Patterico's Pontifications

6/9/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:58 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

Loose lips sink ships and all that:

Former President Donald Trump acknowledged on tape in a 2021 meeting that he had retained “secret” military information that he had not declassified, according to a transcript of the audio recording obtained by CNN.

“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” Trump says, according to the transcript.

CNN obtained the transcript of a portion of the meeting where Trump is discussing a classified Pentagon document about attacking Iran. In the audio recording, which CNN previously reported was obtained by prosecutors, Trump says that he did not declassify the document he’s referencing, according to the transcript…The transcript of the audio recording suggests that Trump is showing the document he’s discussing to those in the room. Several sources have told CNN the recording captures the sound of paper rustling, as if Trump was waving the document around, though is not clear if it was the actual Iran document.

“Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this,” Trump says at one point, according to the transcript. “This was done by the military and given to me.”

Trump was complaining in the meeting about Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley. The meeting occurred shortly after The New Yorker published a story by Susan Glasser detailing how, in the final days of Trump’s presidency, Milley instructed the Joint Chiefs to ensure Trump issued no illegal orders and that he be informed if there was any concern.

“Well, with Milley – uh, let me see that, I’ll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn’t that amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him,” Trump says, according to the transcript. “They presented me this – this is off the record, but – they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn’t done by me, this was him.”

“All sorts of stuff – pages long, look. Wait a minute, let’s see here. I just found, isn’t that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this.”

“Secret” and “confidential” are two levels of classification for sensitive government documents.

Second news item

Trump attorneys Jim Trusty and John Rowley step down:

Trusty and Rowley also said they will no longer represent Trump in a pending federal criminal probe into his efforts to overturn his loss in the 2020 election to President Joe Biden.

Third news item

Mitt Romney, consistently reasonable and thoughtful::

“Like all Americans, Mr. Trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The government has the burden of proving its charges beyond a reasonable doubt and securing a unanimous verdict by a South Florida jury.

“By all appearances, the Justice Department and special counsel have exercised due care, affording Mr. Trump the time and opportunity to avoid charges that would not generally have been afforded to others.

“Mr. Trump brought these charges upon himself by not only taking classified documents, but by refusing to simply return them when given numerous opportunities to do so.

“These allegations are serious and if proven, would be consistent with his other actions offensive to the national interest, such as withholding defensive weapons from Ukraine for political reasons and failing to defend the Capitol from violent attack and insurrection.”

Fourth news item

More aid to Ukraine as the spring offensive is underway:

Today, the Department of Defense (DoD) announced a new security assistance package, underscoring the unwavering U.S. support for Ukraine. This package, which totals up to $2.1 billion and includes critical air defense and ammunition capabilities, is being provided under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI)…

The capabilities in this announcement include:

Additional munitions for Patriot air defense systems;
HAWK air defense systems and missiles;
105mm and 203mm artillery rounds;
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems;
Laser-guided rocket system munitions;
Support for training, maintenance, and sustainment activities.

Fifth news item

Brutal and heartbreaking account from Ukraine:

Winter was hell. Now a new hell has begun.

You know how psychologically, if you are hit once, it hurts. The second time you get hit, it doesn’t hurt as much. And the third time, when you are hit like that, it seems to be the norm.

But then a new constellation of events forms: your friends and relatives are fighting at the front line, and you begin to lose them. A close friend died before the New Year. It was a time of crazy grief for me. A new emotional phase begins, when you can’t understand why. You saw death in the beginning, but now it touches you directly.

Before, just a few rockets came down during air raids. Now, the Russians have developed their tactics to intimidate civilians. We face near-nightly barrages around Kyiv. As soon as the attacks start, all the car alarms go off. We wake up to horrible explosions. You watch the huge red balls flying, and you don’t know where they’re headed. On one night last month,¹ for example, the Russians launched six Kinzhal missiles, nine Kalibr-type cruise missiles, three anti-aircraft ballistic missiles, six Iranian suicide Shahed drones and three Orlan-type reconnaissance UAVs. During a recent attack, my balcony doors were blown out by the shock wave.

When the raids start, we all run to the basements. Sleepy children are picked up by their mothers and carried. We sit there for three or four hours. By then, it’s morning. You come back to the house, have a coffee, take a shower, and go to work. The first time, you can do it. By the third day, you don’t have the strength anymore.

Everybody talks about stress, all the time. It’s a pain we share. We had more or less already adapted to the lack of electricity and such things. We took precautions; we bought generators and some other equipment. We warmed up in each others’ apartments so there was as little space as possible to heat. But now that a more psychological phase of the war has begun, we hardly sleep at night, and we still have to go to work during the day. In these conditions, you come to an emotional dead end. You don’t understand what to do next.

Everyone tries to think about something else. At work, I look at my colleagues, and we have no energy at all. The management suggested that we should all take five days off to go to the mountains somewhere—maybe the Carpathians or Poland, where we won’t hear the explosions every night. We can’t go for a break in the woods closer to home, because they have all been laid with mines.

For many, our nervous system is at its limit. I take sedatives both for sleep problems and psychological problems. The most horrifying thing, it turns out: you can’t live without a future. You live and you don’t know what awaits you. You don’t know how to organize your daily routines, or how to plan anything. You have no future, and this makes life eerie and terrifying.

Sixth news item

Bipartisan concern in Congress over potential LIV/PGA merger:

The PGA Tour’s planned merger with Saudi-backed LIV Golf has sparked a surprise bout of bipartisan harmony on Capitol Hill: Conservatives and liberals are uniting to thrash the deal.

Some lawmakers are calling for congressional investigations. Others are looking to the Justice Department and other federal regulators to first explore the case for blocking the move on antitrust grounds. Only after regulators act, they say, is there likely to be appetite for Congress to enter the picture — even as a majority of its members are openly wary of the deal.

Scores of members of Congress have criticized the golf mega-merger, warning that it would help consolidate the Saudi government’s U.S. influence despite deep bipartisan concerns about its human rights record.

What a difference a money makes:

Many are also calling PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan a hypocrite, noting that he said one year ago, “I think you’d have to be living under a rock to not know there are significant implications” to players aligning themselves with Saudi Arabia.

Seventh news item

Texas putting buoy barrier in Rio Grande:

Texas is set to deploy a buoy barrier in the Rio Grande as part of plans to deter migrant crossings, Gov. Greg Abbott announced Thursday.

He shared the news after he signed six bills related to border security. Funding will come from $5.1 billion approved by the state legislature to secure the border.

“What we’re doing right now, we’re securing the border at the border,” Abbott said. “What these buoys will allow us to do is to prevent people from even getting to the border.”

The first 1,000 feet of buoys will be deployed at Eagle Pass, which Steve McCraw, director of the state’s Department of Public Safety, called “the center of gravity for smuggling.” The first deployment will cost under $1 million and will begin “pretty much immediately.” Officials did not share a more specific number for the cost of the barrier.

Officials hope the buoys will act as a deterrent to prevent migrants from entering the water. While there are ways to overcome the buoys, which can range in size, it will take a lot of effort and specialized skills.

Eighth news item

House reaction to Trump being indicted is about what you would expect:

For comparison, go back and read Mitt Romney’s response (#3).

Ninth news item

The federal indictment against Donald Trump has just been unsealed. You can read it in full here.

The charges:

The 44-page indictment filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida alleges that Trump “endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal retention of classified documents.” The indictment names Walt Nauta, an aide to Trump who served as a White House valet, as a co-conspirator.

The indictment lists 37 counts in all against Trump:

31 counts of willful retention of classified documents
1 count of conspiracy to obstruct justice
1 count of withholding a document or record
1 count of corruptly concealing a document or record
1 count of concealing a document in a federal investigation
1 count of scheme to conceal and one count of making false statements and representations.

At least four of the charges carry a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.

Have a good weekend.

–Dana

715 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (560c99)

  2. Summary of Trump Indictment:

    Counts 1-31: Willful Retention of National Defense Information 18 USC 793(e)

    Count 32: Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice 18 USC 1512(k) with Waltine Nauta, a Trump aide at MAL

    Counts 33-34: Withholding A Document or Record 18 USC 1512(b)(2)(A) 2) with Waltine Nauta

    Count 35: Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation 1 8USC 1519, 2) with Waltine Nauta

    Count 36: Scheme to Conceal 18 USC 1001( a)( 1), 2) with Waltine Nauta

    Count 37: False Statements and Representations 18 USC 1001(a)(2) , 2) Trump only

    Count 38: False Statements and Representations 18 USC 1001(a)(2) , 2) Waltine Nauta only

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:01 am

    From the previous thread, but revised and updated.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive

    President Joe Biden was allegedly paid $5 million by an executive of the Ukrainian natural gas firm Burisma Holdings, where his son Hunter Biden sat on the board, a confidential human source told the FBI during a June 2020 interview, sources familiar told Fox News Digital.

    The sources briefed Fox News Digital on the contents of the FBI-generated FD-1023 form alleging a criminal bribery scheme between then-Vice President Joe Biden and a foreign national that involved influence over U.S. policy decisions.

    Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.

    I think that’s worthy of a top post.

    NJRob (762bec)

  4. Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.

    I think that’s worthy of a top post.

    NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:18 am

    Outside of the allegation, what is the supporting evidence?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. The Saudis are indeed awful, but I find it kind of funny that everybody is up in arms over their influence in the PGA, considering that wealthy citizens of repressive Arab states own a number of venerable soccer clubs throughout Europe, and that Saudi Arabian soccer teams are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to sign international stars like Cristiano Ronaldo. Don’t think for one moment that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL or any other country wouldn’t allow some Middle Eastern oligarch to purchase a North American franchise if the price was right.

    JVW (7d171f)

  6. Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.

    I think that’s worthy of a top post.

    There is time, NJ Rob. Let’s allow the story develop some more. Hunter Biden has been ordered to appear in court in Arkansas regarding his attempt to have his child support payments lowered, and this might unlock some more information as to his business dealings and the potential that his old man had a finger in the pie.

    JVW (92f7d2)

  7. “Secret” and “confidential” are two levels of classification for sensitive government documents.

    I think that Trump can be excused from knowing the different levels of classification. He isn’t interested in details unless they are petty.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  8. Officials hope the buoys will act as a deterrent to prevent migrants from entering the water. While there are ways to overcome the buoys, which can range in size, it will take a lot of effort and specialized skills.

    How many days before a child drowns caught up in the buoys?

    Did you know they put liver-destryong acetaminophen in narcotic pain meds to deter addicts from abusing them? No, really.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  9. Brutal and heartbreaking account from Ukraine

    It’s the Blitz, all over again. I think that Russia should consider how many times over that bombing was returned to Germany.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  10. Trusty and Rowley also said they will no longer represent Trump in a pending federal criminal probe into his efforts to overturn his loss in the 2020 election to President Joe Biden.

    Shorter: their bill remains unpaid.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  11. I think that’s worthy of a top post.

    It would be if there were actual evidence, but it’s still allegation only.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  12. There is time, NJ Rob. Let’s allow the story develop some more. Hunter Biden has been ordered to appear in court in Arkansas regarding his attempt to have his child support payments lowered, and this might unlock some more information as to his business dealings and the potential that his old man had a finger in the pie.

    JVW (92f7d2) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:25 am

    I desire equal justice. The same dissemination tye Steele allegations got.

    NJRob (762bec)

  13. Jack Smith was the soul of brevity.

    PGA+LIV=GREED.

    The Saudis typically advance their interests in one of two ways—by murdering people or by raining unspeakable amounts of cash on them. Fortunately for America’s professional golfers, LIV chose the latter. Backed by funding from the Saudi sovereign wealth fund (value: $620 billion and counting), the new league hired golf legend Greg Norman to serve as its commissioner and lured away superstars Phil Mickelson, Brooks Koepka, and Bryson DeChambeau, among dozens of others, to play its tour.

    Doing so was a political endeavor as much as an entertainment initiative. The word “sportswashing” has been used to describe what the Saudis are up to by gaining a financial foothold in popular Western sports like golf and soccer. (In 2021 the sovereign wealth fund led a takeover of the British soccer club Newcastle United and has begun to entice European megastars to sign with teams based in the kingdom.) A regime notorious for gross human-rights abuses, grisly assassinations, and laying waste to its southern neighbor has decided to try to buy Western goodwill via a very—very—expensive sports-related PR push.
    […]
    The deal is being described as a “partnership” but it’s effectively an acquisition of the PGA by LIV. The governor of the Saudi sovereign wealth fund will chair the board of directors that oversees the merged tour; he’s vowing to invest “billions” more into the sport, which will inevitably mean more seats on the board and greater Saudi control.

    This part is also relevant.

    The NBA has done something similar but not to the same degree. The Chinese Communist Party doesn’t own the league but it has successfully co-opted it by threatening to block its access to the Chinese market if it doesn’t hew to Beijing’s orthodoxy on sensitive political questions. That’s how we ended up with normally outspoken “socially conscious” NBA figures like LeBron James, Steve Kerr, and Gregg Popovich either biting their tongues or whitewashing the crackdown in Hong Kong in 2019 after one team’s general manager expressed solidarity with protesters there. China used its financial leverage to muzzle influential Americans who might otherwise have called attention to its abuses.

    That’s what the Saudi “sportswashing” scheme aims to do too. And it too is succeeding.

    Last year Mickelson told a biographer that the Saudis are “scary motherf— to get involved with” and that they killed Jamal “Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay.” All true, but LIV isn’t paying him to tell the truth. Rather the opposite: They’re paying him to serve as a de facto ambassador to Americans on behalf of the Saudi government in between occasional golf tournaments. Those comments amounted to dereliction of one of his core duties.

    Mickelson eventually figured that out and apologized for his entirely accurate, righteous criticism.

    The NBA ruined professional basketball for me, after the Sonics were undeservedly relocated to OK City, followed by the league’s capitulations to the ChiComs, and the PGA just ruined professional golf for me. I’ll be taking my sports entertainment choices elsewhere. Go Seahawks!

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  14. I desire equal justice. The same dissemination tye Steele allegations got.

    NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:19 pm

    The bribery allegation should be the centerpiece of Biden’s impeachment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. From the start, Jack Smith’s indictment pops…

    4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.

    5. The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP’s presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club-including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.

    6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others, as follows:

    a. In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey (“The Bedminster Club”), during an audio-recorded meeting with a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a “plan of attack” that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was “highly confidential” and “secret.” TRUMP also said, “as president I could have declassified it,” and, “Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”

    b. In August or September 2021, at The Bedminster Club, TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  16. I desire equal justice.

    Sure you do, Rob, but how about you start with actual evidence. All you have so far is an anonymous source making a claim. If it is established that Biden was enriched by some questionable actors while vice president, then I’ll support his impeachment.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  17. This also gives a new meaning to bathroom reading.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  18. This also gives a new meaning to bathroom reading.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:14 pm

    Too funny!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  19. I’ve updated the unsealed indictment post.

    Dana (560c99)

  20. Oh hey, but by allowing repressive Arab states entry into the western sporting elite we can “help steer [them] toward more progressive policies.”

    Does that sound like a load of bullshit? Because that is the justification that MIT and plenty of other western institutions of higher education use for taking money from repressive regimes to use for research purposes.

    JVW (e938a2)

  21. Mar-a-Lago member: “You can really go anywhere,” including where documents were supposedly stored

    ……..
    “Once you are on property, you can really go anywhere. I do,” the member said when asked about security in various parts of the club. “Being a private club, they really can’t stop you from going into the public spaces.”
    ……..
    This member said that the White and Gold ballroom — one of the rooms some of the boxes were kept, according to the indictment — is easily accessible to any guest.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  22. Soccer and golf, two of the most boring sports in the world.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. Paul,

    The anonymous sourcing and scandalous reading of the Steele trash didn’t bother you.

    NJRob (762bec)

  24. Along with Khashoggi’s assassination, “progressive policies,” there is also the Saudi attempt to drill for more water in drought-stricken Arizona.

    Dana (560c99)

  25. JVW,

    MIT and other leftist universities are oppressive on their own. They only permit leftist and anti-western thought. It’s logical they’d partner with another regime that’s hostile to freedom.

    NJRob (762bec)

  26. Another Fox (and Trump-Adjacent) Employee Ousted:

    Raj Shah, the Fox Corp. brand protection executive who pushed Fox News in an even more pro-Trump direction after the 2020 election, has left the company.

    “Raj brought talent and creativity to his role at Fox,” Fox spokesperson Brian Nick told CNN on Thursday. “We appreciate his service and wish him the best on his next endeavor.”

    Shah, who left the company in May, had previously served in the Trump administration as a senior communications official. ……

    A cache of internal Fox communications brought to light in Dominion Voting Systems’ massive defamation lawsuit against the right-wing network included several messages from Shah.
    …….
    “Both Donald Trump and Newsmax have taken active roles in promoting attacks on Fox News,” he wrote (to Fox Corp. CEO Lachlan Murdoch, Fox News CEO Suzanne Scott and Fox Chief Legal Officer Viet Dinh) . “Positive impressions of Fox News among our viewers dropped precipitously after Election Day to the lowest levels we’ve ever seen.”

    When a Fox News reporter later fact-checked a press conference held by Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani and ally Sidney Powell, Shah angrily texted a colleague.

    “This is the kinda s—t that will kill us,” he wrote (in a text message about a Fox News reporter fact-checking) a press conference held by Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani and ally Sidney Powel (sic), according to legal filings. “What a f—king mess. We cover it wall to wall and then we burn that down with all the skepticism.”
    ###########

    It isn’t only CNN that is having problems with its direction.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  27. The anonymous sourcing and scandalous reading of the Steele trash didn’t bother you.

    You’re lying again, Rob.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  28. Good grief. In Item 75 of the indictment, the FBI found 102 classified documents*, of which 27 were found in Trump’s office. Out of that 27, six were Top Secret (which I assume are not allowed to be seen outside a SCIF), eighteen were Secret and three were Confidential.

    * There’s no point anymore in saying they’re “documents with classified markings”, a phrase that leaves open the possibility that they could have been declassified, but after Trump said on tape in mid-2021 that, “As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” that possibility is no more, IMO.
    His declassification claims are a hoax, a Declassification Hoax.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  29. In looking at the various counts, starting on page 38, the first few caught my eye…

    Count 3: “Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States, with handwritten annotation in black marker.”
    I’m assuming “black marker” refers to the kind of fat Sharpie that Trump used to edit the path of a hurricane.

    Count 5: “Document dated June 2020 concerning nuclear capabilities of a foreign country.”
    That type of document is protected by statute, therefore cannot be declassified by a president.

    Count 7: “Document dated October 21, 2018, concerning communications with a leader of a foreign country.”

    Count 8: “Document dated October 4, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country.”

    Count 9: “Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country.”
    Is this Milley’s document about Iran?

    Count 10: “Document dated November 2017 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country.”

    There’s too many others to cut-and-paste, but any count with “Top Secret” and “NOFORN” are serious business.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  30. I think that Trump can be excused from knowing the different levels of classification. He isn’t interested in details unless they are petty.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:35 am

    Spot on, and funny!

    norcal (8b5267)

  31. Debt Ceiling Vote Blowback:

    ……………..
    (Speaker Kevin) McCarthy, who enraged ultraconservative Republicans by striking a compromise with President Biden to suspend the debt limit, has yet to face a bid to depose him, as some hard-right members have threatened. But the rebellion has left him, at least for now, as speaker in name only, deprived of a governing majority.

    “House Leadership couldn’t Hold the Line,” Representative Matt Gaetz, Republican of Florida and a leader of the rebellion, tweeted on Wednesday. “Now we Hold the Floor.”

    After being forced for the second day in a row to cancel votes as they haggled privately with members of the House Freedom Caucus to get them to relent, leaders told Republican lawmakers on Wednesday evening that they were scrapping votes for the remainder of the week. In a remarkable act of intraparty aggression, about a dozen rebels ground the chamber to a halt on Tuesday by siding with Democrats to defeat a procedural measure needed to allow legislation to move forward, and business cannot resume until they back down and vote with their own party.

    It underscored the severe consequences Mr. McCarthy is facing for muscling through a debt ceiling agreement with the White House that contained only a fraction of the spending cuts Republicans had demanded. ……..
    ……….
    “There was an agreement in January and it was violated in the debt ceiling bill,” said Representative Ken Buck, Republican of Colorado. He said the conversations with Mr. McCarthy on Wednesday were to discuss “how to restore some of that agreement.”

    In the meantime, some rank-and-file Republicans lamented the spectacle — “political incontinence,” Representative Steve Womack of Arkansas called it — and predicted a major backlash against their party in 2024 if they did not get themselves in order soon.
    ………
    ………(McCarthy tried) to defang his biggest detractors by rewarding them with committee chairmanships and powerful positions on the Rules Committee. That approach appeared to have worked, until Mr. McCarthy, knowing that the right wing would not provide the votes to pass a debt limit bill, worked with Democrats to push through the legislation just days before a default.
    ………
    It was not clear exactly what the members of the Freedom Caucus were demanding in exchange for surrendering control of the floor.
    ………
    And Mr. Gaetz made it clear that demands were secondary to forcing Mr. McCarthy to make a defining decision — whether he wanted to pass bipartisan bills with Democrats or have the support of the far right.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  32. More About Mr. Gaetz:

    The House Ethics Committee has restarted an investigation into Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), the latest legal problem for the controversial Florida Republican, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter.
    ……..
    The Ethics Committee announced in April 2021 that it had begun a preliminary probe into Gaetz. Here’s former Rep. Ted Deutch (D-Fla.) and the late Rep. Jackie Walorski (R-Ind.), who were chair and ranking member of the Ethics Committee at that time:

    “The Committee is aware of public allegations that Representative Matt Gaetz may have engaged in sexual misconduct and/or illicit drug use, shared inappropriate images or videos on the House floor, misused state identification records, converted campaign funds to personal use, and/or accepted a bribe, improper gratuity, or impermissible gift, in violation of House Rules, laws, or other standards of conduct.”

    But the Ethics Committee later disclosed that it had deferred its investigation at the request of the Justice Department. ……Since DOJ didn’t charge Gaetz and is no longer scrutinizing him, the Ethics Committee is free to conduct its own investigation.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. Yes, a menial aide also was indicted:

    https://www.newser.com/story/336335/in-mar-a-lago-case-one-new-indictment-and-2-ex-lawyers.html

    Trump Valet Also Gets Indicted

    Aide Walt Nauta allegedly moved boxes of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago

    … A “person familiar with the matter” confirms Nauta’s indictment to the Wall Street Journal, which notes that Nauta has been a target of the probe for some time “after he was seen on surveillance footage moving boxes from a storage room before and after investigators issued a May subpoena seeking the return of all government documents in Trump’s possession.” Nauta has reportedly told investigators that Trump had instructed him to do so.

    The case against the two men has been assigned to Trump-appointed US District Judge Aileen Cannon. Cannon was the judge who OK’d the Trump team request in 2022 to appoint an outside “special master” to review the classified documents seized from the Mar-a-Lago estate in South Florida….

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  34. Most favorable judge, favorable jury

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  35. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:57 pm

    but after Trump said on tape in mid-2021 that, “As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” that possibility is no more, IMO.
    His declassification claims are a hoax, a Declassification Hoax.

    Trump lately said they were declassified automatically – i.e. without him knowing it,

    Sammy Finkelman (25fa75)

  36. That is, treting themm as if they were not classified, declassified them. All these documents were in his possession before noon Jan 20, 2021

    Sammy Finkelman (25fa75)

  37. Dana, I know a lot of people get all snarky and nasty about Mitt Romney. I don’t. That was a good statement he made.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  38. Mitt Romney is the honorable Senator from Utah. The other Senator is Mike Lee, who infamously compared Trump to Captain Moroni, a heroic figure in the Book of Mormon.

    If Utahns choose a Trumpy nominee for Senator over Romney next year, then they will be certifiably nuts.

    norcal (8b5267)

  39. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:34 pm

    More on the Republican Rebellion:

    ………
    Behind closed doors on Wednesday, (Majority Leader Steve Scalise (R-La.) and Majority Whip Tom Emmer (R-Minn.)) briefed about a dozen Republicans — mostly battleground-seat members — on their plan to take up two bills next week: Rep. Andrew Clyde’s (R-Ga.) bid to nix a Biden administration gun regulation and a separate proposal bill to strengthen limits on taxpayer funding for abortion.

    The meeting didn’t go smoothly.

    “Why the hell are we doing this?” Rep. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.) asked Majority Leader Steve Scalise (R-La.) and Majority Whip Tom Emmer (R-Minn.), according to two House Republicans familiar with the meeting.

    Things got more heated from there, the two Republicans added: Rep. Michelle Fischbach (R-Minn.) confronted Mace for taking to TV and blasting other Republicans for their positions on abortion. Mace responded that the party is losing the battle for public opinion on the issue, arguing that tacking further to the right would hurt the centrists who handed the GOP the majority.
    ………..
    Some Republicans are privately speculating that their centrists could mount their own rebellion by aligning with Democrats to delay a final vote on the abortion bill — exploiting a maneuver that the minority party in the House almost always attempts to no avail. Any kerfuffle that results may not happen next week, however: In a reversal, the abortion funding bill was not included on the GOP’s list of bills for the week ahead.
    ………..
    At the heart of the discontent is conservative unrest over McCarthy’s debt-limit deal-making with President Joe Biden. Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.), who leads the Trump-aligned Freedom Caucus, said Thursday that his members feel that McCarthy’s promises during January’s speaker election were “significantly breached” during the speaker’s talks with Biden.
    ……….
    ………(A)fter McCarthy’s debt deal landed support from two-thirds of the House GOP, the hard-right opposition metastasized into a floor rebellion this week. Which leaves most of the conference aggravated that roughly a dozen hardliners can successfully neuter their own party leaders.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  40. according to two House Republicans familiar with the meeting.

    How does this quote come into play with anonymously sourced articles?:

    Outside of the allegation, what is the supporting evidence?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:21 am

    BuDuh (30a11d)

  41. Fred and Mary Anne should never have let Donnie hang around that Hillary girl and that Biden hooligan. They were a bad influence.

    Nancy Sinatra has a song that’s near perfect for Trump’s situation, and it’s not due to anybody but Trump.

    nk (2a8bc8)

  42. Step 1, if you believe it’s possible that Biden bribed Burisma to get rid of Shokin, then show that there was an active or pending investigation that Shokin was engaged in against Burisma. If you cannot show that, then what sense does the blackmail make?

    The people who most talked about the Steele Dossier….and the infamous pee tape….were those who exhaustively mocked it. Most people took it for the raw, unsubstantiated data that it was. The legitimate concerns about Trump included things like his planned Moscow Trump Tower….and how it would get financed….and the deep Russian ties of Manafort who was running Trump’s campaign.

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  43. there is also the Saudi attempt to drill for more water in drought-stricken Arizona.

    To be fair, a lot of Americans have been doing that, too.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  44. You’re lying again, Rob.

    This is how we have fights. Just ignore him if you don’t think he’s being honest. This is just bound to get another flame war started. Is that what you want?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  45. which I assume are not allowed to be seen outside a SCIF

    No, SCI material must reside within a SCIF. Not all TS material is SCI.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  46. Here’s a guide to classifications:

    Confidential: This type of plane can carry nuclear weapons.
    Secret: This type of plane can carry 12 nuclear weapons of the following types…
    Top Secret: This plane here is carrying 12 100kT nuclear gravity bombs.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  47. Dana, I know a lot of people get all snarky and nasty about Mitt Romney. I don’t. That was a good statement he made.

    The country would be richer, far less divided and the world a much safer place if Mitt Romney had completed his second term in 2020. Our Covid response would have been rational and measured instead of the stampede they made of it with Trump at the helm.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  48. Kevin,

    I’m not going to follow up. I’m just reminding people that in the past had no problem going after Trump with innuendo and baseless remarks (they acted like Adam Schiff was a truthteller) have now changed their tune because it’s Biden. That says it all.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  49. Rip,

    supporting documentation comes from druggie Biden’s laptop and druggie Biden’s business partners. Or did you forget?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  50. Trump lately said they were declassified automatically – i.e. without him knowing it.

    He said that after the search warrant, Sammy. When he thought he was getting away with it, he had a different story.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  51. Gov Sununu just had a bizarre interview on CNN where he acknowledged the seriousness of the indictment, but then used 80% of his time bashing the DOJ. SMH. His point was that the DoJ had to go on TV and explain to the public the difference between this prosecution and what went on with Hillary or what is currently still going on with Biden. That was extraordinary….not that the public needs educating…they do, but that he believed that it was the job of the DoJ. No…absolutely not. The DoJ should not wade into politics and have to explain the actions of other people in DoJ. That would be awful. Stop.

    That job should fall on media and the GOP leadership to explain to its voters what the difference is…ala Chris Christie, Mitt Romney, maybe Larry Hogan. In fact, Gov Sununu should have taken his 6min to do some of that himself…and establish his own record. I get what he was saying: most people don’t dig in and really try to understand this stuff. They are busy working hard, raising kids, and worrying about inflation and unfair trade. But Sununu made it sound like the DoJ has to sell itself that it is being fair; however, it does this by not making this case about each and every other case. The details ARE different…and political leaders need to honestly articulate that to their political supporters. Otherwise WTF?!

    I like Chris Sununu. I think he’s on team normal. I was a bit annoyed by his winking over at team abnormal. Chris Christie did a much better job today.

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  52. If I were Jack Smith, I’d file a motion to strike Judge Cannon from the case.
    Her bias in the prior Trump case and the rebuke from the 11th Circuit should be enough to question her objectivity.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  53. Since this is an open thread, I thought I’d remark on how the ChiCom-friendly, culture-degrading Disney changed the ending to the first Indiana Jones movie. They thought they’d get away with it!

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  54. Huh.
    There are 27 judges in the Southern District Court in Florida, so there was a 4% chance that Cannon’s name would come up.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  55. @55, PUTIN!!!!!!!

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  56. Trump has called on his “MAGAdonians” to show up at the “Trump Document Hoax” rally at the US Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday. The Proud Boys are also circulating the announcement on social media. We’ve already seen this movie. I suspect law enforcement will be out in full force.

    Also, at a rally tonight:

    Kari Lake speaking in Georgia tonight says to get Trump Merrick Garland will have to go through 75 million Americans “and most of us are card-carrying members of the NRA. That’s not a threat, that’s a public service announcement.” Standing ovation.

    For obvious reasons, this is all troubling. Trump will ratchet up the anger and resentment that his supporters typically display even more so than usual, and push them to fight on his behalf. And sadly, they will.

    Dana (560c99)

  57. @57 I warned this would be the problem with political trials. Civil war is politics by other means. This is not 1972 when bipartisanship was more popular until the nixon pardon which included committing treason with south vietnam to win 1968 election. Bush and clinton were not prosecuted for this reason and the Iran/contra traitors were pardoned. Taking bribes is difficult enough to get a conviction. (see john edwards) If floriduh the jury pool will be full of trumpsters ready to lie their way on to the jury and if it is bumped to D.C. their will be hell to pay. Trumpsters are already talking on line about going after the vermin in the media. Populists are not pro law enforcement economic libertarian conservatives. Populists are not the followers of william f. buckley.

    asset (d8646a)

  58. the hard-right opposition metastasized into a floor rebellion this week.

    If they can’t act out over the debt-limit bill, they will by damn act out over something. They need to make a big stink over everything so that their constituents don’t replace them with some other firebreather.

    It’s not like they can actually pass something after all.

    It’s getting to the point where visitors to Congress will be told not to wear Red or Blue.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  59. Gov Sununu just had a bizarre interview on CNN where he acknowledged the seriousness of the indictment, but then used 80% of his time bashing the DOJ. SMH.

    You are going to get a headache then. The GOP response is two-fold. 1) they will paint the DoJ as a bunch of fork-tongued partisans who didn’t charge Hillary, etc and 2) they will do their best to let Trump twist in the wind while seeming to support him in this UNJUST prosecution.

    Nowhere are you going to see anyone outside the inner cult saying something like “Trump is innocent.”

    Now you can call out all the facts or assertions you want that Hillary was unjustly accused. Will. Not. Matter. Her story is written. Besides, “What difference, at this point, does it make?”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  60. The Proud Boys are also circulating the announcement on social media. We’ve already seen this movie. I suspect law enforcement will be out in full force.

    What could go wrong?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  61. Last March I said that the NY charges were a mistake, as they were clearly political and would taint the real cases to come. I hate being right.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  62. MAGAdonians.

    You’ve got to give McShtuppen credit. If dat boy don’t know how to sort out the short bus people, ain’t nobody does.

    nk (1f777f)

  63. Aileen M. Cannon presiding with a Miami jury. I’ll write the headline now: TRUMP JURY HUNG, TRUMP ENVIOUS BUT HAPPY

    nk (1f777f)

  64. It’s not really funny.

    This spoiled, rich jerkoff, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, America gave him mansions and penthouses, private clubs and private planes, fancy cars and fancy women, marble bathrooms with crystal chandeliers (a crystal chandelier in a bath), and he spit and continues to spit on our laws and our institutions and steals our national defense secrets and keeps them in his marble bathroom. With the crystal chandelier.

    And when he’s caught, America gives him the full benefit of our laws, with sworn peace officers, and a grand jury, and a judge he appointed, and a jury in a friendly venue for his trial, and his moron followers hold him up as a victim of injustice.

    Jordan Neely was begging for his daily bread in the New York subway and was strangled to death and these same morons hold up his killer as a hero and a “Good Samaritan”.

    Un-f***ing-believable!

    nk (1f777f)

  65. It’s amazing to me that anyone is still on this incompetent boob’s bandwagon.

    He deserves his day in court but the allegations laid out in the indictment, if proven, are damning. And the evidence referenced in the indictment appears strong and compelling.

    But we will see. Trump has a knack for screwing up and getting out of it. He’s also built a support base that loves him far more then they do the USA so that’s another tool in his tool box.

    Time123 (b33f4d)

  66. Jordan Neely was begging for his daily bread in the New York subway and was strangled to death and these same morons hold up his killer as a hero and a “Good Samaritan”.

    Except for being a pack of lies, you have a point.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  67. Time,

    If this was assigned to another judge, Trump’s lawyers would be seeking a plea. Now, probably not, at least not right away.

    I don’t see Cannon as being able to gut the case, but she may be willing to make a series of rulings, all of which fail on time-consuming appeals — further enhancing Trump’s victim-creds and adding delay.

    All Trump wants is to push any trial past Jan 20, 2025 so he can pardon himself.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  68. Except for being a pack of lies, you have a point.

    You’re the liar. Every word I wrote is true.

    nk (f7c063)

  69. Jordan Neely was demanding his daily bread in the New York subway and threatening to kill people if he didn’t get it and was subdued in a way that led to his accidental death and these same morons hold up Neely as a victim.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  70. Fixed it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  71. And besides, it really only distracted from your otherwise spot-on post.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  72. Or are you saying that anyone who thinks Neely was in the wrong is a Trump cultist and/or moron? Because I’m not the only one here who will take exception to that.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  73. I think Jack Smith will move to replace Judge Cannon due to her significant error in the special master ruling. Now, it may be that she is not in fact a Trump-shill, but was just wrong on the law and facts. The argument would be that justice can’t be tainted by the appearance.

    The bigger problem might be the jury. Obviously a grand jury agreed with the charges, but I see south Florida being a tough venue to find 12 jurors open to conviction. Could someone be found that doesn’t have an opinion on the matter and who doesn’t have a partisan bent? These days? Maybe Smith saw the opposite problem in DC and figured let’s just jump in front of the venue change. We could see jury nullification.

    The question will then be, can this get done before next June even? Especially with Manhattan and the likelihood of Georgia sprouting in August…and then maybe a J6 indictment too. Trump will not want to expedite anything. Hell, except for the precarious legal position, he’s probably loving the fund raising potential he has now. But with motions and appeals and wanting the calendar to reflect his other legal entanglements, can we get this done before the convention?

    Still, will this start to move his popularity? Some say up, but I think this will start soft-MAGA to look to the general and the chaos of possibly multiple trials simultaneously running. It would sure create drama that hard-MAGA will find irresistible. But too many good people will recognize that this would be horrible for the country and for Republican politics. I still predict Trump does not get the nomination.

    Now does he run 3rd party anyways? Likely, right? His play is to win the Presidency and stop all prosecutions. The question is whether the GOP wants to become the criminal syndicate to make it happen. I’m not confident.

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  74. We will see how sympathetic Daniel Penny comes across. He was placed in a difficult situation by NYC allowing mentally troubled individuals to harass riders and not provide adequate police response. Yes, Neely did not initiate the physicality and Penny did not appear to carefully assess Neely’s condition in the hold, but Penny’s state of mind and the other passenger’s fear will factor into how jurors will see this. I still think Penny will go to trial because NYC can’t afford having more preemptive attacks on troubled individuals, but I understand frustration with being locked in a car with someone deranged and unpredictable.

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  75. Now, it may be that she is not in fact a Trump-shill, but was just wrong on the law and facts.

    And she may bend over backwards to avoid appearing as such.

    The bigger problem might be the jury. Obviously a grand jury agreed with the charges, but I see south Florida being a tough venue to find 12 jurors open to conviction. … jury nullification.

    I think that Smith chose South Florida because of the pesky 6th Amendment:

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed

    The question will then be, can this get done before next June even? Especially with Manhattan and the likelihood of Georgia sprouting in August…and then maybe a J6 indictment too. Trump will not want to expedite anything.

    Maybe. It depends on the judge and how willing she is to allow delays. It would help if the judge herself was not issuing orders that the prosecution needed to appeal, but Trump is a vexatious appellant.

    It may be that the weight of all these cases, and the incredible likelihood of a long sentence if he drags it out (some of these charges are headshots) may force him out of the race entirely. If he’s willing to plead and cut a deal, there is a short window where the State will be interested.

    I still predict Trump does not get the nomination.

    Agreed. And he won’t run 3rd party either with these cases hanging over his head as that is not the best path to gain goodwill at sentencing.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  76. There is a problem with jury nullification, but that is just the flip side of a prospective juror intending to convict. I think it’s something that federal prosecutors are able to detect and thwart.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  77. Trump’s best bet is to drop out now and hope that the GOP wins and the next president pardons him, “due to the political nature of this prosecution when compared the lack of prosecution of similarly situated Democrats.”

    Assuming, of course, that the J6 case doesn’t blow that up.

    You will note that most of the GOP is avoiding the case itself and simply talking about political bias and double standards. It’s not the same kind of thing they said about the outrageous NY gotcha case by a DA with gubernatorial ambitions.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  78. AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:20 am

    I was making no judgment about Penny in that context. Only about privilege. Yeah, I know the word “privilege” is overused and misused but there is still privilege just the same. And it comes with concomitant obligations.

    The only privilege Jordan Neely had had, for a long time, was to be allowed to exist. And the concomitant obligation to society was not his but society’s own. Not to take it away from him without due process.

    nk (f7c063)

  79. > Assuming, of course, that the J6 case doesn’t blow that up.

    There’s also the case that’s almost certainly coming in Georgia.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  80. “Privilege” is indeed overused, and misused.

    Donald Trump has privilege. So do the Kennedys, the Bidens, the Bushes, etc. Most everyone else does not.

    What we have are expectations. I have the expectation that the authorities will treat me fairly. No better of worse than my actions deserve. That is not, however, privilege. Privilege is the expectation (or actuality) that one will be treated BETTER than their their rights as a citizen require.

    The problem is, of course, that some have learned that those expectations rarely match reality. They are treated instead by authorities as second-class citizens, or worse. In short, their rights are not honored (or defended) by the authorities. This failure should not be confused with “privilege.”

    This is, of course, what BLM is all about after you strip away all the bandwagon and grifting stuff. A demand for equal treatment.

    If you want to see an example of privilege, here’s a video of a old white guy thinking that he will be treated special by riot cops as he berates them:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlmAfv-mrXA

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  81. There’s also the case that’s almost certainly coming in Georgia.

    Antone not moved by the documents case won’t be moved by that one either.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  82. Heath Mayo, on the difference between Hillary and Donald document situations…

    Let’s walk through this blow by blow, since it appears to be the last-ditch argument the GOP wants to try to hang its hat on:
    Why is the Hillary situation different from the Trump situation and why is it *not* a double standard to charge Trump and not Hillary? (1/)

    Hillary’s case concerned use of a private email server for official govt biz during her time as Sec of State & the content of those emails.
    So, Difference #1: Hillary didn’t willfully handpick the most sensitive NatSec items to shove in boxes & take home. It was all her emails.

    Now, of those emails (~30,000), the FBI conducted a full investigation, and Hillary turned over every single one of those emails as soon as she was asked.
    Difference #2: Hillary never obstructed justice or tried to conceal emails from authorities. Trump did so multiple times.

    Hillary said no emails had classified info. But the FBI found that 110 of the emails did have info that was classified when sent.
    Not good. Irresponsible. But it presents Difference #3: There was no hard evidence Hillary *knew* she had classified info. Trump admitted it on tape.

