Patterico's Pontifications

6/16/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:29 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

A new GOP litmus test??

I listened to a smart podcast over at The Bulwark with Charlie Sykes and his guest, former U.S. representative Adam Kinzinger. During the discussion, the question of a new GOP litmus test was raised: Would the candidates be willing to agree that, if elected, they would pardon Donald Trump?

In 2017, after Trump won the election, the primary litmus test for Republicans was a demonstration of complete loyalty to Trump. It became necessary if an elected official wanted to remain in good graces of Trump, get re-elected, or increase their standing in the GOP.

After Trump’s election loss in 2020 (and especially after the insurrection on Jan. 6), the Republican litmus test was no longer just about loyalty to Trump. Parroting Trump’s incessant lies that the 2020 election was stolen was now on the bill. Republicans knew what was expected of them. And if they refused to play the game because their integrity and oath to the Constitution superseded all else, then the blasphemers found themselves on the outs with Trump and MAGA voters. (See: Liz Cheney) However, given that the predicted red wave didn’t happen in 2022, one could also reasonably say that, as time went on, some candidates’ loyalty to Trump and the Big Lie worked against them with voters.

Republicans may soon be facing a new litmus test. While not a leading candidate but a longtime Trump supporter with nothing to lose, businessman Vivek Ramaswamy is the first declared candidate to lay down the marker for said new GOP litmus test:

Vivek Ramaswamy stood outside the Miami courthouse…and said every candidate in the race should pledge to pardon [Trump].

“I challenge every one of the other candidates to actually act on their convictions,” he said. “If you’re not going to pardon President Trump on Jan. 20, 2025, you deserve to say why and we will hold you accountable.”

Kinzinger explained that he believes there would be two potential schools of thought behind any pardon of Trump. From true believers like Vivek Ramaswamy: We need to pardon Donald Trump because he’s innocent. And from the Mike Pence (and I would include Nikki Haley) corner: We need to pardon Donald Trump to heal the country.

You can read here where most of the Republican pack stands on the question of pardoning Trump.

Related:

Top Republican Party officials have a message for any candidate worried about signing a loyalty pledge to potentially support a convicted felon: There’s the door…[Asa Hutchinson] express[ed] concerns about the Republican National Committee’s requirement that they support the eventual nominee in order to qualify for the debate stage this summer, [but] the committee said there will be no changes to its protocols.

Hutchinson is the only Republican candidate who has called for Trump to step down.

Second news item

Former Marine indicted for death of Jordan Neely on New York subway:

A grand jury has indicted former U.S. Marine Daniel Penny in connection with the chokehold death of Jordan Neely aboard a subway train.

The exact charges will not be unsealed until Penny appears in court on June 28, according to the Manhattan District Attorney’s office. Penny was initially arrested on a second-degree manslaughter charge.

Last month, our host took a long, hard look at the media reports that immediately followed Neely’s death and found them wanting, to put it mildly:

I’d like to share some thoughts about this case that I have not seen discussed in too many places. The narrative we have heard from many quarters is that this was a murder of a black man who was not threatening in any way, but simply said he was hungry and thirsty. He was then choked for 15 minutes by a white racist until he died, despite warnings of onlookers who tried to get the white racist to stop.

Nearly every aspect of that narrative is false.

Patterico explained:

I want to say up front that I’m not sure whether the charges are sound. Whether Bragg has a solid case depends on the evidence, and we’re not privy to all of the evidence the D.A. has collected. As a result, I don’t think it’s possible to know at this point whether the Manhattan D.A. was justified in bringing this charge, the elements of which I will analyze below.

The reason I tell you that early on in this piece is simple: I want you know right from the beginning that, while I have a lot to say to debunk aspects of the lazy narrative you’ve heard, that doesn’t mean that I have concluded that Penny’s actions were wholly justified in every respect. Put simply: if you’re someone who tends to see this killing is unjustified, I think you may well be right.

So if I tell you, for example, that the public narrative is wrong about Neely presenting no threat, or about this obviously being a race-based killing, please resist the urge to react instantaneously with the comment: “Oh, so you’re saying it’s OK to just choke this guy to death?” No, that is not what I am saying.

Third news item

Young guardsman, Jack Teixeira, also indicted in leaked documents case:

The Air National Guardsman accused of posting a trove of classified documents to social media has been formally indicted on six counts of willful retention and transmission of classified information related to national defense, the Justice Department announced on Thursday.

Jack Teixeira, a junior enlisted airman who worked within the Massachusetts Air National Guard’s 102nd Intelligence Wing, was arrested in April and charged under the Espionage Act. He allegedly took classified information from Otis Air National Guard Base and is accused of posting the information to Discord, a popular social media platform among gamers.

“Teixeira also posted images of classified documents to the social media platform, which bore standard classification markings – including ‘SECRET,’ ‘TOP SECRET,’ and SCI designations – indicating that they contained highly classified United States government information,” the Justice Department said in its announcement of the indictment.

Teixeira will remain in custody while he awaits trial.

Fourth news item

So exactly how has Trump polled since his indictment? Morning Consult:

Details:

Nearly 3 in 5 potential Republican primary (59%) voters back Trump for the party’s 2024 presidential nomination, up from 55% last week before news of his indictment on charges related to his handling of classified documents after leaving the White House. Almost 1 in 5 (19%) support DeSantis, nearing an all-time low since tracking began in December.

Pence, Christie and Burgum enter race with meager support: Former Vice President Mike Pence is backed by 8% of potential Republican primary voters, similar to his standing before he launched his bid on June 7. Two percent of the party’s prospective electorate supports former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, while zero percent support North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum.

It’s incredible that Trump continues to lead the Republican pack, even after a second indictment. It’s anybody’s guess what will finally break the back of Trump’s cult of personality. But given that there is an increasing number of actual conservative candidates to back, maybe MAGA voters will see that Trump really isn’t the best and the brightest…

Fifth news item

One step closer:

US President Joe Biden is comfortable with removing one of the hurdles for Ukraine to join NATO, a source familiar with the situation told CNN…Biden would be willing to drop the Membership Action Plan (MAP) for Ukraine, which was described in a 2008 agreement as “the next step for Ukraine … on their direct way to membership.” The MAP, characterized as “the program of advice, assistance and practical support tailored to the individual needs of countries wishing to join the Alliance,” is a process that other nations have had to undertake to join NATO.

Why this matters: Its removal would represent a small step in easing Ukraine’s accession into the defensive alliance…however, the United States still does not view Ukraine’s membership into the alliance as imminent due to reforms that Kyiv needs to make, and the source said the Stoltenberg proposal reflects this.

The report confirms that President Zelensky understands that Ukraine cannot become NATO members while at war.

Sixth news item

Ah:

Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa claimed on the Senate floor earlier this week that the foreign national who allegedly bribed then-Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter has 17 audio recordings of their conversations but questioned whether those tapes even existed in an interview with CNN days later.

“I don’t even know where they are. I just know they exist, because of what the report says. Now, maybe they don’t exist. But how will I know until the FBI tells us, are they showing us their work?” Grassley said Thursday.

House Oversight Chairman James Comer of Kentucky, who is overseeing the GOP investigation into the Biden family business dealings and has been quick to make the alleged bribery scheme a focus of his work, admitted to not knowing whether the tapes were legitimate.

“We don’t know if they’re legit or not, but we know that the foreign national claims he has them,” Comer said of the alleged recordings during a Tuesday interview on Newsmax.

House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan, who also serves on the Oversight panel and has made the Department of Justice and FBI a target of his investigative efforts, told CNN of the tapes, “I have no reason to doubt anything Senator Grassley says, but I don’t know if they exist or not.”

And Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson, who led his own investigation into the Biden family in 2020 and has long peddled the notion of wrongdoing, said in a separate Newsmax interview, “I’m not even aware that we verified those recordings exist.”

Seventh news item

Good news:

The top Republican on the US Senate foreign relations committee has introduced legislation authorising President Joe Biden to seize Russian sovereign assets and transfer them to Kyiv for the long-term reconstruction of Ukraine.

The move comes as both parties in Congress are increasing pressure on the Biden administration and its allies to find ways for Russian money to fund the billions of dollars that will be needed to rebuild Ukraine, rather than western taxpayers.

The bipartisan bill was filed on Thursday by Jim Risch, the Idaho Republican senator and the party’s top member of the foreign relations committee, along with Sheldon Whitehouse, a Rhode Island Democrat on the Senate judiciary committee.

It argues Russia “bears responsibility for the financial burden of the reconstruction of Ukraine” and gives the president the ability to “confiscate” frozen Russian sovereign assets in the US, including Russian central bank assets, so they can quickly be directed to Ukraine.

In addition, it calls on Biden to push for the establishment of a “common international compensation mechanism” with foreign partners as an additional way to funnel the seized Russian money to Kyiv.

Bill Browder gives the bill a thumb’s up:

The bill is well written and the most serious effort to date to confiscate Russian gov’t reserves. This should set the ball rolling for other countries to follow.

Eighth news item

Excerpts from a great interview with Natan Sharansky:

In a society under dictatorship, Sharansky says — has long said — there are three groups. On one end, there are true believers in the dictatorship. Sincere supporters. On the other end, there are outright dissidents, ready to sacrifice life and limb in a struggle for freedom. Both of these groups are very small. In between, there are “double thinkers” (a term originating in Orwell). They say one thing with their mouths but harbor other thoughts privately. They are governed by fear. When the double thinkers lose their fear and move into dissent — the dictatorship is finished.

That is the state of Russia today, says Sharansky. The group of double thinkers is massive. It is very, very dangerous to dissent. But once the double thinkers tip . . .

Of one thing, Sharansky is sure: Trying to appease Putin would be foolhardy. If you feed him parts of Ukraine, or parts of Poland, or a Baltic state or two, he will not be sated. He will merely take this as proof that “his strategy or tactics are working,” says Sharansky. The dictator will forge ahead. “So the only way to stop a dictator is to resist. The Western world, finally, is united in its understanding that Putin is a big threat. And we have to resist.”

Read the whole thing.

And have a great weekend!

–Dana

408 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Good morning!

    Dana (560c99)

  2. A resounding YES on the eighth item. Instructive on the question of what fear is in the mind of each voter in the U.S., and from where that fear is being pushed and enforced.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  3. Good morning, Dana! Thank you for all the work you do for us readers.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  4. Imran Khan could use a pardon, and the sooner the better. Vivek Ramaswamy and Nikki Haley should go and run for the Presidency of Pakistan. The sooner, the better.

    Like Trump did not already make America Third World enough. Sheesh!

    nk (2af257)

  5. This guy, doing what needed to be done, might have a better chance than D. Penny of avoiding hard time. Alvin Bragg seems like a fellow traveler of Kim Foxx, so that Mr. wWilliams can claim “mutual combat” and get off

    urbanleftbehind (d97485)

  6. A big thumbs up to item #7, too.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  7. Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa claimed on the Senate floor earlier this week that the foreign national who allegedly bribed then-Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter has 17 audio recordings of their conversations but questioned whether those tapes even existed in an interview with CNN days later.

    This is misleading. Grassley’s claim on the Senate floor is that the FBI has a 1023 that articulates a claim to the existence of the tapes.

    THE 1023 PRODUCED TO THE HOUSE COMMITTEE’S REDACTED REFERENCE THAT THE FOREIGN NATIONAL WHO ALLEGEDLY BRIBED JOE AND HUNTER BIDEN ALLEGEDLY HAS AUDIO RECORDINGS OF HIS CONVERSATION WITH THEM. 17 SUCH RECORDINGS. ACCORDING TO THE 1023, THE FOREIGN NATIONAL POSSESSES 15 AUDIO RECORDINGS OF PHONE CALLS BETWEEN HIM AND HUNTER BIDEN. ACCORDING TO THE 1023, THE FOREIGN NATIONAL POSSESSES TWO AUDIO RECORDINGS OF PHONE CALLS BETWEEN HIM AND THEN-VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN. THESE RECORDINGS WERE ALLEGEDLY KEPT AS A SORT OF INSURANCE POLICY FOR THE FOREIGN NATIONAL IN CASE THAT HE GOT INTO A TIGHT SPOT.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5074254/grassley-hunter-biden-burma-full-video

    The audio and the text are at the link above. Grassley’s actual beef is that the FBI decided to treat an unclassified document as classified, restricting visibility of the unclassified 1023, and went to the extraordinary step of redacting the mention of the bribery tapes.

    Either way, Grassley never asserted knowledge of the tapes, only knowledge that the FBI was informed about the existence of tapes. And now the FBI is behaving in what appears to be a hostile approach towards the Legislative Branch.

    BuDuh (629c92)

  8. Pat Benatar? ACDC and Black Sabbath and Marilyn Manson collectively object. More here.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  9. IF Grassley’s tapes exist and IF the FBI is covering up for Biden, it is probably more serious than Biden taking a bribe in itself.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  10. It argues Russia “bears responsibility for the financial burden of the reconstruction of Ukraine” and gives the president the ability to “confiscate” frozen Russian sovereign assets in the US, including Russian central bank assets, so they can quickly be directed to Ukraine.

    In addition, it calls on Biden to push for the establishment of a “common international compensation mechanism” with foreign partners as an additional way to funnel the seized Russian money to Kyiv.

    It absolutely is right and just that Russia should bear the costs of reconstruction in Ukraine, but we need to read our history of what happened after World War I before we go fully pell-mell into this. And that War ended with the surrender of Germany, which is a very unlikely outcome for this current conflict. The Russians, like the Germans, can carry a grudge for a long time.

    JVW (563bf0)

  11. FWIW, more polls:

    New Hampshire Poll: 11-Point Swing from DeSantis to Trump
    …………
    This particular survey was taken June 12-14, 2023, after Gov. Ron DeSantis, former Vice President Mike Pence, former New Jersey Gov. Chis Christie, and North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum jumped into the race. It also followed federal prosecutors indicting Trump.

    Despite all of that, Trump’s lead has actually increased among likely Granite State Republican primary voters over the last month, jumping from 39 percent support to 44 percent support — a five point increase.

    DeSantis fell six points over the last month, from 18 percent to 12 percent. This reflects an 11-point swing in Trump’s direction over the last month.
    …………….
    The survey found Sen. Tim Scott tying with former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie and experiencing a positive boost this month, moving from one percent in May to seven percent in June. Former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley also jumped from three percent to five percent support, and Pence went from one percent support to three percent support.
    ………….

    And

    Survey: Trump Dominating in California’s Republican Primary

    Trump has a commanding lead in the Golden State’s primary race, with a majority, 53 percent, choosing the former president as their candidate of choice. He is 34 points ahead of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, who comes in second place with 19 percent support.

    Trump has a commanding lead in the Golden State’s primary race, with a majority, 53 percent, choosing the former president as their candidate of choice. He is 34 points ahead of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, who comes in second place with 19 percent support.
    …………
    This appears to be the second major poll showing the former president with a commanding lead in the Golden State. A UC Berkeley Institute of Governmental Studies survey released in late May showed Trump leading by 18 points.
    ……………

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  12. And that War ended with the surrender of Germany, which is a very unlikely outcome for this current conflict.

    The only outcome that will prevent a repeat of the current situation is for Putin to be replaced with new leadership that recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign nation (as Russia did previously) and removes its military from Ukrainian territory.

    Rip Murdock (fb5489)

  13. Although I agree it is right for Russia to pay for rebuilding Ukraine, but I am not going to cheer legislators for their highly developed abilities to confiscate other people’s money. One of the most efficient sub-branches of government in the USA is IRS taxpayer quarterly and annual tax payments.

    steveg (01b432)

  14. I just know they exist, because of what the report says

    The report says that somebody said they exist. Double hearsay.

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  15. The person who supposedly said he had bribery tapes is an unavailable witness.And even the persn who says he was told in not available to the committtee and probably not in the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  16. Where did anybody ever get the idea that the FBI ever got any tapes?

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  17. Pee Tapes: The Retribution, a Wingnuts United Production.

    nk (e821ae)

  18. The FBI has never scoured the planet for dirt on a sitting President, so why start now by trying to confirm there are tapes? No one should ever question why the FBI redacted an unclassified 1023 and keeps it in a SCIF because they are all saints like Comey. The same Comey that gloated over being able to weasel into the Trump Administration in the early days because he took advantage of their unfamiliarity with the unwritten rules of how the game is played… because professional politicians realize every inquiry would be done from attorney to attorney, no one would be interviewed without their lawyer present, and that notice would have been delivered to FBI and DOJ minute one. ha ha ha, smug elitist Comey pulled one over on the newby rubes

    steveg (01b432)

  19. RIP Daniel Ellsberg (92).

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  20. Trump support up to nearly 60% of the GOP. SMDH. Again, I think this has the greatest potential for change come the first debate in August. However, I worry that another puffer like Ramaswamy will use his limited stage time to perversely defend Trump. His foolish pardon-Trump crusade….before any evidence has been tested…reveals him to be unqualified for the Presidency. I hope he doesn’t make it to the stage.

    Now, AllahNick has an interesting post pondering about the value of a 3rd party option for 2024. I get his reasoning that splitting the vote in winner-takes-all states is risky….and that with a strong 3rd party ticket like Hogan/Manchin, we might even see the result going to the House to pick. Does this give a cult candidate better or worse odds? I don’t know.

    But 60% still indicating support for Trump is discouraging for the long-term viability of the GOP. The party is looking more and more like a syndicate of sorts. It’s factually and morally confused. There’s so many representatives that I will have a hard time looking straight in the face given the smallness of their leadership. Still, I’m not sure what vacuum a 3rd party occupies…we already have right-leaning and left-leaning. I kind of just want an independent this cycle that might send both parties to a time out, with the hope of realignment for 2028. But can an independent get to 270 electoral college votes…or will the best showing being pushing the matter to the House? Can a moderate Hogan/Manchin ticket win in the House if both parties view them as spoilers? I don’t know.

    I do want to vote FOR someone in 2024, and not have to vote for past-his-sell-by-date Biden to stop a sociopath bent on retribution. I hope the debates can start to change some hearts and minds. With China breathing down our necks and Russia nervously fingering the button, is it really the time to choose between someone unhinged and someone who needs 4 naps a dap and reminders of what city he’s currently in? People need to do better…and start thinking about our country. We have to lessen our clench on partisanship and think about what we are doing to our democracy.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  21. If I can recommend something for everyone here, is to check out Joe Rogan’s interview with John F Kennedy.

    Try to approach it with no preconceive notion of Kennedy.

    It’s a bit of an eye opener for me.

    whembly (d116f3)

  22. Trump Civil Litigation Watch:

    A judge has set an early 2024 trial date for writer E. Jean Carroll’s original 2019 defamation case against former President Donald Trump.

    Judge Lewis Kaplan set a trial date of Jan. 15, 2024, for the case, in which Carroll claims then-President Trump defamed her in 2019 when he said she was “not my type” while denying that he raped her in a department store dressing room in the mid-1990s.
    …………..
    The Jan. 15 date puts the start of the upcoming trial one week before the scheduled date of the Iowa Republican caucuses, as Trump campaigns for a second term as president. However, Trump is not required to attend the civil trial, just as he did not attend the other trial last month.

    Judge Kaplan ruled earlier this week that Carroll could add to the original suit allegedly defamatory statements Trump made last month after he was found liable for sexually assaulting her.

    Trump has argued that the Justice Department should be substituted as the defendant in the original case because, at the time of his allegedly defamatory statements, he was acting in his official capacity as an employee of the federal government.
    ……………

    Related:

    The D.C. Court of Appeals has declined to answer whether then-President Donald Trump was acting within the scope of his employment when he allegedly defamed writer E Jean Carroll when denying her rape claim.

    Trump, who also denies defaming her, has argued that the Justice Department should be substituted as the defendant in the case because, at the time of his allegedly defamatory statements, he was acting in his official capacity as an employee of the federal government. Such a ruling would make the case go away, as the federal government cannot be sued for defamation.
    …………..
    “We have never adopted a rule that has determined that a certain type of conduct is per se within (or outside of) the scope of employment, and we decline to do so now,” the court said.
    …………….

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  23. If I can recommend something for everyone here, is to check out Joe Rogan’s interview with John F Kennedy.

    Try to approach it with no preconceive notion of Kennedy.

    It’s a bit of an eye opener for me.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:37 am

    I’ll bet, since Kennedy has been dead since 1963. 😜

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  24. : face palm :

    I meant Jr….lol.

    whembly (d116f3)

  25. I thought JFK, Jr. was dead, too.
    But RFK, Jr. is alive and was urged by Steve Bannon to run for president, for obvious reasons.
    RFK Jr. is an anti-vax nutter, which is the only reason he’s getting attention from the hard right.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  26. “so why start now by trying to confirm there are tapes?”

    And why aren’t they looking at that DC pizza parlor? What are they hiding? And after we tear apart the FBI, the DoJ, and the integrity of the vote, what institution should we devour next in service to our partisan angst?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  27. @25

    RFK Jr. is an anti-vax nutter, which is the only reason he’s getting attention from the hard right.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:54 am

    All I’m saying, is to may that determination yourself.

    Don’t take other people’s words as fact.

    I’ll say this: RFK jr. is NOT what his critics claims him to be.

    whembly (d116f3)

  28. : face palm :

    I meant Jr….lol.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:48 am

    He’s dead too.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  29. RFK Jr. should be Trump’s VP. It would be a bipartisan ticket, and they have much in common. Like Trump, RFK Jr. Is a conspiracy theorist and wannabe authoritarian.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  30. I’ll say this: RFK jr. is NOT what his critics claims him to be.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 12:05 pm

    His past statements say it all. I can’t wait for a press conference so he can answer his critics.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  31. I’m not saying I’d vote for him… I won’t. He’s a big government, big evironmentalist old school Democrat. I’d vote for Trump before voting for RFK jr.

    But, this Rogan podcast is enlightening.

    whembly (d116f3)

  32. whembly, I’ve been following RFK Jr. for almost 20 years, back when he was on talk radio for Air America. His views were dependably left-wing, but I went from okaywhatever to hellnoway RFK Jr. went the other way and doubled down after Lancet retracted its article on MMR vaccines. I studied that issue well enough 18 years ago.
    I caught half a minute of him on Rogan, where he accused the CIA of assassinating his uncle, and I don’t need to see any more batsh-t after already figuratively standing in his entire bat-infested cave.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  33. Re: Project 65 and why (<a href="“>according to the Dersh) there’s a more prosaic reason Trump can’t find a decent lawyer:

    ……….
    There may be other reasons as well for why lawyers are reluctant to defend Trump. He is not the easiest client, and he has turned against some of his previous lawyers, as some of his previous lawyers have turned against him. This will be a difficult case to defend and an unpopular one with many in the legal profession and in general population.
    ………

    Trump has been known to change lawyers as often as the sun rises and stiffing them when it comes time to pay the bills.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  34. The first link in post 33 is to post 656 in the previous Weekend Open Thread.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  35. Trump has been known to change lawyers as often as the sun rises and stiffing them when it comes time to pay the bills.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 12:57 pm

    Case in point.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  36. Judge orders Trump lawyers to seek security clearances
    …………
    In a brief order, (Judge Aileen) Cannon required all attorneys in the case — for Trump as well as his longtime valet, Walt Nauta, who is charged alongside him as an alleged co-conspirator — to contact the Justice Department about obtaining security clearances. The same instructions apply to any “forthcoming” attorneys, the judge said.

