Patterico's Pontifications

5/9/2023

Jury Finds Trump Liable For Sexual Abuse, Not Rape

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:01 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The verdict:

A New York jury on Tuesday found former President Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing writer E. Jean Carroll in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s, but not liable for her alleged rape.

The jury awarded her $5 million in damages for her battery and defamation claims.

Asked on their verdict sheet if Carroll, 79, had proven “by a preponderance of the evidence” that “Mr. Trump raped Ms. Carroll,” the nine-person jury checked the box that said “no.” Asked if Carroll had proven “by a preponderance of the evidence” that “Mr. Trump sexually abused Ms. Carroll,” the jury checked the box that said “yes.” Both allegations were elements of Carroll’s battery claim.

The six men and three women also found Trump had defamed her by calling her claims a “hoax” and “a con job.”

Trump reacts to the verdict:

Question: Does CNN rethink hosting its Trump forum tomorrow night in light of the leading Republican candidate, who has already been proven unfit for office, and now found liable for sexual abuse, or do they stay the course for ratings gold? Pretty sure we already know the answer.

–Dana

92 Responses to “Jury Finds Trump Liable For Sexual Abuse, Not Rape”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (560c99)

  2. Does CNN rethink hosting its Trump forum tomorrow night in light of the leading Republican candidate already proven to be unfit for office and now found guilty of sexual abuse, or do they stay the course for ratings gold? Pretty sure we already know the answer.

    Alternatively, does Trump go ahead with the town hall knowing he will be questioned (multiple times) about it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. I edited my above comment a little in the post for a smoother read.

    Dana (560c99)

  4. @3. Hope you’re feeling better, Dana. Take it easy.

    ______

    Not guilty of rape. Too bad she waited 20 years for the political hit… Kavanaugh will have a beer or ten tongiht… a similar bullet didged.

    But Americans do love their b-a-a-a-a-d boys. Watch when Trump’s poll numbers spike.

    … and JR Ewing smiled.

    DCSCA (926343)

  5. DCSCA — I don’t see his numbers spiking. Rather they will remain pretty steady. They spiked with the indictment in New York. (Which I think was the intent — Trump being perceived as the weakest the GOP has to offer.)

    I hope the plaintiff gets paid well. She isn’t going to get any other satisfaction out of this.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  6. We are all so very screwed.

    Simon Jester (ca4340)

  7. P.S. I hope you are feeling better, healthwise, Dana.

    I am shaking my head about the state of the health of our nation, however.

    And I am saddened by some of the comments here, of course.

    Simon Jester (ca4340)

  8. Trump Before the Verdict:

    On the cusp of jury deliberations, former President Donald Trump lied on Truth Social that he was “not allowed to speak or defend” himself in E. Jean Carroll’s civil rape case.

    “Waiting for a jury decision on a False Accusation where I, despite being a current political candidate and leading all others in both parties, am not allowed to speak or defend myself, even as hard nosed reporters scream questions about this case at me,” Trump falsely claimed on Tuesday morning. “In the meantime, the other side has a book falsely accusing me of Rape, & is working with the press.”

    In fact, Trump declined multiple attempts to testify live that were offered to him by a federal judge.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  9. A slight paraphrase of a great commercial:

    “There is a witch in the woods. For some people, the witch is easy to see. Others don’t see it at all. Some people say the witch is benign. Others say it’s vicious and dangerous. Since no one can really be sure who’s right, isn’t it smart to hunt the witch? If there is a witch.”

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  10. @5. It’s only been a few hours. Wait and see… the Access Hollywood tape didn’t torpedo him in 2016 when it would have sunk anybopdy. [Then again, p[;agiarism should have sunk Biden but the press gave him a pass] — and again, more people voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016. So populism remains at a boil. His ‘Bad Boy’ image is baked in– and this is in character, tinged as a political hit today. To many, a ‘Notorious Donald’ will keep Xi and Vlad on their toes and spook NorKo to boot. It’s a civil case, not criminal; only money. Thing is, if Carroll was so distressed, she should have filed rape charge 20 years ago, too… which only makes it look more political than a pursuit of justice. If only she’d ‘shot JR’ on Fifth Avenue… 😉

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  11. @9. Classic Hal Riney. An advertising icon from the golden age of BBDO and Ogilvy greatness.

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  12. @6

    We are all so very screwed.