    There was no evidence Hillary sent her classified emails to any third parties who she knew lacked clearance. There was only the threat of hacking by foreign actors. Bad.
    But Difference #4: Trump actively showed off his intel to reporters & third parties he knew weren’t cleared.

    None of this excuses Hillary’s behavior. Her use of a private server was reckless and irresponsible and endangered US national security.
    But Difference #5: Her conduct is not regularly prosecuted when done by others, whereas anyone who did what Trump did would be prosecuted.

    One last point here, but an important one: each difference listed is not just a difference of degree (though Trump’s behavior was more damaging). Each difference is a *categorical* one that goes directly to the elements of the laws. Knowledge, intent, obstruction, discretion.

    Nevertheless, I still think her conducting State Department business on her home-brewed server rises to the level of “gross negligence”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  83. As for Neely, the city conspired to leave him on the street. He did numerous things, perhaps daily, to get himself put into custodial care. But this would have cost the city money, which it would rather spend on the salaries and perks of city employees. Everything else is secondary.

    So, Neely caroms from one predicament to the next, unable to cope in the big city, and eventually he takes his madness up a level where others react in fear. Penny is no more responsible for Neely’s death than the guy who strikes out at the end of the 9th inning is responsible for losing the game.

    The people who could have saved Neely from the inevitable result of his madness are the same ones pointing the finger at Penny. I’d say “Shame!” but it really could have been any bureaucracy anywhere.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  84. Ted Kaczynski (81) has died. With the death of Soviet and Russian spy Robert Hanssen, hell’s waiting room is getting crowded.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  85. He’s also built a support base that loves him far more then they do the USA
    Time123 (b33f4d)

    The people most inclined to label themselves “patriots” ostentatiously are people who say that America is corrupt if it doesn’t give Trump what he wants, and America is rotten if it holds him accountable for violating the law and hurting the country.

    Trump’s apologists claimed that whatever his flaws might be, he “loves America” more earnestly than all his critics do. But his version of patriotism is highly conditional: America is great if he’s in charge, or if America makes him great.

    MAGAs lapped up the performative flag-hugging and the “we win / you lose” brand of foreign policy. Some say that “Trump is America” and “if you hate Trump, you hate America.”

    GOP politicians still take the position that defending Trump is more important than defending the rule of law and more important than protecting national security.

    During the Trump presidency, there was a spike in the number of foreign intelligence assets who were killed or captured – at the same time as some White House insiders were noticing Trump’s casual treatment of classified material and his inability to comprehend why things needed to be kept secret. He didn’t understand all the “sources and methods” concerns, for one thing. He just thought “I’m the president and I can do what I want with this information,” such as divulging it to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in the Oval Office.

    After that incident, the intelligence community decided it was necessary to extricate an asset from Russia. Briefers learned early on that they needed to be careful about what information they allowed Trump to see.

    MAAGA apologists are either oblivious or indifferent to all that. They fall back on “He was the Duly Elected President, and he had the authority to declassify anything,” plus the more bizarre notion that Trump knew best what was in America’s best interest and would always, unfailingly, put America First — notwithstanding his routine displays of extreme self-centeredness.

    Radegunda (0edccc)

  86. Heath Mayo, on the difference between Hillary and Donald document situations…

    Nobody is listening. Hillary’s “crimes” are well-known and it does not matter whether it is actually true. It’s truthy enough for be invulnerable to long-winded, detailed rebuttals. Nobody wants to rehash that any more.

    So, instead, satisfy yourself that the GOP reaction is not “Trump is innocent” but more “they only go after Republicans with these charges!” That is not a defense of Trump (although he may think it is) but an acknowledgement that he’s guilty, and a political talking point meant to keep MAGA in camp while Trump swings.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  87. The people most inclined to label themselves “patriots” ostentatiously are people who say that America is corrupt if it doesn’t give Trump what he wants, and America is rotten if it holds him accountable for violating the law and hurting the country.

    This is true, but ignores that other groups do the same damn thing. When W was president, opposing the Iraq war or post 9/11 measures was “patriotic” as well. Even the 9/11 Truthers thought they were the patriotic ones.

    This really just an extension of the “we are good, they are evil” partisanship that’s been going on for quite some time.

    Moods change, self-righteousness rarely does.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  88. Nevertheless, I still think her conducting State Department business on her home-brewed server rises to the level of “gross negligence”.

    It’s a direct violation of federal laws regarding conduct of government business. If was not “negligence” — it was intentional and calculated to make her conversations unrecoverable by the government, contrary to law.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  89. Rip,

    supporting documentation comes from druggie Biden’s laptop and druggie Biden’s business partners. Or did you forget?

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:39 pm

    I mean independent sources of corroboration-bank records, telephone records, and live witness testimony. Stuff that holds up in court called evidence.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  90. Paul,

    It should be noted that, even though dissemination cannot always be proved, when there is a large cache of documents, or indications that dissemination was going on, both the charging decisions and the sentencing reflect that.

    So, in a case where a former sergeant has 10,000 classified documents and, when arrested, has a memory stick with 1500 of them on it, they will treat it as a case of actual espionage even if they cannot prove it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  91. So, doing some research on using USB drives for nefarious purposes, I came across this:

    A company in Hong Kong has even developed a USB that could kill a computer. Collecting power from the USB line, it absorbs power until it reaches about 240 volts and then discharges that energy back into the data lines in devastating power surges.

    Not very expensive, either.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  92. Sununu blasts 2024 GOP candidates over response to Trump indictment
    ………..
    Sununu said in an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper on Friday that he is surprised the other candidates running for the GOP nomination are not being more “aggressive” in calling out the allegations Trump is facing as a “huge problem.”

    “When you’re running in a race, you’re trying to beat the guy ahead of you. You’re trying to knock him down, and given all the things and the rap sheet there that’s a mile long, you’d think that they’d be more aggressive,” he said.
    ………..
    “You almost look like you’re defending him at this point,” Sununu said of the other candidates in the race. “That does not look like a serious candidate that’s willing to take him on over the next six months to knock his poll numbers down and shoot you to the top. Either you want to run for president and beat the guy or you don’t.”
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  93. I forgot about the thumb drive, Kevin. It sounds like a backup was made, by someone, and given to her lawyer, and it’s as non-kosher as all the other crap she’s pulled.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  94. supporting documentation comes from druggie Biden’s laptop and druggie Biden’s business partners. Or did you forget?

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:39 pm

    Given the laptop’s chain of custody issues (after being possessed by Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, the New York Post, and WaPo) I wouldn’t trust anything on it as holy writ. Whatever documents are on the laptop need to be authenticated by the authors before they can be used in court.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  95. When W was president, opposing the Iraq war or post 9/11 measures was “patriotic” as well.

    Perhaps, but I don’t remember the people who took those positions literally wrapping themselves in the flag and routinely putting the “patriot” label on themselves or chanting “USA!” as Trumpites do. There was more of “America is the bully, arrogantly trying to control other countries” and “the U.S. government is just as indifferent to human rights as the countries it criticizes.”

    It’s true that the right wing say our government is tyrannical when Democrats are in charge, and vocal people in the MAGA right now claim that Russia’s war to subjugate Ukraine is really a defensive action against “threats to Russian civilization” that ultimately come from the U.S. And that’s really head-spinning.

    But it’s long been true that the political right is more self-consciously “patriotic” than the political left. There’s more “proud to be American” responses to surveys on the right than on the left, more flag-waving, more Lee Greenwood, etc.

    Then, the political right turned a malignant narcissist into its ultimate “patriotic” hero and organized its sense of patriotism around his desires and interests. “If you hate Donald Trump, you hate America” is a distillation of that degraded understanding of what is patriotic.

    Radegunda (0edccc)

  96. “it was intentional and calculated to make her conversations unrecoverable by the government”

    It’s quite the day when Kevin is driving me to defend Hillary…to a point.

    The FBI did investigate this extensively. What was clear, as detailed in the comprehensive story linked below, was that this was no great techno-scaper. Hillary was notoriously tech-phobic. She never learned how to use a desktop computer, preferred her Blackberry to an iPad, and hated to upgrade her devices after learning and getting comfortable with its features.

    This was a woman that understood that we could now communicate much faster, but really didn’t comprehend security issues and FOIA transparency requirements. She put it all on assistants, with some guidance from General Colin Powell thrown in to boot. The big problem was that she didn’t want two phones to separate her work emails from her personal emails. This created an unholy mess. Yes, some of the emails contained classified markings and some were upgraded after inspection. She claimed ignorance and demonstrated efforts to use email and skirt classified details.

    A lot of emails were deleted as an attempt to carve the personal from the work. Again, Hillary wasn’t sitting there for hours reviewing 10’s of thousands of emails. This was her staff, likely searching by keyword, and deleting results in mass. Bad, but not exactly intentional…like her trying to hide secret payoff deals with China. This was grandma…ok screeching grandma….overwhelmed by technology. Not exatly an excuse, but it carves away at intentionality.

    Powell did recommend that she conduct as much business as possible without a paper trail. I can almost believe that she did not grasp that (c) at the start of the paragraph actually meant something important. Was this reckless? Absolutely. She risked interception and doctoring. Was this illegal? Perhaps, though it rests on intent. It might also surprise one to appreciate how much business at state was done outside of government servers. The good thing is that this did shine some light and hopefully pull practice closer to the DoD and its contractors.

    So, many of her conversations were recovered. It does not appear that she calculated anything. She should have been indicted on principle to drive a point, even if she was ultimately found not guilty. I’m glad she wasn’t elected President. I’m just sorry that the alternative couldn’t have been more ethical….

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/hillary-clinton-emails-2016-server-state-department-fbi-214307/

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  97. Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.

    I think that’s worthy of a top post.

    NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:18 am

    “I read in the news that some people said that a government agency with which they may or may not be associated got a report from a unknown source of therefore unknowable reliability that the President took a bribe. I think that’s worthy of a top post.”

    Fixed that for you.

    On an unrelated note, I know a guy who knows a girl whose husband’s nephew’s T-Ball coach has pilates with a part-time barista who occasionally serves coffee to the nanny of a mid-level executive at a minor Fortune 500 company. So, have I got a hot stock tip for you!

    Demosthenes (525864)

  98. The NBA ruined professional basketball for me, after the Sonics were undeservedly relocated to OK City…

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:26 pm

    Not “undeservedly relocated.” Purchased and moved.

    Yay capitalism, and go Thunder!

    Demosthenes (525864)

  99. This was a woman that understood that we could now communicate much faster, but really didn’t comprehend security issues and FOIA transparency requirements

    So, she accidentally stumbled up a setup that hid all her communications, was immune to 3rd party subpoena and erasable at her command, while refusing to use the government-provided devices? Because she was tech-phobic? This dog doesn’t hunt.

    She accomplished all her goals with this server and would never ever have delivered any of its contents to the government archives if she had not been caught.

    Having been caught, she played the clumsy victim of circumstance. Luckily for her, she was believed by her friends.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  100. TrumpWorld Keeping It Classy:

    In what is becoming a now all-too-familiar trend, former President Donald Trump’s far-right supporters have threatened civil war ……..

    “We need to start killing these traitorous f*ckstains,” wrote one Trump supporter on The Donald, a rabidly pro-Trump message board that played a key role in planning the January 6 attack on the Capitol. Another user added: “It’s not gonna stop until bodies start stacking up. We are not civilly represented anymore and they’ll come for us next. Some of us, they already have.”
    …………..
    Trump supporters are making specific threats too. In one post on The Donald titled, “A little bit about Merrick Garland, his wife, his daughters,” a user shared a link to an article about the attorney general’s children.

    Under the post, another user replied: “His children are fair game as far as I’m concerned.”
    …………
    Others on similar social media platforms made general calls for an armed uprising. “The entire Republican Party should flood the courthouse and demand real justice here,” one supporter wrote on Truth Social. It wasn’t just anonymous users saying this, however: Right-wing talk show host Charlie Kirk called on all Trump supporters to descend on Miami on Tuesday to protest the indictment.

    “This is the JFK assassinaton all over again,” right-wing personality and Pizzagate promoter Michael Cernovich wrote, claiming that the “deep state” had killed JFK and were now using the Justice Department to take down Trump.
    ………….
    ………….(F)ormer Trump aide Stephen Miller appeared on Fox News and said he hoped the “whole of the Republican party, the whole of the conservative movement, the whole of the country that cares about the rule of law coalesces around President Trump.”

    Later, one of Trump’s own lawyers Alina Habba appeared on Fox News and said she was “embarrassed to be a lawyer at this moment. Honestly, I’m ashamed to be a lawyer.”
    …………..
    “It’s the biggest campaign contribution ever, thanks Dims,” one user wrote on The Donald. “This will actually help Trump get re-elected by a wide margin. Then he will go on a rampage. These communists don’t know when to quit,” another wrote.
    ………….

    Who knew it took this for Alina Habba to be embarrassed and ashamed to be a lawyer, and not after being sanctioned nearly $1M for “frivolous” and “vexatious” litigation relating to Trump’s RICO lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and dozens of others.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  101. I will accept that she did not set up the server. If there is a Hell, then programmers there spend all their time editing Sendmail config files for capricious users.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  102. “This will actually help Trump get re-elected by a wide margin. Then he will go on a rampage….”

    And this is what they want. They don’t want a President, they want a strongman dictator who cuts down the law to get at the (many, many) devils. They want camps and liquidation of their opponents. They want Emperor Trump the Retribution.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  103. Classic FoxNews, they start with an all-allegation zero-evidence story about Joe Biden taking a $5 billion payout while VP, and then they changed their all-allegation zero-evidence story.

    Thursday, Fox News congressional correspondent Chad Pergram contradicted claims from Republican lawmakers who were permitted to view the form under secure conditions — and other Fox News reporting — saying “a source familiar with the document tells Fox, quote, ‘The document does not say Joe Biden received any payments.’ Still, the GOP is going for the jugular.”

    You’d think that after being penalized in court by 157½ times the amount of the alleged bribe for their all-allegation zero-evidence stories about voting machines, they’d be a little more careful about “reporting” on all-allegation zero-evidence stories.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  104. Luckily, these charges mean that 1) Trump will not be the nominee, 2) that Trump will not run 3rd Party, and 3) MAGA will support the GOP’s candidate.

    Why? Because Trump needs a pardon, and only another Republican can give him one. Besides the probable disallowance of a self-pardon, there is the unelectability issue. His best bet is for DeSantis (or whomever) to pardon him or commute whatever sentence.

    Unless, of course, the judge throws all the charges out.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  105. be a little more careful about “reporting” on all-allegation zero-evidence stories.

    I guess Burisma could sue, but claiming a politician took a bribe is routine and generally protected in libel law.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  106. Ted Kaczynski’s hate-filled screed remains online at the Washington Post and other hate sites.

    Sorry no link for hate.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  107. “So, she accidentally stumbled up a setup that hid all her communications, was immune to 3rd party subpoena and erasable at her command, while refusing to use the government-provided devices?”

    You start with the premise that she’s a master villain and that as Sec of State she is involved in all of this alleged nefarious corruption. It all just ends in inuendo. It didn’t hide all her communications. She provided lots of communications for Benghazi. She did in fact respond to other congressional calls for data. The question is, were things missed because of their sloppiness? Possibly. I would encourage you to read the synopsis of the FBI investigation that I linked to. These are professionals who do this for a living.

    AJ_Liberty (36dc92)

  108. Luckily, these charges mean that 1) Trump will not be the nominee, 2) that Trump will not run 3rd Party, and 3) MAGA will support the GOP’s candidate.

    We’ll see. I think MAGA world would rather sit out the election rather than being unable to vote for Trump, especially if the nominee is one of the Lilliputians.

    Rip Murdock (f2fe26)

  109. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:13 pm

    What’s your point? Trump has said he is their retribution.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  110. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that, by this time next week, Trump will still poll above 30% for the GOP nomination, which should tell anyone the percentage of unreasoning cultists in my party. I would love to be wrong.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  111. Trump Says He Wants Quick Vindication. Don’t Count On It.
    ………….
    If Trump were an ordinary person charged with a run-of-the-mill federal crime, like a bank robbery or a narcotics trafficking offense, it would be unlikely a trial would occur within a year of the arraignment. Criminal cases take a long time to wind their way through the system because defendants have the constitutional right to review discovery and make motions, there are often plea discussions with the government, and trials can be challenging to schedule given courts’ busy trial calendars.
    …………..
    ………….. For one thing, Trump is not going to concede anything so it’s unlikely there would be significant plea negotiations. And given the stature of the defendant and his unusually high public profile as a presidential candidate, a judge would almost certainly clear out their calendar to make time for a trial if the former president wanted to put this matter behind him before election season.
    ……….
    Any national security case comes with additional obstacles that make a speedy trial difficult………
    ………….
    And the discovery in this case will almost certainly involve classified material beyond the documents charged in the indictment. ………
    ………..
    So we should take (Special Counsel Jack) Smith’s claim that he intends to give Trump a “speedy trial” with a grain of salt. As a practical matter, Smith has laid out a case that is overwhelming and he has not held back. While Trump is entitled to a speedy trial, Smith did not streamline his case and it would take a herculean effort to bring this to trial next year.

    ……….. If Trump wants a speedy trial, and the judge honors that desire, this case could be tried before election season. But practically speaking there is only a narrow window of time in which this could happen………..
    …………
    Defense attorneys can create potential issues for appeal by telling the judge that they are not prepared to proceed, have been unable to review discovery with their client, or have been unable to locate a crucial witness. Defendants can fire their attorneys shortly before trial and hire new attorneys, which creates a lengthy delay as the new attorneys get up to speed. ……..
    ……………..
    So the ball is in Trump’s court. He could easily delay this trial past the election — and there is every reason why he would, from fundraising advantages to avoiding a distraction from the campaign trail to the very real risk that a conviction might present.
    …………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  112. Kevin m – it’s hard to resist the conclusion that many of them view the Holocaust as a model, as long as the victims are liberals, and just want a leader with the courage to take us there

    aphrael (001ab1)

  113. They want Emperor Trump the Retribution

    When the elite “thinkers” of MAGA-land assert that every American voter who didn’t vote for Trump is “not American in any meaningful sense” and that it’s time to move beyond the “technocratic process of vote-counting,” they’re saying that they’ve given up on constitutional democracy because it too often delivers the “wrong” results. They’re delegitimizing the choices and actions of the non-Trumpite party and claiming a moral right to use extraordinary means to get what they want, rather than trying to persuade voters to go their way. It’s the “Flight 93” doctrine amped up in a way that practically invites the MAGA base to resort to violence.
    Add in the claim that any law enforcement against their amoral, sociopathic cult leader is unequivocally illegitimate and tantamount to an attack on America itself, and you’ve got a really toxic brew.

    Radegunda (0edccc)

  114. 10 Exciting New Golf Rules Coming With The PGA-LIV Merger
    ………..
    1. Players who hit an errant shot must yell “ALLAHU AKBAR!” instead of “FORE!”: We’re pretty sure fans will pay a little more attention when someone starts screaming this.

    2. ……….

    3. Players will be allowed to eliminate one stroke per round, known as the “Kashoggi rule”: Very handy.

    4. Bunkers will be booby-trapped with mines from the Golan Heights: It will give a whole new meaning to the phrase “explode out of the sand”.

    5…………

    6. If players miss a putt less than two feet, guards immediately chop off their hands: Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman believes if you miss a putt at that distance, you no longer deserve hands.

    7. Once per weekend, they will let a suicide bomber loose on the course: Golf will never be boring again.

    8. ……….

    9. ……… Players will be caned at the end of each round for each stroke over par: No more players cashing it in on a lousy round.

    10. …………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  115. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that, by this time next week, Trump will still poll above 30% for the GOP nomination……..

    I doubt it will change much next week, what will be interesting is what Morning Consult tracking poll will be the week after his arraignment. My prediction is that it will go up. ⬆️

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  116. We’ll see. I think MAGA world would rather sit out the election rather than being unable to vote for Trump, especially if the nominee is one of the Lilliputians.

    Trump will ask them to vote. He needs the GOP to win and for the new president to owe him.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  117. Trump will ask them to vote.

    But will they? They consider DeSantis and Scott Wall Street globalist stooges, they object to Haley because she took down the Confederate flag which led to removal of Confederate statues and the renaming of military bases and ships, Pence and Christie are traitors, Ramaswamy (along with Haley) aren’t natural born citizens, and they just laugh at Hutchinson.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  118. Correction.
    Judge Cannon chances of getting the case was a lot higher than 4%.
    I think they need to change their rules, to account for prior cases involving the same parties (such as the prior case between Trump and DOJ) where the judge was rebuked on legal and ethical grounds.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  119. Good comments, Radegunda

    Dana (560c99)

  120. The prior case is this case. It was SOP for Cannon to get the mess thrown back into her lap, and not some other judge with his own caseload to manage.

    One party will win on appeal and the other party will lose. It does not follow that the prevailing party gets a new judge.

    nk (83f428)

  121. Kari Lake Campaigns To Be VP:

    …………
    “If you want to get to President Trump, you’re going to have to go through me and you’re going to have to go through 75 million Americans just like me,” Lake said (at a convention of Georgia Republicans) to raucous applause. Most of those Trump voters, she pointedly added, are “card-carrying members” of the National Rifle Association.

    “That’s not a threat. That’s a public service announcement,” she said. “We will not let you lay a finger on President Trump. Frankly, now is the time to cling to our guns and our religion.”

    The crowd responded with a standing ovation, according to Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter Greg Bluestein.

    Lake was tapped to step in for former Vice President Mike Pence as a speaker after he canceled his appearance. ………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  122. Profile in Courage:

    ….…….
    “The party really has to coalesce and we need to be focused on broad-based coalitions,” (Georgia Secretary of State Brad) Raffensperger said on Fox News, noting his and Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp’s overwhelming victories in the last election. “That’s how you win and that’s how Republicans win not only in Georgia, but nationwide — particularly as things are more competitive.”

    ……….. Raffensperger said “I support the rule of law,” and called on Republicans to “find leaders that are principled when they hold themselves up.”

    …………While Raffensperger stressed he is “looking for someone that’s a principled leader with integrity,” when pressed he evaded saying definitively whether he would vote for Trump if he were to be the party’s 2024 presidential nominee. Raffensperger responded only by repeating that he’s “looking for principled leadership.”
    ………….
    Raffensperger confirmed that he was not invited to Trump’s speech (at the Georgia State Republican Party convention).

    “For some reason the constitutional officers — statewide elected Republican office-holders — were not invited to the event,” he quipped.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  123. But will they?

    Did you know that not one of the first 7 presidents were born to US citizens?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  124. They consider DeSantis and Scott Wall Street globalist stooges

    That Trumpists call other people “stooges” is one of those irony things.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  125. One party will win on appeal and the other party will lose. It does not follow that the prevailing party gets a new judge.

    Unless they are Microsoft.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  126. In a way, this is ironic. Trump has spent considerable time and effort attacking the Rule of Law. Now he complains that the DoJ is lawless in these charges.

    Sir Thomas More could explain it to him.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  127. Trump delivers fiery post-indictment speech: ‘They’re coming after you’
    …………
    After his historic federal indictment, the former president stepped onstage Saturday in front of more than 2,000 people packed into a convention center (in Columbus, Georgia) to once again declare his innocence and deliver a grievance-laced takedown of what he said was a biased federal law enforcement apparatus.

    “In the end, they’re not coming after me. They’re coming after you — and I’m just standing in their way,” Trump said.

    “The ridiculous and baseless indictment of me by the Biden administration’s weaponized Department of Injustice will go down as among the most horrific abuses of power in the history of our country,” he said. “Many people have said that; Democrats have even said it. This vicious persecution is a travesty of justice.”
    …………
    Trump repeatedly mocked the indictment. He called (Special Counsel Jack) Smith “deranged” and said the Justice Department was a “sick nest of people that need to be cleaned out.”

    “They took one charge and made it 37,” Trump said. “It’s a political hit job.”

    The crowd, some carrying signs that read “The FBI is the DNC for the KGB,” was friendly toward Trump……….
    ……….
    “I will prevent World War III. … Without me, it will happen,” he said. “And this won’t be a conventional war with Army tanks going back and forth, shooting each other. This will be a nuclear war. This will be obliteration — perhaps obliteration of the entire world. I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”
    …………
    Hours before the start of the Georgia event, Trump’s campaign released a poll showing him leading DeSantis 44-21 in Iowa and declaring Trump the “clear front-runner” in the state seen as key for DeSantis if he wants to build early momentum to knock off Trump.
    …………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  128. Did you know that not one of the first 7 presidents were born to US citizens?

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:39 pm

    Actually it was the first nine presidents, and the 12th (Zachary Taylor). However, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 (the Qualifications Clause) of the Constitution allowed them to become President:

    No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President……..

    (In his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, Justice Joseph) Story explained that this was done “out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honors in their adopted country.”

    Which of course has nothing to do about the irrational citizenship claims by TrumpWorld regarding Haley and Ramaswamy.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  129. Thanks, Dana.

    I wonder if Kari Lake has calculated that she needs to be as atrocious as possible to be a star in MAGA-land, or if she really is a malignant loon.

    “I will prevent World War III. … Without me, it will happen, … I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”
    Nobody else says things like that because nobody else in public life is such a deranged, off-the-charts narcissist. And if he possesses the magical key to preventing nuclear war, why the heck won’t he tell anyone the secret before it’s too late?

    His cult followers are so moronic that they believe his inanities. They whoop and cheer when he claims that he could end the Ukraine war within 24 hours, and they never ask “how?” Much less, “Why don’t you divulge your secret plan so the killing and dying can end tomorrow?”

    I read that back in 1986 Trump claimed that if Reagan made him an envoy to the Soviet Union he could end the Cold War in an hour. Maybe age made him slightly more modest about his singular powers of persuasion, but his self-estimation is still insane.

    What’s weirder is how many people buy into his own preposterously inflated sense of his own exceptional genius and totally faultless character. It’s like a form of mass psychosis.

    Radegunda (16fcbd)

  130. What’s weirder is how many people buy into his own preposterously inflated sense of his own exceptional genius and totally faultless character. It’s like a form of mass psychosis.

    They’re still at Nuremberg, planning Kristallnacht. They have not had to retreat from Stalingrad yet. The one time they suffered pain, he and his enablers managed to shift the blame to Fauci.

    nk (5ad3ba)

  131. 29,. Count 9: “Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country.”
    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:14 pm

    Is this Milley’s document about Iran?

    No, that can’t be it. That document was about a possible attack or attacks on Iran’s nuclear program and its defenses.

    Trump had all kinds of documents relating to military and foreiign policy, and they were unsorted.

    He said on the recording (which was it turns out not with TWO ghostwriters, but with one ghostwriter and a representative of the publisher of the Meadows book) that he had just happened to stumble across it.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  132. Trump vows to stay in the race even if convicted
    ………..
    “I’ll never leave,” Trump said in an interview (with Politico) aboard his plane. “Look, if I would have left, I would have left prior to the original race in 2016. That was a rough one. In theory that was not doable.”
    …………
    ………… “These are thugs and degenerates who are after me,” he said.

    Trump predicted he would not be convicted and said he did not anticipate taking a plea deal, though he left open the possibility of doing so “where they pay me some damages.”

    He sidestepped the possibility that he would pardon himself should he win the presidency in 2024. “I don’t think I’ll ever have to,” Trump said. “I didn’t do anything wrong.”
    …………
    Trump’s remarks came as he flew between speeches to Republicans in Georgia and North Carolina. ……..
    …………
    All day Saturday, there were signs that Trump’s staunchest backers were unmoved by the news. Supporters lined the side of the highway running parallel to the runway at the airport in Columbus, Ga., many waving flags and standing atop trucks to get a view of the “Trump”-emblazoned jet touching down. Upon deplaning, he was greeted by a group of supporters on the tarmac, some holding “witch hunt” signs.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  133. Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:50 pm

    More From Georgia (And North Carolina):

    ……….
    “This is the final battle,” Mr. Trump said in the speech to several thousand activists, delegates and members of the media who gathered in Columbus, Ga., at a brick building that was once an ironworks that manufactured mortars, guns and cannons for the Confederate Army in the Civil War.
    …………..
    “Either the Communists win and destroy America, or we destroy the Communists,” the former president said in Georgia, seeming to refer to Democrats. He made similar remarks about the “Deep State,” using the pejorative term he uses for U.S. intelligence agencies and more broadly for any federal government bureaucrat he perceives as a political opponent. He railed against “globalists,” “warmongers” in government and “the sick political class that hates our country.”
    ………….
    And he attacked by name Fani Willis, the district attorney of Fulton County, Ga., who is weighing criminal charges against Mr. Trump, calling her “a lunatic Marxist” and accusing her of ignoring violent crime and instead spending all of her time “working on getting Trump.”
    …………..
    The crowd cheered and laughed throughout, and when he mentioned Democrats, the hall was filled with boos and jeers. At one mention of Hillary Clinton, a woman started chanting, “Lock her up!”
    ………….
    The Columbus convention crowd that Mr. Trump addressed was beyond friendly: It was devotional. While this was ostensibly a convention for the Republican Party of Georgia, a casual observer might be forgiven for thinking it was the Trump Party of Georgia.

    Mr. Trump’s name, slogans and lies about the 2020 election were proudly displayed by party activists. Women wore bejeweled Trump caps. Men wore caps reading “God, Guns and Trump.” References to the 2020 election were everywhere: T-shirts read “Trump won,” and plastered on delegates’ chests and backs were stickers bashing voting machines.
    ………….
    Tom LoSapio, a retired sales manager from North Carolina, said the indictment had “no merit” and only made him want to rally more strongly behind the former president.

    “I think he’s being cheated,” Mr. LoSapio, 68, said at the North Carolina state party’s convention. “I think he’s getting the raw end of the deal. And I think we need to unite around him and make sure he’s again the president of the United States.”
    ………….
    Michael Caputo, a former senior Trump adviser who is now an executive at Americano Media, a new conservative Hispanic media outlet, said the charges “virtually assure” that Mr. Trump will win the Republican nomination in 2024.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (f2fe26)

  134. Trump’s staunchest backers were unmoved by the news.

    Half of them adhere to the delusion that every charge against Trump is a hoax concocted by the Deep State to take him out because he’s so committed to Draining the Swamp.
    The other half admire his brazen disregard for rules and laws and basic decency.

    Radegunda (16fcbd)

  135. Tom LoSapio, a retired sales manager from North Carolina, said the indictment had “no merit”

    Well, that settles it. Who needs legal “experts” when you’ve got a sales manager to set the matter straight?

    “I think he’s getting the raw end of the deal. And I think we need to unite around him and make sure he’s again the president of the United States.”

    IOW, the main concern is not electing a president who can lead the country with integrity and wisdom. The main concern is to protect Donald Trump and ensure that he gets his revenge.

    Radegunda (16fcbd)

  136. > It’s like a form of mass psychosis.

    It’s *absolutely* a form of mass psychosis.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  137. Trump is deliberately trying to enflame the populace to get himself out of punishment for his crimes, and he doesn’t care if he destroys America in the process.

    Or maybe, maybe, he *wants* to destroy America — and rebuild it in his own image.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  138. Kemp-backed PAC releases poll showing Trump under-performing in Georgia
    ………….
    It is significant that a group aligned with Kemp would circulate the poll, which was conducted prior to the indictment, as the former president comes to Georgia. ……..

    The poll, conducted by the Republican firm Cygnal and commissioned by Kemp’s Hardworking Americans PAC, shows Trump and Biden in a virtual tie in Georgia, with Trump getting support from 42% of Georgia’s likely statewide voters and Biden getting 41%. By comparison, the same poll shows a generic Republican leading Biden by 10 points, 48%-38%.
    …………
    Kemp has said he has no plans to jump into the 2024 presidential race, but has promised to remain engaged in the contest making it clear he believes Republicans cannot win if they do not win Georgia.

    He has generally resisted attacking Trump directly, instead repeatedly pointing to the issue of electability. But he did tweet about Trump’s recent praise of North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un, writing: “Taking our country back from Joe Biden does not start with congratulating North Korea’s murderous dictator.”
    …………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  139. Trump is deliberately trying to enflame the populace to get himself out of punishment for his crimes, and he doesn’t care if he destroys America in the process.

    Or maybe, maybe, he *wants* to destroy America — and rebuild it in his own image.

    aphrael (087fb1) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:01 pm

    Now do George Floyd, BLM and “white supremacy.”

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  140. Heck I’ll make it easy on you.

    Do “trans genocide” and “don’t say gay.”

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  141. This will be obliteration — perhaps obliteration of the entire world. I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”

    HEY!! I can say it! Rip can say it, too! With about as much truthiness.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  142. Which of course has nothing to do about the irrational citizenship claims by TrumpWorld regarding Haley and Ramaswamy.

    Which is why they passed the 14th Amendment as otherwise states would have said that freemen were not citizens when born.

    But yeah, those folks should really not be allowed out in public.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  143. NJRob — no.

    I’m simply not going to engage with you on the subject of the current spate of laws targeting gay and trans people, full stop.

    There aren’t enough drugs to compensate for the damage discussing them with you would do to my mental health.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  144. All day Saturday, there were signs that Trump’s staunchest backers were unmoved by the news.

    Well, that’s not really meaningful. What would be interesting is if donations to others stepped up.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  145. The main concern is to protect Donald Trump and ensure that he gets his revenge.

    Because it’s their revenge, too. They expect camps to open up and all the people they denounce will be sent to the gulags.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  146. @144 I be glad to do it. Our side says as do the spartans with your shield or on it homophobe! My side is ready how about yours?

    asset (df1673)

  147. 145 As jebbie bush and the other 15 dwarfs found out the hard way in 2016 and as AOC showed joe crowley money with nothing to say is of little value. Desatan and his running dogs in the media will be yelling trannies! And illegals! Democrats will counter with ABORTION! and insurrection/treason! Democrats had no real message in 2022 and would have been crushed in the election until the supreme court handed them the hill to die on. Abortion. You have gun grabbing we have womb grabbing. 80% of voters oppose a ban on abortion and don’t want to have to use a coat hanger! They will vote out every republican on the ballot!

    asset (df1673)

  148. They will vote out every republican on the ballot!

    Not the comment of someone who wants to be taken seriously.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  149. This is Putin’s corrupted Russian Orthodox church.

    1/ Pacifism is a heresy, according to a new ruling by an ecclesiastical court of the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC). The ruling, said to have been directed personally by Patriarch Kirill, has been made against an anti-war priest who was convicted and fined for advocating peace. ⬇️
    […]
    17/ Christian nationalism is a fundemental element of the ideology of Putinism. The Russian Orthodox Church has been engaged at all levels in legitimising the war.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  150. I’m simply not going to engage with you on the subject of the current spate of laws targeting gay and trans people, full stop.

    There aren’t enough drugs to compensate for the damage discussing them with you would do to my mental health.

    aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:04 am

    So when the left lies and stokes hate and violence you don’t think that’s tearing the nation apart or just refuse to engage?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  151. Lenin outlawed the Russian Orthodox Church after the Revolution.

    Stalin, who BTW was a seminarian, brought it back during WWII to add Christianity to the existing patriotic mix of Communism and Russian nationalism in the fight against the Nazis.

    It has been an instrument of the Soviet/Russian state since.

    nk (ff3b0e)

  152. That Red Sox pitcher link at 153 is definitely brain-damaging. But then, most PJMedia links are, these days.

    nk (ff3b0e)

  153. Wow, I’m watching Ramaswamy on State of the Union, who pledged he would pardon Trump on Day One. He’s not only foreign policy idjit on Putin’s War On Ukraine, he’s an idjit on the Presidential Records Act and Espionage Act.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  154. To paraphrase Laura Ingraham, shut up and pitch.
    The ballplayers are free to express themselves, and the team is free to come up to the player and say, “son, this is the toughest job a manager has…but…the organization wants to make a change”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  155. The new indictment has sparked a new feeding frenzy among Trump’s dung beetles (they don’t all qualify as “gold diggers” or “remoras”) to roll up as much as they can while the rolling’s good.

    nk (1bc244)

  156. What Matt Dermody tweeted: “#PrideMonth. Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. They will go to hell. This is not my opinion, but the #Truth. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9. May we all examine our hearts, ask Jesus to forgive us and repent of all our sins. I love you all in Christ Jesus!”

    AJ_Liberty (abc29a)

  157. “he would pardon Trump on Day One”

    If Ramaswamy doesn’t have a problem with Trump, he shouldn’t be running.

    R: “This indictment selectively omits facts & law and *wreaks* of politicization. The real question is whose invisible hand is guiding it. We will get to the bottom of it.”

    Trying to entertain those low-information GOP voters. How about tell the truth. Be a leader. And don’t presume you’re qualified for the Presidency because you’re rich. If you can’t tell the truth about Trump, what else are you lying about?

    AJ_Liberty (abc29a)

  158. @53

    If I were Jack Smith, I’d file a motion to strike Judge Cannon from the case.
    Her bias in the prior Trump case and the rebuke from the 11th Circuit should be enough to question her objectivity.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:58 pm

    Unfortunately, only Judge Cannon can do that herself.

    Such a motion will likely fail.

    whembly (d087cf)

  159. Also regarding Judge Cannon, if Trump’s lawyers (the ones who haven’t resigned) are smart about it, they’d request a bench trial.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  160. Yay capitalism, and go Thunder!

    I used to like you, Demosthenes. 😉

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  161. @152 & 153-

    It’s the Golden Rule-

    He has the gold makes the rules.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  162. @83

    Nevertheless, I still think her conducting State Department business on her home-brewed server rises to the level of “gross negligence”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:11 am

    Both are bad.

    I think on Trump’s case, it was an ego/cavaliere attitude on his part. He was the POTUS and felt it was his documents.

    In some ways, I think Clinton’s case was much worst. During her tenure as SoS, she ONLY had class/declass authority over her own agency’s documents. And she chose to do ALL of her email business at her UNCLAS address for both convenience and oversight avoidance.

    Furthermore, the whole argument that there were little to no classified documents found at her UNCLAS address is a lawyerly, specious argument. There were numerous communications from Clinton who instructed her staff to remove the markings and either print it (pls print) or send to her UNCLAS email. What this meant, was that she instructed her STAFF to break the law so that Clinton can conduct all of her business on her UNCLAS email address. It’s bizarre to me, that her staff went largely unscathed and it’s telling why her defends are insistent to make the argument that “no classified markings” weren’t found at her address.

    Having said all that, if you dispute my framing, let me put it this way, and I think it depends on an honest assessment if you thought she was competent at her job as SoS:

    We know, for a FACT, that she exclusively used her private email address to conduct her SoS duties. If everything was kosher, then how was she able to competently do her job, if there weren’t any classified spillage at her private email address?

    See where I’m going with?

    Can we at least, recognize the gaslighting here, in defense of Clinton?

    We can say Trump did a bad thing.

    Just as we can say Clinton did a bad thing.

    The fact that Clinton escaped justice, shouldn’t mean Trump should too. But, you’d have to deal with the two-tiered justice arguments to, and I’m not sure how we can ignore that isn’t happening too.

    whembly (d087cf)

  163. In the federal system, the government has a right to a jury trial same as the defense.

    nk (ff0779)

  164. @100

    This was a woman that understood that we could now communicate much faster, but really didn’t comprehend security issues and FOIA transparency requirements

    So, she accidentally stumbled up a setup that hid all her communications, was immune to 3rd party subpoena and erasable at her command, while refusing to use the government-provided devices? Because she was tech-phobic? This dog doesn’t hunt.

    She accomplished all her goals with this server and would never ever have delivered any of its contents to the government archives if she had not been caught.

    Having been caught, she played the clumsy victim of circumstance. Luckily for her, she was believed by her friends.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:03 pm

    Don’t forget, that every step of the way, the FBI allowed Clinton’s laywers to dictate what can be search and when.

    The FBI afforded immense deference towards Clinton, during the emails investigation. (with the understanding that she’s the likely next President).

    That’s another immense difference between Clinton and Trump.

    whembly (d087cf)

  165. @102

    I will accept that she did not set up the server. If there is a Hell, then programmers there spend all their time editing Sendmail config files for capricious users.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:07 pm

    She actually started with an old Apple server used in her foundation. That was switched to a homebrew server with MS Outlook, to handle the load and security.

    Wired did a story on this, (can’t find the article) and they were able to get to the admin logon screen from their office. ( I was able to, as well on the day of the publication ). If Wired and *I* can access the admin page, that means it was a “hot” server on the world wide web where ANYONE can try to brute force their way in. Nation states, obviously, had their way with it.

    whembly (d087cf)

  166. @105

    Luckily, these charges mean that 1) Trump will not be the nominee, 2) that Trump will not run 3rd Party, and 3) MAGA will support the GOP’s candidate.

    Why? Because Trump needs a pardon, and only another Republican can give him one. Besides the probable disallowance of a self-pardon, there is the unelectability issue. His best bet is for DeSantis (or whomever) to pardon him or commute whatever sentence.

    Unless, of course, the judge throws all the charges out.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:20 pm

    This is my hope how this ends as well. But, in my circle, those who voted for him are pissed and are talking about voting for him again out of spite of his opponents and what they see as a government persecution.

