. Not even that they are no longer enemies. That they don’t want to be enemies. That would be a beginning.

If you want. Israel could issue a reciprocal statement that they do not want to be enemies but that’s getting into mirror-imaging. You csn come up with some mirror image tests that work.
Sammy Finkelman (d007a3) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:37 pm
https://twitter.com/TAftermath2020/status/1681752463437889536
No matter what you think of MTG…

The look of Jamie Raskin looking helpless as she brings the receipts almost makes her deranged positions worth it. Almost.
whembly (5f7596) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:37 pm
Egypt won’t take Gaza — well I can’t say you couldn’t pay them enough.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:39 pm
Nothing in the indictments reduces the reputation of Trump because his reputation is already as low as it can get (for purposes of voting for or not for him) among those who do not listen to what he says, but they can reduce the reputation of the Democrats slightly if anything seees off about any of it..
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:43 pm
But what you really want to do is get Iran’s agents out of Gaza.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:43 pm
They signed that in the hopes that what the statement said would later be upheld.

I’ll pass on mindreading what their intentions were, Sammy, and stick to the fraud they actually perpetrated.
The only “Certification of the Votes of the 2020 Electors From Michigan” was the one signed by the actual Electors in an officially convened legislature. Any other document that asserts otherwise is fraudulent, i.e., vote fraud.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:46 pm
i think Florida goes first, then DC. Both can be concluded by early 2024.

Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:12 pm

Even more LOL! As pointed out by Judge Cannon, the government’s schedule is too aggressive to start the Espionage Act trial by December, so it won’t begin until probably spring. Trump hasn’t even been indicted yet for the election fraud case, so that probably won’t start until late summer.

Based on various reports of what is in the target letter, insurrection is not mentioned.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:52 pm
Trump Civil Litigation Watch:

A federal judge on Wednesday rejected Donald Trump ’s bid to move his hush-money criminal case from New York state court to federal court, ruling that the former president had failed to meet a high legal bar for changing jurisdiction.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein found that the allegations in the Manhattan case pertained to Trump’s personal life, not presidential duties that would have merited a move to federal court.

“The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that the matter was a purely a personal item of the President — a cover-up of an embarrassing event,” Hellerstein wrote in a 25-page ruling. “Hush money paid to an adult film star is not related to a President’s official acts. It does not reflect in any way the color of the President’s official duties.”
……….
In his ruling, the judge said evidence strongly supported the prosecution’s contention that the money paid to Cohen was reimbursement for a hush-money payment.
……….
Trump’s lawyers asked in May for the federal court to take control of the hush-money case, contending he couldn’t be tried in state court because some of the alleged conduct occurred in 2017 while he was president, including checks he purportedly wrote while sitting in the Oval Office.
………
Matthew Colangelo, a senior counsel to District Attorney Alvin Bragg, argued nothing about the hush-money payments and reimbursements involved Trump’s official duties as president. He also disputed whether the legal definition of “federal officer” applies to a president or only to other members of the government.
………
Trump’s hush-money trial is scheduled to start in state court on March 25, 2024, in an increasingly crowded legal and political calendar for the Republican frontrunner……..

Meanwhile, two civil lawsuits against Trump are slated to go to trial in the coming months: in October, New York Attorney General Letitia James’ suit alleging he and his company fraudulently misstating the value of assets; and in January, a second trial involving writer E. Jean Carroll’s claim that he defamed her when he denied her allegations that he sexually assaulted her in the mid-1990s.
############
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 3:50 pm
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/19/2023 @ 2:52 pm

Good luck getting the government to act quickly in trying Trump.

Even people in deportation proceedings can delay them for years.
norcal (e5b4c8) — 7/19/2023 @ 4:23 pm
Kevin 41,

That is why I linked the of defrauding the government at 21. From the link:

…that the defendant performed acts or made statements that he/she knew to be false, fraudulent or deceitful to a government agency, which disrupted the functions of the agency or of the government. It is sufficient for the government to prove that the defendant knew the statements were false or fraudulent when made. The government is not required to prove the statements ultimately resulted in any actual loss to the government of any property or funds, only that the defendant’s activities impeded or interfered with legitimate governmental functions.

Interfering with government functions when you know your basis is false is enough. Trump (and his syncophants) interfered with the election certification, despite knowing he had lost the election. That is the crime f defrauding the government.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 4:45 pm
That is why I linked the discussion of defrauding the government at 21.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 4:46 pm
Kevin,

Like all the engineers I know, you view the law through your engineers’ logic. You think the law works in a linear way, i.e., you decide where you want to go and carefully analyze each step to get there.

That isn’t how the law works. (Yes, I know, you think that is why the law sucks. But consider that engineering practices and principles developed for good reasons, and so have legal practices and principles m)

The law has requirements — what we call elements — that prosecutors must produce evidence on in order to prove specific crimes. The elements for defrauding the government are straightforward. I discussed them above. IMO Trump loses.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 4:57 pm
@60 Some good ;but now unattainable points. Also some hopefully not many want palestinians deported to arab countries. My short term solution is doable and costs money. Lots and lots of money and some arm twisting.
asset (664b93) — 7/19/2023 @ 5:24 pm
@64 difficult unless we pay $$$ egypt and their army to do it. These unsolvable problems get solved with enough of are money. Look what we are paying now and saudis don’t like Iran either.
asset (664b93) — 7/19/2023 @ 5:29 pm
interfering with government functions when you know your basis is false is enough. Trump (and his syncophants) interfered with the election certification, despite knowing he had lost the election. That is the crime f defrauding the government.