    Simon Jester (ca4340) — 5/9/2023 @ 1:48 pm

    :'(

    I pray that Trump loses the primary. Bigly.

    whembly (d116f3)

  13. I get the defamation claim.

    But I’m not sure how to square this…

    How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    So they believed HALF HER STORY and agreed she was lying about the rest?

    o.O

    Trump certainly didn’t do himself any favors in this court/jury with his flippant deposition. That’s on him.

    whembly (d116f3)

  14. “I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHO THIS WOMAN IS. THIS VERDICT IS A DISGRACE – A CONTINUATION OF THE GREATEST WITCH HUNT OF ALL TIME!”

    There was this little boy who liked to cry “wolf”…

    norcal (15fce4)

  15. How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    whembly (d116f3) — 5/9/2023 @ 3:04 pm

    They found that Trump couldn’t keep it up. 😉

    norcal (15fce4)

  16. Trump was found not guilty of rape but guilty for denying it. The jury awarded money to the false accuser.

    If only George Orwell could have seen this.

    BTW I despise Trump and want him to go away.

    DN (1b635a)

  17. In other court news today, George Santos has been criminally charged by DOJ, but they’re under seal for now.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  18. I’m looking forward to Trump defaming Carroll again on national television. He can’t help himself.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  19. The situation is impossible. How does one determine the truth? But the standard is more likely than not.

    They determined it was more improbable that she was making it up, than that the alleged incident happened as claimed in spite of the fact that it supposedly took place in a store where anybody could go..it would have been like Trump knew the store and what went on there.

    They just determined that to say she was lying was more improbable than that Trump had done it although both versions of events were improbable. Her two witnesses who claimed she told them (separately) about then that something happened were crucial, because now to say otherwise you have to allege a conspiracy and Trump could not show that the two witnesses were lying. Trump also did not find anyone who said she had been asked to lie or any proof it was wrong. While he did find a little indication that it might have been cooked up, it was unclear.

    This specific verdict (that it was not rape) was probably based on her not reacting too much, and one of her witnesses saying that she told her that she was raped — indicating doubt as to what it was.

    It would help to know more about the testimony.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  20. Republican senators react to verdict in Trump’s case

    Republican Party leaders are coming to terms with the fact that the leading candidate to be their next presidential nominee was just found guilty of sexually assaulting and defaming a woman in a Manhattan clothing store.

    Should Trump be the party’s presidential nominee? Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) told reporters, “That’s a choice that the voters will make.” Hawley went on to say that he also thought that Trump will be the party’s nominee.

    But when asked if he, personally, felt Trump should be the nominee, in light of the allegations and verdict in this case, he said, “Well, I’ve said that I will support the nominee of the party.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. More:

    ……..Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel told Fox News, “People vote based on what’s happening in their lives” and want to “move on” from this type of news. Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.) told CBS, “I don’t think he can get elected.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  22. It was claimed that that Trump was lying in the Access Hollywood tape about women letting him do things to them but not about doing it – well he actually only claimed that he kissed them by surprise.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  23. How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    Time. Waiting 20-plus years to ‘cry rape’ makes her motives somewhat suspect. [Pop a sixth brewski, Kavanaugh!] Who lets themselves endure that personal torture for over two decades then decides it’s time to ‘get her life back.’ The political stench is ovewrwhelming. But it won’t take him out of the race.

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  24. More II:

    The sharpest criticism of Donald Trump so far has come from Asa Hutchinson, the former governor of Arkansas who is one of the people challenging Trump for the Republican presidential nomination. In a statement, Hutchinson said the verdict “should be treated with seriousness and is another example of the indefensible behavior of Donald Trump.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  25. Explaining the verdict and the $5 million in damages
    ……….
    The jurors did not find that Trump had raped Carroll, which she has contended for nearly four years.

    But the jurors concluded that Trump sexually abused her and that she was injured as a result. They awarded Carroll $2 million in compensation for those injuries, along with $20,000 in punitive damages after also concluding that Trump’s actions were reckless.

    The jurors were also asked to consider whether Carroll generally convinced them that Trump defamed her with a statement he posted to social media last year, assailing her as a liar. Jurors agreed that Trump did so, awarding Carroll $1.7 million in damages for “reputational repair” and $1 million for other damages. They added another $280,000 in punitive damages after concluding that Trump acted recklessly here too.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  26. Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.) told CBS, “I don’t think he can get elected.”

    Memo to Johnny Boy: You don’t think, period. Don’t you have some dead Americans murdered in Texas to focus on, ‘senator?”