    It is common in criminal cases involving classified documents for defense attorneys to obtain security clearances.
    ………..
    Cannon ordered the attorneys to file a “notice of compliance” by June 20, a relatively rapid pace. Both Trump and Nauta are looking to fill out their legal teams in the coming days. Trump, in particular, has suffered setbacks as several of his veteran lawyers quit the case in the leadup to his indictment, the result of internal turmoil that has spilled into public view.
    ……….

    Related:

    The Justice Department on Friday filed a motion seeking to block former President Trump from releasing any classified materials that will be shared with his legal team during his prosecution for the mishandling of records at Mar-a-Lago, noting that some are still being used in the course of their investigation.
    …………
    “Defendants shall only have access to Discovery Materials under the direct supervision of Defense Counsel or a member of Defense Counsel’s staff. Defendants shall not retain copies of Discovery Material. Defendants may take notes regarding Discovery Materials, but such notes shall be stored securely by Defense Counsel,” the DOJ wrote.
    ………..
    “The Discovery Materials, along with any information derived therefrom, shall not be disclosed to the public or the news media, or disseminated on any news or social media platform, without prior notice to and consent of the United States or approval of the Court,” the department wrote.
    …………
    Judge Aileen Cannon, who oversaw Trump’s previous challenge to the investigation, referred the motion to magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart, who approved the initial search of Mar-a-Lago.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  37. Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:07 pm

    It’s questionable that Christopher Kise can obtain a clearance, as he is (or was) a registered foreign agent for Venezuela.

    Rip Murdock (fb5489)

  38. 32. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 12:55 pm

    I caught half a minute of him on Rogan, where he accused the CIA of assassinating his uncle, and I don’t need to see any more batsh-t after already figuratively standing in his entire bat-infested cave.

    That’s why he won;t get much more than 40% against awrite-in campagn for Joe Biden in New Hampshire.

    The CIA did not pick the parade route, This was one of the more irrational theories.

    If he studied it, he’d blame Governor Connally, acting on the advice of his friend and former college roommate. Eugene Locke. And Mark Lane, of course, was part of the conspiracy – a lawyer to shut Oswald up.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  39. steveg (01b432) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:56 am

    The same Comey that gloated over being able to weasel into the Trump Administration in the early days because he took advantage of their unfamiliarity with the unwritten rules of how the game is played…

    Not them. Mike Flynn. They caught him in a lie, and got him fired.

    because professional politicians realize every inquiry would be done from attorney to attorney, no one would be interviewed without their lawyer present, and that notice would have been delivered to FBI and DOJ minute one.

    Flynn would just not have consented to an interview.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  40. And Mark Lane, of course, was part of the conspiracy – a lawyer to shut Oswald up.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:21 pm

    You don’t believe the Warren Commission, or Vincent Bugliosi, an ace prosecutor who wrote a tome debunking the conspiracy theories?

    norcal (8b5267)

  41. Daniel Ellsberg RIP

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/daniel-ellsberg-pentagon-papers-whistleblower-dies-92-rcna73171

    His case got dismissed on the basis of misconduct.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  42. Xi Jinping passed his 70th birthday yesterday.

    Vladimir Putin is also aged 70.

    The median age of world leaders is 62 according to a WSJ news article.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-xi-jinping-turns-70-but-communist-party-wont-celebrate-73b183a0

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/24/who-are-the-oldest-and-youngest-current-world-leaders/sr_23-02-24_ageofleaders_1/

    For dictators (or leaders of not free countries) the median age is 69.

    Maybe they both 69 when that list was compiled?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  43. Parroting Trump’s incessant lies that the 2020 election was stolen was now on the bill.

    More exactly not contradicting him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  44. Iowa state supreme court stops 6 week abortion ban giving republicans running for president and conservative media who want to talk about trannies and drag queen and avoid talking about 6 week abortion ban a post natal abortion! (DU) By the way call into national conservative talk shows why they won’t talk about abortion. Only trannie talk. I did this to joe peggs and the late night bobbsie twins out of dallas texas and both refused and hung up on me! Thats how scared they are of abortion politics!

    asset (3cf89e)

  45. Henry Kissinger turned 100 two weeks ago Saturday. He’s still giving interviews.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  46. Daniel ellsberg a profile in courage. We need more whistleblowers and that means for biden administration too!

    asset (3cf89e)

  47. @45 Satan is patiently waiting for dr. strangelove.

    asset (3cf89e)

  48. There’s a fascinating article going around today about marijuana taxes in LA County and how dispensary owners are caught in an unfixable bind:

    * state regs require the state tax to be imposed on the total including local taxes

    * LA county regs require the county tax to be imposed on the total including state taxes

    so how much tax do you owe?

    (there’s a bill in the state legislature to fix this. it’s passed out of one house and hasn’t been acted on yet in the other)

    aphrael (b5173c)

  49. More on DOJ’s Trump Indictment Protective Order:

    ………
    “The materials also include information pertaining to ongoing investigations, the disclosure of which could compromise those investigations and identify uncharged individuals,” Smith’s counselor Jay Bratt wrote in a three-page motion.
    ……….
    “This draft order clearly leaves open the possibility that additional people will be charged,” (former federal prosecutor Mitchell Epner) said, adding that it also dangles the possibility of more charges against Trump and aide Walt Nauta, who’s charged with him.
    ……….
    “This is the protective order that Trump is going to find extraordinarily difficult to comply with,” said Epner, who’s currently a partner at Rottenberg Lipman Rich PC.

    Under its terms, Trump cannot disclose ” even the non-classified discovery to anyone outside his defense team,” he noted.
    ………..

    I suspect that at some point there will be a superceding indictment with more charges and possibly more co-conspirators,and possibly involving crimes at Bedminster.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  50. aphrael (b5173c) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:49 pm

    I correctly predicted the problem California and other states would have even before they legalized marijuana.

    I told myself they better be careful and not tax it too much, or else the black market would still thrive.

    Guess what? They taxed it too much, the black markets thrive, and the legal pot business is hurting in many areas. (Some states were smarter about it, and have no or low taxes.)

    It’s basic economics, dummies.

    norcal (8b5267)

  51. In New York, they licensed stores, but didn’t even bother to actually hand out mmore than a paltry few licenses.

    They are now going to use the same tactics against illegal marijuana stores as against liquor stores without a license.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a9ddc)

  52. JVW (563bf0) — 6/16/2023 @ 9:39 am

    . And that War ended with the surrender of Germany, which is a very unlikely outcome for this current conflict. The Russians, like the Germans, can carry a grudge for a long time.

    I think somebody in Russia had an idea of setting up a stab-in-the-back theory, but things are different. There is absolutely no support for this war in Russia. (except by a few people who hope to gain from it)

    Sammy Finkelman (8a9ddc)

  53. we know that the foreign national claims he has them,”

    I think not the same foreign national who told the FBI about them.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a9ddc)

  54. Where did anybody ever get the idea that the FBI ever got any tapes?

    I like how it’s “tapes” too and not digital recordings. I can just see this guy saying, “Hey, wait, I need you to speak directly into this cassette [maybe it was even an 8-track] recorder.”

    JVW (563bf0)

  55. I told myself they better be careful and not tax it too much, or else the black market would still thrive.

    Guess what? They taxed it too much, the black markets thrive, and the legal pot business is hurting in many areas. (Some states were smarter about it, and have no or low taxes.)

    Not only that, norcal, but they gave homegrowers the ability to grow a whole shit-ton of weed for “personal” use. The official law says up to “six plants” for each legal adult, but the government has no real way of knowing whether you have 6, 16, or 60 plants in your home. No way that wasn’t going to get abused by people looking to make a quick buck.

    And I saw firsthand in Colorado how once marijuana became legalized and taxed that law enforcement suddenly switched from trying to prevent open sales and consumption to trying to ensure that nobody was selling the stuff without the state getting its tribute.

    JVW (563bf0)

  56. If I can recommend something for everyone here, is to check out Joe Rogan’s interview with John F Kennedy.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:37 am

    No thanks. Like Paul, I’ve been through this before. A few years ago, at the urging of a 9/11 Truther friend who insisted RFK Jr wasn’t a wild-eyed anti-vaxxer, I read an interminable RFK Jr. interview which confirmed that he is indeed a rabidly, conspiracy-addled anti-vaxxer. He just prefaces the nonsense with uncontroversial fluff that no one ever accused him of disputing. Then he lowers the boom with the wackadoodle. It goes something like this:

    1. I’ve always said the sky is blue.
    2. Show me where I claimed water isn’t wet. Crickets, huh?
    3. Of course up is up and down is down. We’re in total agreement!
    4. It follows that Yakub and Xenu had a love child whom they named him Bill Gates, Jr., and sent him to earth to inject humanity with 5g transmitters that will enslave us to our lizard overlords. It’s all very simple and straightforward. I’m not crazy.

    Fool me once….

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  57. JVW (563bf0) — 6/16/2023 @ 4:03 pm

    Excellent point, JVW

    norcal (8b5267)

  58. lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/16/2023 @ 4:14 pm

    That right there is some nk-level humor!

    norcal (8b5267)

  59. @norcal: That’s quite the compliment. I’m duly flattered.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  60. Yes, it is indeed remarkably admirable, principled to redact unclassified documents and put them in a SCIF. This is an administrative process brim full of utmost transparency, honesty that should be encouraged and applauded. We should all emulate this on our next Schedule D and Form 8949, also have our investment teams and our investment partners redact all Form 1099’s before sending to the IRS. Then sit back and soak in the accolades, maybe get a book deal (that we’d of course redact on our next return). This shouldn’t trigger an audit because I am clearly the most virtuous person I know having ascended to my position like Jesus amongst a host of angels

    steveg (8f3b60)

  61. Speaking of pot, I’m still a pot virgin. You see, first I was a Mormon. Then I was a federal employee. Now that I’m retired I’m curious.

    Is it worth trying? Indica or sattiva? It can’t be worse than booze, right?

    norcal (8b5267)

  62. The word “tape” would never be used instead of “recording”.

    steveg (8f3b60)

  63. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:31 am

    Were it up to me I’d take Hogan/Manchin in a heartbeat over Biden or any of the announced GOP candidates (except maybe Hutchinson, who, let’s face it, is about as viable as zombie Harold Stassen). But back on Planet Earth I have to agree with AllahNick. The risk of a 3d party bid backing Trump into the White House is too high. As long as Trump is a possible outcome, I’m a single issue voter.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  64. Norcal. My friends who do started at a half gummy before bed. I used a lot back in the 70’s and don’t want to go do the 70’s over

    I worked for large scale legal cannabis growers here. Very unexciting project that at the time paid very well because they were swimming in cash. Our county has since endured a huge shortfall in tax revenue and had hired large teams to oversee the regulations put on the young industry, so the County is also losing money on cannabis. Legal marijuana is certified organic, workers are protected by labor laws, grow sites require visual screening, odor mitigated, product is heavily taxed etc. Consumption isn’t the problem, so what is the cause of the tax revenue shortfall? The geniuses now have come up with the idea that rather than taxing revenue a fraction, they would charge the grower per acre under production. This would provide “stable” tax revenue to the County even if the grower lost money on the product, they would still owe tax on the acreage. They only thing missing here would be a five year plan written by other neo Stalinists that forces growers to put more acres into production every year so tax revenues can climb regardless to profitability.

    Of course this is a bonanza for illegal growers in the already well established black market. They have none of the organic this or that, odor prevention, union organizing, wage regulations, working conditions, water costs, 18 yo age requirements, taxation etc and can price their product at 15% below legal marijuana and still have 30% higher margins. Dealers will even offer delivery to regular customers. California manages to have $3.59T GDP despite itself

    steveg (8f3b60)

  65. Why the Future of Data Storage is (Still) Magnetic Tape
    Disk drives are reaching their limits, but magnetic tape just gets better and better

    … the medium’s advantages are many. To begin with, tape storage is more energy efficient: Once all the data has been recorded, a tape cartridge simply sits quietly in a slot in a robotic library and doesn’t consume any power at all. Tape is also exceedingly reliable, with error rates that are four to five orders of magnitude lower than those of hard drives. And tape is very secure, with built-in, on-the-fly encryption and additional security provided by the nature of the medium itself. After all, if a cartridge isn’t mounted in a drive, the data cannot be accessed or modified. This “air gap” is particularly attractive in light of the growing rate of data theft through cyberattacks.

    The offline nature of tape also provides an additional line of defense against buggy software. For example, in 2011, a flaw in a software update caused Google to accidentally delete the saved email messages in about 40,000 Gmail accounts. That loss occurred despite there being several copies of the data stored on hard drives across multiple data centers. Fortunately, the data was also recorded on tape, and Google could eventually restore all the lost data from that backup.

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-future-of-data-storage-is-still-magnetic-tape-2650377246

    Sorry Joe, no Stuxnet for you!

    BuDuh (629c92)

  66. Is it worth trying? Indica or sattiva? It can’t be worse than booze, right?

    norcal (8b5267) — 6/16/2023 @ 4:36 pm

    Some prefer one, some the other. I hate both so I’m a bad subject. My only advice would be, tread lightly. Today’s weed is much stronger than it was when I dabbled in my misspent youth, and it was too strong for me even then. When it became legal a few years ago I tried it again for the first time in decades to test its purported analgesic effect. It was a white knuckle reefer madness hour or so. Never again. Needless to say, a lot of people suffer no such ill effects, but anxiety is far from unusual, especially for “mature” users. Anyway, I’d say go with sativa the first time. Start with one hit and give it a few minutes to work before you decide if you want more. Or you could do the edible that steveg suggests, but in my limited, decades-old experience, whatever the comparable dose, edible effects last longer.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  67. steveg (8f3b60) — 6/16/2023 @ 5:07 pm

    Thanks, Steve. If I try it, I think I’ll just eat the unrefined product baked into a brownie or something. Gummies just seem too refined. I want it in its natural state as much as possible.

    One of the pleasures of visiting Taiwan is the ability to procure raw sugarcane stalks to munch on. They are much better-tasting (and healthier, I suspect) than eating white sugar.

    norcal (8b5267)

  68. Thank you for spending some time enlightening a marijuana virgin, lurker.

    norcal (8b5267)

  69. @63, Here’s my thinking: Democrats are not so uninspired by Biden to go off and vote for Hogan, a moderate but still a Republican,….and Manchin doesn’t exactly help with the left-side of the aisle. That ticket would appeal more for the center right, honest-to-god independents, and the near-endangered Sam-Nunn part of the Democrat party.

    I agree that Trump benefits from chaos….and no hard-MAGA will jump to vote for a NeverTrumper. So you would have to draw from soft-MAGA. The bigger problem would be if the Electoral votes get split 3 ways, and the election goes to the House and its state delegations. Who knows how that shakes out. I can’t imagine anyone agreeing and it all blowing up into a Constitutional crisis.

    There is uncertainty as to where Hogan/Manchin would draw from…but there’s also uncertainty that Biden stays alive, so we’re gambling one way or the other. I can understand why many NeverTrumpers would say give Normal a chance. Two months to debate #1….

    AJ_Liberty (022369)

  70. @40 This is what happened as hillary clinton titled her tell all (actually tell very little) book. There were people in the c.i.a. and mafia who hated kennedy and in some cases hatched plots as jim garrison found evidence of plotting. Many others hated kennedy on the right and some plotted, and here comes this nobody commie cypher who works on the parade route walks right up to the window and shoots! Big problem their is evidence off all this meaningless plotting around. Then jack ruby another nobody cypher (but with ties to the mafia) walks into the police station and within 30 seconds of entering the police station basement shoots and kills oswald. Know wonder everyone was screaming “THEY” got oswald and CONSPIRACY! I was 14 back then I remember what was going on around me and on tv.

    asset (881b12)

  71. @69 biden and democrat party does not fear RFK ;but a candidate from the left so have been appeasing the left wing of the party to stop AOC or bernie from running and tearing the democrat party apart. Dr. cornel west is seeking green party 2024 nomination and will be the next jill stein as green party will be on the ballot in wisconsin in 2024. Why is this important? 2016 green party jill stein on wisc. ballot trump wins state by 22,000 votes with stein getting 36,000 votes. In 2020 democrats got green party kicked off wisc. ballot biden wins by 20,000 votes Green party of ballot in az/ga. biden wins by 10,000/13,000 votes. I was one of 1300+ who wrote in green party and had my write ballot counted. If some big name steps in front of dr. west would terrorize the democratic establishment as republicans in congress say social spending cuts not deep enough and won’t hurt the poor and blacks enough. They want more spending cuts. Democrat donor class will cave to protect their $$$. The left won’t and may run against biden in primary.

    asset (881b12)

  72. Heaven forfend we refer to video recording as filming

    steveg (8f3b60)

  73. Shocking:

    Top Republican Party officials have a message for any candidate worried about signing a loyalty pledge to potentially support a convicted felon: There’s the door.
    ………….
    In light of Donald Trump’s indictment for his handling of classified documents, former Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson’s campaign on Wednesday requested a meeting with RNC officials about amending the loyalty pledge, according to two people with knowledge of the conversation granted anonymity to speak candidly about a private conversation.

    ……….. During the brief call (with a Hutchinson campaign staffer), RNC leaders declined to make any changes to debate requirements and told the staffer the committee is “not dealing with hypotheticals” on Trump’s legal fate. One of the individuals with knowledge of the call described it as “contentious.”
    ……………..
    Hutchinson, who is currently polling at about 1 percent in most recent polls, told POLITICO on Wednesday that he intended to ask the committee to adjust the language in the pledge. He took issue with having to potentially support a nominee who could be found guilty of felonies, in the wake of Trump’s 37-count federal indictment unsealed earlier in the week. He said he also planned to speak with some of his fellow primary opponents about making a similar request.

    “I’m not going to vote for him if he’s a convicted felon,” Hutchinson said in the interview. “‘I’m not going to vote for him if he’s convicted of espionage, and I’m not going to vote for him if he’s (convicted of) other serious crimes. And I’m not going to support him.”

    “They need to put a little rationality to what is said in that oath or that pledge,” Hutchinson continued, referring to the RNC.

    POLITICO reached out to the other declared candidates, but none said they wanted the RNC to amend the loyalty pledge. ………….
    …………….
    The RNC has made Trump’s legal woes the subject of some of its recent fundraising appeals……….(T)he themes of the emails echo the ones the Trump campaign itself has used in rallying to the former president’s defense.
    …………

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  74. Question: If his opponents don’t have a big issue with Trump’s crimes, why should the primary voters?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  75. His past statements say it all. I can’t wait for a press conference so he can answer his critics.

    While I think that’s right, at least about vaccinations (I think he’s a proponent of the autism theory) remember that what you know about him was handed to you by the media.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  76. The Brits struck Dr Andrew Wakefield off the medical list in response to the Lancet article fraud, his profit motive in publishing said fraud, and his malpractice with autistic children connected with his falsified research.

    RFK Jr is a politician, and we (clearly!) cannot strike politicians off a register. Maybe we should license them and then revoke the license for great cause. I can think of one.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  77. You don’t believe the Warren Commission, or Vincent Bugliosi, an ace prosecutor who wrote a tome debunking the conspiracy theories?

    Most (or perhaps all) of the conspiracies are bunk. At most one of them is true. But the Warren Commission report is also bunk. It does not seem reasonable that Oswald could have hit the President twice in a moving vehicle with a bolt action rifle and no scope.

    We will never know as Oswald never came to trial. He was shot by a guy in the police station as the cops were holding him up. I saw it live.

    When this kind of thing happens overseas (e.g. Manila airport) we know the story is total rubbish.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  78. Norcal. My friends who do started at a half gummy before bed.

    I quit smoking weed when I was 20 years old. I have no desire to resume again. But in the last few months I have started eating a gummy just before bed on nights when I really want to get a full sleep. It does seem to help me get a good night’s sleep without waking up as often as I usually do. Mind you, I don’t do this very often because I don’t want to get in the habit of requiring a drug in order to fall asleep. I think in the last four months I’ve taken a gummy before bed maybe three times. But I do get the sense that it helps me drift off faster, and it cuts down on my constant waking up throughout the night.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  79. Were it up to me I’d take Hogan/Manchin in a heartbeat over Biden or any of the announced GOP candidates (except maybe Hutchinson, who, let’s face it, is about as viable as zombie Harold Stassen). But back on Planet Earth I have to agree with AllahNick. The risk of a 3d party bid backing Trump into the White House is too high. As long as Trump is a possible outcome, I’m a single issue voter.

    And this is why we lose. Biden is as bad as Trump long-term. Trump’s incompetence and aversion to facts makes his use of power chaotic and without lasting effect.

    Biden is continuing to drag us towards an unsustainable socialism that — even if it was all good — will run out of money shortly.

    Both choices are catastrophic. Given that, I will vote for an alternative. Third party if that’s all there is. If I vote for something I hate, the will think I want more of it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  80. Allahnick is getting a LOT of pushback from his readers on this one. To begin with his article seems a bit intellectually dishonest as it conflates Perot’s centrist campaign with the loony fringe parties and neglects that Perot was leading in the polls, and then went crazy. And still got 19% of the vote.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  81. “It does not seem reasonable that Oswald could have hit the President twice in a moving vehicle with a bolt action rifle and no scope.”

    It was a x4 scope. The biggest mystery is when exactly the shot that missed was fired. We know when the neck wound approximately happened based on JFK’s involuntary reaction and Connally turning after the car emerges from behind a sign (Zapruder frames 220-225). We know when the head shot was (frame Z313). There were ~0.055s between Zapruder frames. So about 5 seconds between coming from behind the sign and the head shot. If the third shot happened in between, then it’s too quick for Oswald to likely have done it. But if the 3rd shot was earlier and that one missed, hitting the curb with debris striking James Tague, then the timing works. So probably somewhere between 9 and 11 seconds for all 3 shots. Quite reasonable.

    The problem with Ruby is that there are a couple of big coincidences that made the timing work. The biggest is that Ruby spent time wiring a stripper money right before going to the station. It happened that Oswald’s transfer got delayed due to getting a coat. If Oswald isn’t delayed then Ruby is not there in time. Kind of unlikely for a choreagraphed hit.

    AJ_Liberty (022369)

  82. Nick also countenances lawfare against No Labels, to keep them off state ballots. He doesn’t say it outright, but the message is there just the same.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  83. They had to come up with a “magic” bullet that caromed all over the place to make that timing work. Occam’s razor says there was at least one other gunman. The murder of Oswald in police custody strained by credulity to the breaking point.

    As for Oswald’s delay matching Ruby’s progress, I’d say it was pretty good choreography. As in “The guy’s not here yet, find a way to delay.” They do that in every third TV drama.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  84. *strained MY credulity

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  85. @79 what is unsustainable is laissez faire capitalism. As you will find out when the warming oceans thaw the methane gas frozen at the bottom of the oceans and bring it to the surface!

    asset (881b12)

  86. If you ever saw the smirk on oswald’s face as I did you wouldn’t have any doubts about him getting even with everyone.

    asset (881b12)

  87. And this is why we lose.

    Who’s “we,” kemosabe? I’m more conservative than liberal, but I have no brand loyalty to either party. In light of recent years’ persistent pandering to the despot-wannabe FPOTUS, I’m currently committed to defeating the GOP.