    I pray, that those sentiments dies down by the time the primaries rolls around. I’m trying like hell, to convince them to vote for DeSantis.

    whembly (d087cf)

  167. whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:09 am

    whembly, I think your argument would’ve been stronger had not the Tillerson State Department and Pompeo State Department not investigated her home-brewed server problem and, for all practical purposes, came up with rags.

    Also, we all know Trump is a petty and vindictive sumbich, yet he either didn’t or couldn’t persuade two Attorneys General to pursue her prosecution, despite all her whining and sour grapes about the manner of her defeat.

    I’m also a little bewildered, whembly, because read the first 31 counts of the indictment. Trump willfully and purposely kept nuclear secrets in a f-cking country club and then obstructed their return to its rightful owner, the US government, after a subpoena demanded their rightful return. I simply don’t see how that’s better than Hillary’s situation.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  168. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/06/case-closed-it-was-a-lab-leak.php

    The London Times report also documents dishonesty within the scientific community that was being funded by the U.S. government. The Wuhan lab created a coronavirus that was vastly more dangerous than covid-19, which fortunately has not yet escaped:

    There is zero doubt that Covid-19 came from a lab and was weaponized accordingly. There is no doubt those funding the lab knew so as well.

    The London Times has done a remarkable service in their linked article that everyone should read.

    NJRob (648286)

  169. Wow, I’m watching Ramaswamy on State of the Union

    He’s Deep Trump. Wait until Trump is charged with insurrection.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  170. Also regarding Judge Cannon, if Trump’s lawyers (the ones who haven’t resigned) are smart about it, they’d request a bench trial

    I think they’d be disappointed in the result.

    The things that a judge can do, as a judge, are what should worry us — exclude evidence, dismiss charges, sentence the guilty, etc.

    As a finder of fact, the law is pretty clear on what you cannot do with classified information. I don’t see Judge Cannon engaging in nullification as a jury might.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  171. The fact that Clinton escaped justice, shouldn’t mean Trump should too. But, you’d have to deal with the two-tiered justice arguments to, and I’m not sure how we can ignore that isn’t happening too.

    As I said, the inherent bias is a separate problem, and one that needs to be dealt with. Outside of the cultists, GOP politicians are NOT defending Trump but, as cover, amplifying the political part of the problem: DoJ bias.

    If you don’t believe that the Biden DoJ is biased, note that it has prosecuted several Trump aides for Contempt of Congress for refusing to testify in the J6 probe. Congress may well find Biden officials in Contempt in the near future, but it’s foolish to believe that the current DoJ will prosecute them.

    That is bias pure and simple.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  172. The Wuhan lab created a coronavirus that was vastly more dangerous than covid-19, which fortunately has not yet escaped

    That’s the War version. The trial version worked well, so it’s all tested and ready to “escape.”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  173. Kevin you’re begging the question there. “If you don’t believe the Biden DOJ is biased, just assume that they are and there’s your proof of bias!”

    That’s not to say they aren’t.

    Nate (1f1d55)

  174. A new CBS/YouGov poll finds:

    76% of likely Republican voters believe the indictment is politically motivated;

    38% don’t consider it a national security risk for Trump to possess classified information (compared to 80% of all voters who do);

    60% say the indictment won’t change their views about Trump (14% say it changes their view of Trump for the better); and

    80% said he should be able to run for President if convicted.

    And:

    Most GOP primary voters (61%) do not want to hear Trump himself talk about the legal cases and investigations against him, nor about what happened in the 2020 election (68%), ……… They’d rather him talk about the present or future: his plans for the country now.

    And if the nominee were someone other than Trump, they would prefer that person not talk about Trump at all, rather than show him loyalty.
    …………..
    Republican voters overwhelmingly say (74%) they’d like a candidate similar to him.

    And

    Of those identifying themselves as MAGA Republicans v. Non-MAGA:

    Find Common Ground With Democrats: 56/80
    ……….
    Investigate/Punish Democrats 35/10

    Importance of GOP presidential candidate to:

    Appeal to Independents/Moderates 41/55

    Motivate Republicans/Conservatives 59/45

    GOP Presidential Nomination:

    Trump 61%

    DeSantis 23%

    Pence 4%

    Haley 3%

    Scott 4%

    Who are you considering for the nomination-includes multiple responses:

    Trump 75%

    DeSantis 51%

    Scott 21%

    Pence 16%

    Haley 15%

    Ramaswamy 13%

    Elder 9%

    Christie 7%

    Hutchinson 6%

    Burgum 4%

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  175. prosecuted several Trump aides for Contempt of Congress

    I can think of only two: Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro. The DOJ didn’t pursue contempt charges against Mark Meadows or Dan Scavino.

    So it’s a split decision.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  176. Kevin you’re begging the question there. “If you don’t believe the Biden DOJ is biased, just assume that they are and there’s your proof of bias!”

    I’m sorry you read it that way, but that’s not what I said. The FBI is withholding “evidence” that a committee has subpoenaed and the Director may be found in Contempt. What I said is that I very much doubt the DoJ will prosecute the FBI Director like they did Trump aides.

    They could prove me wrong, but if they don’t, it’s clear bias. There is no assumption there at all. There is a bet — that I’m happy to take up at even odds.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  177. So it’s a split decision.

    Do you expect Wray to be indicted if Congress votes contempt? How many of the Obama officials who refused to testify were prosecuted? Zero is a hard number.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  178. “…The real question is whose invisible hand is guiding it. We will get to the bottom of it.”

    Translation: “I think Trump should get away with whatever he wants, even when he incriminates himself with his own words, in addition to his lawyers’ words, video, photos, texts, etc. … and therefore all the prosecutors, grand juries, judges, and legal analysts across the land who look at the evidence and say he appears to be quite guilty — even Bill Barr and Jonathan Turley — are being controlled by the invisible hand of the nefarious Deep State.”

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  179. Rip,

    That poll is taken in the heat of the moment and very few of the respondents have full information. But there are a few things to note when we get away from the raw meat questions:

    Most GOP primary voters (61%) do not want to hear Trump himself talk about the legal cases and investigations against him, nor about what happened in the 2020 election (68%), ……… They’d rather him talk about the present or future: his plans for the country now.

    And if the nominee were someone other than Trump, they would prefer that person not talk about Trump at all, rather than show him loyalty.

    This shows that many are dissatisfied with Trump’s 2020 focus and would prefer to ignore his legal problems. They also want to be done with a Trump-centric world, as would we all.

    They may say that they’d want Trump to be the nominee if imprisoned, but that’s just bluster. These are people who would rather lose badly than admit they were wrong.

    I suspect that the dead-enders were far more available to pollsters than the terribly-disappointed.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  180. Translation: “I think Trump should get away with whatever he wants

    What is really scary here is the thought that this kind of thing might become accepted and Presidents become Kings, acting by divine right. Even ex-Presidents.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  181. > https://www.dailywire.com/news/blue-jays-cut-pitcher-who-apologized-for-sharing-video-on-bud-light-target-boycotts

    A canadian company fired someone prominently associated with the company for engaging in public political protest the company doesn’t want to be identified with in the public mind.

    The last thing they want is for someone to think the *Blue Jays* have endorsed boycotts in one direction or another.

    I’m currently involved in organizing a mass protest-shutdown on reddit, and if I dragged my employer’s name into it, it would *violate my employment contract* and I could be disciplined or fired. How is this different?

    aphrael (087fb1)

  182. > https://pjmedia.com/culture/robert-spencer/2023/06/09/red-sox-pitcher-cut-loose-after-offending-the-thought-police-n1701991

    Here, the Red Sox are clearly in the wrong, firing someone for something he said *before they hired him* which they could and should have known about before they hired him.

    It’s particularly offensive because he’d deleted the tweet, which more or less renders it invisible.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  183. > who pledged he would pardon Trump on Day One.

    Any successful Republican candidate for President will make the same promise.

    National security doesn’t matter when it comes to Trump; he can get away with anything, because his supporters immediately believe any criticism of him is motivated by animus against them.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  184. > We know, for a FACT, that she exclusively used her private email address to conduct her SoS duties.

    We also know that both of her immediate predecessors (Rice and Powell) maintained their own servers and routed email through them, and that there was no effort to criticize or punish them for it.

    Which is part of why the whole issue has always landed as massively politically motivated for me.

    Surely the standard should be the same for all three?

    aphrael (087fb1)

  185. > Trump willfully and purposely kept nuclear secrets in a f-cking country club and then obstructed their return to its rightful owner, the US government, after a subpoena demanded their rightful return.

    Right? How anyone can defend this as *ok* is beyond me.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  186. > don’t consider it a national security risk for Trump to possess classified information

    I’m not sure I consider it a risk per se for Trump to possess classified information, but for him to store it the way he did is *absolutely* a risk.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  187. What is really scary here is the thought that this kind of thing might become accepted and Presidents become Kings,

    When Trumpites speak of “democratic accountability” they mean unquestioning obedience to the Duly Elected President– as long as it’s someone they like.

    They’ll raise legitimate complaints about bureaucratic agencies wielding legislative and judicial powers in addition to their executive function, and sometimes undermining a Republican president’s agenda. But they’ve tied their “drain the swamp” project to someone with very open dictator envy and a manifest belief that his will cannot ever be wrong and whatever he does is always perfect, so any resistance or accusation of wrongdoing against him is evil. Trumpites echo his psychopathology when they bluster in outrage that their hero is being held accountable for serious violations of law.

    Then there are the Trumpites who more overtly long for a king — the ones who have defended Putin and suggested that the Russian model is the answer to what they dislike about America today.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  188. They also want to be done with a Trump-centric world, as would we all.

    Which doesn’t explain why 75% of respondents say the are considering voting for Trump, far more than anyone else.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  189. That poll is taken in the heat of the moment and very few of the respondents have full information.

    We’ll see what the numbers are next month and through the summer. I suspect Trump will be above 50%.

    As to their opinion about Trump’s handling of classified information and their view of the indictment, I think it’s pretty clear.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  190. his supporters immediately believe any criticism of him is motivated by animus against them

    Trump’s biggest con is getting millions to believe that whatever he does is for their sake — so whatever hurts him actually hurts them. I don’t credit him for genius in doing so; I blame the gullibility of those who have turned off whatever discernment they might possess because they so want a bold and brazen hero to beat up their enemies.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  191. We also know that both of her immediate predecessors (Rice and Powell) maintained their own servers and routed email through them, and that there was no effort to criticize or punish them for it.

    Which makes the government records rules bad law. Bad law should be rigorously enforced on everyone so that it gets changed. Instead, we trot it out when we need a club to use and blather about “the Rule of Law.”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  192. I’m not sure I consider it a risk per se for Trump to possess classified information

    For example, in his head.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  193. Do you expect Wray to be indicted if Congress votes contempt? ……

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:23 am

    No, because the House has cancelled a vote on contempt.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  194. his supporters immediately believe any criticism of him is motivated by animus against them

    Huey Long had this kind of following, too.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  195. I’m not sure I consider it a risk per se for Trump to possess classified information, …

    I think it is a risk pe se, given his incomprehension of why things need to be kept secret. That Oval Office meeting with Lavrov was an early warning that Trump’s possession of classified information is itself a risk to said information.

    It’s darkly amusing now to think back to the time shortly after Obama was elected and he began to get intelligence briefings. Right-wing media outlets were abuzz with sky-is-falling alarm: Who knows what evil forces will soon be getting our nation’s secrets!

    But it wasn’t during Obama’s presidency that our foreign intelligence assets started being killed or captured in alarming numbers. It was during the presidency of Donald J. Trump, with his exceedingly great love of America and his innate wisdom for putting America First.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  196. > When Trumpites speak of “democratic accountability” they mean unquestioning obedience to the Duly Elected President– as long as it’s someone they like.

    Bingo.

    This is why Trump (and his fanbois) are the biggest threat to the Republic since the civil war.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  197. Congress needs to create an independent office to conduct contempt investigations and prosecutions. Just as a Democratic administration won’t prosecute Democrats, a Republican administration wouldn’t prosecute Republicans accused of contempt.

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  198. DeSantis: “We have for years witnessed an uneven application of the law depending upon political affiliation.”

    As a lawyer, DeSantis….like prosecutors like Hutchinson and Christie, and attorney generals like Barr and Gonzales….should be able to rise above cheap partisanship and recognize the seriousness of the charges and call for Trump to leave the race.

    Haley: “The American people are exhausted by the prosecutorial overreach, double standards, and vendetta politics.”

    No, we’re exhausted by the lack of leadership in the GOP. This isn’t Jack Smith’s fault. This is all self inflicted by Trump. If the allegations here don’t concern you about the fitness of Trump as being the chief law enforcement officer in the country, then you shouldn’t be running for the office

    Charlie Kirk ” [the other candidates] should suspend their campaign and go to Miami as a show of support.”

    Dear God…if they do that, they should permanently suspend their campaigns. As always, it comes back to people who aren’t very good…

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  199. ABC News/Ipsos Poll 6/11/23:

    ……….
    (According to the poll) nearly half — 48% — of Americans think Trump should have been charged in this case, whereas 35% think he should not have been and 17% saying they do not know…….

    Republicans remain mostly loyal to Trump, with two in three (67%) saying the former president and current frontrunner for the Republican nomination should not have been charged. Independents are more divided, with 45% believing he should have been charged, a third saying he should not have been, and 22% saying they don’t know.

    Overall, a solid majority of over three in five Americans find the charges either very (42%) or somewhat serious (19%), while only 28% of the public say it’s not too serious or not serious at all. One in ten say they don’t know. ……….. (H)alf of Republicans find them to be not too serious or not serious at all. A majority of independents (63%) find the charges very or somewhat serious, while 38% say they are not too serious or not serious at all.
    …………
    ………… 47% of the public believe the charges against Trump are politically motivated. Nearly two in five (37%) say they are not, and 16% don’t know. Most Republicans (80%) align with that view, with only a sliver (9%) believing the charges were not based on politics. Around one in 10 Republicans aren’t sure. ………..
    ………….
    ………….A plurality of the public (46%) say Trump should suspend his bid for the White House, while 38% say he should not, and 16% don’t know.
    …………
    ………… This ABC News/Ipsos survey finds that Republicans who identify as evangelical or born again are actually more numerically favorable (69%) to Trump than Republicans who do not identify as evangelical or born again (61%.) And there is virtually no difference in attitudes towards the charges among the different sub-groups that comprise Republican identifiers.
    …………..,

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  200. For years I have railed about Trump’s lack of interest in learning how government functions, processes, and procedures (including handling classified docs), political philosophies, history, or governance in general. Now I realize it wouldn’t have mattered. He was always going to do whatever he wanted, no matter what he was told. And the scale upon which he measured whether something was permissible has always been a simple one: do I want to do X or not? Ithas never been about the legality of a decision, the ethics of a decision, or the Constitutionality of a decision. It has always been motivated by a childish needs to satisfy himself. He is his utmost concern. Not the American people, not the rule of law, not the Constitution, and certainly not any traditions that have formed the cornerstone of government. I don’t think Americans have ever had such a blunt red-flag cautionary tale on repeat for as long as we’ve had Trump. That his cheap hype and endless lies still hold sway with so many voters is as dismaying as is the possibility of him once again becoming the Republican nominee.

    Dana (560c99)

  201. Ouch!

    …………
    (Former Attorney General Bill Barr) was asked by “Fox News Sunday” host Shannon Bream to respond to comparisons of Trump leaving the White House with classified documents to former Presidents Clinton and Obama, and President Biden when he was vice president.

    “So, there are two big lies, I think, that are out there right now,” Barr said. “One is all these other presidents took all these documents. Those were situations where they arranged with the archives to set up special space under the management, control, and security provided by the archivists to temporarily put documents until the libraries were ready. These were not people just putting them in their basement, OK.”

    The second lie, according to Barr, is the notion that a president has “complete authority” to declare any document “personal.”

    “It’s facially ridiculous. That opinion had to do with the distinction between official records, which are records prepared by government agencies for the purpose of government action, and personal documents, as opposed to official documents, which are things prepared by the President, such as a diary or notes, which are not used in the government’s deliberations,” Barr said.
    ………….
    “The president has some discretion, but these are official documents. It’s inarguable the President’s daily brief provided by the intelligence community is not Donald J. Trump’s personal document, period,” Barr said.
    …………

    Rip Murdock (aed69e)

  202. More Ouch!

    ……….
    “If even half of [the indictment] is true then he’s toast. It’s a very detailed indictment, and it’s very, very damning,” Barr said.

    “This idea of presenting Trump as a victim here–the victim of a witch hunt–is ridiculous. Yes, he’s been a victim in the past. Yes his adversaries have obsessively pursued him with phony claims, and I’ve been at his side defending him when he is a victim, but this is much different. He’s not a victim here,” Barr added. “He was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents. Those documents are among the most sensitive secrets the country has.”
    …………

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  203. Dana, yeah, the impulsiveness weakly checked in a second term, coupled with promises of retribution, ought to frighten the bejesus out of people. Yet, I tend to get these pollyannaish assurances that opportunism and loyalty to country will check Trump’s excesses. I just think this is so wrong and antithetical to conservative instincts. I’m running out of adjectives. It’s like watching an impending freeway multi-car accident in slow motion. Why don’t we want to avoid this. How weak and small have we become?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  204. “The president has some discretion, but these are official documents. It’s inarguable the President’s daily brief provided by the intelligence community is not Donald J. Trump’s personal document, period,” Barr said.

    We are not just talking about love letters from Kim Jong Un. We are talking about our nuclear capabilities and strategic vulnerabilities…and how we strategize battle plans against adversaries. And these weren’t stashed and forgotten, but willfully moved for purpose of evasion, following stalls and lies. DeSantis, Haley, and Scott don’t want to deal with this forthrightly. This IS their reason for running. The fact that they can’t get there is pathetic (OK, I had one more adjective). An ex-president can’t just hold onto these secrets OR, in my opinion, unilaterally…absent any process…declassify things without the defense department and intelligence agencies readying a damage response. It can’t be the way we operate….it just can’t be.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  205. That his cheap hype and endless lies still hold sway with so many voters is as dismaying as is the possibility of him once again becoming the Republican nominee.

    Lately, whenever I feel down on myself — which is usually several times a day — I think “At least I was never deluded about who Trump is.” I recognized the malignant narcissism, and I understood that it was likely to be more dangerous to America than a presidential term of policies I don’t agree with.

    Trump’s preemptive rejection of the legitimacy of an election loss followed by his extraordinary efforts to stay in power unlawfully should have disabused the educated apologists who would point to policy decisions they like and say, “See, you were all wrong about him!” But most of them instead parroted his “rigged election!” mantra and echoed his view that any system that goes against Trump is corrupt.

    It’s mostly the same when we have abundant evidence that he willfully, repeatedly defied the law regarding national-security secrets and even casually exposed them to people not authorized to see or hear them. From his own mouth we get the sociopathic “It’s All Mine!!” rationale, along with a variety of absurd and self-contradictory excuses. But the elite thinkers of MAGA-land dig deeper into their self-delusion and cling to the idea that they were always right in seeing an honest and wise super-patriot beneath the unpolished “style,” while his critics were all revealing themselves to be Deep State hacks and traitors.

    Actually, Never Trump was always right.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  206. Radegunda (16fcbd) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:14 pm

    “I will prevent World War III. … Without me, it will happen, … I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”

    Nobody else says things like that because nobody else in public life is such a deranged, off-the-charts narcissist. And if he possesses the magical key to preventing nuclear war, why the heck won’t he tell anyone the secret before it’s too late?

    His cult followers are so moronic that they believe his inanities.

    I don’t think Trump can believe that, although he could come up with an argument as to how, if Ukraine is not handled correctly, it could lead to World War III – at least Putin sometimes pretends it could. And he can claim he’s the only one who has insight into what can avoid triggering it, or he is the only one who would follow the particular policy or approach he would. Nobody is going to get into the details.

    In reality, he has to think, it’s not likely, especially after more than a year of war.

    They whoop and cheer when he claims that he could end the Ukraine war within 24 hours, and they never ask “how?” Much less, “Why don’t you divulge your secret plan so the killing and dying can end tomorrow?”

    Oh, he could say, I can’t describe it – it’s like identifying people or planes. It’s not something that can be taught, except by example, and then the other person has to catch on. But he’s just making empty claims.

    What’s weirder is how many people buy into his own preposterously inflated sense of his own exceptional genius and totally faultless character. It’s like a form of mass psychosis.

    I don’t know how many people who cheer are actually paying any attention to what he says. They are just cheering him on on the basis that he has the right assumptions.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  207. even casually exposed them [secrets] to people not authorized to see or hear them.

    He didn’t do that.

    In the only two instances cited in the indictment, he basically tells people that he has something in his hand and he wishes he could show it to them, but he can’t. “It’s secret” or “Don’t look too closely at the map” (of Afghanistan??)

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  208. Waktine (Walt) Nauta was indicted because he lied to investigators (maybe contradicting himself or saying he didn’t know ehether he moved boxes) and later wouldn’t co-operate.

    But I don’t think he knew that the reason Trump ordered him to take boxes out of the storage room was to hide them from his lawyers (and subsequently the FBI etc)

    There’s a text message exchange with Melania in which she tells himm that there won’t be enough room on the plane to take them all with them to Bedminster, New Jersey and he says that he thinks that Donald Trump only wants to go looking through them and pick things out, (on second thought maybe he did know why Trump wanted to search them. That would necessitate Nauta knowing the reason for all this.)

    This was on Memorial Day 2022, [Happy Memorial Day, Melania texts him] shortly before Trump planned to leave Mar-a-Lago for the summer and also before Corcoran was going to do a diligent search and people from the government were going to come…

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  209. I don’t think Trump can believe that,

    Once again, we have the “Trump didn’t really mean the insane things he said” parsing.

    When Trump says the same ridiculous or plainly counterfactual thing repeatedly, who knows whether, deep down, he really, truly believes it? The salient point is that he believes it’s rational to SAY things that are plainly ludicrous or false.

    When he said “Nobody reads the Bible more than me,” did he really believe it? Which means he’s completely divorced from reality. Or did he just think “This sounds good, so I’ll say it even though I haven’t opened a Bible in decades”? Which means he’s comfortable with being grossly mendacious.

    Take your pick.
    TBH, it’s probably both.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  210. > We know, for a FACT, that she exclusively used her private email address to conduct her SoS duties.

    No,, she didn’t.

    She did everything orally, without leaving any kind of a record. There’s nothing for instance about her reaction to the “talking points” on Benghazi.

    She acted through her top aides,

    There are some classified transcripts of conversation with foreign officials.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  211. He didn’t do that.

    The tapes don’t confirm that no information was divulged to others. Showing someone a document and saying “don’t get too close” is certainly getting up to the line, if not over it.
    We also have the incident of Trump showing something to Kid Rock, who thought “Whoa, should I be seeing this?”
    And the incident with Lavrov.

    And that’s only what we have evidence of. But there’s no doubt that intelligence briefers (and some White House aides) were concerned about what Trump might carelessly spill.
    There’s also the fact that our foreign intelligence assets were at extraordinary risk after Trump got into power.

    And there’s Trump’s open claim, to Hannity, that he had the right to show anything to anyone he wanted.

    The weight of the evidence says:
    Trump doesn’t really comprehend the imperative of keeping things secret.
    Trump’s extreme narcissism makes him think he should be able to do whatever he wants with impunity.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  212. Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:39 pm

    The salient point is that he believes it’s rational to SAY things that are plainly ludicrous or false.

    Yes, yes. I believe Trump lies, but he’s not insane.

    Believing it is rational to SAY some things might be a lower form of insanity, though.

    When he said “Nobody reads the Bible more than me,” did he really believe it?

    Of course not.

    Which means he’s completely divorced from reality. Or did he just .

    lie.

    Which means he’s comfortable with being grossly mendacious.

    Take your pick.
    TBH, it’s probably both.

    The second, except he may have a bad (or perhaps overoptimistic) opinion of what lies are plausible.

    He rarely tells a lie that somebody else has not said before.

    And some lies, I feel, he just feels locked into into.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  213. Sometimes he takes out lies for a test drive, and then drops them without anyone remembering that he said it.

    Like the time he said in a Republican presidential debate in 2015 (it passed muster with Marco Rubio and CArly Fiorina but it got caught online) that he got to know Vladimir Putim very well because they were once on the same episode of 60 Minutes, (60 Minutes is not live)

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  214. No way Trump could ever have believed, not only that he won the 2020 election, but that everybody believed that! Which he said more than once..

    He’s not crazy, Or he’s only a lesser degree of crazy, in believing, not his untruthful statements, but that (enough) other people will.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  215. He rarely tells a lie that somebody else has not said before.

    Oh wow. So that makes it okay then?

    And some lies, I feel, he just feels locked into into.

    Poor Donald just can’t help lying. We must pity him, not condemn him!

    If Trump is just so hopelessly locked into chronic lying, let’s not make in president again.

    Radegunda (7ee118)

  216. NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:18 am

    Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.

    Since when do you believe that Joe Biden tells the truth?

    HE LIED about getting the prosecutor fired.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  217. And Hunter Biden was put on the board in order to convince people in Ukraine that the fix was in because they would think the U.S would prevent an investigation of Burisma.

    And the ultimate notional recipient of the bribe has to been Obama. not thee vice president,

    Except that Obama was not running a political machine.

    Sammy Finkelman (840213)

  218. In other news:

    Ted Kaczinksi (the Unabomber) commits suicide early Saturday after midnight in Butner, North Carolina medical prison (possibly because of failing health)

    Vigilantes in Haiti murder gang members terrorizing the population starting April 24.

    Massive arrests and civil liberties violation in El Salvador end MS-13 terror

    Presidential candidate removed from ballot in Guatemala

    Ethnic war probably instigated by BJP in northern India.

    Sammy Finkelman (1c1935)

  219. Why Trump was charged on secret documents and Clinton, Pence were not
    …………
    …………(T)he Trump indictment itself helps explain the difference between his case and other high-profile probes, like those of Hillary Clinton, President Biden and former vice president Mike Pence — not for what it charges, but for what it doesn’t.
    …………..
    Inside the boxes (returned to the National Archives), archivists found 197 classified documents, some extremely sensitive, the government alleged in court filings. That discovery set in motion the chain of events that led to the unsealing Friday of a 38-count indictment against Trump and Walt Nauta, a trusted servant.

    Notably, however, the indictment does not charge Trump with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
    ………..
    “This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said (Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor), who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.

    As a presidential candidate running against Clinton in 2016, he had railed against her use of a personal email server to conduct government business while serving as secretary of state — an arrangement that led to classified information being shared on a nonclassified, nongovernment computer server. Clinton’s case was also different from Trump’s in another key respect: While the email chains discussed classified topics, they were not classified documents in the traditional sense, with extensive markings and acronyms.
    ………….
    “I really don’t think there’s any plausible comparison between the Trump case and the Hillary Clinton case,” said Robert Kelner, a veteran D.C. attorney. “The key difference is that in the Hillary Clinton case, as we learned from the Department of Justice inspector general report, there was no evidence that Hillary Clinton sought to obstruct justice. … The focus of the Trump indictment is on his rather stark effort to obstruct justice. That’s the fundamental difference.”

    Kelner is critical of how the FBI handled aspects of the Clinton case, arguing that at times, the agency pulled punches when it came to investigating the conduct of some of those around her. But he said those criticisms do not change the fact that Trump appears to have repeatedly tried to keep documents he could not legally have, while Clinton did not.
    ………….
    Comparing the Trump indictment to the ongoing investigation of Biden is more difficult, partly because fewer facts are known about the current president’s possession of classified documents when he was out of office.
    …………
    The Pence case also points to the key distinction in the national security probes involving presidents, former top officials or presidential candidates — that it is not so much what is taken, but what is kept. Just a week before the Trump indictment, the Justice Department notified Pence it had closed an investigation into whether he mishandled classified information.
    …………
    ………… The FBI search (of Pence’s home) turned up one additional classified document, according to an adviser.

    All the materials were quickly turned over to government authorities, Pence’s lawyer said.
    …………….

    Related:

    The Justice Department has closed its investigation into the possible mishandling of classified documents found at former Vice President Mike Pence’s home and will not bring any charges, according to a letter from the DOJ obtained by CNN.
    ……………
    “The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department’s National Security Division have conducted an investigation into the potential mishandling of classified information,” the Justice Department wrote to Pence’s attorney. “Based on the results of that investigation, no criminal charges will be sought.”
    ………….
    Pence’s advisers say they felt the former vice president’s discovery of classified documents stood in stark contrast to Trump’s, both in terms of the original process Pence’s team followed when his documents were packed up at the end of the Trump administration – when a small number of classified papers were accidentally packed – and Pence’s immediate cooperation with the FBI and the National Archives.
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  220. He didn’t do that.

    Yes, he did do that, Sammy. Read the indictment, specifically Item 6, which starts like this…

    6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others…

    Then go to Items 34 and 35 for more detail.

    I recommend that anyone who wants to talk about the prosecution to please read the indictment.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  221. Regarding Kaczynski

    Unabomber cellmate probably relieved he doesn’t have to hear about “being from Harvard” anymore.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  222. Mike Martin on the UKR counteroffensive. We may be hearing more about Tokmak, a Russian-occupied rail hub which may not be Russian-occupied much longer.
    Also, Putin just nationalized all Russian private military contractors, which may or may not include the Wagner Group. Shoigu wins.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  223. The reason I’m not optimistic about getting to the bottom of the Hunter Biden/Joe Biden mess in Ukraine is that the Secret Service has gone out of its way in the past to tidy up after the Biden’s. Hunter Biden said the Secret Service went to pick up his gun from a trash can across from a school and the Secret Service said it must have been done as a favor (or by off duty Secret Service) Someone(s) who identified themselves as Secret Service went to the gun shop where Hunter bought the gun and asked for the paperwork. Again it could have been off duty Secret Service who were not above flashing credentials. This goes well beyond the scope of their mission. So we have two first hand accounts of people running interference for the Biden’s, one from Hunter himself, and the second from the gun shop owner.

    steveg (083148)

  224. There’s a PGA-LIV metaphor in there somewhere between the security guard and the PGA winner cracking open a bottle of bubbly.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  225. This is why Trump (and his fanbois) are the biggest threat to the Republic since the civil war.

    I doubt it. At least as far as the long-term is considered. Trump’s power is diminishing, soon to be gone. He will spend the rest of his life surrounded by defense lawyers and such of his rubes as he can tolerate.

    The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it. Once he doesn’t get the nomination, and finds himself beholden to whoever does get it for his future, his obit can be written.

    The nation has been saved numerous times. Lincoln. Wilson’s stroke. Huey Long’s assassination. Even FDR’s decent into Socialism was stopped abruptly by war.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  226. No, we’re exhausted by the lack of leadership in the GOP. This isn’t Jack Smith’s fault. This is all self inflicted by Trump. If the allegations here don’t concern you about the fitness of Trump as being the chief law enforcement officer in the country, then you shouldn’t be running for the office

    You’ve got mart of this right — it’s inflicted by Trump.

    But I’m pretty sure they are all concerned. They just freeze whenever they remember that without MAGA Republicans they don’t have the votes to win. It’s like a business hit by a strike by the Teamsters. Sure they can try to run with other employees, but it’s not sustainable. Or very safe.

    The Democrats may play all holier-than-thou, but they don’t need (and can’t get) the MAGA votes. If they thought they could they’d be nicer to Trump. So, that’s not principle they are standing on, it’s a sign that says “try not to laugh.”

    Really the only was to get past this is for Trump to give up. I wish that this had been Judge Sirica, not Judge Judy.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  227. Question: Except for Ratsaswarmy, has any candidate actually supported Trump’s actions, or called for the charges to be dropped. No, They are instead talking about the bias inherent in the DoJ at the top, and in the entire bureaucracy in general.

    THIS DOES NOT HELP TRUMP.

    Instead, it give the impression of siding with Trump when they are doing nothing of the sort. Instead they are scoring points for their side, bankable by whoever the nominee is.

    Trump is left slowly twisting in the wind. An outcome I favor.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  228. Just made my first political contribution in while. $1 to get Chris Christie on the debate stage.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  229. “The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it.”

    We haven’t seen the evidence yet. We now have sworn representatives talking about war

    Andy Biggs: “We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye.”

    DeSantis, Haley, and Scott can’t quite bring themselves to declare that Trump is a dead end of losing and that he’s too unstable to effectively lead. The GOP has made Trump into a symbol. If none of the candidates seem to be able to move on, how do we expect the people? They will keep following loser narratives because they’ve been conditioned to do so. People love conspiracies and blaming the other tribe. I expect an awful 17months.

    AJ_Liberty (d80aac)

  230. “The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it.”

    I don’t see any signs of them becoming aware of this. Given how the House members responded to the indictment, it doesn’t seem likely.

    Dana (560c99)

  231. Kevin M – I think at this point if Trump goes down for this, his fall becomes the Dolchstosslegende that justifies the next generation of angry attempts to overthrow the Republic.

    aphrael (087fb1)

  232. The don’t really want to overthrow the Republic, they want to save it. See the difference?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  233. Given how the House members responded to the indictment

    The half-dozen usual suspects? Which of them argued that Trump was acting rightly?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  234. As long as we are looking at politicians and their principles, tell me how many Democrats voted for Bill Clinton to be impeached for perjury. Their votes were recorded, you know.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  235. Andy Biggs: “We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye.”

    Please, can we stop pretending that these Klansmen represent the GOP? They aren’t even the horse’s ass, they are the stuff hanging out of the horse’s ass.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  236. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 4:43 pm

    Too funny! 😂

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  237. The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it.

    The part agree with; the second assumes facts not in evidence.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  238. We hear hyperbole all the time, from both sides. But if you peruse the indictment and think about the facts of the situation, it’s kind of chilling. There’s something pathologically wrong with Trump.

    What responsible leader would take and actively keep from being retrieved highly classified documents “regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack.”? He doesn’t grasp that nuclear secrets aren’t HIS secrets, and he doesn’t get to play keep-away because he bizarrely likes to flaunt them to visitors.

    And the fact that this information was in storerooms, the bathroom, and banquet halls makes me wonder, what was he thinking? What kind of legal advice was he getting and why weren’t his closest advisors/associates helping him understand how he NEEDED to resolve this. Again, there’s something wrong with this guy…and there’s something wrong that the GOP’s leaders can only talk about “prosecutorial overreach” and “double standards”. This perpetuates the problem with the basem, because they could look and say “Hey, DeSantis, Haley, and Scott” aren’t calling for him to drop out. They’re not saying this is a serious problem. They’re blaming the prosecutor!”

    They’re not clearing him but they are providing cover. How is it not the message that the base is getting?

    AJ_Liberty (d80aac)

  239. Please, can we stop pretending that these Klansmen represent the GOP? They aren’t even the horse’s ass, they are the stuff hanging out of the horse’s ass.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:42 pm

    Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t you argue at one point that George Santos shouldn’t be forced out because he was elected to represent his constituents?

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  240. What an interesting coincidence. Trump calls on his trumpsters to strike back and a fuel tanker truck just happens to catch fire under the I-95 bridge bringing east coast traffic to a halt in liberal democrat north east. I wonder what “other” coincidences we will see next?

    asset (af23c0)

  241. Please, can we stop pretending that these Klansmen represent the GOP? They aren’t even the horse’s ass, they are the stuff hanging out of the horse’s ass.

    People like Biggs, Gaetz, Boebert, MTG et. al do represent a powerful faction of the Republican Party. Just ask Speaker McCarthy.

    Rip Murdock (6f4bcc)

  242. @153 far to many lgbtq people have been killed by so called christians acting out the bible. At least the blue jays didn’t tie him to a fence and set him on fire. Rememberthe pulce and other gay places.

    asset (af23c0)

  243. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t you argue at one point that George Santos shouldn’t be forced out because he was elected to represent his constituents?

    You are wrong. He was a fraud. I may have made that statement about MTG (or AOC). Klansmen can still vote and are entitled to reps. They just don’t speak for the entire party.

    (And before asset objects, AOC is indeed a klansman, just as Antifa is the Klan).

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  244. At least the blue jays didn’t tie him to a fence and set him on fire.

    There are so so many instances that you can only think of one that’s, what, 20 years old? 30?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  245. @162 Why? then trumpsters couldn’t snick on the jury and trying to keep them off could lead to mistrial or worse. Also obscure person could becoe famous for hung jury. Floriduh or D.C. jury pool.

    asset (af23c0)

  246. Just ask Speaker McCarthy.

    Any group with five votes can get him out of bed at 4AM. What a terrible wet noodle he is. If he had a pair, he would pick someone and expel them. OF course the Dems would leave him hanging. What a schmuck.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  247. In the movie mcclintock the wealthy villain says mr. mcclintock (john 4-f in ww II wayne) is a man who respects the law I am a man who buys it! Economic libertarian conservatives which most of you are like bill buckley depend on respect for the law and democratic norms such as follow the golden rule: those with the gold rule! Otherwise your ideological house of cards comes tumbling down when met by brute force from populists and the left. The left developed the communist cell to take heavy casulties and keep on fighting asking people to try and hold out for 24 hours un torture. Both the trump populists and the left consider non-violence a tactic to be used when useful not a basic tenet of our ideology like libertarian economic capitalism does. As lenin said the capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them.

    asset (af23c0)

  248. @247 I can google plenty more like 2022 detroit man convicted of killing two gays. If you want more google it. You didn’t mention pulse or other gay places where gays were massacred.

    asset (af23c0)

  249. Was the Detroit case the one where blood seeped out of the walls?

    steveg (4db6f7)

  250. @250.

    Both the trump populists and the left consider non-violence a tactic to be used when useful not a basic tenet of our ideology like libertarian economic capitalism does. As lenin said the capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them.

    Your endorsement of violence to resolve political disagreement is contemptible. It’s no surprise you consider your leftist brethren comparable to the Trumpists waving to you from the other tip of the horseshoe. Your means are equally lawless and anti-American.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  251. According the the FBI, the Pulse shooter was unaware that the Pulse nightclub was a gay bar.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  252. Some gay men and transexuals engage in some of the riskiest sexual behaviors. Not justifying the violence in any way, but I do wish they’d be more careful.

    steveg (4db6f7)

  253. Kevin, can you link to where the FBI said he didn’t know it was a gay club? I hadn’t seen that but would be interested in knowing that’s true.

    Nate (1f1d55)

  254. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-evidence-so-far-to-suggest-orlando-shooter-targeted-club-because-it-was-gay/2016/07/14/a7528674-4907-11e6-acbc-4d4870a079da_story.html

    Other sources that say similar things point out that the shooters first choice was Disney World where he was on video turning around and leaving when he saw the security, there was no cell phone or security video found of the shooter visiting Pulse in the months before the shooting (even though some guy claimed he’d seen the shooter there before, no proof of that was ever found). They said that the shooter googled “nightclubs” not “gay nightclubs” and Pulse came up as the number #1. So it may not be 100% correct to say that the shooter did not know it was a gay nightclub at any point before he died, but there was plenty of evidence that showed he’d not searched for a gay club.

    If you want to dig into it, go into the trial of the wife in 2018. The FBI had 2 years to investigate the crime and the hype had died down by then (although it is still considered heresy to point out the facts). I believe that it was during the prosecution of the wife in 2018 that brought up that the Pulse was not chosen because it was a gay nightclub

    steveg (4db6f7)

  255. So, will Trump’s troops show up at the Miami courthouse and go all J6 on it? Unlike DC, Florida is “constitutional carry.”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  256. The thing I took away from Pulse nightclub was that the guy was a radicalized militant Islamist, so it was a terrorist attack on American soil. Whether gay bar or no, still a terrorist attack, with lots of Allahu Akhbars thrown in.
    I can’t remember what happened to the wife, but her hands weren’t clean.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  257. @253 Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolution inevitable. JFK. is he contemptable? Patrick henry? Rosa parks was committing a lawless act when she refused to give up her bus seat to a white man. John brown was committing a lawless act when he tried to free the slaves. The americans at lexington green were committing a lawless act when they faced the red coats. The anti-war and black lives protesters were committing a lawless act when they sat down in the streets. Were both populists Bernie/trump. And like violence were american as cherry pie! H. rap brown.

    asset (af23c0)

  258. Does the f.b.i. speak for the guy who attacked the pulse ;however that is only one and their have been many attacks. Who would believe the f.b.i. anyway? I never did in 74 years and you conservatives used to worship j. edgar hoover.

    asset (af23c0)

  259. @261. Yup, if there’s one thing you, the J6 insurrectionists, and the recently departed Unibomber agree on, it’s that the ends justify the means. And how dare you claim Rosa Parks as an exemplar of your violent project? Her act of civil disobedience and acceptance of the punishment that inevitably followed were the opposite of violent protest.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  260. the supporters of mr. former president donald trump, who can do a full-head comb-over with fewer hairs than any sitting president in the history of america, are people of high moral values and strict sensibilities

    that is well known

    that is why they criticize those icky transies and gaysies

    because they, themselves, are like, you know, good

    nk (9ef280)

  261. lurker: “Your means are equally lawless and anti-American.”