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  27. and now found guilty of sexual abuse

    Not found guilty, found liable for for denying it, and only that it was more likely than not that the assault happened, probably because E Jean Carroll had two witnesses who were not destroyed on cross examination.

    We may later find out who was telling the truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  28. In a statement, Hutchinson said the verdict “should be treated with seriousness and is another example of the indefensible behavior of Donald Trump.”

    Plagiarizing 2016 loser Ted Cruz, eh Asa.

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  29. Jury Verdict Form

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. Most of Trump’s rivals for the G.O.P. nomination avoid attacking him over the verdict.
    ……….
    Many of Mr. Trump’s rivals and potential rivals stayed quiet as news of the verdict spread, including Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida, Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina and former Gov. Nikki Haley of South Carolina.

    But Asa Hutchinson, a former governor of Arkansas and a longtime critic of Mr. Trump, was quick to seize the opposition mantle. He said that, as a former prosecutor, he had seen “firsthand how a cavalier and arrogant contempt for the rule of law can backfire.”
    ………
    “I’ll say what everyone else is privately thinking: If the defendant weren’t named Donald Trump, would there even be a lawsuit?” (Vivek) Ramaswamy said in a statement, citing the age of the allegation, which goes back to the 1990s, and other legal actions pending against the former president…….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  31. And why was she fired by a publication that was probably not aimed at people sympathetic to Trump?

    Did she change her story at any time after she first started claiming this? (and Trump’s lawyers fail to find that out)

    This has so many possible political motives (as well as economic) it is not a normal situation

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  32. How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    New York law gave jurors three types of battery to consider in the Trump case.

    Judge Lewis A. Kaplan on Monday morning walked jurors through a verdict form, explaining what battery meant in the context of a civil lawsuit and that there were gradations of that wrongful act.

    He offered three types of battery for which Mr. Trump might be liable under New York law: rape, sexual abuse and forcible touching.

    To find that Mr. Trump raped Ms. Carroll, the jurors needed to believe that it was more likely than not that Mr. Trump engaged in sexual intercourse by physical force. The judge explained that “any penetration of the penis into the vaginal opening” constituted intercourse.

    To find that Mr. Trump sexually abused Ms. Carroll, the jurors needed to believe that Mr. Trump subjected Ms. Carroll to sexual contact by physical force. Sexual contact is defined as touching the sexual or other intimate parts of another person, Judge Kaplan said.

    Forcible touching, the judge said, “includes squeezing, grabbing, pinching, rubbing or other bodily contact that involves the application of some level of pressure to the victim’s sexual or intimate parts.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. @26. Thank you for reminding me about the filter.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  34. Enough is enough. Or at least you would think so. Satan has Trump’s soul, but why does everyone else think they should toss theirs in, too.

    The candidates need to form a common response to this piece of dreck.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  35. In other court news today, George Santos has been criminally charged by DOJ, but they’re under seal for now.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 5/9/2023 @ 4:17 pm

    McCarthy is staring at the short end of stick. He can’t afford to lose another Republican.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. @33. You’re welcome, considering he’s quick to comment on Trump while Texas authorities remain mum on the slaughterfest in his state.

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  37. @34. Enough is enough. Or at least you would think so. Satan has Trump’s soul, but why does everyone else think they should toss theirs in, too. The candidates need to form a common response to this piece of dreck.

    ROFLMAO– just like 2016 Ted Cruz and Little Marco, eh… both now so far up Trump’s tail, The Donald could claim he’s being gang raped!

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  38. List of federal political sex scandals in the United States

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States

    DCSCA (77e1e7)

  39. The candidates need to form a common response to this piece of dreck.

    Kevin M (f94f4f) — 5/9/2023 @ 4:55 pm

    If you look at the Republican candidates as being a spectrum with Trump at one end and Hutchinson at the other, they all gravitate toward Trump. DeSantis and Vivek are closer in politics to Trump, and Darling Nikki wants to be Trump’s VP, so she won’t be saying anything negative. Hutch is all by his lonesome.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  40. The thing is, that Trump wants everything to be about Trump.

    Look a the pussy-grabbing tape, for example. He could have said that there are women who let men paw them in order to advance their careers in Hollywood.

    But no! It had to be about him. They let him paw them because he’s a star.

