Weekend Open Thread
[guest post by Dana]
Let’s go!
First news item
Loose lips sink ships and all that:
Former President Donald Trump acknowledged on tape in a 2021 meeting that he had retained “secret” military information that he had not declassified, according to a transcript of the audio recording obtained by CNN.
“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” Trump says, according to the transcript.
CNN obtained the transcript of a portion of the meeting where Trump is discussing a classified Pentagon document about attacking Iran. In the audio recording, which CNN previously reported was obtained by prosecutors, Trump says that he did not declassify the document he’s referencing, according to the transcript…The transcript of the audio recording suggests that Trump is showing the document he’s discussing to those in the room. Several sources have told CNN the recording captures the sound of paper rustling, as if Trump was waving the document around, though is not clear if it was the actual Iran document.
“Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this,” Trump says at one point, according to the transcript. “This was done by the military and given to me.”
Trump was complaining in the meeting about Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley. The meeting occurred shortly after The New Yorker published a story by Susan Glasser detailing how, in the final days of Trump’s presidency, Milley instructed the Joint Chiefs to ensure Trump issued no illegal orders and that he be informed if there was any concern.
“Well, with Milley – uh, let me see that, I’ll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn’t that amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him,” Trump says, according to the transcript. “They presented me this – this is off the record, but – they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn’t done by me, this was him.”
“All sorts of stuff – pages long, look. Wait a minute, let’s see here. I just found, isn’t that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this.”
“Secret” and “confidential” are two levels of classification for sensitive government documents.
Second news item
Trump attorneys Jim Trusty and John Rowley step down:
Trusty and Rowley also said they will no longer represent Trump in a pending federal criminal probe into his efforts to overturn his loss in the 2020 election to President Joe Biden.
They say it’s because of the move to Miami but this was not planned as of yesterday. pic.twitter.com/Fe7PKGnPBj
— Kaitlan Collins (@kaitlancollins) June 9, 2023
Third news item
Mitt Romney, consistently reasonable and thoughtful::
“Like all Americans, Mr. Trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The government has the burden of proving its charges beyond a reasonable doubt and securing a unanimous verdict by a South Florida jury.
“By all appearances, the Justice Department and special counsel have exercised due care, affording Mr. Trump the time and opportunity to avoid charges that would not generally have been afforded to others.
“Mr. Trump brought these charges upon himself by not only taking classified documents, but by refusing to simply return them when given numerous opportunities to do so.
“These allegations are serious and if proven, would be consistent with his other actions offensive to the national interest, such as withholding defensive weapons from Ukraine for political reasons and failing to defend the Capitol from violent attack and insurrection.”
Fourth news item
More aid to Ukraine as the spring offensive is underway:
Today, the Department of Defense (DoD) announced a new security assistance package, underscoring the unwavering U.S. support for Ukraine. This package, which totals up to $2.1 billion and includes critical air defense and ammunition capabilities, is being provided under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI)…
The capabilities in this announcement include:
Additional munitions for Patriot air defense systems;
HAWK air defense systems and missiles;
105mm and 203mm artillery rounds;
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems;
Laser-guided rocket system munitions;
Support for training, maintenance, and sustainment activities.
Fifth news item
Brutal and heartbreaking account from Ukraine:
Winter was hell. Now a new hell has begun.
You know how psychologically, if you are hit once, it hurts. The second time you get hit, it doesn’t hurt as much. And the third time, when you are hit like that, it seems to be the norm.
But then a new constellation of events forms: your friends and relatives are fighting at the front line, and you begin to lose them. A close friend died before the New Year. It was a time of crazy grief for me. A new emotional phase begins, when you can’t understand why. You saw death in the beginning, but now it touches you directly.
Before, just a few rockets came down during air raids. Now, the Russians have developed their tactics to intimidate civilians. We face near-nightly barrages around Kyiv. As soon as the attacks start, all the car alarms go off. We wake up to horrible explosions. You watch the huge red balls flying, and you don’t know where they’re headed. On one night last month,¹ for example, the Russians launched six Kinzhal missiles, nine Kalibr-type cruise missiles, three anti-aircraft ballistic missiles, six Iranian suicide Shahed drones and three Orlan-type reconnaissance UAVs. During a recent attack, my balcony doors were blown out by the shock wave.
When the raids start, we all run to the basements. Sleepy children are picked up by their mothers and carried. We sit there for three or four hours. By then, it’s morning. You come back to the house, have a coffee, take a shower, and go to work. The first time, you can do it. By the third day, you don’t have the strength anymore.
Everybody talks about stress, all the time. It’s a pain we share. We had more or less already adapted to the lack of electricity and such things. We took precautions; we bought generators and some other equipment. We warmed up in each others’ apartments so there was as little space as possible to heat. But now that a more psychological phase of the war has begun, we hardly sleep at night, and we still have to go to work during the day. In these conditions, you come to an emotional dead end. You don’t understand what to do next.
Everyone tries to think about something else. At work, I look at my colleagues, and we have no energy at all. The management suggested that we should all take five days off to go to the mountains somewhere—maybe the Carpathians or Poland, where we won’t hear the explosions every night. We can’t go for a break in the woods closer to home, because they have all been laid with mines.
For many, our nervous system is at its limit. I take sedatives both for sleep problems and psychological problems. The most horrifying thing, it turns out: you can’t live without a future. You live and you don’t know what awaits you. You don’t know how to organize your daily routines, or how to plan anything. You have no future, and this makes life eerie and terrifying.
Sixth news item
Bipartisan concern in Congress over potential LIV/PGA merger:
The PGA Tour’s planned merger with Saudi-backed LIV Golf has sparked a surprise bout of bipartisan harmony on Capitol Hill: Conservatives and liberals are uniting to thrash the deal.
Some lawmakers are calling for congressional investigations. Others are looking to the Justice Department and other federal regulators to first explore the case for blocking the move on antitrust grounds. Only after regulators act, they say, is there likely to be appetite for Congress to enter the picture — even as a majority of its members are openly wary of the deal.
…
Scores of members of Congress have criticized the golf mega-merger, warning that it would help consolidate the Saudi government’s U.S. influence despite deep bipartisan concerns about its human rights record.
What a difference a money makes:
Many are also calling PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan a hypocrite, noting that he said one year ago, “I think you’d have to be living under a rock to not know there are significant implications” to players aligning themselves with Saudi Arabia.
Seventh news item
Texas putting buoy barrier in Rio Grande:
Texas is set to deploy a buoy barrier in the Rio Grande as part of plans to deter migrant crossings, Gov. Greg Abbott announced Thursday.
He shared the news after he signed six bills related to border security. Funding will come from $5.1 billion approved by the state legislature to secure the border.
“What we’re doing right now, we’re securing the border at the border,” Abbott said. “What these buoys will allow us to do is to prevent people from even getting to the border.”
The first 1,000 feet of buoys will be deployed at Eagle Pass, which Steve McCraw, director of the state’s Department of Public Safety, called “the center of gravity for smuggling.” The first deployment will cost under $1 million and will begin “pretty much immediately.” Officials did not share a more specific number for the cost of the barrier.
…
Officials hope the buoys will act as a deterrent to prevent migrants from entering the water. While there are ways to overcome the buoys, which can range in size, it will take a lot of effort and specialized skills.
Eighth news item
House reaction to Trump being indicted is about what you would expect:
WITCH HUNT.
— House Judiciary GOP (@JudiciaryGOP) June 8, 2023
Today is indeed a dark day for the United States of America.
It is unconscionable for a President to indict the leading candidate opposing him. Joe Biden kept classified documents for decades.
I, and every American who believes in the rule of law, stand with President Trump…
— Kevin McCarthy (@SpeakerMcCarthy) June 9, 2023
President Trump is indicted on the day we unveiled significant findings related to Joe Biden’s corruption.
Makes you wonder.
— Rep Andy Biggs (@RepAndyBiggsAZ) June 9, 2023
Let’s be clear about what’s happening: Joe Biden is weaponizing his Department of Justice against his own political rival.
This sham indictment is the continuation of the endless political persecution of Donald Trump.
— Steve Scalise (@SteveScalise) June 9, 2023
For comparison, go back and read Mitt Romney’s response (#3).
Ninth news item
The federal indictment against Donald Trump has just been unsealed. You can read it in full here.
The 44-page indictment filed in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida alleges that Trump “endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal retention of classified documents.” The indictment names Walt Nauta, an aide to Trump who served as a White House valet, as a co-conspirator.
The indictment lists 37 counts in all against Trump:
31 counts of willful retention of classified documents
1 count of conspiracy to obstruct justice
1 count of withholding a document or record
1 count of corruptly concealing a document or record
1 count of concealing a document in a federal investigation
1 count of scheme to conceal and one count of making false statements and representations.At least four of the charges carry a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.
Have a good weekend.
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (560c99) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:59 amSummary of Trump Indictment:
From the previous thread, but revised and updated.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:08 amhttps://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive
Sitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.
I think that’s worthy of a top post.
NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:18 amOutside of the allegation, what is the supporting evidence?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:21 amThe Saudis are indeed awful, but I find it kind of funny that everybody is up in arms over their influence in the PGA, considering that wealthy citizens of repressive Arab states own a number of venerable soccer clubs throughout Europe, and that Saudi Arabian soccer teams are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to sign international stars like Cristiano Ronaldo. Don’t think for one moment that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL or any other country wouldn’t allow some Middle Eastern oligarch to purchase a North American franchise if the price was right.
JVW (7d171f) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:22 amSitting President accused of a massive bribe over a prosecutor he admitted gett8ng fired in a nation we are heavily involved in financially and militarily.
I think that’s worthy of a top post.
There is time, NJ Rob. Let’s allow the story develop some more. Hunter Biden has been ordered to appear in court in Arkansas regarding his attempt to have his child support payments lowered, and this might unlock some more information as to his business dealings and the potential that his old man had a finger in the pie.
JVW (92f7d2) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:25 am“Secret” and “confidential” are two levels of classification for sensitive government documents.
I think that Trump can be excused from knowing the different levels of classification. He isn’t interested in details unless they are petty.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:35 amOfficials hope the buoys will act as a deterrent to prevent migrants from entering the water. While there are ways to overcome the buoys, which can range in size, it will take a lot of effort and specialized skills.
How many days before a child drowns caught up in the buoys?
Did you know they put liver-destryong acetaminophen in narcotic pain meds to deter addicts from abusing them? No, really.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:38 amBrutal and heartbreaking account from Ukraine
It’s the Blitz, all over again. I think that Russia should consider how many times over that bombing was returned to Germany.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:48 amTrusty and Rowley also said they will no longer represent Trump in a pending federal criminal probe into his efforts to overturn his loss in the 2020 election to President Joe Biden.
Shorter: their bill remains unpaid.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:50 amIt would be if there were actual evidence, but it’s still allegation only.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:52 amI desire equal justice. The same dissemination tye Steele allegations got.
NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:19 pmJack Smith was the soul of brevity.
PGA+LIV=GREED.
This part is also relevant.
The NBA ruined professional basketball for me, after the Sonics were undeservedly relocated to OK City, followed by the league’s capitulations to the ChiComs, and the PGA just ruined professional golf for me. I’ll be taking my sports entertainment choices elsewhere. Go Seahawks!
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:26 pmThe bribery allegation should be the centerpiece of Biden’s impeachment.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:48 pmFrom the start, Jack Smith’s indictment pops…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:59 pmSure you do, Rob, but how about you start with actual evidence. All you have so far is an anonymous source making a claim. If it is established that Biden was enriched by some questionable actors while vice president, then I’ll support his impeachment.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:03 pmThis also gives a new meaning to bathroom reading.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:14 pmToo funny!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:15 pmI’ve updated the unsealed indictment post.
Dana (560c99) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:26 pmOh hey, but by allowing repressive Arab states entry into the western sporting elite we can “help steer [them] toward more progressive policies.”
Does that sound like a load of bullshit? Because that is the justification that MIT and plenty of other western institutions of higher education use for taking money from repressive regimes to use for research purposes.
JVW (e938a2) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:26 pmMar-a-Lago member: “You can really go anywhere,” including where documents were supposedly stored
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:28 pmSoccer and golf, two of the most boring sports in the world.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:30 pmPaul,
The anonymous sourcing and scandalous reading of the Steele trash didn’t bother you.
NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:31 pmAlong with Khashoggi’s assassination, “progressive policies,” there is also the Saudi attempt to drill for more water in drought-stricken Arizona.
Dana (560c99) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:31 pmJVW,
MIT and other leftist universities are oppressive on their own. They only permit leftist and anti-western thought. It’s logical they’d partner with another regime that’s hostile to freedom.
NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:32 pmAnother Fox (and Trump-Adjacent) Employee Ousted:
It isn’t only CNN that is having problems with its direction.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:44 pmYou’re lying again, Rob.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:47 pmGood grief. In Item 75 of the indictment, the FBI found 102 classified documents*, of which 27 were found in Trump’s office. Out of that 27, six were Top Secret (which I assume are not allowed to be seen outside a SCIF), eighteen were Secret and three were Confidential.
* There’s no point anymore in saying they’re “documents with classified markings”, a phrase that leaves open the possibility that they could have been declassified, but after Trump said on tape in mid-2021 that, “As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” that possibility is no more, IMO.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:57 pmHis declassification claims are a hoax, a Declassification Hoax.
In looking at the various counts, starting on page 38, the first few caught my eye…
Count 3: “Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States, with handwritten annotation in black marker.”
I’m assuming “black marker” refers to the kind of fat Sharpie that Trump used to edit the path of a hurricane.
Count 5: “Document dated June 2020 concerning nuclear capabilities of a foreign country.”
That type of document is protected by statute, therefore cannot be declassified by a president.
Count 7: “Document dated October 21, 2018, concerning communications with a leader of a foreign country.”
Count 8: “Document dated October 4, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country.”
Count 9: “Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country.”
Is this Milley’s document about Iran?
Count 10: “Document dated November 2017 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country.”
There’s too many others to cut-and-paste, but any count with “Top Secret” and “NOFORN” are serious business.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:14 pmI think that Trump can be excused from knowing the different levels of classification. He isn’t interested in details unless they are petty.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:35 am
Spot on, and funny!
norcal (8b5267) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:14 pmDebt Ceiling Vote Blowback:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:34 pmMore About Mr. Gaetz:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:38 pmhttps://www.newser.com/story/336341/highlights-from-trumps-unsealed-indictment.html
https://www.newser.com/story/336342/jack-smith-addresses-gravity-of-trump-charges.html
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:40 pmYes, a menial aide also was indicted:
https://www.newser.com/story/336335/in-mar-a-lago-case-one-new-indictment-and-2-ex-lawyers.html
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:43 pmMost favorable judge, favorable jury
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:44 pmPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:57 pm
Trump lately said they were declassified automatically – i.e. without him knowing it,
Sammy Finkelman (25fa75) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:59 pmThat is, treting themm as if they were not classified, declassified them. All these documents were in his possession before noon Jan 20, 2021
Sammy Finkelman (25fa75) — 6/9/2023 @ 4:00 pmDana, I know a lot of people get all snarky and nasty about Mitt Romney. I don’t. That was a good statement he made.
Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 6/9/2023 @ 4:01 pmMitt Romney is the honorable Senator from Utah. The other Senator is Mike Lee, who infamously compared Trump to Captain Moroni, a heroic figure in the Book of Mormon.
If Utahns choose a Trumpy nominee for Senator over Romney next year, then they will be certifiably nuts.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/9/2023 @ 4:41 pmMore on the Republican Rebellion:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 4:48 pmHow does this quote come into play with anonymously sourced articles?:
BuDuh (30a11d) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:10 pmFred and Mary Anne should never have let Donnie hang around that Hillary girl and that Biden hooligan. They were a bad influence.
Nancy Sinatra has a song that’s near perfect for Trump’s situation, and it’s not due to anybody but Trump.
nk (2a8bc8) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:43 pmStep 1, if you believe it’s possible that Biden bribed Burisma to get rid of Shokin, then show that there was an active or pending investigation that Shokin was engaged in against Burisma. If you cannot show that, then what sense does the blackmail make?
The people who most talked about the Steele Dossier….and the infamous pee tape….were those who exhaustively mocked it. Most people took it for the raw, unsubstantiated data that it was. The legitimate concerns about Trump included things like his planned Moscow Trump Tower….and how it would get financed….and the deep Russian ties of Manafort who was running Trump’s campaign.
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:02 pmthere is also the Saudi attempt to drill for more water in drought-stricken Arizona.
To be fair, a lot of Americans have been doing that, too.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:05 pmYou’re lying again, Rob.
This is how we have fights. Just ignore him if you don’t think he’s being honest. This is just bound to get another flame war started. Is that what you want?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:07 pmwhich I assume are not allowed to be seen outside a SCIF
No, SCI material must reside within a SCIF. Not all TS material is SCI.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:08 pmHere’s a guide to classifications:
Confidential: This type of plane can carry nuclear weapons.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:12 pmSecret: This type of plane can carry 12 nuclear weapons of the following types…
Top Secret: This plane here is carrying 12 100kT nuclear gravity bombs.
Dana, I know a lot of people get all snarky and nasty about Mitt Romney. I don’t. That was a good statement he made.
The country would be richer, far less divided and the world a much safer place if Mitt Romney had completed his second term in 2020. Our Covid response would have been rational and measured instead of the stampede they made of it with Trump at the helm.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:18 pmKevin,
I’m not going to follow up. I’m just reminding people that in the past had no problem going after Trump with innuendo and baseless remarks (they acted like Adam Schiff was a truthteller) have now changed their tune because it’s Biden. That says it all.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:38 pmRip,
supporting documentation comes from druggie Biden’s laptop and druggie Biden’s business partners. Or did you forget?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:39 pmHe said that after the search warrant, Sammy. When he thought he was getting away with it, he had a different story.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:51 pmGov Sununu just had a bizarre interview on CNN where he acknowledged the seriousness of the indictment, but then used 80% of his time bashing the DOJ. SMH. His point was that the DoJ had to go on TV and explain to the public the difference between this prosecution and what went on with Hillary or what is currently still going on with Biden. That was extraordinary….not that the public needs educating…they do, but that he believed that it was the job of the DoJ. No…absolutely not. The DoJ should not wade into politics and have to explain the actions of other people in DoJ. That would be awful. Stop.
That job should fall on media and the GOP leadership to explain to its voters what the difference is…ala Chris Christie, Mitt Romney, maybe Larry Hogan. In fact, Gov Sununu should have taken his 6min to do some of that himself…and establish his own record. I get what he was saying: most people don’t dig in and really try to understand this stuff. They are busy working hard, raising kids, and worrying about inflation and unfair trade. But Sununu made it sound like the DoJ has to sell itself that it is being fair; however, it does this by not making this case about each and every other case. The details ARE different…and political leaders need to honestly articulate that to their political supporters. Otherwise WTF?!
I like Chris Sununu. I think he’s on team normal. I was a bit annoyed by his winking over at team abnormal. Chris Christie did a much better job today.
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:54 pmIf I were Jack Smith, I’d file a motion to strike Judge Cannon from the case.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:58 pmHer bias in the prior Trump case and the rebuke from the 11th Circuit should be enough to question her objectivity.
Since this is an open thread, I thought I’d remark on how the ChiCom-friendly, culture-degrading Disney changed the ending to the first Indiana Jones movie. They thought they’d get away with it!
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:01 pmHuh.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:31 pmThere are 27 judges in the Southern District Court in Florida, so there was a 4% chance that Cannon’s name would come up.
@55, PUTIN!!!!!!!
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:46 pmTrump has called on his “MAGAdonians” to show up at the “Trump Document Hoax” rally at the US Courthouse in Miami on Tuesday. The Proud Boys are also circulating the announcement on social media. We’ve already seen this movie. I suspect law enforcement will be out in full force.
Also, at a rally tonight:
For obvious reasons, this is all troubling. Trump will ratchet up the anger and resentment that his supporters typically display even more so than usual, and push them to fight on his behalf. And sadly, they will.
Dana (560c99) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:30 pm@57 I warned this would be the problem with political trials. Civil war is politics by other means. This is not 1972 when bipartisanship was more popular until the nixon pardon which included committing treason with south vietnam to win 1968 election. Bush and clinton were not prosecuted for this reason and the Iran/contra traitors were pardoned. Taking bribes is difficult enough to get a conviction. (see john edwards) If floriduh the jury pool will be full of trumpsters ready to lie their way on to the jury and if it is bumped to D.C. their will be hell to pay. Trumpsters are already talking on line about going after the vermin in the media. Populists are not pro law enforcement economic libertarian conservatives. Populists are not the followers of william f. buckley.
asset (d8646a) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:49 pmthe hard-right opposition metastasized into a floor rebellion this week.
If they can’t act out over the debt-limit bill, they will by damn act out over something. They need to make a big stink over everything so that their constituents don’t replace them with some other firebreather.
It’s not like they can actually pass something after all.
It’s getting to the point where visitors to Congress will be told not to wear Red or Blue.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:15 pmGov Sununu just had a bizarre interview on CNN where he acknowledged the seriousness of the indictment, but then used 80% of his time bashing the DOJ. SMH.
You are going to get a headache then. The GOP response is two-fold. 1) they will paint the DoJ as a bunch of fork-tongued partisans who didn’t charge Hillary, etc and 2) they will do their best to let Trump twist in the wind while seeming to support him in this UNJUST prosecution.
Nowhere are you going to see anyone outside the inner cult saying something like “Trump is innocent.”
Now you can call out all the facts or assertions you want that Hillary was unjustly accused. Will. Not. Matter. Her story is written. Besides, “What difference, at this point, does it make?”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:21 pmThe Proud Boys are also circulating the announcement on social media. We’ve already seen this movie. I suspect law enforcement will be out in full force.
What could go wrong?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:26 pmLast March I said that the NY charges were a mistake, as they were clearly political and would taint the real cases to come. I hate being right.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:52 pmMAGAdonians.
You’ve got to give McShtuppen credit. If dat boy don’t know how to sort out the short bus people, ain’t nobody does.
nk (1f777f) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:16 amAileen M. Cannon presiding with a Miami jury. I’ll write the headline now: TRUMP JURY HUNG, TRUMP ENVIOUS BUT HAPPY
nk (1f777f) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:19 amIt’s not really funny.
This spoiled, rich jerkoff, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, America gave him mansions and penthouses, private clubs and private planes, fancy cars and fancy women, marble bathrooms with crystal chandeliers (a crystal chandelier in a bath), and he spit and continues to spit on our laws and our institutions and steals our national defense secrets and keeps them in his marble bathroom. With the crystal chandelier.
And when he’s caught, America gives him the full benefit of our laws, with sworn peace officers, and a grand jury, and a judge he appointed, and a jury in a friendly venue for his trial, and his moron followers hold him up as a victim of injustice.
Jordan Neely was begging for his daily bread in the New York subway and was strangled to death and these same morons hold up his killer as a hero and a “Good Samaritan”.
Un-f***ing-believable!
nk (1f777f) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:53 amIt’s amazing to me that anyone is still on this incompetent boob’s bandwagon.
He deserves his day in court but the allegations laid out in the indictment, if proven, are damning. And the evidence referenced in the indictment appears strong and compelling.
But we will see. Trump has a knack for screwing up and getting out of it. He’s also built a support base that loves him far more then they do the USA so that’s another tool in his tool box.
Time123 (b33f4d) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:58 amJordan Neely was begging for his daily bread in the New York subway and was strangled to death and these same morons hold up his killer as a hero and a “Good Samaritan”.
Except for being a pack of lies, you have a point.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:37 amTime,
If this was assigned to another judge, Trump’s lawyers would be seeking a plea. Now, probably not, at least not right away.
I don’t see Cannon as being able to gut the case, but she may be willing to make a series of rulings, all of which fail on time-consuming appeals — further enhancing Trump’s victim-creds and adding delay.
All Trump wants is to push any trial past Jan 20, 2025 so he can pardon himself.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:41 amExcept for being a pack of lies, you have a point.
You’re the liar. Every word I wrote is true.
nk (f7c063) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:53 amJordan Neely was demanding his daily bread in the New York subway and threatening to kill people if he didn’t get it and was subdued in a way that led to his accidental death and these same morons hold up Neely as a victim.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:55 amFixed it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:56 amAnd besides, it really only distracted from your otherwise spot-on post.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:57 amOr are you saying that anyone who thinks Neely was in the wrong is a Trump cultist and/or moron? Because I’m not the only one here who will take exception to that.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:59 amI think Jack Smith will move to replace Judge Cannon due to her significant error in the special master ruling. Now, it may be that she is not in fact a Trump-shill, but was just wrong on the law and facts. The argument would be that justice can’t be tainted by the appearance.
The bigger problem might be the jury. Obviously a grand jury agreed with the charges, but I see south Florida being a tough venue to find 12 jurors open to conviction. Could someone be found that doesn’t have an opinion on the matter and who doesn’t have a partisan bent? These days? Maybe Smith saw the opposite problem in DC and figured let’s just jump in front of the venue change. We could see jury nullification.
The question will then be, can this get done before next June even? Especially with Manhattan and the likelihood of Georgia sprouting in August…and then maybe a J6 indictment too. Trump will not want to expedite anything. Hell, except for the precarious legal position, he’s probably loving the fund raising potential he has now. But with motions and appeals and wanting the calendar to reflect his other legal entanglements, can we get this done before the convention?