    Biden is as bad as Trump long-term.

    I couldn’t disagree more. My candidate priorities align pretty well with our host’s. Even if I concede for arguments’ sake that Trump is marginally less awful on policy, there are countless ways he’s infinitely worse on character, and I give more weight to character differences than I do policy. I believe the import of the President’s head of state role is vastly underappreciated, and Trump did more to devalue that national asset than Elon Musk has done to Twitter.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  88. The RNC has made Trump’s legal woes the subject of some of its recent fundraising appeals……….(T)he themes of the emails echo the ones the Trump campaign itself has used in rallying to the former president’s defense.

    Up here we’d say, “Trump put them on the street and they’re bringing home the money”.

    “Idaho?”

    “Yeah, you da ho.”

    nk (2295aa)

  89. @83, all of your misconceptions are addressed here

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-gerald-posner/

    AJ_Liberty (022369)

  90. @79 what is unsustainable is laissez faire capitalism.

    1) We have not had that since 1935, at the latest.
    2) Socialism collapses at every turn, while socialists instead predict the fall of capitalism.
    3) Capitalism just hasn’t been done right yet.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  91. Who’s “we,” kemosabe? Us. America. The citizens. The hard working stiffs who expect government to have their backs, and not as a knife-receptacle.

    The insistence that we pick Team R or Team D, of else the wrong side will win (go back and read @63 for my referent) is what keeps us from moving past these two toxic parties.

    As is stands, the GOP is dead while Trump lives, and the Democrats are dead forever. There is a vast gap between them and demanding that people pick one or the other for fear of “wasting one’s vote” is at best ironic.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  92. Even if I concede for arguments’ sake that Trump is marginally less awful on policy, there are countless ways he’s infinitely worse on character

    That may be but Biden’s massive character defects only seem OK because they’ve been normalized. In short, Biden wants to lead organized government theft to take from the productive and give to the unproductive. And he is willing to be incredibly destructive of the economy to do that.

    Example: He favors annual taxation of current paper gains in investments, taxation that will require liquidation of investments to pay, neglecting the change in expectations that will result in more consumption and less investing.

    This single plank in his platform is enough to make it impossible for me to vote for him.

    Trump is destructive, and stupid, and incompetent and evil, but he is also TEMPORARY. Biden’s designs are long-term and he has the ability to bring some of them to fruition. If you dispute that, tell me when Obamacare is likely to be repealed.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  93. @83, all of your misconceptions are addressed here

    My point is that ALL theories of the JFK assassination have been repeatedly debunked. Only one can be right and I see no reason to assume it’s the Warren Commission report.

    Even if Oswald was the lone shooter, his motive is weak and there are others who wanted JFK dead. Sadly, Oswald never got to talk.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  94. Worth study: Aaron Sarin’s “The Reverse Opium War”.

    An epidemic is stalking American cities. Every day, men and women die on sidewalks, in bus shelters, on park benches. Some die sprawled in crowded plazas at midday; others die slumped in the corners of lonely gas station bathrooms. Internally, however, the circumstances are the same. They all end their lives swimming in the warm amniotic dream of a lethally dangerous opioid. When it comes, the moment of death is imperceptible: coaxed by the drug further and further from shore, the user simply floats out too far, passing some unmarked point of no return. The heartbeat weakens, the breathing slows and shallows. As soft an end as anyone might wish for.

    This is the fentanyl crisis. It may seem strange to connect a very modern and very American phenomenon to a brace of wars waged 200 years ago by the British Empire on the last of the Chinese dynasties. But so the rhetoric runs: we are witnessing a Reverse Opium War; a belated Sinic revenge.

    For the ChiComs, there very definitely is a connection.

    Jim Miller (f456ae)

  95. Oswald was deeply pro-Castro, even handing out flyers for the Fair Play for Cuba committee (pictures confirm this). He even went to Mexico City in Sep 1963 to try and defect. Oswald was always trying to fit in. He was court-martialed twice in the Marines, once for accidentally shooting himself, another for fighting an officer. He defected to the USSR and they didn’t want him either. He moved from job to job without much success or promise. But he did have his delusions of grandeur. It was always someone else’s fault. Capitalism let him down. Soviet communism let him down. Next up was Fidel and revolution. Always searching for somewhere he could fit in and realize his importance.

    Even hs marriage was a sh*t show. He beat his wife, she would leave, and he would beg for him to come back. Rinse and repeat. At the time of the assassination they were separated again. He visited Marina right before the assassination asking her to take him back. She refused. He left his ring and a sizable bit of money with her. We can only speculate, but what if she had taken him back? Would he have packed up the rifle and taken it to work the morning of Nov 22? Very possibly no. He was at a crossroad and 4 days earlier he learned that the Presidential motorcade was now going right by his work. His date with destiny?

    When important people are assassinated, we naturally want big motives and highly sophisticated plots. Sometimes the truth is simpler.

    Oswald was a loner. He was unstable. He was not exactly successful or skilled. He’s not someone you put at the center of a conspiracy. The same goes for Ruby. Maybe Oswald thought this was his way to earn his bonafides to get into Cuba.

    But he was the only employee at the TSBD to flee the scene of the crime. He did kill officer Tippett. He did try to hide out at a theater. He did resist arrest at the theater. He owned the gun found at the TSBD and had pictures taken with it. He likely also tried to assassinate Gen Edwin Walker earlier that year. He had pictures of Walker’s house among his possessions and Marina confirmed the attempt. If he shot at Walker, it sure raises the possibility that he would try and shoot someone else.

    We hate putting someone so small next to someone so Charismatic as JFK. We want a bigger explanation. But sometimes the evidence leaves us wanting more drama. This is that case.

    AJ_Liberty (022369)

  96. On marijuana use: Dr. Leanna Wen favors decriminalization — but thinks that rational people should avoid using it.

    These findings struck me as especially important:

    The detrimental impacts are particularly profound for young people. A large study from New Zealand found that frequent use of marijuana during adolescence was linked to an average loss of six IQ points by mid-adulthood. A JAMA Internal Medicine analysis tracked more than 5,000 young adults for 25 years and reported that cumulative lifetime exposure of marijuana was correlated with worse memory.

    (Links omitted.)

    Women of child-bearing age should know about the bad effects using marijuana can have on unborn babies.

    One would expect that these detrimental effects to be stronger now, given the much higher potency of current marijuana products, compared to those available decades ago.

    Could that New Zealand finding help explain the “reverse Flynn effect”? Possibly.

    (Full disclosure: I used marijuana a few times as young adult, voluntarily and involuntarily.)

    Jim Miller (f456ae)

  97. Completely off topic: Marvel Comics kills off “The Punisher”, after destroying him mentally by reducing his life’s work to ashes. Why? Apparently he attracted too many “conservatives” and not everyone gets “included” in the new order.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  98. @95:

    Even if Oswald did it, we don’t know how that got set up, or why Oswald was ready with the rifle at the right time. He was a perfect patsy (and he said as much), but he was shut up pretty damn quick.

    When they tried this with Aquino in Manila, it was an obvious setup. But that could not happen here, right?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  99. @96:

    I’ve used pot more than a little bit, but not since 1988, which I quite everything including booze, which also has harmful effects. I know someone who has smoked pot daily since and he’s wasted his entire life doing it. He’s a Bernie Bro now, thinking that his failure (he lives in a trailer in the desert without A/C) is due to capitalism.

    Do I think it should be legal? It mostly is. I think that the states which have legalized it are mistaken in their approach. Nearly every legalization regime is less strict than with alcohol, particularly with a lack of licensing to control illicit sales. Heck, tobacco sales (and use) are more strictly regulated in places.

    Will people get in trouble using pot? I have no doubt. I also know others will not. A lot like alcohol in that regard. It’s not heroin. OTOH, I would not vote fro a candidate you still used it (or let them watch my kids).

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  100. *when I quit everything

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  101. Yes, the evidence points to Putin for breaching Nova Kakhovda dam, as expected.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  102. @Jim@96 My main concern with legalization was that kids would have a lot easier time getting ahold of it because it would be around a lot more and parents would be casual about how they talk about it and how they keep track of their stash. A lot of people felt that it was not a significant concern and now we have a bunch of 12 year olds vaping it in the bathrooms. This year even our elementary schools reported kids vaping it in the bathrooms.

    Nic (896fdf)

  103. Were it up to me I’d take Hogan/Manchin in a heartbeat over Biden or any of the announced GOP candidates (except maybe Hutchinson)……..

    Is there anything that says the two are interested in running together, or is this an instance of 2024 election wishful thinking?

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  104. This Is The Biggest Story of Our Lifetime (If True):

    …………
    According to reporting by veteran journalists Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal, the reporters who broke the original (Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program) AATIP UFO program story for the New York Times in 2017, along with Australian investigative journalist Ross Coulthart, a whistleblower from deep inside the government has come forward with some remarkable claims.

    He has records of a deep, black-budget program where the American military is in possession of multiple “craft,” both partial and intact, that have been determined to be of “non-human origin.” And that’s not all. He claims we’ve had them for a long time and the Pentagon never told Congress about it or submitted the program to congressional oversight. Kean and Blumenthal’s article appears at The Debrief and it’s full of eye-opening allegations from someone who is well-positioned to know such things.
    …………..
    You’ll need to click through and read the entire article because there are so many facets to this story that it’s hard to wrap your head around them. ………. First of all, the identity of the whistleblower is known. His name is David Charles Grusch, 36. He was a decorated combat officer in Afghanistan and went on to work in some of the deepest layers of the intelligence community at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). ………..

    Grusch said that we’ve been recovering everything from fragments to intact vehicles of non-human origin and trying to study them “for decades.” ……….. He said that the materials are “of exotic origin” and possess “unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures.”

    It’s also worth pointing out that he cleared all of his statements with his superiors before talking to reporters. He is further protected from government retaliation by the whistleblower protection provisions of the 2023 NDAA.
    ………..
    ……….. We still don’t absolutely know if this is true. No exotic materials or even documents have been released for public examination. While there are many highly-placed people vouching for Grusch’s reputation, all of this still relies on the testimony of one man. It’s almost inconceivable that a man in his position would risk his entire career and reputation to make up a tale like this, but if we’re being honest, we can’t rule it out with 100% certainty…………
    ……………….

    Paragraph breaks added.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  105. #102 Nic – I agree with you. And from what I have seen in press accounts, marijuana use is particularly dangerous for adolescents.

    In her column, Dr. Wen reminds us that many Americans do not know about the dangers of marijuana. So many parents are not warning their kids, as they should be doing.

    Jim Miller (670909)

  106. Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/17/2023 @ 12:12 pm

    Related:

    ………..
    Spurred by growing evidence of the (unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP)) problem, Congress took additional steps, establishing the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO).

    …………There are persistent rumors that the U.S. government recovered “crash materials” from UAP, and even that the government has been working secretly to reverse engineer the technology.
    …………
    Since AARO was established, I have referred four witnesses to them who claim to have knowledge of a secret U.S. government program involving the analysis and exploitation of materials recovered from off-world craft.

    Other sources who, rightly or wrongly do not trust AARO’s leadership, have also contacted me with additional details and information about an alleged secret U.S. government reverse engineering program. Some have supplied information to the intelligence community’s inspector general, others directly to staff of the congressional oversight committees. ………
    ………….
    …………. I’ve always believed the public has a right to know the truth. However, after much reflection, I’ve also concluded the public needs to know the truth. I say this for the following reasons:

    Democracy requires transparency.
    …………

    We own any discovery.

    Any recovered materials belong to the American people. Any secretive government programs that may have existed were funded by American tax dollars and as such, any proceeds belong to the taxpayer.

    We can handle it.

    Although disclosure would initially frighten and shock many people, polling data reveals that most Americans already believe we are not alone in the universe. Further, a high percentage of Americans already believe some UAP are in fact extraterrestrial craft. Our ancestors persevered despite profound fears of the unknown and so can we.

    We don’t control UAP.

    ………..(I)t is only a matter of time before more compelling UAP imagery and data emerges. Although UAP generally seem to avoid public exposure, there are exceptions. For example:

    the March 1950 incident in which dozens of UAP flew over Farmington, New Mexico in broad daylight;

    the famous flyover of Washington D.C. on successive weekends in July of 1952;

    the “Night of the UFOs” in Brazil in 1986; and

    the “Phoenix Lights” in 1997.

    ……….Better to have disclosure on our terms rather than a sudden event that might cause panic.

    Disclosure is only a matter of time.

    Foreign nations and civilian scientific groups around the world are undertaking ever more sophisticated and extensive UAP collection campaigns. ………..

    Congress is proceeding.
    …………

    Secrecy stifles science.
    ………….

    Time to reduce international tensions.

    ……….. To the degree the U.S. has these materials and our rivals do not, this could provide new and unprecedented leverage for the U.S. Our adversaries will naturally fear unilateral advances on the part of the U.S. that render their defenses and technology obsolete. Adversaries are undeterred if they are ignorant of their opponents’ military capabilities. Better they know. And if any of these countries have also recovered off-world technology, all the more reason to make the most of what we have rather than risk being overtaken in research, development and deployment. ……….

    No imminent threat.

    It seems unlikely that revealing the truth would change the pattern of UAP behavior we have been observing for many decades. Furtive activities around the planet and in our oceans are likely to continue. …………

    Spark vitally needed collaboration.

    I cannot think of anything more likely to shock humanity out of its present complacence than the revelation we are not alone. …………..
    …………….

    Some paragraph breaks added.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  107. I’ve gone through periods of my life where I was a daily user of marijuana and periods of my life where I have used weekly and periods of my life where I haven’t used at all.

    Right now I’m less than weekly but more than not at all, but as recently as a month ago I was using daily. (things change; my mental health shifted dramatically a few weeks ago).

    For me, there are basically two modes:

    * it’s fun to do certain things while high
    * getting stoned allows me to dissociate enough to be able to both feel strong emotion *and* think analytically about the emotion

    most of the time i’ve been a daily user, it’s been because i’m using it as an emotional processing tool while going through tough shit — it helps break me out of my trauma response by giving me the space to feel and think simultaneously, which i can’t do when i’m flooded and sober.

    Robert D West (d99b29)

  108. I’ve gone through periods of my life where I was a daily user of marijuana and periods of my life where I have used weekly and periods of my life where I haven’t used at all.

    Right now I’m less than weekly but more than not at all, but as recently as a month ago I was using daily. (things change; my mental health shifted dramatically a few weeks ago).

    For me, there are basically two modes:

    * it’s fun to do certain things while high
    * getting stoned allows me to dissociate enough to be able to both feel strong emotion *and* think analytically about the emotion

    most of the time i’ve been a daily user, it’s been because i’m using it as an emotional processing tool while going through tough shit — it helps break me out of my trauma response by giving me the space to feel and think simultaneously, which i can’t do when i’m flooded and sober.

    aphrael (d99b29)

  109. admins — i double submitted that last comment because the first time through my password manager (which autofills forms on web pages) pasted in my *real name* and then it got trapped in moderation.

    please disregard the first one!

    aphrael (d99b29)

  110. although now it looks like the second one got nabbed by moderation, too.

    aphrael (d99b29)

  111. “why Oswald was ready with the rifle at the right time. He was a perfect patsy”

    The route was published in the paper. People talk about it. He knew that the limousine would come straight past the TSBD following a very slow-speed turn from Houston onto Elm street. When he came to visit Marina in Irving, the gun was stored in the garage there. Following the assassination when police came to the Paine House, they asked Marina if there was a rifle there. She took them to the garage and, to her shock, it was gone. Lee Harvey had grabbed it the night of Nov 21st, disassembled it, and packed it in paper. His ride the next morning (he did not drive), Buell Wesley Frazier, asked about it. Oswald said it was curtain rods. No curtain rods were found at the TSBD. Oswald had access to the 6th floor of the TSBD. His finger prints were found on the boxes that he used to create a sniper’s nest. His prints were also on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found along with the empty paper bag on the 6th floor.

    The JFK kill shot was from about 270ft, so with a 4x scope, it was not a difficult shot for someone who twice qualified as a marksman in the Marines. He was a perfect patsy except for the fact that all his actions on and before Nov 22, suggest he was guilty. Why was he the only employee to leave the TSBD? Why did he collect a handgun from his apartment? Why did he shoot a patrolman who questioned him? Why was he acting suspicious out front of a Hardy’s shoe store when the cops drove by? Why did he duck into a theater to get off the street? And why did he resist arrest in the theater if he was just a patsy? Why did he leave his belongings with his wife after she wouldn’t reunite with him? If there were other accomplices, where is the evidence of a second shooter? Where is evidence of wounds caused from a second direction?

    What we know is that conspiracies collapse. People talk. They keep incriminating evidence. There’s always financial gain that motivates people (ok, Jimmy Hoffa excluded). Oswald had lied and deceived on several matters, including his second ID under the name of Alek Hidell (hello Fidel). Claiming he was a “patsy” was just another lie. Once he was overwhelmed with the evidence, he likely would have fessed up….and saved a lot of ink in the process.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  112. aphrael,

    Deleted first, released second.

    Dana (312cc2)

  113. https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1669705153316880385

    The ACLU has truly jumped the shark and continues to spit on their history.

    What they are now is nothing more than an evil tyrant wearing the skinsuit of a formerly great organization.

    NJRob (b4531a)

  114. @90 capitalism has never been done right. Adam smith in wealth of nation explained it to people with your view of capitalism. “I never went into a room of capitalists where they did not conspire to fix prices! He could of added and buy politicians. As I have said many times here I support NON-exploitive capitalism/social welfare state not socialism where the government owns the means of production. I own my business since 1982 and in fact a capitalist wage slave master ;but don’t have any capitalist wage slaves just partners from time to time until they wreck their cars and can’t get commercial insurance. Unlike most philosphers I live and practice my philosophy.

    asset (663e4e)

  115. @112 You mean like when trump was arresting muslim children at airports and young women aclu lawyers were sitting on the floor of airports with their computers filing habeas corpus briefs with federal courts? With hand written signs ACLU help here.

    asset (663e4e)

  116. I’m Shocked!:

    ……………
    In a Saturday interview with Newsmax, Giuliani claimed that the whistleblower that informed him of the Bidens’ alleged scheme had died.

    “I did tell them three years ago, and they followed up on none of the evidence I gave them,” Giuliani said.

    Former Attorney General Bill Barr, however, rebutted that claim in The Federalist last week, saying that the inquiry was “sent to Delaware for further investigation.”

    Barr’s autobiography suggests that Giuliani could be the person who submitted the FBI form.………..

    “They were hoping that the people would just disappear or die,” Giuliani alleged. “It’s extraordinary. I gave them one witness that any investigator would jump through hoops to get to. Gave them a witness who was a woman, she was the chief accountant at this crooked company Burisma. She was the wife of the former owner, who died under suspicious circumstances. And she was willing to give up all of the off-shore bank accounts. Including the Bidens.”

    The person Giuliani may be referring to is the wife of Mykola Lisin, a co-founder of Ukrainian energy company Burisma………. The “suspicious circumstances” Giuliani alleged were a car accident.
    ………….
    When (Sean Hannity asked House Oversight Committee Chair Rep. James Comer on Thursday) if he had been in contact with the “high-ranking member or owner of Burisma,” Comer replied that he hadn’t.

    “Unfortunately, nobody’s had any contact with him for the last three years,” Comer said. “You know, the MSNBC makes fun of me when I said that there are a lot of people that were involved in the Biden shenanigans that are currently missing. But with respect to this oligarch, we think we know where he is. He just hasn’t been seen in public in a long time, but we’re following the money.”
    …………….

    Related:

    …………

    Ohio Republican Congressman Jim Jordan pointed out “we don’t know” if the tapes Republicans claim implicate President Joe Biden “exist” when he was asked about impeaching the president.
    ………….

    On a recent edition of The Chris Salcedo Show, Jordan pointedly brought up the uncertainty in the context of impeaching Biden over the tapes, telling host Chris Salcedo that “we don’t know for sure if these tapes exist”:

    CHRIS SALCEDO: ………. However, you folks in Congress have a different obligation to actually finding the truth. As we all know, Speaker McCarthy took impeachment of Joe Biden off the table, and that was before these revelations of these fd1023s that that alleged that Joe Biden has been selling out our nation for a payday from foreign nationals. Do you think that now impeachment is back on the table, as far as the speaker is concerned, because of these revelations and the seriousness of these allegations?

    REP. JIM JORDAN: Well, I do think that that that’s a decision for the entire conference. If if these allegations are you know, if the proof becomes so compelling that, you know, even the mainstream press, I think, would have to look at it. But we don’t know for sure if these tapes exist.If they do and they say what Senator Grassley has has said that that he thinks they’re going to, they’re going to say that I think that’s a different animal.But I do think that that impeachment is something we have to look at. But it’s a decision that the entire Congress has to make, the entire Republican conference has to make. ………..And so, look, if it’s warranted, we should do it, but we should first see if it’s warranted and then make a decision as a conference.

    .

    My emphasis. I like the way Jordan threw Grassley under the bus.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  117. Trump’s $2 stable of clapped-out streetwalkers.

    No, chippies, just because we believed it of Trump doesn’t mean we have to believe it of Biden. Biden is not Trump.

    nk (888d38)

  118. Not even Sheriff Buford T. Justus would hold out Giuliani as reliable informant. If Trump is a New York sewer rat, Giuliani is one of his intestinal parasites.

    nk (888d38)

  119. nk (888d38) — 6/17/2023 @ 3:30 pm

    It is so generous of you to use “If”, nk.

    norcal (8b5267)

  120. Trump Civil Litigation Watch II:

    ………..
    In a filing with the U.S. District Court of Southern Florida, Trusty indicated his intention to withdraw from Trump’s pending defamation lawsuit against CNN. The longshot lawsuit, which Trump filed last October, accuses the network of maligning him as a “‘racist,’ ‘Russian lackey,’ ‘insurrectionist,’ and ultimately ‘Hitler.’”

    “Mr. Trusty’s withdrawal is based upon irreconcilable differences between Counsel and Plaintiff and Counsel can no longer effectively and properly represent Plaintiff,” Trusty wrote in the filing, which he signed.
    ……………
    A Trump campaign spokesperson said: “The defamation lawsuit against CNN is entering a new phase, as more irrefutable facts are revealed. We thank Mr. Trusty for his work on this case and wish him all the best.”
    …………..

    Trusty has also resigned from representing Trump in the classified documents as well as the January 6th investigations.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  121. Trusty had the cufflinks appraised, eh?

    nk (888d38)

  122. @Jim@105 My parents were super straight-edge in the 60s (I believe the term was “square” at the time. :P) and very anti-drug when I was growing up, but even they never really gave specifics of some of the actual problems with marijuana. Most them I discovered in various psych classes in college (and in a brain scans and neurology training in gradschool that was meant to be about ADHD).

    Nic (896fdf)

  123. All I know is, Bill Maher is a big fan of weed, and he’s one of the funniest and thoughtful people in the media.

    norcal (8b5267)

  124. Here is a fascinating article on what types of people are prone to believe in conspiracy theories:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-drawn-to-conspiracy-theories-share-a-cluster-of-psychological-features/

    I like this part:

    people who dislike the political party in power think more conspiratorially than those who support the controlling party

    That is so true, and both sides fall prey to it.