    And the thing about wanting everything to be about you is that everything about you better be able to withstand scrutiny. Which MacSitzpinkler does not.

    nk (bb1548)

  41. This is just the beginning of a whole new world of lawfare against candidates, office holders, judges etc.
    No one is squeaky clean and they will all get the Eric Greitens treatment. The St Louis Circuit didn”t go after him because he was a bad guy, they went after him because of his politics and lied to make a better case and still lost. Trumps is not a good person, but this never would have gone anywhere in Tulsa

    steveg (08310c)

  42. He Needs the Vote:

    ………
    While several House Republicans continued calls for Santos to resign after CNN broke the news that Santos, who lied about much of his resume during the campaign, had been criminally charged, McCarthy did not call for his resignation and instead opted to let the justice system play out.

    “In America, you’re innocent until proven guilty,” McCarthy said at a press conference.

    But, if Santos is found guilty, McCarthy will call for Santos to resign. McCarthy said he was unaware of the charges against Santos until he left the White House late this afternoon.
    ………
    “We’ll just follow the same pattern we always have,” McCarthy said. “If a person is indicted, they’re not on committees, they have the right to vote, but they have to go to trial.”
    ………
    The speaker did not answer a question about former President Donald Trump being found liable by a jury for sexually abusing and defaming writer E. Jean Carroll in a civil trial. Trump was ordered to pay her $5 million.
    ###########

    Of course Santos isn’t on any committees, so that point is moot.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. steveg (08310c) — 5/9/2023 @ 5:38 pm

    Do you believe that is what is happening to George Santos?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  44. If only there were a way to capitalize capital letters, I’m sure Trump would use it.

    He missed his calling. He should have been a pro wrestler.

    norcal (15fce4)

  45. The people who care don’t matter to trump and the people who matter to trump don’t care.

    asset (ee30dd)

  46. McCarthy is right about Santos. Santos is entitled to trial by due process. Not trial by news media.

    nk (bb1548)

  47. FWIW, here’s what the Loser’s first wife claimed, under oath:

    Trump’s first wife, Ivana, whom he was married to from 1977 until 1991, alleged in a 1989 deposition that she had been raped by her spouse. Though she made the claim while under oath in court, the former fashion model, now 67, backtracked on her claim.

    And then retracted, sort of.

    Skeptics will wonder about her motives both under oath, and later. Under oath she may have been trying for a bigger settlement; later she may have been hoping for bigger inheritances for her kids.

    Jim Miller (0e46f9)

  48. So they believed HALF HER STORY and agreed she was lying about the rest?

    whembly (d116f3) — 5/9/2023 @ 3:04 pm

    All we have are the jury’s findings, and there’s no basis in those findings for that conclusion. Failing to find by a preponderance of the evidence that he raped her isn’t remotely the same as finding that half her story was a lie.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  49. Trump’s doing a NH Town Hall on CNN Wed., night so we can see how he plans to field this 24 hours after the verdicts…. assuming Collins asks about it… unless breaking news about The Joe Show takes over the news cycle.

    DCSCA (1bba31)

  50. I don’t think this will matter to anyone other than E. Jean Carroll. Most people already were pretty sure that Trump had probably placed unwelcome hands on women and everyone everyone knows that he defames people, it’s a feature, not a bug, for his voters.

    Maybe it might matter for women who used to read her advice column, but most women don’t like him much already.

    Nic (896fdf)

  51. @50. Yep.

    DCSCA (33b1fb)

  52. for twenty seven years I guess Ms. Carroll thought Trump was a Democrat

    JF (bd852a)

  53. JF (bd852a) — 5/9/2023 @ 7:40 pm

    That would have more resonance if Trump had been a Democrat holding office.

    norcal (15fce4)

  54. And I am saddened by some of the comments here, of course.

    Simon Jester (ca4340) — 5/9/2023 @ 1:56 pm

    Word. But I know you realize the humanity and probably deep loneliness that is at root of some of the trolling.

    Dustin (58f2f0)

  55. I don’t think this will matter to anyone other than E. Jean Carroll. Most people already were pretty sure that Trump had probably placed unwelcome hands on women and everyone everyone knows that he defames people, it’s a feature, not a bug, for his voters.

    Not here.