Still, will this start to move his popularity? Some say up, but I think this will start soft-MAGA to look to the general and the chaos of possibly multiple trials simultaneously running. It would sure create drama that hard-MAGA will find irresistible. But too many good people will recognize that this would be horrible for the country and for Republican politics. I still predict Trump does not get the nomination.
Now does he run 3rd party anyways? Likely, right? His play is to win the Presidency and stop all prosecutions. The question is whether the GOP wants to become the criminal syndicate to make it happen. I’m not confident.
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:07 amWe will see how sympathetic Daniel Penny comes across. He was placed in a difficult situation by NYC allowing mentally troubled individuals to harass riders and not provide adequate police response. Yes, Neely did not initiate the physicality and Penny did not appear to carefully assess Neely’s condition in the hold, but Penny’s state of mind and the other passenger’s fear will factor into how jurors will see this. I still think Penny will go to trial because NYC can’t afford having more preemptive attacks on troubled individuals, but I understand frustration with being locked in a car with someone deranged and unpredictable.
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:20 amNow, it may be that she is not in fact a Trump-shill, but was just wrong on the law and facts.
And she may bend over backwards to avoid appearing as such.
The bigger problem might be the jury. Obviously a grand jury agreed with the charges, but I see south Florida being a tough venue to find 12 jurors open to conviction. … jury nullification.
I think that Smith chose South Florida because of the pesky 6th Amendment:
The question will then be, can this get done before next June even? Especially with Manhattan and the likelihood of Georgia sprouting in August…and then maybe a J6 indictment too. Trump will not want to expedite anything.
Maybe. It depends on the judge and how willing she is to allow delays. It would help if the judge herself was not issuing orders that the prosecution needed to appeal, but Trump is a vexatious appellant.
It may be that the weight of all these cases, and the incredible likelihood of a long sentence if he drags it out (some of these charges are headshots) may force him out of the race entirely. If he’s willing to plead and cut a deal, there is a short window where the State will be interested.
I still predict Trump does not get the nomination.
Agreed. And he won’t run 3rd party either with these cases hanging over his head as that is not the best path to gain goodwill at sentencing.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:27 amThere is a problem with jury nullification, but that is just the flip side of a prospective juror intending to convict. I think it’s something that federal prosecutors are able to detect and thwart.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:31 amTrump’s best bet is to drop out now and hope that the GOP wins and the next president pardons him, “due to the political nature of this prosecution when compared the lack of prosecution of similarly situated Democrats.”
Assuming, of course, that the J6 case doesn’t blow that up.
You will note that most of the GOP is avoiding the case itself and simply talking about political bias and double standards. It’s not the same kind of thing they said about the outrageous NY gotcha case by a DA with gubernatorial ambitions.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:38 amAJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:20 am
I was making no judgment about Penny in that context. Only about privilege. Yeah, I know the word “privilege” is overused and misused but there is still privilege just the same. And it comes with concomitant obligations.
The only privilege Jordan Neely had had, for a long time, was to be allowed to exist. And the concomitant obligation to society was not his but society’s own. Not to take it away from him without due process.
nk (f7c063) — 6/10/2023 @ 9:06 am> Assuming, of course, that the J6 case doesn’t blow that up.
There’s also the case that’s almost certainly coming in Georgia.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/10/2023 @ 9:56 am“Privilege” is indeed overused, and misused.
Donald Trump has privilege. So do the Kennedys, the Bidens, the Bushes, etc. Most everyone else does not.
What we have are expectations. I have the expectation that the authorities will treat me fairly. No better of worse than my actions deserve. That is not, however, privilege. Privilege is the expectation (or actuality) that one will be treated BETTER than their their rights as a citizen require.
The problem is, of course, that some have learned that those expectations rarely match reality. They are treated instead by authorities as second-class citizens, or worse. In short, their rights are not honored (or defended) by the authorities. This failure should not be confused with “privilege.”
This is, of course, what BLM is all about after you strip away all the bandwagon and grifting stuff. A demand for equal treatment.
If you want to see an example of privilege, here’s a video of a old white guy thinking that he will be treated special by riot cops as he berates them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlmAfv-mrXA
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:07 amThere’s also the case that’s almost certainly coming in Georgia.
Antone not moved by the documents case won’t be moved by that one either.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:08 amHeath Mayo, on the difference between Hillary and Donald document situations…
Nevertheless, I still think her conducting State Department business on her home-brewed server rises to the level of “gross negligence”.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:11 amAs for Neely, the city conspired to leave him on the street. He did numerous things, perhaps daily, to get himself put into custodial care. But this would have cost the city money, which it would rather spend on the salaries and perks of city employees. Everything else is secondary.
So, Neely caroms from one predicament to the next, unable to cope in the big city, and eventually he takes his madness up a level where others react in fear. Penny is no more responsible for Neely’s death than the guy who strikes out at the end of the 9th inning is responsible for losing the game.
The people who could have saved Neely from the inevitable result of his madness are the same ones pointing the finger at Penny. I’d say “Shame!” but it really could have been any bureaucracy anywhere.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:14 amTed Kaczynski (81) has died. With the death of Soviet and Russian spy Robert Hanssen, hell’s waiting room is getting crowded.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:15 amThe people most inclined to label themselves “patriots” ostentatiously are people who say that America is corrupt if it doesn’t give Trump what he wants, and America is rotten if it holds him accountable for violating the law and hurting the country.
Trump’s apologists claimed that whatever his flaws might be, he “loves America” more earnestly than all his critics do. But his version of patriotism is highly conditional: America is great if he’s in charge, or if America makes him great.
MAGAs lapped up the performative flag-hugging and the “we win / you lose” brand of foreign policy. Some say that “Trump is America” and “if you hate Trump, you hate America.”
GOP politicians still take the position that defending Trump is more important than defending the rule of law and more important than protecting national security.
During the Trump presidency, there was a spike in the number of foreign intelligence assets who were killed or captured – at the same time as some White House insiders were noticing Trump’s casual treatment of classified material and his inability to comprehend why things needed to be kept secret. He didn’t understand all the “sources and methods” concerns, for one thing. He just thought “I’m the president and I can do what I want with this information,” such as divulging it to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in the Oval Office.
After that incident, the intelligence community decided it was necessary to extricate an asset from Russia. Briefers learned early on that they needed to be careful about what information they allowed Trump to see.
MAAGA apologists are either oblivious or indifferent to all that. They fall back on “He was the Duly Elected President, and he had the authority to declassify anything,” plus the more bizarre notion that Trump knew best what was in America’s best interest and would always, unfailingly, put America First — notwithstanding his routine displays of extreme self-centeredness.
Radegunda (0edccc) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:17 amHeath Mayo, on the difference between Hillary and Donald document situations…
Nobody is listening. Hillary’s “crimes” are well-known and it does not matter whether it is actually true. It’s truthy enough for be invulnerable to long-winded, detailed rebuttals. Nobody wants to rehash that any more.
So, instead, satisfy yourself that the GOP reaction is not “Trump is innocent” but more “they only go after Republicans with these charges!” That is not a defense of Trump (although he may think it is) but an acknowledgement that he’s guilty, and a political talking point meant to keep MAGA in camp while Trump swings.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:20 amThe people most inclined to label themselves “patriots” ostentatiously are people who say that America is corrupt if it doesn’t give Trump what he wants, and America is rotten if it holds him accountable for violating the law and hurting the country.
This is true, but ignores that other groups do the same damn thing. When W was president, opposing the Iraq war or post 9/11 measures was “patriotic” as well. Even the 9/11 Truthers thought they were the patriotic ones.
This really just an extension of the “we are good, they are evil” partisanship that’s been going on for quite some time.
Moods change, self-righteousness rarely does.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:24 amNevertheless, I still think her conducting State Department business on her home-brewed server rises to the level of “gross negligence”.
It’s a direct violation of federal laws regarding conduct of government business. If was not “negligence” — it was intentional and calculated to make her conversations unrecoverable by the government, contrary to law.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:26 amI mean independent sources of corroboration-bank records, telephone records, and live witness testimony. Stuff that holds up in court called evidence.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:29 amPaul,
It should be noted that, even though dissemination cannot always be proved, when there is a large cache of documents, or indications that dissemination was going on, both the charging decisions and the sentencing reflect that.
So, in a case where a former sergeant has 10,000 classified documents and, when arrested, has a memory stick with 1500 of them on it, they will treat it as a case of actual espionage even if they cannot prove it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:35 amSo, doing some research on using USB drives for nefarious purposes, I came across this:
Not very expensive, either.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 10:38 amI forgot about the thumb drive, Kevin. It sounds like a backup was made, by someone, and given to her lawyer, and it’s as non-kosher as all the other crap she’s pulled.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:07 amGiven the laptop’s chain of custody issues (after being possessed by Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, the New York Post, and WaPo) I wouldn’t trust anything on it as holy writ. Whatever documents are on the laptop need to be authenticated by the authors before they can be used in court.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:35 amPerhaps, but I don’t remember the people who took those positions literally wrapping themselves in the flag and routinely putting the “patriot” label on themselves or chanting “USA!” as Trumpites do. There was more of “America is the bully, arrogantly trying to control other countries” and “the U.S. government is just as indifferent to human rights as the countries it criticizes.”
It’s true that the right wing say our government is tyrannical when Democrats are in charge, and vocal people in the MAGA right now claim that Russia’s war to subjugate Ukraine is really a defensive action against “threats to Russian civilization” that ultimately come from the U.S. And that’s really head-spinning.
But it’s long been true that the political right is more self-consciously “patriotic” than the political left. There’s more “proud to be American” responses to surveys on the right than on the left, more flag-waving, more Lee Greenwood, etc.
Then, the political right turned a malignant narcissist into its ultimate “patriotic” hero and organized its sense of patriotism around his desires and interests. “If you hate Donald Trump, you hate America” is a distillation of that degraded understanding of what is patriotic.
Radegunda (0edccc) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:38 am“it was intentional and calculated to make her conversations unrecoverable by the government”
It’s quite the day when Kevin is driving me to defend Hillary…to a point.
The FBI did investigate this extensively. What was clear, as detailed in the comprehensive story linked below, was that this was no great techno-scaper. Hillary was notoriously tech-phobic. She never learned how to use a desktop computer, preferred her Blackberry to an iPad, and hated to upgrade her devices after learning and getting comfortable with its features.
This was a woman that understood that we could now communicate much faster, but really didn’t comprehend security issues and FOIA transparency requirements. She put it all on assistants, with some guidance from General Colin Powell thrown in to boot. The big problem was that she didn’t want two phones to separate her work emails from her personal emails. This created an unholy mess. Yes, some of the emails contained classified markings and some were upgraded after inspection. She claimed ignorance and demonstrated efforts to use email and skirt classified details.
A lot of emails were deleted as an attempt to carve the personal from the work. Again, Hillary wasn’t sitting there for hours reviewing 10’s of thousands of emails. This was her staff, likely searching by keyword, and deleting results in mass. Bad, but not exactly intentional…like her trying to hide secret payoff deals with China. This was grandma…ok screeching grandma….overwhelmed by technology. Not exatly an excuse, but it carves away at intentionality.
Powell did recommend that she conduct as much business as possible without a paper trail. I can almost believe that she did not grasp that (c) at the start of the paragraph actually meant something important. Was this reckless? Absolutely. She risked interception and doctoring. Was this illegal? Perhaps, though it rests on intent. It might also surprise one to appreciate how much business at state was done outside of government servers. The good thing is that this did shine some light and hopefully pull practice closer to the DoD and its contractors.
So, many of her conversations were recovered. It does not appear that she calculated anything. She should have been indicted on principle to drive a point, even if she was ultimately found not guilty. I’m glad she wasn’t elected President. I’m just sorry that the alternative couldn’t have been more ethical….
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/hillary-clinton-emails-2016-server-state-department-fbi-214307/
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:39 am“I read in the news that some people said that a government agency with which they may or may not be associated got a report from a unknown source of therefore unknowable reliability that the President took a bribe. I think that’s worthy of a top post.”
Fixed that for you.
On an unrelated note, I know a guy who knows a girl whose husband’s nephew’s T-Ball coach has pilates with a part-time barista who occasionally serves coffee to the nanny of a mid-level executive at a minor Fortune 500 company. So, have I got a hot stock tip for you!
Demosthenes (525864) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:40 amNot “undeservedly relocated.” Purchased and moved.
Yay capitalism, and go Thunder!
Demosthenes (525864) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:46 amThis was a woman that understood that we could now communicate much faster, but really didn’t comprehend security issues and FOIA transparency requirements
So, she accidentally stumbled up a setup that hid all her communications, was immune to 3rd party subpoena and erasable at her command, while refusing to use the government-provided devices? Because she was tech-phobic? This dog doesn’t hunt.
She accomplished all her goals with this server and would never ever have delivered any of its contents to the government archives if she had not been caught.
Having been caught, she played the clumsy victim of circumstance. Luckily for her, she was believed by her friends.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:03 pmTrumpWorld Keeping It Classy:
Who knew it took this for Alina Habba to be embarrassed and ashamed to be a lawyer, and not after being sanctioned nearly $1M for “frivolous” and “vexatious” litigation relating to Trump’s RICO lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and dozens of others.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:06 pmI will accept that she did not set up the server. If there is a Hell, then programmers there spend all their time editing Sendmail config files for capricious users.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:07 pm“This will actually help Trump get re-elected by a wide margin. Then he will go on a rampage….”
And this is what they want. They don’t want a President, they want a strongman dictator who cuts down the law to get at the (many, many) devils. They want camps and liquidation of their opponents. They want Emperor Trump the Retribution.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:13 pmClassic FoxNews, they start with an all-allegation zero-evidence story about Joe Biden taking a $5 billion payout while VP, and then they changed their all-allegation zero-evidence story.
You’d think that after being penalized in court by 157½ times the amount of the alleged bribe for their all-allegation zero-evidence stories about voting machines, they’d be a little more careful about “reporting” on all-allegation zero-evidence stories.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:18 pmLuckily, these charges mean that 1) Trump will not be the nominee, 2) that Trump will not run 3rd Party, and 3) MAGA will support the GOP’s candidate.
Why? Because Trump needs a pardon, and only another Republican can give him one. Besides the probable disallowance of a self-pardon, there is the unelectability issue. His best bet is for DeSantis (or whomever) to pardon him or commute whatever sentence.
Unless, of course, the judge throws all the charges out.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:20 pmbe a little more careful about “reporting” on all-allegation zero-evidence stories.
I guess Burisma could sue, but claiming a politician took a bribe is routine and generally protected in libel law.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:22 pmTed Kaczynski’s hate-filled screed remains online at the Washington Post and other hate sites.
Sorry no link for hate.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:28 pm“So, she accidentally stumbled up a setup that hid all her communications, was immune to 3rd party subpoena and erasable at her command, while refusing to use the government-provided devices?”
You start with the premise that she’s a master villain and that as Sec of State she is involved in all of this alleged nefarious corruption. It all just ends in inuendo. It didn’t hide all her communications. She provided lots of communications for Benghazi. She did in fact respond to other congressional calls for data. The question is, were things missed because of their sloppiness? Possibly. I would encourage you to read the synopsis of the FBI investigation that I linked to. These are professionals who do this for a living.
AJ_Liberty (36dc92) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:36 pmWe’ll see. I think MAGA world would rather sit out the election rather than being unable to vote for Trump, especially if the nominee is one of the Lilliputians.
Rip Murdock (f2fe26) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:43 pmWhat’s your point? Trump has said he is their retribution.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:45 pmI’m going to take a wild guess and say that, by this time next week, Trump will still poll above 30% for the GOP nomination, which should tell anyone the percentage of unreasoning cultists in my party. I would love to be wrong.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 12:48 pmKevin m – it’s hard to resist the conclusion that many of them view the Holocaust as a model, as long as the victims are liberals, and just want a leader with the courage to take us there
aphrael (001ab1) — 6/10/2023 @ 1:05 pmWhen the elite “thinkers” of MAGA-land assert that every American voter who didn’t vote for Trump is “not American in any meaningful sense” and that it’s time to move beyond the “technocratic process of vote-counting,” they’re saying that they’ve given up on constitutional democracy because it too often delivers the “wrong” results. They’re delegitimizing the choices and actions of the non-Trumpite party and claiming a moral right to use extraordinary means to get what they want, rather than trying to persuade voters to go their way. It’s the “Flight 93” doctrine amped up in a way that practically invites the MAGA base to resort to violence.
Radegunda (0edccc) — 6/10/2023 @ 1:05 pmAdd in the claim that any law enforcement against their amoral, sociopathic cult leader is unequivocally illegitimate and tantamount to an attack on America itself, and you’ve got a really toxic brew.
I doubt it will change much next week, what will be interesting is what Morning Consult tracking poll will be the week after his arraignment. My prediction is that it will go up. ⬆️
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 1:16 pmWe’ll see. I think MAGA world would rather sit out the election rather than being unable to vote for Trump, especially if the nominee is one of the Lilliputians.
Trump will ask them to vote. He needs the GOP to win and for the new president to owe him.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 1:38 pmBut will they? They consider DeSantis and Scott Wall Street globalist stooges, they object to Haley because she took down the Confederate flag which led to removal of Confederate statues and the renaming of military bases and ships, Pence and Christie are traitors, Ramaswamy (along with Haley) aren’t natural born citizens, and they just laugh at Hutchinson.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 2:33 pmCorrection.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/10/2023 @ 2:49 pmJudge Cannon chances of getting the case was a lot higher than 4%.
I think they need to change their rules, to account for prior cases involving the same parties (such as the prior case between Trump and DOJ) where the judge was rebuked on legal and ethical grounds.
Good comments, Radegunda
Dana (560c99) — 6/10/2023 @ 4:04 pmThe prior case is this case. It was SOP for Cannon to get the mess thrown back into her lap, and not some other judge with his own caseload to manage.
One party will win on appeal and the other party will lose. It does not follow that the prevailing party gets a new judge.
nk (83f428) — 6/10/2023 @ 4:33 pmKari Lake Campaigns To Be VP:
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:14 pmProfile in Courage:
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:34 pmBut will they?
Did you know that not one of the first 7 presidents were born to US citizens?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:39 pmThey consider DeSantis and Scott Wall Street globalist stooges
That Trumpists call other people “stooges” is one of those irony things.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:40 pmOne party will win on appeal and the other party will lose. It does not follow that the prevailing party gets a new judge.
Unless they are Microsoft.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:41 pmIn a way, this is ironic. Trump has spent considerable time and effort attacking the Rule of Law. Now he complains that the DoJ is lawless in these charges.
Sir Thomas More could explain it to him.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:46 pmDid you know that not one of the first 7 presidents were born to US citizens?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 5:39 pm
Actually it was the first nine presidents, and the 12th (Zachary Taylor). However, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 (the Qualifications Clause) of the Constitution allowed them to become President:
(In his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, Justice Joseph) Story explained that this was done “out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honors in their adopted country.”
Which of course has nothing to do about the irrational citizenship claims by TrumpWorld regarding Haley and Ramaswamy.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:14 pmThanks, Dana.
I wonder if Kari Lake has calculated that she needs to be as atrocious as possible to be a star in MAGA-land, or if she really is a malignant loon.
“I will prevent World War III. … Without me, it will happen, … I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”
Nobody else says things like that because nobody else in public life is such a deranged, off-the-charts narcissist. And if he possesses the magical key to preventing nuclear war, why the heck won’t he tell anyone the secret before it’s too late?
His cult followers are so moronic that they believe his inanities. They whoop and cheer when he claims that he could end the Ukraine war within 24 hours, and they never ask “how?” Much less, “Why don’t you divulge your secret plan so the killing and dying can end tomorrow?”
I read that back in 1986 Trump claimed that if Reagan made him an envoy to the Soviet Union he could end the Cold War in an hour. Maybe age made him slightly more modest about his singular powers of persuasion, but his self-estimation is still insane.
What’s weirder is how many people buy into his own preposterously inflated sense of his own exceptional genius and totally faultless character. It’s like a form of mass psychosis.
Radegunda (16fcbd) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:14 pmWhat’s weirder is how many people buy into his own preposterously inflated sense of his own exceptional genius and totally faultless character. It’s like a form of mass psychosis.
They’re still at Nuremberg, planning Kristallnacht. They have not had to retreat from Stalingrad yet. The one time they suffered pain, he and his enablers managed to shift the blame to Fauci.
nk (5ad3ba) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:17 pm29,. Count 9: “Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country.”
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:14 pm
No, that can’t be it. That document was about a possible attack or attacks on Iran’s nuclear program and its defenses.
Trump had all kinds of documents relating to military and foreiign policy, and they were unsorted.
He said on the recording (which was it turns out not with TWO ghostwriters, but with one ghostwriter and a representative of the publisher of the Meadows book) that he had just happened to stumble across it.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:33 pmMore From Georgia (And North Carolina):
Rip Murdock (f2fe26) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:48 pmHalf of them adhere to the delusion that every charge against Trump is a hoax concocted by the Deep State to take him out because he’s so committed to Draining the Swamp.
Radegunda (16fcbd) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:49 pmThe other half admire his brazen disregard for rules and laws and basic decency.
Well, that settles it. Who needs legal “experts” when you’ve got a sales manager to set the matter straight?
IOW, the main concern is not electing a president who can lead the country with integrity and wisdom. The main concern is to protect Donald Trump and ensure that he gets his revenge.
Radegunda (16fcbd) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:55 pm> It’s like a form of mass psychosis.
It’s *absolutely* a form of mass psychosis.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/10/2023 @ 7:59 pmTrump is deliberately trying to enflame the populace to get himself out of punishment for his crimes, and he doesn’t care if he destroys America in the process.
Or maybe, maybe, he *wants* to destroy America — and rebuild it in his own image.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:01 pmNow do George Floyd, BLM and “white supremacy.”
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:37 pmHeck I’ll make it easy on you.
Do “trans genocide” and “don’t say gay.”
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/10/2023 @ 8:39 pmThis will be obliteration — perhaps obliteration of the entire world. I will prevent it. Nobody else can say that.”
HEY!! I can say it! Rip can say it, too! With about as much truthiness.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/10/2023 @ 11:59 pmWhich of course has nothing to do about the irrational citizenship claims by TrumpWorld regarding Haley and Ramaswamy.
Which is why they passed the 14th Amendment as otherwise states would have said that freemen were not citizens when born.
But yeah, those folks should really not be allowed out in public.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:02 amNJRob — no.
I’m simply not going to engage with you on the subject of the current spate of laws targeting gay and trans people, full stop.
There aren’t enough drugs to compensate for the damage discussing them with you would do to my mental health.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:04 amAll day Saturday, there were signs that Trump’s staunchest backers were unmoved by the news.
Well, that’s not really meaningful. What would be interesting is if donations to others stepped up.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:06 amThe main concern is to protect Donald Trump and ensure that he gets his revenge.
Because it’s their revenge, too. They expect camps to open up and all the people they denounce will be sent to the gulags.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:12 am@144 I be glad to do it. Our side says as do the spartans with your shield or on it homophobe! My side is ready how about yours?
asset (df1673) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:57 am145 As jebbie bush and the other 15 dwarfs found out the hard way in 2016 and as AOC showed joe crowley money with nothing to say is of little value. Desatan and his running dogs in the media will be yelling trannies! And illegals! Democrats will counter with ABORTION! and insurrection/treason! Democrats had no real message in 2022 and would have been crushed in the election until the supreme court handed them the hill to die on. Abortion. You have gun grabbing we have womb grabbing. 80% of voters oppose a ban on abortion and don’t want to have to use a coat hanger! They will vote out every republican on the ballot!
asset (df1673) — 6/11/2023 @ 1:08 amThey will vote out every republican on the ballot!
Not the comment of someone who wants to be taken seriously.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/11/2023 @ 2:24 amThis is Putin’s corrupted Russian Orthodox church.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:01 amSo when the left lies and stokes hate and violence you don’t think that’s tearing the nation apart or just refuse to engage?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:03 amhttps://www.dailywire.com/news/blue-jays-cut-pitcher-who-apologized-for-sharing-video-on-bud-light-target-boycotts
Fired for supporting Christianity.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:08 amhttps://pjmedia.com/culture/robert-spencer/2023/06/09/red-sox-pitcher-cut-loose-after-offending-the-thought-police-n1701991
Fired because preaching Christianity is now hate speech.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:09 amLenin outlawed the Russian Orthodox Church after the Revolution.
Stalin, who BTW was a seminarian, brought it back during WWII to add Christianity to the existing patriotic mix of Communism and Russian nationalism in the fight against the Nazis.
It has been an instrument of the Soviet/Russian state since.
nk (ff3b0e) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:33 amThat Red Sox pitcher link at 153 is definitely brain-damaging. But then, most PJMedia links are, these days.
nk (ff3b0e) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:37 amWow, I’m watching Ramaswamy on State of the Union, who pledged he would pardon Trump on Day One. He’s not only foreign policy idjit on Putin’s War On Ukraine, he’s an idjit on the Presidential Records Act and Espionage Act.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:37 amTo paraphrase Laura Ingraham, shut up and pitch.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:43 amThe ballplayers are free to express themselves, and the team is free to come up to the player and say, “son, this is the toughest job a manager has…but…the organization wants to make a change”.
The new indictment has sparked a new feeding frenzy among Trump’s dung beetles (they don’t all qualify as “gold diggers” or “remoras”) to roll up as much as they can while the rolling’s good.
nk (1bc244) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:58 amWhat Matt Dermody tweeted: “#PrideMonth. Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. They will go to hell. This is not my opinion, but the #Truth. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9. May we all examine our hearts, ask Jesus to forgive us and repent of all our sins. I love you all in Christ Jesus!”