    Here is another incisive quote:

    Conspiracy theories are a human reaction to confusing times. “We’re all just trying to understand the world and what’s happening in it,” says Rob Brotherton, a psychologist at Barnard College and author of Suspicious Minds: Why We Believe in Conspiracy Theories (Bloomsbury Sigma, 2015).

    I’m convinced that my mother was attracted to the John Birch Society because it reduced a complex world into an easily-followed, villain-laden narrative. Trump does the same thing, so it’s no wonder that the Birch Society supports him.

    The left is no angel in this regard, either. Witness Hillary’s “vast, right-wing conspiracy”, and Biden’s “put you all back in chains”, “Jim Crow 2.0”, etc.

    norcal (8b5267)

  125. This year even our elementary schools reported kids vaping it in the bathrooms.

    Are they getting it from parents, from private dealers, or from storefronts?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  126. Is there anything that says the two are interested in running together, or is this an instance of 2024 election wishful thinking?

    Both are involved with “No Labels”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  127. Time to reduce international tensions.

    If extraterrestrials have visited our planet from vast (I cannot exaggerate how vast) distances, international tensions are the least of our worries. The capabilities of any star-faring race are as far beyond ours, as ours are to australopithecus.

    We had better hope they like us.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  128. Giuliani is one of his intestinal parasites.

    If Giuliani was on The Walking Dead, someone would shoot him.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  129. @111:

    A “patsy” is not necessarily an innocent. It could be just someone who takes the fall, hiding the mover(s) behind the scene. There were people who hated JFK with a passion, starting with LBJ, the mob, Hoover, and some within CIA. Various reasons, but not invading Cuba in ’62 was a big one.

    Maybe it was Oswald all alone, but the case has not been made and probably never will be. The Warren report is not the slam dunk that you seem to think it is.

    “No evidence” of a conspiracy is pretty much what happens when the patsy gets offed before he can talk.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  130. Of course, if it was a conspiracy, “the mob” (or foreign actors) would not get any help from the government in covering it up. Others might.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  131. On conspiracy theories and those who follow them, I am Christian in belief. Which means I believe in a creator. That isn’t such a big stretch. However, when we get to the virgin birth, resurrection, eternal life etc it takes a huge leap of faith. I’ve always felt that deeply religious people are most likely susceptible to being duped because if you can believe in a virgin birth, you can maybe be led to believe anything

    steveg (f57477)

  132. If Oswald had lived and gone to trial, much of the suspicion that people have would have been addressed. It’s either unfortunate or convenient, take your pick.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  133. @Kevin@125 For the elementary kids, mostly from their parents or from a friend who gets it from their parents as far as we can tell. For my jr. high students, mostly from their parents, but some have an online hookup from on of the localish high schools we think.

    Nic (896fdf)

  134. .(Hogan and Manchin) are involved with “No Labels”

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/17/2023 @ 6:20 pm

    As I said, 2024 election wishful thinking.

    Rip Murdock (af44a0)

  135. Trump cruises, DeSantis flatlines in polling even after bombshell indictment
    ……….
    Trump remains well ahead of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis — both nationally and in the states that will vote earliest in the nominating process — according to independent polling. The other candidates remain far behind those two.
    …………
    …………(T)here’s also no indication the federal charges Trump is facing in Florida are making Republican primary voters less likely to say they want him to be the party’s 2024 nominee.
    …………
    Trump leads DeSantis, his closest competitor, by at least 30 points in the three national polls conducted mostly or entirely after the news of the federal indictment broke. And he’s narrowly above 50 percent in each of the surveys, from The Messenger/HarrisX (53 percent), Quinnipiac University (53 percent) and The Economist/YouGov (51 percent).
    …………
    DeSantis’ 9-point drop over the past two-and-a-half months is also evidence that the Florida governor hasn’t seen much improvement since the late-May launch of his campaign. ……….
    …………
    Scott, who kicked off his campaign the same week as DeSantis, has seen an uptick in his polling. He’s averaged around 4 percent in national polls since his launch, and he hit 7 percent in an American Greatness poll in New Hampshire this week.
    …………
    Christie, who launched his campaign last week at a town hall just outside Manchester, is banking on a strong showing in the first-in-the-nation primary state. And two polls this week had him in third or tied for third……..
    …………….

    Links to individual polls in article.

    Rip Murdock (af44a0)

  136. Who’s “we,” kemosabe? Us. America. The citizens. The hard working stiffs who expect government to have their backs, and not as a knife-receptacle.

    Does that imply that those of us who disagree aren’t also hard working American stiffs who expect government to have our backs?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  137. For the elementary kids, mostly from their parents

    IF the school got into the habit of filing charges against the parents that might stop.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  138. Does that imply that those of us who disagree aren’t also hard working American stiffs who expect government to have our backs?

    No, and you are intentionally hiding the goalposts here.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  139. The insistence that we pick Team R or Team D, of else the wrong side will win (go back and read @63 for my referent) is what keeps us from moving past these two toxic parties.

    As is stands, the GOP is dead while Trump lives, and the Democrats are dead forever. There is a vast gap between them and demanding that people pick one or the other for fear of “wasting one’s vote” is at best ironic.

    I don’t happen to believe the fastest or most effective way past these two toxic parties is to enable the worse of them to take back the White House. Maybe that’s just me. (It isn’t.) But where did I insist anything? Where did I demand? Did I blame you for the parade of horribles I might argue could follow your choice? No, I simply expressed my opinion, one shared by tens of millions Americans, our host included, that the greatest danger facing the country is the re-acquisition of power by someone who tried to overthrow our last presidential election. You have different priorities? That’s your right. Is it necessary to mischaracterize mine?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  140. I don’t get it lurker. What part of “I don’t want to pick from two sh1tty choices” don’t you get. Sure one of them is a triple sh1t sandwich and the other one just a single. But I am hoping for at least bologna.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  141. No, and you are intentionally hiding the goalposts here.

    Really? Do tell. I love having my mind read.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  142. What part of “I don’t want to pick from two sh1tty choices” don’t you get.

    Which part of “you’re entitled to your choice with which I disagree” don’t you get?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  143. I mean, what is the problem with telling both parties “try better next time”? Because they really need to. If it’s another 50-47-3 election with these two fools, you could convince a lot of people that elections are for fools.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  144. Choices have consequences. You think the consequences of my choice will more harmful than the consequences of yours. Obviously I disagree. I think history will show the expectations that inform my choice to have been more accurate than the expectations that inform yours. Obviously you disagree. The bottom line is neither of us has a crystal ball. All we can do is make the most reasoned, informed choices possible on the information available. That’s what I’m trying to do. Is that what you’re trying to do? If so, why does either of us have to be wrong for holding our opinions?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  145. Even if I concede for arguments’ sake that Trump is marginally less awful on policy, there are countless ways he’s infinitely worse on character

    That may be but Biden’s massive character defects only seem OK because they’ve been normalized. In short, Biden wants to lead organized government theft to take from the productive and give to the unproductive. And he is willing to be incredibly destructive of the economy to do that.

    IMO that’s a worse conflation than what you criticized AllahNick for. You don’t like Biden’s economic policies? Neither do I. That’s a policy difference. You want to say it’s an important issue with potentially lasting deleterious consequences? That’s fine too. But suggesting that Biden’s disagreement with us is a character defect, much less one even worthy of mention in the same breath as Trump’s pathologically disordered moral universe is silly. Both halves of the country believe the policies preferred, advocated, and implemented by the other half are objectionable and destructive. By your reasoning that would make all of us morally defective. Or none of us. What’s the difference? At that point it’s all semantic. But you know that’s not true. Some people, e.g., Trump, are truly, deeply morally broken. Most of the rest, Biden included (until proven otherwise by actual non-imaginary evidence), aren’t.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  146. I lose no matter which of those assh0les win. I haven’t voted for a major party since 2012 and if this continues I won’t vote this time at all. It’s that bad.

    To my mind, you suggest surrender and collaboration. Himmler or Trotsky, gotta choose! No, I don’t.

    What really frosts me is that there are so-called patriots who insist that there not be another choice. I’d say more, but it would end up in moderation.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  147. Why are you afraid of a free election, lurker?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  148. Which part of “you’re entitled to your choice with which I disagree” don’t you get?

    No, you don’t say that. You agitate for me not having that choice.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  149. be another choice

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/17/2023 @ 8:37 pm

    Don’t make me trot out that Milton Friedman quote about it not being a case of electing the “right” person.

    The problem is the people. Not the parties. Not the choices.

    norcal (8b5267)

  150. In other words, it’s the people who whittle it down to a choice between a single sh*t sandwich and a triple sh*t sandwich.

    Look at the last presidential election with no incumbent–2016. Peruse all of the primary candidates on both sides. I guarantee you could have found a nice matchup between two rational people for the general election.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

    norcal (8b5267)

  151. “Maybe it was Oswald all alone, but the case has not been made and probably never will be.”

    “The case” fundamentally is about probability. There is no way to prove a negative. It’s what the explanation is most probable. The reality is that the JFK murder is easily the most studied murder in modern history. Claims that range from the absurd…surgeons modifying JFK’s head wound to make it look like the bullet entered from the rear….to the bizarre…like an accidental discharge from the secret service follow car have been set forth so people can make money and, frankly, seed ignorance.

    The problem is that conspiracy-pushers really don’t have to prove anything themselves…just pile speculation on speculation, distort some facts, leave out inconvenient truths, and cry motive motive motive. Then cash their checks all the while blaming the deep state for their lack of evidence. Hmmm, sounds like a modern day grifter we all know.

    Two authors tried their best to analyze the best of the conspiracies: Gerald Posner in the 90’s and Vincent Bugliosi around 2007. They separately looked at the best available evidence to see whether any of it pointed with concerning probability at the mob, the CIA, the Russians, the Cubans, the FBI, LBJ, or aliens.

    Neither came away seeing a significant probability of conspiracy. First, after multiple decades, there is no strong evidence that Oswald had any sort of relationship with any of these groups. Again, this is after decades of probing, with conspiracy theorists incentivized to find and unmask it.

    Second, it strains credulity to suggest that the mob, the CIA, or the Russians would choose….of all people…an unstable individual like Oswald to front their conspiracy…and then bookend it with another loser in Ruby. With his $12 rifle and his failed suicide attempt in Russia, we are to believe that Lee Oswald was their man. And the conspirators are so good on one hand erasing all of their ties….but sloppy in not spiriting Oswald away to Cuba post assassination or eliminating him before he had an opportunity to claim to be a patsy. Instead we are to believe that with $13 on his person, Oswald was on his own to use busses and cabs to escape. Some conspiracy.

    Further, the motorcade route wasn’t set until 4 days before the visit. Would such a sophisticated conspiracy leave all its planning to literally the last moment? Maybe in the movies. In the biggest conspiracies, someone always talks. Lincoln was assassinated due to conspiracy. There was no hiding it. Nixon was knee-deep in the Watergate conspiracy. It came out. The incentives for breaking silence are too great…especially after time…to pretend no one would ever talk. Silence here might just be because no one has anything to reveal. Case closed.

    AJ_Liberty (e45283)

  152. Well-stated, AJ. I agree.

    norcal (8b5267)

  153. Why are you afraid of a free election, lurker?

    I’m not. Why do you make stuff up I never said?

    Which part of “you’re entitled to your choice with which I disagree” don’t you get?

    No, you don’t say that. You agitate for me not having that choice.

    OK, that’s enough mischaracterization of my comments for one day. I’m out.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  154. @127 when they land on the white house footsteps let me know.

    asset (558dee)

  155. @146 I hear this crap in the democrat party. You must vote for what ever crap the democrat party establishment throws on the wall and sees if it sticks! On election night 2016 rachel madcow chris the molester mathews if you vote third party you don’t care who wins. I cared greatly that hillary clinton didn’t win. so I voted for jill stein. The night sanders won the 2016 michigan primary madcow kept saying ;but clinton won the democratic mississippi primary! Biden knows the left views him with contempt so he tries to appease the left while the donor class clutch their pearls. Biden tells the donors you got the money ;but AOC and the left have 30% of the party vote with another half of the minority vote ambivalent about biden. Biden won the electoral collage by 43,000 votes in az, ga. and wi.

    asset (558dee)

  156. Most of the rest, Biden included (until proven otherwise by actual non-imaginary evidence), aren’t [truly, deeply morally broken.]

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QKVPkXYnXsI

    BuDuh (eba123)

  157. You may not think it, but I’d say Rob and I agree more than disagree on issues, such as the ACLU’s weird focus on a ped0phile rapist murderer’s gender identity than on the fact that he’s a ped0phile rapist murderer who earned his death sentence under Florida law.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  158. Regarding the Rogan-RFK, Jr. disinformation podcast, here’s a partial scuttling of RFK, Jr.’s comments, and Vice weighs in with more. Lastly, Dr. Gorski had some link-filled comments right after RFK, Jr. announced his run for prez.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  159. Mr. O’Brien has a good summary on how the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been going. To boil it down: Fits and starts, but they’re slowly reclaiming conquered territory, and they’re putting their missiles to good use, hitting ammo depots and bases.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  160. Now, this is wishful thinking, but I’m starting to think this could be the empty elliptical expanse between, not the horseshoe itself.

    HAPPY FATHERS DAY

    urbanleftbehind (d3ef16)

  161. Lincoln was assassinated due to conspiracy. There was no hiding it.

    Yes, but they may have hidden its extent. Booth’s act was counterproductive in the end, since Lincoln could have tempered Stanton’s Reconstruction in a way that Johnson was too weak to accomplish.

    My distrust of the Warren Report is over 50 years old and I doubt I will be reconsidering it at this point. Did you know that the CBS and NBC news reports of November 22nd were recorded and those recordings are available? It was a day of whipsaw news reports and watching the 8 hours that followed the shooting might give a younger person some insight into the national trauma of that day.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  162. Lurker: But back on Planet Earth I have to agree with AllahNick. The risk of a 3d party bid backing Trump into the White House is too high.

    Lurker: Which part of “you’re entitled to your choice with which I disagree” don’t you get?

    Me: No, you don’t say that. You agitate for me not having that choice.

    Lurker: OK, that’s enough mischaracterization of my comments for one day. I’m out.

    I don’t see it as a mischaracterization, just as I don’t see it as a mischaracterization of Allahnick (who backhandedly approves of using lawfare to suppress ballot access for a centrist alternative).

    Will you unequivocally say that you don’t approve of ballot-access suppression?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  163. As for a 3rd party putting Trump in the WH, it depends on whether No Labels leans Left or Right. A losing Hogan/Manchin candidacy could go either way. A Sinema/Kasich ticket could elect Trump. A Ryan/Manchin ticket could elect Biden.

    But assuming that it cannot succeed is an ahistorical assumption. Both non-fringe candidacies in the 20th century (Perot and Teddy) had considerable support, but elected Democrats. Teddy came in second. Perot got 19% after practically throwing the election.

    To talk about how fringe candidates only steal votes isn’t even germane.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  164. Second, it strains credulity to suggest that the mob, the CIA, or the Russians would choose….of all people…an unstable individual like Oswald to front their conspiracy…….

    I have both Poster’s and Bugliosi‘s books, and I would say I agree with them. That said, an unstable individual like Oswald would be the perfect patsy.

    When I was commuting work to the Pentagon when JFK came out, you wouldn’t believe the conversations I overheard believing the film to be a documentary.

    Pop culture quiz: What does the JFK and Seinfeld have in common?

    Wayne Knight was in both. He played Numa Bertel in JFK, an assistant to Jim Garrison; and in Seinfeld he played Newman. He was also involved in recreations of the assassination; in Seinfeld it was parodied as the spitting incident involving Keith Hernandez.

    Rip Murdock (fb5489)

  165. Isn’t No Labels the group willing to use lawsuits to get Manchin on the ballot? Nick doesn’t seem impressed with that. Why do you describe him as “backhanded approves of using lawfare to suppress ballot access for a centrist alternative?”

    We can’t stop people from going to court. Or are saying we should?

    DRJ (fd3827)

  166. Why do you describe him as “backhanded approves of using lawfare to suppress ballot access for a centrist alternative?”

    Because he speaks at length about efforts by Democrats to keep No Labels off state ballots without condemning ballot access suppression, all the while talking about how terrible the No Labels idea is.

    No Labels is going to turn an election that should be a referendum on Trump’s fitness among undecided voters into a choice. Jittery Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans are already wargaming ways to try to stop them, including filing lawsuits to try to have them thrown off the ballot in swing states.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  167. Isn’t No Labels the group willing to use lawsuits to get Manchin on the ballot?

    If you look at the history of ballot-access, it always takes lawsuits becuase th major parties always put unconstitutional roadblocks in state laws. At times, they do the same thing again, after having it struck down.

    Richard Winger has been publishing Ballot-Access News for at least 30 years, and it is really the same story over and over.

    Either signature requirements are very high, or signature gathering time is too low, or petition rules are prohibitive (e.g. signer must put social security number on petition), or petitions are simply rejected for the slightest (and curable) defect. Federal courts repeatedly slap down state ballot-access restrictions but the cost to third parties is ruinous (even if they are not the plaintiff, as here).

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  168. In NH, where No Labels has qualified, the state’s SoS has sent a letter to all petition signers asking them to confirm they were not “tricked” into signing. Since a sizable number of recipients will not respond, this could be used to kick them off the ballot.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  169. Happy Father’s day, Gents!

    Dustin (a40ec0)

  170. (Hogan and Manchin) are involved with “No Labels”

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/17/2023 @ 6:20 pm

    What is their platform? Do they favor continued support for Ukraine? What is their position on defending Taiwan? Do they favor restrictionist policies on immigration? What is their position on Trump’s indictment? What policies do they propose for supporting increasing American industry? Do they favor restricting foreign investment in the US?

    What is their position regarding LGBTQ+ persons? Should adults as well as children be prohibited from receiving trans surgeries? What is their position regarding the morality of abortion?

    Do they favor repealing the National Firearms Act and Gun Control Act of 1968, returning authority to regulate firearms to the states? Do they favor the same regarding national environmental laws?

    With Manchin on the ticket, they are probably opposed to restricting fossil fuels. Do the favor subsidies for electric vehicles?

    Will they:

    •lift restrictions on mineral exploration in national parks and forests?

    •override states that ban offshore oil exploration?

    •override states that have stricter environmental regulations/mandates (for example, electric vehicle mandates)?

    Rip Murdock (af44a0)

  171. @171, They won’t
    * oddly yell out God save the queen
    * incite an insurrection
    * do Executive Orders that are Constitutionally defective
    * commit federal crimes
    * abandon civilians in Afghanistan
    * extort Ukraine for political gain

    Everything else….I expect them to be midde of the road and legislate only on matters where there is broad appeal. I don’t see this as a permanent party but a time-out for the other two.

    AJ_Liberty (e45283)

  172. AJ_Liberty (e45283) — 6/18/2023 @ 12:10 pm

    I would rather know what a presidential candidate believes and intends to do before I vote for them, not what they won’t do.

    Of course, a No Labels president wouldn’t have a political base in Congress to do anything.

    Donald Trump, though, will have a political base in Congress to conduct his retribution.

    Rip Murdock (fb5489)

  173. Which presidents are most responsible for our debt problem? Glenn Kessler has an excellent discussion.

    Beginning with this conclusion:

    Which president has contributed the most to the nation’s long-term fiscal imbalance? That would be Lyndon B. Johnson, according to a 2021 study by Charles Blahous, a former economic adviser to George W. Bush and a public trustee for Social Security and Medicare from 2010 through 2015. Through an exhaustive study of Congressional Budget Office and Office of Management and Budget reports, Blahous estimated LBJ’s share of the fiscal imbalance is 29.7 percent. Close behind is Richard M. Nixon, with 29.2 percent.

    Johnson enacted Medicare and Medicaid in the mid-1960s, and then Nixon in the early 1970s expanded both programs and also enhanced Social Security so that benefits were indexed to inflation. Social Security and Medicare are now so popular that both Biden and Republicans have pledged not to touch them as they haggle over other types of government spending.

    That popularity explains why American politicians are unwilling to speak candidly about the Social/Security problem, much less find solutions. (As someone receiving both, I often feel I should apologize to young folks.)

    (One thing I owuld give more attention to than Kessler does: demographics. We would be in much better shape fiscally, long term, were our population was still growing as it was in, for example, 1965.)

    Jim Miller (19069b)

  174. AJ_Liberty (e45283) — 6/18/2023 @ 12:10 pm

    I don’t have your faith in this desperation move.

    Rip Murdock (af44a0)

  175. correction: “Social Security/Medicare problem”.

    Jim Miller (19069b)

  176. “That said, an unstable individual like Oswald would be the perfect patsy.”

    Well, everything about Nov 22 suggests Oswald did the shooting. Now, we have to ask, is there anything that suggests that he was helped?

    Was there a cash payment? Was there evidence of planning beyond Oswald’s means or capabilities? Was Oswald killed before he could be captured? Was Oswald’s capture delayed because of confederate interference or accelerated due to an anonymous tip? Was there evidence that someone was behind his assassination attempt on General Edwin Walker earlier in April of that year? Was there evidence that Oswald was willing to strike a deal and name names…or was his “I’m just a patsy” more lies about his involvement? Can we find any confederates that helped Oswald defect to Russia, try to defect to Cuba from Mexico City, that aided him in getting his guns, that urged him to start his Fair Play for Cuba chapter, or surreptitiously got him his job at the TSBD? The lack of nefarious starts to suggest a much simpler explanation.

    No one can rule out clandestine meetings or promises of payments (passage to Cuba) that were not made. It’s just that you can tell a coherent story perfectly well without adding them….and Occam’s Razor argues to throw away exogenous over-complicating details. Our brains want complexity to explain the gravity of the event. A loser nobody scoring a couple of lucky shots just doesn’t soothe our exercised amygdala. Fortunately we have our own modern day conspiracies of vote fraud, DoJ corruption, and FBI politicization to work out.

    AJ_Liberty (e45283)

  177. I’m not on board with No Labels yet. However, if my other two options are bad, then beggars can’t be choosers. There is a good chance that Biden dies and gives us President Kamala Harris….someone I view as not especially qualified. There is little from a Biden/Harris administration that I would likely agree with policy wise. So I don’t follow your exercise Rip. Hogan/Manchin might not be as conservative as Trump, but it is relevant that they won’t tear apart our system, raining down retribution. Check. They will likely be far more conservative than a President Harris administration. Check. We can’t have Hogan because Biden is more preferable? You’re goin to have to flush that one out for me.

    AJ_Liberty (e45283)

  178. June Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll:

    <blockquote………..
    • 58% of Americans think the case against Trump is strong, including 85% of Democrats, 60% of Independents, and 30% of Republicans.

    • Voters are split 51-49, down party lines, on whether Trump's indictment is reason to withdraw from the 2024 race.

    • If Trump is convicted, 53% of voters – driven by 80% of Republicans – support pardoning him in the interest of national unity.
    ………..
    • Even after the indictment, 59% of Republicans would choose Trump in a GOP primary and he would beat Biden in a general election 45-39 (one point closer than last month).

    • Biden has strengthened his position with 62% support among Democratic voters in a primary – but Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is in second at 15% and his personal favorability rating is 21 points above water.
    ………….
    • 74% of parents with school-aged children, including majorities of all parties, think schools are respecting their rights as parents.
    …………

    Poll results.