    Yes, asset’s subtle and not-so-subtle embrace of violence….as he places everyone in tidy little ideological boxes…is indeed contemptible. Rationalizing and encouraging violence to secure political ends and then using Rosa Parks and JFK to defend it is confused reasoning. Encouraging minorities to arm and kill people for revolution is disgusting. I get that like DCSCA he comes here to push buttons and get reactions….and so I generally ignore his stuff because it IS lawless and un-American…but I would hate for one person to be pushed to violence because of it….

    AJ_Liberty (d80aac)

  262. yes, yes, mr. asset should dream of embracing ms. aoc, not violence

    but not regale with dreams, either

    please

    nk (6c45b4)

  263. that is what i like about mr. former president donald trump, who never has a second cup of coffee at home, honestly

    his final battle will be pointing at armageddon (it’s a mountain you know) and saying that trump tower is taller

    nk (6c45b4)

  264. but not regale with *those* dreams, either

    nk (6c45b4)

  265. You know what the real horror about a second Trump term is? We’ve forgotten already.

    It’s THIS. The constant and overwhelming presence he carves out of our lives through his need for all the oxygen in the country. Every day we will be listening to some Tweetstorm, or dealing with yet another nutbar executive order, or someone else screaming about what the Orange Man did.

    Eventually, we will have no choice but to elect enough Democrat Senators to convict him in one of his several impeachments. Not that it would be without consequence.

    Pray for the Secret Service, whose job it is to stand between Trump and bullets.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  266. The constant and overwhelming presence he carves out of our lives through his need for all the oxygen in the country. Every day we will be listening to some Tweetstorm, or dealing with yet another nutbar executive order, or someone else screaming about what the Orange Man did.

    I find it relatively easy to escape all of that. Unless I read the comments here where it is an obsession.

    Plant a garden. Relax.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  267. @269, it’s true. The GOP should have a lot to talk about in terms of inflation, immigration, crime, Afghanistan, and spending (I know, ha ha ha). And yet, the GOP is held hostage to talk about stolen elections and questionably-tedious rationalizations about prosecutorial overreach. And it won’t stop…Georgia, J6 will consume more of our national dialogue and make us smaller and smaller. Putin continues to win the longer game. This is why we can’t elect people for highest office with serious character defects. The solution SHOULD have been impeachment. Now we are stuck with this spectacle because Lindsey Graham et al wouldn’t do their constitutional duty….twice. Shame on them.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  268. RIP, Silvio Berlusconi, 86.

    More like this, God.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  269. For Christie fans, he’s doing a CNN Townhall tonight at 8ET.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  270. So when do we bring Fauci, Daszak and otyers up on charges for lying under oath and buoweapons research with a foreign power? When do we hold China accountable for their unsafe bioweapons research that killed millions?

    NJRob (5a0774)

  271. When do we hold China accountable for their unsafe bioweapons research that killed millions?

    We do now, if you count “we” as meaning individual purchasing decisions and not government mandates.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  272. It’s THIS. The constant and overwhelming presence he carves out of our lives through his need for all the oxygen in the country. Every day we will be listening to some Tweetstorm, or dealing with yet another nutbar executive order, or someone else screaming about what the Orange Man did.

    Eventually, we will have no choice but to elect enough Democrat Senators to convict him in one of his several impeachments. Not that it would be without consequence.

    Pray for the Secret Service, whose job it is to stand between Trump and bullets.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:13 am

    You realize how this makes you sound, right?

    NJRob (5a0774)

  273. Apparently fire CAN melt steel.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  274. You realize how this makes you sound, right?

    Sane?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  275. We do now, if you count “we” as meaning individual purchasing decisions and not government mandates.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:36 am

    So not an act of war?

    How about Fauci, Daszak and the rest? How about the media and government with their dleiberate lies and gaslighting?

    NJRob (5a0774)

  276. So not an act of war?

    Do you advocate war with China?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  277. How about Fauci, Daszak and the rest? How about the media and government with their deliberate lies and gaslighting?

    Well, Trump was president when all that happened, so let’s charge him with all that, too. Good idea!

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  278. You are wrong. He was a fraud.

    Still is.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  279. Re: #272, Kevin M.,

    Not quite R.I.H., but surprising, though to be fair, I wouldn’t mind a 90 year anniversary reprise of Anton Cermak, given similar locale to tomorrow’s doings.

    urbanleftbehind (eabb21)

  280. Any group with five votes can get him out of bed at 4AM. What a terrible wet noodle he is. If he had a pair, he would pick someone and expel them. OF course the Dems would leave him hanging. What a schmuck.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:15 pm

    Too bad it requires a 2/3 majority to expel (Article 1, Section 5, Clause 2). Interesting factoid, all five of the House members that have been expelled have been Democrats; three for supporting the Confederacy and two (Michael Myers and James Traficant) after criminal convictions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  281. Kevin,

    Is there any way to discuss something without you bringing Trump into the equation?

    An act of war by China that killed millions and devastated the world’s economy deserves a response. The coverup and deliberate lies by those who were covering for their criminal acts deserves a response.

    The coverup is wworse than the crime.

    NJRob (5a0774)

  282. Aileen Cannon’s Previous Rulings About Trump Demand Her Recusal
    ………..
    Recusal is necessary here to avoid serious concerns about Judge Cannon’s impartiality in the public eye. The judicial recusal rule is about preserving the public’s confidence in the judicial system; it does not require a showing of actual bias. Rather, as the Supreme Court has explained, it simply asks whether “an objective observer” in the public “would have questioned [the judge’s] impartiality.” That is clearly the case with Judge Cannon. It is irrelevant whether a judge subjectively believes herself to be impartial. Because the statute aims at ensuring both justice and “the appearance of justice,” a federal judge must recuse if facts connected to the judge’s actions in the case would cause an objective observer to doubt the fairness of the proceedings.
    ………
    First, it is common knowledge that Judge Cannon already took the deeply erroneous step of ordering federal prosecutors to refrain from using the materials seized from Mar-a-Lago in their investigation when she appointed a special master to review whether these materials were subject to executive or attorney-client privilege. The charges here are the direct result of the investigation her order temporarily halted.

    Second, Judge Cannon’s other statements and actions in the prior proceedings made clear her view that Trump is entitled to differential treatment than any other criminal defendant. She wrote that “as a function of Plaintiff’s former position as President of the United States, the stigma associated with the subject seizure is in a league of its own.” ……..As the ultraconservative panel of the 11th Circuit forcefully explained when finally dismissing Trump’s civil action in its entirety, it was Judge Cannon’s attempt to “carve out an unprecedented exception in our law for former presidents” that was in a league of its own.

    Third, federal courts have explained in related contexts that prior reversals of a judge’s decisions in a case can support the conclusions that the judge “would have difficulty putting [her] previous views and findings aside,” and that another judge taking the case would be “appropriate to preserve the appearance of justice.”………
    ………..
    But what if Judge Cannon does not recuse herself? One possibility that should be explored is for the chief judge of the district court, Chief Judge Cecilia Altonaga, to reassign the case pursuant to the court’s power under federal law to “assign … cases so far as [local] rules and orders do not otherwise prescribe.” Nothing in the Southern District of Florida’s local rules or internal operating procedures is to the contrary. Those local procedures provide for Judge Cannon and her colleagues to agree to transfer the case to another judge. The chief judge should have a vigorous discussion with her under that provision. If Judge Cannon demurs, though, the rules are silent about what happens next and so the federal statute comes into play for the chief judge to reassign the case. She too can point to logistical concerns, including the security ones, in reassigning it to a judge in Miami— saving face for Judge Cannon.

    ……..The more likely possibility here if the Southern District of Florida chooses not to deal with this issue is that the 11th Circuit should be called upon to reassign the case to a different judge at the earliest opportunity. ……..

    Under binding 11th Circuit precedents a case should be reassigned to a different judge if, among other reasons, the original judge would have “difficulty” setting aside her previous views and findings and reassignment would not result in a waste of judicial resources. Those factors clearly weigh in favor of reassignment here, due to the difficulties that Judge Cannon will likely face in diverging from her previous unorthodox and wrongful rulings benefiting Trump.
    ……..
    ……..(T)he (Justice Department) may, as they often do, take the more conservative approach to recusal. If so, they may instead wait for the judge to overstep once more and at that point ask her, and if she refuses, ask the 11th Circuit to act. ………

    …….. (I)f the special master case is any indication, we should not have a long wait for an erroneous decision by Judge Cannon …….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  283. The Trump Indictment’s Silver Lining:

    Donald Trump was charged under the Espionage Act. Donald Trump was not charged with espionage.
    ……….
    While in some cases acknowledging that perhaps Trump did something wrong, (Trump’s defenders) have argued that at least there’s no evidence he gave these documents to America’s enemies. They’ve also effectively suggested that, absent such a breach, it’s time to move on since the documents have been recovered.

    The former is a remarkable feat of goalpost-setting and spin. The latter is a dicey assumption, given all that we’ve learned.
    ……….
    “However cavalier he was with classified files, Mr. Trump did not accept a bribe or betray secrets to Russia,” (The Wall Street Journal’s Editorial Board) wrote Friday night. “The FBI recovered the missing documents when it raided Mar-a-Lago, so presumably there are no more secret attack plans for Mr. Trump to show off.”
    ………
    Fox News host Mark Levin was also quick to this line of argument: “There’s not one syllable of evidence in here, that any information under the Espionage Act was passed to any spies, to any enemies, to any foreign countries — not one.”

    Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) picked up the argument Sunday. “Espionage charges are absolutely ridiculous. Whether you like Trump or not, he did not commit espionage,” Graham said on ABC’s “This Week.” “He did not disseminate, leak or provide information to a foreign power or to a news organization to damage this country. He is not a spy. He’s overcharged.”

    But as Graham — a former Judge Advocate General’s Corps (JAG) lawyer — very likely knows, being charged under the Espionage Act does not mean you are accused of spying or even aiding spies. ……..
    ………
    In response to Graham promoting this portion of his ABC News interview Sunday, legal expert Stephen Vladeck noted his own testimony from 2010 about the Espionage Act. In it, Vladeck noted that “the plain text of the Act fails to require a specific intent either to harm the national security of the United States or to benefit a foreign power.”
    ………
    Beyond that, there is the related argument: that whatever non-espionage conduct Trump engaged in by holding onto these documents after the government demanded them has effectively been extinguished. ……

    This is quite the presumption.

    The indictment makes no mention of the idea that there are still classified documents out there. But the document Trump described in one instance of his allegedly showing them off — the one for which he’s on tape, involving a potential attack on Iran — reportedly hasn’t turned up.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  284. Anton Cermak

    I doubt that Trump will ride in an open limo. Pretty sure the Secret Service would be against it.

    BTW, in Phil Dick’s “The Man in the High Castle” it’s FDR, not Cermak, who dies.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  285. Is there any way to discuss something without you bringing Trump into the equation?

    Says the king of whaddabouts, trying not to discuss the guy he’s whaddabouting to defend.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  286. ……..(T)he (Justice Department) may, as they often do, take the more conservative approach to recusal. If so, they may instead wait for the judge to overstep once more and at that point ask her, and if she refuses, ask the 11th Circuit to act. ………

    This has to be looked at in how it serves DoJ’s goal of a speedy trial, preferably this year. They could hold this in abeyance and see how it goes. If the judge is giving Trump his desired delays, or allowing Trump to delay with specious motions, or throwing out evidence, then they bite the bullet and try to force recusal.

    If, otoh, the judge plays it straight and gives them a trial date in, say, October 2023 and doesn’t allow Trump’s lawyers to be vexatious with motions, then it’s all good.

    After all, any prison term is the same as any other prison term for Trump. So sentencing is not a worry; even at the low end of the range, it’s enough.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  287. The coverup is wworse than the crime.

    Is it confirmed that the virus was created in the Wuhan lab?
    Is it confirmed that the virus was purposely released?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  288. This has to be looked at in how it serves DoJ’s goal of a speedy trial, preferably this year.

    Highly unlikely.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  289. TrumpWorld Keeping It Classy II:

    ………..
    A user named “Belac186” (on the forum The Donald) offered a far deadlier fix: “The only way this country ever becomes anything like the Constitution says this country should be is if thousands of traitorous rats are publicly executed.” Commenter “DogFaceKilla” quickly chimed in to offer supplies: “I got some rope somewhere in the garage…” And “Heavy_Metal_Patriot” added: “Hans says we can borrow the flammenwerfer” — a reference to a battlefield flame thrower used to by German soldiers in World War II.

    The proposal for mass killing struck user “BlackPilledMAGA” as going too far: “Doesn’t have to be thousands, just a few dozen would do. Shit would STOP immediately.” But user “Nerdrem1” insisted taking out a few elites wouldn’t make the difference, suggesting the number of dead required was on a genocidal scale: “Millions. The real problem is the people that vote for them, as long as they exist the problem can’t be solved.” A user named “Heavy_Metal_Patriot” concurred: “Correct.”

    ……..The Donald was used to help plot and promote the violence at the Capitol in 2021, as detailed in the final report of the House Jan. 6 Committee, including by users who “openly discussed surrounding and occupying the U.S. Capitol.”
    ………
    ……..Under a meme post showing Donald Trump with laser eyes and the text “YUGE MISTAKE,” forum posters wrote of preparing for violence.

    User “horsepaste420” wrote: “I just feel like we’re going through the motions until all hell breaks loose.” A commenter named “Blackrider” concurred: “Same here dude. Stacking bags and loading mags. Just waiting for the calm to end, and the chaos to begin.” A responding to another user’s prediction of “civil war,” a commenter named ”pushbackv2” called such a conflict “inevitable” and predicted “it’s right around the corner.”
    ……….
    A user whose handle is “-jjjjjjjjjj-” then appeared to reference a famous revolutionary quote from Thomas Jefferson about the “the tree of liberty” needing to be “refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants,” suggesting that Trump could jumpstart hostilities with a single phrase:

    “The only thing that’s going to change the course of this country from its present heading of a Marxist dictatorship,” the commenter wrote, “is if Trump stands up in Court and says ‘to all of my supporters, the tree needs watering and now is the time.’”
    ###########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  290. First the trial, then the appeals. Trump may want multiple bites at every apple, but his real goal is delay since they have him nailed to the wall.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  291. TrumpWorld Keeping It Classy II:

    ………..
    A user named “Belac186” (on the forum The Donald) offered a far deadlier fix: “The only way this country ever becomes anything like the Constitution says this country should be is if thousands of traitorous rats are publicly executed.” Commenter “DogFaceKilla” quickly chimed in to offer supplies: “I got some rope somewhere in the garage…” And “Heavy_Metal_Patriot” added: “Hans says we can borrow the flammenwerfer” — a reference to a battlefield flame thrower used to by German soldiers in World War II.

    The proposal for mass killing struck user “BlackPilledMAGA” as going too far: “Doesn’t have to be thousands, just a few dozen would do. Sh*t would STOP immediately.” But user “Nerdrem1” insisted taking out a few elites wouldn’t make the difference, suggesting the number of dead required was on a genocidal scale: “Millions. The real problem is the people that vote for them, as long as they exist the problem can’t be solved.” A user named “Heavy_Metal_Patriot” concurred: “Correct.”

    ……..The Donald was used to help plot and promote the violence at the Capitol in 2021, as detailed in the final report of the House Jan. 6 Committee, including by users who “openly discussed surrounding and occupying the U.S. Capitol.”
    ………
    User “horsepaste420” wrote: “I just feel like we’re going through the motions until all h*ll breaks loose.” A commenter named “Blackrider” concurred: “Same here dude. Stacking bags and loading mags. Just waiting for the calm to end, and the chaos to begin.” A responding to another user’s prediction of “civil war,” a commenter named ”pushbackv2” called such a conflict “inevitable” and predicted “it’s right around the corner.”
    ……….
    A user whose handle is “-jjjjjjjjjj-” then appeared to reference a famous revolutionary quote from Thomas Jefferson about the “the tree of liberty” needing to be “refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants,” suggesting that Trump could jumpstart hostilities with a single phrase:

    “The only thing that’s going to change the course of this country from its present heading of a Marxist dictatorship,” the commenter wrote, “is if Trump stands up in Court and says ‘to all of my supporters, the tree needs watering and now is the time.’”
    ###########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  292. First the trial, then the appeals. Trump may want multiple bites at every apple, but his real goal is delay since they have him nailed to the wall.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:23 am

    As the article outlined, there is no way a trial will start this year. The first step is that Trump’s lawyers need to get security clearances. Can they?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  293. TrumpWorld Keeping It Classy III:

    ……….
    “MAGA will make Waco look like a tea party,” a user with the screen name 1776take2 wrote about the planned protest on the pro-Trump messaging board known as The Donald, which was instrumental to the planning of the Capitol riot. “I used to laugh when my mom said that she was afraid if she registered Republican she may be arrested one day. I’m not laughing any more. Just buying more ammo.”
    ……..
    ……..(O)ne user posted a picture of Garland and writing, “America cannot allow this cowardly thug to destroy our democracy. This is what the Second Amendment was made for. Buy a gun or help organize your local militia today.”
    ………
    “Who’s coming with me on Tuesday? I will be the one in the [f*ck around and find out] armor, easy to find, KEK on the back collar,” one member of The Donald wrote on Friday. “I will be there peacefully to speak up about this misjustice, legally I will also be armed, well armed.”

    ……..Under one screenshot of a Trump post about his aide Walt Nauta also being indicted, one user wrote: “Revolution Now.” Another added: “I want blood. I want f*cking blood.”
    ………
    Over the weekend, Trump raged on Truth Social, and called Bill Barr a “gutless pig” after the former attorney general called the indictment “seriously damning.” Trump also shared a meme about his indictment with a caption declaring, “THIS IS NOT A GAME, THIS IS WAR.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  294. Judge Cannon may have just made a bad ruling on the special master. Meaning, she might be a poor judge, not a corrupt one. This is the case of her life. All eyes will be on her and her rulings. I doubt that she will try to curry favor with Trump. She may even bend a bit in the other direction. If her rulings are appallingly bad, Smith can appeal to the 11th to remove her. The problem is whether running this drama out would give Trump the delay he needs. Still, I doubt Trump wins in November if against all odds he remains the GOP frontrunner. I have faith in enough Americans doing the right thing.

    As to Rob, the Chinese, and the pandemic, the problem with authoritarian closed societies is that it’s near impossible to pull the truth out of them. As Paul notes, there’s just not enough persuasive evidence to know the truth on the origin of the virus. And, the Chinese will never cop to a purposeful release as the consequences would be stark. Fauci was guilty of not hiring a good PR firm and having a press secretary. Trump could have demoted him or appointed a different spokesman for the pandemic response. He didn’t, likely because he knew he could use Fauci as his all-purpose fall guy. I’m not sure why one would trust Trump over Fauci with respect to pandemic analysis or response. Now if it was a pandemic game show, go with Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  295. Note:

    Wishng for a prompt end to Trump is tempting karma. It’s best we don’t. Plus, if the American people are not better than pushing ths guy into the Presidency, we may deserve what we get. The main problem with Trump the candidate is that the whole right side of spectrum ends up wedded to his drama and grievances rather than, you know, the issues (like immigration, for example)

    Appalled (03f53c)

  296. The first step is that Trump’s lawyers need to get security clearances. Can they?

    Not the court’s problem. Trump can hire someone who has a clearance. He can’t say “Oh, I cannot defend myself because they won’t give my lawyers clearances.” IF he could, then there would be no trial possible, or the prosecution would have to drop some of the charges. Which cannot be the rule.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  297. Does the judge have a clearance? Does an alternative judge have a clearance?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  298. Wishng for a prompt end to Trump is tempting karma.

    What goes around doesn’t come around to those not doing the same things.

    We may deserve what we get

    A second Trump term would be a singularity, but not the Singularity we were expecting.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  299. @286

    Aileen Cannon’s Previous Rulings About Trump Demand Her Recusal

    ………..
    Recusal is necessary here to avoid serious concerns about Judge Cannon’s impartiality in the public eye. The judicial recusal rule is about preserving the public’s confidence in the judicial system; it does not require a showing of actual bias. Rather, as the Supreme Court has explained, it simply asks whether “an objective observer” in the public “would have questioned [the judge’s] impartiality.” That is clearly the case with Judge Cannon. It is irrelevant whether a judge subjectively believes herself to be impartial. Because the statute aims at ensuring both justice and “the appearance of justice,” a federal judge must recuse if facts connected to the judge’s actions in the case would cause an objective observer to doubt the fairness of the proceedings.
    ………
    First, it is common knowledge that Judge Cannon already took the deeply erroneous step of ordering federal prosecutors to refrain from using the materials seized from Mar-a-Lago in their investigation when she appointed a special master to review whether these materials were subject to executive or attorney-client privilege. The charges here are the direct result of the investigation her order temporarily halted.

    Second, Judge Cannon’s other statements and actions in the prior proceedings made clear her view that Trump is entitled to differential treatment than any other criminal defendant. She wrote that “as a function of Plaintiff’s former position as President of the United States, the stigma associated with the subject seizure is in a league of its own.” ……..As the ultraconservative panel of the 11th Circuit forcefully explained when finally dismissing Trump’s civil action in its entirety, it was Judge Cannon’s attempt to “carve out an unprecedented exception in our law for former presidents” that was in a league of its own.

    Third, federal courts have explained in related contexts that prior reversals of a judge’s decisions in a case can support the conclusions that the judge “would have difficulty putting [her] previous views and findings aside,” and that another judge taking the case would be “appropriate to preserve the appearance of justice.”………
    ………..
    But what if Judge Cannon does not recuse herself? One possibility that should be explored is for the chief judge of the district court, Chief Judge Cecilia Altonaga, to reassign the case pursuant to the court’s power under federal law to “assign … cases so far as [local] rules and orders do not otherwise prescribe.” Nothing in the Southern District of Florida’s local rules or internal operating procedures is to the contrary. Those local procedures provide for Judge Cannon and her colleagues to agree to transfer the case to another judge. The chief judge should have a vigorous discussion with her under that provision. If Judge Cannon demurs, though, the rules are silent about what happens next and so the federal statute comes into play for the chief judge to reassign the case. She too can point to logistical concerns, including the security ones, in reassigning it to a judge in Miami— saving face for Judge Cannon.

    ……..The more likely possibility here if the Southern District of Florida chooses not to deal with this issue is that the 11th Circuit should be called upon to reassign the case to a different judge at the earliest opportunity. ……..

    Under binding 11th Circuit precedents a case should be reassigned to a different judge if, among other reasons, the original judge would have “difficulty” setting aside her previous views and findings and reassignment would not result in a waste of judicial resources. Those factors clearly weigh in favor of reassignment here, due to the difficulties that Judge Cannon will likely face in diverging from her previous unorthodox and wrongful rulings benefiting Trump.
    ……..
    ……..(T)he (Justice Department) may, as they often do, take the more conservative approach to recusal. If so, they may instead wait for the judge to overstep once more and at that point ask her, and if she refuses, ask the 11th Circuit to act. ………

    …….. (I)f the special master case is any indication, we should not have a long wait for an erroneous decision by Judge Cannon …….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:25 am

    As much as I would rather a different judge here, as I want him so damaged that he drops out…

    “She ruled for this party in the past and was overturned” is simply not a basis for recusal. That happens all the time.

    whembly (d116f3)

  300. @300

    Does the judge have a clearance? Does an alternative judge have a clearance?

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:51 am

    Yes, they can be “read in” when it pertains to the case.

    whembly (d116f3)

  301. AJ, I’d say Judge Cannon’s decision was worse than a “bad ruling”, because she crossed into unethical territory when the 11th Circuit stated that “the district court abused its discretion”.

    Also, per Rip’s link, 28 USC § 455(a) states that a judge “shall disqualify himself [or herself] in any proceeding in which his [or her] impartiality might reasonably be questioned”. Her decision was so off-the-charts off-base in favor of Trump that, IMO, any reasonable person would reasonably question her impartiality.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  302. I remember when we started a war even though our intelligence community didn’t confirm or establish that a dictator actually had WMDs, and it was one of our worst foreign policy decisions in the last century.

    Please tell me that the Lessons of Iraq have been learned.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  303. @304, I’m pretty sure that’s it’s on Cannon to recuse. I’m uncomfortable saying that one bad ruling…albeit with the very conservative 11th circuit swatting it down with authority….is sufficient to pre-emptively remove Cannon. She created an exception in the law; she shouldn’t have. Does that show error or does that show bias? If she has a conspicuous trail of error after error, then she should probably be impeached for incompetence. I’m not sure that is the case here. I’m also unsure that one reversal, however high profile, shows that she is incompetent. Is there evidence that she is biased in favor of Trump? Simply getting nominated by Trump is not sufficient evidence of bias because there’s only a couple people who could have appointed her. If it had been an Obama-appointed judge selected for the case, then the Trump team could claim bias. The Congress voted her through with 12 votes (I believe) from the Democrat side. She doesn’t sound controversial. Personally, I would want her to recuse to take any appearance of bias out of play. Knowing human nature and this being the trial of the century, I don’t see it happening….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  304. AJ,

    Did you read the London Times article? They wrapped it in a bow and gave conclusive circumstantal evidence beyond a rrasonable doubt as to the virus’s development and release from a Chinese lab.

    The coverup continues.

    NJRob (a67772)

  305. It’s not fear of revolution that should keep people away from the pro-Trump protesters at the Miami federal courthouse tomorrow. It’s the smell.

    nk (a74041)

  306. @307

    @304, I’m pretty sure that’s it’s on Cannon to recuse. I’m uncomfortable saying that one bad ruling…albeit with the very conservative 11th circuit swatting it down with authority….is sufficient to pre-emptively remove Cannon. She created an exception in the law; she shouldn’t have. Does that show error or does that show bias? If she has a conspicuous trail of error after error, then she should probably be impeached for incompetence. I’m not sure that is the case here. I’m also unsure that one reversal, however high profile, shows that she is incompetent. Is there evidence that she is biased in favor of Trump? Simply getting nominated by Trump is not sufficient evidence of bias because there’s only a couple people who could have appointed her. If it had been an Obama-appointed judge selected for the case, then the Trump team could claim bias. The Congress voted her through with 12 votes (I believe) from the Democrat side. She doesn’t sound controversial. Personally, I would want her to recuse to take any appearance of bias out of play. Knowing human nature and this being the trial of the century, I don’t see it happening….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:45 am

    The silver-lining of having a Trump appointed Judge oversee this case, is that if it goes against him, he can’t argue that it was rigged.

    whembly (d116f3)

  307. What might happen with Cannon is that Trump’s lawyers, in their Trump-like way, might try to suppress the same documents that were the subject of the prior case in a new motion, and that Cannon might rule in their favor again.

    In which case, the Eleventh Circuit, after reversing her again, might say if not in so many words, “dis bish don learn” and remand the case to a new judge on its own motion.

    nk (89fd00)

  308. The silver-lining of having a Trump appointed Judge oversee this case, is that if it goes against him, he can’t argue that it was rigged.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:09 pm

    As is having an 11th Circuit panel of Trump or other Republican-appointed judges deny his appeals, such as when Judge Cannon’s special master ruling was overturned.

    The ruling was issued by 11th Circuit Chief Judge William Pryor, a George W. Bush appointee, and two of Trump’s own appeals court picks, Andrew Brasher and Britt Grant.

    In fact, of the 12 active judges on the 11th Circuit, 5 were appointed by Democratic Presidents, 7 by Republicans, of which 6 were appointed by Donald Trump. The odds seem pretty good that any appeals panel will have a majority of Trump appointees.

    Of the 9 Senior Circuit Judges, 5 were appointed by Republicans.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  309. Any group with five votes can get him out of bed at 4AM. What a terrible wet noodle he is. If he had a pair, he would pick someone and expel them. OF course the Dems would leave him hanging. What a schmuck.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:15 pm

    If McCarthy won’t move to expel Santos until after the Ethics Committee investigates (thwarting a Democratic resolution to expel him) and his criminal trial, then he is not going expel anyone for their extremist views, especially since it would cut into his majority. If he moved to expel Biggs, you can bet there would be a motion to vacate the chair proposed by someone the Freedom Caucus.

    With the change in House rules it only requires only one Member of the House to propose such a motion, not five.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  310. . She created an exception in the law; she shouldn’t have.

    But it was an exceptional case, both in the laws that applied and in the quantity of documents seized. The government did voluntarily return to Trump some pictures, I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  311. 232:

    Andy Biggs: “We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye.”

    He’s referring to war, metaphorically, as in the word “lawfare”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare

    An Eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and an indictment and prosecution for an indictment and and a prosecution.

    What else could it mean??

    Has any physical violence been visited upon Donald Trump?

    Of course, what Andy Biggs is calling for is basically corrupt, but that’s all it is. It’s outrageous enough, without misinterpreting it.

    Of course, unless he means Republican state prosecutors, there is no political prosecution that can be brought against Biden, but Biggs is thinking more long term — 2025 and later.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  312. I have read excerpts from the indictment, but the full text seems mostly to available in hard to use Scribd, and sometimes as a PDF, not easy to look through in later versions of Windows. (it loads it in Adobe Acrobat)

    I’d like it online.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  313. I figured out how to access the Times piece, and I’ll go back to my questions.
    Is it confirmed that the virus was created in the Wuhan lab?
    Pretty close. I’m more comfortable saying that it’s more likely than not that the virus was created in that Wuhan lab, and they used some of our technology to do it. There was a long article from 2-3 years ago (I can’t find it, but I linked to it from here) that discussed furin cleavage and how well it attached to human cells.

    Is it confirmed that the virus was purposely released?
    Not according the Times piece.

    They believe this led to the creation of the Covid-19 virus, and that it leaked into the city of Wuhan after a laboratory accident. “It has become increasingly clear that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was involved in the creation, promulgation and cover-up of the Covid-19 pandemic,” one of the investigators said.

    Also, as inhumane as the Xi regime is to its own people, it would be extraordinary for the ChiComs to infect their own people and risk indiscriminately killing off perhaps millions of fellow citizens. We still have no idea how many Chinese have been infect and died, because Xi has put a lid on that information, which tells me they’re still trying to conceal their cockup from the populace.

    Also, a nation intent on spreading a dangerous man-made virus would’ve developed a vaccine prior to its release to protect their own people. But, by most accounts, the vaccines the ChiComs have created generally suck. Just ask the Brazilians.

    Based on that, I don’t consider the Xi’s regimes actions to be an act of war on the US and the world because I don’t see evidence of a deliberate attack; however, but I do consider them hostile to American interests and our policy toward them should reflect that. It would be in our best interests to
    (1) join TPP,
    (2) push for a phased divesting from their economy,
    (3) reinforce our military alliances with Australia, Asian democracies and India,
    (4) speaking of India, how about massively expanding trade with them. They just surpassed China population-wise,
    (5) sanction and penalize Chinese companies that are cheating, pirating and dumping,
    (6) seek other avenues for rare-earth minerals,
    (7) help Ukraine reclaim all its conquered territory, because f-ck Putin and f-ck Russia,
    (8) our government should push for a strong domestically constructed 5G network (and other significant technologies) to lessen our dependency on the ChiComs,
    (9) TBD

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  314. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:46 am

    Still, I doubt Trump wins in November if against all odds he remains the GOP frontrunner.

    You could think of a scenario in which he wins in a 3-way race, but that’s unlikely.

    I’d like to see him not being one of the top 3 choices in the Electoral College, just for the humiliation. The House won’t pick him.

    Best scenario, maybe:

    Third party ticket with different candidates for president in different states, but the same one for vice president, maybe Doug Burgum, who is rich enough to mostly self finance the ticket. Presidential candidate in each state should be somebody who is polling no lower than second in that state.

    Since only 3 candidates can make it into the House that will create a real incentive to vote for a third party candidate (so that he will beat other third party candidates in the Electoral vote and get into the House.)

    This will make a complete mess of the popular vote, but the American presidential election system as it actually working now, deserves that.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  315. AJ_Liberty continued:

    And, the Chinese will never cop to a purposeful release as the consequences would be stark.

    They won’t cop to an unintentional release (because compensation might be demanded by some, if for no other reason, but they don’t need that reason)

    Especially if, as I suspect, there were two leaks of somewhat different versions of the virus.

    The first one in the month before September 12, 2019, (when the Wuhan Institute of Virology database of bat viruses was taken offline) of a mostly containable version; and the second on December 2, 2019 when the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention was moved to a new location about 300 yards from the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale
    Market.

    The biggest or most critical lie of China about the virus is which of the two initial strains of the virus – the “L” strain or the “S” strain – came first. (One is not a direct ancestor of the other)

    That’s why they wanted to collect and destroy all early samples, and they are still hiding any early samples.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-identified-strains-covid-19/story?id=69391954

    Researchers analyzed 103 sequenced genomes using strains from China, and found that 70% of strains were one type, which they called “L.” The “L” strain was more aggressive than the remaining 30% of strains, which were dubbed “S.”

    The first strain was more common at the beginning of the outbreak, in Wuhan, China, but its frequency decreased after early January. That drop-off could be a result of the strict measures China put in place to try and stem the spread of the virus.

    The “S” strain came first. It was milder, and spread further in the beginning but died out.
    It reached the United States first It could not have spread further in China and elsewhere if it was not first. This ABC article considers the beginning of the outbreak as occurting in December. but it really started earlier.

    I think everything besides omicron has by now gone practically extinct That’s why the vaccine if half ineffective but the FDA is back to slow walking everything. And the best treatment, continually changing monoclonal antibodies – which cured Trump – seems to be no longer being used. They become ineffective because, probably for reasons of avoiding side effects, they use only one or two antibodies instead of at least four different ones (too many to mutate around).

    They’re not writing major news stories about Covid any more.

    Incidentally, one Covid story I did hear (on the radio) the other day is that the diabetic drug metformin seems to be good in preventing the chances of long Covid developing.

    That’s because it is an anti-aging pill. (which I think researchers and many doctors are too scared to say much about, but there’s plenty evidence that it is.)

    https://fortune.com/well/2023/05/04/metformin-anti-aging-longevity-risks-side-effects

    Should you take metformin for longevity?

    Metformin is not currently approved as an anti-aging treatment. While some doctors may be willing to prescribe it off-label, it’s best to speak with your health care provider about the risks versus any potential benefits.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  316. SF: Trump lately said they were declassified automatically – i.e. without him knowing it.

    51. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:51 pm

    He said that after the search warrant, Sammy. When he thought he was getting away with it, he had a different story.

    Initially, of course, he thought they were still classified.

    Then later, I think after the search warrant, he came up with the idea that he might have declassified them. Of course he could not point to any time or place. His lawyers did not raise the claim that he had declassified them in court. Then he said he could have declassified them in his mind.

    The latest was saying they were declassified automatically (presumably by sending them to Mar-a-Lago and treating them like they were declassified)

    In any case the prosecutor avoided all such arguments by not indicting him for mishandling classified information.

    He said that after the search warrant, Sammy. When he thought he was getting away with it, he had a different story.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:51 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  317. The silver-lining of having a Trump appointed Judge oversee this case, is that if it goes against him, he can’t argue that it was rigged.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:09 pm

    LOL, yes he can! Given the number of judges appointed by Trump who ruled against his “rigged” election claims, I doubt it will make a difference. The 13 federal cases saw votes by 12 Trump appointees, none of them favorable to Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  318. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:33 pm

    Even with that record, Trump is still claiming a “rigged” election-and the record is even worse when you include state courts!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  319. Oops, extra line

    287.

    But the document Trump described in one instance of his allegedly showing them off — the one for which he’s on tape, involving a potential attack on Iran — reportedly hasn’t turned up.

    If you read it closely, he didn’t actually show it to anyone so they could read it and the same thing for the map

    It could be it got returned and isn’t recognized, but it also could be that Trump was scared for it to be found in his possession and destroyed some highly sensitive documents.

    He told his lawyer that Hillary Clinton’s lawyers had deleted things and nothing happened to them so why can’t he?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12179661/Trump-PRAISED-attorney-deleted-30-000-Hillary-emails.html

    Trump PRAISED the attorney who deleted 30,000 Hillary emails so she ‘didn’t get any trouble’ because they worked around her ‘beauty appointments’

    Former President Donald Trump praised Hillary Clinton’s lawyer for deleting 30,000 of her emails in Friday’s unsealed federal indictment said

    During the 2016 presidential campaign, Trump went after Clinton for her emails scandal

    But behind closed doors, Trump thought it was ‘great’ that Clinton’s lawyer deleted the messages

    But Hillary Clinton’s lawyers were used to breaking the law.

    Williams & Connolly was the chief law firm for organized crime. (it’s not surprising that Bill and Hillary Clinton used it, because Bill Clinton came out of the political machine that was run by one of the top three Founders of organized crime in America: Owen incent (Owney the Killer) Madden political boss of Hot Springs Arkansas approximately 1935-1948 and 1951-1965. Bill Clinton’s step-uncle , Raymond Clinton, was an important member of the machine. They may also have controlled Hope, Arkansas, where many people associated with the machine self-exiled after 1948.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  320. I don’t think Trump would want to alienate the judge by accusing her of being biased..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  321. > You could think of a scenario in which he wins in a 3-way race, but that’s unlikely.

    Why do you think that’s unlikely? If nobody gets an electoral college majority, then the House decides — with each state delegation getting one vote.

    Given the cowardice of the House Republican caucus, isn’t this a lock for Trump?

    aphrael (588ff0)

  322. > Incidentally, one Covid story I did hear (on the radio) the other day is that the diabetic drug metformin seems to be good in preventing the chances of long Covid developing.

    I’m taking it as a long Covid prophylactic (i tested positive ten days ago while still suffering from acute bronchitis), and … my intestines *loathe* it

    aphrael (588ff0)

  323. The silver-lining of having a Trump appointed Judge oversee this case, is that if it goes against him, he can’t argue that it was rigged.

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:09 pm

    Lolol. Thanks. I needed that. You know who else will be amused to find out that appointment by Donald inoculates you from charges that you’re a deep state traitor who was plotting against him all along? Sessions, Barr, Bolton, Tillerson, Kelly, McMaster, Cohn, Scaramucci, Mattis, Esper, Milley, Ray, McGahn, Pence….

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  324. I don’t think Trump would want to alienate the judge by accusing her of being biased..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:44 pm

    In Cannon’s case, he doesn’t need to.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  325. Uh… huh:
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/grassley-burisma-executive-who-allegedly-paid-biden-has-audio-recordings-of-conversations-with-joe-hunter

    Sen. Chuck Grassley said Monday that the Burisma executive who allegedly paid Joe Biden and Hunter Biden kept 17 audio recordings of his conversations with them as an “insurance policy,” citing the FBI FD-1023 form that the bureau briefed congressional lawmakers on.

    whembly (d116f3)

  326. Release the tapes!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  327. Another fact-free statement from Grassley, much like Comer’s statement that the FBI is investigating Biden for bribery. FD-1023 reports are about as accurate as the VAERS database.

    Grassley and Comer need to put up or shut up by conducting hearings with public testimony.

    What are they afraid of?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  328. @330

    Release the tapes!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:24 pm

    It seems that it’s alleged that the Burisma executive has these tapes.

    Not clear if the FBI has the actual tapes.

    whembly (d116f3)

  329. Uh-huh. Or they may not exist at all.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  330. @331

    Another fact-free statement from Grassley, much like Comer’s statement that the FBI is investigating Biden for bribery. FD-1023 reports are about as accurate as the VAERS database.

    Grassley and Comer need to put up or shut up by conducting hearings with public testimony.

    What are they afraid of?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:31 pm

    There’s two issue here though…

    #1 Is the allegation itself. Is it credible? *Can* congress get these tapes?

    #2 What did the FBI actually do with this information? Was investigative resources allocated to conduct thorough investigation?

    whembly (d116f3)

  331. My question is:

    Was there ever a time before this when the Ranking Member of the Senate Budget Committee and the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee conducted themselves like the National Enquirer?

    nk (aeade6)

  332. #1 Is the allegation itself. Is it credible?

    It must be, or responsible members of Congress wouldn’t be issuing press releases about it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  333. @336 It’s oddly specific too.

    17 audio recordings.

    Does everyone who does shady crap record themselves like this?

    whembly (d116f3)

  334. Magistrate to preside over Trump’s arraignment, not controversial Judge Aileen Cannon
    ………
    Magistrate Judge Jonathan Goodman — not U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon, who was randomly assigned Trump’s case — will be handling the former president’s arraignment and bond matters.
    ………
    Goodman is a well-regarded veteran magistrate who once worked as a newspaper reporter in South Florida and later obtained his law degree and practiced civil litigation, including as a partner with the Akerman law firm in Miami.

    Goodman is known not only for his legal wisdom but also for his wry humor in the courtroom.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  335. @335

    My question is:

    Was there ever a time before this when the Ranking Member of the Senate Budget Committee and the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee conducted themselves like the National Enquirer?

    nk (aeade6) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:58 pm

    So you’re going to ignore the elephant in the room, aint ya?