    Rip Murdock (479f9d)

  56. Rip regarding your question to me about George Santos, my answer is yes, there are times when full inspection is warranted, but also believe that politics are very much in play with Santos. I brought up Greitens. He cheated on his wife, that was a piece of S move on his part. But the Democrat machine lied and lied to try to turn that infidelity into a crime. what is next, a civil suit against Kavanaugh? It won’t go anywhere because Kavanaugh is too bright to defame an accuser, but I think this is going to be the next craze (y) in American politics. I blame Trump and myself a bit for my vote. I’d do it again given the choice, but the Democrats and Republicans gave me a choice of herpes D or Herpes R and now I need a pharmacist

    steveg (08310c)

  57. Dustin-
    This part of your comment resonated with me. Caused me to look into the mirror and instead of my face, saw a window into the worst part of me
    “I know you realize the humanity and probably deep loneliness that is at root of some of the trolling.”

    Thank you.

    You and Simon both struck a chord in me today, and that is good on you both

    steveg (08310c)

  58. Rip regarding your question to me about George Santos, my answer is yes, there are times when full inspection is warranted, but also believe that politics are very much in play with Santos.

    I think Santos’s prevarications brought the DOJ’s attention to himself. It will be interesting to see what the exact charges are tomorrow.

    Is the solution to give politicians a pass to avoid the appearance of a political prosecution by the opposite party?

    Rip Murdock (f90b1e)

  59. “… Her two witnesses who claimed she told them (separately) about then that something happened were crucial, because now to say otherwise you have to allege a conspiracy and Trump could not show that the two witnesses were lying. ..”

    You don’t have to allege a conspiracy, a defense scenario might be as follows. Long ago a troubled woman seeking something (attention? sympathy?) tells a made up story about Donald Trump to some friends. She is urged to go to the police but refuses because she fears the story won’t stand up. No one cares too much until Trump is elected President. Then political opponents of Trump push the story. At this point the passage of time has made the story hard to dispute.

    In general if you made a list of the Americans most likely to be falsely accused of something like this I expect Trump would be in the top ten.

    James B. Shearer (b259c8)

  60. @James@59 OTOH, if you made a list of the Americans most likely to be accurately accused of something like this, I expect Trump would be in the top 10 of that list as well. In addition, Trump made an ill conceived recorded statement that he did similar things and then, after saying she wasn’t his type, misidentified her as Marla Maples, who I think we all know definitely was his type.

    I would say that Trump is not the famous person in New York in the 90s who would’ve garnered the most attention with a fantasy sexual assault accusation. JFK jr would’ve been the right person for that. Trump has been gross for at least 30 years at this point.

    Nic (896fdf)

  61. @9 I could change the word witch to republican and you could to democrat. Still want to hunt?

    asset (ee30dd)

  62. Biden is under 36% of voters who think he is not senile. 30% of democrats prefer bobby kennady jr. or marianne williamson. If someone on the left gets in the democratic primaries with name recognition like AOC biden is toast. No one under 30 wants biden to run and few under 40. Anybody got a suggestion on who should run on the left besides AOC and bernie?

    asset (ee30dd)

  63. Biden is under 36% of voters who think he is not senile. 30% of democrats prefer bobby kennady jr. or marianne williamson.

    There’s an idea: Trump versus Marianne Williamson. One debate at Mar-a-Lago, one at Sedona.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  64. In general if you made a list of the Americans most likely to be falsely accused of something like this I expect Trump would be in the top ten.

    In general if you made a list of the Americans most likely to be guilty of something, I’d expect Trump to be at the top of the list.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  65. Thank you, Dustin and steveg. You are both quite correct.

    Simon Jester (ca4340)

  66. “I would say that Trump is not the famous person in New York in the 90s who would’ve garnered the most attention with a fantasy sexual assault accusation. …”

    The accusation didn’t make it into the legal process until after he was elected President and if he had never been elected (or run) I doubt it would have been pursued.

    James B. Shearer (b259c8)

  67. @14

    They found that Trump couldn’t keep it up. 😉

    norcal (15fce4) — 5/9/2023 @ 3:44 pm

    OMG norcal, literally spat out my coffee!

    Well done!

    whembly (d116f3)

  68. Hey, stars get to do what they want….for like a million years. So, suck it. I suspect that deposition might not have been as Rico Suave as the deposed might think.