    Trump’s 6-point advantage over Biden is a real outlier in the RCP polling average (Trump +1.8 , including this poll).

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  179. AJ_Liberty (e45283) — 6/18/2023 @ 12:54 pm

    There is a third option (which at the rate things are going I intend to exercise): don’t vote for either candidate. In fact I haven’t voted for President for several elections as I haven’t been impressed by any candidate.

    Larry Hogan has said he won’t be running for President. I take him at his word. He also has a corruption problem while he was governor (par for the course in Maryland politics.)

    Unless No Labels gets on 50 state ballots, it will only skew the results in the few battleground states and throw the election to Trump, and supporters will get the results they are trying to avoid.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  180. Rip Murdock (eb1bd8) — 6/18/2023 @ 1:01 pm

    More from the Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll:

    ………….
    Fifty-nine percent of Republican voters said that if the GOP primary were held today, they would vote for Trump, while 14 percent said the same about Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. Eight percent of GOP voters said they would vote for former Vice President Pence, and four percent said they would back former UN Ambassador Nikki Haley.

    The poll was conducted just under a week after the former president announced he had been indicted on federal charges.

    “The indictment of former President Trump has had no impact on his support in the GOP primary as Ron DeSantis has even more ground to make up with the entry of so many new candidates,” said Mark Penn, the co-director of the Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll survey.
    …………

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  181. There is a good chance that Biden dies and gives us President Kamala Harris….someone I view as not especially qualified.

    Biden will not be the nominee; he will either withdraw during the primary campaign, die (the Nikki Haley option), or be impeached (though that appears to be less likely at this stage), in which case there will be a free for all for the nomination. My bet is that Gavin Newsom will be drafted by the convention to run instead of Harris.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  182. “it will only skew the results in the few battleground states and throw the election to Trump”

    60% of voters don’t want a rematch of Trump v. Biden. Over 40% of the electorate now identifies as independent. The potential is that this gives moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats someone to actually vote for, instead of encouraging more non-voting and cynicism. If we keep doing the same sad, pathetic things, should we suddenly expect different results? How about a wakeup call for both parties?

    Hogan left office with 81% approval among Democrats and 68% approval among Republicans. That doesn’t sound like someone weighed down by corruption. He did announce that he would not run for President in the GOP primary. I don’t know if that rules out a run with No Labels. I would not think a Manchin led ticket would be as appealing.

    Now would No Labels throw the election to Trump? Maybe, but that presumes it would pull more from Democrats. I’m not convinced that’s true yet. I’m also not convinced that Biden can deliver a solid win with no competitive 3rd party. He’s stuck with Harris and he’s not going to look better on the campaign trail….especially if he keeps doing weird stuff.

    Polling is important but candidates also have to be inspirational. We have an inspiration deficit right now. Why not give a third voice a chance?

    AJ_Liberty (e45283)

  183. It seems the only tangible difference in R primary polling is the third place candate above 5% fairly or unfairly blamed for cutting into the DeSantis total

    urbanleftbehind (d3ef16)

  184. I would vote again for Larry Hogan, no matter the party, if my party nominates Trump.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  185. If your party nominates Hogan, won’t your state make you vote ceremonial at best, Paul?

    BuDuh (eba123)

  186. Now would No Labels throw the election to Trump? Maybe, but that presumes it would pull more from Democrats. I’m not convinced that’s true yet.

    It certainly won’t pull any votes away from Donald Trump.

    Why are Hogan or Manchin the only choices for No Labels? Why not RFK, Jr. ? He can always change what party he’s running in. In fact, running under the No Labels banner would allow him to avoid the primaries altogether.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  187. That doesn’t sound like someone weighed down by corruption.

    Obviously you didn’t click the link.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  188. (Biden’s) stuck with Harris and he’s not going to look better on the campaign trail….especially if he keeps doing weird stuff.

    As I’ve said, I don’t think Biden will be the Democratic nominee (not that I care who is.)

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  189. Polling is important but candidates also have to be inspirational. We have an inspiration deficit right now. ……..

    AJ_Liberty (e45283) — 6/18/2023 @ 1:50 pm

    Not much into injecting “feelings” into a political campaign-one reason I don’t like Scott. I don’t need to be “inspired”, I need to find a candidate who has positions I agree with.

    Right now the overriding goal should be to prevent Trump from be re-elected, and splitting his opposition (both Republicans and Democrats)-is not the way to do it.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  190. If your party nominates Hogan, won’t your state make you vote ceremonial at best, Paul?

    Since my party is Republican and I’m in WA State, my vote has been ceremonial since 2004, which is the last time a Republican lost by less than double digits. The last time a Republican actually won was Reagan, 1984.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  191. If the opportunity to defeat Donald Trump isn’t inspiration enough, I don’t know what is.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  192. No Labels or something similar needs different candidates for president in different states, picked so their candidate polls no worse than second in most individual states, and one candidate for vice president who can finance the campaign. Probably Burgum. (The Senate picks only from the top two)

    That will change the dynamic.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  193. The only shooter was Oswald but the Warren Commission got the chronology badly wrong. They identified two shots and said a third shot might have been fired in between. In reality, the first shot totally missed and was fired about five seconds before the single bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally. That was the conclusion of a book I read, but now today I found out that Zapruder may have started his second round of filming – at frame 133- after the first shot had been fired I don’t knoe why that was not in the book.

    Oswald obviously thought either

    A) He would get back into the good graces of the Soviet Union if he killed Kennedy or

    B) was lied to by somebody else who passed on a false secret message that he came from the “Red Cross” as Oswald called the KGB – and that they actually wanted him to do so.

    No need for money. Oswald planned to flee to Mexico.

    If there was a conspiracy, Oswald would have been a last ditch effort to salvage the conspiracy after the original assassin(s) had backed out. Also, it could only have been done by somebody who picked the parade route. This points to Eugene Locke, a Dallas lawyer in the oil business who could have known George de Mohrenschildt. Eugene Locke, was Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Texas Democratic Party, and was a close friend of Connally, who had persuaded himm to resign as Secretary of the Navy and run for Governor.

    Re; picking the parade route: That’s another thing the Warren Commission got wrong. See footnote 1 on page 25 of William Manchester’s “The Death of a President”

    Locke didn’t tell either LBJ or Connally but he did get LBJ to argue vigorously for Connally to sit in a different car than Kennedy. (actually fir=or Yarborough to sit with Kennedy) LBJ gave up because he knew nothing.

    Locke had been instrumental in stealing Texas for the Democratic ticket in 1960 and boasted so much of his connection to LBJ that he became known as Lyndon Jr.

    Oswald was shot two days after his arrest which is not the way organized crime does things when they want to shut someone up. They were relying on a lawyer, a former New York State Assemblyman named Mark Lane, to do that for them. After Oswald was killed, Mark Lane did not want to give up the gig. Besides, if Oswald talked, all he could say was that the KGB wanted him to do that, which is what Oswald thought, if there was a conspiracy.

    But Jack Ruby was connected with the mob – long term and he said he was sent to Dallas from Chicago. He shot Oswald on his own initiative.

    Only someone mobbed up like Ruby could have shot Oswald because he was used to breaking the law and other people were not. He was wearing a Mafia hat, with its black halo. Immediately after that, Mob people stopped wearing that kind of hat. I think Jack Ruby did it because he was afraid they would not carry out the death penalty. He himself said it was to prevent Jackie fromm having to go back to Dallas for thre trial.

    THe best evidence for a conspiracy is the enormous number of false conspiracy theories, virtually all of them involving an innocent Oswald and some other shooter(s) than Oswald. The same sort of thing happened with HArding.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  194. So many talk radio people are getting things all wrong with the Biden recordings, which nobody has.

    Giuliani brought some allegation against Biden in 2020 and it was reviewed by the U.S> Attorney in Pittsburg and they noticed an throw- away line from 2017 and they re-interviewed this source and that’s when they heard about the supposed recordings.

    In the meantime there are whistleblowers about the IRS investigation into Hunter Biden’s taxes and the whole 12 member group was replaced a few weeks ago. (I suppose because of the controversy – but this hanges the focus of the investigation fromm tax evasion to interference with an investigation.)

    https://nypost.com/2023/06/11/biden-laughs-off-fbi-bribery-claims-as-evidence-against-him-and-hunter-mounts

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  195. People who don’t let a crisis go to waste, don’t look a gift gift horse in the mouth either. Maybe there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK and maybe there was not, but they had power to consolidate and policies to advance , and they weren’t going to be side-tracked looking for it, when they had a dead Oswald and a dead Ruby to blame.

    If you absolutely, positively must have a conspiracy, look at the Warren Commission’s desperate scuttling not to find one.

    nk (e8e8bc)

  196. Roughly 17 months until the 2024 election. Come on, Father Time! Work your magic on these two incompetents. I believe in you!

    It’s too tricky trying to figure out who will pull more votes from whom if a third party is in play.

    norcal (8b5267)

  197. “Obviously you didn’t click the link.”

    I googled to learn more. Looks like it was Hogan’s former chief of staff who broke the law, went on the run, and died in a confrontation with authorities. It’s not a good pick by Hogan, but I’m not seeing that anyone says that he was complicit. You made it sounds like Hogan was under investigation.

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8)

  198. “Not much into injecting “feelings” into a political campaign-one reason I don’t like Scott. I don’t need to be “inspired”, I need to find a candidate who has positions I agree with.

    Right now the overriding goal should be to prevent Trump from be re-elected,”

    I hope you recognize that you pivoted going to your 2nd paragraph. Because if the overriding goal is for Trump not to win, then I assume that means positions are secondary. DeSantis is fine then. And if Trump wins the primary, then Biden is fine regardless of his positions, because the overriding goal is for Trump to lose.

    Inspiration is different than feelings. Reagan was both inspirational and substative. Inspirational can simply imply acting like a leader. Both Biden and Trump are unfit in my estimation, for different reasons. To me, this is a gross failure of our system. I still agree with you that I don’t think either Trump or Biden will emerge as the respective nominee. No Labels may become irrelevant, but having someone normal to vote for is good for the process. Would Hogan be perfect? Maybe not, but he’s a placeholder who is fit for the office. Right now….today….that’s appealing

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8)

  199. What is their platform?

    What is Trump’s?

    But really, since Hogan and Manchin are not necessarily the candidates (and maybe there won’t BE candidates, even though No Labels has frozen all other centrist efforts) who’s to say?

    Perot and TR had messages going in; No Labels has nothing but maybes (and a rather patronizing name). It’s really hard to get invested in a pocket full of maybes.

    I’m not a fan of Hogan/Manchin, No Labels, or the people running it (I expect to see the usual hacks). But I AM a fan of a centrist movement and if this is all there is, I’ll consider it.

    Other questions are: “What do you intend to do about Social Security and Medicare?”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  200. Of course, a No Labels president wouldn’t have a political base in Congress to do anything.

    An independent president whop stomped out both major parties in a groundswell of popular revolt? Those Congresspeople will be wanting to be liked pretty badly.

    Did you forget what happened to the GOP when Trump overturned their food trough? Why do you think they’d get a backbone now?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  201. Reagan pushed a tax cut (from 70% to 28%) through a Democrat House. Anything can be done with enough political clout.

    OF course, this also means that if Trump wins in a landslide, O, F!

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  202. AJ, I am interested in positions, but I am most interested in telling BOTH parties they really need to do better.

    I am certain that a Trump-Biden election will be pretty much a bust, with both of them failing pretty badly on policy, and both being failures in fitness.

    There is a chance that neither lives out the next year, of course. I would not buy life insurance on Trump as the hazards there are more than age and disease.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  203. https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/06/thousands-of-catholics-and-others-turn-out-to-protest-l-a-dodgers-honoring-of-lgbtq-nun-group/

    Glad to see a large turnout of the faithful protesting the anti-Christian bigotry that was endorsed and rewarded by the LA Dodgers. Hopefully the Dodgers attendance suffers for endorsing this vile, hateful organization.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  204. @202 and that accelerate our national debt which is a problem for republicans when democrats are in office. Republican: where are you going to get the money to feed and take care of children AOC? AOC: same place you got the money for bloated military spending and tax cuts for the rich!

    asset (7f28f5)

  205. asset (7f28f5) — 6/18/2023 @ 7:38 pm

    Asset, the Constitution says nothing about feeding and caring for children (because that’s not the government’s role). It does mention the military.

    norcal (8b5267)

  206. @166 democrats used ballot access laws put in place by republicans to keep libertarian party off the ballot (they failed libertarian party to big got on ballot in all 50 states ;but cost lib. party a lot of their funding to get ballot access) Green party smaller more vulnerable and democrats were able to remove them from ballot in 2020 in az. ga, mi, pa. and wi. Allowing biden to slide thru electoral collage. Some years ago the courts in indiana ruled in favor of libertarian party law suit that put rep. and dem. party on ballot ;but libertarian party needed 60,000 valid signatures from party members or independents to get on ballot court ruled dem. and rep. party would need to get 60,000 signatures too! Libertarian got 60,000 valid signatures. Democrat and republican party did noteven get 60,000 each and many of the fewer one they got were phony! Indiana supreme court put democrat party and republican party back on ballot anyway saying we have a two party system in this country don’t like it sue us we were put here by dems .and reps. This is what third parties are up against.

    asset (7f28f5)

  207. @206 it says promote the general welfare. It also say blacks are 3/5 of a person. Most democrats and many independents are not strict constructionists. Also when the supreme court has strict constructionists you get the dred scott decision and the civil war. It was only after dred scott decision that non violent abolitionists said well we better fund john brown now! Sharps rifles were never used in a better cause! Henry david thoreau essays on john brown. The father of non violence civil disobedience realized how you stop slavery and later hitler. Gandhi said he was willing to sacrifice “millions of indian lives to try and peacefully stop hitler. Not everyone in the “millions” were ready to go to the lime pits or shooting pits. C k chandra bose who supported the indian national liberation army and Jenna supported the military fight against hitler. Today most younger blacks side with Malcolm X views (by any means necessary) then dr. king. Most young blacks at the time wanted a Malcolm X day not a king day. As jfk said “those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolution inevitable.” Conservatives don’t like biden ;but you would like AOC and ilhan omar running the democrat party a lot less. What would happen to mark levine, sean hannity and murdoch if biden and the ny democrat establishment didn’t protect them from the left. Same with justices in D.C.?

    asset (7f28f5)

  208. “AJ, I am interested in positions, but I am most interested in telling BOTH parties they really need to do better.”

    The latter is kind of my thinking. Moreover, everyone likes positions, I’ll let nk finish that thought…perhaps with doggy-style in there somewhere. But Presidents also have to be the adult in the room…and understand what is and what is not possible.

    Following Carter’s malaise, Reagan had an opportunity to remake the tax system. The GOP never controlled the House but Reagan understood that he could get it done. He also understood he sat at a unique place with Gorbachev. And history tells the rest of the tale.

    A President has to work on comity. He’s the only one that can build bridges and call people to a higher purpose. He should be the conscience of the country. The bully pulpit should be used to make people want to behave better….not to bring out the worst in everyone. Biden just doesn’t have the energy or imagination to do it.

    A President is not Santa Claus. That’s not our system. Right now we need someone who understands that our dysfunction is making us smaller and smaller. We need wisdom.

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8)

  209. I should of added the government for the most part didn’t until the great depression when the communist party got over a million votes for president and people in kansas and Iowa were storing food for when the communists took over! In san francisco Mother jones (not the magazine) led the people past the military road block as she pushed the machine gun aimed at her a side saying my men made that and led them to the food warehouses. Otto von bismarck created the social welfare state to stop the incessant revolutions from killing the wealthy. The rich don’t like being stopped at the side of the road and executed. That is why we went to an all volunteer army after black draftees sat down on the runway because they would not be flown to detroit to shoot down their black brothers and sisters see: algeirs motel. Eventually the rich get greedy enough to not pay the soldiers enough to live on in more tax cuts for the rich.

    asset (7f28f5)

  210. It also say blacks are 3/5 of a person.

    Would you have preferred giving the slaveholders FULL representation for the people they’d enslaved? Folks like Franklin wanted them to get ZERO credit for slaves they held. 3/5ths was a grudging compromise and gave too much political power to the South, extending the life of Slavery.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  211. And if a conservative is considering voting for Biden, Biden’s platform is not really something they care about.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  212. it says promote the general welfare.

    That does not mean provide “welfare” any more than it means that General John Welfare should be promoted. It’s a very generic term. It could mean “keep taxes low” as that promotes the general welfare.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  213. The Biden platform that many people are voting for is “Not constant chaos.” People mostly just want to live their lives. Trump’s craziness interrupted their lives a lot. OTOH, most people hardly ever have to think about Biden.

    Nic (896fdf)

  214. >says nothing about feeding and caring for children (because that’s not the government’s role).

    Yes and no.

    It was pretty generally accepted in colonial times that there were cases in which this *was* the role of the colonial or state government, and that makes sense, because support for indigent women and children can be attested in parliamentay records at least as far back as elizabethan times.

    the framers didn’t envision it being the role of the *federal* government, it was the role of the states or the towns.

    aphrael (22499b)

  215. > Because if the overriding goal is for Trump not to win, then I assume that means positions are secondary. DeSantis is fine then. And if Trump wins the primary, then Biden is fine regardless of his positions, because the overriding goal is for Trump to lose.

    That’s sort of where I am. In an election between DeSantis and Trump, I vote DeSantis, hands down, no question. And I say this as a liberal gay man who lives in a household with multiple trans people.

    Trump is a clear and present danger to the existence of the Republic. DeSantis is a bad man who I deeply dislike who is a clear and present danger to people I love — but the danger to the Republic is far greater and more serious.

    aphrael (22499b)

  216. > Biden just doesn’t have the energy or imagination to do it.

    Biden is a boring center-left apparatchik at a time when the country needs an inspiring leader. I support him on policy but on *leadership* he’s totally failed.

    The problem in a lot of ways is that the post-Clinton Democrats haven’t really focused on growing *leaders*; in the places where they’re in control they’ve mostly been pushing apparatchiks. Harris is an apparatchik. (Newsom, for all his flaws, is a leader, he’s just not a very good one).

    Sometimes deeply flawed and troubled people develop into leaders; Churchill is the famous example in the anglosphere. But I don’t even see *that*. Fetterman, maybe, if he hadn’t had a stroke. Cheney tried but her people wouldn’t follow her. AOC is too young and has pissed off half the country anyway. I have a *lot* of hope for Frost but it’ll take him a decade to get there.

    The field is bleak.

    aphrael (22499b)

  217. @213 I thought you were a strict constructionist like most conservatives. Your “interpretation” Is different then mine and the majority in this country.

    asset (7f28f5)

  218. @215 The federal government stepped in in 1933 because state government and private charity were overwhelmed and feared a communist revolution that was already breaking into food warehouses to give food to the people. We had the bonus army riot where veterans were killed. Homeless were setting up hoovervilles. Hoover like most conservatives of today didn’t think it was the place of the federal government to intervene. I have other post on this tread explaining what was happening around the country also the movie grapes of wrath shows some of it. People were desperate and communists were ready to shoot the rich if FDR hadn’t been elected and saved capitalism. Conservatives always talk about not using violence when they control law enforcement/military to do violence for them.

    asset (7f28f5)

  219. I thought you were a strict constructionist like most conservatives.

    Yup. Whatever “general welfare” might mean, it was still “for ourselves and our posterity”. No Baracks, Alexandrias, Ilhans, Viveks, Chaos, Kamalas, or even Johnnie-come-lately John Fitzgeralds and Donald Johns, need apply.

    I confess, I am pleasantly surprised, asset.

    nk (325722)

  220. neither mr. former president donald trump, the only sitting president in the history of america who knew that the johnny cash song “ring of fire” was about gonorrhea, nor his supporters, have a monopoly on puerility when it comes to the constitution and laws

    puerility

    look it up

    nk (76ac72)

  221. “Yes and no” [how prophetic] – aphrael (22499b) — 6/18/2023 @ 11:48 pm

    I find your entire comment (not just the words I quoted) very persuasive, aphrael, because they echo the strong arguments of our beloved MD in Philly; a commenter who was a Physician with much experience in County hospitals and clinics.

    He gave us historical evidence that supported his opinion concerning the influence of Federal policies that lead to the decline of County providers of healthcare to indigents, which were funded primarily by local tax dollars, and the ascendancy of such care provided by City emergency rooms, as Federal regulations, backed by the carrot of Federal dollars, began to be adopted.

    Of course, now these city hospitals find themselves obliged to treat every single indigent who cannot /will not pay their bill, making the insured, and especially the employed uninsured, bear the shortfall – which arguably contributed to the breaking of our healthcare system.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  222. > Because if the overriding goal is for Trump not to win, then I assume that means positions are secondary. DeSantis is fine then. And if Trump wins the primary, then Biden is fine regardless of his positions, because the overriding goal is for Trump to lose.

    That’s sort of where I am. In an election between DeSantis and Trump, I vote DeSantis, hands down, no question. And I say this as a liberal gay man who lives in a household with multiple trans people. – aphrael (22499b) — 6/18/2023 @ 11:50 pm

    I find myself in complete agreement with your logical position. Unfortunately, your position is undermined, and all your persuasion (of those who would oppose your position) suffers at the hands of what comes next: [please not that I have edited your comment to prevent partisan “pouncing” in order make clear my Independent affiliation]

    [Name of hated person of the opposition] is a clear and present danger to the existence of the Republic. [ditto] is a bad man who I deeply dislike who is a clear and present danger to people I love — but the danger to the Republic is far greater and more serious. – aphrael (22499b) — 6/18/2023 @ 11:50 pm

    “Clear and present danger?” Such arguments [not you, dear aphrael!] are wild-eyed because of the hyperbole involved. Both sides routinely use this weak rhetoric. I reject it regardless of the side from which it is launched. It is a symptom of the deep polarization caused, in part, by the “othering’ of our brothers and sisters, and is a deep wound to the spirit of cooperation needed to advance “the common good.”

    felipe (8f56c3)

  223. I confess, I am pleasantly surprised, asset.
    nk (325722) — 6/19/2023 @ 5:10 am

    See how salutary it is when one takes the meds prescribed? Likewise, my own comments benefit when I take mine!

    felipe (8f56c3)

  224. https://dailycaller.com/2023/06/17/7774148-gender-freespeech-obama-judge-lgbtq/

    Obama judge rules against reality and says that a dog’s tail is a leg if the state says it is.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  225. Felipe, the law in Florida prohibits adult transition unless the transitioning individual files a form that doesn’t exist and which is not likely to exist any time soon. This is resulting, in effect, in state mandated detransition.

    Yeah, that’s a clear and present danger to the people I love who have already transitioned.

    I don’t think you comprehend the degree to which trans adults are under threat right now.

    aphrael (04915c)

  226. Thank you for the link, NJRob. I am interested in what Judge Talwani’s decision is based. Would a lawyer, here*, please explain the legal reasoning for her ruling?