AJ_Liberty (abc29a) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:59 am“he would pardon Trump on Day One”
If Ramaswamy doesn’t have a problem with Trump, he shouldn’t be running.
R: “This indictment selectively omits facts & law and *wreaks* of politicization. The real question is whose invisible hand is guiding it. We will get to the bottom of it.”
Trying to entertain those low-information GOP voters. How about tell the truth. Be a leader. And don’t presume you’re qualified for the Presidency because you’re rich. If you can’t tell the truth about Trump, what else are you lying about?
AJ_Liberty (abc29a) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:41 am@53
Unfortunately, only Judge Cannon can do that herself.
Such a motion will likely fail.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:53 amAlso regarding Judge Cannon, if Trump’s lawyers (the ones who haven’t resigned) are smart about it, they’d request a bench trial.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:55 amI used to like you, Demosthenes. 😉
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:05 am@152 & 153-
It’s the Golden Rule-
He has the gold makes the rules.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:06 am@83
Both are bad.
I think on Trump’s case, it was an ego/cavaliere attitude on his part. He was the POTUS and felt it was his documents.
In some ways, I think Clinton’s case was much worst. During her tenure as SoS, she ONLY had class/declass authority over her own agency’s documents. And she chose to do ALL of her email business at her UNCLAS address for both convenience and oversight avoidance.
Furthermore, the whole argument that there were little to no classified documents found at her UNCLAS address is a lawyerly, specious argument. There were numerous communications from Clinton who instructed her staff to remove the markings and either print it (pls print) or send to her UNCLAS email. What this meant, was that she instructed her STAFF to break the law so that Clinton can conduct all of her business on her UNCLAS email address. It’s bizarre to me, that her staff went largely unscathed and it’s telling why her defends are insistent to make the argument that “no classified markings” weren’t found at her address.
Having said all that, if you dispute my framing, let me put it this way, and I think it depends on an honest assessment if you thought she was competent at her job as SoS:
We know, for a FACT, that she exclusively used her private email address to conduct her SoS duties. If everything was kosher, then how was she able to competently do her job, if there weren’t any classified spillage at her private email address?
See where I’m going with?
Can we at least, recognize the gaslighting here, in defense of Clinton?
We can say Trump did a bad thing.
Just as we can say Clinton did a bad thing.
The fact that Clinton escaped justice, shouldn’t mean Trump should too. But, you’d have to deal with the two-tiered justice arguments to, and I’m not sure how we can ignore that isn’t happening too.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:09 amIn the federal system, the government has a right to a jury trial same as the defense.
nk (ff0779) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:14 am@100
Don’t forget, that every step of the way, the FBI allowed Clinton’s laywers to dictate what can be search and when.
The FBI afforded immense deference towards Clinton, during the emails investigation. (with the understanding that she’s the likely next President).
That’s another immense difference between Clinton and Trump.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:15 am@102
She actually started with an old Apple server used in her foundation. That was switched to a homebrew server with MS Outlook, to handle the load and security.
Wired did a story on this, (can’t find the article) and they were able to get to the admin logon screen from their office. ( I was able to, as well on the day of the publication ). If Wired and *I* can access the admin page, that means it was a “hot” server on the world wide web where ANYONE can try to brute force their way in. Nation states, obviously, had their way with it.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:19 am@105
This is my hope how this ends as well. But, in my circle, those who voted for him are pissed and are talking about voting for him again out of spite of his opponents and what they see as a government persecution.
I pray, that those sentiments dies down by the time the primaries rolls around. I’m trying like hell, to convince them to vote for DeSantis.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:22 amwhembly, I think your argument would’ve been stronger had not the Tillerson State Department and Pompeo State Department not investigated her home-brewed server problem and, for all practical purposes, came up with rags.
Also, we all know Trump is a petty and vindictive sumbich, yet he either didn’t or couldn’t persuade two Attorneys General to pursue her prosecution, despite all her whining and sour grapes about the manner of her defeat.
I’m also a little bewildered, whembly, because read the first 31 counts of the indictment. Trump willfully and purposely kept nuclear secrets in a f-cking country club and then obstructed their return to its rightful owner, the US government, after a subpoena demanded their rightful return. I simply don’t see how that’s better than Hillary’s situation.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:32 amhttps://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/06/case-closed-it-was-a-lab-leak.php
There is zero doubt that Covid-19 came from a lab and was weaponized accordingly. There is no doubt those funding the lab knew so as well.
The London Times has done a remarkable service in their linked article that everyone should read.
NJRob (648286) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:40 amWow, I’m watching Ramaswamy on State of the Union
He’s Deep Trump. Wait until Trump is charged with insurrection.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:45 amAlso regarding Judge Cannon, if Trump’s lawyers (the ones who haven’t resigned) are smart about it, they’d request a bench trial
I think they’d be disappointed in the result.
The things that a judge can do, as a judge, are what should worry us — exclude evidence, dismiss charges, sentence the guilty, etc.
As a finder of fact, the law is pretty clear on what you cannot do with classified information. I don’t see Judge Cannon engaging in nullification as a jury might.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:53 amThe fact that Clinton escaped justice, shouldn’t mean Trump should too. But, you’d have to deal with the two-tiered justice arguments to, and I’m not sure how we can ignore that isn’t happening too.
As I said, the inherent bias is a separate problem, and one that needs to be dealt with. Outside of the cultists, GOP politicians are NOT defending Trump but, as cover, amplifying the political part of the problem: DoJ bias.
If you don’t believe that the Biden DoJ is biased, note that it has prosecuted several Trump aides for Contempt of Congress for refusing to testify in the J6 probe. Congress may well find Biden officials in Contempt in the near future, but it’s foolish to believe that the current DoJ will prosecute them.
That is bias pure and simple.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:01 amThe Wuhan lab created a coronavirus that was vastly more dangerous than covid-19, which fortunately has not yet escaped
That’s the War version. The trial version worked well, so it’s all tested and ready to “escape.”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:04 amKevin you’re begging the question there. “If you don’t believe the Biden DOJ is biased, just assume that they are and there’s your proof of bias!”
That’s not to say they aren’t.
Nate (1f1d55) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:07 amA new CBS/YouGov poll finds:
And:
And
Of those identifying themselves as MAGA Republicans v. Non-MAGA:
Importance of GOP presidential candidate to:
GOP Presidential Nomination:
Who are you considering for the nomination-includes multiple responses:
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:09 amI can think of only two: Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro. The DOJ didn’t pursue contempt charges against Mark Meadows or Dan Scavino.
So it’s a split decision.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:15 amKevin you’re begging the question there. “If you don’t believe the Biden DOJ is biased, just assume that they are and there’s your proof of bias!”
I’m sorry you read it that way, but that’s not what I said. The FBI is withholding “evidence” that a committee has subpoenaed and the Director may be found in Contempt. What I said is that I very much doubt the DoJ will prosecute the FBI Director like they did Trump aides.
They could prove me wrong, but if they don’t, it’s clear bias. There is no assumption there at all. There is a bet — that I’m happy to take up at even odds.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:20 amSo it’s a split decision.
Do you expect Wray to be indicted if Congress votes contempt? How many of the Obama officials who refused to testify were prosecuted? Zero is a hard number.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:23 amTranslation: “I think Trump should get away with whatever he wants, even when he incriminates himself with his own words, in addition to his lawyers’ words, video, photos, texts, etc. … and therefore all the prosecutors, grand juries, judges, and legal analysts across the land who look at the evidence and say he appears to be quite guilty — even Bill Barr and Jonathan Turley — are being controlled by the invisible hand of the nefarious Deep State.”
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:29 amRip,
That poll is taken in the heat of the moment and very few of the respondents have full information. But there are a few things to note when we get away from the raw meat questions:
This shows that many are dissatisfied with Trump’s 2020 focus and would prefer to ignore his legal problems. They also want to be done with a Trump-centric world, as would we all.
They may say that they’d want Trump to be the nominee if imprisoned, but that’s just bluster. These are people who would rather lose badly than admit they were wrong.
I suspect that the dead-enders were far more available to pollsters than the terribly-disappointed.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:31 amTranslation: “I think Trump should get away with whatever he wants
What is really scary here is the thought that this kind of thing might become accepted and Presidents become Kings, acting by divine right. Even ex-Presidents.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:35 am> https://www.dailywire.com/news/blue-jays-cut-pitcher-who-apologized-for-sharing-video-on-bud-light-target-boycotts
A canadian company fired someone prominently associated with the company for engaging in public political protest the company doesn’t want to be identified with in the public mind.
The last thing they want is for someone to think the *Blue Jays* have endorsed boycotts in one direction or another.
I’m currently involved in organizing a mass protest-shutdown on reddit, and if I dragged my employer’s name into it, it would *violate my employment contract* and I could be disciplined or fired. How is this different?
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:39 am> https://pjmedia.com/culture/robert-spencer/2023/06/09/red-sox-pitcher-cut-loose-after-offending-the-thought-police-n1701991
Here, the Red Sox are clearly in the wrong, firing someone for something he said *before they hired him* which they could and should have known about before they hired him.
It’s particularly offensive because he’d deleted the tweet, which more or less renders it invisible.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:41 am> who pledged he would pardon Trump on Day One.
Any successful Republican candidate for President will make the same promise.
National security doesn’t matter when it comes to Trump; he can get away with anything, because his supporters immediately believe any criticism of him is motivated by animus against them.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:44 am> We know, for a FACT, that she exclusively used her private email address to conduct her SoS duties.
We also know that both of her immediate predecessors (Rice and Powell) maintained their own servers and routed email through them, and that there was no effort to criticize or punish them for it.
Which is part of why the whole issue has always landed as massively politically motivated for me.
Surely the standard should be the same for all three?
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:48 am> Trump willfully and purposely kept nuclear secrets in a f-cking country club and then obstructed their return to its rightful owner, the US government, after a subpoena demanded their rightful return.
Right? How anyone can defend this as *ok* is beyond me.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:49 am> don’t consider it a national security risk for Trump to possess classified information
I’m not sure I consider it a risk per se for Trump to possess classified information, but for him to store it the way he did is *absolutely* a risk.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:50 amWhen Trumpites speak of “democratic accountability” they mean unquestioning obedience to the Duly Elected President– as long as it’s someone they like.
They’ll raise legitimate complaints about bureaucratic agencies wielding legislative and judicial powers in addition to their executive function, and sometimes undermining a Republican president’s agenda. But they’ve tied their “drain the swamp” project to someone with very open dictator envy and a manifest belief that his will cannot ever be wrong and whatever he does is always perfect, so any resistance or accusation of wrongdoing against him is evil. Trumpites echo his psychopathology when they bluster in outrage that their hero is being held accountable for serious violations of law.
Then there are the Trumpites who more overtly long for a king — the ones who have defended Putin and suggested that the Russian model is the answer to what they dislike about America today.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:07 amWhich doesn’t explain why 75% of respondents say the are considering voting for Trump, far more than anyone else.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:09 amWe’ll see what the numbers are next month and through the summer. I suspect Trump will be above 50%.
As to their opinion about Trump’s handling of classified information and their view of the indictment, I think it’s pretty clear.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:14 amTrump’s biggest con is getting millions to believe that whatever he does is for their sake — so whatever hurts him actually hurts them. I don’t credit him for genius in doing so; I blame the gullibility of those who have turned off whatever discernment they might possess because they so want a bold and brazen hero to beat up their enemies.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:15 amWe also know that both of her immediate predecessors (Rice and Powell) maintained their own servers and routed email through them, and that there was no effort to criticize or punish them for it.
Which makes the government records rules bad law. Bad law should be rigorously enforced on everyone so that it gets changed. Instead, we trot it out when we need a club to use and blather about “the Rule of Law.”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:17 amI’m not sure I consider it a risk per se for Trump to possess classified information
For example, in his head.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:19 amNo, because the House has cancelled a vote on contempt.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:21 amhis supporters immediately believe any criticism of him is motivated by animus against them
Huey Long had this kind of following, too.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:23 amI think it is a risk pe se, given his incomprehension of why things need to be kept secret. That Oval Office meeting with Lavrov was an early warning that Trump’s possession of classified information is itself a risk to said information.
It’s darkly amusing now to think back to the time shortly after Obama was elected and he began to get intelligence briefings. Right-wing media outlets were abuzz with sky-is-falling alarm: Who knows what evil forces will soon be getting our nation’s secrets!
But it wasn’t during Obama’s presidency that our foreign intelligence assets started being killed or captured in alarming numbers. It was during the presidency of Donald J. Trump, with his exceedingly great love of America and his innate wisdom for putting America First.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:25 am> When Trumpites speak of “democratic accountability” they mean unquestioning obedience to the Duly Elected President– as long as it’s someone they like.
Bingo.
This is why Trump (and his fanbois) are the biggest threat to the Republic since the civil war.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:26 amCongress needs to create an independent office to conduct contempt investigations and prosecutions. Just as a Democratic administration won’t prosecute Democrats, a Republican administration wouldn’t prosecute Republicans accused of contempt.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:30 amDeSantis: “We have for years witnessed an uneven application of the law depending upon political affiliation.”
As a lawyer, DeSantis….like prosecutors like Hutchinson and Christie, and attorney generals like Barr and Gonzales….should be able to rise above cheap partisanship and recognize the seriousness of the charges and call for Trump to leave the race.
Haley: “The American people are exhausted by the prosecutorial overreach, double standards, and vendetta politics.”
No, we’re exhausted by the lack of leadership in the GOP. This isn’t Jack Smith’s fault. This is all self inflicted by Trump. If the allegations here don’t concern you about the fitness of Trump as being the chief law enforcement officer in the country, then you shouldn’t be running for the office
Charlie Kirk ” [the other candidates] should suspend their campaign and go to Miami as a show of support.”
Dear God…if they do that, they should permanently suspend their campaigns. As always, it comes back to people who aren’t very good…
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:59 amABC News/Ipsos Poll 6/11/23:
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:05 amFor years I have railed about Trump’s lack of interest in learning how government functions, processes, and procedures (including handling classified docs), political philosophies, history, or governance in general. Now I realize it wouldn’t have mattered. He was always going to do whatever he wanted, no matter what he was told. And the scale upon which he measured whether something was permissible has always been a simple one: do I want to do X or not? Ithas never been about the legality of a decision, the ethics of a decision, or the Constitutionality of a decision. It has always been motivated by a childish needs to satisfy himself. He is his utmost concern. Not the American people, not the rule of law, not the Constitution, and certainly not any traditions that have formed the cornerstone of government. I don’t think Americans have ever had such a blunt red-flag cautionary tale on repeat for as long as we’ve had Trump. That his cheap hype and endless lies still hold sway with so many voters is as dismaying as is the possibility of him once again becoming the Republican nominee.
Dana (560c99) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:12 amOuch!
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:17 amMore Ouch!
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:26 amDana, yeah, the impulsiveness weakly checked in a second term, coupled with promises of retribution, ought to frighten the bejesus out of people. Yet, I tend to get these pollyannaish assurances that opportunism and loyalty to country will check Trump’s excesses. I just think this is so wrong and antithetical to conservative instincts. I’m running out of adjectives. It’s like watching an impending freeway multi-car accident in slow motion. Why don’t we want to avoid this. How weak and small have we become?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:28 am“The president has some discretion, but these are official documents. It’s inarguable the President’s daily brief provided by the intelligence community is not Donald J. Trump’s personal document, period,” Barr said.
We are not just talking about love letters from Kim Jong Un. We are talking about our nuclear capabilities and strategic vulnerabilities…and how we strategize battle plans against adversaries. And these weren’t stashed and forgotten, but willfully moved for purpose of evasion, following stalls and lies. DeSantis, Haley, and Scott don’t want to deal with this forthrightly. This IS their reason for running. The fact that they can’t get there is pathetic (OK, I had one more adjective). An ex-president can’t just hold onto these secrets OR, in my opinion, unilaterally…absent any process…declassify things without the defense department and intelligence agencies readying a damage response. It can’t be the way we operate….it just can’t be.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:39 amLately, whenever I feel down on myself — which is usually several times a day — I think “At least I was never deluded about who Trump is.” I recognized the malignant narcissism, and I understood that it was likely to be more dangerous to America than a presidential term of policies I don’t agree with.
Trump’s preemptive rejection of the legitimacy of an election loss followed by his extraordinary efforts to stay in power unlawfully should have disabused the educated apologists who would point to policy decisions they like and say, “See, you were all wrong about him!” But most of them instead parroted his “rigged election!” mantra and echoed his view that any system that goes against Trump is corrupt.
It’s mostly the same when we have abundant evidence that he willfully, repeatedly defied the law regarding national-security secrets and even casually exposed them to people not authorized to see or hear them. From his own mouth we get the sociopathic “It’s All Mine!!” rationale, along with a variety of absurd and self-contradictory excuses. But the elite thinkers of MAGA-land dig deeper into their self-delusion and cling to the idea that they were always right in seeing an honest and wise super-patriot beneath the unpolished “style,” while his critics were all revealing themselves to be Deep State hacks and traitors.
Actually, Never Trump was always right.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:54 amRadegunda (16fcbd) — 6/10/2023 @ 6:14 pm
I don’t think Trump can believe that, although he could come up with an argument as to how, if Ukraine is not handled correctly, it could lead to World War III – at least Putin sometimes pretends it could. And he can claim he’s the only one who has insight into what can avoid triggering it, or he is the only one who would follow the particular policy or approach he would. Nobody is going to get into the details.
In reality, he has to think, it’s not likely, especially after more than a year of war.
Oh, he could say, I can’t describe it – it’s like identifying people or planes. It’s not something that can be taught, except by example, and then the other person has to catch on. But he’s just making empty claims.
I don’t know how many people who cheer are actually paying any attention to what he says. They are just cheering him on on the basis that he has the right assumptions.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:06 pmHe didn’t do that.
In the only two instances cited in the indictment, he basically tells people that he has something in his hand and he wishes he could show it to them, but he can’t. “It’s secret” or “Don’t look too closely at the map” (of Afghanistan??)
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:15 pmWaktine (Walt) Nauta was indicted because he lied to investigators (maybe contradicting himself or saying he didn’t know ehether he moved boxes) and later wouldn’t co-operate.
But I don’t think he knew that the reason Trump ordered him to take boxes out of the storage room was to hide them from his lawyers (and subsequently the FBI etc)
There’s a text message exchange with Melania in which she tells himm that there won’t be enough room on the plane to take them all with them to Bedminster, New Jersey and he says that he thinks that Donald Trump only wants to go looking through them and pick things out, (on second thought maybe he did know why Trump wanted to search them. That would necessitate Nauta knowing the reason for all this.)
This was on Memorial Day 2022, [Happy Memorial Day, Melania texts him] shortly before Trump planned to leave Mar-a-Lago for the summer and also before Corcoran was going to do a diligent search and people from the government were going to come…
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:33 pmOnce again, we have the “Trump didn’t really mean the insane things he said” parsing.
When Trump says the same ridiculous or plainly counterfactual thing repeatedly, who knows whether, deep down, he really, truly believes it? The salient point is that he believes it’s rational to SAY things that are plainly ludicrous or false.
When he said “Nobody reads the Bible more than me,” did he really believe it? Which means he’s completely divorced from reality. Or did he just think “This sounds good, so I’ll say it even though I haven’t opened a Bible in decades”? Which means he’s comfortable with being grossly mendacious.
Take your pick.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:39 pmTBH, it’s probably both.
No,, she didn’t.
She did everything orally, without leaving any kind of a record. There’s nothing for instance about her reaction to the “talking points” on Benghazi.
She acted through her top aides,
There are some classified transcripts of conversation with foreign officials.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:47 pmThe tapes don’t confirm that no information was divulged to others. Showing someone a document and saying “don’t get too close” is certainly getting up to the line, if not over it.
We also have the incident of Trump showing something to Kid Rock, who thought “Whoa, should I be seeing this?”
And the incident with Lavrov.
And that’s only what we have evidence of. But there’s no doubt that intelligence briefers (and some White House aides) were concerned about what Trump might carelessly spill.
There’s also the fact that our foreign intelligence assets were at extraordinary risk after Trump got into power.
And there’s Trump’s open claim, to Hannity, that he had the right to show anything to anyone he wanted.
The weight of the evidence says:
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:50 pmTrump doesn’t really comprehend the imperative of keeping things secret.
Trump’s extreme narcissism makes him think he should be able to do whatever he wants with impunity.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:39 pm
Yes, yes. I believe Trump lies, but he’s not insane.
Believing it is rational to SAY some things might be a lower form of insanity, though.
Of course not.
lie.
The second, except he may have a bad (or perhaps overoptimistic) opinion of what lies are plausible.
He rarely tells a lie that somebody else has not said before.
And some lies, I feel, he just feels locked into into.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:55 pmSometimes he takes out lies for a test drive, and then drops them without anyone remembering that he said it.
Like the time he said in a Republican presidential debate in 2015 (it passed muster with Marco Rubio and CArly Fiorina but it got caught online) that he got to know Vladimir Putim very well because they were once on the same episode of 60 Minutes, (60 Minutes is not live)
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 12:58 pmNo way Trump could ever have believed, not only that he won the 2020 election, but that everybody believed that! Which he said more than once..
He’s not crazy, Or he’s only a lesser degree of crazy, in believing, not his untruthful statements, but that (enough) other people will.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 1:03 pmOh wow. So that makes it okay then?
Poor Donald just can’t help lying. We must pity him, not condemn him!
If Trump is just so hopelessly locked into chronic lying, let’s not make in president again.
Radegunda (7ee118) — 6/11/2023 @ 1:11 pmNJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:18 am
Since when do you believe that Joe Biden tells the truth?
HE LIED about getting the prosecutor fired.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 1:12 pmAnd Hunter Biden was put on the board in order to convince people in Ukraine that the fix was in because they would think the U.S would prevent an investigation of Burisma.
And the ultimate notional recipient of the bribe has to been Obama. not thee vice president,
Except that Obama was not running a political machine.
Sammy Finkelman (840213) — 6/11/2023 @ 1:16 pmIn other news:
Ted Kaczinksi (the Unabomber) commits suicide early Saturday after midnight in Butner, North Carolina medical prison (possibly because of failing health)
Vigilantes in Haiti murder gang members terrorizing the population starting April 24.
Massive arrests and civil liberties violation in El Salvador end MS-13 terror
Presidential candidate removed from ballot in Guatemala
Ethnic war probably instigated by BJP in northern India.
Sammy Finkelman (1c1935) — 6/11/2023 @ 3:07 pmRelated:
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/11/2023 @ 4:05 pmYes, he did do that, Sammy. Read the indictment, specifically Item 6, which starts like this…
Then go to Items 34 and 35 for more detail.
I recommend that anyone who wants to talk about the prosecution to please read the indictment.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 4:38 pmRegarding Kaczynski…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 4:43 pmMike Martin on the UKR counteroffensive. We may be hearing more about Tokmak, a Russian-occupied rail hub which may not be Russian-occupied much longer.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 5:22 pmAlso, Putin just nationalized all Russian private military contractors, which may or may not include the Wagner Group. Shoigu wins.
The reason I’m not optimistic about getting to the bottom of the Hunter Biden/Joe Biden mess in Ukraine is that the Secret Service has gone out of its way in the past to tidy up after the Biden’s. Hunter Biden said the Secret Service went to pick up his gun from a trash can across from a school and the Secret Service said it must have been done as a favor (or by off duty Secret Service) Someone(s) who identified themselves as Secret Service went to the gun shop where Hunter bought the gun and asked for the paperwork. Again it could have been off duty Secret Service who were not above flashing credentials. This goes well beyond the scope of their mission. So we have two first hand accounts of people running interference for the Biden’s, one from Hunter himself, and the second from the gun shop owner.
steveg (083148) — 6/11/2023 @ 5:33 pmThere’s a PGA-LIV metaphor in there somewhere between the security guard and the PGA winner cracking open a bottle of bubbly.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/11/2023 @ 6:35 pmThis is why Trump (and his fanbois) are the biggest threat to the Republic since the civil war.
I doubt it. At least as far as the long-term is considered. Trump’s power is diminishing, soon to be gone. He will spend the rest of his life surrounded by defense lawyers and such of his rubes as he can tolerate.
The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it. Once he doesn’t get the nomination, and finds himself beholden to whoever does get it for his future, his obit can be written.
The nation has been saved numerous times. Lincoln. Wilson’s stroke. Huey Long’s assassination. Even FDR’s decent into Socialism was stopped abruptly by war.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:04 pmNo, we’re exhausted by the lack of leadership in the GOP. This isn’t Jack Smith’s fault. This is all self inflicted by Trump. If the allegations here don’t concern you about the fitness of Trump as being the chief law enforcement officer in the country, then you shouldn’t be running for the office
You’ve got mart of this right — it’s inflicted by Trump.
But I’m pretty sure they are all concerned. They just freeze whenever they remember that without MAGA Republicans they don’t have the votes to win. It’s like a business hit by a strike by the Teamsters. Sure they can try to run with other employees, but it’s not sustainable. Or very safe.
The Democrats may play all holier-than-thou, but they don’t need (and can’t get) the MAGA votes. If they thought they could they’d be nicer to Trump. So, that’s not principle they are standing on, it’s a sign that says “try not to laugh.”
Really the only was to get past this is for Trump to give up. I wish that this had been Judge Sirica, not Judge Judy.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:12 pmQuestion: Except for Ratsaswarmy, has any candidate actually supported Trump’s actions, or called for the charges to be dropped. No, They are instead talking about the bias inherent in the DoJ at the top, and in the entire bureaucracy in general.