    AJ_Liberty (6f3cdc)

  69. Trump doesn’t deserve sympathy, even if you think Carroll’s claim was all bs.

    The fact that Trump didn’t treat this case, judge and juries with any serious dignity likely poisoned the jury against him. He’s his worst enemy.

    whembly (d116f3)

  70. The jury did not need to find rape in order to grant the plaintiff full recovery, so my guess is that they did not want to waste their time like commenters on a blog, arguing endlessly “he did not hit her”, “he did not threaten her”, “he did not restrain her”, “he did not chase her when she ran away”, etc., etc., etc..

    nk (bb1548)

  71. Trump’s superpower is to fuse his sense of grievance with the sense of grievance of his voters. This is another chapter in a long ugly story. Whether this peels away some of his women voters, should they choose to think about it, is a question.

    Appalled (fe9221)

  72. 30+ yr-old accusations really strain due process. Still, it looks bad when your primary defense is, in effect, “she’s ugly and not my type”, then confusing her for your ex-wife Marla in a photo. The justice system shouldn’t be about good or bad karma, though simply believability plays into it. It you cultivate a certain reputation, it does follow you; however, I think matters like this should have a much tighter statue of limitations.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  73. I think matters like this should have a much tighter statue of limitations.

    They did. Generally, two years for personal injury. That’s why Carroll initially filed for defamation and not the assault itself. Then the New York city council extended the statute for sexual assault. Especially for Trump. And Carroll could join her personal injury claim to the defamation case.

    New York’s SLAPP statute, pathetic as it is (was?), is also due to Trump. Or Roy Cohn. They would sue people who objected to Trump’s real estate developments before the planning board, or zoning board, or housing authorities.

    nk (bb1548)

  74. I get the defamation claim.

    But I’m not sure how to square this…

    How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    So they believed HALF HER STORY and agreed she was lying about the rest?

    Boy, do I have some news for you when it comes to appellate review of criminal cases and inconsistent verdicts. There’s plenty of people who will be in jail for the rest of their lives notwithstanding completely inconsistent and nonsensical verdicts.

    (Short answer: consistency isn’t required because jurors can decide, for example, that leniency or mercy is warranted).

    JohnnyAgreeable (6824f0)

  75. nk (bb1548) — 5/10/2023 @ 7:39 am

    f. Then the New York city council extended the statute for sexual assault.

    The New York State legislature. It created a 1-year window for old cases (plus putting the statute of limitations permanently at 5 years after a person’s 18th birthday for allegations about something that took place before a person was 18 years old. I’m actually not quite clear on what was civil or criminal, but for this lawsuit there was a special one year window created.

    Especially for Trump.

    Possibly, behind the scenes but it wasn’t advertised that way I think.

    The Wall Street Journal main editorial today says.Carroll was “coaxed to file a civil lawsuit by longtime opponents of Mr. Trump, including lawyer George Conway” and that it was financed by LinkedIN founder Reid Hoffman who is a longtime Trump opponent.

    That doesn’t indicate, by itself, that any of the testimony was perjured, but this was almost cookie cutter: Allegation backed up only by witnesses who were allegedly told the story contemporaneously, and some similar allegations (booth of which I have thought were untrue – I think there’s even a question about whether Braniff had such a flight in 1979)

    Sammy Finkelnan (ef91cc)

  76. “That’s why Carroll initially filed for defamation”

    It all seems like a backdoor way to litigate the assault. Make a public claim of rape which will inevitably draw a reaction from Trump, but almost more importantly, from Trump world…which creates the defamation harm. Not at all to defend Trump, but it seems implausible that he would not respond publicly to the accusation when specifically asked. Of course calling her a whack job might not have been in his best interest…

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  77. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 5/10/2023 @ 7:28 am

    Still, it looks bad when your primary defense is, in effect, “she’s ugly and not my type”, then confusing her for your ex-wife Marla in a photo.

    Also that he didn’t know her (which Trump keeps saying in the present tense) because E. Jean Carroll says it started when Trump was leaving the store and she was entering it and he recognized her, and asked her to help choose a gift for a female friend. She also says she expected to get Trump to try on women’s lingerie.

    Trump also seems to have described an interview that Carroll had on CNN incorrectly, albeit he qualified.

    I think she said that rape was sexy–which it’s not, by the way. But I think she said that rrape was sexy, and it was–she actually said things that were very strange, and then she was a different person after the

    commercial break.