    *I’d rather not have a link, thank you.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  227. from https://www.thedailybeast.com/former-attorney-general-bill-barr-compares-donald-trump-to-a-defiant-9-year-old-kid

    In an appearance on CBS News’ Face the Nation, Barr was asked if he felt Trump would put the country in danger if re-elected to the White House. “He’s like a defiant 9-year-old kid who’s always pushing the glass toward the edge of the table, defying his parents to stop him doing it…” Barr replied. “And he’s a very petty individual who will always put his interests ahead of the country’s, his personal gratification of his ego, but our country can’t be a therapy session for a troubled man like this.” He also rejected the mangled logic behind Trump’s recent protestations of innocence. “The legal theory by which he gets to take battle plans and sensitive national security information as his personal papers is absurd,” Barr said. “It’s just as wacky as the legal doctrine they came up with for, you know, having the vice president unilaterally determine who won the election.”

    This is the former Republican Attorney General who worked for Trump. However one scopes the threat to the nation, is this a description of a leader that imbues confidence? Rather it sounds like an individual who will impulsively test boundaries…as he did on Jan 6th and as he did with the classified documents…until something breaks. The problem is that this isn’t one disgruntled colleague but a steady stream of disillusioned advisors. Why do we refuse to listen?

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8)

  228. aphrael, I agree that I cannot read you mind, nor can I feel what you feel. Without knowing more about the law, than what you tell me, it sounds like the law keeps in place the affected person’s current status (puts their transitions on hold until…?) and that a candidate for transition is not going to die for want of medical treatment. I can imagine their pain during this period of denial because i had to endure a week of waiting until a dental surgeon was free to remove an infected tooth – sure I was prescribed pain meds, but I found little comfort in it, just as I am sure the pre-transitioned find no comfort now.

    The already transitioned are in solidarity with the pre-transitioned, to be sure, and they also share pain in sympathy. I cannot imagine, however, how those who have already transitioned are in danger, unless there is a provision in the law that their transition must be reversed. Do you believe it possible that forced de-transitioning is the path that Florida may take if the current law remains in place as a legal argument? If you do, then you will find me, and my fellow Independents persuadable to your cause.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  229. I ignored the following, but in the interest of making my mind clear to you I quote:

    Yeah, that’s a clear and present danger to the people I love who have already transitioned.

    I have told you that I reject this rhetoric. Do you really think repeating it will be fruiful? Why double down?

    felipe (8f56c3)

  230. William Barr had no trouble arguing before the Court of Claims that Trump’s alleged defamation of E. Jean Carroll was what Presidents are supposed to do. But his book had not come out in paperback yet. Or hardcover even.

    You got all these toadies, who not only enabled but actively encouraged Trump when his ass was still kissing sweet, now getting religion like they were on some road to Damascus or something. They should just f-f-f-fade away.

    nk (d8bd18)

  231. This one is for BuDuh, because it addresses the application of the Presidential Records Act and gets to the root of what Trump did wrong. (Hint — it wasn’t the crime, it was the coverup and wilful defiance):

    https://www.thefp.com/p/bill-barr-the-truth-about-the-trump

    Appalled (03f53c)

  232. nk (d8bd18) — 6/19/2023 @ 7:52 am

    Talkin’ ’bout my generation!

    felipe (8f56c3)

  233. Well, not “my” generation, but I liked that anthem.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  234. @231, Mitt Romney is about the lone well-known Trump critique who has been steadfastly consistent. How many hard or soft-MAGA will give his critique the time of day? Heck, Liz Cheney was fine with Trump going into 2020 even following his problematic phone call with Zelensky. If a slippery eel like Barr can level such a scorching perspective…when good money is still inexplicably on Trump…then there is some value, even if we are stuck mumbling “finally”. Is he excused for his previous sleaziness? No, absolutely not. But what insider that bent the knee to come work for Trump isn’t going to have at least a hint of orange about the mouth. The only one I might excuse is Mattis…maybe Kelly…who I do think saw a patriotic duty in “guiding” Trump and protecting national security.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  235. What is (No Labels) platform?

    What is Trump’s?………

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/18/2023 @ 6:42 pm

    See here

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  236. Would Hogan be perfect? Maybe not, but he’s a placeholder who is fit for the office. Right now….today….that’s appealing

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8) — 6/18/2023 @ 6:13 pm

    And he’s still not running.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  237. Of course, a No Labels president wouldn’t have a political base in Congress to do anything.

    An independent president whop stomped out both major parties in a groundswell of popular revolt? Those Congresspeople will be wanting to be liked pretty badly.

    That assumes NL would win a majority of the Electoral College, which I don’t see. That is even more of a fantasy than getting on 50 state ballots.

    Even if NL does get every ballot, it is more likely that at most they receive a plurality of the total votes and less than a majority of EC votes. With the Republicans in the House having a majority of state delegations, who do you think they will elect to be president?

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  238. Disaster at Sea:

    A submersible craft used to take people to see the wreck of the Titanic has gone missing in the Atlantic Ocean with its crew on board, sparking a major search and rescue operation.

    Tour firm OceanGate, which runs $250,000-a-seat expeditions to the wreck, said it was exploring all options to get the crew back safely.

    It said government agencies and deep sea firms were helping the operation.
    …………
    The missing craft is believed to be OceanGate’s Titan submersible, a truck-sized sub that holds five people and usually dives with a four-day supply of oxygen.

    It is not known when contact with the craft was lost.
    ………..
    The submersible usually carries a pilot, three paying guests, and what the company calls a “content expert”.

    A full dive to the Titanic wreck, including the descent and ascent, reportedly takes around eight hours.
    …………
    The vessel weighs 10,432 kg (23,000 lbs) and, according to the website, can reach depths of up to 4,000m and has 96 hours of life support available for a crew of five.
    ……………

    I wonder how many pages the liability waiver runs.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  239. NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/18/2023 @ 7:06 pm

    The Lord works in mysterious ways.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  240. 232: Bill Barr:

    …At its core, this is an obstruction case. Trump would not have been indicted just for taking the documents in the first place. Nor would he have been indicted even if he delayed returning them for a period while arguing about it.

    What got Trump criminally charged was his deceit and obstruction in responding to the grand jury subpoena served in May 2022 after he had stymied the government for a year….

    That’s almost certainly true, but then he was also indicted with 31 preliminary counts of possessing national defense information he was not entitled to keep, in addition to the obstruction and lying counts.

    ALan Dershowitz (with Andrew Stein) has an op-ed article in today’s New York Post all about how the government shouldn’t be allowed to refer in court to the title of the law he is charged with breaking: The Espionage Act. He says the law is misnamed (maybe in this context – but it is just that it wasn’t really written to cover this kind of thing.)

    Trump might have a defense on these counts in thathe neither intended to, nor actually harmed the national defense of the United States, but they’ve grown tougher on this in receent years.

    I think that doing that actually could help Trump a little because what he did is clearly not espionage so that might make the jury a little bit inclined to acquit. But I think people can understand.. (it could hurt him after a conviction, though)

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  241. Rip Murdock (eb1bd8) — 6/19/2023 @ 10:20 am

    With the Republicans in the House having a majority of state delegations, who do you think they will elect to be president?

    Not Trump, and not Biden, Trump won’t get every single Republican – besides some states will be equally divided and not vote, and they need 26 of the delations or 52% of the whole number of delegations)

    And if they remain deadlocked, the Senate’s choice for vice president (and they an choose only between the top two) will become Acting president.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  242. What a judge may ruele the state legislature can’t do, the trial lawyers may do”

    https://nypost.com/2023/06/17/woman-sues-hospital-for-removing-her-breasts-when-she-was-13-years-old

    A California woman whose breasts were removed when she was 13 years old because she thought she was transgender is now suing the doctors and hospital that oversaw the procedure — claiming they were in it for the money.

    Kayla Lovdahl, now 18, says she was pushed to “entertain the erroneous belief that she was transgender” at age 11, after being exposed to online influencers, according to the lawsuit she filed in California State Court against Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and four doctors….

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  243. most people hardly ever have to think about Biden.

    Unless you live near the southern border, or your child’s school is imparting “ethics” different than yours (and labeling yours “evil”), or you buy gasoline, or food, or are living on a fixed income. Or you lost your business, job or house due to pandemic dislocations. Or you are trying to deal with LEGAL immigration, or want to help people you worked with in Afghanistan, or the VA.

    But otherwise, life is peachy.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  244. It was pretty generally accepted in colonial times that there were cases in which this *was* the role of the colonial or state government

    The country has oscillated between public and private welfare systems several times. Private welfare is more responsive to individual needs, and public welfare is able to deal with large numbers of needy. Both have their uses.

    Lately, the government seems to see private welfare as competition and imposes many rules that make it more difficult and less responsive.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  245. I thought you were a strict constructionist like most conservatives. Your “interpretation” Is different then mine and the majority in this country.

    The preamble is just generalities and throat-clearing.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  246. NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/18/2023 @ 7:06 pm

    Hopefully the Dodgers attendance suffers for endorsing this vile, hateful organization.

    The Dodgers were just trying to be non-controversial, mistaking silencing of disagreement on LGTBQ (Mnemonic: Let’s Get Biden To Quit) issues for agreement.

    They reversed themselves twice and now have people on both sides not liking thrm.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  247. Why do we refuse to listen?

    AJ_Liberty (ad48e8) — 6/19/2023 @ 6:59 am

    That’s more of a question for TrumpWorld; they are the ones keeping him up in the polls.

    Regarding your other comments, while preventing Trump from being re-elected President is my overwhelming desire, DeSantis is not a better alternative, he is Trump’s Mini-Me. And given his steady fall in polling, he may not be the best candidate to challenge Trump. DeSantis (and the other Lilliputians) consistently defended Trump whenever Trump has been indicted (and I expect that to continue).

    As I have said before, I would support candidates that forcefully oppose Trump; currently there are only two, Hutchinson and Christie. Neither have a chance of winning even one primary, but they are the only ones making the case against Trump. I would also support a Lynn Cheney candidacy (No Labels?).

    Polling today does matter; it’s one of the criteria used by the RNC to determine who gets on debate stage. Putting one’s head in the sand regarding relative popularity of presidential candidates is just denying how a favored candidate is perceived by Republican voters. You may want Candidate X to be the nominee, but polls may show the majority of Republican voters are just not into Candidate X.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  248. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:14 am

    The preamble is just generalities and throat-clearing.

    No, the preamble (or its first three word) is to justify stepping outside the provisions for amending the Articles of Confederation.

    The U.S. constitution was unconstitutional.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  249. But otherwise, life is peachy.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:07 am

    Darn right!

    Rip Murdock (5943f0)

  250. The only one I might excuse is Mattis…maybe Kelly…who I do think saw a patriotic duty in “guiding” Trump and protecting national security.

    I think that a number of his early Cabinet members were serving the country, not the man. I will point out that Mattis quit rather than serve a lie, and that Romney interviewed for a job.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  251. The U.S. constitution was unconstitutional.

    So was revolution, according to King George.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  252. I wonder how many pages the liability waiver runs.

    Won’t matter. All that happens now is the company goes broke. Probably with its assets frozen by whatever court takes the case. People who pay $250,000 for a trip have good lawyers.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  253. With the Republicans in the House having a majority of state delegations, who do you think they will elect to be president?

    Trump? If so, then they are all culpable. But they won’t. They have 26 delegations and some are quite close. If Trump comes in behind NL, then those representatives have some soul searching to do. If he comes in third, they cannot elect him without destroying the Electoral College as an institution. It almost died with Andy Jackson.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  254. That is even more of a fantasy than getting on 50 state ballots.

    Again, I remind you that Perot got on 50 state ballots in a few months time. He didn’t start until March 1992, after the primaries were underway and Clinton was the presumed nominee.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  255. Sammy Finkelman (c32c29) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:02 am

    While the case is valid, her lawyer is just using her, much the same way that Gloria Allred used divorce plaintiffs. He has an agenda and his client comes second.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  256. 252.

    The U.S. constitution was unconstitutional.

    So was revolution, according to King George.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:53 am

    he Declaration of Independence deals with that.

    https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript

    …whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

    The word “people” appears in both texts.

    Also in the Second amendment, and the Tenth.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  257. 245. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:12 am

    Lately, the government seems to see private welfare as competition and imposes many rules that make it more difficult and less responsive.

    If you insist upon a tax exemption.

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  258. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 12:03 pm

    We’ll see. As far as Perot and 1992 goes, that was 31 years ago and a lot has changed. But keep on dreaming!

    Rip Murdock (5943f0)

  259. I think that a number of his early Cabinet members were serving the country, not the man. I will point out that Mattis quit rather than serve a lie, and that Romney interviewed for a job.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:49 am

    The worse the office holder, the more likely this is to happen. The New York City Police Commissioner resigned even though she still had much power. ALl Eric Adams wanted to do was personnel.

    zI had an idea. Maybe because she decided it wasn’t worht moivng into New York City for that (it had been postponed because of Covid)

    Sammy Finkelman (c32c29)

  260. Since many people just read this thread, I thought I would note that I have a new Substack newsletter on the Trump indictment.

    My post ahout it is here.

    Patterico (1a6b45)

  261. The U.S. constitution was unconstitutional.

    I took that to mean that the 1787 Constitutional Convention “illegally” usurped the Articles of Confederation, the original goal of the CC was to improve the Articles.

    Amending the Articles was virtually impossible given it required the unanimous consent of the states. Of course any changes to the Articles proved to be unworkable during the CC, hence they replaced it (“illegally”) with a whole new system of government.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  262. @262

    Hey Rip, I’m unable to find any citation that you’ve asked for, my apologies.

    whembly (d116f3)

  263. whembly (d116f3) — 6/19/2023 @ 1:59 pm

    From your original post, with my comments in italics:

    A lot of articles, pundits seems to make the point that POTUS, must make some assertive declaration that *waves hands* this is declassified and that there must be a paper trail.

    That is correct, Executive Order 13526 lays out the process.

    I’ve seen articles that the classification “office” at the Whitehouse argued that POTUS’ action can declassify docs, even without verbal assertion. (ie, handing a classified folder/doc to reporters).

    I really find it hard to believe that handing classified information to a reporter by a WH staffer automatically creates a declassified document.

    I’ve seen arguments made that any documents removed from Trump Whitehouse is presumptuously declassified, but any removal wouldn’t have had happened without a POTUS’ approval (ie, move during transition before incoming POTUS).

    That is the claim by Trump, and is belied by the Executive Order and by The New York Times v. Central Intelligence Agency, No. 18-2112 (2d Cir. 2020).

    Courts has already stated that POTUS has near plenary declassification authority (I say near, because “nukes” info there are specific statutory laws governing that). But, courts seems to loathed to fully describe what that means and set rulings as narrow as possible to that specific act (ie, the Clinton tapes).

    The Clinton tapes (which were not classified but considered Clinton’s personal recordings with an author) case involved the Presidential Records Act, not the Espionage Act.
    …………
    whembly (d116f3) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:41 am

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  264. We’ll see. As far as Perot and 1992 goes, that was 31 years ago and a lot has changed. But keep on dreaming!

    Yes, a lot of unconstitutional laws have been passed to shut down ballot access.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  265. he Declaration of Independence deals with that.

    King George was not a fan of John Locke.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  266. Yes, a lot of unconstitutional laws have been passed to shut down ballot access.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/19/2023 @ 3:16 pm

    I’m sure No Labels backers (whomever they are) have plenty of money to mount legal challenges.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  267. BTW, my first professional work was on one of the ASW planes they are using in the Titanic search. They may find the sub (with sonobuoys) but I wonder what they will do next. 12,000 feet is pretty deep.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  268. Republicans Have Made Their Choice

    In the wake of the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol, Republican officeholders had three choices.

    They could stick with and defend Donald Trump and his riotous allies……….

    Or they could criticize and condemn the president as conservative dissenters………

    Or they could leave. ………

    But we know what actually happened. A few Republicans left and a few complained, but most remained loyal to the party and the president with nary a peep to make about the fact that Trump was willing to bring an end to constitutional government in the United States if it meant he could stay in office.

    We have been watching this dynamic play out a second time with Trump’s indictment on federal espionage charges for mishandling classified documents as a private citizen. The most prominent Republican officeholders wasted no time with their full-throated denunciations of the indictment, the Department of Justice and the Biden administration.
    ………….
    All of this is typical. With vanishingly few exceptions, Republicans are unwilling to discipline Trump or withdraw their support for his political leadership or even just criticize him for his actions. The most we’ve seen, Romney aside, is a nod to the fact that these are serious charges. This is a “serious case with serious allegations,” said Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, who nonetheless added that this prosecution represented a “double standard” and that “You can’t protect Democrats while targeting and hunting Republicans.”
    …………
    ………… What is striking about the Republican Party is the extent to which it has, for decades now, cultivated the opposite — a highly instrumental view of our political system, in which rules and laws are legitimate only insofar as they allow for the acquisition and concentration of power in Republican hands.
    …………
    …………(T)here is also the reality that Trump is the apotheosis of a propensity for lawlessness within the Republican Party. He is what the party and its most prominent figures have been building toward for nearly half a century. I think he knows it and I think they do too.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  269. On serving in Trump’s administration: Shortly after he took office, I came to the conclusion that honorable people could do that — with one very large exception. By serving, they could, to some extent, protect the nation from his worst impulses. And some times, even, make good policies when the Loser wasn’t paying attention.

    The exception: No honorable person should have agreed to be a Trump spokesman. He requires those who speak for him to lie, often in absurd ways, for example, the claim about the size of the crowd at his inauguration.

    Jim Miller (89da91)

  270. The Dodgers chose to insult traditional Catholics. Did they realize that? I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Catholic, but I wouldn’t make fun of nuns.

    I do wish some enterprising reporter would ask the Dodgers which religion will be their next target. One of the many Protestant groups? Islam? Hinduism? Judaism?

    (As someone who thinks there is much truth in Hanlon’s razor, I am inclined, even in this instance, to assume stupidity rather than malice. But I fear the organization will not learn from their error.)

    Jim Miller (89da91)

  271. @Kevin@244 “Unless you live near the southern border, or your child’s school is imparting “ethics” different than yours (and labeling yours “evil”), or you buy gasoline, or food, or are living on a fixed income. Or you lost your business, job or house due to pandemic dislocations. Or you are trying to deal with LEGAL immigration, or want to help people you worked with in Afghanistan, or the VA.”

    Most of that doesn’t involve thinking about Biden. People in immigrant states, as you probably know, are used to dealing with the immigration issue day in and day out. It’s a normal part of just living their lives. Most of the late Afghan war stuff barring the actual withdrawl itself, also happened under Trump and even the withdrawl itself was operating under the timetable that Trump had agreed to. And while I realize that 2020-2022 just all compressed together, most of the various Covid issues (shut-down, funds, etc) happened under Trump. Once the vaccines were available in spring of 2021 (shortly after Biden was sworn in) restrictions started to loosen up pretty quickly.

    @Jim@271 I am Catholic and I don’t particularly appreciate that group or the Met Gala where people dressed up as Catholics, but in the end, while I disagree with the way they choose to say what they say, I support their right to say it. Freedom of speech.

    Nic (896fdf)

  272. Here’s a condensed version of what Trump said on Bret Baier: “You’re damn right I ordered the Code Red!”

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  273. What Erick Erickson saw…

    Guys, Trump admitted on TV tonight he withheld documents from the grand jury. Game over, legally. What an idiot.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  274. 6/19/2023 @ 3:34 pm

    If I quoted that screed, I’d probably pretend to be someone else. What an amazing pile of crap, suggesting that Trump is the GOP’s Kwisatz Haderach

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  275. Game over, legally. What an idiot.

    AGAIN! This is as common as bombshells from Comer.

    Mencken’s Law in action.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  276. People in immigrant states, as you probably know, are used to dealing with the immigration issue day in and day out. It’s a normal part of just living their lives.

    Yes, well, I have, too. But from what I hear unless you live in a border town, you really don’t know what is happening.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  277. Things you get used to: It used to be that the Spanish-speaking portion of LA was bordered by the Harbor and Santa Ana Freeways. Now it is most everywhere north and east of the 101/405 interchange, an area maybe 10 times as large.

    And people wonder why rents are so high in the rest of LA.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  278. Nic,

    How do you reconcile saying you are Cathomic and being an abortion advocate which is immediate excommunication?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  279. @NJRob@279 I’m going to treat this as a serious question, even though it isn’t really phrased that way. I am not an abortion advocate, I am pro choice in that I do not think abortion should be illegal. Being pro-choice is not immediate excommunication, even having an abortion isn’t immediate excommunication. It’s actually kind of hard to get excommunicated in the modern era, much less immediately. It is considered being in a type of cooperation with an intrinsic evil, but there are a lot of things in society that are considered intrinsically evil in modern US society, many of which are endemic to capitalism and it is not really possible to be active in modern US society without being in cooperation with some kind of intrinsic evil.

    There are a few reasons. First, the Catholic Church treats a lot of women’s healthcare as abortion. IVF, the pill, etc, which I think is too broad. The only thing it pretends isn’t an abortion that actually is is the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy (there’s a whole complicated theology about 2ndary effects). However, many of the anti-abortion people would disallow any kind of abortion, up to and including ending an ectopic pregnancy or alleviating an in-process miscarriage, which I am more than aware of, having been propagandized to by Operation Rescue as a high school student. Second, as part of the 2nd Vatican council (Vatican II) the Church declared that freedom of religion was an essential Catholic value as part of the Dignitatus Humanae. Therefore in support of freedom of religion, there are several things that I do not support making illegal which are common in the US, like divorce or adultery, or abortion; which are considered immoral by the Catholic Church.

    Nic (896fdf)

  280. R.I.P. John Romita, Sr (93), Silver Age Marvel artist who took Spider-Man over when Ditko quit. Survived by his son, John Romita, Jr, who followed his father into comics and has possibly surpassed him.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  281. Our current policy on Taiwan seems a little too full of nuance. We are acting like we will defend Taiwan from an invasion by the Chinese on one hand while on the other in Blinken is in Beijing telling the Chinese we do not support Taiwan independence. Both things can be true, but there are some incongruities. What exactly is the current message?
    It is a bit like Venezuela filling Puerto Rico with munitions and then going to Washington DC and telling us that they do not support Puerto Rican independence

    steveg (b6fbaa)

  282. @279/280 become a christian existentialist catholic who asks where in the bible does it say abortion is murder or a fetus is a baby or don’t eat meat on fridays. When did the pope become infallible(1867) and why.

    asset (3d0c04)

  283. @asset@283 😛 I’ve had sooooo much Catholic education. It doesn’t say that abortion is murder in the bible. In fact, in the old testament it recommends abortion as a test for adultery. The bible also doesn’t treat a fetus as a baby, causing a miscarriage is a lesser offense than murder. The don’t eat meat on Fridays in theory is supposed to be to experience some deprivation in solidarity with Christ, but may have actually been an attempt by one of the medieval popes to save his home fishing village when beef became more common. Infallibility is a whole long thing on its own and only applies to very specific and extremely rare situations.

    Nic (896fdf)

  284. @284 I know it doesn’t ;but some think it does. If you must be a catholic christian, christian existentialism is the way to go!

    asset (3d0c04)

  285. Felipe, at 229:

    That is a good,and honorable comment and a conversation that I think would be valuable and that I deeply would love to have.

    But I just can’t right now. I am so consumed with fury about beyond wonderland that I can’t have a good conversation about a hard topic right now.