THIS DOES NOT HELP TRUMP.
Instead, it give the impression of siding with Trump when they are doing nothing of the sort. Instead they are scoring points for their side, bankable by whoever the nominee is.
Trump is left slowly twisting in the wind. An outcome I favor.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:18 pmJust made my first political contribution in while. $1 to get Chris Christie on the debate stage.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:18 pm“The GOP has no way forward with Trump, and they are finally becoming aware of it.”
We haven’t seen the evidence yet. We now have sworn representatives talking about war
Andy Biggs: “We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye.”
DeSantis, Haley, and Scott can’t quite bring themselves to declare that Trump is a dead end of losing and that he’s too unstable to effectively lead. The GOP has made Trump into a symbol. If none of the candidates seem to be able to move on, how do we expect the people? They will keep following loser narratives because they’ve been conditioned to do so. People love conspiracies and blaming the other tribe. I expect an awful 17months.
AJ_Liberty (d80aac) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:19 pmI don’t see any signs of them becoming aware of this. Given how the House members responded to the indictment, it doesn’t seem likely.
Dana (560c99) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:25 pmKevin M – I think at this point if Trump goes down for this, his fall becomes the Dolchstosslegende that justifies the next generation of angry attempts to overthrow the Republic.
aphrael (087fb1) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:32 pmThe don’t really want to overthrow the Republic, they want to save it. See the difference?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:37 pmGiven how the House members responded to the indictment
The half-dozen usual suspects? Which of them argued that Trump was acting rightly?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:39 pmAs long as we are looking at politicians and their principles, tell me how many Democrats voted for Bill Clinton to be impeached for perjury. Their votes were recorded, you know.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:40 pmAndy Biggs: “We have now reached a war phase. Eye for an eye.”
Please, can we stop pretending that these Klansmen represent the GOP? They aren’t even the horse’s ass, they are the stuff hanging out of the horse’s ass.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:42 pmToo funny! 😂
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:48 pmThe part agree with; the second assumes facts not in evidence.
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:51 pmWe hear hyperbole all the time, from both sides. But if you peruse the indictment and think about the facts of the situation, it’s kind of chilling. There’s something pathologically wrong with Trump.
What responsible leader would take and actively keep from being retrieved highly classified documents “regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack.”? He doesn’t grasp that nuclear secrets aren’t HIS secrets, and he doesn’t get to play keep-away because he bizarrely likes to flaunt them to visitors.
And the fact that this information was in storerooms, the bathroom, and banquet halls makes me wonder, what was he thinking? What kind of legal advice was he getting and why weren’t his closest advisors/associates helping him understand how he NEEDED to resolve this. Again, there’s something wrong with this guy…and there’s something wrong that the GOP’s leaders can only talk about “prosecutorial overreach” and “double standards”. This perpetuates the problem with the basem, because they could look and say “Hey, DeSantis, Haley, and Scott” aren’t calling for him to drop out. They’re not saying this is a serious problem. They’re blaming the prosecutor!”
They’re not clearing him but they are providing cover. How is it not the message that the base is getting?
AJ_Liberty (d80aac) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:53 pmCorrect me if I am wrong, but didn’t you argue at one point that George Santos shouldn’t be forced out because he was elected to represent his constituents?
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:59 pmWhat an interesting coincidence. Trump calls on his trumpsters to strike back and a fuel tanker truck just happens to catch fire under the I-95 bridge bringing east coast traffic to a halt in liberal democrat north east. I wonder what “other” coincidences we will see next?
asset (af23c0) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:59 pmPeople like Biggs, Gaetz, Boebert, MTG et. al do represent a powerful faction of the Republican Party. Just ask Speaker McCarthy.
Rip Murdock (6f4bcc) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:03 pm@153 far to many lgbtq people have been killed by so called christians acting out the bible. At least the blue jays didn’t tie him to a fence and set him on fire. Rememberthe pulce and other gay places.
asset (af23c0) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:06 pmCorrect me if I am wrong, but didn’t you argue at one point that George Santos shouldn’t be forced out because he was elected to represent his constituents?
You are wrong. He was a fraud. I may have made that statement about MTG (or AOC). Klansmen can still vote and are entitled to reps. They just don’t speak for the entire party.
(And before asset objects, AOC is indeed a klansman, just as Antifa is the Klan).
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:09 pmAt least the blue jays didn’t tie him to a fence and set him on fire.
There are so so many instances that you can only think of one that’s, what, 20 years old? 30?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:10 pm@162 Why? then trumpsters couldn’t snick on the jury and trying to keep them off could lead to mistrial or worse. Also obscure person could becoe famous for hung jury. Floriduh or D.C. jury pool.
asset (af23c0) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:11 pmJust ask Speaker McCarthy.
Any group with five votes can get him out of bed at 4AM. What a terrible wet noodle he is. If he had a pair, he would pick someone and expel them. OF course the Dems would leave him hanging. What a schmuck.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:15 pmIn the movie mcclintock the wealthy villain says mr. mcclintock (john 4-f in ww II wayne) is a man who respects the law I am a man who buys it! Economic libertarian conservatives which most of you are like bill buckley depend on respect for the law and democratic norms such as follow the golden rule: those with the gold rule! Otherwise your ideological house of cards comes tumbling down when met by brute force from populists and the left. The left developed the communist cell to take heavy casulties and keep on fighting asking people to try and hold out for 24 hours un torture. Both the trump populists and the left consider non-violence a tactic to be used when useful not a basic tenet of our ideology like libertarian economic capitalism does. As lenin said the capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them.
asset (af23c0) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:48 pm@247 I can google plenty more like 2022 detroit man convicted of killing two gays. If you want more google it. You didn’t mention pulse or other gay places where gays were massacred.
asset (af23c0) — 6/11/2023 @ 8:58 pmWas the Detroit case the one where blood seeped out of the walls?
steveg (4db6f7) — 6/11/2023 @ 9:44 pm@250.
Your endorsement of violence to resolve political disagreement is contemptible. It’s no surprise you consider your leftist brethren comparable to the Trumpists waving to you from the other tip of the horseshoe. Your means are equally lawless and anti-American.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:00 pmAccording the the FBI, the Pulse shooter was unaware that the Pulse nightclub was a gay bar.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:04 pmSome gay men and transexuals engage in some of the riskiest sexual behaviors. Not justifying the violence in any way, but I do wish they’d be more careful.
steveg (4db6f7) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:21 pmKevin, can you link to where the FBI said he didn’t know it was a gay club? I hadn’t seen that but would be interested in knowing that’s true.
Nate (1f1d55) — 6/11/2023 @ 10:30 pmhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-evidence-so-far-to-suggest-orlando-shooter-targeted-club-because-it-was-gay/2016/07/14/a7528674-4907-11e6-acbc-4d4870a079da_story.html
Other sources that say similar things point out that the shooters first choice was Disney World where he was on video turning around and leaving when he saw the security, there was no cell phone or security video found of the shooter visiting Pulse in the months before the shooting (even though some guy claimed he’d seen the shooter there before, no proof of that was ever found). They said that the shooter googled “nightclubs” not “gay nightclubs” and Pulse came up as the number #1. So it may not be 100% correct to say that the shooter did not know it was a gay nightclub at any point before he died, but there was plenty of evidence that showed he’d not searched for a gay club.
If you want to dig into it, go into the trial of the wife in 2018. The FBI had 2 years to investigate the crime and the hype had died down by then (although it is still considered heresy to point out the facts). I believe that it was during the prosecution of the wife in 2018 that brought up that the Pulse was not chosen because it was a gay nightclub
steveg (4db6f7) — 6/11/2023 @ 11:38 pmNate: FBI has found no evidence that Orlando shooter targeted Pulse because it was a gay club (WaPo free link)
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:11 amSo, will Trump’s troops show up at the Miami courthouse and go all J6 on it? Unlike DC, Florida is “constitutional carry.”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:21 amThe thing I took away from Pulse nightclub was that the guy was a radicalized militant Islamist, so it was a terrorist attack on American soil. Whether gay bar or no, still a terrorist attack, with lots of Allahu Akhbars thrown in.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:28 amI can’t remember what happened to the wife, but her hands weren’t clean.
@253 Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolution inevitable. JFK. is he contemptable? Patrick henry? Rosa parks was committing a lawless act when she refused to give up her bus seat to a white man. John brown was committing a lawless act when he tried to free the slaves. The americans at lexington green were committing a lawless act when they faced the red coats. The anti-war and black lives protesters were committing a lawless act when they sat down in the streets. Were both populists Bernie/trump. And like violence were american as cherry pie! H. rap brown.
asset (af23c0) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:13 amDoes the f.b.i. speak for the guy who attacked the pulse ;however that is only one and their have been many attacks. Who would believe the f.b.i. anyway? I never did in 74 years and you conservatives used to worship j. edgar hoover.
asset (af23c0) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:17 am@261. Yup, if there’s one thing you, the J6 insurrectionists, and the recently departed Unibomber agree on, it’s that the ends justify the means. And how dare you claim Rosa Parks as an exemplar of your violent project? Her act of civil disobedience and acceptance of the punishment that inevitably followed were the opposite of violent protest.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:26 amthe supporters of mr. former president donald trump, who can do a full-head comb-over with fewer hairs than any sitting president in the history of america, are people of high moral values and strict sensibilities
that is well known
that is why they criticize those icky transies and gaysies
because they, themselves, are like, you know, good
nk (9ef280) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:32 amlurker: “Your means are equally lawless and anti-American.”
Yes, asset’s subtle and not-so-subtle embrace of violence….as he places everyone in tidy little ideological boxes…is indeed contemptible. Rationalizing and encouraging violence to secure political ends and then using Rosa Parks and JFK to defend it is confused reasoning. Encouraging minorities to arm and kill people for revolution is disgusting. I get that like DCSCA he comes here to push buttons and get reactions….and so I generally ignore his stuff because it IS lawless and un-American…but I would hate for one person to be pushed to violence because of it….
AJ_Liberty (d80aac) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:57 amyes, yes, mr. asset should dream of embracing ms. aoc, not violence
but not regale with dreams, either
please
nk (6c45b4) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:56 amthat is what i like about mr. former president donald trump, who never has a second cup of coffee at home, honestly
his final battle will be pointing at armageddon (it’s a mountain you know) and saying that trump tower is taller
nk (6c45b4) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:01 ambut not regale with *those* dreams, either
nk (6c45b4) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:02 amYou know what the real horror about a second Trump term is? We’ve forgotten already.
It’s THIS. The constant and overwhelming presence he carves out of our lives through his need for all the oxygen in the country. Every day we will be listening to some Tweetstorm, or dealing with yet another nutbar executive order, or someone else screaming about what the Orange Man did.
Eventually, we will have no choice but to elect enough Democrat Senators to convict him in one of his several impeachments. Not that it would be without consequence.
Pray for the Secret Service, whose job it is to stand between Trump and bullets.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:13 amI find it relatively easy to escape all of that. Unless I read the comments here where it is an obsession.
Plant a garden. Relax.
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:37 am@269, it’s true. The GOP should have a lot to talk about in terms of inflation, immigration, crime, Afghanistan, and spending (I know, ha ha ha). And yet, the GOP is held hostage to talk about stolen elections and questionably-tedious rationalizations about prosecutorial overreach. And it won’t stop…Georgia, J6 will consume more of our national dialogue and make us smaller and smaller. Putin continues to win the longer game. This is why we can’t elect people for highest office with serious character defects. The solution SHOULD have been impeachment. Now we are stuck with this spectacle because Lindsey Graham et al wouldn’t do their constitutional duty….twice. Shame on them.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:38 amRIP, Silvio Berlusconi, 86.
More like this, God.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:45 amFor Christie fans, he’s doing a CNN Townhall tonight at 8ET.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:19 amSo when do we bring Fauci, Daszak and otyers up on charges for lying under oath and buoweapons research with a foreign power? When do we hold China accountable for their unsafe bioweapons research that killed millions?
NJRob (5a0774) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:29 amWhen do we hold China accountable for their unsafe bioweapons research that killed millions?
We do now, if you count “we” as meaning individual purchasing decisions and not government mandates.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:36 amYou realize how this makes you sound, right?
NJRob (5a0774) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:40 amApparently fire CAN melt steel.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:41 amYou realize how this makes you sound, right?
Sane?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:42 amSo not an act of war?
How about Fauci, Daszak and the rest? How about the media and government with their dleiberate lies and gaslighting?
NJRob (5a0774) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:48 amSo not an act of war?
Do you advocate war with China?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:56 amHow about Fauci, Daszak and the rest? How about the media and government with their deliberate lies and gaslighting?
Well, Trump was president when all that happened, so let’s charge him with all that, too. Good idea!
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:57 amStill is.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:00 amRe: #272, Kevin M.,
Not quite R.I.H., but surprising, though to be fair, I wouldn’t mind a 90 year anniversary reprise of Anton Cermak, given similar locale to tomorrow’s doings.
urbanleftbehind (eabb21) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:02 amToo bad it requires a 2/3 majority to expel (Article 1, Section 5, Clause 2). Interesting factoid, all five of the House members that have been expelled have been Democrats; three for supporting the Confederacy and two (Michael Myers and James Traficant) after criminal convictions.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:07 amKevin,
Is there any way to discuss something without you bringing Trump into the equation?
An act of war by China that killed millions and devastated the world’s economy deserves a response. The coverup and deliberate lies by those who were covering for their criminal acts deserves a response.
The coverup is wworse than the crime.
NJRob (5a0774) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:14 amThe Trump Indictment’s Silver Lining:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:43 amAnton Cermak
I doubt that Trump will ride in an open limo. Pretty sure the Secret Service would be against it.
BTW, in Phil Dick’s “The Man in the High Castle” it’s FDR, not Cermak, who dies.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:52 amIs there any way to discuss something without you bringing Trump into the equation?
Says the king of whaddabouts, trying not to discuss the guy he’s whaddabouting to defend.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:54 am……..(T)he (Justice Department) may, as they often do, take the more conservative approach to recusal. If so, they may instead wait for the judge to overstep once more and at that point ask her, and if she refuses, ask the 11th Circuit to act. ………
This has to be looked at in how it serves DoJ’s goal of a speedy trial, preferably this year. They could hold this in abeyance and see how it goes. If the judge is giving Trump his desired delays, or allowing Trump to delay with specious motions, or throwing out evidence, then they bite the bullet and try to force recusal.
If, otoh, the judge plays it straight and gives them a trial date in, say, October 2023 and doesn’t allow Trump’s lawyers to be vexatious with motions, then it’s all good.
After all, any prison term is the same as any other prison term for Trump. So sentencing is not a worry; even at the low end of the range, it’s enough.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:03 amIs it confirmed that the virus was created in the Wuhan lab?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:07 amIs it confirmed that the virus was purposely released?
Highly unlikely.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:07 amTrumpWorld Keeping It Classy II:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:20 amFirst the trial, then the appeals. Trump may want multiple bites at every apple, but his real goal is delay since they have him nailed to the wall.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:23 amTrumpWorld Keeping It Classy II:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:25 amAs the article outlined, there is no way a trial will start this year. The first step is that Trump’s lawyers need to get security clearances. Can they?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:26 amTrumpWorld Keeping It Classy III:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:42 amJudge Cannon may have just made a bad ruling on the special master. Meaning, she might be a poor judge, not a corrupt one. This is the case of her life. All eyes will be on her and her rulings. I doubt that she will try to curry favor with Trump. She may even bend a bit in the other direction. If her rulings are appallingly bad, Smith can appeal to the 11th to remove her. The problem is whether running this drama out would give Trump the delay he needs. Still, I doubt Trump wins in November if against all odds he remains the GOP frontrunner. I have faith in enough Americans doing the right thing.
As to Rob, the Chinese, and the pandemic, the problem with authoritarian closed societies is that it’s near impossible to pull the truth out of them. As Paul notes, there’s just not enough persuasive evidence to know the truth on the origin of the virus. And, the Chinese will never cop to a purposeful release as the consequences would be stark. Fauci was guilty of not hiring a good PR firm and having a press secretary. Trump could have demoted him or appointed a different spokesman for the pandemic response. He didn’t, likely because he knew he could use Fauci as his all-purpose fall guy. I’m not sure why one would trust Trump over Fauci with respect to pandemic analysis or response. Now if it was a pandemic game show, go with Trump.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:46 amNote:
Wishng for a prompt end to Trump is tempting karma. It’s best we don’t. Plus, if the American people are not better than pushing ths guy into the Presidency, we may deserve what we get. The main problem with Trump the candidate is that the whole right side of spectrum ends up wedded to his drama and grievances rather than, you know, the issues (like immigration, for example)
Appalled (03f53c) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:49 amThe first step is that Trump’s lawyers need to get security clearances. Can they?
Not the court’s problem. Trump can hire someone who has a clearance. He can’t say “Oh, I cannot defend myself because they won’t give my lawyers clearances.” IF he could, then there would be no trial possible, or the prosecution would have to drop some of the charges. Which cannot be the rule.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:50 amDoes the judge have a clearance? Does an alternative judge have a clearance?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:51 amWishng for a prompt end to Trump is tempting karma.
What goes around doesn’t come around to those not doing the same things.
We may deserve what we get
A second Trump term would be a singularity, but not the Singularity we were expecting.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:54 am@286
As much as I would rather a different judge here, as I want him so damaged that he drops out…
“She ruled for this party in the past and was overturned” is simply not a basis for recusal. That happens all the time.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:57 am@300
Yes, they can be “read in” when it pertains to the case.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:59 amAJ, I’d say Judge Cannon’s decision was worse than a “bad ruling”, because she crossed into unethical territory when the 11th Circuit stated that “the district court abused its discretion”.
Also, per Rip’s link, 28 USC § 455(a) states that a judge “shall disqualify himself [or herself] in any proceeding in which his [or her] impartiality might reasonably be questioned”. Her decision was so off-the-charts off-base in favor of Trump that, IMO, any reasonable person would reasonably question her impartiality.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:04 amI remember when we started a war even though our intelligence community didn’t confirm or establish that a dictator actually had WMDs, and it was one of our worst foreign policy decisions in the last century.
Please tell me that the Lessons of Iraq have been learned.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:25 am@304, I’m pretty sure that’s it’s on Cannon to recuse. I’m uncomfortable saying that one bad ruling…albeit with the very conservative 11th circuit swatting it down with authority….is sufficient to pre-emptively remove Cannon. She created an exception in the law; she shouldn’t have. Does that show error or does that show bias? If she has a conspicuous trail of error after error, then she should probably be impeached for incompetence. I’m not sure that is the case here. I’m also unsure that one reversal, however high profile, shows that she is incompetent. Is there evidence that she is biased in favor of Trump? Simply getting nominated by Trump is not sufficient evidence of bias because there’s only a couple people who could have appointed her. If it had been an Obama-appointed judge selected for the case, then the Trump team could claim bias. The Congress voted her through with 12 votes (I believe) from the Democrat side. She doesn’t sound controversial. Personally, I would want her to recuse to take any appearance of bias out of play. Knowing human nature and this being the trial of the century, I don’t see it happening….
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:45 amAJ,
Did you read the London Times article? They wrapped it in a bow and gave conclusive circumstantal evidence beyond a rrasonable doubt as to the virus’s development and release from a Chinese lab.
The coverup continues.
NJRob (a67772) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:50 amIt’s not fear of revolution that should keep people away from the pro-Trump protesters at the Miami federal courthouse tomorrow. It’s the smell.
nk (a74041) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:03 pm@307
The silver-lining of having a Trump appointed Judge oversee this case, is that if it goes against him, he can’t argue that it was rigged.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:09 pmWhat might happen with Cannon is that Trump’s lawyers, in their Trump-like way, might try to suppress the same documents that were the subject of the prior case in a new motion, and that Cannon might rule in their favor again.
In which case, the Eleventh Circuit, after reversing her again, might say if not in so many words, “dis bish don learn” and remand the case to a new judge on its own motion.
nk (89fd00) — 6/12/2023 @ 12:43 pmAs is having an 11th Circuit panel of Trump or other Republican-appointed judges deny his appeals, such as when Judge Cannon’s special master ruling was overturned.
In fact, of the 12 active judges on the 11th Circuit, 5 were appointed by Democratic Presidents, 7 by Republicans, of which 6 were appointed by Donald Trump. The odds seem pretty good that any appeals panel will have a majority of Trump appointees.
Of the 9 Senior Circuit Judges, 5 were appointed by Republicans.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:03 pmIf McCarthy won’t move to expel Santos until after the Ethics Committee investigates (thwarting a Democratic resolution to expel him) and his criminal trial, then he is not going expel anyone for their extremist views, especially since it would cut into his majority. If he moved to expel Biggs, you can bet there would be a motion to vacate the chair proposed by someone the Freedom Caucus.
With the change in House rules it only requires only one Member of the House to propose such a motion, not five.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:26 pmBut it was an exceptional case, both in the laws that applied and in the quantity of documents seized. The government did voluntarily return to Trump some pictures, I think.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:30 pm232:
He’s referring to war, metaphorically, as in the word “lawfare”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare
An Eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and an indictment and prosecution for an indictment and and a prosecution.
What else could it mean??
Has any physical violence been visited upon Donald Trump?
Of course, what Andy Biggs is calling for is basically corrupt, but that’s all it is. It’s outrageous enough, without misinterpreting it.
Of course, unless he means Republican state prosecutors, there is no political prosecution that can be brought against Biden, but Biggs is thinking more long term — 2025 and later.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:36 pmI have read excerpts from the indictment, but the full text seems mostly to available in hard to use Scribd, and sometimes as a PDF, not easy to look through in later versions of Windows. (it loads it in Adobe Acrobat)
I’d like it online.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:40 pmI figured out how to access the Times piece, and I’ll go back to my questions.
Is it confirmed that the virus was created in the Wuhan lab?
Pretty close. I’m more comfortable saying that it’s more likely than not that the virus was created in that Wuhan lab, and they used some of our technology to do it. There was a long article from 2-3 years ago (I can’t find it, but I linked to it from here) that discussed furin cleavage and how well it attached to human cells.
Is it confirmed that the virus was purposely released?
Not according the Times piece.
Also, as inhumane as the Xi regime is to its own people, it would be extraordinary for the ChiComs to infect their own people and risk indiscriminately killing off perhaps millions of fellow citizens. We still have no idea how many Chinese have been infect and died, because Xi has put a lid on that information, which tells me they’re still trying to conceal their cockup from the populace.
Also, a nation intent on spreading a dangerous man-made virus would’ve developed a vaccine prior to its release to protect their own people. But, by most accounts, the vaccines the ChiComs have created generally suck. Just ask the Brazilians.
Based on that, I don’t consider the Xi’s regimes actions to be an act of war on the US and the world because I don’t see evidence of a deliberate attack; however, but I do consider them hostile to American interests and our policy toward them should reflect that. It would be in our best interests to
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 1:49 pm(1) join TPP,
(2) push for a phased divesting from their economy,
(3) reinforce our military alliances with Australia, Asian democracies and India,
(4) speaking of India, how about massively expanding trade with them. They just surpassed China population-wise,
(5) sanction and penalize Chinese companies that are cheating, pirating and dumping,
(6) seek other avenues for rare-earth minerals,
(7) help Ukraine reclaim all its conquered territory, because f-ck Putin and f-ck Russia,
(8) our government should push for a strong domestically constructed 5G network (and other significant technologies) to lessen our dependency on the ChiComs,
(9) TBD
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:46 am
You could think of a scenario in which he wins in a 3-way race, but that’s unlikely.
I’d like to see him not being one of the top 3 choices in the Electoral College, just for the humiliation. The House won’t pick him.
Best scenario, maybe:
Third party ticket with different candidates for president in different states, but the same one for vice president, maybe Doug Burgum, who is rich enough to mostly self finance the ticket. Presidential candidate in each state should be somebody who is polling no lower than second in that state.
Since only 3 candidates can make it into the House that will create a real incentive to vote for a third party candidate (so that he will beat other third party candidates in the Electoral vote and get into the House.)
This will make a complete mess of the popular vote, but the American presidential election system as it actually working now, deserves that.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:08 pmAJ_Liberty continued:
They won’t cop to an unintentional release (because compensation might be demanded by some, if for no other reason, but they don’t need that reason)
Especially if, as I suspect, there were two leaks of somewhat different versions of the virus.
The first one in the month before September 12, 2019, (when the Wuhan Institute of Virology database of bat viruses was taken offline) of a mostly containable version; and the second on December 2, 2019 when the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention was moved to a new location about 300 yards from the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale
Market.
The biggest or most critical lie of China about the virus is which of the two initial strains of the virus – the “L” strain or the “S” strain – came first. (One is not a direct ancestor of the other)
That’s why they wanted to collect and destroy all early samples, and they are still hiding any early samples.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-identified-strains-covid-19/story?id=69391954
The “S” strain came first. It was milder, and spread further in the beginning but died out.
It reached the United States first It could not have spread further in China and elsewhere if it was not first. This ABC article considers the beginning of the outbreak as occurting in December. but it really started earlier.
I think everything besides omicron has by now gone practically extinct That’s why the vaccine if half ineffective but the FDA is back to slow walking everything. And the best treatment, continually changing monoclonal antibodies – which cured Trump – seems to be no longer being used. They become ineffective because, probably for reasons of avoiding side effects, they use only one or two antibodies instead of at least four different ones (too many to mutate around).