    Elephant = FBI tried like the dickens to keep that FD document from Congress. If it were worthly bs, would they tried this hard to hide it?

    whembly (d116f3)

  336. Not the Strongest Argument:

    ……….
    Asked at a press gaggle whether it was “a good look” for Trump to be caught storing classified documents in the bathroom of Mar-a-Lago’s Lake Room, McCarthy responded with a question: “I don’t know — is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? A bathroom door locks.”
    ………
    When classified records were discovered in the garage in January by Biden’s lawyers, who immediately notified the Department of Justice and handed them over, the president was quick to point out that his garage, like most garages, had doors that lock.
    ………
    If true, that would place Biden’s garage in the same category as Trump’s Mar-a-Lago bathroom as a location with a lock — even if, as McCarthy claimed, Biden’s garage “opens up all the time.”

    It’s unclear how frequently the bathroom in Mar-a-Lago’s Lake Room opens up. It’s also unclear whether, like most bathrooms, it locks from the inside and remains unlocked when unoccupied.

    McCarthy’s office did not return a voicemail message seeking comment.
    ########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  337. I see the GOP elephant.

    nk (aeade6)

  338. So you’re going to ignore the elephant in the room, aint ya?

    So far the only “elephant” are unsubstantiated allegations by an anonymous informant as reported by two members of Congress that have every incentive to exaggerate (to put it mildly) claims against President Biden. If they have such evidence (such as bank statements, recordings, witness testimony, etc.) it should be released during televised Congressional hearings. So far the allegations have as much credibility as the Steele dossier.

    To quote Gertrude Stein, “There’s no there there.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  339. Why Trumo is unlikely to win a 3-way race:

    He is significantly more unpopular than Bide n nationwide, (by at 5 percentage points) so when all is said and done, is likely to win fewer electoral votes.

    If it gets into the House, with him being one of the 3 remaining, it is not likely to elect him. In practical terms you need about 57% of the members of the House.

    They vote by states, and 26 are needed and if a state is evenly divided it does not vote but 26 are still needed, and some Republicans will not vote for Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba)

  340. Yes, they would try to hide untrustworthy BS,

    Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba)

  341. We’re getting double and triple hearsay.

    Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba)

  342. GOP rep accuses DOJ of setting trap to imprison Trump supporters: ‘They want J6 again’

    ……….
    (Rep. Clay Higgins (R-La.)) cast the case as a threat to America, but urged fellow Trump supporters not to “fall for the trap,” drawing a parallel to the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol, which has seen hundreds of federal prosecutions of those involved.

    “My fellow conservatives, the DOJ/FBI doesn’t expect to imprison Trump, they expect to imprison you. They want J6 again, in Miami and in your city and in mine. They want MAGA conservatives to react to this perimeter probe and in doing so, set yourselves up for targeted persecution and further entrapment,” Higgins said in a Sunday release from his office.

    “They want to intercept a busload of conservatives en route to protest and create conflicts during the stop. They are hoping to provoke conservative Americans. Don’t fall for the trap,” the Louisiana lawmaker said, adding “don’t become an incarcerated pawn in the agenda driven DOJ/FBI strategy to oppress conservatives across America.”
    ……..
    Higgins’ warning, which ends by saying “We the People must fight against oppression legally, peacefully, and within the parameters of our Constitution,” comes after one of his tweets last week drew some scrutiny and added to concerns about a violent response to the indictment.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  343. This Is Why Trump Doesn’t Like Note-Takers:

    ……….
    In the 49-page federal indictment accusing him of retaining classified documents after leaving the White House and scheming to block government efforts to retrieve them, some of the most potentially damning evidence came from notes made by one of those lawyers, M. Evan Corcoran.

    Mr. Corcoran’s notes, first recorded into an iPhone and then transcribed on paper, essentially gave prosecutors a road map to building their case. Mr. Trump, according to the indictment, pressured Mr. Corcoran to thwart investigators from reclaiming reams of classified material and even suggested to him that it might be better to lie to investigators and withhold the documents altogether.
    ……….
    When the indictment of Mr. Trump was unsealed on Friday, it became abruptly clear that the notes by Mr. Corcoran — identified as “Trump Attorney 1” — were far more extensive, and far more damaging, than previously known.

    “What happens if we just don’t respond at all or don’t play ball with them?” Mr. Corcoran quotes Mr. Trump as saying at one point, referring to government officials seeking to enforce a subpoena demanding the return of the documents.
    ……….
    “I always used to think that attorneys really had a very high status in life, that when you had an attorney, that attorneys can’t be subpoenaed, they can’t be summoned to talk,” Mr. Trump told Newsmax in March after Judge Howell’s ruling. Complaining about how Mr. Corcoran had been compelled to testify in the documents investigation, he said: “They bring attorneys in as though they’re, you know, witnesses to a case. It wasn’t supposed to be that way.”
    ………
    Mr. Trump has long complained about lawyers or other advisers taking notes in front of him. But The New York Times had reported that Mr. Corcoran’s notes were copious, dictated into the Voice Memos app on his iPhone after a meeting with Mr. Trump about the subpoena issued in May 2022 demanding the return of any classified documents he still had at Mar-a-Lago.
    ………
    “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don’t,” the notes quote Mr. Trump as saying. “I don’t want you looking through my boxes.”
    ………
    Beyond serving as potential evidence for a jury, Mr. Corcoran’s notes could prove useful to prosecutors in what is sure to be a contentious pretrial period marked by motions from Mr. Trump’s lawyers to dismiss the case for various reasons.
    ………
    Mr. Corcoran’s detailed accounts of how Mr. Trump sought to avoid handing back any classified material could be powerful evidence of his obstruction of the government’s investigation and, for that reason, serve to distinguish his case from (Hillary) Clinton’s.
    ###########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  344. One Way of Stopping Trump’s Prosecution:

    ………
    “This morning, I’m writing an appropriations rider to DEFUND Special Counsel Jack Smith’s office and entire investigation,” Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene tweeted on Monday, days after joining Trump on the campaign trail. “I will not vote for ANY appropriations bill to fund the weaponization of government. I hope every one of my Republican colleagues will join me.”

    Florida Representative Matt Gaetz co-signed Greene’s call, tweeting, “This must happen.”

    “For the Department of Justice to use this kind of tactic—we’ve seen it time and time again and I think it will continue until we get their attention,” Tennessee Representative Tim Burchett said Monday on Newsmax. “We need to bring them down before the committee, and if not we need to at some point talk about cutting their funding. I’m beating a dead horse but that’s really what needs to happen because this group is out of control, they’re rogue.”

    “We ought to defund and dismantle the DOJ,” Arizona Representative Andy Biggs tweeted Friday, calling for the execution of the Holman Rule. Originally introduced in 1876, the rule allows congressional members to propose amendments to appropriations bills that target specific programs or individuals, potentially leading to reduced pay or terminations and changes to a specific agency, office or program.
    ………

    Related:

    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) told Breitbart News she is “dumbfounded” by the refusal of her Republican House colleagues to call for the impeachment of President Joe Biden.

    Following the pay-to-play allegation against Joe Biden for accepting $5 million after threatening to withhold aid to Ukraine until a prosecutor probing the Ukrainian energy company Burisma Holdings was fired, Greene expressed bewilderment about the lack of interest in impeachment proceedings.

    “To be honest with you? I don’t know,” Greene said when asked what it would take for House Republicans to call for Joe Biden’s impeachment.

    “I’ve already been texting a ton of my colleagues, ‘We have to impeach Biden, we have to impeach Biden,’” she said. “I literally introduced articles of impeachment on this very issue on January 20, 2021.”

    Greene said Republicans must simply have the courage to impeach Joe Biden. “We have to impeach him in the House to show and prove to our voters that we’re willing to do these things, are willing to bring accountability. If we don’t do it, then why do they want to vote for us?”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  345. Yes, they would try to hide untrustworthy BS,

    Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:32 pm

    We’re getting double and triple hearsay.

    Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:34 pm

    Exactly. Thank you, Sammy.

    What McCombover & Grabass, a fully-owned subsidiary of Orange, Inc., want is to be able to waive it about and yell, “We got this from the FBI! That proves it’s authentic!”

    nk (27c28b)

  346. Florida Representative Matt Gaetz co-signed Greene’s call, tweeting, “This must happen.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:23 pm

    Matt and Marge should get a room together. If you take out the “Taylor”, they even have the same initials.

    norcal (8b5267)

  347. Darling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):

    ……….
    Haley initially reacted to Trump’s indictment over allegedly mishandling classified documents last week, calling the charges “prosecutorial overreach.” However, the former South Carolina governor went after her former boss Monday on Fox News, and said the contents of the indictment suggest he was “incredibly reckless with our national security.”

    ……(I)f this indictment is true, if what it says is actually the case, President Trump was incredibly reckless with our national security,” Haley told Fox News’ Martha MacCallum.

    “I’m a military spouse, my husband’s about to deploy this weekend,” said Haley. “This puts all of our military men and women in danger if you are going to talk about what our military is capable of or how we would go about invading or doing something with one of our enemies.”

    “We’ve got to have someone that can win a general election, we’ve got to have someone that can right the ship on this country, and get us back in shape,” said Haley.

    Haley joined several of her 2024 GOP rivals in coming to the former president’s defense following Trump’s announcement on Truth Social that he’d been indicted in the documents probe……..

    “This is not how justice should be pursued in our country,” Haley said in a statement Friday. “The American people are exhausted by the prosecutorial overreach, double standards, and vendetta politics. It’s time to move beyond the endless drama and distractions.”
    ……….

    Apparently she’s chasing the Christie/Hutchinson voting bloc, all three percent of it. And she is still unwilling to call for Trump to pull out of the race. Sad!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  348. > If it gets into the House, with him being one of the 3 remaining, it is not likely to elect him. In practical terms you need about 57% of the members of the House.

    This is the claim I don’t understand.

    Each state’s delegation gets one vote. You need 26 states.

    As I read https://projects.propublica.org/represent/states the Dems control 23 and 1 is tied, so there are 26 states whose delegations are controlled by Republicans.

    Which Republican state delegations don’t vote for Trump in the three-way-split scenario?

    The Republicans in Congress are cowards who are lined up behind Trump because they are afraid to oppose his fanbois. What changes between now and Jan 4, 2025 to make that no longer true?

    aphrael (588ff0)

  349. Darling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:50 pm

    Well, her parents did come from the land of the Kamasutra. 😛

    norcal (8b5267)

  350. I’m watching Christie on the CNN Townhall, and so far he’s impressive: Smart, eloquent, compassionate, commonsensical, good conservative approach on policy.
    He could talk circles around Biden (and most other Republicans) in a debate.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  351. If only everyone dismissed Adam Schiff as much as they try and dismiss Biden’s credible guilt.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  352. Embrace the freedom of dismissing both sides, Rob. You’ll be much happier.

    norcal (8b5267)

  353. I’m pretty sure that’s it’s on Cannon to recuse.

    She’s supposed to recuse if the are reasonable concerns, and the concerns have been expressed since the minute the assignment was made and some of those were from reasonable people.

    I’m not sure what is best for her career, but it would seem that being rid of the tar baby would be a good idea.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  354. @300

    Does the judge have a clearance? Does an alternative judge have a clearance?

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:51 am

    Yes, they can be “read in” when it pertains to the case.
    whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:59 am

    You can read someone in if and only if they have the required clearance AND have the need to know (which clearly the judge has). Someone could grant them the clearance, but (despite what some have been doing) TS clearance is not a party favor.

    I would like to believe that all federal judges are qualified for TS clearance automatically but I would also like to believe that Congressmen never lie.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  355. Darling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):

    Rip complains they don’t attack Trump and then complains when they do. It’s almost as if other factors are involved.

    Nikki went after Trump on Jan 7th, then her backers started calling her with bad news. That was a pity, but understandable — no bucks, no future.

    Now, she says Eff it! and throws down once again after (she will say) reading the entire indictment. I hope and pray that this becomes a stampede and Trump becomes PNG in the Republican party.

    As I’ve said, if he cannot get the nomination himself he no longer has Sampson-in-the-temple as an option, because he needs that pardon.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  356. Please tell me that the Lessons of Iraq have been learned.

    “Don’t trust Turkey”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  357. not easy to look through in later versions of Windows. (it loads it in Adobe Acrobat)

    Sammy, you are going to have to learn to use Acrobat. It’s not rocket science.

    Indictment as a PDF
    . The reader download is FREE (altoughh you may want to keep an eye out for crapware).

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  358. If only everyone dismissed Adam Schiff as much as they try and dismiss Biden’s credible guilt.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:08 pm

    What’s credible about it? The Committee hasn’t released the FBI’s informant report or recordings. Way aren’t the Republicans holding hearings? What are they hiding?

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  359. Which Republican state delegations don’t vote for Trump in the three-way-split scenario?

    Who is the third-party candidate and who came in last? The Senate only gets to pick from the top two VP finishers.

    If the third party candidate is merely center-right they may get some Democrat votes to avoid electing Trump. Also some Republicans. In deciding each state’s votes, I think only a plurality is required so the Republicans really need to make up their minds. But since the election is over dumping Trump might seem a godsend.

    BTW, does DC get a say?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  360. Yeah Christie did a great job. He’s laid out clearly why he’s running and why Trump shouldn’t get the nomination. FINALLY, we saw the case against Donald Trump prosecuted. Now it’s fair to wonder how it will go over with the 70% that are persuadable. Let’s just say it’s the beginning of the beginning. Trump will not sink overnight, but he will eventally fall below 50%…with hopefully a resting point around 30%.

    Christie was masterful with his answers. He was comfortable in his skin even when he knew the hard core base would have wanted red meat. He went big and avoided small ball that just divides us. He emphasized accomplishments as prosecutor and governor. He connected with people and talked about drug addiction and his frustration with gun violence. I never thought I would appreciate him after hugging Obama, but tonight I want to vote for him. He’s the one candidate with some courage that isn’t leading with his finger on the polls. Let’s get him to the debates….

    AJ_Liberty (4706a8)

  361. @265 Rosa parks was called a communist agitator by conservatives. On non violence as a tactic Dr. king told the white power structure you deal with me or you deal with Malcolm X and the black panthers. Do you oppose the violence committed at concord bridge? Or the slave holders at harpers ferry?

    asset (68e5c8)

  362. 2024 GOPers start hitting Trump (gently) on classified documents

    On Monday afternoon, both Sen. Tim Scott (R-S.C.) and former U.N. ambassador Nikki Haley went further than they had before in suggesting that maybe Trump actually did something wrong. Scott called it a “serious case with serious allegations,” while Haley later said on Fox News, “If this indictment is true, if what it says is actually the case, President Trump was incredibly reckless with our national security.”

    Both layered their commentary with allusions to the idea that the process was unfair. Scott cited the idea that the justice system was “targeting and hunting Republicans.” Haley also took care to argue that, “The DOJ and FBI have lost all credibility with the American people.”

    “Two things can be true at the same time,” Haley prefaced her comments by saying.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  363. Dr. king told the white power structure you deal with me or you deal with Malcolm X and the black panthers.

    And we celebrate Dr King and not Malcolm. Why? Because King saw that the path forward was convincing white folks that things had to change, not because they should fear blacks, but because they should be ashamed.

    Malcolm preached to blacks that they were getting a raw deal and advocated violence to get a better one. Had his path prevailed, we would never have seen the changes in the 70s and 80s that we did.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  364. He’s the one candidate with some courage that isn’t leading with his finger on the polls. Let’s get him to the debates…

    We’ve haven’t seen Christie in the candidate arena since 2015, but what I saw was a former NJ governor who has matured, and that is also a contrast from Trump, who still behaves like a 5-year old, whining about not getting what he wants.
    Christie seemed less combative; he acknowledged that he has his positions but is willing to listen others’. I found it truly refreshing, and I didn’t tune out like when Pence was issuing his stale contrived rhetoric and phony emotional posturing.

    If I were running his campaign, I’d tweet like hell and I’d take every chance to get on cable news and such. Also, I didn’t see anything in his townhall wasn’t traditionally conservative. It shows that we conservatives can present our approach in a positive way, without alienation and division and polarization.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  365. Christie has nothing to lose, unlike DeSantis or maybe some of the others. I think that Scott and Haley are finding that they are damned either way, so they might as well go with their heart instead of the fear.

    I expect by next week there will be a sea change.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  366. Rip complains they don’t attack Trump and then complains when they do. It’s almost as if other factors are involved.

    Nikki went after Trump on Jan 7th, then her backers started calling her with bad news. That was a pity, but understandable — no bucks, no future.

    Who are “they”? The only two who have “attacked” Trump consistently are Hutchinson and Christie, and they have opposed to Trump running for president from the beginning.

    No one else has changed their position regarding Trump so far. Pence is his usual wish-washy self (demanding that Garland “address the nation” to “justify” why Trump was indicted (the indictment does a pretty good doing that). Ramaswamy Is all into Trump, as is DeSantis.

    Darling Nikki needs to pick a position and hold onto it. She has had 4 or 5 positions regarding Trump since Jan 7th. To blame her “backers” suggests she has no moral compass of her own. When Haley joins Christie and Hutchinson in calling for Trump to pull out I will cut her some slack.

    I’m sure her position will change (again) sometime after tomorrow.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  367. I expect by next week there will be a sea change.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:45 pm

    Such as? Don’t keep us in suspense.

    Rip Murdock (6f4bcc)

  368. My predictions are general, like all good oracles.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  369. To blame her “backers” suggests she has no moral compass of her own.

    Politicians practice the “art of the possible.” Those that forget that go run think thanks.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  370. Scott’s initial reaction to the indictment was a disappointment. Apparently his backers told him to think twice about it.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  371. Let’s get him to the debates

    I’ll say it again: He’s asking for a mere buck apiece to get him on the debate stage.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  372. My predictions are general, like all good oracles.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:59 pm

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  373. I’m sure her position will change (again) sometime after tomorrow.

    There is only one type of politician I WILL NOT vote for: that’s an ideologue whose positions are immutable, despite all evidence or argument. To say that someone actively thinks about what is going on and adjusts is somehow weak is the kind of thing I view as strength.

    Would I prefer that Scott or Haley were moving faster towards their eventual position? Sure. But I want them to WIN more.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  374. RIP actor Treat Williams (71).

    Rip Murdock (6f4bcc)

  375. Scott’s initial reaction to the indictment was a disappointment.

    Agreed. Haley, too.

    Apparently his backers told him to think twice about it.

    It’s what Scott Walker said: Playing it safe and resting on your laurels is the fastest way out of the room. Both of them (and DeSantis) need to break with Trump. It’s one thing when the no-hopers let their hair down, but now those with some chance need to.

    It’s ironic that those with the greatest need to be done with Trump are the ones slowest to try to effect it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  376. There is only one type of politician I WILL NOT vote for: that’s an ideologue whose positions are immutable, despite all evidence or argument.

    So you would be okay if in six months she switched back and defended Trump?

    Rip Murdock (6f4bcc)

  377. I didn’t intend to gush, but I was truly surprised at how good Christie’s performance was.

    BTW, I suspended my NBA boycott for the final three minutes of the NBA championship, and I’m thrilled that the Nuggets won. Jokic is the real deal, but I’m also proud of how an 8th seed Miami Heat made it to the championship and fought tooth-and-nail. This was a good moment for this league that I dislike.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  378. I’ll bet when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th) only Hutchinson and Christie will not be defending Trump.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  379. I will be donating to the Christie and Hutchinson campaigns, and I’m not ruling out Sen. Scott.
    I don’t care if I waste a few shekels, they’re the conservatives I want to see in the Oval Office.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  380. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:09 pm

    Doesn’t matter, none of them will be challenging Trump by the time the convention starts. I don’t see any of them winning any state.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20)

  381. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:15 pm

    To protect my privacy, I donate only to dark money organizations. Once you get in a campaign’s email list, you will you be there forever.

    Rip Murdock (6f4bcc)

  382. So you would be okay if in six months she switched back and defended Trump?

    I cannot imagine what facts or arguments would lead to that. But probably not, which is why there are other candidates.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  383. I’ll bet when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th) only Hutchinson and Christie will not be defending Trump.

    Will you give odds? You seem so certain.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  384. To protect my privacy, I donate only to dark money organizations.

    So you would be okay if in six months they switched and started funding Trump?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  385. Kevin m, at 363 – no. The amendment that gave DC electoral votes didn’t change the procedure for resolving electoral college deadlocks.

    aphrael (7e55ab)

  386. when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th)

    I expect him to be indicted in Georgia, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on January 6th. I’m not saying it won’t happen, and I won’t be shocked if it does, but if I had to bet I’d bet not.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  387. Classic. Trump still hasn’t chosen a bus-bench lawyer to represent him in court tomorrow.
    C’mon, GOP, eject.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  388. As predicted, Haley and Scott have missed their opening. The cork has been popped. However, 70% of the GOP doesn’t care. They’re not looking for strident opposition to Trump….but some of that group will now get pulled away because the damage will mount. Christie is hitting him in the unpardonable way: LOSER, CHILD, SELFISH. The question is where do the soft-MAGA go?

    I predict DeSantis will not look as polished on stage as Haley or Christie…..or as likable as Scott. I can still see him imploding, but he’s got the culture-war bonafides that will keep him around 20%. I doubt that Christie can get above 20%. Of course, he has to get above 3% first.

    Sorting will be inevitable. Hopefully by the early primaries we are down to 3…and whatever hanger-ons persist at 1%. Tomorrow will be historic. Hopefully there isn’t violence. Hopefully it provides more opportunities to chisel away at soft-MAGA. I predict an attrition by 1000 cuts. Trump support believes that it is loyal to the end. We will see

    AJ_Liberty (4706a8)

  389. “I wouldn’t hold my breath on January 6th.”

    It’s certainly a longer shot because, at its heart, a failure to do your duty is less a legal matter and more an impeachment matter. But if anyone can frame it, it would be Jack Smith. Incitement is what happened but intent will be hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence of planning and foreknowledge is needed….will there be enough time to charge and flip someone?

    Personally I want to see J6 even more than the other indictments because there’s some justice in bringing it to trial. One last time to compel people to open their eyes/ears and appreciate the madness.

    AJ_Liberty (4706a8)

  390. Doesn’t matter, none of them will be challenging Trump by the time the convention starts.

    Trump will cease to be a candidate in 2013.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  391. Classic. Trump still hasn’t chosen a bus-bench lawyer to represent him in court tomorrow.

    Maybe he’ll try to represent himself.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  392. Incitement is what happened but intent will be hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence of planning and foreknowledge is needed….will there be enough time to charge and flip someone?

    They’ve already got a bunch of people looking at hard time. If Trump ever made calls to Oath Keepers et al, then we’ll certainly hear about it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  393. Personally I want to see J6 even more than the other indictments because there’s some justice in bringing it to trial.

    Yeah, I want that too, but only if the proof is there. An acquittal would be worse than no indictment at all, since many (most?) people ignorantly equate failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt with factual innocence. Anyway, if Smith has the goods, he’s done an unusually good job of keeping it under wraps. Thus my skepticism.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  394. Trump will cease to be a candidate

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:32 pm

    Please to share name of cannabis dispensary.

    Much appreciations.

    norcal (8b5267)

  395. @367 fear works better as Dr.king knew. The steel fist inside the velvet glove. Affirmative action because its nice. NO! so give blacks jobs in the buildings so they wont burn them down like 1967 newark one week detroit the next. Try affirmative action instead of burn baby burn. I remember back then black soldiers sitting down on a runway refusing to fly to detroit to shoot down their brothers and sisters. See algiers motel. The fear of black armed militants shooting back was always present back then.

    asset (68e5c8)

  396. Please to share name of cannabis dispensary.

    Sorry, cold sober. I get high off of life, man.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  397. Sen. grassley says FBI redacted what they showed congress that burisma executive has tapes talking with joe biden and hunter to black mail them. Executive says to protect him not black mail. (fox news)

    asset (68e5c8)

  398. Jim Crow ended because most of the Boomers had not bought into it yet, and saw there was no reason why they should. It was never based on fear as fear makes people get stupid.

    Jim Crow, now that WAS based on fear; fear of the freedman and how he might be upset with people who had supported slavery. So they decided to crush blacks down so that they’d never have the power to rebel.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  399. Jim crow was only one form of black suppression. A kinder gentiler machine gun hand! Mass incarceration(war on drugs crack cocain ;but not powder) and voter suppression are just two.

    asset (68e5c8)

  400. asset,

    Have you ever changed your mind because of something you read here?

    Honest question.

    norcal (8b5267)

  401. DCSCA changed my mind on something and I thanked him for it on the thread. I am trying to remember what it was. ( I am 74 and starting to feel it! )There have been others on minor points. Not here ;but I once had to change my mind on free will vs determinism and doing so was most unpleasant!

    asset (68e5c8)

  402. asset (68e5c8) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:01 am

    Cool.

    My mind has been changed a lot reading this blog. aphrael in particular influenced me for the better.

    norcal (8b5267)

  403. > A kinder gentiler machine gun hand!

    keep on rockin’ in the free world.

    aphrael (588ff0)

  404. Hi, Norcal — that is incredibly kind of you to say, and I am happy to have had that kind of effect. Thank you! 🙂

    aphrael (588ff0)

  405. “Yeah, I want that too, but only if the proof is there.”

    Mens rea is certainly the obstacle. Can the prosecutor prove, for instance, that Trump in fact knew that the election fraud claims were false, beyond a reasonable doubt? Can they persuasively show that Trump understood the law well enough to grasp that the Electoral Count Act challenge was suspect and should not be forwarded in good faith? Now maybe the counter is that Trump also had access to the best legal minds in teh government who did in fact advise him. And that close advisors, aids, and cabinet members echoed those concerns. One might also wonder, what else could he have intended? Does his inaction during the riot, in the face of his closest advisors pleading with him to act, demonstrate corrupt intent?

    All of this gets easier if the government can get an “insider” to roll, be it Mark Meadows, John Eastman, or Rudy Giuliani. Do they have enough of their own legal jeopardy to see incentive to cooperate? Can the conspiracy be broken into?

    Assisting an insurrection; obstruction of an official proceeding; conspiracy to make false statements; and conspiracy to defraud the United States government. The correct resolution was impeachment and removal. The defense appears to be that Trump’s too stupid to understand what he was doing. But let’s elect him again anyways! SMH.

    It’s not a bullet-proof case, but there’s a case to be made here, possibly in line with Judge Amit Mehta’s opinion. Does exposure in a federal court, versus the J6 committee, tear away more and more support from Trump? Would it prevent a nomination regardless of the verdict? Can the prosecution score a Colonel Jessup moment? OK, probably not, but a guy can dream. Courts shouldn’t be in the business of delegitimizing candidates, but should “stupidity” be the nullifying defense for the President of the United States. I would like that theory tested….

    AJ_Liberty (4706a8)

  406. @349

    Exactly. Thank you, Sammy.

    What McCombover & Grabass, a fully-owned subsidiary of Orange, Inc., want is to be able to waive it about and yell, “We got this from the FBI! That proves it’s authentic!”

    nk (27c28b) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:25 pm

    Again, if the FBI didn’t think it was credible, they would’ve said so.

    Ya’ll are acting like this gives Trump some cover.

    It doesn’t.

    It has zero to do with Trump.

    This is about Biden.

    whembly (d116f3)

  407. @362

    What’s credible about it? The Committee hasn’t released the FBI’s informant report or recordings. Way aren’t the Republicans holding hearings? What are they hiding?

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:57 pm

    It’s credible because it exists where evidence is normally documented at the FBI.

    It’s credible because of a whistleblower.

    It’s credible because the FBI tried like hell to prevent Congress’ oversight.

    Because Congress isn’t moving fast enough for you to conduct hearings or the like, doesn’t mean it isn’t credible.

    The House can start hearings and issuing subpoenas, but it’s a long slog as Congress has zero enforcement mechanism against a non-complaint Executive agency. The only way they can get the DOJ to “jump” is either cut off funding (good like with the Senate/Potus signoff) or go to courts (which takes many MONTHS).

    The only way this “moves”, imo, is if that Burisma executive is willing to share those tapes with the GOP and I don’t see why this executive *would* do that.

    whembly (d116f3)

  408. @381

    I didn’t intend to gush, but I was truly surprised at how good Christie’s performance was.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:10 pm

    Christie has always been a master at townhalls/debates.

    He was the “assassin” in 2015 that took down Rubio.

    whembly (d116f3)

  409. whembly, I’ll ask again, why would an Burisma executive pay a $10M bribe to remove a prosecutor who was not currently investigating Burisma and was not thretaneing an investigation? What sense does it make? Just because someone claimed there was a “pee tape” doesn’t mean there was one, right?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  410. a prosecutor who was not currently investigating Burisma and was not thretaneing an investigation

    Is there irrefutable evidence that this claim is 100% true? And by that, I don’t just mean that people merely said it was this way; I am looking for the same standard that contends that Grassley and his sourcing are not credible until all the documents are released and there are hearings.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  411. So you would be okay if in six months she switched back and defended Trump?

    I cannot imagine what facts or arguments would lead to that. But probably not, which is why there are other candidates.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:22 pm

    LOL! A politician doesn’t need any facts or arguments to switch positions. What facts or arguments did Darling Nikki provide in changing her pro-Trump position on Friday to her new position yesterday?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  412. Trump will cease to be a candidate in 2023.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:32 pm

    I’ll take that bet.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  413. I’ll bet when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th) only Hutchinson and Christie will not be defending Trump.

    Will you give odds? You seem so certain.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:23 pm

    It’s based on their response to date every time Trump has been indicted. It’s a pretty safe bet.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  414. It’s credible because of a whistleblower.

    LOL! Like a “whistleblower” wouldn’t lie. His/her statements (and motive) need to be tested in public with documentation.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  415. What facts or arguments did Darling Nikki provide in changing her pro-Trump position on Friday to her new position yesterday?

    “Provide”? You obviously misread what I wrote. In case you didn’t hear, there was this indictment that was published and reading it (which a card-carrying Trumpist will never do) might have been decisive.

    People who refuse to change their position when confronted by new facts or arguments are uninteresting.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  416. “Is there irrefutable evidence that this claim is 100% true?”

    After his firing, Biden had no leverage on Shokin. If Shokin had an actionable investigation against Burisma, then where is the evidence of this? What is the fact-pattern of illegality being asserted against Burisma? If Shokin had proof that he was fired to prevent an investigation, why would he not reveal this? The absence of evidence is pretty damning evidence.

    A complementary fact is that the EU and IMF were both pushing for the removal of Shokin prior to Biden’s involvement. The documented reason was that he was ineffective in pursuing actual corruption. Their argument has a basis or it doesn’t. Common sense then wonders if the EU and IMF also had children working at Burisma that needed protecting. Unfortunately no reporting of this either.

    Again, I’m not pushing the thesis that Biden is guilty of bribery. I shouldn’t have to prove a negative. Show that Shokin was actively investigating. All this sounds like ad hoc rationalization to protect Trump’s dumb theory.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  417. Removing Shokin was also the official policy of the United States.

    It wasn’t because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden’s son; it was because Shokin wasn’t pursuing corruption among the country’s politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

    Shokin’s inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine’s parliament.

    Without pressure from Joe Biden, European diplomats, the International Monetary Fund and other international organizations, Shokin would not have been fired, said Daria Kaleniuk, co-founder and executive director of the Anti Corruption Action Centre in Kiev.

    “Civil society organizations in Ukraine were pressing for his resignation,” Kaleniuk said, “but no one would have cared if there had not been voices from outside this country calling on him to go.”
    ……….
    Burisma Holdings was not under scrutiny at the time Joe Biden called for Shokin’s ouster, according to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, an independent agency set up in 2014 that has worked closely with the FBI.

    Shokin’s office had investigated Burisma, but the probe focused on a period before Hunter Biden joined the company, according to the anti-corruption bureau.
    ……….
    “A big part of our diplomacy was pushing the Ukrainian government to clean up the corruption, partly because it was that corruption that allowed Russia to manipulate the country politically and economically,” said Charlie Kupchan, who served as a special assistant to President Barack Obama and a senior director for European Affairs on the National Security Council.

    Biden used U.S. aid as “a stick to move Ukraine forward,” Kupchan said. “He was acting alongside our European allies. Everybody was of a single mind that this prosecutor was not the right guy for the job.”
    ………
    (Steven Pifer, a William J. Perry fellow at Stanford University and former ambassador to Ukraine under President Bill Clinton.), who also oversaw diplomacy with Russia and Ukraine under President George W. Bush, said it was appropriate for Biden to use U.S. aid as leverage. He said he used similar methods to pressure Ukraine.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  418. You have theories as to why your claim is true. There is some decent circumstantial items you detail. But not the same level of proof that is demanded of Grassley. Do I have that correct, AJ?

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  419. Burisma Holdings was not under scrutiny at the time Joe Biden called for Shokin’s ouster, according to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, an independent agency set up in 2014 that has worked closely with the FBI.

    I’m assuming this tidbit is from the congressional record of the specific hearings?

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  420. So, what did Burisma think the were getting from Hunter Biden? Were they looking for influence? Did they get it? Or were they just seeking Joe Biden’s goodwill?

    It is hard to believe that they hired Hunter for his skills and experience.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  421. Haley’s problem is that she didn’t do like Christie and reserve weighing in one way or the other before studying the indictment closely. Instead, she gave the party line of prosecutorial over-reach and double standards. Well, then she had the problem of being the national security candidate that was weak on protecting national secrets. Even if you buy that her hot take was superseded by a more cool analysis, it’s more fodder for those that say she wants it both ways. The problem is that Christie is providing a stark contrast. There’s no appearance of him putting his finger to the wind and seeing how responses will poll. Certainly, like Hutchinson, Christie has no clear path to win hard or soft-MAGA. His only path is boldness. He has nothing to lose.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  422. His only path is boldness. He has nothing to lose.

    And really, that is a dynamic that will drive all the candidates to take a stand. As Christie said (I watched a recording), you cannot run a campaign without referring to your main competitor.

    Those that actually have something to lose will move more deliberately, but eventually it will become clear that fence-straddling is the worst move.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  423. I note that Christie thinks a Miami trial is possible by year-end. There is great pressure to get this done before the primaries start.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  424. “There is some decent circumstantial items you detail. But not the same level of proof that is demanded of Grassley.”

    Grassley is giving the Trump base the Kabuki theater they want. It’s a big internet. Does even Shokin allege illegality by Burisma at the time of his firing? I can’t imagine that no one has asked him in 7 years and that no one has asked him to provide evidence. At some point, doesn’t common sense take over?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  425. “There is great pressure to get this done before the primaries start.”

    The defendant will drive the schedule, given the case in unprecedented with complicated national security evidence. I would be shocked if it starts before March.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  426. So “common sense” is the evidentiary threshold?

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  427. The defendant will drive the schedule

    What, exactly, does the defense need time to do? Besides hire lawyers who can review the discovery material? Judging by the indictment, the prosecution isn’t going to try to make that difficult.

    Or are we talking about all the dilatory appeals that Trump excels at? I expect that much of that will be handled in the express lane.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  428. Grassley says he has read the unredacted 1023. The FBI provided the House a redacted version of an unclassified 1023. The FBI redacted the portion where the person claimed they have damning tapes of the Bidens.

    https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/remarks/grassley-fbi-redacted-references-to-recordings-in-biden-allegation-shared-with-congress

    What does common sense suggest is going on?

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  429. The absolutely best thing for Donald Trump (and the worst for Biden, the GOP and the country) is to have the trial ready to start after most of the primaries are over and Trump is the presumptive nominee. At that point the government will have to delay until after the election and Trump will run for re-election as David who beat Goliath.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  430. What does common sense suggest is going on?

    BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:04 am

    Selective leaks without any proof.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  431. Grassley says, Comer says. When does the public get to see it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  432. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:13 am

    Probably never. The Oversight Committee will probably claim it’s “law enforcement sensitive”; the same reason the FBI didn’t want to show it to the Committee at all. But the Committee will continue to leak allegations without proof.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  433. National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine says….

    When does the public get to see it?

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  434. National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine says….

    When does the public get to see it?

    When Daddy comes home from work. Now have some cookies and milk!

    nk (f18a30)

  435. Live broadcast of Trump motorcade from Doral to the Federal Courthouse, along with the Trump Army.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  436. The problem with Scott’s and Haley’s positions regarding Trump’s indictment is that they both attack the DOJ and FBI while nibbling around the edges in condemning Trump. They still want it both ways, which will only alienate more from the majority of the Republican Party that backs Trump (76% pre-indictment).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  437. BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:04 am

    The FBI redacted the portion where the person claimed they have damning tapes of the Bidens.

    https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/remarks/grassley-fbi-redacted-references-to-recordings-in-biden-allegation-shared-with-congress

    What does common sense suggest is going on?

    The FBI or DOJ didn’t want to answer questions about why they didn’t try (harder) to get the informant to put up or shut up about the tapes (supposedly 15 conversations with Hunter Biden and 2 with Joe Biden)

    The informant was probably trying to interfere with another investigation by making false claims.

    I heard something about how someone else was supposed to be the tareget of the bribe.

    And there might have been a slight feeling that they didn’t want it to be true, (although the bribe claim was illogical)

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  438. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:06 am

    . At that point the government will have to delay until after the election and Trump will run for re-election as David who beat Goliath

    No,,, it won’t. Indictments get delayed because they have political implications, not trials.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  439. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:37 am

    So, what did Burisma think the were getting from Hunter Biden? Were they looking for influence? Did they get it? Or were they just seeking Joe Biden’s goodwill?

    Neither. They were trying to create the appearance of corruption in order to cause people in Ukraine to believe that the “fix” was in (due to enormous financial support the U.S. was giving to Ukraine) so they would not pursue investigations into Burisma.

    Appearance, not reality, because Obama, not Biden, would have been the person to bribe in 2014-16. But you could make believe that Hunter Biden was forwarding some money to Obama.

    Incidentally, that s still going on, because president Zelensky told his aides back in 2019 or 2020 that Burisma had to be an exception to their anti-corruption actions because Ukraine needed the support of both parties in the United States.

    It is hard to believe that they hired Hunter for his skills and experience.

    There was also his connections in Delaware to lawyers who could give them ideas for maintaining corporate control that might not be legal in the United States but were never prohibited in Ukraine and the fact that he would be a pliant member of the Board of Directors.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  440. Neither. They were trying to create the appearance of corruption in order to cause people in Ukraine to believe that the “fix” was in (due to enormous financial support the U.S. was giving to Ukraine) so they would not pursue investigations into Burisma.

    Oh, please. That is so highly speculative it is to laugh.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  441. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:33 am

    hembly, I’ll ask again, why would an Burisma executive pay a $10M bribe to remove a prosecutor who was not currently investigating Burisma and was not thretaneing an investigation?

    Who says that they wanted the prosecutor fired?

    Joe Biden almost certainly had nothing to do with firing him.

    The stories he told about his being a vice president with superpowers who flabbergasted the U.S> Ambassador to Ukraine (in the August 2016 additional material interview with the Atlantic) and the cancelled press conference (in the Q&A portion of his speech to the Council on Foreign Relations on January 23, 2018) were probably all made up out of whole cloth!

    But nobody has picked up on it because the few Democrats who understand that Biden lied about causing the firing of the prosecutor are protecting Biden and the Republicans are clueless and protecting Trump.

    And George Kent who could tell the truth about all this is still working for the State Department as Ambassador to Estonia.

    What sense does it make? Just because someone claimed there was a “pee tape” doesn’t mean there was one, right?

    There was also an informant later, And it was supposed to be available through the Russian embassy in Berlin, IIRC

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  442. 444. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:24 am

    That is so highly speculative it is to laugh.

    It couldn’t have been actual corruption because the person to bribe would have been Obama, nit Biden.

    It is morre probable thsat Hunter would be a notional recipient of a bribe to Obsms thsn a real one.

    Besides Burisma;s lawyers were trying to argue that the fix was in. IIRC

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  443. Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:35 am

    Again, your speculations are unprovable.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  444. Reasonable speculation: Burisma couldn’t find anyone close to Obama to be the notional conduit of a bribe, but they did manage to find someone close to Biden. This is logical. The wider you cast your net, the more likely you’ll find something.

    Burisma needed to influence people in Ukraine, not the United States. It is easier to create an appearance of corruption than to make a real deal – and bribing anyone connected with the the U.S.A was not only secondhand bribery, but should be more expensive

    They also ot someone who had had a position in the Polish government.

    https://www.newsweek.com/ex-polish-president-burisma-board-suggests-hunter-biden-never-said-anything-about-his-father-1474728

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  445. unprovable at this stage.

    But the other idea (that Hunter was taking a bribe to influence U.S> policy through his father) is almost disproven.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  446. Hunter never had to do anything for Burisma – not even vote.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  447. He was just there on the board to be seen (and used to” prove” that the fix was in)

    How many people in Ukraine knew what was a realistic possibility and what was not? Burisma needed people in Ukraine to believe a power greater than they could defy was protecting it.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  448. Not only Haley, but he also. Where’s a famous Denzel Washington Training Day GIF message when I need it?!

    urbanleftbehind (701572)

  449. There’s no evidence Shokin was investigating Burisma or Zlochevsky or Hunter when Joe Biden called for his sacking, noted
    here,
    here,
    here and
    here.
    By getting Shokin fired, chances were greater that Burisma and Zlochevsky and Hunter would get investigated. Unfortunately, although Lutsenko was superior to Shokin, his tenure was generally a disappointment and he was let go not long after Zelenskyy came into office.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  450. Trump’s Singlewide Scientologists are out in force in front of the Miami courthouse.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  451. Just stories, Paul. Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  452. “Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.”