    For those of us who go to raves,that is a moment of deep and powerful peace and joy. For me is the moment of my greatest openness and my most grounded, and if it’s working well, almost everyone in the crowd feels a transcendent connectedness. It is a deeply spiritual moment, a vulnerable moment that is safe.

    To have that moment disrupted in that fashion —-

    I wasn’t there. But for the chance happenstance of who I met when, I might have been there instead of at lightning.

    I feel so much fury, just burning inside me.

    aphrael (04915c)

  286. Thank you for answering.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  287. https://abcnews.go.com/US/mystery-powder-kansas-republican-lawmakers/story?id=100193994

    100 Kansas Republican legislators, Justice Thomas and Donald Trump have all been targeted and received letters containing a “white powder” in the mail.

    Sickos exist.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  288. aphrael (04915c) — 6/19/2023 @ 11:35 pm

    I rarely watch TV or TV substitutes, so Your reference to this tragedy is the first I have heard. Murder is such a great wound, and is, without doubt, the clearest example of how an act of evil affects everyone.

    Your anger at the loss of life is absolutely just. I hate to think how this event will be used to “score points” When what is needed is an unconditional love to comfort, console, and condole with the victims and their families.

    May we grieve together, first, then seek the truth and then hope the law, not vengeance, exact justice.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  289. https://dailycaller.com/2023/06/19/hunter-biden-burisma-executives-account-maltese-bank-emails/

    Hunter Biden helped executives from Ukrainian energy firm Burisma open an account with a corrupt bank in Malta when he served on Burisma’s board, emails on his laptop show.

    Biden sent income statements, passport bills and utility bills in 2016 to Burisma executive Vadym Pozharskyi so he could open an account with the Malta-based Satabank, Biden’s emails show.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  290. NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:39 am

    Was that illegal to do?

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8)

  291. @291

    Hunter Biden plea agreement.

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:21 am

    That is a sweetheart deal, divergent of agency policies, namely the Ashcroft memo.

    whembly (d116f3)

  292. @293

    Was that illegal to do?

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:45 am

    Facilitating bribery is illegal my dude.

    The hard part, is if the investigative agencies are interested in investigating/prosecuting this.

    whembly (d116f3)

  293. Nic (896fdf) — 6/19/2023 @ 10:53 pm

    Good morning Nic! This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad.

    [Please take my remarks with the spirit of charity in which they made.]

    I have grand-nieces the express the same thoughts as you do. They were “born Catholic,” which is to say they were Baptised Catholic, raised Catholic, and educated Catholic. But they have adopted the practice of compartmentalising their lives into private faith, and public action.”

    They go to Mass on Sundays and the days of Obligation. They observe Lent and Advent. But they express similar views that Nancy Pelosi expresses in public. They have accepted Pelosi as their example of a good Catholic.

    When they converse with me about the practice of their faith after I have inquired as to the state of their spiritual life, I have informed them that, if that is really how they practice their faith, then they are nominal Catholics.

    Of course they objected to my assessment, thinking that I am calling them pretend Catholics. But after they have had their say, I correct their misunderstanding by explaining that “nominal” means “not appreciating the true value or cost of their faith:”

    True value refers to the foundational value to the faithful, and by extension, mankind that was introduced by such things as the Decalogue in particular, Scripture in General, and Tradition as well as tradition over the generations.

    Cost refers to the price Jesus paid and the price paid by the martyrs that followed His example. Fidelity to the Truth and Love needed to lay one’s life down for another is the minimum, not the maximum.

    —-

    So what have you actually said that leads me to believe that you practice a similar “compartmentalisation” that separates the practice of your faith from the practice of your public life? [bold is mine]

    Therefore in support of freedom of religion, there are several things that I do not support making illegal which are common in the US, like divorce or adultery, or abortion; which are considered immoral by the Catholic Church.

    I do not gloss over the differences between illegal and immoral; I high-lite them as the hallmark of compartmentalism.

    —–
    NJRob, Catholicism is such that that spectrum of Catholics spans both the far-left and the far right because the Church encourages the faithful to use their brains and their consciences. Those on the far-right have formed too many scruples, while those on the far-left have formed too few. Nic and I are no exception.

    May the Peace of the Lord be with you both.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  294. Gah!

    …” Catholicism is such that [the] spectrum…”

    Also, I had two thoughts in my ancient brain competing for control of my fingers; I should have bolded only the words
    illegal” and “immoral.”

    More evidence that my mind is slip slidin’ away and I am near my destination.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  295. Please forgive me, Whembly! My OCD is triggered…

    The hard [question] is, [are] the investigative agencies interested in investigating/prosecuting this?”
    whembly (d116f3) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:46 am

    Whew, ok, I’ve gotten that out of my system. Sorry man, and thanks for understanding, I’ll go yell at the children on my lawn…

    felipe (8f56c3)

  296. https://www.thecollegefix.com/mayo-clinic-professor-suspended-after-saying-testosterone-improves-athletic-performance/

    Testosterone improves athletic performance is a no brainer. It’s also a bannable offense. Speaking the truth is verboten. We’ve become a communist state so fast most haven’t even noticed.

    NJRob (e71cbc)

  297. Was that illegal to do?

    Rip Murdock (eb1bd8) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:45 am

    To hide ill gotten gains.

    You betcha.

    NJRob (e71cbc)

  298. Regarding this Hunter Biden thing — what’s known?

    1 Hunter took the sweetheart gig with Burisma. He was offered the job because his last name was Biden.
    2 Joe Biden knew he took the job and did not try to prevent Hunter from taking it.

    What’s not known

    1 Joe did anything for Burisma.
    2 Joe was paid anything by Burisma
    3 Hunter tried to influence his Dad to do anything for Burisma.

    There are allegations there might be tapes but nobody has seen or heard the tapes so there might not be tapes.

    The plea deal does close out any opportunity for getting Hunter to drop a dime on Daddy or anything coming out in court. But it also closes the continuing investigations excuse the Feds like to do when there is information they do not want to cough up to Congress.

    I’m sure there is more. I have not been following this case closely. Every President has relatives and every President’s relative is approached by bad people who want to influence the President. Many of the relatives take the bad people’s money.

    The media can’t get past (i) the stupid way this laptop story got out and (ii) the scuzzy porno stuff on the laptop and (iii) Hunter’s drug and sex probems. Which means there seem to be insinuations but not much in the way of allegations supported by documentations that tie to the big guy.

    Just an alert to the angry right (if it cares). Me and a lot of others would care more about this story if we were not afraid of Mr. Retribution and his designs on democracy. We’d listen to you more if you didn’t try to excuse Retribution Man’s lawbreaking at every opportunity. It’s the old lesser of two evils thing. It’s not fair or good for the country. There is a solution though — and that is stop rallying to Trump.

    Appalled (d985b2)

  299. @298 felipe (8f56c3) — 6/20/2023 @ 8:15 am
    felipe, please do correct me on this! I have horribad grammer!

    whembly (d116f3)

  300. To hide ill gotten gains.

    You betcha.

    NJRob (e71cbc) — 6/20/2023 @ 8:26 am

    Facilitating bribery is illegal my dude.

    The hard part, is if the investigative agencies are interested in investigating/prosecuting this.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:46 am

    I look forward to the public House Oversight and Judiciary hearings on Hunter Biden, the laptop, and the whistleblowers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  301. That is a sweetheart deal, divergent of agency policies, namely the Ashcroft memo.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/20/2023 @ 7:45 am

    I believe the Ashcroft memo has been replaced by this memorandum.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  302. Given the laptop’s chain of custody issues (after being possessed by Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, the New York Post, and WaPo) I wouldn’t trust anything on it as holy writ. Whatever documents are on the laptop need to be authenticated by the authors before they can be used in court.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  303. Virtually every Attorney General since John Ashcroft has issued their own memoranda on sentencing policies, so the Ashcroft memo has been out of date since 2003.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  304. Who get gold doubloon nailed to mast?

    nk (fd1f0d)

  305. “Hunter Biden and his laptop is a ‘scandal of unprecedented proportions’?
    Good grief.
    The guy is a loser who had the dumb luck to have a dad who is now president. I’ll be surprised if he’s indicted for anything more than tax fraud and lying about his guns.”
    –Paul Montagu, 7/31/2022

    Today

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden’s son Hunter has reached a deal with federal prosecutors on charges he failed to pay federal income tax and illegally possessed a weapon, according to a letter in U.S. District Court in Delaware, and will plead guilty to tax offenses but likely avoid time behind bars.

    Someone on MSNBC mentioned that the FBI said the investigation is still ongoing, so we’ll see if something else goes down.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  306. Who get gold doubloon nailed to mast?
    nk (fd1f0d) — 6/20/2023 @ 9:31 am

    HAHAHA! Brilliant, nk.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  307. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/20/2023 @ 9:46 am

    Spot on.

    felipe (8f56c3)

  308. Me and a lot of others would care more about this story if we were not afraid of Mr. Retribution and his designs on democracy.

    This brings up some honest questions:

    1) How much corruption and crooked “justice” are you prepared to accept to avoid Donald Trump?

    2) If Trump were not the GOP nominee (and it wasn’t a Trump surrogate like Ramaswamy or Jr), would you care more aobut this obvious corruption?

    3) Can you not entertain two thoughts at the same time?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  309. Who get gold doubloon nailed to mast?

    For Hunter. no one. He’s not the whale it was put up there for.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  310. Someone on MSNBC mentioned that the FBI said the investigation is still ongoing, so we’ll see if something else goes down.

    That’s just a shield against Congressional oversight of this sweetheart deal.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  311. Could I please see the hands of those who think they could fail to report $3 million in income, pay no tax, and get misdemeanor probation?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  312. WSJ on Hunter’s plea deal (unlocked)

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  313. Yet Trump is facing 30+ felony counts in NY for paying hush money.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  314. Kevin M:

    It’s sometimes hard to tell what a body will stand until he has to stand it. In 2016 (when my opinion of Trump wasn’t all that much higher than it is now), I voted Libertarian because I felt Hillary was too corrupt (remember the Clinton foundation?) to vote for. Biden seems wealthier than a man of his background and middling government salaries should be. That bothers me. Still, the actual charges leveled against Biden seem meagre.

    Trump really is a threat to Democracy and I don’t want to do anything to elect him. Ordinarially, the No Labels folks would attract me. Until we are done with Trump, I won’t dilute the anti-Trump vote by going thrid party.

    As for the Biden story — I want to understand the relationship between Biden and a son who gets a lot of dubious money. It’s obvious why people want to buy H Biden’s paintings or place him on well paid Boards. Does that get anything from Joe? Does Hunter kick back any money to the big guy. Is there any proof of anything? Or is Hunter just the 2023 version of Billy Carter? Unanswered questions.

    I can have two thoughts at the same time. I can even consider the consequences of both at the same time.

    Appalled (d985b2)

  315. Fair point about oversight, Kevin, and I hope the House pushes on it.

    For context, the Hunter investigation started in 2018, under Trump, and the appointment of Mr. Weiss had to have had AG Barr’s blessing.

    Also, there’s no mention that Hunter’s income was ill-gotten or illegal. Like with his Burisma gig, it was probably skeezy but not criminal; the crime was his concealing that income from the federal government. He’s going to need to be out of jail so he can work to pay child support and pay back the IRS for unpaid taxes and penalties.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  316. Is there a chance that it’s not actually over, that Hunter received the $1.5 million as part of money-laundering scheme or the commission of some other crime? Yes, but I haven’t heard of or seen evidence of such acts, and DOJ never alleged anything beyond what he’s pleading guilty to, so I’ll say “unlikely”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  317. Impressive prediction, Paul 308.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  318. BTW, the current limited hangout from the Dems is that “Hunter just paid his taxes late.” In fact he had blown it all on crack and hookers, and a friendly Hollywood lawyer paid off his bill.

    Kevin Morris, an entertainment attorney and novelist who earned a fortune representing the co-creators of “South Park” and won a Tony Award as the co-producer of “The Book of Mormon,” footed Hunter Biden’s overdue taxes totaling over $2 million — more than twice what was previously reported, a source familiar with conversations between the two told The Post.

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/08/hollywood-lawyer-kevin-morris-paid-off-over-2m-of-hunter-bidens-taxes/

    Could someone please distinguish this payment for Hunter from Cohen’s payment to Stormy? Both payments were made to help an announced political candidate, according to that logic.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  319. @319:

    Not every crime can be proved (take Trump for example), but not filing on $3 million in income (and possibly more in earlier years) is easily proven. Most of us would be hesitant to roll them dice.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  320. I can have two thoughts at the same time.

    OK, that shot was unworthy. Sorry.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  321. Could I please see the hands of those who think they could fail to report $3 million in income, pay no tax, and get misdemeanor probation?

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/20/2023 @ 10:08 am

    It’s possible:

    According to the court documents, the tax liability was related to combined income of $3 million for those two years—$1.5 million per year. In 2021, Biden claimed to have paid the IRS what he owed. However, paying the liability after the due date (in this case, April 17, 2018, for the 2017 tax year and April 15, 2019, for the 2018 tax year) doesn’t mean a crime was not committed.

    A misdemeanor failure to pay can be escalated to a felony in some cases. According to the Department of Justice manual, those involve individuals who fail to file tax returns or pay a tax “but who also commit acts of evasion or obstruction.” In that case, the charges would be brought as felonies under sections 7201 or 7212(a). That’s not the case here—likely because Biden paid the tax due and was cooperating with authorities.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  322. @NJRob@287 You’re welcome.

    @felipe@296 It’s more about what I expect from my own behavior vs what I think the law should force other people to do. You can call that nominal if you want, but Christ himself said that he did not come in order to be an earthly king.

    @Kevin@314 Judging from the number of commercials I see for tax lawyers who want to know if the IRS says that you owe them back taxes and if you’d like to reduce the amount you owe, there are a lot of people.

    Nic (896fdf)

  323. That’s not the case here—likely because Biden paid the tax due and was cooperating with authorities.

    He didn’t. Someone else paid it for him (and why?). He had used shell companies in dodgy places to hide the income. WHEN CAUGHT he cooperated. That’s not the same thing as calling up the IRS and offering to come clean.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  324. Judging from the number of commercials I see for tax lawyers who want to know if the IRS says that you owe them back taxes and if you’d like to reduce the amount you owe, there are a lot of people.

    Those ads all suggest that going to the IRS is loads better than them coming to you. Hunter had tried to hide the income and got caught, THEN offered to pay up. OF course, he had blown all the money so (somehow) a Democrat-connected Hollywood lawyer ponied up the funds.

    That payment does not reduce the stench. Just ask Stormy.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  325. Kevin,

    It is like Bunny Mellon paying money to support John Edward’s mistress and baby. That wasnt a crime because there wasn’t proof it was done for a political purpose and not for personal reasons.

    Some people like to help celebrities and politicians because they want to be around them and/or part of their circle.

    DRJ (2dc07c)

  326. He didn’t. Someone else paid it for him (and why?). …….

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/20/2023 @ 11:51 am

    Kevin Morris, an entertainment attorney, loaned him the money to do so, probably to cash in like everybody else.

    The lawyer, Kevin Morris, has quietly taken on an expansive role as a financier, confidant and would-be avenger for Mr. Biden, handling sensitive subjects for President Biden’s son that could have acute political ramifications for the White House.

    Mr. Morris lent more than $2 million to Hunter Biden, which went to supporting his family and paying back taxes that are a subject of the ongoing federal investigation, according to four people familiar with the matter.

    Mr. Morris advised Mr. Biden as he navigated a paternity and child support lawsuit, and helped him with his art career and a memoir published last year that was partly a response to attacks from former President Donald J. Trump.

    He is funding a documentary project that is expected to build on the memoir’s redemption story, while depicting the president’s son as the victim of allies of Mr. Trump who distributed to the media a cache of files that appears to have come from a laptop abandoned by Mr. Biden in a Delaware repair shop.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  327. Further, Hunter wasn’t the politician. He wasn’t even in the Administration like Ivanka. I feel sure DC politicians want to protect everyone’s children, even adult children, since it is a horrible fishbowl for all the families.

    DRJ (2dc07c)

  328. Saagar Enjeti @esaagar
    Imagine if a normal citizen was a years long drug addict who:
    – Lied on gun form
    – failed to pay 2 million in taxes
    – got a Dem donor/Hollywood lawyer to pay it for you
    – Had multiple corrupt foreign business dealings

    They’d be in jail yesterday. Hunter is going free

    NJRob (e71cbc)

  329. Normal people have children who are drug addicts, lie and defraud people and even steal to support their drug habits, and the parents may pay to deal with their problems. If there are criminal charges, the children typically go to rehab and pay fines if no one is injured.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  330. The irony is that Trump has a probation officer and Hunter most probably won’t.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  331. felipe — i have no idea what kind of press coverage this is getting, this is one of those stories that i got through my community outside the press, spreading like wildfire on instant message and the like.

    i thank you for your kind words and support.

    for the rave community as a whole this is just *devastating*

    aphrael (b7fd7c)

  332. Further, Hunter wasn’t the politician.

    Neither was Stormy or Cohen. The argument there was that the payment helped Trump avoid a scandal while he was an official candidate. Similarly here.

    And besides, is the lawyers largess with his “loan” out of the goodness of his heart, or is he expecting some favors returned later?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  333. “I’ll be surprised if he’s indicted for anything more than tax fraud and lying about his guns”

    It’s something that H. Biden thought he could get away with either…especially as open as he’s been about his struggle with drug abuse….and the fact that his father was a potential candidate for President at the time. I could imagine that drug abuse colors one’s judgment.

    I understand that people desperately feel that they can harm Joe by viscerally attacking Hunter, but there’s an unseemly aspect to it. Hunter has undoubtedly capitalized on his name. And Joe has not done enough to avoid the appearance of corruption. Even though I do not see Joe having committed a crime in Ukraine, he still should have erred on the side of not giving any appearance of influence peddling. Other administration people could have leaned on Ukraine to remove Shotkin. Some of this is self inflicted.

    Still, the obsessive focus on Hunter is needed to manage the cognitive dissonance of Trump. There has to be competing narratives: selective prosecution, payoffs, and unequal justice. It just comes across as tedious. Hunter is not an elected official. We should hesitate before trying to ruin his life. How exactly is this Christian?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  334. Started a new post on Hunter Biden if you would like to migrate over there.

    JVW (c30330)

  335. Normal people have children who are drug addicts, lie and defraud people and even steal to support their drug habits, and the parents may pay to deal with their problems. If there are criminal charges, the children typically go to rehab and pay fines if no one is injured.

    I happen to know thousands of these folks, and some do get way with it (and again and again). They have affluent parents or connections. And lots do not, particularly if they are black, poor and/or rely on a public defender.

    Rehab by court order has a huge fail rate. All rehab does is gets the drugs out of one’s system (by isolation) and points people in the general direction of recovery (and sometimes not even that). Most people who get out of a forced rehab are loaded before the sun goes down.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  336. Still, the obsessive focus on Hunter is needed to manage the cognitive dissonance of Trump. There has to be competing narratives: selective prosecution, payoffs, and unequal justice. It just comes across as tedious. Hunter is not an elected official. We should hesitate before trying to ruin his life. How exactly is this Christian?

    Well, when people are lectured time and again on the Rule of Law, they have some expectations that their lecturers will be consistent. You don’t have to like Donald Effing Trump to expect that.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  337. Trump-backed Republican who ran for Mark Meadows’ old House seat gets probation for campaign finance violation
    ……….
    Lynda Bennett, a North Carolina real estate agent, pleaded guilty in March to one count of “accepting contributions in the name of another,” according to court documents. Bennett was also ordered to pay a $7,500 fine as part of her sentence.

    During the sentencing hearing Tuesday, Justice Department prosecutor Ryan Crosswell told the court the FBI had discovered Bennett’s crime as “part of a larger investigation.”
    ……….
    According to the plea agreement, Bennett transferred a $25,000 loan from a family member to her federal campaign committee, falsely reporting the money as a personal loan from her own funds.
    ………
    She lost her GOP primary race in 2020 to Madison Cawthorn, who served one term before losing his primary in 2022.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  338. Still no word on the Titan as their air supply dwindles

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  339. Still no word on the Titan as their air supply dwindles

    They have another day at least. Sonobuoys can pick up sounds at that depth.

    Of course, it may be in a twisted wreck on the floor of the Atlantic and none of this matters.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  340. They are supposed to have a 96 hour supply of oxygen or air, which should mean at least 72 hours, so they could be OK till tomorrow..

    Last year they were out of communication for awhile.

    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/06/20/titanic-submarine-passenger-communication-failed-on-my-mission-too

    Mr Reiss said he did three separate dives, including two more off the coast of New York, and “every time they lost communication”…

    https://nypost.com/2023/06/19/titanic-tourist-sub-was-lost-for-a-few-hours-last-year-during-trip

    The submarine that vanished during a tourist trip to the wreckage of the Titanic had gotten lost for about two and a half hours during a similar trip last year.

    The OceanGate Expeditions’ five-man Titan submarine was featured in a CBS Sunday Morning segment late last year, with correspondent David Pogue following a trip to the shipwreck site about 370 miles off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.

    Reacting to the news that Titan and its crew had gone missing Monday morning, Pogue tweeted that he was on board the same sub when he was filming his story last summer.

    “You may remember that the @OceanGateExped sub to the #Titanic got lost for a few hours LAST summer, too, when I was aboard,” Pogue said.

    During the segment, Pogue narrated that the submarine had lost communication with the ship guiding its movement underwater, ruining the trip some tourists paid $250,000 to join.

    “There’s no GPS underwater, so the surface ship is supposed to guide the sub to the ship wreck by sending text messages,” Pogue said in the story. “But on this dive, communications somehow broke down. The sub never found the wreck.”

    If the only thing that broke down was their communication, they could have surfaced and have access to air. Aircraft are searching for them.

    Sammy Finkelman (d007a3)

  341. If anything bad happened at 12,000 feet, they would be dead before they know what was happening. There would be no calling for help.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  342. Further, Hunter wasn’t the politician.

    Neither was Stormy or Cohen. The argument there was that the payment helped Trump avoid a scandal while he was an official candidate. Similarly here.

    The evidence showed Trump wanted to hide the story and reimbursed Cohen for his payments. There is no evidence that Daddy Biden did that. He probably doesn’t like his son’s choices but lots of parents feel that way.

    And besides, is the lawyers largess with his “loan” out of the goodness of his heart, or is he expecting some favors returned later?

    We don’t know. That is why we look for proof of his intent, e.g., evidence he got something in return. Not just assumptions.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  343. https://freebeacon.com/democrats/democrat-donor-arrested-for-starting-massive-fire-democrats-blamed-on-climate-change/

    Democrat Donor Arrested for Starting Massive Fire Democrats Blamed on Climate Change
    Several firefighters injured in ‘ginormous’ blaze; suspect also donated to the Lincoln Project

    What happened: Authorities busted a Democratic donor for allegedly starting a “ginormous inferno” in Yosemite National Park. Democratic politicians had insisted climate change was to blame for the blaze, which destroyed more than 100 homes and injured several firefighters in July 2022.

    Just as Michael Crichton prophesized in his book State of Fear.

    NJRob (e71cbc)

  344. We don’t know. That is why we look for proof of his intent, e.g., evidence he got something in return. Not just assumptions.