They’re not writing major news stories about Covid any more.
Incidentally, one Covid story I did hear (on the radio) the other day is that the diabetic drug metformin seems to be good in preventing the chances of long Covid developing.
That’s because it is an anti-aging pill. (which I think researchers and many doctors are too scared to say much about, but there’s plenty evidence that it is.)
https://fortune.com/well/2023/05/04/metformin-anti-aging-longevity-risks-side-effects
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:22 pmSF: Trump lately said they were declassified automatically – i.e. without him knowing it.
51. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:51 pm
Initially, of course, he thought they were still classified.
Then later, I think after the search warrant, he came up with the idea that he might have declassified them. Of course he could not point to any time or place. His lawyers did not raise the claim that he had declassified them in court. Then he said he could have declassified them in his mind.
The latest was saying they were declassified automatically (presumably by sending them to Mar-a-Lago and treating them like they were declassified)
In any case the prosecutor avoided all such arguments by not indicting him for mishandling classified information.
He said that after the search warrant, Sammy. When he thought he was getting away with it, he had a different story.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:51 pm
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:29 pmLOL, yes he can! Given the number of judges appointed by Trump who ruled against his “rigged” election claims, I doubt it will make a difference. The 13 federal cases saw votes by 12 Trump appointees, none of them favorable to Trump.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:33 pmEven with that record, Trump is still claiming a “rigged” election-and the record is even worse when you include state courts!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:36 pmOops, extra line
287.
If you read it closely, he didn’t actually show it to anyone so they could read it and the same thing for the map
It could be it got returned and isn’t recognized, but it also could be that Trump was scared for it to be found in his possession and destroyed some highly sensitive documents.
He told his lawyer that Hillary Clinton’s lawyers had deleted things and nothing happened to them so why can’t he?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12179661/Trump-PRAISED-attorney-deleted-30-000-Hillary-emails.html
But Hillary Clinton’s lawyers were used to breaking the law.
Williams & Connolly was the chief law firm for organized crime. (it’s not surprising that Bill and Hillary Clinton used it, because Bill Clinton came out of the political machine that was run by one of the top three Founders of organized crime in America: Owen incent (Owney the Killer) Madden political boss of Hot Springs Arkansas approximately 1935-1948 and 1951-1965. Bill Clinton’s step-uncle , Raymond Clinton, was an important member of the machine. They may also have controlled Hope, Arkansas, where many people associated with the machine self-exiled after 1948.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:43 pmI don’t think Trump would want to alienate the judge by accusing her of being biased..
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:44 pm> You could think of a scenario in which he wins in a 3-way race, but that’s unlikely.
Why do you think that’s unlikely? If nobody gets an electoral college majority, then the House decides — with each state delegation getting one vote.
Given the cowardice of the House Republican caucus, isn’t this a lock for Trump?
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:52 pm> Incidentally, one Covid story I did hear (on the radio) the other day is that the diabetic drug metformin seems to be good in preventing the chances of long Covid developing.
I’m taking it as a long Covid prophylactic (i tested positive ten days ago while still suffering from acute bronchitis), and … my intestines *loathe* it
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:54 pmLolol. Thanks. I needed that. You know who else will be amused to find out that appointment by Donald inoculates you from charges that you’re a deep state traitor who was plotting against him all along? Sessions, Barr, Bolton, Tillerson, Kelly, McMaster, Cohn, Scaramucci, Mattis, Esper, Milley, Ray, McGahn, Pence….
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/12/2023 @ 2:55 pmIn Cannon’s case, he doesn’t need to.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:02 pmUh… huh:
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:21 pmhttps://www.foxnews.com/politics/grassley-burisma-executive-who-allegedly-paid-biden-has-audio-recordings-of-conversations-with-joe-hunter
Release the tapes!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:24 pmAnother fact-free statement from Grassley, much like Comer’s statement that the FBI is investigating Biden for bribery. FD-1023 reports are about as accurate as the VAERS database.
Grassley and Comer need to put up or shut up by conducting hearings with public testimony.
What are they afraid of?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:31 pm@330
It seems that it’s alleged that the Burisma executive has these tapes.
Not clear if the FBI has the actual tapes.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:38 pmUh-huh. Or they may not exist at all.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:40 pm@331
There’s two issue here though…
#1 Is the allegation itself. Is it credible? *Can* congress get these tapes?
#2 What did the FBI actually do with this information? Was investigative resources allocated to conduct thorough investigation?
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:41 pmMy question is:
Was there ever a time before this when the Ranking Member of the Senate Budget Committee and the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee conducted themselves like the National Enquirer?
nk (aeade6) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:58 pmIt must be, or responsible members of Congress wouldn’t be issuing press releases about it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 3:59 pm@336 It’s oddly specific too.
17 audio recordings.
Does everyone who does shady crap record themselves like this?
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:05 pm@335
So you’re going to ignore the elephant in the room, aint ya?
Elephant = FBI tried like the dickens to keep that FD document from Congress. If it were worthly bs, would they tried this hard to hide it?
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:07 pmNot the Strongest Argument:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:16 pmI see the GOP elephant.
nk (aeade6) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:17 pmSo far the only “elephant” are unsubstantiated allegations by an anonymous informant as reported by two members of Congress that have every incentive to exaggerate (to put it mildly) claims against President Biden. If they have such evidence (such as bank statements, recordings, witness testimony, etc.) it should be released during televised Congressional hearings. So far the allegations have as much credibility as the Steele dossier.
To quote Gertrude Stein, “There’s no there there.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:25 pmWhy Trumo is unlikely to win a 3-way race:
He is significantly more unpopular than Bide n nationwide, (by at 5 percentage points) so when all is said and done, is likely to win fewer electoral votes.
If it gets into the House, with him being one of the 3 remaining, it is not likely to elect him. In practical terms you need about 57% of the members of the House.
They vote by states, and 26 are needed and if a state is evenly divided it does not vote but 26 are still needed, and some Republicans will not vote for Trump.
Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:29 pmYes, they would try to hide untrustworthy BS,
Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:32 pmWe’re getting double and triple hearsay.
Sammy Finkelman (54c9ba) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:34 pmThis Is Why Trump Doesn’t Like Note-Takers:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 4:58 pmOne Way of Stopping Trump’s Prosecution:
Related:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:23 pmExactly. Thank you, Sammy.
What McCombover & Grabass, a fully-owned subsidiary of Orange, Inc., want is to be able to waive it about and yell, “We got this from the FBI! That proves it’s authentic!”
nk (27c28b) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:25 pmFlorida Representative Matt Gaetz co-signed Greene’s call, tweeting, “This must happen.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:23 pm
Matt and Marge should get a room together. If you take out the “Taylor”, they even have the same initials.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:44 pmDarling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):
Apparently she’s chasing the Christie/Hutchinson voting bloc, all three percent of it. And she is still unwilling to call for Trump to pull out of the race. Sad!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:50 pm> If it gets into the House, with him being one of the 3 remaining, it is not likely to elect him. In practical terms you need about 57% of the members of the House.
This is the claim I don’t understand.
Each state’s delegation gets one vote. You need 26 states.
As I read https://projects.propublica.org/represent/states the Dems control 23 and 1 is tied, so there are 26 states whose delegations are controlled by Republicans.
Which Republican state delegations don’t vote for Trump in the three-way-split scenario?
The Republicans in Congress are cowards who are lined up behind Trump because they are afraid to oppose his fanbois. What changes between now and Jan 4, 2025 to make that no longer true?
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:53 pmDarling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 5:50 pm
Well, her parents did come from the land of the Kamasutra. 😛
norcal (8b5267) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:00 pmI’m watching Christie on the CNN Townhall, and so far he’s impressive: Smart, eloquent, compassionate, commonsensical, good conservative approach on policy.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:04 pmHe could talk circles around Biden (and most other Republicans) in a debate.
If only everyone dismissed Adam Schiff as much as they try and dismiss Biden’s credible guilt.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:08 pmEmbrace the freedom of dismissing both sides, Rob. You’ll be much happier.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:11 pmI’m pretty sure that’s it’s on Cannon to recuse.
She’s supposed to recuse if the are reasonable concerns, and the concerns have been expressed since the minute the assignment was made and some of those were from reasonable people.
I’m not sure what is best for her career, but it would seem that being rid of the tar baby would be a good idea.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:29 pm@300
Yes, they can be “read in” when it pertains to the case.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:59 am
You can read someone in if and only if they have the required clearance AND have the need to know (which clearly the judge has). Someone could grant them the clearance, but (despite what some have been doing) TS clearance is not a party favor.
I would like to believe that all federal judges are qualified for TS clearance automatically but I would also like to believe that Congressmen never lie.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:36 pmDarling Nikki Changes Her Position (Again):
Rip complains they don’t attack Trump and then complains when they do. It’s almost as if other factors are involved.
Nikki went after Trump on Jan 7th, then her backers started calling her with bad news. That was a pity, but understandable — no bucks, no future.
Now, she says Eff it! and throws down once again after (she will say) reading the entire indictment. I hope and pray that this becomes a stampede and Trump becomes PNG in the Republican party.
As I’ve said, if he cannot get the nomination himself he no longer has Sampson-in-the-temple as an option, because he needs that pardon.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:42 pmPlease tell me that the Lessons of Iraq have been learned.
“Don’t trust Turkey”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:45 pmnot easy to look through in later versions of Windows. (it loads it in Adobe Acrobat)
Sammy, you are going to have to learn to use Acrobat. It’s not rocket science.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:51 pmIndictment as a PDF. The reader download is FREE (altoughh you may want to keep an eye out for crapware).
What’s credible about it? The Committee hasn’t released the FBI’s informant report or recordings. Way aren’t the Republicans holding hearings? What are they hiding?
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 6:57 pmWhich Republican state delegations don’t vote for Trump in the three-way-split scenario?
Who is the third-party candidate and who came in last? The Senate only gets to pick from the top two VP finishers.
If the third party candidate is merely center-right they may get some Democrat votes to avoid electing Trump. Also some Republicans. In deciding each state’s votes, I think only a plurality is required so the Republicans really need to make up their minds. But since the election is over dumping Trump might seem a godsend.
BTW, does DC get a say?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:07 pmYeah Christie did a great job. He’s laid out clearly why he’s running and why Trump shouldn’t get the nomination. FINALLY, we saw the case against Donald Trump prosecuted. Now it’s fair to wonder how it will go over with the 70% that are persuadable. Let’s just say it’s the beginning of the beginning. Trump will not sink overnight, but he will eventally fall below 50%…with hopefully a resting point around 30%.
Christie was masterful with his answers. He was comfortable in his skin even when he knew the hard core base would have wanted red meat. He went big and avoided small ball that just divides us. He emphasized accomplishments as prosecutor and governor. He connected with people and talked about drug addiction and his frustration with gun violence. I never thought I would appreciate him after hugging Obama, but tonight I want to vote for him. He’s the one candidate with some courage that isn’t leading with his finger on the polls. Let’s get him to the debates….
AJ_Liberty (4706a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:12 pm@265 Rosa parks was called a communist agitator by conservatives. On non violence as a tactic Dr. king told the white power structure you deal with me or you deal with Malcolm X and the black panthers. Do you oppose the violence committed at concord bridge? Or the slave holders at harpers ferry?
asset (68e5c8) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:15 pm2024 GOPers start hitting Trump (gently) on classified documents
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:20 pmDr. king told the white power structure you deal with me or you deal with Malcolm X and the black panthers.
And we celebrate Dr King and not Malcolm. Why? Because King saw that the path forward was convincing white folks that things had to change, not because they should fear blacks, but because they should be ashamed.
Malcolm preached to blacks that they were getting a raw deal and advocated violence to get a better one. Had his path prevailed, we would never have seen the changes in the 70s and 80s that we did.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:23 pmWe’ve haven’t seen Christie in the candidate arena since 2015, but what I saw was a former NJ governor who has matured, and that is also a contrast from Trump, who still behaves like a 5-year old, whining about not getting what he wants.
Christie seemed less combative; he acknowledged that he has his positions but is willing to listen others’. I found it truly refreshing, and I didn’t tune out like when Pence was issuing his stale contrived rhetoric and phony emotional posturing.
If I were running his campaign, I’d tweet like hell and I’d take every chance to get on cable news and such. Also, I didn’t see anything in his townhall wasn’t traditionally conservative. It shows that we conservatives can present our approach in a positive way, without alienation and division and polarization.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:41 pmChristie has nothing to lose, unlike DeSantis or maybe some of the others. I think that Scott and Haley are finding that they are damned either way, so they might as well go with their heart instead of the fear.
I expect by next week there will be a sea change.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:45 pmWho are “they”? The only two who have “attacked” Trump consistently are Hutchinson and Christie, and they have opposed to Trump running for president from the beginning.
No one else has changed their position regarding Trump so far. Pence is his usual wish-washy self (demanding that Garland “address the nation” to “justify” why Trump was indicted (the indictment does a pretty good doing that). Ramaswamy Is all into Trump, as is DeSantis.
Darling Nikki needs to pick a position and hold onto it. She has had 4 or 5 positions regarding Trump since Jan 7th. To blame her “backers” suggests she has no moral compass of her own. When Haley joins Christie and Hutchinson in calling for Trump to pull out I will cut her some slack.
I’m sure her position will change (again) sometime after tomorrow.
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:53 pmSuch as? Don’t keep us in suspense.
Rip Murdock (6f4bcc) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:56 pmMy predictions are general, like all good oracles.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 7:59 pmTo blame her “backers” suggests she has no moral compass of her own.
Politicians practice the “art of the possible.” Those that forget that go run think thanks.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:01 pmScott’s initial reaction to the indictment was a disappointment. Apparently his backers told him to think twice about it.
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:01 pmLet’s get him to the debates
I’ll say it again: He’s asking for a mere buck apiece to get him on the debate stage.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:02 pmComedy Gold!
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:03 pmI’m sure her position will change (again) sometime after tomorrow.
There is only one type of politician I WILL NOT vote for: that’s an ideologue whose positions are immutable, despite all evidence or argument. To say that someone actively thinks about what is going on and adjusts is somehow weak is the kind of thing I view as strength.
Would I prefer that Scott or Haley were moving faster towards their eventual position? Sure. But I want them to WIN more.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:04 pmRIP actor Treat Williams (71).
Rip Murdock (6f4bcc) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:07 pmScott’s initial reaction to the indictment was a disappointment.
Agreed. Haley, too.
Apparently his backers told him to think twice about it.
It’s what Scott Walker said: Playing it safe and resting on your laurels is the fastest way out of the room. Both of them (and DeSantis) need to break with Trump. It’s one thing when the no-hopers let their hair down, but now those with some chance need to.
It’s ironic that those with the greatest need to be done with Trump are the ones slowest to try to effect it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:09 pmSo you would be okay if in six months she switched back and defended Trump?
Rip Murdock (6f4bcc) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:09 pmI didn’t intend to gush, but I was truly surprised at how good Christie’s performance was.
BTW, I suspended my NBA boycott for the final three minutes of the NBA championship, and I’m thrilled that the Nuggets won. Jokic is the real deal, but I’m also proud of how an 8th seed Miami Heat made it to the championship and fought tooth-and-nail. This was a good moment for this league that I dislike.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:10 pmI’ll bet when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th) only Hutchinson and Christie will not be defending Trump.
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:14 pmI will be donating to the Christie and Hutchinson campaigns, and I’m not ruling out Sen. Scott.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:15 pmI don’t care if I waste a few shekels, they’re the conservatives I want to see in the Oval Office.
Doesn’t matter, none of them will be challenging Trump by the time the convention starts. I don’t see any of them winning any state.
Rip Murdock (bb3d20) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:18 pmTo protect my privacy, I donate only to dark money organizations. Once you get in a campaign’s email list, you will you be there forever.
Rip Murdock (6f4bcc) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:21 pmSo you would be okay if in six months she switched back and defended Trump?
I cannot imagine what facts or arguments would lead to that. But probably not, which is why there are other candidates.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:22 pmI’ll bet when Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th) only Hutchinson and Christie will not be defending Trump.
Will you give odds? You seem so certain.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:23 pmTo protect my privacy, I donate only to dark money organizations.
So you would be okay if in six months they switched and started funding Trump?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 8:25 pmKevin m, at 363 – no. The amendment that gave DC electoral votes didn’t change the procedure for resolving electoral college deadlocks.
aphrael (7e55ab) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:10 pmwhen Trump is indicted in Georgia (and for January 6th)
I expect him to be indicted in Georgia, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on January 6th. I’m not saying it won’t happen, and I won’t be shocked if it does, but if I had to bet I’d bet not.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:15 pmClassic. Trump still hasn’t chosen a bus-bench lawyer to represent him in court tomorrow.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:18 pmC’mon, GOP, eject.
As predicted, Haley and Scott have missed their opening. The cork has been popped. However, 70% of the GOP doesn’t care. They’re not looking for strident opposition to Trump….but some of that group will now get pulled away because the damage will mount. Christie is hitting him in the unpardonable way: LOSER, CHILD, SELFISH. The question is where do the soft-MAGA go?
I predict DeSantis will not look as polished on stage as Haley or Christie…..or as likable as Scott. I can still see him imploding, but he’s got the culture-war bonafides that will keep him around 20%. I doubt that Christie can get above 20%. Of course, he has to get above 3% first.
Sorting will be inevitable. Hopefully by the early primaries we are down to 3…and whatever hanger-ons persist at 1%. Tomorrow will be historic. Hopefully there isn’t violence. Hopefully it provides more opportunities to chisel away at soft-MAGA. I predict an attrition by 1000 cuts. Trump support believes that it is loyal to the end. We will see
AJ_Liberty (4706a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:22 pm“I wouldn’t hold my breath on January 6th.”
It’s certainly a longer shot because, at its heart, a failure to do your duty is less a legal matter and more an impeachment matter. But if anyone can frame it, it would be Jack Smith. Incitement is what happened but intent will be hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence of planning and foreknowledge is needed….will there be enough time to charge and flip someone?
Personally I want to see J6 even more than the other indictments because there’s some justice in bringing it to trial. One last time to compel people to open their eyes/ears and appreciate the madness.
AJ_Liberty (4706a8) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:28 pmDoesn’t matter, none of them will be challenging Trump by the time the convention starts.
Trump will cease to be a candidate in 2013.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:32 pmClassic. Trump still hasn’t chosen a bus-bench lawyer to represent him in court tomorrow.
Maybe he’ll try to represent himself.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:34 pmIncitement is what happened but intent will be hard to show beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence of planning and foreknowledge is needed….will there be enough time to charge and flip someone?
They’ve already got a bunch of people looking at hard time. If Trump ever made calls to Oath Keepers et al, then we’ll certainly hear about it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:35 pmPersonally I want to see J6 even more than the other indictments because there’s some justice in bringing it to trial.
Yeah, I want that too, but only if the proof is there. An acquittal would be worse than no indictment at all, since many (most?) people ignorantly equate failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt with factual innocence. Anyway, if Smith has the goods, he’s done an unusually good job of keeping it under wraps. Thus my skepticism.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/12/2023 @ 10:44 pmTrump will cease to be a candidate
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 9:32 pm
Please to share name of cannabis dispensary.
Much appreciations.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:06 pm@367 fear works better as Dr.king knew. The steel fist inside the velvet glove. Affirmative action because its nice. NO! so give blacks jobs in the buildings so they wont burn them down like 1967 newark one week detroit the next. Try affirmative action instead of burn baby burn. I remember back then black soldiers sitting down on a runway refusing to fly to detroit to shoot down their brothers and sisters. See algiers motel. The fear of black armed militants shooting back was always present back then.
asset (68e5c8) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:11 pmPlease to share name of cannabis dispensary.
Sorry, cold sober. I get high off of life, man.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:16 pmSen. grassley says FBI redacted what they showed congress that burisma executive has tapes talking with joe biden and hunter to black mail them. Executive says to protect him not black mail. (fox news)
asset (68e5c8) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:17 pmJim Crow ended because most of the Boomers had not bought into it yet, and saw there was no reason why they should. It was never based on fear as fear makes people get stupid.
Jim Crow, now that WAS based on fear; fear of the freedman and how he might be upset with people who had supported slavery. So they decided to crush blacks down so that they’d never have the power to rebel.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:20 pmJim crow was only one form of black suppression. A kinder gentiler machine gun hand! Mass incarceration(war on drugs crack cocain ;but not powder) and voter suppression are just two.
asset (68e5c8) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:30 pmasset,
Have you ever changed your mind because of something you read here?
Honest question.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/12/2023 @ 11:47 pmDCSCA changed my mind on something and I thanked him for it on the thread. I am trying to remember what it was. ( I am 74 and starting to feel it! )There have been others on minor points. Not here ;but I once had to change my mind on free will vs determinism and doing so was most unpleasant!
asset (68e5c8) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:01 amasset (68e5c8) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:01 am
Cool.
My mind has been changed a lot reading this blog. aphrael in particular influenced me for the better.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:13 am> A kinder gentiler machine gun hand!
keep on rockin’ in the free world.
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:28 amHi, Norcal — that is incredibly kind of you to say, and I am happy to have had that kind of effect. Thank you! 🙂
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:58 am“Yeah, I want that too, but only if the proof is there.”
Mens rea is certainly the obstacle. Can the prosecutor prove, for instance, that Trump in fact knew that the election fraud claims were false, beyond a reasonable doubt? Can they persuasively show that Trump understood the law well enough to grasp that the Electoral Count Act challenge was suspect and should not be forwarded in good faith? Now maybe the counter is that Trump also had access to the best legal minds in teh government who did in fact advise him. And that close advisors, aids, and cabinet members echoed those concerns. One might also wonder, what else could he have intended? Does his inaction during the riot, in the face of his closest advisors pleading with him to act, demonstrate corrupt intent?
All of this gets easier if the government can get an “insider” to roll, be it Mark Meadows, John Eastman, or Rudy Giuliani. Do they have enough of their own legal jeopardy to see incentive to cooperate? Can the conspiracy be broken into?
Assisting an insurrection; obstruction of an official proceeding; conspiracy to make false statements; and conspiracy to defraud the United States government. The correct resolution was impeachment and removal. The defense appears to be that Trump’s too stupid to understand what he was doing. But let’s elect him again anyways! SMH.
It’s not a bullet-proof case, but there’s a case to be made here, possibly in line with Judge Amit Mehta’s opinion. Does exposure in a federal court, versus the J6 committee, tear away more and more support from Trump? Would it prevent a nomination regardless of the verdict? Can the prosecution score a Colonel Jessup moment? OK, probably not, but a guy can dream. Courts shouldn’t be in the business of delegitimizing candidates, but should “stupidity” be the nullifying defense for the President of the United States. I would like that theory tested….
AJ_Liberty (4706a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:44 am@349
Again, if the FBI didn’t think it was credible, they would’ve said so.
Ya’ll are acting like this gives Trump some cover.
It doesn’t.
It has zero to do with Trump.
This is about Biden.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 6:09 am@362
It’s credible because it exists where evidence is normally documented at the FBI.
It’s credible because of a whistleblower.
It’s credible because the FBI tried like hell to prevent Congress’ oversight.
Because Congress isn’t moving fast enough for you to conduct hearings or the like, doesn’t mean it isn’t credible.
The House can start hearings and issuing subpoenas, but it’s a long slog as Congress has zero enforcement mechanism against a non-complaint Executive agency. The only way they can get the DOJ to “jump” is either cut off funding (good like with the Senate/Potus signoff) or go to courts (which takes many MONTHS).
The only way this “moves”, imo, is if that Burisma executive is willing to share those tapes with the GOP and I don’t see why this executive *would* do that.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 6:20 am@381
Christie has always been a master at townhalls/debates.
He was the “assassin” in 2015 that took down Rubio.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 6:26 amwhembly, I’ll ask again, why would an Burisma executive pay a $10M bribe to remove a prosecutor who was not currently investigating Burisma and was not thretaneing an investigation? What sense does it make? Just because someone claimed there was a “pee tape” doesn’t mean there was one, right?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:33 amIs there irrefutable evidence that this claim is 100% true? And by that, I don’t just mean that people merely said it was this way; I am looking for the same standard that contends that Grassley and his sourcing are not credible until all the documents are released and there are hearings.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:15 amLOL! A politician doesn’t need any facts or arguments to switch positions. What facts or arguments did Darling Nikki provide in changing her pro-Trump position on Friday to her new position yesterday?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:54 amI’ll take that bet.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:56 amIt’s based on their response to date every time Trump has been indicted. It’s a pretty safe bet.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:57 amLOL! Like a “whistleblower” wouldn’t lie. His/her statements (and motive) need to be tested in public with documentation.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:08 amWhat facts or arguments did Darling Nikki provide in changing her pro-Trump position on Friday to her new position yesterday?
“Provide”? You obviously misread what I wrote. In case you didn’t hear, there was this indictment that was published and reading it (which a card-carrying Trumpist will never do) might have been decisive.
People who refuse to change their position when confronted by new facts or arguments are uninteresting.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:10 am“Is there irrefutable evidence that this claim is 100% true?”
After his firing, Biden had no leverage on Shokin. If Shokin had an actionable investigation against Burisma, then where is the evidence of this? What is the fact-pattern of illegality being asserted against Burisma? If Shokin had proof that he was fired to prevent an investigation, why would he not reveal this? The absence of evidence is pretty damning evidence.