    What’s the Grassley threshold?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  453. aley did say she would be inclined to pardon Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  454. Miami court proceedings are over and Trump’s motorcade hs left to go the airport and fly back to New Jersey (Mar-a-Lago is closed up – Trump spent time at the Doral)

    Trump was there with his valet and co-defendant, Waltine Nauta sitting beside him. Nauta was nnot arraigned because he did not have local counselm-, as required in federal court, and something willll resume in two weeeks but he does not need to be there,

    Trump was released, signed some papers with his own pen, with no conditions (the Magistrate judge asked the prosecution if they wanted any (travel) restrictions – they said no, except one condition added by the judge, not to communicate with witnesses (and I think Nauta) about the case – Trump’s lawyer pointed out that some would be Secret Service, and he had to be near them. The prosecution and defense will later agree upon a list.

    Trump was silent throughout – his plea was entered by his lawyer – and had a frown on his face and so on. Similar to the New York City arraignment. A difference was that the judge in Manhattan addressed him as Mr. Trump but here he was addressed as “former president Trump”

    There were dozen to hundreds of Trump supporters outside and the same number of media.

    At the end the judge said there was good news – his role in the case is now over and that drew a smile form Trump

    Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6)

  455. Just stories, Paul. Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.

    What was incorrect about there being no evidence of Shokin investigating? Trumpists like you are claiming he was, so the onus is you.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  456. I was not claiming he did anything, Paul.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  457. Well this is some news I haven’t seen discussed.

    Somebody discussed it.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  458. I was not claiming he did anything, Paul.

    Other than a lame attempt at burden-shifting, BuDuh, what was your point?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  459. Just stories, Paul. Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.

    BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:11 pm

    Which for all intents and purposes, are rumors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  460. Just stories, Paul. Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.

    BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:11 pm

    Which for all intents and purposes, are rumors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:28 pm

    Meaning the Grassley threshold.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  461. Wish you were here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  462. I think we are agreeing, Rip.

    Paul, is there a nice way we can discuss things? I was challenging something AJ said. I have not burden shifted a thing.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  463. Oh, please. That is so highly speculative it is to laugh.

    It’s Sammy, Rip. You should know this by now.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  464. If you’re challenging something AJ said, BuDuh, then take it up with AJ.

    I don’t know what you mean by “Grassley Threshold”, and it’s not clear to me what your point of contention is with AJ.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  465. I think we are agreeing, Rip.

    I doubt that.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  466. @458: Again, what’s the Grassley threshold?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  467. I thought your completely on topic comment about Shokin was you coming into my comments to AJ, Paul.

    My mistake.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  468. Rip nails it at 1:29pm, AJ.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  469. I was just adding supplemental information about Shokin and his sacking.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  470. Sad!

    ……….
    …..(I)f protesters (at Trump’s arraignment) sought to show unity and organization, what they accomplished was a disorganized display of MAGA spectacles, flaunting a pig’s head on a pike and getting the street shut down over an abandoned television.

    ……..(T)urnout was modest on Tuesday morning, despite efforts by pro-Trump figures like rapper Forgiato Blow to gin up attendance for a 10 a.m. rally.

    “What I like about this, we been supporting Trump since day one and never switch up on Donald Trump, man what’s up. DeSant-heads need to get out here and get with Trump,” Blow (real name Kurt Jantz) said in a video outside the courthouse on Tuesday, referencing Trump’s GOP rival and Florida’s governor, Ron DeSantis.
    ………
    Other eccentric characters also turned up early to the courthouse.

    Osmany Estrada, 40, proudly donned an American and Cuban flag as he paraded around the courthouse with a pig’s head on a pike, posing for photos with anyone who asked, but mostly dodging TV crews that swarmed him.

    Like many others who weathered blistering heat and humidity to sing Trump’s praises, Estrada said he was confident the former president would quickly be found not guilty. He said he became even more certain of a Trump victory when Judge Aileen Cannon, a Trump appointee, was selected to preside over the case.

    “She’s one of us,” Estrada said, referencing Cannon’s Cuban heritage. “We already know what’s going to happen—this corruption won’t stand. Everyone here knows that. That’s why you see so many smiles. We’re all just enjoying this beautiful moment before we win again.”
    ………
    Estrada said he didn’t have a good reason for carrying around a pig’s head on a pike, but confirmed the dead animal was real.

    “Sometimes you just have to be bold,” he said.
    ………
    Meanwhile, Tim Gionet, a far-right personality who goes by “Baked Alaska,” live streamed himself outside the courthouse on Tuesday. Gionet was recently released from prison, where he was serving 60 days for his participation in the Jan. 6 Capitol attack. (He was also found guilty last year of defacing a Hanukkah display. “No more Happy Hanukkah, only Merry Christmas. This is a disgrace,” Gionet said in a live stream of the vandalism.)
    ………
    Lauren Witzke, a far-right conspiracy theorist who unsuccessfully ran for U.S. Senate in Delaware, also live-streamed from a demonstration organized by anti-Muslim activist Laura Loomer. During her live stream, she wondered out loud if “federal agents” were undercover at the courthouse protests. “Let’s count the FBI in this protest,” read a sign carried by a pro-Trump protester she interviewed. Witzke later contemplated if the man holding the sign—which had toy-water guns attached—was a “fed” himself.
    ………
    Toward the beginning of the rally, Loomer claimed that Trump’s team had called her on Tuesday morning to express their support for her event.

    “President Trump, his staff called me this morning,” Loomer yelled. “President Trump is grateful for the rally. His staff personally called me and said they were with President Trump this morning, and he wants to thank everybody for coming out today. They are very happy that this rally is taking place. They want it peaceful.”
    ………..
    Loomer had good reason to talk up Trump’s support for her efforts, as The Daily Beast reported Monday evening that Trump’s own advisers thought protests outside of the Miami courthouse were a bad idea.
    ………
    ………(I)n the end, with low turnout numbers, Trump supporters found a familiar boogeyman.

    “I think MAGA has to be beyond cautious and weary [sic] of Feds creating another trap like Jan 6,” Trump ally Jackson Lahmeyer told The Daily Beast.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  471. Rip nails it at 1:29pm, AJ.

    BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:56 pm

    You obviously misunderstood my post; I would associate myself with AJ’s and Paul’s posts. I would bet Paul Montagu’s links are far more authoritative than anything released so far by Grassley and Comer. The “Grassley threshold” is a bar so low it’s underground. The Biden allegations are about as accurate as the Steele Dossier, in fact, if it weren’t for the dossier’s rumor-mongering about President Trump, Grassley and Comer would have no reason to publicize their rumors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  472. whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:29 pm

    In the past I’ve thought that packing the entire federal government into DC is a bad idea, but the obvious benefits of proximity are hard to argue against.

    Now, after Covid, we’ve seen that substantial business can be handled at VERY low cost via telecom. What made sense in the 17th Century, or even the 20th, may not be important in an age where one can have a video conference with 20 people on 4 continents, for very little cost, and get things done.

    Spread it all out. Put the Agriculture Department in Kansas or Nebraska. The DoJ in Portland. That kind of thing.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  473. RIP Pulitzer Prize winning author Cormac McCarthy (89).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  474. “President Trump, his staff called me this morning,” Loomer yelled. “President Trump is grateful for the rally”

    And so begins his descent into the 3rd-party wilderness of fringe kooks and pig’s heads.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  475. Ok, I get it now Rip.

    Paul, Rip, AJ, I apologize for meddling.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  476. The media says look at the evidence. Trump supporters who will get on jury in miami ;but not d.c. say the evidence says clinton guilty but not prosecuted! Same with bidens. If prosecutors try to keep trump supporters off jury things will get interesting as mr. spock says. Evidence will mean nothing to trump jurors. As the black juror who walked passed o.j. simpson after finding him not guilty told him “this is for rodney king!” and their are many other instances of this.

    asset (c69304)

  477. There Is Hope:

    ……….
    “If (Trump) is convicted of these charges of mishandling this information, of knowingly concealing his actions, I don’t think, I certainly won’t support a convicted felon for the White House,” he said.
    ……….
    Buck noted comments Trump previously made during the 2016 presidential election accusing his Democratic rival, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, of being unfit for office because of her handling of emails that contained classified information on a private server.

    “So I think his words will set the standard that America will look at in determining whether he is fit for president,” he said.

    Buck said he believes the charges against Trump are “very serious” and that special counsel Jack Smith, who has been overseeing the probe into Trump, included a lot of detail to explain to the country why indicting him was necessary.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  478. @478

    whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:29 pm

    In the past I’ve thought that packing the entire federal government into DC is a bad idea, but the obvious benefits of proximity are hard to argue against.

    Now, after Covid, we’ve seen that substantial business can be handled at VERY low cost via telecom. What made sense in the 17th Century, or even the 20th, may not be important in an age where one can have a video conference with 20 people on 4 continents, for very little cost, and get things done.

    Spread it all out. Put the Agriculture Department in Kansas or Nebraska. The DoJ in Portland. That kind of thing.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:11 pm

    Exactly.

    And, I think the DeSantis crew is right in that it HAS to be done early in the administration. You just know the powers-that-be in DC is going to resist and try to fight it in courts.

    Outside of the Pentagon, all other agencies should be spread out across the US imo.

    In fact, I would go further. No FBI or DOJ “headquarters”. Make leadership be roving commanders visiting each divisions across the US. Give these leadership their private planes and nice hotels when they travel, but no concentrated leadership at “HQ” that would foster incestuous scenarios in DC.

    whembly (d116f3)

  479. Ramaswamy Puts Rivals on Spot With Trump Pardon Pledge

    Most of Donald Trump’s rivals for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination have been reacting cagily to the 45th president’s federal criminal indictment over mishandling of classified documents and related offenses. ……… Nikki Haley was most explicit about having it both ways, as The Hill reported:
    ……….
    The exceptions to the pattern of equivocation have been Asa Hutchinson, who called on Trump to “end his campaign,” and Vivek Ramaswamy, who greeted news of the indictment with an immediate promise to pardon Trump of federal charges if he’s elected president.

    Now Ramaswamy, who clearly knows how not only to grab but to maintain media attention, is upping the ante, sending a letter to his rivals (and even to Democratic candidates Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Marianne Williamson) challenging them to join him in pledging to pardon Trump, according to The Hill:

    “Each of our paths to electoral success would be easier if President Trump were eliminated from competition, but that is the wrong result for our country. The fact that we are running against Trump gives us credibility to denounce this politicized prosecution,” Ramaswamy wrote.

    “I condemn these charges by the U.S. Department of Justice. Below, I have signed a commitment to pardon President Trump promptly on January 20, 2025, for the federal charges … I respectfully request that you join me in this commitment or else publicly explain why you will not,” he added in his letter.

    ………..
    The pardon pledge makes it possible for Ramaswamy to have it both ways as well, insofar as presidential pardons can succor the admittedly guilty as well as the allegedly innocent. ……..
    ……….
    So without getting down in the weeds of assessing the legality or morality of the former president’s actions and intentions, Ramaswamy has endeared himself to Trump’s supporters with an assurance that their hero will not wind up in prison (or at least federal prison; presidents can’t pardon those convicted of state criminal offenses). And by discomfiting Trump’s other (and, let’s face it, more formidable) rivals, the 37-year-old anti-woke crusader has very likely won the enduring favor of the document-hoarder of Mar-a-Lago himself. While the appearances-obsessed Trump might demur from considering a 2024 ticket with the unwieldy moniker of Trump-Ramaswamy, there will probably be a nice appointment waiting for the budding politician if there is a second Trump administration.

    ………Could we see a presidential election in which a future pardon — or perhaps even self-pardon — is a dominant issue? It’s becoming entirely possible.
    #########

    Related:

    Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy has filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request seeking communication between the White House and the Justice Department concerning the second indictment of his GOP rival, former President Donald Trump.

    Ramaswamy said he filed the request “to demand *exactly* what the White House Communicated to [Attorney General] Merrick Garland & [Special Counsel] Jack Smith about the unprecedented indictment of a former U.S. President & Biden’s disfavored opponent in this election.”

    “Every American deserves to know,” Ramaswamy said ahead of a Tuesday press conference in Miami. “If the captured media fails to do its job, real leaders in this country need to step up and do it instead.”

    Ramaswamy, who is among an increasingly growing list of GOP candidates, said his bid for the White House would be easier if Trump “were eliminated from running, but that is not the right answer for our nation. America First Always.”
    ………..

    Of course, if no communications are available, he can easily claim a coverup.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  480. I’m encouraged by the low turnout in Miami for Trump. Hopefully the worm will soon turn, and Trump will become the political equivalent of Myspace.

    Then what Kevin said will become true. Nobody will admit to having been a Trump fan.

    Trump is two things he likes to call everyone else: a loser (2018–by extension, 2020, and 2022–by extension) and a RINO (A true Republican would never call for termination of the Constitution).

    norcal (8b5267)

  481. I’m sure (Darling Nikki’s) position (regarding Trump) will change (again) sometime after tomorrow.

    Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:53 pm

    True that:

    Darling Nikki Changes Her Position Again (and Again):

    After calling Donald Trump “reckless,” Nikki Haley on Tuesday said she would still be “inclined” to pardon him if he is convicted of federal charges.

    Haley’s remarks on the conservative Clay Travis and Buck Sexton radio show came after the former U.N. ambassador and GOP presidential candidate on Monday said the allegations against Trump, if true, show that he put “all of our military men and women in danger.”
    ………..
    “When you look at a pardon, the issue is less about guilt and more about what’s good for the country,” Haley said. “And I think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of a documents case.

    “So I would be inclined in favor of a pardon.”
    ……….
    Haley’s evolving responses to Trump’s ongoing legal dilemma illustrate the difficulty his opponents are having in using the charges as a line of attack. On Friday, Haley’s initial reaction was to discredit the case against him, saying “this is not how justice should be pursued in our country.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  482. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-argument-no-3-the-hillary-clinton-precedent/

    That is why the other contention being made by the most ardent Trump supporters, the most dangerous contention, is that the Biden Justice Department, like its Obama-Biden forebear, is so pervasively politicized that its prosecutions are illegitimate — all of them. For now, I sense this argument is rhetorical. I haven’t heard Donald Trump or his base argue that the prison doors should swing open because everything the FBI and the DOJ do is tainted, and therefore no prosecution is credible. But if the political class thinks that it can persist in an unabashedly two-tiered justice system, and that the docile masses will just go along, it is playing with fire.

    Preach.

    whembly (6f1930)

  483. When I am President, I will also pardon Mr. Former President Trump and, not only that, I will see to it that every family in America gets a proportionate wedge of green cheese sliced from the Moon and delivered to their homes by flying pigs.

    That BS from the wannabes ain’t even news. It’s fart noises with syllables.

    nk (94bfc5)

  484. I’d wildly speculate than Shokin was whispering to Burisma about investigating Burisma for corruption unless Burisma engaged in further corruption by paying him off and instead Burisma engaged in a form of corruption with a better return on investment that got Shokin shown the door and the dud son of Joe Biden a payday and a reason to visit Ukrainian hookers a couple times per year.

    steveg (22d520)

  485. What you all want to look for in the next two weeks or so is a motion to sever by co-defendant Walt Nauta, Trump’s valet. It will be a critical point in the case.

    For example, you all know that the government cannot call a defendant as a witness, right? A co-defendant can. Imagine it!

    And that’s by no means the only scenario.

    nk (94bfc5)

  486. I think my speculation covers the “who benefits” question pretty well from Burisma all the way down to hookers and crack dealers

    steveg (22d520)

  487. if the political class thinks that it can persist in an unabashedly two-tiered justice system, and that the docile masses will just go along, it is playing with fire.

    As if the “mishandling of classified information universe” consists only of Mike Pence, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump. If anything, Trump is being treated like everyone else (which I am certain is galling to him.)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  488. What you all want to look for in the next two weeks or so is a motion to sever by co-defendant Walt Nauta, Trump’s valet. It will be a critical point in the case.

    Nauta was held in handcuffs and had this mug shot taken, unlike Trump, so another example of the two-tiered justice system. Apparently Nauta, who was unwilling to testify to the grand jury, is willing to go down with ship.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  489. Trump is being treated *better* than everyone else would be if they’d done what he’d done.

    Nauta is willing to go down with the ship *now* but that it is likely to change once he gets a lawyer and the lawyer talks to him.

    aphrael (588ff0)

  490. As if the “mishandling of classified information universe” consists only of Mike Pence, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump. If anything, Trump is being treated like everyone else (which I am certain is galling to him.)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:45 pm

    True that:

    Like former President Donald J. Trump, Lt. Col. Robert Birchum was accused in Florida of mishandling classified documents. Like the former president, he was charged with violating the Espionage Act.

    But unlike Mr. Trump, Mr. Birchum, 55, a highly decorated Air Force intelligence officer, took full responsibility. His lawyer said he expressed “true remorse.” He even cooperated with investigators, providing information about how he kept hundreds of secret papers for almost a decade in his home, an overseas office and a storage pod.

    Despite all that, Mr. Birchum still got three years in prison when he was sentenced this month.
    ………
    Unlike Mr. Birchum, whose sentence was most likely reduced because he cooperated with prosecutors and was not charged with orchestrating a cover-up, Mr. Trump has signaled no willingness to cede any ground. ……..
    ……….
    Since 2018, there have been about a dozen criminal prosecutions of people retaining classified or national defense information, according to the Justice Department.

    In many of the cases, the defendants received lengthy prison sentences, reflecting how seriously the government takes protecting the country’s secrets.

    Two former analysts at the National Security Agency — Harold Martin and Nghia Hoang Pho — received nine years and five and a half years in prison, respectively, for taking classified information home. Mr. Martin, a Navy veteran, admitted that for nearly two decades, he stuffed his home office, car and garden shed with 50 terabytes of information, much of it stamped “classified.” It was one of the largest thefts of classified documents in history, officials said.

    In April, Jeremy Brown, 48, a former Special Forces sergeant, was sentenced to seven years and three months in prison for retention of classified information as well as other crimes. …….
    ……….
    Last year, Kendra Kingsbury, an F.B.I. analyst, pleaded guilty to two counts of unlawfully retaining national security documents at her Dodge City, Kan., home. Prosecutors said she had retained 386 classified documents on hard drives and compact discs.

    She is scheduled to be sentenced next week, in a case that will be watched closely by the government and Mr. Trump’s legal team. …….
    ……….
    But there have been previous instances of prosecutions involving the mishandling of classified information by politicians or highly placed government officials.

    All of those cases involved misdemeanor allegations, not felony charges of violating the Espionage Act.

    In the late 1990s, John M. Deutch, a former C.I.A. director, was under investigation by the Justice Department for mishandling classified information. He was considering pleading guilty to misdemeanor charges but was pardoned by President Bill Clinton on his last day in office.

    In 2005, Sandy Berger, Mr. Clinton’s former national security adviser, was ordered by a judge to pay a $50,000 fine for illegally taking classified documents from the National Archives. …….

    A decade later, David H. Petraeus, another former C.I.A. director, pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of mishandling classified materials. He was placed on probation and fined $100,000.
    ……….

    Deutch, Berger, and Petraeus were indicted when the law allowed misdemeanor charges for mishandling classified information. In 2018, President Trump signed a law which made it a five-year felony to mishandle classified information. See also here for others convicted of mishandling and retaining classified information.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  491. Allahnick continues to impress me. Here is his closing paragraph in yesterday’s article:

    And if I were Jack Smith or Merrick Garland, I’d resent it terribly that anyone expects me to solve a “Trump problem” that Republicans created, have had seven years to solve, and have refused to address at every turn. A rotten people will not be saved by a few well-placed virtuous actors. Eventually, one way or another, they’ll work their will.

    (Bold part mine)

    https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/a-corrupt-bargain/

    I’m not regretting my subscription to The Dispatch, and I can see why Patterico considers Nick to be the best writer on the internet.

    norcal (8b5267)

  492. Let’s see where the dust settles on the GOP response. Nikki would have been better served by not speaking right away. I know there is pressure on all of them to pick a side and trying to have it both ways (or oscillating as Haley is doing) is not good.

    By sometime next week there should be some clarity. I would hope that candidates (and perhaps the Speaker) will notice that the loud defenders are also the few and move to more open criticism.

    It’s one thing for 4th tier candidates to speak boldly — Hutchinson has a job in Arkansas as long as he wants one, and Christie seems to have a comfortable retirement — but those with even an outside chance need to measure their words. “If you come at the king, you best not miss.”

    The ball is actually in DeSantis’ court.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  493. “If you come at the king, you best not miss.”

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:15 pm

    One is guaranteed to miss if one never takes a shot.

    norcal (8b5267)

  494. In 2005, Sandy Berger, Mr. Clinton’s former national security adviser, was ordered by a judge to pay a $50,000 fine for illegally taking classified documents from the National Archives.

    … and destroying them so they could not be available for the 9/11 Commission to see Clinton’s handwritten notes on why they didn’t kill bin Ladin in the 90’s. That’s felony obstruction of a major Congressional investigation and it was not charged. Professional courtesy or something.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  495. One is guaranteed to miss if one never takes a shot.

    Yes, but shooting and missing has its own consequences.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  496. Who will break with Trump first? DeSantis, Scott or Haley?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  497. It’s interesting to consider that, while Richard Nixon had ethical challenges, everything he did as President was for the country (as he saw it). Even in resigning, he did so knowing the country would be better off for his resignation.

    It’s interesting that Nixon is now rated about the same as Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter, circa 28th out of 45. He was never the mediocrity that suggests, it’s just an average of his many contributions and his abject failure with Watergate.

    Trump will remain near the bottom. Not as bad as Andrew Johnson or James Buchanan, but not much better either. Maybe he’ll rise a bit for the judges, but I’m guessing not.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  498. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:35 pm

    Yes, and don’t forget that Nixon didn’t contest the results of the 1960 election, when fraud was more probable than the 2020 election.

    norcal (8b5267)

  499. If it had just been Illinois, he might have. But he’d still have needed 17 more electoral votes to swing to win. There were also 12 uncommitted Democrat electors who might not have voted for Strom Thurmond if it was close.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  500. > Maybe he’ll rise a bit for the judges

    That depends on what percentage of his judges turn out to be like Gorsuch and what percentage turns out to be like Cannon.

    aphrael (80f4aa)

  501. “Who will break with Trump first? DeSantis, Scott or Haley?”

    Let’s ponder where things are going. The more I hear from experienced prosecutors, the more skeptical that I am that this round of indictments will see the courtroom before 8 months. So there will be motions and appeals and more motions, with the most significant being the challenges to client-lawyer privilege. Team Trump will delay delay delay, straining to get to the convention …and hopefully to the general election. I’m sure they wouldn’t complain if Biden drops dead in the interim.

    So, there won’t be much new news spilling out against Trump until August when Georgia likely drops. Then, we get a second wave of Trump exhaustion and fatigue. Now, how will Georgia play? Does Trump finding 2020 votes mean “try harder” or does it mean “we will manipulate the vote count…or try”? Will MAGA care?

    DeSantis is probably playing conservative, counting on indictment exhaustion making the case for him. He can continue, “Hey I’d love to support him but he’s just too wounded. I will be more effective…and can prosecute the culture war better”. And it looks like Scott and Haley are playing to sweep in if DeSantis crashes and burns. Is this smart? Surely they have more data than us. NeverTrump doesn’t have much play.

    My guess is that we may not see much until the first debate towards the end of August. All three will be markedly more negative.

    AJ_Liberty (743261)

  502. “Preach.”

    Trumps biggest failure was not putting Hillary in jail, despite his promises.

    Davethulhu (947ef6)

  503. Looks like we got another jim jones in kenya. The body count is growing. (DU)

    asset (cdef93)

  504. Trumps biggest failure was not putting Hillary in jail, despite his promises.

    She would have been tried in DC and been acquitted, or maybe plead it out to a misdemeanor. It’s not like the apparatchiks were hostile to her.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  505. More like this:

    GOP senator blocks arms sale to Hungary for stalling Sweden’s NATO bid

    Sen. James E. Risch, the top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, is halting a $735 million U.S. arms sale to Hungary as punishment for the country’s refusal to approve NATO membership for Sweden, a rare move aimed at pressuring Budapest into greenlighting the military alliance’s expansion ahead of a major summit next month.

    In a statement to The Washington Post, Risch (Idaho) said Hungary must allow Sweden into NATO if it wants the arms package, which includes 24 HIMARS rocket launcher batteries and more than 100 rockets and pods along with associated parts and support.

    The decision to slam the brakes on new arms sales to Budapest demonstrates the growing anger toward Hungary by NATO backers like Risch, who rarely holds up arms sales to countries in any part of the world.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  506. Las Vegas wins the Stanley Cup. They have ice in Las Vegas? Is it real?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  507. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:10 am

    Isn’t that a wasted effort if Turkey can still veto Sweden’s entrance?

    I guess it does put more pressure on Turkey not to be the turd in the punch bowl.

    norcal (8b5267)

  508. @504 Don’t for get nixon committed treason with south vietnam to win the 1980 election as reagan did with Iran to win the 1980 election. Lbj played the tape to rep. sen. dirksen of clair chennault talking treason with nixon and south vietnam junta.

    asset (cdef93)

  509. @497 politics aint bean bag. If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. (HST) Are history is full of mostly men of good will hesitating. The movie 1776 is coming up in july and john adams trying to convince men of good will. As dr. samuel johnson said of the american revolution I observe those who scream the loudest about freedom and liberty are the slave holding southerners. True then true now.

    asset (cdef93)

  510. Allahpundit! I used to really enjoy reading him at HotAir. I did not know he had revealed his identity. Re: Johnson, I’m pretty sure his indictment of slavers howling about liberty was meant for all the colonies, not just the Southern ones.

    JRH (49a75d)

  511. In a rebuttal, NR’s Ed Whelan brings up the PRA and national defense materials. In defining presidential and personal records, the documents with classified markings don’t fall under either category because presidential records exclude “any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency”, and such documents cannot in any way be construed as personal records.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  512. presidential records exclude “any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency”, and such documents cannot in any way be construed as personal records.

    Paul, all I want to do is explore this without being called a bunch of names.

    It is my understanding that the official records are the originals and Trump only had access to duplicates. Is the idea here that Trump took an original that certain agencies now no longer possess?

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  513. Whelan quotes the PRA correctly, which I believe has a typo. They direct you to 552(e) when I think it should be 552(f).

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552

    (f) For purposes of this section, the term—

    (1) “agency” as defined in section 551(1) of this title includes any executive department, military department, Government corporation, Government controlled corporation, or other establishment in the executive branch of the Government (including the Executive Office of the President), or any independent regulatory agency; and
    (2) “record” and any other term used in this section in reference to information includes—

    (A) any information that would be an agency record subject to the requirements of this section when maintained by an agency in any format, including an electronic format; and
    (B) any information described under subparagraph (A) that is maintained for an agency by an entity under Government contract, for the purposes of records management.

    Now what this means and whether my notion that the agency still has their original and a President is allowed to take a copy that was sent to his office for his use, I don’t know.

    I am going to work in the garden while I think about it.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  514. Here is the entirety of the section Wehlan is relying on:

    (B) does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code; (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.

    Part (iv) limits ”extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.” This tells me that a reasonable and explainable amount of “copies” are not subject to exclusion from being a Presidential Record.

    I think the purpose of invoking 552 in the PRA was to make sure a POTUS doesn’t abscond with the original documents that may be part of a future FOIA or congressional inquiry.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  515. Ed Whelan quotes the Presidential Records Act to show the difference between government documents and Presidential papers. Documents marked classified, secret, etc., are not Presidential papers. Trump is not charged with violating the Presidential Records Act. There is no enforcement mechanism in that law. It is a law designed to define and clarify the documents.

    Trump is charged with crimes under other laws, including Section 793 of the Espionage Act entitled:

    18 U.S. Code § 793 – Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

    Subsection (b) makes it a crime to copy documents covered by this section:

    (b)Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense; or

    I am sure you realized this after more thought. To protect the originals and not copies doesn’t make sense.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  516. What I realized after more thought, DRJ, is that section 522(f) makes no distinction for “classified.”

    To follow Ed’s reasoning, that relies on 552(f), If the President asked the National Archives to send over a copy of The Constitution, he would have to return it upon departure from The Whitehouse.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  517. By the way, the Trump DOJ charged 5 individuals under Section 793:

    By the end of the Trump Administration, the Justice Department had criminally charged eight individuals for leaking information to the press. Five of them were charged under the same provision of the Espionage Act—18 U.S.C. § 793—under which Trump has now been indicted. Two of the five were charged under § 793 for unlawfully retaining, in addition to leaking information.

    The Trump administration’s record of Espionage Act prosecutions further casts doubt on the notion that Trump’s own indictment is a witch hunt. To the contrary, the allegations against Trump are more troubling than those against some of the individuals prosecuted under the Espionage Act during his administration. For example, one could very plausibly argue that Reality Winner acted in the public interest when she leaked a report on Russian interference in the 2016 election. According to former President George W. Bush’s former classification “czar” William J. Leonard, Winner’s leak—for which she was sentenced to more than five years in prison—“was the first time the vulnerability of our election system to foreign interference had been brought to the attention of many Americans, including state and local election officials.”

    DRJ (fd3827)

  518. It is not a crime to keep copies of documents that are not classified or secret. 552 does not trump the other laws that apply to classified/secret documents like Section 793.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  519. I am only exploring whether or not Wehlan properly represented 552(f), DRJ. 793 is another conversation that I may agree with you on.

    Can we stick with 552?

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  520. I can’t speak for Ed Wheland but, again, I think he quotes the Presidential Records Act to show the difference between government documents and Presidential papers. Classified/sectet documents aren’t discussed in Section 552 because they are always government records.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  521. Thanks, DRJ. I was intrigued by Paul’s statement [emphasis mine]:

    In defining presidential and personal records, the documents with classified markings don’t fall under either category because presidential records exclude “any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency”, and such documents cannot in any way be construed as personal records.

    “Classified markings” and 552(f) have no relationship.

    Back to the garden.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  522. As provided in Section 552(b) at your Cornell link:

    (b)This section does not apply to matters that are—
    (1)

    (A)specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and (B) are in fact properly classified pursuant to such Executive order;

    DRJ (fd3827)

  523. I agree with Paul. Official agency records belong to the government and cannot be part of Presidential papers. Presidents can retain their own papers but not government records.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  524. Can the President have a copy of the Constitution that is maintained by The National Archives? Of course he can.

    This is the problem with using 552 as a statute with any force over “classified” documents and records. It’s force is only over all documents and records with no regard to classification level.

    Doesn’t 552b make the case that the President has authority that is beyond the statute?

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  525. I think the questions that must be posed to Trump (say at a debate or Townhall) are:

    1. If you genuinely believed that you de-classified all of the records that you removed from the White House, why do you think it was a good idea to de-classify top secret documents pertaining to nuclear weapons, military capabilities, and strategic vulnerabilities? Why, as President, did you think these items should be allowed in the open potentially for adversaries to view?

    2. If you de-classified the 100’s of sensitive documents in your possession, why did they still retain their classification folders and markings? If a document is de-classified, shouldn’t this have implications for DoD and intelligence agencies to manage copies of those documents and address other material that might have collateral impacts? Who did you tell to manage and execute the de-classification?

    I would think every American citizen, including hard-MAGA, would want to understand how the prospective Commander-In-Chief views national security and his role in maintaining secrets.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  526. DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:07 am

    A post after my own heart.😍 As I pointed out above, Trump is being treated like everyone else.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  527. I don’t think Trump should be asked any questions. Because his answers will be nonsensical lies.

    I think he should be called he what he is: A corrupt criminal creep.

    nk (c82711)

  528. I think the questions that must be posed to Trump (say at a debate or Townhall) are…..

    Trump’s indictment makes it extremely unlikely he will attend any debates, interviews, or townhalls. Since he is incapable of not talking about himself, any responses he gives regarding classified documents would be used against him in court.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  529. Trump Needs Cleared Lawyers, Not Just Any Lawyers
    ……….
    ……….Lawyers who show up at his table (for the arraignment) could get stuck seeing this criminal prosecution through, with far less ability to quit after Trump inevitably fails to disclose other key details in the future. Once a lawyer files a notice of appearance in a criminal case, they often can’t leave until a replacement is found. If, for example, Trump neglected to mention to incoming attorneys that in addition to hoarding documents, he also was disposing of them for personal gain, those attorneys couldn’t quit until a replacement showed up or Trump stopped paying them or Trump fired them.

    ……Trump needs cleared attorneys, and he should (finally) have the lawyers with Espionage Act experience that might have minimized some of the risk he currently faces.

    When courts deal with classified documents like this one will, the judge does not need clearance. (This is a separation of powers issue; members of Congress similarly don’t need clearance.) But the lawyers do. At least one and preferably three of Trump’s lawyers will need to be cleared at the elevated levels the FBI Agents who did the search of Mar-a-Lago had to be read into to even conduct the search. As it was, Trusty was Trump’s only attorney with clearance, and he just split.

    Not all lawyers want to go through the trouble of getting clearance. Some — possibly including Chris Kise, was a registered agent for Venezuela in recent years — may not be able to get cleared at that level.

    He also needs to find lawyers who are willing to put their security clearance and their reputations at risk on a case where Trump has already been wildly misleading his attorneys.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  530. It is my understanding that the official records are the originals and Trump only had access to duplicates. Is the idea here that Trump took an original that certain agencies now no longer possess?

    That’s not my understanding at all, BuDuh.
    How is a photocopy of the nuclear capabilities of a hostile foreign power any less classified or sensitive than the original?
    I mean, are they not marked classified in the first place because of the contents of those pieces of paper?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  531. BuDuh, regarding whether a pocket Constitution is a presidential record, perhaps read the act itself. To me, the answer is “no” because a presidential record…

    …does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code; (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.

    I think we can categorize a copy of the Constitution in the Oval Office as either “stocks of publications” or “documents produced only for convenience of reference”, as if Trump would read such a Constitution in the first place.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  532. “Trump’s indictment makes it extremely unlikely he will attend any debates, interviews, or townhalls.”

    This will be the great struggle in camp Trump. He obviously stepped in it at his Townhall last month and opened up more compensation for E. Jean Carroll (plus all of the ridiculous comments that will provide fodder for Biden ads). However, I don’t know if he can help himself. It will drive him insane to be on the sidelines and not be able to attack Christie and whoever else questions his fitness. But any prospective lawyer would be guilty of malpractice if they OK’d his participation. He can’t resist the ridiculous answers and it would be horrible optics for him to duck the inevitable classified document questions. It’s too bad the debates didn’t start earlier than late August because I see them as great leverage to pull down his numbers.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  533. How is a photocopy of the nuclear capabilities of a hostile foreign power any less classified or sensitive than the original?

    I don’t think it is any less classified. My contention is that 552 is strictly to make sure originals do not get removed from the government whether they are classified or not.

    Here is “A” read along with “B” from the PRA that Wehlan quoted:

    (A) includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President’s staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; but

    (B) does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code; (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.

    If the President kept a copy of a document that was used to carry out the “constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President, he is in the clear because of “A.” If he took the original from the specific agency then he is in trouble because of “B.”

    Classified does not get a vote.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  534. Six Things Trump’s Lawyers Are Working On:

    ……….

    1. Motions to Dismiss

    ……….
    ……….Trump’s lawyers may be evaluating whether they can get the case tossed on the theory that Trump had the inherent authority to declassify and remove material upon leaving office.
    ……….
    Trump’s lawyers might also file a motion to dismiss based on alleged selective prosecution, on the theory that Trump has been singled out by prosecutors while other Democratic politicians, like 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, were given a pass for their alleged mishandling of classified information.

    ………The allegations against Trump are distinguishable on multiple grounds, including, most notably, the extensive and elaborate alleged effort on his part to obstruct the government’s investigation.

    2. Discovery

    ………
    The scope of the government’s discovery is often contested by defendants, so do not be surprised if Trump’s lawyers file motions for additional discovery beyond what is unilaterally provided by the government.

    Trump’s lawyers will want to obtain as much of this information as quickly as possible, and they will want to go over it as closely as they can in order to identify any information that they believe might be helpful to them — including exculpatory evidence as well as misstatements or inconsistent statements on the part of witnesses that the government may call at trial.
    ………

    3. Motions to Suppress or Exclude Evidence

    ……..
    ……..Trump’s lawyers are reportedly looking into the possibility of moving to suppress the evidence obtained by the government from Trump’s lawyer Evan Corcoran, who produced what appears to be key evidence concerning his dealings with Trump as they were responding to the Justice Department’s grand jury subpoena last year.
    ……..

    4. Evidence of Prosecutorial Misconduct

    Trump’s lawyers are also going to be on the lookout for any potential prosecutorial misconduct that they might be able to use to narrow or derail the case.
    ………

    5. An Alternative Narrative

    ………
    After the search of Mar-a-Lago last year, Trump and his since-departed lawyers offered an array of factual claims and arguments in the court of public opinion, but they never came together to form a cogent and persuasive account of what transpired that might actually help Trump.

    ……… (T)he best defenses have some alternative theory of the case that jurors can potentially latch onto. (“Hillary did it too,” in addition to being wrong on the facts, is not likely to get very far.)

    6. The Trial Date

    Trump’s lawyers also face a major strategic question about whether and how to drag out the schedule past the 2024 election if Trump is the Republican nominee for president.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  535. #538

    Trump’s strategy has to be —

    1. Delay the trials by doing the “poor pitiful me, I am the victim here” motions which make the thing extend into infnity

    2. Win the election.

    3. Force justice departmnt to give up case.

    Any lawyer of the usual stripe would advise Trump to plead out now, but that would mean giving up the presidential run. Not going to happen. Trump’s vision of legal counsel is Roy Cohn (aka worst person in the world). That means deny, delay, expect other side to get tired and give up.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  536. This will be the great struggle in camp Trump. He obviously stepped in it at his Townhall last month and opened up more compensation for E. Jean Carroll (plus all of the ridiculous comments that will provide fodder for Biden ads).

    That only involves money. I think Trump realizes his freedom is at stake, so maybe he can find the necessary restraint. But then again, I could be wrong (especially at his rallies). I am certain he won’t be appearing in any forum where questions will be asked. It would look pretty bad if he answers with “I can’t talk about.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  537. Doesn’t need much delaying. The average turn-around of a federal felony case is about one-a-half years.

    nk (c82711)

  538. I think Trump realizes his freedom is at stake, so maybe he can find the necessary restraint.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:18 am

    I guessed wrong.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  539. Trump now has been indicted more times than he has won elections.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  540. BuDuh,

    I think you are reading too much importance into Section 552. Whelanwas trying to educate readers about a statute designed to guide the government and former Presidents on how to separate Presidential papers from government records. My guess is it originated after former Presidents started establishing Presidential libraries, when separating Presidential and government records started.

    Further, Section 552 is in Title 5. Federal crimes are in Title 18, so there are no meaningful enforcement provisions (if any) in Section 552.

    DRJ (d0e43e)

  541. Classified does not get a vote.

    I don’t know what you’re trying to say, BuDuh. The word “classified” makes no appearance in the Espionage Act.

    Whether the record is presidential or agency, they were never Trump’s property, before or after he was president. After 1/20/2021, they become the property of the National Archives. Under this FAQ, “multiple copies, to include photocopies, of the same document can all be Presidential records, depending on how they are used and maintained in the White House.”

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  542. Fox News is back, all-in the Trump talking points.

    A Fox News chyron appeared to refer to President Biden as a “wannabe dictator” during footage of his remarks from the White House on Tuesday, the same day that former President Donald J. Trump was charged with federal crimes in a Miami courtroom.

    The onscreen text appeared briefly at the bottom of a split-screen broadcast that showed President Biden and former President Trump speaking from respective podiums, at the White House and a Trump golf club in Bedminster, N.J.

    “Wannabe dictator speaks at the White House after having his political rival arrested,” the chyron read. It did not refer to Mr. Biden by name, but the implication was clear.
    ……….
    On Tuesday’s edition of “Fox News Tonight,” host Brian Kilmeade also referred incorrectly to Mr. Trump as the “president of the United States” before he began speaking at his New Jersey club.

    A spokeswoman for Fox News said, “The chyron was taken down immediately and was addressed.” She added that Mr. Kilmeade’s comment was an unintentional mistake.
    ……….