    Sammy Finkelnan (ef91cc)

  78. Only gold-diggers who tell him they love him and that he’s a great lover for cold hard cash are Trump’s type. He’s probably never had a woman who was not store-bought. Even as a teenager, his daddy would hire escorts to go out with him.

    nk (bb1548)

  79. There was also the question of why she saved the alleged dress she was allegedly wearing at the time , which she says she never wore again, but it apparently had nothing on it. Trump initially opposed, but them too late, probably in an effort to delay the trial, asked for testing.

    https://www.newsweek.com/will-e-jean-carrolls-dress-revealed-trumps-deposition-1753240

    Sammy Finkelnan (b048d2)

  80. Trump’s been trying to say the jury came from the most anti-Trump area. But this was a lawsuit filed in federal court, and most of the jury was from Westchester. (How did this get into federal court? Diversity jurisdiction?)

    Sammy Finkelnan (b048d2)

  81. @41. Institutional betrayal; the DOJ: corrupt; the SCOTUS, wholly politicized; the rule of law: dead.

    39 years ago, a KGB defector chillingly predicted modern America

    https://bigthink.com/the-present/yuri-bezmenov/

    … and Putin smiled; Xi merely grinned… as the Eurasian Alliance with New World Order marching orders rolls on.

    DCSCA (f71000)

  82. Nic (896fdf) — 5/9/2023 @ 9:19 pm

    I would say that Trump is not the famous person in New York in the 90s who would’ve garnered the most attention with a fantasy sexual assault accusation. JFK jr would’ve been the right person for that.

    It depends on the age of the person making the accusation. E. Jean Carroll is now 79, (born in 1943) about three years older than Donald Trump.

    JFK Jr was born in November, 1960 and would have been about 35 years old to her 52 at the time and Trump’s 49. Trump’s promiscuity, which caused his divorce, had been written about since around 1987.

    This event, according to E. Jean Carroll, took place on a Thursday (which was the day of the week Bergdorf Goodman was open late, it seems) between I think November 1995 and the spring of 1996 – thus 27 to 28 years ago.

    he story depends on Trump knowing the 6th floor was usually empty of customers and sales clerks at that time – or E. Jean Carroll knowing that.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  83. Not at all to defend Trump, but it seems implausible that he would not respond publicly to the accusation when specifically asked. Of course calling her a whack job might not have been in his best interest…

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 5/10/2023 @ 8:26 am

    A lying, ugly whack job.

    The implausibility of restraining himself from defaming someone who accuses him of the kind of assault he proudly admits to in the Access Hollywood tape is an ironic twist for someone who wants to weaken the constitutional barriers to defamation suits.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  84. I have to say that Donald Trump is a gift to thriller writers everywhere. In the past they had to treat high government officials has being sane and thoughtful. Now, nearly anything works.

    Movie people, too. No longer do they have to find an E.G. Marshall type to play a mythical president. Not even Marin Sheen. Charlie will do just fine.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  85. THIS VERDICT IS A DISGRACE

    It is actually.

    “I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means”
    — Inigo Montoya

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  86. Google “Sherman Adams”

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  87. Ooops, wrong thread

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  88. whembly (d116f3) — 5/10/2023 @ 6:04 am

    Thanks, whembly. I was wondering if readers would understand the joke.

    norcal (15fce4)

  89. How could the jury find Trump liable for sexually abusing and forcibly touching Carroll but NOT for rape?

    Because she testified with certainty that he penetrated her with his fingers but she was not certain whether he also penetrated her with his penis.

    DRJ (fda1b5)

  90. @83. … and Joan Crawford smiled… as Kavanaugh popped another cold one.

    DCSCA (ba5f86)

  91. And now, a word from French Whine Country:

    “I hope the jury of the American people reach the same conclusion about Donald Trump… He just is not suited to be president of the United States and to be the person who we hold up to our children and the world as the leader of the free world.”- Pierre Delecto.

    So tell us, Lucky Pierre, where are your suits made?

    DCSCA (ba5f86)

  92. Dustin-
    This part of your comment resonated with me. Caused me to look into the mirror and instead of my face, saw a window into the worst part of me
    “I know you realize the humanity and probably deep loneliness that is at root of some of the trolling.”

    Thank you.

    You and Simon both struck a chord in me today, and that is good on you both

    steveg (08310c) — 5/9/2023 @ 8:39 pm

    Hey, same here my friend. We all have the dark side in us, we all need validation, we all are capable of being stupid or evil. That’s what makes patience or kindness so good. It’s totally optional, as is introspection. I try not to judge, but everyone who comments here knows how often I fail. All we know about eachother are our words on eachothers’ screens, and that’s not who any of us actually are.

    Dustin (671a82)

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