A complementary fact is that the EU and IMF were both pushing for the removal of Shokin prior to Biden’s involvement. The documented reason was that he was ineffective in pursuing actual corruption. Their argument has a basis or it doesn’t. Common sense then wonders if the EU and IMF also had children working at Burisma that needed protecting. Unfortunately no reporting of this either.
Again, I’m not pushing the thesis that Biden is guilty of bribery. I shouldn’t have to prove a negative. Show that Shokin was actively investigating. All this sounds like ad hoc rationalization to protect Trump’s dumb theory.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:17 amRemoving Shokin was also the official policy of the United States.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:27 amYou have theories as to why your claim is true. There is some decent circumstantial items you detail. But not the same level of proof that is demanded of Grassley. Do I have that correct, AJ?
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:35 amI’m assuming this tidbit is from the congressional record of the specific hearings?
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:37 amSo, what did Burisma think the were getting from Hunter Biden? Were they looking for influence? Did they get it? Or were they just seeking Joe Biden’s goodwill?
It is hard to believe that they hired Hunter for his skills and experience.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:37 amHaley’s problem is that she didn’t do like Christie and reserve weighing in one way or the other before studying the indictment closely. Instead, she gave the party line of prosecutorial over-reach and double standards. Well, then she had the problem of being the national security candidate that was weak on protecting national secrets. Even if you buy that her hot take was superseded by a more cool analysis, it’s more fodder for those that say she wants it both ways. The problem is that Christie is providing a stark contrast. There’s no appearance of him putting his finger to the wind and seeing how responses will poll. Certainly, like Hutchinson, Christie has no clear path to win hard or soft-MAGA. His only path is boldness. He has nothing to lose.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:37 amHis only path is boldness. He has nothing to lose.
And really, that is a dynamic that will drive all the candidates to take a stand. As Christie said (I watched a recording), you cannot run a campaign without referring to your main competitor.
Those that actually have something to lose will move more deliberately, but eventually it will become clear that fence-straddling is the worst move.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:45 amI note that Christie thinks a Miami trial is possible by year-end. There is great pressure to get this done before the primaries start.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:47 am“There is some decent circumstantial items you detail. But not the same level of proof that is demanded of Grassley.”
Grassley is giving the Trump base the Kabuki theater they want. It’s a big internet. Does even Shokin allege illegality by Burisma at the time of his firing? I can’t imagine that no one has asked him in 7 years and that no one has asked him to provide evidence. At some point, doesn’t common sense take over?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:52 am“There is great pressure to get this done before the primaries start.”
The defendant will drive the schedule, given the case in unprecedented with complicated national security evidence. I would be shocked if it starts before March.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:54 amSo “common sense” is the evidentiary threshold?
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:55 amThe defendant will drive the schedule
What, exactly, does the defense need time to do? Besides hire lawyers who can review the discovery material? Judging by the indictment, the prosecution isn’t going to try to make that difficult.
Or are we talking about all the dilatory appeals that Trump excels at? I expect that much of that will be handled in the express lane.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:03 amGrassley says he has read the unredacted 1023. The FBI provided the House a redacted version of an unclassified 1023. The FBI redacted the portion where the person claimed they have damning tapes of the Bidens.
https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/remarks/grassley-fbi-redacted-references-to-recordings-in-biden-allegation-shared-with-congress
What does common sense suggest is going on?
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:04 amThe absolutely best thing for Donald Trump (and the worst for Biden, the GOP and the country) is to have the trial ready to start after most of the primaries are over and Trump is the presumptive nominee. At that point the government will have to delay until after the election and Trump will run for re-election as David who beat Goliath.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:06 amSelective leaks without any proof.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:09 amGrassley says, Comer says. When does the public get to see it?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:13 amProbably never. The Oversight Committee will probably claim it’s “law enforcement sensitive”; the same reason the FBI didn’t want to show it to the Committee at all. But the Committee will continue to leak allegations without proof.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:19 amNational Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine says….
When does the public get to see it?
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:23 amWhen Daddy comes home from work. Now have some cookies and milk!
nk (f18a30) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:32 amLive broadcast of Trump motorcade from Doral to the Federal Courthouse, along with the Trump Army.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:40 amThe problem with Scott’s and Haley’s positions regarding Trump’s indictment is that they both attack the DOJ and FBI while nibbling around the edges in condemning Trump. They still want it both ways, which will only alienate more from the majority of the Republican Party that backs Trump (76% pre-indictment).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:02 amBuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:04 am
The FBI or DOJ didn’t want to answer questions about why they didn’t try (harder) to get the informant to put up or shut up about the tapes (supposedly 15 conversations with Hunter Biden and 2 with Joe Biden)
The informant was probably trying to interfere with another investigation by making false claims.
I heard something about how someone else was supposed to be the tareget of the bribe.
And there might have been a slight feeling that they didn’t want it to be true, (although the bribe claim was illogical)
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:03 amKevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 10:06 am
No,,, it won’t. Indictments get delayed because they have political implications, not trials.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:07 amKevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:37 am
Neither. They were trying to create the appearance of corruption in order to cause people in Ukraine to believe that the “fix” was in (due to enormous financial support the U.S. was giving to Ukraine) so they would not pursue investigations into Burisma.
Appearance, not reality, because Obama, not Biden, would have been the person to bribe in 2014-16. But you could make believe that Hunter Biden was forwarding some money to Obama.
Incidentally, that s still going on, because president Zelensky told his aides back in 2019 or 2020 that Burisma had to be an exception to their anti-corruption actions because Ukraine needed the support of both parties in the United States.
There was also his connections in Delaware to lawyers who could give them ideas for maintaining corporate control that might not be legal in the United States but were never prohibited in Ukraine and the fact that he would be a pliant member of the Board of Directors.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:18 amOh, please. That is so highly speculative it is to laugh.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:24 amAJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:33 am
Who says that they wanted the prosecutor fired?
Joe Biden almost certainly had nothing to do with firing him.
The stories he told about his being a vice president with superpowers who flabbergasted the U.S> Ambassador to Ukraine (in the August 2016 additional material interview with the Atlantic) and the cancelled press conference (in the Q&A portion of his speech to the Council on Foreign Relations on January 23, 2018) were probably all made up out of whole cloth!
But nobody has picked up on it because the few Democrats who understand that Biden lied about causing the firing of the prosecutor are protecting Biden and the Republicans are clueless and protecting Trump.
And George Kent who could tell the truth about all this is still working for the State Department as Ambassador to Estonia.
There was also an informant later, And it was supposed to be available through the Russian embassy in Berlin, IIRC
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:30 am444. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:24 am
It couldn’t have been actual corruption because the person to bribe would have been Obama, nit Biden.
It is morre probable thsat Hunter would be a notional recipient of a bribe to Obsms thsn a real one.
Besides Burisma;s lawyers were trying to argue that the fix was in. IIRC
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:35 amAgain, your speculations are unprovable.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:40 amReasonable speculation: Burisma couldn’t find anyone close to Obama to be the notional conduit of a bribe, but they did manage to find someone close to Biden. This is logical. The wider you cast your net, the more likely you’ll find something.
Burisma needed to influence people in Ukraine, not the United States. It is easier to create an appearance of corruption than to make a real deal – and bribing anyone connected with the the U.S.A was not only secondhand bribery, but should be more expensive
They also ot someone who had had a position in the Polish government.
https://www.newsweek.com/ex-polish-president-burisma-board-suggests-hunter-biden-never-said-anything-about-his-father-1474728
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:47 amunprovable at this stage.
But the other idea (that Hunter was taking a bribe to influence U.S> policy through his father) is almost disproven.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:49 amHunter never had to do anything for Burisma – not even vote.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:51 amHe was just there on the board to be seen (and used to” prove” that the fix was in)
How many people in Ukraine knew what was a realistic possibility and what was not? Burisma needed people in Ukraine to believe a power greater than they could defy was protecting it.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:54 amNot only Haley, but he also. Where’s a famous Denzel Washington Training Day GIF message when I need it?!
urbanleftbehind (701572) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:57 amThere’s no evidence Shokin was investigating Burisma or Zlochevsky or Hunter when Joe Biden called for his sacking, noted
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:03 pmhere,
here,
here and
here.
By getting Shokin fired, chances were greater that Burisma and Zlochevsky and Hunter would get investigated. Unfortunately, although Lutsenko was superior to Shokin, his tenure was generally a disappointment and he was let go not long after Zelenskyy came into office.
Trump’s Singlewide Scientologists are out in force in front of the Miami courthouse.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:09 pmJust stories, Paul. Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:11 pmhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/
Well this is some news I haven’t seen discussed.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:22 pmNow this is a substantive police from TeamDeSantis:
whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:29 pmhttps://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/06/13/desantis-war-plan-against-a-weaponized-doj-could-it-work-n557638
“Nothing in your links meets the Grassley threshold.”
What’s the Grassley threshold?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:30 pmaley did say she would be inclined to pardon Trump.
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:57 pmMiami court proceedings are over and Trump’s motorcade hs left to go the airport and fly back to New Jersey (Mar-a-Lago is closed up – Trump spent time at the Doral)
Trump was there with his valet and co-defendant, Waltine Nauta sitting beside him. Nauta was nnot arraigned because he did not have local counselm-, as required in federal court, and something willll resume in two weeeks but he does not need to be there,
Trump was released, signed some papers with his own pen, with no conditions (the Magistrate judge asked the prosecution if they wanted any (travel) restrictions – they said no, except one condition added by the judge, not to communicate with witnesses (and I think Nauta) about the case – Trump’s lawyer pointed out that some would be Secret Service, and he had to be near them. The prosecution and defense will later agree upon a list.
Trump was silent throughout – his plea was entered by his lawyer – and had a frown on his face and so on. Similar to the New York City arraignment. A difference was that the judge in Manhattan addressed him as Mr. Trump but here he was addressed as “former president Trump”
There were dozen to hundreds of Trump supporters outside and the same number of media.
At the end the judge said there was good news – his role in the case is now over and that drew a smile form Trump
Sammy Finkelman (a4adc6) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:08 pmWhat was incorrect about there being no evidence of Shokin investigating? Trumpists like you are claiming he was, so the onus is you.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:19 pmI was not claiming he did anything, Paul.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:23 pmSomebody discussed it.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:24 pmOther than a lame attempt at burden-shifting, BuDuh, what was your point?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:26 pmWhich for all intents and purposes, are rumors.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:28 pmMeaning the Grassley threshold.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:29 pmWish you were here.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:30 pmI think we are agreeing, Rip.
Paul, is there a nice way we can discuss things? I was challenging something AJ said. I have not burden shifted a thing.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:35 pmOh, please. That is so highly speculative it is to laugh.
It’s Sammy, Rip. You should know this by now.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:38 pmIf you’re challenging something AJ said, BuDuh, then take it up with AJ.
I don’t know what you mean by “Grassley Threshold”, and it’s not clear to me what your point of contention is with AJ.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:43 pmI doubt that.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:44 pm@458: Again, what’s the Grassley threshold?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:53 pmI thought your completely on topic comment about Shokin was you coming into my comments to AJ, Paul.
My mistake.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:54 pmRip nails it at 1:29pm, AJ.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:56 pmI was just adding supplemental information about Shokin and his sacking.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:58 pmSad!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 1:59 pmYou obviously misunderstood my post; I would associate myself with AJ’s and Paul’s posts. I would bet Paul Montagu’s links are far more authoritative than anything released so far by Grassley and Comer. The “Grassley threshold” is a bar so low it’s underground. The Biden allegations are about as accurate as the Steele Dossier, in fact, if it weren’t for the dossier’s rumor-mongering about President Trump, Grassley and Comer would have no reason to publicize their rumors.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:06 pmwhembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 12:29 pm
In the past I’ve thought that packing the entire federal government into DC is a bad idea, but the obvious benefits of proximity are hard to argue against.
Now, after Covid, we’ve seen that substantial business can be handled at VERY low cost via telecom. What made sense in the 17th Century, or even the 20th, may not be important in an age where one can have a video conference with 20 people on 4 continents, for very little cost, and get things done.
Spread it all out. Put the Agriculture Department in Kansas or Nebraska. The DoJ in Portland. That kind of thing.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:11 pmRIP Pulitzer Prize winning author Cormac McCarthy (89).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:14 pm“President Trump, his staff called me this morning,” Loomer yelled. “President Trump is grateful for the rally”
And so begins his descent into the 3rd-party wilderness of fringe kooks and pig’s heads.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:16 pmOk, I get it now Rip.
Paul, Rip, AJ, I apologize for meddling.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:19 pmThe media says look at the evidence. Trump supporters who will get on jury in miami ;but not d.c. say the evidence says clinton guilty but not prosecuted! Same with bidens. If prosecutors try to keep trump supporters off jury things will get interesting as mr. spock says. Evidence will mean nothing to trump jurors. As the black juror who walked passed o.j. simpson after finding him not guilty told him “this is for rodney king!” and their are many other instances of this.
asset (c69304) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:27 pmThere Is Hope:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 2:28 pm@478
Exactly.
And, I think the DeSantis crew is right in that it HAS to be done early in the administration. You just know the powers-that-be in DC is going to resist and try to fight it in courts.
Outside of the Pentagon, all other agencies should be spread out across the US imo.
In fact, I would go further. No FBI or DOJ “headquarters”. Make leadership be roving commanders visiting each divisions across the US. Give these leadership their private planes and nice hotels when they travel, but no concentrated leadership at “HQ” that would foster incestuous scenarios in DC.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/13/2023 @ 3:18 pmRelated:
Of course, if no communications are available, he can easily claim a coverup.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 4:22 pmI’m encouraged by the low turnout in Miami for Trump. Hopefully the worm will soon turn, and Trump will become the political equivalent of Myspace.
Then what Kevin said will become true. Nobody will admit to having been a Trump fan.
Trump is two things he likes to call everyone else: a loser (2018–by extension, 2020, and 2022–by extension) and a RINO (A true Republican would never call for termination of the Constitution).
norcal (8b5267) — 6/13/2023 @ 4:33 pmTrue that:
Darling Nikki Changes Her Position Again (and Again):
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 4:34 pmhttps://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-argument-no-3-the-hillary-clinton-precedent/
Preach.
whembly (6f1930) — 6/13/2023 @ 4:37 pmWhen I am President, I will also pardon Mr. Former President Trump and, not only that, I will see to it that every family in America gets a proportionate wedge of green cheese sliced from the Moon and delivered to their homes by flying pigs.
That BS from the wannabes ain’t even news. It’s fart noises with syllables.
nk (94bfc5) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:25 pmI’d wildly speculate than Shokin was whispering to Burisma about investigating Burisma for corruption unless Burisma engaged in further corruption by paying him off and instead Burisma engaged in a form of corruption with a better return on investment that got Shokin shown the door and the dud son of Joe Biden a payday and a reason to visit Ukrainian hookers a couple times per year.
steveg (22d520) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:28 pmWhat you all want to look for in the next two weeks or so is a motion to sever by co-defendant Walt Nauta, Trump’s valet. It will be a critical point in the case.
For example, you all know that the government cannot call a defendant as a witness, right? A co-defendant can. Imagine it!
And that’s by no means the only scenario.
nk (94bfc5) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:30 pmI think my speculation covers the “who benefits” question pretty well from Burisma all the way down to hookers and crack dealers
steveg (22d520) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:33 pmAs if the “mishandling of classified information universe” consists only of Mike Pence, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump. If anything, Trump is being treated like everyone else (which I am certain is galling to him.)
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:45 pmNauta was held in handcuffs and had this mug shot taken, unlike Trump, so another example of the two-tiered justice system. Apparently Nauta, who was unwilling to testify to the grand jury, is willing to go down with ship.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 5:49 pmTrump is being treated *better* than everyone else would be if they’d done what he’d done.
Nauta is willing to go down with the ship *now* but that it is likely to change once he gets a lawyer and the lawyer talks to him.
aphrael (588ff0) — 6/13/2023 @ 6:06 pmTrue that:
Deutch, Berger, and Petraeus were indicted when the law allowed misdemeanor charges for mishandling classified information. In 2018, President Trump signed a law which made it a five-year felony to mishandle classified information. See also here for others convicted of mishandling and retaining classified information.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/13/2023 @ 6:11 pmAllahnick continues to impress me. Here is his closing paragraph in yesterday’s article:
(Bold part mine)
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/a-corrupt-bargain/
I’m not regretting my subscription to The Dispatch, and I can see why Patterico considers Nick to be the best writer on the internet.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:04 pmLet’s see where the dust settles on the GOP response. Nikki would have been better served by not speaking right away. I know there is pressure on all of them to pick a side and trying to have it both ways (or oscillating as Haley is doing) is not good.
By sometime next week there should be some clarity. I would hope that candidates (and perhaps the Speaker) will notice that the loud defenders are also the few and move to more open criticism.
It’s one thing for 4th tier candidates to speak boldly — Hutchinson has a job in Arkansas as long as he wants one, and Christie seems to have a comfortable retirement — but those with even an outside chance need to measure their words. “If you come at the king, you best not miss.”
The ball is actually in DeSantis’ court.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:15 pm“If you come at the king, you best not miss.”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:15 pm
One is guaranteed to miss if one never takes a shot.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:17 pmIn 2005, Sandy Berger, Mr. Clinton’s former national security adviser, was ordered by a judge to pay a $50,000 fine for illegally taking classified documents from the National Archives.
… and destroying them so they could not be available for the 9/11 Commission to see Clinton’s handwritten notes on why they didn’t kill bin Ladin in the 90’s. That’s felony obstruction of a major Congressional investigation and it was not charged. Professional courtesy or something.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:19 pmOne is guaranteed to miss if one never takes a shot.
Yes, but shooting and missing has its own consequences.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:20 pmWho will break with Trump first? DeSantis, Scott or Haley?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:22 pmIt’s interesting to consider that, while Richard Nixon had ethical challenges, everything he did as President was for the country (as he saw it). Even in resigning, he did so knowing the country would be better off for his resignation.
It’s interesting that Nixon is now rated about the same as Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter, circa 28th out of 45. He was never the mediocrity that suggests, it’s just an average of his many contributions and his abject failure with Watergate.
Trump will remain near the bottom. Not as bad as Andrew Johnson or James Buchanan, but not much better either. Maybe he’ll rise a bit for the judges, but I’m guessing not.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:35 pmKevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:35 pm
Yes, and don’t forget that Nixon didn’t contest the results of the 1960 election, when fraud was more probable than the 2020 election.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/13/2023 @ 7:59 pmIf it had just been Illinois, he might have. But he’d still have needed 17 more electoral votes to swing to win. There were also 12 uncommitted Democrat electors who might not have voted for Strom Thurmond if it was close.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:19 pm> Maybe he’ll rise a bit for the judges
That depends on what percentage of his judges turn out to be like Gorsuch and what percentage turns out to be like Cannon.
aphrael (80f4aa) — 6/13/2023 @ 8:24 pm“Who will break with Trump first? DeSantis, Scott or Haley?”
Let’s ponder where things are going. The more I hear from experienced prosecutors, the more skeptical that I am that this round of indictments will see the courtroom before 8 months. So there will be motions and appeals and more motions, with the most significant being the challenges to client-lawyer privilege. Team Trump will delay delay delay, straining to get to the convention …and hopefully to the general election. I’m sure they wouldn’t complain if Biden drops dead in the interim.
So, there won’t be much new news spilling out against Trump until August when Georgia likely drops. Then, we get a second wave of Trump exhaustion and fatigue. Now, how will Georgia play? Does Trump finding 2020 votes mean “try harder” or does it mean “we will manipulate the vote count…or try”? Will MAGA care?
DeSantis is probably playing conservative, counting on indictment exhaustion making the case for him. He can continue, “Hey I’d love to support him but he’s just too wounded. I will be more effective…and can prosecute the culture war better”. And it looks like Scott and Haley are playing to sweep in if DeSantis crashes and burns. Is this smart? Surely they have more data than us. NeverTrump doesn’t have much play.
My guess is that we may not see much until the first debate towards the end of August. All three will be markedly more negative.
AJ_Liberty (743261) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:15 pm“Preach.”
Trumps biggest failure was not putting Hillary in jail, despite his promises.
Davethulhu (947ef6) — 6/13/2023 @ 9:54 pmLooks like we got another jim jones in kenya. The body count is growing. (DU)
asset (cdef93) — 6/13/2023 @ 11:16 pmTrumps biggest failure was not putting Hillary in jail, despite his promises.
She would have been tried in DC and been acquitted, or maybe plead it out to a misdemeanor. It’s not like the apparatchiks were hostile to her.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:08 amMore like this:
GOP senator blocks arms sale to Hungary for stalling Sweden’s NATO bid
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:10 amLas Vegas wins the Stanley Cup. They have ice in Las Vegas? Is it real?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:13 amKevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:10 am
Isn’t that a wasted effort if Turkey can still veto Sweden’s entrance?
I guess it does put more pressure on Turkey not to be the turd in the punch bowl.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:26 am@504 Don’t for get nixon committed treason with south vietnam to win the 1980 election as reagan did with Iran to win the 1980 election. Lbj played the tape to rep. sen. dirksen of clair chennault talking treason with nixon and south vietnam junta.
asset (cdef93) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:48 am@497 politics aint bean bag. If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. (HST) Are history is full of mostly men of good will hesitating. The movie 1776 is coming up in july and john adams trying to convince men of good will. As dr. samuel johnson said of the american revolution I observe those who scream the loudest about freedom and liberty are the slave holding southerners. True then true now.
asset (cdef93) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:57 amAllahpundit! I used to really enjoy reading him at HotAir. I did not know he had revealed his identity. Re: Johnson, I’m pretty sure his indictment of slavers howling about liberty was meant for all the colonies, not just the Southern ones.
JRH (49a75d) — 6/14/2023 @ 6:36 amIn a rebuttal, NR’s Ed Whelan brings up the PRA and national defense materials. In defining presidential and personal records, the documents with classified markings don’t fall under either category because presidential records exclude “any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency”, and such documents cannot in any way be construed as personal records.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 6:36 amPaul, all I want to do is explore this without being called a bunch of names.
It is my understanding that the official records are the originals and Trump only had access to duplicates. Is the idea here that Trump took an original that certain agencies now no longer possess?
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 6:53 amWhelan quotes the PRA correctly, which I believe has a typo. They direct you to 552(e) when I think it should be 552(f).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552
Now what this means and whether my notion that the agency still has their original and a President is allowed to take a copy that was sent to his office for his use, I don’t know.
I am going to work in the garden while I think about it.
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:30 amHere is the entirety of the section Wehlan is relying on:
Part (iv) limits ”extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.” This tells me that a reasonable and explainable amount of “copies” are not subject to exclusion from being a Presidential Record.
I think the purpose of invoking 552 in the PRA was to make sure a POTUS doesn’t abscond with the original documents that may be part of a future FOIA or congressional inquiry.
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:39 amEd Whelan quotes the Presidential Records Act to show the difference between government documents and Presidential papers. Documents marked classified, secret, etc., are not Presidential papers. Trump is not charged with violating the Presidential Records Act. There is no enforcement mechanism in that law. It is a law designed to define and clarify the documents.
Trump is charged with crimes under other laws, including Section 793 of the Espionage Act entitled:
Subsection (b) makes it a crime to copy documents covered by this section:
I am sure you realized this after more thought. To protect the originals and not copies doesn’t make sense.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:57 amWhat I realized after more thought, DRJ, is that section 522(f) makes no distinction for “classified.”
To follow Ed’s reasoning, that relies on 552(f), If the President asked the National Archives to send over a copy of The Constitution, he would have to return it upon departure from The Whitehouse.
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:05 amBy the way, the Trump DOJ charged 5 individuals under Section 793:
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:07 amIt is not a crime to keep copies of documents that are not classified or secret. 552 does not trump the other laws that apply to classified/secret documents like Section 793.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:10 amI am only exploring whether or not Wehlan properly represented 552(f), DRJ. 793 is another conversation that I may agree with you on.
Can we stick with 552?
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:14 amI can’t speak for Ed Wheland but, again, I think he quotes the Presidential Records Act to show the difference between government documents and Presidential papers. Classified/sectet documents aren’t discussed in Section 552 because they are always government records.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:17 amThanks, DRJ. I was intrigued by Paul’s statement [emphasis mine]:
“Classified markings” and 552(f) have no relationship.
Back to the garden.
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:21 amAs provided in Section 552(b) at your Cornell link:
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:23 amI agree with Paul. Official agency records belong to the government and cannot be part of Presidential papers. Presidents can retain their own papers but not government records.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:28 amCan the President have a copy of the Constitution that is maintained by The National Archives? Of course he can.
This is the problem with using 552 as a statute with any force over “classified” documents and records. It’s force is only over all documents and records with no regard to classification level.
Doesn’t 552b make the case that the President has authority that is beyond the statute?
BuDuh (eaef9b) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:41 amI think the questions that must be posed to Trump (say at a debate or Townhall) are:
1. If you genuinely believed that you de-classified all of the records that you removed from the White House, why do you think it was a good idea to de-classify top secret documents pertaining to nuclear weapons, military capabilities, and strategic vulnerabilities? Why, as President, did you think these items should be allowed in the open potentially for adversaries to view?
2. If you de-classified the 100’s of sensitive documents in your possession, why did they still retain their classification folders and markings? If a document is de-classified, shouldn’t this have implications for DoD and intelligence agencies to manage copies of those documents and address other material that might have collateral impacts? Who did you tell to manage and execute the de-classification?