    Uh-huh.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  543. “Classified” doesn’t get a vote in Wehlan’s reliance on a section of the PRA that relies of 552. I am not the one who put any importance on 552, Wehlan did.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  544. How are documents marked classified not official agency records?
    Even if you want to call them presidential records, what difference does it make?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  545. #543

    nk — why does it take so long to prosecute cases? Honest question.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  546. There are not enough judges, courtrooms, prosecutors, and staff. Besides the trial itself, each case requires its own amount of pre-trial procedure and preparation and it adds up, with new cases coming in every day.

    nk (d9e37b)

  547. nk — why does it take so long to prosecute cases? Honest question.

    Appalled (03f53c) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:24 am

    See here for a discussion. Also, the trial judge (if it’s Cannon) is a newbie with scant trial experience.

    ………
    Judge Cannon, 42, has been on the bench since November 2020, when Mr. Trump gave her a lifetime appointment shortly after he lost re-election. She had not previously served as any kind of judge, and because about 98 percent of federal criminal cases are resolved with plea deals, she has had only a limited opportunity to learn how to preside over a trial.

    A Bloomberg Law database lists 224 criminal cases that have been assigned to her, and a New York Times review of those cases identified four that went to trial. Each was a relatively routine matter, like a felon who was charged with illegally possessing a gun. In all, the four cases added up to 14 trial days.
    ………

    Several lawyers who have appeared before Judge Cannon in run-of-the-mill criminal cases described her in interviews as generally competent and straightforward — and also, in notable contrast to her rulings hobbling the Justice Department after the search, someone who does not otherwise have a reputation of being unusually sympathetic to defendants.

    At the same time, they said, she is demonstrably inexperienced and can bristle when her actions are questioned or unexpected issues arise. …….

    Judge Cannon’s four criminal trials identified in the review involved basic charges, including accusations of possession of a gun by a felon, assaulting a prosecutor, smuggling undocumented migrants from the Bahamas, and tax fraud. The four matters generated between two and five days of trial each.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  548. This is not the case for on the job training.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  549. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:48 am

    Her pre-judgeship experiences were also pretty limited:

    ………
    From 2009 to 2012, she was an associate at the law firm Gibson Dunn, where she worked on regulatory proceedings, not criminal matters. (She wrote (in her Senate Judiciary Committee questionnaire) that she participated in two administrative trials before agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission.)

    From 2013 to 2020, she was an assistant United States attorney in Florida. While most of that time was spent on appellate work, until 2015 she had worked in the major crimes division on ​“a wide range of federal firearms, narcotics, fraud and immigration offenses” that resulted in the conviction of 41 defendants, she wrote. Most of those cases, however, ended in plea deals: She tried just four of them to a jury verdict, she wrote.

    She was the lead counsel for two of those cases — both involving a felon charged with possessing a firearm, she wrote, and served as assistant to the main prosecutor in the other two cases, one of which she said involved possession of images of child sexual exploitation.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  550. The first post-indictment poll has come out (see the Economist/YouGov result here), and it ain’t much different from the pre-indictment numbers. Sure, give it time for the seriousness of the indictment to sink in, but this isn’t encouraging.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  551. These comments on trump and the media experts comments are like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. To avert civil war and threats to D.C.’s black population biden justice department decides trial to be held in floriduh knowing trumpsters will find an easier time getting on jury. Evidence shemvedence. How would you convince the trumpsters sitting on the jury to find their messiah guilty? All trump wants is a hung jury and maybe justice dept. too. The number one aim of government is to avert civil war not dispense justice. That is why political trials rarely work.

    asset (12ec32)

  552. @556, it might require getting to the first debate. Right now, coverage is dominated by equivocation and diversion. GOP politicians are primarily emphasizing the unfairness of Trump being prosecuted when Hillary was not and it appears that Biden might not either. Sure, there are the usual people like Romney, Hutchinson, Christie, and Murkowski speaking out and distinguishing the cases, but they don’t carry much authenticity when it comes to the base. The people who the base listen to are not saying that the GOP must move on from Trump…yet. We are still in “circle the wagons” mode and blame the deep state. I think it will require blunt debate questions where at least one person will be willing to say the king is naked. The others will look weak if they equivocate. At least that’s what I hope.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  553. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:49 am

    Whether the record is presidential or agency, they were never Trump’s property, before or after he was president. After 1/20/2021, they become the property of the National Archives.

    And anything left behind is presumably not Trump’s property.

    A president is supposed to separate personal records and government records before leaving office – they never do completely – and the National Archives typically negotiates with the former president.

    There was an interesting court case written about in an Op-ed on page A19 in the Wall Street Journal today by Michael Renakes of Judicial Watch involving former president Bill Clinton.

    It seems like the National Archives is not obligated to be constantly on the lookout for potential presidential records, and even if they know or suspect a former president is retaining what should be a presidential record, they are not legally required to attempt to retrieve it forcibly, and they can’t even be forced to do by a lawsuit.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/clintons-sock-drawer-and-trumps-indictment-documents-pra-personal-files-13986b28

    It seems like that, during the Clinton Administration, Friend of Bill Taylor Branch (they knew each other (and Hillary) from at least the McGovern campaign in Texas) had 79 tape recorded meetings with BILL Clinton, during which he sometimes spoke on the telephone with members of Congress and Cabinet members (Clinton was one for multi-tasking, as we know he did when Monica Lewinsky was him)

    In 2009, Taylor Branch revealed the existence of the Clinton tapes, and Judicial Watch wanted to get them released.

    The White House made the audiotapes. Nancy Hernreich, then director of Oval Office operations, set up the meetings between Messrs. Clinton and Branch and was involved in the logistics of the recordings. Did that make them presidential records? [government staff was involved. This was never tested in court because the judge ruled on a more preliminary basis]]

    The National Archives and Records Administration was never given the recordings. As Mr. Branch tells it, Mr. Clinton hid them in his sock drawer to keep them away from the public and took them with him when he left office.

    My organization, Judicial Watch, sent a Freedom of Information Act request to NARA for the audiotapes. The agency responded that the tapes were Mr. Clinton’s personal records and therefore not subject to the Presidential Records Act or the Freedom of Information Act.

    We sued in federal court and asked the judge to declare the audiotapes to be presidential records and, because they weren’t currently in NARA’s possession, compel the government to get them.

    In defending NARA, the Justice Department argued that NARA doesn’t have “a duty to engage in a never-ending search for potential presidential records” that weren’t provided to NARA by the president at the end of his term. Nor, the department asserted, does the Presidential Records Act require NARA to appropriate potential presidential records forcibly. The government’s position was that Congress had decided that the president and the president alone decides what is a presidential record and what isn’t. He may take with him whatever records he chooses at the end of his term.

    Judge Amy Berman Jackson agreed: “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office,” she held, “it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records.”

    [Note: The judge ruled that the president could even destroy Presidential records during his term, a privilege not accorded to Donald Trump, who has been berated for tearing them up]

    Judge Jackson added that “the PRA contains no provision obligating or even permitting the Archivist to assume control over records that the President ‘categorized’ and ‘filed separately’ as personal records. At the conclusion of the President’s term, the Archivist only ‘assumes responsibility for the Presidential records.’ . . . PRA does not confer any mandatory or even discretionary authority on the Archivist to classify records. Under the statute, this responsibility is left solely to the President.”

    I lost because Judge Jackson concluded the government’s hands were tied. Mr. Clinton took the tapes, and no one could do anything about it

    Well, at least no one could issue a writ of mandamus if they did nothing, but the judge circa 2009 ruled that they could not even challenge him!.

    This is the basis for Donald Trump claiming they are his papers.

    If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.

    Now maybe that court decision has been superceded by others.

    It

    Under this FAQ, “multiple copies, to include photocopies, of the same document can all be Presidential records, depending on how they are used and maintained in the White House.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  554. Under this FAQ, “multiple copies, to include photocopies, of the same document can all be Presidential records, depending on how they are used and maintained in the White House.”

    There are three kinds of records: Agency records, covered by the Federal Records Act; presidential records (which a judge once ruled nobody could challenge the ex-president on what they could be once he had classified them as personal) covered by the Presidential Records Act of 1978; and and personal records.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  555. How are documents marked classified not official agency records?

    I never suggested they are not official agency records. I am suggesting that since 552 doesn’t care about the classification of a record (unless a president uses an EO to override), the statute needs to be read differently than Wehlan’s interpretation. As long as each agency maintains their specific records then any copy that was transmitted to POTUS falls under (A):

    (A) includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President’s staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President;

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  556. Till now, they avoided getting a court decision about this.

    More about the Clinton precedent.

    https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/jun/12/why-the-bill-clinton-sock-drawer-case-is-not-compa

    President Bill Clinton kept audiotapes in a sock drawer and a court said it was OK, Trump said a day after being indicted on federal charges that he mishandled classified documents.

    “They also don’t mention the defining lawsuit brought against Bill Clinton,” he told a Columbus, Georgia, crowd June 10, “and it was lost by the government — the famous socks case that says he can keep his documents. They don’t mention that. These are minor details. And that’s the ruling law.”

    Or Controlling Legal Authority as Bill Clinton’s lawyers would say.

    But Politifact argues:

    The judicial ruling in the Clinton socks case does not give Trump permission to keep hundreds of classified documents after his presidency ended at his Mar-a-Lago estate.

    Those are clearly not presidential records unless they are copies.

    In any case they, are also “national defense information” And they weren’t produced by the president.

    The Presidential Records Act requires that all “official” documents be returned to the National Archives upon a president’s departure. Former President Jimmy Carter signed the act in 1978, building upon legislation by Congress to stop former President Richard Nixon from destroying tapes linked to the Watergate scandal.

    But Jackson wrote that the act described “personal records” as including documentary materials, diaries or journals that don’t relate to carrying out official duties.

    The act requires that materials produced or received by the president “to the extent practicable, be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately.” Jackson wrote that the act “assigns the Archivist no role with respect to personal records once the Presidency concludes.”

    Well, that stuff was filed separately, or else Trump could not have taken it with him. That condition is met. But they were documents that Trump had. at most, made marks upon.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  557. The precedent:

    JUDICIAL WATCH, INC., Plaintiff,
    v.
    NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION, Defendant.
    Civil Action No. 10–1834 (ABJ).
    |
    March 1, 2012.

    Earlier decision on contempt and on the need to preserve electronic records and not just hard copy printouts.

    https://casetext.com/case/armstrong-v-executive-office-of-president-2

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  558. 460:

    Miami court proceedings are over and Trump’s motorcade hs left to go the airport

    I assumed to much.

    Trump made a campaign-like stop at a Cuban rrestauanet before going to the airport.

    Also an argument made by his lawyer for Trump to be ale to talk to Nauta was that he was employed by him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  559. Aexander Buttterfield kept classified documents he had snuck out of the Nixon Wite House (to preserve them) for forty years till he told Bob Woodward about them.

    https://smdp.com/2015/12/30/book-review-bob-woodwards-the-last-of-the-presidents-men

    Other historical documents in the book include highly classified memos between Nixon and his then National Security Adviser, Henry Kissinger about the Vietnam War. In one, Nixon declares that, “10 years of bombing and the result = zilch!”

    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/lifestyle/people/sdut-alexander-butterfield-woodward-nixon-2015nov28-story.html

    He’s less comfortable with what happened after the book was published in October. The FBI called, and agents came to his condominium to collect classified documents that Butterfield, a self-confessed pack rat, took with him when he left the White House. Butterfield had loaned them to Woodward, who used several in the book.

    https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/finding-aids/alexander-p-butterfield-white-house-central-files-staff-member-and-office-files

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  560. They didn’t prosecute Alexander Butterfield. It’s hard to find out what exactly legal agreement they came to.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  561. G.O.P. Rivals See Trump’s Indictment as a Big Problem (for Them)
    ……….
    In previous eras, the indictment of a presidential candidate would have been, at a minimum, a political gift for the other candidates, if not an event that spelled the end of the indicted rival’s run. Competitors would have thrilled at the prospect of the front-runner’s spending months tied up in court, with damaging new details steadily dripping out. And they still could be Mr. Trump’s undoing: If he does not end up convicted before November 2024, his latest arrest is not likely win him converts in the general election.

    But Mr. Trump’s competitors — counterintuitively, according to the old conventional political wisdom — are actually dreading what threatens to be an endless indictment news cycle that could swallow up the summer. His rivals are desperate to get media coverage for their campaigns, but since the indictment became public last Thursday, as several advisers grumbled, the only way they can get their candidates booked on television is for them to answer questions about Mr. Trump.
    ……….
    Most of Mr. Trump’s other rivals have tied themselves in knots trying to fashion responses to the indictments that would grab media attention without alienating Republican voters who remain supportive of Mr. Trump.

    Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida came down on Mr. Trump’s side but with little enthusiasm. He subtly rebuked Mr. Trump’s conduct, raising Hillary Clinton’s mishandling of classified documents as a stand-in for Mr. Trump’s when he said he would have been “court-martialed in a New York minute” had he taken classified documents during his service in the Navy.

    But Mr. DeSantis has also used the opportunity to give Republican voters what they mostly want: He has defended Mr. Trump and attacked President Biden and his Justice Department, saying they unfairly target Republicans. ………
    ……….
    On Tuesday, (Mike Pence) told The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board, “These are very serious allegations. And I can’t defend what is alleged. But the president is entitled to his day in court, he’s entitled to bring a defense, and I want to reserve judgment until he has the opportunity to respond.”

    Mr. Pence went on to denounce the Biden administration’s Justice Department as politicized — in large part because of its treatment of Mr. Trump — and promised that as president he would clean it up.

    Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina and Ms. Haley, the former United Nations ambassador, both initially greeted the indictment with condemnation of what they called unequal justice — harsh for Republicans, lenient for Democrats — before tacking on their assessment that the accusations against Mr. Trump were grave and should be taken seriously.

    Then, on Tuesday, Ms. Haley volunteered that if elected she, too, would consider pardoning Mr. Trump.
    ……….
    “I don’t think they know what they think yet,” said (Vivek Ramaswamy, who has said he would pardon Mr. Trump) of the candidates he called the “finger-in-the-wind class.” Some candidates “tend to serve as mouthpieces for the donors who fund them and the consultants who advise them, and the donors and consultants haven’t figured out their advice yet.”
    ………
    “We’re in a situation where there are people in my own party who are blaming D.O.J.,” (Chris) Christie said on Monday night in a CNN town hall meeting. “How about blame him? He did it.”
    ……..
    (Katon Dawson, a former South Carolina Republican Party chairman who works on Nikki Haley’s campaign), said Mr. Trump’s poll numbers were likely to rise in the coming weeks, along with the sentiment that the government cannot be trusted.
    ……….

    Related:

    Republican presidential candidate U.S. Sen. Tim Scott called the federal indictment of former President Donald Trump a “serious case with serious allegations” at a June 12 campaign appearance while also condemning a justice system he said was “targeting and hunting Republicans.”

    Scott took aim at the U.S. Department of Justice and President Joe Biden, saying they specifically target GOP politicians. …….
    ……….
    Asked why South Carolina voters should choose him instead of Haley, Scott didn’t mention her in his response, instead continuing to share his own story. He spoke of growing up with a single mother living in poverty and feeling hopeless until mentors installed a belief in him that he could “rise beyond those circumstances.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  562. Sorry for the lack of blockquotes in the NYT piece in post 567.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  563. Nikki Haley’s Political Juggling Act
    ……….
    …….(Nikki) Haley’s position is proving increasingly enigmatic. Where I expected clarity and principle, I am instead met with the political equivalent of a moving target that leaves more questions than answers. Her response to Donald Trump’s second indictment exemplifies this bewildering inconsistency.
    ………
    ………Haley underlined that she felt a pardon for Trump would serve the national interest to avoid the “terrible” spectacle of a former president serving prison time. But isn’t it equally terrible for a former president to face no consequences for so brazenly endangering homeland security?

    Declaring Trump’s actions reckless and dangerous and then suggesting he should be spared the consequences is not just contradictory, it’s a disservice to voters. It sends mixed signals about what Haley truly stands for.

    What does Nikki Haley actually believe? …….
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  564. @504 Don’t for get nixon committed treason with south vietnam to win the 1980 election as reagan did with Iran to win the 1980 election. Lbj played the tape to rep. sen. dirksen of clair chennault talking treason with nixon and south vietnam junta.

    Chestnuts, roasting on an open fire….

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  565. What does Nikki Haley actually believe?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:34 pm

    Her wet finger and the wind

    norcal (8b5267)

  566. There was an interesting court case written about in an Op-ed on page A19 in the Wall Street Journal today by Michael Renakes of Judicial Watch involving former president Bill Clinton.

    Sammy, the WSJ piece by Michael Bekesha (not Renakes) was why I linked to Ed Whelan’s tweet, and I think you should read it (I couldn’t read the WSJ piece because I don’t subscribe), because Bekesha overlooked agency records, which are not presidential records and are certainly not personal records.
    Several points…
    One, the PRA states that “documentary materials produced or received by the President” shall…”be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately”.
    Two, Bill Clinton did it right. He kept tapes from his biographer separately from White House work product, putting them in a sock drawer. NARA had no control over them, therefore Judicial Watch had no legal authority to get them.
    Three, I agree that a president has discretion as to what materials can be separated as personal records, to a point, but a bad faith president could exploit that loophole. Far as I could tell, Clinton’s tapes fell under the category of “purely personal and nonpublic character”.
    Four, there is no record of Trump separating any personal records. Actually, more the opposite. He lumped everything into boxes and shipped them off to his country club.
    Five, because Trump made no separations as president, he forfeited any claims after 1/20/2021 to the records he took, IMO.
    Six, if there was one good thing for having Special Master Dearie involved, he did the separation work that Trump should have done.
    Seven, there is no mention of a negotiation in the PRA. The National Archives did so with Trump out of deference to his office.

    This is the basis for Donald Trump claiming they are his papers.

    This is false on multiple levels, Sammy. First, there is no record that Trump claimed that the documents he took are personal records, he just said had a right to take whatever he wanted, which is a lie. Two, there is no way that documents with classified markings are personal records, even if he did make such a claim.

    If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.

    How do you know that, Sammy? How do you know they were “deeply distrustful” and not “friendly”?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  567. Paul Montagu:

    Here is a free link to the WSJ op-ed.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  568. I am suggesting that since 552 doesn’t care about the classification of a record (unless a president uses an EO to override), the statute needs to be read differently than Wehlan’s interpretation.

    Why would classification make a difference, BuDuh? Whether classified or no, if they’re agency records they’re not presidential or personal, per the PRA.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  569. 5. An Alternative Narrative

    “Unbeknownst to me, my personal aide Walter Nauta secretly took many classified documents and stored them at Mar-a-Lago. I think he was going to give them to the Cubans!”

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  570. @563

    The precedent:

    JUDICIAL WATCH, INC., Plaintiff,
    v.
    NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION, Defendant.
    Civil Action No. 10–1834 (ABJ).
    |
    March 1, 2012.

    Earlier decision on contempt and on the need to preserve electronic records and not just hard copy printouts.

    https://casetext.com/case/armstrong-v-executive-office-of-president-2

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:47 pm

    I don’t think that precedent applies to the Trump case though.

    whembly (d116f3)

  571. #569

    National Review is far nicer to Haley than I would be. After all the article mentions these positions:

    1. Good heavens — how terrible of DoJ to indict Trump; BUT

    2. How reckless of Donald to have engage in this conduct; BUT

    3. I’ll be inclined to pardon him for the good of the country.

    That’s not egnigmatic, as NR would have it. That’s trying to have things both ways. No thanks.

    Appalled (a788a6)

  572. My guess is it originated after former Presidents started establishing Presidential libraries, when separating Presidential and government records started.

    Pretty sure it was a reaction to Nixon’s claims that the Tapes were not governmental records but privileged Presidential records, and similar claims about papers and effects.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  573. @572

    If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.

    How do you know that, Sammy? How do you know they were “deeply distrustful” and not “friendly”?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:44 pm

    I think it’s irrelevant legally, but I think it’s obvious that the National Archives folks had obvious “ax to grind” against Trump and were more adversarial towards him than other former Presidents.

    It feeds this narrative, that there’s an asymmetrical application of the law.

    Not sure how that argument helps Trump, but its completely irrelevant with the charges Trump faces, imo.

    whembly (d116f3)

  574. There are not enough judges, courtrooms, prosecutors, and staff. Besides the trial itself, each case requires its own amount of pre-trial procedure and preparation and it adds up, with new cases coming in every day.

    Part of that is solvable by the express lane that Trump resides in. Chris Christie — a former USA — says 6 months ought to be enough time to get things started. NOBODY wants this trial starting next April or July.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  575. Reading BuDuh’s persistent thinking on how Trump didn’t break the law makes me think of this from Chris Christie in his town hall:

    I mean, put aside taking the documents in the first place,” Christie said. “But then when you start getting asked… nicely with a letter from the archivist saying, ‘Could you please give it back,’ and you ignore it, ignore it, ignore it. Then they come with a grand jury subpoena, and then, according to the indictment, you tell your lawyers to tell them we don’t have anything even though you have dozens and dozens of boxes of material. That’s obstruction of justice if it’s true.”

    “This is vanity run amok, Anderson, run amok,” he said. “Ego run amok, and he is now going to put this country through this when we didn’t have to go through it. Everyone’s blaming the prosecutors. He did it. It’s his conduct.”

    Source: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/chris-christie-donald-trump-conduct-document-indictment-inexcusable/story?id=100020254

    Appalled (a788a6)

  576. As I see it, there’s a reason the PRA isn’t mentioned in the indictment, and it’s because it’s inapplicable. Item 4 of the indictment.

    At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.

    Even if someone successfully claims they’re presidential records, they’re still not his to possess.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  577. Where is DeSantis on this? Asking for a friend.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  578. It feeds this narrative, that there’s an asymmetrical application of the law.

    I really don’t get that, whembly, because the “asummetrical” I’m seeing was Trump’s resistance at returning documents that never belonged to him. Why did Trump have to make this such a chore?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  579. Whether classified or no, if they’re agency records they’re not presidential or personal, per the PRA.

    A lot of the language of 552 seems to designed to keep government records of any sort from disappearing. As long as the “angecy” maintains its original/copy of a record, whatever copy was issued to POTUS falls under the PRA and, according to (A) become part of the Presidential Records.

    If the original left the agency and POTUS tried to make off with it, then (B) applies.

    As long as the agency can still produce their record at any point, whatever duplicate that is part of The Presidential Records is fully allowed to be there as well.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  580. Reading BuDuh’s persistent thinking on how Trump didn’t break the law makes me think of this from Chris Christie in his town hall

    This is a complete misrepresentation by its simplistic summarizing, Appalled. What exactly do you think I am arguing?

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  581. So, Trump is running against a supposed “Deep State” that viciously oppresses the People’s Freedom, and then he’s indicted for things that others are not indicted over.

    That is, at least, the political argument he is making. Will it sell?

    If it does, maybe there’s some truth in it. After all, it means that people are ignoring things like Trump’s character, his sleaze, his many many lies, and his incredibly self-centered ego. Why would people choose to believe something from Donald Trump? Maybe it’s something they already are thinking.

    Sometimes even the Devil can speak truth. Is it impossible to believe that there are serious and fundamental things wrong with the federal government?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  582. @583

    Where is DeSantis on this? Asking for a friend.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:04 pm

    No Republican is going to adopt the Liz Cheney playbook to persuade GOP voters to move on from Trump, and the #NeverTrumps & media is going to scream its butthurt over that fact.

    My guess, is that the Not-Trump candidates will craft a response that will highlight the good things Trump has done in the past, but also highlight the legal realities that Trump is facing now/future, and that he’s not the best person for the job in the primaries.

    whembly (d116f3)

  583. Trump’s vision of legal counsel is Roy Cohn (aka worst person in the world). That means deny, delay, expect other side to get tired and give up.

    Appalled (03f53c) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:14 am

    Don’t forget to accuse the accusers of every crime you’ve committed or intend to commit. ABP. Always Be Projecting.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  584. @584

    It feeds this narrative, that there’s an asymmetrical application of the law.

    I really don’t get that, whembly, because the “asummetrical” I’m seeing was Trump’s resistance at returning documents that never belonged to him. Why did Trump have to make this such a chore?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:05 pm

    I’m talking about the left v. right narrative, that isn’t solely a Trump thing.

    Yes, the Trump Russian Collusion hoax and all that does add to this narrative.

    But, I’m talking about how, in today’s climate, there’s an appearance of asymmetrical application of justice perpetuated by the Biden Administration.

    Anywhere from the aggressive prosecution of J6’ers, to FBI investigating parents, to overall lack of prosecution of the summer of riots, to prosecutions of pro-lifers, etc…

    This is the narrative, that the left/Democrats are willing to political prosecute their ideological opponent.

    I hate it.

    Inevitably, if a GOP wins the Presidency, there’s going to be awful pressure to “tit” for that “tat”, and to me, I don’t see how that ends.

    whembly (d116f3)

  585. BuDuh,

    So what is the point of your string of posts regarding presidential records?

    Appalled (5698c2)

  586. I’ve said this since 2015:

    The government needs serious reform. But Donald Trump is not the person to do it. He hasn’t the skill, the knowledge, the temperament, the wit, or the inclination to obtain such. All he can do is wreck.

    OTOH, Joe Biden (and Hillary Clinton before him) oppose any reform; they like things just as they are.

    Who then? The GOP used to have some folks with ideas, knowledge of government, history and of the current structural problems. Where are they now? Ryan is off in some think tank, Gingrich is entering his dotage, Romney is getting tired, McConnell has his hands full with baby Senators. Maybe Christie. Maybe some Senators. But the field is narrowing as we value partisanship over statecraft.

    But it is CERTAINLY not Donald Trump.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  587. @590:

    Let’s just talk about gerrymanders. How many Democrat state gerrymanders has DoJ objected to?

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  588. I would prefer you told me how you already concluded what my point is, Appalled.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  589. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:44 pm

    Four, there is no record of Trump separating any personal records. Actually, more the opposite. He lumped everything into boxes and shipped them off to his country club.

    All these boxes must have come from the residence area. e kept them away from where anyone else could look at them. That was the separation.

    Seven, there is no mention of a negotiation in the PRA.

    SF> This is the basis for Donald Trump claiming they are his papers.

    This is false on multiple levels, Sammy. First, there is no record that Trump claimed that the documents he took are personal records, he just said had a right to take whatever he wanted, which is a lie.

    I am speaking about what Trump is claiming now I don;’ know when or if he got some legal advice that he could take anything in the residence area but he didn’t argue this point with the National Archives

    Two, there is no way that documents with classified markings are personal records, even if he did make such a claim.

    If they are copies for his personal use. (although they are supposed to be distinguished as copies)

    SF: If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.

    How do you know that, Sammy?

    Because that’s what the 2012 decision by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, seems to indicate when she says that the National Archives has no legal obligation to go a hunt for presidential records and even no right to dispute what a president says (Trump had no knowledge of this decison back when he was hiding documents)

    As another court in this district has observed, “[t]he PRA incorporates an assumption made by Congress (in 1978) that
    subsequent Presidents and Vice Presidents would comply with the Act in good faith, and therefore Congress limited the scope of
    judicial review and provided little oversight authority for the President and Vice President’s document preservation decisions.”
    *292 CREW v. Cheney, 593 F.Supp.2d 194, 198 (D.D.C.2009). Indeed, the PRA permits the President to dispose of any
    Presidential records that “no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value” after notifying the
    Archivist of the United States and designated members of Congress of the proposed disposal. 44 U.S.C. § 2203(c), (d).
    The PRA provides the Archivist with authority to invoke the same enforcement mechanism found in another statute, the Federal
    Records Act (“FRA”). The PRA provides:

    When the Archivist considers it to be in the public interest, he may
    he may exercise, with respect to papers, documents, or other historical materials deposited under this section, or otherwise, in a Presidential
    archival depository, all the functions and responsibilities otherwise vested in him pertaining to Federal records or other documentary materials in his custody or under his control.

    How do you know they were “deeply distrustful” and not “friendly”?

    I think they were. TYhere has even been leaked concern (not on the part of the archivists but in general) that maybe he might turn things over toa foreign power etc They may also have been trying to protect themselves – as soon as theysaw skme documents Trump turned over were classified they made acriminal referral and gave everything to the FBI.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  590. Plaintiff’s entire APA claim is predicated on the notion that the Archivist of the United States has a statutory duty to make his own classification decision and “to assume custody and control” of all Presidential records. There are a number of flaws with this argument. To begin with, the plain language of section 2203(f) of the PRA does not say what plaintiff claims it does—that the Archivist must assume custody and control of all materials that fall within the definition of Presidential records. Tr. at 29:23–30:2. Rather, it states: “the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records of that President.” 44 U.S.C. § 2203(f)(1) (emphasis added). 7 The Court construes this language as requiring the Archivist to take responsibility for records that were designated as Presidential records during the President’s term. Even plaintiff tentatively agreed that the obligation to assume custody and control arises after a determination has been made that the documents are Presidential records. Tr. at 30:3–6. If certain records are not designated as Presidential records, the Archivist has no statutory obligation to take any action at all, and there is nothing to compel under the APA.

    In order to accept plaintiff’s theory that section 2203(f)(1) of the PRA creates a mandatory duty for the Archivist to assume
    custody and control of what he or she considers to be Presidential records regardless of how the President designated the documents, the Court would be required to ignore the rest of the PRA’s statutory scheme. This it cannot do. See Chemehuevi Tribe of Indians v. Fed. Power Comm’n, 420 U.S. 395, 403, 95 S.Ct. 1066, 43 L.Ed.2d 279 (1975) (stating that a statutory provision must be “read together with the rest of the Act”).

    Section 2203(a) of the PRA directs the President, not the Archivist

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  591. Seven, there is no mention of a negotiation in the PRA.

    There is in news stories.

    It is all unofficial practice. It doesn’t come from the PRA

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  592. @569, Haley remains talking to the base….and soft-MAGA might be ok with a Trump conviction, but would not want him to serve time. That would take him off the stage and end his political career. The party could move on. Hard-MAGA obviously wants full acquittal. NeverTrump wants conviction plus tar and feathering.

    Personally, I might be ok with commutation versus pardon. Commutation reduces the penalty, but does not exonerate the person. Maybe it’s a difference without a big distinction, but losing is the key first step. Maybe the best response is “we’ll see” or possibly even better “we’ll see based on how contrite he acts”

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  593. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:00 pm

    Even if someone successfully claims they’re presidential records, they’re still not his to possess.

    They need to be personal records.

    Bt there is no procedure for adjudicating thst.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  594. exceot that anything left in the WH is not personal

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  595. All these boxes must have come from the residence area.

    Did they? What’s your cite for that?
    Why were so many presidential records in those boxes? Only a fraction were returned to Trump.
    Also, if they were all personal records because he purportedly stashed them in his personal residence, why did he return 15 boxes in January 2022?

    If they are copies for his personal use.

    Copies of classified documents? Even if they’re photocopies, Sammy, they’re still classified, and Trump is not authorized to keep them after 1/20/2021. I’ve never heard of a document morphing from classified to declassified after getting run through a photocopier.

    Also, I don’t understand how you can divine NARA’s feelings in 2021 from a 2012 court decision.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  596. Bt there is no procedure for adjudicating thst.

    Please tell me how documents with classified markings could be construed as personal records. I doubt even Judge Cannon would touch that.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  597. Maybe the best response is “we’ll see” or possibly even better “we’ll see based on how contrite he acts”

    The operative word there is “acts.” If he’s convicted I give it a small but non-zero chance he’ll act contrite. Will the act be convincing? Vanishingly small chance. Will he genuinely be contrite? Zero chance. As in -460 degrees Fahrenheit zero.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  598. Where is DeSantis on this? Asking for a friend.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:04 pm

    Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida came down on Mr. Trump’s side but with little enthusiasm. He subtly rebuked Mr. Trump’s conduct, raising Hillary Clinton’s mishandling of classified documents as a stand-in for Mr. Trump’s when he said he would have been “court-martialed in a New York minute” had he taken classified documents during his service in the Navy.

    But Mr. DeSantis has also used the opportunity to give Republican voters what they mostly want: He has defended Mr. Trump and attacked President Biden and his Justice Department, saying they unfairly target Republicans. ………

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  599. NOBODY wants this trial starting next April or July.

    Except Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  600. RIP book editor Robert Gottlieb (92). Edited books written by John Le Carre, Robert Caro, and many other Pulitzer and Nobel Prize-winning authors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  601. Please tell me how documents with classified markings could be construed as personal records.

    I’ll take a stab at it. I think “classified markings” has a built in semantical conundrum. Even a declassified document has classified markings. For example I grabbed something at random from the FBI Vault

    https://vault.fbi.gov/Majestic%2012/Majestic%2012%20Part%201%20of%201/view

    Hopefully the link works, but if it doesn’t you can grab any random document and see the same phenomenon; declassified documents have classified markings.

    I think that makes it possible for a president to completely and totally declassify something, make a copy of it as an ordinary citizen would through the FBI Vault, and include that copy of a declassified document, containing classified markings, amongst his personal papers. Like a pocket Constitution.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  602. I meant to say “next to his pocket Constitution. 🙂

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  603. Another Lilliputian enters the race.

    (Frances Suarez, mayor of Miami), who has previously been critical of Trump, told Fox News on Sunday that the news of the former president’s first federal indictment felt “un-American” and “wrong at some level.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  604. GOP effort to censure Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff fails in key vote
    ……….
    The House voted Wednesday on a motion to table – or kill – the resolution, a motion put forward by House Democrats. Enough Republicans crossed the aisle in support for the effort to succeed in blocking the censure. The vote was 225 to 196 with 20 Republicans voting with Democrats to table the resolution.

    The censure resolution, sponsored by GOP Rep. Anna Paulina Luna of Florida, broadly criticizes Schiff with a focus on his role in investigations of the former president.
    ………
    The resolution claims that Schiff “exploited his positions on HPSCI (House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence) to encourage and excuse abusive intelligence investigations of Americans for political purposes.”

    It goes on to accuse him of having “used his position and access to sensitive information to instigate a fraudulently based investigation, which he then used to amass political gain and fundraising dollars.”
    ……….
    The legislative text also states that if an Ethics Committee investigation were to determine that Schiff “lied, made misrepresentations and abused sensitive information,” he should be fined $16 million.
    ………
    Ahead of the vote, GOP Kentucky Rep. Thomas Massie said he would vote against the censure resolution, aligning with Democrats.

    “Adam Schiff acted unethically but if a resolution to fine him $16 million comes to the floor, I will vote to table it. (vote against it) In fact, I’m still litigating a federal lawsuit against Pelosi over a salary reduction she imposed on me for my refusal to wear a mask,” Massie tweeted.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  605. BuDuh,

    I can’t imagine that you (or your source) dug deeply into the law regarding Presidential records for the joy of reading the US Code Annotated. You wanted to see if there was a get out of jail free card for Mr Trump buried in the statute.

    If that conclusion is wrong, feel free to say why you think this is a valid line of inquiry for other reasons.

    Appalled (ed1c9a)

  606. That conclusion is wrong. I don’t really care if Trump goes to jail. If he broke the law then F him.

    I just have an issue with misrepresenting statutes to get him there.(equally misrepresentation to exonerate him.)

    IMO, Whelan starts off on one path and then does a triple lindy to get to another path, but hands out a trail map that excludes the obstacle he dove over.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  607. Trump rejected lawyers’ efforts to avoid classified documents indictment

    One of Donald Trump’s new attorneys proposed an idea in the fall of 2022: The former president’s team could try to arrange a settlement with the Justice Department.

    The attorney, Christopher Kise, wanted to quietly approach Justice to see if he could negotiate a settlement that would preclude charges, hoping Attorney General Merrick Garland and the department would want an exit ramp to avoid prosecuting a former president. Kise would hopefully “take the temperature down,” he told others, by promising a professional approach and the return of all documents.

    But Trump was not interested after listening to other lawyers who urged a more pugilistic approach, so Kise never approached prosecutors, three people briefed on the matter said. A special counsel was appointed months later.
    ……….
    Interviews with seven Trump advisers with knowledge of the probe indicate he misled his own advisers, telling them the boxes contained only newspaper clippings and clothes. He repeatedly refused to give the documents back, even when some of his longest-serving advisers warned of peril and some flew to Mar-a-Lago to beg him to return them.
    ………
    Trump time and again rejected the advice from lawyers and advisers who urged him to cooperate and instead took the advice of Tom Fitton, the head of the conservative group Judicial Watch, and a range of others who told him he could legally keep the documents and should fight the Justice Department, advisers said. Trump would often cite Fitton to others, and Fitton told some of Trump’s lawyers that Trump could keep the documents, even as they disagreed, the advisers said.
    ……….
    Several other Trump advisers blamed Fitton for convincing Trump that he could keep the documents and repeatedly mentioning the “Clinton socks case” — a reference to tapes Bill Clinton stored in his sock drawer of his secret interviews with historian Taylor Branch that served as the basis of Branch’s 2009 book documenting the Clinton presidency.

    Judicial Watch lost a lawsuit in 2012 that demanded the audio recordings be designated as presidential records and that the National Archives take custody of the recordings. A court opinion issued at the time stated that there was no legal mechanism for the Archives to force Clinton to turn over the recordings.
    ………..
    Trump’s chances to avoid charges began in early 2021, according to current and former advisers. After Gary Stern, counsel at the National Archives, asked Trump’s team for the return of documents, some of his lawyers and advisers began advising him to return them. National Archives officials were privately baffled at what they viewed as inexplicably recalcitrant behavior and kept asking for answers to no avail.
    ………
    After months of talking to Trump and his staff, (Alex Cannon, then a Trump attorney) — referred to in the indictment as a “Trump Representative” — told Trump that the National Archives was threatening to go to Congress or to the Department of Justice if he did not return the documents, the people said.
    ……….
    ……… (Trump) eventually returned 15 boxes of materials to the National Archives, in January 2022.
    ………
    Trump had kept at least 64 boxes of documents, according to the indictment. Trump never believed that his home would be searched and thought that he would be able to keep the documents, two advisers said.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  608. I think it’s obvious that the National Archives folks had obvious “ax to grind” against Trump and were more adversarial towards him than other former Presidents.

    I think they bent over backwards to accommodate Trump.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  609. As long as the “angecy” maintains its original/copy of a record, whatever copy was issued to POTUS falls under the PRA and, according to (A) become part of the Presidential Records.

    I think Whelan raised Section 552 to help people understand the process and issues in differentiating Presiddntual papers and government records.

    I think you are completely wrong that Section 552 says copies of government records become Presidential papers simply because they are copies.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  610. I am saying that 552 doesn’t prevent classified copies from becoming Presidential Records.

    Paul wrote:

    In defining presidential and personal records, the documents with classified markings don’t fall under either category because presidential records exclude “any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency”, and such documents cannot in any way be construed as personal records.

    This does not appear to be correct.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  611. 614:

    I think it’s obvious that the National Archives folks had obvious “ax to grind” against Trump and were more adversarial towards him than other former Presidents.

    DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:45 pm

    I think they bent over backwards to accommodate Trump.

    Both statements could be true.

    Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a)

  612. BuDuh,

    Whelan was responding to a WSJ opinion article from a Judicial Watch writer who apparently (wrongly) believes Section 552 protects Trump from criminal liability. So Whelan was not only educating JW about Title 5, Section 552 (the PRA) but also about Trump’s actual charges under the Espionage Act.

    Whelan was pointing out that Section 552 has no bearing on classified documents like the ones Trump is charged with possessing/hiding/refusing to surrender. I think after working through it yourself, you agree.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  613. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:55 pm

    I’ve never heard of a document morphing from classified to declassified after getting run through a photocopier.

    No, it morphs from an agency record to some other kind of record. A Presidential record, even if he scribbles some comment on it, but the 2012 decision says nobody
    dy can challenge a president if he says it is personal. Or at least NARA can’t. DOJ maybe could.

    Still classified and national defense informmation, though

    Also, I don’t understand how you can divine NARA’s feelings in 2021 from a 2012 court decision

    I don’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a)

  614. I don’t have access to the WSJ article. Only his quotes. From there it seemed he was talking only about the PRA and he used 552 to bolster his position.

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  615. The boxes themselves were Trump’s personal property, for sure. Noobody is suggesting Trump packed away an office library.

    Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a)

  616. “Mine!” bawled Little Donnie, clutching Daddy’s wallet with chocolate-smeared fingers. “Mine!”

    nk (e81a9a)

  617. I am saying that 552 doesn’t prevent classified copies from becoming Presidential Records.

    If you are saying that 552 doesn’t apply to classified Records, then I agree. But I don’t know if any way that classified documents can ever be anything other then government records. Ever.

    There are ways to declassify classified records, but they would still be government records.

    The PRA Section 552 addresses what constitutes Presidential papers. Basically they are generated by the President and his office — diaries, notes, etc. They would not include Records generated by other government agencies and provided to the President. Even if he made a copy.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  618. Taking my daughter on a driving lesson. Back to this later. 👍

    BuDuh (e130d1)

  619. I think it’s irrelevant legally, but I think it’s obvious that the National Archives folks had obvious “ax to grind” against Trump and were more adversarial towards him than other former Presidents.