    One of his clients will need something later, and it will “just happen.” That’s how fixers work.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  345. Some things known, some things not quite right some things new to me

    https://nypost.com/2023/06/19/10-reasons-we-know-that-covid-19-leaked-from-the-wuhan-lab

    A key Chinese scientist who collaborated with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, Dr. Zhou Yusen, filed for a patent for a COVID vaccine on February 24, 2020, according to documents obtained by The Australian. [I knee this. The early date is itself suspicious. Apparently they don’t have the application itself]

    The early timing of his filing raises concerns that the unnamed vaccine was in development months before the COVID-19 pandemic became public.

    Yet less than three months after filing his patent, Dr. Zhou Yusen died under mysterious circumstances.

    The Chinese media said he died from “falling off the roof” of the Wuhan lab.

    Here is a story about a Senate report saying there may have been tow lasb leaks

    https://nypost.com/2023/04/17/senate-gop-report-raises-possibility-of-two-covid-lab-leaks/

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  346. Breaking news: Banging sounds heard during Titan search, according to internal US government memo

    Sonar has picked up banging sounds on Tuesday from underneath the water while searching for a submersible with five people onboard that went missing two days earlier on a dive to the Titanic wreckage, according to an internal US government memo on the search.

    It was unclear when the banging was heard Tuesday or for how long, based on the memo obtained by CNN. A later update sent Tuesday night suggested more sounds were heard though it was not described as “banging.”

    “Additional acoustic feedback was heard and will assist in vectoring surface assets and also indicating continued hope of survivors,” the update reads.

    A Canadian P3 aircraft also located a white rectangular object in the water, according to that update, but another ship set to investigate was diverted to help research the acoustic feedback instead, according to that update.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  347. The early timing of his filing raises concerns that the unnamed vaccine was in development months before the COVID-19 pandemic became public.

    There is good indication that they knew in October-November. If they had isolated the virus (easy if you made it), a killed-virus vaccine can be made pretty quickly. Testing it takes a while, but patents don’t require that (if it doesn’t work the patent is useless).

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  348. China created the virus. Of course they had the sequencing down.

    Then we have our own liars amd frauds. The CDC director who knew the vaccines didn’t stop infection, but went on tv and lied to the public, repeatedly.

    https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/06/20/cdc-director-knew-covid-vax-did-not-prevent-infection-n559242

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  349. Regarding Putin’s War Against Ukraine and his noises for negotiation, I have one solution.
    Since Russia is China’s junior partner and because Ukraine may not have existed today without our support, my proposal is this: That both Russia and Ukraine submit to binding arbitration, where the US and China negotiate an end to Putin’s war. An important condition is that Putin ends up with less territory than what he had before February 2022, as the price for him starting this criminal invasion.
    The only nagging issue is whether Putin can be trusted to hold up his end. There would have to be serious penalties for his welshing.
    The chances of this ever happening are probably close to zero, but a negotiation between two actual superpowers, where each side advocates for their ally, seems like a good path to end this waste of a war. I haven’t heard anyone else make this proposal, maybe because it’s a little out there, but why not put it on the table.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  350. But if Chairman Xi is going to whine that Biden accurately stated that the ChiCom dictator is a dictator, never mind.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  351. Here’s yet another Supreme Court Justice getting an expense-paid vacation from a billionaire.

    On late Tuesday night, ProPublica published an extensive report titled “Justice Sonia Sotomayor Took Luxury Fishing Vacation With Democrat Billionaire Who Later Had Cases Before the Court.” The article summary reads “In the years after the undisclosed trip to Alaska, Democrat megadonor George Soros’ currency trading operation has repeatedly had business before the Supreme Court. Sotomayor has never recused herself.”

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  352. Paul Montagu #354

    I read the article regarding Judge Alito’s conduct. The concern I have is that this is not at all similar to Justice Thomas’ long standing annual vacations with Harlan Crowe, but it is going to get the smae level of roiling outrage from the left, which wants the Supreme Court back. And the right will use this somewhat “so what” offense to claim that what Thomas did was no big deal. Alito made one ill-advised vacation trip which he probably attributed to Leonard Leo, rather than Singer.

    In the 21st century, a lot of our sense of proportion about things has been lost, and that is hugely unfortuanate.

    Appalled (345825)

  353. To me, this story isn’t as bad as Trump trying to work a Moscow real estate deal with a hostile foreign power while running for president, but not by much, because he’s trying to work a real estate deal with non-hostile foreign power while running for president.
    However, if elected, I have no doubt that Trump will look to his financial interests first when it comes to his foreign policy for the Saudi Arabian peninsula, not unlike how it was with Erdogan and Trump’s financial interests in Trump Towers Istanbul.
    Also, at the risk of being repetitive, we still don’t know how much the Saudis are paying Trump for hosting their golf tournaments, and if Jared is getting 2% to run a $2 billion portfolio, then that’s a cool $40 mil per year. But don’t call any of it a bribe. We must be tactful.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  354. A good chunk of the issue would go away if the Supreme Court judges would just fly commercial, like 99.8% of the rest of us.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  355. It’s those circles that judges travel in that get them their appointments in the first place. Higher and higher, in the widening gyre, and it can only be hoped that they no longer hear the falconer.

    nk (d28491)

  356. First Melville, and now Yeats, in a poem about the centre not holding. What a thread.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  357. Last night Star Trek Voyager had an episode from 1998 “Once Upon a Time”
    which had a plot about a second small ship they had built crashing intact into a
    planetoid because of some technobabble and they were buried underneath rock and running
    out of air.

    The episode got its title because originally it was supposed to be mostly about a child
    playing in the holodeck, being like Alice in Wonderland, and the subplot was supposed to
    be the Dominion War but the producer decided he didn’t want both DS9 and VOY to be about
    a war, so it was changed to a crash. And maybe the A plot and the B plot were reversed
    in importance.

    Unlike the current situation they could beam out the whole ship if they got close enough,
    (that is, into transporter range) which they did just in the nick of time.

    It had a machine announcing they are, say, 2 minutes from running out of oxygen
    and they eft final messages.

    But you don’t run out of oxygen that way. Fresh oxygen maybe. But a compartment is bigger
    than a spacesuit or scuba equipment. It would take sometime to suffocate.

    As for the Titan they could lift it up with balloons if someone gets the equipment there.
    The technology was developed based on old Donald Duck cartoon. It was used to right a
    sunk ship and also to take some big piece of the Titanic up from the bottom of the sea

    Tonight the entire starship has to be rescued. This involves going back in time to most
    of the crew It is called “Timeless”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  358. Alito’s prebuttal

    You realize that Propublica is a fraud, in the sense that it denies being an arm of the Demodrat Party. It is the furthest thing from an independent public-interest media group. When they mention that their dear departed RBG did MUCH WORSE I’ll listen to them again.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  359. The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    This should be the motto for 2024.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  360. Among the things that Alito points out is that Mr Singer was never a named party in any case, and only had interests through LLCs. He points out that, not having any knowledge of “his benefactor’s” involvement, it is hard to see how bias is possible.

    This is just part of Schumer’s threatened retaliation for Dobbs. Threat of retaliation against the Court ought to be called what they are. Inciting insurrection.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  361. I don’t care who you are, that’s no way to talk to a Mother of the Reich: https://www.thedailybeast.com/marjorie-taylor-greene-calls-boebert-a-little-bitch-on-the-house-floor

    nk (d28491)

  362. Put them in a room with one knife.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  363. Seems like Marge and Lauren are vying for Chief Mother.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  364. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/21/2023 @ 3:27 pm

    You realize that Propublica is a fraud, in the sense that it denies being an arm of the Demodrat Party. It is the furthest thing from an independent public-interest media group. When they mention that their dear departed RBG did MUCH WORSE I’ll listen to them again.

    It’s obviously a fraud in claiming to be impartial – it’s obviously dishonest but who exactly they are connected to is not clear to me. It doesn’t have to be the Democratic Party as a whole. I’d suspect a faction, but it could even be the DNC.

    Maybe you could tell more by looking at their donors and who else the donors contribute to.

    Sammy Finkelman (0e7228)

  365. There’s a board listen on their website. The only name I recognized was Louis Henry Gates.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  366. As for the Titan they could lift it up with balloons if someone gets the equipment there.

    The Navy is sending a Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System, as well as subject matter experts, the sea service said in a Tuesday afternoon statement.

    The Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System is a “motion compensated lift system designed to provide reliable deep ocean lifting capacity for the recovery of large, bulky, and heavy undersea objects such as aircraft or small vessels,” according to the statement.

    The Navy previously used the salvage system to recover an F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter that crashed into the South China Sea after a ramp strike on USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70), USNI News previously reported. The Navy was able to recover the aircraft from 12,400 feet.

    Source

    Unfortunately, a debris field has been found, though it may be something unrelated.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  367. The debris field near the Titanic may be from the Titanic.

    Has the banging stopped?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  368. Man, 71, charged with setting massive Yosemite park fire initially blamed on climate change

    A 71-year-old man has been arrested for allegedly starting a devastating massive forest fire in Yosemite National Park that was previously thought to have been caused by climate change.

    Edward Fredrick Wackerman of Mariposa, Calif., was busted Friday on suspicion of arson for allegedly igniting the Oak Fire, which destroyed 127 homes, caused thousands of people to evacuate and ravaged nearly 20,000 acres of vegetation in July 2022.

    The suspect is facing charges of suspicion of aggravated arson, arson that causes great bodily injury and arson causing damage or destruction of inhabited structures, the California Department of Forestry said.

    No motive has been release by authorities. It is suspected by some that Wackerman was trying to show the dangers of climate change.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  369. Coast Guard press conference at 12 noon PDT.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  370. A couple things bother me about this OceanGate tragedy:

    1. I would think it would be mandatory to have a backup vehicle on-site just in case of such an accident. Yes vehicles are expensive, but so are people.

    2. I don’t understand how such a vehicle would not be equipped with some way to detect it. I know it is (potentially) 12,500′ under the water but I would think if they know that rescuers will be listening via sonobuoys, design something that would create a standard repeating distress signal that could be honed onto. Granted they may have had a catastrophic power failure, but the emergency stuff should be on a different isolated battery.

    3. Is there something that could have been deployed (again 2.4mi is a long long way) to help reduce the potential search field? I get that there are currents and if they must hold a position, I’m really asking for a bunch of mini AUV’s designed for these huge depths, but it might be assistive.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  371. Yes vehicles are expensive, but so are people.

    Killing two billionaires is really expensive.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  372. I don’t understand how such a vehicle would not be equipped with some way to detect it.

    RF is difficult under water, especially at that range. It’s why submarines need to surface to get detailed messages and rely on ULW for getting short messages underwater.

    However, it can be done, and even triangulated on, with properly coded signally that gives substantial “coding gain” to any receiver. It’s similar to what one does for deep-space communications. It’s not terribly expensive either unless it’s a one-off like Voyager.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  373. I’m really asking for a bunch of mini AUV’s designed for these huge depths,

    They have those. Sonar platforms, mostly. I think they used some here, but the bottom of the ocean has a LOT of clutter….

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  374. I take back 378. RF really won’t work at all. You need a spread spectrum acoustic pinging, probably with a varying (but known) cadence. Since you are going to have sonobuoys and such looking for you, triangulation is probably going to work, too. If you have a solid device, with a good battery, that lives on the outside of the hull, it will probably survive a breakup of the sub.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  375. 1. I would think it would be mandatory to have a backup vehicle on-site just in case of such an accident. Yes vehicles are expensive, but so are people.

    It wouldn’t have a made a difference. Presumably the Titan was crushed on the way down at the time their surface vessel lost contact. A beacon may have survived, but it would not have saved them.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  376. In addition there was no way for the passengers to get out unless someone opened it from the outside. The deepest successful underwater rescue was 1,600 feet, and the only way to recover the workers (it was laying cable on the bottom of the ocean) was to pull up the whole vehicle.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  377. I’m really asking for a bunch of mini AUV’s designed for these huge depths,

    They have those. Sonar platforms, mostly. I think they used some here, but the bottom of the ocean has a LOT of clutter….

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 12:31 pm

    Many of them also have cameras.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  378. All Five on Board Believed Dead After ‘Catastrophic Implosion’

    Earlier in the day, a remote-controlled vehicle located debris from the Titan submersible, including its tail cone, on the ocean floor, about 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic, he said.

    “The debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel,” Admiral Mauger said.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  379. Yes vehicles are expensive, but so are people.

    Killing two billionaires is really expensive.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 12:24 pm

    Sooner or later it will happen to passengers on a Blue Origin or SpaceX rocket. Any system designed by man is doomed to fail at some point; the problem is that man suffers from hubris, which will always come back and bite him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  380. The spare vehicle would be used to help locate the damaged vehicle faster. It obviously could not offload the crew, though perhaps it could be designed to deliver extra oxygen. Yes, there were no hatches, but my thinking would be for the future. Obviously it would require a reimagination of the vehicle with much greater cost.

    I’m not sure that I vehicle designed to inspect the Titanic at 12,500′ would have necessarily imploded. It seemed that most of the talking heads thought they could have been on the bottom but maybe without power.

    The claims of pounding are also interesting. If the hull was carbon fiber and titanium, can you generate appreciable sound?

    “They have those. Sonar platforms, mostly.”

    No, I was thinking to be released from the (reimagined) damaged vessel. If there were sensors on board the damaged vessel that could establish some location, then the mini-vehicle could be used to surface, signal, get retrieved, and vector in the recovery vehicle. Certainly the vehicle likely lost all power but my reimagined vehicle would have redundant batteries for at least minimal emergency operations.

    “Killing two billionaires is really expensive.”

    One more and we would have been set…..

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  381. Implosion probably was at least quick. I think they were warned about structural concerns. Some design group is in trouble.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  382. What’s going to be expensive is the bill OceanGate is going to receive for this operation. They are toast.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  383. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/22/2023 @ 1:39 pm

    Easily the mid-seven figures if not more. These 24/7 operations aren’t cheap.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  384. Sooner or later it will happen to passengers on a Blue Origin or SpaceX rocket. Any system designed by man is doomed to fail at some point; the problem is that man suffers from hubris, which will always come back and bite him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/22/2023 @ 1:10 pm

    Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  385. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 12:24 pm

    Killing two billionaires is <i? really expensive.

    For what it’s worth, they all signed waivers of liability, and the person in charge of the whole project, Stockton Rush, perished with them. He deliberately avoided inspections by sticking to dives only in international waters.

    He said standard things that complied with all regulations are
    really; really safe, but the technology is also frozen. For one thing, he wanted to make it easier to learn how to pilot, for instance by allowing use of a joy stick, which many people were familiar with. He was the pilot here.

    The submersible also contained a 74-year old French undersea and Titanic expert, Paul-Henri Nargeolet, known as PH, hired to be a guide and also to retrieve something, and 3 paying passengers (the two billionaires and the 29-year son of one of them.)

    Hamish Harding, one of the billionaires, wanted to go places and break records.

    He circumnavigated the Earth in 2019, pole to pole and made . He made a dive in 2021 to the deepest point on earth, Challenger Deep, in the Mariana Trench, and he traveled to the edge of space aboard Blue Origin’s New Shepard.

    The Pakistani father and son, Shahzada and Suleman Dawood, have nothing so interesting. Their business is in Pakistan but they live outside the country, and are British citizens.

    The pilot and CEO’s wife, Wendy, is a descendant of Isidor and Ida Straus. Ida refused to go onto a lifeboat with her husband and they both perished in 1912. Isidore was born in 1845. Their grandson, and Wendy’s grandfather Richard Weil Jr., was Macy’s New York president. Wendy Rush is the communications director of OceanGate, and participated in three expeditions in some fashion.

    This was the third dive to the Titanic, and they had raised the price from about $100,000 to $250,000.

    One person, named Chris Brown, backed out the trip and gave up his seat and because he felt that they were “cutting too many corners.” It could be not the exact same corners that caused the destruction of the sub, but that could still be related because he may have sensed a certain approach to doing things.

    https://nypost.com/2023/06/21/thrill-seeker-quit-titanic-trip-over-corner-cutting-fears

    …But he grew alarmed when he saw how OceanGate’s 21-foot Titan submersible was made up of off-the-shelf components.

    “I found out they used old scaffolding poles for the sub’s ballast — and its controls were based on computer game-style controllers,” the shocked would-be explorer told the UK paper….“Eventually I emailed them and said, ‘I’m no longer able to go on this thing,’” Brown told the Sun, fearing OceanGate was “cutting too many corners.”

    “I asked for a refund after being less than convinced.”

    He had paid a $10,000 deposit.

    One thing Stockton Rush showed off to a CBS News reporter was a gray device that appeared to be a Logitech G Wireless Gamepad F710, a third-party device released in 2010 which now sells for $40 or less.

    But I’d suspect metal fatigue, if it simply imploded.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  386. Many of them also have cameras.

    It’s pretty dark and cold.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  387. the problem is that man suffers from hubris, which will always come back and bite him.

    Something visitors to the Unsinkable Titanic should understand.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  388. But I’d suspect metal fatigue, if it simply imploded.

    The window wasn’t rated past 1400m (4500 feet). If it even cracked, or the seal broke, it was all over in an instant. 6000 lbs/square inch is a pretty quick death.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  389. They are toast.

    The families of the dead will break those liability waivers, too. Fraudulent representations. And even if they don’t pay damages or rescue costs, they have no vessel and no customers.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  390. I also doubt that they’ll be able to rely on any corporate veil.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  391. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/21/2023 @ 6:02 am

    But if Chairman Xi is going to whine that Biden accurately stated that the ChiCom dictator is a dictator, never mind.

    And he did that as part of a larger riff in which he was exonerating him for the spy balloon.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65969802

    “The reason why Xi Jinping got very upset, in terms of when I shot that balloon down with two box cars full of spy equipment in it, was he didn’t know it was there,” Mr Biden said at the event on Tuesday.

    “That’s a great embarrassment for dictators. When they didn’t know what happened,” he added.

    What?! He’s not a dictator?

    Then who was his competition for the job? And why was a former leader, Hu Jintao, removed from the last party Congress when he wanted to see what was written on a document he did not get? (he could have disrupted the proceedings) And who else in China could the United States talk to?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  392. No, I was thinking to be released from the (reimagined) damaged vessel

    A sophisticated sound maker is really all you need. If it has known cadence and frequency patterns, sonar can find a range and a bearing, if only by triangulation.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  393. 394. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 2:18 pm

    The window wasn’t rated past 1400m (4500 feet). If it even cracked, or the seal broke, it was all over in an instant. 6000 lbs/square inch is a pretty quick death.

    How is it nobody paid attention to the window?

    They figured it was all right since it had survived previous dives?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  394. Many of them also have cameras.

    It’s pretty dark and cold.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 2:14 pm

    Unmanned remote vehicles carry their own lights (as we have seen from recent new images of the Titanic wreck), and temperature is no concern.

    By the way, notice you can’t spell Titanic without Titan?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  395. Rust shooting: Prosecutors charge armorer with evidence tampering

    Prosecutors have charged a Rust film armorer with evidence tampering in connection to the fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, US media report.

    Hannah Gutierrez-Reed has already been charged with involuntary manslaughter.

    She will face an additional charge in relation to “the transfer of narcotics to another person”, prosecutors said.
    ……….
    In court filings, prosecutors allege Ms Gutierrez-Reed transferred narcotics to another person on 21 October 2021, the day Hutchins was killed, in order to “prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of herself”, Reuters reported.

    Last week, in separate court filings, prosecutors claimed Ms Gutierrez-Reed was likely hungover during the day of the shooting because she drank alcohol and smoked marijuana in the evenings while the film was being made.

    Ms Gutierrez-Reed’s lawyer, meanwhile, has said prosecutors have mishandled the case and resorted to “character assassination”. …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  396. U.S. Navy Heard What It Believed Was Titan Implosion Days Ago

    A top secret military acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard what the U.S. Navy suspected was the Titan submersible implosion hours after the vehicle began its mission, officials involved in the search said.

    The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after the submersible’s disappearance Sunday, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  397. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/san-francisco-walgreens-locked-up-shelves-ripped-off-by-thieves/

    It’s almost like when you encourage something you get more of it. I hope they choke on their own filth as the city becomes Snake Pliskin’d.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  398. How is it nobody paid attention to the window?

    They did. A peer-review group Marine Technology Society’s (MTS) committee on manned submersibles told the Titanic operator that there was deep concern over his operation, and he needed to seek a safety review. But the now-dead owner refused.

    In a 2022 interview, Rush told CBS News, “At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed. Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything.”

    n 2018, OceanGate’s director of marine operations, David Lochridge, composed a report documenting safety concerns he had about the Titan. In court documents, Lochridge said that he had urged the company to have the Titan assessed and certified by an agency, but OceanGate had declined to do so, citing an unwillingness to pay.[49] He also said that the transparent viewport on its forward end was only certified to reach a depth of 1,300 m (4,300 ft), only a third of the depth required to reach the Titanic.[50] Lochridge was also concerned that OceanGate would not perform nondestructive testing on the vessel’s hull before undertaking manned dives, and alleged that he was “repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Titan_submersible_incident

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  399. In a 2022 interview, Rush told CBS News, “At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed. Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything.”

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/22/2023 @ 8:33 pm

    In other news, Icarus bristled when somebody harshed his buzz by telling him that the sun would melt the wax in his wings.

    norcal (8b5267)

  400. RFK Jr.: Russia’s was a “good faith” invasion.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  401. “Killing two billionaires is really expensive.”

    I think additional research is warranted.

    Davethulhu (f37fbd)

  402. A news story seems the problem really was the hull – it was not made up out of titanium.

    https://www.insider.com/titan-carbon-fiber-hull-designed-made-6-week-deadline-report-2023-6

    But a stand-out feature of the Titan is its combination carbon fiber and titanium construction, a departure from the standard practice of fully titanium submersibles.

    (it could be though he problem was also with the window. Was the window replaced since the last trip down?)

    https://stonking.com/news/titans-tale-understanding-the-risks-of-titanium-and-carbon-fiber-in-submersibles-20230622

    At the heart of the investigation is a question of material integrity. The Titan, like many modern submersibles, was constructed from a combination of carbon fiber and titanium. These materials are chosen for their strength and lightness, desirable traits when designing a vessel that must withstand the crushing pressures of the deep. However, the incident raises questions about potential risks associated with these materials.

    There’s a possibility that the carbon fiber, a crucial component of the Titan, underwent a structural failure leading to a hull rupture. This could have been a result of a flaw within the material itself or possibly inadequate testing. The immense pressure at the depths where the Titan operated is equivalent to the weight of the Eiffel Tower pressing down on the vessel, making the potential for a stonking implosion due to material failure a very real risk.

    The investigation also turns a critical eye towards the joints between the carbon fiber and the titanium. These areas of intersection are potential weak spots that require meticulous examination to ensure they withstand the rigors of deep-sea exploration.

    The conundrum of the Titan’s demise is not only a technical one. There’s an added layer of complexity because there’s no established protocol for such investigations with a submersible. While it remains unclear which agency will spearhead the investigation, what is clear is that the results will have far-reaching implications for future deep-sea expeditions.

    It’s not very clear to me, but it seems the hull collapsed while they were still on the way down, but after they had lost communication.

    Sammy Finkelman (7b754a)


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