I would think every American citizen, including hard-MAGA, would want to understand how the prospective Commander-In-Chief views national security and his role in maintaining secrets.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:44 amA post after my own heart.😍 As I pointed out above, Trump is being treated like everyone else.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 8:54 amI don’t think Trump should be asked any questions. Because his answers will be nonsensical lies.
I think he should be called he what he is: A corrupt criminal creep.
nk (c82711) — 6/14/2023 @ 9:02 amTrump’s indictment makes it extremely unlikely he will attend any debates, interviews, or townhalls. Since he is incapable of not talking about himself, any responses he gives regarding classified documents would be used against him in court.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 9:14 amThat’s not my understanding at all, BuDuh.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 9:35 amHow is a photocopy of the nuclear capabilities of a hostile foreign power any less classified or sensitive than the original?
I mean, are they not marked classified in the first place because of the contents of those pieces of paper?
BuDuh, regarding whether a pocket Constitution is a presidential record, perhaps read the act itself. To me, the answer is “no” because a presidential record…
I think we can categorize a copy of the Constitution in the Oval Office as either “stocks of publications” or “documents produced only for convenience of reference”, as if Trump would read such a Constitution in the first place.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 9:49 am“Trump’s indictment makes it extremely unlikely he will attend any debates, interviews, or townhalls.”
This will be the great struggle in camp Trump. He obviously stepped in it at his Townhall last month and opened up more compensation for E. Jean Carroll (plus all of the ridiculous comments that will provide fodder for Biden ads). However, I don’t know if he can help himself. It will drive him insane to be on the sidelines and not be able to attack Christie and whoever else questions his fitness. But any prospective lawyer would be guilty of malpractice if they OK’d his participation. He can’t resist the ridiculous answers and it would be horrible optics for him to duck the inevitable classified document questions. It’s too bad the debates didn’t start earlier than late August because I see them as great leverage to pull down his numbers.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/14/2023 @ 9:53 amI don’t think it is any less classified. My contention is that 552 is strictly to make sure originals do not get removed from the government whether they are classified or not.
Here is “A” read along with “B” from the PRA that Wehlan quoted:
If the President kept a copy of a document that was used to carry out the “constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President, he is in the clear because of “A.” If he took the original from the specific agency then he is in trouble because of “B.”
Classified does not get a vote.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:01 amSix Things Trump’s Lawyers Are Working On:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:11 am#538
Trump’s strategy has to be —
1. Delay the trials by doing the “poor pitiful me, I am the victim here” motions which make the thing extend into infnity
2. Win the election.
3. Force justice departmnt to give up case.
Any lawyer of the usual stripe would advise Trump to plead out now, but that would mean giving up the presidential run. Not going to happen. Trump’s vision of legal counsel is Roy Cohn (aka worst person in the world). That means deny, delay, expect other side to get tired and give up.
Appalled (03f53c) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:14 amThat only involves money. I think Trump realizes his freedom is at stake, so maybe he can find the necessary restraint. But then again, I could be wrong (especially at his rallies). I am certain he won’t be appearing in any forum where questions will be asked. It would look pretty bad if he answers with “I can’t talk about.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:18 amDoesn’t need much delaying. The average turn-around of a federal felony case is about one-a-half years.
nk (c82711) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:19 amI guessed wrong.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:20 amTrump now has been indicted more times than he has won elections.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:22 amBuDuh,
I think you are reading too much importance into Section 552. Whelanwas trying to educate readers about a statute designed to guide the government and former Presidents on how to separate Presidential papers from government records. My guess is it originated after former Presidents started establishing Presidential libraries, when separating Presidential and government records started.
Further, Section 552 is in Title 5. Federal crimes are in Title 18, so there are no meaningful enforcement provisions (if any) in Section 552.
DRJ (d0e43e) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:43 amI don’t know what you’re trying to say, BuDuh. The word “classified” makes no appearance in the Espionage Act.
Whether the record is presidential or agency, they were never Trump’s property, before or after he was president. After 1/20/2021, they become the property of the National Archives. Under this FAQ, “multiple copies, to include photocopies, of the same document can all be Presidential records, depending on how they are used and maintained in the White House.”
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:49 amFox News is back, all-in the Trump talking points.
Uh-huh.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:53 am“Classified” doesn’t get a vote in Wehlan’s reliance on a section of the PRA that relies of 552. I am not the one who put any importance on 552, Wehlan did.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:02 amHow are documents marked classified not official agency records?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:16 amEven if you want to call them presidential records, what difference does it make?
#543
nk — why does it take so long to prosecute cases? Honest question.
Appalled (03f53c) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:24 amThere are not enough judges, courtrooms, prosecutors, and staff. Besides the trial itself, each case requires its own amount of pre-trial procedure and preparation and it adds up, with new cases coming in every day.
nk (d9e37b) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:37 amSee here for a discussion. Also, the trial judge (if it’s Cannon) is a newbie with scant trial experience.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:48 amThis is not the case for on the job training.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:53 amHer pre-judgeship experiences were also pretty limited:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:03 pmThe first post-indictment poll has come out (see the Economist/YouGov result here), and it ain’t much different from the pre-indictment numbers. Sure, give it time for the seriousness of the indictment to sink in, but this isn’t encouraging.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:03 pmThese comments on trump and the media experts comments are like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. To avert civil war and threats to D.C.’s black population biden justice department decides trial to be held in floriduh knowing trumpsters will find an easier time getting on jury. Evidence shemvedence. How would you convince the trumpsters sitting on the jury to find their messiah guilty? All trump wants is a hung jury and maybe justice dept. too. The number one aim of government is to avert civil war not dispense justice. That is why political trials rarely work.
asset (12ec32) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:11 pm@556, it might require getting to the first debate. Right now, coverage is dominated by equivocation and diversion. GOP politicians are primarily emphasizing the unfairness of Trump being prosecuted when Hillary was not and it appears that Biden might not either. Sure, there are the usual people like Romney, Hutchinson, Christie, and Murkowski speaking out and distinguishing the cases, but they don’t carry much authenticity when it comes to the base. The people who the base listen to are not saying that the GOP must move on from Trump…yet. We are still in “circle the wagons” mode and blame the deep state. I think it will require blunt debate questions where at least one person will be willing to say the king is naked. The others will look weak if they equivocate. At least that’s what I hope.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:21 pmPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 10:49 am
And anything left behind is presumably not Trump’s property.
A president is supposed to separate personal records and government records before leaving office – they never do completely – and the National Archives typically negotiates with the former president.
There was an interesting court case written about in an Op-ed on page A19 in the Wall Street Journal today by Michael Renakes of Judicial Watch involving former president Bill Clinton.
It seems like the National Archives is not obligated to be constantly on the lookout for potential presidential records, and even if they know or suspect a former president is retaining what should be a presidential record, they are not legally required to attempt to retrieve it forcibly, and they can’t even be forced to do by a lawsuit.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/clintons-sock-drawer-and-trumps-indictment-documents-pra-personal-files-13986b28
It seems like that, during the Clinton Administration, Friend of Bill Taylor Branch (they knew each other (and Hillary) from at least the McGovern campaign in Texas) had 79 tape recorded meetings with BILL Clinton, during which he sometimes spoke on the telephone with members of Congress and Cabinet members (Clinton was one for multi-tasking, as we know he did when Monica Lewinsky was him)
In 2009, Taylor Branch revealed the existence of the Clinton tapes, and Judicial Watch wanted to get them released.
Well, at least no one could issue a writ of mandamus if they did nothing, but the judge circa 2009 ruled that they could not even challenge him!.
This is the basis for Donald Trump claiming they are his papers.
If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.
Now maybe that court decision has been superceded by others.
It
Under this FAQ, “multiple copies, to include photocopies, of the same document can all be Presidential records, depending on how they are used and maintained in the White House.”
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:25 pmThere are three kinds of records: Agency records, covered by the Federal Records Act; presidential records (which a judge once ruled nobody could challenge the ex-president on what they could be once he had classified them as personal) covered by the Presidential Records Act of 1978; and and personal records.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:29 pmI never suggested they are not official agency records. I am suggesting that since 552 doesn’t care about the classification of a record (unless a president uses an EO to override), the statute needs to be read differently than Wehlan’s interpretation. As long as each agency maintains their specific records then any copy that was transmitted to POTUS falls under (A):
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:32 pmTill now, they avoided getting a court decision about this.
More about the Clinton precedent.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/jun/12/why-the-bill-clinton-sock-drawer-case-is-not-compa
Or Controlling Legal Authority as Bill Clinton’s lawyers would say.
But Politifact argues:
Those are clearly not presidential records unless they are copies.
In any case they, are also “national defense information” And they weren’t produced by the president.
Well, that stuff was filed separately, or else Trump could not have taken it with him. That condition is met. But they were documents that Trump had. at most, made marks upon.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:43 pmThe precedent:
JUDICIAL WATCH, INC., Plaintiff,
v.
NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION, Defendant.
Civil Action No. 10–1834 (ABJ).
|
March 1, 2012.
Earlier decision on contempt and on the need to preserve electronic records and not just hard copy printouts.
https://casetext.com/case/armstrong-v-executive-office-of-president-2
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:47 pm460:
I assumed to much.
Trump made a campaign-like stop at a Cuban rrestauanet before going to the airport.
Also an argument made by his lawyer for Trump to be ale to talk to Nauta was that he was employed by him.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 12:51 pmAexander Buttterfield kept classified documents he had snuck out of the Nixon Wite House (to preserve them) for forty years till he told Bob Woodward about them.
https://smdp.com/2015/12/30/book-review-bob-woodwards-the-last-of-the-presidents-men
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/lifestyle/people/sdut-alexander-butterfield-woodward-nixon-2015nov28-story.html
https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/finding-aids/alexander-p-butterfield-white-house-central-files-staff-member-and-office-files
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:16 pmThey didn’t prosecute Alexander Butterfield. It’s hard to find out what exactly legal agreement they came to.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:17 pmG.O.P. Rivals See Trump’s Indictment as a Big Problem (for Them)
……….
In previous eras, the indictment of a presidential candidate would have been, at a minimum, a political gift for the other candidates, if not an event that spelled the end of the indicted rival’s run. Competitors would have thrilled at the prospect of the front-runner’s spending months tied up in court, with damaging new details steadily dripping out. And they still could be Mr. Trump’s undoing: If he does not end up convicted before November 2024, his latest arrest is not likely win him converts in the general election.
But Mr. Trump’s competitors — counterintuitively, according to the old conventional political wisdom — are actually dreading what threatens to be an endless indictment news cycle that could swallow up the summer. His rivals are desperate to get media coverage for their campaigns, but since the indictment became public last Thursday, as several advisers grumbled, the only way they can get their candidates booked on television is for them to answer questions about Mr. Trump.
……….
Most of Mr. Trump’s other rivals have tied themselves in knots trying to fashion responses to the indictments that would grab media attention without alienating Republican voters who remain supportive of Mr. Trump.
Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida came down on Mr. Trump’s side but with little enthusiasm. He subtly rebuked Mr. Trump’s conduct, raising Hillary Clinton’s mishandling of classified documents as a stand-in for Mr. Trump’s when he said he would have been “court-martialed in a New York minute” had he taken classified documents during his service in the Navy.
But Mr. DeSantis has also used the opportunity to give Republican voters what they mostly want: He has defended Mr. Trump and attacked President Biden and his Justice Department, saying they unfairly target Republicans. ………
……….
On Tuesday, (Mike Pence) told The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board, “These are very serious allegations. And I can’t defend what is alleged. But the president is entitled to his day in court, he’s entitled to bring a defense, and I want to reserve judgment until he has the opportunity to respond.”
Mr. Pence went on to denounce the Biden administration’s Justice Department as politicized — in large part because of its treatment of Mr. Trump — and promised that as president he would clean it up.
Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina and Ms. Haley, the former United Nations ambassador, both initially greeted the indictment with condemnation of what they called unequal justice — harsh for Republicans, lenient for Democrats — before tacking on their assessment that the accusations against Mr. Trump were grave and should be taken seriously.
Then, on Tuesday, Ms. Haley volunteered that if elected she, too, would consider pardoning Mr. Trump.
……….
“I don’t think they know what they think yet,” said (Vivek Ramaswamy, who has said he would pardon Mr. Trump) of the candidates he called the “finger-in-the-wind class.” Some candidates “tend to serve as mouthpieces for the donors who fund them and the consultants who advise them, and the donors and consultants haven’t figured out their advice yet.”
………
“We’re in a situation where there are people in my own party who are blaming D.O.J.,” (Chris) Christie said on Monday night in a CNN town hall meeting. “How about blame him? He did it.”
……..
(Katon Dawson, a former South Carolina Republican Party chairman who works on Nikki Haley’s campaign), said Mr. Trump’s poll numbers were likely to rise in the coming weeks, along with the sentiment that the government cannot be trusted.
……….
Related:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:20 pmSorry for the lack of blockquotes in the NYT piece in post 567.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:21 pm@504 Don’t for get nixon committed treason with south vietnam to win the 1980 election as reagan did with Iran to win the 1980 election. Lbj played the tape to rep. sen. dirksen of clair chennault talking treason with nixon and south vietnam junta.
Chestnuts, roasting on an open fire….
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:37 pmWhat does Nikki Haley actually believe?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:34 pm
Her wet finger and the wind
norcal (8b5267) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:42 pmSammy, the WSJ piece by Michael Bekesha (not Renakes) was why I linked to Ed Whelan’s tweet, and I think you should read it (I couldn’t read the WSJ piece because I don’t subscribe), because Bekesha overlooked agency records, which are not presidential records and are certainly not personal records.
Several points…
One, the PRA states that “documentary materials produced or received by the President” shall…”be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately”.
Two, Bill Clinton did it right. He kept tapes from his biographer separately from White House work product, putting them in a sock drawer. NARA had no control over them, therefore Judicial Watch had no legal authority to get them.
Three, I agree that a president has discretion as to what materials can be separated as personal records, to a point, but a bad faith president could exploit that loophole. Far as I could tell, Clinton’s tapes fell under the category of “purely personal and nonpublic character”.
Four, there is no record of Trump separating any personal records. Actually, more the opposite. He lumped everything into boxes and shipped them off to his country club.
Five, because Trump made no separations as president, he forfeited any claims after 1/20/2021 to the records he took, IMO.
Six, if there was one good thing for having Special Master Dearie involved, he did the separation work that Trump should have done.
Seven, there is no mention of a negotiation in the PRA. The National Archives did so with Trump out of deference to his office.
This is false on multiple levels, Sammy. First, there is no record that Trump claimed that the documents he took are personal records, he just said had a right to take whatever he wanted, which is a lie. Two, there is no way that documents with classified markings are personal records, even if he did make such a claim.
How do you know that, Sammy? How do you know they were “deeply distrustful” and not “friendly”?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:44 pmPaul Montagu:
Here is a free link to the WSJ op-ed.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:46 pmWhy would classification make a difference, BuDuh? Whether classified or no, if they’re agency records they’re not presidential or personal, per the PRA.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:47 pm5. An Alternative Narrative
“Unbeknownst to me, my personal aide Walter Nauta secretly took many classified documents and stored them at Mar-a-Lago. I think he was going to give them to the Cubans!”
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:51 pm@563
I don’t think that precedent applies to the Trump case though.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:52 pm#569
National Review is far nicer to Haley than I would be. After all the article mentions these positions:
1. Good heavens — how terrible of DoJ to indict Trump; BUT
2. How reckless of Donald to have engage in this conduct; BUT
3. I’ll be inclined to pardon him for the good of the country.
That’s not egnigmatic, as NR would have it. That’s trying to have things both ways. No thanks.
Appalled (a788a6) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:53 pmMy guess is it originated after former Presidents started establishing Presidential libraries, when separating Presidential and government records started.
Pretty sure it was a reaction to Nixon’s claims that the Tapes were not governmental records but privileged Presidential records, and similar claims about papers and effects.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:55 pm@572
I think it’s irrelevant legally, but I think it’s obvious that the National Archives folks had obvious “ax to grind” against Trump and were more adversarial towards him than other former Presidents.
It feeds this narrative, that there’s an asymmetrical application of the law.
Not sure how that argument helps Trump, but its completely irrelevant with the charges Trump faces, imo.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:56 pmThere are not enough judges, courtrooms, prosecutors, and staff. Besides the trial itself, each case requires its own amount of pre-trial procedure and preparation and it adds up, with new cases coming in every day.
Part of that is solvable by the express lane that Trump resides in. Chris Christie — a former USA — says 6 months ought to be enough time to get things started. NOBODY wants this trial starting next April or July.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:58 pmReading BuDuh’s persistent thinking on how Trump didn’t break the law makes me think of this from Chris Christie in his town hall:
Source: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/chris-christie-donald-trump-conduct-document-indictment-inexcusable/story?id=100020254
Appalled (a788a6) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:00 pmAs I see it, there’s a reason the PRA isn’t mentioned in the indictment, and it’s because it’s inapplicable. Item 4 of the indictment.
Even if someone successfully claims they’re presidential records, they’re still not his to possess.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:00 pmWhere is DeSantis on this? Asking for a friend.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:04 pmI really don’t get that, whembly, because the “asummetrical” I’m seeing was Trump’s resistance at returning documents that never belonged to him. Why did Trump have to make this such a chore?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:05 pmA lot of the language of 552 seems to designed to keep government records of any sort from disappearing. As long as the “angecy” maintains its original/copy of a record, whatever copy was issued to POTUS falls under the PRA and, according to (A) become part of the Presidential Records.
If the original left the agency and POTUS tried to make off with it, then (B) applies.
As long as the agency can still produce their record at any point, whatever duplicate that is part of The Presidential Records is fully allowed to be there as well.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:07 pmThis is a complete misrepresentation by its simplistic summarizing, Appalled. What exactly do you think I am arguing?
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:11 pmSo, Trump is running against a supposed “Deep State” that viciously oppresses the People’s Freedom, and then he’s indicted for things that others are not indicted over.
That is, at least, the political argument he is making. Will it sell?
If it does, maybe there’s some truth in it. After all, it means that people are ignoring things like Trump’s character, his sleaze, his many many lies, and his incredibly self-centered ego. Why would people choose to believe something from Donald Trump? Maybe it’s something they already are thinking.
Sometimes even the Devil can speak truth. Is it impossible to believe that there are serious and fundamental things wrong with the federal government?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:13 pm@583
No Republican is going to adopt the Liz Cheney playbook to persuade GOP voters to move on from Trump, and the #NeverTrumps & media is going to scream its butthurt over that fact.
My guess, is that the Not-Trump candidates will craft a response that will highlight the good things Trump has done in the past, but also highlight the legal realities that Trump is facing now/future, and that he’s not the best person for the job in the primaries.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:14 pmDon’t forget to accuse the accusers of every crime you’ve committed or intend to commit. ABP. Always Be Projecting.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:16 pm@584
I’m talking about the left v. right narrative, that isn’t solely a Trump thing.
Yes, the Trump Russian Collusion hoax and all that does add to this narrative.
But, I’m talking about how, in today’s climate, there’s an appearance of asymmetrical application of justice perpetuated by the Biden Administration.
Anywhere from the aggressive prosecution of J6’ers, to FBI investigating parents, to overall lack of prosecution of the summer of riots, to prosecutions of pro-lifers, etc…
This is the narrative, that the left/Democrats are willing to political prosecute their ideological opponent.
I hate it.
Inevitably, if a GOP wins the Presidency, there’s going to be awful pressure to “tit” for that “tat”, and to me, I don’t see how that ends.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:21 pmBuDuh,
So what is the point of your string of posts regarding presidential records?
Appalled (5698c2) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:23 pmI’ve said this since 2015:
The government needs serious reform. But Donald Trump is not the person to do it. He hasn’t the skill, the knowledge, the temperament, the wit, or the inclination to obtain such. All he can do is wreck.
OTOH, Joe Biden (and Hillary Clinton before him) oppose any reform; they like things just as they are.
Who then? The GOP used to have some folks with ideas, knowledge of government, history and of the current structural problems. Where are they now? Ryan is off in some think tank, Gingrich is entering his dotage, Romney is getting tired, McConnell has his hands full with baby Senators. Maybe Christie. Maybe some Senators. But the field is narrowing as we value partisanship over statecraft.
But it is CERTAINLY not Donald Trump.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:23 pm@590:
Let’s just talk about gerrymanders. How many Democrat state gerrymanders has DoJ objected to?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:25 pmI would prefer you told me how you already concluded what my point is, Appalled.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:29 pmPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 1:44 pm
All these boxes must have come from the residence area. e kept them away from where anyone else could look at them. That was the separation.
SF> This is the basis for Donald Trump claiming they are his papers.
I am speaking about what Trump is claiming now I don;’ know when or if he got some legal advice that he could take anything in the residence area but he didn’t argue this point with the National Archives
If they are copies for his personal use. (although they are supposed to be distinguished as copies)
SF: If the people at the National Archives had been friendly with Donald Trump, instead of deeply distrustful of him, they would be so regarded.
Because that’s what the 2012 decision by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, seems to indicate when she says that the National Archives has no legal obligation to go a hunt for presidential records and even no right to dispute what a president says (Trump had no knowledge of this decison back when he was hiding documents)
I think they were. TYhere has even been leaked concern (not on the part of the archivists but in general) that maybe he might turn things over toa foreign power etc They may also have been trying to protect themselves – as soon as theysaw skme documents Trump turned over were classified they made acriminal referral and gave everything to the FBI.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:34 pmThere is in news stories.
It is all unofficial practice. It doesn’t come from the PRA
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:42 pm@569, Haley remains talking to the base….and soft-MAGA might be ok with a Trump conviction, but would not want him to serve time. That would take him off the stage and end his political career. The party could move on. Hard-MAGA obviously wants full acquittal. NeverTrump wants conviction plus tar and feathering.
Personally, I might be ok with commutation versus pardon. Commutation reduces the penalty, but does not exonerate the person. Maybe it’s a difference without a big distinction, but losing is the key first step. Maybe the best response is “we’ll see” or possibly even better “we’ll see based on how contrite he acts”
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:43 pmPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:00 pm
They need to be personal records.
Bt there is no procedure for adjudicating thst.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:44 pmexceot that anything left in the WH is not personal
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:44 pmDid they? What’s your cite for that?
Why were so many presidential records in those boxes? Only a fraction were returned to Trump.
Also, if they were all personal records because he purportedly stashed them in his personal residence, why did he return 15 boxes in January 2022?
Copies of classified documents? Even if they’re photocopies, Sammy, they’re still classified, and Trump is not authorized to keep them after 1/20/2021. I’ve never heard of a document morphing from classified to declassified after getting run through a photocopier.
Also, I don’t understand how you can divine NARA’s feelings in 2021 from a 2012 court decision.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:55 pmPlease tell me how documents with classified markings could be construed as personal records. I doubt even Judge Cannon would touch that.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:58 pmThe operative word there is “acts.” If he’s convicted I give it a small but non-zero chance he’ll act contrite. Will the act be convincing? Vanishingly small chance. Will he genuinely be contrite? Zero chance. As in -460 degrees Fahrenheit zero.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:03 pmSource
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:08 pmExcept Trump.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:10 pmRIP book editor Robert Gottlieb (92). Edited books written by John Le Carre, Robert Caro, and many other Pulitzer and Nobel Prize-winning authors.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:20 pmI’ll take a stab at it. I think “classified markings” has a built in semantical conundrum. Even a declassified document has classified markings. For example I grabbed something at random from the FBI Vault
https://vault.fbi.gov/Majestic%2012/Majestic%2012%20Part%201%20of%201/view
Hopefully the link works, but if it doesn’t you can grab any random document and see the same phenomenon; declassified documents have classified markings.
I think that makes it possible for a president to completely and totally declassify something, make a copy of it as an ordinary citizen would through the FBI Vault, and include that copy of a declassified document, containing classified markings, amongst his personal papers. Like a pocket Constitution.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:24 pmI meant to say “next to his pocket Constitution. 🙂
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:30 pmAnother Lilliputian enters the race.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 3:30 pmBuDuh,
I can’t imagine that you (or your source) dug deeply into the law regarding Presidential records for the joy of reading the US Code Annotated. You wanted to see if there was a get out of jail free card for Mr Trump buried in the statute.
If that conclusion is wrong, feel free to say why you think this is a valid line of inquiry for other reasons.
Appalled (ed1c9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:00 pmThat conclusion is wrong. I don’t really care if Trump goes to jail. If he broke the law then F him.
I just have an issue with misrepresenting statutes to get him there.(equally misrepresentation to exonerate him.)
IMO, Whelan starts off on one path and then does a triple lindy to get to another path, but hands out a trail map that excludes the obstacle he dove over.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:06 pmI think they bent over backwards to accommodate Trump.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:45 pmI think Whelan raised Section 552 to help people understand the process and issues in differentiating Presiddntual papers and government records.
I think you are completely wrong that Section 552 says copies of government records become Presidential papers simply because they are copies.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:48 pmI am saying that 552 doesn’t prevent classified copies from becoming Presidential Records.
Paul wrote:
This does not appear to be correct.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:55 pm614:
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:45 pm
Both statements could be true.
Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 4:56 pmBuDuh,
Whelan was responding to a WSJ opinion article from a Judicial Watch writer who apparently (wrongly) believes Section 552 protects Trump from criminal liability. So Whelan was not only educating JW about Title 5, Section 552 (the PRA) but also about Trump’s actual charges under the Espionage Act.