    LOL! The Archives has been begging Trump to comply with the law for the past two years:

    In May 2021, the National Archives began asking Trump and his staff to return all missing presidential records, according to email communications between the archives and Trump’s lawyers that were later made public.

    Two of Trump’s aides returned 15 boxes of records to the National Archives eight months later, in January 2022. The Archives soon determined that 14 of the boxes contained classified documents and referred their discovery to the Justice Department, the indictment says.

    The FBI opened a criminal investigation in March 2022, and a grand jury issued a subpoena in May 2022 that required Trump to return all remaining classified documents in his possession, according to prosecutors.
    ………
    The FBI obtained a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, and in August (2022) it found 11 more sets of documents on the property…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  620. Where Judicial Watch’s Defense of Trump Goes Wrong
    ………..
    Trump’s case is about agency records regarding the national defense — mainly, classified intelligence reporting generated by U.S. spy agencies. The PRA, by contrast, addresses documents and other records generated by and for the president in the carrying out of his duties.

    Significantly, the PRA explicitly excludes agency records from the definition of “presidential records.” Under Section 2201(2)(B) the term presidential records “does not include any documentary materials that are . . . official records of an agency.” As if the term agency were not clear enough, the PRA incorporates the definition set forth in Section 552 of Title 5, U.S. Code. (That definition has been moved. In 1978, when the PRA was enacted, it was in Section 552(e); it is now in Section 552(f).) That provision broadly instructs that an agency is

    any executive department, military department, Government corporation, Government controlled corporation, or other establishment in the executive branch of the Government (including the Executive Office of the President), or any independent regulatory agency.

    Further, the provision broadly defines an agency record to include any information the agency or its contractors maintain in connection with the agency’s operations. Patently, intelligence reports compiled by the Defense Intelligence Agency, CIA, NSA, FBI, and other U.S. national-security agencies are agency records. ………
    ………..
    The remorseless fact that agency records are not presidential records harpoons today’s attempt by Michael Bekesha in the Wall Street Journal to stake out a PRA defense of Trump based on an inapposite case, Judicial Watch v. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). As I’ve pointed out……..Trump and his defenders have stitched this lower-court ruling to the PRA as a purported defense. Amusingly, Bekesha proclaims that he is well positioned to defend Trump because he is “the lawyer who lost the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ case” — meaning he is now arguing against the position he argued in court.

    To repeat, that case did not involve agency records — much less classified reporting by the government’s intelligence agencies. It involved nonclassified tape recordings that President Clinton made with historian Taylor Branch in anticipation of compiling a history of his presidency………
    ……….
    ……….(District Judge Amy Berman Jackson ) ruled that NARA’s hands were tied, which was the only question before her. She did not and could not credibly have said that no arm of the federal government was authorized to take action to retrieve the tapes……..

    Judicial Watch was thus reduced to nudging NARA to do its job by trying to retrieve the tapes. But Jackson, an Obama appointee, concluded that, as between NARA and Clinton, it was the president, during his presidency, who got to decide whether a record covered by the PRA was either a presidential record that had to be archived, or a personal record that the president could keep for himself.

    ……… (T)he only documents a president is lawfully permitted to keep without archiving are what the PRA defines as personal records. These are such items as diaries or journals — not agency intelligence reports.

    In any event, Judge Jackson’s ruling is unavailing for Trump because the agency reports of national-defense information that he is being prosecuted over are expressly excluded from PRA coverage………
    ………
    ………Berman found that the PRA (a) did not enable NARA to second-guess Clinton’s determination that the tapes were personal records because, implicitly, he had made that decision during his presidency; and (b) did not empower NARA to retrieve the documents from Clinton. On the latter, it’s true that the PRA has no enforcement provisions (we’ll come back to that in a second); on the former, even if NARA lacked its own authority, it could have referred the matter to Congress or the Justice Department to take any action they deemed appropriate. ……..
    ………
    At the time (when Mar-A-Lago was searched), I was among the commentators who pointed out that the Justice Department’s inclusion of Section 2071 (which prohibits removing and concealing government documents or files) was controversial. It was thrown into the mix because, for 18 months, NARA had been trying to force Trump to give back all of the government records in his possession……..
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  621. This WA Post piece tells the tale of legal counsel advising Trump to cooperate with NARA and DOJ, but practically every single time he took the counsel of his more combative advisors, which is why we’re at where we’re at. This part astounded me…

    Trump time and again rejected the advice from lawyers and advisers who urged him to cooperate and instead took the advice of Tom Fitton, the head of the conservative group Judicial Watch, and a range of others who told him he could legally keep the documents and should fight the Justice Department, advisers said. Trump would often cite Fitton to others, and Fitton told some of Trump’s lawyers that Trump could keep the documents, even as they disagreed, the advisers said.

    In an interview Wednesday, Fitton said he dined with Trump on Monday night at his club, eating filet mignon with the former president one day before his first court appearance on the document charges. “I saw him last night; he’s in a good mood. He’s serious and ready to fight under the law.”

    Fitton, who appeared before the grand jury and was questioned about his role in both the Mar-a-Lago documents case and the investigation into the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol, acknowledged he gave the advice to Trump but declined to discuss the details of their conversations. He added that he read the indictment and did not believe it laid out illegal or obstructive conduct. Multiple witnesses said they were asked about Fitton in front of a grand jury and the role he played in Trump’s decisions.

    “I think what is lacking is the lawyers saying, ‘I took this to be obstruction,’” said Fitton. “Where is the conspiracy? I don’t understand any of it. I think this is a trap. They had no business asking for the records … and they’ve manufactured an obstruction charge out of that. There are core constitutional issues that the indictment avoids, and the obstruction charge seems weak to me.”

    Fitton is as hyperpartisan as they come, and he’s not even a lawyer (BA from GWU), yet that was the guy Trump heeded.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  622. “Mine!” bawled Little Donnie, clutching Daddy’s wallet with chocolate-smeared fingers. “Mine!”

    nk (e81a9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:08 pm

    Bwahahaha!

    Love it.

    norcal (8b5267)

  623. That’s where Cannon will put in the fix, if she puts in the fix. In the jury instructions. By giving the jurors who want a reasonable doubt, a reasonable doubt that Trump was entitled to take and hold on to the documents.

    nk (e81a9a)

  624. Or maybe Mr. Former President Donald Trump could cite the Paperwork Reduction Act. You know, relieving the burden on the National Archives. Like the groups of community activists who occasionally band together and go from store to store simplifying their inventories.

    nk (e81a9a)

  625. Frances Suarez

    He’s running for name recognition so he can succeed DeSantis as governor.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  626. Personally, I think that Cannon will be squeaky clean on this. She really can’t afford another appellate slapdown. Effing this up would get her impeached the moment there’s 218 Democrats in the House.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  627. There’s talk they will move the case to the Miami courthouse for logistics reasons. I think that would mean another judge gets it.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  628. Personally, I think that Cannon will be squeaky clean on this. She really can’t afford another appellate slapdown. Effing this up would get her impeached the moment there’s 218 Democrats in the House.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:32 pm

    I’m not predicting one way or the other, but of course she can afford another slapdown. She sits for life. She’s already shown she’s willing to risk embarrassment to help her benefactor, and embarrassment is probably all she’ll risk by doing it again. Federal District Court judges have incredible power to influence the trials over which they preside, without violating any rules, much less the law. Calendar, jury selection, discovery orders, admissibility of evidence, jury instructions…. Each can tip the scale a little or a lot. Some are reviewable, but those typically require blatant legal error or abuse of discretion to be overturned. There are plenty of ways to put a thumb on the scale without abusing discretion or being a total dumb@ss. Bottom line, we generally impeach only for corruption or criminality, so she’s not getting impeached. Even if she does, as Trump taught us twice, impeachment doesn’t mean squat without 16 Republican Senators willing to convict. Unless she shoots up the courtroom, that ain’t gonna happen.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  629. Bu Duh, did you make it back safe and sound….my lot in life also with my daughter on a learners permit

    urbanleftbehind (48866c)

  630. Beldar gave me a good dressing down on Judge Cannon at The Dispatch regard abuse of discretion, so I’m taking back the “unethical” aspect, and he was more deferential to the judge. However, my own suspicions about her bias remain, only because she leaned toward Trump’s side practically every single time and she was smacked for it by the 11th Circuit.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  631. https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2023/06/14/car-break-in-victim-you-hear-about-how-bad-san-francisco-is-n558088

    Shelby Steele is an author and filmmaker who works at Stanford’s Hoover Institution. Today, his son Eli Steele, who is also a filmmaker, posted a thread on Twitter about his most recent experience in San Francisco.

    He wrote: “You hear about how bad San Francisco is. I was filming a shot of my father , Shelby Steele, and in the ten minutes we were gone our SUV was broken into and nearly $15k of cameras stolen. Called 911 & they hung up twice.”

    More from the leftist utopia of California. Keep defunding the police and hamstringing them so the criminals have free reign. Keep doubling down on leftism.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  632. *rein

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  633. https://www.dailywire.com/news/california-state-senator-warns-parents-to-flee-state-after-gender-affirmation-bill-advances

    Senator Scott Wilk (R-Antelope Valley) sounded the alarm during a hearing late Tuesday night when the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 8-1 to advance Assembly Bill 957, which rewrites much of the state’s family law and classifies “a parent’s affirmation of the child’s gender identity as part of the health, safety, and welfare of the child.”
    “In the past, when we’ve had these discussions, and I’ve seen parental rights atrophy, I’ve encouraged people to keep fighting,” Wilk said. “I’ve changed my mind on that — if you love your children, you need to flee California. You need to flee.”

    The bill amends Section 3011 of the Family Code, which deals with child custody disputes, and requires that a court determining the “best interests” of the child must consider the affirmation of a so-called transgender identity. If a parent were to deny the child’s “gender identity,” it would be a violation of the child’s health, safety, and welfare — equivalent to child abuse.

    Because the bill changes the definition of what constitutes the “health, safety, and welfare” of a child, any organization interacting with children — including schools, churches, and hospitals — would be required to affirm gender transitions in minors . . .

    . . . Wilk, who was born and raised in California and served in the state legislature for 11 years, said he plans to move after he finishes his term.

    “I love this state,” Wilk said. “I’m not going to stay in this state because it’s just too oppressive. I believe in freedom, and so I’m going to move to America when I leave the legislature.”

    The state of California wants to destroy your children.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  634. BuDuh #612:

    As Andrew McCarthy, no Justice Deprtment shill, makes clear in the article Rip excerpted in #626, the attempt to use the Presidential Records Act to excuse Trump’s conduct with respect to classified information that he squirreled away is not terribly serious. There is a specific exemption in the law for the type of records at issue.

    If an attorney for Trump tried this argument in Court — I wouldn’t blame them. Hey, it might work and they are supposed to zealously represent their client. However, when an advocacy group makes this argument in the newspaper and disregards the clear exception in the law, it’s not unreasonable to feel that they are mostly trying to curry favor with Trump and his devoted followers. It’s hard to take that kind of argument seriously.

    Since 2015, too much of the Right’s time has been spent trying to gloss over, explain, cover up, make somehow noble Trump’s actions. If you sense a lack of patience in some of us with this latest attempt, you might just be right.

    Appalled (629706)

  635. Tom Fitton’s new legal theory: The documents that Trump stole out of the White House are all “presumptively personal”, regardless of classification markings.
    All I can say is that Trump should continue to ignore legal counsel and Listen To Tom, the real legal scholar. It’ll all work out.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  636. Yeah, hitching onto the PRA is a losing gambit I would think.

    However, there’s a big, issue that I haven’t seen fully fleshed out.

    A lot of articles, pundits seems to make the point that POTUS, must make some assertive declaration that *waves hands* this is declassified and that there must be a paper trail.

    I’ve seen articles that the classification “office” at the Whitehouse argued that POTUS’ action can declassify docs, even without verbal assertion. (ie, handing a classified folder/doc to reporters).

    I’ve seen arguments made that any documents removed from Trump Whitehouse is presumptuously declassified, but any removal wouldn’t have had happened without a POTUS’ approval (ie, move during transition before incoming POTUS).

    Courts has already stated that POTUS has near plenary declassification authority (I say near, because “nukes” info there are specific statutory laws governing that). But, courts seems to loathed to fully describe what that means and set rulings as narrow as possible to that specific act (ie, the Clinton tapes).

    It doesn’t seem like Congress is interested in this sphere, and wondering now, the courts would have to assert what “plenary” means in this context.

    All of this doesn’t excuse Trump’s obstruction behavior though. He should be convicted on that basis alone imo.

    whembly (d116f3)

  637. It’s a perfect legal theory. A beautiful legal theory.

    Fitton has nothing to lose. He’s telling Trump what he wants to hear, and he’s telling Trump’s supporters, most of who don’t even know the words to The Star Spangled Banner, what they want to hear.

    It’s a problem only for those who try to wade through the sewage instead of shying away from the first whiff of the stench.

    nk (426ee2)

  638. Keep defunding the police and hamstringing them so the criminals have free reign.

    * rein

    Works either way.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  639. I’ve seen articles that the classification “office” at the Whitehouse argued that POTUS’ action can declassify docs, even without verbal assertion. (ie, handing a classified folder/doc to reporters).

    I’ve seen arguments made that any documents removed from Trump Whitehouse is presumptuously declassified, but any removal wouldn’t have had happened without a POTUS’ approval (ie, move during transition before incoming POTUS).

    Sources?

    In contrast, see New York Times v. Central Intelligence Agency, No. 18-2112 (2d Cir. 2020) where an appeals court ruled a tweet by President Trump and statements to the Wall Street Journal did not declassify a classified program involving aid to Syrian rebels.

    The Times next contends that the President’s tweet and statements to the Wall Street Journal interviewer declassified the fact that the program existed, thus precluding the CIA from invoking FOIA Exemptions 1 and 3. The Times argues that this “conclusion flows inexorably from the President’s supreme authority in matters of classification.” This novel argument is without merit. It is true that the President has broad authority to classify and declassify, derived from the President’s dual role “as head of the Executive Branch and as Commander in Chief” of the armed forces. The “authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security . . . flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.”
    ……..
    Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures. Moreover, courts cannot “simply assume, over the well-documented and specific affidavits of the CIA to the contrary,” that disclosure is required simply because the information has already been made public. (Antoinette B. Shiner’s, an Information Review Officer for the agency) affidavits, …….. expressly stated that no declassification procedures had been followed with respect to any documents pertaining to the alleged covert program. Moreover, the Times cites no authority that stands for the proposition that the President can inadvertently declassify information and we are aware of none. Because declassification, even by the President, must follow established procedures, that argument fails.

    Footnotes omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  640. RIP two-time Oscar winning actress Glenda Jackson (87).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  641. BuDuh,

    Presidential Papers of former or soon-to-be-former Presidents sometimes need to be declassified simply because they discuss highly classified information and policies. There is a process for declassification. It involves a page-by-page analysis at multiple agencies. If a former President wants to keep a copy of papers marked as classified, he would have to deal with the same legal/security declassification process.

    Trump is too impatient to deal with legal or security process, which is why nk’s comment portraying Trump as a whining toddler is so perfect. He wants what he wants.

    DRJ (ce5e13)

  642. The story from the folks alleging that Joe Biden received a bribe (or bribes) while VP is unraveling. First, there’s Ron Johnson…

    Question: Do you think the audio tapes exist? And if yes, how to obtain them?
    Johnson: We don’t know. And Senator Grassley has never said they exist.

    This is the same Ron Johnson who used a Russian agent (Derkach) as a source in one of his “investigations”.

    Next, there’s Rudy

    Uh oh! Rudy Giuliani says the GOP witness who had all the information regarding their fake Biden bribery scheme has died.

    Until there’s actual evidence that Joe accepted a bribe from a foreign entity while in office, I’ll assume this story is full of sh-t.
    All allegation, zero evidence.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  643. Note: Don’t confuse the declassification of Presidential papers and the declassification of government (agency) records. There is a government record National Declassification Center administered by NARA. NARA also works directly with Presidents to facilitate the identification and declassification of Presidential papers.

    DRJ (ce5e13)

  644. @646

    I’ve seen articles that the classification “office” at the Whitehouse argued that POTUS’ action can declassify docs, even without verbal assertion. (ie, handing a classified folder/doc to reporters).

    I’ve seen arguments made that any documents removed from Trump Whitehouse is presumptuously declassified, but any removal wouldn’t have had happened without a POTUS’ approval (ie, move during transition before incoming POTUS).

    Sources?

    Honestly, I’ll need to dig for them and may take me a while.

    The crux of the debate, it think, is if POTUS must follow the same declassification procedures (set by Congress) as everyone else. Which seems to contradict the idea that POTUS has plenary declass authority (vis Article II of Constitution).

    whembly (123289)

  645. @649

    Until there’s actual evidence that Joe accepted a bribe from a foreign entity while in office, I’ll assume this story is full of sh-t.
    All allegation, zero evidence.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:02 am

    It’s an allegation from an apparent legit source.

    When this exploded on the ‘Net, I asked: Where’s the tapes, did FBI even tried to get it?

    There’s MORE evidence HERE, than there ever were on Trump’s Russian Collusion crap.

    All I want, is the FBI to treat this Biden bribery allegation with the same zeal and vigor they have done during that Russian Collusion allegation.

    Is that too much to ask for?

    whembly (123289)

  646. Christopher Steele was considered a “legit source”, whembly.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  647. https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/05/10/house-oversight-bidens-scored-10m-or-more-during-vp-years-from-foreign-influence-peddling-n549802

    That’s too bad, because James Comer’s warning to the Department of Justice on Monday appears justified now. Using banking and corporate records, House Oversight has tracked payments through nearly two dozen shell LLCs to demonstrate that at least $10 million flowed from foreign interests into the hands of the Bidens while Joe was vice-president. And Hunter was the nexus through which the money flowed

    Just a reminder that Biden is a corrupt, money laundering creature.

    NJRob (3fff2b)

  648. “Which seems to contradict the idea that POTUS has plenary declass authority (vis Article II of Constitution)”

    This is why we should only have adults be President: Serious men and women who appreciate national security. Now no one’s claiming that the week running up to Trump’s exit from the White House that he couldn’t have sat down and identified lots of documents for declassification. He has plenary authority to do that. What he doesn’t have is post hoc authority to retroactively say he declassified anything. The power ends January 20th and, like a tree that falls in a forest, if there is no evidence of declassification how could we ever distinguish an ex-President acting outside his authority? But again, why are we even entertaining putting this child back into the White House. The GOP electorate needs a time out. He’s unfit just asserting what he is about the handling the classified documents.

    “There’s MORE evidence HERE, than there ever were on Trump’s Russian Collusion crap.”

    As many times as Paul has addressed this, it’s a wonder how you can say this in good faith. You can almost say Trump Tower Moscow and stop there. Manafort. Russian hacking of Democrat servers. Personally I don’t want any candidates with sketchy connections who haven’t been thoroughly vetted. Trump wasn’t that.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  649. https://dersh.substack.com/p/why-donald-trump-cannot-get-a-top?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=373575&post_id=128526261&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

    There is a nefarious group that calls itself The 65 Project that has as its goal to intimidate lawyers into not representing Trump or anyone associated with him. They have threatened to file bar charges against any such lawyers. When these threats first emerged, I wrote an op-ed offering to defend pro bono any lawyers that The 65 Project goes after. So The 65 Project immediately went after me, and contrived a charge based on a case in which I was a constitutional consultant, but designed to send a message to potential Trump lawyers: if you defend Trump or anyone associated with him, we will target you and find something to charge you with. The lawyers to whom I spoke are fully aware of this threat — and they are taking it seriously.

    If true, they need to be prosecuted.

    NJRob (3fff2b)

  650. 3 chinese scientists have named ben hu as patient zero in covid a scientist who was playing around with covid in the wuhan lab. Not someone working at a fish market. (ACE)

    asset (68157a)

  651. But again, why are we even entertaining putting this child back into the White House. The GOP electorate needs a time out. He’s unfit just asserting what he is about the handling the classified documents.

    Awesome comment.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  652. 65 Project:

    The 65 Project is a campaign targeting lawyers who aided attempts by then-President Donald Trump and his supporters to overturn the 2020 election results using advertisements, threats of disbarment, and changing rules within the American Bar Association, ostensibly to deter future similar efforts.

    Using the law to overturn a legitimate election would be a legitimate Bar complaint.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  653. 65 Project complaint against Dershowitz. It involved Kari Lake and the 2022 Arizona election.

    DRJ (fd3827)

  654. that at least $10 million flowed from foreign interests into the hands of the Bidens while Joe was vice-president.

    I don’t know if anyone knows who got the money.

    You have to reaalze that It is extremely improbably that the money would have een equally split between Hunter and Joe.

    Somebody got laundered money but that it was Hunter and Joe Biden is probably a cover story.

    As for the tapes, what we have is Grassley and others saying (probably truthfully) that an FBI informant (who we can’t assume was accurate just because the FBI valued him as a source) said that Mikola Zlochevsky said he had 17 tapes of conversations with Hunter and Joe Biden, 15 with Hunter and 2 with Joe (who probably never met him).

    https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-tapes-hunter-burisma-allegations-chuck-grassley-1806241

    In a Senate floor speech on Monday, Chuck Grassley said an FBI document that he had seen, detailing unverified claims of a confidential source, revealed that a Ukrainian gas company executive who allegedly bribed President Joe Biden and Hunter Biden made audio tapes of phone conversations with them.

    Later I read something (no idea how accurate it is that the executive who the informant claimed had said he had audio tapes was none other than the principal of Burisma, Mikola Zlochevsky (who could not keep the gas leases if he was acknowledged as the person who ran Burisma.

    He might have said that, possibly (to create the appearance of corruption.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  655. (The above link takes you to the comments. This one takes you directly to the post.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  656. a tweet by President Trump and statements to the Wall Street Journal did not declassify a classified program involving aid to Syrian rebels.

    It doesn’t declassify anyting more than what that tweet says.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  657. I think the rules were most closely followed by the George W. Bush Administration.

    The Office of Records Management kept a list of the documents Trump e received and the National Security Council maintained a log of the classified documents he saw. Those inventories were shared with the National Archives and Records Administration, so that NARA would know about them.

    Here is what Karl Rove wrote:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-indictment-news-arrest-arraignment-jail-national-security-2024-presidential-race-9230357b

    Those documents didn’t belong to Mr. Trump, and he surely knew that. The president’s lawyers and staff must have warned him he couldn’t take the files. His top aides with security clearances had been made well aware of classified documents’ sensitivity, having all signed acknowledgments “that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling” of classified information “could cause irreparable injury” to the country, for which the government “may seek any remedy available.”

    It also had to have been explained to Mr. Trump that the White House Office of Records Management kept a list of the documents he received and the National Security Council maintained a log of the classified documents he saw. He must have known these inventories would be shared with the National Archives and Records Administration, so that NARA would know if he improperly took documents.

    That’s why in May 2021 the archives began requesting their return. When Mr. Trump sent some records back in January 2022, NARA knew he had more. When his lawyers said in June 2022 that after a “diligent search,” all remaining “responsive documents” had been returned, the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that wasn’t true. It took a search warrant two months later to collect the rest of them.

    Mr. Trump says there’s no criminal penalty for violating the Presidential Records Act. That’s true, but it only highlights how damning his behavior was. Congress thought a law so simple and clear would be honored by anyone entrusted with the presidency. Instead of living up to his office, Mr. Trump treated it and America’s national security flippantly, taking thousands of presidential records, among them hundreds of highly classified documents. It should have been evident to anyone who once occupied the Oval Office that documents containing some of the nation’s most important secrets shouldn’t be treated as trophies, shared with private guests, discussed with political associates or stored in bathrooms or ballrooms. Any staffer found guilty of doing that would go to prison for breaking the laws protecting the nation’s secrets, as Mr. Trump is now charged.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  658. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/opinion/donald-trump-indictment.html

    …A separate defense of Mr. Trump’s actions has been offered up by the former president’s lawyers for months, and lately it has been appearing with more frequency in right-wing media: He is not guilty, the argument goes, because of a law called the Presidential Records Act. Congress passed this law in 1978, after the Watergate scandal, specifically to prevent presidents from taking papers that don’t belong to them when they leave the White House. (An earlier law stopped Richard Nixon from destroying his own papers, including the Watergate tapes, after his resignation in 1974. Mr. Nixon challenged the law but lost in the Supreme Court.)

    The act says explicitly that the federal government “shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession and control of presidential records.”

    And this is how the Trump team interprets the records act: “The president can take whatever he wants when he leaves office,” said Kash Patel, a lawyer who served as a high-ranking national security adviser in the Trump administration. When the president takes a document, he went on, “it transitions from being U.S. government property to the personal, private property of the past president.” This is about as wrong as it is possible to be; it is literally the opposite of what the law says, especially when you are talking about the sort of highly sensitive documents — nuclear secrets, military strategies and so forth — that Mr. Trump is charged with illegally keeping in his possession. I would call it gaslighting, except it’s not creative enough.

    So, following to what Karl Rove says, anything recorded by The Office of Records Management as having been given to the president (or the vice president too I think) cannot be a personal record.

    There’s room for discussion about notes the president makes.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  659. What Trump argues, based on the audio tapes Bill Clinton secretly made and kept is about as wrong as it is possible to be; it is literally the opposite of what the law says

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  660. NYC Police Commissioner quit probably because Mayor Eric Admas wanted to protect some policemen from discipline.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  661. Trump was not indicted over keeping any documents he returned before the search warrant.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  662. I’m gonna bet that Cannon proves everyone wrong.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  663. Who do you mean by “everybody” and what do you mean by “wrong”?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  664. The thousand people who have all said that she’s a shill for Trump and will bend over for him, either blatantly or subtly.

    I think the will be Trump’s worst nightmare, and will hammer this trial though as quickly as possible, leaving no room for whaddabouts.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  665. *she

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  666. She left little doubt in the last go round that given her druthers she absolutely would be a shill for Trump. How far if at all she’ll bend over this time I have no idea and make no prediction. My point, as reiterated more fully and eloquently by Popehat, is only that should she choose to do so she has broad latitude to impose her will on the trial in myriad ways with little or no price to pay so long as she doesn’t go hog wild.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  667. @653

    Christopher Steele was considered a “legit source”, whembly.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 2:30 pm

    Career line agents called into question of that Paul.

    whembly (d116f3)

  668. @655

    “There’s MORE evidence HERE, than there ever were on Trump’s Russian Collusion crap.”

    As many times as Paul has addressed this, it’s a wonder how you can say this in good faith. You can almost say Trump Tower Moscow and stop there. Manafort. Russian hacking of Democrat servers. Personally I don’t want any candidates with sketchy connections who haven’t been thoroughly vetted. Trump wasn’t that.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/15/2023 @ 3:05 pm

    ..and you and Paul *hand waved* away about how it was conducted.

    Fact of the matter, is that FBI leadership wanted to keep the investigation going for partisan reasons. Career FBI agents has had called into question as to why keep the investigation open.

    You can’t call me acting in bad faith while ignoring Horowitz and Durham’s reports of “FBI acting badly to get Trump”.

    whembly (d116f3)

  669. Anyone who thinks this man should be allowed anywhere near national security information has lost their f’ing mind. (Pretty sure AJ said words to this effect upthread, but I don’t have time to find it right now, so let’s just call it a hat tip.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  670. Fact of the matter, is that FBI leadership wanted to keep the investigation going for partisan reasons. Career FBI agents has had called into question as to why keep the investigation open.

    This is the 2nd time you rested your argument on “career FBI agents”, whembly, and I don’t know that means, especially when (1) Horowitz (and Durham) concluded that the FBI investigation was predicated, (2) both Horowitz and Durham did not find evidence that political bias affected the FBI’s work, (3) that Durham endorsed the Mueller report (which basically dispensed with Steele), (4) that Mueller concluded that there was evidence of a conspiracy between Trump people and Putin people to help Trump win (but not enough evidence to indict) and (5) both Mueller and Durham agreed on Putin’s “sweeping and systematic” cyber/propaganda attack on America.
    Aside from whatever Danchenko conjured up and fed to Steele, I really don’t what you mean by “Russia hoax” because, except for the aforementioned, it was no hoax.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  671. lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:40 pm

    Only a rube could read that Trump tweet and not laugh.

    If I had been in a coma for the last decade, and then woke up and saw that tweet, I would start to wonder how politics got injected into professional wrestling smack.

    norcal (8b5267)

  672. And this guy wants his finger on the button? I wonder who he’d nuke first. This is starting to seem existential.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  673. 40% of democrats want rfk or anybody but biden. What biden and party hacks fear most is the left not RFK. Dr cornel west now candidate of green party next jill stein? Republicans in congress said biden didn’t give enough in debt ceiling bill. AOC and democrats said he gave to much. Republicans say they want more or will shut down the government. Donor class says give republicans what they want. AOC and left says you better not if you don’t want a primary challenge from the left.

    asset (44853b)

  674. If Biden loses to RFK Jr in NH or SC, he will have to drop out and let the party pick someone else. Even if he doesn’t drop out, there will be 5 challengers overnight.

    Kevin M (2d6744)

  675. One of the costs of Donald Trump’s endless scandals is that our media — and our leaders — pay less attention than they should to other problems, for example, the growing fentanyl problem,
    which is even affecting our troops:

    The Army lost 127 soldiers to fentanyl between 2015 and 2022, according to casualty records obtained by The Post through the Freedom of Information Act. That’s more than double the number of Army personnel killed in combat in Afghanistan during that same period.

    (I may be paranoid, but I can’t help wondering whether the ChiComs are doing all they should to stop the flow of fentanyl into the United States.)

    Jim Miller (521083)

  676. Sigh! This is not the Clinton Sock Drawer Case. This is the Melania Underwear Drawer Case.

    nk (24522f)

  677. A crystal chandelier in the bathroom, but no bidet. What a parvenu!

    nk (24522f)

  678. In his story about the cuff links he received as a wedding gift from Trump, Charlie Sheen warned us seven years ago that the guy is a fraudster. Apparently, Sheen wasn’t the only victim.
    Fast forward to this week, it was “Food for everyone!” and then he paid for no one.
    According to RCP, Messenger/HarrisX has Trump up by 36.
    My Grand Old Party, I hate.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  679. Also seven years ago, Trump was at 1%.
    Yes, polls change, but I don’t see the polls changing for Trump until Indictment No. 4.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  680. One of the costs of Donald Trump’s endless scandals is that our media — and our leaders — pay less attention than they should to other problems,

    Too bad we cannot go back to the glory days where the media had the time to lie about Trump’s feeding of Koi.

    BuDuh (629c92)

  681. urban, thank you for the concern. 🙂. She is going to be an excellent driver, but for the moment I am staying on top of my BP meds.

    I see there are a few comments I would like to respond to regarding my earlier topic. Since my last post I fell down a rabbit hole researching Presidential Libraries and the classified information they contain and how that information got there. There are classified documents that left with previous administrations, that current administrations declassified prior to any timetable set by the PRA. They never left the custodianship of the prior president. Before I comment any more I really want to get better versed in this end of it. The Former President’s Act seems to be very relevant in exactly how the National Archives is supposed to assist in the record handling and what the actual expectations should have been for Trump.

    I’ll be gone for a while while I see if this deep dive has teeth.

    BuDuh (629c92)

  682. @679

    This is the 2nd time you rested your argument on “career FBI agents”, whembly, and I don’t know that mean.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:46 pm

    Then I’ll stop responding to you then, as I’m convinced that you’re unable to separate Trump’s bad deeds from the FBI’s own bad deeds.

    And, I don’t think we can continue this discussion as we both have our opinions and there’s no traction to convince each other otherwise.

    whembly (d116f3)

  683. BuDuh,

    In seriousness, there is no rabbit hole to go down. The archives said to Trump please, pretty please, give the documents back. Trump did not comply. He did not receive a legal opinion that he did not have to comply. (His lawyers told him the opposite.)

    I agree with Andrew McCarthy that the treatment of Hillary Clinton — who showed a similar level of sheer wilfulness — makes the prosecution of this case more difficult. But there are two important differences between DJT and Hillary — (i) when law enforcement made a request, she complied with it; and (ii) the laws governing this conduct were tightened during the Trump administration, for the purpose of preventing someone like Hillary Clinton from getting away with her nonsense ever again.

    We have reached the situation where the default position in the GOP is that laws do not apply to Donald Trump. Too many of his supporters devote their lives to finding excuses for him. It would be better spent figuring out how to further their cause without the DJT drama.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  684. Those supporters should get a life, Appalled. My motives are not the same as theirs.

    I’ll check in in a while and let you know what I have found in my spare time.

    BuDuh (629c92)

  685. If Biden loses to RFK Jr in NH or SC, he will have to drop out and let the party pick someone else. Even if he doesn’t drop out, there will be 5 challengers overnight.

    Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:30 pm

    If Biden loses in NH it will be because of the primary schedule change the Democrats forced through removing NH as the first primary. Both Iowa and NH (as first contests) are overrated for both parties.

    There is no way Biden would lose in SC. Jim Clyburn would see to that.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  686. Sources?

    Honestly, I’ll need to dig for them and may take me a while.
    ……….

    whembly (123289) — 6/15/2023 @ 1:42 pm

    I’ll be patient.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  687. BuDuh:

    Tom Fitton at Judicial Watch seems to be the source for the Presidential Records Act approach. If you are interested, I would track down where he is getting it from. (He is not a lawyer, by the way.)

    Appalled (65d092)

  688. Then I’ll stop responding to you then, as I’m convinced that you’re unable to separate Trump’s bad deeds from the FBI’s own bad deeds.

    Well, that’s too bad, whembly, because I haven’t taken a blind eye to their “bad deeds”. At the same time, I think you’re overinflating what those deeds are, and I’ll note that you don’t have an answer to my five points.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  689. whembly (123289) — 6/15/2023 @ 1:42 pm

    The declassification process is governed by an Obama-era Executive Order, which Trump did not amend to include “declassification by thought”.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  690. I think a less fruitful rabbit hole to explore is one that has us pretending you really want to engage in a thoughtful conversation, Appalled.

    But that is how you spend your time…

    BuDuh (629c92)

  691. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:30 pm

    Biden may not even be on the NH primary ballot.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105)

  692. BuDuh,

    I’ve been up front that I think this line of reasoning is pretty dumb and I don’t think you should waste your time with it. You treat it more seriously and think there is more to it and say you are going to find some more stuff. Fine — I give you a research suggestion. It might help.

    If that offends you, there’s very little I can say. If you had been brought up in the pre-Civil War South, you probably would have fought a lot of duels.

    Appalled (65d092)

  693. Why do you waste your time, Appaled? You have no idea what my line of reasoning is. You proved that when I asked you to articulate what you thought it was.

    I have to cut the strings now. You are not invested in anything more than giving speeches.

    BuDuh (629c92)

  694. #702 —

    It’s a question I often ask myself…

    Appalled (65d092)

  695. 13.

    Last year Mickelson told a biographer that the Saudis are “scary motherf— to get involved with” and that they killed Jamal “Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights.

    And they are not so good in waging war, also.

    It’s been speculated that the reason MbS decided to invest in golf – they do this with any different businesses – was to funnel money to Donald J. Trump. Trump’s golf courses were suffering from a bit of boycotting. With the merger he’ll be more than restored.

    This would not need to be coordinated in advance with DJT, The Saudis give gifts ad rely on people to make their own calculations, as Prince Bandar once openly said (perhaps to cover up instances where there is advance agreement..

    There are some 500 former U.S> defense and other officials who were employed by the Saudis and the UAE – and members of the Biden Administration or current military can also look forward to that if they don’t alienate the Saudis.

    It works a little the other way too. Saudi Arabia is half making peace with Israel (although they still stay in the camp of its enemies – in fact it is better for Saudi Arabia that there should be an enemmy camp)

    On the other hand they are not keeping the price of oil low and work with Russia on that. Oil prices are something that is merely in the interest of the country and make a great deal of difference to the Saudis. No strong feelings.

    The golf thing is not just some Sausis but the investment vehicle is 93^ owned by

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  696. Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:12 am

    There is no way Biden would lose in SC. Jim Clyburn would see to that.

    Which is why he wants to have SC ahead of NH for the Democrats.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/19/politics/jim-clyburn-joe-biden-dnc-south-carolina-2024-presidential-primary/index.html

    Now NH may resist.

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  697. 696. The lawyer for Judicial Watch brought that 2010-12 lawsuit.

    Technically, the separation is all supposed to be done by the president’s last day in office.

    They tried to do it contemporaneously in the Trummp House but Trummp would not go along.

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  698. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/15/us/politics/trump-documents-boxes.html

    …During President Donald J. Trump’s years in the White House, his aides began to refer to the boxes full of papers and odds and ends he carted around with him almost everywhere as the “beautiful mind” material.

    It was a reference to the title of a book and movie depicting the life of John F. Nash Jr., the mathematician with schizophrenia played in the film by Russell Crowe, who covered his office with newspaper clippings, believing they held a Russian code he needed to crack.

    The phrase had a specific connotation. The aides employed it to capture a type of organized chaos that Mr. Trump insisted on, the collection and transportation of a blizzard of newspapers and official documents that he kept close and that seemed to give him a sense of security.

    One former White House official, who was granted anonymity to describe the situation, said that while the materials were disorganized, Mr. Trump would notice if somebody had riffled through them or they were not arranged in a particular way. It was, the person said, how “his mind worked.”…

    …Starting in the early months of his administration, Mr. Trump began using a cardboard box to bring papers and documents from the West Wing up to the residence at the end of the day.

    In the White House, according to two people familiar with the practice, Mr. Trump was generally able to identify what was in the boxes most immediately around him. One of those people said he was “meticulous” in putting things in specific boxes — notwithstanding a picture released by the Justice Department showing classified documents spilled on the floor of a storage room at Mar-a-Lago…

    How is that a contradiction?

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  699. More:

    Shortly after John F. Kelly took over as Mr. Trump’s chief of staff in July 2017, Mr. Kelly and other aides grew concerned that some documents were likely presidential records and might go missing if they were kept in the residence. They impressed upon Mr. Trump that the papers had to be tracked, but he was not especially interested, the people said.

    Aides started examining the boxes to check for presidential records, but Mr. Trump still found ways to bring items to the residence. And the boxes began to multiply.

    He could point to specific boxes that he wanted to take with him on Air Force One when he was traveling, and decline to take others, appearing aware of the contents inside the boxes he chose, both officials said.

    The same was true when Mr. Trump left the White House, according to one person briefed on how he behaved. He knew the contents of the boxes around him. Some aides would periodically encourage him to condense the number he had in his immediate vicinity. Another person familiar with Mr. Trump’s habits said that when one box filled up, aides over the past two years would take it away and store it, bringing him a new one.

    Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf)

  700. Didn’t the NYT also run stories about how Trump never read anything? Now they say he consumed such mass quantities of documents that they filled box after box after box?

    steveg (01b432)

  701. @697

    Well, that’s too bad, whembly, because I haven’t taken a blind eye to their “bad deeds”. At the same time, I think you’re overinflating what those deeds are, and I’ll note that you don’t have an answer to my five points.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:23 am

    Note whatever you want, you’ve and I discussed these points at numerous times over the years.

    whembly (d116f3)

  702. @698

    The declassification process is governed by an Obama-era Executive Order, which Trump did not amend to include “declassification by thought”.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:23 am

    Again, you’re acknowledging that POTUS isn’t a unique office…I think. (although, declassification by thought is dumb af, but there’s argument to be made that actions by authority of POTUS could be enough to declass).

    That EO definitely governs non-POTUS, absolutely. But for current/future POTUS, I’m not so sure that’s true seeing that POTUS is *the* declass authority.

    whembly (d116f3)

  703. @695

    I’ll be patient.

    Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:16 am

    I’m having a hard time finding to be honest, but I know it was AFTER the election, but before J6. The sheer number of J6 articles to sift through is immense.

    I’ll try something else tonight.

    whembly (d116f3)

  704. steveg (01b432) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:27 am

    Didn’t the NYT also run stories about how Trump never read anything? Now they say he consumed such mass quantities of documents that they filled box after box after box?

    Well, he could have taken them upstairs to read, but never read them. You know, like some people do with newspapers and magazines. Or so the people around him thought.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  705. 694. Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:12 am

    If Biden loses in NH it will be because of the primary schedule change the Democrats forced through removing NH as the first primary. Both Iowa and NH (as first contests) are overrated for both parties.

    What would most likely happen is that the Democrats will find some excuse to not deprive New Hampshire of its votes in the Democratic convention (maybe give it half) and not to hold a caucus (they are really down on caucuses since Obama used them to beat Hillary)

    Jooe Biden may not officially enter the New Hampshire primary, nor campaign there, but he will (lightly) encourage a write-in.

    He will still most likely beat RFK Jr, but if RFL Jr gets 25% to 40% of the vote, it will be discounted.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  706. 652

    Where’s the tapes, did FBI even tried to get it?

    It was a U.S Attorney who was in charge of that, but how could they get them from Zlochevsky?

    Maybe if they paid him $30 million, but you’d get fake tapes.

    These tapes are like one Steele reported.

    IF Zlochevsky even really claimed he had them

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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