In October 2022, Trump’s aides testified that Trump knew he lost the election. Alyssa Farah and Cassidy Hutchinson testified that he admitted it. There wasn’t any real question about the loss. Instead, Trump could not handle being publicly humiliated, and his bruised narcissistic ego couldn’t take such a hammering. And given that he had spent his career doing whatever was necessary, whether legal or not, to get his way (and frequently succeeding), why would he think the U.S. government would be impervious to his tactics? Bullying, harassing, intimating poll workers, colleagues, secretaries of state, and anyone in a position to turn things his way was targeted.

It would appear that he has more than met the standard.
Dana (560c99) — 7/19/2023 @ 5:31 pm
And see here for why Trump’s retention of government NDI and classified documents is not a minor crime. It’s covered by the Espionage Act because it is a “profound compromise of security.”
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:33 pm
IMO Trump loses.

OK, I can live with that.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:41 pm
so have legal practices and principles

There seems to be a lot of accident and unfortunate precedent too. Slaughterhouse screwed up quite a few things which had to be patched with kludges. Engineers don’t operate by precedent. “what works” is the only truth.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:44 pm
Judge Cannon is going to get an awful lot of bipartisan pushback if she sets the trial date much past December. She will be forever seen as “that Trumpist shill” and find she eats lunch alone a lot.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:48 pm
interfering with government functions when you know your basis is false is enough.

I don’t disagree that it’s criminal, but is it “fraud”? The word starts to lose meaning. The “public service fraud” statues have been pretty much gutted, and this isn’t even that. There are things about maladministration and misbehavior (“misdemeanor” in 1789), but those are mostly impeachment things, not criminal charges.

Was Nixon’s impoundment of appropriations “fraud”? I doubt it.
Was Iran/Contra fraud? Yeah, particularly on Ollie North’s part.

This isn’t an engineer’s viewpoint, but an epidemiologist’s. Words need to have meaning. Sure, the law can define anything as fraud, but that’s why we have juries.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:58 pm
* statutes
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:59 pm
@75: did someone deny that?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 8:00 pm
The closest that Trump got to committing a crime with regard to his election reversal attempts was maybe when he wanted a new Acting Attorney General to declare that DOJ had found evidence of fraud – which was the exact opposite of the truth.

Trump backed down when the entire upper echelon of DOJ threatened to resign. He even did not replace the Acting Attorney General with Jeffrey Clark – a White House log already listed him as that.

Trump had been hoping this statement would have some effect on state legislatures.

He argued that all he wanted was this (patently false) statement — Republican members of Congress etc would take care of the rest.

The whole thing was a screwball plan anyway — but this itself would have been fraud. Because whether or not you believed there was fraud, DOJ had not found it.
Sammy Finkelman (9a0217) — 7/19/2023 @ 9:18 pm
I think Whembly was talking about NDI charges elsewhere, Kevin. It wasn’t being discussed here.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 9:28 pm
Typically. Th elements of fraud are:

1) a false statement
2) an intent to deceive
3) reasonable reliance on the statement by the injured party and
4) injury sustained as the result of the reliance.

As I understand the DOJ discussion, it concludes that in government fraud: the 3rd element is interference with government function, and 4 is presumed.
DRJ (531157) — 7/19/2023 @ 9:38 pm
The closest that Trump got to committing a crime with regard to his election reversal attempts was maybe when he wanted a new Acting Attorney General to declare that DOJ had found evidence of fraud – which was the exact opposite of the truth.

Sammy, I think you’re missing Trump’s involvement in the Fake Electors scheme across multiple battleground states.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/19/2023 @ 10:02 pm
DRJ – Thanks for your legal explanations. They add a lot to the discussions here.
Jim Miller (301a58) — 7/20/2023 @ 4:31 am
It sure beats waxing on(or off) about Kari Lake’s hairstyle, Jim.
BuDuh (4ae305) — 7/20/2023 @ 5:08 am
Who did that? Talked about Kari Lake’s hairstyle?
nk (4e04ed) — 7/20/2023 @ 6:38 am
Kevin M (2d6744) — 7/19/2023 @ 7:58 pm

Was Iran/Contra fraud? Yeah, particularly on Ollie North’s part.

No money ever went to the contras, and Reagan was never told about any profits……….

Oliver North used a little money himself.

He claimed it came from savings.

From a little tin box,
that a little tin key unlocks..

There is nothing unorthodox,
about a little tin box

– from the Broadway musical Fiorello.

It was said that money intended for the contras was deposited in the wrong bank account — off by one digit.

This isn’t an engineer’s viewpoint, but an epidemiologist’s. Words need to have meaning. Sure, the law can define anything as fraud, but that’s why we have juries.
Sammy Finkelman (ee07f1) — 7/20/2023 @ 9:22 am
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 7/19/2023 @ 10:02 pm

Sammy, I think you’re missing Trump’s involvement in the Fake Electors scheme across multiple battleground states.

That was not a crime. Just invalid.
Sammy Finkelman (ee07f1) — 7/20/2023 @ 9:24 am
Oh, Sammy. Sigh.
DRJ (531157) — 7/20/2023 @ 10:05 am
Thanks, Jim. I try to provide reliable information but Trump does things that are very different. Maybe Patterico can weigh in someday, when the cases are farther along. He is much smarter about these things than I am, but he works so I have more time.
DRJ (531157) — 7/20/2023 @ 10:44 am

7/18/2023

Trump Whines, Luttig Shines

92 Responses to “Trump Whines, Luttig Shines”

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