Whelan was pointing out that Section 552 has no bearing on classified documents like the ones Trump is charged with possessing/hiding/refusing to surrender. I think after working through it yourself, you agree.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:00 pmPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 2:55 pm
No, it morphs from an agency record to some other kind of record. A Presidential record, even if he scribbles some comment on it, but the 2012 decision says nobody
dy can challenge a president if he says it is personal. Or at least NARA can’t. DOJ maybe could.
Still classified and national defense informmation, though
I don’t.
Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:05 pmI don’t have access to the WSJ article. Only his quotes. From there it seemed he was talking only about the PRA and he used 552 to bolster his position.
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:06 pmThe boxes themselves were Trump’s personal property, for sure. Noobody is suggesting Trump packed away an office library.
Sammy Finkelman (ac8d9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:07 pm“Mine!” bawled Little Donnie, clutching Daddy’s wallet with chocolate-smeared fingers. “Mine!”
nk (e81a9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:08 pmIf you are saying that 552 doesn’t apply to classified Records, then I agree. But I don’t know if any way that classified documents can ever be anything other then government records. Ever.
There are ways to declassify classified records, but they would still be government records.
The PRA Section 552 addresses what constitutes Presidential papers. Basically they are generated by the President and his office — diaries, notes, etc. They would not include Records generated by other government agencies and provided to the President. Even if he made a copy.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:09 pmTaking my daughter on a driving lesson. Back to this later. 👍
BuDuh (e130d1) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:12 pmLOL! The Archives has been begging Trump to comply with the law for the past two years:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:18 pmThis WA Post piece tells the tale of legal counsel advising Trump to cooperate with NARA and DOJ, but practically every single time he took the counsel of his more combative advisors, which is why we’re at where we’re at. This part astounded me…
Fitton is as hyperpartisan as they come, and he’s not even a lawyer (BA from GWU), yet that was the guy Trump heeded.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/14/2023 @ 6:23 pm“Mine!” bawled Little Donnie, clutching Daddy’s wallet with chocolate-smeared fingers. “Mine!”
nk (e81a9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 5:08 pm
Bwahahaha!
Love it.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:00 pmThat’s where Cannon will put in the fix, if she puts in the fix. In the jury instructions. By giving the jurors who want a reasonable doubt, a reasonable doubt that Trump was entitled to take and hold on to the documents.
nk (e81a9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:06 pmOr maybe Mr. Former President Donald Trump could cite the Paperwork Reduction Act. You know, relieving the burden on the National Archives. Like the groups of community activists who occasionally band together and go from store to store simplifying their inventories.
nk (e81a9a) — 6/14/2023 @ 7:49 pmFrances Suarez
He’s running for name recognition so he can succeed DeSantis as governor.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:27 pmPersonally, I think that Cannon will be squeaky clean on this. She really can’t afford another appellate slapdown. Effing this up would get her impeached the moment there’s 218 Democrats in the House.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:32 pmThere’s talk they will move the case to the Miami courthouse for logistics reasons. I think that would mean another judge gets it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/14/2023 @ 11:33 pmI’m not predicting one way or the other, but of course she can afford another slapdown. She sits for life. She’s already shown she’s willing to risk embarrassment to help her benefactor, and embarrassment is probably all she’ll risk by doing it again. Federal District Court judges have incredible power to influence the trials over which they preside, without violating any rules, much less the law. Calendar, jury selection, discovery orders, admissibility of evidence, jury instructions…. Each can tip the scale a little or a lot. Some are reviewable, but those typically require blatant legal error or abuse of discretion to be overturned. There are plenty of ways to put a thumb on the scale without abusing discretion or being a total dumb@ss. Bottom line, we generally impeach only for corruption or criminality, so she’s not getting impeached. Even if she does, as Trump taught us twice, impeachment doesn’t mean squat without 16 Republican Senators willing to convict. Unless she shoots up the courtroom, that ain’t gonna happen.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 1:06 amBu Duh, did you make it back safe and sound….my lot in life also with my daughter on a learners permit
urbanleftbehind (48866c) — 6/15/2023 @ 6:11 amBeldar gave me a good dressing down on Judge Cannon at The Dispatch regard abuse of discretion, so I’m taking back the “unethical” aspect, and he was more deferential to the judge. However, my own suspicions about her bias remain, only because she leaned toward Trump’s side practically every single time and she was smacked for it by the 11th Circuit.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 6:57 amhttps://hotair.com/john-s-2/2023/06/14/car-break-in-victim-you-hear-about-how-bad-san-francisco-is-n558088
More from the leftist utopia of California. Keep defunding the police and hamstringing them so the criminals have free reign. Keep doubling down on leftism.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/15/2023 @ 6:58 am*rein
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/15/2023 @ 6:59 amhttps://www.dailywire.com/news/california-state-senator-warns-parents-to-flee-state-after-gender-affirmation-bill-advances
The state of California wants to destroy your children.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/15/2023 @ 7:11 amBuDuh #612:
As Andrew McCarthy, no Justice Deprtment shill, makes clear in the article Rip excerpted in #626, the attempt to use the Presidential Records Act to excuse Trump’s conduct with respect to classified information that he squirreled away is not terribly serious. There is a specific exemption in the law for the type of records at issue.
If an attorney for Trump tried this argument in Court — I wouldn’t blame them. Hey, it might work and they are supposed to zealously represent their client. However, when an advocacy group makes this argument in the newspaper and disregards the clear exception in the law, it’s not unreasonable to feel that they are mostly trying to curry favor with Trump and his devoted followers. It’s hard to take that kind of argument seriously.
Since 2015, too much of the Right’s time has been spent trying to gloss over, explain, cover up, make somehow noble Trump’s actions. If you sense a lack of patience in some of us with this latest attempt, you might just be right.
Appalled (629706) — 6/15/2023 @ 7:22 amTom Fitton’s new legal theory: The documents that Trump stole out of the White House are all “presumptively personal”, regardless of classification markings.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:30 amAll I can say is that Trump should continue to ignore legal counsel and Listen To Tom, the real legal scholar. It’ll all work out.
Good gets:
https://twitter.com/VApoliticalmeme/status/1669211060979523587
urbanleftbehind (48866c) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:36 amYeah, hitching onto the PRA is a losing gambit I would think.
However, there’s a big, issue that I haven’t seen fully fleshed out.
A lot of articles, pundits seems to make the point that POTUS, must make some assertive declaration that *waves hands* this is declassified and that there must be a paper trail.
I’ve seen articles that the classification “office” at the Whitehouse argued that POTUS’ action can declassify docs, even without verbal assertion. (ie, handing a classified folder/doc to reporters).
I’ve seen arguments made that any documents removed from Trump Whitehouse is presumptuously declassified, but any removal wouldn’t have had happened without a POTUS’ approval (ie, move during transition before incoming POTUS).
Courts has already stated that POTUS has near plenary declassification authority (I say near, because “nukes” info there are specific statutory laws governing that). But, courts seems to loathed to fully describe what that means and set rulings as narrow as possible to that specific act (ie, the Clinton tapes).
It doesn’t seem like Congress is interested in this sphere, and wondering now, the courts would have to assert what “plenary” means in this context.
All of this doesn’t excuse Trump’s obstruction behavior though. He should be convicted on that basis alone imo.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:41 amIt’s a perfect legal theory. A beautiful legal theory.
Fitton has nothing to lose. He’s telling Trump what he wants to hear, and he’s telling Trump’s supporters, most of who don’t even know the words to The Star Spangled Banner, what they want to hear.
It’s a problem only for those who try to wade through the sewage instead of shying away from the first whiff of the stench.
nk (426ee2) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:03 amKeep defunding the police and hamstringing them so the criminals have free reign.
* rein
Works either way.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:09 amSources?
In contrast, see New York Times v. Central Intelligence Agency, No. 18-2112 (2d Cir. 2020) where an appeals court ruled a tweet by President Trump and statements to the Wall Street Journal did not declassify a classified program involving aid to Syrian rebels.
Footnotes omitted.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:26 amRIP two-time Oscar winning actress Glenda Jackson (87).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/15/2023 @ 10:24 amBuDuh,
Presidential Papers of former or soon-to-be-former Presidents sometimes need to be declassified simply because they discuss highly classified information and policies. There is a process for declassification. It involves a page-by-page analysis at multiple agencies. If a former President wants to keep a copy of papers marked as classified, he would have to deal with the same legal/security declassification process.
Trump is too impatient to deal with legal or security process, which is why nk’s comment portraying Trump as a whining toddler is so perfect. He wants what he wants.
DRJ (ce5e13) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:02 amThe story from the folks alleging that Joe Biden received a bribe (or bribes) while VP is unraveling. First, there’s Ron Johnson…
This is the same Ron Johnson who used a Russian agent (Derkach) as a source in one of his “investigations”.
Next, there’s Rudy…
Until there’s actual evidence that Joe accepted a bribe from a foreign entity while in office, I’ll assume this story is full of sh-t.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:02 amAll allegation, zero evidence.
Note: Don’t confuse the declassification of Presidential papers and the declassification of government (agency) records. There is a government record National Declassification Center administered by NARA. NARA also works directly with Presidents to facilitate the identification and declassification of Presidential papers.
DRJ (ce5e13) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:09 am@646
Honestly, I’ll need to dig for them and may take me a while.
The crux of the debate, it think, is if POTUS must follow the same declassification procedures (set by Congress) as everyone else. Which seems to contradict the idea that POTUS has plenary declass authority (vis Article II of Constitution).
whembly (123289) — 6/15/2023 @ 1:42 pm@649
It’s an allegation from an apparent legit source.
When this exploded on the ‘Net, I asked: Where’s the tapes, did FBI even tried to get it?
There’s MORE evidence HERE, than there ever were on Trump’s Russian Collusion crap.
All I want, is the FBI to treat this Biden bribery allegation with the same zeal and vigor they have done during that Russian Collusion allegation.
Is that too much to ask for?
whembly (123289) — 6/15/2023 @ 1:46 pmChristopher Steele was considered a “legit source”, whembly.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 2:30 pmhttps://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/05/10/house-oversight-bidens-scored-10m-or-more-during-vp-years-from-foreign-influence-peddling-n549802
Just a reminder that Biden is a corrupt, money laundering creature.
NJRob (3fff2b) — 6/15/2023 @ 2:47 pm“Which seems to contradict the idea that POTUS has plenary declass authority (vis Article II of Constitution)”
This is why we should only have adults be President: Serious men and women who appreciate national security. Now no one’s claiming that the week running up to Trump’s exit from the White House that he couldn’t have sat down and identified lots of documents for declassification. He has plenary authority to do that. What he doesn’t have is post hoc authority to retroactively say he declassified anything. The power ends January 20th and, like a tree that falls in a forest, if there is no evidence of declassification how could we ever distinguish an ex-President acting outside his authority? But again, why are we even entertaining putting this child back into the White House. The GOP electorate needs a time out. He’s unfit just asserting what he is about the handling the classified documents.
“There’s MORE evidence HERE, than there ever were on Trump’s Russian Collusion crap.”
As many times as Paul has addressed this, it’s a wonder how you can say this in good faith. You can almost say Trump Tower Moscow and stop there. Manafort. Russian hacking of Democrat servers. Personally I don’t want any candidates with sketchy connections who haven’t been thoroughly vetted. Trump wasn’t that.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/15/2023 @ 3:05 pmhttps://dersh.substack.com/p/why-donald-trump-cannot-get-a-top?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=373575&post_id=128526261&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
If true, they need to be prosecuted.
NJRob (3fff2b) — 6/15/2023 @ 3:24 pm3 chinese scientists have named ben hu as patient zero in covid a scientist who was playing around with covid in the wuhan lab. Not someone working at a fish market. (ACE)
asset (68157a) — 6/15/2023 @ 3:38 pmAwesome comment.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:04 pm65 Project:
Using the law to overturn a legitimate election would be a legitimate Bar complaint.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:07 pm65 Project complaint against Dershowitz. It involved Kari Lake and the 2022 Arizona election.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:11 pmKen White details the broad discretion Cannon has to influence the Trump trial without being recused, much less disciplined.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:12 pmI don’t know if anyone knows who got the money.
You have to reaalze that It is extremely improbably that the money would have een equally split between Hunter and Joe.
Somebody got laundered money but that it was Hunter and Joe Biden is probably a cover story.
As for the tapes, what we have is Grassley and others saying (probably truthfully) that an FBI informant (who we can’t assume was accurate just because the FBI valued him as a source) said that Mikola Zlochevsky said he had 17 tapes of conversations with Hunter and Joe Biden, 15 with Hunter and 2 with Joe (who probably never met him).
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-tapes-hunter-burisma-allegations-chuck-grassley-1806241
Later I read something (no idea how accurate it is that the executive who the informant claimed had said he had audio tapes was none other than the principal of Burisma, Mikola Zlochevsky (who could not keep the gas leases if he was acknowledged as the person who ran Burisma.
He might have said that, possibly (to create the appearance of corruption.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:15 pm(The above link takes you to the comments. This one takes you directly to the post.)
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:15 pmIt doesn’t declassify anyting more than what that tweet says.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:27 pmI think the rules were most closely followed by the George W. Bush Administration.
The Office of Records Management kept a list of the documents Trump e received and the National Security Council maintained a log of the classified documents he saw. Those inventories were shared with the National Archives and Records Administration, so that NARA would know about them.
Here is what Karl Rove wrote:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-indictment-news-arrest-arraignment-jail-national-security-2024-presidential-race-9230357b
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:32 pmhttps://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/opinion/donald-trump-indictment.html
So, following to what Karl Rove says, anything recorded by The Office of Records Management as having been given to the president (or the vice president too I think) cannot be a personal record.
There’s room for discussion about notes the president makes.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:37 pmWhat Trump argues, based on the audio tapes Bill Clinton secretly made and kept is about as wrong as it is possible to be; it is literally the opposite of what the law says
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:39 pmNYC Police Commissioner quit probably because Mayor Eric Admas wanted to protect some policemen from discipline.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:43 pmTrump was not indicted over keeping any documents he returned before the search warrant.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:44 pmI’m gonna bet that Cannon proves everyone wrong.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 5:12 pmWho do you mean by “everybody” and what do you mean by “wrong”?
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 5:58 pmThe thousand people who have all said that she’s a shill for Trump and will bend over for him, either blatantly or subtly.
I think the will be Trump’s worst nightmare, and will hammer this trial though as quickly as possible, leaving no room for whaddabouts.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 7:12 pm*she
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 7:12 pmShe left little doubt in the last go round that given her druthers she absolutely would be a shill for Trump. How far if at all she’ll bend over this time I have no idea and make no prediction. My point, as reiterated more fully and eloquently by Popehat, is only that should she choose to do so she has broad latitude to impose her will on the trial in myriad ways with little or no price to pay so long as she doesn’t go hog wild.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 7:31 pmMaking friends on the land bridge joining the tips of the horseshoe.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:02 pm@653
Career line agents called into question of that Paul.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:48 pm@655
..and you and Paul *hand waved* away about how it was conducted.
Fact of the matter, is that FBI leadership wanted to keep the investigation going for partisan reasons. Career FBI agents has had called into question as to why keep the investigation open.
You can’t call me acting in bad faith while ignoring Horowitz and Durham’s reports of “FBI acting badly to get Trump”.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/15/2023 @ 8:53 pmAnyone who thinks this man should be allowed anywhere near national security information has lost their f’ing mind. (Pretty sure AJ said words to this effect upthread, but I don’t have time to find it right now, so let’s just call it a hat tip.)
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:40 pmThis is the 2nd time you rested your argument on “career FBI agents”, whembly, and I don’t know that means, especially when (1) Horowitz (and Durham) concluded that the FBI investigation was predicated, (2) both Horowitz and Durham did not find evidence that political bias affected the FBI’s work, (3) that Durham endorsed the Mueller report (which basically dispensed with Steele), (4) that Mueller concluded that there was evidence of a conspiracy between Trump people and Putin people to help Trump win (but not enough evidence to indict) and (5) both Mueller and Durham agreed on Putin’s “sweeping and systematic” cyber/propaganda attack on America.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:46 pmAside from whatever Danchenko conjured up and fed to Steele, I really don’t what you mean by “Russia hoax” because, except for the aforementioned, it was no hoax.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 9:40 pm
Only a rube could read that Trump tweet and not laugh.
If I had been in a coma for the last decade, and then woke up and saw that tweet, I would start to wonder how politics got injected into professional wrestling smack.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/15/2023 @ 10:13 pmAnd this guy wants his finger on the button? I wonder who he’d nuke first. This is starting to seem existential.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:10 pm40% of democrats want rfk or anybody but biden. What biden and party hacks fear most is the left not RFK. Dr cornel west now candidate of green party next jill stein? Republicans in congress said biden didn’t give enough in debt ceiling bill. AOC and democrats said he gave to much. Republicans say they want more or will shut down the government. Donor class says give republicans what they want. AOC and left says you better not if you don’t want a primary challenge from the left.
asset (44853b) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:18 pmIf Biden loses to RFK Jr in NH or SC, he will have to drop out and let the party pick someone else. Even if he doesn’t drop out, there will be 5 challengers overnight.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/15/2023 @ 11:30 pmOne of the costs of Donald Trump’s endless scandals is that our media — and our leaders — pay less attention than they should to other problems, for example, the growing fentanyl problem,
which is even affecting our troops:
(I may be paranoid, but I can’t help wondering whether the ChiComs are doing all they should to stop the flow of fentanyl into the United States.)
Jim Miller (521083) — 6/16/2023 @ 5:36 amSigh! This is not the Clinton Sock Drawer Case. This is the Melania Underwear Drawer Case.
nk (24522f) — 6/16/2023 @ 6:24 amA crystal chandelier in the bathroom, but no bidet. What a parvenu!
nk (24522f) — 6/16/2023 @ 6:25 amIn his story about the cuff links he received as a wedding gift from Trump, Charlie Sheen warned us seven years ago that the guy is a fraudster. Apparently, Sheen wasn’t the only victim.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 7:27 amFast forward to this week, it was “Food for everyone!” and then he paid for no one.
According to RCP, Messenger/HarrisX has Trump up by 36.
My Grand Old Party, I hate.
Also seven years ago, Trump was at 1%.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 7:30 amYes, polls change, but I don’t see the polls changing for Trump until Indictment No. 4.
Too bad we cannot go back to the glory days where the media had the time to lie about Trump’s feeding of Koi.
BuDuh (629c92) — 6/16/2023 @ 7:36 amurban, thank you for the concern. 🙂. She is going to be an excellent driver, but for the moment I am staying on top of my BP meds.
I see there are a few comments I would like to respond to regarding my earlier topic. Since my last post I fell down a rabbit hole researching Presidential Libraries and the classified information they contain and how that information got there. There are classified documents that left with previous administrations, that current administrations declassified prior to any timetable set by the PRA. They never left the custodianship of the prior president. Before I comment any more I really want to get better versed in this end of it. The Former President’s Act seems to be very relevant in exactly how the National Archives is supposed to assist in the record handling and what the actual expectations should have been for Trump.
I’ll be gone for a while while I see if this deep dive has teeth.
BuDuh (629c92) — 6/16/2023 @ 7:45 am@679
Then I’ll stop responding to you then, as I’m convinced that you’re unable to separate Trump’s bad deeds from the FBI’s own bad deeds.
And, I don’t think we can continue this discussion as we both have our opinions and there’s no traction to convince each other otherwise.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 7:58 amBuDuh,
In seriousness, there is no rabbit hole to go down. The archives said to Trump please, pretty please, give the documents back. Trump did not comply. He did not receive a legal opinion that he did not have to comply. (His lawyers told him the opposite.)
I agree with Andrew McCarthy that the treatment of Hillary Clinton — who showed a similar level of sheer wilfulness — makes the prosecution of this case more difficult. But there are two important differences between DJT and Hillary — (i) when law enforcement made a request, she complied with it; and (ii) the laws governing this conduct were tightened during the Trump administration, for the purpose of preventing someone like Hillary Clinton from getting away with her nonsense ever again.
We have reached the situation where the default position in the GOP is that laws do not apply to Donald Trump. Too many of his supporters devote their lives to finding excuses for him. It would be better spent figuring out how to further their cause without the DJT drama.
Appalled (03f53c) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:03 amThose supporters should get a life, Appalled. My motives are not the same as theirs.
I’ll check in in a while and let you know what I have found in my spare time.
BuDuh (629c92) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:09 amIf Biden loses in NH it will be because of the primary schedule change the Democrats forced through removing NH as the first primary. Both Iowa and NH (as first contests) are overrated for both parties.
There is no way Biden would lose in SC. Jim Clyburn would see to that.
Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:12 amI’ll be patient.
Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:16 amBuDuh:
Tom Fitton at Judicial Watch seems to be the source for the Presidential Records Act approach. If you are interested, I would track down where he is getting it from. (He is not a lawyer, by the way.)
Appalled (65d092) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:18 amWell, that’s too bad, whembly, because I haven’t taken a blind eye to their “bad deeds”. At the same time, I think you’re overinflating what those deeds are, and I’ll note that you don’t have an answer to my five points.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:23 amThe declassification process is governed by an Obama-era Executive Order, which Trump did not amend to include “declassification by thought”.
Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:23 amI think a less fruitful rabbit hole to explore is one that has us pretending you really want to engage in a thoughtful conversation, Appalled.
But that is how you spend your time…
BuDuh (629c92) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:24 amBiden may not even be on the NH primary ballot.
Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:35 amBuDuh,
I’ve been up front that I think this line of reasoning is pretty dumb and I don’t think you should waste your time with it. You treat it more seriously and think there is more to it and say you are going to find some more stuff. Fine — I give you a research suggestion. It might help.
If that offends you, there’s very little I can say. If you had been brought up in the pre-Civil War South, you probably would have fought a lot of duels.
Appalled (65d092) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:38 amWhy do you waste your time, Appaled? You have no idea what my line of reasoning is. You proved that when I asked you to articulate what you thought it was.
I have to cut the strings now. You are not invested in anything more than giving speeches.
BuDuh (629c92) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:45 am#702 —
It’s a question I often ask myself…
Appalled (65d092) — 6/16/2023 @ 9:09 am13.
And they are not so good in waging war, also.
It’s been speculated that the reason MbS decided to invest in golf – they do this with any different businesses – was to funnel money to Donald J. Trump. Trump’s golf courses were suffering from a bit of boycotting. With the merger he’ll be more than restored.
This would not need to be coordinated in advance with DJT, The Saudis give gifts ad rely on people to make their own calculations, as Prince Bandar once openly said (perhaps to cover up instances where there is advance agreement..
There are some 500 former U.S> defense and other officials who were employed by the Saudis and the UAE – and members of the Biden Administration or current military can also look forward to that if they don’t alienate the Saudis.
It works a little the other way too. Saudi Arabia is half making peace with Israel (although they still stay in the camp of its enemies – in fact it is better for Saudi Arabia that there should be an enemmy camp)
On the other hand they are not keeping the price of oil low and work with Russia on that. Oil prices are something that is merely in the interest of the country and make a great deal of difference to the Saudis. No strong feelings.
The golf thing is not just some Sausis but the investment vehicle is 93^ owned by
Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf) — 6/16/2023 @ 9:48 amRip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:12 am
Which is why he wants to have SC ahead of NH for the Democrats.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/19/politics/jim-clyburn-joe-biden-dnc-south-carolina-2024-presidential-primary/index.html
Now NH may resist.
Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf) — 6/16/2023 @ 9:52 am696. The lawyer for Judicial Watch brought that 2010-12 lawsuit.
Technically, the separation is all supposed to be done by the president’s last day in office.
They tried to do it contemporaneously in the Trummp House but Trummp would not go along.
Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf) — 6/16/2023 @ 9:55 amhttps://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/15/us/politics/trump-documents-boxes.html
How is that a contradiction?
Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:15 amMore:
Sammy Finkelman (f0fedf) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:17 amDidn’t the NYT also run stories about how Trump never read anything? Now they say he consumed such mass quantities of documents that they filled box after box after box?
steveg (01b432) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:27 am@697
Note whatever you want, you’ve and I discussed these points at numerous times over the years.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:36 am@698
Again, you’re acknowledging that POTUS isn’t a unique office…I think. (although, declassification by thought is dumb af, but there’s argument to be made that actions by authority of POTUS could be enough to declass).
That EO definitely governs non-POTUS, absolutely. But for current/future POTUS, I’m not so sure that’s true seeing that POTUS is *the* declass authority.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:44 am@695
I’m having a hard time finding to be honest, but I know it was AFTER the election, but before J6. The sheer number of J6 articles to sift through is immense.
I’ll try something else tonight.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/16/2023 @ 11:10 amsteveg (01b432) — 6/16/2023 @ 10:27 am
Well, he could have taken them upstairs to read, but never read them. You know, like some people do with newspapers and magazines. Or so the people around him thought.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/16/2023 @ 1:54 pm694. Rip Murdock (dd6105) — 6/16/2023 @ 8:12 am
What would most likely happen is that the Democrats will find some excuse to not deprive New Hampshire of its votes in the Democratic convention (maybe give it half) and not to hold a caucus (they are really down on caucuses since Obama used them to beat Hillary)
Jooe Biden may not officially enter the New Hampshire primary, nor campaign there, but he will (lightly) encourage a write-in.
He will still most likely beat RFK Jr, but if RFL Jr gets 25% to 40% of the vote, it will be discounted.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:00 pm652
It was a U.S Attorney who was in charge of that, but how could they get them from Zlochevsky?
Maybe if they paid him $30 million, but you’d get fake tapes.
These tapes are like one Steele reported.
IF Zlochevsky even really claimed he had them
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:15 pm